# Social Category > South African Politics Forum >  Unashamedly Ethical

## gac

Edmund Burke, a wise and respected Irish Political philospher said "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing".

If, like me, you're deeply concerned about the state our beloved Country and the world for that matter then please consider joining me in "doing something" by signing up for a great cause with good intention.

Visit  http://www.unashamedlyethical.com  :Helpsmilie:

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## Blurock

You have my full support. How can we criticise government if our own businesses are not clean?  :Wink:

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gac (12-Nov-12)

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## adrianh

Peope sure are strange; they have to sign something, stick a fish on the back of their car, wear a cross, sit in a church, wear a tshirt, grow a movember to show the world that they; do, or believe something or the other. 

Why don't people just get the hell on with whatever it is they want to do and not flaunt the fact that they are doing it.

People seem to be incapable of doing things or believe in things unless they flaunt it in everybody's faces like a new Gucci handbag.

I don't support anything where I have to run around proving to the world that I do it. If I want to do something I just do it!

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## Justloadit

It could be that they want to be seen to be doing it but are not doing it.

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## gac

I respect you personal views adrianh, we all retain the right to choose what we do or don't do. I also agree in part with your sticker/badge comment given I don't like wearing all the "badges" and don't. However I think Burke made a very valid comment and also beleive that as individuals there is a limit to what common purpose can be achieved.

Nobody can claim to be perfect, or in this case to be 100% Unashamedly Ethical, however my feelings are that this is a very good cause with good social intention at its core and provides some hope in attempting to confront the massive challenges we are facing at the current time. Therefore I feel its worth promoting and giving a shot.

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## adrianh

Nobody says it better than NIKE

Just do it.

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## Mike C

I agree with you Adrianh - I suspect, however, that some people need (or like) to feel that they are not alone in their stance ... and maybe this helps them support one another.  If signing up helps them make a more determined stand to be ethical, I am all for it.

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gac (12-Nov-12)

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## Blurock

Sometimes much more can be achieved by collective action than by just sitting in your cave and criticising the world and those that live in it. A negative attitude has never ever achieved anything.

I am not one for collecting badges and t-shirts. I also see no purpose in joining a fun run or signing a petition, but if it is a worthy cause that calls for a specific action (not just singing along) I have no problem in supporting such a cause.

Corruption in business and especially in government is becoming a serious problem. It is a scourge affecting every level of society and is affecting each and every one of us. People are losing their moral fibre and something aught to be done about it. I think it is a good idea that gac raised and I am perturbed that some Forum members are so negative about something so important.

If you think it is O>K> to carry on as if there is no consequence its your choice, but then do not come and cry if that consequence is at your expense. :Batman:

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gac (12-Nov-12)

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## adrianh

Its not a question of being negative, I'm not negative, I just don't like joining a cause to get a T-Shirt. Like I said, if people want to do it then they must just get on with it.

The next thing people are going to wear little badges that say that they didn't have pre-marital sex or a little badge that says that they brush their teeth or a sticker that tells the entire world that they are gay (Damn, they actually do that in Cape Town already to advertise to one another)

You see, the point that I am making is that one does not have to join a campaign to do something or believe in something, you simply need to do it.

The problem is that people have F_ALL willpower, they have to join weighless to drive them to lose weight or AA to stop drinking or go to group therapy to stop smoking....what for, because they are unable to JUST DO IT.

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## Blurock

@adrianh, You do not have to run up to every street choir to tell them that they are stupid for singing in the choir. Nobody asked you to join. If don't agree with them it is fine. Just pass by and leave the folks to sing if they want to. 

Maybe you should make yourself a badge to say "I do not wear badges".

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## gac

As I said before I respect individual views but before you write this off as just another useless cause please visit their website and take a look. If your view remains what it is, then so be it.

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## adrianh

Ou broer: I DON'T GIVE A $h1t about all claptrap. I will be filthy rich one way or another.

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## Blurock

*Ethics and Business Conduct*

Doing what is right because it is the right thing to do should be the foundation of business culture. Business objectives should never be solely to comply with the law, but to abide by the highest principles of integrity and concern for others.

A companys reputation for high legal and ethical standards is one of the greatest business assets. Integrity must never be sacrificed to achieve business objectives.

*A business that makes nothing but money is a poor kind of business Henry Ford.*

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## adrianh

The only reason for doing business is to make money.

I want a really huge 'poor kind of business' then. Cool, I'll be perfectly happy with that.

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## gac

adrianh good luck to you my friend. Why go to all the trouble of all this type of correspondence purely to tell the world you don't give a "S..t". Maybe it would be far easier to just stick to doing it your Lone Ranger way and save yourself, and the rest of us that do give a "S..t", the hassle.

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## adrianh

Good one...now why in the world would I keep my views secret. You don't like views that don't agree with yours, hey. Nah, you clearly don't understand how 'I don't give a $h1t' works, it is a wonderful outlook that ensures that one is always happy no matter what happens.

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## wynn

This is the rule!!!! OK?

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## Blurock

Not giving s#it is maybe the reason for the high rate of corruption our country. As long as I am OK and getting away with whatever goes, I am OK. 

I pay higher taxes so that Zoom Zoom can build himself a palace. I pay higher rates so that municipal officials can start a tender business. People who want to make a difference get criticized for doing something. They get disheartened by the apathy and lazy attitude of the fat cat majority.

If you want change, it starts with you.

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## adrianh

Aye, you know what, the problem in life is that people just want to hear what they want to hear. As long as one agrees with whatever is said then all is ok...well you know what: F..that. I don't make out as if I am towing the party line. if you want me to agree with what you say it ain't going to happen and further, you need to understand that I don't piss you off, your own mind pisses you off for all in life is perception, nothing less and nothing more. I am unable to make you do anything, you choose to get pissed off and you choose to be annoyed by my views, my views are mine, take them, leave them, I couldn't care less, why do you?

I don't give a royal rats left nut for change, for politics, for the masses or for any of that crap. I couldn't care less who does what, I do what I want, I believe what I want and I live my life as I want. My mind is free and my spirit is free, if the dumba$$es want to run around like rats going round and round the great circle that they created for their own little rat race then they must knock themselves out, I just sit by and laugh at them.

At the end of the day its all p1$$ & paint (make up to make it all look nice) - people run around chasing some or other horse crap ideal, for what, there was a time when wars were fought, when discoveries were made, when what we we did mattered, today it is all about the buck, who makes the money, who keeps the money, who spends the money and who wastes the money. We waste our lives on chasing the big house and the big car, for what, to be able to show Johnny next door that we have that new plastic thing that will last for the next 2 years only to be replaced by the next piece of crap plastic thing...

F...it, I couldn't care less, I want a good woman who I can worship, cherish, love and adore, I want art, beauty, style, class, music, gardens and sunsets on the beach...give me an island where I can wallow in all things wonderful...

My view is very simple: F...IT...

You don't have to fight with me because you ain't going to convice me otherwise, the best is just to leave me to live in my own mental world where all those ideals are possible, where reality doesn't intrude, where the perfect woman is, where the sunset is perfect and the masses are living in Atlantis...

As  Darkangelyaya says:

"There is none as dangerous as the one with nothing to lose" 

This lady rocks because she knows that the only moment is NOW...

: I don't actually give royal continental f_ck

You need to live today because you could be under a truck tomorrow.

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## Blurock

@adrianh, so if you don't give a royal continental then why do you even bother to make a stupid comment and try to dissuade the people that do care?

If you are so happy in your little world, why get offended by other people? Why not just leave them to do what makes them happy? :Confused:

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## adrianh

Touche, it makes me happy to tell other people what makes my happy.

Why does what makes me happy offend you so?

Why should I leave them to do what makes them happy, it gives me great pleasure to upset them, to make them think about the rubbish that they believe. Why do they get upset, if they truly believe in what they say them they would be able to defend it without having to wave a sharp pointy stick each time I question their views.

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## Dave A

Having had more than enough exposure to just how subjective "fair" and "unfair" perceptions can be, and the incredible ability for humans to rationalise their every action, I do have some empathy for Adrian's point of view.

It may seem extreme, but it's honest, transparent, and you know exactly where you stand.

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Chrisjan B (14-Nov-12)

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## gac

Whilst I respect the right to an opinion, adrianh seems to go extraordinary lengths to drop his opinion on what, in this case, is an invitation to like minded people to consider supporting a good cause. Just why he chooses to dump his take in the manner he does is hard to understand and frankly borders on the offensive.

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## adrianh

My dear friend, I do not offend you, you are offended by your perception of my view. Why does my view offend you, its my view and its my perogative, why should I only express a view that suits you. You need to realize that the world is a big place and your view is one of many, I am not offended by your view, to the contrary, it is your view and it belongs to you, who am I to change it.

You need to understand that we all hold different views, I believe in The Chuch of the Flying Spagetti Monster and that is my right, if you want to believe in Christianity or whatever then that is your right. You see, I don't mind whatever view you hold and you shouldn't mind whatever view I hold, and anyway, why do you care, I am just a teeny weeny speck of not much at all roving about this great planet. You want to spend your time convincing me that your view is better than mine, that's fine. I've got all the time in the world to go round and round debating the issue, for as you see, I  am having fun, I am listening to Queen, drinking a beer, doing 3D modelling and just contenplating life the universe and everything...and its great...

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## gac

I'm not trying to convince you at all or change your view, what makes you think that? Gotta watch those misguided perceptions you instruct me about fella. If you go back to the start of this thread it was an Invitation to like minded people and clearly we carry different views, which is totally acceptable.  If you wish to believe in the Church of the FSM you'e quite entitled to it and I have no intention of persuading you otherwise.

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Blurock (14-Nov-12)

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## adrianh

Cool, then we are on the same page.

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## Mike C

@ adrian - I enjoy the way you think.  It boggles my mind sometimes, but it does challenge my own thinking.  What I want to ask is what you think of the quote in the original posting.




> Edmund Burke, a wise and respected Irish Political philospher said "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing".


If we all didn't care a hoot, would we not be surrendering ourselves to either anarchy or domination.  In other words, lets say the Govt decided that they were entitled to take your home from you ... would you still not care, or would you like to fight back and have the support of others who would also fight an injustice?

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## adrianh

The question is this: What is worth fighting for?

Would you strap a bomb to your body and blow up a car, would you sell everything you own and give it to the poor, would you take a 50% cut in salary to provide an inclome for the poor? 

You see, the problem is that we are only willing to fight for that which we consider to be convenient. People will only lose weight if they can do so provided that it is convenient....have you ever seen an obese person in a concentration camp?

Now, I think that one needs to choose your battles, if some feel that p1$$1ng against the wind with 50 other people is the thing to do then good for them but it is no way to wage a war. Those 50 people are not fighting a battle, all that they are doing is pinning a little flag to a mast and running about telling everybody about the flag. The point that noboby gets is that the flag is not important, you don't need to wave the flag for everybody to see, all you need to do is to do whatever it is you believe in.

To get back to not caring any less, well you know, there are hundreds of thousands of people who are better educated, resourced and influential than I will ever be. They spent many years learning and earning in the search of truth, justice, money and all that stuff. They are responsible for the things that they are responsible for and they must just get on with it. When I go to see a doctor to get a operation I don't worry about it or question the doctor on whether he washes his hands, I don't care, because I trust that he will do what he is supposed to. I do what I sense is appropriate and I couldn't care less for anything else.

I am not going to wind myself up about the sillyness that the government gets up to and I am not going to run around waving a flag saying that I am getting wound up about it. I will continue to lead my life in my own way and make my own path up my own mountain....and you know what, I am going to collect all the cheese that I can find along the way. Nobody gets to move my cheese, It's mine to do with as I please.

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## Mike C

Adrian, I think that you have wriggled out of answering the question by posing another question and answering that one instead - are you a politician perhaps.   :Big Grin: 

There is something within me that admires (even desires) your "I don't care attitude", but there is also something within me (call it a social concience or even "guilt" if you will) that says that we need to care for others around us.

The message of the "poem" by Martin Niemoller (in all its variations) has always bothered me ...

    First they came for the communists,
    and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a communist.

    Then they came for the socialists,
    and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a socialist.

    Then they came for the trade unionists,
    and I didn't speak out because I wasn't a trade unionist.

    Then they came for me,
    and there was no one left to speak for me.

Perhaps it could be that I would hate to be left to fight alone and so these words "manipulate" me into fighting the fight for others, but it also stirs up a sense of duty in me making we want to add my voice to those who are fighting for (what I believe to be) right and just.

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Blurock (15-Nov-12), gac (14-Nov-12)

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## Blurock

@adrianh, if you don't give a s#it, why then do you go to such lengths to explain your position? Why do you always have to make a point and get into verbal fights with other Forum members? (your rants against tec0 and others are well recorded).

Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. A difference of opinion encourages debate, because we do sometimes realise that we have not considered the other side of the coin. By belittling other members and their opinions, we are not adding to the debate, we are only inviting confrontation.

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gac (14-Nov-12)

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## adrianh

I'm already trying to juggle 1000's of balls in the air, I sure as hell ain't going to worry about balls that are way out of my control.

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## Dave A

Scraps seem to go with "extreme" and "strongly held" views.
This may seem to be a bad thing, but I often find it's taking the time to understand those strong views that provide the greatest insights.

For example, on this unashamedly ethical concept, I've been having a hard time putting my finger on exactly what my reservations are. But I know what it is now...

The great destroyer of corruption is not going to be all and sundry signing up, declaring and advertising that they're ethical. The killer of corruption is transparency.

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Blurock (15-Nov-12), Chrisjan B (14-Nov-12)

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## ians

The only way to get transparency is if enough people standing together to make the change. If you do nothing, nothing will change. 

One thing i have learnt about change, sending emails and complaining on social networks from the comfort of your office chair or lounge suite or bed for that matter, doesnt make change, you actually have to get out of your comfort zone and make it happen.

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Blurock (15-Nov-12), gac (14-Nov-12)

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## Pap_sak

Lot's of organisations have clout because of the amount of members they have. It's doesn't mean all those members are active. Putting stickers on cars, as an example, gives awareness - just like advertising, think of the Think Bike campaign.

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## ians

Honestly, do you really think a sticker "think bike" makes a difference to people driving cars? people dont even think car and there are hundreds of them all around all day long. do you think if we put a sticker on our cars " dont text while driving" it would reduce the amount of people texting while driving? i was driving next to a person texting on the N2 yesterday  driving at 120 km/hr and i got my passenger to count how long the person watched the road and how much time they spent reading and texting,  ..... you would be amazed at how little time you only need to watch the road while texting. I cant do it maybe it is a women thing, multi tasking and all, i battle to find phone numbers, never mind typing especially without my glasses. I need to get one of those voice activated phone books setup on my phone, only problem what if i am talking about my girlfriend and my wife at the same time and it calls one of them....eeeeeish   :Oops:

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## gac

Dont let it bother you Blurock. Some folks just simply believe that their perspective is the only one and can't help themselves in attacking what others do or dumping down on alternatives views. Sadly, even though they may have some valid points it gets drowned out in the noise they make. Quite simply there are folks who have a narrow blinkered view of things, just let it slide by.

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## gac

I'm kinda prepared to believe that if something disturbs me enough that a good start would be to make a moral stand on it. I just happen to agree with adrianh that no flags, no T-shirts, no bumper stickers etc will create a change but I have to admit it might ll create an awareness. Personally I'm not a flag/t-shirt/sticker guy but I accept that others might find comfort in it for whatever reason they see fit. 

In this particular case, what might "make it happen" be?  I'm all ears.

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## gac

> Scraps seem to go with "extreme" and "strongly held" views.
> The great destroyer of corruption is not going to be all and sundry signing up, declaring and advertising that they're ethical. The killer of corruption is transparency.


Achieved exactly how?

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## Citizen X

> Achieved exactly how?


 :Offtopic: Ethics: The concept of the greater good: A legal perspectiv“Utilitarianism may be considered as one of a number of outcomes or purpose-oriented or teleologi- cal theories of ethics. The basic idea behind teleological theories of ethics is that, ultimately, the only thing that is relevant in determining whether or not an action is right or wrong is the purpose which the action is intended to achieve. Here, purpose is understood in the sense of end-result or consequence. Hence, teleological ethical theories are often called *consequentialist*.   _M__oral judgment in the case of utilitarianism boils down to the decision whether or not a given result is useful. A useful result is one that induces and promotes the greatest happiness of the greatest number in society_
A dictator who is holding 20 prisoners captive gives Jim the following choice: he must kill one of the prisoners, or the dictator will kill all 20 of them. If Jim kills one prisoner, the lives of 19 people will be saved. If Jim refuses to kill one prisoner, it will be to nobody’s advantage, because all 20 of the prisoners will die. From a utilitarian perspective, the choice is clear: Jim must kill one prisoner, since this will have the best consequences. According to this view, each individual’s well-being carries equal weight, so that, obviously, the well-being of the 19 who are saved will carry more weight than that of the one sacrificed. It is a matter of simple arithmetic: Jim must reduce the number of murders: more mur- ders are worse than fewer murders. “According to the utilitarian version of consequentialism, therefore, each person ought always to adopt the course of action, of those available to him, that contributes the most well-being to the world” (229). The fact that Jim’s conduct will place his own moral integrity in jeopardy and that the murder of one captive remains wrong, are of no consequence. It is clear that this approach does not hesitate to use people as a means to an end. One of the prisoners is “used” to save the lives of 19 others – something Kant would not have approved of.”[1]









[1] Vide: Professional Ethics: UNISA. Mucklneuk, Pretoria.2012.Page 66

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## Blurock

> I'm already trying to juggle 1000's of balls in the air, I sure as hell ain't going to worry about balls that are way out of my control.


Hope you don't lose your balls - or your marbles.

Have a good day my friend. :Wink:

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## Blurock

I think we have consensus that we don't want to wear T-shirts or stickers. So how do we tackle the issue of business ethics?




> The killer of corruption is transparency


 Absolutely!!

The government is trying to implement the secrecy bill, which will have the effect that none of their shenanigans and corruption will be reported. As it is, the whole Nkandla scandal is being wrapped in secrecy and will have to end up in court for the truth to be revealed. A crooked president is saying that he did not authorise it, he only benefits from the corruption of one of the state departments!

Unless the press report on corruption and organised groups object and take appropriate action, nothing will happen. An individual will drown in the noise and can be silenced very easily. A collective effort is not that easy to stop. :Detective:

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## Citizen X

> I think we have consensus that we don't want to wear T-shirts or stickers. So how do we tackle the issue of business ethics?
> 
> Absolutely!!
> 
> The government is trying to implement the secrecy bill, which will have the effect that none of their shenanigans and corruption will be reported. As it is, the whole Nkandla scandal is being wrapped in secrecy and will have to end up in court for the truth to be revealed. A crooked president is saying that he did not authorise it, he only benefits from the corruption of one of the state departments!
> 
> Unless the press report on corruption and organised groups object and take appropriate action, nothing will happen. An individual will drown in the noise and can be silenced very easily. A collective effort is not that easy to stop.


In law, the accepted wisdom is 'virue ethics,' which starts with the person himself/herself, the idea is to have moral excellence, a good character. The brainchild is that if you have a good character, your morals will be in check and you will be able to make responsible decisions in testing situtions. Plato is the leading exponent of virtue ethics. We have have rule based ethics, the idea here is to treat others in the same manner you'd expect to be treated in the same or similiar situation i.e. attorney/client, you ask yourself, is the service I'm giving acceptable, if I were to be given this service that I just gave, would I be happy?

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## Blurock

I raised the issue of business ethics at a recent workshop. We posed the question; If your supplier delivers 12 boxes but only charge you for 10, what would you do? 

50% said they would regard it as their lucky day.
50% said that they would inform the supplier of his mistake.

After some discussion the group agreed that someone's gain would be someone else's loss. Although the supplier may not find out about the over-supply, the right thing would be to return the surplus or pay for it.

It was evident from the discussion how ignorant some people are and how little regard there is for business ethics. Some people just do not understand the possible consequences of their actions. :Batman:

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Dave A (21-Nov-12)

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## gac

> The only way to get transparency is if enough people standing together to make the change. If you do nothing, nothing will change. 
> 
> One thing i have learnt about change, sending emails and complaining on social networks from the comfort of your office chair or lounge suite or bed for that matter, doesnt make change, you actually have to get out of your comfort zone and make it happen.


Agree with getting out of the comfort zone but any suggestions on how to make it happen? What is it that an individual can do on their own?

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## gac

> The great destroyer of corruption is not going to be all and sundry signing up, declaring and advertising that they're ethical. The killer of corruption is transparency.


Can't fault that signing up etc will not be the ultimate terminator, but thought its a good start in the face of not too many available options out there.

Support the transparency idea but any thoughts on how to achieve that?

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## ians

> Agree with getting out of the comfort zone but any suggestions on how to make it happen? What is it that an individual can do on their own?


Jessica Foord comes to mind.

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## Blurock

> Can't fault that signing up etc will not be the ultimate terminator, but thought its a good start in the face of not too many available options out there.
> 
> Support the transparency idea but any thoughts on how to achieve that?


Nkandla and the secrecy bill are good examples of how corruption can thrive if there is no transparency. If you have to hide what you are doing, there is usually a sinister reason for it. In Afrikaans they say"donker werk is konkel werk". 

The ANC is trying to adopt the communist and Chinese practice of controlling the press and manipulating the information available to the people. In a dictatorship such as Zimbabwe and the former Lybia the press was only allowed to write what the state allowed it. No government corruption or wrongdoing would ever be reported.

It is our duty to protect our freedom of speech and access to information. The alternative is a one-party dictatorship where you will get no information, have no rights and have no say.

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## gac

Ok, thanks ians, but I'm still not sure what is it that an individual like me should do in making a moral stand on the question of ethics and corruption, a pet hate of mine. I do agree with your initial statement viv-a-viz that more other than simply signing up for something is required however i cant but help think that signing up is at least a step in the right direction.

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## gac

> Jessica Foord comes to mind.


Ok, thanks ians, but I'm still not sure what is it that an individual should do in making a moral stand on the question of ethics and corruption, a pet hate of mine. I do agree with your initial statement viv-a-viz that more other than simply signing up for something is required however i cant but help think that signing up is at least a step in the right direction.

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## gac

Ok, thanks ians, but I'm still not sure what is it that an individual like me should do in making a moral stand on the question of ethics and corruption, a pet hate of mine. I do agree with your initial statement viv-a-viz that more other than simply signing up for something is required however i cant but help think that signing up is at least a step in the right direction.

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## ians

> Ok, thanks ians, but I'm still not sure what is it that an individual should do in making a moral stand on the question of ethics and corruption, a pet hate of mine. I do agree with your initial statement viv-a-viz that more other than simply signing up for something is required however i cant but help think that signing up is at least a step in the right direction.


Think of it this way, you want to give up smoking, so you go buy a patch and stick it on your arm, does it stop you from smoking. I wouldnt know because i needed more than a patch on my arm to give up. I had to actually get off my butt, walk 10 km every morning and make an effort to overcome the craving, by walking it made me feel better, i started eating healthy which in turn made me think everytime i wanted to hang on a cigarette. Now 12 years later i still have the urge ever now and again to light up, but i think of all the effort i had to go through to give up, it is the 3 rd time in my life i have had to give up, because it is just tooo easy to light up, when you get bored or have a beer with the lads. By the way everytime i am admitted to hospital for heart problems, the first thing they ask is are you a smoker?

My point is it is just too easy sticking a patch on your arm, a sticker on the back of your car etc, type and click forward an email, chances are you have already forgotten about the email or sticker 30 minutes after you stuck it on.

When you listen to life couches, motivational speaker etc , they also say stick a picture next to your PC or something to remind you about what it is that you are trying to achieve, be it loosing weight, a goal you are trying to achieve, does it work i wouldnt know i have never done it. So i ask all of you who have, does it work?

Her is another thing, people who buy fitness bikes, home gyms etc, ( i know this is off the topic). When someone ask what i think about a new bike, home gym etc, i always say the same thing, before you waste your money on fitness stuff, just get up at 5 am and walk for 1 month, every day, it cost nothing, but you actually have to get up and do it, after 1 month it you are still walking, go buy the fitness stuff or join the gym. otherwise dont waste your money. 

So signing up might be a step in the right direction but how long will it last?

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## Blurock

> Ok, thanks ians, but I'm still not sure what is it that an individual like me should do in making a moral stand on the question of ethics and corruption, a pet hate of mine. I do agree with your initial statement viv-a-viz that more other than simply signing up for something is required however i cant but help think that signing up is at least a step in the right direction.


Signing up may be a step in the right direction, providing you also get off your butt and do something. Often a community, forum or association's members support each other in persisting and by encouraging each other.

What can you do? Apply ethical business practices. Pay your suppliers in time - they are an essential part of your business. If you pay them late, they may just not be around next time you want to place that order. Do not risk messing with the tax man. Your business is worth more than the few Rands you can syphon off from SARS. Your accountant can assist you in legally reducing your tax. Evading tax is illegal and will result in us ending up like Greece. 

Report corruption. KPMG and others have an anonymous fraud line. Don't just do what the law requires, but do what is right. Ethics goes much further than the law. :Wink:

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## Dave A

> Support the transparency idea but any thoughts on how to achieve that?


Public awareness to escalate it to a major talking point.

The first big step to fight for is to make public tenders transparent again. And ultimately it's a political decision that needs to be made. So we need to get it to the top of the political agenda - making it a burning issue in political elections.

The only information provided in public tenders nowadays is who won the tender. And even getting that can be a mission. The official reason is it "predjudices the buyer for future tenders if they disclose the tender amounts". What a crock of an excuse! As Blurock has already covered, corruption flourishes when it is out of sight, and there is little doubt the non-disclosure is actually driven by blow-back when the mischief first started because the irregularities were in plain sight.

Damn hard to call a foul when the evidence is deliberately hidden away.

We need to go back to public tender openings, where the bid amounts per tender given is disclosed, along with any claims to preferential scoring and variations from original specifications submitted.

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Blurock (21-Nov-12)

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## gac

Agree 100% with your sentiments Dave A. 

The PFMA requirements regarding requirements in excess of R500k i.e. Public (Open) Tender is being contravened in that Department's have been inviting the Public to "Bid" for the consideration of their names to be approved onto a Preferred Supplier Database - no specific quoting of prices for specific requirements at this point only submission of supporting documents to qualify placement onto the Database and this is where ther Public process ceases. 

Once the Database has been created "publicly" requirements are then satisfied on aclosed basis whereby the Departments identify and invite Quotations confidentially from a select few pre-approved suppliers and nobody else knows who, what, when & how much! As a preferred supplier you only know about a specific requirement if you're asked to quote but even then you have no way of knowing who has been awarded the bid nor are you able to establish the price awarded!

The Agri Dept I deal with mainly and both National and Provincial Treasury have been extremely evasive in explaining whether this process is constitutionally and PFMA compliant, which I suggest it is grossly not.

If the PFMA requires a Public Tender on a requirement above R500k, how does the establishment of a Preferred Supplier Database satisfy that requirement. The compilation of a Database cannot be considered a tender because it does not require any prices and does not relate to a specific requirement. So there is no opportunity to evaluate competing bids at a price level, which incidentally accounts for 90 of 100 evaluation points in all bids exceeding R500k. At best, surely the "Public Process" requirement could only be satisfied by AT LEAST following an open process amongst ALL suppliers on the preferred database, which it does not.

Notwithstanding the above and coming back to my/your original points, if signing up for a good cause is not an effort in the right direction what exactly do you suggest might be. Whilst I agree with your high level thoughts what is it that you can offer that individuals might be able to do, rather than to simply debate the issue as we are doing here, that could move us all towards a potential solution?

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## Sparks

> Signing up may be a step in the right direction, providing you also get off your butt and do something. Often a community, forum or association's members support each other in persisting and by encouraging each other.
> 
> What can you do? Apply ethical business practices. Pay your suppliers in time - they are an essential part of your business. If you pay them late, they may just not be around next time you want to place that order. Do not risk messing with the tax man. Your business is worth more than the few Rands you can syphon off from SARS. Your accountant can assist you in legally reducing your tax. Evading tax is illegal and will result in us ending up like Greece. 
> 
> Report corruption. KPMG and others have an anonymous fraud line. Don't just do what the law requires, but do what is right. Ethics goes much further than the law.


Purely by chance I landed here and could not suppress the smile and occasional laugh as I read through the posts. I agree with Adrian. Signing a pettition I believe is, in most cases "Lip service", what purpose does that serve other than stroking one's ego? 

On the other hand as Blurock says, sweep your own porch. Now that is the way I do it. Most of the people with fish stuck to their bumpers are actually a disgrace to it. The same applies to most of those with wristbands to "remind" them what to do. If you know what is right then do it, if you don't then research it.

To each his own. My long gone wife used to say "I am an individual with an individual right" also she said "I am who I am and I don't give a damn" (about what other people think).

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adrianh (05-Dec-12), Chrisjan B (05-Dec-12)

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## CLIVE-TRIANGLE

In my opinion the current absence of moral and ethical behavior by government has severely compromised the ethical behaviour of a host of enterprises. My experience is that many companies that were, albeit reluctantly, ethical with regard to statutory obligations, now have the opinion that (as an example) taxation amounts to theft.

To be honest I share the sentiment to an extent. The real danger is that the attitude eventually becomes the rule rather than the exception and extends to other facets of their business; paying suppliers and their treatment of employees and customers, because in essence it becomes the way that they do business, rather than an aberration. It is indeed a slippery slope....

It even manifests itself in the way that they treat their strategic partners.

I personally feel that it is a sad day when we feel obliged to sign a manifest binding ourselves to ethical behaviour. It should be really be taken as done. It implies that absence of ethics is the norm and that signatories are the exception.

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adrianh (05-Dec-12), Chrisjan B (06-Dec-12)

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## Blurock

It is common knowledge that different societies and cultures have different ideas about morals and ethics. It is only in forums like this and in groups or organisations that meaningful debate can make people realize how their actions or inaction impacts on society as a whole.

It is very nice to say "I do my own thing" and to not get involved, but that does not make the world a better place. We all strive for peace and prosperity and dream about times when everything is was working, when councilors were not paid, but served the community. When children still played outside and could leave their bicycles and toys there when called for dinner. Many of us still remember times when moral fibre was held high and sport was not about the money and winning at all cost.

Breaking the rules, skipping red robots, abusing children, stealing from your employer, stealing from the people of South Africa (by a most corrupt government) has become the norm. Only by educating and organizing the masses and adding more voices of discontent and disgust will these practices be seen as unethical, corrupt and a sin against humanity. 

I do not think that bumper stickers or the odd cheer or petition will help, but we all have to start somewhere and make a concerted effort to change the ethics and moral principles of our people if we do not want to slide into anarchy. In some areas we already have anarchy where there is no concern for lives lost and the anarchists do not care about the consequences of their actions. Is that what we want for this beautiful country?

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wynn (06-Dec-12)

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## wynn

Going to church and having a fish on your bumper does not make you a Christian any more than standing in a garage with a Ferrari Tshirt on makes you a car!

I have always said that the problem with Christianity is Christians!!

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## adrianh

Ah but you see, for some it is important to "Just Do it" and for some it is important to advertise (The fish and the "oh I am so totally gay" - rainbow sticker)

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## Blurock

Interesting article by Forbes and oh so true! 




> If I could teach only one value to live by, it would be this: Success will come and go, but integrity is forever. Integrity means doing the right thing at all times and in all circumstances, whether or not anyone is watching. It takes having the courage to do the right thing, no matter what the consequences will be. Building a reputation of integrity takes years, but it takes only a second to lose, so never allow yourself to ever do anything that would damage your integrity.


http://lnkd.in/6E8UvF

Well worth a read. :Big Grin:

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Dave A (13-Dec-12)

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## Dave A

> The list could go on and on, and in each case the person committing the act of dishonesty told themselves they had a perfectly valid reason why the end result justified their lack of integrity.


That's very much the core of the problem - the human ability to rationalise.

I also really loved this:




> Warren Buffet, Chairman and CEO of Berkshire Hathaway said it best:, “In looking for people to hire, look for three qualities: integrity, intelligence, and energy.  And if they don’t have the first one, the other two will kill you.”


So true!

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