# Regulatory Compliance Category > Labour Relations and Legislation Forum >  4 employees vs the boss

## league_of_ordinary_men

Okay I have 4 friends all working at the same business,now there new boss who bought the business it seems is trying to work them out in any way possible.If they even just look at management the wrong way or management thinks they have a bad attitude then there in his office and getting there heads ripped off,he would make false accusations against them add it to there file without them knowing it and one day just say look at all the complaints or he get someone intimidate them to the point to where there a false witness against them for things they never did.So what can these guys do because they are dependent on there salary's but can't take working there anymore.So what would you say they should,I mean I really want to help these guys out.And it's been heard said that the boss was walking to his office with a box of tissue and he was asked by the previous owners wife what's that for and he actually said he likes to make the woman cry when he call's them to his office and there has been case where woman actually came out crying and he say's things like your pathetic,how can you be a mother,do I have to f#@k you up to work as a team....etc.I really want to help these guys do something about this man,I mean no one has the right to treat people like this.So please guys any help will be much appreciated.

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## adrianh

They must record all the conversations with and he must put his problems with them in writing.

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## league_of_ordinary_men

> They must record all the conversations with and he must put his problems with them in writing.


That's the thing,if they even try to record a conversation he will go mad and he does put it in writing but they don't know about it until one day he pull's out there files and it was even over heard him saying to the manager who was typing out an notice for one of them to appear for an hearing that she should just make up stuff to make the case stronger to win.

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## adrianh

Well then they should write down everything says and does so that they are ready to take him for constructive dismissal if he tries to get clever. Employment is a 2 way street, he can't do as he pleases.

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## league_of_ordinary_men

> Well then they should write down everything says and does so that they are ready to take him for constructive dismissal if he tries to get clever. Employment is a 2 way street, he can't do as he pleases.


I was thinking they should do that but not sure how it works.And one of them was put on 12 hour shifts 6 day's a week is that even legal? And how can we go for constructive dismissal because his starting to get funny.

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## Dave A

How many employees are there in the company in total?

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## tec0

> That's the thing,if they even try to record a conversation he will go mad and he does put it in writing but they don't know about it until one day he pull's out there files and it was even over heard him saying to the manager who was typing out an notice for one of them to appear for an hearing that she should just make up stuff to make the case stronger to win.


Call the Department Of Labour (Mannekrag) and ask for an investigation. Also tell them to get Union representation and legal representation. Tell the boss they have the legal right to record all conversations as by law there must be a record. 

Have them do lie detector tests then they can demand that the false witness be tested. If the false witness refuses the test then there credibility will go the way of the dodo.

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## league_of_ordinary_men

> How many employees are there in the company in total?


I think it's + - 50

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## league_of_ordinary_men

> Call the Department Of Labour (Mannekrag) and ask for an investigation. Also tell them to get Union representation and legal representation. Tell the boss they have the legal right to record all conversations as by law there must be a record. 
> 
> Have them do lie detector tests then they can demand that the false witness be tested. If the false witness refuses the test then there credibility will go the way of the dodo.


Really good advise thank you,I will talk to them.But these guys cant take working there anymore it's to the point where they would rather quite and have no job for a while till they can find new once that's how bad it is and I really do feel for these guy's.Thanks for all the solid advise.

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## tec0

> Really good advise thank you,I will talk to them.But these guys cant take working there anymore it's to the point where they would rather quite and have no job for a while till they can find new once that's how bad it is and I really do feel for these guy's.Thanks for all the solid advise.


I was in the same situation once, bad boss really angry man. One morning I walked into his office locked the door and we "talked". Just remember however if they walk the CCMA can't do anything. If they get fired that changes. If I was them "And I am not" I would just ignore him and record him. If he screams about the recording then 4 people can tell him look we are tired of your crap if you can't say it on record then it is not legit. 

If someone is trying to fire you. Then what do you have to lose? Take a stand.

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## Dave A

That's certainly a large enough organisation to expect formal disciplinary procedures to be in place.

If they are considering claiming constructive dismissal, it might be an idea to refer them to Anthony's rather excellent post on the subject first.

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## tec0

> That's certainly a large enough organisation to expect formal disciplinary procedures to be in place.
> 
> If they are considering claiming constructive dismissal, it might be an idea to refer them to Anthony's rather excellent post on the subject first.


That is a proper Blog...

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## league_of_ordinary_men

But do you think they should go the way of constrictive dismissal? And one of them needs to appear for a hearing on the 13th and one of them will be going to the CCMA on Tuesday to get some advise,but they want to know if they can make one big case or does it have to be one by one? Because they are so tired they don't care if they lose there job any more,one of them already found a new job already and he has one of the strongest cases and I think the one with the "weakest" cases say's the boss told hem does he have to moer them to get them working as a team and him and said if he can't do his work then he will have no problem getting someone who can and that was multiple times and there's falls accusations of him sleeping on the job from a false witness and who know's what else he has against him he doesn't even know about because the one that needs to appear for the hearing is hearing about things that she never knew about.So what do you think? There's more as well.

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## league_of_ordinary_men

> That is a proper Blog...


That is really good and thank you DaveA  :Smile:

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## sterne.law@gmail.com

I'm loath to comment, or predict, when it comes to constructive dismissal, for obvious reasons. Remembering that CD is only a claim when a person has resigned.
The most obvious being the ability to prove. It does help if there are a couple of employees as that creates some collaborating evidence, though the obvious defence is to say they are plotting, they did not like my new rules, etc, etc.

The guy who has a new job, probably may as well give it a whirl, as he has no risk.
The shifts - are not only unlawful, but are probably a unilateral change to terms and conditions. It does also help provide some proof of intolerable conditions. 
Given the need to address the issue, to strengthen a case, my standard advice is
Set out the complaint, in writing, email being good, with regards to the issues.
The employer may correct the problem, which is great. If not, a critical element of the CD case has been met.
If  the employer retaliated by dismissing, the employee is where he would be if he resigned, and with probably a stronger case. 
If the employer merely steps up the victimisation, then again, the case is slightly stronger.
It is imperative, as suggested earlier, to keep a diary, (locked away), and record all instances immediately, while fresh. Then 're read later to rationalise the emotion out.

're the hearing - one can't pre empty that.

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league_of_ordinary_men (29-Sep-13), tec0 (29-Sep-13)

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## tec0

I would imagine this being my opinion and not based on any law or anything that your friends will be better off looking for better work. Thing is with a boss like that why would you stick around. Recording devices are really inexpensive. I paid R300 for mine it is an audio video recorder that looks like a pen. Can record up to 1 hour. 

I also have a 16Gb memory card in my phone and it will record audio for until the battery is flat. Quality is high enough. Log both recordings and keep a diary. All this will proof a forced resignation but really that doesn’t fix things long term.  A boss like this they don’t take kindly to retaliation. 

I do feel for your friends I really do but I think shopping for another job may well be a good call.

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## league_of_ordinary_men

> I'm loath to comment, or predict, when it comes to constructive dismissal, for obvious reasons. Remembering that CD is only a claim when a person has resigned.
> The most obvious being the ability to prove. It does help if there are a couple of employees as that creates some collaborating evidence, though the obvious defence is to say they are plotting, they did not like my new rules, etc, etc.
> 
> The guy who has a new job, probably may as well give it a whirl, as he has no risk.
> The shifts - are not only unlawful, but are probably a unilateral change to terms and conditions. It does also help provide some proof of intolerable conditions. 
> Given the need to address the issue, to strengthen a case, my standard advice is
> Set out the complaint, in writing, email being good, with regards to the issues.
> The employer may correct the problem, which is great. If not, a critical element of the CD case has been met.
> If  the employer retaliated by dismissing, the employee is where he would be if he resigned, and with probably a stronger case. 
> ...


Really informative thank you for the advise.




> I would imagine this being my opinion and not based on any law or anything that your friends will be better off looking for better work. Thing is with a boss like that why would you stick around. Recording devices are really inexpensive. I paid R300 for mine it is an audio video recorder that looks like a pen. Can record up to 1 hour. 
> 
> I also have a 16Gb memory card in my phone and it will record audio for until the battery is flat. Quality is high enough. Log both recordings and keep a diary. All this will proof a forced resignation but really that doesn’t fix things long term.  A boss like this they don’t take kindly to retaliation. 
> 
> I do feel for your friends I really do but I think shopping for another job may well be a good call.


Yeah there at the point of just quieting and look for another job,but dam bosses like this just makes me so made.Good idea with the pen thanks.

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tec0 (29-Sep-13)

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## Justloadit

Life is a bitch, and sometimes it needs a change to improve.

The type of boss described will continue to make your life hell, and if you win a case, even worse, he will fabricate evidence and even plant evidence to make your life hell.
You will find that these people are diabolical and will set their sights on you and will not stop till you are destroyed.

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## tec0

> Life is a bitch, and sometimes it needs a change to improve.
> 
> The type of boss described will continue to make your life hell, and if you win a case, even worse, he will fabricate evidence and even plant evidence to make your life hell.
> You will find that these people are diabolical and will set their sights on you and will not stop till you are destroyed.


Unfortunately I have to agree. My X X X X X xxxxxx boss got to the stage where he entered the apartment that I was renting from him and “searched” it. Regardless of the fact that he found nothing and later on realized that the theft was indeed form another family member and employee I was on my way out.

Truth is you don’t need people like that. After I left most of his employees did the same and his business became a shadow of what it was. See being the boss they think they can do whatever they want. They believe they are above the laws of normal men. 

That said he made sure to mention that I was on his property and he will have me arrested because I was about to get physical. Still bosses like these just don’t worry about them. In future make sure you have both union and legal representation for the next boss. Be just as unforgiving as they are and don't let anything slide. Keep records form every conversation keep a diary of each and every encounter. If they cheat you with anything run to your representation and make sure they are actively involved.

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## Justloadit

Still not a way to spend your years on this planet. There is always something better further on, it takes guts to make the move, as change also can mean turmoil.
What is important, is that you must calculate the move, always have a back up plan when the shit hits the fan, simply living a day to day existence is not living!

Sometimes the place you are right now is a temporary inconvenience, part of the stepping stones to a better destination.

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## league_of_ordinary_men

One of the guy's wanted to know,he requested for some of his holiday leave on the 14th of this month and he wanted to know if he quits before his leave do they still have to pay him for the leave? And if he takes his leave and returns before the end of the month when his leave is finished and he quits before the end of the month and he doesn't work out his notice period can they have an excuse not to pay out his salary from the 1 to the 13th and the leave he took? And then one of the other guy's ask's if he quits can there be an excuse for them not to pay out the monthly deducted retirement fund?

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## sterne.law@gmail.com

Leave pay is part and parcel of a package therefore, whether fired or resigning, it must be paid out. 
A bonus or 13th cheque may or may not be paid depending on the contract terms.
The salary worked must be paid, HOWEVER, what many company's do when notice is not worked is withhold leave and/or salary. Strictly speaking the non working of notice is breach of contract and they should sue civilly unless the employment contract has a penalty clause.
The retirement depends on the rules, it should not be with the company. Quitting would not be a reason to not pay, but there may be penalties for early withdrawal etc. For instance sometimes the company contribution may be forfeited.

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tec0 (01-Oct-13)

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## league_of_ordinary_men

> Leave pay is part and parcel of a package therefore, whether fired or resigning, it must be paid out. 
> A bonus or 13th cheque may or may not be paid depending on the contract terms.
> The salary worked must be paid, HOWEVER, what many company's do when notice is not worked is withhold leave and/or salary. Strictly speaking the non working of notice is breach of contract and they should sue civilly unless the employment contract has a penalty clause.
> The retirement depends on the rules, it should not be with the company. Quitting would not be a reason to not pay, but there may be penalties for early withdrawal etc. For instance sometimes the company contribution may be forfeited.


As far as I know the retirement is with sanlam fortuno,I have one of there contracts with me and my afrikaans is a bit rusty but the only part it mentions anything about with holding salary in the ending of employment section it says "Die werkgewer mag sonder enige kennisgewing of enige betaaling,in plaas van kennisgewing in geval van growwe wangedrag of oneerlikheid deur die werknemer,die knotrak beeindig" now as I dont understand the growwe wnagedrag part,I mean what exactly does it mean?

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## Dave A

Before panicking about what might constitute "growwe wangedrag", it's probably worth pointing out that the employer terminating the pension contract does not imply the member's interest in the fund is forfeited  :Wink: 

And certainly, resignation wouldn't constitute a serious offence.

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## league_of_ordinary_men

> Before panicking about what might constitute "growwe wangedrag", it's probably worth pointing out that the employer terminating the pension contract does not imply the member's interest in the fund is forfeited 
> 
> And certainly, resignation wouldn't constitute a serious offence.


Thanks Dave  :Smile:  these guys are just trying to get there bearings straight before they make a move.Is it the job of the employer to request that funds owed to the employ be payed out or does the employ have to request it him self from sanlam?

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## Dave A

The exact process of withdrawing or moving funds will depend on the fund rules. However, it can't be unreasonable. And if it is, I believe there's a fairly effective industry ombudsman that will step in to assist.

I certainly wouldn't count on the funds becoming available on short notice though. In fact it shouldn't feature as an issue in their short term planning at all (unless they're planning to retire in the next few months  :Wink:  )

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## sterne.law@gmail.com

A direct interpretation indicates that the notice period to the fund will be waived for growwe conduct.

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## league_of_ordinary_men

So one off the 4 guys was accused of steeling stuff and the footage they have is a joke,the guy was pulling up his pants and they say he was hiding 4 cartons of cigarettes under his jacket and the best part is the boss gave him death threats and almost broke his nose.

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## tec0

> So one off the 4 guys was accused of steeling stuff and the footage they have is a joke,the guy was pulling up his pants and they say he was hiding 4 cartons of cigarettes under his jacket and the best part is the boss gave him death threats and almost broke his nose.


Well you have the right to report any and all crimes and remember if someone attacks you it is a crime if someone accuse you falsely it is a crime. Never forget that you can act if you feel you must. The law is the law.

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## CLIVE-TRIANGLE

> "Die werkgewer mag sonder enige kennisgewing of enige betaaling,in plaas van kennisgewing in geval van growwe wangedrag of oneerlikheid deur die werknemer,die kontrak beeindig"


 :Smile:  You souties are struggling with this. It simply describes grounds for immediate dismissal without notice. Translated is says that if an employee is found guilty of gross misconduct or dishonesty, the employer may terminate the agreement without notice.

This is pretty much what any disciplinary code would say. It does attempt change the provisions of the BCOE which anyway makes provision for an employer to waive any notice period, but then obliges him to pay that notice period instead. It says "sonder enige betaling". This is contra the Act and will never fly.

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## league_of_ordinary_men

> You souties are struggling with this. It simply describes grounds for immediate dismissal without notice. Translated is says that if an employee is found guilty of gross misconduct or dishonesty, the employer may terminate the agreement without notice.
> 
> This is pretty much what any disciplinary code would say. It does attempt change the provisions of the BCOE which anyway makes provision for an employer to waive any notice period, but then obliges him to pay that notice period instead. It says "sonder enige betaling". This is contra the Act and will never fly.


hahaha wat se vir jou ons is souties,hahaha this guy wasn't found guilty and wont be found guilty because he didn't steel anything, no charges was brought against him and I don't think they will charge him. He says there was a police inspector and two police officers as well and after watching the video of him "steeling" the cigarettes the inspector looked like something wasn't right so he dismissed the two officers and told them they can leave, then he spoke to the boss in privet and later on spoke to him in privet as well telling him that he told the boss to calm down and think about if he wants to lay charges.To me that says there's no proof of him steeling or else they would have arrested him then and there on charges of theft. He wants to go to the ccma about this and tell them about the assault bt wont lay a charge of assault against him because it wont achieve anything because most likely he will just admit it and pay a fine. Now what I would like to know is the begging of this month he put in his resignation and on the 14th when this happened after words he gave them his key's and never went back, can they do anything because he just left while working out his notice? but what he did say he was going to do is go to the police and get a sworn statement.

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