# General Business Category > General Business Forum > [Article] Get paid.....blacklist your non paying clients

## QUINN

If you are like many South African business owners you hate chasing people for your money...right?
Contacting your local attorney will cost you R350 before he even finished his morning tea. ( My attorney charges R950 every time he picks my file up )
I was in the same position and thought there must be a better way.
So in collaboration with a friendly legal eagle over a weekend at Leopard Creek we came up with a solution. Over that weekend, siyeza consumer credit solutions was born. 
Basically the solution is simple:
 :Smile:  MR BUSINESS OWNER, in good faith provided a service or product.
    30 days later, no payment.....60 days still no payment....90 to 120 days
    and guess what still no payment. Normally your only option would be to instruct your attorney to issue summons +- R4000 for a default judgment. :Confused: 
MR DEFAULTER then can use any number of legal remedies to avoid or delay payment.
The Solution: siyeza will send your defaulter a letter of intention to list within 28 days, we will stress the importance of a credit profile and the negative impact it can have on your ability to access credit.
3 days before the 28 days expire we will send an sms.
In 78 percent of the cases we have received either a payment or a suitable arrangement.
This method might seem simple but we have gone through the entire collection process as stipulated in the Act and found that it is possible to settle most issues before you instruct an attorney. In fact we have several attorneys that use our services. :Clap: 
I placed this information on the forum for two reasons:
1) Obviously I cant help but punt a new business.
2) I would really like the opinion of all on the forum, any suggestions or concerns would really be appreciated.

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## Sieg

What happens when the "bad payer" ignores you and just doesn't pay? Do you then go right ahead and blacklist the "bad payer"?

Sieg

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## Dave A

The fee for this service would be..?

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## insulin

Interesting... However before credit can be given a credit check must be done. It is required by law. Then there is the contract itself between creditor and debtor that needs to be taken into consideration. Make sure that the creditorâs nose is clean before you act. The simple reason for this is that you might find yourself as a tool for extortion and the consequences may be severe. So be selective when it comes to clientele. 

Good luck!  :Wink:

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## Marq

This a good idea. But you will have to follow through to ensure that it is sustained. Otherwise it becomes known out there that this is just an empty threat. I sometimes issue a letter on the same basis using another company name that I have. Sometimes it works.....but not always.

Included in my arsenal is a trip to the cop shop where I lodge a bilking charge against the owner /md of the company in default. That seems to put a bug up their arse.

Perhaps one could go down a lay fraud and theft charges and tackle these small debts from a criminal point of view rather than a civil one. Its not first prize but it has a degree of satisfaction knowing that at some point in their future they may run into a problem that they laughed off at some stage in their past. :Nono:

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## insulin

Once anything becomes a criminal matter there is real consequence partly because all criminal matters must go to court. Just make sure you have your facts right when you walk down this path because it will get ugly.  :Confused:

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## QUINN

Hi Sig
Yes, we then list the defaulter with all major credit reporting companies.
There is no legal requirement to wait the 28 days, it is just a part of the code of good practice.

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## QUINN

Not sure what is meant by your post. We act on behalf of creditors in civil matters.

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## QUINN

Hi DAVE
Hope you are well.

We charge R99. per listing.
Companies with listings of more than 50 per month get reduced rates.
We also do special rates for schools, they have a hell ova lot of poor payers.

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## QUINN

Maybe I was not clear on exactly what we do. :Wink: 

We have added a step in the collections process.
This step most of the time reduces the time and money needed to collect from your customers. I agree every business should screen their client more carefully, this service we offer as well, but most businesses do find that they are paid late or never even though they screened the client.

My attorney clients use this "tool" to work through all their collection cases.
It sorts the HARD CASES from the late payers.

If you as a business send letters of demand with no intention of issuing summons you might as well right off the debt. Professional debtors know what it costs to take legal action and they know you are only barking at the moon.
At least with our tool you have a some measure of penalizing them for non payment.

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## Debbiedle

Definitely the route I would follow if necessary as the new credit act has made all the consumers aware of the importance of a good credit rating.  But a question Quinn...how does this differ from a pure collection agency?

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## QUINN

> Definitely the route I would follow if necessary as the new credit act has made all the consumers aware of the importance of a good credit rating.  But a question Quinn...how does this differ from a pure collection agency?


Hi Debbie,
A debt collection company will send letters of demand, accept payment arrangements on behalf of their clients. If the client then fails to make any payments the matter would have to be referred to an attorney that will start the collection process from scratch.
We offer an alternative to businesses and private individuals, if your defaulter will required credit in the next 3 years he will have to pay up. If he does not we list him on your behalf and he will have to pay before his name is cleared. try buying a car or a property with a listing.....

Don't get me wrong issuing summons is still the way to go but for R100 bucks you might save a few thousand

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## Debbiedle

Hi again Quinn - I had a client mess me around with about R3000 the year before last, googled a debt collector and using/threatening/promising the consequence of the credit bureau listing, they were successful within a week or two. 

They asked me one question before hand "had he at any time disputed that the monies were due?"

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## QUINN

You probably had to pay 10 % collection comm. Around R300 rand.
It proves my point you can get the same result with R99 excluding Vat.

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## garthu

If only had this a month ago... paying 2400 for a 24K collection... get this, he's paying 1k per month.. :Mad:  I suspect this would have worked with them as dont believe they couldn't pay it... but anyway, at least its coming

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## Debbiedle

> You probably had to pay 10 % collection comm. Around R300 rand.
> It proves my point you can get the same result with R99 excluding Vat.


Aaah!  The penny drops!  Thks!

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## QUINN

Again, this is just a first port of call so to say.
If we dont get results I would suggest a legal route.
There are many options here to, maybe I should look into some collection methods and get back to everyone. I have found that not all attorneys work the same and one might have a proven method.

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## Dave A

That would be useful too, Quinn. Thanks.

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## Yvonne

Quinn - Find a desperate need and fill it!  Well done!!!

Once read that the most succesful debt collection service here in the U.S. merely "parked" a vehicle - very vividly sign written - Debt collector etc. in front of the residence of the defaulter! 
The average defaulter paid fairly quickly!  
But given that once upon a time people cared about their neighbours, and what their neighbours thought of their morals, wonder what their success rate is these days?

How fine is the legal line between "harassment" and fairness? 

Bilking - I thought bilking applied only to unpaid bills for a restaurant or accommodation?  
Can you lay a criminal charge for bilking for unpaid services, or rent deposits not returned?

I was under the impression one had to go the full legal route for recovery, before one could blacklist a defaulter.  

Yvonne

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## QUINN

> Quinn - Find a desperate need and fill it!  Well done!!!
> 
> Once read that the most succesful debt collection service here in the U.S. merely "parked" a vehicle - very vividly sign written - Debt collector etc. in front of the residence of the defaulter! 
> The average defaulter paid fairly quickly!  
> But given that once upon a time people cared about their neighbours, and what their neighbours thought of their morals, wonder what their success rate is these days?
> 
> How fine is the legal line between "harassment" and fairness? 
> 
> Bilking - I thought bilking applied only to unpaid bills for a restaurant or accommodation?  
> ...


Hi Yvonne
I is a common misconception that business must take the legal rout first.
As I said "LETS GET PAID FOR A CHANGE"

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## Sparks

> We charge R99. per listing.
> Companies with listings of more than 50 per month get reduced rates.
> We also do special rates for schools, they have a hell ova lot of poor payers.




Hi, according to the site you posted a link to:
 1. "Default Listing of bad payers: 


      R285 per listing."

  2. "You can list a defaulter for any amount from R50."

Would you please clarify?

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## sterne.law@gmail.com

re: bilking
There are two scenarios -
leaving the restaurant without paying a cent = Bilking and a criminal charge
paying something towards the bill = Civil procedure - contractual issue. no criminal offence, per se.

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## sterne.law@gmail.com

Hello Quinn,
Who ever posted "see a need and fill it" was right on the money (pun intended)
I too have recently added debt collecting (or as I prefer to call it, debt management) to my portfolio.
I have used a combination of things.
I send the letter of demand as a courtesy. Being on an attorney letterhead has more effect than a debt collection agency. I offer them an opportunity to present a payment plan, or pay. Failing which we issue summons immediately.
I let the client handle the so called management of payments, to save them the costs and me the bother, a difference fromthe debt collection agency, although it does mean i am reliant on the client to communicate effeciently and be sharp.
I concentrate on building repeat business. Most clients hand over anything that reaches a set day, eg 90 days overdue. 
As to charges - If I issue summons, the charges are claimable from the non payer, so client has no cost. From my perspective I charge the standard rate as set down by legislation for summons, average R400 depending on amount. Seeing as all I need to do is change the address, and minor details (I am dealing with provisional summons here) my time and effort is well rewarded.
Being provisional summons, there is no ground to challenge at initial stage (they need to pay and then challenge the obligation afterwards) Provisional summons becomes a writ and execution all in one process, it is designed to favour the person owed money, and their are no delaying tactics available like ordinary summons (requireing summary judgment and/or default judgment procedures)
As to other charges, I have not set in stone any parameters. I do not charge for every letter and every phone call etc. As a rule I say 10% but generally if the payment is made quickly, charge a flat rate of R150. Because I go to summons straight away, I do not waste time with phone calls and letters etc, ect. If summons is issued tehn I charge the summons rate, which the client reclaims in a cost order..
Importantly I try and preserve the clients business relationship with their client where possible.

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## SilverNodashi

Quinn, can you please tell me more?

As a hosting / IT company, we seem to rack-up many bad debtors very quickly. Clients order a hosting package + domain today, and next year when it's time for renewal they simply don't pay, nor do they let us know what todo with it. And they also don't even have the decency to let us know they want to cancel. Not a big deal, so we just cancel their domain & hosting. Job done. 

But, when we do web development for clients, they would normally pay 50% deposit upfront, and we do the job, and they pay upon job completion. The problem is, some don't. The job is done, time & resources are wasted and no invoices paid. 



How can your services help me in this case to either get paid, or have them blacklisted?

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## Sparks

It appears all is not so well. I made my previous post out of genuine interest. I needed clarification before commiting. The delay in a simple answer is starting to develope an odour. A pity, I can do with this type of service.

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## Perform Computers

People think they can just advertise on here once off and the business will coming rolling in. If you cannot even reply to a thread on a forum, how can you expect to deliver good service?

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## Dave A

Quinn was quite active on TFSA for a while and shared some good insights along the way. And then she simply disappeared. 

I suspect there was a change in her personal situation.

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## Sparks

Yes, she was quite informative for a while. I really believed something could come of it. I lose way too much through defaulters.

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## Debbiedle

What is your opinion?  On this issue of non payment, there are the traditional methods as mentioned above.  There is however another option starting to rear its head.  At this stage I am very uncomfortable with it, but it does speak to my natural tendency to transparency and accountability on the other hand..

Supplier is owed for goods and services rendered.
Debtor defaults
Supplier tries all traditional routes short of legal action then goes to their own facebook fan page with it.
Debtor responds but in private.
Supplier responds on fb fan page.
Supplier gets newspapers and others involved (because it is a "breaking news" high profile supplier and debtor) and whilst naming and shaming debtor, offers that debtor as matter of principle can donate the money to a worthy charity.
Debtor remains mum.

Do you think this is unprofessional? Would you do it? Does it speak to your transparency and "righteousness"?
I really am quite torn.. 

Check it out for yourself.  Charley's Bakery CT is the supplier and Fonerina or something like that the debtor.

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## Dave A

Debtor should have paid before the publicity storm broke.

The folk that pay on summons as opposed to on time deserve some adverse publicity IMO. I've got a couple of 'em that deserve it, and at times I've been tempted to name and shame.

*Un*fortunately, I suspect the potential legal consequences outweigh the personal gratification - because that's all I think you're going to get. I'm pretty sure it's not going to result in you getting paid.

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## AndyD

I agree those that wait for summons to pay deserve all the bad publicity they get. What legal issues would you foresee with naming and shaming on a public forum such as Facebook or TFSA?

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## Dave A

This thread on naming and shaming gives some perspective on the issue. It can get tricky.

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## sterne.law@gmail.com

I think the essentials is that any "accusation" must be truthful, based on cold hard facts. In this case tehre can be no cause for action.
The second part is the ancillary stuff - the lying B$^$&d said he would pay on Friday and did not. This allows a possible case for slandering, defamation, personal injury etc, etc.
A website or collection of persons(such as name and shame) would enter a new realm. Even if it was merely a listing of bad payers, based on cold hard facts such as where the account was specified as COD or 7 days and was not paid (that is measuarble and ascertainable) it may be seen as a deliberate attempt to besmirch the name and potentially damaging. Here, i woudl think, a cross over with Dave comment on the other thread, of allowing two way communication would be important. in other words a naming and shaming list should provide or removel of name where person did pay, as an example.

Of course teh phrase - If you cant do the time dont do the crime, does spring to mind.

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Dave A (25-Mar-11)

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## Sparks

If Quinn had been upfront and got her facts right about how much they charge I am sure they could have gained some business here. Now all that is left is another bad taste in the mouth with the problems of bad debt still as bad as ever. Perhaps there is a legal eagle with entrepeneurial spirit looking for a gap in the market. If the performance claims are adhered to it could certainly be a lucrative business.

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## whateverdude

I love you guys. I love all debt collectors. The useless threats always give me a chuckle. When one of you fools contact me, I request you to do your worst, and then I never hear from you again. Gotta love this country.

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## CLIVE-TRIANGLE

The least said about your sentiments, the better.

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## Just Gone

> I love you guys. I love all debt collectors. The useless threats always give me a chuckle. When one of you fools contact me, I request you to do your worst, and then I never hear from you again. Gotta love this country.


Clearly a person qualified in the art of ignoring debt collectors .......

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## Dave A

> I love you guys. I love all debt collectors. The useless threats always give me a chuckle. When one of you fools contact me, I request you to do your worst, and then I never hear from you again. Gotta love this country.


And your emails bounce faster than your cheques  :Stick Out Tongue:

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## Chrisjan B

Thats not necessarily bad....

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## adrianh

Ok, but realistically, debt collectors spend their days harassing people, there isn't much more that they can do. As soon as people start to harassess me or my staff I get to have a lot of fun with them on the phone. That stern 'pay now or else' tone simply serves to switch my 'f-u' mode on... one of my staff members owes a company money and he would pay it all if he were able to. Unfortunately sh1t happened in his life and his wife is now unemployed. He still has to pay all the bills each month including their bill. They can't get it through their heads that he is willing to pay the outstanding amount at a slower pace. So now each time they phone they get a lot of crap from me. Debt collectors who do not consider the position that people sometimes find themselves in are scum, they should be treated as such and I do.

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## Just Gone

> Debt collectors who do not consider the position that people sometimes find themselves are scum, they should be treated as such and I do.


I do agree with you adrianh

But

Those people that buy or purchase from you with the intention of not paying, and they do have the money are also scum !!

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Dave A (05-Sep-12)

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## adrianh

Agreed....

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## NicoGrob

Hi Quinette, please give me your contact detail - I have some work for you - want to blaclist bad payers.

Nico Grobbelaar

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## Chrisjan B

Stay away...

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## Afonso

How do I go about to blacklist someone on this site?

Regards
Orlando Afonso

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## AndyD

Hi Alfonso,

Is there someone on this forum you want to blacklist or are you hoping to use the forum to blacklist somebody?

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## Afonso

Hi Quinette

Could you please let me have you contact details.  I would like to speek to you
regarding blacklisting.

Regards
Orlando Afonso

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## Chrisjan B

Stay away means just that - used the "service" paid the money and the other party not blacklisted....

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## IanF

Have you tried experian collection letter. I have never used this so if this can include blacklisting is not known.

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