# Social Category > South African Politics Forum >  The Right to Life

## Fanie

> The Right to Life
> Section 11 of the Constitution (Right to Life) vs. Act 60 of 2000 (FCA)
> Annexure A: Copy of The Bill of Rights
> Annexure B: FCA 60 of 2000
> Annexure C: Narrative from Mr Kgosimore (Department of Criminology, University of the North)
> Annexure D: Copy of Replying Affidavit Case No: 13963/2011 in the North Gauteng High Court
> 
> Consultation and Investigation Conducted
> 
> ...





This document has been submitted to the Human Rights commission, the DA, and the Public Protector as well as the Sunday Times.

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## Fanie

> Dear Sir/Madam, 
> 
> As a concerned citizen I have been forced to obtain greater perspective in the Constitution (Chapter 2 – Bill of Rights), which all started with attempting to comply with the New FCA Act 60 of 2000. 
> 
> After 6 months of endless research in applications, requirements, Appeals and international standards it has become evident that the Bill of Rights is being infringed/threatened by countless Acts from the Government. 
> 
> To add to this unabated attack the SAPS have also taken it upon themselves to interpret the New Act as they see fit and have thus added to the infringement of the Bill of Rights with zest. 
> 
> And lastly the Judiciary has become impotent in ensuring that the Constitution is upheld in the interest of every citizen, by simply postponing, delaying or refraining from decision in another system overburdened by administrative incompetence. 
> ...


A follow-up

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## Fanie

> SAPS
> Attention: 
> 
> Dear Sir/Madam
> RE: RIGHTS OF SA CITIZENS
> The high level and intensity of crime that citizens are being subjected to in South Africa refers. We are all aware of the unabated deaths of not only citizens but of police men and women on a daily occurrence. The police, who are also citizens, have been appointed with the provisions of the Law to Protect and Serve.
> I grew up with a respect for any uniformed member of the armed services, who were respected for the very nature of their duty, which brings them into direct contact with the worst that crime has to offer.
> Unfortunately the level of crime has escalated to a level where a handful of police can not be expected to contain or challange crime alone. If this was not the case then crime would be almost none existent – and South Africa would not be considered as one of the most dangerous countries with one of the highest crime rates in the world.
> It is to this end that I wish to submit a reasoning that a by-law attempt to make citizens even more vulnerable and defenceless against criminals as well as make the police more susceptible to become victims as a small entity that has to face crime on it's own.
> ...


Letter to the Poloce

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## tec0

The disarmament and or removal of the public’s defensive capability was a serious act against any South African’s right to life as he/she can no longer fend off illegally armed attackers. Thus the police singlehandedly handed over the South African Citizen to what is now a criminal heaven. 

That said, a simple hand held weapon is useless against 6 attackers armed with fully automatic assault weaponry designed for military use. The ammunition alone is military grade ammunition and is designed to do maximum damage against armoured targets thus civilians have no recourse. 

Even if you can buy a fully automatic weapon, you will need training with that weapon as well as an understanding how to maintain the weapon properly. To this end I agree that new weapon holders must be trained to respect, handle and care for a firearm. That said the process must not be as difficult as possible. 

In Canada you will find very little deaths due to the use of firearms. That said they are the most armed society to date. So responsibility is key to a successful integration of firearms. 

If the police want a safer society then arm your law-abiding citizens with proper firearms “fully automatic assault rifles” so that they can fight back against the illegally armed attackers. A simple hand held weapon is no longer sufficient force. The law-abiding citizens must be able to fight for their lives “by any means available” to her/him. 

An Armed society is a polite society and criminals will face a higher resistance than ever before. So we must not only ask that our right to firearms be restored but to further our right towards the owning of more powerful firearms so that we can match the criminal’s firepower thus allowing us to defend ourselves better.

That said we must identify possible problems “alcoholics” and “drug abusers” makes for bad gun owners thus I also agree that weapons control is to be implement to control weapon’s abuse. To this end a heavily armed  society will need a properly trained police system. 

We have many rights, the right to be protected, the right to life and the right to own property is only half of it, we also have a right to responsibility.

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## Fanie

> We have many rights, the right to be protected, the right to life and the right to own property is only half of it, we also have a right to responsibility.


Nobody can 'protect' you, Tec0, that is why you have rights under the Constitution.
The police cannot protect you because they cannot sit around you to make sure you are staying alive !  You yourself are responsible for protecting your own life, but the Police can protect your rights when you acted within those given to you !
Also keep in mind it's not about the police, it's about the public who is everything, the whole country is made up out of the public, even the police and the government !

People sheepishly believe the crap they see on tv, like the police announcing they will 'protect' the public.  Canot happen as they are not responsible for your 'Right to Life'.

If you want people to act responsibly then allow them to have responsibilities, if you take away all responsibilities then no one needs to act responsibly, and laws and rules cannot think.




> That said we must identify possible problems “alcoholics” and “drug abusers” makes for bad gun owners thus I also agree that weapons control is to be implement to control weapon’s abuse.


The previous Law indicated you cannot own a firearm license if you are a criminal, are not mentally ok and you must have a place of safekeeping for the forearm.  Ok very roughly put, there are other cryteria too, but those are the basic ones.




> If the police want a safer society then arm your law-abiding citizens with proper firearms “fully automatic assault rifles” so that they can fight back against the illegally armed attackers.


LOL, mostly 'fully automatic assault rifles' will not be reqired unless there are very special conditions - in which case the military is supposed to step in.  A semi-automatic rifle can however be obtained legally.  Many of us kept our R1 rifles after the war, had mine for about 5 years, and nobody was attacked by those that had them.  Was a shame we had to give them back though :-(

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## tec0

The truth is, people need to match the force they are up against, and if the criminal have access to military grade weaponry then we must be given the same access legally. Mach force with force and the criminal will find themselves out gunned and outnumbered. Thus the police will have a much easier time protecting the public. 

Secondly it is actually illegal for any country to have its military deployed against their own people as stipulated by the UN “special conditions do exist but not without close UN attention”    

The truth is, if the public demand the right to firearms and their numbers are grate and there argument well documented a law can be past.

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## Outspoken

Please then explain this reality.  My son's friend, a young lady and her friend were stopped by the police in Pretoria and accused of running a red robot, which was untrue.  They were taken in a police vehicle into Mamelodi, somewhere, stripped, photographed and etc. etc.  She was able to activate her 'tracker' device on her cell phone to alert her father and was they were then quickly taken to a holding cell for the night.  They are now,  both incredibly traumatised!!!!  What can one possibly do about this dreadful violation????  We are run by a Gangster state!  This incident follows the disappearance of a Pretoria University student three weeks ago!!!  I ask, when are law-abiding citizens, big business going to unite and begin to DO something against this terror campaign that, I believe is being orchestrated by this Government????

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## Fanie

I hope you reported it, and absolutely get the media involved.  It may not be easy for the kids, but if they do it it may prevent not only the same to happen to them again, but it may prevent it from happening to others !

Also. if I'm not mistaken the police may not stop any one any more.  If there was a traffic violation they have to post the ticket.  Gawd alone knows but it more and more looks like they employ the criminals as police :-(

SA has come a long way if you think along the lines of how everything has deteriorated to eh.  Take note of your rights, they are all we have to go by to keep us one step ahead.

It seems the more 'ammendments' are made the more disastrous SA is becoming - goes to show the original writers of the Constitution / Law was not so stupid after all !  Wonder how these morons think they can 'improve' any of it - although perhaps they deliberately want everything to crash.

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## murdock

when you see cases like the one about the farmer who was stabbed and wife and 2 year old daughter hacked with a panga then killed...i believe we have a problem with our society...no matter how many police you put on the ground...jails are not rehabilitating criminlas they are teaching them better tricks and turning from petty thieves into hardened criminals...until we adopt a eye for an eye attitude the crime will just get worse and more frequent.

hijackings were things which happened to other people now it has just become another fact of life living in south africa.

what is the rape stats...one every 20 seconds?

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## Fanie

> Please then explain this reality.  My son's friend, a young lady and her friend were stopped by the police in Pretoria and accused of running a red robot, which was untrue.  They were taken in a police vehicle into Mamelodi, somewhere, stripped, photographed and etc. etc.  She was able to activate her 'tracker' device on her cell phone to alert her father and was they were then quickly taken to a holding cell for the night.  They are now,  both incredibly traumatised!!!!  What can one possibly do about this dreadful violation????  We are run by a Gangster state!  This incident follows the disappearance of a Pretoria University student three weeks ago!!!  I ask, when are law-abiding citizens, big business going to unite and begin to DO something against this terror campaign that, I believe is being orchestrated by this Government????


The advice I got -




> Hi,
> 
> Hulle moet onmiddelik ‘n saak open van onregmatige arrestasie, onregmatige aanhouding en skending van hulle mense regte (die hele reeks)!
> 
> Dit moet geopen word teen die individue, die stasie bevelvoerder, hoof van polisie en minister.
> 
> Dan moet hulle ook ‘n siviele saak open teen dieselfde individue.
> 
> Groete

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Outspoken (02-Aug-11)

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## murdock

> Please then explain this reality.  My son's friend, a young lady and her friend were stopped by the police in Pretoria and accused of running a red robot, which was untrue.  They were taken in a police vehicle into Mamelodi, somewhere, stripped, photographed and etc. etc.  She was able to activate her 'tracker' device on her cell phone to alert her father and was they were then quickly taken to a holding cell for the night.  They are now,  both incredibly traumatised!!!!  What can one possibly do about this dreadful violation????  We are run by a Gangster state!  This incident follows the disappearance of a Pretoria University student three weeks ago!!!  I ask, when are law-abiding citizens, big business going to unite and begin to DO something against this terror campaign that, I believe is being orchestrated by this Government????


this kind of story is also just becoming a way of life in south africa...most women dont report it it due to the embarressment and most times they have been for a night out and might be a little tipsy so they get threatened with all sorts of things then taken advantage of...i heard this is especially common with indian policemen taking white women  for a ride (i heard a story like this just a couple of week ago again) they apparently follow women who are alone or 2 of them in the car driving home or between parties...threaten them...then get them to perform sexual favour to so that they dont get arrested.
i suppose if you are forced into making a decision...do you go to jail and get a criminal record or perform a sexual act chances are you gona go with the later.


spending a night in jail just for jumping a red robot also sounds like some part of the story is missing

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## mbsmit

Hi there,

Sorry, but in my opinion, firearms are needless. There are other ways of defending yourself, such as pepper-spray, stun guns/batons and more. Why not rather use non-lethal protection?

Regards

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## Sparks

Exactly why we ended up with apartheid. A total lack of decency, responsibility, respect, consideration or foresight.

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## murdock

> Hi there,
> 
> Sorry, but in my opinion, firearms are needless. There are other ways of defending yourself, such as pepper-spray, stun guns/batons and more. Why not rather use non-lethal protection?
> 
> Regards


nothing like going into a gun fight with a pen knife  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 

not everyone is an ex gang member who knows how to street fight...not only that would you like to protect your family with a baton while thugs ransak your house armed with firearms...sounds like you live in the cape or PE where ther eis no violent crime.

please remind me how many firearms have gone missing from the police.

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## mbsmit

> nothing like going into a gun fight with a pen knife 
> 
> not everyone is an ex gang member who knows how to street fight...not only that would you like to protect your family with a baton while thugs ransak your house armed with firearms...sounds like you live in the cape or PE where ther eis no violent crime.
> 
> please remind me how many firearms have gone missing from the police.


Hi there,

As a matter of fact, I do and could not be happier :-). I partially agree with your statement. Perhaps people should buy themselves a stun-gun and rather make use it as a first resort and use a firearm as a last resort.

The problem, in my opinion, is that people would reach for their gun in matters that does not call for it, where a stun-gun or pepper spray, would have provided a simpler and safer alternative without drastically increasing the risk on their part.

Well, this debate have been going on for many many years already... Have a nice day.

Regards,
Mr Smit

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## murdock

we had 2 hijackings in our area..the second one resulted in the death of 2 hijackers...both shot dead while attempting to hijack a vehicle in the driveway...if they were shot with a stun gun...chances are we would still be having hijackings in our area....

now we have a problem...because they are stealing a vehicle a night...the problem they wear boxer shorts and no shirt so it is difficult to shoot someone if they are dressed in this manner armed with an allen key and a small weigh to break the locks...the last ones were shot with 200 rounds from a paint ball gun...both suspected thieves (caught in the act) were floored...and the thefts continue...and to add now we are having house breaking during the day....there are 6 occupants driving around in a white toyota stallion....last seen cruising the area on sunday morning at 3.30 am...now just think if just 2 or better still all six were shot dead...problem solved...message to other wanna be thieves...dont f^&*k around in that area otherwise you will end up dead...saving the tax payer lots of money...saving the insurance comapnies...allowing us to sleep between 2 and 5 am without having to worry about your car being stolen...house being broken into...wife and child being attacked...etc etc...you have to make the punsihment work...otherwise you might as well keep putting higher fences...more security gates...bullet proof windows on your car...you wanna live in a cage...I DONT.

you send out the right message...they can go rob other people who want to worry about kissing and making up...feeling sorry for the poor crimminal......i can assure you it has nothing to do with putting food on the table....like they say with drugs it starts off with a little weed then grows...hence the ban on drugs...same thing with crimminlas...it starts off with petty crimes...by the first lot of rehab in prison they are ready to move to the next level...been gang raped by tiny...tattoed and beads inserted in their dicks and ready for action...and so the problem grows.

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## tec0

If a knife if founded in your car or on your person it counts as a concealed weapon thus you are considered to be armed. Thus if someone shoots you "with a legal firearm" he/she can claim you where armed with something most of us consider to be a basic tool. I am not saying they will get away with it. I am saying you will be considered to be armed. 

So if the law stays the same regardless of the weapon why must the weapon be none lethal? See the laws are the problem not the weapon. Fact is criminals obtain there firearms illegally and in most cases it is weapons designed for war not self defence. 

So if you truly believe that a paper-ball will stop an armed attacker with weaponry designed to be both powerful lethal and capable to shoot trough a car like a hot knife through butter, it becomes clear that carrying just a handgun, paintball gun or knife is no longer efficient. 

You need to be able to respond with the same lethal intend meaning a weapon that is fully automatic and able to suppress, harm and or if necessary eliminate your attacker. Add proper training in the mix and you may stand a chance to fight back against the growing crime.

The laws must change...

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## AndyD

> You need to be able to respond with the same lethal intend meaning a weapon that is fully automatic and able to suppress, harm and or if necessary eliminate your attacker....... 
> 
> ......The laws must change...


I can't say I'd be in favour of fully automatic weapons in the hands of the general population.

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## mother

> Why not rather use non-lethal protection?


Seriously?!

I disagree. I prefer not to have a firearm in the house, because I have little children. But I do carry a flame thrower... too tricky for little fingers to operate, but super efficient up to about 6m. It throws a ball of fire roughly 1m in diameter. I pray I never have to use it; but if my kids are in danger, I will roast the bugger!

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## tec0

> Seriously?!
> 
> I disagree. I prefer not to have a firearm in the house, because I have little children. But I do carry a flame thrower... too tricky for little fingers to operate, but super efficient up to about 6m. It throws a ball of fire roughly 1m in diameter. I pray I never have to use it; but if my kids are in danger, I will roast the bugger!


I would imagine that it is an effective weapon this flame thrower... But I think you may have the wrong idea about a gun... It is not suppose to be in your sock-drawer for example. It is suppose to be in a safe that is locked with a key that is normally hidden and or placed in a safe place. 

Secondly any weapon can kill a person. Your flame thrower for example can easily directly and or indirectly kill a person. Or do permanent damage... 

That said how long will it take you to arm yourself with your weapon of choice "gun, flame thrower, knife, paint ball gun and so on and so forth" Time yourself, you will be surprised to know that you can double your reaction time because of shock. Not to worry this is true for both men and women.

So it really doesn't matter what you use, you will only get one chance to use it. All I can say is: 

Be vigilant
Be careful 
Avoid being alone
Avoid isolated arias. 




> I can't say I'd be in favour of fully automatic weapons in the hands of the general population.


How many bullets does it take to harm and or kill a person? Just one.... So in all honesty you don't need a fully automatic weapon unless if you have more than 1 attacker and you need to suppress them.

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## Blurock

It is the duty of a state (Government) to protect its citizens. In our case the government is failing dismally. Laws are ineffective due to (some) corrupt policemen and politicians. 

We often read about prisoners escaping or criminals going free on a technicality. Police are not well trained and sometimes mess up crime scenes so that evidence is destroyed. Criminals (including organised crime) know that the statistics are in their favour and the chances of getting caught is slim. If they do get caught, the conviction rate is low due to a weak legal system.

I have been fortunate that I have not been a victim of serious crime. I do not want to carry a gun, but I can understand why some people feel that they should go to extremes to protect their families. If the State did their duty, we would not have to live in a war zone. :Gun Bandana:

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## mbsmit

> Seriously?!
> 
> I disagree. I prefer not to have a firearm in the house, because I have little children. But I do carry a flame thrower... too tricky for little fingers to operate, but super efficient up to about 6m. It throws a ball of fire roughly 1m in diameter. I pray I never have to use it; but if my kids are in danger, I will roast the bugger!


Wow! I wouldn't want to end up in your house at midnight :-). I do not have a firearm, or any other lethal weapon in my possession, and doubt I ever will. I own 2 cans of pepper-spray, 1 stun-gun and a stun baton. All of these are effective, easy to use and most of all - SAFE. If a kid accidentally comes across it, it has several safety measures and even if they do get past them - the odds of them getting killed is VERY slim (perhaps a little pain, but not death).

I have never had to use them, and I pray I never will. But anyway, If I do need them I have them at my disposal. I will find it hard to take another persons life - even if he/she had the plan to take mine - I haven't got it in me.

But anyway - we all have our own ideas, ideals and opinions in this matter - and it will be hard for anyone to win a debate like this. Similar to the Windows vs. Linux or maybe the Microsoft Office vs Open Office debate.

Regards,
Mr Smit

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## AndyD

> But I do carry a flame thrower... too tricky for little fingers to operate, but super efficient up to about 6m. It throws a ball of fire roughly 1m in diameter. I pray I never have to use it; but if my kids are in danger, I will roast the bugger!


I hope you have alternative accomodation available (and fire insurance) if you ever confront a burglar with your flame thrower.

Did you make this contraption yourself or did you buy it locally?

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## mother

> I hope you have alternative accomodation available


 ... which is why I pray I never have to use it! LOL!

I bought it from one of those travelling salesmen (you know, the kind that sell all sorts of freaky gadgets). It's surprisingly simple: it works on the same principle as the "doom + lighter" party trick, only this one uses pepper spray + what looks like lighter fluid. If you squeeze the trigger, the initial flame is a small blue one; then you press down on the pepper spray with your thumb, and it's "koebaai Meraai".

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## wynn

The cop's were looking for a sneezing suspect who was dyed red and had his hair and eybrows burned off.  :Wink:

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## AndyD

I'm sure the cops would be looking but it's pretty medium rare that they ever catch the guy.  :Smile:

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## mother

You're cooking, boys!! Well done!

 :Rofl:

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## Dave A

Seeing as you have the flame thrower, I suspect you're the one that's doing the cooking, mother  :Stick Out Tongue:

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## murdock

lucky its not petrol driven...imagine the cost to run it

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## Blurock

> So it really doesn't matter what you use, you will only get one chance to use it. All I can say is: 
> 
> Be vigilant
> Be careful 
> Avoid being alone
> Avoid isolated arias.


I believe that neighbours should watch out for each other. I don't know how many neighbourhood watches are still operating and how effective they are, but that sounds like a good deterrent.

In our suburb we use Sun Cell Watch which works very well. Our crime stats are very low with only the (very) occasional opportunistic petty crime reported. A resident will report suspicious activity via SMS. The control room will filter the report and then send out SMS warnings to members only in that street or vicinity. The message is also relayed to the police and security companies.  :Detective: 

Should a crime be committed, the response is often there before residents realise what is going on. By residents being vigilant and keeping an eye on suspicious cars, loiterers etc, the baddies quickly realise that the community is involved and vigilant and that they may not get away with what they were planning to do. :Batman:

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