# General Business Category > Marketing Forum >  Which is more important, products or marketing?

## robinsonwang

To most of the ebusiness companies, they are always been troubled by this.  

Is the produtcts the most important parting for the ebusiness company, such as amazon, overstock, dinodirect,starzmart?  If you want to buy a good quality products, which site will you go?

For the marketing part, we know there are cpc marketing, cpm marketing, cps marketing and so on. Is the marketing way deciding how wonderful the company is now?

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## Justloadit

Marketing is important, how else will you know where to buy.

If I could buy direct from the manufacturer, I would feel more confident that I would get the after sales service because of the manufacturers reputation, and would feel that I would get my goods after paying up front for them.
When buying high value items via an eWeb site, I feel very open risk of loosing my money, so I avoid it.

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## Newretailer

Marketing is the most important in the short term, but for the longer term you need good quality product, so I would say a good balance of the two. Without marketing you don't stand too much of a chance to get off the ground.

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Dave A (16-Dec-11), tec0 (17-Dec-11)

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## wynn

A good product backed up by good service does it's own marketing.
Obviously you will have to do the necessary to get known, but huge amounts of marketing won't rectify a tarnished reputation.

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SilverNodashi (28-Apr-12), tec0 (17-Dec-11)

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## Blurock

Although both are important, no amount of marketing will support a bad product.

There was the case of the dog food manufacturer in the USA. Huge marketing campaign and smart packaging resulted in all stock being sold out within 2 weeks. It obviously appealed to the dog owners.

Second batch delivered, but it just sat on the shelves. Research then revealed that the dogs did not like it!
This is also a lesson in identifying your target market. :Cool:

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tec0 (17-Dec-11)

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## tec0

Good marketing of a product creates awareness but as stated a bad product remains a bad product. That said a good product is probably your best marketing tool to have. If the product is a quality product you will get repeat business and the more important “person to person recommendation” that is priceless for any product. 

So in my opinion balance between good market strategies and quality goods must be maintained for success.

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## jsjullia

If we see shortly than Marketing is the best. But in deep seances Both things are the most important because both are incomplete without the second. If you have good product and not have marketing than its sell is less and without product marketing is impossible.

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## Blurock

Chicken and egg situation? Without a product, what will you be marketing? :Smile:

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## robinsonwang

> Marketing is the most important in the short term, but for the longer term you need good quality product, so I would say a good balance of the two. Without marketing you don't stand too much of a chance to get off the ground.


I can't be more agree with you!
To find a way to keep long term good quality is hard and to find a short term efficient marketing way is also important.

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## Missnancyalex

Amazon and overstock are the biggest name of the online industry. How they became so big? Only answer of this question is Marketing
Did you know about spotify? It became the biggest brand of songs industry in no time because of marketing. So according to me Marketing is compulsory for every business to get recognize.

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## Raymond Smit

Which is more important products or the marketing = Neither! the market is the most important. You need a market with a 
predetermined need so that you can have a product to fill that need. After which you shall select the most cost effective way
to reach the market and sell them.

Let's put it this way - who would sell more hamburgers if me and you both had a hamburger stand? The one with the hungriest
crowd!

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## Dave A

> Which is more important products or the marketing = Neither! the market is the most important.


I like your out-of-the-box thinking, but here's a thought to chew on - a Warren Buffet-ism.
Don't serve the market. The market is there to serve you.

Confused?




> You need a market with a predetermined need so that you can have a product to fill that need. After which you shall select the most cost effective way to reach the market and sell them.


In hard-core consumerism, if you don't have a market, create one through marketing  :Devil2: 

Final parting thought on needy markets:
It is better to have a product that the market *wants* rather than a product that the market *needs*.

Now let's see if you can figure out why?  :Big Grin:

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tec0 (07-Feb-12)

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## wynn

'Pull Marketing' when you have a product or service and you dangle it in front of clients and they follow.

'Push Marketing' when you have a product or service and you guide (shove) your clients into buying

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## Miro Bagrov

Both.. 
Product is a part of marketing.
Marketing = Product + Place + Price + .... ? Right?

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## Apps4SouthAfrica

A good marketer can sell just about anything, but the customer won´t be coming back for more if the product is no good.  On the other hand if you have a good product and nobody knows about it, then you sure aren´t going to make any money either and sometimes people need to be informed about options including yours.  Some of the best products I´ve bought were things I didn´t even know existed until I saw someone else using them.  

When it comes to marketing, not all techniques are made equal either - word of mouth (which can only be achieved with a quality product) is by far the best marketing tool you could ever have.  It costs less than most marketing techniques but definitely requires a top product and excellent customer service.  A less superior product can also be sold - but will require marketing that costs more money.

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## tec0

Creating a need or identifying a need, I find that some businesses do well to apply both strategies. An easy example would be security systems. The need for a cheap effective system is already there. So now you provide client with a cheap system. 

Now you can add value to the product by creating a new market for it "installation and servicing" your company for example can give the client an option to have their equipment installed and then include a service contract to maintain it.  Now some clients may want servicing others not but still if you don’t put it on the table how would you know?

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## Blurock

> A good marketer can sell just about anything, but the customer won´t be coming back for more if the product is no good.


Well said. All the marketing in the world will not sustain a bad product. :Wink:

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## kate

Both of them are important.But in my opinion,marketing is more important.Because though you have good quality product,but others don't know it ,and you don't know who want it,as a result,they will not buy your product and you will miss the market.Like me ,if I haven't marketing ,I haven't introduce my product ,I will not realize which is my best market.and my product will store in my warehouse.

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## Just Gone

> Let's put it this way - who would sell more hamburgers if me and you both had a hamburger stand? The one with the hungriest
>  crowd!


Nope ..... the one with the better hamburgers will sell far more !  Word of a bad product spreads quicker than a virus .......

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## kate

There is no doubts that quality is very importang ,but at the same time ,the good product should be showed to customer,in other words,the goods should have markets.

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## Blurock

Without a product, what would you be marketing?

A product satisfies a specific need in the market. The marketer only marries the product to the need. :Wink:

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## robinsonwang

So most of the time, both of the products and marketing methods are important to some condition. If at a right time, they can help each other!

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## shani

in my opinion,products is most important.

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## BusNavig8

This is how the story goes - There was a well known shampoo manufacturer that launched a new range and the graphic designer (bored) added in the label - enriched with say (Cant remember the exact names) QE10. The labels were printed before he (did I really say HE!)  could correct his error and remove it. It was shipped out all over. Then the label was corrected for the next batch. The toll free consumer line was backed up with complaints that the product no longer worked, that their hair lost it s lustre etc. They, due to consumer pressure had to reinstate the initial label. NOW the point is, is this a marketing or a product issue?

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## BusNavig8

> Although both are important, no amount of marketing will support a bad product.
> 
> There was the case of the dog food manufacturer in the USA. Huge marketing campaign and smart packaging resulted in all stock being sold out within 2 weeks. It obviously appealed to the dog owners.
> 
> Second batch delivered, but it just sat on the shelves. Research then revealed that the dogs did not like it!
> This is also a lesson in identifying your target market.


Dont know if this is so much a marketing problem as much as a lack of research into what the demand would be for the product and what that need would be . I.E did they give it to dogs to eat before they manufactured it. Or it they werent the manufacturers, and merely took the product to market, should have ensured that there was a want for the product - In this case not the owners but the dogs! - so the question still begs surrounding the research issue.

I believe that it is an error of perception to say for eg, if you are promoting online sales of airtime, to say "there are 10 million users of the product". That may be true, but what part of that market do you have ACCESS to. Marketing is all about your accessible market and not about the market size, after taking into account that the market size is big enough for you to operate in. (I often use the Brand Development Index to calculate this)

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## Just Gone

> The labels were printed before he (did I really say HE!)


lol ....... no I'm sure you didnt and just made a mistake  :Wink:

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## jasonpat

In the trade world the most important thing is product because this is the thing which make customer satisfaction but for this you guys need marketing so both depend upon each others.

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## Blurock

A Product satisfies a particular need in the market. A lot of research and development goes into the product before it is ready to go to market.

Only once you have a saleable product can you really start marketing that product. What will you market if there is no product? Thin air?   :Wink:

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## BusNavig8

I have thought about this subject quite a lot lately and come to the conclusion that you cannot separate these two issues. They go together and ate equally important and one does not rank higher than the other. Whilst it is true without a product there would be nothing to market, it is also true that marketing has been the failure of many a company with a good sale able product. The essence of commerce is to have a good/service and profit out of it. Now if this was true then there is no or it is an AND and therefore equally ranked

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## Blurock

The answer in my humble opinion is; make a good product that can compete with anything out there, then find a good marketer to promote and sell the product for you. Chances are if you are a good manufacturer, you will not be a good marketer or sales person. It requires different disciplines and capabilities. Very few people or companies have mastered both.

As a marketer, you need to find a solid, reliable product to market and sell, or else it will come back to bite you. With a reputation in tatters, you will find it very hard to survive in a dog-eats-dog world!

Analyse this and you will find that you will never be able to sustain a bad product with good marketing. A good quality product is therefore essential in the long run. :Badpc:   :Big Grin:

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## Justloadit

Yes but how does a customer become aware of your good product?

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## adrianh

Marketing is 99% of sales. Mircosoft, Apple and hordes of other companies sell stuff long before they are ready. We simply accept it because we trust the brand. Homechoice, Verimark and many other companies simply market the hell out of the garbage that they sell. Those companies do well because people are SHEEP who are willing to buy any crap if it is pushed up their noses all the time.

Remember that people are willing to spend R8 on a bottle of water that is supposidly from some well in some nonexistant mountain range. Talk about sheep, people just accept the marketing schplurb and hand over the cash.

Don't kid yourselves, we are all sheep following marketers around. We buy into fashion, be it clothing or cars, we buy whatever rubbish Pick and Pay sells because their marketig says its good and on sale.

Kids want Blackberry phones because thier friends have Blackberry phones, not because they are good phones, because marketing turned them into status symbols. Women buy Prada, Gucci and all sorts of other stuff due to marketing...no other reason.

All it takes to kill a product is one incident that creates enough negative marketing (publicity)

Although I despise advertising and marketing I can clearly see how effective it is.

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## Blurock

> Yes but how does a customer become aware of your good product?


Spot on! Or what would you sell if you do not have a product? I think BusNavig8 has summed it up neatly - you can not separate the two. See #29 :Cool:

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## Kgashane

From where I stand, neither the product or the marketing is more important.

I mean, without the product, what do you have to market? Conversely,
without marketing, how will potential customers or clients know about
your product?

Conclusion: both the product and the marketing are equally important.

Albert Mpuru

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## adrianh

I disagree. 

The term "Selling ice to an Eskimo" comes to mind"

Stupid people will buy anything  when it is marketed well.

You buy household insurance based on marketing NOTHING ELSE.

The point is that the mere illusion of a product sells the product, not the product itself. Buying a house off-plan is buying an illusion (an idea)

Why do certain people drive certain cars, marketing (even if those cars are crap)

Why do you go to a new restaurant, marketing (you've never tasted the food nor seen the menu yet you are led to believe that it is good)

Remember that marketing isn't this big machine driven by big companies, it is a process of training people to WANT your product/brand/service. That thraining can be via many mechanisms including recomendation from friends.

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BusNavig8 (11-Oct-12)

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## BusNavig8

I agree totally with the last post. Marketing is everything. My problem often is though especially as a small business is you market so well and then you run around trying to source the product at the right price in the right time!

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## adrianh

I have a similar problem. My products sell themselves and I simply cannot keep up with demand. Becuase our manufacturing is too slow we end up taking deposits to cover expenses. What then happens is that those deposits cover past expenses but the final payment cannot be collected fast enough to bring the income  in line with direct costs incurred to create that product. What we have done to try and combat the problem is to tone down the sales of low income items and to drive the development of efficient manufacturing processes of very high value items.

I have a couple of mantra's that I now live by that helps the process;

Follow the money
 I carefully weigh up our oppertunities in terms of time vs our income. If the time that we spend doesn't add value to the creation of a high value income stream then the the oppertunity is handed off to somebody else.

Focus (based on something Steve Jobs said)
Focus does not mean saying YES to the things that you can do, it means saying NO to 1000's or brilliant ideas. 
I used to make this mistake all the time. I would take on any job that I knew that I could do because it would generate some income. What I learned is to have a very narrow high value focus and to drive that product. Yes one can drive other products that fall within the scope and rollout plan but the general idea is not to waste energy on doing lots of things badly but rather to focus on doing a handful of thing brilliantly.

And the last mantra (Something that occured to me a couple of daus ago) - Fold big numbers into small numbers.

What I mean is this; lets say I need to get in R80,000 this month. I can think of it as R20K per week or R2K a day. But lets say I manufacture a product that I sell for R10K. When I fold the big number into small numbers I am no longer faced with having to make R80K, I am now faced with having to produce 8 products. A lot of people would say so what, but it is easier for me to work with small numbers. All I now need to do is to establish what it would take to create 8 products, which seems a lot more manageable. By analogy; one could eat 1 elephant or 1000kg of meat. You could have 10 elephants or 1 herd of elephants. You could have 10 herds of elephants or one farm. Mentally this folding process makes it manageable in terms of figures. The bank has 100 branches and they want to add anothrr branch. The fact that the new branch has lots of its own features is relevant only within a particular frame of reference. I think this that this is what is meant by being able to see the big and the small picture simultaneously, if one is unable to scale your frame of reference to the data, then you need to scale the data to your frame of reference.

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Dave A (20-Oct-12)

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## Blurock

> My products sell themselves and I simply cannot keep up with demand.


Your products obviously sell due to word of mouth referrals, which is the best marketing in the world!

Adrian, you have a very good grasp of the importance of cash flow in the business. Cash flow is to a business what petrol is to a car. :Wink:

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## ians

coca cola comes to mind, they still advertise everywhere, Some say, the product should be banned it is apparently so bad for you, i have heard that if you put  a coin in a glass of coke it will be gone in the morning, but it taste so gooooood.

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## adrianh

@Blurock - cashflow (aka quick turnaround - product delivery) is the bane of my life...

...but... there is another side to it.

My financier / mentor gives us enough support to keep us right on the edge as opposed to giving us what we think we need to solve the problem. The effect is that we are totally focused on efficiency. Each step in the process of becoming more efficient is evolutionary and that learning is then carried over to other products and processes.

Here is an example. I got a contract to make 1:35 scale models of a particular armoured vehicle for a large company in Pretoria. We got 3 view drawings and I got a friend to draw a 3D model of the vehicle. I got the drawings back but it was quite apparent that though the drawings looked nice they were not suitable for machining (undercuts because he drew a perfect replica of the plans and 3D parts passing through one another). Ok, so I tossed that 3D model and redid it keeping machining issues in mind. Now I ended up with a 3D model that I could machine. The problem with a 3D model that needs to be machined top, left, right, front and rear with undercuts caused by surfaces being at diffent planes is that you need at least a 6 axis mill to get in everywhere (I've ony got a 4 axis machine) Ok, so now I decide to chop the model up into its various surface planes and then to make each surface 1mm think and also make it that the different parts mate together at intersection isocurves. Cool, so now I have all the parts that need to be machined. I got a bright idea to turn each of those parts into a positive mold by splitting the part through its splitline and then seperating the part into 2 half moulds. The problem now is that one needs to take a silicone cast off that mould and then take a silicone cast off the silicone cast (yes I know its confusing) ...this mould of a mould nonsense was rolling aroung in my brain at 1am ths morning on my way to sleep. This moring I wake up and have a brainwave (to directly machine the negative master mould of each mould half. The implication is that I can now directly cast silicone moulds off this to be used to create the 2 silicone mould halves to make the part. A quick 30 minute change to all the drawings and it is all done.

Ok, I know that it is a complicated long winded story but the learning is profound. When I do another model from a plan I would do it in the appropriate scale keeping machining issues in mind and also create 1 mm thick wall with mating surfaces in appropriate planes and at appropriate angles. I will then take those parts and turn them into negative moulds to directly create the silicone mould halves.

The point that I am making is that I would never have gone through this learning process unless I was forced to be efficient as possible. Each step came in its own time and at its own pace. One might say, oh but that's obvious, hmmm...maybe once the entire process is condensed into step 1 and then step 2 as opposed to the entire drawn out learning process.

What is the bottom line: anything and everything in life is an evolving circular process in which the outputs should feed into the inputs so as to improve the next iteration of the process (like a fuzzy logic neural network). Maybe that is why some of us find it hard to let go of something once other people think the product is finished because we always see ways of doing it better. It took me a very long time to learn that one needs to call it version 1 and let it go, then put all the learnings into the next version. That way the product gets out the door and the next product is better.

Where does this leave product vs marketing. Both are processes that should work and evolve hand in hand. There is no point in marketing unless you are able to deliver and no point in producing stock unless you are able to market the product. 

*...but as usual there is something more important than product and marketing and that is market research - There is no point in producing and marketing something that nobody wants*

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## Rafael

The product has to be great to keep existing clients coming back but its the Marketing which is important. I know lots of places that make a better burger than macdonalds yet even though their product is better there is no marketing.


Then obviously its the after sales service.

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## Justloadit

> The product has to be great to keep existing clients coming back but its the Marketing which is important. I know lots of places that make a better burger than macdonalds yet even though their product is better there is no marketing.
> 
> 
> Then obviously its the after sales service.


If you referring to the burger, do you mean contacting the customer and offering one or two ply toilet paper for use later in the day?  :Stick Out Tongue:

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## Blurock

> Where does this leave product vs marketing. Both are processes that should work and evolve hand in hand. There is no point in marketing unless you are able to deliver and no point in producing stock unless you are able to market the product. 
> 
> *...but as usual there is something more important than product and marketing and that is market research - There is no point in producing and marketing something that nobody wants*


@ adrian, you are quite right. The one supports the other. They are inter related. 

I have had many clients over the years who got stuck on the process. Entrepreneurs and especially people who manufacture something are very proud of their work. The danger is that they sometimes do not see the bigger picture and concentrate too much on perfecting the product without paying attention to the market. 

The converse is also true; if you have a bad product, no effort in marketing or bullshitting is going to move the product. :Wink:

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## adrianh

I'm learning this ever so slowly. That armoured car wasted a huge amount of time in my trying to perfect a process. I'm busy helping a lady build a scale model of a building for her thesis and rather than getting myself caught up in the details, I asked her to come and sit by my side and direct me as to the level of detail that she wants. She can sit and watch me draw and she can direct me as to what to draw. I'm going to get her to glue all the pieces together herself, this way she will quickly decide what is important and what is not. I'm tired of killing myself trying to create a level of detail because it pleases me (I can do that in my own time one day) - The bottom line is to meet the customer's expectation in terms of quality, price and time. My view now is this - either they take what I produce off the shelf, they agree to a quote, or they hold my hand so that they can see what it takes (ok - sit on my lap  :Cool:  if it is a really pretty girl).

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## johndice

a great product will be the marketing itself. As long as the product keeps customers satisfied it will be easy to market.  :Smile:

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## JoanneTom

I guess focussing on making the product amazing means it has the potential to market itself through word-of-mouth, but I suppose focusing on marketing does get the word out. (Though I think people will be more likely to buy/use your product if they've heard about it from a friend!)

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## emersonkelly

Both product and marketing are both important but if the product is of best quality then automatically it get spread in the market and also among the customers with positive word of mouth publicity!!

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## Kgashane

The answer to the question, "which is most important between a product and marketing?" is to my mind clear...

Neither.

Product and marketing are both important. You can't market without a product, and you need marketing to sell your product. So the two should not be compared as if you have to choose one of them. You NEED both.

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Blurock (17-Mar-13)

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## adrianh

Of course you can market without a product, where do you think the term Vapourware came from. Many cars are marketed purely with 3D renderings. Do you consider a 3D rendering of a car that doesn't yet existto be a producr? Do you consider  a house marketed off-plan to be a product?

The question then is this: what is considered to be a product - is it something tangible, a service, does it actually have to exist (some people have their heads frozen cryogenically in the hope that they may be revived one day - what exactly are they buying other than hope). Churches market salvation at 10% of your earnings, are they selling a product or an idea?

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## Blurock

> Of course you can market without a product, where do you think the term Vapourware came from. Many cars are marketed purely with 3D renderings. Do you consider a 3D rendering of a car that doesn't yet existto be a producr? Do you consider  a house marketed off-plan to be a product?
> 
> The question then is this: what is considered to be a product - is it something tangible, a service, does it actually have to exist (some people have their heads frozen cryogenically in the hope that they may be revived one day - what exactly are they buying other than hope). Churches market salvation at 10% of your earnings, are they selling a product or an idea?


Marketing without a product or a service? So what will you show your audience or prospective customers? Will you tell them; "I am selling nothing..." :Confused:

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## adrianh

This is why one needs to define the concept of "product". Sony recently announced the Playstation 4 but they didn't have a working model to show at the launch, they simply claimed that it was still under development. Could you consider the machine to be a product that the time?

If you could consider the machine to be a product at the time then how is that different from me standing up and saying that I am developing a new space shuttle but it is under development.

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## Blurock

Sony has a product that is very much in demand. They have now announced that they have improved this product and that they will soon be selling the new product, called Playstation 4. 

What they are doing, is creating an expectation of a better, more advanced product, so that there is demand for their product when they are ready to release. The media hype thus created is free PR and the publicity helps to sell the product.

This is a strategy used by many companies such as Apple, Microsoft and Sony. Instead of pushing their products onto the market, they use market pull, which is far more effective.

Which ever way you look at it, there is always the promise of a product or a service in the end, unless you have a pyramid scheme, in which case you will just be selling lies. :Wink:

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## adrianh

We look at the world differently. 

I see the Playstation 4 as an idea only considering that it doesn't exist yet.

Put differently; if i have an idea and I call it "Playstation 4" - do I have I product?

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## adrianh

I'll take it a step further. Lets say Sony marketed the Playstation 1 in exactly the same way....They stood up and did a presentation without the actual device - did they have a product or not?

If you say they had a product then I would differ because there was no device, there was just an idea for a device.

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## Kgashane

> The question then is this: what is considered to be a product - is it something tangible, a service, does it actually have to exist (some people have their heads frozen cryogenically in the hope that they may be revived one day - what exactly are they buying other than hope). Churches market salvation at 10% of your earnings, are they selling a product or an idea?


I will not entertain your assertion that "Of course you can market without a product" because Blurock has already asked you a good question. I expect you to provide an answer to it. Then, and only then, will I decide if there is a need for me to follow up on this.

There are however two more things I think you don't understand...

1. In the context of the original question a product is obviously *something you can sell*. Whether that something is tangible or intangible does not matter. 

2. The idea that "churches market salvation at 10% of your earnings" is misdirected and misinformed. It takes the word "marketing" out of proportion and extends it to an area which has nothing to do at all with marketing. Such an idea can only come from a person who doesn't appreciate the context under which "10% of your earnings" operates ... and most probably from a person who is NOT a believer.

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Blurock (18-Mar-13)

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## adrianh

> I will not entertain your assertion that "Of course you can market without a product" because Blurock has already asked you a good question. I expect you to provide an answer to it. Then, and only then, will I decide if there is a need for me to follow up on this.


You expect me to provide and answer - excuse me, you have a terribly big chip on your shoulder. I couldn't care less whether you follow up on this or not, that is your choice. What part of open discussion do you not understand?

If you consider a believer to be a grown up who believes in Fairy Tales, then no I am not a believer. I also don't believe that my garden gnome will walk on my fishpond... Do you believe that Alice went down the rabbit hole?

Yes, churches market, they go around on Sunday pi$$ing the entire neigbourhood off by knocking on our doors begging for money and telling us that their specific God cares about us. Come come, they sell salvation at a price, the price is 10% of earnings and you have to promise to believe in their particular fairy tale.

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## adrianh

Ok Mr Cleverdick, so, If I stand up and proclaim that I have the Playstation 5.3 (which I can't demonstrate because it doesn't exist) then I am marketing a product....according to you I am...

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## Blurock

> Ok Mr Cleverdick, so, If I stand up and proclaim that I have the Playstation 5.3 (which I can't demonstrate because it doesn't exist) then I am marketing a product....according to you I am...


No, you are not marketing a product, you are just telling lies, because you did not have a product to begin with. 

If however, you had the next generation iPhone or Samsung, you can create demand by announcing this improvement on your existing device which will be released at a later date. There is a big difference.

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## Dave A

If someone parts with their money in expectation of something, I'd accept in modern jargon it's a product.

Prelaunch marketing just looks like a timing issue to me. It's still connected to a product - just one currently in development.

Of course, if there is no intent to ever produce the product - well that's heading into scam territory, surely.




> Do Churches Really "Market" Salvation at 10%?


Many charities market for donors - and quite often all the donor gets is a sense of righteousness. 

You just need to get cynical enough and then yes, churches "market" and they offer a "product"; although more often than not it's a bit more of a package deal than merely "salvation."

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## Blurock

We should also understand that marketing is much more than advertising and selling your products. People often confuse marketing and sales. Sales people generally do not like marketing people and vice versa. That is because they have a different focus on the business and the product.

In marketing, you start by analysing your market and trying to make sense of the research. Questions every business should ask is: 
What is unique about my business idea/product/service? Who are your target customers? How do you reach them? Who are your competitors? Can you effectively compete with them? How do you position your product - what message do you want to get across and how? What is your distribution strategy? The right distribution channel can often be an additional marketing channel. What is your unique selling proposition?

Only now can you start selling the product which  has been branded and packaged by the marketing division. Now we start talking sales techniques, how to approach potential customers, how to close a deal etc.  :Wink:

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## adrianh

> Ok Mr Cleverdick, so, If I stand up and proclaim that I have the Playstation 5.3 (which I can't demonstrate because it doesn't exist) then I am marketing a product....according to you I am...





> No, you are not marketing a product, you are just telling lies, because you did not have a product to begin with.


Blurock your argument does not make sense. You cannot say that the person is telling lies. If I have an idea for the next mousetrap and I go looking for an investor with my idea I be marketing the idea to the investor, not so?....will I be lying to him considering that I haven't built the mousetrap yet becauae I need his money to prove the concept?




> In marketing, you start by analysing your market and trying to make sense of the research. Questions every business should ask is: 
> What is unique about my business idea/product/service? Who are your target customers? How do you reach them? Who are your competitors? Can you effectively compete with them? How do you position your product - what message do you want to get across and how? What is your distribution strategy? The right distribution channel can often be an additional marketing channel. What is your unique selling proposition?


I sure as hell hope that companies do all of that long before they develop products. Saying that one should develop the product and then do the research is absurd.

Marketers can't even decide on a concise definition of the word "marketing" - hence 72 definitions of the term.
http://heidicohen.com/marketing-definition/

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## adrianh

Ok, lets take another example: Richard Branson runs around telling the whole world that his company will be selling tickets to the public for space rides in the near future. 
Is this not marketing? 
Is he not marketing an idea?
Is he not marketing the idea that his company will be fulfilling a dream?

Where is the product?
What is the product?

Is you say that the product is his vision the why can't I have a vision called "Playstation 5.3"?

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## Blurock

> Ok, lets take another example: Richard Branson runs around telling the whole world that his company will be selling tickets to the public for space rides in the near future. 
> Is this not marketing? 
> Is he not marketing an idea?
> Is he not marketing the idea that his company will be fulfilling a dream?
> 
> Where is the product?
> What is the product?
> 
> Is you say that the product is his vision the why can't I have a vision called "Playstation 5.3"?


Richard Branson (and some other millionaires) has already been on a space ride. What he is talking about is making that space ride commercially viable. Yes, he is pre-marketing the idea, which is based on something that already exists, even in a crude form. He is creating an expectation.

In your own words, Playstation 5.3 does not exist at all.

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## Blurock

> Blurock your argument does not make sense. You cannot say that the person is telling lies. If I have an idea for the next mousetrap and I go looking for an investor with my idea I be marketing the idea to the investor, not so?....will I be lying to him considering that I haven't built the mousetrap yet becauae I need his money to prove the concept?
> 
> I sure as hell hope that companies do all of that long before they develop products. Saying that one should develop the product and then do the research is absurd.


If you have an idea to pitch to an investor, it will remain an idea until developed into a product. The investor knows that the product does not exist and will take a decision to invest (not buy) into the project to develop the product. This decision will be taken on consideration of the risk, time to market, ROI etc. This is a pure investment decision and not a buying decision. 

It is much harder to develop from scratch and to get someone to buy into an undeveloped idea. Once you have a prototype, it is just as hard to pre-sell the product to people that can not even read 3D drawings.

Once you have established yourself as an innovative manufacturer and you have a market beating product such as a smart phone or a fancy car, it becomes much easier to market and pre-sell a product. Aircraft manufacturers for example can sell their product from plans, because their market can understand what they are looking at. They also have a proven track record and have products that are in demand, e.g. Boeing and Airbus. 

Buying a property off plan is similar; there is a piece of land, there is an approved plan (hopefully), there is infrastructure and services. That is totally different from selling pie in the sky.

I agree with you on the definitions of marketing. That is because people confuse the issues and because there are too many clever people in the world. :Cool:

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## adrianh

We will have to agree to disagree on the finer points of the defenition of the words "product" and "marketing"

I still contend that one can market an idea and that the idea does not have to represent a product, also that if the idea does represent a product that the product does not need to exist whilst being marketed.

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## Blurock

Yes we may disagree on the finer points, but the principles are the same. We may just call it by different names.

You may convince an investor to assist you to bring an idea to market by investing in the development of a product. That is an investor, not a buyer. You may however, only be able to sell a product once it exists, depending on your market and its demographics. To sell a product to a potential market, you have to convince the market of the benefits and features of the product. Even then your price, promotion and place have to fit in as well.  

I am currently involved in a company, trying to promote a new product. We have made prototypes and demonstration kits which we have taken to the market. Although everyone is exited and swooning over the product (to the extent that they want to buy shares in the company), nobody has bought yet. They want to see the final product and they want to see the promised SABS approval first.

If we were Apple, Samsung or Sony, they would buy our next generation products blindly, because of the established brands and the associated quality and innovation. Unfortunately we are just a local start-up company with good products, but no track record.

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## Kgashane

> You expect me to provide and answer - excuse me, you have a terribly big chip on your shoulder. I couldn't care less whether you follow up on this or not, that is your choice. What part of open discussion do you not understand?
> 
> If you consider a believer to be a grown up who believes in Fairy Tales, then no I am not a believer. I also don't believe that my garden gnome will walk on my fishpond... Do you believe that Alice went down the rabbit hole?
> 
> Yes, churches market, they go around on Sunday pi$$ing the entire neigbourhood off by knocking on our doors begging for money and telling us that their specific God cares about us. Come come, they sell salvation at a price, the price is 10% of earnings and you have to promise to believe in their particular fairy tale.


Your display of anger at me seems to me to be a clear sign that you are the one who doesn't understand what open discussion entails. 

Whenever any person makes a claim or an assertion in a public forum like this one for consideration and deliberation - in my opinion - they are expected to reply to conterclaims and opposing assertions. Someone else might reply to the counterclaims or opposing assertions - in which case it may not be necessary for the orignal claimant or assertor to reply.

In my view, if a person is serious about open debate and discussion they can't make a post and keep silent in the face of opposing, challenging ideas. And: when those opposing ideas come it is not in the spirit of open discussion to meet them with anger ... in other words, it is not appropriate to leave the ball and play the man.

Let me come back to the idea that "churches sell salvation at a price, and that this price is 10% of earnings". This idea is based on the fallacious premise that salvation is possible only if a person pays 10% of their earnings ... normally called *tithing*.

Any person who has a basic understanding of *The Plan of Salvation* knows that tithing does not give any person a passport to salvation. Put differently, no one can earn salvation with *money*. So I don't for once believe a true representative of God can go from house to house telling people they need to pay 10% of their earnings to be saved.

From my experience of people who visit people in their homes trying to get them to believe in God or in their particular religion these people don't raise the question of tithing. They all most probably start with the foundational principles of *faith, love and hope* ... the true principles of salvation. Then when people come to church they will learn about tithting - or 10% of your earnings as you put it. You can't tell people to pay 10% of their earnings unless - and until - you've managed to convert them into your faith.

If a particular church has been going "around on Sunday pi$$ing the entire neigbourhood off by knocking on our doors begging for money and telling us that their specific God cares about us. Come come, they sell salvation at a price, the price is 10% of earnings and you have to promise to believe in their particular fairy tale", the money they were "begging for" is definately *not* tithing. Not all money that a church asks or collects is tithing.

In case you misunderstand me, I'm not denying that churches market themselves. I simply don't agree with you that churches market salvation at 10% of your earnings.

To conclude, your contention that "*churches market salvation at 10% of your earnings*" does not hold water.

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## vieome

> Let me come back to the idea that "churches sell salvation at a price, and that this price is 10% of earnings". This idea is based on the fallacious premise that salvation is possible only if a person pays 10% of their earnings ... normally called *tithing*.


Sorry I hope you dont mind if I add my 2cents interuption here before the rand devalues yet again. Kgashane, I am just curious as to how tithing works. Lets say one goes to church every Sunday that is 52 two weeks in the year, but one earns salary Monthly , how is the tithe calculated, does one have to take annual salary and divide by 52 weeks so they can have money to put in basket every week, or does one simply contribute 10% of salary every month and pass the basket on on weeks of no income? Sorry just curious about this?

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## Blurock

Tithing is a voluntary contribution and is not calculated by the church or the minister, priest or whatever. There may be sects that apply this, but I have never come across any church from any denomination where tithing is enforced.

Actually tithing was practised in the Near East long before Christianity.  In Mesopotamia a 10% tithe or tax had to be paid to the local ruler. Tithes had to be paid to Samash, the sun-god and also to other gods such as Bel, Nabu, and Nergal. It appears as if this was a general practice in the Near East. Traditional Jewish law and practice has included various forms of tithing since ancient times. Traditional Jews commonly practice ma'aser kesafim (tithing 10% of their income to charity).

Genesis 14:18-20 is the first mention of tithing in the Bible. After rescuing Lot, Abraham met with Melchizedek and gave him a tenth of everything he has obtained from battle. Some Biblical teachings conclude that although tithing was practised extensively in the Old Testament, it was never practised or taught within the first-century Church. Instead the New Testament scriptures are seen as teaching the concept of "freewill offerings" as a means of supporting the church: 1 Corinthians 16:2, 2 Corinthians 9:7.

Any one who declares that you can buy your way into heaven is preaching a lie. The "tithe" is to the modern church what the issue of "circumcision" was to the church in Pauls time. I hope this clarifies some of the misunderstanding.

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Citizen X (19-Mar-13)

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## adrianh

eish....let me rather just keep quiet...

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## Nigel Hamilton

Here is a question thats going to get you all thinking...maybe even blow your minds!

when is a product, a product?
when can you start marketing it?

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## adrianh

I would love to hear the answer to Nigel's question.

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## Citizen X

> Here is a question thats going to get you all thinking...maybe even blow your minds!
> 
> when is a product, a product?
> when can you start marketing it?


I suppose when it has value....

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## adrianh

> I suppose when it has value....


Define "value"

Does an idea not have "value"?

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## Nigel Hamilton

> Define "value"
> 
> Does an idea not have "value"?


And there goes my coffee.... ha ha

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## vieome

> Define "value"
> 
> Does an idea not have "value"?


They (who ever they are) say ideas are worth nothing, it is only execution of an idea that gives it value. In a given case like say Sony, who already have developed PS1, I imagine they start marketing PS2 or PS3 only when they are in the process of executing it.  And in most cases what they are marketing is just an upgrade to an existing product. Most investors will not even listen to ones ideas, they normally want to see prototype, or that some kind of execution towards the idea that has been implemented.

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## adrianh

> They (who ever they are) say ideas are worth nothing, it is only execution of an idea that gives it value. In a given case like say Sony, who already have developed PS1, I imagine they start marketing PS2 or PS3 only when they are in the process of executing it. And in most cases what they are marketing is just an upgrade to an existing product. Most investors will not even listen to ones ideas, they normally want to see prototype, or that some kind of execution towards the idea that has been implemented.


In analogy:
So what do you do if you are Einstein and you know how to build a Nuclear Weapon but you just don't have Plutonium on hand to give it a go? - Is your idea worthless?

By the same token:
You are a real rocket scientist and you know exactly how to build a Warp drive - is the idea worthless? - Do you have to spend 10 Billion dollars of your own cash to prove the point?

Come come, you can't seriously believe that ideas have no real value.

The more I read this thread the more I realize exactly how closed minded people really are. I will buy an idea, my investor buys my ideas, some work out some don't.

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## adrianh

You know, the problem is this: 

Very, very few people are able to buy ideas because very, very few people have imaginations capable of seeing the value of those ideas. To be able to buy Einstein's ideas you would either have to be as clever as him or you would have to blindly trust him (very few people are able to do either)

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## Citizen X

> Define "value"
> 
> Does an idea not have "value"?


Fair point! You can start marketing a product/service or idea when it has value to the extent that consumers will actually be prepared to pay for it. I think you also have to look at return on investment, if you spending money on advertising and sales promotion and the idea doesn't proceed beyond conception alternatively it doesn't yield future revenue, then I suppose you lose your investment in the marketing.

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## vieome

> You know, the problem is this: 
> 
> Very, very few people are able to buy ideas because very, very few people have imaginations capable of seeing the value of those ideas. To be able to buy Einstein's ideas you would either have to be as clever as him or you would have to blindly trust him (very few people are able to do either)


Einstein had an idea about relativity, the only time the idea comes to value when he puts down a mathematical theory explaining his idea. e=mc2, prior to that it is just a thought in his head. 
 E(negery) = Mass times the Speed of Light (C) squared, once that explaination is given one does not have to be, as clever as Einstein to understand it. What Einstein did was execute his idea through the formula, giving the idea value. 

You go to investors with an idea, and all they do is say it will never work and then go on to excute the idea themselves. You can not patent ideas, if they had value then one would be able to patent them. Copyrights protect expression and patents protects inventions, and neither protect ideas. Your ideas might have value to you, but they have no value to the world until you execute them.

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## vieome

A bird in the hand is better than two in the bush bird=execution of idea   .....  bird in bush=idea

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## Blurock

> You go to investors with an idea, and all they do is say it will never work and then go on to excute the idea themselves. You can not patent ideas, if they had value then one would be able to patent them. Copyrights protect expression and patents protects inventions, and neither protect ideas. Your ideas might have value to you, but they have no value to the world until you execute them.


Yes and no. You can patent an idea. As long as you can describe and draw something, you can patent it. Not everyone can read technical drawings or understand technical jargon. That is why investors sometimes miss opportunities. They do not understand that specific industry and the potential products that will apply to that industry and its market.

The problem is also that you may think your idea is the best thing since toast, but nobody wants to buy it. That's because they either do not understand it, or they don't trust you to develop the idea into a product and bring it to market. Watch Dragon's Den on the Discovery channel and you will get an idea of what I'm saying.

If however you have a track record for manufacturing innovative, quality products, you only have to announce that you will start developing the new product to get potential customers interested - they may even place advance orders. e.g. Boeing, Apple etc.

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## adrianh

Oh well, I am happy to see the world the way that I do and I am happy to have many birds in many bushes....The fact that you lot see the world differently is perfectly ok, if it works for you then that is fine by me.

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## adrianh

> Your ideas might have value to you, but they have no value to the world until you execute them.


I beg to differ.

I would agree with you if you said the following:

Your ideas might have value to you, but they have no value to the world until you *express* them.


I don't need to execute them for them to have value.

Let me explain. My brother is one of those people who has many fingers in many pies, he is forever wheeling and dealing. We speak at length about many many topics. We spoke the other day about education, communications, branding etc and it dawned on me that one could use cellular communications in a particular way to not only further education but also to further brand awareness at the same time. It's one of those: Putting together of many birds in many bushes ideas. Anyhow, he thinks that the idea has merit and he is going to pursue it. If he makes money from it then I will make money from it. We have invested lots of money in ideas and those ideas span across many domains. The equipment that we have can be used to turn ideas into reality, and we do, on a daily basis. I execute some, he executes some, some are handed over to others and some just sit there in space.

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## Blurock

> Oh well, I am happy to see the world the way that I do and I am happy to have many birds in many bushes....The fact that you lot see the world differently is perfectly ok, if it works for you then that is fine by me.


You are lucky to have a brother who can understand your ideas. It is wonderful to have someone as a soundboard to throw ideas back at you.

Try taking your idea to an accountant or a banker and see how far you get. We are not saying that you are wrong, the reality is that very few people can conceptualise abstract ideas. That is why toolmakers will grow a sample for those mortals that do not know how to read a drawing. That is reality.

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## adrianh

> the reality is that very few people can conceptualise abstract ideas.


My world is that of ideas, creativity and design, of making, building, testing and evolving. I personally believe that the most valuable of all is creative thought, implemented or not. I would far rather spend a year talking with Leonardo da Vinci about the ideas that he didn't implement rather than any time with the countless who are unwilling to gain enough knowledge to be able to think creatively.

The notion 'Thinking outside of the box' is the biggest joke of all...I have no box that binds my imagination...

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## vieome

> Yes and no. You can patent an idea. As long as you can describe and draw something, you can patent it.


 That is exactly my point, an idea needs some kind of execution for it to have value, be it a drawing a well write out explanation . 




> I beg to differ.
> 
> I would agree with you if you said the following:
> 
> Your ideas might have value to you, but they have no value to the world until you *express* them.


 Expressing them is a start of the execution. I guess how does one define value is important to understanding if an idea has value. 

I too have many ideas, which very few people understand, 15 years ago I presented an idea to potential investors for dvd business directory, and was told what is wrong with the yellow pages, 5 years later the same investors released a business directory, it went on to fail, simply because they refused and rejected another part of the idea, that the directory should be given away free, they tried to sell it, even though they were making money from the advertising on the dvd. They also hired a very expensive programing team that came up with a very slow business directory, when my idea was to simply write the whole thing in HTML. And as I look back I see that idea had no value to me, accept to boost my own ego as a great idealist. 

Just look at the millions of ideas people have for improving the way the country is run, those are ideas maybe good, but are worth nothing and cant alter the downward trajectory the country is going. 

I do believe it is important to have ideas and lets ones creative energy flow, and for me thinking outside the box simply means not thinking like everyone else within an enclosed set of rules of what is possible and what is not. Most box thinkers always have a list of reasons an idea cant be executed, and many box thinkers are potential investors, and that is why I have made a point of investing in my own ideas.

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## adrianh

> Expressing them is a start of the execution.


Interesting cop-out!

At the very least you are not longer writing as if you see the world in black and white!

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## adrianh

Lets take a scenario:

A large company, say Ford, goes to a marketing company, Let's call it X and ask for a new campaign.
The marketing company calls ameeting and the marketing guru gives his presentation:

He goes: "We could make condoms with your logo on and give them away"
The company goes: "No, terrible idea"

Then he goes: "What about piggy banks with your logo on, and we still give them away"
The company goes: "Brilliant idea, let's get our injection moulding company to make them"

Now, please explain what it is exactly the marketing company got paid for other than an idea?

Please don't get stuck on the word "Ford" and please don't add any details to this question which aren't there.

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## vieome

Not a cop out LOL. Just explaining that the initial idea is worth zero, and that one adds cents to the idea as they start to clarify and expand on the idea.

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## adrianh

hmmm...

This statement is going to bite you in the butt...




> Expressing them is a start of the execution.


Ok, so if I tell the investor about the idea then I am expressing the idea....not so...

...now what....

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## vieome

> 1.)Then he goes: "What about piggy banks with your logo on, and we still give them away"
> 
> 2)"We could make condoms with your logo on and give them away"


1. If the marketing company was thinking by themselves we should market companys by putting logo on piggy banks, it has no  value. It only has value when it is explained to FORD and accepted by ford .

They gave Ford 2 ideas and are only paid for one, why are they not paid for the idea of the condoms?

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## adrianh

Lets start here:




> Now, please explain what it is exactly the marketing company got paid for other than an idea?


Did they not get paid for an idea?

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## vieome

> Lets start here:
> 
> 
> 
> Did they not get paid for an idea?


 Yes they were paid for an idea expressed to client, if they had thought of that idea with no client involved it would be worthless. The idea only has value because the client put value to it. Just like how the idea of condoms had no value cause client put no value to it.

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## Blurock

Sorry, you are both wrong. There was an existing product; a condom and a piggy bank. All they did was to give the client a choice. Ford is not a product, its a brand. The choice was how to promote their brand.

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## vieome

Does an idea have value? Answer NO
Can an idea have value? Answer Yes
Next question, how do we add value to an idea?
1. Express it
2. Clarify it
3. Expand on it
4. Build it
5. Sell it to world

So I think the problem is I am answering the question does an idea have value, and you answering the question can an idea have value.

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## adrianh

eish....Blurock...

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## vieome

> Sorry, you are both wrong.


 Agreed, but he is more wrong then me LOL.

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## adrianh

So, if I tell my buddy about my idea then the idea has value by virtue of me expressing it verbally?

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## Blurock

The way I see it is that adrianh is a clever, innovative guy. His frustration (and mine) is that generally people can not understand when an idea is born, because they can not conceptualise it. Even when he produces a CAD drawing, they can not read in 3D. So the idea does not get to fruition because one needs money and time to bring the idea to market.

So yes, the idea has no value (for the investor) until someone gets a spark in the brain and develops it into a product. For the inventor, however it has lots of value. He can continue to dream of that Carribean island or the Casino in Monaco. :Wink:

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## vieome

> The way I see it is that adrianh is a clever, innovative guy. His frustration (and mine) is that generally people can not understand when an idea is born, because they can not conceptualise it. Even when he produces a CAD drawing, they can not read in 3D. So the idea does not get to fruition because one needs money and time to bring the idea to market.
> 
> So yes, the idea has no value (for the investor) until someone gets a spark in the brain and develops it into a product. For the inventor, however it has lots of value. He can continue to dream of that Carribean island or the Casino in Monaco.


 That is exactly my point, that ideas have no value but value can be added to an idea. That is why I said the next step in the discussion is to ask how can one add value to an idea and I think that is the most important thing one has to do, find away of adding value to the idea. 

And Yes adrianh simply expressing an idea can add value to it if you express it to the right person, as is the case with you and your brother. So essentially instead of believing that our ideas have value , it better to know the step by step process of adding value to the idea.

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## adrianh

> *So essentially instead of believing that our ideas have value , it better to know the step by step process of adding value to the idea


I do not need to need the step by step process for my idea to have value. I can take it for granted that the person whom I tell about the idea has the knowhow to work out the process for themself. I could give my brother a vague idea to combine cellphones and education and he can get his people to work on it, and by the same token he would say that he thinks that there is a market for such and such a product and I would work out the detail.

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## Blurock

adrianh, your brother seems to be a practical guy. Would you be able to also sell your idea to a bean counter or a banker?

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## adrianh

Depends on their mindset.

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## adrianh

@Blurock - you hit the nail on the head when you said that 'he is practical'

The issue is this: each person evaluates 'what do I have to do to get what I want'. My brother and I are both willing to get down in the trenches and do whatever is needed'. Of course there are people that do not havethe knowhow nor the interest to do so. Ideas do not have a lot of value to those who are willing to get down and develop the ideas. This does not mean that their view is wrong, it simply means that they are not interested in the development process. But, I have to stress, though ideas may have no value to them, ideas have a great deal of value to us.

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## Blurock

They may also miss opportunities because they do not go to the trouble of trying to understand the idea. So to them the idea has no value, but to others it is a potential gold mine. Agreed? :Big Grin:

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## vieome

> @Blurock - you hit the nail on the head when you said that 'he is practical'
> 
> The issue is this: each person evaluates 'what do I have to do to get what I want'. My brother and I are both willing to get down in the trenches and do whatever is needed'. Of course there are people that do not havethe knowhow nor the interest to do so. Ideas do not have a lot of value to those who are willing to get down and develop the ideas. This does not mean that their view is wrong, it simply means that they are not interested in the development process. But, I have to stress, though ideas may have no value to them, ideas have a great deal of value to us.


I guess that puts us on the same page, agreeing that ideas are important, and that one can add value to an idea by expanding and working on it. The real stress then becomes marketing once the developed product is ready. I have several ideas that I put work into that are now finished products and are gathering dust because the market is not ready for them

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## adrianh

> I have several ideas that I put work into that are now finished products and are gathering dust because the market is not ready for them


...or you haven't found the right person to take them to market.

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## Citizen X

> That is exactly my point, that ideas have no value but value can be added to an idea. That is why I said the next step in the discussion is to ask how can one add value to an idea and I think that is the most important thing one has to do, find away of adding value to the idea. 
> 
> And Yes adrianh simply expressing an idea can add value to it if you express it to the right person, as is the case with you and your brother. So essentially instead of believing that our ideas have value , it better to know the step by step process of adding value to the idea.


You guys are touching on very fundamental concepts of Marxism!!
Adding value. To illustrate, your most expensive cellphone, does not cost a lot to manufacture. In raw material mostly plastic and glass, your raw materials will cost about R20 at your scrap yard. The technology of cellphones is now here for a very long time, so mass producing plastic and glass is not costly. Value has being added to it because of its features, and that is what you are paying for. Sucks really!!

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## adrianh

> Value has being added to it because of its features, and that is what you are paying for. Sucks really!!


The notion of "Value" is a very interesting concept.

So here is an interesting question: If you connect a PC to the internet does it not give the PC infinitely more value by virtue of the fact that it now gives access to so much information. (how much value does it have to somebody without electricity)

Does a PC connected to the internet have intrinsic value or does it only have value to a person that knows how to use it. - Compare this to water that has value whether one knows how to use it or not.

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## Citizen X

> The notion of "Value" is a very interesting concept.
> 
> So here is an interesting question: If you connect a PC to the internet does it not give the PC infinitely more value by virtue of the fact that it now gives access to so much information. (how much value does it have to somebody without electricity)
> 
> Does a PC connected to the internet have intrinsic value or does it only have value to a person that knows how to use it. - Compare this to water that has value whether one knows how to use it or not.


The scenario you raise is philosophical in nature. Plato would have said that ‘ we only see shadows of the real things and not the real things themselves,’ This is the problem scenario you pose.
The internet is paid for separately and the PC is paid for separately. From the perspective of value of a commodity, since you paid separately for both, the benefits it yields will be different from person you person. If you you running a Ponzi scheme, then I suppose the internet increases the pc’s value a million fold

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## Zahir Khan

I think everybody is missing the bigger picture ~ Yes it is all about the Product and the Marketing but without the right positioning and the correct timing you will be run over by the competition and when that hawk swoops down ( that new technology or next big thing and you were not prepared for ) ~ your affiliates will go to the side where the grass is greener unless you have mass brain washed them into mind controlled zombies ...

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## B-Marketing

To market effectively, you need to make your target audience believe in the same vision as you do. Whether this vision is the vision of what your product will achieve, or whether it is the vision of what you service or offering will provide to your customers. If you have no vision for your products or services your target audience will definitely not see (or envision) how the product or service will add value to their lives. Today's success stories can be used as an example; do you think Apple would have had such a huge success if Steve Jobs did not have a vision for his product? Your own beliefs and vision have a much larger impact on your marketing and, in fact, your products than you can imagine. Therefore, it is often necessary to revisit the basics, such as your vision before you can embark on marketing your products in the first place.

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## adrianh

Great, my vision is to be filthy rich. What is more important - marketing or the product?

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## B-Marketing

If you do not add real value to your customers you will struggle to convince the world to give you their hard earned cash. In other words, if you do not have a decent product/value add then you will not be able to market effectively. Don't get me wrong, marketing always helps, but to create sustainable business you will need to sort out your products/services

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Blurock (29-Apr-13), Dave A (29-Apr-13)

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## haroldnov

Good products always find a way to customers!! With or without marketing..

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## adrianh

True enough. There are so many custom / niche products that sell with no marketing. It's always nice to hear of a customer who tracked a product down.

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## Blurock

There is a principle in business that we often ignore; Market pull - not product push.

The need for, or demand for a service or product will often determine whether a product is successful or not. Trying to push a product onto a market that is not ready for it is a disaster. 

One of the (many) definitions of marketing is about satisfying the need of the customer. If you can satisfy the need better than your competitor, you've got it made. :Wink:

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## felixthomas

> Amazon and overstock are the biggest name of the online industry. How they became so big? Only answer of this question is Marketing
> Did you know about spotify? It became the biggest brand of songs industry in no time because of marketing. So according to me Marketing is compulsory for every business to get recognize.


Yeah I do agree with you. But the thing is they have retained their market reputation because of their product quality. People prefer to buy their products because they feel its worth buying not only because they are in news.

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## DeonT

I suppose in that case winning a few government tenders are more important  :Stick Out Tongue:

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## Blurock

A good product supported by good marketing is a winning formula.

It is impossible to market a shitty product. You may fool some of the people some of the time...

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## Wiz

Its a Combo for me.
A good product + Awesome Marketing strategy = Rocking Business.

Cheers. :Big Grin:

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## edwards

I think both have same importance and linked with each other but for starting business you need to do effective marketing for promoting your products and without marketing you can't promote your products.

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## eina26

I'd like to think the a successful formula is having an awesome product and an aggressive marketing team. However, I also believe that even though you don't have that great of a product but if you have the best team of Marketing and have lots of budget, you'd still be successful.  :Smile:

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## Blurock

> I'd like to think the a successful formula is having an awesome product and an aggressive marketing team. However, I also believe that even though you don't have that great of a product but if you have the best team of Marketing and have lots of budget, you'd still be successful.


True, until people realize that the product is not so great and that the marketing hype is just hot wind. :Stick Out Tongue:

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## eina26

> True, until people realize that the product is not so great and that the marketing hype is just hot wind.


You've got a point but some people are still into it not because of the product, sometimes because some celebrities use it.  :Big Grin:

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## HR Solutions

> You've got a point but some people are still into it not because of the product, sometimes because some celebrities use it.


You are right and that is really a sad thing.  I would like someone to kick me the day I wear a cap because Justin Bieber wears one, or if I buy a deodorant because some prick celebrity makes it or says its the best thing since marmite. !

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## Justloadit

> True, until people realize that the product is not so great and that the marketing hype is just hot wind.


Windoze comes to mind, and still being used

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## Blurock

The opposite is also true. You have a quality product, better than competitors, SABS approved, done all the tests and qualifications, but no marketing budget or sales strategy and you are stuffed. The product will not sell itself in the big numbers you are expecting.

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## Wiz

> Chicken and egg situation? Without a product, what will you be marketing?


You said it all in one sentence. Its a combination of both the things. 
@Op you need to find Equilibrium of both.  :Big Grin:

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Blurock (27-Jul-13)

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## adrianh

Of course you need both if you want the company to survive over the long term but...

...you can make a $h1tload of money through marketing without having a real product!

This is exactly what crowd funding is, money is invested into a product that DOES NOT YET exist...people fund the CONCEPT or the IDEA. If they are lucky they get something in return, if they are like 90% of funders they get nothing but empty promises.

Thus; I will say it again and again and again: You can make a lot of money without having a real product and further, you can position a crappy product in the market so that people think that it is a good product through marketing. 

I think that product delivery is the most important for a weeny little company and marketing is the most important for a large company. The reason I say this is because the little company is dependent on each sale for its survival whilst the large company is predominantly dependent on its brand image for its survival. 

If you are operating in market saturated by similar products then the only weapon that you have is marketing. BMW, AUDI & Merc are all brilliant vehicles with brilliant service centres, the only thing that sets them apart are brand image which is a direct function of marketing. 

Think about it this way, there are 10 second-hand car dealers in a row, who will you buy from? - they all got a mixture of crap cars and good cars, they all have the same finance arrangements, the same insurance arrangements, service centres etc. You will buy from the best MARKETER...of course I will buy from the pretty girl in the tight skirt (which incidentally is also pure marketing aimed at my monkey brain rather than my left brain.

I bet that more high class high value cars are sold to powerful men by pretty ladies than men, and also that men would rather buy a bakkie from a guy that looks like a farmer than from a pretty girl dressed in high heels.

Don't kid yourself, marketers have us all by the short & curlies, we are simply to caught up in our perceptions that we do not realize that we are being played like soldiers who getting killed for the delusions of grandeur of an insane dictator.

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