# Interest group forums > Electrical Contracting Industry Forum >  12V fitting with 220V lamps

## skatingsparks

Surely you cannot have a 220Volt GU10 Lamp in one of those silly holder things fitted into a 12volt down light.  Nearly every domestic(which I try and avoid) Test and inspect for the COC I find 220Volt GU10's in 12Volt fittings and usually the connection to the supply cable isn't enclosed, just a connector block.  I'm bored of dealing with customers who do the "well its worked fine like that for ages" and get annoyed when I don't sign the COC because of this.  The fitting says 12V and is not earthed therefore not, to my way of thinking, compliant, Right?

----------


## AndyD

I think the reason that at least some of the fittings aren't earthed is that they're supposedly double insulated to Class I standards and hence don't come manufactured with any terminal to connect the earths into. I agree a standard choc-block connector with 220v cabling should be in an enclosure. Similarly transformer terminations with missing covers or shrouds would be an issue as well.

----------


## murdock

and does it help complaining or reporting it?

----------


## skatingsparks

> and does it help complaining or reporting it?


Nope - Bust my balls getting my license, don't sign unless its perfect.  Don't usually sign existing work off only my own which I have done from start to finish, to much hassle sorting out other peoples F^%$ ups.  They want a COC they are either going to get transformers and 12Volt lamps or get 220volt down lights put in.
Should have used a proper electrician in the first place.

People may learn one day its cheaper in the long run to do it right first time.  If i here one more person say "well its worked fine like that for years" I'm going to zap them with my insulation resistance tester and explain that that shock just hurts and won't kill you but the one from your shitty wiring might. 

Would you sign it off Murdock???  220volt lamp in 12 volt fitting??  And why are wholesalers selling that kind of lamp holder?  Surely that can't be right?  (My local Voltex doesn't sell them any more except the ones with an earth tag, like anyone will bother to connect it).

No more domestics for me thanks.... The cowboys can keep em.

----------


## Dave A

> Don't usually sign existing work off only my own which I have done from start to finish, to much hassle sorting out other peoples F^%$ ups.


One less competitor in the market  :Cool: 




> They want a COC they are either going to get transformers and 12Volt lamps or get 220volt down lights put in.
>  Should have used a proper electrician in the first place.


Exactly  :Big Grin:

----------


## murdock

"Would you sign it off Murdock??? 220volt lamp in 12 volt fitting?? And why are wholesalers selling that kind of lamp holder? Surely that can't be right? (My local Voltex doesn't sell them any more except the ones with an earth tag, like anyone will bother to connect it)."

honesty...which i suppose i shouldnt be on a public forum...a couple of years ago i would have been were you are right now complaining about...but lately i have a new policy...if you cant beat and the powers that be dont want to improve the industry...join them...i can also do a coc in 15 minutes..and looking for the kind of issues you are finding...it hard to find because most times i dont climb in the roof anymore...i just look from the trap door with a torch and if it looks ok...to fill out the coc takes another 10 minute...that pretty much all you gona get for R950 i charge for a domestic installation...i have also standardised my coc to save money...all the info on all my cocs are exactly the same if they pass...i just fill in the address details...i pay my labourer to fill them in by the dozen...it saves me hours...until there is some improvement in the industry and there is some sort of policing introduced...why waste your time getting all worked up...i use to get all worked up and report stuff and waste time...now i go with the flow...put my blinkers on...and actually challenge any other electrical contractor...AIA...or dol memeber to take me to task with regards to a coc...i have filled out...come on i dare you....i have a list so long by the time the court gets back to me i would have retired.

----------


## bergie

murdock that post was so depressing i had to take a pill. i dont stress when i climb in a roof and see a big mess. i see dollar signs.
i try to do my work properly regardless of what others do. 
regarding the 12 volt downlighter fittings with 230 volt lamps. its been discussed at length and i still dont know if its acceptable or not. 
i dont install it like that,but if i find it with proper terminations,etc then i pass it. the 12 volt frame can be classed as double insulated.

----------

Dave A (11-May-12)

----------


## Dave A

Hopefully murdock's post 6 was mostly sarcasm  :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Sparks

> Hopefully murdock's post 6 was mostly sarcasm


We are so accustomed to it that we forget Murdock's closing line: "Disclaimer: Hmmmmm. I know you think you understand what you thought I said, but I'm 
not sure that what you heard is what I actually meant!"

As for double insulated 12V downlight frames, where on earth does that idea come from? If a 12V set is bought that comes with double insulated transformers, yes, the set would be double insulated because of the transformer insulation. Replace/remove the double insulated transformer and you lose the classification.

Or can someone please explain to me where the "double insulation" is when you have a metal ring with a spring on it?

----------


## murdock

:Rofl:  dave  please dont pull my sponsorship....

----------


## AndyD

> As for double insulated 12V downlight frames, where on earth does that idea come from? If a 12V set is bought that comes with double insulated transformers, yes, the set would be double insulated because of the transformer insulation. Replace/remove the double insulated transformer and you lose the classification.


That's why I said 'supposedly', as soon as the SLEV transformer is removed they are no longer ClassI.

The whole MR16 and GU10 configuration was ill thought out from the start. Firstly the lamps ought to have been different sizes or have a key moulded into them to prevent them from being used in the wrong fittings. Secondly the MR16 has the thin pins but is drawing 20 times the current that the same wattage GU10 lamp draws yet the GU has a far more substantial bayonette type fitting. Consequantly the MR16 is far more prone to failures of the ceramic lamp holder.

----------

Dave A (14-May-12)

----------


## Leecatt

[QUOTE

As for double insulated 12V downlight frames, where on earth does that idea come from? If a 12V set is bought that comes with double insulated transformers, yes, the set would be double insulated because of the transformer insulation. Replace/remove the double insulated transformer and you lose the classification.

Or can someone please explain to me where the "double insulation" is when you have a metal ring with a spring on it?[/QUOTE]

I have seen an adapter, which I don't like, that houses a shrouded connection block and a connector for an earth connection which also connects it own metal parts to the earth. This then inserts into the 12volt holder, loosely. I keep failing them and am not sure if they are legal.



This one with also has a method of attaching the 12volt holder via the springs



Are these legal?

----------


## AndyD

I'd have to say I think the top one is probably legal. I don't have a problem with the earth continuity via the screw you highlighted. As far as strain relief goes it looks like the connector top shroud provides at least some, strain relief on the lampholder side is usually provided by the internal crimp connection which has two crimped parts, one on the wire and one on the insulation (if you look closely at the lug on the earth you can see the type of crimp I'm talking about). The arrangement in the bottom photo looks a little dicey to me, I'm not convinced that the mechanical connection via the springs would provide good enough earth continuity onto the ring itself. To be honest, if they had SABSapproval stamped on them I'd probably give them both a pass.

----------


## Sparks

The top one is 12volt & the bottom one is 220volt. My concern with both is the too short, too thin heat-resistant wire on the lampholder.

----------


## Leecatt

> The top one is 12volt & the bottom one is 220volt. My concern with both is the too short, too thin heat-resistant wire on the lampholder.


Although the top one uses a 12 volt lamp holder it is sold as a 220 volt fitting. Interesting point about the short wire.

----------


## AndyD

Yeah the wiring hi temp wiring and sleeve is a little on the short side. All these types of items are in a gray area as far as the regs are concerned, I guess you've just got to make a decision based on the spirit of the regs, general safety and any experience you may have of the specific item. I doubt on these kind of things there will ever be agreement across the board. For example if I knew an item has been installed and working without any signs of deterioration for a long period of time and it came as an SABS approved item then this would go some way toward allowing it a pass in my opinion. On the other hand if I have seen the same item elsewhere and it had shown rapid deterioration due to heat or had been problematic in some other way then I would be considerable more likely to take a stand based on past evidence and fail it.

----------


## Leecatt

I have written to Bright Star lighting and asked for 5 SABS certificates relating to 5 different fittings. They have only sent me one certificate back which is for the type we suspected to be legal, the one that is all one piece DL 009. One can now only assume that the rest do not come with certificates?
I have re written the email asking again for the certificates and if anything changes I will post here.
Below is a picture of the legal light

----------


## AndyD

Just out of interest does that light fit through the hole in the ceiling in it's fully assembled state? Does the black connection enclosure on the top interfere with the spring clips when you insert or remove it?

----------


## Leecatt

> Just out of interest does that light fit through the hole in the ceiling in it's fully assembled state? Does the black connection enclosure on the top interfere with the spring clips when you insert or remove it?


Yes it fits through the hole as is and the spring clips as well, no problems.
The gent at Bright Star wrote back and told me that the NRCS Certificate for the DL 009 also covers all his other downlighters. Sounds odd to me??

----------


## AndyD

I'm not buying that. Any certification should have all the specific product model numbers listed on it. It's remotely possible that NRCS might issue blanket certification of product line if the individual products all have individual certification by another recognised certifying body such as ISO, EN or IEC. I'm not sure to be honest but if this were the case the original certification surely should be produced on request, not the blanket acceptance by NRCS.

----------


## JasonT

hi, with regards to the wiring of 220v downlights, one can now purchase 220v "tail" which can be used in conjunction with the 12v downlight lamp holders. my question is: from the junction box comes 1,5mm flat twin +e, the "tail" is connected to the flat twin + e by means of ferrels and tape? how legal is this?

----------


## AndyD

Ferrules I have no problem with but I don't like tape. Heatshrink would be much preferrable. It's worth noting if you convert a 12v light fitting to take a 220v lamp then you need to install an earth termination to the fitting and connect the CPC (earth wire).

----------


## Leecatt

> hi, with regards to the wiring of 220v downlights, one can now purchase 220v "tail" which can be used in conjunction with the 12v downlight lamp holders. my question is: from the junction box comes 1,5mm flat twin +e, the "tail" is connected to the flat twin + e by means of ferrels and tape? how legal is this?


I've dealt with this before and cannot afford time to look up all the regs.
The following comes to mind.

1./The connection has to be housed in a junction box which can prevent strain upon the connections and provide protection against the elements and being touched.
This is impractical because the heat from the lamp will damage the box and gland due to the short tail.

2./ All electrical equipment have to be SABS certified and drilling a hole and inserting an earthing point on a 12 volt downlight fitting invalidates this certification.

3./ All electrical equipment must be used as originally intended.

In a nutshell its bad practice and not legal. There is a 220 volt fitting which is suited for the installation

----------

ELECT 1 (24-Jan-14)

----------


## ELECT 1

We have a similar problem here in the Cape.
To replace 12v down lights with 220v LED.
Ok you get a lamp holder incorporated into a bracket which is supposed to fit through the spring of the recessed light fitting.
This is 220v , the LED lamp is steel or aluminum and therefore should be earthed.
Problem is that as soon as you connect the bracket to the fitting it comes adrift. Not clever. I am still from the old school, earthing should have a screw and a lug, a real hard connection.

But some firms that do inspections for a living hahhaa.. don't worry too much as they recon you cant touch it with your finger.
I showed them that if you stand on a ladder with the lights on you can touch it...ok i am being a bit silly now, but you could expect something like this from a misinformed person. 

So we are still in a state in limbo about this bracket thing....All that is really needed in the manufacture process is an earth stud with screw on the fitting.

----------


## ELECT 1

> I've dealt with this before and cannot afford time to look up all the regs.
> The following comes to mind.
> 
> 1./The connection has to be housed in a junction box which can prevent strain upon the connections and provide protection against the elements and being touched.
> This is impractical because the heat from the lamp will damage the box and gland due to the short tail.
> 
> 2./ All electrical equipment have to be SABS certified and drilling a hole and inserting an earthing point on a 12 volt downlight fitting invalidates this certification.
> 
> 3./ All electrical equipment must be used as originally intended.
> ...


Hi Leecatt, in a nutshell the fitting that is used for a 12v lamp cannot be used for a 220v lamp, unless there is a permant earth terminal.
If this is not so, then who allowed the status quo to carry on with the current setup.
Ian

----------


## skatingsparks

More twists to the 12 volt 220volt lamp thing.  A client asked me to install these.  They are double insulated and CE and Rohs approved bought in South Africa from a South African Supplier.  Same style bracket as previously asked about and in the paperwork that come with it it specifies must not be earthed.  Guessing the cable coming down to the lamp holder is considered double insulated.  The unit comes complete, sold as a 220v fitting, as pictured (bracket and down light together).  CE standard acceptable?  I mean, good enough for the whole of Europe, USA, Japan, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and Israel.  I deleted the brand but I have used them before (the brand) in the UK a long time ago.  Good solid fitting.  Double insulated so fine, right? :Confused:

----------


## AndyD

There's several issues at play when it comes to earthing and bonding.

There's an issue where the cpc is connected to facilitate fast disconnection of the circuit by allowing a large fault current to flow safely to earth without the touch voltage exceeding 50v should a fault occur within the device. With a double insulated/classII appliance or light fitting it is deemed that the extra protection built into the fitting means this type of fault should never occur under normal usage. Effectively because of the extra safety measures the body of the fitting is no longer considered to be extraneous conductive and as such wouldn't require bonding to earth for the same reason a metal window or door in a house wouldn't require bonding.

By the way the Rohs compliance just means they haven't used any hazardous materials such as lead based paint or solder when making the fitting. The CE mark means it complies with the EU low voltage directives etc.

----------


## skatingsparks

This light is marked as double insulated (square within a square also show on the box it came in an the instruction sheet) and also is supplied as a 240V fitting not a ELV (12 volt fitting).  

Taken from installation instruction "'company name' down lights are to be connected to a 240V mains supply (no transformer is required) The main body of Class 2 luminaries MUST NOT be connected to an earth terminal"

So with a double insulated/classII symbol present i can take it that extra protection is built into the fitting means shock by direct contact should never occur under normal usage.  Fair argument? 

I still want to know if those brackets you get from all wholesalers are sabs approved, the ones with the earth tags.

Seems another grey area to me.  At least in this case the square within in a square is there.

----------


## AndyD

> .....Taken from installation instruction "'company name' down lights are to be connected to a 240V mains supply (no transformer is required) The main body of Class 2 luminaries MUST NOT be connected to an earth terminal"
> 
> So with a double insulated/classII symbol present i can take it that extra protection is built into the fitting means shock by direct contact should never occur under normal usage.  Fair argument?


Yep correct. Also if the fitting hasSABS approval and the instructions specifically state the you *'MUST NOT'* earth then that alone would be sufficient reason. The wording 'must not' does not leave room for choice or debate, it implies there's a damn good and considered reason not to connect the CPC.




> I still want to know if those brackets you get from all wholesalers are sabs approved, the ones with the earth tags.
> 
> Seems another grey area to me.  At least in this case the square within in a square is there.


I'm not sure if they're SABS approved or not, there should be an indication of this on the packaging and on the fitting itself. If they come with earth tags and they're not Class II, ELV or SELV then the CPC would require connecting.

A large part of the problem in this country is the lack of manufacturer support. It's chalk and cheese compared to the EU or the US where you can get 24 hour support from nearly all suppliers and manufacturers. In this country the wholesalers just shrug their shoulders and tell you this how how the guys normally do it so....

----------


## skatingsparks

I'm installing then as per instruction.  Worst comes to worse the double insulated symbol is international.  I'll attach a copy of the instructions with the coc.  Is the light fitting part of the coc?  Afterall the report covers the circuits for fixed appliances, but does  cover the actual appliance, for example stoves, geysers, air conditioning and refrigeration plant and lights.

----------


## Slow Blow

Just to stir things up a bit, how many electricians attach an in line fuse to a 12 volt lamp fitting (between transformer and lamp), I once had to do this to an entire shopping mall.

----------


## Leecatt

> Just to stir things up a bit, how many electricians attach an in line fuse to a 12 volt lamp fitting (between transformer and lamp), I once had to do this to an entire shopping mall.


Kindly expand on this story so that we can have an idea of the circuitry

----------


## AndyD

I'm guessing it was because the transformers that were installed had no fuse on the secondary side like they're supposed to.

----------


## Leecatt

> I'm guessing it was because the transformers that were installed had no fuse on the secondary side like they're supposed to.


Andy as far as I am aware a 50 va transformer does not need a fuse.

7.9.3.2.4 Secondary overcurrent protection is not required where the
maximum output of the SELV transformer is 50 VA, the secondary circuit
conductor is at least 1,5 mm2, not exceeding a length of 2,5 m, and at
least one conductor and its terminals are insulated to prevent a short
circuit.

However, multiple circuits that are fed from a larger transformer must have overload protection on the secondary cables to protect the cable.
As an example: A 300VA transformer supplies 6 x 50 VA light fittings each supplied by a 1.5mm cable, 2 meters long.
One light draws 4.2 amps
Each cable must be protected via a 10 amp circuit breaker in order to protect the cable during a short circuit. 
One common 10amp circuit breaker can be used to protect all the cables but this will be impractical as it will trip under load.
The transformer and circuit breakers must be housed in a ventilated box and all cable glanded individually.
See 7.9.3.2.2

It just seems a lot easier for each light to have it own transformer.

Additionally, the 50 VA transformer housing can not be used as a junction box, or a looping box, unless it is designed to used as such, which they are not.
A 3 way looping box must be used on the supply cable and a single cable feed into the transformer.

This is the correct way to install low voltage lighting

----------


## Slow Blow

> Andy as far as I am aware a 50 va transformer does not need a fuse.
> 
> 7.9.3.2.4 Secondary overcurrent protection is not required where the
> maximum output of the SELV transformer is 50 VA, the secondary circuit
> conductor is at least 1,5 mm2, not exceeding a length of 2,5 m, and at
> least one conductor and its terminals are insulated to prevent a short
> circuit.
> 
> However, multiple circuits that are fed from a larger transformer must have overload protection on the secondary cables to protect the cable.
> ...


Leecatt is correct, but, The Western Cape Approved Electrical Inspection Authority has made the local rule of having to put an in line 10 amp fuse between even a 50w transformer and the lamp, so I just do it anyway to avoid any legal complications in the event of an accident.
I don't know if this is approved by, err, who approves things electrical nowadays  :Confused:

----------

