# Interest group forums > Energy and Resource Conservation Forum >  Green without going new age or supertech

## wynn

I put this under 'Chat' because I was hoping to avoid the usual 'Politics' storm.

Here in Slummie EL we are entering a period of water shortage and the threat of a house using 65 kilolitres paying a R4000.oo penalty is very real.
Also the new electricity pricing structure is going to be big, my electricity of R1200.ooPM will be R2400.oo within 2 more years.

We will do the Generator, PV cells and methane collection later

Lets be constructive and list all the reasonable ways we can start being less dependant on the various municipalities for our basic services, namely lights and water.
Not just throw ideas out there but can anyone put a price on it as well.

Dave can this be made into a wiki as we progress?

I'll start with:

ceiling insulation price per m2?

geyser blanket?

hot water pipe insulation?


alternatives to electric geysers   1) solar?
                                            2) heat exchangers?

water saver shower heads?

water saver cisterns for flushing? 

(yellow let it mellow, brown flush down)

gas for cooking?

hot pot for hot water for coffee instead of boiling kettle every time?

enough cups of water for the demand when you have to boil the kettle?

Lekkies help here? is it worth switching everything off at the plug not leaving appliances on standby?

insulated cooking systems?

ceiling fans instead of aircon?

cutting the bottom off soda bottles, inverting them at the base of shrubs and plants to direct a little water direct to the root system.

redirecting your grey water to the garden, what ideas?

water tanks for rain water Jo Jo approx R2 to 3000.oo each

turning down the stopcock at the meter to restrict the flow of water

WHAT ELSE?

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desA (01-Mar-10), RogerH (02-Mar-10)

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## desA

> alternatives to electric geysers 1) solar?
> 2) heat exchangers?


Heat-pumps.




> gas for cooking?
> hot pot for hot water for coffee instead of boiling kettle every time?


Very efficient. Standard practice in SE Aia.




> ceiling fans instead of aircon?


Use high-efficiency aircons.




> water tanks for rain water Jo Jo approx R2 to 3000.oo each


Good idea.




> turning down the stopcock at the meter to restrict the flow of water


Put a pressure-regulator downstream from the water meter. Drop supply pressure & use less water. Use low restriction shower heads & taps.




> redirecting your grey water to the garden, what ideas?


Store grey-water in temporary storage tank. Use it to irrigate garden - perhaps drip irrigation nozzles?

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RogerH (02-Mar-10)

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## desA

*Breakdown of typical suburban home - electricity consumption*

Water heating.....:. 45.9%
Washing clothes..:. 2.4%
Cooking..............:. 15.1%
Space heating.....:. 4.1%
Refrig/freezer......:. 15.1%
Lights................:. 11.4%
Other applicances:. 6.0%

Start with the big ones & reduce them first.

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RogerH (02-Mar-10), wynn (02-Mar-10)

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## desA

Make hot water from your current aircon unit, & at the same time make it more efficient. This technology will be coming to SA this year. It can be used together with a heat-pump system.

I'm also looking into scavenging energy from a domestic refrigerator.

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Dave A (05-Mar-10), RogerH (02-Mar-10)

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## AndyD

I agree that in an average household water heating is the major consumer of power unless you have lots of air conditioning. In SA it's very viable to use solar heater panels to make your hot water. The solar is used when it's possible and any extra energy required is supplied by a standard electrical element. This obviously save more in summer than winter but maybe there's a hybrid system that uses solar as a primary and a heatpump as secondary heat source.

I recently extended our house upwards by two extra storeys. I incorporated energy saving techniques into the build at very little extra cost. The original house was poorly designed and insulated and needed underfloor and AC heat pump heaters in winter and just the six air con units in summer. The new house requires neither heating or air con. I insulated all plumbing pipework in the walls with 3/4 " thick lagging, installed a solar geyser. The only extravagance was a ducted fresh air system that supplies cool air into the top two floors with a 140watt electronically commutated fan speed controlled by a temperature probe in the attic.

The house is a pleasure to come home to, it's cool inside on days of 35C, warm inside on mornings of 12C and my electricity bill came down from R900.00 per month 2 years ago to R300.00 today (family of 4, 360sqm house). I deliberately avoided throwing expensive technology at it, it's all down to design and insulation......and more insulation (an extra R18000.00 in insulation costs during the build) which is paying itself back at around R500.00 per month before the increases and probably R600.00 per month pretty soon from now.

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Dave A (05-Mar-10), RogerH (02-Mar-10), wynn (02-Mar-10)

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## AndyD

Some of the other things that helped are that we threw out every single LV downlight fitting in the place and installed some snazzy looking pendant fittings that can be used and look good with CFL lamps. I reduced the lighting load from 48 x 50watt diachroics (nearly 2.5kW) to 50 x 14watt CFL's and 6 x 36watt fluorescent tubes. ( < 1kW). Bear in mind this includes the 2 extra bedrooms 2 bathrooms, 1 x library/study, 1 x laundry room and a 130sqm attic that was never there as well. We trebled the square meterage with less than half the lighting load.

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RogerH (02-Mar-10), wynn (02-Mar-10)

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## Debbiedle

The hot pot for kettle water is that one of those "pump action" pots?  This is a biggie for us.  I think the kettle gets boiled up to 4 times an hour...

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wynn (02-Mar-10)

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## tec0

This is what I did. 

Lights -> 15 watts 1 per room.
Unplug all devices that are not in use.
Use gas and low power cooking devices (they do work well I own 1)

It is not the power of 1 thing that is the problem it is the combination of things running at the same time that is costly. This is how we keep our bills low.

If you only use less devices at 1 time then your power bill will go down. I got it down with about R400 in one month âFACTâ And if you make and follow your own list it stays down. 

I will get back to on the other stuff just need to work out the costs....

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wynn (02-Mar-10)

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## desA

Glad you picked up the vacuum cleaner. These are incredible power guzzlers - especially the 1500W compact devices.

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wynn (02-Mar-10)

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## tec0

This is a nice page with pricing and will give you a clue about total costs  :Smile: 

http://www.sunpower.co.za/index.php?ukey=pricelist

*Again I do not recommend this site but it is one of the few places honest enough to give pricing.*

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desA (02-Mar-10), wynn (02-Mar-10)

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## tec0

Here you will find a lot of info on LED lights and how you can use them âas normalâ and save a LOT of money

http://www.ledenergy.co.za/products-globes.htm

*Again I do not recommend the sight it is only for information*

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wynn (02-Mar-10)

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## desA

Do SA homes still use incandescent light bulbs? Filament types?

I haven't seen one in SE Asia since I came here some 10 years back. The norm here is folded fluorescent, low energy bulbs.

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## tec0

Yes you will find them in workshops and some old homes. The truth is people donât like the new type of globs because of the low quality light.

They are really bad on your eyes I still use the âoldâ globs for reading because the light is better and I feel my eyes is better for it. Yes they eat power but replacing my eyes can be more costly. Still I only use the âoldâ globs for reading. 

I donât know maybe it is all in the mind but I just enjoy reading with an old nice power hungry glob.  :Smile:

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## AndyD

> Here you will find a lot of info on LED lights and how you can use them âas normalâ and save a LOT of money
> 
> http://www.ledenergy.co.za/products-globes.htm
> 
> *Again I do not recommend the sight it is only for information*


Nice link for LED's. The biggest problem with LED's, apart from often being lower light output than CFL or filament, is the dimming issue. There are a few dimmable ones around but most aren't.





> Do SA homes still use incandescent light bulbs? Filament types?
> 
> I haven't seen one in SE Asia since I came here some 10 years back. The norm here is folded fluorescent, low energy bulbs.


Filament lamps/bulbs/globes are outlawed in many countries but still alive and well in SA. I wouldn't be surprised to see legislation here though soon.

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## tec0

Nope a lot of people use these lights for their heat. Yes believe it or not it is still a good way to keep young chicks or other small birds alive.  :Cool:  

There are not really a lot of alternatives at the moment. I just like the quality of bright light and it is really note worthy to say it is the better choice if electricity was still cheap.

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## desA

I am beginning to get the feeling that severe lifestyle adjustments are on their way in SA.

From what I'm seeing, SA has led a fairly sheltered existence over the past 10-15 years, while the rest of the world has grappled with ways to conserve energy. I suspect that this is for the good & that after the pains of change have subsided, that SA will be all the better for it.

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## tec0

Now I wouldnât say that... âYou have the internetâ familiarise yourself with what is going on before you say things like that. Right now we have been without water for about 48 hours. âNo reason was givenâ our power systematically switches off at mid day and again in the afternoon. âWe are not on load-shedding but still experience black outs.  

We can do only so much. The links that I have provided will give an idea of the costs. Now to install a passive water system that will store a 1000 letters of water sounds good but there is a lot of things that people forget.  That 1000 letters sounds like a lot of water but it is not. To go without water for about a week you need a lot more than that. Basic hygiene breaks down everything else goes with it.

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## tec0

http://www.waterforafrica.co.za/prod...nd-systems.htm

http://www.jojotanks.co.za/index.php...&category_id=8

Again I do not recommend these sights and there is âContact Usâ links and getting prices is not that difficult. Depending on your needs it can go from R1600 up. 

This is some of the solutions when we sit without water for about 5 days. There is some extreme storage systems for the people that has the space and the money.

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wynn (03-Mar-10)

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## AndyD

> I am beginning to get the feeling that severe lifestyle adjustments are on their way in SA.


I think any lifestyle adjustments will be because of utility infrastructure. I see load shedding becoming the norm again in the next few years and water supply in certain areas is already a major problem.




> From what I'm seeing, SA has led a fairly sheltered existence over the past 10-15 years, while the rest of the world has grappled with ways to conserve energy.


SA might be five years behind the first world in this respect. Until recently the government has had higher priority issues than energy conservation plus I think it suits the first world fine to have a dumping ground for the 'end of run' old technologies that can't be sold elsewhere.

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Dave A (05-Mar-10), desA (03-Mar-10), tec0 (03-Mar-10), wynn (03-Mar-10)

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## desA

> Now I wouldn’t say that... “You have the internet” familiarise yourself with what is going on before you say things like that.


Ok, why I made the comment is that I've seen similar issues at play at both the developed & under-developed end of the international spectrum.

People are often conditioned to believe the world is coming to an end, when infrastructure begins to fall apart - especially if they are used to it as a part of everyday life. Sometimes we live luxurious lifestyles compared to other parts of the world. I have had the privilege of traveling through over 30 countries over the years. I'll bet you that, with all the hardships, SA is still a relative paradise.

When you've seen places where the people have little, or next to nothing, yet have survived - it makes an impression. There are always solutions to each of life's problems. We really do not need that much to be happy in life - honestly. In many ways, the changes in SA seem to bring it in line now, with parts of SE Asia. When things get really bad, an alternative way is found.

The simple ideas listed on this thread are great & will do a great deal to reduce the electricity bill. I really like the ideas about having water storage tanks, using rain-water, grey-water etc - this is good thinking.

Can you put a borehole in the garden, or well, & draw your own water? If there is a council bylaw prohibiting this, but they cannot guarantee steady water supply - then let them challenge you & carry on building it - its your land. It should not hold up in court. 

These low-power lights are great - put them closer to the reading surface. Do you really need incandescant lights - no, I mean, really need them?

Electricity timers are great devices - turn off what you don't need at pre-set times.

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## wynn

Boreholes are an option but expensive, does anybody know what the thumbsuck cost per meter drilled is?

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## tec0

I will have to get back to you on that but I know it depends on the contractor doing the drilling.

Our winters is not that cold and our summers is murder but again with some proper insulation and cheep running fans it is manageable. 

Still I want to come back to the luxury thing. I want running water because I pay for running water; I want electricity because I pay for electricity. I do not mind spending money if the property was my own. But with housing cost as it is... owning your own home will remain a distant pipe dream for a long long time to come. 

I right now I am looking for mobile solutions to my power problems and water problems because I am not going to spend the money just so that it can get taken away from me. Fact is there must be a dynamic change in housing cost. If the house is NOT green then drop its value so that the owners are forced to upgrade. This attitude adjustment will go a long way and “thinking green” will become a way of life thus allowing for technology to be used and hopefully get cheaper along the line. 

I feel government can also help by allowing “imported “green” equipment” to go without import tax. This will make it cost effective and allow the market to be flooded with alternatives. The bigger impact will be education and use of these systems and will allow generalisation. 

Again government needs to participate actively and that is perhaps our biggest challenge. Fresh food and fresh water in my eyes must not be considered as a luxury.

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## tec0

More to a relevant point....




> Photo via Red Ferret
> 
> How I didnât hear about this sooner, Iâll never know. Dean Kamen, inventor of the Segway, went into water filtration awhile back.
> 
> Apparently this year he has unveiled the Slingshot, a filtration system for turning any water-containing liquid, including pee, into drinkable water. Not only that, but it can be run on cow poo.
> 
> Sound too good to be true? Maybe it is, or maybe Kamen doesnât want it to take a giant belly flop like the Segway.
> 
> Read on for some interesting details about this product, and watch a video of Kamen on the Colbert Report.
> ...





> Source: http://www.treehugger.com/files/2008...ater-needs.php


I can honestly say I can see it working here. " *if it works*  :Wink:  "

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## AndyD

> Boreholes are an option but expensive, does anybody know what the thumbsuck cost per meter drilled is?


Depends on a thousand and one different things.

Up to around 9 meters depth is a standard well point with a surface mounted self priming jet pump. A well point should be less than 10 grand and might only be R5000.00 all in. It depends on how many holes they make to find good water. It also depends on the type of ground you're on. 

Between 9 and 16-18 meters you can use a syrface mounted pump with a venturi half way down the hole, obviously a little more expensive.

Finally below 20 meters is usually a bore hole with a multistage submersible pump. Again depending on the depth and the ground (shale, gravel or coffee Klip as they call it requires codex drilling where they sleeve the hole as they drill) you could be looking at anything between 30 and 250 thousand Rands.

It's very geography specific, the best thing to do is to contact a reputable company and get a quote. They should know from other holes in your area what depth and difficulties will be involved.

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desA (03-Mar-10), wynn (03-Mar-10)

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## AndyD

If you're a tight wad like me and you live in an area where the water table is fairly high you can make your own well point. I dug a hole 8.5 meters deep and placed 4 x dairy crates wrapped in shadecloth into the hole and positioned a 32mm class 10 HDPE pipe in the middle of them and filled the hole back in again. Less than a thousand Rand later for a pump voila...one well point. Gives me approx 70 liters per minute of crystal clear water all year round. Great for irrigation and other garden water, also use it for toilets and filling the pool. It's very rare I ever go above the free water allowance.

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desA (03-Mar-10), wynn (03-Mar-10)

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## desA

Stunning...   :Thumbup:

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## tec0

I take it that you have the water tested before you start using it?  :Confused:  I know of one or two places where the wells ware actually poisons. I strongly recommend that you test the quality of water before you start using it.

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## desA

Durban poisons?   :Confused:

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## AndyD

> I take it that you have the water tested before you start using it?  I know of one or two places where the wells ware actually poisons. I strongly recommend that you test the quality of water before you start using it.


We don't drink the water though I'd be surprised if it's not potable, just use it for irrigation, pool and toilet flush which is around 80% of our water consumption.

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## IanF

> I dug a hole 8.5 meters deep and placed 4 x dairy crates .


Andy,
I am intrigued, how do you dig an 8.5M hole? That is deep.  :Confused:

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## AndyD

By hand in 3 days with 3 labourers to assist. You're right, it's very deep, I used all our scaffold planks and then some for shuttering the sides of the hole. It's slow going, once you hit water you're pulling up mud and does make a mess of the garden with a surprisingly large pile of earth.

Before I started I asked around the neighbours and a couple of irrigation installers, the consensus was that there was water at between 3 and 4 meters so I never intended to go that deep. We only first saw water at nearly 6 meters. It was one of those jobs that with hindsight I probably wouldn't do again in a hurry.

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## desA

Hire labour & tie a rope around their ankle.

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## tec0

Honestly... Well I will just bite my tongue for now... Letâs just say if you donât know where to start digging then on its own you may have some really horrible consequences like hitting a pipe. 

Also 8m deep??? I cannot imagine you not hitting rock at that point. I strongly recommend you talk to the professionals. Find out where there IS pipes and more importantly how deep the water is before you find yourself a dinosaur.  :Confused:

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## desA

This could be a little off-topic, but, it is interesting nevertheless.   :Smile:

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## SilverNodashi

how about motion sensors in every room, which switch the lights on only when there's motion, and some of those rotating extractor fans for the heat?

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wynn (05-Mar-10)

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## Dave A

I'm reading this thread for the first time - been really snowed under  :Sorry: 
What a great topic! And pretty close to my heart. I don't have to go far to find some serious independance from municipal supplies - my parents have to fend for themselves for water and electricity. They do everything with solar power, even powering the borehole - which on a technical note is a single stage pump pushing a 32 metre head to the holding tank. It amazes me how much grunt you can get out of a solar panel if you use the juice the right way.

Other electrical demands were always an issue though and needed to be tightly managed - until CFL's came along. And now with LEDs they can watch as much TV as they like  :Big Grin: 



> Filament lamps/bulbs/globes are outlawed in many countries but still alive and well in SA. I wouldn't be surprised to see legislation here though soon.


It's just arrived - a R5.00 tax on each incandescent bulb - and I expect it'll grow faster than the sin taxes in future. Our government strategy seems to be you can have whatever (luxury) you like as long as you are prepared to pay for it.



> Can you put a borehole in the garden, or well, & draw your own water? If there is a council bylaw prohibiting this,


There's no municipality preventing it that I know to, at least not yet. Too heavy a draw on ground water can lead to problems, so if it became overly popular I'd expect some regulatory measures would become necessary.



> Still I want to come back to the luxury thing. I want running water because I pay for running water; I want electricity because I pay for electricity. I do not mind spending money if the property was my own. But with housing cost as it is... owning your own home will remain a distant pipe dream for a long long time to come.


That may prove to be one of the biggest obstacles overall for SA. Property ownership affordability is an issue and the most meaningful measures seem to involve an investment in the property. The incentive for a tenant to make that green investment is virtually nil.



> I know of one or two places where the wells ware actually poisons. I strongly recommend that you test the quality of water before you start using it.


Particularly in Gauteng or if you've got mines with slime dams in your area. These pose a serious heavy metal contamination threat to ground water, and heavy metal poisoning is not pleasant. However, there are very good filters available nowadays.



> Dave can this be made into a wiki as we progress?


Any member can start a wiki page. Just use the search box in the wiki for the page title, and you'll be led through the process of starting a new wiki page from there.

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AndyD (06-Mar-10)

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## wynn

Will there be a fight over who owns the river water?

All one needs to emulate photosynthesis is 3 gal. of river water, four hours of sunlight, and an affordable cobalt-phosphate catalyst. Throw in a 30 sq m photovoltaic array and the artificial photosynthesis system produces hydrogen that can be stored for future power production via fuel cells or converted to liquid fuel. At this scale the system is available 24 hours/day for a typical western residence, observes PhysOrg. MIT chemist Dan Nocera expounds on the technology, which could resolve hydrogen transport issues, in this video . His start-up company, Sun Catalytix, received $4 million from the Advanced Research Projects Agency-Energy

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## wynn

OK I am about to build my first solar panel but first I need some advice from the electro techies.

What do I call a timer for the geyser that fits into the DB with an adjustable dial type timer, like the dials on those 15amp plug timer fittings?

What do I call and where do I get the circulatory pump with temperature sensors to fit 22mm copper pipe?

 :Confused:

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## daveob

> What do I call a timer for the geyser that fits into the DB with an adjustable dial type timer, like the dials on those 15amp plug timer fittings?


Not certain about this, but I would imagine that a digital timer would consume less juice than a mechanical one, as there are no moving parts ?

Anyway, I bought a digital timer for my geyser from Makro for just over R200. Has a host of programs that can be set for different times / days, etc. and manual over-ride buttons.

HTH

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## hpb

> *Breakdown of typical suburban home - electricity consumption*
> 
> Water heating.....:. 45.9%
> Washing clothes..:. 2.4%
> Cooking..............:. 15.1%
> Space heating.....:. 4.1%
> Refrig/freezer......:. 15.1%
> Lights................:. 11.4%
> Other applicances:. 6.0%
> ...


Yes water heating is biggest consumer of electricity. So update your geyser/ electric water heater is the most urgent. Currently solar and heat pump water heaters are two most feasible option.

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## wynn

Now here is an interesting battery run with salt water and no acid, they don't tell what the pricing is though.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1EhnmWo2CZ8

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## SilverNodashi

> Now here is an interesting battery run with salt water and no acid, they don't tell what the pricing is though.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1EhnmWo2CZ8


salt water batteries isn't anything new, but they don't exist in the commercial market for the simple reason that they can't handle the higher loads, as explained in this video. These are fine for smaller loads at home, but that's about it. Stacking too many of those batteries will have new challenges with cabling, fuses, etc.

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## Justloadit

> Now here is an interesting battery run with salt water and no acid, they don't tell what the pricing is though.
> 
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1EhnmWo2CZ8


Pricing here 

Interesting alternative. Their statement of 1500 cycles for a lead acid battery at 50% discharge does not cover every day discharge, which is almost a quarter of that according to my experience.
I find that solar charging lead acid and doing a 50% discharge that next evening on a daily basis, yields about 200 cycles.

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## SilverNodashi

> Pricing here 
> 
> Interesting alternative. Their statement of 1500 cycles for a lead acid battery at 50% discharge does not cover every day discharge, which is almost a quarter of that according to my experience.
> I find that solar charging lead acid and doing a 50% discharge that next evening on a daily basis, yields about 200 cycles.


Ouch!

Without import freight, import duties and VAT, it would cost me R103,054.74 to replace my current 48V/225Ah AGM battery bank! Let's use their 90% DOD example, or rather let's say I can halve what I have with these batteries, then it would still cost me R51,527.37. Without freight, import duties (+10%?) and VAT (+14%). So, R64,615.32 without courier / freight! Definitely NOT cheaper than Lead Acid. 
And then support would be costly since you need to pay the freight back. 
And you need to purchase a separate DC combiner box, which could probably cost another R6K

At R 57,060.00 I can get a Lithium Iron Yttrium Phosphate (LiFeYPo4) battery, with 7000 cycles, locally. This is from one of the more expensive distributors. It'll probably cost a bit less through my own company.

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