# General Business Category > Technology Forum >  File sharing, is it just plain piracy?

## AndyD

File sharing is a plague that's bringing complete industries to their knees and leaving a sea of starving artists in its wake by blatant copyright violation and the inability of anyone to police it......or is it?  :Confused: 

File sharing makes the news as the shady underbelly of the internet that kids use to obtain the latest movies and music, the system that terrorists use to hone their bomb-making techniques, the reason the music/movie industry is on its knees. :Smile: 

File sharing is a blanket name for any system that allows for the sharing of any material in electronic format with any other computer users who would like to download it. It's also known as 'piracy' or simply theft, although there's no violence and deck swabbing involved and the original file is only copied and left untouched so these descriptions might not be technically accurate. 

In the old days this was usually done simply by someone putting that material on a web server where anyone who knew where it was could simply download it directly onto their own PC as a single file. The problem with all the material being on a server was that it was easy for authorities to take down large amounts of material by raiding one location.

Systems naturally evolved. Nowadays there are torrents. The torrent system is decentralized, the files being shared are not in one place.


From Wikipedia;
First, a user playing the role of file-provider makes a file available to the network. This first user's file is called a seed and its availability on the network allows other users, called peers, to connect and begin to download the seed file. As new peers connect to the network and request the same file, their computer receives a different piece of the data from the seed. Once multiple peers have multiple pieces of the seed, BitTorrent allows each to become a source for that portion of the file. The effect of this is to take on a small part of the task and relieve the initial user, distributing the file download task among the seed and many peers. With BitTorrent, no one computer needs to supply data in quantities which could jeopardize the task by overwhelming all resources, yet the same final result—each peer eventually receiving the entire file—is still reached.

After the file is successfully and completely downloaded by a given peer, the peer is able to shift roles and become an additional seed, helping the remaining peers to receive the entire file. This eventual shift from peers to seeders determines the overall 'health' of the file (as determined by the number of times a file is available in its complete form). 


The reality is that there's a wealth of information out there that's available through file sharing systems and is useful to the man on the street, the business owner and the tradesman. Information that would include the latest trade journals, codes and standards from all over the world. 

I use file sharing for reference material just about every week. :Stick Out Tongue:  I want to know about the latest solar energy engineering techniques, the building regulations in the Ukraine or the latest advances in LED lighting technologies file sharing is the tool I use to do it. When I've learned what I need to know I dump the material I've obtained and no longer need and on to the next project or hobby.


My question is do you think file sharing can be a valuable and legitimate tool or should it be blanket banned? Would you ever use file sharing as a way of obtaining information (and if you did would you draw the curtains first :Big Grin: )?

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## Dave A

This I know - on the webmaster forums I've frequented, torrents and torrent sites do not have a good reputation. Up until now I've never investigated why, or bothered to investigate what torrents actually are for that matter.

Andy, reading your post helps me with grasping the concept. The question arises though - what is the real motivation for splitting the files and hosting on a number of different locations? Spreading the load or circumventing copyrights?

I also recall something called Kazaa which operated on a file sharing principle, and from memory made news for security issues and running into legal problems. I don't recall how that ended though. Is the site/system still around?

How different is the Kazaa system from torrents?

And how safe are the downloads?

(Sorry for all the questions)

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## tec0

Well, in my opinion I believe that copywriting is killing creativity. Some of the best songs of the 1960s and 1950s are dead because of copywriting. Fact is a lot of these beautiful songs will never be remade because someone wants billions for it. 

The fact is, people are done with television. As in DONE with it... When you watch TV you get about 20 min of the show you want to watch and about a 40min of advertisements. Not to mention you have to wait until next week before you can see the conclusion. Simply stated people donât have the time. 

Now buying the DVD is a good way to watch the show from start to end without advertisements but it is damn costly. A DVD collection will cost you over R700+ âStill in South Africaâ I am sure that downloading stuff is actually more expensive so we normally go for the DVD set at your local store because downloading it will cost you an arm and leg and your sanity because our connections is about as reliable as a broken watch.

Honestly due to the fact that internet is so very expensive it is not worth downloading DVDs from the net. It is not worth downloading music of the net because music CDâs are inexpensive compared to a R300 cap or R10 a song ??? 

In shot if you live in South Africa downloading stuff becomes pointless! Fact is South Africa has more people buying music, games and movies legally because it is too expensive to download. Some of the new games are over 8 GB who in their right mind will download 8 GB! Hell the download on 3G will cost you more then what the game is worth! 

And if you are downloading stuff you are probably wealthy and if that is the case âshame on you!â

The truth is telecommunications industries in South Africa are sharks... there products really expensive so it is not worth the time and money to download stuff that you can buy for less at the local pawnshop, or store.   :Cool:

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## AndyD

> This I know - on the webmaster forums I've frequented, torrents and torrent sites do not have a good reputation. Up until now I've never investigated why, or bothered to investigate what torrents actually are for that matter.
> 
> Andy, reading your post helps me with grasping the concept. The question arises though - what is the real motivation for splitting the files and hosting on a number of different locations? Spreading the load or circumventing copyrights?


It works for both spreading of load and circumventing of copyrights. Torrenting is just a *method* of file sharing it can be used legally or illegally it just depends on the the user (or abuser). 

It's the old firearm problem, do you ban the firearm because it can be used to commit crimes and in doing so disadvantage the innocent people who would use them legally for self defence?




> I also recall something called Kazaa which operated on a file sharing principle, and from memory made news for security issues and running into legal problems. I don't recall how that ended though. Is the site/system still around?


Kazaa was a business that rode on the back of facilitating illegal filesharing. Torrenting is only a method. Kazaa was shut down globally around 1995. Kazaa had a VIP paid section for usersto access premium material such as the latest and greatest movies, movies and software. Users had to install the special Kazaa downloader program which was riddled with spyware, malware and trojans designed to benifit Kazaa financially. It's gone and good riddance. Out of interest though the same skollies that developed and ran Kazaa also developed and brought you Skype a couple of years later.  




> How different is the Kazaa system from torrents?


Chalk and cheese. I don't know how to answer this, it's like trying to compare the shoe company Nike to the act of walking from 'A' to 'B', they're linked but not really comparable. Torrenting is an actual method it can be used by anyone for sharing any files, legal or illegal, it doesn't belong to a company as such.  




> And how safe are the downloads?


This isn't easy to answer, I'm not exactly sure what you mean by 'safe'. It does depend a lot on the genre of the material you're downloading as well as the sources you're getting your torrents from. In this respect its exactly the same as downloading anything from the internet.

By genre;

Let's get pron out of the way first, 
Yes it's widely available and very popular. Depending how the download is packaged it might contain viruses or virii. This type of download is likely to have every hook known to man to lure you on the real porn sites. Apart from the fact I hate seeing torrenting used for this just beware if it's your thing.

Programs and software
Very widely available. Mostly illegal versions with registration and activation procedures bypassed. Can contain virii. Tread very carefully.

Music
Extremely popular and just about all music ever released is available as torrents. It's very safe and quality is invariably from good to fantastic (lossless). Most commonly lossy mp3 format but sometimes FLAC.
On a personal note I have been known to download music. Around 80-90% of what I download I'll listen to and I will delete within a day. If I like it I keep it and I will usually buy the CD when it eventually arrives locally at a reasonable price. I usually spend a couple of hundred Rands a month on CD's. Even if I buy the disk I'll usually keep the mp3's for the car and computer listening. 

Movies
Extremely popular and a very wide variety available. They work out quite heavy on the bandwidth so they're not my thing. The quality varies radically from a camcorder recording made in a movie theatre to a full HD 1080p Bluray rip which might be 4 gigs in size. They're very safe on the virus front.

TV Series
Great for ex-pats that miss their favorite soapies, same as movies for all intents and purposes.

E-Books
This is the reason for torrenting. Quality is great, usually pdf format, small download sizes and the material available is staggering and safe as houses. My problem was that I studied in the US and the UK. I became familiar at living with a public library system that could supply just about any book you cared to request in a couple of days. I use torrenting to fill that void. Similar to the music they mostly get dumped when I've read them but for me there's no substitute for the up to date, variety, speed and sheer volume of information available. The only other thing that even comes close is a website called scribd.com where I can also disappear for days on end. 


The other side of the 'safe' coin is the legallity. The honest answer to this is that I'm not sure. If I own a legal copy of a CD is it illegal for me to have the same music as mp3 files on my hardrive? I think if I buy a CD that I own the rights to listen to that music however it suits me the best. I can only listen to one version at one time. I'm not going to buy the same album twice, one for the car and one for the office. Maybe a copyright lawyer will have a different angle on this.

There's a whole mix of moral and legal issues involved and being neither a priest nor a lawyer I'm not qualified to say what is right for anyone else. My conscience is clear.

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Dave A (20-Jan-10)

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## AndyD

> Well, in my opinion I believe that copywriting is killing creativity. Some of the best songs of the 1960s and 1950s are dead because of copywriting. Fact is a lot of these beautiful songs will never be remade because someone wants billions for it. 
> 
> The fact is, people are done with television. As in DONE with it... When you watch TV you get about 20 min of the show you want to watch and about a 40min of advertisements. Not to mention you have to wait until next week before you can see the conclusion. Simply stated people don’t have the time. 
> 
> Now buying the DVD is a good way to watch the show from start to end without advertisements but it is damn costly. A DVD collection will cost you over R700+ “Still in South Africa” I am sure that downloading stuff is actually more expensive so we normally go for the DVD set at your local store because downloading it will cost you an arm and leg and your sanity because our connections is about as reliable as a broken watch.
> 
> Honestly due to the fact that internet is so very expensive it is not worth downloading DVDs from the net. It is not worth downloading music of the net because music CD’s are inexpensive compared to a R300 cap or R10 a song ??? 
> 
> In shot if you live in South Africa downloading stuff becomes pointless! Fact is South Africa has more people buying music, games and movies legally because it is too expensive to download. Some of the new games are over 8 GB who in their right mind will download 8 GB! Hell the download on 3G will cost you more then what the game is worth! 
> ...


Some ISP's are going for the large volume domestic market. 'No thresholds? download all you can.
No rolling windows? go for it. We understand downloads.'. They specifically state P2P traffic is allowed.....

I'm still laughing.

Uncapped and unthrottled even at 256kbps you could rack up some serious volume over a month for R300.00. It's not actually that expensive.

Here's another one. R125.00 for 3 gigs @ 384Kbps. Take the extra R25.00 package and you can download 15 gigs overnight. R10.00 per Gig is not too expensive.

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## desA

I have found eMule to be a very useful resource for academic books, even on a very limited connection.

Some of these books are simply unavailable, either out-of-print, or not delivered into certain regions. Typically, I scan these books for content, & if they are useful, will look to purchase them via Amazon, if they can be sourced. 

I consider this to be an ethical basis for this kind of download. Practically, some of the downloaded books are of very poor quality & if printed out in their entirety, would fill your office with lever-arch files - very difficult to read. Quality printed books are simpler in the end - if available.

Setting up eMule to download over a period of months, in the background, can be very rewarding. I have some 150Gb of useful material in my technical book library.

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## twinscythe12332

> Chalk and cheese. I don't know how to answer this, it's like trying to compare the shoe company Nike to the act of walking from 'A' to 'B', they're linked but not really comparable. Torrenting is an actual method it can be used by anyone for sharing any files, legal or illegal, it doesn't belong to a company as such.


It's closer than you think. Kazaa was a P2P application. Peer 2 Peer. you would search for your specific item (song, movie, software), add it to the download queue. the program would then check other peers for the files. the more popular your download, the more peers. 

the only real difference between Kazaa and torrenting, is that the actual .torrent files are found on websites. these .torrent files are effectively descriptions, giving a unique identity to the file. The file is still downloaded and shared through a program (utorrent, bittorrent, etc). you are still downloading peer 2 peer.




> The other side of the 'safe' coin is the legallity. The honest answer to this is that I'm not sure. If I own a legal copy of a CD is it illegal for me to have the same music as mp3 files on my hardrive? I think if I buy a CD that I own the rights to listen to that music however it suits me the best. I can only listen to one version at one time. I'm not going to buy the same album twice, one for the car and one for the office. Maybe a copyright lawyer will have a different angle on this.
> 
> There's a whole mix of moral and legal issues involved and being neither a priest nor a lawyer I'm not qualified to say what is right for anyone else. My conscience is clear.


You were legally allowed to keep a backup of the file. Most people would prefer to keep a copy of their file, and leave the CD/DVD/Game so that it doesn't get damaged. I'm not sure on the current laws regarding that (if the backup law is still in effect, Game creators should receive any number of lawsuits a day. so I think they've probably changed the laws)



This actually has me thinking. People with DVD players that can capture live TV. isn't that a form of piracy? If so, why hasn't it been removed?
and the question that goes from that: if there is a series/movie on TV, and you're allowed to capture it, would giving them to a mate to watch be illegal?

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## Dave A

My "security" concern would be virii, worms, trojans and the like. Are pdf's still safe from these demons?

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## tec0

For the most part PDF is still secure; however let us take a moment to understand piracy. It is to get stuff without paying for it. Yes recording discovery is very much illegal if “mass” distribute it and if you sell it. 

p2p is a bit like playing a computer version of Russian-roulette. Sometimes you get what you want other times you get files and the contend is totally NOT what you where looking for and other times you get a nice virus and it is time to format your PC “again” 

Now here is the thing, I buy music because the type of music I buy is normally “special additions” and the sound quality is second to none. Your MP3 may be good and sometimes will even be better than the real deal but it is just not the same. Honestly downloading music is just stupid. CD’s are cheap enough in South Africa.

Secondly really MP4 and MPG is good but damn a blue-Ray HD is the bomb! It is beautiful! It is brilliant it is beyond a crappy AVI ripped by some dude with a camera strapped on his jacket stealing it from the big screen. Watching that stuff is like trying to have sex with a rusty old cheese-grater. And I wouldn’t even bother...  

Thirdly, I like the internet for the information, the news THE FORUMS and social networking with total anonymity. I use it to communicate and to stay informed not to mention play bit of online gaming. For everything else I go to my favourite music store and see what I can afford and what is worth saving up for. That and I also go to the local pawnshop because there is always a good game that someone gave up for a R50 or so. 

But that is just me,   :Slayer:

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## AndyD

> It's closer than you think. Kazaa was a P2P application. Peer 2 Peer. you would search for your specific item (song, movie, software), add it to the download queue. the program would then check other peers for the files. the more popular your download, the more peers. 
> 
> Kazaa was a business that tied you to a peice of proprietary software to download with. The Kazaa server was the only place the available downloads were indexed for selection by the users.
> 
> the only real difference between Kazaa and torrenting, is that the actual .torrent files are found on websites. these .torrent files are effectively descriptions, giving a unique identity to the file. The file is still downloaded and shared through a program (utorrent, bittorrent, etc). you are still downloading peer 2 peer.


As you say, torrents are indexed and available through thousands of sites and there are many programs (clients) you can use to download them (utorrent, vuze, being the most popular but the list is long). These differences are major even though the actual protocols that control the sharing process are similar.




> You were legally allowed to keep a backup of the file. Most people would prefer to keep a copy of their file, and leave the CD/DVD/Game so that it doesn't get damaged. I'm not sure on the current laws regarding that (if the backup law is still in effect, Game creators should receive any number of lawsuits a day. so I think they've probably changed the laws)


Laws vary from country to country but generally you are allowed to make back-ups of disks you have bought. When you buy music for example you buy the rights to listen to those songs contained on the disk. Even if the disk becomes unplayable, in theory you still have the right to listen to those songs even if you play them from another source such as a hard drive of a back-up disk. The big problem however is that in many countries it's illegal to circumvent the protection systems (DRM) on the original disk to do this. It's a farcical situation that penalises only the people that paid for the music.  




> This actually has me thinking. People with DVD players that can capture live TV. isn't that a form of piracy? If so, why hasn't it been removed?
> and the question that goes from that: if there is a series/movie on TV, and you're allowed to capture it, would giving them to a mate to watch be illegal?


I read an article only the other day about exactly this. If I can find the link I'll include it later. You would think that if a TV program was transmitted without any restriction for all to see that there wouldn't be a problem it being freely distributed. Apparently this isn't the case. Distributing the TV program is illegal.

Edit This was the article.





> My "security" concern would be virii, worms, trojans and the like. Are pdf's still safe from these demons?


Pdf's are very safe from maliciousscripts of any kind. Same with mp3 files and avi files. I think at worst they could contain links to dodgy websites but the risk of a direct infection for any of these file types is very low.





> For the most part PDF is still secure; however let us take a moment to understand piracy. It is to get stuff without paying for it. Yes recording discovery is very much illegal if “mass” distribute it and if you sell it.


People who sell non genuine movies, games and music for profit mostly do it the old fashioned way, face to face on the markets or in pokey back street shops. People won't buy illegal material on the internet when they can download it for free if they want.




> p2p is a bit like playing a computer version of Russian-roulette. Sometimes you get what you want other times you get files and the contend is totally NOT what you where looking for and other times you get a nice virus and it is time to format your PC “again”


You are right, there is a risk of surprises when something you download isn't exactly what it says on the tin. With a bit of savvy you can avoid the rubbish. Most sites you get the torrent files from have a user comments on the page. If there are virii of if the torrent is sub-standard people are quick to post comments accordingly for everyone else to read. 




> Now here is the thing, I buy music because the type of music I buy is normally “special additions” and the sound quality is second to none. Your MP3 may be good and sometimes will even be better than the real deal but it is just not the same.


From a quality point of view mp3s will always be inferior in quality to the original because mp3 is a 'lossy' format. Mp3's can be encoded to various bitrates. High bitrate mp3's are large files of good enough quality that if you use anything less than high end audio equipment you won't tell the difference. Lower bitrate mp3's still sound good to most but they are smaller file sizes. Downloads of lossless music in FLAC format are the way to go for the purists.




> Honestly downloading music is just stupid. CD’s are cheap enough in South Africa.


CD's are not expensive but if you like non-mainstream music it can be difficult to find. I remember a few years ago a CD cost more than double the price it does today. Maybe piracy was a factor in the radical price reductions since then. 




> Secondly really MP4 and MPG is good but damn a blue-Ray HD is the bomb! It is beautiful! It is brilliant it is beyond a crappy AVI ripped by some dude with a camera strapped on his jacket stealing it from the big screen. Watching that stuff is like trying to have sex with a rusty old cheese-grater. And I wouldn’t even bother...


I agree, full HD is spectacular. :Smile: . The CAM recordings you mention are often bad quality. If however the downloaded movie is from a bluray source and is encoded to 1080p then it will be full HD quality.




> That and I also go to the local pawnshop because there is always a good game that someone gave up for a R50 or so. 
> 
> But that is just me,


If you buy a game you buy the rights for you to use it. You never own the code that's on the disk. I might be wrong but I don't think those rights are transferable to someone else. I think it's illegal for that game to by resold by you. If you buy a second hand game from a pawn shop no offence but aren't you depriving the makers of that game of income?

Edit. I just read through the post, no offence is meant to anyone. When I say 'you' please don't read it like I'm pointing a finger, I mean 'everyone' not just you.

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## Dave A

I think when it comes to recording TV (and "rebroadcasting" across multiple TV sets), it's legal as long as the recording is viewed on the same property where it was recorded. Applicable in individual residential units but not applicable if the rebroadcast would form part of a commercial service.

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tec0 (21-Jan-10)

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## twinscythe12332

> If you buy a game you buy the rights for you to use it. You never own the code that's on the disk. I might be wrong but I don't think those rights are transferable to someone else. I think it's illegal for that game to by resold by you. If you buy a second hand game from a pawn shop no offence but aren't you depriving the makers of that game of income?
> 
> Edit. I just read through the post, no offence is meant to anyone. When I say 'you' please don't read it like I'm pointing a finger, I mean 'everyone' not just you.


That's a debate that has been around for ages. Reselling of games isn't illegal. If it was, places like gamestop would have been shut down and fined. Heck, if it was illegal, how could the original resellers sell the game?
In most EULA, it specifies that the game may be installed on and used on one computer at a time only. that stops the game cafe down the road from buying 1 copy and having it on 10 PCs.

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tec0 (21-Jan-10)

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## tec0

Well in honesty if you buy anything form a pawn-shop it is not going to be profitable for the game-makers artist and so on. And PS3 games normally donât have codes or registration problems. Also technically they are still legal. 

Now the truth is the artist and other authors will always demand millions for their arrogance and think they are worthy of every singly ting and is indeed empowered by law to push the public around.  :Mad: 

Right now I am battling it out with steam. They sold me a computer platform game but the game canât play without heavy massif updates. My argument is âthere is a big difference between registration and downloading the rest of the damn gameâ before it will work.  :Whistling:  

And I think this is the case and point: Pirate Games donât need updates to work and it will play without the CD or DVD.  But because I am the legal owner of the game I donât qualify to enjoy it. No I must first register the damn thing then I need to do the massif costly updates. Then only after all that is done can I enjoy a game that is now costing me more than PS3 ânew titleâ game.  :Censored: 

When it comes to write protection, companies can basically to a virtual âdate-rapeâ and according to our laws it is legal. There is no consumer law protecting us against âincomplete retail gamesâ so there is nothing we can do about it. 

So this makes for a nice case and point scenario: Legal gamers suffer more because they have to basically prove with each purchase that you didnât steal it. But Pirate Games is just happy-sessions because they can download â play and even LAN the game without any problems. 

Now as for music you canât find in South Africa... Well the music I listen to can only be found in Scotland, Sweden and if you lucky there are online stores that will ship it to you at a cost of about R460 a CD âthat is what I payâ takes about 3 months. Sometimes I can order it locally... And if you talk to importers like âwant it allâ they are sometimes â90% of the timeâ able to help so I donât pay as much anymore.

The utter truth is I spend a lot of money to buy the legal stuff and keep my nose clean. Face it these authors and companies will happily destroy a young boy or a young girlâs life if it is to scare people into buying there crap legal. 

In a way it is a war, and right now if I canât own it I donât want it. But make no mistake if retailed games can drop to R100 a game and music to R50 a CD and software can drop from R1200 to just R400 or even R300 Piracy will be dead in a year or two. The truth is some people use pirate stuff because the legal stuff is just too expensive and in the end it is always about the economics.

rock on  :Slayer:

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## AndyD

> When it comes to write protection, companies can basically to a virtual âdate-rapeâ and according to our laws it is legal. There is no consumer law protecting us against âincomplete retail gamesâ so there is nothing we can do about it.


This also gets my goat. It's perfectly legal for legal owners to make a back-up. The distributors install copy protection that stops you doing this. Then it's legislated that it's illegal to bypass the protection even if it's stopping you from exercising your legal right to make a back-up. 




> So this makes for a nice case and point scenario: Legal gamers suffer more because they have to basically prove with each purchase that you didnât steal it. But Pirate Games is just happy-sessions because they can download â play and even LAN the game without any problems.


DRM only persecutes the innocent. 





> The utter truth is I spend a lot of money to buy the legal stuff and keep my nose clean.


So do I but I like to listen before I buy.




> In a way it is a war, and right now if I canât own it I donât want it. But make no mistake if retailed games can drop to R100 a game and music to R50 a CD and software can drop from R1200 to just R400 or even R300 Piracy will be dead in a year or two. The truth is some people use pirate stuff because the legal stuff is just too expensive and in the end it is always about the economics.


I think piracy is so rife because the music and movie industries are so slow to adapt their business models to accommodate what the public want.

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## tec0

Well the intention is clear copy-write is here to stay and we will pay dearly for software in the coming future as the Rand keeps on losing value. It is for this reason that I switched over from PC games to PS3 games. Fact is a PS3 game will work with the provided hardware. 

PC games will not work. You need to constantly upgrade your computer and a proper gaming PC will set you back round about R10000 and within only 4 months it would lose about 40% its value and by the end of the year you will have to upgrade again. It was this concept that killed the PC game in eyes. 

PS3 games will work and you don’t have to do any real upgrading on it for 1 to 2 years and it will cost you R4500 “depending on the shop in question” Yes I agree that PC games are more fun because you can get trainers and proper working cheats and stuff but sadly at what cost?

Still here is the truth behind pirating. Large disrupters are looking for max profits and do not understand that more sales are actually the key to success. Pirating will stay popular because people want to watch TV shows without any interruption and more importantly they want to watch as much as possible in the little time they do have. 

In South Africa, internet television is just an impossibility because:
A>> it is too expensive.
B>> Slow Service

Yes you do get alternatives and some people do use it because it is simply cheaper. So sadly you end up with shows on TV that is interrupted every 2 minutes by a million adverts and expensive DVD collections as mentioned before. But I will just wait until I can buy it on Disk and watch it on my own time in HD “if the option allows itself” 

Right now Digital decoders are our only option and we cannot even enjoy new shows... Yet it gets advertised but look at the time slots? It is just stupid. Some shows is on a permanent rerun loop in South Africa there is just not anything new! Sadly you still pay a lot of good money to view old stuff.

So I dumped the decoder and my TV set. Got a nice big LCD computer monitor and DVD player with a VGA interface. It works well and I have a few bucks to spend on DVD’s every month. Some months I have to order stuff and wait a bit, but in the end I get the entertainment I want... 

The internet is my news source so I am not missing out on anything anyway. As for television in South Africa, in my eyes it is dead. So DVD Players  with VGA capability and PS3 systems is my new found hobby and it is less expensive than paying for a decoder filled with old shows.      


rock on  :Slayer:

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AndyD (22-Jan-10)

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## SilverNodashi

File Sharing is not piracy! File Sharing is merely a tool, or "vehicle" to make pirating music / DVD's / software / etc easier. 

By killing / stopping / banning file sharing, you're not going to treat the problem, but simply get the pirates to get other ways of doing it. Piracy has been running since the old BB's and newsgroups and they still use those tools as well.

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AndyD (22-Jan-10)

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## tec0

The truth is âit is never the toolsâ but it is who uses the tools. See file sharing is as old as the first network and files can be anything. Fact is some people just want to communicate and share their findings others use it for profit and other more damaging content.

These are the facts and like it or not. I will not say P2P is a good thing because it is simply not a good system. There are too many abusers and âbad contentâ to call it good. The fact is P2P was designed to be anonymous and almost untraceable.

Still, P2P as a tool is not illegal... but as a tool it can be abused.

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## AndyD

> The fact is P2P was designed to be anonymous and almost untraceable.


The bittorrent protocol is not anonymous. Without getting too technical, the nature of how it works means ipaddresses of peers are resolved. Even using the encryption options built into most torrent clients ipaddresses are easily harvestable by doing nothing more than taking the .torrent file and joining the swarm with a standard torrent client such as utorrent or vuse.

As far as I can see the only possible way to use torrents anonymously would be to run a VPN but it would probably be at the expense of speed. Maybe the TOR network might help but I'm not sure if they allow bittorrent protocol traffic or not.

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## tec0

Well, the fact is your ISP knows exactly what you do and when you do it. They know what you watch and what you search for. They know what webs you access and they will even call your mom if you use b**b!e. 

Ok... ok... they will not call your mom when you log on to b**b!e but I imagine they will very soon. The fact is the internet is killing itself by taking away anonymity and they give stalkers a wonderful new tool to abuse... 

So nothing is private anymore and we are at the mercy of supper hackers that will wipe your electronic existence from the net and make it impossible for you to live and then make a 15 minute HD video clip where you are sitting helplessly on the streets begging for money. Then they will use pigeons âthat is proven to be faster than Telkomâs digital linesâ to forward there Data along with their personal bragging rights. 

All this while the big bad internet lawmen is tracking down and imprisoning children for downloading a new song from a P2P network. Then good old mom and dad will sit with a heavy lawyer bill and a criminal for a child.  :Helpsmilie: 

The point I am making here is we the citizens of the internet is under a heavy attack and belief it or not we are losing it. So spend the money get the legal stuff at the shop and keep your nose clean. That is basically all we can do.  :Surrender:  

In the end of the day when enough children is in jail and enough people are so angry a massif consumer strike will hit these blood sucking companies and they will lose so much money that they will have to renegotiate.  :Sorry:  

There is always the odd chance that people might stand together and say enough is enough.  :Shoot:

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## AndyD

You're right that ISP's know what their customers are up to but if I wanted to hide my internet activities from my ISP I could, it's just more trouble than it's worth if you aren't trying to hide anything. Even if I was doing something illegal I have a right to privacy, I would only expect my ISP to hand out any personal details or usage logs if there was a court order presented to them. 




> There is always the odd chance that people might stand together and say enough is enough.


Given by the massive number of normal people involved maybe file sharing is exactly that, people saying 'enough is enough'. Maybe it's protest at the inflated prices of movies, music and (some) software. Maybe it's protest at the lack of fair use  tolerated by the courts when it comes to copyright cases. 'Fair use is a right granted to the public on all copyrighted work. Fair use rights take precedence over the author's interest.'

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## twinscythe12332

speaking of torrents and the like, take a look at 
http://www.mininova.org
It used to have an absolute ton of stuff. now it too has had a leash put on it by the authorities.

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## tec0

The responsible thing to do is always get originals where and when possible. I too hate the fact that we have to pay so much money for the stuff we enjoy but sadly the system is structured that way. Personally I only keep with originals because people havenât learnt to negotiate with big companies yet. 

If and when they do, file sharing can become legal and even profitable. See I myself would like it if it was possible to buy songs over the net without a bloody Credit-Card! Not only will I not have to wait 4 to 12 weeks for my music but I will buy more music because it would have been easy. 

Secondly, it would still be legal. So if it was I and I wanted to protect P2P âfor whatever reasonâ Organise a consumer strike of note and force negotiations. Explore with what is possible and then just maybe there is an opportunity to make things better.

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## twinscythe12332

I've moved into getting my games original recently. I used to get my games at lans and such, but I'm cutting that down in favour of getting originals. 
The thing that gets my blood boiling is when these massive music and game studios start talking about how piracy is "killing their ability to create games/reducing sales". Last time I checked you're still making a massive profit off the rest of us with your pricing schemes, and the ferrarri is still parked outside your mansion.

I'd love to buy(and download) stuff online, but considering the price I'd have to pay per meg, it'll cost me as much as the song they're selling, and more for a game. The model may work in countries with high speed uncapped internet connectivity, but it's a different story over here. 

Going with what tec0 is saying, how is this for an idea. A D0wnl0ad bar. This would be a central point with a high speed uncapped connection. You would walk in, possibly be given a tablet PC or sit down at a computer. you search for what you want, and add it to a download basket. You choose how it will be stored (DVD and CD will be available at the store, or you could bring in your own memory stick that would be wiped clean before use), and then go to the front counter like you would at any music store. The cashier takes your money/ swipes your debit card/ swipes your credit card, and you're given a ticket with a time on it. come back at that time, everything is done and placed onto your preffered storage medium, and you're happy.

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tec0 (25-Jan-10)

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## tec0

I totally agree with this idea, and it will work because you will be able to pay cash... and I think that is the main thing âcashâ. The second fact we as South Africans face is that not all of us are running around with an internationally recognised credit-card.  This will be a good way to get internet commercialisation a fresh new income and it will still be legal. 

Secondly, I think there will not be such a thing like âsorry sir we donât have stockâ This will be a wonderful and very powerful sales system with almost endless applications. It will give the virtual world a physical presence and as I stated before it will allow a new form of cash flow. 

If the companies in question will allow this there will be a few new marketing opportunities and best of all you can get what you want when you wanted. A lot of people are into other types of music that is not available here. This medium will provide a marketing strategy as well as advertisement. The possibility would be endless. 

Nice one!!  :Cool:

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## twinscythe12332

The beauty behind this would be that you do not need a major capital investment. you need the high speed connection, some computers, somewhere to set up shop and perhaps a few on hand assistants. Because everything will be downloaded for the customer, there isn't a need for stock and stock counts.

But here are the pitfalls: 
Returns cannot happen. How can you return something that could have already been removed from the medium?
Depending on how much a person wants to download, it may take a day or two. is that person willing to wait?

I like the idea of being able to download one song off of an album rather than buying the entire album, especially when it's one of these three CD monsters that the ministry of sound likes to put out.
I also like the idea of setting users up on different stores so they can personally track what they have had downloaded (and thus prove they have the rights).

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## AndyD

I like the idea for all the reason above. If you can listen before you commit to buying then a returns policy wouldn't be necessary.

Unfortunately the realist in me doesn't see it happening. The successful artists can make lots of money but by far the biggest earner in the music industry is the distributors. With the kind of model discussed above there will be no more CD or DVD disks and the distribution can be done by the artists themselves either individually or in groups. I don't see SonyBMG et al taking this lying down.

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## tec0

The truth is why giving the customer what they want? See the point is that most artist and entertainment companies will not comply and rather put children in prison then to lose money. And I will say this over and over again it is about the money... always about the money... 

See you need to give the above mentioned a reason to consider digital media as a legit form of income. How? With a simple consumer strike. Stop going to the movies. Stop buying DVD or CD. Stop buying games. Just simply stop... Then you give it a year and trust me after a year of not selling a product a lot of companies will be willing to listen because they are the once losing. 

All I am saying is give them a reason to listen.

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## Dave A

If it's controllable and they're still getting their royalties it stands a chance. Look at the _Nokia with music_ package I'm seeing advertised. It has to be legit.

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## twinscythe12332

> The truth is why giving the customer what they want? See the point is that most artist and entertainment companies will not comply and rather put children in prison then to lose money. And I will say this over and over again it is about the money... always about the money... 
> 
> See you need to give the above mentioned a reason to consider digital media as a legit form of income. How? With a simple consumer strike. Stop going to the movies. Stop buying DVD or CD. Stop buying games. Just simply stop... Then you give it a year and trust me after a year of not selling a product a lot of companies will be willing to listen because they are the once losing. 
> 
> All I am saying is give them a reason to listen.


America's war on terror is likelier to end before everyone goes on a massive consumer strike. Nobody wants to forego their luxuries.

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## tec0

Nokia with music is a legit system; however it might be a bit expensive. Still it is a step in the right direction. Right now, companies are claiming to lose millions because of âdownloadsâ. I donât care if this is correct or not because in the end these companies could have made it more legit and more accessible to download contend.

Still they would rather scare people and force people to do it their way! And I think this is why there is this resistance and why more and more people are downloading stuff. Face it these big companies want to stay in control and they have enlisted the help of politicians to do their bidding.  :Devil2: 

See companies that act like this has only one thing in mind. Do it our way or get nicked. However donât be fooled P2P file sharing might be dead "for now" but as it is the internetâs nature âit will find another more secure less visible wayâ Why, because you will always get those who will resist! Make no mistake P2P is here to stay. 

Still I would rather just buy stuff until others realise that âsacrifices need to be madeâ so that systems can change.

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## twinscythe12332

bt games preplayed policies
I found this little gem online (while searching for a game store that doesn't try to rip me off). They don't take pre-played PC games because of the EULA. I have a feeling it's because the game can be installed, cracked and then the disc be given in, whereas a PS3/XBXOX 360 game doesn't get installed onto the hard drive.

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## tec0

Yes well I donât care if it is new or not. Second hand PS3 Games, music CDâs and DVD that is in good condition is my preferred way to pick up stuff. I buy them from anyone that is sick of their old stuff and I donât really care if it is a disagreeable practise. The game is an original it doesnât need registration and I can still use it where it would end up as a shiny target for a BB-gun. 

Honestly if the PC games companies in question gets there way it will be easier to buy a legal gun in South Africa then what it will be to buy a game. Is this what they want then I will be happy to stop buying PC games and spend the money on stuff like alarms for my car or a good fishing-rod. Perhaps even take up self-defence classes or start a stamp collection. What about I start gambling instead. 

Right now the âsecond handâ game market is the only real way for me to get games. If I canât do that anymore then my PS3 and Xbox just lost their use and I will no longer support their market. See the second hand games I get from them are normally in reasonable condition and some almost new so it is worth supporting the second hand games market.    

Now I wish I get something like this: 

http://www.azuradisc.com/?gclid=COyF...FQtgZwodZnRLdg

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## tec0

Got an E-mail from steam today, I made the suggestion that they must add an option where you can do a once off download with the size of the download specified. I told them that in South Africa downloading can be an expensive hobby.

I hope they take this suggestion to heart because if they want to continue to sell games that need updating before it works then this is a good compromise because you can bugged for the download needed.

I also suggested that they state on the back of the âboxâ that downloading updates will be required for their games to work.

Well thanks >>> Steam <<< for actually answering e-mails. It shows commitment and is commendable.  :Applaud:

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## twinscythe12332

funnily enough, you got into steam at the right time. considering your experience with them, this may sound completely bonkers, but I'll explain. a couple of years ago, I attempted to register my halflife GOTY collection with them. Someone had already taken the serial, so I emailed them saying I had the originals, what were they going to do?
I was told that I would need to post the serials to them at my cost. I told the guy that's ridiculous, the SA post service will have them lost in minutes and having to pay postage to america is almost worth as much as the games were. I asked whether I couldn't just take a picture of the serials and send them to him that way. after all, no one is going to be thick enough to allow someone to take a pic of their serials. Nope, couldn't do that, had to mail them.

last year, I decided I'd try again. this was just after I had installed the first left4dead, and wanted my half-life updated. I asked if the serials were on an old account, and they gave me an account that I didn't own. So I said that wasn't mine, they asked me to TAKE A PICTURE of the serials with the ticket number on it. I did so, and they freed the serials for my use ^^.
So if you had been using their service a little while ago, you would have popped a vein in your head.

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tec0 (28-Jan-10)

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## tec0

Probably would have...  :Rofl:  Yes I must admit my temper get the best of me. I would have posted them the game in very small unusable pieces to make the cost a bit less too.  Yes but tell you what if they are open to suggestions then it is a good thing because people can communicate and their products will be more useable.

It will be a win-win for them if they keep it up and allow us to download what we need to get it going.  It is not too much to ask really. Something like a nice single compressed file would to the trick and people will use the links especially us in South Africa

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