# Regulatory Compliance Category > Labour Relations and Legislation Forum >  employment conditions

## Pap_sak

Hi guys - wonder if you can help.

My "empire"  :Embarrassment:  is growing and will be opening another small shop on the 1st of October. I now need to get more professional in my approach to running them as I soon I will need to register for vat. I have now taken on a bookkeeper for a few hours a month.

My next big task is to give the employees all terms of employment - but where to start? What are the requirements?  Does lunch have to be taken outside the shop, or can it be taken inside the shop? How does public holiday pay work? Is there minimum pay? 

All help and links would be greatly appreciated.

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## Spencer

Hey there, 
 You have two options, go to the Labour Website, the have a basic conditions of employment summary there for you to look at.

I've also found Fleet Street Publications' Practical Guide to Human Resources Management very useful. The File contains all the niggly aspects that we sometimes miss. The cool thing about this publication is that they send you updated sections as the labour law changes and shifts.

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Pap_sak (25-Sep-09)

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## Dave A

Great to hear your empire is growing, Pap sak  :Thumbup: 

Have you got an employment contract in place for your existing staff?
Or is this just about the subtleties?

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## Pap_sak

Hi Dave, not as yet, have been a bit slack in that department. Haven't even written down what days they have already taken leave....

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## Pap_sak

2.2	Ordinary hours of work : Section 9

No employer shall require or permit an employee to work more than-
(a)	45 hours in any week;
(b)	nine hours in any day if an employee works for five days or less in a week; or
(c)	eight hours in any day if an employee works on more than five days in a week.


*would anyone know if the lunch hour is included in that and is the lunch hour paid for?*

2.6	Meal intervals : Section 14

2.6.1	An employee must have a meal interval of 60 minutes after five hours work.

2.6.2	A written agreement may-
(a)	reduce the meal interval to 30 minutes;
(b)	dispense with the meal interval for employees who work fewer than six hours on a day.

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## Dave A

Breaks aren't included in working hours and wouldn't be included in pay if your pay is based on an hourly rate.

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Pap_sak (26-Sep-09)

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## Dean01

> Hi guys - wonder if you can help.
> 
> My "empire"  is growing and will be opening another small shop on the 1st of October. I now need to get more professional in my approach to running them as I soon I will need to register for vat. I have now taken on a bookkeeper for a few hours a month.
> 
> My next big task is to give the employees all terms of employment - but where to start? What are the requirements?  Does lunch have to be taken outside the shop, or can it be taken inside the shop? How does public holiday pay work? Is there minimum pay? 
> 
> All help and links would be greatly appreciated.


Hi There, 
Have you tried Seesa they are labour consultants, for about a grand a month they will come out set up policies for you, set up labour contracts for you, represent you at any ccma r labour court hearings etc check out www.seesa.co.za
Hope that helps
Dean

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Pap_sak (26-Sep-09)

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## Pap_sak

Cheers for that Dean -little on the pricey side for me at the moment

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## tec0

This can’t be right? 45 hours? Are you sure? Is there any exception to this law? Fact is most steel plants is a 24 7 industry. Now in general if you don’t work more than 168 hours in two weeks you don’t make any money. Your pay without overtime is barely able to sustain you. 

Now most people that work on the production side of the steel plants work around about 336 hours a month just get a good pay and sometimes if the bosses demands it, the workers must work about 420 hours without any kind of leave. In more than one occasion I was told by a few people that they have to use their own personal leave just to get a break.

Now the unions are fully aware of this situation but they never acted? So I asked again is this just a general law for commercial businesses or is this an actual law for everyone? 

Just as a footnote, if those workers don’t get overtime there income drops with more then 70%???

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## Morticia

No, as far as I'm aware those hours are in terms of Basic Conditions of Employment Act.  Could your example not be attributed to the fact that as apprentices these guys earn a mere pittance (e.g. +- R790 per week as 2nd year apprentice) and (as you say) in order to survive they elect/request to work those long hours?

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## Dave A

It's because bargaining councils can amend basic conditions of employment for their industry segment. You'll likely find there's a collective agreement that has allowed these long working hours.

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## tec0

I all honesty I think that there was a bit more âbargainingâ then just longer working hours. The conditions are downright dangerous and people have lost their lives and yes there are proceedings taking place. However, when it comes to safety based on the âOccupational Health and Safety ACTâ there is really no safety at all. 

The machinery and equipment is barely in a working state let alone properly inspected or maintained. I was told of numerous accidents âlost time injuriesâ that gets reported as minor injuries just to keep the paperwork happy.  :Confused: 

So yes it is possible that these bargaining councils did agree on these dangerous hours, but that does not explain why the union representatives are so passive about reporting unsafe conduct and "bad" practices. 

I cannot help but wonder if these bargaining councils do any kind of inspections because right now they are allowing for labour abuse. Basically these workers get blackmailed to work these hours and are forced to work these hours because there money depends on it. 

So where it the monitory system if any? Laws are useless if not enforced. So the point I am making is that you donât need to play by the rules if you donât want to because basically nobody cares.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 

Now this is ONLY my opinion and I hope that those that donât play by the rules get what is coming to them.          :Innocent:

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## Fitness freak

Metal industrial got different rules check there website
www.meibc.co.za

work only 40 hours a week and not more than 10 hours overtime otherwise must arrange with MEIBC

min pay is R22.06 a hour for general worker for example in the motor trade min pay for general worker is R 13.91

If employee work shifts then must increase his rate with 15% for night shift
and if employee work on a public holiday he get more than double pay he get 2.33

this is a couple of things where the Metal Industry is different from others

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Dave A (29-Sep-09), tec0 (30-Sep-09)

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## Frankincense

....Terms and Conditions of employment are based on the fundamental principle of:

"He who hath the Gold maketh the rules"...one only has to see the slave labour going on in the mining sector as they die like flies....

Money can really make people turn a blind eye :No: 

@tec0: "So yes it is possible that these bargaining councils did agree on these dangerous hours, but that does not explain why the union representatives are so passive about reporting unsafe conduct and "bad" practices."

The Barganing Councils and Union Representatives are not there to defend the rights of the workers nor to change mainstream operations for the better, they are there to preserve the interests of the Gold holders who* authorized thier existence* and who's staff are paying thier salaries via subcription fees.  Usually the councils just cover up gross Mr. Meaners before they go public by throwing cash at the victims.  They are reluctant to bite the hand that feeds them. A little strike here or there will do, that's enough.....

 :Cool:

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Dave A (09-Oct-09)

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## Pap_sak

It looks like the "safe" option is to close the shops for 1/2 hour a day - probably between 12H00 and 12h30. My problem is that for security I need two people in the shop at all times, and on most days there are only 2. Whats the chances you can put in lunches must be taken in store, or pay double to have it in store, or give time off to have it in store...any of these would be better than closing for half an hour, but are any legal?

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## sterne.law@gmail.com

The lunch hour is not included, unless it exceeds an hour. Overtime has a number of side issues and can be altered, by agreement and subject to the Basic Conditions. An employee can/may work upto 10 hours overtime per week, paid for.
Different sectors have different minimum wages. Public holidays - if they work on the day they get paid for that day plus 1 days wage in lieu of the day missed, hence the term double pay. www.labourprotect.co.za and www.labourguide.co.za are good websites as is the labour department site.  I myself am a labour consultant and you can get me on sterne.law@gmail.com

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Pap_sak (27-Oct-09)

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## dellatjie

So if you work 7 days a week, overtime will only be paid if you work more than 56 hours (8 x 7)?

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## CLIVE-TRIANGLE

The Basic Conditions Of Employment Act is basically the "bottom line". No agreement, whether collective or individual, can afford an employee less rights or less favourable conditions of employment.

Read the Act. It is written in plain English, is not too long and frankly a numbskull can follow it.

The various bargaining councils' collective agreements deviate, in some cases substantially, from the Act. But always the employee is favoured. Reading the conditions of employment contained in their collective agreements, exclusive of the Act and the LRA, is just folly.

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## Garf

Most of what you need to read is here - https://www.labour.gov.za/ - but don't fall out with the Tax Man (SARS, Revenue Services not the Virus) that can be very, very expensive, all your employees need a tax number and you must submit a return twice a year even if there is no tax payable.

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## Franb

I have an HR consulting Company.  You will be surprised how many "larger" businesses do not have the basics in place and this causes endless headaches.  So well done for wanting to do it properly now.  I will be happy to forward standard letter of appointments and information to get you strated.  Email me a list of what you need. I am new to this site and hope that I can leave my email address for you. frances.badenhorst @gmail.com

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## Blurock

> I have an HR consulting Company.  You will be surprised how many "larger" businesses do not have the basics in place and this causes endless headaches.


It is sad that there are still people out there trying to screw their workers. Yes, it is not only SMME's that do not have the infrastructure, but big corporates too. The CEO's of these big companies often state that their staff is their biggest asset, so why then treat them as if they are dispensable?

In marketing we know that good service is not what we think it is, but how the customer experience or perceive it. The same applies to staff. Put yourself in their position and see if you would be happy with working conditions etc. (see under cover boss on Discovery channels)

I believe a lot of HR and IR problems can be pre-empted by having more compassion and the right attitude to staff. Experienced staff are more productive and can save you a lot of money in training cost, problem solving and finding new, innovative ways to do things.

I am not advocating for higher salaries or staff benefits. I am just asking for employers to be fair and to do the right thing. Do not for instance deduct UIF, pension and tax and not pay it over. Do not cheat your employees or discriminate between different departments or business units. Be fair, be a true leader. :Wink:

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