# General Business Category > Marketing Forum >  Does SEO really work?

## Gaynor

Hi guys.

I have a couple of sites which include blogs. I've never really 'bothered' much with SEO. I just write, and usually my pieces are quite long and comprehensive - I like to think I know what I'm talking about. I don't post that often either, maybe once or twice a month. It's a time thing. So my hits are fairly low (although I've never compared them to anyone else's).

Writing is a bit of a passion for me and I think if I had to research which words everyone else is using and include them it might be a bit of a killer. So, what I want to know is if anyone else has REALLY had a lot of success with targeted SEO or PPC and has seen a dramatic increase in numbers?

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## JoeK

It works really well.
If you are targeting a local audience you can rank high on Google quite quickly. For an international audience it is a bit more difficult but with the right keywords you will get results. I highly suggest investing in good keyword software.

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## Gaynor

Thanks JoeK. Do you have any software you prefer?

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## GertH

Gaynor, I can see that you're not very familiar with SEO, so I'd advise you to not look for some app or software that "does SEO". You will waste your money and time, guarenteed.

SEO is not something that you can just do quickly with an app. Sure there are some apps to help you along the process, like Keyword Research, Title Optimization, PageSpeed Optimization, Link-building etc, but no one app will "do SEO".

I see your website is built on Wordpress, you can download a plugin called "Yoast SEO". This will help you optimize your posts for certain keywords to get your on-site SEO a bit better, but 50% of SEO involves off-site SEO. Off-site SEO refers to things you do to improve your rankings on external websites and platfroms.

Let me know if you need some help setting up Yoast or anything really  :Smile:

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Kathy50 (21-Jan-18)

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## Citizen X

My layman thoughts, if a million people visit any given site and not a single product is sold, then it doesn't work :Wink:

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## GertH

> My layman thoughts, if a million people visit any given site and not a single product is sold, then it doesn't work


That means your SEO efforts are working at least, it's the product or service that's the problem...

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## HR Solutions

Gert How long have you been going ?

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## vieome

I think Google has long killed S.E.O. How do you optimize your site when you are in competition with the search company that is selling paid per click advertising. 
One can pay for S.E.O to try to get to the top of the rankings, or one can pay google adds, who do you think will get you to the top of search?

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## Xplosiv

The nature of SEO has changed, but SEO still works.
One of the old methods was keyword stuffing, but these days search engines don't even look at keywords anymore (that is, the <meta name="keywords" content="all your spammy keywords"> tag).
It is still important to define your keywords and try to use them in your title tag, first heading and early in your content.
Keyword density is also a thing of the past. If you try to use it more than seems natural, the search engine algorithms kick in to mark your site as suspect.
If you have a blog, it's better to post regularly. Search engines don't like stale content.
Social media also helps, so link your blog to Facebook, Twitter, Diggit, Pinterest or any other such site(s) that you are active on and tweet, comment, pin and or like often, especially on related subjects.
Just a few ideas, but done properly, SEO works without Google Ads or PPC.

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## Marq

> That means your SEO efforts are working at least, it's the product or service that's the problem...


More likely , your site sucks.
People would not have clicked if they did not need the service or product.
Design is a key factor which will retain interest and your bounce rate will be a lot better if you have something good to look at which has been well presented.
Relevant content, regularly updated seems to work the best along with your key words in the url and sprinkled around the site.
I am not sure how Google weighs in with back links and resources these days - they used to have it way up the weightings but seem to be keeping quieter about it now.

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## GertH

> Gert How long have you been going ?


Long enough to know what works  :Wink:

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## HR Solutions

> Long enough to know what works



Well I have been looking for someone to do some work for us (as you might have seen from another thread) , but with a snotty comment like that ..........

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## GertH

> Well I have been looking for someone to do some work for us (as you might have seen from another thread) , but with a snotty comment like that ..........


No, I haven't seen this from another thread. My comment wasn't meant to be "snotty" either - you're question was a bit vague, "Gert, How long have you been going?". I wasn't too sure what you meant by that, so the best assumtion I could make was that you we meant; how long have I been doing SEO for and if you've been in the SEO game or know anything about it, you would know that saying "I've been doing SEO for X years" means absolutely nothing.

I've been working with a few people that claim they are SEO's, and some of them have even been doing it for over 10 years, but yet they don't know much, they can do the basics but when it comes to large corporate sites, they have no clue where to start. The guy that introduced me to SEO and taught me about 10% of what I know right now, has been doing SEO for over 8 years, but today he's techniques and skills are so outdated it's not even funny. 

So to come back to why it might have sounded "snotty", I didn't want to say "I've been doing it for 4 years" (which is the true amount of time) as that statement means absolutely nothing so I thought a better answer would be; long enough to know what works. Hope that makes sense  :Smile: 

Oh and about the work you want done, I don't do "odd jobs", but I'll gladly refer you to a couple of guys that's doing some great work at the moment, it all depends what you're looking for. Are you targetting local, national or international audiences? Product or services? Niche etc?

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## HR Solutions

Gert - do you not ever consider that when you are asked how long you have been doing something - people are trying to gather some info because they might not want to use someone that has been doing it for 2 months !!  We are a medium size company with LOTS of "IT" work to be done.  As you may know or perhaps don't know there is a shortage of IT people.  There are lots of people who say that can do IT, but they can't - hence my question.

Oh any by the way I wasn't looking for someone to do "odd" jobs.  You seem to be totally on the wrong path here .... perhaps it is the Cape Town thing.

Did you not perhaps at all think that your signature might just get someone interested ....... or now not interested in this case ?

You are just around the corner from us ...... therefore my interest.

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## GertH

Ah, I see, I hope you didn't gather that I've been doing SEO for 2 months based on my initial comment on this thread.

Also, I doubt I'm around the corner from you. If you're refering to the location of the company in my signature, I do not work at their office, a friend of mine owns the agency and I help them out as much as I can  :Smile:  They do solid work and cater for small to medium SME's.

I totally agree with the lack of IT related skills in SA, especially in Cape Town... Walking into businesses and having to work with their "IT" team that barely knows MS Office is quite worrying...

Do you you own www.2hrs.co.za? If you do, you can start by building some solid citations. Your current link profile is pretty much non-existant, with a link to domain ration of 12:2.

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## HR Solutions

> Do you you own www.2hrs.co.za? If you do, you can start by building some solid citations. Your current link profile is pretty much non-existant, with a link to domain ration of 12:2.


I know that and the website is crap.

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## GertH

> I know that and the website is crap.


Just checked the SERPS and there's close to no competition for "recruitment specialist" keywords, there's a site on the 1st page with a DA of 8... Get the basics right and you should be able to dominate  :Smile:  Very low hanging fruit

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## HR Solutions

> Just checked the SERPS and there's close to no competition for "recruitment specialist" keywords, there's a site on the 1st page with a DA of 8... Get the basics right and you should be able to dominate  Very low hanging fruit


The website is used for our candidates to upload their cv's ....... not to advertise our company, ..... but Im sure you figured that out.

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## GertH

> The website is used for our candidates to upload their cv's ....... not to advertise our company, ..... but Im sure you figured that out.


I see  :Beta1:

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## nathanmiller99

If you are getting visitors and they are not buying, then you have to re-check the page and make it more attractive.

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## HR Solutions

Our candidates don't buy

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## thatiand

You've probably noticed by now that pay-per-click ads have been increasingly taking over more and more of the search engine results page. I've been noticing an acceleration in that trend, particularly recently

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## Gaynor

Thatiand, yes - have seen similar things - also that Google seems to give preference to things that have been posted on Google+ (the only useful thing I've noticed about Google+). On an unrelated subject, do you perhaps know anything about Google Adsense? I have a hosted account and ads are not displaying on my site even though the block is there. Can't find answers to the problem.

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## Justloadit

> You've probably noticed by now that pay-per-click ads have been increasingly taking over more and more of the search engine results page. I've been noticing an acceleration in that trend, particularly recently


And the amount of irrelevant advertising when browsing for a specific item on Google is also getting out of hand.
I have also noted that if there is more than one page to an article, the amount of hunting through the number of advertising click blocks cluttering the page almost hiding the next button is also highly irritating.

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## Xplosiv

uBlock Origin is available as a free extension for Firefox and Chrome and blocks ads effectively.
I didn't realise how much clutter was out there until I browsed on a friend's PC and saw my usual pages with ads.
Highly recommended for those sick of having ads forced down their throats.

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## gavinMA

This is a really big topic. The short answer is yes, it really does work, but it depends on what you do.

SEO is really complicated these days, with over 200 ranking factors going into the Google algorithm. A lot of people who do it don't even like to use the term 'SEO' any more as there have been so many dodgy people calling themselves that over the years who have given it a bad name by trying to 'game' the system through keyword stuffing and dodgy link building.

Moz.com have a lot of great info if you want to try and pick up the basics yourself rather than just trusting somebody else to do it for you and run the risk of them making use of 'black hat' techniques which could get you banned from Google Search entirely. This is a great place to start: https://moz.com/beginners-guide-to-seo. Knowing a bit more about it can really help you, even if you do get someone else to do it for you, just so you can pick up if they are making use of outdated and dodgy techniques.

The problem is, nobody actually knows how it works. Google won't tell you. Some people have been doing a lot of research into how it works, but they don't really know, and Google changes their algorithm all the time (up to hundreds of times a year).

The basics are pretty much:

Have good quality, unique content that people want to read and that is useful.
Try and get links to your site from good quality sites. 
Make pages for specific search intents, and try and include the keywords for that search intent in the URL, Title, Header and first paragraph of the page, and write some good content around that topic on the page, without obviously trying to stuff keywords into the page. It must still be readable and useful to a user. Don't just try and make your site for a search engine.
Make your site as fast a possible.
Make your site responsive or at least mobile friendly.

But there is so much more. Depends how far down the rabbit hole you want to go. 

And with regards to Adwords (Paid advertising through Google), those ads appear in different places to organic search results. They can appear above organic results (up to 3 ads), but usually are on the right hand side. A lot of people don't click on ads, or block them. Paying for ads will never increase your search rankings (according to Google), and I believe them. Also, why would you want to pay for a click when you can appear for 'free'? In my experience visits to my sites from Adwords aren't as good quality as organic Google visits. The sessions last shorter, don't view as many pages and don't convert as often into leads or sales. So organic is always better.

That's my 2c. Hope it helps.

Gavin

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Dave A (28-Jan-16)

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## Dave A

> In my experience visits to my sites from Adwords aren't as good quality as organic Google visits. The sessions last shorter, don't view as many pages and don't convert as often into leads or sales. So organic is always better.


The part that would worry me about that is the lower conversion rate coming from ad clicks compared to organic SERPS clickthroughs. That's not healthy and indicates a problem, either with the ad content, ad keyword targeting, or the landing page content.

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## gavinMA

Hi Dave

Thanks for your input. You got me worried there when I read that this morning. But then I started thinking a bit about it.

We have fairly high brand recognition for some of our divisions, so a large portion of organic visits are brand queries. We don't advertise on that. We tend to stick to advertising the terms we don't rank well on. That could be the reason.

Also our industry is maybe different to most. A huge majority of the visitors to our site are people looking for work. When I say conversions I'm talking about clients contacting us with a job spec. (We're an employment agency / labour broker). I don't count conversions for job-seekers uploading CVs or anything like that. I'm trying to optimise our paid advertising towards finding leads that bring in money to our company. So I guess its not that surprising that organic visitors have better engagement, as they will be spending more time looking at different jobs on our website than someone wanting to use our services to find a placement.

Truth is its a struggle to find the right keywords for our Adwords, and we 'waste' a lot of money on jobseekers clicking on our ads, when we really want to be spending the money on finding clients. I've been trying lots of different specific searches, really trying to isolate the client's intent, but still pick up lots of jobseekers. I guess the thing is there are millions of people looking for work, and nowhere near as many looking to pay for our services.

Out of interest, what are other people's experiences with the difference between organic and PPC user engagement / conversions? Do others find one or the other is better? Or are they the same?

Gavin

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## Gaynor

Thanks Gavin. That's some food for thought. I haven't experimented with PPC yet - but I do notice that organic searches are usually more indepth and better quality than say, referrals.

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## workshop

The problem with Adsense is that it gets more and more expensive to advertise, the more popular your chosen key words become. And when you eventually decide to stop paying your site drops off the radar. Whereas organic results work the other way around. Once you have visibility, as long as you keep Google ticking, your content matures and adds value to the results you want.

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## KelleyJames12

SEO changed a lot in past few years.. Its not just a game of link building now..but its not dead and it can never die. Each time google provide the updates, SEO take different look. This is  like the same when people say that blogging is dead every year.

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## Dave A

> Truth is its a struggle to find the right keywords for our Adwords, and we 'waste' a lot of money on jobseekers clicking on our ads, when we really want to be spending the money on finding clients.


I've found exactly the same challenge in my areas of interest. When it comes to short-tail keywords relating to the trades, the number of searches by would-be students and job seekers far outnumber enquiries from clients looking to spend money to receive the particular service (in most instances by in excess of 20:1).

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## Greig Whitton

> I've found exactly the same challenge in my areas of interest. When it comes to short-tail keywords relating to the trades, the number of searches by would-be students and job seekers far outnumber enquiries from clients looking to spend money to receive the particular service (in most instances by in excess of 20:1).


Would you mind posting a sample ad? Some of the bright minds on these forums might pinpoint opportunities for improving the copy and dissuading the wrong audience from clicking on them.

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## Dave A

> Would you mind posting a sample ad? Some of the bright minds on these forums might pinpoint opportunities for improving the copy and dissuading the wrong audience from clicking on them.


Just changing the ad copy to "dissuade the wrong audience from clicking on them" would be a very bad move as it will lower your CTR. What you need to do first is improve your keyword settings so that your ads only show up in front of the right audience. 

Your ad is actually competing in Google's ad auction based on its CPM, so a lower CTR would require a higher CPC to compensate. A lower CTR is also an indicator that it is less appropriate an ad than one with a higher CTR for the same search phrase, so you'll be pushed down the ad list on that issue too.

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## Greig Whitton

> Just changing the ad copy to "dissuade the wrong audience from clicking on them" would be a very bad move as it will lower your CTR.


Done properly, it would only lower your CTR for the people who you aren't trying to attract. Which is a very good thing.




> What you need to do first is improve your keyword settings so that your ads only show up in front of the right audience.


There is no keyword setting for screening out people who have no interest in buying.




> Your ad is actually competing in Google's ad auction based on its CPM, so a lower CTR would require a higher CPC to compensate. A lower CTR is also an indicator that it is less appropriate an ad than one with a higher CTR for the same search phrase, so you'll be pushed down the ad list on that issue too.


Your Google Quality Score is determined by a number of factors and CTR is just one of them. Even if a lower CTR did raise your CPC, the money that you save by not having the wrong audience click on your ads can still generate a better return on investment.

Consider the following (simplistic) example: a business consultant sells advisory support to small business owners. His original ad looks something like this:

Need small business advice?
Get awesome advice & grow your business!

100 people click on the ad. 5 of them are owners in stable, established SMEs (his target audience). The other 95 are either startups or people thinking about starting a business who aren't willing to pay for professional help (the wrong audience).

So he changes his ad to this:

Need small business advice?
Get awesome advice from just R999 p/hr & grow your business!

The price point immediately dissuades the vast majority of the wrong audience (since they have no interest in paying for something) while signalling perceived value to the right audience (i.e. it's much easier to attach perceived value to a market offering when you know how much it will cost).

Let's assume that the new ads delivers the same 5 clicks from the right audience, while reducing clicks from the wrong audience to 10 instead of 95. Yes, his overall CPM may increase, but he's not paying for all of those wrong clicks. More importantly, he dramatically improves his conversion rate since he's no longer sending hordes of people to his website who aren't the right market for his service.

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## workshop

Is Adsense SEO? Surely not. Would it not make more sense to be advertising on niche speciality web sites that filter out the noise factor?

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## Dave A

> Let's assume that the new ads delivers the same 5 clicks from the right audience, while reducing clicks from the wrong audience to 10 instead of 95. Yes, *his overall CPM may increase*, but he's not paying for all of those wrong clicks.


But he's still paid more overall to get the 5 people who were real prospects  :Stick Out Tongue: 




> There is no keyword setting for screening out people who have no interest in buying.


No? 
Here's an obvious example - add "free" to your excluded keywords list.

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## Greig Whitton

> But he's still paid more overall to get the 5 people who were real prospects


Even if he doubled his CPC, he would still end up with a substantially better ROI by cutting out the low quality clicks.




> Here's an obvious example - add "free" to your excluded keywords list.


People who aren't interested in paying for goods or services don't always include "free" in their search terms.

Anyway, my invitation to share some of your actual ad copy so that I (and others) can propose suggestions still stands. Use it, don't it.

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## Dave A

> Is Adsense SEO? Surely not.


There are some linkages.

AdSense (the publishing of ads) performance is affected by onsite SEO when it comes to Google matching ads appropriate to the content of the page.

Adwords performance (the placing of ads) can be influenced by the onsite SEO of the landing page.

Thinking Google SERPS in isolation - Google Analytics will give you stats for organic (i.e. SEO only) and paid (i.e. Adwords) search results. 




> Would it not make more sense to be advertising on niche speciality web sites that filter out the noise factor?


Absolutely. Provided the price is right.

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## Dave A

Thanks for the offer, Greig. When it comes to my niche markets, my company actually identified and solved the issue years ago. I only mentioned it to endorse Gavin's observation on the subject.

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## Greig Whitton

> Thanks for the offer, Greig. When it comes to my niche markets, my company actually identified and solved the issue years ago. I only mentioned it to endorse Gavin's observation on the subject.


What was your solution?

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## workshop

> Absolutely. Provided the price is right.


It's more complicated than that. Advertisers will invariably get it all wrong. They get stuck in the present rather than over the course of time. They talk about site instead of page or post. They demand numbers and hits rather than targeted views. They don't understand cheap and they don't understand the need to grow what they start into a cost effective return. I even battle to get them to see the value of hard leads and enquiries. 

But I suppose that has a lot to with me and the way I present it.

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## workshop

Times were, when you used to set up a site and then go looking for other webmasters in your same niche, to exchange links. As you would greet and exchange pleasantries with  another villager. Then came the directories and in particular the free directories. Google even recommended these listings as a means of getting your site to rank. It was a very simple concept. Directory owners would offer free listings in exchange for content. They would monetise their sites by offering premium listings as well as from Adsense adverts placed on the sites. And there was an unwritten rule whereby you would click on two or three of the adverts after placing your free link.

This system worked extremely well for all. Your web site would start popping up on Googles first page with little or no effort at all, the directory owner would be generating an income from their sites, Google was raking in paid advertising and the advertisers were getting all the hits they wanted. That is, it all worked until the damned accountants got involved and started asking difficult questions. Questions no one understood, like sales and conversion ratios and this spoiled it for everyone. 

Google started getting silly and the bottom dropped out of a very lucrative industry, virtually overnight.

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## workshop

> Hi guys.
> 
> I have a couple of sites which include blogs. I've never really 'bothered' much with SEO. I just write, and usually my pieces are quite long and comprehensive - I like to think I know what I'm talking about. I don't post that often either, maybe once or twice a month. It's a time thing. So my hits are fairly low (although I've never compared them to anyone else's).
> 
> Writing is a bit of a passion for me and I think if I had to research which words everyone else is using and include them it might be a bit of a killer. So, what I want to know is if anyone else has REALLY had a lot of success with targeted SEO or PPC and has seen a dramatic increase in numbers?


Maybe this should read does Google work? Of course it works. It works despite everything. And that is in part because of what we do or what most people don't do. Google offers us the most cost effective means possible of reaching the audience looking for our product or service. The next question is how? And this is where it starts getting complicated. Not because Google is complicated. It is because people are complicated. They bumble about and get in the way of common sense and logic. 

There is an answer for every situation. And it is just a pity that all the experts out there will never admit that they don't know or that what they profess to know is all a question of trial and error. 

With Google there are no guarantees. Just a few very simple principles. And passion is most definitely one of them.

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## Gaynor

Ha! And all of this to my befuddled brain... well ... my site ranks at no 3 for some of the related keywords, in Google.co.za. I'd like it better than that. I'm considering buying the Squirrly app as it seems user friendly and helped me when I was able to use the free version. Does anyone have any experience or comments on it?

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## workshop

I use All in One SEO. Not because it is the best. But it is free and that is the plugin I started with. Be careful of trying to get too technical and too clever. This is not complicated stuff. It just takes time and as long as you have a clear strategy and understand that Google is looking for useful information you should be fine.

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Gaynor (09-Feb-16)

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## GertH

If you're looking for something basic to get you off the ground, I would recommend Yoast SEO. It's a simple Wordpress plugin (if you're using Wordpress) that will help you optimize single pages on your website and help you target specific keywords.

SEO is a long term thing and there's not much value in it if you're not willing to do proper research and do it properly, it's not a "simple" thing as some mention, it's hard work and acquiring relevant, trusted, contextual links is anything but simple.

Get your on-page SEO right and you'll see some improvement in the SERPS, but don't ever think that a plugin like Squirrly, All in One SEO or Yoast SEO will do all the work for you.

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## workshop

> SEO is a long term thing and there's not much value in it if you're not willing to do proper research and do it properly, it's not a "simple" thing as some mention, it's hard work and acquiring relevant, trusted, contextual links is anything but simple.


I am assuming that you are taking issue with my use of the word simple. Can't see any other simpletons around here. So it must be. Maybe I should have used the word common sense rather than simple. I don't disagree with you. But I don't see the need for all the hype and mumbo jumbo. And to put it into context you use the words _relevant, trusted, contextual links_. What precisely do you mean? And in particular I have an issue with the use of that word trusted. It has an evangelical ring to it.

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## GertH

> I am assuming that you are taking issue with my use of the word simple. Can't see any other simpletons around here. So it must be. Maybe I should have used the word common sense rather than simple. I don't disagree with you. But I don't see the need for all the hype and mumbo jumbo. And to put it into context you use the words _relevant, trusted, contextual links_. What precisely do you mean? And in particular I have an issue with the use of that word trusted. It has an evangelical ring to it.


In my opinion, saying something is "simple" implies that it's easy and/or fast. SEO is anything but easy OR fast and people get the idea that SEO is "simple" from all the snake-oil "SEO gurus" who sells SEO packages for $10. Inexperienced people invest the bare minimum in SEO and don't get an ROI and as a result of this, they ask questions like the title of this thread - "Does SEO really work?".

The words relevant, trusted & contextual is anything but mumbo jumbo, in fact, it's the exact opposite, it's laymans terms. If I said: "you need to build links that has a high topical trust flow on Majestic SEO", who would understand this? Definitely not people who debate that SEO might or might not work...

Trusted links are links on trusted websites. The new tax law that's being implemented in March; if you read about this on a website called HackTheInternetWithKittenJuice.com and read another article stating a different definition of the law on Capetown.gov.za, which article would you believe? The government website of course (if it's not obvious...) Well, Google works in a similar way, it puts trust in certain websites based on a number of factors, thus the layman term "trusted" links.

Relevant links are links from relevant websites. If your dentist recommends Colgate toothpaste and the guy selling avocados on the street corner recommends you buy his homemade avocado flavor toothpaste, who will you trust? The dentist of course... Toothpaste is relevant to what he does. Getting a link to your construction company website from a hair salon website is not a relevant link, thus the layman term "relevant" links.

Contextual links are links that come up naturally within a piece of content on the web. Pretty straight forward. Don't go placing an image all over the web that links to your website. I cannot explain this any more simpler.

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## gavinMA

Yeah as Gert says, those plugins are only for on-page SEO. There are many other factors which influence your rankings. Links (from trusted sites) to your site are still a large part of ranking highly, as well as things like mobile friendliness and fast page load speeds.

Here are some (free) tools I've been using which I find really useful. There are also many other paid tools which can do a whole lot more, but I'm guessing anyone who is not a professional SEO wouldn't want to pay for those.

Moz Bar - https://moz.com/tools/seo-toolbar - Chrome Add-On. See metrics (Authority, Trust, Spam rating etc) for the site you are visiting, and even inserts these metrics into SERP results. Can also use it to highlight Follow / Nofollow links and more.

Adwords Keyword Planner - https://adwords.google.com/ko/KeywordPlanner - (Need to have an Adwords Account) Allows you to see search volume for keywords and recommends new keywords similar to the ones you provide.

Keyword Tool - http://keywordtool.io/ - Suggests other well-used keywords based on your own, by using Google autocomplete.

Open Site Explorer - https://moz.com/researchtools/ose/ - Can check the links, anchor text etc leading to your site, can also be used for competitor backlink research. Really doesn't pick up all of them though.

Google Analytics - https://www.google.co.za/analytics/ - Tracks all kinds of stats for visitors to your site. Essential.

Google Search Console - https://www.google.com/webmasters/tools/home - Many interesting things here, can see the search terms used by visitors to your site, and what your average rankings are for those terms. Can recommend techniques for speeding up page loads. Also tells you which sites are linking to yours.

GTMetrix - https://gtmetrix.com/ - Great tool for analyzing page load speeds with lots of suggestions for how to speed this up.

That's what I can think of off the top of my head. Anyone else got any useful tools?  (Especially free ones..)

Gavin

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## workshop

Not sure how you get to fast from simple. Simple people tend to speak slowly. Country people are more often than not simple and the pace of life slow and for some tedious. Often they are also practical and if one can be excused for generalising, honest. So no, simple does not mean quick results and short cuts. But it does mean easy to understand and easy to do.

The problem is all the mumbo jumbo which works for no one. Not for the experts nor those who are asking questions and looking for answers. 

How does Google tell one site apart from another? The short answer is, it can't. A link is a link. And some links are just more effective than others. They carry a bigger punch. Google does have an algorithm where they weight and evaluate sites. In gobbledy-gook this gets twisted into that trust factor you speak of. The snake oil market that has been built up around this industry. 

Trouble is, you don't get the sort of links you want. It's simple. Trusted sites, authority sites are those that don't link out for the asking. So the question that needs an answer is how does one build value links. And the simple answer to this question, is over time. If you manage to get a site to link to your site you want it to remain in place for a long as possible. Links are like a good wine. They mature with time. 

Relevant? I have a problem with relevant. Google does not understand, cannot fully comprehend the complex relationships that exist in the real world. Yes a link from a page that is relevant to the content contained on your site is preferable. But it would be stupid to get anal about relevance. Links from travel sites for example. How do you pigeon hole them?

Contextual, relevance? Are these two not the same? Or have you omitted to use the term _anchor text_ ? Possibly the most important factor when looking for a ranking. Anchor text is the phrase in the content that is hyperlinked and points to the page being optimised. You haven't mentioned organic link building either and once again I have a problem with that. Organic links seldom come with the anchor text one wants.

This is where SEO becomes a community build and group effort. This is where the consultants need to work with instead of for the client, where SEO starts to overlap with social media marketing and where it becomes part of an ongoing multi-faceted campaign.

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## BusFact

When not getting bogged down in the minutae of word definitions and meanings, you both seem to be saying the same thing. Its a slow process that takes time and requires consistent effort to build momentum, but ultimately is worth the trouble.

The various tactics and mechanisms used to make this successful as quickly as possible? Well yeah, those can be debated forever.

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## workshop

You are not wrong. We are saying the same thing. We are talking about the same thing. And we agree that this is a process. The question is whether one needs tips, tricks and techniques because it is complicated or because fishing in deep waters is a pastime enjoyed by some and misunderstood by many?

SEO is essentially a process which involves optimising your web site site content so that it can be found by Google and then building links to ensure that Google gives it a preferential ranking that gets it seen by the visitors you are targeting.

The question I am asking, the question I first started asking ten years ago, is how one acquires those _trusted_ links, the authority web sites simply do not dish out for asking?

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## GertH

> When not getting bogged down in the minutae of word definitions and meanings, you both seem to be saying the same thing. Its a slow process that takes time and requires consistent effort to build momentum, but ultimately is worth the trouble.
> 
> The various tactics and mechanisms used to make this successful as quickly as possible? Well yeah, those can be debated forever.


You summarized it pefectly, BusFact  :Smile: 





> You are not wrong. We are saying the same thing. We are talking about the same thing. And we agree that this is a process. The question is whether one needs tips, tricks and techniques because it is complicated or because fishing in deep waters is a pastime enjoyed by some and misunderstood by many?
> 
> SEO is essentially a process which involves optimising your web site site content so that it can be found by Google and then building links to ensure that Google gives it a preferential ranking that gets it seen by the visitors you are targeting.
> 
> The question I am asking, the question I first started asking ten years ago, is how one acquires those _trusted_ links, the authority web sites simply do not dish out for asking?


Of course one needs tricks, techniques, skills or whatever you want to call it, I can assure you that not just anyone can build a silo e-commerce site and build a 50 domain PBN around that silo'd e-commerce.

As for acquiring high PA / DA links on trusted, relevant domains, there's millions of ways to do this, link building comes in all shapes and sizes. Guest posts, article syndication, press releases, branded infographics, there's A LOT of ways to get the links you want. Some publications even accept payment for links, an average link on Huffington Post or BBC will go for around R15,000... Yep, R15,000... but building up contacts over the years with media outlets is much more valuable. At my previous company we had a database of over 10,000 contacts of editors in different industries (travel, IT, advertising, fashion, news etc). One mailer got us around + - 100 links. It's not impossible to get the links you want.

Contextual links and relevant links are not the same thing. As I mentioned before, relevancy depends on industry / niche related, a blog about kittens links out to a blog about dogs, that's a relevant link. 

Contextual links are links that are surrounded by content. You might get a relevant link on a website, but if it's only a huge image that links to your website, with no wording around that image, the link is not contextual, even though it's on a relevant website. Links do not always need to have achor text (text link). A balanced achor profile is essential. If you spam your keyword in all your achor text links, you won't get far. Over optimization is a thing...
We usually try to get as close as possible to the following ration:

15% - Naked URL: e.g <a href="http://takealot.co.za">http://takealot.co.za</a>
15% - Exact Keyword: e.g <a href="http://takealot.co.za">Online shopping</a>
25% - Branded: e.g <a href="http://takealot.co.za">Takealot</a>
15% -Branded Keyword: e.g <a href="http://takealot.co.za">Takealot Online Shopping</a>
25% - Long-tail Keyword (phrase): e.g <a href="http://takealot.co.za">Online Shopping in South Africa</a>
5% - Other: e.g Image links, No-follow links, social bookmarks etc

This is not a precise thing though, as long as your anchor text has a variety and it's not just a bunch of exact match keywords you want to rank for, you'll be okey.

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## workshop

> the question I first started asking ten years ago, is how one acquires those _trusted_ links, the authority web sites simply do not dish out for asking?


It is not everyone who is building a silo e-commerce site and that 50 domain PBN around that silo'd e-commerce. That is where the problems start. If we don't get the basics right we are going to lose the plot. The internet is about information, about people sharing information, communities facilitating the exchange of information, knowledge and even skills. Right or Wrong?

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## HR Solutions

> If we don't get the basics right we are going to lose the plot. The internet is about information, about people sharing information, communities facilitating the exchange of information, knowledge and even skills.


Everyone that has access to a computer shares some information on it - there is no right and wrong and they are not going to "lose the plot".  Just because people do things differently doesnt make it wrong.

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## workshop

Right in a sense. But we are talking about SEO. If I remember correctly you asked a question earlier in this thread and you didn't particularly like the answers you were given. This is what I call losing the plot. If we don't get the basics right, things tend to go a little haywire. SEO is something you start and have to nurture and grow. Third party links are not everything. But they are critical. And the question I am asking is how one acquires those trusted links, those links which authority web sites simply do not dish out for asking?

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## HR Solutions

> If I remember correctly you asked a question earlier in this thread and you didn't particularly like the answers you were given. This is what I call losing the plot.


Oh really ! Do you now ......?
Clearly I am then losing the plot and not on the same level as you.

I remember on another thread you said you battled to fit in with people .................. mmm I can see that.

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## workshop

No need to go off the deep end. You really are a man-of-war, taking offence where none was intended. I am merely illustrating what happens when one loses sight of the basics. And if I may repeat myself




> ...the question I am asking is how one acquires those trusted links, those links which authority web sites simply do not dish out for asking?

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## GertH

> No need to go off the deep end. You really are a man-of-war, taking offence where none was intended. I am merely illustrating what happens when one loses sight of the basics. And if I may repeat myself


workshop, we follow a kind of old fashioned "PR" angle when it comes to reaching out to bigger sites. To put it into simple steps:

1.) Reach out and introduce yourself, e-mail or tweet as many editors as you can about something you have planned. e.g e-mail a reporter at TechCrunch and tell them you are creating an interactive chart that shows how much hours each Fortune 500 company is spending on SEO. Ask them if they would be interested to see it.

2.) Create the best content you possibly can.

3.) Send them the content, be it hosted on your blog or on a publishing platform such as Medium.com

4.) Wait for links  :Smile: 

5.) Offer to create something branded for their site, such as another chart that shows hours spent on social media or whatever.

Point is, no one is just going to link to you for the sake of linking, you have to provide value for them or their readers.

Something that might help you start off is HARO, HARO is an abbreviation of Help A Reporter Out. Go sign up as a "Source" http://www.helpareporter.com/
You will receive daily emails of reporters asking questions, you can answer these questions and position yourself as an expert and get a few links out of it. This is the easiest way to get a few odd high authority links (mostly branded / naked URL links).

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## workshop

It sounds much harder than it should be. And the question that begs to be asked is whether it couldnt be done a lot simpler and more importantly cheaper. What happens if one creates a site that corporate, government and third parties link to and just keep on linking to? Would that not be the sort of site that would be worth getting links from? Taking it a step further if one created a dozen sites the first site links to, would these dozen sites not be the sort of sites one wants to get links from?

And before anyone starts accusing me of talking about and promoting link farming, that is precisely what I am talking about. Surely it is a lot easier to farm the links one needs?

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## workshop

No takers? GertH you are not going to rise to the bait?

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## Greig Whitton

> And before anyone starts accusing me of talking about and promoting link farming, that is precisely what I am talking about. Surely it is a lot easier to farm the links one needs?


Yes, it is easier. But it is also vulnerable to manipulation and unethical practice - which is precisely what so much link farming deteriorated into years ago. Search engines evolved to counter this, which is why link building is no longer simple and easy today.

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## workshop

Yes and no. But what is the difference between community building, networking and link farming? Links still work. Third party links and anchor text are still critical to any SEO campaign. What is the alternative to manipulation and unethical practices?

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## Greig Whitton

> Yes and no. But what is the difference between community building, networking and link farming?


While there are a number of important distinctions between link _farming_ and link _building_, to my mind the most important is that the former is concerned with link quantity (to the potential detriment of search engine users) while the latter is concerned with link quality (to the potential benefit of search engine users).




> Links still work.


But not all links are equal.




> What is the alternative to manipulation and unethical practices?


Authenticity and integrity.

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## workshop

> Authenticity and integrity.


So if we built authenticity and integrity into a link farm would it be reasonable to start talking about organic link farming?




> ......how does one build value links? The simple answer to this question, is over time. If you manage to get a site to link to your site you want it to remain in place for a long as possible. Links are like a good wine. They mature with time.


And




> What happens if one creates a site that corporate, government and third parties link to and just keep on linking to? Would that not be the sort of site that would be worth getting links from? Taking it a step further if one created a dozen sites the first site links to, would these dozen sites not be the sort of sites one wants to get links from?

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## Greig Whitton

> So if we built authenticity and integrity into a link farm would it be reasonable to start talking about organic link farming?


How do you propose building authenticity and integrity into a link farm?

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## workshop

Before we go there what happens if one creates a site that corporate, government and third parties just link to and just keep on linking to? Would that not be the sort of site that would be worth getting links from? Taking it a step further if one created a dozen sites the first site links to, would these dozen sites not be the sort of sites one wants to get links from?

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## Greig Whitton

> Before we go there what happens if one creates a site that corporate, government and third parties just link to and just keep on linking to? Would that not be the sort of site that would be worth getting links from? Taking it a step further if one created a dozen sites the first site links to, would these dozen sites not be the sort of sites one wants to get links from?


My impression of what you have described is a vast link farm that favours quantity over quality so, no, this wouldn't be something worth linking to (for all of the reasons already mentioned).

How is what you have described any different from the link farms that were so popular years ago? (and that Google has rendered irrelevant)

How do you mitigate the manipulation and unethical practices that plagued those link farms historically?

Even if you can mitigate these historical black hat trends, how do you convince Google that what you are doing is ethical?

Finally, even if you can convince Google, how do you create the site-specific relevance and context that separates junk links from quality ones?

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## workshop

Why would public listed companies and government agencies link out to a vast link farm that favours quantity over quality? What I asked was




> what happens if one creates a site that corporate, government and third parties just link to and just keep on linking to? Would that not be the sort of site that would be worth getting links from?


 The second part of my question was



> if one created a dozen sites the first site links to, would these dozen sites not be the sort of sites one wants to get links from?

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## Greig Whitton

> Why would public listed companies and government agencies link out to a vast link farm that favours quantity over quality?


Exactly.

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## workshop

We need to move on to your last question




> Finally, even if you can convince Google, how do you create the site-specific relevance and context that separates junk links from quality ones?


But before we do, assuming it is possible to  create a site that corporate, government and third parties just link to and just keep on linking to? Would that not be the sort of site that would be worth getting links from? Taking it a step further if one created a dozen sites the first site links to, would these dozen sites not be the sort of sites one wants to get links from?

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## Dave A

Workshop, you have a knack for repeating yourself over and over and over. Would you mind moving onto your point.

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## workshop

I have asked a question but I am not getting an answer. For some reason, those that know about these things are a little skittish and you are dancing around the point I wish to make. But not a problem. If there is no interest, there is no reason in flogging a dead horse. Which I suspect is what you are trying to say.

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## Greig Whitton

> But before we do, assuming it is possible to  create a site that corporate, government and third parties just link to and just keep on linking to? Would that not be the sort of site that would be worth getting links from?


No.




> Taking it a step further if one created a dozen sites the first site links to, would these dozen sites not be the sort of sites one wants to get links from?


No.




> I have asked a question but I am not getting an answer.


Are those answers unambiguous enough for you?

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## workshop

No. But it is getting a little complicated. And SEO is everything but complicated. So that gives us nothing to discuss.

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## Dave A

> I have asked a question but I am not getting an answer. For some reason, those that know about these things are a little skittish and are dancing around the point I wish to make.


What happens if the answer you get doesn't suit the point you're aiming to make?

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## HR Solutions

> Workshop, you have a knack for repeating yourself over and over and over. Would you mind moving onto your point.



Shew .........I thought it was just me ...........

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## workshop

> What happens if the answer you get doesn't suit the point you're aiming to make?


One needs to approach issues using logic and reason. So that results and solutions follow. But if we can't even turn the key it makes the discussion pointless.

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## Dave A

> But if we can't even turn the key it makes the discussion pointless.


If you can't navigate to your point, it might be said your strategy is pointless  :Devil2: 

If you have a point to make and you believe there's merit in it, perhaps try a different route. Around here, trying to lead the witness is a bit like herding wild cats.

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## workshop

> How do you mitigate the manipulation and unethical practices that plagued those link farms historically?


Sharing is caring. But it would appear to get more complicated than it is worth.
Nothing new in that and a lesson learnt many years ago.

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## erowman

SEO is a constantly changing field and because of this you have to be on the ball all of the time, being willing to change tactics and strategies. Most people know now that content is king and as well as good link building, it should see you do just fine. Make the content relevant and interesting, as well as having good keyword implementation. I read somewhere that the average amount of words on the first page of Google was something like 1870. "Content is King".

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## soum500

hello
I earn my living with online blogs, for organic visitors is vital to me. Search engine traffic is targeted, excellent for promoting your service and products.

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## workshop

> hello
> I earn my living with online blogs, for organic visitors is vital to me. Search engine traffic is targeted, excellent for promoting your service and products.


This is what I do not understand. The opportunities are endless. Opportunities as rampant as the abuse of all the free resources there are. Yet nothing is ever said or done about the potential to unlock what is an index of possibilities. What we end end up with are smug looks, ho hums and out stretched hands.

Why do we not encourage others to make the mistakes we can all learn from, if we share and actually communicate?




> SEO is a constantly changing field and because of this you have to be on the ball all of the time, being willing to change tactics and strategies. Most people know now that content is king and as well as good link building, it should see you do just fine. Make the content relevant and interesting, as well as having good keyword implementation. I read somewhere that the average amount of words on the first page of Google was something like 1870. "Content is King".


Yes and no. You can get a blank page to rank for uncompetitive key words. And in my mind that is more important than bamboozling an emerging entrepreneur with the need to write and write and write. Not all of us are that confidant. Google understands this and is a lot kinder to potential start-ups than anyone cares to admit. Neither do I agree with need to be constantly changing tactics and strategies. Google is a huge cumbersome beast that takes a long time to digest the mistakes we make. 

I have been disputing this Content is King Thing since 2007 I think.

However I have recently had to change my stance. It is real. Or maybe I should say key word stuffing the title tag is not as effective as it used to be. What I always used to do was to stuff as many key words into the title tag as I could. This because it always used to work. I would then over the course of weeks months and years bleed most of them down into child pages. It always used to work. 

But I recently had experience with a site that was particularly sluggish. After draining the title tag and adding the jumble of key words as content, the pages I worked on bounced back into the search results almost immediately. 

Conclusion?

Admit you are wrong. Sober up. And try to do it right.  :Frown:

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## GertH

Wow, completely forgot about this forum until I got an email notification on a response to this thread. Haven't been on here, probably since the last response (which I see is 1 June 2016). Anyway, I agree with you, workshop. The days of keyword / title / meta keyword stuffing is over, it was over about 5+ years ago to be honest.

This is what I'm currently working on:
(One months traffic)



The world of SEO has change immensely since 2005. If you're interested at all in getting your SEO going, start reading right now, as it takes a long time to break through the "average SEO" container. 

I'd suggest to start out with the more commercial blogs such as:
Moz Blog
SearchEngineLand
SearchEngineJournal

From here, you will start to pickup some new or unfamiliar words / subjects. Google it further, do more research and you will end up on the more informative sites / blogs.

Just a side note: If you don't want to specialize in SEO, you can forget about beating the top ranking sites as people who look after these sites do SEO day in and day out, however, I wouldn't say it's a waste of time for a small business owner to get your site SEO ready and grab some of the low hanging fruit LSI keywords. Either way, the knowledge will only benefit you, whether you're doing it yourself or prospecting an SEO company / consultant.

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## workshop

What has changed is that those that know, really don't want anyone else to know. That is if it has really changed. Doors that were open have closed. It has got more confusing, more difficult to find the beginning of that piece of string. Which is unfortunate because  in most instances, for local searches anyone can still get their sites to rank.



> The world of SEO has change immensely since 2005. If you're interested at all in getting your SEO going, start reading right now, as it takes a long time to break through the "average SEO" container.


It maybe a lot more sophisticated. But I do not think that the basics have changed. The search results still favour the small one man start ups with zero budget. They still favour those that understand one just plods along making mistakes and plugging away at things like service and community building.



> If you don't want to specialize in SEO, you can forget about beating the top ranking sites as people who look after these sites do SEO day in and day out, however, I wouldn't say it's a waste of time for a small business owner to get your site SEO ready and grab some of the low hanging fruit LSI keywords. Either way, the knowledge will only benefit you, whether you're doing it yourself or prospecting an SEO company / consultant.


That is the point, most users don't want to specialise. They just want to understand how to make use of the internet. But instead they get bombarded and bamboozled into believing it can't be done. Not so, it can be done. If you get the basics right. If you are prepared to make the mistakes you need to make, in order to learn what this is all about you can go on to specialise and to read all that has ever been said before.

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## centuriond5evo

Thanks a lot. i very appreciate it

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## jitendra8819

The SEO is always work on your site and it is very help full for traffic.

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## PlatinumWealth.co.za

> The SEO is always work on your site and it is very help full for traffic.


On and off your site. 

Sent from my SM-G920F using Tapatalk

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## antarpuneet_

i Think it really works well

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## jitendra8819

Over the years, search engine optimization, or SEO for short, has gotten a dodgy reputation. A handful of people have engaged in dishonest tactics that have sullied the waters for the rest of us.

SEO has never been and never will be an exact science. That has led to great debates over the best ways to boost a websites traffic. Some wonder whether SEO is even necessary as the Internet continues to evolve and search engines change their ranking factors and algorithms.

In fact, you may even wonder does SEO really work? Or you may be asking is there a way to make my SEO work better?

The answer to both of these questions is yes. In this article we will discuss why SEO works, how it can pay off for any business, and discuss some of the SEO mistakes that you should keep an eye out for on your website.

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## Youneek

It works if you know how to use it. Like everything else, you have to put in the time and effort to learn how to utilize it if you want to get the most out of it.

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## Abhi71

> Hi guys.
> 
> I have a couple of sites which include blogs. I've never really 'bothered' much with SEO. I just write, and usually my pieces are quite long and comprehensive - I like to think I know what I'm talking about. I don't post that often either, maybe once or twice a month. It's a time thing. So my hits are fairly low (although I've never compared them to anyone else's).
> 
> Writing is a bit of a passion for me and I think if I had to research which words everyone else is using and include them it might be a bit of a killer. So, what I want to know is if anyone else has REALLY had a lot of success with targeted SEO or PPC and has seen a dramatic increase in numbers?


SEO is not an exact science. ... SEO only works when you use the current best practices. When you do this, Google and other search engines will increase your website's ranking, leading to an increase in traffic and, in turn, conversions. But when you do SEO incorrectly, it does not work.

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## Tushar bhosale

Yes, But you have do proper on page optimization.

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## Abhi71

Yes, it works really well.
We get ranked because of SEO.

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## AndyD

Alas there isn't an 'article' jitendra was suspended for posting spam links....and the thread seems to be something of a magnet for other spammers. :Detective:

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## Tushar bhosale

Its result is well and effective.
After learning more about SEO it helps me to get my business in ranking. 
Its my personal experience that SEO works really and well.

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## Dave A

> the thread seems to be something of a magnet for other spammers.


Or a honey trap  :Devil2:

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## Gaynor

Nonetheless - this thread is still a very interesting read through.

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## New Perspective studio

Yes how can it not affect your organic traffic if you are sitting on page ten for a query or page 1 ? With more and more websites coming up each day your reliance on good writing will be diluted among the flood. Seo is needed.

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## adriel39

SEO only works when you use the current best practices. When you do this, Google and other search engines will increase your website's ranking, leading to an increase in traffic and, in turn, conversions. But when you do SEO incorrectly, it does not work

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## baldwinjackson

Obviously SEO works well but the main issue which leads people to lose their motivation is that SEO fruits usually comes a little late as compared to paid marketing. I would personally recommend to invest your 60% budget in SEO and 40% in paid marketing. Cheers

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## Kathy50

Its pretty clear, If you know the basic facts of Online marketing, 
SEO is one of the implementation process of inbound web marketing., its a process that makes a bunch of potential customer to land on your platform with pushing any product or service. 
It is about attracting customers with relevant and helpful content and delivering added value at every stage of their buying process.
Before explore on it let me emphasis on a common fact that did you ever been explore on the 2nd page of search engine result page? 99% will say no and the 1% who did for web research purpose if they might have.
when in offline market customer looks for a shop or brand to buy or purchase his or her desire products. But when it comes online, consumers do look for product not for shop. so, if they find you by searching their desired product or service, there is 70% assurance of convert them into sales.
So, by optimizing on SERP you will be visible to users and make them to land on your website .
Or A bunch of good content wont be worth if you do not optimize your website to be found on search.

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## New Perspective studio

> Its pretty clear, If you know the basic facts of Online marketing, 
> SEO is one of the implementation process of inbound web marketing., it’s a process that makes a bunch of potential customer to land on your platform with pushing any product or service. 
> It is about attracting customers with relevant and helpful content and delivering added value at every stage of their buying process.
> Before explore on it let me emphasis on a common fact that did you ever been explore on the 2nd page of search engine result page? 99% will say no and the 1% who did for web research purpose if they might have.
> when in offline market customer looks for a shop or brand to buy or purchase his or her desire products. But when it comes online, consumers do look for product not for shop. so, if they find you by searching their desired product or service, there is 70% assurance of convert them into sales.
> So, by optimizing on SERP you will be visible to users and make them to land on your website .
> Or A bunch of good content won’t be worth if you do not optimize your website to be found on search.


I agree with the fact that there is a very high conversion rate for first page users on the serps. With only 5% of the millions of websites o the web ever making the first page and most of them not for long as   *due to competition* , due to *black hatters that will have month or two ontop because until they get penalised* and then start it all over again with another site, due to *paid advertising.* 

It would be very foolish to place all you emphasis on google unless you are* very localised in your targeting and it pays of or its a niche that knows nothing about seo*. In standard settings though , the returns for a long seo campaigns on websites are almost never worth what you spend ( Im referring to time and money here ). Like i said you will be fighting with other companies throwing time and money into it, you will lose a few months to black hatters until they get found out and you will take the backseat to paid advertising ( remember only 5 % get to face these challenge ) those are some heavy odds. 

Most small to medium and i would say even some larger business focus their marking on other avenues and do great. Usually they will just run seo to get to get a better ad-word campaign result. 

There is a very high conversion rate anywhere if you are marketing in the right place. 

Im not saying dont go for it, by all mean do, i do , i just know that its not smart to place all your eggs in once basket.* Especially one as volatile and vast as google.*

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## saba

Yes, it very helpful to boost business growth. 
You can get more audience and traffic by using the optimized keyword in optimized way

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