# Archive > Open content archive > MLM Industry Forum > [Question] Amway/Network 21

## Zaxisus

I have recently become involved with the Amway/Network 21 MLM concept.  I am normally a very sceptical person, so I only joined after thorough investigation from my side.  I'm in the IT industry and I have a systems-oriented mindset, so I can look at anything logically and unemotionally.  And to me this seems like a concept that has no possibility of failure - but I agree that MLM is not for everyone and not everyone will see it in the same light as me.

But now I'm getting funny remarks from people when they find out that I'm involved with Amway.  Seems they all know somebody who lost huge amounts of money with this concept.  To me that just sounds absurd.  So - I'd like to hear from people out there who are / were PERSONALLY involved with Amway/Network 21.  Be it good or bad.  I do not want to hear about someone's cousin's neighbour 3 houses down who lost a few grand because he bought a bakkie-load of washing powder that he couldn't sell.

 :Confused:

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## murdock

i have been to numerous meetings with variuos different people all trying to get me to buy into the "idea" over the past 10 years...had the amway invitation...then the netework 21 invitation trying to make it sound like a different company.

i have been following a person for 2 years now and have decided not to waste my time any longer and will not waste my time going to anymore meetings...as i promised i would follow him over a 2 year period went to meetings and listened and watched carefully...i can think of nothing better than a passive income.

as you mentioned it is not for everyone...the problem is as soon as you mention the words ammway or network 21 automatically there is a negative reaction...how can you boost your income if you are trying to promote a product, idea or network system which has such a negative response when you metion it...you would need to be really dynamic sales person to achieve a 6 digit figue in your bank account from amway or network 21...i wish you luck in your adventure just dont give up your day job yet.

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## Zaxisus

Hi,

Thanks for your input.  Luckily I am still in my 90-day "get-out-of-jail-free" period.  So, I'll stick it out for a bit longer and see if anything comes from it  :Smile:

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## Dave A

There is a 90 day "get-out-of-jail-free" period?

I'm confused - could you explain that to me please?

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## Norri

The business model works (for distributors).  Problem is with all the scaley distributors that are desparate to recruit just about ANYONE.  I find that targeted recruiting works way better.  And distributors with serious business knowledge do a lot better and "climb" the ladder faster.

It's _not_ a get-rich-quick thing.  You have to work _blerry_ hard and you have to do it properly.

I've been involved with Amway and Herbalife before and I _still_ use the Herbalife products because they're so good and I've never felt better but I'm not active in the business as I don't believe you can be successful with MLM while running other businesses as well.

Hope this helps a bit  :Smile:

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Keen Observer (28-Jan-11)

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## Zaxisus

> There is a 90 day "get-out-of-jail-free" period?
> 
> I'm confused - could you explain that to me please?


You probably know about Amway's 90-day (3 month) guarantee on their products?  Well, signing up basically works the same way.  You can sign up, and after 3 months, if you don't like the concept - or even if you just don't like the face of one of your team members - you can get out.  And they refund you the sign-up fee.  My up-line always tell people that the only way to really make an informed decision is to investigate from the inside.  To ignore what other people say and make up your own mind.

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## Zaxisus

Thank you.  And I agree with you - I've spoken to people who've made a success in this business, and to my surprise most of them were professionals high up on the corporate ladder.  That spun my head a bit...

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## Dave A

> You probably know about Amway's 90-day (3 month) guarantee on their products?  Well, signing up basically works the same way.  You can sign up, and after 3 months, if you don't like the concept - or even if you just don't like the face of one of your team members - you can get out.  And they refund you the sign-up fee.


Hmm. "Back in the day" you'd just get the refund on the products... If you even wanted that refund. People didn't bale on the products.

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## murdock

> Thank you.  And I agree with you - I've spoken to people who've made a success in this business, and to my surprise most of them were professionals high up on the corporate ladder.  That spun my head a bit...


hence the saying birds of a feather flock together...if you want to be successful in bussiness you need to hang with the right people...you will never be successful if you hang around with negative lazy people...so what you doing on this site :Big Grin:

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## Norri

Yup...

Which is why being a solo entrepreneur actually makes it harder on yourself without a forum like this.  I would've gone dilly or bankrupt or both by now if it weren't for online business communities.  It's so nice to be able to ask someone who's been in a similar position for some advice or, even just to know that someone else is experiencing the same thing as you and it's _not_ the end of the world.

I read a study once that revealed that an entrepreneur's single best source of help, advice and support is from fellow entrepreneurs.  NOT family, NOT clients, NOT money-lenders, but fellow people just as much in the kak.

Those of us with very supportive families should recognise our blessing.  Most entrepreneurs are met with, "You won't make it", kind of crap and so they fall on their faces.  VERY much the case with MLM, by the way.

That's the problem with doing something where not many have succeeded before.  Your chances for success are good because competition isn't great but neither is support :P

Probably the biggest secret to surviving in the MLM industry (and any business at all for that matter) is persistence.  Especially in hard times like these.  When everyone else is taking a fall and you hold on with everything you've got, despite every obstacle being thrown at you, you come out stronger than anyone else and simply can not be competed against  :Smile:

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Dave A (20-Aug-08), Keen Observer (28-Jan-11)

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## Dave A

The thing I _really_ liked about Network 21 was it proved to be a very cost effective system for learning about marketing, self-development and leadership. My time in the Network 21 system simply took my understanding of these to a totally different level.

In the end, I might not have made that much money "doing Amway," but a heck of a lot of my income nowadays comes from the lessons learnt there.

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## murdock

the more you network the better your companies chances are of being a success...if you are a peoples person...zuma is a good example...even though he is being charged with so many crimminal activities...the people love him (or he is paying lots of money)...on the other hand you could also be a failure if people dont like you no matter how good your product or service is.

one of my biggest problems is i say what i am thinking and not always what people want to hear...i dont think carefully before i write and make sure it will be to everyones approval.

thats the problem with these forums...you can portray an image for people.

i also hear stories about friendships how easy they are to make and difficult to keep...the problem is that peoples true colours evetually shine through...and they are not always pleasant.

money buys happiness but only for as long as you have it...when its all gone so are the friends you bought with it...luckily i have never had lots money  :Big Grin: 

 :Offtopic:  ooops speaking my mind again.

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## Lize

[COLOR="Navy"]**




> I have recently become involved with the Amway/Network 21 MLM concept.  I am normally a very sceptical person, so I only joined after thorough investigation from my side.  I'm in the IT industry and I have a systems-oriented mindset, so I can look at anything logically and unemotionally.  And to me this seems like a concept that has no possibility of failure - but I agree that MLM is not for everyone and not everyone will see it in the same light as me.
> 
> But now I'm getting funny remarks from people when they find out that I'm involved with Amway.  Seems they all know somebody who lost huge amounts of money with this concept.  To me that just sounds absurd.  So - I'd like to hear from people out there who are / were PERSONALLY involved with Amway/Network 21.  Be it good or bad.  I do not want to hear about someone's cousin's neighbour 3 houses down who lost a few grand because he bought a bakkie-load of washing powder that he couldn't sell.

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## Lize

I Agree with the Personal Development and Leadership...!!

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## kitty

hi willemiendp.....just wondering if you stuck it out with Amway in the end? if so, how are things going with it?

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## Marq

A good question.

This thread has been around for nearly a year and had over four thousand viewers but few comments.

Is there anybody out there that can tell us they have stuck it out, followed the model and understood how this all hangs together and actually made their fortune?

This industry seems to be keeped alive by two ends of the scale.....those at the start drumming up support based on very little evidence of success and those desparate souls looking for a fast buck and a way to survive. 

I have watched many 'friends' involve themselves in mlm over the years and a few even became evangelical shiny folk promoting business opportunities in hotel rooms, but I have never actually met anyone who has made their millions or even lives comfortably from this business model.

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## Kevm

Hi,

I have been involved in the Network 21 Amway system for almost 2 years. I joined when I first saw it as it truley is a no brainer. Buy products you already buy but get money back as team grows. Refer some people and make more. Not to mention few people I have met have said bad things about the products. They are good. Its more the system and some people that have influenced people been against it. I never really took it more seriously until recently. In the past few months I have grown the business to the breakeven point. Where all the products and education is pretty much paid for by the income. 
To answere your question Marq, the couple that are mentoring me have made a respectable income from it and are a few months away from much higher levels in the business. 
The system does work, it requires work. That is no secret. The true challenge is the mind shift from been an employee to building passive income. That is truly the hardest part of this business system. That is why the education system is key. And as DaveA said the leadership and self development from the Network 21 system is so good. Creating passive income is never easy and never quick, well not truly sustainable passive income. People get in, dont see any progress within first few months then believe it does not work. 
MLM is a fantastic business model, it allows ordinary people access to an opportunity they would never have previously had access to. 
I beleive that more and more businesses will start introducing there products to current MLM models. Its a simple way for companies to maintain sales yet cut down on advertising. I have noticed this lately with the Amway system, many other companies are starting to get on the band wagon. 
There are many MLM structures that work and many other ways to make money. So I am in no way saying that Amway is the only and best. For me it works and make sense thats why I do it.

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Riana (08-Jul-11)

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## Marq

Thank for that outline - it certainly is one of the more honest answers I have seen in a long time regarding the mlm industry. Well done.

If I recall Amway has an American catalog the size of three Johannesburg phone books, so yes I can see lots more stuff being brought on board. At a shiny Amway presentation about 10 years ago, I think the local product list consisted of a toothpaste and washing powder. Certainly products were not big on the list of things to sell in those days and the whole read between the lines presentation related to nothing more than a pyramid scheme. I believe that is where Amway earned the nickname Scamway. 

The products also seem to have had a lot of criticism - apparently they are the same as the stuff you buy down the road and yes they cost more because they are concentrated but on a value for money basis they are the same. If the scheme has progressed and is selling good stuff on sound marketing principles then there is no reason why it should not be a success.

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## kitty

Thanks KEVM
I also joined about 4 months ago and i dont regret it one bit. Yes, there is hard work, but that just proves it's not some get rich quick scheme. My brother in law joined after me and he researched everything throughly 'cos he never jumps into things and he is excited about it.

The one thing I really like is that I can take a break whenever I want and it doesn't affect my business at all. 2 of the 4 months, my husband and I were to busy with church and we never bothered about the business and then afterwards, we could just pick up where we left off. What other business will give you that opportunity. 

I can clearly see the system working and the speed of your success is mostly based on how much effort you put in. Before the next course at church now, we are putting in loads of effort.......and we will reap the rewards...   :Smile:

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## Rob Hepple

> The thing I _really_ liked about Network 21 was it proved to be a very cost effective system for learning about marketing, self-development and leadership. My time in the Network 21 system simply took my understanding of these to a totally different level.
> 
> In the end, I might not have made that much money "doing Amway," but a heck of a lot of my income nowadays comes from the lessons learnt there.


Howzit Dave A. It sounds like you were involved way back. Things have changed quite dramatically so you might like to investgate the business again.

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## Rob Hepple

> Thank for that outline - it certainly is one of the more honest answers I have seen in a long time regarding the mlm industry. Well done.
> 
> If I recall Amway has an American catalog the size of three Johannesburg phone books, so yes I can see lots more stuff being brought on board. At a shiny Amway presentation about 10 years ago, I think the local product list consisted of a toothpaste and washing powder. Certainly products were not big on the list of things to sell in those days and the whole read between the lines presentation related to nothing more than a pyramid scheme. I believe that is where Amway earned the nickname Scamway. 
> 
> The products also seem to have had a lot of criticism - apparently they are the same as the stuff you buy down the road and yes they cost more because they are concentrated but on a value for money basis they are the same. If the scheme has progressed and is selling good stuff on sound marketing principles then there is no reason why it should not be a success.


Howzit Marq. You might want to attend a N21 meeting just to check things out. Those who are successful in our business will not come knocking on your door. You WILL be blown away at the amount of success that is currently happening.

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## Dave A

> Howzit Dave A. It sounds like you were involved way back. Things have changed quite dramatically so you might like to investgate the business again.


I'm not surprised things have changed dramatically, but my reasons for dropping it have not  :Wink:

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## Rob Hepple

> I'm not surprised things have changed dramatically, but my reasons for dropping it have not


If you liked the products (and are so many more now) you might like to know there is also a passive side to the business (no work required) and you will still have an asset that will continue to grow.

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## Kevm

Hi Rob,

By passive side, do you mean the fact that all you do is get a spot in the team and as the team grows so does the rebate on your anyway spend?
Other than that I am not aware of a passive way with no work required.

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## Dave A

I'm with Kev. You may as well expand on that thought you've got there, Rob.

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## Rob Hepple

> I'm with Kev. You may as well expand on that thought you've got there, Rob.


You're absolutely right. If you really understand how the consumer pipeline works your discount will work it's way from 3% eventually ending up at 21% with no effort on your part. In anybody's books a 21% discount on your monthly purchases is a significant amount when you take into account it also includes your short term insurance, cellphones etc. What most people do not realise is that it is now a permanent fixture and a foundation for an incredible business because, if by some chance that consumer is at the full 21% discount, he or she could, if they wanted to, start a 2nd pipeline and that 2nd pipeline would start at the full 21%. What an incredible foundation!

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## murdock

i am considering going to meetings again to network so that i can expand my already well established operations which have nothing to do with amway or N21 but as dave mentioned use it to improve my selling skills and just network to grow my other companies...like going to church on sunday or playing golf.

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## IanF

Guys 
I got approached to join by means that where not transparent. See this thread http://www.theforumsa.co.za/forums/s...ead.php?t=5397 Anyway I have some questions. 
Where can I see a list of products and prices that amway offer?What cellphone contracts are covered with Vodacom. Are the top up packages included?Is Glenrand insurance comparable to Outsurance?Is there a websiite or brochures where this information is available?Why is there a R240 per month continuing education fee, I would think it would be better to say the first R240 of commission used for this?Why are the promtotors very cagey about naming the scheme when you meet them?
Kevm and others could you elaborate what happens at the Business Building Seminar and Weekend Conference.
 :Confused:

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## Rob Hepple

Hi IanF. A couple of answers. When you were approached you would seem to have already had a negative conception of what Amway and N21 are all about which is something that all of us as distributors have to face so we invite people to a preview of the business where the true picture of our business is presented and, whoever the new person is that was invited can make a decision based on facts and they are able to ask as many questions they want to.
           All of the deals you can get from Vodacom Direct are applicable to our business.
Glenrand MIB's policy is comprable to any other "deal direct" company in SA. My premium, when I changed over from my previous insurer saved me more than R200 P/M. The Continuing Education Program is not a fee. It is completely optional, but it makes sense to do it. Our business is like any other business, you need some education. The lady you spoke to, Miranda Henderson, is the best person you could ever speak to about our business. My suggestion is that you arrange to meet with her again and she will give you a true perspective of the business. Not only are her and her husband, Sean, the most successful couple in SA they are also respected around the world for their integrity and leadership in the business and the world of show-jumping. They are also Springbok show-jumpers.

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## Marq

Deja Vu....It seems like nothing has changed since I first looked into these schemes decades ago. Ians post and his most recent experience confirms that.

This mlm, big 'business opportunity' stuff *is still sold* by smiley shiny people in clandestine operations slinking around hotel rooms and lounges, treating information about the industry as if it were the biggest secret in the world. The products are ignored, question are not answered to the visitors satisafaction, this 'education' and training issue is left hanging in the air not really explained, and the 'sale' is made based on a fear principal that if they do not sign up now they are really going to lose out. People around are referred to as gurus, leaders, full of integrity, honest and hard working..bla bla - I've got a black belt in Kung fu but that doesn't mean I am a good business person.

I still only see a group of people, who ra ra about it, talk about uplines, downlines, pipeline and all sorts of jargon that means very little unless one is in a pyramid scheme scenario feasting off the previous victims hard work and aspirations. I also see very few long term people that have stayed the distance and actually proved my thoughts about mlm wrong.

Sorry guys, but until someone can put out a simple short and sweet, non jargoned, non percentaged, non BS business plan explaining how Amway or Net 21 or any scheme works that make sense to simple folk like me and is not a pyramid scheme.....I will be on the skeptical side doing normal business stuff over here.

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## IanF

> Hi IanF. A couple of answers. When you were approached you would seem to have already had a negative conception of what Amway and N21 are all about which is something that all of us as distributors have to face so we invite people to a preview of the business where the true picture of our business is presented and, whoever the new person is that was invited can make a decision based on facts and they are able to ask as many questions they want to.


Rob
Thanks for taking the time to reply, with this approach N21 are just reinforcing the perception I have. The only branded item they had was a cd. I did try to keep an open mind, who wouldn't want a passive income. Just I prefer a straight approach. I would not feel comfortable joining and having to "deceive" people to get them to the seminar, I can't work like that.

Do you know where I can get the rest of the info?

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## Rob Hepple

Hi Ian. Unfortunately, I do not know how you were approached. We are taught, using the N21 system, how to make a professional approach and invitation. We do not try to deceive anyone and make any false claims. It is purely an invitation to a business presentation. If anyone asks us at the invitation if it is Amway or N21 we tell them that it is. Until any person has seen the full business presentation they cannot say they know this business or understand this business. I am extremely proud to be associated with the Amway Corporation and N21 Global.  I have yet to come accross companies or organisations of any sort that have the integrity and integrity of leadership that both of these companies have. That you will only find out if you are prepared to your due diligence and not listen to heresay and other peoples opinions.
           Please take what I'm about to say in the spirit in which it is meant. If you had never heard of the Amway Corporation or N21 before, would you still have felt you were being deceived? I truly think not. It was merely your preconceived idea of, possibly, other peoples ill conceived ideas or perceptions that you had heard.
           The only way you will get the true picture of any business in any industry is to speak to people who are successful and know what they are talking about. Ours is no different. People who quit or fail will almost always have all their reasons lined up as to why their businesses failed instead of looking inward. The only people who fail in our business are the people who quit.
           So, before anyone passes judgement on our methods, please feel free to do your investigations from the inside out and you will find a business that is extraordinary.

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## Kevm

Hi IanF,

I am not directly linked to Shaun and Miranda Henderson. I do know of there success outside of this business. I know allot more about their success in this business. I have learned allot from them, as far as teachers in this system they are among the best in the country. All I can suggest is if you have the chance to have them mentor and teach you, take the 3 month trial. If not for you then leave. Rather be in it and it fails, than not and it works.

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## Kevm

Hi Marq,

I have read many of your posts. I would never dare question your intelect. You seem to know allot about a few interesting topics.
I could not resist you question for a no BS explanation ( maybe a test for me?)
Firstly, this big business opportunity run by shiny smiley people. Yeah why not. To do something different than the norm, you need to be different and think different. Why smiley people, well fisrtly we rely on ourselves. For all the benefits of that, it makes it harder. Especially when no one else or few others believe you can truly do it. People are all constantly faced with negativity, we are bombarded with it from media, peers and so many other forms. So if we want to tell ourselves to be happy, and smiley and do this thing. Just take the chance because if it works the benefits are what peopel work their whole lives for.
I have the greatest respect for people that strive to be different, too many people mope about in life. We are trying to be better than that, and we offer others the same opportunity. 
Now for your non BS explanation.
I love the eduation system Network 21. I have learned more than I ever would have by just trundling through life. And for    R 400 a month. Its a small cost once you realise what you will learn. It has not only helped me be better in my career but also better in relationships, romantic and not.
I am not an Amway Junky! To be honest, who really cares what soap they use and what coffee they drink, what washing powder washes their clothes. All we really want is a product that works. Many times people will go for the cheapest anyway as long as it just does its job.
All I care about is what pays me, instead of your major retailers pocketing all that markup on products. I want some! This system allows me access to that. And all I need to do is tell some people about it. Like watching a movie and refering your mates to watch it. Then you can actually make some more money.
Why the business will continue, no matter what happens in an economy people will still wash their clothes and bodies. And even brush their teeth.

I am in my 20's. I focus and do this even for 10 years. Build up a R 40 000 a month income. Which is not too big in this business but still good by normal standards. I will be in my 30's. I would have set up a retirement income that only about 4% of people ever achieve after 40 years of normal working.
If it works ( which it will and does ) I would have set that up. If not I would have accelerated myself up the corporate ladder from what I have learned about business and relationships.
So as I said to IanF, I would rather be in this and it doesnt work. Than not be in and kick myself not for trying.
Your a smart individual so no doubt you know the true definition of a pyramid scheme. If you believe that Amway resembles a pyramid scheme? Look at some of the largest direct sales businesses. Check their structure out. They are alot more like a pyramid. I would know I have worked for 2 of the major ones in SA and globally. 
Not everyone can build a normal business. This, anyone can do.
As for the sign up now or lose out. To be honest you wont lose out. The business will grow, with or without them. There are lots of people out there, many of which will see the benefit in this. Its just a  question of if they want to be a part of it or not. But essentially no matter what your background or knowledge, or money. Everyone starts at the same place.  

So you can continue been skeptical, you will either see the benefit or not.
I hope that I kept as much BS out as possible.

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Dave A (16-Jul-09), IanF (17-Jul-09)

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## IanF

Kevm and Rob
Thanks for the replies it looks like the only way to evaluate this is to go into it. So try it on blind faith and then cancel if you don't like it. I will continue with my research to see if there are facts available. I probably overthink this! :Slap:

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## Domestos

Hi to all

Here are my experiences with Amway and Network 21.

Firstly let me start off by saying that most of the Amway products are far superior to any commercial product you may find on the shelves of any retailer.  I'm specifically referring to their "core" products, the SA8 (Washing powder range), the LOC (Home cleaning range) and the Nutrilite multivitamins.  These are awesome.

Secondly I'm in a direct line of sponsorship of one of the best people in the business, with one of the biggest businesses in SA.  The reason I mention this is that i "know" this "pipeline", "leg" or whatever you want to call it will not "die".

There are two ways you can do this business.  Active or Passive.  As discussed in one of the earlier posts when you are passive, your business grows below you, and you reap the reward of higher rebates on your "anyway" spend.  Again, this is a no brainer...  Or is it???  During my initial introduction to this, I was let to believe that "anyway" spend which includes cell phone and insurance in my case = R1000, depending on the size of my business, i should get back up to 21%???  The perception that was created, that on my R1000 "Anyway" spend, I will get back initially 3% (R30), then 6% (R60) then 9% (R90) and so forth, till you get to the maximum of 21% = R210.

This is unfortunately the furthest from the truth you could possibly get.  I'm not going into the details, but there was a fair amount of hidden truths not told, and this really ticked me off.  

For two years, I was actively busy with this business, doing all the "right" things, and introducing plenty of new people to the business.  My upline / sponsors was real supportive.  I really felt part of a "Family".  That is until the day I decided to be less active, and more passive.  Everything changed.

It is now more than a year later, and to date I have not received 1 call from any of the "Leaders" in my upline (One of who is a Diamond, one who is Platinum, and one who is Super Silver - Pardon the jargon)  since I made that decision.  The so called "business will grow with or without you" might happen, but not in my case, as my business is stagnant at between 9% and 12%.  It has been like that for the last 3 years.  

The line that you can reach the 21% within 6 months is also a lot of BS, as I know of only 1 couple who got close to that time-frame, and they did it in 9 months.  The rumor is also that they did more damage than good, as the majority of the people who dealt with them, does not want to do anything more with them...

This brings me to my next comment.  Amway DOES work, however the people "driving" Amway are the problem.  They are the ones who give Amway a bad name.  And I can testify to that.

As a final note on Amway, I still use the product, but doubt if I will ever be actively involved again.

Network 21 is the other aspect of this business, and once again, you are "told" that you need this in order to be successful in Amway.  To me this was real close to brain washing you.  Most of the CD's say the same thing over and over, just the "packaging" is different.  I was never allowed to say anything negative, and lets face it, life is not all sunshine and roses.  If you were not a team player, you got shut out.  At least, in my team that is what happened.

This brings me to the financial aspect of this business.  Attending all the weekly, monthly and quarterly seminars, and buying all the added material costs a crap-load of money.  Unfortunately my business never got to the stage where I broke even, and that was one of the reasons I decided to go passive.

This is just some of my experiences, and not all were bad.  I have some very nice memories.

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## MikeC

Hi Willemien. Stick it out it's worth it.  Try and get in touch with someone upline that can guide you.  Also the CEP and functions are vital.  Without these it is very difficult to succeed in this type of industry.  Use the products so that you can be familiar with them.  Be core!
Hope this helps.

Mike

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## MikeC

> Kevm and Rob
> Thanks for the replies it looks like the only way to evaluate this is to go into it. So try it on blind faith and then cancel if you don't like it. I will continue with my research to see if there are facts available. I probably overthink this!


Hi IanF.  I have been in this business for 7 months now.  I havn't done what is stipulated to bring the sucess in the times that are spoken about.  I am somewhat of a slow starter.  I have found that even after 7 months I am learning new things every week.  This business is the opposit eto conventional business in that when you start a new job/business you are very excited untill reality hits.  In this business I was not too excited about starting but I am finding the business more exciting and intriguing the longer I am involved.

Regards

Mike

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## Rob Hepple

> Hi Willemien. Stick it out it's worth it.  Try and get in touch with someone upline that can guide you.  Also the CEP and functions are vital.  Without these it is very difficult to succeed in this type of industry.  Use the products so that you can be familiar with them.  Be core!
> Hope this helps.


Well said Mike! I've said this before and I'll say it again. The only people who fail are those who quit. Don't quit. I'm sure if you look upline you'll find someone who will be prepared to work with and help you. Communication is a 2-way street. Reopen those lines. Hang in there Willemien.

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## bluemelon

Hi Demestos...

going back to what you said 

_"It is now more than a year later, and to date I have not received 1 call from any of the "Leaders" in my upline (One of who is a Diamond, one who is Platinum, and one who is Super Silver - Pardon the jargon)  since I made that decision.  The so called "business will grow with or without you" might happen, but not in my case, as my business is stagnant at between 9% and 12%.  It has been like that for the last 3 years. "_

It is sad for me to hear that nobody in your upline has been in contact with you.

I believe that in this business you need to be a succcessful mentor to your business teams. The way I grow my business is by taking someone who joins my business and start with their goal setting.

I sit down with my new memeber and we structure a realistic goal. What I mean by this is we take the entire goal and we break it down into smaller bits. Always take small steps. And this is my focus. I go out their and work and help my members below me. Yes there is a line drawn as the members must pull their weight and if they don't I let them know. 

But it's not just about showing people results and just putting people in their teams, no it's about following up with everyone (everyone = the people you personally put into the business as obviously you don't get to meet everyone as your members will put people in the team that you may never meet) showing interest in them, motivating them when times are tough.

I think thats the big difference. I don't worry about results as I know they will come later. I focus on doing this right, building my foundation of my business CORRECTLY, so that whenever I choose to leave or take a break I don't have to worry as my business will be in great hands. If people believe in you then your business will grow.

You sound like you have grown yourself a really great business but sad to here that you have lost interest due to your circumstances. 

I hope one day you get the urge to get back on the horse  :Smile: 

All the best.

----------


## Dracorp

Wow... just spend over an hour of my life reading every single post on here about Amway/N21 and I am horrified... and bored... If you have everything you have ever dreamt about then shut up... the rest of us are willing to do whatever it takes to make our dreams come true because we want to.

I have known about Amway for the last 20 years.....but only signed up a week ago.... Do you know why?  Because I was asked at the right time... I wasn't bullied, lied to ... I was invited.  As an adult I hope that most people have their heads screwed on the right way, because nobody can convince you to do or join anything you don't really want to... Seriously we teach our kids this at the age of 2!  I am not afraid to work hard to achieve my goals and I honestly care about our planet.  The "business" is a bonus.... 

No other business in SA and only a few in the world produces products that are CERTIFIED organic, which means NOTHING in the planting, growth, harvesting, production and packaging of these items harms the environment.  So besides getting superior quality products, I also know that these products have not harmed the environment....for that peace of mind I have no problem paying extra.

And if you need to research this more... pop in at the Amway Business Centre in the Longmeadow Business Park and you will see a community working together in 5 star surroundings.

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Riana (08-Jul-11)

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## Lew

Good day,

I went to a presentation last night, and I really don't know what to think....?? At first, I was excited, and I still am, but why are there so much negativity surrounding this whole concept? I take into account the positive comments and experiences too, but it seems that the bad experiences are really bad?! And at no point did anyone mention the possiblility of losing money. How can one loose money through this whole process? I was made to believe that you pay minimum +-R1400, get some stuff worth +-R1000, and at worst, you loose R400. But that seems not to be the case? I'm really confused and not sure if I should take this on?

Please advise if you guys don't mind?

Thanks!

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## Marq

:Rofl: 
You just learnt the first lesson - who is R400 short?
Second lesson you will find the answer in this thread - its that the only guys telling you how fantastic this all is...is another amway guy trying to recruit you.
Third lesson is that the products (and its not really about the products) are only fantastic in the amway world -certified/concentrated/so much better/so much more expensive but really great - why does the rest of the world not see these products out there in the general retail market?
Fourth lesson - there does not appear too many winners either in this world - the losers....well they just will not admit that they are.

I still battle to find any value in this system - my advice would be that if you are not sure then don't.

Check out the writings...  here and here  and here  and here and...and .....and......

Good luck with your own thoughts.

----------


## Rob Hepple

> Good day,
> 
> I went to a presentation last night, and I really don't know what to think....?? At first, I was excited, and I still am, but why are there so much negativity surrounding this whole concept? I take into account the positive comments and experiences too, but it seems that the bad experiences are really bad?! And at no point did anyone mention the possiblility of losing money. How can one loose money through this whole process? I was made to believe that you pay minimum +-R1400, get some stuff worth +-R1000, and at worst, you loose R400. But that seems not to be the case? I'm really confused and not sure if I should take this on?
> 
> Please advise if you guys don't mind?
> 
> Thanks!


Hi Lew.
         Whoever introduced you to the business, stick close to him/her and follow the business system. There are negative people out there and you'll find that they are people who have either failed to build the business and dropped out or they have formed an opinion based on some other uninformed opinion. There have also been some bad people who also got involved in the Amway business and caused some problems and they were removed from the business. Amway does not screen anybody coming into the business, giving everyone a chance to improve their lives. So, if you want to assess this business properly, do it from the inside. You cannot lose any money because the 90 day 100% money back guarantee on the products also applies to the business. In any business decision you have to base it on facts, not uninformed opinions. On the 6,7 & 8th of November we are having a Weekend Seminar at Gallagher Estates that is going to be attended by thousands of people. This seminar happens every 4 months. At this one 3 new "Diamonds"(there are already 5 diamonds) are going to be recognised for their achievements, plus new Emeralds plus Golds and Silvers and scads of lower achievements. That is where you can do all the research necessary to see the true picture. Always remember that the people who give bad advice will never step forward help you to provide for your family or lifestyle.

----------


## Kevm

Hi Lew,

No one can give you the right advice. If you want to try it. Then try it. If not then dont.
Its that simple. I could go over all the reasons why you should. I could even give you some reasons why you shouldnt. 
If you understand the plan. If you get the idea and the simple principle.
What is the worst that could happen?

What if this simple business of toothpaste and washing powder actually works?

Just make the best choice for you. Whatever that is.

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## MikeC

I agree with Rob Hepple, stay away from negative people because they are not going to help you support your family in bad times.  Secondly I have been in business for myself for the last 20 years.  This year during the recession I have lost approximately R 200k because of a so called "adjustment in the economy" and I know that I got off really light.  My best advice is to educate yourself by reading and finding out where the industry is going.  There are some great books like Pro Sumer power that will give you some insight.  the most important thing however is to be secure in where you are heading.  If you have a strong enough reason to get involved in this business then write it down.  Depending on your life experience you may have a steep learning curve ahead of you and you need to know *why* you are doing what you are doing and that will get you through the doubt and the tough times in this business.

----------


## MikeC

Hi I agree with Rob, stay away from negative people.  Nothing good can come from negativity.  My advice is take some time out figure out where you are going.  Figure out what you want and what you are willing to do.  Most people will experience a very steep learning curve in this business.  Are you teachable?  Look back over the last 5 years of your life and answer this question honestly - What have I acheived?  The definition of insanity is doing the same thing and expecting different results.  Change is painful and most people will avoid the pain and never acheive what they want to in life.

----------


## earnnow

I have been reading with keen interest, this thread and it makes me realise that mlm story is the same everywhere. There will always be sweet and bitter stories surrounding it. Most of the time you find yourself in the business and by the time you look back, no one is behind to push you forward. 
All you get is the normal rules: be proactive, talk to at least 4 people everyday, attend business opportunity meetings in order to refuel your adrenalin to work, prospect your friends and families who are not ready to listen to you.

My friend, mlm business is beautiful and very rewarding but, the rules most of the time are outdated and do not work. You have to be ready to reinvent the wheel (this is against mlm rule however) but that is the only way. If you keep doing the business the way everyone is doing it, then you will get the result they are getting.

 I believe this resource will do you a lot of good if you can lay your hands on it http://lifeincome.the7greatliesofnetworkmarketing.com/. It's a free resource that will keep you in track in your mlm business.

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## Dave A

Those 7 lies are popping up all over.

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## earnnow

I guess it's time mlm business people begin to use their initiative to do this business. It is not always as easy as they say it is. Talks like, just get between 2 to 5 down lines and the system goes on autopilot to make you rich. 

We must know that, people run the system, the system does not run itself. You must be a creative marketer and do not stretch your expectation beyond limit so you will not be disappointed. I guess the 7 great lies do make sense afterall.

----------


## Sebzon

I have read through the thread trying to get some more information and answers about this "business" system.

I was also invited into the presentation yesterday. The proble m is that the person who invited me did not tell me he was inviting to the N21 presentation, but he just said a business meeting. The first thing is that he said we are going to me around the venue but when I arrived he sent me an SMS that he is inside the venue.

This made me not to trust the guy at all. Then secondly I wanted to get more about the structure on how the system works. He happened not to understand, thus he got upset by my questions of which some of them has been asked in this forum but not answered. He gave me the CD's with peoples success stories not about how the systems works up to the bit. I am not convinced by this system and I dont think I am going to be in the near future!

----------


## Dave A

Sebzon, what are your questions that you'd like answers for?

----------


## Sebzon

Thanks Dave,

1. I would like to know the structure of the scheme if it is a tree or it a just a chain (in the presentation they represent it as a chain). If I join from a certain person there are some other people who join to him, are those people going to be under me or contribute to my income or this is entirely up to the person I join under in how he structures the company

2. When I have reached the so-called 21% stage (R15000 month) what more will I get? Or is this the last stage of the income?

3. When I have reached the 21%, and then it happens that down the chain sales drop or people are not active. Will that affect my income?

4. How many people I have to recruit to reach 21%?

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## Kevm

Hi Sebzon,

I think that possible the reason the person did not answere your questions may be for a few reasons.
1 He is new and the process he followed with you is exactly how he was introduced. Its all about duplication.
2 Sometimes people get confused about the system and dont notice the power that this sytem actually has.
3 What seperates the poeple that are successful and not in this business is a dream. Some poeple will struggle and drop off. However if your dream/goal for your life is big enough. Nothing will stop you. That is probably why he gave you success stories and not system/method/trainging/knowledge/product cd's.

To answere your questions.
 1. The system is a pipeline structure ( chain as you referred to). So basically you join and use products. Other people can be reffered into your downline that you do not know. So when you only have the 1 pipeline you will only receive a % back on your spend. To make more money you must refer people and start a 2nd and 3rd team. Then you start earning differentials. Example. Your entire business, leg 1, 2, and 3. Combined PV is 10,000 = 21%. Leg 1 is 7000 PV = 15% you are at 21%. So 21-15=6. Therefore you get 6% *(7000*12.5) ( this is the 7000 points back to rand roughyl). 6%* 87500=R 5,250. So leg one you get R 5,250.
This process is repeated for all 3 legs that you have.
Once you have one leg at 10,000PV=21% and you have volume in your 2nd/3rd leg you then get then you are at 21% and so is the first leg. 21-21 =0. Then you get 4% on the total expense on that leg forever. as long as it maintains 21%.

2. There is no last stage of income in the business. A 21% business with 10,000 PV in 5 years may be 25,000 PV. You then still get the 4% "royalty" on all of it.


3. No sales drop when you get to 21%. As long as your business maintains it you will earn on it if you have other legs. Or you will get 21% back on your personal spend.

4.  As for how many people to get to 21%? As long as the spend is 10,000 PV or greater then your at 21%. It can take 100 households, it can take 50, or even more. The idea is you dont recruit all 100. You use the system of duplication and teamwork. A team that has 200 poeple and does 10,000 PV. and 50 people leave. Most times those 50 people didnt contribute to the spend anyway. Remeber its about product movement not number of people. The real power comes in the fact that once you have a team that is large enough it continues with the system and the people at the bottow want the same results. There is no limit. The business will outlive you!

Hope I answered your questions?
Maybe get hold of the guy and tell him you want to know more about the system. He will probably invite you to a conference.
Ask to meet his upline first if you would like to know more about the system. Or go to the conference and see that this system does work. Dont miss the concept!

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AndyD (05-Feb-10)

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## ForumSAUser

Hi

I also recently joined Network21 - 1 week ago - and like you I'm coinsidently also currently working in the IT industry. After the 1st presentation my wife and I were pretty sure we won't by joining beacuase the "IBO's" were rather pushy. At that point we didn't have a clue of how the system actually works, yet they wanted me to tell them "where I am at", implying whether I want to be a shopper or a more involved member. When I asked more questions the one quy dressed in a business suit told me I'm thinking too much about the matter. At the end of the evening we went home feeling cornered and "fake-smiled". 

The following day we phoned the one woman to inform her that we won't be going ahead. She calmly and politely accepted our rejection, but said she would like to see us over coffee in any case. Why we accepted I don't know; maybe it had something to do with the fact that I received a pretty bad work review that day and that I was really sick of my job. Also, she was a very unpretensious, good person and didn't use any one-liners. She truly seemed like an honest individual as well. So we decided to give it a go based on the amazing prospects and the fact that we could get our money back after 3 months.

No matter how well people are doing at Network21 and even knowing the operations are legal, there is still something that bugs me. I can't really put my finger on it but it has something to do with how quickly they encourage you to write down 100 names and numbers of friends and family. It's as if I was pulled into this by the prospect of becoming financially free, and now after barely knowing how these passive incomes are generated I need to encourage others to join my team and as quickly as possible get them to write down their 100 names. It just feels dodgy. I mean in a normal networking opportunity you buy into an idea, then become familiar with the product, then become happy and satisfied with it, then from that space invite others to share the joy and prospects. At Network21/Amway if everyone buys into a dream of becoming financially free and then encourage others to buy in to that same dream, then passive income is generated for the people above.

Money can surely be made from this, but it requires a very big mind shift, i.e absolute faith and dedication to the products and the blind aim of growing your team. I'm usually a very optimistic yet realistic individual, but right now I don't feel like an "independant business owner" at all. I feel rather like a rep for Amway who's sole pupose it is to recruit more reps for Amway, recruiting reps for Amway, recruiting reps....and so a network of consumers grow. The word "Duplication" is used often on the CD's and that is exactly what happens here. "Don't try to do it your way, it won't work". This is another favorite line. It makes me feel a bit like a pawn getting payed for doing exactly as I'm told. I don't think the money is worth this. 

By the way, I am in one of Kevin Harris' teams. He is at diamond level, and the son of Mr Harris who brought Network21 to SA. This weekend my wife and I will meet with him for a nuts and bolts session. At the last wednesday meeting he was speeking with his wife Tamsyn and afterwards I was introduced to him. In our discussion he mentioned that his daughter has two nannys. Strange, because just before in his speech he was saying how wonderful him and Tamsyn's life is now that they both stay home and spend the day with their little doughter. Why would a man with complete financial freedom and an intelligent wife need two nannies? This passive income as obtained through network21 may not be as liberating as painted to be. Lets see.

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AndyD (05-Feb-10), Dave A (05-Feb-10)

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## Dave A

I really, really liked that last post. Kinda sums it up.

It sure is a different way to make money.

There's definitely potential. It's clearly challenging. The pace is hectic and it's full of contradictions. For example, when you look at the people who made it, you can't help but notice how hard they're working.

It can be fun, but it's not easy money - certainly not in the beginning.



> The word "Duplication" is used often on the CD's and that is exactly what happens here. "Don't try to do it your way, it won't work". This is another favorite line. It makes me feel a bit like a pawn getting payed for doing exactly as I'm told. I don't think the money is worth this.


And you're 1 week into it...

OK. You're in now and you've got the attention of an upline  :Cool: 
Not everyone gets that. You've got an opportunity to get a head start.

Personally I'd run with what they're asking, watch, learn and put the "is it worth it" analysis on the backburner just for the moment. Once that heavy start-up support moves on (and it will)... at least you'll be better placed to start pondering that sort of stuff.

It's not going to work for you if you just poke it with a stick.

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## Dave A

KevM answered these quite well, but I'll give my own twisted take on it too in case that helps.



> 1. I would like to know the structure of the scheme if it is a tree or it a just a chain


Actually it's a bit of both. You want to sponsor quite a few people directly under you and you want to sponsor (lots of) people under them.



> 2. When I have reached the so-called 21% stage (R15000 month) what more will I get? Or is this the last stage of the income?


KevM covered this in the main. There *are* additional bonuses as you reach emerald, diamond etc. but you've got to get to platinum yourself before you should be too concerned with breaking platinums under you.



> 3. When I have reached the 21%, and then it happens that down the chain sales drop or people are not active. Will that affect my income?


Of course it will. Realistically people come in and drop out all the time. But with the right structure (width and depth) it won't be an issue. Width improves profitability. Depth improves stability. That's why you don't just sponsor people, you help those people to sponsor people too (much like your upline is probably prepared to do for you).



> 4. How many people I have to recruit to reach 21%?


Technically you need sponsor (recruit) only one who goes ballistic and you end up with one big leg and no profits  :Wink: 

You really want to get to 21% with at least three viable legs (or teams). Often this will consist of one strong leg, one doing OK and one to four kinda limping in. To get that going you probably need to sponsor 20 to 30 people directly under you fairly quickly. In fact, getting 30 frontline in 60 to 90 days should be your first goal. Do that and it gets a lot easier from there because you're going to have viable options.

If that sounds heavy, it doesn't have to be in your *first* 90 days.  :Big Grin: 
But a hot start certainly helps. Success breeds success.

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AndyD (05-Feb-10)

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## Sebzon

Thanks guys, I think my questions were answered very well, but I still need some time to think about this.

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## sterne.law@gmail.com

> Thanks guys, I think my questions were answered very well, but I still need some time to think about this.


I think the razzmataz and pressurizing is what makes people hesitant. that and as per my previous post the experiences of pyramid schems in SA which over shadow the value of genuine multi level marketing.
The reality is if you dont want to recruit and you end up with 3 or 4 members in your chain, so what. they are not going to kick you out. So dont give the names if you do not want to. Naturally we all have differnet selling techniques and comfort zones and no doubt you must do use a methodology that you are comfortable with.
And if you get 3% and they each spend R1000 a month. you are making an easy R120 a month or more importantly have your investment back within 2 years - a 50% return.

To follow up on Dave's comment that success brings success - I think many people start this with the thought, agh I will get 1 or 2 friends and thats it. Then as they see, okay I make a few bucks, so they become more and more active.
There is no doubt that it is an ingenius selling mechanism. In my research the key point for me was that a company like Vodacom is involved, which certainly is an indicator of serious substance.

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## Christine_Sutherland

Hi Sebzon

Whilst it's important to feel comfortable about understanding the way the business works, in network marketing I have to say that just as important, is signing under the right person.

I know some people say that a good business has such excellent duplication that this isn't necessary, but I challenge them to name someone who succeeded without expert mentoring.

A mentor should not only have made money themselves, but should be able to begin building your business under you, for you.  This means that they will make at least the first 5 or 6 calls for you, appoint the people, and sign up anyone interested. And they'll do that with the demeanour of a business professional, without being pushy.  In other words they'll practice a consultative form of selling.

If they can't do this, then it will be a struggle for you.  If they can do this, it becomes easy for you to follow their excellent example and go from strength to strength, referring back to them for ongoing coaching/mentoring.

This way you'll become successful very quickly, and will have the confidence and the competence to mentor others.

Good luck!
Christine

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Dave A (08-Feb-10), Sebzon (09-Feb-10)

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## Josh McGee

I have been with Amway for about 8 months. Yep! I get the same reaction when people find out that im with Amway too, and its always the same old sentence, which is that some relative of theirs hasn't done so well - in most cases I bet they didn't put a solid effort in after the first month of joining.

I am making good progress, but you gota stick at it and keep it up. If I was you I would just ignore the remarks you are getting and focus on building your business. If people have a negative perspective on Amway then its going to be tough to sponsor them, so move on.

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## Rob Hepple

I have had quite a few people say to me that "they know people who have lost money" through the Amway business. Most of them, when I ask them for the people's names get some sort of amnesia and say they can't remember the person's name. The one who gave me a name that I duly contacted said that it was a load of bull, they hadn't said they had lost money. They moved to another network they perceived to be easier and lost money there when it turned out to be an illegal pyramid scheme. I have yet to find anyone who can honestly say they have lost money. 
More than 95% of conventional businesses, that people invest large amounts of capital in, close up within the first 10 years of operation. In other words, if you start a conventional business, according to statistics, you have better than a 95% chance of losing your money. That is serious risk! No one will point this out to you, which is fact, but they suck stuff out of their thumbs or pass on second hand "opinions". If you really  understand this business and you've done your research, there is nothing to lose and a  lot to gain. Go for it and don't listen to second hand stories.

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## Josh McGee

So Will, how have you gone since you have first started this thread?

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## Zaxisus

I am not involved with Amway anymore.  I gave it a try for a year, but it started interfering with my "real job".  I told my upline that I will have to become less active for a while and not attend all the meetings etc, and they became funny about it.  I started feeling like a complete failure, so I cancelled my membership(?) when it expired at the end of 2009.  The last time I spoke to my sponsor was in June/July last year when I couldn't attend the WES.  To this day none of my upline has even contacted me to find out why I cancelled.

I still believe it's an good concept, but it did not deliver what it promised.  I would have had to put in twice as much time and money to get half the rewards of my real job.  It wasn't worth giving up my evenings and weekends with my family.  

The products are absolutely amazing.  I have a colleague who is still involved with Amway (in a completely different "pipe"), and I buy my products through her at the moment.

To whoever is involved with Amway, good luck.  I'm sure if you're willing to put in the time (and money) it will work out for you.

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## harvey999

> Hi Lew.
>          Whoever introduced you to the business, stick close to him/her and follow the business system. There are negative people out there and you'll find that they are people who have either failed to build the business and dropped out or they have formed an opinion based on some other uninformed opinion. There have also been some bad people who also got involved in the Amway business and caused some problems and they were removed from the business. Amway does not screen anybody coming into the business, giving everyone a chance to improve their lives. So, if you want to assess this business properly, do it from the inside. You cannot lose any money because the 90 day 100% money back guarantee on the products also applies to the business. In any business decision you have to base it on facts, not uninformed opinions. On the 6,7 & 8th of November we are having a Weekend Seminar at Gallagher Estates that is going to be attended by thousands of people. This seminar happens every 4 months. At this one 3 new "Diamonds"(there are already 5 diamonds) are going to be recognised for their achievements, plus new Emeralds plus Golds and Silvers and scads of lower achievements. That is where you can do all the research necessary to see the true picture. Always remember that the people who give bad advice will never step forward help you to provide for your family or lifestyle.


"Negative" in Amway jargon means "you're skeptical".
You have every right to be.
Start looking at books by former participants who reached high levels in the N21/Amway legal pyramid scheme, for the truth.... you will find it.. 
these guys are highly skilled, TRAINED, and CLEVER- especially dealing with criticism from any angle.
Make up your own mind, but with the RIGHT information... there is stacks on the Internet...

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## harvey999

Here is the most recent i could find:

Amazon.com: Customer Reviews: Merchants of Deception: An Insider's Chilling Look at the Worldwide, Multi Billion dollar Conspiracy of lies that is Amway and its Motivational Organizations

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## Christine_Sutherland

I just advise people to do the same due diligence when they're assessing a business which uses the leveraged model, as they would any traditional business.

The problem with Amway, as I see it, is that the people who're making any decent money are not making it on actual product volume.  They're making it on commissions from sales of motivational/training material that downline are required to buy in order to remain qualified.

This is not what gets represented to people and it's not a business that is driven by consumer demand for products.  Essentially the business exists on enforced sales to downline of products they would not otherwise wish to acquire.

This violates more than 6 points of due diligence for anyone wishing to build a network marketing business.

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harvey999 (11-Nov-10)

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## Rob Hepple

> "Negative" in Amway jargon means "you're skeptical".
> You have every right to be.
> Start looking at books by former participants who reached high levels in the N21/Amway legal pyramid scheme, for the truth.... you will find it.. 
> these guys are highly skilled, TRAINED, and CLEVER- especially dealing with criticism from any angle.
> Make up your own mind, but with the RIGHT information... there is stacks on the Internet...


The starting point in checking any business is to speak to the successful people. Failures, people who quit or people who have been thrown out of  any business will aways find ways of justifying why this happened. Almost all of them fail to look at themselves first before levelling criticism at the business they were involved in. Let me also qualify 'almost all'. Let me say from the outset that there have been people that have been involved in dodgy and illegal businesses and have had every right to complain but that is certainly not the case with N21 and Amway.
As for pyramid scheme, that is so yesterday. I work for a national estate agency. If ever there was a pyramid scheme, this is it. The guy who owns it is really sitting pretty. He has 6 directors under him. They have about 150 franchise holders under them. The franchise holders in total employ about 2000 agents. Every sale that takes place, a portion of it filters all the way up to the top man who absolutely creams it. Can any one of the agents make more than the top man? Never. In the Amway business, the one who builds the biggest network is the one who makes the most. The man that starts today and goes and builds the biggest business can make more than the person who started 50 years ago. That is the most equitable system in the world.

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## murdock

a couple of years ago i was invited to one of many network 21 meetings which i have attended...but 99% of the people are no longer are involved in it...you will have to believe me i dont plan on naming all the people on a public forum.

i decided this morning to contact one person who i believed would make it if anyone was gona make it because he owns a company and whenever i spoke to him was so sure of himself and because he put in the effort like running any company.

at the meeting you always meet people who are so called successful from it...but i have always thought yeah right...well today i finally know someone who is still at it and told me it is working for him...in fact he tolf me it is booming...they have even opened shops at various locations in kzn...mmm

the deal was that if he was still doing it after 2 years i would join him at a meeting...looks like i will be going to a meeting because he has been doing a lot longer than 2 years.

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## Dave A

> The problem with Amway, as I see it, is that the people who're making any decent money are not making it on actual product volume.  They're making it on commissions from sales of motivational/training material that downline are required to buy in order to remain qualified.


Woah there... blatantly misleading on a couple of levels.

First, purchases of support material does not contribute to qualification level in Amway (except that it should help you be more effective).

Second, you're *not* going to get commissions on the support material sold unless you have built a big enough downline moving product volume!

I can accept a "complaint" that the top performers are receiving  money for more than just the Amway product sales, but to classify their Amway income stream as trivial by comparison is blowing that point out of proportion.

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## Rob Hepple

Thanks Dave A. Well said. Before any comments are posted people should do their due dillegence and not rely on heresay.

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## harvey999

I'm confused! Pl see below an excerpt from an article on the web.
It looks like bad news, but maybe I'm missing something?
Perhaps somebody who is NOT reliant on hearsay can find a hole on the logic?
Thanks!

"According to Amway, their annual sales amounts to about $7 billion and there are 3 million distributors. Thus, the average distributor's sales amounts to about $2,333/yr. If 30% of that is profit, the average distributor makes $700/yr. Klebniov claims that the average income is $780, but the average distributor buys $1,068 worth of Amway goods himself and also has expenses such as telephone bills, gas, motivational meetings, publicity material and other expenses to expand the business. "The average active distributor sells only 19% of his products to non-Amway affiliated consumers," according to Klebniov. "The rest is either personally consumed or sold to other distributors."  In the United States,  the Federal Trade Commission requires Amway to label its products with the message that 54% of Amway recruits make nothing and the rest earn on average $65 a month. No such labels are required in other countries, but the facts are clear. Most people who get involved in Amway will not make money."

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## Rob Hepple

> I'm confused! Pl see below an excerpt from an article on the web.
> It looks like bad news, but maybe I'm missing something?
> Perhaps somebody who is NOT reliant on hearsay can find a hole on the logic?
> Thanks!
> 
> "According to Amway, their annual sales amounts to about $7 billion and there are 3 million distributors. Thus, the average distributor's sales amounts to about $2,333/yr. If 30% of that is profit, the average distributor makes $700/yr. Klebniov claims that the average income is $780, but the average distributor buys $1,068 worth of Amway goods himself and also has expenses such as telephone bills, gas, motivational meetings, publicity material and other expenses to expand the business. "The average active distributor sells only 19% of his products to non-Amway affiliated consumers," according to Klebniov. "The rest is either personally consumed or sold to other distributors."  In the United States,  the Federal Trade Commission requires Amway to label its products with the message that 54% of Amway recruits make nothing and the rest earn on average $65 a month. No such labels are required in other countries, but the facts are clear. Most people who get involved in Amway will not make money."


Instead of assuming this article this quote is what the Amway business is all about, go and check it out from the inside. It takes some WORK, like any other business.

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## harvey999

> Instead of assuming this article this quote is what the Amway business is all about, go and check it out from the inside. It takes some WORK, like any other business.


Thanks for the reply Rob.
I have been to some of the seminars. And checked out what I can get access to directly from N21A on the web. The problem is that any information directly from N21A, is either (1) VERY vague on the actual sales figures etc or (2) contains endless repetitive stories about successful couples.
So...  I have to rely on information from elsewhere.. hopefully from this site or objective sources like Wikipedia.
I seems that you are on the inside?
SO, please could you address my question, simply, openly and directly?
That's why I put the question on this forum!
Look forward to your view about the specific figures.
Many thanks

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## harvey999

PS In response to your post that "I'm assuming" this is what Amway is "all about", pls read the original again carefully. I was asking a QUESTION.. purely from ignorance, and hoping for some help from an informed person on this forum. It sounds like an N21/A standard reply to me! "Go check it out on the inside.. it takes WORK"

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## Dave A

> "According to Amway, their annual sales amounts to about $7 billion and there are 3 million distributors. Thus, the average distributor's sales amounts to about $2,333/yr. If 30% of that is profit, the average distributor makes $700/yr. Klebniov claims that the average income is $780, but the average distributor buys $1,068 worth of Amway goods himself and also has expenses such as telephone bills, gas, motivational meetings, publicity material and other expenses to expand the business. "The average active distributor sells only 19% of his products to non-Amway affiliated consumers," according to Klebniov. "The rest is either personally consumed or sold to other distributors."  In the United States,  the Federal Trade Commission requires Amway to label its products with the message that 54% of Amway recruits make nothing and the rest earn on average $65 a month. No such labels are required in other countries, but the facts are clear. Most people who get involved in Amway will not make money."


Harvey, the stats are horrific. What's missing above is (about*) 80% of distributors never sponsor *anyone* - primarily because they never even gave it a decent shot.

Take that 80% out of the "distributor" category, shunt them to member consumers and the stats on the people actually *working* the system improve substantially.

They're still not great, but then neither are the stats on the number of new "traditional" businesses that make it past the first year - run traditional business success rates to five years and it gets even worse...

I've never seen a stat on what the average earn is for Amway distributors who have been in for 5 years... It would be interesting.

Ultimately the FTC should, in the interests of consistency, insist that every business licence and business registration document issued in the USA contains a warning that most businesses fail in the first year and most small business owners lose their life savings in the process.

Make no mistake, you're going to have to beat the average to succeed. And that applies to a lot more than Amway.

*relying on memory from a stat given to me quite a few years ago.

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harvey999 (16-Nov-10)

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## Rob Hepple

> Harvey, the stats are horrific. What's missing above is (about*) 80% of distributors never sponsor *anyone* - primarily because they never even gave it a decent shot.
> 
> Take that 80% out of the "distributor" category, shunt them to member consumers and the stats on the people actually *working* the system improve substantially.
> 
> They're still not great, but then neither are the stats on the number of new "traditional" businesses that make it past the first year - run traditional business success rates to five years and it gets even worse...
> 
> I've never seen a stat on what the average earn is for Amway distributors who have been in for 5 years... It would be interesting.
> 
> Ultimately the FTC should, in the interests of consistency, insist that every business licence and business registration document issued in the USA contains a warning that most businesses fail in the first year and most small business owners lose their life savings in the process.
> ...


Thanks Dave A. Apologies to those of you asking questions. Yes I have been vague in my replies. The Amway business is, as I have said previously, a business like any other. As far as what the turnover was over the past year was I'm not absolutely sure but it was up by about 10-15% so that must push it up between 8-9 billion dollars.(56-63 billion rand) The company is growing incredibly well in these hard times when most other companies have shown very little or no growth over the same period, and it is debt free. Amway the company is going to be there forever to back up the network so we can feel secure that it is the rock on which we can build our businesses.
What does this information mean to each and every distributor old or new? Apart from the obvious security, absolutely nothing. There are many Amway ditributors who sign up into the business just to get the products at wholesale, get home delivery and use them for themselves. Does the network benefit, of course it does! If they sign up in an active consumer pipeline then they will benefit from further growing discounts(from 3 up to 21%). Then there are many people who sign up into the business who initially see it as a get rich quick and easy scheme and, when it becomes obvious that there is work involved, they are not prepared to put in the hard yards and they either cancel or slowly fade away into the background and from this group are the people who say the business doesn't work. About 15-20% of the people who sign up are the ones who go on to build significant businesses.
Network 21 has nothing to do with Amway, the company. They are a business that markets a step by step business system that, if you are prepared to follow it, will give 100% predictable results. It is not an information platform for Amway. It is not there to give figures about how Amway is doing financially. It is a business education system. What is the system? It is a system of listening to cd's,(some have success stories-case studies, some teach specific things, some target people with specific business backgrounds etc.), reading business education books and attending regular meetings and seminars, just like any other dynamic, results driven business.
If anyone who wants to achieve financial independence but more importantly, build a life of true significance within a relatively short period of time, this is the business for them. The naysayers are out there by the dozen. If you listen to there inane invective you'll never achieve anything. Focus on the success because it is there in heaps and it's not just the people who have been in the business for a long time. 
Remember, it's no good sitting on the sidelines poking the business with a stick because the snakes will jump out and bite you. If you really want to change your financial future, get busy with the business or otherwise walk away from it and focus on something else. Amway is the company who offers ANYONE the opportunity to start their own business for very little capital investment(R50) by re-directing their normal monthly expenditure to save money and make money. Network 21 is the company that provides the business system to achieve success. The business system is optional, you do not have to use it, but I would advise everyone to subscribe to it because if you follow it to the letter you will succeed.

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## Zaxisus

Allrighty, so after 2 years I'm back to give my _personal_ view on how Amway worked for me.  In short, it didn't, but bear with me while I explain _why_ it didn't.  I understand it will be different for everyone and people should not base their decision to join/not join Amway solely on my view.  But it might help...

I was involved with Amway for a year.  For that year I was a fully-fletched groupie.  I went to all the meetings, all the team-buildings, introduced all my friends to the business, and even joined the Sunday afternoon call sessions.  But, when my membership came up for renewal I got out and away from Amway as fast as my feet could carry me.

Herewith some basic stats (from MY experience, and based on last year's prices):
- Joining up fee:  R75 + R120 membership fee + products to the value of R650.  You could not do one without the other
- Starter Pack for start-up training:  R250 (this is a N21 product and not Amway, but Amway is using it for their basic start-up training)
- Monthly products to the value of R1200 (to get to the first 3% commission hurdle and keep your crown as a "trendsetter")
- Monthly BBS meeting: R100 (Business Building Seminar - this is where the Diamonds tell you what they did to make it to Diamond stage)
- Quarterly WES:  R750 (Weekend Seminar - and if it is in Jhb, flights and accommodation)
- Weekly Meetings: R20 (for venue hire - if we brought interested people we did not have to pay for them)
- Yearly Membership fee: R120
- Optional CEM (Continuing Education Material from N21): R240 per month and up, depending on which package you take.  For the basic intro level you get one book and 3 CD's per month.  You are supposed to use the material to motivate you and others to build your business and learn from the experts by listening to the testimonial CD's.

Above and beyond all this I changed my insurance to Amsure, even took out a Vodacom contract in an attempt to scrounge together as many PV as possible.

What I have learned from this experience, is that (unfortunately) you need money to make money.  Even though the Amway products are amazing, they are quite expensive and that makes it difficult to sell to try and make some kind of return on your investment.

So, like I said, this did not work for me.  I actually ended up losing money.  I'm sure this would have evened out in the long run, and maybe after a few years I might actually have turned a profit.  For me it just seems like too much work to earn the "passive income" they promised.  I'd rather invest my money - at least then I'll know I'm getting something back without working for it!!  :Smile:

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Dave A (16-Nov-10), Mark Atkinson (16-Nov-10)

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## Rob Hepple

> Allrighty, so after 2 years I'm back to give my _personal_ view on how Amway worked for me.  In short, it didn't, but bear with me while I explain _why_ it didn't.  I understand it will be different for everyone and people should not base their decision to join/not join Amway solely on my view.  But it might help...
> 
> I was involved with Amway for a year.  For that year I was a fully-fletched groupie.  I went to all the meetings, all the team-buildings, introduced all my friends to the business, and even joined the Sunday afternoon call sessions.  But, when my membership came up for renewal I got out and away from Amway as fast as my feet could carry me.
> 
> Herewith some basic stats (from MY experience, and based on last year's prices):
> - Joining up fee:  R75 + R120 membership fee + products to the value of R650.  You could not do one without the other
> - Starter Pack for start-up training:  R250 (this is a N21 product and not Amway, but Amway is using it for their basic start-up training)
> - Monthly products to the value of R1200 (to get to the first 3% commission hurdle and keep your crown as a "trendsetter")
> - Monthly BBS meeting: R100 (Business Building Seminar - this is where the Diamonds tell you what they did to make it to Diamond stage)
> ...


Hi Willemien. Your story is like many others and mine. I was initially frustrated out of my brain and I had to step back and look at the situation and ask the question, " is it the business that is not working or is it me that is not working the system consistently, to the letter." You know the answer. The business is an inanimate thing. Nothing will work unless you do the work and use the right tools. You saw and heard all the successful people saying it over and over and, if you were anything like me, you applauded them, made all the right resolutions and when you got back out to the coalface the fact that you had to show at least 15 plans a month and follow up on those people was daunting, to say the least. If you had hung in there and bit the bullet it would have happened.
It's exactly the same in my job. If I do not get out there, knock on peoples doors and pick up stock, take clients out to view the properties on a daily basis, me and my family will starve and I will be fired. Those who go out there and do the extraordinary reap the rewards. The business is up to you. Because people work it part time and they still have an income, if it becomes tough and it's easy to say the business doesn't work(as an excuse) and trash it to their friends. It takes guts to admit that they didn't do the work and follow the system. It's easy to be a groupie and go to the meetings and get a few friends involved but, when your friends list runs out and you have to start prospecting for real and you're not following the system, you hit the wall. The people who get up and decide to follow the successful people are the ones who make it. Please remember this is not a job with a boss to keep on prodding you. Here it is up to you.
In any business that you start you will require capital(certainly far more than is required in the Amway business). If you fail you cannot blame the business because you are the driving force behind it. At least 95% of all new businesses fail in the first 5 years and the people lose their capital. Do they get onto the internet and trash whatever business they were involved in. No, because that would be tantamount to admitting that they failed because there is no one to point their fingers at. In the Amway business when people fail to do the work it is very convenient to point fingers at Amway and say Amway didn't work. The question is, who didn't do the work and follow the system? 
Amway is certainly not using N21 to build the business. It is N21 that is using the Amway business as the vehicle to earn the money. When anyone signs into the business, N21 is always optional. Worldwide there are other training systems, not just N21. When Amway launched in South Africa there were a few other training systems operating but they were not as successful as N21and subsequently changed their focus to other countries. Anyone can start an Amway business and work it on their own or just use the products.

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## Dave A

> I was initially frustrated out of my brain and I had to step back and look at the situation and ask the question, " is it the business that is not working or is it me that is not working the system consistently, to the letter." You know the answer.


I think we need to concede that sometimes it's just a bad fit. It's not the right time in their life, they didn't click with their upline enough to get out of their comfort zone, or even they're simply not cut out for it full stop.

I also think it's a bit glib to focus all the failure blame on the person quitting -



> At least 95% of all new businesses fail in the first 5 years and the people lose their capital. Do they get onto the internet and trash whatever business they were involved in. No, because that would be tantamount to admitting that they failed because there is no one to point their fingers at. In the Amway business when people fail to do the work it is very convenient to point fingers at Amway and say Amway didn't work. The question is, who didn't do the work and follow the system?


when all too often there's so much pressure put on them to join in the first place. Were they really that interested or were they just taking the easy out by signing up? 

No surprise so many go through the motions, and wait for the chance to slip away without too much fuss.

It's a little different to the traditional business failure - at least there you're not normally faced with a well-trained extremist dreaming of yachts, fast cars, exotic travel etc. pushing you into doing something you're actually pretty reluctant to try on.

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## harvey999

> Harvey, the stats are horrific. What's missing above is (about*) 80% of distributors never sponsor *anyone* - primarily because they never even gave it a decent shot.
> 
> Take that 80% out of the "distributor" category, shunt them to member consumers and the stats on the people actually *working* the system improve substantially.
> 
> They're still not great, but then neither are the stats on the number of new "traditional" businesses that make it past the first year - run traditional business success rates to five years and it gets even worse...
> 
> I've never seen a stat on what the average earn is for Amway distributors who have been in for 5 years... It would be interesting.
> 
> Ultimately the FTC should, in the interests of consistency, insist that every business licence and business registration document issued in the USA contains a warning that most businesses fail in the first year and most small business owners lose their life savings in the process.
> ...


Thanks Dave-
What worries me is WHY the 80% dropout rate?
The standard Amway response to this is: "oh they weren't prepared to give it a full go".   I believe this is true for certain a certain percentage. However, there must be a fair amount who leave because they see the time, effort & resources required to build more of AMWAY'S BUSINESS (note) are just not worth it, once they find out the truth. This seems true for more than than one contributor on this thread. Also, trying to sign friends/acquaintances up can LOSE you friends! Seen it myself. Once people find out you got them together for an ulterior motive, the attitude and ambience of the gathering can change completely. You can lose a lot of respect from former friends like this!

Interesting discussion though... lively debate

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## Nigel Hamilton

What is the failure rate of small business in SA, isn't it close to 90%?

80% pretty good then?

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## harvey999

Failure rate of businesses after 5 years is about 80% when i last heard.
HOWEVER, often the property, furniture & equipment & residual stock accumulated during the 5 years softens the blow, or liquidates the proprietor....  what is left after a network marketing venture... some stock & marketing experience perhaps?

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## Rob Hepple

> I think we need to concede that sometimes it's just a bad fit. It's not the right time in their life, they didn't click with their upline enough to get out of their comfort zone, or even they're simply not cut out for it full stop.
> 
> I also think it's a bit glib to focus all the failure blame on the person quitting -
> 
> when all too often there's so much pressure put on them to join in the first place. Were they really that interested or were they just taking the easy out by signing up? 
> 
> No surprise so many go through the motions, and wait for the chance to slip away without too much fuss.
> 
> It's a little different to the traditional business failure - at least there you're not normally faced with a well-trained extremist dreaming of yachts, fast cars, exotic travel etc. pushing you into doing something you're actually pretty reluctant to try on.


Hi Dave A. I really appreciate your comments and views. You and I have been around the block a bit. I am now 60 years old and I have had a few business ventures. Two were very successful, one not very successful and one was a total failure. All 4 were businesses that relied on me as the figurehead and sole proprietor. I unfortunately had no mentor in all of them and to this day I wish I had had one. There was a financial advisor, and a very successful entrepeneur, who took a liking and an interest in me and my business dealings. He was a fantastic guy and in hindsight his vision and advice was incredible. At that time he was 62 years old and was willing to mentor me and I blew it. I thought I knew it all and ignored his advice and eventually paid the price.
In the Amway business, IT"S THE SAME AS ANY OTHER BUSINESS. When I first signed up I thought this was a piece of cake. I also thought that the guys up on stage were a bunch of well trained extremists. Well, after a year and a half of complete frustration I had to re-evaluate. What was wrong? To cut a long story short I had to swallow my pride and admit that I was just not allowing myself to be teachable. Those well trained extremists are not extremists but people who have gone through the same trials and frustrations we all go through, allowed themselves to become teachable, and eventually reaped the success. Remember, success in this business lasts forever. Once the business is correctly built the income goes on forever. That's what it's all about. That's what very few other business's (if any) can give those who bite the bullet.
Failure in ANY BUSINESS is exactly the same. Whether it was your failure to have enough capital, failure to have enough knowledge, failure to take advice, failure to be teachable, failure to do whatever, the fact is you failed to do something that could have prevented the failure of your business. Face the facts and don't blame anything else, especially not the business for your failure. Quitting is admitting failure. If you follow, to the letter, the N21 system, then the business should start generating enough cash to fund your business by the second or third month.
So, what is the bottom line. Be prepared to be teachable from the beginning and follow the N21 system. This is a formal challenge. Anyone who signs up in the business from now on and follows the N21 system to the letter (in other words is prepared to be "core" for 2 years- I'll check with their upline) and does not succeed I'll print this whole thread and eat it.
ANYONE who truly wants the financial freedom that the Amway business offers can do it. It is just a decision that each and every individual must make because incredible rewards demand incredible commitment. If you understand this and commit yourself you WILL succeed. 
Too many people want great rewards with no commitment. Doesn't work.

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## Dave A

That "extremist" crack got to you a bit, huh?  :Wink:

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## Rob Hepple

> That "extremist" crack got to you a bit, huh?


It certainly did

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## Dave A

:Sorry: 

Unfortunately "passionate" and "extremist" are not that far apart. And as we know, being passionate in MLM is one of the keys to success. Your belief simply *has* to be far stronger than the prospect's doubt.

Most times it's your belief, your confidence that they're actually signing up for.

Just one of those situations where you're damned if you are (passionate) and damned if you're not - just in totally different ways.

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## harvey999

> Hi Dave A. I really appreciate your comments and views. You and I have been around the block a bit. I am now 60 years old and I have had a few business ventures. Two were very successful, one not very successful and one was a total failure. All 4 were businesses that relied on me as the figurehead and sole proprietor. I unfortunately had no mentor in all of them and to this day I wish I had had one. There was a financial advisor, and a very successful entrepeneur, who took a liking and an interest in me and my business dealings. He was a fantastic guy and in hindsight his vision and advice was incredible. At that time he was 62 years old and was willing to mentor me and I blew it. I thought I knew it all and ignored his advice and eventually paid the price.
> In the Amway business, IT"S THE SAME AS ANY OTHER BUSINESS. When I first signed up I thought this was a piece of cake. I also thought that the guys up on stage were a bunch of well trained extremists. Well, after a year and a half of complete frustration I had to re-evaluate. What was wrong? To cut a long story short I had to swallow my pride and admit that I was just not allowing myself to be teachable. Those well trained extremists are not extremists but people who have gone through the same trials and frustrations we all go through, allowed themselves to become teachable, and eventually reaped the success. Remember, success in this business lasts forever. Once the business is correctly built the income goes on forever. That's what it's all about. That's what very few other business's (if any) can give those who bite the bullet.
> Failure in ANY BUSINESS is exactly the same. Whether it was your failure to have enough capital, failure to have enough knowledge, failure to take advice, failure to be teachable, failure to do whatever, the fact is you failed to do something that could have prevented the failure of your business. Face the facts and don't blame anything else, especially not the business for your failure. Quitting is admitting failure. If you follow, to the letter, the N21 system, then the business should start generating enough cash to fund your business by the second or third month.
> So, what is the bottom line. Be prepared to be teachable from the beginning and follow the N21 system. This is a formal challenge. Anyone who signs up in the business from now on and follows the N21 system to the letter (in other words is prepared to be "core" for 2 years- I'll check with their upline) and does not succeed I'll print this whole thread and eat it.
> ANYONE who truly wants the financial freedom that the Amway business offers can do it. It is just a decision that each and every individual must make because incredible rewards demand incredible commitment. If you understand this and commit yourself you WILL succeed. 
> Too many people want great rewards with no commitment. Doesn't work.


Sorry Chaps. Anybody who thinks Amway (or any MLM) is THEIR own business, is seriously misguided, or trying to fool others to sign up for their own benefit.
"Building your business": Another Amway term designed to create smoke and mirrors, and attract participants "down the pipeline".
Just like the Health and Environmental/Green cause. Great for marketing!

In an ordinary business, one has the FREEDOM OF CHOICE for suppliers, best quality at best price. Not in this case- its all channeled through Amway, high prices (they have to be) because all the participants in the "pipeline" need to get a piece of the pie: notably the "upliners" from the "down the tubers"!

Amway, admittedly, is a highly sophisticated sales structure. Supplying GOOD products, that must be said. But its THEIR business, the actual shareholders, not anybody elses!
And it is manned by highly skilled, PERSUASIVE salespeople "up the pipeline".
If you start getting involved and don't make it, you need MOTIVATION!
Come to the courses... only R750 a weekend, no food provided!
This is where most of the income for actual Amway or Network 21 shareholders comes from: Seminars (with no published agenda), and costly motivational material.
Can anybody challenge this? Please do.

Amway/Network 21 has been described by a number of independent sources on the web as a "Legal Pyramid scheme". This will be vehemently denied, but surely the "pipelines" need to be fed by other "pipelines", and what do you end up with?

Amway and Network 21 works- been around 50 years?, huge business.
But somebody loses.
They have to.
Many of those at the bottom.. as the statistics show.
What happens is they end up buying more of the products for themselves or family than they earn from bonuses.

Doubt whether this post will be passed by the Administration (or should i say "Amwinistration"!), but reading through the threads before this, I had to get it out...sorry!

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## Rob Hepple

Hi Dave A. 
          Apologies for late reply. My e-mail has been down for a couple of days.
You're absolutely right. When you've been through all the tough times and you start to really reap the rewards and you know what you've done is duplicatable, you become passionate about it. The rewards in this business, in my opinion, cannot be matched by anything else. I can only encourage whoever gets involved to give it a full go. Follow the system, listen to the cd's, read the books and listen to your upline who will mentor you. 
By the way, Dave, you're on my list.

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## Dave A

> Come to the courses... only R750 a weekend, no food provided!
> This is where most of the income for actual Amway or Network 21 shareholders comes from: Seminars (with no published agenda), and costly motivational material.
> Can anybody challenge this? Please do.


I believe that post has already been made.



> Herewith some basic stats (from MY experience, and based on last year's prices):
> - Joining up fee:  R75 + R120 membership fee + products to the value of R650.  You could not do one without the other
> - Starter Pack for start-up training:  R250 (this is a N21 product and not Amway, but Amway is using it for their basic start-up training)
> - Monthly products to the value of R1200 (to get to the first 3% commission hurdle and keep your crown as a "trendsetter")
> - Monthly BBS meeting: R100 (Business Building Seminar - this is where the Diamonds tell you what they did to make it to Diamond stage)
> - Quarterly WES:  R750 (Weekend Seminar - and if it is in Jhb, flights and accommodation)
> - Weekly Meetings: R20 (for venue hire - if we brought interested people we did not have to pay for them)
> - Yearly Membership fee: R120
> - Optional CEM (Continuing Education Material from N21): R240 per month and up, depending on which package you take.  For the basic intro level you get one book and 3 CD's per month.


Ok - I heard this morning that the Law Society is complaining that new law graduates don't have a grip on basic maths (or reading for that matter), so let me do the maths for you. Ignoring start-up costs as pretty much once-off, the relative monthly turnovers would be:

N21 turnover (Totals R686.67 per month)
Monthly BBS meeting - R100
Weekly meetings - R20 x 52 / 12 = R86.67
Quarterly WES - R750 / 3 = R250
Annual membership - R120 / 12 = R10 (I think that actually goes to Amway, but just in case)
CEP - R240

Amway turnover (totals R1200 per month).
Product sales - R1200

(I think it's reasonable to assume if you're "going all the way" on the N21 support program, you're going to spend this order of money on the product too).

Now here's your challenge - put that N21 package together for less money. Have you costed booking a venue for a convention lately, let alone all the other essential expenses required to make it an event? 

Or bought any good books?



> Doubt whether this post will be passed by the Administration (or should i say "Amwinistration"!), but reading through the threads before this, I had to get it out...sorry!


You probably should take a better look around TFSA. Very little spam but lot's of divergent opinions. Contrary opnions are encouraged - it's up to the reader to draw their own conclusions.

And on the subject of conclusions, here's mine on you:
You've made up your mind already (which isn't a problem - in fact, good for you  :Thumbup:  ).You shouldn't do Amway (I can guarantee you will fail).
You're welcome to disagree. 



> By the way, Dave, you're on my list.


Let me help you with that, Rob. Just copy and paste this onto your list:



```
Dave A (Got his own business opportunity going already and very happy with it).
Will buy the toothpaste.

NEXT!
```

I must say this recent spurt of activity in this thread had me pondering (once again) just what the crux of the Amway controversy might be. And a relatively new perspective came to mind -

When you look at the investment, it really is no big deal once you get to a level making lots of money. But getting to some small gain, like an extra R2000 per month nett - it's an absolute monster.

If all you are looking for is an extra R2k per month (and I've got a story to tell on this, but another time as it's getting late) there are other, more favourable options.

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## Rob Hepple

> I believe that post has already been made.
> 
> Ok - I heard this morning that the Law Society is complaining that new law graduates don't have a grip on basic maths (or reading for that matter), so let me do the maths for you. Ignoring start-up costs as pretty much once-off, the relative monthly turnovers would be:
> 
> N21 turnover (Totals R686.67 per month)
> Monthly BBS meeting - R100
> Weekly meetings - R20 x 52 / 12 = R86.67
> Quarterly WES - R750 / 3 = R250
> Annual membership - R120 / 12 = R10 (I think that actually goes to Amway, but just in case)
> ...


The figures are right. The R686.87 is also tax deductable. The money my wife and I spend through the business ( personal care, home care, food, clothing, cellphone, short-term insurance, internet connection etc.) is money I would be spending anyway and it costs less than buying it in the store. With the odd handbag (which my wife considers vital) and clothing items it is always a lot more than R1200. As to Dave A not succeeding you've got to consider the number of old Distributors coming back into the business and now making a go of it.
Got you going there didn't I, Dave A?

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## Dave A

> As to Dave A not succeeding...


 :Fish:  ?

Nice try  :Big Grin:

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## Brelin

Hi

I went to a Amway seminaar last night and am interested as to know how you started. I have spoken to other individuals who are very negative and believe you have to sell Amway product to become successful. How much time did you commit per week to Amway

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## Blurock

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it probably is a duck! This appears to be a scheme and not a business. Why do members try to get you to presentations without telling you up front that they are trying to recruit you? Why do you have to go to a venue to sit through a high powered marketing presentation without being introduced to the products or the actual company behind all this? Money is the main motivator. This is no doubt a pyramid scheme with some benefits to some people, but the poor suckers still pay! Why is everything so secretive (is it because it is American like the Klu Klux Clan)? If we all buy these American products online, what will happen to our South African businesses and the people working for it? I will appreciate if any one has more information to share, but on face value this does not appeal to me.

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## Rob Hepple

Hi Brelin.
          Well done for going to the presentation yesterday. Are there negative people out there? You had better believe it. 99.9% do not have a clue what they're talking about. We DO NOT sell Amway products to become successful. I usually spend between 7 and 12 hours per week building the business. If you need more information about the business speak to the person who invited you to the meeting. Network 21 is the best adult business education system around and Amway is far and away the best network marketing system in the world. Turnover for 2010 was a little over 9.2 billion dollars (more than 66 billion Rand). They've been helping people to start their own business' for 51 years. Just do it. It's worth it.

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## Rob Hepple

Hi Blurock.
             I'm inviting you to an Network 21 meeting. You live in Durban and so do I. I'm sure you will find it informative.

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## Blurock

Thanks Rob, I've been to one - hence the comments. Why did they not tell me up front of the costs involved? Attending weekly & monthly meetings? No one told me about that. Only picked it up on this thread. And you have to pay for listening to someone jabbering on a cd - Monthly! I am happy in my business. I will never get rich, but I do have the satisfaction of mentoring some entrepreneurs to success and adding value to their business. Everything is done in the open with no hidden agendas. I do not think I will be able to perform in a structure such as Amway.

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## Rob Hepple

Hi Blurock.
             Could we meet sometime this week. Definitely will not try to get you into the business. I'm sure you'll be open to listen to the truth.

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## Christine_Sutherland

I'm not an MLM critic, although I do strongly criticise the poor practices that abound in the industry.  There are some excellent MLMs out there and they are excellent because they operate by the MLM Code of Ethics, they pass due diligence, and people in them earn money.

In assessing Amway, as in assessing any opportunity, your due diligence should mean finding out how many levels up from you are people actually earning any significant money from sales of consumable product (not from forced purchases of motivational material).

Also, in the leveraged business model, the bulk of your earnings will be in the "back end", that is 4 or more levels below you.  If Amway is only paying on 3 levels, statistically you can see quite clearly that you will earn around 10-100 times less than a company paying 4 to 6 levels deep.

I recommend everyone here grab a copy of the book "How to Make More Money" available free from Smashwords so that when you're evaluating any business, especially including an MLM, you do so with your eyes wide open and ensure you get the best possible financial return for your time and effort.

Now in addition to this people must realise there are upfront costs in any business, and there are ongoing costs.  In most MLMs these are ridiculously small compared to traditional business. And, within 3 months these should be completely covered by earnings, IF you're following a proven, duplicable system.

Ongoing training, support, and mentoring will also be required, NO MATTER YOUR BACKGROUND. In most cases this is free or almost free and in my opinion someone who doesn't soak up as much as humanly possible of this is not going to make it. There is a learning curve.

If you just do this, and you've chosen a company that has consumable products that people actually do want, and can't get elsewhere, then you have a good chance of succeeding in terms of maybe earning a few hundred or a few thousand dollars a month.

However if you want the really big money, as in tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands a month, that requires more advanced skills, particularly in terms of teaching and mentoring others, and manufacturing power lines (money lines). It also means becoming a leader of leaders, stepping up in terms of personal development, reaching new levels of disciplined thought and disciplined action.

None of this is easy, but the rewards are out of all proportion to the effort applied. I can tell you that it's a very rewarding life, on every level, far more than just financially.

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Dave A (07-Mar-11)

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## Blurock

Thanks for the invite Rob. I think its only fair to first speak to the guys who introduced me.

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## Rob Hepple

Hi Christine.
               Anyone who truly has done due diligence on MLM in general and Amway specifically would know that most of these comments are way off the mark. Any MLM that is restricted in levels or depth is firstly restricted in income and secondly in longevity, whether it is 3,4,6,9 or whatever. Amway has never and never will be restricted in levels. Even if I have, as an example, someone on level 1000, because of the way the business is structured, I will still have some benefit coming through. It goes on forever. As for Network 21, it is the finest networking business and education system on the planet, personally endorsed by Robert Kiyosaki. As for reading in Network 21 we subscribe to a book every month, not just about network marketing but about lifeskills, relationship building etc.  Nobody is forced to purchase motivational material and our money is made from consuming products. (of which there are now more than 1000 in South Africa- Australia has, as far as I know, close to 10,000.)  
               Yes, network marketing is not easy but by the same token starting any new business is not easy. They both require commitment. With Network marketing, specifically Amway, there is no risk. If you feel that after 90 days that the business is not for you, you can get your money back. I have yet to find another MLM with this type of guarantee.
               There are a number of Universities in the United states where you can enrol for a degree in Network Marketing. I would suggest, as a starting point in your due diligence, that one of these might help.

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## Rob Hepple

Hi Blurock.
             Great idea.

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## thanethomson

There's a fundamental flaw in Network 21's value proposition. See this article I wrote here: http://thanethomson.com/2012/03/28/t...e-proposition/

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## Dave A

When people drop links rather than make a point here, I'm inclined to get a little feisty  :Sorry: 

So




> The first part of their value proposition is fine – it’s the second part that really creeps me out, and my reasoning here is very simple.


It's probably more complex than the business, but let's look at it anyway.




> Ask yourself: why is it that you want more time? Most people would answer that they want more time to spend with their loved ones.


Statisticaly most people answer that they want to travel.

But that's cool. You want to spend more time with your loved ones, so let's look at that.




> The problem is, for the average person without an extensive personal network (like the average people that attend such meetings as I did on Monday), the only people you really end up signing up are your friends and family.
> 
> They, in turn, end up doing the same with their friends and family, and so on


I had 2 friends and one family member sign up, and a bunch of total strangers - some of whom eventually became friends. But if you won't talk to strangers, I guess you're right.

BTW - would you be interested in making some new friends?




> (until of course there’s nobody willing left to sign up - but nobody talks about that possibility, they only talk about how this sort of thing has worked so well for the last 50-odd years).


Actually people do - it's just that talking about churn and people quitting and how it means the people who do the work end up getting the reward is probably a bit advanced for an introductory meeting  :Stick Out Tongue: 




> So if I sign up to this thing, I’m basically taking a cut of my friends’ and family’s grocery bills every month, so that I can get more time to spend time with them? How many of these people still actually have real friends and close family relationships after duping them into signing up for this sort of thing? How would you feel if your friend got you signed up to this thing under the auspices that it would be good for you?


Actually, they were all pretty cool about it.




> I would feel used. This is exactly the opposite of what the second part of their value proposition seems to offer, and so, to me, is fundamentally contradictory.


So if that wasn't a problem, is there anything else bugging you?

BTW - how is your *current* plan to spend more time with your friends and loved ones working out?

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## thanethomson

Thanks Dave. I felt I'd made my point pretty clearly in my blog post and didn't feel like re-typing it here. Apologies for the delayed response - I seem to have missed the e-mail notification of your reply.

My current plan to spend more time with my friends and loved ones is actually working out quite well - I can probably count the number of evenings and weekends I've spent at home by myself in 2012 on my one hand, and I've probably met nearly a hundred new people just this past year (and at the age of 27, I'm not even on Facebook - can you believe it?). This is primarily because I put a high value on real-world relatonships in general, and do my best to plan my work around my relationships, instead of the other way around. I was never really an outgoing person - I was quite withdrawn as a child and had to make a conscious decision in the past few years to value people and relationships (above travelling, by the way).

Also, I'm lucky in that the work I've chosen to do is quite niche, and allows me to charge a premium for my effort. There's something about doing productive work that's in line with who you are that's incredibly empowering and rewarding. Read Erich Fromm's "The Fear of Freedom" (http://www.kalahari.com/books/The-Fe...2/9720602.aspx) to understand my perspective on productive work.

The difference between what I do and what I see Network 21 doing is that I can actually tell you what value I'm helping other people capture, and I capture some of that value with them: win-win.

In Network 21, I see many, many people losing for a very long time, and very few people winning. The few who do win depend heavily on those who don't. This is not sustainable, and morally wrong, in my opinion. To understand my perspective on value and morality, please read "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" (http://www.kalahari.com/books/Zen-an.../29092339.aspx) and its sequel "Lila" (http://www.kalahari.com/books/Lila/632/41183978.aspx) by Robert Pirsig. He's probably one of the most forward-thinking modern philosophers, and his ideas are far ahead of their time (he has an IQ of 170, so it's understandable they'd be ahead of their time).

Once you've read those books, i.e. when we have some more common ground, I'd be glad to engage with you again on this matter. I have a feeling that you and I lead very, very different lives at this point in time and so engaging with you further in our current, very distinct contexts will not be fruitful.

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## Dave A

> The few who do win depend heavily on those who don't. This is not sustainable, and morally wrong, in my opinion.


A bit like being of the opinion that the world is flat. I regret track record *clearly* shows it's sustainable  :Smile: 




> Once you've read those books, i.e. when we have some more common ground...


I suspect we share more common ground than you think. Our *lack* of common ground appears to be on N21 and Amway experience. I've been in it, done it, and moved on already. I gather you haven't. And seeing as Amway and N21 is what this discussion is about, there's only one way we can fix that  :Smile: 




> My current plan to spend more time with my friends and loved ones is actually working out quite well


Chuffed to hear that  :Thumbup: 




> I can probably count the number of evenings and weekends I've spent at home by myself in 2012 on my one hand, and I've probably met nearly a hundred new people just this past year


Gee - you'd be great at this business  :Smile: 
Got any names for me of people interested in making some serious money?

We done then? Not for you right now?
Oh well - let me be off to find and make a winner. Thanks for your time.

*NEXT!*

And opportunity starts walking out the door



ps. try not to take this and my previous post too seriously - at least 80% of it is pretty standard N21 style responses to stuff that comes up all the time.
Unfortunately it is also true.

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## SKeast

HI,  If you are interested in working in the MLM industry we have a new opportunity with a company called ...

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## Dave A

After reviewing the entire contents of this thread, I believe it a disservice to allow the hijack attempts trying to draw attention to new MLM programs to continue (only two so far, but they're effectively off-topic). I have accordingly moved them to a more appropriate thread.

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## abbacount

Hi Dave,
I have joined AMWAY and NETWORK 21 due to the fact that the person introducing the system to me and my wife were very convincing. We have now progressed to the "Leadersclub" status and are involved in trying to grow our business seeing that we are an "IBO"(Independent Business Owner). The only thing that gets to me is the number of meeting sthat one has to attend. Every quarter they have a weekend seminar which costs R750 per person. Mostly they have individuals being paraded rendering testimonials on how they have changed their lives and are financially independent. There is various other meetings that you have to attend which cost ranges from R20 - R800 which i am now finding to be exorbitant. Also one has to buy motivational books from Network 21 but i have found the same book R 55 cheaper at the CNA. I would like to ask the other members who have been involved in this particular MLM business to share their experiences with me!

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## Dave A

*bump* (just moved the above post to this thread)

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## Zaxisus

> Hi Dave,
> I have joined AMWAY and NETWORK 21 due to the fact that the person introducing the system to me and my wife were very convincing. We have now progressed to the "Leadersclub" status and are involved in trying to grow our business seeing that we are an "IBO"(Independent Business Owner). The only thing that gets to me is the number of meeting sthat one has to attend. Every quarter they have a weekend seminar which costs R750 per person. Mostly they have individuals being paraded rendering testimonials on how they have changed their lives and are financially independent. There is various other meetings that you have to attend which cost ranges from R20 - R800 which i am now finding to be exorbitant. Also one has to buy motivational books from Network 21 but i have found the same book R 55 cheaper at the CNA. I would like to ask the other members who have been involved in this particular MLM business to share their experiences with me!


And this is exactly the reason i got out...  Ended up costing me way more than i was "earning"... :Whistling:

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## Dave A

> Also one has to buy motivational books from Network 21 but i have found the same book R 55 cheaper at the CNA.


Although N21 charges a flat monthly rate, I think you'll find the retail value of each book will vary from month to month. So it's hard to judge "fair value" based on a single book.

If you can get hold of a list of what books have been going out over the last 6 or 12 months, that would probably give a better benchmark.

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## Blurock

> And this is exactly the reason i got out...  Ended up costing me way more than i was "earning"...


This is also why I never signed up. The Ra-ra motivational talks, attending meetings and add-ons did not appeal to me. Quite hilarious to sit at the back and see all the nodding heads in confirmation of the speaker doing his motivational bit.   :Yes:  :Bananadance:

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## SKeast

Hi Guys have you heard of ... *thread hijack removed*

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## abbacount

Must admit the story line is quite similar to all the Amway gurus stories. Only difference is that you do not need to hunt people down!

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## HopeOnline

Zaxisus, I have tried Amway, Mannatech and some other MLM companies but they didn't work for me. Since you're in the IT industry... check this out:

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## SKeast

HI Everyone,  Have you guys heard of ...

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## Dave A

The next hijack advert post in this thread is going to result in a permanent ban.

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Blurock (05-Aug-12)

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## anghel132

HEY. Have you guys heard of.... Dave A? I hear he's an awesome chap! 

:P Seriously though:

A good friend of mine invited me to a club/hotel saying "I've got something planned for you". I thought I was going to be 'thoroughly entertained' and or 'get lucky' money/sports/ladeez-wise. All I got was "you are going to be amazed" and then got talked AT for a few hours - I like what I'm doing now. Sure I'd love the extra cash but I do reckon and my partner believes that should I spend that much time in my actual business I'll be just as successful if not more. 

It kind of irks me the way everyone acts... it's kind of like.. the song "Hello" from the musical "Book of Mormon". (Reference video:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ekwiXQDdhSk) but instead of them coming to your door, you're walking into a room full of them. Approved dialogue. Approved DIAGRAMS (a few people had been captured and sat down being talked at and drawn at with diagrams and such...). 

Parts of the night DEFINITELY got my back up, and hackles raised - I mean sure maybe they had the best intentions but the arrogance of some of the people I spoke to. On the way out, my 'friend/referrers' sister blasted me for 20 minutes then pulled out the registration form (Aha I think not). To which I just stood up, politely said I will not sign anything 'on the night' and moved on. As we were leaving friend/refererr said goodbye to their team leader (imposing guy) I said I'd like to get into contact with them (certainly NOT the other way around) and I'll make an appointment or ask my friend to which he said something along the lines "Oh you must respect [name] her time is very important] AS IF I CAN'T CONTACT A FRIEND I'VE KNOWN LONGER THAN MOST OF THE PEOPLE IN THE ROOM HAVE KNOWN HER COMBINED - and then went on to say "If you want to contact me, before next Tuesday because I'm going to Japan". WTFEver. 

Do I sound perhaps bitter, proud and angry? Yes I'd say that. I've been in an MLM before, whole family joined up one in the Philippines back when we were there for a while. It didn't work out (putting it mildly). So group me with the millions who are skeptics by prior experience.

Lastly, I'm a photographer. If I had a chance to quick my day 9-5 day job and go to photography knowing I'd earn money, I'd happily work 9 to 12 on it. So, I'm not sure I see the point of joining Amway when it's not what I want to do. They even said just join up, get an ID and let the income flow as people beneath you do all the work?

You guys who have been there: especially O.P. what do you guys say?

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Dave A (28-Nov-12)

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## Dave A

That Youtube link is ridiculously appropriate  :Smile:   :Wave: 

 :Rofl: 

Yep - Anyone can do it but it's not for everyone.




> Sure I'd love the extra cash but I do reckon and my partner believes that should I spend that much time in my actual business I'll be just as successful if not more.


Ultimately that's why I packed it in. It was quite an experience though.

----------

