# Social Category > South African Politics Forum >  Xenophobic Attacks in South Africa

## Donmeca

Well, I don't know if I am in the right forum (as I believe this should go to Politics).

I however came here to understand how educated South African youths feel about the current wave of attacks on other African immigrants in your townships and cities. People are currently dying for just being foreigners in SA...not for entering SA illegally (which would have been the work of the police)!

I know this is a business/networking forum as I found the below in your about page:




> The Forum SA is primarily a South African *business* discussion forum and networking website, with a touch of *politics and life.*


These attacks are hurting:
1. *Business*: People's livelihood are being destroyed. SA will thus be viewed as a wrong biz destination by speculators
2. *National/International Politics*: Opposition elements will surely make Prez Zuma's life miserable while this lasts. The International community may one day ask serious questions of the SA govt. Retaliation is also a possibility.
3. Life: Many African brothers and sisters are dying everyday...lives are being lost and we need to talk about it.

I have folks in SA and I am worried about their wellbeing. So I have been thinking about**: 

1. the causes of these attacks?
2. what could be done to stop the current one?
3. how do we put an end to these kinds of attacks in the future?
4. what steps do the people see the SA govt taking in all these?

Please my new friends, what's your take on this cankerworm that's trying to destroy our unity as a people.

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## Pap_sak

1. The attacks are driven by jealousy and greed - simple. Guys from outside SA - and within a fairly short time, have little thriving business. Just seem to have better work ethics and better small business brains.
2. Better policing - prosecuting guys for a start
3. I would love to say education - but you cannot educate a population that does not feel the need/ want an education in many (but not all!) cases.
4. Probably the biggest stumbling block. I heard that not a single person was prosecuted over the last spate of attacks - even when the murderers was well know. You do feel the ANC has decided that foreigners deserve to be attacked - pretty disgusting. And of course, the apartheid made me do it card also get's banded about.  

5. Welcome to the forum - nice to have a Nigerian on bored.

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adrianh (28-Apr-15)

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## Blurock

The instigators are politicians who have no sustainable policy but to entice their followers with hatred for all and everyone that do not agree with their view of the world. Poor education, poverty and greed feed these political dinosaurs who can only think of what they can gain from the situation. 

Similar situations can be found in all countries around the globe where you have a low literacy rate, resulting in poverty. Corrupt politicians exploit poor people who are dependent on handouts and charity. To keep the vote they need another "enemy" to blame and take the heat off themselves.

Generally our townships are peaceful, but as soon as the unions and politicians step in with their agendas, the trouble start.

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## adrianh

It is pure criminality. The criminals live in the moment and are happily swept up into rioting. What is the difference between 'mass action' and rioting...in South Africa none.

Locals are not only too lazy to start their own businesses they are also too full of sh1t to employ. Companies employ foreigners not because they are cheap but because they are dedicated to their own future. Locals are dedicated to the past and they feel that the world owes them.

There is a simple solution to all crime in this country namely Swift public punishment. We need to have public floggings and hangings every Satuday afternoon in the local town square. This way the entire community can get to see what happens when you break the law. 3rd world punishment for 3rd world people.

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## Dave A

Looking at the Baltimore riots, it seems it just takes a spark for good sense to fly out the window when there are already underlying tensions in place.

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## adrianh

Monkey see, monkey do...

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## Donmeca

From the responses here, I see that the problem revolves around survival. People feel that their being South Africans should ensure they have jobs to feed themselves and their families and as such refuse to bend down to menial jobs or petty biz.

These people also seem to be uneducated or not adequately educated for bluechip jobs. So they vent their frustration on these foreigners who after a few years seem to have broken even and living above board...with the accusation that foreigners occupy their job/empowerment space.

Doesn't look good as these form the majority of youths...

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## Pap_sak

I remember speaking to a guy living in a township - asked him if he want a couple of spare fruit trees to plant around his RDP house. He said as soon as it got to fruit bearing height, someone would break them down. At some point, I hope these guys start to realise it not white or foreigners holding them back - it's often their families and communities - and it needs to change. Ubuntu - ja, pull the other one, it's got bells on it.

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Donmeca (29-Apr-15)

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## tec0

> Looking at the Baltimore riots, it seems it just takes a spark for good sense to fly out the window when there are already underlying tensions in place.


I have feeling that, riot control in America is going get very strict. According to some news groups that is. I personally think the criminal element is responsible for the looting. I am sure the majority of the group had peaceful intent in mind. But word wide in some countries mass gatherings are now being deemed illegal in its entirety because of the costs involved. 

well time will tell.


146

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## adrianh

It is said that self control is a function of mental maturity...

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## wynn

The root causes are:
Crap education.
Crap health service delivery.
Crap security, Police, Army and Intelligence.
Crap service delivery.
Crap SABC,
Crap Prosecution department,
Crap tender awarding and completion/supply, rife with corruption and nepotism.
Crap AA policy, only the connected benefit.

In a nutshell Crap Government by a Crap political party!!    :Headbutt:

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## Donmeca

> 1. The attacks are driven by jealousy and greed - simple. Guys from outside SA - and within a fairly short time, have little thriving business. Just seem to have better work ethics and better small business brains.
> 2. Better policing - prosecuting guys for a start
> 3. I would love to say education - b*ut you cannot educate a population that does not feel the need/* want an education in many (but not all!) cases.
> 4. *Probably the biggest stumbling block. I heard that not a single person was prosecuted over the last spate of attacks - even when the murderers was well know. You do feel the ANC has decided that foreigners deserve to be attacked - pretty disgusting. And of course, the apartheid made me do it card also get's banded about.* 
> 
> 5. Welcome to the forum - nice to have a Nigerian on bored.


Thanks for your response and proffered solutions. Point number 4 is quite unfortunate as making scapegoats of such criminals wud help reduce the rate of violence. The ANC and in fact, the SA govt should condemn these atrocities and live up to their responsibility of protection of lives and property of residents.

Education never ends but just like someone said these persons are d lazy lot, they may also be ashamed to back to school for formal regimented education. That opens way for adult education cum skills acquisition programmes to make artisans out of these guys and reabsorb them into the industries requiring such skills like the mining industry. They tend to blame the apartheid regime for "denying" blacks access to formal education. The current SA is only 20 years old, meaning the psychological wounds of apartheid cud still be fresh. This will at least ensure that they make enough money to send their children to school to qualify for job placements in desired good firms.

I think the govt needs to solve this from bottom up...to terminate this violent thinking within this generation because after fighting immigrant petty traders, these people will still not be satisfied with what they are getting. They may be told that the Whites are their new problem...and the hunger and directionlessness in them wud listen. The rest will be history!

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## Donmeca

> It is pure criminality. The criminals live in the moment and are happily swept up into rioting. What is the difference between 'mass action' and rioting...in South Africa none.
> 
> Locals are not only too lazy to start their own businesses they are also too full of sh1t to employ. Companies employ foreigners not because they are cheap but because they are dedicated to their own future. Locals are dedicated to the past and they feel that the world owes them.
> 
> There is a simple solution to all crime in this country namely Swift public punishment. We need to have public floggings and hangings every Satuday afternoon in the local town square. This way the entire community can get to see what happens when you break the law. 3rd world punishment for 3rd world people.


I don't know about SA and hangings but I agree with swift punishments and scapegoating. Locals carry themselves like sons-of-soil and as such shud not be found suffering to feed themselves.

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## Donmeca

Hello Blurock,

The scenario you painted is everywhere. Could be worse here in Nigeria but we just believe in competition. If a Lebanese shop is prospering in my area, be sure to see a Nigerian buying similar articles in little quantities with the aim of a bigger shops than the Lebanese.

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Blurock (29-Apr-15)

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## Donmeca

> The root causes are:
> Crap education.
> Crap health service delivery.
> Crap security, Police, Army and Intelligence.
> Crap service delivery.
> Crap SABC,
> Crap Prosecution department,
> Crap tender awarding and completion/supply, rife with corruption and nepotism.
> Crap AA policy, only the connected benefit.
> ...


 :Smile:  :Smile:  Guess I like your points (style of presentation). Can u please help with possible solutions, if different from those stated earlier.

Hope it won't be opposite of CRAP...government  :Smile:

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## sterne.law@gmail.com

Blaming education is the easy way.
Whilst not denying that the denial of eductaion opportunity was wrong and has consequences education seems very much the play the victim syndrome.
I think I have over 100 Ethiopian clients, probably 10% have between grade 10 - 12. The rest average between grade 6 and 8.
Yet 98% of them own their own businesses, 2% arrived with soem money, the rest built their way up.

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## Blurock

> From the responses here, I see that the problem revolves around survival. People feel that their being South Africans should ensure they have jobs to feed themselves and their families and as such refuse to bend down to menial jobs or petty biz.
> 
> These people also seem to be uneducated or not adequately educated for bluechip jobs. So they vent their frustration on these foreigners who after a few years seem to have broken even and living above board...with the accusation that foreigners occupy their job/empowerment space.
> 
> Doesn't look good as these form the majority of youths...


It all starts with politics and the communist/socialist way of thinking. Frog politics: put them all in a bucket. you don't need a lid because as soon as one tries to get to the top, the others will grab his hind legs and pull him down.

"You are not allowed to be better. You are one of us and should remain in your place." Collective thinking. Collective bargaining. An employer is not allowed to reward a loyal and dedicated worker. Everyone has to get the same. Quotas. Sports teams, government departments and businesses should reflect the demographics of the country in specific quantities and percentages. It is a sin to excel. Mediocrity and tokenism is being rewarded instead of achievement.

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## wynn

> Can u please help with possible solutions,


I believe that the dominant political party has to remain the ANC for traditional reasons, the majority will not vote for any one else.

However I believe that the ANC has been 'Hi-jacked' through 'Gerrymandering' branch organizations by an NEC of corrupt, nepotistic, Afro-Jingoist, morally bankrupt, backboneless individuals.
It has to be wrestled back from this cancerous tendency (that is why we refer to them as the cANCer)  and it needs to be  restored to the once proud, moral organization it used to be before South Africa can progress as it should.    :Banghead:

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## mickyeddi

Would you like it if citizens from your own country are being victimized and harassed in other nations?
There are lots of jobless south africans here in Sweden illegally and claiming social welfare, we don't set up on them and set them on fire like your lots because we are civilized people and not barbaric animals. You stated the foreigners are comitting crimes in your country, the last time I checked South Africa has one of the highest crime rates in the world with one of the highest murder rates in the world. Is it the foreigners that are comitting these crimes or your lazy people?? Is it not ironic that the white south africans that were accused of the apartheid are now the ones leading the move against Xenophobia in your country. You black south africans should be ashamed of yourselves and you are a disgrace to the black race.

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## Pap_sak

Mick - You will find most black South Afrikans are against the attacks - although some are not happy about the amount of foreigners they not going to attack them. This is the same as in many countries with large influxes of foreigners - as in the UK, Australia and many parts of Europe.

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## flaker

> Would you like it if citizens from your own country are being victimized and harassed in other nations?
> There are lots of jobless south africans here in Sweden illegally and claiming social welfare, we don't set up on them and set them on fire like your lots because we are civilized people and not barbaric animals. You stated the foreigners are comitting crimes in your country, the last time I checked South Africa has one of the highest crime rates in the world with one of the highest murder rates in the world. Is it the foreigners that are comitting these crimes or your lazy people?? Is it not ironic that the white south africans that were accused of the apartheid are now the ones leading the move against Xenophobia in your country. You black south africans should be ashamed of yourselves and you are a disgrace to the black race.


These illegal jobless South Africans claiming social welfare in your country, are they white or black? Is it proper to ask that, that is, in terms of white/black

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## Butch Hannan

Passing thought. When riots and looting happen very few of the participants are ever charged. Simple solution would be to load the water cannons that the police use with a permanent dye. this could be a wonderful hideous fluorescent green. They would glow brightly for the police to round them up and send them to a jail in the kalahari.

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## Donmeca

> Passing thought. When riots and looting happen very few of the participants are ever charged. Simple solution would be to load the water cannons that the police use with a permanent dye. this could be a wonderful hideous fluorescent green. They would glow brightly for the police to round them up and send them to a jail in the kalahari.


Funny but very reasonable suggestion. Hope the govt looks at it.

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## Donmeca

> Would you like it if citizens from your own country are being victimized and harassed in other nations?
> There are lots of jobless south africans here in Sweden illegally and claiming social welfare, we don't set up on them and set them on fire like your lots because we are civilized people and not barbaric animals. You stated the foreigners are comitting crimes in your country, the last time I checked South Africa has one of the highest crime rates in the world with one of the highest murder rates in the world. Is it the foreigners that are comitting these crimes or your lazy people?? Is it not ironic that the white south africans that were accused of the apartheid are now the ones leading the move against Xenophobia in your country. You black south africans should be ashamed of yourselves and you are a disgrace to the black race.


Hello Micky,

Your words are understably strong in condemning the myopic views of those assailants who may represent a tiny minority of SAns yet cannot be prosecuted by the authorities...leaving one to think that the govt and/or traditional leaders are tacitly in support of the ethnic cleansing going on in SA suburbs. However, having read some threads here, I feel that majority of the people on this forum are White SAns. This could be linked to them (Whites) being the economic powerhouse in that country (Blacks still claim they were not allowed to go to school up until as recent as the end of apartheid). 

I'm still trying to see websites in which to relate to majority Black SAns...as they seem to carry so much bitterness and "system-induced" laziness. They may be honest enough to tell what their real grieviances are.

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## Donmeca

> It all starts with politics and the communist/socialist way of thinking. Frog politics: put them all in a bucket. you don't need a lid because as soon as one tries to get to the top, the others will grab his hind legs and pull him down.
> 
> "You are not allowed to be better. You are one of us and should remain in your place." Collective thinking. Collective bargaining. An employer is not allowed to reward a loyal and dedicated worker. Everyone has to get the same. Quotas. Sports teams, government departments and businesses should reflect the demographics of the country in specific quantities and percentages. It is a sin to excel. Mediocrity and tokenism is being rewarded instead of achievement.


I smell Communism...We prosper together and fail together...

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## Donmeca

> I believe that the dominant political party has to remain the ANC for traditional reasons, the majority will not vote for any one else.
> 
> However I believe that the ANC has been 'Hi-jacked' through 'Gerrymandering' branch organizations by an NEC of corrupt, nepotistic, Afro-Jingoist, morally bankrupt, backboneless individuals.
> It has to be wrestled back from this cancerous tendency (that is why we refer to them as the cANCer)  and it needs to be  restored to the once proud, moral organization it used to be before South Africa can progress as it should.


Your solution is of top politics...not even welfarist as at now but political structural changes.

Sorry I don't know much about ANC's internal politics but does your solution incorporate economic restructuring as advocated by Malema and his EFF?

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## Donmeca

I thank everyone for the content in the responses received on this thread. The maturity is commendable.

Seeing that majority of the responses here blame the "lazy, illiterate yet expectant" Blacks for unwillingness to start small and hence the violence, I wish to ask the ff questions.

1. How do you view the ownership of the SA economy? Paraphrased; what is your assessment of the distribution of wealth in South Africa?
2. Can the above economic scenario breed resentment, frustration, crime and xenophobic violence?

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## vieome

> Seeing that majority of the responses here blame the "lazy, illiterate yet expectant" Blacks for unwillingness to start small and hence the violence.


 Is that a fact or your opinion?






> 1. How do you view the ownership of the SA economy? Paraphrased; what is your assessment of the distribution of wealth in South Africa?


Are you looking for a color?




> 2. Can the above economic scenario breed resentment, frustration, crime and xenophobic violence?


What economic scenario do you see?




> I thank everyone for the content in the responses received on this thread. The maturity is commendable.


LAW 40 - Despise the Free Lunch 

The world over, there are rich people(minority) and poor people(majority). Sometimes the poor masses like locust rubbing knees in the feild can swarm into a riot, sometimes it it the rich minority rubbing the poors knees to bring them to swarm, as part of some game, to satisfy some ones play for power.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gustave_Le_Bon

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## Donmeca

> Is that a fact or your opinion?


Just my humble opinion as gathered from my understanding of the comments.




> Are you looking for a color?


No, except it is absolutely necessary. Here in Nigeria, our wealth is skewed towards less than 1% of the people.





> What economic scenario do you see?


Was supposed to come from 1 above, which you did not answer...so, I see none!






> LAW 40 - Despise the Free Lunch 
> 
> The world over, there are rich people(minority) and poor people(majority). Sometimes the poor masses like locust rubbing knees in the feild can swarm into a riot, sometimes it it the rich minority rubbing the poors knees to bring them to swarm, as part of some game, to satisfy some ones play for power.
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gustave_Le_Bon


Thanks. I am a fan of Robert Greene. It's the same everywhere...just that the SA experience seems to be wrongly channelled.

Regards.

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## wynn

> Sorry I don't know much about ANC's internal politics but does your solution incorporate economic restructuring as advocated by Malema and his EFF?


The original ANC manifesto/freedom charter is really a socialist dream, see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freedom_Charter

The reality is that the ANC is trying to cut a preexisting economic pie into more and more slices instead of growing the pie.

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## Dave A

> Here in Nigeria, our wealth is skewed towards less than 1% of the people.


What is the demographic profile of that 1%, Donmeca?

And what is their strategic advantage that has led to this economic dominance?

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## Blurock

> I smell Communism...We prosper together and fail together...


Exactly. You only need to look at the labour movement where the communists have an unproportional influence. There is not one country on the world where communism has led to an improvement of standards or living conditions. A balance between raw capitalism and socialism appears to be the best solution. An example is the Nordic countries (Norway & Sweden) where the wage gap is much smaller than in the rest of the world. A CEO would for example earn only 3 - 4 times more than a worker, compared to 10 - 20 times in other parts of the world. But then their workers are highly skilled and much, much more productive.

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## Phil Cooper

I think that a LOT of the Xenophobia is actually criminally based. THey want to steal because they have no food, etc., - but if a Zulu steals from a Xhosa (or vice versa, etc.), the other members of the "attackee's" tribe will support him and all hell will break loose.

Go for the foreigners - they have litte, or no, support.

Schooling was restricted until end of Apartheid?  Who is currently refusing to allow their OWN children to go to school as a protest against poor roads in the area? Why do around 30% - 35% or more of children who start out in Grade 1 drop out by Grade 12 - Matric?

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Donmeca (12-May-15)

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## Donmeca

> What is the *demographic profile* of that 1%, Donmeca?
> 
> And what is their strategic advantage that has led to this economic dominance?



If I get your drift, please note that Nigeria has about 170m human beings (1% is about 1.7m persons) They owners of the economy are even less than this figure. We are lucky here that our differences are not colour-based. We are all black but our divisions are ethnic-based...tribal. In answering you, these people are spread across the ethnic nationalities in Nigeria but they all also belong to the political ruling class. They become kingmakers...setting up govts who in turn help make policies to favour the kingmakers and give them inflated contracts without following due process.

On strategic advantage: Many start well and small and some are still quite honest and good at discovering opportunities and taking them. Others and most, rely on govt policies and tend to have exclusiveness in contracts they sign in before investing in any sector. MONOPOLY fills their pockets. 

Multichoice is in Nigeria and is the only one allowed to air the EPL, CNN and co in Nigeria...the monopoly allows them to inflate DSTV rates and to insist on not implementing pay-per-view services. That's the Nigerian situation.

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Dave A (12-May-15)

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## IanF

Donmeca Dstv is just about as bad here,
"the monopoly allows them to inflate DSTV rates and to insist on not implementing pay-per-view services. That's the Nigerian situation."
and the SA situation. I have dropped dstv and watch netflix.
There are other satellite operators but are not highly recommended.

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## Pap_sak

> If I get your drift, please note that Nigeria has about 170m human beings (1% is about 1.7m persons) They owners of the economy are even less than this figure. We are lucky here that our differences are not colour-based. We are all black but our divisions are ethnic-based...tribal. In answering you, these people are spread across the ethnic nationalities in Nigeria but they all also belong to the political ruling class. They become kingmakers...setting up govts who in turn help make policies to favour the kingmakers and give them inflated contracts without following due process.
> 
> On strategic advantage: Many start well and small and some are still quite honest and good at discovering opportunities and taking them. Others and most, rely on govt policies and tend to have exclusiveness in contracts they sign in before investing in any sector. MONOPOLY fills their pockets. 
> 
> Multichoice is in Nigeria and is the only one allowed to air the EPL, CNN and co in Nigeria...the monopoly allows them to inflate DSTV rates and to insist on not implementing pay-per-view services. That's the Nigerian situation.


Actually I find DSTV also fairly racist (to be fair, just making as much money as possible) - but for MY agenda, I'll call them racist. Football lovers just need to buy the Compact package - around R300 - to watch football. Rugby lovers need to buy the Premium package - R700, to watch a bit of rugby. 

Thank goodness for unlimited ADSL - and of course, bought a few NPN shares. Companies that I find are utter bastards are often good at making money - MTN and VOD also come to mind.

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## cyppokagain

No idea what DSTV (digital satelite tv?) is to be honest. In US there is a big cultural divide north/south and gun control issues are different as well.

NYC is probably 50%+ immigrant if you count 2nd generation it probably goes far far far higher.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/1...n_4475197.html
http://quickfacts.census.gov/qfd/states/36/3651000.html
I know it says 37% on the census but I do not think it is accurate.

Most of the time I think things happen because of a have and have not mentality. Some people are find doing without but a lot of times things occur because of opportunity and the ideological pressure here driving people for consumer items glorification it is like social engineering with people measuring what kind of sneakers they have vis a vis each other in school. I think it gets a bit wittled down later in life.

lately I spent a lot more reading about Ukraine/Russia and whatnot. I think the investment climate in SA is basically dead until they reverse policies in regards to equal treatment under the law, or exempt investors from certain countries *ahem*. The problem I think from a social point of view will be how to come to grips with reversing the policies and re-assuring the investors that they won't change 5 years hence and they get skrwd. 
http://www.fin24.com/Economy/Phosa-s...olicy-20150918
the realization they are coming around to is that once commodity operating revenues fall below a certain threshold no amount of sharing or caring matters, what does matter is return on capital and that won't come unless that is meaningful enough to recoup itself in a very short time frame say 2-3 years. However this is all about projects that could be restarted or done with capital without going from scratch.

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