# Regulatory Compliance Category > BEE and Employment Equity Forum >  The BEE issue

## Fanie

I've briefly read a few posts regarding BEE and the trend seems mostly the same.

I'm not BEE, not interested in it, won't register to become BEE either, I've been pestered with it, threatened and probably lost some work because of it.

Bottom line is I spent years to have what I have, no government paid for what I know and the skills I have.  I did it, me alone.

So will someone please explain to me who the hell gives this government the right to tell me I must give away even part of what I have worked to have while others were not prepared to do anything !

Surely after 17 years in power under the free ANC government where black people were favoured and had access to education there has to be these aspirant black entropeneurs brimming with skills and potentials who is going to flood the market with business.  Where are they !!!!

One problem I see is that most people think they are forced to become BEE.  How can any one force this.  If nobody became BEE then where would BEE be now.  Non existant.  You cannot lose business if you are the source.

We have been experiencing HUGE problems with poor supplying from BEE companies.  Something that has taken a week to manufacture in the 'old' SA now takes two months.

Just today I had a talk with yet another company manager.  The semi literate answers the phone, firstly unprofessionally, then when you respond in Afrikaans you get put through from one person to the next never to reach where you want to be.  Or they just put you on hold.  This is terrorism of the business and discriminating against me, and I have been experiencing it quite a few times, the business owner unaware of it.

Well this is the thing that BEE does, it puts illiterate and uncapable people in positions they should not be in.  If you think about it, it must be VERY humiliating for a person to be forced to do a job they cannot do !

Ok I'm on a tangent again (usually does)

The point is, if BEE creates such a big problem, why not just dump it and live without it.  Nothing prevents you from employing capable black people if they are right for the job, you just don't have to employ or put up with uncapable and illiterate workers any more.  I cannot understang why you would give your power to someone else.

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## KimH

Hi Fanie,

I can understand and probably relate to a number of the points that you have made in your post, however BEE is unfortunately a fact of business life in SA and rather than raging against the machine perhaps consider using it to your advantage.

The Company I work for had no choice but to become BEE compliant and we have just been through our annual review.  What I would like to do is give you a better understanding of how the scoring works - please bear in mind that ours is a Small Enterprise (turnover over 5 million but under 35 million per annum).

There are 7 Elected Elements of which you need to choose 4 - the options are:

1. Ownership
2. Management & Control
3. Employment Equity
4. Skills Development
5. Procurement
6. Enterprise Development
7. Socio-Economic Development

Your first concern is 'giving away what you have worked so hard to build':

Our elected elements are 3;4;5;7 - therefore the ownership and major controls within our business remain unchanged from when the 2 owners set up this business 14 years ago.  

Your additional concerns are the quality of staff and poor work output:

I think it is unfair for anyone to assume that all 'black' people are incapable and illiterate - there is also no law that prevents a business owner from applying careful recruitment and selection processes to ensure the right person is hired the first time.  Furthermore training and development of staff bear it's own benefits as well.  

When dealing with unhelpful employees at other companies, exercise your right to complain - business owners need to be made aware that their service, delivery, etc is not up to spec.

A last thought - Embrace and give change a chance, find the opportunity and turn the negative to your advantage.

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BusFact (31-Mar-11), Dave A (31-Mar-11)

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## BusFact

Fanie, I have had (and sometimes still do have) the same feelings and views as you have expressed. However KimH has given a most sensible reply.

You are free to ignore BEE in your business. You will lose some customers, but should ultimately survive if you run a good operation.

I have decided to simply think of it as a form of tax that one has to pay for doing business in SA. I have to pay a few grand each year for the verification and maybe have to do some admin around it. Just like VAT, PAYE, UIF, Income tax, SDL, COID, company audit and trying to sort out municipal account stuff ups.

However I don't have to give any company control away. As KimH has mentioned, we simply choose sections that don't involve company control. If your turnover is under R5million, you don't even have to choose, you are already sorted.

I even have to admit it may give me some positive results. Its made me look at what they want to evaluate and one section for example is training. This is something my staff should be doing anyway, but now its given me some  focus by forcing me to look at it and stop procrastinating.

I don't think you can blame bad service on BEE. Any half decent company will train their frontline staff properly irrespective if they were employed to satisfy BEE requirements or not.

However you look at it, BEE is just not worthing getting stressed over unless your whole business involves government tenders and each point is critical. You have more important and influential things to worry about.

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KimH (31-Mar-11)

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## sterne.law@gmail.com

BBBEE will law will always cause debate. 
A few things to clear up -
Nothing forces you to comply - unless you are a government agency. 
To say that the government has had 17 years to balance things out is some what harsh. Group Areas act was not the first and the only piece of legislation that discriminated. Legislation dates back to 1810 and some of it makes the Group Areas Act seem "nice" So to expect 200 years of wrong to be corrected in 17 is non sensical. By the same token it does not mean we should wait 200 years!!!!!!!
There is *no COMPULSORY* element of BBBEE that says you must have *Black ownership*!!! You can score your points through other stuff, in fact a company should get at least 65% without hassle. Black ownership was/is the shortcut method and probably the biggest fault with the "system". It was for this reason that BEE was changed to BBBEE - to move away from top down to bottom up approach.
It is this top down approach that leads to incapable people being in middle, senior and executive positions, which in turn leads to resentment and also means that those that are capable are cast in the same pot, some what unfairly.
Company' s that have and are adopting the bottom up approach, that is spend time and money on the training, perhaps bursaries(which score spoints on social side) may not benefit as quickly but build a more solid and stable work environment that is sustainable.
BBBEE is probably once agin an example of good intention and thought process but poor execution fueled by the quick fix mentality.

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## Dave A

I think what concerns me most about the OP is the implied connection between color and competence. The two are totally unrelated - the real connection is between training/education/experience and competence.

When I was visiting Spain, I could not speak a word of Spanish and it did make things tricky. It certainly didn't make me any less intelligent.

The OP doesn't like BEE. I don't like BEE. But as long as you frame competence levels along racial lines you're actually validating BEE's existence.

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AndyD (31-Mar-11), KimH (31-Mar-11)

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## BusFact

> But as long as you frame competence levels along racial lines you're actually validating BEE's existence.


Now thats an excellent point. Hadn't thought of it like that before.

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## Fanie

This has nothing to do with the old scapegoat 'racism' and the next that will be brought in here is the 'apartheid' excuse - (whatever that is).  Why does someone always come up with the 'they are not ALL like that', the discussion isn't about what applies to each and every single one out there, but in general (same as blacks are not all bad, but neither are all whites good).

Business has very little to do with your skin colour, I have to do with them all, and I do not feel I have to discriminate against any group.

BEE is actually racist, by demanding so or so many people in a business (any and all) must be from this or that race group.  Then why are black businesses only black and why aren't they penalised for not having a majority of the other groups in there... ? although I don't know of any self started and functional black companies... enlighten me.

It sounds to me like the all black movements you get in SA and the USA - of which there are HUNDREDS, but if someone dares to start a white movement they are critisized as racists.  What's wrong with this picture ?

*The problem is people are not employed on the basis of their abilities, but on the basis to qualify for the financial advantage.*  Start by trying to phone the city council and try to locate a capable person that can handle a problem.
Phone private companies and just hear how their phones are answered.  Then try to get technical information from Philamon who is the 'expert' on the floor but hardly knows what you're talking about. (and no, not ALL of them are incompetent - but most are ! ).

*The result is a poor quality employee that does not belong in a post other than making their presence 'legal'.*You cannot expect government to function one way but the private sector has to operate another way.
Why are competent whites still laid off so blacks can take their place - mostly a lesser capable person - or our services would not be in the state they are in - you will agree with me when your power goes off for an extended period of time.

There is a reason why 8 million of the 12 million whities already left SA, and this is one of the reasons.

You all seems to forget, or is not old enough to know what it was like before this lot took over. 

If I have to make a choice between having to deal with someone I cannot fire or do away with on the basis of his ethnic status -or live with the consequenses - I'll choose the consequenses each time.  I just have to listen to the demands made on businesses by people who did nothing to it getting there to make me tatally allergic.

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## Fanie

> When I was visiting Spain, I could not speak a word of Spanish and it did make things tricky. It certainly didn't make me any less intelligent.


In SA they would have made you receptionist to qualify for BEE !  

If you are not capable of doing a job then you must not be appointed in the post.  There is a jealousy from blacks because white people have certain abilities.  Take pilots for instance, black people does not have the ability or the judgement to do professional flying.  So why MUST there be black pilots ?  Does it really matter HOW many white vs black pilots there are  - and why does it matter ?  There are many jobs that black people excell in, but I do not hear whites crying about it !




> the real connection is between training/education/experience and competence


Absolutely !  If you go into a shop to buy something, do you expect the person who is going to help you do so in a sensible way or are you content with, after wasting your time, eh eh eh eish I will cal the boss kind of thing ?

It does not matter if the guy in a post is green or blue - if he does the job best then he is in the right position.  It does not work in SA unfortunately.

I do not think the reason for BEE is to distribute work fairly, it is a one way valve only.

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## Fanie

> To say that the government has had 17 years *to balance things out* is some what harsh.


Well, the same excuses are still being used today that was used 17 years ago.  In another 17 years time we will still hear them.  Not sure what ground reform has to do with BEE.

During the 'apartheid' years black people claimed they did not have equal opportunity to become what they can become.  

Now that they have, where are those that come out of the educational system, start businesses and flourish.  17 years is more then long enough for this to happen, in fact there should have been a bunch coming out there for a few years - unless it's going to take centuries ! 

It has nothing to do with balancing things out.  There is nothing to balance out.  You take what is there and what is available and you build on that.  

This gov got a working (not perfect) infrastructure with everything in place but functional.  It is currently being screwed up well enough that we are dumped into crisis after crisis after crises.  BEE is but one of the tools to keep you buzy and keep you uncomfortable and out of what is really going on.

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## AndyD

> Phone private companies and just hear how their phones are answered.  Then try to get technical information from Philamon who is the 'expert' on the floor but hardly knows what you're talking about. (and no, not ALL of them are incompetent - but most are ! ).


The last two or three times I got rained on I was wearing my springbok rugby jersey therefore it must be my springbok rugby jersey that causes it to rain. It doesn't always rain when I wear it but I'm convinced it has an effect on the weather most of the time. 
If you can see a hole in this statement you'll understand why I see a hole in yours. Just because you had bad experiences with service assistants who were black it doesn't follow that their skin colour is the problem or even that most black service assistants are incompetent.    




> There is a jealousy from blacks because white people have certain abilities.  Take pilots for instance, black people does not have the ability or the judgement to do professional flying.


This sounds to me like you're claiming black people are biologically inferior and you're also suggesting that they know it and harbour ill feelings against white people because of it. I'm at least going to ask you to come up with some credible evidence to back up your opinion. In fact it would be great if you could show some evidence for these next two statements as well please.



> Why are competent whites still laid off so blacks can take their place - mostly a lesser capable person





> There is a reason why 8 million of the 12 million whities already left SA, and this is one of the reasons.

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## Fanie

> There are 7 Elected Elements of which you need to choose 4 - the options are:
> 
> 1. Ownership
> 2. Management & Control
> 3. Employment Equity
> 4. Skills Development
> 5. Procurement
> 6. Enterprise Development
> 7. Socio-Economic Development


Kim, I don't know what position you have in your company, but let me explain it perhaps in another way.
What you have in your home is something that you and your husband/wife gathered over some time.  It is your's and you worked to have what you have, right ?

Now - an outsider of a different ethnic group is going to move into your house and expects any of the four points on your list to be enforced in his favour - or your accounts double the end of the month.  No come on, think about if for a minute.  Apply BEE inside your home and see if you are staying or moving.

In a business that you don't own or where you did not spend your own blood sweat and tears to get where it is today it is easy to 'give away'.  Most of the big business guys doesn't care as long as het gets more contracts and makes more money, but there are those that is proud of their humble 'achivement', for what it's woth any way.

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## tec0

Fanie ->  :Wave:  I have lost more companies that I care to remember, what I personally know is with a "partner" that has no real interest in your company is that they close down and liquidate and normally one is left with nothing. That was my first and last experience with this system.   

Yes family took over a few of my ventures and yes it was steered to the ground but again I am an easy soft person so... In my life I have made about 3 people very rich and was rewarded with a notice because I was considered a threat. I fired myself on a few occasions.

I even worked for free for one of South Africas largest companies in hope of employment and I was forfeited due to my pigmentation. I have paid for studies very expensive studies got good qualifications based on the national qualifications framework or NQF I stand to be corrected and had contract work for a view months then the policies changed and I basically lost what little I had left. 

Now I am a degenerate gambler, my health is a joke and I am trying to get my new business going as my old one is indeed facing a slow execution as I cannot compete against large corporations and there low prices and good standing with the system

Slowly everything is slipping away, it like trying to hang onto hot water. In the end I find that things are just close to impossible.   

So just be happy you have what you have. And try to hang on to it responsibly 

Dont get mad get educated,  :Big Grin:  there is so much we dont know and maybe, just maybe you will stumble onto a brilliant way to deal with problems and then set an example for others to follow. 

 :Rockon:

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## Fanie

> The last two or three times I got rained on I was wearing my springbok rugby jersey therefore it must be my springbok rugby jersey that causes it to rain. It doesn't always rain when I wear it but I'm convinced it has an effect on the weather most of the time. 
> If you can see a hole in this statement you'll understand why I see a hole in yours. Just because you had bad experiences with service assistants who were black it doesn't follow that their skin colour is the problem or even that most black service assistants are incompetent.    
> 
> 
> 
> This sounds to me like you're claiming black people are biologically inferior and you're also suggesting that they know it and harbour ill feelings against white people because of it. I'm at least going to ask you to come up with some credible evidence to back up your opinion. In fact it would be great if you could show some evidence for these next two statements as well please.


How did biology get into this ?  I'm not claiming black people are inferior in any way - but they are under developed to perform in posts they are employed in as a preference to white people.  It is the same as expecting YOU to be able to do what I do, you cannot, but you still get put into such a post whether you can or not.

Let me give you some credible evidence - 

The government has GIVEN hundreds of farms to black farmers to date.  It was on Tv a little while ago that the last three is now also on the edge of bancrupsy.  The minister was showed very upset wondering why a brand new tractor was sold for R 15 000 by the 'farmer', animals dying of thirst.  Not a single farm was sucsessfull.   All these farmers had the same excuse 'No but the gaverment did not give us money to farm'.

Do you have any idea what white farmers came home to after the war ?  Nothing !  Their houses were burnt to the ground.  There was no live stock alive, whatever they had was destroyed.  How come these people stood back up without government help, without disater funds, without any money and without any posessions !  

If they WERE THE SAME they would have sat in a straw or muddy leanto waiting for something to happen to enhance the conditions.

 You have to think about a few things to realise there are differences between different races in SA.  Also the quicker you begin to realise that all people are not equal the sooner you will realise we have all different abilities.  You cannot force someone to have the same abilities that someone else has, and this is what BEE does !

The redicule of the situation in SA is that around 3500 farmers were murdered to date.  Do you know what 3500 people in a place looks like ?  You claim you are a rugby fan, how does 3500 people in a group look like !  The government did squat to date to protect the food source of our country (never mind the persons) with the result that we have gone from exporters of produce to importers.  No farmer no food.  

This is the same as you woking where you do but now you have to pay the boss to be able to work there.  In my opinion no government with any kind of integrity would stand for something like this.  Don't tell me we are the same - a different government would firstly protect the assets of the country then worry about what they can gain personally !

Whe I was doing military service I remember, if a farmer had drought troubles the army brought water and feed for the animals because that farmer is our bread and butter (in case you don't know where it comes from).  This non thinking government doesn't think so.

How many examples do you need !  South Africa is not in a recession for the same reason the rest of the world is !  We should not be in a recession at all - in fact, South Africa should be cashing in on the rest of the world !

Here, look at this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZuEc-nFULY8
White and black people do not think alike.  Sorry, blame God, perhaps his sense of humour.

My opinion - (similar as HF Verwoerd said many years ago).  I say the few whites in the country cannot run and maintain the whole country.  Black people has to become educated and litterated and skilled so that we as a country can build and flourish.  And BEE is not helping - it's ruining.

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## tec0

Right, just one tiny little question... how are labour brokers not exploiting minorities? You make a wonderful argument but the truth is, I remember some stupid idea of people working together. It was a first attempt of a “Volks Staat” and do you know what happened? 

Well white people exploited other white people to a degree where it resembled slavery. The rich and powerful gave the “workers” so little that they couldn’t live and by force they couldn’t leave.  Eventually the system broke down “yes there were much more elements but the short of it is; not everything is everyone’s fault. 

Remember this “if” South Africa fails we "all of us!!!" fail with it...

Being brash about it, is not helping...

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## Fanie

Hi Tec0, 

Sorry about your misfortunes.  
I may not be able to help much, except maybe with a message !

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## Fanie

> Right, just one tiny little question... how are labour brokers not exploiting minorities? You make a wonderful argument but the truth is, I remember some stupid idea of people working together. It was a first attempt of a “Volks Staat” and do you know what happened? 
> 
> Well white people exploited other white people to a degree where it resembled slavery. The rich and powerful gave the “workers” so little that they couldn’t live and by force they couldn’t leave.  Eventually the system broke down “yes there were much more elements but the short of it is; not everything is everyone’s fault. 
> 
> Remember this “if” South Africa fails we "all of us!!!" fail with it...
> 
> Being brash about it, is not helping...


The 'volstaat' you refer to is probably what is known today as 'Orania' ?
As I have it that is where whites are enslaving whites.
I didn't know there was even a system, but I'm sure any one working there has the right to leave any time they want.  It may not the highest flyer on the block, but at least it's a bit of a home to some less fortunate people.

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## Fanie

> When dealing with unhelpful employees at other companies, exercise your right to complain - business owners need to be made aware that their service, delivery, etc is not up to spec.
> 
> A last thought - Embrace and give change a chance, find the opportunity and turn the negative to your advantage.


In some cases the complaining helps.  The one co said they have sent the person for training to answer a phone on a course for three times already.  They fired her eventually - and the problem was not that she couldn't do the job.  I had a brief conversation with her when I was there.  She was just terrorising the co by putting customers on hold indeffenate, or just say they are not available, doesn't give messages etc etc .

As for giving change a chance -

We did, when this gov came to power I though hey, people are hungry to improve on the old crappy national party, any change will be an improvement.  This was however not the case.

I cannot think of anything that wasn't disfunctional ever since the anc came to power.  Nothing gets built up.  The gov is so insecure that they even change town and province names and SA had to get the ANC flag.  You cannot for ever keep on blaming the same old problems from the past over and over again - at some stage you have to take responsibility for the wrongs and begin to set things right.  This however is never going to happen under this government.

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## tec0

> The 'volstaat' you refer to is probably what is known today as 'Orania' ?
> As I have it that is where whites are enslaving whites.
> I didn't know there was even a system, but I'm sure any one working there has the right to leave any time they want.  It may not the highest flyer on the block, but at least it's a bit of a home to some less fortunate people.


Actually it was long before the times of now. Well the short of it was that some mentalities wanted to be free from the ruling party back in what most 90 year olds will call the great depression. It wasnt fun times but there were no majorities calling the shots back in those days. Nope people worked for nearly nothing and then the 
"supper rich" decided ok that they will employ anyone willing to work on their farms. 

At first it seemed like a good plan BUT soon people got paid little to no money and others had to grateful because they had something When the people started to leave the farms to work at the local factories it was then where some but not all was hold back by force. Eventually the government of that time took control and matters where resolved.

The point I am making is that corruption is a mind set, money is colour-blind and there will always be some people that get the short end of everything. So I say get educated and deal with the situation intelligently. Solutions have the tendency to present itself it is just timing...    

With a proper mindset and education one will identify this solution and make it work. 

On a personal note, Giving up is not part of my programming.

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## KimH

> Kim, I don't know what position you have in your company, but let me explain it perhaps in another way.
> What you have in your home is something that you and your husband/wife gathered over some time.  It is your's and you worked to have what you have, right ?
> 
> Now - an outsider of a different ethnic group is going to move into your house and expects any of the four points on your list to be enforced in his favour - or your accounts double the end of the month.  No come on, think about if for a minute.  Apply BEE inside your home and see if you are staying or moving.
> 
> In a business that you don't own or where you did not spend your own blood sweat and tears to get where it is today it is easy to 'give away'.  Most of the big business guys doesn't care as long as het gets more contracts and makes more money, but there are those that is proud of their humble 'achivement', for what it's woth any way.


Fanie, you still appear to be missing the point, please allow me to clarify, as with most things in our lives that befall us, we have no control over them, however, what we do have control over, is how we respond to these things. 

Put another way: Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, Courage to change the things I can, And wisdom to know the difference.

Or even another way: Life gave me lemons,..so I made Lemonade, the point being that this is not about the government, other ethnic groups or even BBBEE, its about you/your business, and how you take on the challenge and either overcome or compromise.

Just for the record, I would react to any group, (be they of the same ethnic group or not, to myself, not even sure why that matters), moving into my house, the same way as I would my business dealings:  Attack, attack, adapt, overcome, (With the emphasis being on that attack relates to attacking the problem, not the person. Adapt could mean my attitude, my strategy, or my viewpoint, and overcome means resolving an issue to an acceptable outcome, I dont have to like this outcome, I just have to be able to live and work with it.

Seeing as how I have already abused clichés, a few more of relevance wont really matter: Adapt or die, Principles are great, they just dont pay the rent or put food on the table

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roryf (08-Apr-11)

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## Martinco

> I cannot think of anything that wasn't disfunctional ever since the anc came to power.  Nothing gets built up.  The gov is so insecure that they even change town and province names and SA had to get the ANC flag.  You cannot for ever keep on blaming the same old problems from the past over and over again - at some stage you have to take responsibility for the wrongs and begin to set things right.  This however is never going to happen under this government.


Hear Hear ! 

 ( We have not had refuse removal for 2 weeks now.  " The truck she is broken " )

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## Dave A

> This has nothing to do with the old scapegoat 'racism' and the next that will be brought in here is the 'apartheid' excuse


But if that's true, where does this come from:




> Then try to get technical information from Philamon who is the 'expert' on the floor but hardly knows what you're talking about. (and no, not ALL of them are incompetent - but most are ! ).


And this...




> Take pilots for instance, black people does not have the ability or the judgement to do professional flying.


 :Confused: 

You're just giving ammunition to your enemy. How does that help end the war?

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## Martinco

> Quote Originally Posted by Fanie View Post
> Take pilots for instance, black people does not have the ability or the judgement to do professional flying.


Sorry.........totally off the topic, but I simply could not resist. ( You can take some Brownie points ! )  :Embarrassment: 

Sipho, the pilot and Simon the co pilot from North African Airways come in to land at OR.

Sipho to Simon: " Hey Simon, this is the shortest runway I have ever seen, only about 30 meters long !"
Simon to Sipho: " Yes man these guys in SA are stupid, It is also the widest I have seen, must be all of 3 kms wide. "  :Wink:

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## BusFact

I too am not a fan of BEE at all, but how else would you suggest that the government resolve the following issue in current day SA:

How do you rectify the situation of a typical 40-50 year old black person in our economy? They cannot compete with whites who had a 20 year head start in education, work experience and opportunities. Even though those whites worked damn hard to get where they did, it was not a fair competition, the blacks weren't even included in the race to success. There is no easy answer, I don't think, and BEE is the best they could come up with. 

Maybe one can consider it the price you have to pay for getting that head start in life. If I had to choose between being white, with the head start and having the cost of BEE - against being black and hoping for the remote chance of a BEE placement, I know which I would choose. It wasn't fair then, its not fair now. I don't have the answers.

How long will it last? I suppose the logical target will be when all the major corporates on the JSE are 80-90% black owned. This is years away if we stay on the current path. I doubt it will go away over the next two decades at the least. In fact it will most likely become a forgotten law that stays around for many decades even well after its goals have been met. A century from now some lawyer or politician will come across it and laugh at it, in much the same way that we would coming across by laws referring to where you can park your horse on the main road.

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## BusFact

> This gov got a working (not perfect) infrastructure with everything in place but functional.  It is currently being screwed up well enough that we are dumped into crisis after crisis after crises.  BEE is but one of the tools to keep you buzy and keep you uncomfortable and out of what is really going on.


I guess the answer to this would be that it was working for 10% of the population. Now that they are trying to provide that infrastructure to everyone, its been spread too thin and problems are occuring.

I have to agree that it can be very frustrating and disheartening to watch happen, if you were part of the original 10%.

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## BusFact

> Kim, I don't know what position you have in your company, but let me explain it perhaps in another way.
> What you have in your home is something that you and your husband/wife gathered over some time.  It is your's and you worked to have what you have, right ?
> 
> Now - an outsider of a different ethnic group is going to move into your house and expects any of the four points on your list to be enforced in his favour - or your accounts double the end of the month.  No come on, think about if for a minute.  Apply BEE inside your home and see if you are staying or moving.


But this aleady happens. I have to pay rates and taxes, which is essentially used to provide for other ethnic groups, although I do get some benefit too. So I am essentially paying towards items 4, 6 and 7 education and social upliftment, assuming the taxes are spent correctly.

If I were a good citizen I would perhaps help out at a nearby charity or make some donations. I might just happen to use a black plumber / electrician / painter. I buy my groceries from Checkers and spend money with Telkom, Joburg City, local school, insurance company, security company, Standard Bank. If I live in an upmarket suburb I might employ a gardener or a maid. Each of these gives me BEE points.

Without changing my lifestyle or giving anything away, I am most probably already BEE compliant to some degree. The same goes for most businesses.

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## BusFact

> In a business that you don't own or where you did not spend your own blood sweat and tears to get where it is today it is easy to 'give away'.  Most of the big business guys doesn't care as long as het gets more contracts and makes more money, but there are those that is proud of their humble 'achivement', for what it's woth any way.


I think the point I am trying to convey is that you don't have to give anything significant or important away. You may have to pay a bit more towards social causes, but then so does your competitor so that evens things up.

Now as I have said before, I don't like BEE, mainly because of the unproductive admin around it, but have chosen to suck it up and deal with it ... all be it reluctantly. That said, I can also see the potential positives that this legislation could create if implemented well.

- Imagine if every business helped create a micro enterprise or small business (Enterprise Development). Would our economy not flourish and grow?
- Imagine if every business supported the less fortunate in their area (Socio Economic Development). Would a smaller gap between the rich and poor not reduce the incentive for crime?
- Imagine if every business set aside time to educate and train their workers. Would that not improve the overall efficiency of our economy?

I know thats pie in the sky stuff, but you can see what they are trying or hoping to do.

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roryf (08-Apr-11)

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## Justloadit

I think that we are all frustrated with BEE, and I am also strongly against it, as I see this as a handicap to actually getting the population off  their backsides, and do something to help themselves, rather than wait for the meal ticket. I believe that when you have struggled to get what you have, you tend to be more appreciative of what you have.

I think the root of the frustration is because of the greed that came in the past, where fronting was the order of the day, and how the system was abused to enrich a few only. Due to this fact, the BEE actually failed, and the government has now modified the BEE structure to prevent fronting, and allow a greater base of the population to benefit.

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## Fanie

> How do you rectify the situation of a typical 40-50 year old black person in our economy?


Have you ever thought about the amounts of money we are spending on security per household here ?  Most people pay around R400pm plus they pay to have walls, electric fences etc etc.

These could have gone towards someone's salary if we didn't have the crime fiasco here.  Instead not much is done towards crime because the government gets their cut each time you have to replace stolen goods.  Crime has become big business for the government.

The suggestion that when you replace stolen items you don't pay tax was rejected.  It's big business for gov.

The security co's only employ a few people compared to what could have been employed if there wasn't crime.

If we didn't have the crime we have it would have been much easier to employ someone less educated.  Every philamon out there however think it's his right to take what he can because he is poor.  If he gets cought he's back on the street in a day.

Nothing is perfect, and there probably will never be anything perfect.  *It is however each and every person's own responsibility to improve himself through education* except I now get blamed for them never doing the same.  Even before this government took over there were opportunities for black people to learn, go see who is in our libraries.  In my work I have to learn new things on a daily basis.  Why do others think they don't have to read and learn ?

I employ a couple of Zim boys here from time to time, young chaps.  When they got here the first time they could hardly speak English and it was difficult to understand each other.  I said to them they must read read read... it makes the difference between poor and stupid and being able to at least help yourself.  The one was here a few days ago - I asked him if they were reading and he said yes, every day.  The change is remarkable, we can actually have a conversation.

One last thing.  If someone is betweem 40 and 50, does it mean they are too old to do anything or too old to learn something ?  I don't think so.  Many people are forced to persue a less physical line of work for many reasons, you have to however skill yourself first !  I cannot educate someone else, they have to do it themselves and must be willing to do it.

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## Fanie

> I think that we are all frustrated with BEE, and I am also strongly against it, as I see this as a handicap to actually getting the population off their backsides, and do something to help themselves, rather than wait for the meal ticket. I believe that when you have struggled to get what you have, you tend to be more appreciative of what you have.


Absolutely !

We are being held responsible for making a (good) life for someone else ! and not they have to pull finger themselves to get anywhere.  It has always been easier to blame someone else for your misfortuen in life han to blame yourself for being lazy and unwilling.

When I was still working for a boss you got paid a salary they determined.  If you strike you were fired.  If you didn't like the pay or conditions, then leave.  It wasn't your business and you had no say in it - you just worked there.  If you didn't work you didn't get paid and you die of hunger and who cared.

Nowadays you get sued if you fire someone even if they were commiting a crime, they claim large sums of money for getting fired for not working or not even pitching.  You cannot fire a poor and incompetent worker, you are now saddled with this burden because you employed him !  BEE even give them rights to determine how you should run your business !  Come on man it's rediculous.  *Let them start their own business and run it their way.*  If the argument is no they cannot then how will they improve my business by getting in here !

Someone I know employed a driver.  Six months the driver disappeared.  Some 18 months later the guy pitches again - he still claims his position.  Cost the guy I know a week sitting in court for the case.  It turned out the 'driver' didn't even have a driver's license - you'd think someone applying for a driver position will have a drivers license !  The 'driver' demanded huge amounts of money and back pay for the 18 months he wasn't even there !  Rediculous ?  Well, the case was made, how many of similar succeed.  

I hear the previous big shot who was fired at the SABC got rewarded R 4 million.  I will any time make trouble in any business if I'm going to get rewarded those kinds of money.  I'll even do it weekly.  BEE gives power to the wrong people for the wrong reasons.

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## Dave A

This is like watching someone trying to put out a fire with petrol.

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tec0 (04-Apr-11)

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## Fanie

Well Dave, what you're saying is everyone should just accept any and all of these scemes government implement - doesn't matter how bad they go.  I am not aware of anything to date implimented by government that is successful in the inetrest of the country.  

Government's function is not to dictate to the private sector how it should do business.  Government knows squat about business, or mining, or farming, or electricity or technical things - or they would not be in government !  Government's sole function should be to make laws and govern the the country on behalf of and in the interest of the people - not impliment and enforce schemes to gain the vote of the masses at the business owner's expense.

If no one paid attention to BEE, we would not be sitting with it's problems now.  And no one has the answers, so logically if it doesn't work then it has to be given up.  No use insisting it HAS to work if it doesn't.  There could be other and better ways, but mostly instant gratification almost always backfires.

Refering to your post # 21




> You're just giving ammunition to your enemy. How does that help end the war?


Enemy ?  war ?

What I'm trying to say is that you cannot force someone to be something he cannot be, and this is what BEE does.

It is simple to explain.  If there wasn't a problem then black people do not need white businesses to be in business.  They even have the support of the government to get their own businesses and be successful in it. 

RIGHT ?

Wrong.  

Black people are not ready to do business on a level that make them self sustaining, that is why we are being forced to take them in.  This implicate you are forced to put people that are not ready to function on some levels to fullfill those posts !

This is the green orange that is now gettig squeezed ripe.  It still remains GREEN ! but we are the ones that has to deal with the frustrations.

The sour orange juice can now be found in our city councils - most of them are bankrupt, mismanaged, corrupt and does not perform for what they were intended to do.  I mentioned some other examples as well but it is found over the broad spectrum all over the country.

Those that does function well, great !  We need them, and there should be many more.  As I said, the 4 million whites (who do not even all have businesses) cannot maintain the country's economy - there are 49 million people in SA ! and only 4,9 million tax payers.  Does this sound like how it is supposed to be ?


Re the pilots, it has been done.  You can grab the philamon on the street corner, tell him he's now BEE rated and You can by all means let him fly you around, not me china, I stay off that plane.  Ask the training centers (there is one in Midrand I know someone there).

Re technical abilities - less than one percent of qualifying electronic students remain in the electronic environment, and usually in a non technical post like a component packer on an assembly line - statistic courtesy of a senior lector.

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## Fanie

If nobody admits there is a problem how do you think it is going to be solved.  If a drunk does not admit he has a drinking problem you cannot help him.  I didn't make the rules, it's just how it is.

Just the fact tha BEE has been implemented suggests there is a problem, it does not offer a solution though.

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## Dave A

Fanie, if you read over most of the other posts you will note that they acknowledge there is a problem with BEE. Heck, even government is issuing statements saying there is something wrong.

So far so good. Where the wheels are coming off is the supporting arguments and the proposed solutions.

Let me pick a neutral analogy to try to illustrate.

Let's say BEE is a destructive fire raging out of control.
You have one group say the fire is there because of the wood.
You have another group say the fire is there because of the oxygen.
You have another group who say the fire is so bad because of the wind that's fanning the fire.
You have another group who say the fire is there because of a lack of water.
You have yet another group who say the fire is there because someone lit the fire in the first place.

The oke who put down the wood is blaming the fire on the oke that didn't bring the water.
The oke that didn't bring the water is blaming the fire on the oke that lit the fire.
The oke who opened the door and let in the wind says he is trying to get rid of the smoke.
The oke bitching about the oxygen is being told to shut up by everyone else because after all, the oxygen has always been there and always will be there.

And even as they argue among each other, the wood guy keeps piling on more wood, the wind guy is installing fans to help clear the smoke, the water guy isn't fetching water...

And the oke who put the kettle over the fire to boil some water for his cup of tea is saying thank you very much for the fire.

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## Fanie

In AU they started implementing all kinds of licensing and laws and regulations to keep the public's minds off the problems their government had.

Sounds familiar ?  Car lisensing, drivers licenses, skippers licenses, fishing lisences, fire arm licenses, and more, all instated since under this government.  BEE is another one - seemingly to give a fair chance for the previously disagvantaged ones to get on par.  Another and correct me if I'm wrong is you cannot register a CC any more, you have to register a Co.  This makes it possible for the gov to appoint someone to under the laws of a co keep a very close eye on all your finances.

For a government that has absolutely no interest in the welfare of the country, or it's people, doesn't implimenting something like BEE (for the people) seem a bit strange ?

You have to realise the guy on the floor only sees his world, his little piece of the pie - the problems at the office, the small minded every day life problems.  That is why we bicker and argue amongst each other instead of standing together in the interest of the larger problems that is ruining our lives.  BEE is the ideal tool to do just this, while at the same time it looks like there are more tax payers - a sign that it is working and the gov gets the credit on paper.

The down side is of course it is not doing what we think it does.  It was already predicted that around 2015 we are going to have a serious shortage of skilled workers - as if the services and production isn't already poor amd slow enough.  In a local newspaper Eskom has now - aparently too late - started training a rather large group of people to maintain their equipment.  The large group is probably in the hope that some will come out capable of doing the job.  I hear of no white people qualifying for any posts, in fact they are still being replaced - and still leaving the country.

So in the end it does not matter who blames who for what that does or what does not get done, we still have the same problem - and the problem is our's and the countries !  We are the ones on the short end of the stick, government doesn't care, they get paid by us or more correctly they take whatever they want to - it is we that are getting it more and more difficult and have to get by with less.  Like I said when they come with sh1t llike you have to save by switching your car off at traffic lights when the fuel price is again going up you can for sure know there is a rotten skunk in it.

As long as the ANC is in power, this country will continue on it'd down path to national destruction.  Someone mentioned the terms and slogans thay use to justify their inabilities - same as Mugabe said when the whites left there, the 'white patriots leaving the country'.  Doesn't seem to bother the government much to see their golden gees leave.  We (you and I) have not left yet, but it may take one incident or just one push too many to see us go too.  Who knows we may even have adjacent seats on the plane !

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## tec0

Fanie ->

I see much anger written here much of that bounded to frustration I am sure, as it seems you speak of many things Fanie but you see not the harm in your words. Please don’t get me wrong but your lack of hindsight I am sure is due to your frustration. 

Understanding the nature of an event after it has happened in your case the words that is stated here, you have all but convinced the majority that your intentions may not be in there best interest. Thus undermining the equality factor as whole.

There are groups that are asking for social and economical equality, thus all of us will have the “chance” to be treated fairly. Yet all I see is a play on words stating the dynamics of thins we already know. It has been stated in the Media “news” that many feel that the elite gets too much from government and in turn we slowly can no longer afford to live in a country that we are trying to keep going. 

This may or may-not interest you but the truth is, you are carving your own headstone, I have no problem with that other then you are carving mine too. Now the words “guilty by association” may not mean much to you but know that it does happen. Your views become “my views” by association thus you incriminate me... I don’t like that at all. 

I say this because I am the bugger that must use public transport, I and many others just like me must face the brunt of your jest... And you don’t mind that at all, do you? I agree change must come I agree that our needs must echo trough the ears of parliament. I say we must be taken into consideration yes... But none must be ruled out, that is the point of equality... 

There is enough for us all, the elite is the real problem here, the faceless puppeteers. I am saying you are wrong on some of the things. I am NOT saying you are wrong on all of the problems facing all of us. 

I ask only that your mind must guide you... Lets promote equality let every person stand as equal because our intelligence allows us to do so.  

lets not do this...

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Dave A (05-Apr-11), KimH (04-Apr-11)

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## Fanie

Hello Tec0,

Lets not call it anger, because I am not an angry type of person and I don't hold grudges ( so relax ;-).  Let's call it frustration if that's ok with you.

I have spent all my life helping to build up a country to what it was some 17 years ago.  Now it may not have been as great as the yoof of today accuse us of and what they sit with, but we had to make do with what we had.  Think a bit, I was in high school when I first saw a TV, cars were rather primitive and not so many had them.  No internet, no cell phones.  But - people stood together and helped each other, I miss that.  There was very little crime, I could actually go fish without some serious losses and vandalism done to one's property.  It was livable and there was an economy and those willing to work for a life got that.

Maybe I am not thinking as many would like me to, and I am often wrong (just ask my wife), but I can say that two thirds (66%) of people that think along the lines I do, have left SA, those I still have contact with is not interested in coming back and they think I'm retarded to still hang around here.  I'm still here because there is that slim slither of hope that things will begin to make an about turn... but as you say maybe I'm thinking wrong again.  I like Africa, and I probably won't move to AU or the US or EU althoug I probably can.




> you have all but convinced the majority that your intentions may not be in there best interest.


Most people only want to hear what suits them.  The solution to a problem is not always a pleasant one.




> There are groups that are asking for social and economical equality


I saw one of the ministers expressing their concern about us not being socially involved with each other.  I am aware that it was attempted, like our fishing club tried to get one other 'group' of people involved.  It turned out we were expected to be accommodate, treat and pay for their outing each time.  They were also undependable at our expense so we decided screw them, if they can or will not do something for themselves, then so be it.  And it is still so.  

Are you having the social group over for a braai a couple of times a month ?  Who brings the meat ?  I've met some very pleasant black people, blimey some speak better Afrikaans than many of us, but socially compatable...mmmmm I dunno.  Perhaps not yet.

I don't know of any time ever there wasn't economical equality.  My dad was a bank manager with Barkey's (remember that one) and he often told me of black business people that does very well for themselves.  As far as I'm concerned they were treated as well as any other person in that circumstance.  Their money was the same and the same worth as every one else's.

Many of the people out there sit on a street corner or with a board around his neck, hoping that work will come to him.  Why don't they make it their work to find work ?  If you end up in court that's exactly what they will tell you to do.  Find a job.  There is no shortage of work, but there is a shortage of skilled workers and even more a very big shortage of people who wants to work.  No, it's much easier to ride on somone else's back and demand to get.

The other thing I wonder about is how can someone reach the age of 30, 40, 50 and cannot read properly, cannot converse properly in any one language including his own ! and have problems expressing themselvel, eh eh eh...  I say if someone is too lazy to help themselves then how the heck can they expect someone else to help them ?  I don't owe any one else a life, I have my own.  It is up to them to make their own way and educate themselves for what they can and want to achieve.  It is not my fault if someone lacks ambition and is unwilling to improve themself.

I go fish in Moz every once in a while - I don't fish in SA any more because the last 4 times we fished here we were relieved of some of our posessions, and the police were not interested.  That a difference in the people between here and Moz !  Crime is like non existent, the people are friendly, they do not harrass you and they do not sit and wait to 'get'.  That is why there was a record amount of people going on holiday there.  It is totally a different attitude.  What's wrong with here ???

BTW, last time we came back from Moz it took us 6 hours to get through customs.  The problem is not Moz, the problem is here !  They had one single hardegat official at the border post, the que of people were like 3km.  What  is wrong with SA ! good grief man, doesn't any one think any more !

Had the same thing when we went to Swaziland, rude SA officials, 50m on 'Welcome to our country'.  We have a big problem in SA.

I see many people spend YEARS AND YEARS to achieve something, only to be told by others how 'lucky' they are to have this or to have that, or have the ability to do things others does not have.  And the best of all is the critics then expect to get someone's life achievements for free.  A bit like taking all your possessions and give it to someone else.  Have you tried that or are you not emotionally ready yet ?  So why must you give away what you have achieved.

You do not help people by giving to them.  If they do not earn something for themself then that what you gave them is cheap and worthless.  And it is not sustainable.  The first world donates billions of US$ to poor Africa, and what has become of it.  Africa is as poor as it ever was, and bloody hell I don't want to spend my old age in ruins, I'll be too old for that ;-)

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## Fanie

Personally I don't care if you agree with my views or not, it seems that too many have become callous to the wrongs there are to the extent they only see and live grey.  Perhaps that is why no crime in SA is serious any more - except if you steal gov funds because then it justifies shoot to kill.  

If something is wrong then it's wrong, and if something is right then it's right.  If something is blue, then why do you want me to lie about it :-(

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## tec0

I had a clever comeback already planned and written down because I knew more or less what was going to be stated here. But I will not use it, I see no reason too. In your mind only one factor can be blamed. You dismissed all the factors like a young boy age 17 Caucasian washing cars in the car park because work is none existent. 

Education is irrelevant; I am highly qualified in my profession but when companies announced their new AA structure for 2011 I and 9 others knew that our beloved labour broker will not be calling again. SHAME ON US!!! Because we will not work for chicken feed, I had jobs where it cost me MORE to work then what I was paid. 

I do think your thinking is incompetent, manipulative and your aim is to communicate and breed hate. There is no honour here. I do think you think your words are just, but your words are used to judge us ALL of us I dont think you fully understand the shockwave yet.

Hopefully soon it will not matter. But if you would reflect your energies towards the guilty "the elite that is benefiting without restriction" and leave the innocent be, we have suffered enough.

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## Dave A

I'm just in awe of tec0 right now.

Fanie, I hope you're listening, *really* listening here.

Frustration comes from the inside...

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## Fanie

> I do think your thinking is incompetent, manipulative and your aim is to communicate and breed hate. There is no honour here. I do think you think your words are just, but your words are used to judge us “ALL of us” I don’t think you fully understand the shockwave yet.


First rule of sensible communication - play the issue at hand and not the man.  Don't accuse me of these things because you are way off, you have created a perception because I do not think you read my posts !  If you can pull your head from your butt for a minute and just stand back a few steps and look at this from an objective point of view.





> Education is irrelevant


It is ?  Well, then there should be no problems.  We should have skilled people and BEE is not a requirement.  In fact, the ANC should be voted out of parliament this election.

Education is VERY relevant.  I'm sorry to hear that despite being so highly qualified in your profession you won't be called on again - but I'm sure you will find something to do to create future income.  Unless you want to sit and wait for something to come your way ?  You could perhaps play the lotto... which is about the only hope the poor in this country have to be saved out of the mystery they live in.

'Education is irrelevant'.  I cannot believe you said that.  Education is KEY !  We have a president that made std 8.  Decisions for a what is supposed to be a first world country are made on that level.  We have a Yoof leader that didn't make std 8.  This is the person that is influencing our youth and that is the mentality our yooth is brought up with and the mentality of our future here.  First world countries seems to choose the best qualified person to do a task to set an example.  Not here, the worst seems to suffice.

The first thing students are tought at university is what are their human rights !  Not how they can make a life for themselves, not that they have to pull finger to achieve some sort of acceptable skill level.




> In your mind only one factor can be blamed.


Wrong.  There are a few factors that has to come together.  The first is education, but with poor attitude education will not come about.  There are other things too.

Unfortunately life is not this thing you achieve with one skill only.  You have to be a good husband or wife  or your marrage won't work.  You have to be good parient or your children will have poor values and character and serve as a warming to others and not an example.  You have to be good in your job to earn an income.  And if either goes bad *you need more education to get out of that deteriorating situation because without knowing the right things you will not be able to save the situation !*
I'm supposed to do electronics, right.  Right, but I quickly discovered if that is all I do I cannot survive.  Too much dependance on others who are unreliable forced me to go to the troubles to learn more skills, aquire other knowledge.  No, 4 5 C I didn't want to.  I also wanted to learn one thing once and free the rest of my live along nice and cosy on that one thing.




> Hopefully soon it will not matter. But if you would “reflect your energies” towards the guilty "the elite that is benefiting without restriction" and leave the innocent be, we have suffered enough.


If you think I have been anti-black all along, you are very mistaken.

This elite you refer to, that has aparently 'no restriction'  - in my case because I think you refer to me here - is willing - no WILLING to take responsibility for ourselves.  I work about 10 to 18 hours per day, and I spend a hell of a lot of time on research to gain enough knowledge on things.  I am also learning another language - Portuguese.  I became a welder, I design boats as a hobby, I am a radio amateur and I'm buzy with a bunch of other things.  And NOT because I have a lot of money !!!!

I have to leave now, I'll post back later - unless you feel I'm just wasting time please say so because I have lots of other things I can do.

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## GuyP

> 1. Ownership
> 2. Management & Control
> 3. Employment Equity
> 4. Skills Development
> 5. Procurement
> 6. Enterprise Development
> 7. Socio-Economic Development


Precisely KimH. 

I am now spending more time on enterprise development, socio-economic development and even determining how to reduce my carbon footprint. What I hope to give, in an involved way rather than a CSI tickbox, I find I am bound to receive on the other end by an increased ability to attract even international business because of increasingly developed 2nd and 3rd bottom lines. This may be in the way of anything from business, to international funding.

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## Fanie

I just fetched a water pump for a water filter from a place.  Getting there the guy that runs the place was not there.  I also wanted a filter, but the woman and the philamon there doesn't know ANYTHING.   Surely if you work in a place you should know something about the products ?  When I paid for the pump I gave the woman my credit card.  She asks me tjeck, saving or credit card ?  

I am buzy building a marine thingy here and use aluminium because it is lighter than other metals.  The supplier (the one left in SA) called me to say there is no stock of the standard profile I ordered and they are not going to get new stock.

Ok, so I thought maybe I can use stainless instead if I can find someone that has a workshop, maybe they can give me an idea what options there are if I go that way.  One place on my way was Noize boyz.  The first guy in there ignored me, the second was a philamon I asked if someone can help me.  He ignored me too, so I just left.

While driving in the car on the radio - Parts of JHB is without power, again.  Farmers have decreased from 150 000 to 35 000 in SA and we are now total importers of food stuff, but those emigrating to other countries is no concern !

I also see that Vodacom is going to spend 200 million on 'branding'.  We need reefs on our coast line so we can attempt to get our depleted coastal resources back up, or how about housing for the poor ?  Or how about just being a phone company and give the customers better tarrifs - they don't HAVE to be 7 times more expensive than need be :-(

WTF guys ?  How can any place exist and expect an increase in living standards - or at the very least maintain the current if things go as they do.  We are going for a ball of crap in this country weather you like it or not.  Illiterates caused the power generator near Middelburg to disintegrate by overreving it from 1050rpm to over 7000rpm.  Another such an insignificant little error could see us without power indefenately, and it's not unlikely to happen.  And you say Education is irrelevant ?  It's not even winter yet, imagine what it's going to become like when the demand increase.

I say to you - as long as we accuse and not stand together and not resolve the issues this country is destined to become poorer than other poor african countries.  You cannot stare blindly over the problems we have, they are apon us and we will have to deal with them one time or another - wether we like it or not and wether we like the sulution for it or not.

Tec0, I hope your situation gets resolved, may require some change in thinking though, but I have confidence in you to see it through.  I have been in the same situation many times, it will work out.




> Frustration comes from the inside...


Dave, that is utter nonsese.  Frustration comes from situations going wrong and every one around you is seeming happy about it.  Frustration comes when you say things others does not want to hear and the downpath continues.  Frustration comes when your customer cancels an order because the BEE companies cannot deliver in time.  Frustration comes when a tender date cannot be met because spares are not available untill further notice - and who pays.

And of course frustration comes from seeing the billions and billions getting throwed around without anything to show for it at the end of the day.

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## tec0

> If you can pull your head from your butt for a minute and just stand back a few steps and look at this from an objective point of view.





> Education is irrelevant'. I cannot believe you said that. Education is KEY !


Please don’t take my words out of context. The suggested factor was to outline how little work there really is. Secondly any person regardless of gender and race can strive towards excellence. Your views towards your own suggested truth is an attempt to mute and outline incompetence.  

Thirdly our best skilled workers started out as incompetent young men with a St4 to St6 education. My grandfather started out with only St3 back in the day, you would know because it was in your time give or take 20 years. 

*Evkom* took those young men and slowly educated them via workshops and gradual certification. Today those young men are the “greys” that keep the PowerStation’s going. The new bloods have N6 and engineering certification and they cannot compare. 

Creating opportunity is the true remedy for black economic empowerment and affirmative action. With new market opportunities demand for qualified labour goes up, and even more opportunities will exist. With more opportunities comes demand and with demand a broader healthier economical spectrum will develop, thus the need for the above mentioned will no longer be relevant. 

Politically I am not responsible for the leaders chosen. The object of choice seems to be antiquated still, that stated it is slowly changing.  As more starts to question the motives of the faceless elite benefiting from this defective structure, change will be called for.  

That said some of your blunt statement and posts has a provocative flavour. It is this type of provocation that stimulates situations that is indeed uncalled for. As I said before, I do not believe you fully appreciate the volatility of the situation nor the repercussions.

As for the Power Station that lost one of its generators, it is rumoured that it was running over 4500RPM+ they attempted to test the auto “failsafe” systems. What exactly went wrong is still under investigation. It is of note that normal RPM for such a system is 3000RPM “give or take a few” 

It is also rumoured that damages and replacement cost is well over three Billion+ Rand.

Lastly, as for my situation I am a survivor as are most South Africans.

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## Fanie

I can see this is turning into a personal debate and I don't have to hear how blunt, incompetent, provocative and other things I am.  Please keep your personal opinions to yourself.

I don't go by rumours and we know why the power station was destroyed.  Same reason a part of Jhb was without power for like 3 months, they had to hire a private contractor to repair the problem.  So many examples.

But I'm glad to hear about all the positives you mention, I'm sure we can expect an improvement coming about any time... soon ?

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## Martinco

Quote Originally Posted by KimH View Post

*1. Ownership*
2. Management & Control
3. Employment Equity
4. Skills Development
5. Procurement
6. Enterprise Development
7. Socio-Economic Development

Just to add my 2 cents worth......................
I am trying to stay in business which I have built up from NOTHING over 20 years.
The latest "requirement" at the mines is that irrespective of your BBBEE rating I MUST have black ownership of at least 26% which in a short time will be pushed up to 45%.
This is not "government policy" but they make their own rules. So even complying with BEE ( Level 2 and 126% ), I still cannot do business with them unless I put black ownership in place.
A bit frustrating and unfair don't you think ?

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## tec0

> I don't go by rumours and we know why the power station was destroyed.  Same reason a part of Jhb was without power for like 3 months, they had to hire a private contractor to repair the problem. So many examples.


Really you know what happened. Please do tell.  :Confused: 




> Please keep your personal opinions to yourself.


  :Huh:

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## Dave A

> I also wanted a filter, but the woman and the philamon there doesn't know ANYTHING.


I think this _philamon_ label has come up often enough now to ask for a clear definition. What is a "philamon"?

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## BusFact

> A bit frustrating and unfair don't you think ?


Very much so. It makes fronting so much more tempting. It also forces people into being negatively creative and reinforces the original problems with BEE which the Government tried to resolve by turning it into BBEEE.

What a pain.

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## KimH

> Quote Originally Posted by KimH View Post
> 
> *1. Ownership*
> 2. Management & Control
> 3. Employment Equity
> 4. Skills Development
> 5. Procurement
> 6. Enterprise Development
> 7. Socio-Economic Development
> ...


Horrendously unfair to say the least, and more than likely a result of this desire to "nationalise" the mines.

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## Fanie

Martin, I had exactly the same problem, the big co's tries to bully everyone.  I made a decision not to support them and that was it.  Fortunately I'm not dependant on them (expensive lesson from the past from most possibly the same situation) some of them now buy it through a third party still from me only at an increased price.  It really makes me PO if they phone me and tell me they have a policy... I just tell them we have one too.  It's usually a bunch of pen pushers making decisions they have no idea about how it affects everyone around them, but it sounds good and usually polishes someone's marble.

Keep your side clean and honest.  Too may okes are participating in illegal and semi illegal activities - sooner or later they backfire.  I will rather loose a deal than particpating in those things, I know some are very attractive.  Sorry I wasn't suggesting you do, just mentioning it in general.

I wonder why someone doesn't shout racism on this issue.  Why is it that if something is all black then it's ok, but if there is white in it it is wrong ?  It's discrimination you know.

If there was no white people - if we were all black - what would be the situation then, how would they discriminate then ?

I received an SMS from someone saying by 2012 then 60% of your friends must be black.  Please buy some nugget, I don't want to lose you as a friend !  Oh and there was the white guy who wanted a university bursary, couldn't get one !  He went to home affairs and changed his name from John Smith to John Mtwe-twe and re-applied.  He got the bursary and was allowed to attend the university.  Was in one of the newspapers if I remember right.  And while I'm at it, sipho (before philamon becomes an issue) - sipho couldn't afford personalized number plates so he changed his name at home affairs to LSR753GP.

There are too many people in SA that has become dependant on wrong things.  There are many that doesn't want crime to end.  There are many that doesn't want BEE to go away.  They allowed themselves to become dependant on these things and have no way out, not considering the majority of people experiencing problems as a result.

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## Dave A

I've been thinking a bit about what it would take to end BEE as I suspect there is little prospect of a "political solution" any time soon. And here's a thought:

BEE relies on the allowance for "fair" racial discrimination in the Constitution in order to be legally tenable. But are all instances of preferential procurement based on BEE fair all things considered?

What would make an interesting case before the Constitutional Court would be an instance where a contract was awarded on the basis of BEE rather than equal evaluation of tenders, but in this instance the BEE advantaged recipient of the tender happened to be significantly more *economically* advantaged than the racially predjudiced losing tenderer.

Unfortunately the biggest obstacle to finding a suitable case is the lack of transparency when it comes to public tenders nowadays.

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## tec0

If anything I am not too sure it will matter. Fact is BEE is a powerful tool when it comes to elections. That said, it is also true that BEE is directly connected to our economy and once our economy collapse due to the lack of imports such as food, petroleum products based on pure scarcity the system will break down.

The bigger picture is a really scary one make no mistake. In the end money is only worth something if we produce wealth. As soon as this is no longer true, South Africa will truly face the cost of BEE.

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## Dave A

> Fact is BEE is a powerful tool when it comes to elections.


That is why I feel there is little prospect of BEE being brought to an end via political channels. It is going to take a successful challenge in a court of law.

And I suggest any such challenge is going to have to meet some pretty specific requirements to have any chance of succeeding.

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## Fanie

> The bigger picture is a really scary one make no mistake. In the end money is only worth something if we produce wealth. As soon as this is no longer true, South Africa will truly face the cost of BEE.


The problem is that wealth is being created, but only in limited circles. The continuous price increases in SA should already be a warning that we're steering towards a disaster, for one, our money gets worth less and less.  Zim went through exactly the same thing.  You can already buy a very nice vehicle in the USA for around R200 000, here a rather poorly comparative vehicle starts at R500 000.  SA is quickly becoming the most expensive country in the world to live in.  When the collapse and chaos start, one will not even be able to sell his property for a plane ticket out of here.  A farm could previously be bought with less zim $ than a bread cost over there now, as rediculous as it sounds.  People won't have the money to buy your property, even if it gets sold dirt cheap.  I had family living in Zim, they say it was exactly the same, just slower here, probably due to the larger existing infrastructure.

I'm busy with a project on the moment and had to get materials from a few places and was hoping some of them could do some of the basics using machines instead of me labouring the job.  All I can say is I am so disappointed I feel like crying.

I work with technical things.  I cannot stand the low standard of things being done, that or you have to be prepared to pay rediculous prices to have something done properly.  A while ago I went on the internet, the overseas co's offer these services and you can see the product pictures looks like those of a first world country.  Here I cannot even have materials cut to size or it looks like new stuff comes from a scrap yard.  I see Eurosteel is closing down or was it a rumor ?  Well the aluminum I got from them the last few times I ordered was so badly scraped I couldn't give it to a customer.  It looked like it was dragged behind the vehicle.  Sad.  Where's it going to end.


Dave I doubt that BEE will ever be ended under this government.  I think I mentioned that black organizations exist all over the world, while a single white one, even attempted, gets accused of racism.  Check in the US how many there are, not a single white one.  It's the same here, they will consider it racism if any one oposes it, despite it being a racially biased thing.

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## Dave A

> Dave I doubt that BEE will ever be ended under this government.  I think I mentioned that black organizations exist all over the world, while a single white one, even attempted, gets accused of racism.


Why do you need a "white" organisation to challenge BEE?

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## tec0

When one realise that there is nothing one can do to prevent BEE or other such systems one realise the severity of the situation to come. Remember all our food is being imported all our skill is being imported in the form of contractors. South Africa’s economics are dependent on outsourcing. 

This is not a sustainable situation, if importing is stopped for any reason the effects will be immediate. Our economy will fall into a perpetual recession overnight. A national food crisis will become evident within days not months. The consequences from this point forward will be epical.

It is not a question of “IF” it is a question of when. As I said before the bigger picture is a really scary one.

Agriculture is key to our survival and I am not too that it is being advocated correctly. It is not about BEE or race or anything. It is about survival, the ability to produce Food when Food is in short supply.

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## Fanie

> Why do you need a "white" organisation to challenge BEE?


I mentioned only to indicate how one sided black anything is is.


Tech0,

They want the Rand to be poor so that they can get a good exchange rate for exporting ie gold.  The problem is that most other things are imported, SA have very little manufacturing capabilities.  While the public has to pay 7 x more for most things, the government get 7 x more for the country's gold they sell.

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## tec0

> I mentioned only to indicate how one sided black anything is is.


I wouldn’t be too sure about that Fanie, there are many of the majority thinking that this system is not working anymore. See not everyone is directly connected to the elite, thus poverty is still very much a factor in our country. 

Right now I wouldn’t dare to guess where we will be in the next ten to twenty years. The economy is slowly grinding to a halt, and the fact is our gold and other resources is mismanaged thus there sustainability comes into question.

How long can the race card  be plaid? Well I say this for all races if we can’t work together the alternative is extinction. The truth is however, it will be whatever is chosen.

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## Fanie

Hi Tech0,

I very much doubt if the economy is going to last another 10 years.  An economy can only sustain people if it grows as the count grows.  The severe poverty is going to become an even bigger problem.  The only solution to many many many problems in SA is going to be when we can get rid of this government and hopefully get one in place that will serve the country and it's people.

Amazing that so short before the election Julias delema is in the news again eh.  The somgs he sung is aparently part of their culture, so if that is justified then I can probably start using the k-word again and exersize apartheid because that was part of my culture too.  Just waiting for the fuel price to drop a bit for those extra vote or two in their favor before the election so I can go fishing.

It would have been nice if the darn DA would also do their bit for a change.  The only time I hear from them is at the vote box when the guy tries to convince me to vote DA in less than 10 seconds flat.  They were a bit early this year though, I got a chain letter from them saying we must ALL vote DA, send this to everyone you know, like we are sheep.  In my next life I also want to sit on my butt and do nothing and one day in the year spark a bit for a nice pay.

Sorry I know I'm off topic but if everyone here vote for the ANC perhaps the DA or someone else would wake up.  DA votes in Gautengelengelengeleng = 0 as in vrot.  The sooner the collapse the sooner something better will come along.




> Right now I wouldnt dare to guess where we will be in the next ten to twenty years


Exactly.  You don't know how long you have to live left.

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## tec0

> Exactly.  You don't know how long you have to live left.


I am not too sure about the intend of this sentence Fanie... I am also not too sure that you understand what you typed here; 




> The sooner the collapse the sooner something better will come along.


I am getting the impression that you already branded me. *"You don't know how long you have to live left."* I first thought that it may be a mistake in your sentence, but it is not now is it?  

I would seriously reconsider your attitude towards others Fanie. You strike me as a if you are not with me then you are against me type of person, thus making yourself a god over your own little world. 

Let me state this simply: You have been disrespectful, you brand people and your statements and there implications are carried by other innocent people. But clearly you want to disrespect people without remorse and utter disregard to their safety.

I think you are self-obsessed, egotistical and reckless... It is not nice to be branded now is it?  :No: 

Think about it, and while you do so also think about the damage you are causing because clearly these factors escapes you.

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## Fanie

Good grief !  Just read it for what I said.

I certainly don't want to spend my last few 'golden' years living off and on rubbish - which is where we are heading.  That is why I said you don't know how long you have left to live.  I would like to think while I'm alive I would be able to make a difference, to make this downslide change directions.  Now I'm not too sure - too many self rightous idiots !

You have personalised everything I said as an attack on you.  This is typical the south african mentality, those that doesn't see things your way, just begin to be offensive and play the man.  This is one of the reasons why this cuntry is so fcuked up.

You can have the whole forum to yourself.

Ta !

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## tec0

"You don't know how long you have to live left." No, the truth is this is what some call others if they dont share in the same political view. I myself is a dyslexic wouldnt easily make such a mistake? "I can probably start using the k-word again and exersize apartheid because that was part of my culture too." You accuse me of playing the man and not the situation? As for the rest of your statements, it is what it is irresponsible. 

As for living off and on rubbish. Here is the bigger situation, most of the people my age have nearly no commodities or investments going for us because our basic salary didnt allow for it. Now we can go around blaming people but that is pointless. I do not know what the future is holding for us Fanie, I really cannot say. 

I do know this; there is a right way and a wrong way.

Nice save "you don't know how long you have left to live"  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## Dave A

> This is one of the reasons why this cuntry is so fcuked up.


Typos?  :Stick Out Tongue: 




> You can have the whole forum to yourself.


Well, it looks like the rest of the forum has left this thread to the two of you to battle out.

Reminder: The discussion is about BEE, which is controversial enough in itself without hauling in unrelated muck to muddy the waters even further. Seriously, let's play the ball and not the man here folks. 
Please!

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