# Regulatory Compliance Category > General Regulatory Compliance Forum >  Certified copy of an electronic document

## Dave A

How do you produce a certified copy of an electronic document?

I ask because in order to renew the lease on our premises I have to supply the landlord with a certified copy of the company's CM29.

This never used to be a problem because in 2003 CIPRO used to send you a piece of paper. But the directors of the company changed last year. My auditors handled it. All the required forms were signed and CIPRO was updated. 

However, it seems the only updated CM29 received from CIPRO is an electronic document. There was no hard copy sent like in the good (or is that the bad) old days.

Yep, times have moved on. It's a legal document.

The landlord won't accept it. They want a certified copy of the original document.

So how do you make a certified copy of an electronic document?

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## daveob

The number of times I have needed a certified copy of my utilities account : which I receive via e-mail.

Printed 2 copies, off to the cop shop, here's the original, this is a copy, please certify.

Never had a problem and walked out with a stamped certified "copy" without so much as a question !!

Nothing illegal. They are certifying that the copy is in fact a copy of the other document. They are not certifying that the original is, in fact, an original unaltered document.

Only in Africa.

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## AmithS

I do the same as daveob  :Smile:  as I also receive my utilities via email  :Smile: 

Would love to know what is the correct procedure is!

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## KimH

Dave, ask your Auditor to certify a copy for you.

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## Dave A

> Dave, ask your Auditor to certify a copy for you.


That's exactly what's happening  :Wink: 

But I'm still somewhat gobsmacked at the archaic thinking behind this.

Forwarding a copy of the original pdf file by email doesn't cut it. They want paper.

The CM29 actually says the contents can be verified on the CIPRO website (now the CIPC website, of course).
However the landlord says the CIPC website can't be trusted to have the latest information due to their backlog  :Confused: 
Despite me pointing out that the effective date of a change of directors is the day it's captured on the CIPC website.

This is from a JSE listed company for crying out loud. How on earth can they be so... backward.

It's irritating, but:




> The number of times I have needed a certified copy of my utilities account : which I receive via e-mail.
> 
> Printed 2 copies, off to the cop shop, here's the original, this is a copy, please certify.
> 
> Never had a problem and walked out with a stamped certified "copy" without so much as a question !!
> 
> Nothing illegal. They are certifying that the copy is in fact a copy of the other document. They are not certifying that the original is, in fact, an original unaltered document.
> 
> Only in Africa.


Now that really scares me.

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## Justloadit

A certified copy of a copy!

Ohh you got to luv it when you start feeding sh!t to a...holes  :Smile: 

Probably some stupid clerk, who has no fuse wire between the ears making the request no doubt. So feed them with crap, they will not know the difference anyway.

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## Blurock

Dave, you are experiencing this problem because its a listed company. The bigger the company, the longer the red tape. That is why our banks deliver such bad service. The junior staff just paint by numbers, they have no clue as to why they do what they are doing. Well, actually that goes for the some of the senior staff too.

FICA is often misunderstood and I sometimes wonder what training is given in this regard. Some organisations will go to such lengths to get a completely useless piece of paper, its scary.

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## BusFact

Oh Dave, I hope your landlord contact isn't breeding. What a stupid request. I don't suppose they can give you instructions on how they expect you to get the CM29 in the format they want.

And I just love this comment from Justloadit: "Ohh you got to luv it when you start feeding sh!t to a...holes". It just sums up this situation so well ... and the FICA one too.

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## Dave A

I dropped off the certified copy this afternoon, and ribbed them about how they won't accept the electronic document or checking the validity of the info for themselves on the CIPC website.

Their concern with the electronic document is it could be forged and how would you know. To some extent it is a fair concern; probably safe to say most people wouldn't know what to check to ensure it's the "real deal" and hasn't been tampered with.

However, (particularly given the "certified copy of a printout" story above) is hardcopy really any more reliable nowadays?

When requirements are so unreasonable that honest people need to bend the rules to get through the system, there is absolutely no chance of the system being effective against fraudsters.

At this point FICA has become a farce. So maybe it should be scrapped altogether so we can stop wasting the vast majority of people's time.

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## mother

If they REALLY wanted to check the validity of the info, they should have checked it on the website themselves. Seems completely idiotic that they would prefer a piece of paper (which you could easily have tampered with, regardless of whatever "certified" stamp is on there), instead of getting the info first hand from the horse's mouth. :Chair:

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## gac

Went into Standard Bank the other day to open a new business account and was told they no longer accept docs certified by SAPS. 
Im not surprised and cant say I blame them but at the same time it is worrying that a Bank no longer trusts the people we rely on to uphold the law!
Does anyone know whether other Banks have as similar stance?

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## Dave A

The best one I heard in terms of not accepting proof of identity was the Motor Vehicle Licencing authorities not accepting drivers licences as proof of identity.

In theory they're the only issuing authority! Pretty sad when you can't trust (or verify) your own documentation  :Stick Out Tongue: 

I know one of the things you have to watch for when having certified copies verified with the SAPS is that they use the right stamp for certified copies. Apparently it's not unusual for them to confuse the _certified copy_ stamp with the _statement made under oath_ stamp, and there is a material difference between the two.

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## BusFact

> I know one of the things you have to watch for when having certified copies verified with the SAPS is that they use the right stamp for certified copies. Apparently it's not unusual for them to confuse the _certified copy_ stamp with the _statement made under oath_ stamp, and there is a material difference between the two.


Based on experience I can see how that can easily happen. Although in practice who ever actually reads the certifications? As long as its nice and official looking, you'd probably get by most times.

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## BusFact

> Went into Standard Bank the other day to open a new business account and was told they no longer accept docs certified by SAPS. 
> Im not surprised and cant say I blame them but at the same time it is worrying that a Bank no longer trusts the people we rely on to uphold the law!
> Does anyone know whether other Banks have as similar stance?


This has been a common feature at all the banks for a few years now. Essentially they want to see all the originals and to certify the documents themselves. Its too easy to fake a certified copy stamp and there is no real way of checking. So its more an issue with the process than the police themselves.

But all this FICA stuff does is waste the time of the law abiding citizens. The syndicates still get past it with relative ease. Its a huge waste of time and effort.

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## Blurock

Every time I go to the bank to do an enquiry, pick up a card or do a transaction, they make a copy of my ID document. What happens to all those copies? At this rate I must have been responsible for the deforestation of at least 1sq km. And then the banks have the audacity to call themselves green...!  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):  :No:

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## IMHO

> The number of times I have needed a certified copy of my utilities account : which I receive via e-mail.
> 
> Printed 2 copies, off to the cop shop, here's the original, this is a copy, please certify.
> 
> Never had a problem and walked out with a stamped certified "copy" without so much as a question !!
> 
> Nothing illegal. They are certifying that the copy is in fact a copy of the other document. They are not certifying that the original is, in fact, an original unaltered document.
> 
> Only in Africa.


I go one further. I now scan that stamped certified "copy" and mail it as .pdf to whoever wants it. They are just concerned with the date on the stamp. Not to be older than three months, then they are happy. So I do one for my ID every three months, hehe.

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## mbsmit

Yes - just like banks, people can also check a companies records on the CIPC website.

But regarding the certified copy issue, anyone read the Electronic Communications and Transactions Act? I recall a section regarding certification of an electronic record...

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