# Interest group forums > Electrical Contracting Industry Forum > [Question] Basic Compliance requirements

## hartdev@hotmail.com

Hi Guys
I am now going to ask a few questions to which I already thought i knew the answers, but have recently had some doubt ...
I have been doing C.O.Cs for a few years now for residential properties.
I'm one of these guys who take the law and quality of work seriously, perhaps too seriously at times.
One thing that I am often questioned about is this:
I have always been under the impression that to issue a COC every electrical device should be working
 eg.
 Every light
every plug socket
 Pool pump
 chlorinator
 geyser
 intercom
Timers
 fans
 lights within fans

excluding: garage door motors which are plugged in
extractor fans which are plugged in
alarm systems

I can't seem to find anywhere that specifically states that everything must work, but this is how I have always understood it to be.
I have estate agents telling me that I am quoting for unneccessary work and I'm losing out on jobs because there are other electricians repairing far less..
Another thing is that I always install double pole isolators for fans which are not on earth leakage.

I know estate agents have their own agendas but I also don't want people to think that I am trying to rip them off. 
I thought I knew this but now i'm not so sure...
Any advice would be greatly appreciated

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## Dave A

The variety of applied interpretation for section 9.2(b) COC's across the industry is a topic that has fascinated me for some time already. Before I put in my 2c worth though -




> I can't seem to find anywhere that specifically states that everything must work, but this is how I have always understood it to be.


Could I ask you to think hard as to what the source of that understanding might be?

Original training?
A COC refresher course, or regs update training perhaps?
Or from another IE?

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## hartdev@hotmail.com

Hi Dave
I did my COC course some time back so perhaps I need a refresher course...
The electrician I worked under in the past (many years ago) always quoted to repair any plug sockets, light fittings etc which were not working.
Another reason I work to this standard is that I issued a COC on a house about 2 years ago. I missed a plug socket which a cupboard was in front of ,which happened to not be in working order. The new owners acted like I had killed their children or something  :Smile:  They also complained bitterly about a plug socket which required slightly more force than normal to push in the plug top.
I replaced both of these plug sockets at my expense without asking any questions. I live in a small town and don't need a bad reputation.

I have since started charging R1050 for a COC inspection, I check everything and do all tests (eg. PSC, earth electrode, earth continuity etc), and I clearly state that if I uncover any other problems while doing repairs I will sort them out at my own expense.
The problem is my competitors are charging R500 for the inspection. However new owners of homes are contacting me saying they have bought a house and light fittings etc are not working and they want to hire me to do inspections for them so that they can argue with the electrician or estate agents.
I don't want to be in a position where I am criticizing other electricians work, but it seems I can't avoid it if I want to keep my business afloat. 
What a conundrum  :Smile:

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jkamuz (03-Jan-16)

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## Dave A

Let's start with what's on the COC document itself. In SANS 10142-1 on page 281, NOTE 3 states -



> This report covers the circuits for fixed appliances, but does not cover the actual appliances, for example stoves, geysers, air conditioning and refrigeration plant and lights.


From that it might seem that fixed appliances are excluded entirely from examination; if only life were so simple.

Looking at the definitions of an electrical installation per the Electrical Installation Regulations (R 242 of 2009), we find -

*"electrical installation"* means any machinery, in or on any premises, used for the transmission of electricity from a point of control to *a point of consumption* anywhere on the premises, including any article forming part of such an electrical installation irrespective of whether or not it is part of the electrical circuit, but excluding
(a) any machinery of the supplier related to the supply of electricity on the premises;
(b) any machinery which transmits electrical energy in communication, control circuits, television or radio circuits;
(c) an electrical installation on a vehicle, vessel, train or aircraft; and
(d) control circuits of 50 V or less between different parts of machinery or system components, forming a unit, that are separately installed and derived from an independent source or an isolating transformer;

Now looking at the point of consumption, we find -

*"point of consumption"* means any point of outlet or the supply terminals of machinery which is not connected to a point of outlet and which converts electrical energy to another form of energy: Provided that in the case of machinery which has been installed for any specific purpose as a complete unit, the point of consumption shall be the supply terminals which have been provided on the unit of machinery for that purpose;

And I need to dash  - I'll come back to this later.

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hartdev@hotmail.com (07-Jan-16)

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## Dave A

So let's try to answer this question now -



> One thing that I am often questioned about is this:
> I have always been under the impression that to issue a COC every electrical device should be working
>  eg.
>  Every light
> every plug socket
>  Pool pump
>  chlorinator
>  geyser
>  intercom
> ...


Here are some extracts from the ECA (SA)'s information brochure on the Certificate of Compliance and Test Report - 

As part of the answer to the question *"I have a Certificate of Compliance (CoC) and the installation is not functioning properly, what should I do?"*




> It is important to bear in mind that the CoC and Test Report certifies the *safety* of the installation. It is possible that an electrical installation might not be fully functional (e.g. some lights or plugs don't work), but the installation is safe and the CoC and Test Report is valid.


In answer to the question *"Are appliances covered by the Certificate of Compliance (CoC)?"*




> Appliances such as lights, geysers, stoves, air conditioning units etc (See note 3 on the front page of the Test Report) are not covered by the CoC and Test Report. A non-working appliance does not mean that the CoC is invalid.The CoC and Test Report covers the whole installation from the point of control (main switch in the distribution board) to the point of consumption anywhere on the premises (i.e. socket outlets, terminals of light fittings, geysers, stoves etc.)The CoC and Test Report certifies the fixed wiring of the electrical installation including the distribution board, light switches, wall mounted isolators, and socket outlets.


On the flip side, I'm reliably informed that at a regs. update training session in KZN some years ago attended by 100s of IEs, the presenter stated that if there's a light, it must work (the self-same person who had a strong hand in the development of the info flyer I quoted from above). No wonder there are conflicting views out there!

Last thought for this evening - The one thing that stands out from your list is "plug socket" as socket outlets are part of the electrical installation - i.e. not a fixed appliance.

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hartdev@hotmail.com (07-Jan-16), jkamuz (06-Jan-16)

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## hartdev@hotmail.com

Dave thanks so much for the information  :Smile: 
Firstly I now realize that Intercoms should not form part of the COC and I will exclude that in future.
The issue of light fittings is a confusing one but I will stick with ensuring they work.
I will also ensure all plug sockets work.
I'm still not one hundred percent sure about pool pumps, chlorinators etc though...These are expensive items and I can imagine neither the seller or the buyer of the property will want to pay for repairs.
If the COC is simply a matter of safety it would be alot simpler, but working to that standard just gives my company a bad name when new owners move into a home and half the light fittings etc aren't working. 
So I will keep being the pain in the ass who insists everything must work  :Smile: 
I think I will just provide the WCAEIA (Western Cape Approved Electrical Inspection Authiority) number to people who ask me to judge another electricians work in future. Its just don't clear enough as far as I understand to argue the point with anyone.

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## Dave A

I have my reservations about the position on some of these things too. Here's another gem, this time from the ECA(SA) FAQ page -




> *Can fixtures, lights, fans, electrical gates, swimming pool pump etc. be exluded from an Electrical Compliance Certificate?*
> 
> In terms of the Electrical Installation Regulations 2009 (which are a Schedule to the Occupational health and Safety Act), an “electrical installation” is defined as any machinery, in or on any premises, used for the transmission of electricity from the point of control to the point of consumption anywhere on the premises. The point of control is defined as the point at which an electrical installation on or in any premises may be switched off by the user from the electricity supplied from the point of supply; and the point of consumption means any point of outlet or the supply terminals of machinery which is not connected to a point a point of outlet. *A point of outlet is defined as any termination of an electrical installation which has been provided for connecting any electrical machinery without the use of a tool. In other words, a socket outlet is a point of outlet, and anything plugged into that socket is not deemed to be a part of the electrical installation.
> 
> The only situations in which something that is “plugged in” becomes a part of the installation is a swimming pool, spa bath etc for which specific provisions are included in the Wiring Code (SANS 10142-1), and extra low voltage lighting.* Such Code lays down the minimum safety standards for any electrical installation in South Africa. Insofar as fixtures such as lights, electric gates, cookers and fans are concerned, the installation terminates at their connections. So, for example, if the fan motor is not functioning but the earthing and connections to the fan are safe, it is not a requirement for the electrical contractor to ensure that the fan is working. This would be an issue between the seller and the buyer because the expectation of the buyer is that all he sees is in proper working order.


I suggest there's a huge potential to misunderstand the definition of "point of consumption" in play here. Let me stress this part of the *actual* definition -



> Provided that in the case of machinery which has been installed for any specific purpose as a complete unit, the point of consumption shall be the supply terminals which have been provided on the unit of machinery for that purpose;


It's a catch-all qualification of the preceding sentence, and doesn't an electric gate motor meet this requirement? Hence even if powered off a socket-outlet, the point of consumption remains the supply terminals which have been provided on the unit of machinery...?
And in fact a couple of sentences later the ECA(SA) statement says the same thing too.

You also have to consider 6.16.1.11 of SANS 10142-1, which states -

The wiring between different parts of a fixed appliance that are installed separately is part of a fixed installation, even where it is supplied by a socket-outlet, unless such wiring is less than 3m in length.

So it's simply not true that if something is powered off a socket-outlet, it is automatically not part of the fixed installation.

I'm also a little concerned the piece might be interpreted as suggesting that if a swimming pool pump motor isn't working, it is an electrical CoC issue...

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## Sparks

Just a footnote here to be kept in mind. Although the actual fixed appliance is not covered by the COC, it must still meet the earthing and isolating requirements.

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## Stef-Lec

Hello Gents,

I'm sitting with the same issue on a property where the pool pump installation is run from a plug in one of the bedrooms going to the mini DB in the pump house. The mini DB then has a plug socket again where the pump motor is plugged into. I'm inclined to just exclude it from the COC and note the same on the exclusion section of the COC.

I'm of the opinion that the user/lessor/lessee is using it as an appliance due to the fact that it is connected to a point of outlet, as per the definition for "point of consumption" the supply terminals of the pump DB would only be regarded as the point of consumption when it is NOT connected to a point of outlet, i.e a plug socket....which then means I could exclude it?

Considering  6.16.1.11 of SANS 10142-1, it talks about the PARTS of a fixed appliance, not the wiring between the installation and the appliance....the fixed appliance is the pump  inclusive of the mini DB (ie the different parts), then the wiring between the mini DB & the pump are regarded as fixed, unless <3m in length which it is, so then it is not fixed, and not part of the installation?

Looking at 7.2.4.4 & 7.2.4.6 the only requirement if the pump is in Zone 2, is that it must be be EL protected & earthed obviously & have visible bonding, so whether part of the installation or not it still satisfies the so-called specific provisions for pumps.

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## Stef-Lec

If I read 6.16.1 in it's entirety, point 1 clearly says fixed appliances are not part of the electrical installation, other than positioning in relation to the supply & wiring between the parts of the appliance(referred to again in point 11)
Point 3 states that the supply must be through a double pole disconnector (not a double pole switch) OR socket outlet that is directly accessible, and according to point 5, either 1.5m from the appliance OR in a DB(if able to be locked in open pos)

6.16.10 talks about connnections between circuit conductors and appliance conductors, then it logically follows that 6.16.11 is not referring to the supply to the appliance, but rather aimed at appliances like split a unit AC's where the wiring between external & internal units (parts of the fixed appliance) are >3m. This part of wiring is then regarded as part of the installation ( and must then have it's own overcurrent protection) even if the AC unit in its entirety is fed from a scoket, but the AC itself is not part of the installation.

Thus my conclusion is that in short, swimming pool pumps, garage door motors, gate motors AC units,geysers, stoves etc are fixed appliances and not part if the installation, and could be fed from a plug (unless specific regs apply such as for geysers/stoves) or a switch disconnector, in the case of the latter the point of consumption will be at the supply terminals of the appliance and thus the wiring up to these terminals is included in the COC whilst in the case of the former the COC covers up to the socket outlet.

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## AndyD

I would suggest the socket in the house would be considered the point of consumption. I don't think you can consider a pool control box as a 'Sub-DB', if I remember correctly it should be solely for the supply of pool equipment and an integral part of the fixed appliance. From waht you've mentioned above it sounds like you've got a fixed appliance supplied from the socket in the house via what's effectively an extension lead.

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## Sparks

I agree with Andy that the room plug is the point of consumption. Being a fixed appliance with the isolating point in a room inside the house it is not acceptable. The distance from the plug also exceeds recommendations. The pool db cannot be considered a sub db by virtue of it being plugged in as Andy mentioned. The cheapest and quickest way to rectify would be to call it a mixed circuit and connect the db directly to the socket outlet supply.

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## Stef-Lec

Tx  Andy/Sparks,

pretty much my reasoning as well; only reason for calling it a"mini-db" was for the sake of description, it is used as a control box solely for pool equipment.

WRT the isolating point being in a room in the house and the distance, I can agree it is not acceptable to us, but legally it is actually OK. The purpose of the 3m recommendation is for proper functioning of the overload protection, but there is a breaker in the control box, and Amdt 3 of 6.16.1.3 states that if the appliance is remotely installed, the position of the disconnecting device must be indicated by a notice  close to the appliance.

The conundrum however is that I could exclude the pool pump from the COC owing to the point of consumption being the plug in the house, yet there are rules still in play for the pump. Does it mean then that the user/lessor is now accountable for the pump and it's associated rules? I feel it is my duty to at least inform them of the fact, but is that where my obligation ends?

I'm a bit weary of going the mixed circuit route as they are using surfix that is buried;  if it was buried inside a conduit I'd be comfortable, but there have been issues before with the gardener damaging the cable so I'd rather just exclude it to protect myself as well.

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## Dave A

> The conundrum however is that I could exclude the pool pump from the COC owing to the point of consumption being the plug in the house, yet there are rules still in play for the pump. Does it mean then that the user/lessor is now accountable for the pump and it's associated rules? I feel it is my duty to at least inform them of the fact, but is that where my obligation ends?


From one of my posts in this thread here, the ECA (SA) view on this is: -




> *Can fixtures, lights, fans, electrical gates, swimming pool pump etc. be exluded from an Electrical Compliance Certificate?*
> 
> In terms of the Electrical Installation Regulations 2009 (which are a Schedule to the Occupational health and Safety Act), an “electrical installation” is defined as any machinery, in or on any premises, used for the transmission of electricity from the point of control to the point of consumption anywhere on the premises. The point of control is defined as the point at which an electrical installation on or in any premises may be switched off by the user from the electricity supplied from the point of supply; and the point of consumption means any point of outlet or the supply terminals of machinery which is not connected to a point a point of outlet. *A point of outlet is defined as any termination of an electrical installation which has been provided for connecting any electrical machinery without the use of a tool. In other words, a socket outlet is a point of outlet, and anything plugged into that socket is not deemed to be a part of the electrical installation.
> 
> The only situations in which something that is “plugged in” becomes a part of the installation is a swimming pool, spa bath etc for which specific provisions are included in the Wiring Code (SANS 10142-1), and extra low voltage lighting.* Such Code lays down the minimum safety standards for any electrical installation in South Africa. Insofar as fixtures such as lights, electric gates, cookers and fans are concerned, the installation terminates at their connections. So, for example, if the fan motor is not functioning but the earthing and connections to the fan are safe, it is not a requirement for the electrical contractor to ensure that the fan is working. This would be an issue between the seller and the buyer because the expectation of the buyer is that all he sees is in proper working order.

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## Stef-Lec

Tx Dave, I saw that, hence my posts; I find that view a bit strange because point of consumption specifically excludes any machinery fed from a point of outlet and fixed appliances are also excluded specifically in 16.6.1.


So which takes precedence? The fixed appliance rules or the swimming pool rules? The pool equipment is complies with specific provision for pools and non submersible pumps; my problem is with the supply cable that's not buried deeper that 0.5m and is not in a conduit.

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## ACEsterhuizen

The EIR 2009 refers:

There is a lot of different interpretations of the standards but the ECA or any "Inspection Authority" has no legal mandate to decide on that interpretation, only the Chief Inspector has. (Something the IA's tried to change some time in order to become judge jury and executioner)


*....Appeals*

12 (1) Should a dispute arise over the interpretation of a health and safety standard referred to in regulation 7 between the user, the registered person, the approved inspection authority for electrical installations, or the supplier, as the case may be, the *affected person* may appeal against that *interpretation* to the *chief inspector*.

(2) The person who appeals under sub-regulation (1) shall serve a notice of appeal, setting out fully the grounds of the appeal, on *both* the chief inspector *and* the person against whose interpretation he or she is appealing, by personally delivering the notice of appeal or sending it by *registered* post.

(3) The person against whose *interpretation* is being appealed shall, within 14 working days of the date of on which he or she received the notice of appeal, forward a notice setting out the *reasons* for his or her interpretation, to the *chief* *inspector*.

*(4) The chief inspector shall, after having considered the grounds of the appeal and the cause of the dispute, confirm, set aside or vary the interpretation of the safety standard referred to in sub-regulation (1) or substitute it for such interpretation, which in the opinion of the chief inspector ought to have been taken.*

_They do respond very quickly, and I have have had numerous favourable "rulings" (which is a short letter sent back to the affected parties telling them what is going where and when and how deep) regarding disputes (against incompetent IA's, vindictive contractors and clever lawyers with their customers) So what I am saying is, interpret the standards to the best of your ability, and if you are challenged, follow the above procedure. It is fairly quick, and also the only legal way, and it's final._

_Also, if you have such papers and ruling on appeals from the chief inspector a small claims court order becomes so much more successful._ _(I successfully claimed against a customer for not paying an invoice for wasteful time spent because of his incompetence and his contractor's vindictiveness)_

*Merry Christmas everyone and have a prosperous new year!*

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## Stef-Lec

Thanks for the advice AC,

I read that as well and that's also why I'm questioning the ECA interpretation Dave quoted, I could not figure out what rule it is based on. To me the the more direct & explicit rules are the ones that would carry more weight as they are clearer, and the more rules you can apply to one interpretation as opposed to another, then the that would be the logical way to implement. And as someone mentioned in one of the threads, never say " I was told to..." as that would imply insufficient knowledge on your part.

I'd much rather just interpret as best I can based on what I can read in the rules and note the rules used on the COC in the comments section; chances are that your interpretation would not even be challenged.

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## markthespark

I think that, although it may cost you an extra hour on your inspection, make a note of any fixed appliances that are faulty and notify your client and have them sign acknowledgement of the faulty appliances. If there are issues with the new owners of the home you can always refer them back to the agent or the ex home owners. Sometimes the original home owners are not entirely aware of the faulty appliances.

I know its a pain but through experience I have found that this route has helped me out on numerous occasions. I have also benefited from the extra work for the repair work to some of the appliances.

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ACEsterhuizen (27-Dec-16)

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## Dave A

I was at a DoL safety forum in Durban a few weeks ago, and one of the points on "interpretation" is that too many people are trying to justify their installation's compliance via interpretation of the rules, rather than letting the code define what compliance is. This discussion illustrates the point.

Our hero is seeking to exclude the swimming pool supply because of a concern about the way it is supplied (specifically buried surfex not in conduit). So he tries to hang his hat on the fact that it's supplied via a socket outlet.

What does the code say?




> I could not figure out what rule it is based on.


You raised it yourself  in your conundrum - SANS 10142-1 has specific requirements for these fixed appliances regardless of whether it is supplied via a socket outlet or not. If you are to say that the installation complies with SANS 10142-1 and there's a swimming pool pump fixed appliance present, does the supply to the swimming pool motor comply?

I suggest if there's a "conundrum", a likely reason is there has been a wrong turn taken in the logic path.

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## Stef-Lec

> I was at a DoL safety forum in Durban a few weeks ago, and one of the points on "interpretation" is that too many people are trying to justify their installation's compliance via interpretation of the rules, rather than letting the code define what compliance is. This discussion illustrates the point.


I most certainly agree with that; the discussion just illustrates that the rules are not always clear cut.




> You raised it yourself in your conundrum - SANS 10142-1 has specific requirements for these fixed appliances regardless of whether it is supplied via a socket outlet or not


True.. and this is the bit I'm not too clear on.

These points are clear according to code:
Fixed appliances are not part of the installationCOC covers point of control to point of consumptionPoint of consumption is the terminal of of fixed appliance except if powered from a socketCables must be buried deeper than 0.5m and in a conduit if unarmoredNon submersible pumps must be earthed, bonded and protected by E/L (specific requirements)

The supply to the pump does not comply, no argument.
The pump itself however is compliant with the specific rules.
Based on the code my logic says pool pumps, gate motors etc are not part of any installation  and the the supply cable is only regarded as part of the installation when it is wired to the DB or any (mixed) circuit i.e NOT from a socket, fairly simple. 

In this case then the supply to the pump is not covered by the COC, so is it then up to the owner to decide what he wants to do with the non-compliant cable? I see what you're getting at Dave, but can I reasonably refuse to issue the COC based on the rules above?

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ACEsterhuizen (25-Dec-16)

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## Dave A

> Point of consumption is the terminal of of fixed appliance except if powered from a socket


That's not what the definition says. Read it again -

*"point of consumption"* means any point of outlet or the supply terminals of machinery which is not connected to a point of outlet and which converts electrical energy to another form of energy: *Provided that in the case of* machinery which has been installed for any specific purpose as a complete unit, the point of consumption shall be the supply terminals which have been provided on the unit of machinery for that purpose;
In your situation I'd be inclined to say the point of consumption is the supply terminals of the control panel - i.e. your "mini-db" (being the machinery's control panel).

Of course we all recognise the moment that "mini-db" also supplies something else, like outside lighting, a gazebo, the gate motor, etc. it now becomes a sub-db and the whole game moves to a different level.

If you don't consider the pool appliance (normally the pump and the pool light) as a complete unit of machinery installed for a specific purpose, then the "control panel" must actually be a sub-db.

This seems to put me at odds with Andy, which does concern me some. The crux would seem to be what constitutes a "complete unit of machinery", perhaps?

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## AndyD

Lol, I wouldn't worry about being at odds with me, I'm certainly not an expert and am usually at odds with myself from one day to another. I almost never get involved with this area of electrics (domestic and CoC's) so take anything I say with a pinch of salt. 




> point of outlet
> termination of an electrical installation, which has been provided for
> connecting any electrical machinery without the use of a tool, provided
> that no connection to a busbar is deemed to be a point of outlet. (See
> socket-outlet, 3.72)


 The point of outlet for the pool installation was a socket in the bedroom therefore the supply terminal of the machinery is connected to a point of outlet therefor by the definition in 3.55 the supply terminal of the machinery or any point within the pool control box can't be the 'point of consumption'.

As you say, whether you class a swimming pool a fixed appliance installation along with its light, possibly a chlorinator etc as '_machinery which has been installed for any specific purpose as a complete unit_'. The COC itself classes a pool as a fixed appliance but the contention for me with this definition is the 'complete unit' part. It would suggest all components would be have been supplied together as a complete unit and all would be interlinked via common controls. A pool pump and possibly a chlorinator and even a 24hr/7day timer switch could be a 'complete unit' because they're usually interlocked to operate together so an installation consisting of only those items the panel that supplies them could be a control panel. Problem comes with the light with isolating transformer on its own OCPD and own switch which would be an autonomous/extraneous item from the pool machinery although the luminaire itself is an integral part of the pool so would this make the pool box a subDB? Honestly I don't know.

It would be a similar conundrum with a geyser that has a retrofit energy monitoring gizmo attached to it. Invariably these are supplied from the geyser isolator switch but often they wouldn't pass the 'being installed as a complete unit' requirement so would they be classed as being part of the geyser or would they be a separate fixed appliance meaning the geyser isolator is actually supplying two fixed appliances?

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## Lionels

My thinking is that a pool DB should always be fed directly from a DB, and class it as a SUB DB. 
My reasoning is that on the COC it only lists a *POOL PUMP*, not POOL DB, so in my mind it should be listed as a separate DB.

Maybe I dont need to go that far but the SANS 10142 is deemed as a minimum standard so if it is safer or as deemed by me, better, no one can complain.

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## AndyD

> .....but the SANS 10142 is deemed as a minimum standard so if it is safer or as deemed by me, better, no one can complain.


 I like the way you think, I agree the code is and should considered be an absolute minimum standard and there's no reason a risk assessment by a competant person shouldn't result in a higher standard being required if necessary.  :Smile:

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## Blurock

What is the compliance standard for manufacturing of LED light fittings.
A friend is manufacturing a really sexy housing from extruded aluminium, but is uncertain about the requirements for the LED lights fitted inside the housing.

Can someone please help?

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## AndyD

Maybe contact SABS and ask what the testing/certification requirements would be https://www.sabs.co.za/Sectors-and-S...tronics_pt.asp

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Blurock (07-Sep-17)

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## markthespark

Hi guys it seems that most of the topics on the forum are items related to compliance. It would really be helpful if the inspectors of the inspection authorities would join the forum and assist us all with these confusing issues.How do we get them to participate?

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## ians

> Hi guys it seems that most of the topics on the forum are items related to compliance. It would really be helpful if the inspectors of the inspection authorities would join the forum and assist us all with these confusing issues.How do we get them to participate?


Putting yourself on a public forum and opening up to all these issues would be suicide. 

Getting the correct info about the regs is like trying to squeeze water out of a stone. 

In the perfect world SABS would have a help line. They make the rules they should have people who are employed and trained to offer 24 hours (or at least during office hours) guidance to inspectors. 

The fact that people have to resort to social media platforms like this to get advice is a clear indication of how f&*%&* the system is.

You can always follow the sparks edition of the regs, they dont even get it right.

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## Sparks

> What is the compliance standard for manufacturing of LED light fittings.
> A friend is manufacturing a really sexy housing from extruded aluminium, but is uncertain about the requirements for the LED lights fitted inside the housing.
> 
> Can someone please help?



Have him print "Made in China" on it and he will be good to go.

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## AndyD

I know you guys are talking about interpreting of the regs rather than the regs themselves so on a slight tangent, I've wondered for a while and never got around to asking, does anyone know if the SANS regulations are available to be accessed for free viewing at public libraries? This is the case in the UK, (in theory) you can view all the British Standard regs at any library. In practice they're only available at the main libraries but none the less they're available for public viewing, just wondered if it was the same here.....

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## hartdev@hotmail.com

I don't know but I doubt it. Surely if regulation information was freely available it would make our country safer?
Although, can you imagine clients inspecting your work while reading regulations with their uneducated misinterpretation thrown into the mix x)

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## Gtfast

> Putting yourself on a public forum and opening up to all these issues would be suicide. 
> 
> Getting the correct info about the regs is like trying to squeeze water out of a stone. 
> 
> In the perfect world SABS would have a help line. They make the rules they should have people who are employed and trained to offer 24 hours (or at least during office hours) guidance to inspectors. 
> 
> The fact that people have to resort to social media platforms like this to get advice is a clear indication of how f&*%&* the system is.
> 
> You can always follow the sparks edition of the regs, they dont even get it right.


Hi Ian's 
Where can one find the Sparks edition of the regs.It is always good to get another perspective.
Thanks

Sent from my HUAWEI VNS-L31 using Tapatalk

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## Blurock

> I know you guys are talking about interpreting of the regs rather than the regs themselves so on a slight tangent, I've wondered for a while and never got around to asking, does anyone know if the SANS regulations are available to be accessed for free viewing at public libraries? This is the case in the UK, (in theory) you can view all the British Standard regs at any library. In practice they're only available at the main libraries but none the less they're available for public viewing, just wondered if it was the same here.....


The SANS and SABS regulations are not free and may not be copied or sold privately http://home.sanas.co.za/

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## Stuart Louw

Most of those posts are from 2016 and I am wondering if legislation is still the same. I am trying to find out if it is true that there needs to be an isolation switch within 1.5m of an electric gate motor? The other concern I have is similar to the questions in the thread. I recently took occupation of a house where the gate motor is fed by a 20m long surflex cable from a normal plug outlet socket in the garage. At the gate motor electricity is tapped off to a day night switch which gives power to two lights in the wall on either side of the gate. 
The wiring at the gate motor and to the day night switch is disgusting and is not safe and the day night switch is cracked and no longer waterproof, prompting me to question the validity of the COC certificate.

I have been told conflicting stories and do not know what to believe. I still have these questions:
	Is an isolation switch required within 1.5m of an electric gate motor, irrespective of the source of power. (plugged in vs wired in)
	Do the lights and day night switch connected to the gate motor make it _part of the installation_ and subject to COC compliance?

If the gate motor and lights are excluded because of it being classified as plugged in, do I have any recourse with the estate agent company for not disclosing this in the Offer to Purchase contract they drew up?

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## GCE

Hi 

Bearing in mind that the COC for an installation is subject to the regulation at date of installation and I am referring to the new reg's - Sans 10142-1 Ed 2 
The quick and easy answer is in 6.16.1.5 - A socket outlet shall only feed one fixed appliance - In your case the socket outlet is feeding 3 fixed appliances.- I would say that it would fail.

A couple of further reg's pasted below from previous queries 

Gate motors fed from  a socket outlet in the dwelling - over 3m away  
Using Sans 10142-1 Ed 2
A gate motor is regarded as a motor - 6.16.5 - pg 187

6.16.5.1.4 pg 188 - each motor shall be supplied by a manually operated disconnector - shall be visible , readily accessible etc 

6.16.1.5 pg 182 - Socket outlet shall only supply one fixed appliance .The use of flexible cords exceeding 3m is not recommended 

6.16.1.10 - pg 183 - Wiring between different parts of a fixed appliance that are installed separately is part of the fixed installation even when supplied from a socket outlet

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## ACEsterhuizen

gce. how does these regs reconcile each other then?

*6.9.3.3* The *disconnecting device* shall be a *switch-disconnector* that
disconnects all the phase conductors, *however*


a) a circuit-breaker *may be used instead of a switch-disconnector* if
overcurrent protection is also required (see also 6.8.1.), or

b) *another device* may be used instead of a switch-disconnector, where
specified in this part of SANS 10142 for a particular application.

NOTE 1 Any switch used to control an inductive load has to be suitable for that duty.

NOTE 2 *Unless* the device is a switch-disconnector, it shall be marked.

*NOTE 3 The removal of a plug from a socket-outlet is a means of safe
disconnection.*

Surely if the "motor" feeds from a "socket-outlet" it satisfy the "disconnector" requirements since it is allowed?

Also bear in mind that the 3m rule is only for "flexible cords", not surfix?

*6.16.1.5* A socket-outlet shall supply only one fixed appliance. The use of
*flexible cords of length exceeding 3 m is not recommended.* The reason for
this recommendation is an endeavour to ensure operation of the overcurrent
protective device. (But see also 6.14.1.4 for luminaires.)

and,

*6.16.1.2* The power supply to every fixed appliance, except luminaires, shall
be supplied through

a) a disconnecting device that disconnects both live conductors in a singlephase
supply and all phase conductors in a multiphase supply, or

*b) a socket-outlet that is directly accessible at all times that any person is
exposed to such appliance while the supply is on. In the case of a
remotely installed appliance, the position of the disconnecting device
shall be indicated by means of a notice in close proximity to or on the
appliance.*


and,


*6.9.3* *Disconnecting devices* for equipment

6.9.3.1 An appliance *or* equipment that is *not* supplied from a socket-outlet,
including equipment automatically or remote controlled, shall be capable of
being disconnected from the supply by an easily accessible switchdisconnector.
The disconnector shall be mounted (if not specified elsewhere
in this part of SANS 10142, but excluding luminaire circuits) (see also
6.16.1.4)

a) within arm's reach from the terminals of the appliance, *or*

b) *in a distribution board, if the device is capable of being locked in the open
position.*

The disconnector can control *more than one appliance* if the functions of the
appliances are *related*. Where equipment which belongs to the supplier of
electricity (such as meters or remote controlled load switching) is installed,
the* main switch* may be regarded as the disconnecting device

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## Sparks

In a nutshell, a socket outlet within 1.5m of a gate motor is an acceptable isolating device. It does not need to be replaced with a double pole isolator. Being fed from a socket outlet in the garage your concerns are valid Stuart. Either a socket outlet or isolator must be provided at the gate. The pillar lights can be fed from the gate motor which has terminals provided therefore. The cracked D/N switch does not comply with IP rating anymore and must be replaced. Any open joints or non-UV protected cable would also be in contravention of the regulations. When an installation is inspected it is not always the latest regulations, as they stand now, which are applicable. In certain cases older regulations must be applied and sometimes only the minimum safety requirements.

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## ACEsterhuizen

Respectfully, i have to disagree, I will sign a coc if the gate *motor* plugs into ANY sans approved socket outlet and has not been wired with a flexible cord (3m rule for "flexible cords): {if it satisfies a) or b) or c) or d) below}

*6.16.5.1.4* Each motor *shall* be supplied by a manually operated
disconnector *or* any other manually operated disconnecting arrangement
such as a withdrawable circuit-breaker, a removable link, a fuse *or by the
removal of a plug from a socket-outlet,* which provides at least the* same
isolating distance*, for the sake of safety, as a disconnector that is

a) readily accessible and mounted *on* or *next* to the motor, or
*b) visible from the motor, or*
c) *lockable* in the open position, or
d) housed in a *lockable* enclosure other than a distribution board.

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## GCE

Hi 

I agree with the above statement - In the  original query by Stuart the motor was plugged in 20m away - There was no mention of a socket next to the motor.

With regards to my statement that once the cord exceeds 3m - I need to find the reg , as it is mention but time is a bit short at the moment.

If we all said that we can unplug and then ignore the installation -  then why don't we install a 63amp socket outlet at the incoming supply - When coming to do a coc we just unplug the house and give the COC for for the 63amp socket .

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## ACEsterhuizen

> Hi 
> 
> I agree with the above statement - In the  original query by Stuart the motor was plugged in 20m away - There was no mention of a socket next to the motor.
> 
> With regards to my statement that once the cord exceeds 3m - I need to find the reg , as it is mention but time is a bit short at the moment. 
> If we all said that we can unplug and then ignore the installation -  then why don't we install a 63amp socket outlet at the incoming supply - When coming to do a coc we just unplug the house and give the COC for for the 63amp socket .


_"I gave the regs: 6.16.1.5 A socket-outlet shall supply only one fixed appliance. The use of
flexible cords of length exceeding 3 m is not recommended. The reason for
this recommendation is an endeavour to ensure operation of the overcurrent
protective device. (But see also 6.14.1.4 for luminaires.)"_


"Point of supply and point of consumption" is what defines an "installation"

You can very well do that. :Big Grin:  But what you are suggesting still will not satisfy the second part of that same installation of sans 10142-2017 2nd edition for the "installation" itself as defined.

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## Stuart Louw

Deal All

Thank you for all your comments and advice. I used these facts to compel the Electrician who issued the COC to come back and install an isolator switch at the gate motor and replace the day/night switch. Costs were not for my account. Once again thanks to everyone for enabling me to fight with accurate facts.

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## Sparks

I am glad you got it sorted out. Unfortunately too many guys try short cuts.

While on the subject. I believe that with regards to excluding appliance from the COC, the point is not to rip the regs to shreds looking for an easy way out but rather to absolve the contractor from having to have an appliance technician along on the inspection to strip all faulty appliances to look for faults when in most cases new owners will change their light fittings, stoves, upgrade gravity fed geysers to high pressure and quite possibly knock a few walls down to do alterations. The appliance must at least be safe to use and safe to work on(an isloating device at hand).

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## tharissamanikum

Good day, I am currently in the process of buying a property. 

The COC was done and certified as correct.

However, im of the understanding that a pool circuitry is supposed to be independent. The current connect is the pool circuitry is mixed with indoor plug points. Is this correct? the pool breaker is a 30A break with cabling of 1.5mm2 and 2.5mm2, is this correct?

the current COC states that the pool circuitry is independent but clearly is not when i drop the breaker. 



Please kindly advise.

Thank you in advance.  :Smile:

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## GCE

Hi 
When you talk of dropping the breaker - Is it the Earth Leakage unit ? This will drop numerous circuits
The 30 Amp feeding 2,5sqmm does not sound correct , but it will depend if it is an isolator or there is a smaller CB protecting the " breaker " upstream.
A bit difficult to comment fully based purely on the COC attached 
Maybe a couple of photos will provide clarity

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## tharissamanikum

No, I meant when I drop the circuit breaker labelled pool on the DB box, the pool circuit is isolated as well as plug points in the house. This clearly indicates that the pool circuit comprises of plug points in the house. Is this in accordance to SANS regulations? What pictures would you require?

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## GCE

A socket circuit is allowed to feed fixed appliances as per reg6.15.4.2 
A pool pump falls under reg 6.16 fixed appliances 
The Circuit breaker should have been labeled as mixed loads 

With regards to the wire size - If the upstream breaker , the one in the DB , is 20 Amp then 2,5sqmm wire is fine .



_6.15.4 Mixed loading of circuits
6.15.4.1 Except as allowed in 6.15.4.2, 6.15.4.3 and 6.16.3.2.3, there shall
be no mixed loading of circuits.
6.15.4.2 Except as required in 6.16, a non-dedicated single-phase circuit that
has overcurrent protection rated at not more than 20 A may supply a mixed
load of a combination of any socket-outlets rated at not more than 16 A,
luminaires and fixed appliances.
NOTE 1 The number of points need not be limited, but the diversity of loads should be
considered.
NOTE 2 Mixed circuits should be carefully considered since this may result in nuisance
tripping.
6.15.4.3 Socket-outlets rated at 16 A or more that are connected to circuits
with mixed loading shall comply with the earth leakage requirements of 6.7.5.
NOTE 1 See 7.1 for the conditions under which a socket-outlet may be installed in a
bathroom.
NOTE 2 See 6.16.1.6 for the conditions under which a socket-outlet may be used for
the connection of fixed appliances._

_6.16.5 Motors
NOTE Motors include the motors in automatic doors and gates, garbage disposal
units, pumps (pool, fountain, spa, etc.), and the like (see also 6.16.1)._

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## Firepool

> A socket circuit is allowed to feed fixed appliances as per reg6.15.4.2 
> A pool pump falls under reg 6.16 fixed appliances 
> The Circuit breaker should have been labeled as mixed loads 
> 
> With regards to the wire size - If the upstream breaker , the one in the DB , is 20 Amp then 2,5sqmm wire is fine .
> 
> 
> 
> _6.15.4 Mixed loading of circuits
> ...



Agree with that.The circuit should just be labelled mixed circuit .

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## ians

This could be a little tricky ... I get the feeling this isnt a mixed circuit but rather a breaker labelled "pool DB" with 2 wires .. one feeding the pool DB and the other the plugs ... maybe the DB was full. 

the question would be ... can you have a pool DB as part of a mixed circuit ... I can understand a "motor/pump" being part of a mixed circuit ... but a sub DB with a pump as part of a plug circuit in a sub DB? 

lets see some pictures of the DB and the bottom of the circuit breaker.

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## ians

Had another look at the part of the COC ... it looks like the only sub DB is in the garage.

Could the pool be one of those little pools with the built in pump and stuff at the weir ... plugged into a weatherproof plug ... back to back with a plug in one of the room. 

Its like playing a guessing game  :Smile:

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## GCE

> This could be a little tricky ... I get the feeling this isnt a mixed circuit but rather a breaker labelled "pool DB" with 2 wires .. one feeding the pool DB and the other the plugs ... maybe the DB was full. 
> 
> the question would be ... can you have a pool DB as part of a mixed circuit ... I can understand a "motor/pump" being part of a mixed circuit ... but a sub DB with a pump as part of a plug circuit in a sub DB? 
> 
> lets see some pictures of the DB and the bottom of the circuit breaker.


At the end of the day it is a fixed appliance and 6.16.5 makes actually mention of pool

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## ians

Let get this right ... if I have agate motor and a pool motor fed from the pool DB it marked as a mixed circuit ... in fact I have a very similar situation.

I have a cable from the main DB to a sub DB on the verandah ... from the sub DB I have a bunch of garden lights ... a pool DB and a gate motor on the same cable ... I have fitted a weather proof isolator at the gate for the gate lights and motor ... a DB at the pool with a light and pool pump ... and day/night switch in the garden feeding lights ... a mixed circuit label on the sub DB on the verandah all I need ?

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## Sparks

The weird and wonderful world SANS in the new SA, unbelieveably even more so than in the old SA. A sub-DB is not a fixed appliance. It is a remote sub-section of the main DB. It therefore stands to reason that each sub-DB must have a dedicated circuit capable of withstanding the total load of said sub-DB. Obviously it must have the correct designation both at the main DB and also at it's location. Fixed appliances on a "mixed" circuit must have isolating devices as must all other fixed appliances, either an isolator or be connected by means of a socket outlet capable carrying the load. A lighting circuit labelled as such may have unswitched lights connected through unswitched socket outlets.

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## Sparks

If the pool is connected to a plug circuit through an isolator only, yes, that would be a mixed circuit. Should there however be a "pool DB", not according to the COC, there must be a dedicated supply to that sub-DB. Any plugs/lights fed from that sub-DB must also be labelled as such to ensure compliance and safety when working on the installation. Maximum current capacities of thin cables must be adhered to as well.

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## ians

I installed a 16 amp mcb ... the only issue might be the socket on the pool DB which is wired with 2.5 mm wire ... i am sure there is a reg which stats min. 2.5 mm for socket outlets.

Which I do beleive makes many many old pool DB supplies illegal ... I have seen many old pool DB's wired with 1.5 mm x 2 core armoured cable ... this house I refer to in this post is why we have this issue ... the feed cable to the pool DB is only 1.5 mm. 

The way I understand a mixed circuit ... a garage for example which has plugs and lights on the same circuit both wired with 2.5 mm wire on a single 20 amp circuit breaker would be labelled as a mixed circuit.

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## Derlyn

I know of a whole suburb in East London where ALL the houses are wired only with 1,5mm T&E.
Only the stove circuit is 4mm.

Geysers the lot on 1,5mm.

Breakers are 10A lights, 15A plugs and geyser, 30A stove.

I did not issue a coc for the following reason.
The wire going to plugs was in conduit inside the wall.
Now according to Table 6.2(a) 1,5mm has a current carrying capacity of less than 15A if in conduit in the wall.
Had it been surface mounted ,  no problem.

Anyway, someone else provided a coc as is.

16A socket outlets must be wired with conductors that are rated at not less than 16A. 6.15.3.b.
1,5mm will be acceptible if surface mounted, but in conduit in the wall the rating drops to below 16A so unacceptable.

My 2cents worth.

Derek

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## ians

The 1.5 mm cable is buried directly in the ground ... and not in conduit ... so it would be ok ?

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## Derlyn

> The 1.5 mm cable is buried directly in the ground ... and not in conduit ... so it would be ok ?


Use table 6.11

Gets complicated with soil temperature, thermal resistivity, length etc.

If it's not in conduit, it should be ok with a 15A breaker depending of course on the distance.

Derek

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