# Social Category > South African Politics Forum >  DA Policies?

## Marq

Somebody dropped off a pamphlet in my letterbox.
Says Vote DA

Then says Through our policies we support:-
BEESustainable Land ReformSocial Grants
Sounds like the ANC even EFF.

I thought they were the opposition. From this is seems they are just another gang doing and promising the same thing to all the sheeple.

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## dix

DA looks good from a distance but when taking a closer look at it then you may see a lot of dirt, would say it's an advance form of late National Party

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xcorporation (17-Mar-14)

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## pmbguy

The DA has a problem in that they have to make compromises along the way to gain non-white votes and they suck anyway because all politicians are compromised. I think we should question the DA, but Question even more how shit it really is compared to the cANCer

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xcorporation (17-Mar-14)

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## dix

Basically DA was a strategy to win non-white votes because the National Party knew that they have no grounds to stand in the polls because of their oppressive system, hence they seduced non-whites into that form of National Party but what's the difference anyway because they always show their true colors when the polls are near by just like they did now.

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## HR Solutions

I used to feel this way as well, until you see what they have done in Cape Town.  The roads, the public transport, the cleanliness etc et.  They have a function for example in Seapoint - a night race or cycle race - the place is spotless by the morning after the cleanup !  They are def doing something right down there.

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## Justloadit

The decision is really, who is going to be the least corrupt, and at the very least leaving sufficient funds to actually use on social projects.

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## Marq

> I used to feel this way as well, until you see what they have done in Cape Town.  The roads, the public transport, the cleanliness etc et.  They have a function for example in Seapoint - a night race or cycle race - the place is spotless by the morning after the cleanup !  They are def doing something right down there.


Ok thats good service delivery and stuff I would expect as a rate payer. They are really doing a good job in this area.

but

This policy thing which says the same kak principles are in play as now, tells me that overall nothing will really change.
So we will have a clean polished look but the engine is still dirty under the hood and headed for the same scrapyard.

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## Dave A

No idea where dix got the idea of a connection between the Nats and the DA. 
Actually, the Nats joined the ANC.
(Which probably explains a few things).

I'd love someone from the DA to explain their ideas on BEE (i.e. practically how they would implement/achieve it). What I've seen so far is pretty confusing.

To my mind the obvious potential of the DA to be different from the ANC lies in other areas though -
No need to protect cronies from Arms Deal and other corruption related prosecutions
No need to pander to the Communist Party and COSATU's economic theories in order to keep them in bed

The ANC is carting some serious luggage around at the moment. And it's not doing the country and ordinary electorate any favours.

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## pmbguy

The DA will obviously have a long term plan, so if they ever won an election I suspect they will keep bbbee as promised, but they will at least start to address some of its biggest flaws. In a second term they might amend bbbee appropriately.

I think that where we see DA and ANC policy overlap is often where the DA is simply pushing for votes, not necessarily reflecting true long term DA policy.

Most importantly, even if the DA after victory does not change a single ANC policy, they would still run the country 50% better.

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## Marq

Assuming a DA/alliance win  :Cool: . 
The communists will probably just be a fringe party in the end.
I would think though that the trade unions/workers party could be a big thorn in the DA's side creating just as much if not more havoc than they do at present. The old ties to a defeated ANC could strengthen in their mutual defeat.

Increased jobs may save the day but cosatu and co do not seem to understand the economic benefit of a stable workforce. 
I am not sure if this has been addressed in any of the DA's policies.

So we seem to have an opposition (DA) that is trying to woo the masses by not having too many differing policies in that area, but it may be at the expense of the existing voter base and, business and international buy-in. 

The whole scenario starts being a bit superficial, with no substance and real reform which this country really needs to get economic growth and grow wealth for all.

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## pmbguy

The DA is calculating that current policy will draw in more people than it will lose, which is annoying, but if it works its well worth it.

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## xcorporation

The last i heard was we were suppose to be in civil war by now and the ANC and DA battled each other out; and a new party was in control ... oh the fiction ...

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## wynn

As I have stated on other threads;
The DA is the official opposition, they get my vote.
if the DA comes into power and the EFF becomes the official opposition the EFF will get my vote.

Always vote for the official opposition because no matter who is in power they have to be kept on their toes and the stronger the opposition the more party in power toes will twinkle.

I still believe that we need a genuine ANC not the present cANCer to run the country, but that the DA/EFF/Alliance need to be strong enough to keep them in check and occasionally out vote them on certain policies such as the 'Secrets Act'.

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## Alice Rain

I think you're 100%!

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## dix

> No idea where dix got the idea of a connection between the Nats and the DA. 
> Actually, the Nats joined the ANC.
> (Which probably explains a few things).
> 
> I'd love someone from the DA to explain their ideas on BEE (i.e. practically how they would implement/achieve it). What I've seen so far is pretty confusing.
> 
> To my mind the obvious potential of the DA to be different from the ANC lies in other areas though -
> No need to protect cronies from Arms Deal and other corruption related prosecutions
> No need to pander to the Communist Party and COSATU's economic theories in order to keep them in bed
> ...



What are they doing to improve the lives of black people from all over Western Cape because NP was doing the very same thing DA is doing today, the last thing I remember is that they provided bucket system for people of Khayelitsha, you would ask yourself ok it was a short term solution but where else was such an insulting thing done to the people?

Bringing that party back (National Party/DA) would mean black people will go an advance/modern apartheid system

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## Dave A

> Bringing that party back (National Party/DA) would mean


Denial is a river that runs through Egypt.




> What are they doing to improve the lives of black people from all over Western Cape because NP was doing the very same thing DA is doing today, the last thing I remember is that they provided bucket system for people of Khayelitsha, you would ask yourself ok it was a short term solution but where else was such an insulting thing done to the people?


Let's bring you up to speed then.




> Bucket system still rife in SA
> 2013-05-16 16:14
> Johannesburg - About 272 995 bucket toilet systems are still being operated by municipalities, Co-operative Governance Minister Richard Baloyi said on Thursday. 
> 
> "There was a time I thought the bucket system was gone... that it had exited our space, but this number came out when we were assessing the state of sanitation," Baloyi said in Kempton Park.
> 
> He was speaking at a conference on municipal audit outcomes, attended by mayors, municipal managers, heads of provincial departments, and Auditor General Terence Nombembe.
> 
> Baloyi did not say which municipalities still operated the bucket system.


I wonder why he didn't name the municipalities?

Well, here's one of them (seeing as you asked).

But perhaps more interestingly, here are some other hard numbers coming out of this story -  Storm erupts in South Africa over bucket toilets

Early last month _(that would be May 2013)_, Human Settlements Minister, Tokyo Sexwale, told Parliament that 2.278 million households in South Africa do not have toilets.

---
Early last month _(that would also be May 2013)_, the mayor of Cape Town, Patricia de Lille, said in a statement that her administration intends to replace all ‘bucket toilets’ with portable flush toilets, but the efforts are being resisted by some residents who prefer to use the former. 

Noting that there are 958 bucket toilets known and serviced by the city, she said they will nevertheless press on with replacing them in order to provide city residents with better services.

"The City is determined to replace any vestige of the bucket with portable flush toilets (PFTs). The City currently has approximately 12, 500 portable flush toilets (PFTs) in storage. These units will now be provided to areas identified as still using the 'bucket system' to ensure the complete eradication of this system," she said.

---
And of course the killer blow in comparing ANC vs DA performance in this regard just has to be -




> This is not the first time that South Africa has had to contend with a toilet-shortage-related crisis, one of the legacies of the apartheid era that ended in 1994. In 2009, South African media kicked up a storm when it exposed poor toilet facilities in the Free State and Cape Town. 
> 
> Mr Sexwale responded by instituting a commission in 2011 headed by Winnie Mandela to look into the matter and suggest possible solutions. The South African Government later set a deadline of December 2014 to eradicate bucket toilets.
> 
> However, the government is running behind its own schedule. According to local reports, the government this year cut the budget for rural toilets by 28 per cent from $48.9 million (about R479 million) to $35.7 million (about R350 million), meaning that it will have to cut back on the number of toilets it had earlier planned to build. 
> 
> With the government at sixes and sevens over how to sort out the toilet shortage problem across the country, it is likely that many poor South Africans will continue to use the hated bucket toilets for the foreseeable future, as Mr Sexwale conceded before Parliament in early May.


Dix, I do hope you're not just trying to wind me up to say "nice" things about the DA. And it's certainly not my intention. I generally try my best to be apolitical, and I've been very critical of the DA before.

But you really need to pick your battles carefully. When it comes to head-to-head comparisons between DA and ANC on a number of issues...
Well, you didn't pick a good one there I'm afraid.

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AndyD (19-Mar-14)

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## dix

I'm not sure whether we disagree or agreeing but let me rephrase myself in a better way, I never saw in this country a bucket system being replaced by a white bucket system (they changed the name and called it pota-pota) but the DA/NP which was always looking down on black people did it.

Note very well that there were buckets toilets in there (Khayelitsha) and the temporally solution would be to provide public flush toilets until those informal settlements are provided a better place were they can have inside flush toilets.

The facts speak here that the DA is still the same old National Party, ask yourself why did the administration of Zille provide open toilets for people of Makhaza in Khayelitsha (my answer is that they were black because she never did that to any of colords population who dwell in informal settlements).

Do you know how mana pota-pota were manufactured by that service provider and were all targeting black townships, and why would we say that it was a short term solution given such a number of pota-potas, besides the budget she used in those pota-potas far exceeds the budget to build nearby flush toilets, lets not mention that the service provider was white.

Moreover on the bucket system you just mentioned being used in some remote areas which the ANC led government is working it, the DA/NAtional Party government never gave it thought that those black people should receive flush toilets as well all because they were in remote areas.

Why is the number of black electorates so down in DA for parliamentary positions? and do you know that it was the decision of IEC that made them to increase the number of black electorates even though after the increase black representatives are still unacceptably very low.

Lastly do you know how many leaders of DA are involve in allegations having to do with racism? compare that with ANC

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## dix

Before you can answer that my friends, remember that in 1994 elections National Party won the Western Cape province and it's death was followed by the rise of DA of which members of NP joined or supported DA and hence DA/NP was victorious in the Western Cape in all elections that followed, can't you see that it is logical here to say that DA is NP in disguise?

 How many members of NP did join the ANC, who are they? are they still there?

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## Dave A

> The facts speak here that ...


Actually, some hard facts and numbers that support your opinion would prove useful.

So far we've accounted for just under 1000 bucket toilets in the country. Where are the other 272 000 and who is running the municipalities that they fall under?

Let's clear that one up before we move on to kort broek & co.

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## Marq

> Dix...Before you can answer that my friends, remember that in 1994 elections National Party won the Western Cape province and it's death was followed by the rise of DA of which members of NP joined or supported DA and hence DA/NP was victorious in the Western Cape in all elections that followed, can't you see that it is logical here to say that DA is NP in disguise?
> 
> How many members of NP did join the ANC, who are they? are they still there?


What was left of the the Nationalist Party was merged with the ANC. Its last leader Marthinus van Schalkwyk is still there today as Minister of Environmental affairs. 
I cannot recall one NP member that joined the DA which made its own way without the help of any other party. 

The DA comes out of the Progressive party which prior to that was the United Party. That party was set up in opposition to The NP and its apartheid principles. While people like yourself wish to ensure that all white people are painted with the apartheid brush, there were many who actually fought for the opposite. Its these people who you insult today with your vitriol and unresearched diatribe. Your logic is equally faulty.

I would suggest that if you wish to carry on with this method of debate, then you find some other forum to exercise your brainwashed flawed thinking.

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## HR Solutions

> DA is still the same old National Party





> The DA comes out of the Progressive party


I think you have a contradiction here !!

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## dix

> What was left of the the Nationalist Party was merged with the ANC. Its last leader Marthinus van Schalkwyk is still there today as Minister of Environmental affairs. 
> I cannot recall one NP member that joined the DA which made its own way without the help of any other party. 
> 
> The DA comes out of the Progressive party which prior to that was the United Party. That party was set up in opposition to The NP and its apartheid principles. While people like yourself wish to ensure that all white people are painted with the apartheid brush, there were many who actually fought for the opposite. Its these people who you insult today with your vitriol and unresearched diatribe. Your logic is equally faulty.
> 
> I would suggest that if you wish to carry on with this method of debate, then you find some other forum to exercise your brainwashed flawed thinking.



So Marq you saying to me that these other guys like you were unhappy with the apartheid system just that you couldn't avoid the benefits of it, sounds good just like Zille was unhappy with the apartheid system as a Journalist but kept the benefits and after the death of NP/DA she realize the need to form a political party that consisted mainly of white people and lured unsuspecting black people who were not aware of their dirty schemes to control our land again.

Guys we know that Britain contributed to the liberation of black people in South Africa because it was them who backed us while you people were buys gathering everything that belonged to us.

Dave cannot go further because I think I'm in agreement with you here not unless some-else clears the air for me

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## Marq

@Dix
Go and join the EFF forum. 
You can cry and blame, dig up the past and make up the all the history you want to hear over there.
But dont come back here and tell all how they lured an unsuspecting stirrer over and you dont understand the history they have over there either.

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## Dave A

Before we start getting _the moer in_ with each other here - chew on this thought for a moment please:




> You can cry and blame, dig up the past and make up the all the history you want to hear over there.


I'm not convinced Dix's views are entirely his own creation. You need to bear in mind there's been quite a long run now of propaganda at work trivialising "non-ANC" efforts against apartheid. That there are believers that this is the whole truth should come as no surprise.

Out of (not so idle) curiosity - how old are you, Dix?

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## pmbguy

Yes blame everything on apartheid and the white man. Without the arrival of europeans black people would not have these problems because there is a whole different set of problems in an Iron Age society.

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## dix

We need each other for trade purposes pmbguy but not to steal from each other, that's how we people work and it has always been like that until other white people came to claim belongings to our land from our peaceful fathers.

I'm 30 sir but can consider as older than all of you because I am

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Dave A (19-Mar-14)

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## Marq

> I'm not convinced Dix's views are entirely his own creation. You need to bear in mind there's been quite a long run now of propaganda at work trivialising "non-ANC" efforts against apartheid. That there are believers that this is the whole truth should come as no surprise.


Sure there's propaganda that's bent the history and these views are not of his making.

If you want to keep batting away with that propaganda, without listening, doing any research or applying any logic, while accusing those you dont know of stealing and being dirty then you better have a real good story, which I do not see here. In fact there has been no input to solve anything from that side.

This continual digging in the past, accusing all and sundry and crying into their porridge about apartheid is not going to help anyone go forward either. All its managing to do, is to maintain tension and draw lines in the sand.

While we are listening to, being patient with and chewing on all these thoughts that the sheeple do not want to process, the country is going backwards. I started this thread with the idea that the opposition was pandering to the supporters of the main party and questioned its focus. It was a discussion on policies which has been hijacked by an individual who would rather discuss bucket systems, apartheid and the national party, none of which are relevant to moving the people of this country in a positive direction.

So if he wants discuss the bucket system and tell us how kak everything is then he should rather start his own thread on this subject and see if he can rile anybody up there. The same was done on another thread this week which was discussing the anti-gay situation. It all very well and interesting seeing where threads end up but when they are taken on the same BS journey down this endless rabbit hole with accusations and rubbish it all becomes rather pointless.

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## dix

DA policies are there to tell us about what DA does and what it stands for, off which all that we were talking about here was centered on DA sir, if we are to debate then expect others to differ from you otherwise we will all pretend to be happy but inside we are full of hatred of which that doesn't help, now that you know that other black people are not happy with the current situation of South Africa that is knowledge you can use of which is the purpose of the debate but not to show anger or unfounded criticism.

Try to accommodate our differences and we will also do the same, and lastly I didn't join the forum to show anger against white people as you may perceive but to voice out my thoughts.  

Anti gay laws were started by me and I understand that some people at some cases might come up with other views that can be helpful at the end of the day and the idea is to let the conversation flow as long as it is directed to a certain point at the end, that's how I do it. 

  Peace up!!!

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## pmbguy

Dix I agree that we must work together. I also agree that Black Africans have been dispossessed from their land by White people, Same goes for when Black African tribes possessed the land of the San. We can go on and on and history will show that all peoples throughout time are at times the aggressor and at other times the victim. This cycle will continue forever until we stop using previous conflict with each other as fuel for further conflict.

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## Dave A

> I'm 30 sir but can consider as older than all of you because I am


Thanks, Dix. And rest assured I did not ask the question out of any desire to establish or question your level of maturity. 

What I wanted to understand better was exactly what events might have been part of your personal experience, and how much of your paradigm might be reliant on the retelling of history.

Kinda late in the evening for me to put together a long post arising from that awareness, but here's a suggestion for now - please consider researching Marq's post to verify for yourself whether the points he makes are actually fact. Of particular importance is his assertion that:




> The DA comes out of the Progressive party which prior to that was the United Party. That party was set up in opposition to The NP and its apartheid principles.


EDIT: Perhaps not needed now. I see as I was chewing over a reply, things have moved along to more constructive engagement  :Cool:

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## dix

If Marq doesn't mind us talking about these issues as you have raised such

To begin San people we call them Abathwa of which we Xhosa's descended straight from them as I have mentioned in the anti gay law as a comment, they are Africans and it's not right to separate them from us and moreover there was never wars among us but the fabricated lies of white people to separate us, the only difference is that they love to hunt and they are too peaceful and is the reason other black tribes praise Xhosa's of being peaceful but intelligent at the same time and you will notice if you know Xhosa's there is strong intermarriage between Xhosa's and Khoi people (San people is the name which we believe that because boors never fought against the Khoi people then they called them buy their gods (San/Sun).

As United Party is concerned, during it's formation why is it that they never supported ANC if they were against the Apartheid government and how did they benefited from that government if they were against the government as we.

Don't mean to disrespect anyone but this United Party is not worth of research, in the first place it was a white led party in the land of Africans and secondly there was once a merger between that United Party and NP/DA

Infect if you think they stood for any good, where did they disappear to? if not DA/NP

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## dix

I don't doubt my experiences and my abilities, that include my reasoning ability, is the reason I'm claiming to be old

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## ians

> I used to feel this way as well, until you see what they have done in Cape Town.  The roads, the public transport, the cleanliness etc et.  They have a function for example in Seapoint - a night race or cycle race - the place is spotless by the morning after the cleanup !  They are def doing something right down there.


They are working on it in Durban, been riding at 6 am on the weekends. Durban beachfront is a disgrace in the early hours. I  filmed my route with a go pro camera. I decided not to waste my time editing it. The filth, rubbish, the stench of piss, people sleeping on the grass banks, using the showers to wash, drunken fools causing trouble with my wife while she was walking, it is shocking. 

But on a positive note, there are police patrolling, hundreds of people walking cycling, doing group work outs, it is a buzz. There are fun runs from Sun coast. Good breakfast with excellent service at Circus Circus beach café. The coffee guys at the grass patch make a decent cup of coffee. With the bike and bean further on the north beach side, you could spend a R100 before you get to Blue lagoon. You then have to work off all the coffee and breakfast.

I am finding it is getting a little congested in the mornings. They are going to have to sort out cycle lanes up and down. Went up to Umhlanga to see if we could ride along the beach, not allowed bicycles along the promenade.

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## Dave A

> Don't mean to disrespect anyone but this United Party is not worth of research


If you don't know anything of them, how would you know?

And on the subject of respect, you might consider that continuing to imply that the DA and the NP are one and the same thing in the face of significant proof to the contrary is, in fact, disrespectful (whether it's intended or not).

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## HR Solutions

> If you don't know anything of them, how would you know?
> 
> And on the subject of respect, you might consider that continuing to imply that the DA and the NP are one and the same thing in the face of significant proof to the contrary is, in fact, disrespectful (whether it's intended or not).


Thanks Dave

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## pmbguy

> To begin San people we call them Abathwa of which we Xhosa's descended straight from them as I have mentioned in the anti gay law as a comment, they are Africans and it's not right to separate them from us and moreover there was never wars among us but the fabricated lies of white people to separate us, the only difference is that they love to hunt and they are too peaceful and is the reason other black tribes praise Xhosa's of being peaceful but intelligent at the same time and you will notice if you know Xhosa's there is strong intermarriage between Xhosa's and Khoi people (San people is the name which we believe that because boors never fought against the Khoi people then they called them buy their gods (San/Sun).


Sorry Dix, but I must correct you. The Xhosa are Nguni who moved from central Africa, from the great lakes to be specific. Xhosa shares its Nguni heritage with others like the Sawzi, Phuthi and Zulu. The Xhosa language is closely related to Zulu and other Nguni languages. isiXhosa famously has fifteen click sounds, originally borrowed from the San. The “borrowing” occurred when the Xhosa pushed into San territory in the east (Current day Eastern Cape). Through conflict and absorption, the San language and culture died in that area.

The Koi and the San have a similar language to each other, but separate cultures. Khoisan languages are completely different to that of the Nguni tribes. Their culture was/is also completely different. They are genetically different and have a different physical appearance. In all respects an autonomous separate culture to the Nguni. 

I reject your statement that the Xhosa are direct descendants of the San/Khoisan. More correctly stated, they are Nguni who, through the occupation of San territory, acquired some San genetics and clicking sounds to the language.

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## Dave A

Perhaps we should really try to get back to this -



> I started this thread with the idea that the opposition was pandering to the supporters of the main party and questioned its focus.


I tend to agree with Marq - it would seem they are pandering. 

The question is whether they've lost sight of the goal that we might achieve a genuinely non-racial society one day. Perhaps some see it as a means to getting a step closer...?
Dunno.

All I can say is whatever they've got going on in the back of their mind, it's hard to imagine it could be more racially discriminating than this brewing mess looming on the EE front.




> When historians look back, they will identify this almost unnoticed development as the moment when Verwoerdian racial engineering returned to South Africa, with a vengeance, as official government policy in a democratic South Africa.
> 
> The "story" I am referring to are the regulations, issued at the end of February by Labour Minister Mildred Oliphant, in terms of the Employment Equity Amendment Act.
> 
> These regulations require that companies that employ more than 150 people use the demographics of the "national economically active population" to fill positions in the three upper levels (top and senior management and professionally qualified) and an average of national and regional demographics for the three lower levels (skilled, semi-skilled and unskilled technical) when determining employment equity targets.
> 
> This means that, although coloured people in the Western Cape make up 49% of the population, they may only comprise 9% of professional and senior staff levels in any enterprise or institution. And the same applies to the Northern Cape, where coloured people constitute 40% of the population.
> 
> In KZN, where Indians make up 7% of the demographic profile, they should not be represented in a proportion of more than 2,5% in the top three levels of any enterprise.


Someone remind me again - what's the definition of "fair" racial discrimination?

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## Marq

> As United Party is concerned, during it's formation why is it that they never supported ANC if they were against the Apartheid government and how did they benefited from that government if they were against the government as we.
> 
> Don't mean to disrespect anyone but ..............


Here I go, sprouting out and disrespecting anyway.


This is like saying - well the EFF is against the ANC and so is the AWB - so they must have the same ideals and principles so should be together and oh ...they must be all benefiting from the ANC......look at all these opposition parties raking it in thanks to the ANC.

This is the continual illogical rubbish coming out and then is still continuing with 


> _in the first place it was a white led party in the land of Africans and secondly there was once a merger between that United Party and NP/DA_


Thats after he has been told to go and do some research.

As the Dragons say.....I'm out.

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## pmbguy

> Perhaps we should really try to get back to this -
> 
> I tend to agree with Marq - it would seem they are pandering. 
> 
> The question is whether they've lost sight of the goal that we might achieve a genuinely non-racial society one day. Perhaps some see it as a means to getting a step closer...?
> Dunno.
> 
> All I can say is whatever they've got going on in the back of their mind, it's hard to imagine it could be more racially discriminating than this brewing mess looming on the EE front.
> 
> ...



Zille

“The regulations show how the national government will measure "equitable representation" -- on the basis of national demographics, irrespective of regional population ratios...... This means that, although coloured people in the Western Cape make up 49% of the population, they may only comprise 9% of professional and senior staff levels in any enterprise or institution...
...We will continue to implement rational employment equity policies, but we will certainly oppose racial quotas in every way possible. We will continue ensuring that every hard-working, dedicated and qualified individual has a fair chance to build their career...
...In the DA we will continue to expose the decline of a once honourable organisation into a racist oligarchy, whose leaders prey on the poor to feed themselves”

ANC policy is Racist Democracy. DA Policy is Democracy. Simple as that.

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## Dave A

> ANC policy is Racist Democracy.


There certainly is increasing evidence that points that way.




> DA Policy is Democracy. Simple as that.


Meh - In a thread that has shown the importance of foundation, I must in fairness ask - where's the evidence?

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## pmbguy

> Meh - In a thread that has shown the importance of foundation, I must in fairness ask - where's the evidence?


Evidence?  I can only look at their policies 

The DA is against the racist undemocratic laws of the ANC like the employment quota system. The DA is democratic because it’s essential policy is one of true equality regardless of race. This true equality is key to democracy if not democracy itself.

In equal fairness can anybody produce evidence/policy that the DA is undemocratic?

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## Dave A

OK. So how are they going to implement BEE?

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## dix

> Here I go, sprouting out and disrespecting anyway.
> 
> 
> This is like saying - well the EFF is against the ANC and so is the AWB - so they must have the same ideals and principles so should be together and oh ...they must be all benefiting from the ANC......look at all these opposition parties raking it in thanks to the ANC.
> 
> This is the continual illogical rubbish coming out and then is still continuing with 
> 
> Thats after he has been told to go and do some research.
> 
> As the Dragons say.....I'm out.


Thanks for quoting my questions, others preferred to ignore them and asked a question from a question, perhaps you have answers?

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## pmbguy

> OK. So how are they going to implement BEE?


tricky, my thoughts so far...




> The DA will obviously have a long term plan, so if they ever won an election I suspect they will keep bbbee as promised, but they will at least start to address some of its biggest flaws. In a second term they might amend bbbee appropriately.
> 
> I think that where we see DA and ANC policy overlap is often where the DA is simply pushing for votes, not necessarily reflecting true long term DA policy.


The DA has to choose their battles carefully. They can’t try and change all ANC policies in one swoop, they have to compromise in order to succeed. If they are successful they will make less and less compromises until true equality is reached. 

The DA maintains that some form of bbbee is needed because frankly it is, the aim is to make it work so that one day we don't need it anymore. Reaching this stage without destroying the country in the process like the ANC is doing. The DA will almost certainly run bbbee better, Less corruption, less damaging to business in SA etc

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## dix

> Sorry Dix, but I must correct you. The Xhosa are Nguni who moved from central Africa, from the great lakes to be specific. Xhosa shares its Nguni heritage with others like the Sawzi, Phuthi and Zulu. The Xhosa language is closely related to Zulu and other Nguni languages. isiXhosa famously has fifteen click sounds, originally borrowed from the San. The borrowing occurred when the Xhosa pushed into San territory in the east (Current day Eastern Cape). Through conflict and absorption, the San language and culture died in that area.
> 
> The Koi and the San have a similar language to each other, but separate cultures. Khoisan languages are completely different to that of the Nguni tribes. Their culture was/is also completely different. They are genetically different and have a different physical appearance. In all respects an autonomous separate culture to the Nguni. 
> 
> I reject your statement that the Xhosa are direct descendants of the San/Khoisan. More correctly stated, they are Nguni who, through the occupation of San territory, acquired some San genetics and clicking sounds to the language.


The Africans hardly wright down their history and it was done by the arrival of western people by picking up what they called facts but we hardly had any history of our own written down, that is why I'm telling you this is a fabricated story you did read and remember the boors have been separating black people since their arrival in Africa, you don't have to look back very hard (IFP was continuously supplied with weapons that they fight the Xhosa people, you can find that on internet, and all other many tribal problems we have starting with South Africa and our African brothers, for these days they are called foreigners but according to our ideology as Africans they were never called so untill the arrival of the western people.

Lastly Abathwa/Khoi people are hunters, therefore they move around a lot and so if you meet them around Western Cape it is because of hunting just like they were seeking to hunt cattle's in the Eastern Cape.

Ask any Khoi whom do they closely relate to in these African tribes, perhaps that will help you and I'm first reference because I was born through Xhosa parents (That is called hearing from the horses mouth in English)

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## Marq

> OK. So how are they going to implement BEE?


The launch was met with mixed reviews, but it went downhill when James, a senior DA member and MP, battled to reconcile the new policy with the party's commitment to non-racialism on PowerFM with host Eusebius Mckaiser on Tuesday.
He admitted after a long to-and-fro that the party would replace BEE with "diversity economic empowerment" if it were in power.
Policy rewrite
He said yes when McKaiser asked if the party would rewrite the policy if it was in power to remove the B in BEE, and replace it with a D for diversity, with no reference to the word black.
"So the DA is not into black economic empowerment, it is into diversity economic empowerment, is that a correct summary, Dr James?" asked McKaiser.
"That sounds a bit clumsy but that does summarise our position, yes," said James.
http://mg.co.za/article/2013-09-11-t...he-das-dilemma

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pmbguy (20-Mar-14)

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## pmbguy

> (That is called hearing from the horses mouth in English)


You should have mentioned that straight away because science and reason obviously don’t apply when your mamma said...

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## HR Solutions

Dix I personally don't agree with a lot you have said, but your "sarcastic" reply every time someone posts something you disagree with doesn't really go down with me, as Im sure a few people, therefore you win.

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## Marq

I dont believe one can implement any form of BEE without the same problems that it currently creates.
It cannot promote job creation (their main by-line in this regard) as it does not promote real investment. 
It has created endless argument and concern and the only true winners so far have been the people in charge of implementing it and their partners in crime.
What 'truly BB BEE' is, that the DA is expounding, is anyone's guess.

We seem to have forgotten that the main aim of this policy was to develop long term sustainability, stability and economic growth in South Africa. Instead it has been used as vengeful tool against whites, apparently all of whom are guilty of crimes of apartheid and an implement used for manipulating cronyism, tenderitis and increasing the wealth of the few in charge. The reason we have forgotten is that it was introduced 20 years ago and has no end date.

I think we should rather generate growth in targeted locations/areas/business types/race groups/whatever, through limited time and value tax incentives and trade grants.
We should bring back a proper investment in basic training through internships and apprenticeships to get skills back up to a level, which will increase earning capacities and productivity.
We should be utilising the skill base thats left in this country to mentor and create further interest and stop chasing it away.
We should be reviewing and enhancing the labour laws in this regard and learning from the current scenario of unemployment, wage demands, strikes, endless ccma complaints and other practices that are not conducive to increasing productivity.  

Bottom line for me is that I cannot support any group/party/gang that includes BEE as one of its main policies in any form.

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Dave A (20-Mar-14)

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## Marq

Regarding land reform. The last paragraph of this report from 2011 Institute of Race Relations suggests that there is a purposeful misleading of the situation by the ANC to try and create discontentment and so harness more votes. That was in 2011 prior to the governments current increase in activity to obtain more land at little value.

The above threads ridiculous comments regarding a manufactured history is either a product of a poor education or a disrespectful attempt to undermine the white population left in the country. Either way it is of no value to the discussion of land reform. 

Land reform should be investigated purely on a use thereof. It would appear that the majority of contentious areas relates to farming. South Africa has apparently become a net importer of produce. This can be attributed to bad land management, planning, farm security and policies such as land reform where recipients which have failed to produced anything of value to the country. Farming is a long term investment and the majority of people invest their whole lives in this business. It is not something that can be uprooted overnight and replaced in an instant. It is not something that works through threat and intimidation. 

To carry on with such a policy with its current vengeful principles is only going to lead to less produce and more imports. Another drain on the economy with an obvious ending.

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## Marq

Onto - Social Grants.

This bloated welfare state that the ANC has created, has produced much concern to the tax paying citizens.
It keeps lots of poor people alive and children safe. 
One cannot just stop it, so it would have to carry on.
So this is probably a question of refinement and better administration.

I cannot find anything as to how the DA will use grants to lift the people out of poverty.

One possible solution to uplift the economy is to try and get something in return for the grants.
Say .....some labour.

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## Blurock

> Onto - Social Grants.
> 
> This bloated welfare state that the ANC has created, has produced much concern to the tax paying citizens.
> It keeps lots of poor people alive and children safe. 
> One cannot just stop it, so it would have to carry on.
> So this is probably a question of refinement and better administration.
> 
> I cannot find anything as to how the DA will use grants to lift the people out of poverty.
> 
> ...



According to our gardener, his neighbour has 12 children, mainly so that he can benefit from social grants.

Replace the cash with food coupons as in most countries and much of the problem will be solved.

I do not see the DA as the saviours of South Africa. They are just another bunch of politicians with a slightly cleaner record than the ANC. The embarrassing and sometimes childish acts of their leaders does not appeal to me and some of their policies does not make sense at all.

They do however have the potential for a better administration as demonstrated in the Western Cape and they are an alternative to the corruption and plundering that is happening around us. Some of the smaller parties may have good credentials, but still have to prove themselves in administration.

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## HR Solutions

Dix - just to get this out in the open.  I do not appreciate getting a private message from you accusing me and others on this forum of racism and "talking badly about blacks". As I have replied to you I have NEVER ever made a derogatory racist post.  I am not that kind of person.  Therefore refrain from messaging me and unjustly accusing me of things.

I would strongly recommend that you get rid of the chip on your shoulder and don't bring race into a discussion.  We are all grown up people here and try and have  moved on from the past.  It does not mean if we discuss politics, the past or the future politics, that we are racists !!!! Get over yourself.

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## Butch Hannan

Why not enter into a contract with politicians soliciting votes as I do not trust any of them:-
Would we have politicians if we made them sign a contract for our vote? This contract could take the following format.

I Joe Politician for your vote Joe Voter undertake to do the following for you:-

a. I will not sleep in Parliament.
b. I will not submit false claims to get extra money.
c. I will stop all bribery, corruption and graft in our country.
d. I will make sure that everyone who wants to work will get a job.
e. I will make sure that every family will have a house.
f. I will eradicate all crime.
g.I will make sure that everyone will have access to decent and affordable health care.
h. I will sort out the education system.

Should I Joe Politician within six months have failed to achieve all the above I will resign my position and will not be entitled to receive any gratuity of any nature whatsoever. Furthermore as I have not earned my last six months salary I undertake to pay it to a nominated charity.

Signed Joe Politician____________                              Signed Joe Voter____________

Would we still have politicians?  What a wonderful dream.

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Dave A (03-Apr-14)

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## Dave A

> What a wonderful dream.


I *do* like the idea, though.

Just add one line and I think we're onto something.

"I further undertake to pay all legal costs on a party to party basis that the voter may incur enforcing this contract should I fail to honour the terms hereof. "

Under those conditions, my vote is for sale. 
The first political party to sign the contract has my vote.

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## Marq

My extra line edit would include:-

I will ensure that you pay the minimum of tax/rates and promise not to sit in endless meetings designing new ways to suck your hard earned money into our coffers.

This list could grow.............

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## wynn

My line edit would read
"I promise to do whatever it takes to make sure that Government does not interfere with your daily life or business unnecessarily."

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## IanF

My contribution
I will do this as a calling and not a profession, so excess pay received will be paid back to the Fiscus.

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## Butch Hannan

This is a true story. In the late seventies we were asking  the then government to build an English high school in Middelburg Mpumalanga. We were at that point in time sending our children to Witbank by bus. Government turned our request down even though we had the numbers to justify having our own school. There was an election at that time and I received a visit from the KP candidate. I wrote on a sheet of paper words to the effect, " I A Hannan will vote for you if you can guarantee that you will start building an English high school in Middelburg before the end of the year"  There was place  for my signature and his signature. I signed the document and handed it to him. He looked at the document, shook his head got up and walked out of my house. The parents and big business raised the R3M required to start the school and Steelcrest High School became a reality.

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