# General Business Category > Business Finance Forum >  The new cheque deposit fee for business accounts at Standard Bank

## Troll

Standard Bank has introduced a new fee for business current accounts - a cheque deposit fee - effective from 1st January 2011.

I visited my business banker at Standard Bank yesterday and raised the topic of this *new* fee for cheque deposits into business accounts (and I stress "new"). It was a fairly revealing discussion.

Apparently the managers were gathered together in meetings and informed of this new fee last year. He says when the announcement was made that they were introducing this fee, the room went *very* quiet. They're aware that it could be trouble.

It also seems Standard Bank is pretty keen to keep the introduction of this new fee as low-profile as possible, which I guess explains why I didn't get the usual annual notification of fee changes with my bank statements as has happened in the past. When I raised the lack of notice, he said they didn't really want to draw attention to the new fee. Apparently we should all be aware that there is an annual increase in fees anyway and Standard Bank believes that publishing the new rates card on their website is enough notice.

I'm sure all tree huggers are delighted, but I suggested that the banking ombudsman might not be quite as satisfied with their approach.

We tossed a few other points around - the cost of processing cheques, security and risk issues... basicly a debate around "justification" for the new charge.

The bottom line is banks would like to see the end of cheques. I agree. They're way too much trouble. Let's get rid of them, but this is not the way to do it.

The extra financial costs of paying by cheque is doing a pretty good job of thinning out cheque usage already. It's only a matter of time before they become scarce enough to simply discontinue as a method of payment.

My parting shot was that I've been a good client of Standard Bank for a long time. The staff are pleasant to deal with and overall the bank has been reliable and trustworthy. When it comes to costs, none of the big 4 really stand out as being much different from the others overall anyway. I have never really seen a good reason to look elsewhere - until now. 

I view this sneaky approach as a serious breach of trust and it brings a significant new cost into the mix - at least for me. I still like the frontline people, but I don't trust the attitude of top management anymore. They have become way to arrogant.

Anyway, I don't think businesses should just let the matter lie. Standard Bank is trying to sneak this through and are hoping the other banks will follow.

For those of us banking with Standard Bank, I have a couple of suggestions.

First - go into the bank, see your business manager and let him or her know you *strongly* object to them introducing this new fee - *at all*, let alone without proper notice.

Bodies count, people.
*Don't* leave it to someone else.
*Don't* leave it to a business body to voice your displeasure for you.
*Don't* wait.
Queues of people wanting to see their manager and tying up just 15 minutes of his/her time each will *not* go unnnoticed. 

The managers are wondering what might happen. I suggest the sooner they find out, the better.

I also suggest it isn't just Standard Bank clients that are on the line here. If the business world just rolls over and plays dead, I (and I suspect my business manager at Standard Bank) am pretty confident the other big banks will introduce this charge too.

And if that isn't incentive enough for you, my business manager refunded the cheque deposit fees charged to my account so far. Any future ones I'm expected to live with, but I did get something back. If you don't try, you don't get.

Second, I suggest you take a close look at options. At R12.50 per cheque, it doesn't take many cheques to add up to more than minimum charge for a business account elsewhere. Moving a business account is not easy, but if Standard Bank does not drop this charge, I'm opening an account specifically for cheque deposits elsewhere. I'll transfer the money to my Standard account in lump sums - if I need too. 

And all my new business will be going elsewhere too. Who knows - if they treat me nicely, they might end up with *all* my business in the end.

Finally - for any banking types reading this - I face one final dilemma - which bank to choose.

Here's my offer -

The first bank to run an advert in mainstream media that they *do not charge their business account holders for cheque deposits* gets my business.

I don't know how far this message will reach. You don't know how much that advert might be worth.

Standard Bank wants to play dice? Let's play dice, gentlemen.

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## Dave A

> It also seems Standard Bank is pretty keen to keep the introduction of this new fee as low-profile as possible, which I guess explains why I didn't get the usual annual notification of fee changes with my bank statements as has happened in the past.


 :Hmmm:  I've checked - I didn't get the usual annual notice with my bank statements either.



> And if that isn't incentive enough for you, my business manager refunded the cheque deposit fees charged to my account so far. Any future ones I'm expected to live with, but I did get something back. If you don't try, you don't get.


I've just got back from bitching to my manager about this new fee. I didn't even have to ask for a refund. He offered it. Very similar drill though - does not apply to future deposits - it's just his way of saying sorry.



> I'm opening an account specifically for cheque deposits elsewhere.


I thought of doing just that, but I have a problem. Most of my clients pay directly into my bank account and I have no control over *how* they are paying.

The whole pricing system has been geared towards encouraging EFTs. It's great - the best way to get paid. No bounced cheques, lowest costs, the funds are cleared immediately - everyone's a winner. But the best way to make it easy for my clients is to make sure my company bank account details are printed on every invoice. Most invoices I receive do much the same.

Even if I add something along the lines of "If paying by cheque, please call me first" it's going to take some time to have any affect. And I'm not convinced it's the sort of message we should be sending out anyway. Overall it could have a negative impact on payments.  :Frown: 



> And all my new business will be going elsewhere too.


That's pretty much what I'm thinking at the moment. It won't be much use though if all the other banks start charging this fee too.

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## Chrisjan B

Sneaky bastards!

I had something similar a few years ago on my ABSA credit card - a new monthly fee that started at R 8-00 per month and now up  to R 12-00 a month. Also there were no cash deposit fee for credit cards - I use to pay in my cash into my credit card and transfer it in bulk to my cheque account for debit orders and electronic payments. 

With ABSA there were no fee increase last year, but hey sneak in these type of charges - the give here but take it back in double some other place.

As I have said in a previous post - a licence to steal...

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## Justloadit

I wanna be a bank, I wanna be a bank, oh can I?

I am working on something, when its ready I will communicate.

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## Dave A

> I don't know how far this message will reach.


6 hours later... let's see  :Detective: 



Seems the onsite SEO is still working well after the upgrade  :Cool: 

The bad news is I don't see any mention of this new fee anywhere else  :EEK!: 

EDIT: OMG - no.1 for "business account cheque deposit fee"

EDIT EDIT: Actually that shouldn't be a surprise. I've done quite a few searches now.

It looks like Standard Bank may have achieved a global first - *Could Standard Bank be the first bank in the world to charge business account holders a fee for depositing cheques?*

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## BusFact

This one irritates me too. Glad to see I'm not alone. 

It is of little use to penalise me with fees when I have limited control over how I get paid. The writer of the cheque already gets whacked with fees. All it does is create more aggravation with the bank system.

They have essentially made their problem ours. They want to eliminate cheques. So instead of saying: by such and such date, we will no longer be processing any cheques .... they rather make it our job to individually contact customers to discourage them from cheque payments. We become the bad guys instead of the banks.

If they don't want to trade in them then don't. 

On a side note: It is a good idea to have two bank accounts with different banks anyway. Its useful to be able to play them off against each other and will allow your business to continue if something goes wrong with the other. For eg: relationship sours or even a short term issue such as internet banking down.

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## Dave A

After sleeping on it...

I suggest this represents a quantum leap in attitude by Standard Bank. It's time to draw a line in the sand, really.

If it's a case of they want to get rid of cheques, then this is effectively a penalty fee for receiving cheques. That's as valid an argument as saying invisible policing stops reckless driving.

My manager mentioned nothing about banks wanting to get rid of cheques, although he did say they considered them an insecure method of payment. He says this new fee is as a result of the costs associated with processing a cheque.
Really? 

Have costs really climbed so much more than the service fee increases on cheques, they need an additional levy to cover the gap?
Or perhaps they're trying to shift the cost burden across payer and payee, in which case we could expect a reduction in cheque service fees?

If either of these possible reasons were actually true, why the big sneak approach? Why the lack of notice?

Just what is the bank's view of business account holders? A captive cash cow or a valued client that should be treated with some measure of respect?

Even if there's a processing cost issue at stake here, I'm reminded of the Raymond Ackerman quote about loss leaders _"An island of loss in a sea of profits."_ The banking industry must surely be aware of the compound effect of having a business account on their books. Most of my employees bank with Standard because I bank with Standard. Their income gets into their bank account that much faster, and many of them seem to care about that.

Then there's additional services - asset finance, possibly insurance products...

Here's my closing thought on this from me, at least for today.

Even if the other banks follow Standard's lead and this becomes yet another unavoidable cost of banking for the business community in this country, there is one thing that won't go away:

Standard Bank will always have been the first.
They started it, and that's going to sit in the memory banks.

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## Justloadit

I think that cheques will always remain as a form of payment. I look at the trusts which that I am involved in, payment requires two signatures. Whilst this can be done with internet payment, and if you are with Stranded, a dedicated PC with it's own ADSL line, Stranded bank loaded software, which can only be done by Stranded bank, and then set up that one person can setup the payment, and two people can authorize the payment. 

Now I am not sure if the authorization can be done on any internet connection, but I do not think so because the business internet package has to be installed by Stranded, means that the authorization has to be done on the local PC. 

The inconvenience of authorizing payment then is a  major factor.  In my case there are maybe 3 or 4 payments a month, so the inconvenience of the Stranded bank is paramount. With a cheque, a driver simply comes past my office and I sign. Yes the cost of the driver is a factor, but it is at my convenience though, and is cheaper than me physically driving over to the PC location and getting onto the internet to authorize payment.

I am sure they did consider this, and probably thought of another way to bring in cash.

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## Troll

> Standard Bank will always have been the first.
> They started it, and that's going to sit in the memory banks.


That is not going to be worth much if no-one notices.

I am surprised business and financial journalists in mainstream media haven't picked up on this. I haven't seen a single report or comment. 

I would have thought it is newsworthy and there isn't much else happening.

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## AndyD

It's not going to be worth much till there's a bank that thinks differently. At the moment you can choose between Kermit, Fozzie and Gonzo, it might look like there's differences at a distance but they're all Muppets when it comes down to it. *_definately no smiley_*

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## Troll

When I checked this thread this morning I noticed this.



That might not be exactly what I wanted, but I am going to pay them a visit on Monday anyway.

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## Dave A

:Stick Out Tongue: 

Considering the top keywords and phrases in this thread so far, that is *really* interesting.

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## Troll

I have done a cost comparison on FNB vs Standard for our accounts. It turns out in our case the service fee costs at FNB will be nearly half our service fee costs at Standard Bank - and that's without factoring in this new cheque deposit fee.

The down side of an FNB account is you are charged a R41.00 per month service fee just for having the account. Standard Bank has a minimum charge, but it doesn't take much activity to reach that fee so effectively there is no base cost.

Where FNB really starts gaining ground is the way they charge EFTs. It's a flat rate of R7.20 per transaction whereas Standard Bank charges R4.70 + 0.73% with a maximum charge of R18.30. So on an EFT payment of just R1000.00 the fee at FNB is R7.20 and at Standard it's R12.00
The break-even point is a payment of R342.47.

With debit card purchases, FNB charges a flat rate of R2.75 and Standard charges R4.15 + 0.67% with a maximum charge of R16.50.

This has become a very easy decision to make. We're moving.

Thanks Standard Bank for ticking me off with your new fee. You have just saved my companies a lot of money in bank charges.

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Dave A (17-Jan-11)

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## Dave A

Come on - there has to be a catch.  :Detective: 

If Standard Bank is pleading poverty and has to invent new charges to cope, how the heck does FNB get the same job done so much cheaper?

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## SilverNodashi

As matter of interest, can one pass those cheque processing fees directly to the client? I.e. can I force them to pay for it, if they insist on paying by cheque?

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## Dave A

> can I force them to pay for it, if they insist on paying by cheque?


If the client will accept the charge, I don't see a law or contract with the bank preventing it. You would have to disclose the charge upfront though, I think.

I suspect the biggest hassle would be pursuading the client to pay the charge, especially if it is only raised near the end of the deal.

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## SilverNodashi

> If the client will accept the charge, I don't see a law or contract with the bank preventing it. You would have to disclose the charge upfront though, I think.
> 
> I suspect the biggest hassle would be pursuading the client to pay the charge, especially if it is only raised near the end of the deal.


I'm sure I read / heard somewhere that we can't charge 5% credit card fees on top of sales price, so I'm curious if this is the same with cheque  payments?

Our smallest hosting package is R15, so R12.50 bank fee on that is a killer and if a client insist on using a chequebook instead of EFT / Credit Card / Bank Deposit

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## Dave A

> I'm sure I read / heard somewhere that we can't charge 5% credit card fees on top of sales price, so I'm curious if this is the same with cheque  payments?


That is a standard condition in credit card merchant agreements. I'm not aware of any such clause in the TOS for current accounts.

Rudi, I'd seriously suggest you open a non-Standard Bank account rather than charge your clients a cheque deposit fee. You would be placing yourself at a distinct competitive disadvantage otherwise.

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## IanF

When we got our speedpoint from FNB we were told we can't charge more when charging a credit card, but we could offer a cash discount. 

Now if you get a cash deposit in your FNB account you get charged a fee with a minimum on R17 odd. So now if customers want to deposit cash for the orders on paperkutz we insist they add the R17 to the order. We did a R30 order and got charged the R17. So just like you watch your cellphone account you have to watch your bank account.

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## Justloadit

> When we got our speedpoint from FNB we were told we can't charge more when charging a credit card, but we could offer a cash discount. 
> 
> Now if you get a cash deposit in your FNB account you get charged a fee with a minimum on R17 odd. So now if customers want to deposit cash for the orders on paperkutz we insist they add the R17 to the order. We did a R30 order and got charged the R17. So just like you watch your cellphone account you have to watch your bank account.


Ian,

You have to negotiate with the bank when it comes to this CDF. We negotiated to a pretty good rate, but then again large volumes of cash do get deposited daily.

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## IanF

> Ian,
> 
> You have to negotiate with the bank when it comes to this CDF. We negotiated to a pretty good rate, but then again large volumes of cash do get deposited daily.


 The only cash that is deposited is from customers, we encourage EFTs. We have 1 or 2 cash deposits per month, just the shock of the bank eating all your profit riles me!

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## Dave A

I just got a call from Standard Bank. The cheque deposit fee on business accounts has been suspended and fees charged so far will be credited back into my accounts.

The lass did stress the fee has been *suspended* - it may be re-introduced again at some point in the future.

It pays to voice your objections, folks. Although "victory" in this case may be temporary...  :Frown:

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## Dave A

Two things to report:

First - no sign of the promised refund for the cheque deposit fees raised so far.

Second - I've just picked up another new fee that wasn't there before - a monthly management fee of R28 per month.

Not nearly the same kind of financial effect as the cheque deposit fee, but still - yet another fee added to the program.

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## IanF

Between the banks and the cellphone companies they are as bad as each other. A necessary evil and they have no moral guidance with the new ways they dream of ripping us off. Also they don't seem to care if  their names are dragged through the mud. I saw the other day that MTN responds quickly if you complain through twitter, but that will change.

Competition, what competition oligopoly rules in SA!

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## IanF

Standard Bank seem to have publically said they will suspend the fee for 3 months. Moneyweb The reason for "seem to" is the PR guys always manage to twist out of statements they make.



> Standard Bank (JSE:SBK) last week suspended a newly introduced cheque deposit fee for its business segment following complaints from some angry customers. The move will see Africa’s largest bank by assets refunding business customers the full cheque deposit fees it collected from them since the beginning of the year.
> 
> Standard Bank said it had suspended the fee for three months. The suspension leaves Absa (JSE:ASA) as the only bank that charges business clients fees for cheque deposits on branch counters.
> 
> Standard Bank had introduced a deposit fee of R12.50 for each cheque deposited, prompting some customers to complain on various forums. Some customers contacted the bank to deal with the matter.
> 
> The bank said it spoke to its customers and the branch network on January 26, to clear the matter and pledged to refund business customers affected. It added this was a demonstration that Standard Bank is a “customer centric organisation” that acts on the concerns of its customers.

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Dave A (03-Feb-11)

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## Dave A

Well worth reading the full article. Clearly this isn't over.

I see ABSA has also introduced a cheque deposit fee for business clients. It's R10 *per deposit* as opposed to *per cheque*. It only affects over-counter cheque deposits; depositing a cheque via ATM does not attract the charge.



> Absa said for small business customers the fee was introduced from February 1, 2011 and for retail customers the fee will come into effect on March, 1

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## Troll

Sing it with me

It's too late now
Oh baby it's too late now.
I've got someone new
In place of you
And I'm gone, gone, gone.

We've moved. FNB even did all the hard work for us. I just gave them copies of the last 3 months bank statements and they did all the sorting out of debit orders. The only pain has been notifying all our existing customers, but that seems to have gone well so far. I even got some phone calls of support for the move. It may even turn into good PR.  :Big Grin:

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## Blurock

Banks need to be more effective in their business of taking deposits and lending to Businesses. Their top executives earn too much and they are more aligned to shareholders than clients and staff. Fire only one top executive with a package of R20mil p.a.(they can easily crop head office expenses) and you can fund the service fees of 40,000 businesses (@ average of R400 ! pm).
The bonus system leads to unscrupulous practices such as unwarranted fee increases etc. They do not inform clients because they must be ashamed of their actions.

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## Dave A

> We've moved.


At least keep the Standard Bank account open until they get round to processing the refund.  :Stick Out Tongue:

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## Chrisjan B

> Well worth reading the full article. Clearly this isn't over.
> 
> I see ABSA has also introduced a cheque deposit fee for business clients. It's R10 *per deposit* as opposed to *per cheque*. It only affects over-counter cheque deposits; depositing a cheque via ATM does not attract the charge.


Dave where did you see this? I am with ABSA and haven't been informed.

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## Dave A

Five paragraphs from the end in this story on Moneyweb, Chrismine.

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Chrisjan B (03-Feb-11)

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## Chrisjan B

There is another small problem - my business built up a history over time so almost all cheques I pay in over the counter is immediately available.
When paid in via an ATM there is a 10 day hold on the cheque.

Very clever the banks ain't they?

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## Blurock

There is no justification for Standard Bank to charge this fee. We already pay fees on our cheque accounts. If a Standard bank client receives a cheque payment from another Standard bank client, it means that both the issuer and the receiver will be charged for the same cheque! Surely this must be illegal! 
It may well be that this "directive" did not come from head office, but may be a "get rich quick scheme" by some local managers to boost their profits. Some Standard bank clients in the Western Cape have reported that their managers are not aware of this fee. Does any one know more about this and where the instruction came from? :Detective:

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## Dave A

It's in the business pricing brochure on their website. I think it's safe to say it's national.

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## BusFact

> ... Surely this must be illegal! ...


No, I can't see why it would be. They can charge what they like. In turn we can take our business where we want ... sort of.

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## Dave A

> There is no justification for Standard Bank to charge this fee. We already pay fees on our cheque accounts. If a Standard bank client receives a cheque payment from another Standard bank client, it means that both the issuer and the receiver will be charged for the same cheque! Surely this must be illegal!





> No, I can't see why it would be.


(Illegal).

I'm not so sure of that. I vaguely recall that when an agent is facilitating a transaction between two parties, it's illegal for that agent to charge both parties. They're obliged to charge one or the other.

Whether I'm right, and if so whether it's statutory or common law I cannot say for certain. But it wouldn't surprise me if there's something along these lines lurking in Roman Dutch law that the foreign consultants who advised the banks on these charges weren't aware of.

As far as I know, the receiving bank gets some slice of the cheque fee raised against the drawer. If they also charged the depositor of the cheque, they'd be receiving funds from both parties.

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## Blurock

Maybe this is something that needs further investigation. In the US there are so many activist attorneys, you would have had a class action against the banks in no time. Unfortunately we SAffies are too complacent or lazy. We just accept what ever the govt. or big business throw at us....

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## BusFact

> (Illegal).
> 
> I'm not so sure of that. I vaguely recall that when an agent is facilitating a transaction between two parties, it's illegal for that agent to charge both parties. They're obliged to charge one or the other.


Thats very interesting. I've never heard of it before, but would love it if someone could confirm it with some more details.
As they say ... you live and learn.

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## Dave A

> ...would love it if someone could confirm it with some more details.


Me too. And after a little Googling - If anyone has a copy of Wille's principles of South African Law lying around, the fun starts on page 984...

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## Dave A

Has anyone else not seen this cheque deposit fee refund yet? I've got one business account that received the refund a couple of weeks ago, but another hasn't received the refund yet.

And on the subject of bank fees, seen on TFSA (sometimes ads are really useful)


Unfortunately after a little Googling, the closest I got to the 2010 Finweek Bank Charges Report was on this page. Seems it's available to Finweek subscribers only.

 :Sorry:

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## BusFact

Both my Standard bank accounts have received refunds.

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Dave A (03-Mar-11)

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## Blurock

> Both my Standard bank accounts have received refunds.


Yaai!! The power of the people!

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## Troll

I am happy to report I got my refund from Standard Bank. But it gets better.

I am thrilled to report that I've nearly halved the bank fees on the business account by moving to FNB.  :Big Grin:

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## IanF

Now for the good news FNB have charged me a cheque deposit fee. Next thing there will be a fee querying something at the bank.
The real question is do we start charging for every thing we do for a customer, like a file submission fee I am sure I could get the convoluted reasoning for this. 
Anyway will query with them and see!

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## Dave A

Raise hell about it, Ian. Standard Bank haven't tried to re-introduce the fee (yet), but if FNB gets away with it I'm sure Standard will have another shot too.

Out of interest:
Did FNB give you a proper notice?
What are they charging?

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## IanF

Dave
I am having hassles getting hold of my relationship manager. But I will keep on trying.

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## IanF

OK got feedback from another FNB representative as the relationship manager is on leave. There is no negotiation on the cheque deposit fee as they had this service cross subsidised before. Also I was told that other fees didn't go up as much because of this. Then was also told it is a board decision so they can't change it. 
But on the plus side we can avoid the fee if we use the ADT, so I will try that next time. I am also told that these take cash. So this is good news, I wonder what is causing this shift rising staff costs or rising rental costs or is it just the directors want bigger bonuses.

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## Dave A

Ok - so they're "just" charging for over-counter deposits, just like ABSA. I wonder if it's per cheque or per deposit.

Don't lose heart on the "done deal" attitude - my Standard Bank manager had just the same posture, and in the end Standard did an about turn anyway. Did take a bit of a din to do it though  :Frown: 

And if they all do it, the threat of moving doesn't count for much anymore...
But the prospect of the competition tribunal looking at banking collusion once again would improve  :Confused: 

Maybe Capitec will break into business banking some time soon  :Beta1:

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## IanF

Its a charge per deposit, but I will try the ADT next time they tell me it is easy to use.

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## Dave A

I hate depositing cheques into auto-tellers. It then gets checked and cleared at a cash center and I've had cheques unpaid for being "irregularly drawn" for the most trivial things. Most classic example - a cheque that was returned as irregularly drawn because the *not transferable* was not between two lines.

And every now and then a perfectly good cheque returned because the operator hasn't read our extended "acceptable names" mandate - quite literally operator error  :Frown: 

And then there's when your client deposits a cheque into your account for you - no hole-in-the-wall deposit option there either  :Frown:   :Frown: 

No wonder Juju wants to nationalise the banks. He's probably sick of it too.

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## Blurock

> Dave
> I am having hassles getting hold of my relationship manager. But I will keep on trying.


Banks have become very unfriendly places due to them imposing their internal systems onto their clients. Whereas in the good old days the banks still had "customer service" training, they now have a take-it or leave it attitude. 
 :Mad: 
From being client centric banks have become systems centric. They are driven by "shareholder value" and short term profits. Salaries and bonuses to executives are going through the roof. This will only continue if the paying public allows it to continue. Let your voice be heard! 
 :Boxing: 
Due to bad service from Govt. departments, every service provided by Govt. has been duplicated and improved on by the private sector. Private security has replaced policing, couriers and e-mail have replaced the post office, schools have been replaced by home schooling and private schools etc etc.  :Whistling: 

The same is starting to happen in the banking sector. More people are realising that they can get financing and services traditionally provided by banks, from other sources.
 :Batman:

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Newretailer (20-Sep-11)

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## Pap_sak

> OK got feedback from another FNB representative as the relationship manager is on leave. There is no negotiation on the cheque deposit fee as they had this service cross subsidised before. Also I was told that other fees didn't go up as much because of this. Then was also told it is a board decision so they can't change it. 
> But on the plus side we can avoid the fee if we use the ADT, so I will try that next time. I am also told that these take cash. So this is good news, I wonder what is causing this shift rising staff costs or rising rental costs or is it just the directors want bigger bonuses.


Went onto my FNB account ASAP to see if I was being charged for cheque deposits! Seems not, so far - but do all my deposits by ATM....R166.50 for depositing R13K cash (as said before, that used to be free!)

The free deposits where the only thing keeping me at FNB (Capitec charges 1%), i am thinking (as a sole prop) it might be time I move that over as well.

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## Pap_sak

Hmmm, Will be looking at the Capitec option tomorrow. Their fees for debit orders and EFT's are way lower than other banks +they give you decent interest on positive balances. Now, the only reason i was with FNB was because I could put money in my savings account for free then transfer it over for about R13 a pop - this is now gone. I also needed a "business cheque account" when I started, now i am pretty sure my suppliers don't give a hoot is the money is coming from a savings or a check account. 

so we go Capitec for the business...but I still do not like being charged 1% for cash deposits. Well it looks like there is a credit card that is charging a flat fee of R19,50 per cash deposit at an ATM...then transfer it over.

It might not be an elegant solution ( I know these transfers take a couple of days)...but hell, skewing a bank for fees, priceless!!

I rekon i will save around R700 - R900 p/m if this works (std bank fees less, plus getting intrest + paying way less for cash deposits) lets call it R8.5k per year, thats around R25k less sales I need to do to "break even", with no real down side...

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## IanF

Don't we love the banks  :Slap: 
@papsak I have used the ADT twice for cheques so far so good, no fees and no bouncing. My next problem is on the online store someone just deposited a cheque. Now they will have to wait until the funds clear before we get the order ready. We have never   had this before.

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## Pap_sak

Just posted this on hellopeter:

Wanted to get a linked PayPal account according to FNB's website:

Qualifying FNB accounts include most *FNB savings, cheque and transmission accounts*. When completing a FNB Top Up or Withdraw with PayPal transaction, a list of all your qualifying FNB accounts that can be used for this service will be displayed. Remember that they will have to be linked to your FNB Online Banking profile in order for them to be displayed. A credit card account is not a qualifying account for this service.

Note: FNB Top Up and Withdraw with PayPal is only available to personal and business users with qualifying FNB accounts and access to FNB Online Banking. The service is not available to Online Banking Enterprise™ users. All FNB Top Up and Withdraw with PayPal transactions are subject to Terms and Conditions.

I have a business cheque account - you would think i would qualify from your website. But, after being kept on the phone for 15 minutes I was eventually told this account does not qualify. i pay around R800 - R1300 p/m month on service fees, and now have had enough....you are a USELESS bank you've already lost out on commissions on three Merchant terminals will now move the rest.

Finally this has pushed me over the edge (this plus I had an FNB guy promise to phone me back on monday....yeah right). Have asked capitec to start paying all merchant terminal sales into my account there, so the big switch has begun.

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## IanF

Papsak,
With FNB I don't get the personal service either. And to get an answer is hard. What are you paying capitec for card commission as the 5% I pay, sometimes gets quite high. But I will take it anyday over running accounts.

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## Pap_sak

> Papsak,
> With FNB I don't get the personal service either. And to get an answer is hard. What are you paying capitec for card commission as the 5% I pay, sometimes gets quite high. But I will take it anyday over running accounts.


Much cheaper at Capitec - I was also at FNB.

VISA - 3.25%
Debt cards - 1.75%
Machine rental - R195 p/m

I use GPRS which is quicker plus no call charges - extra R175 p/m.

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## Pap_sak

Now, I've just come back from my local Capitec (moving over debt orders, yup i am serious about ditching FNB!) and found something quite interesting:

I thought you could only have one "main" account in your name, linked to your card and another 4 subaccounts just used for storing cash.

I WAS WRONG

These other accounts are proper accounts with there own account numbers - you can have debit orders from them, have people pay in cash ect ect. Your card though is still only liked to your MAIN account. YOU GET TO NAME THOSE OTHER 4 ACCOUNTS - so you can now have 4 "business" accounts!

Will try pay a check into one of the accounts and pay in some cash and see how it all works!

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## Dave A

Pap_sak, I took the liberty of copying your Paypal/FNB post onto this Paypal thread. Thought it was relevant to that particular discussion too.

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## Pap_sak

> Pap_sak, I took the liberty of copying your Paypal/FNB post onto this Paypal thread. Thought it was relevant to that particular discussion too.


No probs.

Went to capitec to make some payments. Unfortunately even though you can have an Account with your business name on it and you can have debit orders/people can transfer to it...you CANNOT pay checks into it, you can only take checks in your personal name (Capitec uses ABSA to clear their checks) ....so will probably be running a dual bank system for a while.

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## Dave A

Well, here we go. I wasn't sure whether Standard Bank was really having another crack at this this year - but the first cheque deposit fee just landed.

Customer deposited a cheque into my account for R114.00 - branch cheque deposit fee is R15.00  :Frown: 

At least this time it's going to be per deposit rather than per cheque - but if my clients are going to deposit the cheque themselves, practically there isn't much of a difference.  :Stick Out Tongue:

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## IanF

> Well, here we go. I wasn't sure whether Standard Bank was really having another crack at this this year - but the first cheque deposit fee just landed.
> 
> Customer deposited a cheque into my account for R114.00 - branch cheque deposit fee is R15.00 
> 
> At least this time it's going to be per deposit rather than per cheque - but if my clients are going to deposit the cheque themselves, practically there isn't much of a difference.


Then when the cheque is rubber the fun starts. You get the honour of paying for this plus they charge the drawer as well.
Sometimes a cheque is the most practical way to pay, I had a plumber come out in December and you could pay by credit card which was done by filling out your credit card details on there invoice together with your cvv code. This would then be used to do a manual "swipe" I balked as I don't want those details in an invoice book who knows when someone will harvest that database, so an expensive cheque it was. I should of just done an EFT but wasn't thinking at the time.

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## Blurock

> Well, here we go. I wasn't sure whether Standard Bank was really having another crack at this this year - but the first cheque deposit fee just landed.
> Customer deposited a cheque into my account for R114.00 - branch cheque deposit fee is R15.00


This just goes to show how stupid banks have become. The charge would have been the same for a R50 deposit! This is a total rip off and consumers should all stand up to these money grabbers. I see this as a form of extortion as you are given no alternative. You have to accept legal tender from your customer, but now you end up feeding the greedy bank.  :Mad: 

The banks should rather concentrate on funding and growing businesses which will automatically increase their income. Allow me to quote some real examples:

Business A with T/o of R2.5 million lands a big tender because of their technical expertise in IT. With the right finance (after approaching 3 banks, other institutions and loan sharks) they increased T/o to R40 million  in the first year. They buy their own building, employ more staff and sub contracts some of their work. 

Business B is refused by the banks, but obtain private bridging finance and T/o increases from R2mil to R22mil in one year. Now all the banks are falling over each other to offer facilities!

The increase in transaction volumes in both these cases will generate additional fee income so the bank can actually afford to lower their banking fees. More income is generated by payroll and staff accounts. These businesses require more equipment and vehicles which needs to be financed and insured. They also need to consider staff medical aid and pension schemes which will generate further annuity income for the bank. 

But for the sake of R15, the bank are p!$$ng people off! They will now lose out on the bond finance, insurance, pension scheme and most of the other business that will be placed with alternate service providers. :Whistling:

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## Justloadit

Well got informed to day that ABSA will now charge R11 for a cheque deposit. If all the banks do this, we have no choice any more.

Personally I prefer an EFT, however in certain circumstances, such as a Trust that I administer, using a cheque to make a payment is just easier, especially when you have more than one signature.
Yes it can be done via EFT, but what if the co-signer is not PC illiterate or IT illiterate?, and if you look at the Stranded Bank business banking, you have to have a dedicated PC for internet banking with codes that change every month, etc a huge overhead to allow two people to authorise a payment.

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## Blurock

> Well got informed to day that ABSA will now charge R11 for a cheque deposit. If all the banks do this, we have no choice any more.


They are like sheep. If the one does it they will all follow without considering an alternative to differentiate their service to attract new customers or to keep existing ones.

The banking industry in South Africa is considered to be world class - not because they are so good, but because they do not take risks and rip off their customers to maximise shareholder value. :Gun Bandana:

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## Miro Bagrov

Sorry everyone, I only found the topic now.

I worked at this bank last year... I am aware of their style.

Anyway, that's not helpful.
What might help:

1. Discourage Check deposits from clients.

2. Set up a special account where check deposits are still free. (a non-business deposit)

3. Cash Cheques pass fees onto the drawer.. Cash all uncrossed cheques.. (banks only call the drawer for over R10 000 encasement - or suspicious ones.)

I want to tell you, from an insider's perspective... They are very secretive about the fees. For example, I was the only one who took interest in fee structures. I caught them adding a monthly fee to Mzansi accounts. When I said this is ridiculous the team leader told me to keep my mouth shut and that the bank needs to do anything to get more money, in his view..
No one is informed about fee changes at Branch level - the whole thing is hush hush. A sales consultant can tell you the benefits of any account as in, "better service", "specially for young people", etc. Asking specific questions on the price will show you they don't know. This goes for all banks.

For example most of you don't know your bank has made contractual provisions to close your account if you do not use it for 6 months. Some people like to leave their money for years in accounts and think it' safe - it's not. Banks leave contractual provisions to change fees without notice (although this is illegal according to the acts), to market products to you (also illegal), to automatically "upgrade" your account (illegal), to withhold interest unless an average balance is maintained, etc. Read Terms / Cond. section to understand.

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BusFact (13-Jan-12), Dave A (13-Jan-12)

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## Newretailer

I opened my Capitec account a couple of months ago but kept my STD bank one just in case. Yesterday I went to close it. They didn't even ask for a reason. It feels good to finally be rid of that rip-off.

I agree with you Blurock. Banks should increase business to increase profit. This is where I think capitalism has gone crazy. The shareholders must be satisfied at all costs. Seeing that many businesses do not seem to be able to increase profits by truly increasing their business, they simply load on more charges to create illusions of increased business. Or in the case of manufacturers, they just make the sizes of everything smaller for the same price.

I don't know where this bank nonsense is going to stop. Every year they add charges on previously free transactions. Surely a point will be reached where it will not be possible anymore?

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Miro Bagrov (13-Jan-12)

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## Miro Bagrov

It's like I said in this other article... Bank is YOUR SERVANT not YOUR MASTER. Wouldn't you fire a wage-worker if he caused you that much problems? Then go fire your bank!
http://www.theforumsa.co.za/forums/s...all-businesses
1.Don't use a bank unless you have to.
2.Don't use the account they want you to.
3.Use accounts without deposit fees to receive money then transfer them to accounts that don't pay withdrawal fees to take the money out. Again... Don't deposit unless you have to.
Like everyone is saying. We must consider that banks are adding costs which destroy our profits. This means our prices have to increase.. When that happens fewer people buy from us. Then we have to close our shop because some guy next door who runs a cash & carry shop will dig us under with his discounts...

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## IanF

I see Bidvest have opened a bank, Website this is great for the competition it provides. It looks worthwhile to look at. Has anyone used them for banking?

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## Blurock

> I don't know where this bank nonsense is going to stop. Every year they add charges on previously free transactions. Surely a point will be reached where it will not be possible anymore?


It will only stop when we as consumers stop being gullible and ans stand up for our rights. :Boxing:

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Miro Bagrov (16-Jan-12)

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## Dave A

I see Standard Bank likes this new cheque deposit fee so much, on Friday it charged me twice for the same cheque deposit  :Frown:

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## Blurock

> I see Standard Bank likes this new cheque deposit fee so much, on Friday it charged me twice for the same cheque deposit


Time for us consumers to start making a noise again. I do not mind paying a justifiable fee e.g. cash deposit fee because of required security, transport of cash etc. 

The cheque deposit fee is however unjustifiable and a total rip off. Another excuse for the banks to charge an additional fee to feed shareholders and exco members. Refuse to pay it!! :Rant1:  :Mad:  :Censored:  :Rant1:

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## Dave A

> Refuse to pay it!!


They just suck it off your bank account - it added 20.94% to my banking costs last month  :Frown: 
The only option to "refuse" the fee is to move my banking elsewhere.

Which banks aren't charging a cheque deposit fee on business accounts nowadays?

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## Blurock

I think all banks will eventually charge once it becomes the acceptable norm.

They have a way of putting a toe in the water, the rest of the body follows very quickly unless consumers start writing to the press and make a general fuss about it.

I urge everyone to query the validity of this charge. Make a noise! :Gunsmilie:

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## Justloadit

The banks know that as business owners, we do not have the time to fight.

When you wish to change a service or product in your business, the easiest way to get customers to change with you, is by the price you charge. The banks want to eliminate cheques all together, and this is their way of implementing it. 

I have a problem with the Trusts I administer, cheques are the easiest way to make the relative payments. Going on line creates it challenges as the number of authorized users must register for the online banking process, a pain in the but, but maybe the way to go forward.

The way the world is going, I think that cheques are a pain in the but. Electronic banking is so much faster and easier.

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## Dave A

It didn't take me long to find the branch cheque deposit fee had increased from R15 to R20 this year. Is a 33% increase after 4 years reasonable? 
Perhaps...

Far more irritating though - I have just discovered that this fee has now been extended to include *ATM* cheque deposits. Up until now cheque deposits via ATMs were free.

 :Mad:

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## Justloadit

What hurts more is when there is a fraudulent cheque deposited, FNB charged me R30 for deposit fee, and R105 for the rejected fee.

When I complained, the bank did refund me though.

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