# Interest group forums > Electrical Contracting Industry Forum >  220v Downlight DIY Installation

## daveob

OK all you bright sparks.

I have browsed the thread here :
http://www.theforumsa.co.za/forums/s...20V-downlights

and very informative, but also total information overload ( pun intended )  !!

I have had to replace a bedroom wall spotlight and opted for the LED version. Very impressed with the 3W output, so am thinking it is time to do the rest of the house.

Here's my plan :

Install 3 or 4 x 220V 3W LED downlights in all rooms. This will suffice for 95% of the time lighting is required in each room, and the central ceiling fan light can be used for the other 5% of the time when more lighting is actually required.

To have 1 downlight in each room connected in line to my backup UPS ( so 8 lights in total on 1 line ), so in the event of a power failure, I have 1 LED workable in each room.

I am about to re-roof the entire house ( incl. battons and sisalation insulation ) so it is probably an ideal time to do this project.

My thinking is to get it all installed and wired up, then get a qualified competent and experienced electrician to check it all, connect to the main board, and issue a COC.

So here's my questions :  ( ps ... I want to do this the right and safest way - cheap and nasty to save is not for me - my kids and wife are worth so much more, and I don't want my house burning down ).

1. is there a specific rating that I need for the fittings ?  Bearing in mind that I plan to use LEDs but there would be a possibility that someone in the future could use 50W bulbs.

2. what type of wiring to use ?  heat resistant / thickness / etc.

3. connection boxes ?  Do I run all fittings for 1 room to a common junction box, and then from there a main line to the lights breaker at the DB ?  Which wires need to be in pvc conduit ?  Better to mount the junction box on the side of a wooden truss, or loose on the ceiling board ?

4. Anything else I should know before I start this ?   ( yes, i know I should know what I am doing, and that's why I ain't connecting this lot to power until it has been checked over.  My belief is that with the advice and knowledge learned here, I can do just as good a job as the ( also unqualified ) electricians helper, and save a chunk on labour charges for the bits that expertise really aren't needed ).

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## ians

> OK all you bright sparks.
> 
> I have browsed the thread here :
> http://www.theforumsa.co.za/forums/s...20V-downlights
> 
> and very informative, but also total information overload ( pun intended )  !!
> 
> I have had to replace a bedroom wall spotlight and opted for the LED version. Very impressed with the 3W output, so am thinking it is time to do the rest of the house.
> 
> ...


i hope this helps and answers some of your questions

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daveob (28-Oct-12)

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## ians

Dave something not too many people are aware of, cool white, daylight, warm white etc lamps. Make sure you select the correct lamp, most shops only carry cool white lamps because they are the most popular. LEd lamps can be dimmed, but there are special requirements, the dimmer has to be a specific dimmer for the led lamps and the lamps must be dimmable.

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## Leecatt

I give up??

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## Dave A

If people are going to do it themselves (and they are), I suggest it helps if they've been given the right information as to how to go about it.

Besides which - where does one draw the line in these conversations:
Available to electricians only?
Available to wireman who have proven their credentials to the site admin?

Maybe SANS codes on electrical installations should be sold to wireman only?

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## Leecatt

> If people are going to do it themselves (and they are), I suggest it helps if they've been given the right information as to how to go about it.
> 
> Besides which - where does one draw the line in these conversations:
> Available to electricians only?
> Available to wireman who have proven their credentials to the site admin?
> 
> Maybe SANS codes on electrical installations should be sold to wireman only?


Dave, Written advice can be used in a court to sue someone. Should you give advice directly to someone on this forum and something happens because of it then you may be held criminally responsible for that action, indirectly albeit but responsible nonetheless. Something as serious as telling someone it ok to wire your own house just do it this or that way can have devastating consequences for the contributor. 
Discussing a subject openly on a public forum and then someone uses that information to their own detriment is different.
If someone has to come and ask questions on an open forum then it is plainly obvious that they do not have the skills to proceed successfully.
My advice to those who are cash strapped, instead of purchasing that new 50 inch flat screen for Christmas rather spend the money onmore important issues, like your safety.

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## daveob

I have to agree, partly, with both Dave AND Leecatt.

DaveA : If people are going to do it themselves (and they are), I suggest it helps if they've been given the right information as to how to go about it.

Leecatt : If someone has to come and ask questions on an open forum then it is plainly obvious that they do not have the skills to proceed successfully.

Well, DUH !!  Of course I don't have the skills for this - that's why I ask the questions. To be better informed about the correct way to do something would be better than just trying to do what one thinks is the right thing to do.  I don't tell my 7 year old that "if you have to ask how to do something, you're obviously not skilled to do it, so just don't bother trying" ( within reason ). I also did a trade and when I started as an appy, I also didn't know a damn thing. So how did I learn ?  Watch, ask questions, research.  The questions on the forum is part of the research.

So what skills do I need for this ?
Find a spot that is the correct distance away from trusses, etc.
Drill / cut a correct size hole in the ceiling board for the light fitting.
Pull a (correctly sized) cable from the fitting location to the junction box for that room.
Pull a cable from the light switch to the junction box.

Up to this point, I don't see any special skills required for the above, providing I know the specs for the project : hole size, safety distances, cable sizes, etc.

In fact, I would be reasonably certain that the majority of electricians' assistants that do this part of the work are far from skilled, with absolutely no qualifications at all.

The final wiring, connections, and going 'live' are a different matter and should at least be checked by an experienced, qualified and competent (yes, all 3 requirements to be met) electrician, with the live connection being made by him thereafter.

To satisfy Leecatts concerns ( about being sued ) lets add this to the start of the conversation :

Hypothetically speaking, although I would never actually try this myself, but I am curious to learn what regulations and best practices would be for the following, and weather multiple qualified persons would all agree, what would your advise be for the following :

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## Dave A

> I give up??


Never, ever give up!

What we need is a common, viable understanding of how to proceed in these things. And we do it by presenting our points of view and discussing the issues.

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## daveob

@ Leecatt

Having just re-read your (and other's ) posts on this subject, I have to say that I felt the tone of your reply offensive, degrading and presumptive.

_"If someone has to come and ask questions on an open forum then it is plainly obvious that they do not have the skills to proceed successfully.
"_

I am not an idiot. Please don't think I am.  I may not be experienced in this / your field, but that does not define me as dense.

Personally, I am a programmer ( by profession and as a hobby ), business owner (15 years) , can program PLCs, micro-controller devices in various languages, I am (reasonably) successful, work around 4 hours a day, from home, overlooking the sea, and earn an annual income with 6 zeros at the end ( before the decimal place ).

The fact that you may, or may not, have any of the same skills that I possess does not affect how I view your capabilities and is not relevant to me, nor should my skills be relevant to you.

I asked what I thought to be an intelligent set of questions, and expected to receive positive feedback and information.

To assume that I am cash strapped and to assume that I don't already have (more than one and larger than 50cm ) flat screens is presumptive. 

In short, perhaps in future you should limit replies to positive, relevant to the facts available, and accurate.

Your response could have been something along the lines of :

_Dave, Written advice can be used in a court to sue someone. Should you give advice directly to someone on this forum and something happens because of it then you may be held criminally responsible for that action, indirectly albeit but responsible nonetheless. Something as serious as telling someone it ok to wire your own house just do it this or that way can have devastating consequences for the contributor.

I would suggest that all posts of advice of this nature should be made with a disclaimer, along the lines of "this is my personal opinion and should not be taken as professional advise, recommendation or guidance in any manner or form whatsoever"

I have noting else of relevance to say ... end of post.
_


If you didn't intend the offense that I took in your reply, then either the Ritalin I just started taking has some bad side effects, or your forum etiquette could use a little polishing.

I trust that if / when we again cross paths on the forum, gentlemanly behaviour and etiquette will be used.

Regards
Dave

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Martinco (29-Oct-12)

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## Dave A

> I would suggest that all posts of advice of this nature should be made with a disclaimer, along the lines of "this is my personal opinion and should not be taken as professional advise, recommendation or guidance in any manner or form whatsoever"


To some extent this is covered under the TFSA general disclaimer, and perhaps even internet forum culture. But I think Leecatt's point when it comes to person-to-person advice is worth bearing in mind.

My general feeling is that when there may be fault in the advice, most often this is picked up and pointed out in a later post - the nature of forum discussions becomes auto-correcting. And essentially that is what is happening here, (whether we're talking about ians' or Leecatt's posts) although practically we're still in the process  :Smile: 

What I think we need to avoid is developing a culture where people are overly fearful to speak out. Let's please accept that what is said by all is done with the best of intentions as a contributor.

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## bergie

getting the popcorn out. i dont see how we can deny information. we cant check everyones credentials before posting. the forum is here to help.

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## Leecatt

> @ Leecatt
> 
> Having just re-read your (and other's ) posts on this subject, I have to say that I felt the tone of your reply offensive, degrading and presumptive.
> 
> _"If someone has to come and ask questions on an open forum then it is plainly obvious that they do not have the skills to proceed successfully.
> "_
> 
> I am not an idiot. Please don't think I am.  I may not be experienced in this / your field, but that does not define me as dense.
> 
> ...


Dear Dave
Glad to hear your doing well.
You are right, the Ritalin is most definitely having some side effects
Respectfully yours
KMA
Lee

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## Leecatt

Mo original intention for joining this forum was to be able to discuss the regulations with like minded individuals in an effort to brining some understanding of the regs into the industry as we all battle.
I believe in the regs as much as I believe that there are electricians out there who are contributing positively to this industry.
Now I find I am offering advice so that unqualified people can take the law into their own hands and I find my self encouraging DIY electrical installations, which it is exactly the opposite of my original intent.
For the record I make my bucks out of folk who DIY because I do not do any installation work, only repair work.
Somebody tell me where the eject button is please

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## Dave A

:Banghead:  This is why it's so important to play *the ball* and not the man, folks. Could we please stop taking insult where (at least originally) I doubt any such insult was intended.




> Mo original intention for joining this forum was to be able to discuss the regulations with like minded individuals in an effort to brining some understanding of the regs into the industry as we all battle.


Terrific! It's the primary purpose for having the forum in the first place and I'm stoked to have you here (along with all the other folk who contribute to the success of this forum).  :Smile: 




> Now I find I am offering advice so that unqualified people can take the law into their own hands and I find my self encouraging DIY electrical installations, which it is exactly the opposite of my original intent.


Then don't do it.

Technically it's Ian that has offered the advice. You're "merely" pointing to the risks in that - and it's fair comment worthy of exploration. And that's all I'm trying to do here.




> Somebody tell me where the eject button is please


With all due respect, that doesn't help explore or resolve the issue. I took your point on board and I'm testing my own preconceived ideas on the subject. And now you want to bail? 

C'mon, let's lay out the issues and thrash this thing out. And perhaps this is the first question that really needs a definitive answer -

Given the nature of the regulation in the industry, is there no "right way" for a homeowner to DIY additions or changes to their home's electrical installation?

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## daveob

> : Could we please stop taking insult where (at least originally) I doubt any such insult was intended.


Sorry DaveA. I didn't see it that way. And I also got a PM from another member about it as well, so was reasonably convinced that I was not dreaming it.




> :Terrific! It's the primary purpose for having the forum in the first place and I'm stoked to have you here (along with all the other folk who contribute to the success of this forum).


Yes, Leecatt really does seem to know it all, so I agree a valuable contributor to the forum and it would be a sad day if she decided to 'eject'.




> :Technically it's Ian that has offered the advice.


and to Ian, my sincere thanks for the positive and constructive reply, to the question I asked. From you, I have learnt a great deal, and I am grateful for that learning.


As Dave A's signature says : They'll tell you "Quit now, you'll never make it." If you disregard that advice you'll be halfway there.

Unfortunately, I think this thread has strayed too far from the intended purpose and there must be easier ways to get the information and advice that I seek without having to fight for it.  As in life, I manage my time and energy extremely well and, as in the physical world, with wasting both like in this case, I simply choose to leave the room.

To Dave A, apart from this, I must say Thank You for the Forum and the learning that I have received from it over the years. The impact that you and this forum has had on so many over the years is certainly far greater than you could imagine.

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## ians

How to install and connect a 15 amp socket outlet, technically not allowed to be done by a DIY fella, however try google it and see how much info there  avaialble for "all" to see.

If you want to do something, just google it, the internet is full of information, so should i keep quiet and not reply, i dont think so.

What i should do however is maybe get a signature which will have terms and conditions of the info i post on this forum, NOT, Dave will nuke the kak off his website  faster than i type, if he feels i am out of line, as he has done in the past   :Nono:   :Wink: 

You could always report me to the DOL, what a waste of time that would be, i havent killed anyone , yet  :Stick Out Tongue: .

The sad thing is that unfortunately there are still people who are proud to be electricians, like i was once apon a time, who take the time to read the regs etc,i take my hat off to all of you guys and thank you for your positive feedback. Unfortunately i just dont give a damn anymore. 30 years in this industry and all i see is it falling apart by the day. The days when i was still wiring houses with galvernised threaded conduit, i was proud to tell people i was an electrician, nowadays when people ask what i do, i tell them i am a carpenter and build stuff out of wood.

When you climb in the roof of peoples houses and you cant see the difference between the alarm wires and the electrical installation you know soemething has gone terribly wrong with this industry. When people want to do a diy electrical installation i can understand why, chances are they are likely to do a better installation than some of the so called "electricians" out there.

By the way an NTC3 certifcate, doesnt mean you are a qualified electrician, seems everyone who has N3 thinks they are qualified electrician, or should i say according to the people i have interviewed for electrical jobs.

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## Dave A

> How to install and connect a 15 amp socket outlet, technically not allowed to be done by a DIY fella, however try google it and see how much info there  avaialble for "all" to see.
> 
> If you want to do something, just google it, the internet is full of information, so should i keep quiet and not reply, i dont think so.


I don't think so either, and not just because the "information is already out there."

The issue of industry regulation to achieve standards is one of my favorite chewing points, primarily because it is nowhere near as simple a subject as most people think.

Over the years I've developed a personal belief that much like "the pen is mightier than the sword", education is mightier than regulation when it comes to raising standards. This theory is based on two foundations:
Most people "do the wrong thing" out of ignoranceInformed people makes better choices
I happily concede that some people *wilfully* "do a bad job" when they should know better. That's why education isn't a total solution - industry regulation does have a role to play in achieving standards. However I really believe regulation cannot succeed in achieving quality without first making sure the information on how to achieve those standards is out there and easily accessible.

But perhaps there's a solid reason why this doesn't apply to information about domestic electrical installations?

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## wynn

> education is mightier than regulation when it comes to raising standards


Unless the monkeys running the zoo revert to the lowest common denominator being the standard of the education ???

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## ians

It is quite simple, if you drop off an qualified, unskilled person on a site to perform a task which requires higher qualifications, then yes i agree, education is the key, but you first need to enforce the law, ie...nail the contractor who is leaving unqualified staff on site, which will prevent them from doing it and force them to send the staff for the correct training, then look at improving standards.

All staff on site should be required to wear a card type identification, with relavant qualifications cleary displayed. This will prevent people like myself, who work in factory enviroments having to work amongst labourers, who are left on site to connect DBs and machines. It is not my responsibilty to report these contractors, there should be a safety inspector on site at all times, checking that people are wearing safety belts, checking people are doing work according to their qualifications indicated on their ID card. We are all issued with these cards in the elctricial industry, so no, there is not an addtional cost to the customer to provide us with these ID cards.

There are way tooo many people with  eleconop 1 grading, because no further training is required to become an eleconop 1, to go any higher requires training in a training centre and then testing. This is just not happening for what ever reason, too busy to send staff, too expensive, or just because you have to pay the people more for the higher grade. It could be that contractors are get away with leaving the lower grade staff on site and can charge higher rates.

I believe that if the DOL and factories engineers where doing their job correctly and clamping down on this type of behavior, we could start seeing more realistic rates being charged by electical contractors. It wil force contractors to use the correctly skilled staff as and where required, and in turn improve the ridiculous rates which elctrical contractor charge per hour. We must be the lowest paid contractors in any industry. Motor vehicle companies charge, R500 + per hour, you can get an electrical company to do work for as little as R 250 per hour.

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## Sparks

I support educating the public at large however, to each his own trade. A quick rundown of regs applicable to one section of an installation is one thing but there are other factors to consider. Having joints in an enclosure with glands at all the entry points does not mean everything is hunky dory. There are other factors to consider too. Load, circuit length, voltage drop, earthing, protection.... There is a lot of sound advice offered on this site, which I am glad to see, but it needs to be stressed that the regulations being enquired about also stipulate that only suitably qualified people work on installations. This is to protect lives. With my experience I am not surprised that some people do not trust "contractors" to adhere to the regs. "You get what you pay for" has two sides to it. You could be paying, as in most cases, for the company "name" which was inherited years ago and no longer delivers the standard of work which "earned" the name in the first place. At least some people make an effort to ensure the safety of their families. Having the DIY certified after doing it is one thing, finding a "credible" certifier is another. I take my hat off to people prepared to stand up for their families and wish them luck finding credible "certifiers". If it costs a bottle of whisky for the COC, you can just as well take it with when your stomach wants to go. This is the New SA we have to get used to it.

An after thought: There used to be an advert on TV for carpets. The company founder stated that there are two types. The one type has his name on it. My work also has my name on it. My COC is for free, it is to certify that my work is as it should be. My time gets paid for. It irritates me when people ask how much I charge for a COC.

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## Dave A

I've been putting a bit of thought into what might work as a DIY solution. The best answer I can think of is that the homeowner should involve the wireman right from the beginning. The home owner should run through what he or she plans to do and the wireman is involved in the planning, monitoring and the making off of the final connections.

I'm sure not too many people will be thrilled at the idea, but it's a heck of a lot better than what's happening at the moment where homeowners go doing their own thing without any guidance or control whatsoever.

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## Leecatt

> I've been putting a bit of thought into what might work as a DIY solution. The best answer I can think of is that the homeowner should involve the wireman right from the beginning. The home owner should run through what he or she plans to do and the wireman is involved in the planning, monitoring and the making off of the final connections.
> 
> I'm sure not too many people will be thrilled at the idea, but it's a heck of a lot better than what's happening at the moment where homeowners go doing their own thing without any guidance or control whatsoever.


Dave that sound a little bit like "we all get a chance to land the plane under the pilots indirect guidance". Doesn't work for me. 
It's about time that Joe Public learned that The Law is there to be respected and not and not interpreted to suit "his" requirements. 
I would like to place a piece here from a friend of mine in Cape Town, which deals with a slighter broader version of what we are discussing here. 
He compiled this article which is presently being published in a Cape Town Paper, I received it this morning.

It is entitled your geyser is leaking so you call a plumber
_
Your geyser is leaking so you call a plumber.  The contractor arrives and, using his step-ladder, he climbs into the ceiling of your house to look for a fault.  While he is standing on the ladder he touches your geyser and gets a shock.  His ladder slips and he falls and is seriously injured, or even dies.  Now you have a problem.  What is your responsibility and where does it start?

The incident must be reported to the Chief Inspector of the Department of Manpower and, in the event of a death, to the Police.  The Chief Inspector will investigate the incident and, depending on his conclusion, you may find yourself in Court facing a prison sentence or fine of R100 000.  With South African law you are responsible the moment you called the contractor.  According to the Occupational Health and Safety Act No 85 of 1993 (the OSH Act), every employer shall provide and maintain, as far as is reasonably practical, a working environment that is safe and without risk to the health of his employees.  

You may argue that:
1.	your home is not a working environment;
2.	the contractor does not work for you but a plumbing company;
3.	his step-ladder was unsafe to use and that he did not use it correctly; and
4.	Your geyser had an electrical fault that you were unaware of.

You are unfortunately guilty of all of the above.
The moment that any work is performed on your premises it has become a work environment.  It does not matter what work is performed  domestic, gardening, even changing the oil of your car.  The  OSH Act defines work as an employee or as a self-employed person and, for such purpose, an employee is defined to be at work during the time that he is in the course of his employment, and a self-employed person is deemed to be at work during such time as he devotes to work as a self-employed person.  In simple terms, it means anybody who performs work.

The OSH Act defines a workplace as any premises or place where a person performs work in the course of his employment.  The contractor may be employed by a plumbing company but he will be performing work for you therefore, indirectly, he is your employee.  His direct employer has duties to see that he is competent, trained and able to perform his duties in a safe manner and to ensure that he has the correct personal protective equipment and that his tools are in a good, safe working condition.  You still have the responsibility to ensure that he has received all of that from his employer.  You have the right to inspect all his tools and protective equipment before he starts working and you have the responsibility to make sure he uses his equipment correctly and in a safe manner.  He should be able to provide you with a step-ladder safety check or prove to you that it is in a good, safe working condition.  

Lastly, you, as the user, are responsible for the electrical installation defined in the OSH Act as any machinery, in or on any premises used for the transmission of electricity from point of contact to a point of consumption anywhere on the premises, including any article forming part of such an electrical installation, irrespective of whether or not it is part of the electrical circuit.  Unfortunately, the majority of South African homeowners or Lessors are under the impression that they need an electrical Certificate of Compliance only when they sell their property.  This is true, but all users or Lessors must have a valid Certificate of Compliance for that installation and it must be accompanied by a Test Report in the format approved by the Chief Inspector.  The Chief Inspector may, at any time, ask you to provide a valid Certificate of Compliance and not just at the time of an incident.  The Certificate of Compliance must be obtained from an accredited person who has been registered by the Chief Inspector of the Department of Manpower in terms of the Regulations.

The law requires that a visual inspection covering no less than 12 Aspects of the installation must be carried out as well as a series of 14 electrical tests.  Not only does the Certificate of Compliance cover you in the event of an incident, your insurance company may ask you to produce one if your property suffers damage due to an electrical fault, or if you face a public liability law suit which, by the way, the plumber may bring against you.

In South Africa we do not have a culture of suing each other for everything, but as the law gets stricter, we may soon see an increase in the number of law suits.  Do not become one of the first to be sued.   Make sure your premises are in a good, safe condition and that you have all the necessary Certificates. 

_

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## Justloadit

So when has a home owner become proficient in inspecting and insuring that the equipment a contractor is going to use is safe and in working order. 
Does this not bring to question then that the home owner therefor is not qualified, and therefor can not call a contractor to fix a problem in the home.
So who is qualified to do this?

An example, I am away over seas, and my 16 year old daughter calls the plumber to fix the leak, a situation as in the previous post occurs. 
She is then guilty of having called the plumber to correct the problem - 

mmmmmmm - Sounds like a catch 22 situation to me.

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## Yuri

> So when has a home owner become proficient in inspecting and insuring that the equipment a contractor is going to use is safe and in working order. 
> Does this not bring to question then that the home owner therefor is not qualified, and therefor can not call a contractor to fix a problem in the home.
> So who is qualified to do this?
> 
> An example, I am away over seas, and my 16 year old daughter calls the plumber to fix the leak, a situation as in the previous post occurs. 
> She is then guilty of having called the plumber to correct the problem - 
> 
> mmmmmmm - Sounds like a catch 22 situation to me.


The person renting the place or the owner staying in the house is responsible for the installation

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## ians

I look forward to that day, i wonder if it will happen in my life time?

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## Dave A

> The OSH Act defines a “workplace” as any premises or place where a person performs work in the course of his employment.  The contractor may be employed by a plumbing company but he will be performing work for you therefore, indirectly, he is your employee.


Oh dear - do- it-yourself lawyering seems to present much the same dangers as DIY electricianing and probably shouldn't be done without some level of oversight by professionals.

Lee, it would seem your friend has stretched the employer/employee relationship beyond the breaking point of even the OSH Act (which requires supervision and control to deem an employer as an "employer" - see S2). No, in your quoted scenario, I humbly suggest the private homeowner has employed the services of a *contractor*, and it's the contractor that is the employer that has to pay attention to OSH Act related worker safety. The worst thing the homeowner could do is start supervising the contractor's employees  :EEK!: 

Even if we look at COIDA, S89 mandator responsibility only starts kicking in when the contractor's client acts "in the course of or for the purposes of his business" - the private homeowner/occupier is off the hook.

The issue of user/lessor responsibility for the electrical COC is fair comment, though.

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## Leecatt

> Oh dear - do- it-yourself lawyering seems to present much the same dangers as DIY electricianing and probably shouldn't be done without some level of oversight by professionals.
> 
> Lee, it would seem your friend has stretched the employer/employee relationship beyond the breaking point of even the OSH Act (which requires supervision and control to deem an employer as an "employer" - see S2). No, in your quoted scenario, I humbly suggest the private homeowner has employed the services of a *contractor*, and it's the contractor that is the employer that has to pay attention to OSH Act related worker safety. The worst thing the homeowner could do is start supervising the contractor's employees 
> 
> Even if we look at COIDA, S89 mandator responsibility only starts kicking in when the contractor's client acts "in the course of or for the purposes of his business" - the private homeowner/occupier is off the hook.
> 
> The issue of user/lessor responsibility for the electrical COC is fair comment, though.


Thank you Dave. Actually I was re reading the transcript last night again and there are a few other issues that I have a problem with as well.
I may have been a tad hasty in posting it but on the other hand it may make for an interesting discussion further down the line.
Would it make a difference if there were only the plumber, or electrician, working alone as I think that is what he is referring to?

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## Dave A

> Would it make a difference if there were only the plumber, or electrician, working alone as I think that is what he is referring to?


The position of the sole proprietor contractor working on his/her own is an interesting one. I don't see it making a difference when it comes to OSH Act issues (i.r.o. private homeowner liability), but the fact that this particular individual doesn't have access to COIDA cover for him/herself does create an unfortunate hole in having a third party liable for paying the medical bills etc.

I've always understood that this person is pretty much on their own, have to look after themselves and should probably look for insurance cover...
But there's a few threads on TFSA already that seem to indicate that when it comes to insurance, claim time doesn't always work out as expected.

Maybe a good argument against contractors trading as a sole proprietor...?




> I may have been a tad hasty in posting it but on the other hand it may make for an interesting discussion further down the line.


Probably as well you *did* post it. Sometimes it's the best way to clear up issues and improve everyone's understanding.
With any luck the excercise might save your friend from future blushes too.

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## Sparks

I guess it all boils down to point of view & who has the highest paid lawyer :Wink: 
I just did some work at a large cable manufacturing plant. I had to submit all the required safety reports of my equipment(to relieve them of liabillity should the above scenario have taken place?). The same happened at a large motor dealership. I am about to do the same at another branch of the same dealership. Before I may commence work I must submit inspection reports for all tools which could cause injury. I was even asked about first aid qualification. During the induction I was told to submit all these documents for inspection prior to entering the work area.
I wonder now homeowners paint their wooden ladders for protection against bettles & the weather. If a painted ladder were to break, would the insurance claim "no liabillity" because the wood should have been varnished in order to see any defects that may have developed over time?

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## ians

If you really want to get into it, you need to start taking about things like, KBC Health and safety training for each staff member, medical clearance , induction, hot permits, machine training, etc, etc, it just goes on and on. So were do we draw the line with the one man operation, how far does he actually have to go to be cleared to work on any property. Stuff like putting up barriers when an electrician is working on an installation or carrying out tests on a domestic installation should all be taken into consideration, so how far do you want to go, thats the big question, you might know the electrical standards off the top of your head, but how many people take other things like barriers into consideration, how many electricians even own a lock out device, never mind a barrier to keep people out of the work or test zone? Simple things like putting putting a protective barrier between your equipment and the customers antique table, honestly how many of you take these precautions? I just laugh when i read these threads and shake my head, the reality is i work hands on on a daily basis, i dont sit in an office and send staff out to work, so i know what is going on out there and the type of workmanship i see on a daily basis, it scary.

It only makes sense doing all this stuff if "everyone" is forced to do it, and there are people going around enforcing the law, ie some form of prosecution for offenders, otherwise it is just another waste of tax payers money creating all the rules and regulations, i suppose it does create employment. Ever now and again, like maybe every 5 - 10 years there are people who arrive on site with clipboards, looking all smart, tick off a few things,make a noise and off they go into the sunset.

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## msmoorad

looking at the tone of the conversation here, this might not be the best place for me to ask this question but it seems that most of those who are best qualified to answer my questions are in/on this thread

damned if you, damned if you dont

anyways, let me go ahead....

im a trade tested plumber(for what thats worth)
ive recently been offered a chance to do maintenance/repairs/new installations for a large property management group

i was also told to include any other service that i would be able to offer the company in my company profile

i have a friend who is working now for over 4 years for an electrical contractor
ive seen him at work-he seems very competent to me
he says the boss lets him work on 3 phase & DB's etc 

he has now also been selected by Ethekwini Municipality for their trainee electrician prog
this friend says i should also say i can provide electrical services as he will come with to do the work & then i can pay him later

what i want to know is

*how much do electricians charge?
do they charge by the hour or by the job?
*
im going to get feedback from my friend but maybe you guys will advise me
please bear in mind that the electrical work that would be required would be nothing serious/heavy duty.

and, maybe i should not say this but again, let me go ahead...

aside from your concerns about unqualified/inexperienced people doing dangerous & shoddy work, it seems to me like many electricians here are just being protective of their trade secrets(if thats what it can be called)
its all motivated by greed $$$

you dont want too much competition-less competition= more work and allows you to charge what you really want
otherwise you would have to be "competitive"
i dont think you could care less if anyone got electrocuted and died
-hell, as long as you or your company is not going to be blamed-why worry?

im not saying everyone is like this but...

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## AndyD

> i have a friend who is working now for over 4 years for an electrical contractor
> ive seen him at work-he seems very competent to me
> he says the boss lets him work on 3 phase & DB's etc 
> 
> he has now also been selected by Ethekwini Municipality for their trainee electrician prog
> this friend says i should also say i can provide electrical services as he will come with to do the work & then i can pay him later


I'm assuming your friend isn't a qualified electrician so he's working under supervision at present. If he freelances then who is going to supervise him? Who will sign his work off? Who will issue the compliance certificates?

This is a dangerous game. If he's injured whist working on your contract or under the umbrella of your company or somebody is injured by an electrical installation he's worked on then these are the questions that will be asked...and depending on the severity of the incident quite possibly in court of law. 




> what i want to know is
> 
> *how much do electricians charge?
> do they charge by the hour or by the job?
> *
> im going to get feedback from my friend but maybe you guys will advise me
> please bear in mind that the electrical work that would be required would be nothing serious/heavy duty.


I don't know what domestic electricians charge to be honest. I'm sure it would depend on the type of work and their location.




> and, maybe i should not say this but again, let me go ahead...
> 
> aside from your concerns about unqualified/inexperienced people doing dangerous & shoddy work, it seems to me like many electricians here are just being protective of their trade secrets(if thats what it can be called)
> its all motivated by greed $$$
> 
> you dont want too much competition-less competition= more work and allows you to charge what you really want
> otherwise you would have to be "competitive"
> i dont think you could care less if anyone got electrocuted and died
> -hell, as long as you or your company is not going to be blamed-why worry?
> ...


I take exception to that last part. I suggest you look inward rather than outward before making accusations of protectionism and greed. If you knowingly take on an electrician who's not qualified in order to reduce overheads or increase your business then that would reek of reckless greed. It would also be you that '*could care less if anyone got electrocuted and died
-hell, as long as you or your company is not going to be blamed-why worry?*' to use your own wording.

When I read you post I wasn't sure if you were either deliberately trolling for an argument or whether you just knew damn well that what you're thinking about is taking a chance and you wondered how well or otherwise it would sit with others and whether it could be justified by your smoke and mirrors protectionism theory.

*I can only strongly suggest you very carefully reconsider what you're suggesting and consider the possible outcomes and consequences.
*
The problem with apprentices and electricians mates is they're often exploited and used to perform the bulk of installation work. Yes they can install conduits and cables and sockets but more often than not they're not responsible for the testing and certifying. They're also not responsible for the original installation design and all these aspects of a job are equally, if not more important than the actuall installing.

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Leecatt (21-Jan-13)

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## Leecatt

> i have a friend who is working now for over 4 years for an electrical contractor
> ive seen him at work-he seems very competent to me
> he says the boss lets him work on 3 phase & DB's etc


Your friend is not working as an electrical contractor unless he is registered with The Chief inspector as such. He is simply doing electrical work, hopefully under the supervision of another person who IS registered with the Chief Inspector as an electrical contractor, otherwise he is breaking the law.




> aside from your concerns about unqualified/inexperienced people doing dangerous & shoddy work, it seems to me like many electricians here are just being protective of their trade secrets(if thats what it can be called)
> its all motivated by greed $$$
> 
> you dont want too much competition-less competition= more work and allows you to charge what you really want
> otherwise you would have to be "competitive"
> i dont think you could care less if anyone got electrocuted and died
> -hell, as long as you or your company is not going to be blamed-why worry?
> 
> im not saying everyone is like this but...




We are not protecting our "trade secrets", the Law of South Africa is. We are highly qualified people who have undergone years of training in various field and have progressed beyond the qualifications of a normal electrician in order that our customers can sleep safely at night in the knowledge that they are not going to die because of any dangerous installations. And yes we make money from it, in much the same way as a doctor, an architect, a lawyer or any other professional person does, we have a skill and we sell it, not rocket science. I am in business to make money, not make friends or have a nice day simply to make money and offer a safe in exchange, reliable service, otherwise I would be employed by someone else and let them have all the headaches. If you see that as greed then so be it.

Electrical work is extremely dangerous at any level and will pose a threat to life if not done correctly, it is not a tap that simply leaks if neglected.

Should your friend become a qualified electrician and then comply with all the legislation required to do electrical work correctly, and legally, then he would be entitled to participate in this industry. 

The Law of South Africa is very specific and I quote:

_OCCUPATIONAL HEALTH AND SAFETY ACT, 1993 ELECTRICAL INSTALLATION REGULATIONS
Electrical contractor
6. (1) No person may do electrical installation work as an electrical contractor unless that person has been registered as an electrical contractor in terms of these Regulations._

Let me ask you a question, how would you feel if you were flying on a plane to Cape Town only to find your "electrical" friend posing as the pilot? 
That's the situation many people find themselves in when hiring non electrically-qualified handymen. 
I have seen houses burn to the ground because some non qualified person who "knew what he was doing" did not know the rules and therefore never followed them. 
Electricity kills my friend and there are no second chances.

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## Dave A

> and, maybe i should not say this but again, let me go ahead...


Actually, I'm pleased you did. Rather it's discussed openly and put to bed if possible than skulk in the shadows.




> aside from your concerns about unqualified/inexperienced people doing dangerous & shoddy work, it seems to me like many electricians here are just being protective of their trade secrets(if thats what it can be called)
> its all motivated by greed $$$
> 
> you dont want too much competition-less competition= more work and allows you to charge what you really want
> otherwise you would have to be "competitive"
> i dont think you could care less if anyone got electrocuted and died
> -hell, as long as you or your company is not going to be blamed-why worry?
> 
> im not saying everyone is like this but...


I've found this line of thinking pretty common among unqualified folk in other trades as well - perhaps you find it in the plumbing business too?

Any of these sound familiar?
The job is a lot easier than the experts make it out to be.The dangers of doing it wrong are exaggerated.I don't need to be qualified to do this job - I know enough already (even when they've failed the exam!  :EEK!:  Surely that's a clue.)The people who are qualified make it more difficult to get qualified than the job actually requires.Their motive is to keep competition low and their prices high.
Let me share two thoughts in addition to what has already been said above by Andy and Lee:

I've lost count of the number of times in industry meetings that the fiercest supporters of people having to be properly qualified to do the job were previously just as vigourously saying just these sorts of things before they got qualified themselves.There is only one thing scarier than a person who doesn't know what they're doing - it's *when they don't know* that they don't know what they're doing.

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Leecatt (21-Jan-13), msmoorad (20-Jan-13)

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## msmoorad

Dave

i accept & understand what u & others have said
but human nature being what it is....

its only obvious that once someone is qualified then they see things from the other side of the fence

with regard to my friend & who is going to check his work
as i said- its going to be light stuff- that i could also most probably do
like removing old light fitting & installing new ones
removing old plug points & installing new ones

but if its complex stuff like rewiring an entire DB
then we have another qualified electrician with whom my friend has worked before to come in 
to ensure everythings OK

or if its something he is not sure about
we just wont do it- ill tell the company thats hiring me to please call someone else

it has happened before
we were called to see an electric gate motor
my friend told me he has no experience with this & is not familiar with the way its laid out/arranged
so we told the guy to call someone else

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## Leecatt

> Dave
> 
> i accept & understand what u & others have said
> but human nature being what it is....
> 
> its only obvious that once someone is qualified then they see things from the other side of the fence
> 
> with regard to my friend & who is going to check his work
> as i said- its going to be light stuff- that i could also most probably do
> ...


Anyone reading this should realise that this person is for real. 
These are the people who sometimes arrive at your door after you have taken the cheapest quote you could find.
A non qualified person installing dangerous electrical equipment into your precious home and supervised by a plumber.
Sleep well tonight.

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## msmoorad

> Anyone reading this should realise that this person is for real. 
> These are the people who sometimes arrive at your door after you have taken the cheapest quote you could find.
> A non qualified person installing dangerous electrical equipment into your precious home and supervised by a plumber.
> Sleep well tonight.


correction:
not supervised by a plumber- i know nothing about electrical work(except basics)

and hes not qualified but hes experienced
so, does that not count for anything?

see, its due to people like you that i say that youre just being protective n greedy
you know well that many aspects of the work you do can be done by many other "electricians" you pick off the street

yes, there are lots of things where you would def need a qualified & experienced person doing the job

let me ask you all this:
if im interested in working for this company long term
would i do anything reckless & dangerous which could cause damage to property & loss of life?

you make it seem as if its all going to be hit n run
that im going to disappear after doing the job

you think im just going to take a chance with anyone who knows nothing about electrical work?
and did i not say that we have a qualified electrician to come in and check up after were done ?

i know plumbing is not the same as electrical
but in my field as well, i know theres many things that anyone can do  but i still charge more to do the same thing cos
im a "qualified plumber"

and its irritating when you give a quote only to learn the customer gave the job to the neighbours son cos he was prepared to do it much cheaper.

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## Leecatt

> correction:
> not supervised by a plumber- i know nothing about electrical work(except basics)
> 
> and hes not qualified but hes experienced
> so, does that not count for anything?
> 
> see, its due to people like you that i say that youre just being protective n greedy
> you know well that many aspects of the work you do can be done by many other "electricians" you pick off the street
> 
> ...


I rest my case, this guy is his own worst enemy. :Stupid:

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## Dave A

I had originally had this one in my list of things you hear often, but I decided not to include it at the time as it's actually a slightly different issue:




> but in my field as well, i know theres many things that anyone can do  but i still charge more to do the same thing cos
> im a "qualified plumber"


Just because you're qualified? Or is it because when it comes to doing a job properly in a proper business where this is how you earn your keep and you can't fool yourself on the actual expenses, you know what the job really needs to be charged out at to cover everything?

Insurance, vehicle purchases, maintenance and replacement, payroll costs (in the case of the electrical contracting industry add the payroll costs to the bargaining council too), accounting costs, downtime costs, collection costs, bad debt, taxes....

All these indirect costs add up, and are often not factored in by the person doing the job "on the side." Frankly, indirect costs are often not factored in properly by many a start-up either, but they can't fool themselves for very long because they don't have another income stream to subsidise their bad costing and budgeting. 

Here's another thought I think you should also consider - 

Having a foot in multiple industries sounds great in theory, but it does come with its own special challenges. In my case if I'm providing electrical and pest control services to a client and the electricians mess up, I might end up losing my pest control contract where the guys have done nothing wrong.

You've got a perfectly legitimate plumbing business, and a solid client lined up for it. When they ask you for qualifications or if the client has a regulatory compliance audit (which I see is becoming increasingly popular nowadays), you're not going to have any problems producing all the required paperwork. All good so far.

Now you're talking about adding an electrical service to this same client. Would you be able to pass a regulatory compliance audit?

And critically - are you prepared to lose the plumbing business on offer if the client discovers there's a problem with the electrical side of things?

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msmoorad (21-Jan-13)

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## msmoorad

> I had originally had this one in my list of things you hear often, but I decided not to include it at the time as it's actually a slightly different issue:
> 
> 
> Just because you're qualified? Or is it because when it comes to doing a job properly in a proper business where this is how you earn your keep and you can't fool yourself on the actual expenses, you know what the job really needs to be charged out at to cover everything?
> 
> Insurance, vehicle purchases and maintenance, payroll costs (in the case of the electrical contracting industry add the payroll costs to the bargaining council too), accounting costs, downtime costs, taxes....
> 
> All these indirect costs add up, and are often not factored in by the person doing the job "on the side."
> 
> ...


now, thats some intelligent questons
ive been going over that myself

i can show plumbing qualification but nothing for elctrical

what if
what if....

yes, maybe i'll tell them to just give me the plumbing side of it

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## Dave A

> yes, maybe i'll tell them to just give me the plumbing side of it


At least secure it first and get a good track record down with the client. That way if you add anything to your business, you've already got a lot of credibility to help land the new business, or help some towards making sure a lapse in the one division isn't fatal to *all* the business. (In a nutshell, that's pretty much how I manage this particular risk).

My only other tip is if you *do* add another line one day, go all out to do it *properly*. Don't even try anything half-baked. Unfortunately the world tends to score more heavily on our weaknesses than our strengths, and a weak divsion can really drag down a strong one.

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msmoorad (21-Jan-13)

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## Sparks

> much the same way as a doctor, an architect, a lawyer or any other professional person does, we have a skill and we sell it, not rocket science. .


While agreeing to mostly all you said I take exception to this statement. I wrote off over R10 000 due to me by a lawyer since December 2011. His wife is an Estate Agent. They were supposedly "friends". The money was supposed to come from a deceased estate, not even their own pockets. I have given up sending accounts. Not worth the aggravation. I am also trying to get money back from a dentist who ripped a friend off by performing a procedure without authorisation. She went there for a quote and ended up having to pay nearly R4000.

As Andy stated, I too suspect ulterior motives for this posting which is why I never bothered to reply but, as I am commenting now I might as well add that I have a list of clients as long as my arm who only pay for my materials and of course a few cups of coffee. The only people I overcharge are the ones who I know have done it to someone I know. At least my clients know that the work is done correctly.

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## Leecatt

> While agreeing to mostly all you said I take exception to this statement. I wrote off over R10 000 due to me by a lawyer since December 2011. His wife is an Estate Agent. They were supposedly "friends". The money was supposed to come from a deceased estate, not even their own pockets. I have given up sending accounts. Not worth the aggravation. I am also trying to get money back from a dentist who ripped a friend off by performing a procedure without authorisation. She went there for a quote and ended up having to pay nearly R4000.


Hi Sparks, whilst acknowledging your bad luck I have to say that anyone who trusts a lawyer, or even worse an Estate agent, deserves all they get  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 
This reminds me of a mate who bought a house up on Primrose Hill with a view overlooking the Bedforview City and all the way to Pretoria, very nice. However one snag was that there were Eskom power lines almost above his house and the veld in front posed a security risk.
"No problem" said the Estate Agent, " the power lines are coming down and the cables are getting buried in the mountain top (solid quartz all over) and the veld is being re zoned for a game park and is getting stocked with all sorts of wild animals". Well 25 years on and guess what...? One very big washing line and plenty of midnight shoppers.
Have a great day guys. :Cool:

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