# Regulatory Compliance Category > BEE and Employment Equity Forum >  Foreigners occupying local jobs?

## JanChris

Hi Guys, want to throw a stone in the bush this morning.

I would like to see what comments come forward about "foreigners" occupying local positions and they sit mostly in senior positions.

Definition of a foreigner is, " A person who comes from a foreign country who *does not owe allegiance* to your country".
Cheers

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## adrianh

I have 3 Zimbabweans working for me and I won't change the for anybody else. The reality is that the government's BEE policy aims to replace WHITE SOUTH AFRICANS with other people. You must remember that the redress of inequality is a politically motivated undertaking and as such will do anything in its power to remove white South Africans from business even if it means to replace them with white foreigners.

The only way for a white South African to survive in this country is to start your own little business (The ideal is to do so with BEE partners) If you really want to get ahead then you should gear the business to provide something that the masses need (You could teach them how to run factories)

The bottom line is that we can either bitch and moan about how terrible the country is or we could figure out how to survive and profit from the situation.

I read an interesting quote from the second world war and it was this "When bombs start to fall buy property" - as odd as it might sound the war will end some day and you will own the land.

It all goes to being practical and making the best of any situation, as grim as it might seem.

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## JanChris

Hi Adrian,

I agree with you but as I have touched on this subject briefly before, it is *(BAD)*government practice to replace experienced people with those who are still learning to perform the tasks that is required to manage a successful country. Lets be honest, the rest of Africa is not really an example of how it should be done. The European countries assist with food and basics *ALL* the time while we (SA) would rather spend money on rubbish. Read an article by a black guy this morning where he says that the previous government (regime) everything was in working order. now everything seems to be falling apart while the current government is trying to figure out how all works. I saw last night a TV program where they discussed the road forward with Mugabe, needless to say, what he said in 1976 is nothing what is happening today in that country.
I will definitely make my own successful future and riches in this country. Even if I have to get support from abroad. I am sure that they will see the potential of a proven plan.

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## desA

Xenophobia is an amazingly simple excuse for extreme myopia. I find this whole thread quite disgusting.




> "When bombs start to fall buy property" - as odd as it might sound the war will end some day and you will own the land.


Not if recent tendencies to restrict foreign property ownership gain sway. Imagine if that was applied retrospectively - eg. 300 years back!

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## JanChris

This thread would be "disgusting" if you fear, part take or approve of it. The truth is, just look around you and see what I am talking about.

Makes you think, does'nt it.

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## desA

Xenophobia appears to be alive & well in SA. I do have to agree with you, on that score. It is very sad in a nation that once welcomed foreigners who made their home in SA. At that time, we were so appreciative of the new ideas others brought to SA's shores.

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## adrianh

> Hi Adrian,
> 
> I agree with you but as I have touched on this subject briefly before, it is *(BAD)*government practice to replace experienced people with those who are still learning to perform the tasks that is required to manage a successful country. Lets be honest, the rest of Africa is not really an example of how it should be done. The European countries assist with food and basics *ALL* the time while we (SA) would rather spend money on rubbish. Read an article by a black guy this morning where he says that the previous government (regime) everything was in working order. now everything seems to be falling apart while the current government is trying to figure out how all works. I saw last night a TV program where they discussed the road forward with Mugabe, needless to say, what he said in 1976 is nothing what is happening today in that country.
> I will definitely make my own successful future and riches in this country. Even if I have to get support from abroad. I am sure that they will see the potential of a proven plan.


The bottom line is that it is what it is and we have to make the best of it. No matter how much we complain it ain't going to change. I am a practical person, I prefer to make a go of it even if I don't like the situation. I had a choice during my 2 years of national service, sulk all day or accept it and find a way to deal with it and survive. It is the same for you, forget about fixing the country for the moment but rather concentrate on the things that you can fix, which of course is your own financial status. Once you've got your own thing going then worry about all the rest.

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## adrianh

> Xenophobia is an amazingly simple excuse for extreme myopia. I find this whole thread quite disgusting.
> 
> 
> 
> Not if recent tendencies to restrict foreign property ownership gain sway. Imagine if that was applied retrospectively - eg. 300 years back!





> "When bombs start to fall buy property" - as odd as it might sound the war will end some day and you will own the land.


Des, this statement is a metaphor. It means that although a situation is grim and that there seems to be no way out, if one were to play your cards right you may just come out on top when it is all over.


Why do you find the thread disgusting? It is merely a discussion tossing ideas around, I don't see any emotive content.

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## adrianh

> This thread would be "disgusting" if you fear, part take or approve of it. The truth is, just look around you and see what I am talking about.
> 
> Makes you think, does'nt it.


You know, us white South Africans can be likened to the Japanese in the second world war. Hear me out, again, this is an analogy so don't get fixated on the details. Anyhow, the Japanese military wanted to fight to the death, each and every man would have laid down his life for his country and of course many did, many even went as far as knowingly flying their aircraft into American warships in the pacific aka Kamikaze and many committed suicide rather than surrender. The one day president Truman had his bombers drop atom bombs on Hiroshima and Nagasaki. The Emperor decided that carrying on with the war was no longer viable and surrendered. Surrender went against everything that the Japanese stood for but he did it in order for the Japanese culture to survive. Yes it was tough and yes it was demoralizing but the Japanese were able to recover even though they had to do so under a new set of rules. The point that I am trying to make is that it is not always in your interest to fight head on, sometimes it is in your interest to take whatever $h1t is handed out and to build a life in spite of it. I bet the Japanese thought; "if the Emperor wants us to surrender and to quietly build ourselves up again then we will" You see, the Americans may have beat the Japanese militarily but they did not beat them psychologically. My view of the new regime is this "F*ck 'em, my family and I will survive in spite of them"

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desA (28-Jul-14), Newretailer (31-Jul-14), OdetteBK (01-Aug-14)

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## desA

I've been trying to research pale-skinned groups resident in Nigeria, Kenya, before they were granted independence. 

Did they go through similar things to what is presently happening in SA, or was it completely different for them? What were their world views? Were they nationalistic? What were the economies like? Where are they now?

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## adrianh

> I've been trying to research pale-skinned groups resident in Nigeria, Kenya, before they were granted independence. 
> 
> Did they go through similar things to what is presently happening in SA, or was it completely different for them? What were their world views? Were they nationalistic? What were the economies like? Where are they now?


You must remember that they see us as the foreigners.

I think that unless colonialists came in to power and stayed in power they didn't fare too well. I think that the thought process on the part of the locals and their offspring is "You've told us what to do for long enough. We don't care what you know or what you think we should do, you should just leave us alone to do things the way we see fit"

This is the way I think that they see their lives (metaphorically speaking as usual)
A person adopts a child from another nationality. The person then beats the child if the child does anything wrong. The child starts to rebel and then gets locked in the cupboard for long periods. The more the child rebels the harsher the parent becomes. At long last the child is 21 and is now free to choose his own path. The child tells the parent that he plans to take the house in which he suffered all his life, to burn it down and to rebuild it as he sees fit. The parent tells him that he can show him exactly how to build the new house just as long as he doesn't kick the parent out. The child says that he doesn't actually care what the parent does just as long as the parent stays out of his face. The child is now big and strong and has the power to wring the parents neck. 

The question is not... What does the child do? 

but rather...What does the parent do?

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desA (28-Jul-14), pmbguy (28-Jul-14)

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## desA

> ...What does the parent do?


Emigrate?

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## adrianh

> Emigrate?


There are various options:
1. Emigrate.
2. Rebel.
3. Sulk and die.
4. Put your pride in your pocket and work around the problem child. Not to work against him but rather to survive and succeed in spite of him.

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## pmbguy

> "You've told us what to do for long enough. We don't care what you know or what you think we should do, you should just leave us alone to do things the way we see fit"?


Well said - it’s a natural response even


I like to have long conversations with my black clients about family, SA, business, politics, etc. Most of them are sharp and they know more about what’s going on then we often give them credit for.  

I feel that once the model C generation “comes into power” SA will be pulling itself right… we just have to adapt and posture ourselves best to the current situation until then, whilst actively working to make things better, still making money.

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## Houses4Rent

I am a white foreigner on paper, but probably more South African than foregin by now. I do not think that there should be any discussion about being foreign or what race, but purely on merrit who gets what job. Period.

Just glad that I have my own business and a little legacy to leave//live off too by now. Busy growing it.

I pretty much all ignore all factors I cannot change to stay sane.

Another analogy to the bombs would be Warren Buffet. "Be greedy when others are fearful and be fearful when others are greedy." OR "Buy when there is blood on the streets." 
In more simple terms: "swim against the stream if you want to be successful"

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pmbguy (28-Jul-14)

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## adrianh

> Well said - it’s a natural response even
> 
> 
> I like to have long conversations with my black clients about family, SA, business, politics, etc. Most of them are sharp and they know more about what’s going on then we often give them credit for.  
> 
> I feel that once the model C generation “comes into power” SA will be pulling itself right… we just have to adapt and posture ourselves best to the current situation until then, whilst actively working to make things better, still making money.


Exactly.

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## pmbguy

> Warren Buffet. "Be greedy when others are fearful and be fearful when others are greedy." OR "Buy when there is blood on the streets."


Love it


Just some side trivia - Buffet's favorite book is "How to win friends and influence people" By Dale Carnegie 

A link to the book PDF
**_Sorry, link removed_**

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## JanChris

I notice that most of the "positive" comments come from people who are successful or own their own business. 
Think about the response you'll get when you try to explain western business or global business practices to a person who has no home or no food to feed his family. 

I say it again - Just look around you and see the state of our country. Everything functioned reasonably well before the current government.

We all say we must wait, things will get better. WHEN? Do we have to re-invent the wheel or would it not be progress if we can improve on it.

The only people benefiting today in SA is in government.

It is claimed that "ALL" are free now - are we really free??????? Are we not "ALL" worst off than before.

It is amazing how the conversation changes other than the issue at hand.

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## desA

> It is amazing how the conversation changes other than the issue at hand.


Various shades of denial & spades of positive thinking, I'd suspect. Would it ever be any other way in an ever-changing political landscape?

Mention of the phenomenal rise of the EFF Red Tide, may introduce another aspect for consideration?

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## adrianh

> I notice that most of the "positive" comments come from people who are successful or own their own business. 
> Think about the response you'll get when you try to explain western business or global business practices to a person who has no home or no food to feed his family.


The only reason we are slowly succeeding is because we work 18 hours a day to build up a little business. Don't kid yourself, we know perfectly well what its like not to have money. 




> I say it again - Just look around you and see the state of our country. Everything functioned reasonably well before the current government.


Maybe if you were white, if you were black you were totally f*cked. Our maid carried a passbook and and and....




> We all say we must wait, things will get better. WHEN? Do we have to re-invent the wheel or would it not be progress if we can improve on it.


Forget about the big picture, build your own life yourself.




> The only people benefiting today in SA is in government.


Rubbish, there are many people who run profitable businesses.




> It is claimed that "ALL" are free now - are we really free??????? Are we not "ALL" worst off than before.


There is no such thing as total freedom. We all have to abide by rules. I was speaking to a lady last night who grew up in Copenhagen, according to her she prefers to stay here because we are so free to do as we please. Everything is perfectly organized there, people are little robots going about their little regimented lives




> It is amazing how the conversation changes other than the issue at hand.


The issue at hand is that life is k@k and you can't change it. We al got dealt the same cards and we have to make the best of it. You can think laterally and come up with a plan...

I clearly remember PW Botha saying the following "Adapt or Die"  aye well, now we are at the receiving end of that statement!

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## pmbguy

We won’t be equal or free until the government removes its racist laws which are damaging to the country. White people are an asset to SA not the enemy. We should work together as equals. WE have the resources both in man and nature to compete internationally and kick ass. A stronger better run SA means we can feed the kids and teach them western business history  –  among many other subjects. 

Pessimism does not lead to success. I refuse to be curtailed by negativity and fear, I am not waiting for anything. I approach the world analytically and positively engage.

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## HR Solutions

Janchris - I was not going to comment, because of a previous thread you requested comments, but then blasted the comments out of the water, but nerveless ....... This is my opinion - some of it from a professional point of view and some not.  Give me a Zimbabwian or Malawian anyday to work in the garden and/or do maintenance around the house etc etc - They are far less full of shit and actually want to work.  As for other foreign people and qualified people - yes we should try to hire from within SA firstly and we as a company try and do this within our company, ...... BUT people in SA are full of shit - they have every excuse under the sun to either not want to work hard, or don't want to work long hours or want more money for less work or ................ the list goes on.  And I have said it before - the people who give the most shit are young white boys between the ages of 20-30 .......... they expect to walk into a job and get it all (I have a son that age as well but he knows better).  Therefore what happens out there is that companies start looking abroad because they can get better qualified people for less hassle and even less salary.  It is time for people in SA to start working - stark knuckling down and get on with the job.

PS .... Just another little point you are prob not going to like - Over the last 20 years black people have bettered themselves, studied and quietly got on with it - this we forget and only some of us are waking up to this realization.

PPS ...... And before tec or anyone jumps on me and says Im talking crap because they are not like this -this is a majority thing we have found - it is 8 out of 10 people - NOT everyone.

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## Greig Whitton

> We all say we must wait, things will get better. WHEN? Do we have to re-invent the wheel or would it not be progress if we can improve on it.


Nothing gets better on its own. Things get better when you make them better. Those who wait, complain. Those who take (the right) action, celebrate.




> The only people benefiting today in SA is in government.


You are entitled to your opinion and I am sure you are just venting here, but this is factually incorrect. I benefit from living and working in South Africa and I do not work for or in government.




> It is claimed that "ALL" are free now - are we really free??????? Are we not "ALL" worst off than before.


I obviously can't speak for everyone else here, but I am definitely better off in the "new South Africa" than the "old South Africa". Don't get me wrong, we face many obvious challenges. But my market (local small business owners) has grown tremendously, in part due to the emergence of numerous black entrepreneurs. The amazing opportunity that I have to help South African entrepreneurs from all walks of life build sustainable businesses that will support their families, create jobs, and contribute to national socio-economic growth would have been greatly stifled under the old political regime.

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Citizen X (21-Aug-14), HR Solutions (28-Jul-14)

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## desA

> WE have the resources both in man and nature to compete internationally and kick ass.


Well, many SAFers thought this towards the end of apartheid. Open the world, we'll show them.

Got clobbered into non-existence, didn't we? A rather rude awakening.

I assure you that, compared to SE Asia/Asia, SA is light-years behind in terms of many/most technologies. For instance, it is embarrassing to try & even compare China/Japan/Korea/Thailand with SA - embarrassing. SA now sits very low on the international competence scale.

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## pmbguy

I agree that SA's performance is embarrassing, But we could be much stronger - Clearly. SA has not crumbled into pieces the way I bet you said it would for the last 20years. Things go wrong, constantly complaining about it and poisoning the well is even more embarrassing. Des, you about to complete a masters degree on how not to get high-jacked/screwed. That's an expensive, but valuable degree. Why now spend all that knowledge fixating on your bad experiences?

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## Leonp

we employ a white foreigner (who married a local husband) who is willing to work much harder than anyone else we've tried. For as long as were running a for-profit business, ill employ the person who gets the job done best as it translates to money.

regarding the comments re south Africa being a success or a failure: The very small private sector has carried this country, both its economically-inactive as well as its suspect public sector for 2 decades now. But until we achieve >6% growth per annum as a whole, we are all on a very short leash.

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desA (28-Jul-14), pmbguy (28-Jul-14)

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## adrianh

> I assure you that, compared to SE Asia/Asia, SA is light-years behind in terms of many/most technologies. For instance, it is embarrassing to try & even compare China/Japan/Korea/Thailand with SA - embarrassing. SA now sits very low on the international competence scale.


That not only goes for South Africa but for most other countries too. Be that as it may, we have choices, we choose to send our daughters to a good (non-private) school, we choose to educate them and ourselves, we choose to build our own business against all odds. I will not let circumstance dictate who we are. South Africans need to stop talking about how terrible the big picture is and start to concentrate on their own sphere of influence. Yes, the government are a bunch of useless idiots, yes there is BEE, yes jobs are being lots and and... we can sit and whine about it or each of us can create our own piece of heaven. The world is a $h1t place and lots of terrible things happen but you know, at the end of each day I am quite satisfied with my own life because I know that I put in everything that I have to accomplish my goals...and that is as much as there is to life!

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Blurock (28-Jul-14), Dave A (02-Aug-14), desA (29-Jul-14), Greig Whitton (28-Jul-14), HR Solutions (28-Jul-14)

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## HR Solutions

Yes - it is really no use for anyone to bitch and complain about not finding a job in this country, because I have got news for them.  There are PLENTY of jobs in SA ........ for those that are prepared to work for their salary and not rip the arse out of their employees.  If you have the proper qualification that this country needs you will walk into a job.  But if you sit at home and say ........... eish there is no work out there - !! - you have to go out there and find it.

In our business the most difficult part of recruitment is finding the right people, NOT finding specs for people that want work.

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## Houses4Rent

If the grass is greener on the other side....water your own.

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## JanChris

HR Solutions, I do not deny that black South Africans have studied and bettered themselves, that's great and it can only be to the county's advantage.

But, do we not require more qualified level minded people in the government or are we waiting for the likes of the EFF to take over power. I am not just complaining but do yourself a favour and speak to ex Zimbabweans who admitted that they also stuck there head in a hole and "waited" for things to get better. SA is a great place, but there is just so much going on that makes it bad in the eyes of the rest of the world. Our world ranking has gone down, car manufactures are closing plants and moving to the other countries. Like I said before, just look around you.

I am not a prophet of doom but if something hits you on the forehead and you still don't know what's going on, you need to re-asses.

Leon, you are referring to foreigners that are gardeners and maids and they are hard workers. Those persons will do anything to have a job because in his/her own country they are starving.

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## Blurock

> That not only goes for South Africa but for most other countries too. Be that as it may, we have choices, we choose to send our daughters to a good (non-private) school, we choose to educate them and ourselves, we choose to build our own business against all odds. I will not let circumstance dictate who we are. South Africans need to stop talking about how terrible the big picture is and start to concentrate on their own sphere of influence. Yes, the government are a bunch of useless idiots, yes there is BEE, yes jobs are being lots and and... we can sit and whine about it or each of us can create our own piece of heaven. The world is a $h1t place and lots of terrible things happen but you know, at the end of each day I am quite satisfied with my own life because I know that I put in everything that I have to accomplish my goals...and that is as much as there is to life!


Well said! I agree, if you are not happy with your life, you must be making the wrong choices. If you want change, start with yourself.

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## JanChris

Is no one going to comment on the Zimbabwean remark that I made and that SA is going the same way. I get the feeling that the "positive" comments all come from those who have businesses, retired or employed. What about my comment regarding jobless people?

The stats about unemployment was in the news last night, any reaction regarding the figures?

I would like the forum to comment on the statements/comments that I made, the answers/responses are vague in my opinion. 

Unfortunately I speak straight and do not walk around an issue as I am not an politician.

On channel 190 on Dstv they air many true stories, take some time and have a look at what those people go/went through. 

Once again, are we (SA) going to stick our head in a hole, or are we (All of us) going to prevent deterioration? When it suits us (SA) we get programs from abroad, but when we make a hash of things and we ask questions, we are quickly reminded that this is Africa. Are we going forwards or are we losing the plot.

Enjoy your day.

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## HR Solutions

Fill us in - what comment did you make that we didn't reply to ...

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## Greig Whitton

> I say it again - Just look around you and see the state of our country. Everything functioned reasonably well before the current government.


Are you honestly saying that things were better under the previous (i.e. Apartheid) government?

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HR Solutions (30-Jul-14)

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## desA

^ Sadly, yes! 

Governance, manufacturing, employment... 

Sadly, because the previous lot were rabid racists who could not see further than taking most of SA's spoils for themselves (ethnic grouping). 

This has been supplanted with rabid racists who can not see further than taking most of SA's spoils for themselves (personally).

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## pmbguy

Jan, I sympathise with your situation and I agree that it’s desperate out there. 

How many recruitment agencies have your CV? How many businesses have you approached directly? How many hours a day do you spend on your job – looking for a job? 

What about the option of starting a business?

I am not optimistic because I have a business, I have a business because I am optimistic.

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## JanChris

> Jan, I sympathise with your situation and I agree that it’s desperate out there. 
> 
> How many recruitment agencies have your CV? How many businesses have you approached directly? How many hours a day do you spend on your job – looking for a job? 
> 
> What about the option of starting a business?
> 
> I am not optimistic because I have a business, I have a business because I am optimistic.


Hi, If I tell you that that I have applied and forwarded my CV to jobs and recruitment agencies more than 400 times.

I am not a youngster anymore but still have commitments.

I have tried and still busy trying to get investors to finance my design but not very successfully. A guy on the forum has responded (which I am grateful for) but nothing since. I know I have a winner. I appreciate all those who agree and disagree with my comments but it is a fact that whites are losing more jobs and are less successful when applying for new positions. I have mentioned before that my interviewer was less qualified than me and would not appoint me to the position, (I was interviewed on this occasion by a white person).

But I will always be positive and will always believe we live in the best country in the world but don't shoot me for discussing issues that are close to my heart and for those who cannot see it.

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## adrianh

> I am not optimistic because I have a business, I have a business because I am optimistic.


I declare this the quote of the month to date!

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wynn (04-Aug-14)

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## HR Solutions

I'm afraid Janchris - if you feel that things were better beforehand, then you are seriously looking at it the wrong way.  So what you are actually saying is - Jobs were easier to get for whites under the previous regime.  Yes of course its more difficult now.  You have to go out there and look for a job ....as pmb says above and as I said on a previous thread.  Have you sent your cv to our company ? Have you uploaded it on our data base ?  Because if you haven't done EVERYTHING to look then you really cant complain can you ?




> I say it again - Just look around you and see the state of our country. Everything functioned reasonably well before the current government.


Really ?? .... So the seventies was better for you ?  Have you been overseas at all ?  Some things work better over there and some don't and then you will actually realize that SA is NOT that far behind the world.

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## JanChris

> Fill us in - what comment did you make that we didn't reply to ...


Hi, the comment about SA becoming like Zim. 
Explaining new western business practices to an unemployed South African.

Some one has made a partial comment but I would like to get your view on the subject.

We must not choose to read what we perceive issues to be but to see the true/actual case at hand.

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## HR Solutions

> but it is a fact that whites are losing more jobs and are less successful when applying for new positions.


And there are many reasons for this ........ one being that whites (not all)are FULL OF SHIT when applying for a job.  I have said it before they want everything and are not prepared to work for it.

Yes I know there are more reasons ............ but we are in the minority.

Just another question .......... but if you cant get ANY interest in your product, then maybe just maybe its not such a good product after all ?

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## JanChris

I am also speaking for those who do not have the means to chat on the forum. We are privileged to do so.

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## HR Solutions

> I am also speaking for those who do not have the means to chat on the forum. We are privileged to do so.


OH ...... so you have the means to chat on a forum, but things are worse off than 25 years ago ???  Did you have this mode of technology then ?


No you are not privileged ....... Everyone has cell phones in SA - literally EVERYONE therefore anyone can chat on any forum.

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## JanChris

> I'm afraid Janchris - if you feel that things were better beforehand, then you are seriously looking at it the wrong way.  So what you are actually saying is - Jobs were easier to get for whites under the previous regime.  Yes of course its more difficult now.  You have to go out there and look for a job ....as pmb says above and as I said on a previous thread.  Have you sent your cv to our company ? Have you uploaded it on our data base ?  Because if you haven't done EVERYTHING to look then you really cant complain can you ?
> 
> 
> 
> Really ?? .... So the seventies was better for you ?  Have you been overseas at all ?  Some things work better over there and some don't and then you will actually realize that SA is NOT that far behind the world.


The seventies is a bit far back, I was only a child then. We cannot erase the past but only learn from it. What is happening now - black & white & others

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## IanF

I have mentioned Kickstarter before here is a South African project This is a random one which came up when you search South Africa on the website.

The only thing you have to lose is time on this.

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pmbguy (30-Jul-14)

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## pmbguy

Ian, I think Kickstarter deserves a thread of it's own.

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## adrianh

I have another employee starting on Monday. She is German and she is absolutely brilliant. She worked for me for a couple of years before going to Germany for a year. She is now back to carry on where she left off.

My Zimbabwean employees and my German lady rock!....the local boytjie is maar n disaster!

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## pmbguy

Is she hot?

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## JanChris

> And there are many reasons for this ........ one being that whites (not all)are FULL OF SHIT when applying for a job.  I have said it before they want everything and are not prepared to work for it.
> 
> Yes I know there are more reasons ............ but we are in the minority.
> 
> Just another question .......... but if you cant get ANY interest in your product, then maybe just maybe its not such a good product after all ?


I am sorry to say this but you clearly do not have a clue what you saying. And maybe the white applicants are just to over qualified or they are sick and tired of teaching "others" to do the job just to be fired anyway.
 In what way are the "whites" full of shit?

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## adrianh

She is a real German, very good looking, very bright, highly skilled  and doesn't take $h1t ( including from me :-) )

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## JanChris

> I have mentioned Kickstarter before here is a South African project This is a random one which came up when you search South Africa on the website.
> 
> The only thing you have to lose is time on this.


Thanx Ian, will have a look

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## HR Solutions

> I am sorry to say this but you clearly do not have a clue what you saying. And maybe the white applicants are just to over qualified or they are sick and tired of teaching "others" to do the job just to be fired anyway.
>  In what way are the "whites" full of shit?


Really ?  !! LOL Ok Janchris ....... this is what happened last time.  

In fact this comment of yours is SO off track and funny that it doesn't even deserve an answer. But the good news is, you probably will get one person on this site that will agree with you ...... He also battles to find work, battles to close a deal with "investors" and has certain problems with certain people etc etc etc.

PPS ..... Just to let you know as well the white applicants are no where near as qualified as "other"s in a general aspect (age 20 - 30).......... But whom I to say this ...

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## adrianh

> In fact this comment of yours is SO off track and funny that it doesn't even deserve an answer. But the good news is, you probably will get one person on this site that will agree with you ...... He also battles to find work, battles to close a deal with "investors" and has certain problems with certain people etc etc etc.


 :Cool:

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## pmbguy

> She is a real German, very good looking, very bright, highly skilled  and doesn't take $h1t ( including from me :-) )


I also want one

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## HR Solutions

> She is a real German, very good looking, very bright, highly skilled and doesn't take $h1t ( including from me :-) )



Good for you ........ if only we could find more people like that in SA ...

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## adrianh

She has a degree in Fine Arts and is well known in the model figurine world for her sculpting talents. Crafts(wo)men are so hard to come by, there are very people today who are able to turn ideas into reality using their own skills. She is one of those rare people who are able to. All she needs are a couple of tools and an environment where she is free to be alone in her own uninterrupted world. 

And for those who think she has it easy, degree and all, you are vastly mistaken. I've known her for about 5 years and I can assure you that there is zero work available for a professional sculptor, in South Africa or the rest of the world. She went for many interviews locally and abroad and every single company wanted her to work in CAD. Hand craft is simply no longer valued. But she never gave up on plying her skill or following her dreams.

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## desA

^ Sensor-enabled gloves - feeding into CAD interface -> CAD.

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## adrianh

> ^ Sensor-enabled gloves - feeding into CAD interface -> CAD.


Kinda difficult if you use scalpels, scrapers, bits of wire etc!

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## desA

^ Imagine how this could change the world.

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## JanChris

I have achieved the response that I predicted. Aren't we all so predictable defending our own little worlds revealing our personalities.

Good luck & Everything of the best to the guys who responded to my threads.

Enjoy your day.

HR, this is why I did not register with your company. I prefer to converse & work with grown ups and not some snot nose who still has so much to learn from life. Thinking that you know all is sometimes a window into one's personality.

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desA (31-Jul-14)

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## HR Solutions

Lol ... Funny thing jan Chris is I'm actually older than u  :Smile:  cheers good luck with finding a job.

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desA (31-Jul-14)

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## adrianh

> I prefer to converse & work with grown ups and not some snot nose who still has so much to learn from life. Thinking that you know all is sometimes a window into one's personality.


This is the funniest thing I've read in a long time, especially seeing that @HR runs recruitment agencies in Johannesburg & Cape Town and that he is older than you.

This comment " Thinking that you know all is sometimes a window into one's personality" is rather telling because I can honestly say from the 1,300 posts that HR has written on this site that he doesn't claim to know all.

Ok, so lets forget about all that nonsense and get on with the task at hand. The task at hand is not to whinge and whine about how bad the country is or what you think about HR personally but rather to find a sustainable income for yourself.

...or...maybe I'm being too practical again, maybe the aim of the thread is to do nothing other than whinge and whine about how terrible life is in South Africa.

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## adrianh

People don't seem to realize that they need to equip themselves for the marketplace. It is not up to the marketplace to hold positions open to suit their peculiarities.

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pmbguy (31-Jul-14)

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## JanChris

> This is the funniest thing I've read in a long time, especially seeing that @HR runs recruitment agencies in Johannesburg & Cape Town and that he is older than you.
> 
> This comment " Thinking that you know all is sometimes a window into one's personality" is rather telling because I can honestly say from the 1,300 posts that HR has written on this site that he doesn't claim to know all.
> 
> Ok, so lets forget about all that nonsense and get on with the task at hand. The task at hand is not to whinge and whine about how bad the country is or what you think about HR personally but rather to find a sustainable income for yourself.
> 
> ...or...maybe I'm being too practical again, maybe the aim of the thread is to do nothing other than whinge and whine about how terrible life is in South Africa.



Adrian, of all of the comments on the thread I valued your input the most. Not that I do not appreciate all the other comments. I agree with what you say but I get the impression that everyone making a comment feels that he is right. I am no different. I have some experience in the workplace (senior management positions for international companies for over 25 years) and one thing I have learn't is that have respect and value others opinion and (believe it or not) I learn from it but as everyone will react, I do not take kindly to personal attacks. 
It is interesting to hear what other views are (we are entitled to them) but let's do it in a manner where it is beneficial to all. It is fine to disagree with me or anyone else but there is a certain manner in which it is done or approached.

I am seeking both avenues in making a living, either to seek employment or to get financial investment to manufacture my idea. I think that we all started somewhere and we are not all blessed the same.

You have a great day

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## desA

^ Take heart, the average age of new business start-up entrepreneurs is 54.

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## JanChris

> ^ Take heart, the average age of new business start-up entrepreneurs is 54.


Thanx, fortunately I am healthy, think young & positive. This is the positive feedback that one seeks to find.

Have a great day.

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## adrianh

> Adrian, of all of the comments on the thread I valued your input the most. Not that I do not appreciate all the other comments. I agree with what you say but I get the impression that everyone making a comment feels that he is right. I am no different. I have some experience in the workplace (senior management positions for international companies for over 25 years) and one thing I have learn't is that have respect and value others opinion and (believe it or not) I learn from it but as everyone will react, I do not take kindly to personal attacks. 
> It is interesting to hear what other views are (we are entitled to them) but let's do it in a manner where it is beneficial to all. It is fine to disagree with me or anyone else but there is a certain manner in which it is done or approached.
> 
> I am seeking both avenues in making a living, either to seek employment or to get financial investment to manufacture my idea. I think that we all started somewhere and we are not all blessed the same.
> 
> You have a great day


I understand how you feel. I think that we all get wound up in the p1$$1ng contests rather than just deal with the issues at hand. Although you and HR got on each other's nerves I do think that you are both good people and that HR is willing and able to help you. 

Ok, so let's focus on getting your life on track. Get your CV to HR and lets talk about how one could go about getting your invention into production,.

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## pmbguy

> I get the impression that everyone making a comment feels that he is right.


You can safely turn your impression into catharsis. Imagine trying to communicate without a centre. Obviously people feel they are right. 

A high expectation of change in others is unrealistic and it undermines your ability to effect that change.

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## Greig Whitton

> ^ Take heart, the average age of new business start-up entrepreneurs is 54.


Is this an anecdotal estimate or an accurate statistic? If it is the latter and you have a reference for it, I would be most grateful!

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## desA

^ Greg, Linked in article. Forget the source offhand - thought it was interesting at the time. Honestly, who keeps track of everything you read?

Good enough for your pedantic nature?   :Zzzzz:

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## Greig Whitton

> ^ Greg, Linked in article.


Which link are you referring to? (I feel like I am missing something very obvious here ...)

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## Newretailer

I worked for Standard Bank as an IT contractor in a management position years ago. A memo was sent to tell managers that this is how they have to employ people:
- first try and find a black person
- then try and find an Indian, coloured or Chinese person
- next a contractor from India who comes to live in South Africa only for the duration of his/her contract
- then only a white person. 
I could understand the first 2, but to choose an person from India above a white person is insane. By far the majority of people in their IT department were Indian people straight from India. 
I worked with some and they were no better than South Africans, regardless of colour. South Africans can take a broad view, but these guys were incredibly narrow minded as far as work went. They also were NOT cheaper than South Africans. As a matter of fact, they were quite a bit more expensive.

Needless to say, that was one of the reasons I moved my banking from Standard Bank to Capitec. Things like that matters.

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## Newretailer

> PPS ..... Just to let you know as well the white applicants are no where near as qualified as "other"s in a general aspect (age 20 - 30).......... But whom I to say this ...


OK, I take strong exception to this. What do you think the reason for this is? Could it be that it is far more difficult for a white person to get into university perhaps? Your arrogance is not pretty.

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## HR Solutions

New retailer - I am specifically talking between the ages I mentioned based on the candidates applying for jobs in that age group. Why ? I have tried to answer that but it is clear that white ppl in that age group do not like that answer, but I can tell u this ....... If u look at our database of approx 20000 people the stats are clear showing qualifications etc.

Ps .. Not sure what you are taking exception to ?  The fact or what ?

Pps .... It sounds as tho u are qualified, and part of the minority in SA.  Just as a matter of interest I am also white and have 1 and a half kids qualified.

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## adrianh

I received lots of terrible CVs for the position that I recently advertised and then this morning I receive one that it simply outstanding. If I were a rich man I would set up a business that would employ talented young people to experiment and run with their ideas. I would put all of them in a group and have them do talks like TED talks about themselves, their skills and their passions so that each and every one can get to see what the others are capable of. The posers and fools will get kicked out. The rest will then be guided and assisted so as to develop whatever sensible projects they come up with.

The bottom line is that if I were to win R10million today I would use it to set up such an organization, imagine the possibilities, imagine what can be accomplished when creative people are able to develop their dreams rather than be stifled to death in a corner office working at a menial task just to make a living. (Maybe this is the way Google works)

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## Greig Whitton

> The bottom line is that if I were to win R10million today I would use it to set up such an organization, imagine the possibilities, imagine what can be accomplished when creative people are able to develop their dreams rather than be stifled to death in a corner office working at a menial task just to make a living. (Maybe this is the way Google works)


I think excellence lies somewhere between those two extremes. I have an incredibly talented friend who has all the freedom in the world to express his creativity. Unfortunately, he lacks the discipline to channel his potential productively (and profitably). Too much freedom can be just as stifling as too much structure.

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Newretailer (01-Aug-14)

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## adrianh

> I think excellence lies somewhere between those two extremes. I have an incredibly talented friend who has all the freedom in the world to express his creativity. Unfortunately, he lacks the discipline to channel his potential productively (and profitably). Too much freedom can be just as stifling as too much structure.


I agree with you 100%. The only way I am able to channel my creativity is with loads of support from appropriately skilled people (administrative, financial, technical etc to keep me in check and on track) and heavy doses of Concerta (Ritalin) to keep me focused.  :Cool:

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## adrianh

My "innovation hub" will feature an army of German ladies with a whips and a Ritalin bubblegum machine to keep all us crazies in line  :Crazy:

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## HR Solutions

Adrian and Greg - I agree with you 100%.  Young people (Y generation) are very innovative and out of the box thinking.  They are very refreshing to work with and keep a person young at the end of the day.  Google's way of operating is fantastic - we actually try to base our business model on that.

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## pmbguy

> My "innovation hub" will feature an army of German ladies with a whips and a Ritalin bubblegum machine to keep all us crazies in line


If things don't work out this side Im coming to work for you

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## pmbguy

I tell you what... I have yet to hear an employer say his Zim guys don’t work. They are educated (the one good thing Bob did) and have good work ethic. They not here to screw around, they have hungry mouths to feed back home. If by virtue of their talents and hard work they outperform some local labour its fair competition. 

Some may argue its bad for SA and some would argue its good. Yes they take jobs, but they infuse SA with good labour, this makes our own workers look over their shoulder knowing they must work harder having some competition around.

I do believe we should still have measures in place for exactly how many are legally allowed to work in SA, but the illegal ones will still come in no matter what, you would have to build a huge wall/fences for decades building it up... maintenance... security and then they just pop on tubes. Build the Navy up coastal guards etc etc, just look at the US so how would we fair. Keeping them out won’t work so looking at the advantages the situation has to offer is the next move. 

If he is legal and the best candidate I will hire him. No ifs or buts about it.

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## cyppokagain

Long term massive immigration is not sustainable. 
Also foreigners *cough* sometimes create those jobs by investing capital in said country.
But don't worry the "Bee" requirements help those out. Although there are exemptions if you have the SA gov't take a stake or something, it does happen.

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## JanChris

> Long term massive immigration is not sustainable. 
> Also foreigners *cough* sometimes create those jobs by investing capital in said country.
> But don't worry the "Bee" requirements help those out. Although there are exemptions if you have the SA gov't take a stake or something, it does happen.


Hi, There is a big difference between investing in a country, managing that investment in that country and someone who just accepts employment in that country.

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## HR Solutions

> I tell you what... I have yet to hear an employer say his Zim guys don’t work. They are educated (the one good thing Bob did) and have good work ethic. They not here to screw around, they have hungry mouths to feed back home. If by virtue of their talents and hard work they outperform some local labour its fair competition. 
> 
> Some may argue its bad for SA and some would argue its good. Yes they take jobs, but they infuse SA with good labour, this makes our own workers look over their shoulder knowing they must work harder having some competition around.
> 
> I do believe we should still have measures in place for exactly how many are legally allowed to work in SA, but the illegal ones will still come in no matter what, you would have to build a huge wall/fences for decades building it up... maintenance... security and then they just pop on tubes. Build the Navy up coastal guards etc etc, just look at the US so how would we fair. Keeping them out won’t work so looking at the advantages the situation has to offer is the next move. 
> 
> If he is legal and the best candidate I will hire him. No ifs or buts about it.


Totally agree - its actually quite funny that so many people feel this way.  One wonders the reason for this ?  Perhaps what I said in the beginning of this thread about the white guys (20-30) being so full of shit is right hey.

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## desA

> Which link are you referring to? (I feel like I am missing something very obvious here ...)


Indeed.

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## HR Solutions

This is an oldie, but just found it again and thought I would post it.  11 "rules" given to some school kids by Bill Gates.
It is so relevant in all aspects.


Rule 1:  Life is not fair - get used to it! 
Rule 2:  The world doesn't care about your self-esteem. 
The world will expect you to accomplish something BEFORE you feel good about yourself.
Rule 3:  You will NOT make $60,000 p.a. right out of high school. 
You won't be a vice-president with a car phone until you earn both.
Rule 4:  If you think your teacher is tough, wait till you get a boss. 
Rule 5:  Flipping burgers is not beneath your dignity. 
Your Grandparents had a different word for burger flipping: 
They called it opportunity.
Rule 6: If you mess up, it's not your parents' fault, so don't whine about your mistakes, learn from them.
Rule 7:  Before you were born, your parents weren't as boring as they are now.  They got that way from paying your bills, washing/ironing your clothes and listening to you talk about how cool you thought you were. 
So, before you save the rain forest from the parasites of your parent's generation, try delousing the closet in your own room.
Rule 8:  Your school may have done away with winners and losers but, life HAS NOT.  In some schools, they have *abolished failing grades and they'll give you as MANY TIMES as you want to get the right answer - BUT
*that doesn't bear the slightest resemblance to ANYTHING in real life.
Rule 9:  Life is not divided into semesters. 
You don't get summers off and very few employers are interested in helping you FIND YOURSELF. 
(Do that on your own time.)
Rule 10:  Television is NOT real life. 
In real life, people actually have to leave the coffee shop and go to work.
Rule 11:  Be nice to nerds. 
Chances are you'll end up working for one.

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desA (21-Aug-14)

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## Citizen X

:Offtopic: 

*Non National workers without the necessary permits/paperwork: The current legal position in South Africa*

1. The employee/employer contractual relationship is still governed by our Common Law. Incidentally, so are all contracts in South Africa;
2. One of the requirements of a valid contract is that the conclusion, object and purpose of a contract must be lawful[silly example: you can’t include in a contract that an employee is allowed to skip red robots to deliver goods as fast as possible];
3. There is a difference between protection of non- nationals [illegal workers] without paperwork in terms of the Constitution of the Republic of South Africa (Hereinafter the Constitution),[1] and protection in terms of the Labour Relations Act 66 of 1995[2]  (Hereinafter the LRA);[3]
4. McGregor _et al_ astutely uses 2 cases to illustrate, namely _Kylie v CCMA & others_ 2008 9 BLLR 870 (LC) and _Discovery Health Limited v Commission for Conciliation, Mediation and Arbitration & others_ 2008 29 ILJ 1480 (LC);[4]
5. In the first case Kylie is essentially a prostitute alternatively a sex worker[whichever is the more appropriate term in SA], that was employed by someone[escort agency or pimp whichever is the more appropriate term in SA]. The Labour Court ruled that Kylie was not entitled to the protection that other workers were entitled to under the LRA and could not pursue an unfair dismissal case[as the contract of employment verbal or otherwise was unlawful].[5] However the Labour Appeal Court took a different stance: The LAC held that the rights enshrined in the Constitution literally applies to ‘everyone.[6]’
6. Here is where sometimes the law may appear to not make sense when in actual fact it makes perfect sense[case law], a sex worker has the right to fair labour practices because section 23(1) of the Constitution,[7] states  _Everyone has the right to fair labour practices_.
7.McGregor _et al_  points out that a sex worker will also have the right to fair labour practices because of the employee/employer relationship. However, since the contract of employment is illegal, it cannot be enforced by the court or the CCMA i.e. unfair dismissal cannot be pursued on an illegal or unlawful contract.[8]

8. *Non- National worker without a permit:* In _Discovery Health Limited v Commission for Conciliation, Mediation and Arbitration & others_ 2008 29 ILJ 1480 (LC),[9] Prof McGregor uses this case to teach us that that when an employee has a valid employment contract but no valid work permit, such an employee cannot pursue an unfair dismissal claim.[10]
9. The point of departure[excuse the pun] is section 38 of the Immigration Act 13 of 2002[11] (Hereinafter, the Immigration Act), provides as follows:

38. Employment
(1) *No person* shall employ-
(a) an illegal foreigner;
(b) a foreigner whose status does not authorise him or her to be employed by such person; or
(c) a foreigner on terms, terms and conditions or in a capacity different from those contemplated in such foreigner’s status.
(2) An employer shall make a good faith effort to ascertain that no illegal foreigner is employed by him or her or to ascertain the status or citizenship of those whom he or she employs.
(3) _If it is proven, other than by means of the presumption referred to in subsection (5), that a person was employed in violation of subsection (1), it shall be presumed that the employer knew at the time of the employment that such person was among those referred to in subsection (1), unless such employer proves that he or she-_
(a) employed such person in good faith; and
(b) complied with subsection (2), provided that a stricter compliance shall be required of any employer who employs more than five employees or has been found guilty of a prior offence under this Act related to this section.
(4) An employer employing a foreigner shall-
(a) for two years after the termination of such foreigner’s employment, keep the prescribed records relating thereto; and
(b) report to the Director-General -
(i) the termination of such foreigner’s employment; and
(ii) any breach on the side of the foreigner of his or her status.
[Subs. (4) amended by s. 47 of Act 19/2004]
(*5) If an illegal foreigner is found on any premises where a business is conducted, it shall be presumed that such foreigner was employed by the person who has control over such premises, unless prima facie evidence to the contrary is adduced.*
10. An ‘illegal Foreigner,’ still has the right to a salary etc as this a the right to fair labour practices..

As a layman to basically everything, my advice is don’t take a route that will cause your business to be in trouble at a later stage…it is as it is..

 [1] Constitution

[2] LRA

[3] McGregor M _et al_ Labour Law Rules 21

[4] McGregor M _et al_ Labour Law Rules 21, 22, 23

[5] McGregor M _et al_ Labour Law Rules 21, 22, 23

[6] McGregor M _et al_ Labour Law Rules 21, 22, 23

[7] Constitution

[8] McGregor M _et al_ Labour Law Rules 21, 22, 23


[9] McGregor M _et al_ Labour Law Rules 21, 22, 23

[10] McGregor M _et al_ Labour Law Rules 21, 22, 23


[11] Immigration Act

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## HR Solutions

Vanash - it's totally on topic - and relates to Local people specifically as well !

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Citizen X (22-Aug-14)

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