# Social Category > South African Politics Forum >  The truth about South Africa

## pietpetoors

I have this idea to start a web site telling the truth about SA.

I am so fedup about with the land issue.
The reality is that many moons ago there were no black people in the largest area of South Africa, only Khoi.
So blacks did as little own land in South Africa as white people did.
They accuse whites of stealing the land from the blacks, but that was only after the blacks stole it from the khoi.

I also read in one of the comments on one of the newspaper web sites once that before we became a British colony it was against the law in the Cape to discriminate against other races.
I do not have that much knowledge about our history, but if that is true it means that this whole hardship and crap the anc cries about is a lot of bull because then the discrimination and crap were only for about 50 years, not 300 years as they would like people to believe.

Another thing that bothers me is the whole school and education issue. According to them the cruel appartheid government denied blacks education.
As child I did not know much about appartheid because my parents taught us to treat everybody with respect, even the black people.
When I started to realise there is problems in SA I think I was about St8 or so. But then I could not understand what the education issue was. In the townships I saw schools the government built for them, in some towns the schools in the townships seemed to be newer and bigger than in town itself. What I did see was that the black people had some problem with the schools and they boycot the schools, stoned the schools and even set it alight.

So it was provided for but they decided not to grab the opportunity. I know there was a problem with farm schools, they were few and far between and farm workers could not send their children to boarding school both for financial reasons and because appartheid would not allow them in a boarding school or white school.

When I studied at the Technicon of Pretoria from 1990 to 1994 there were black people with us. That was in the appartheid era. So if they denied them education, how in the first place did they get matric so they could be allowed in Technikon? When I was first year there was a third year black student as well which means if he passed all his years he must have started studying at the technicon at about 1988, matriculated in 1987 thus started school in 1975, how did he manage to do it but millions of others were "denied" an education? 

Also there are so many qualified black engineers and doctor aged between 40 and 50, if they were denied an education, where did they come from?

Who denied them an education, really the government of the time? Or was it their political leaders who decided they must boycot the schools, thus the anc denied black South Africans an education, not the government.

I am too "young" to have experienced what the true appartheid was like. I totally condemn the whole appartheid era and think it was absolutely cruel do treat fellow human beings like that.
But it also cheezes me off very much that mostly Afrikaners are accused of appartheid and that while appartheid laws were introduced by the British government in the late fifties and the afrikaners inherited it after SA became a republic in 1961. Nobody ever say anything that appartheid was design and implemented by the British Kingdom and now we have to bear the punishment. The biggest mistake the appartheid government made was to not scrap the British appartheid laws, but to keep it and expand it.

But is it only me or is there more people who think that a web site stating well studied history material by knowledgeable people will help to put everything in perspective.

I also find that most young black and coloured people (out of comments by them on newspaper web sites) do not know our country's true history. They know only the selective history they were brain washed with after the anc came into rule. The selective history our children were taught is part of the problem that keeps the pain and hatred alive. When my children were at school my blood boiled each time I read their history books.

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BernieDew (20-May-15), Brett Nortje (21-Feb-15), Butch Hannan (06-May-15)

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## Dave A

The first challenge is getting the truth properly assembled in the first place, I guess. For example:



> Nobody ever say anything that appartheid was design and implemented by the British Kingdom and now we have to bear the punishment.


There might be a good reason for that  :Stick Out Tongue: 
Fair chance it indicates a little more critical research might be required.

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## adrianh

History is written by the victor therefore your version of history will be thought of as fiction.

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## Pap_sak

Wow, even the black people hey?




> As child I did not know much about appartheid because my parents taught us to treat everybody with respect, even the black people


Sometimes I am just amazed at white guys in SA - do you not listen to to what you say and write? 

On your topic, although I agree to a point - the ANC would have us believe there was absolutely no chance a black guy could get anywhere in the old SA. You might want to add the biggest hospital in the southern hemisphere, homelands and FNB stadium as other "heinous" crimes the old Nats inflicted on the indigenous folk. 

But a few photographs of "no blacks" on benches, beaches, dompas, townships, forced removals ect ect will undo all that in seconds. So, IMO, you right - some facts are being conveniently swept under the carpet - but if I was black, I certainly would not think that it would make too much of a difference to being treat like a third class citizen for decades.

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## pietpetoors

Funny thing is forced removals are still happening today. Luckily now it is not racism anymore, no it is just plain unfair or something.

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## Butch Hannan

http://www.thesouthafrican.com/this-...the-xenophobicI believe that our country is a land of perceptions. It is perceived in many different ways by many different people. Each believes that his perception is the correct one. Nobody is going to admit that he is wrong.
I am so tired of apologising for my white skin for the many perceived wrongs committed by me. The cancer we have at the top of the tree needs to be cured. Our president needs to say he is sorry for stealing so much money to build Nkandla. He in all probability has a perception that apartheid made him do it!!!

Have a look at the Nandos Advert which was banned at some stage.

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## wynn

What I find interesting and is never touched upon is that Jan Van Riebeeck landed in the cape nearly 75 years before there was a 'Zulu' nation, before that there were just a whole lot of groups of bickering Nguni tribes who had probably not been in the area for more than a century or two.

see Wikipedia. Zulu and JVR

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BernieDew (20-May-15)

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## Butch Hannan

What is not taught in schools is that there were two migrations of black people southwards. One evidently started from the Chad region and the other one from, I think, the Rift Valley area. The original people of this part of the world were the Khoi and San and if anyone has a claim to this land it is these people. Someone needs to get it through to Zuma and his cronies that his ancestors were migrants from elsewhere.

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## tec0

The past is the past. What must happen now is the UN must be given cause for investigation and auditing. Causes can range on laws, crime and corruption. Once a body is appointed to investigate can the facts be presented as they are today not as there where a billion years ago. 

Once the investigation process is completed and determent who is accountable for what and what the actions must be taken. Responsibility will then rest on the UN and there decisions. 

The reality is Africa is needed to produce food, maintain infrastructure to contribute to world sustainability. In truth there is more then enough but right now it is not accessible.

ALL political parties has a responsibility towards the people to ask for and contribute to the UN and keep them up to date on new laws, changes of laws and removal of laws. They have the responsibility to report and question public statements. They have a responsibility to supply proof to aid in the quest for true transparency. 

my question is why is it not happening?

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## adrianh

Because South Africa is an insignificant wart at the tip of Africa.

I like to refer to our butt end of the eart as ZAzoo

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wynn (11-May-15)

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## Phil Cooper

The main problem we now have is the culture of entitlement.

Of you look at the far East, countries like Malaysia, they have NO raw materials, etc., but have to import the loy. Over a couple of decades they have gone from broke to some of the richest countries in the world?

Why? It is called a work ethic.

Their workers work 12 hours a day, 7 days a week, to produce the goods from the imported raw materials. They earn a pittance, which makes their goods very competitive world wide.

While NOT insinuating that those working hours are right, we are at the completely opposite side of the tipping scale.

We are the opposite side of the balance pole to Malaysia. We have un-dreamed of potential - a large work force, great climate, a great internal infrastructure (albeit deteriorating), etc.

So why are we not en route to richness, growth and a great furure for all?

Simple.

Unions demand higher and higher pay and benefits for their members, and less and less working time: less production for more benefits.

They cannot, and will not, see that this makes us LESS competitive in world markets (the clothing industry is good example - even the ANC import T-Shirts from China for their functions as the local versions are too expensive.

They want local shops to only stock locally-manufactured goods to support the local (expensive) industries. They won't see that their members (already below/just on) the breadline, cannot afford to pay, say, 35% - 40% more for the same shirt they could get the previous week from China - etc.

In a nutshell - we need a decent work ethic, with people's income linked to production. 

If a person does not produce, be able to fire him/her, and replace with a productiove person.

The opposite of where people who are dishonest, and are caught stealing red handed, cannot be fired, but Unions will support them and forse employees to keep them on.

And then they wonder why foreign investment goes elsewhere.  And even local investors are moving to Botswana or Lesotho. They "don't understand it".  Do you?

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Butch Hannan (12-May-15)

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## tec0

> If a person does not produce, be able to fire him/her, and replace with a productiove person.
> 
> The opposite of where people who are dishonest, and are caught stealing red handed, cannot be fired, but Unions will support them and forse employees to keep them on.


Our problems regardless of their complexities can be solved easily without having to resort to slavery. In some African countries a young boy will be forced to work and if they don't die while doing the work the tyrant will cut their hands off if they are unsuccessful or just for sport. This is a simple reality and the legacy of cruelty doesn't stop there.  

YES our unions love to use force and fail to grasp the fundamentals but that said I have seen many young woman/men facing disability and even death due to poor health and safety and forced situations.  

This range from amputation of limbs and to brain damage to blindness.  You cannot deny that there must be a line that employers must not be able to cross. and If they do cross the line that there will be a decisive action.  

Entitlement itself must not be confused with basic standards. In many first world countries a basic income can provide for a individual and can afford that individual some  quality of life. To work for a loaf of bread per day isn't acceptable. 

You cannot expect a person to work 12 hours a day performing a task and only pay them R20 for the day or R560 a month . That employee has no quality of life and no investment prospect for their retirement. Thus that person will become a burden to the taxpaying public regardless of the fact that she/he are employed.  

Having a stronger currency will provide for a better quality of life.  

The very simple question we as a people must ask is this. Is our demands reasonable? Is our actions Reasonable? and you will find that employers, employees and unions are not always right 

Thus practical solutions and dialogue must be part of the system and sadly it is not.

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## adrianh

tec0 - you need to employ people and then you will see exactly how useless South African labour is. It is not about money, a foreigner works twice as hard and doesn't give you any nonsense. South Africans are lazy, have a culture of entitlement and no matter how much you pay them they still complain, strike and steal. It is simply the nature of the beast!

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## pietpetoors

Because the anc tells the UN that everything is fine down here, there are no problems (of course) and no racism or anything funny.
I heard Solidariteit is now taking the correct stats and information to the UN.

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## Butch Hannan

You have summed up the situation very well. The daughter of the maid who works for us matriculated last year with a fairly decent matric. She has managed to get a job as a packer at the local Clicks. She has stated that she is going to give up this job "as the money is too little." We explained to her that she at least had a job and she should look at it as a starting point and should be able to work herself up the ladder. When they see what their leaders are earning this no doubt creates unrealistic expectations.
This attitude of entitlement is one very small step away from anarchy!!!

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## HR Solutions

> tec0 - you need to employ people and then you will see exactly how useless South African labour is. It is not about money, a foreigner works twice as hard and doesn't give you any nonsense. South Africans are lazy, have a culture of entitlement and no matter how much you pay them they still complain, strike and steal. It is simply the nature of the beast!


Yep Im afraid you are totally right.  The majority of South Africans are lazy and do not want to work.  They do not have pride in where they live, where they work and where they play.  




> Our problems regardless of their complexities can be solved easily


Our problems are NOT easy to fix, but they are fixable.  Perhaps the ANC should have a look at the Western Cape.  Down there a lot more people have pride in what they do, from the street cleaner to the municipality to traffic authorities etc.  The efficiency of the DA government is fantastic.

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## pietpetoors

The speech of Heman Mashaba at a Solidarity Conference is a very good read. 

http://www.politicsweb.co.za/news-an...herman-mashaba

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## vieome

> You have summed up the situation very well. The daughter of the maid who works for us matriculated last year with a fairly decent matric. She has managed to get a job as a packer at the local Clicks. She has stated that she is going to give up this job "as the money is too little." We explained to her that she at least had a job and she should look at it as a starting point and should be able to work herself up the ladder. When they see what their leaders are earning this no doubt creates unrealistic expectations.
> This attitude of entitlement is one very small step away from anarchy!!!


I really cant understand this kind of thinking, we put pressure on our kids to get matric, and after matric, we dont want them to feel they are entitled to more then a basic level packing job. Or we send them off to university, and then expect with a marketing degree they must settle into a basic sales job. 

Are we mistaking people who seek a better opportunity as people who feel they are entitled. What is wrong with someone who has finished 12 years of education feeling that they are entitled to more then a basic packing job? 

@adrianh
"It is simply the nature of the beast" true and ironic as well, as in zimbabweans working in SA who are known to be good workers, yet when Zimbabwe was a British coloney they could not get the Zimbabweans to work, they(british) had to import labour from Malawi.

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tec0 (18-May-15)

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## BusFact

Well, it comes down to why she is giving up the job and what her plan is. I think we are all for her resigning so that she can start work at a better, higher paying job the next day or month. I don't think anyone is asking for her to settle for being a packer forever.

I'd say that the issue is if she plans to simply resign without another work prospect lined up. The attitude where she will not work at all if her expected job expectations are not met, is where it becomes problematic. Surely the best way forward is to continue with the current low paying job, whilst you line up your next assignment?

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## HR Solutions

> Surely the best way forward is to continue with the current low paying job, whilst you line up your next assignment?


Spot on  :Smile:

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## vieome

So what would you say is worse.
matric student who accepts job as packer and quits without another job lined up.
Or matric student who is unemployed and refuses job offer to be a packer?

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## BusFact

I'd say they are equally "bad". The end result is the same - unemployed. That is choosing unemployment despite having an opportunity to work. Someone like that can't complain about poverty.

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## cyppokagain

> The main problem we now have is the culture of entitlement.
> 
> Of you look at the far East, countries like Malaysia, they have NO raw materials, etc., but have to import the loy. Over a couple of decades they have gone from broke to some of the richest countries in the world?
> 
> Why? It is called a work ethic.
> 
> Their workers work 12 hours a day, 7 days a week, to produce the goods from the imported raw materials. They earn a pittance, which makes their goods very competitive world wide.
> 
> While NOT insinuating that those working hours are right, we are at the completely opposite side of the tipping scale.
> ...


Malaysia is a very rich country, both raw material wise and otherwise... Oil, Natural Rubber plantations, Palm oil plantations, etc and etc... 
Singapore has no raw materials but it is essentially a clearing house for trade in Asia as well as a juristinction of corporate security in a sense.

South Korea would be a good example... but it got subsidized indirectly through having assess to the U.S. market. But the work ethic is there, however absent a market that work ethic is worthless... case and point is Indonesia which doesn't have much assess to other markets and is relatively poor per capita even though it is actually not that badly positioned resource wise.

Your argument rests on having comparative advantage (being more efficient or having slack of ability to produce what others need in a trade exchange market)
you are ignoring that the world as a whole can produce many times over what it needs, the problem is demand that could pay for it which is exacerbated by the monetary games that are going on at all levels of the world market both internally and externally.


Success requires certain things, an ability to benefit from your good decisions (ergo laws that protect you and not rob you)
an ability to reach a market and be accepted in it, as well as, clear transactions successfully
access to resources for added value or production of services for exchange, perhaps a few other aspects as well.

I am going to give you an example of how things break down even if you have everything aligned in your favor.
Imagine you have good laws, your product is accepted, and you have access to raw materials. 
Then the global economy slows down and you have a slack of demand for your product globally, firms fail, and their inventory is 
thrown into the market to clear at prices below your cost pushing you to the edge. Some countries would enact trade barriers for their industry
to not suffer, others wouldn't, if the former are successful then pro-rata share of below price inventory enters the later and puts more pressure 
on those firms. From that point lots of things could occur to make it worse or better.

In some sense countries that choose mild Autarky in a sphere(industry) or two and protect themselves could be better off, but in today's world of global trade
this is essentially not accepted, and would be fairly painful since WTO and other institutions would come down on that country.

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## Hannes Botha

I was just reading Plato's take on Democracy here and what he says makes perfect sense. A government elected by the people elects the most popular person to run government. Then he asks the question, if you have appendicitis, do you want the most popular doctor performing the operation? Or the best doctor?

Fact is, our economy was the strongest when the least popular where in charge. You could actually buy a dollar for less than R1 in the 1960's. I am by no means a political expert, but this just seemed to make sense to me, when I read it...

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## Blurock

[QUOTE]


> I really cant understand this kind of thinking, we put pressure on our kids to get matric, and after matric, we dont want them to feel they are entitled to more then a basic level packing job. Or we send them off to university, and then expect with a marketing degree they must settle into a basic sales job. 
> 
> Are we mistaking people who seek a better opportunity as people who feel they are entitled. What is wrong with someone who has finished 12 years of education feeling that they are entitled to more then a basic packing job?



The problem is a lack of work ethic and the notion that certain types of work "is below me". Whether you have a degree or not, everyone has to start somewhere. When I grew up, people were grateful just to have a job. They were prepared to work hard, long hours to prove that they had the ability to be trusted with more authority and responsibility.  They equipped themselves with the skills to achieve their goals. They progressed on the ladder of achievement. They did not get a piece of paper and then demanded to be a manager.

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## tec0

> The problem is a lack of work ethic and the notion that certain types of work "is below me". Whether you have a degree or not, everyone has to start somewhere. When I grew up, people were grateful just to have a job.


Yea tell you what, do this for just 1 week if you can. take R20 a day and live only on that R20. Put petrol in your car with it, do your shopping with it, buy your medication with it and see what quality of life it affords you. It is so very easy to say the above "types of jobs are below someone" There is no way in HELL that you will spend your time and effort on a contract that will cost you more then what you will make. YET you expect people to do just that. 

People get upset with me but see i was on the other end of that stick. Here is a little fact for you. You cannot live on experience alone, you need the qualifications. Now most companies deny you the qualification and or income sometimes both. You are NEVER GOOD ENOUGH until you leave and then they must get someone with the "skill" and they cannot! Why because no skillful person will take a job what will cost them more then what they earn in a month.    

A few jobs ago or more then a few... I worked for a man doing server installations. My pay per month was R900 "i think i cannot remember if it was R1400 or R900" but i do believe it was R900 and i worked about 12 to 15 hours a day. Then my transport broke down... I couldn't fix it. 6 weeks in his business went belly up... Why because no qualified MCSE at the time would work for what i was willing to work for. He lost it all. 

So yes, There is a fine line in "taking any job" and taking a job that will cost you MORE then what you earn. 

So what is wrong with this Country... simple answer GREED...

---edit--- 

Actually checked my scans "i kept a record of all the jobs i ever had" it was R900. Just also to add, before i started getting money i worked for free for a long long time.

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## HR Solutions

Blurock I totally agree with you.  There are too many people that feel they are above starting at the bottom or find any excuse under the sun to start working at the bottom or for a lower salary. My son is qualifying this year and I expect him to start right at the bottom and if the salary is not good enough to cover his car that might break down then he must get a second night job. If this is still not good enough then he must ask people for a lift.  He must accept the job, prove himself and work himself up !!! Being in recruitment I have heard all the excuses over the years ..... And the scary thing is, the excuses all come from the people who think the world owes them or companies owe them etc etc etc.  

Those people who are prepared to walk 8km for an interview and are then still prepared to walk that distance if they get the job will make it (and yes I have had a candidate who did that) - he has been there approx a year now and is flying - respect to him - he never found or made excuses !

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## tec0

Have to work your way to the top... I suspect that people do lose touch with the real world from time to time so once again i will take some time to explain the situation. Your average rent for a single bedroom apartment will set you back about R2000 excluding power. I confirmed with a few people and that is there asking price. No pets and the person must be single. Secondly it exclude electricity. Your average car will cost about R2700 depending on make model and insurance. Your average day to day "bread" depending on brand range from R7.50 to R9.00 and if you need low GI that will set you back about R15.00.

So you will need R2000+R2700= R4700.00 after tax, Just to cover your transport and a place to sleep. Now that is R151,62 Per day for 31 days. Now basic foods will set you back about R15 a day for 1 person for 1 meal {cheapest we have here in my area) That means just to eat a single meal a day will set you back R465.00 a month give or take. Now my car is really light on fuel so i will use it as an example, takes about R630.00 to fill it to the brim with 95 unleaded. Normally that last me for 3 weeks... 

Now here is the math 
2000+2700+465.00+630.00=5795.00
5795.00/31= 186,94

That means for the absolute basics you need R186.94 per day after tax

that runs to R18,70 per hour for 10 hours. Now most people i know "on the so called low end" earn R6,45 per hours... 

Yes people must start at the bottom and work there way up BUT the bottom income need to be about R6000 or better, otherwise a person cannot survive. 

Now before people tell me how crazy i am, i did not include medical aid or other bills or even other basics in this estimation... And honestly would you "the top dog" work for R6.50 per hour? Because that is exactly what you expect others must do.

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## HR Solutions

Just two little things u could change from your budget :
1.  Buy a cheaper or second hand car which will not cost u anywhere near R2700. Why oh why do you want / expect such an expensive car when you are starting out in life ???
2.  Live with your parents for as long as possible to keep your rent down while u start out in life and this woul help you on the food side as well.  Nothing wrong with living with your parents 6 to 12 months after you either finish school or qualify from your studies !

So in fact I am "in touch" with reality because I can safely say I have been there and I have kids that have been there and are still there !

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## tec0

> Just two little things u could change from your budget :
> 1.  Buy a cheaper or second hand car which will not cost u anywhere near R2700. Why oh why do you want / expect such an expensive car when you are starting out in life ???
> 2.  Live with your parents for as long as possible to keep your rent down while u start out in life and this woul help you on the food side as well.  Nothing wrong with living with your parents 6 to 12 months after you either finish school or qualify from your studies !
> 
> So in fact I am "in touch" with reality because I can safely say I have been there and I have kids that have been there and are still there !


A great deal of people don't have that support. Secondly second hand transport is not always a good deal and can leave you in a mess or in a dangerous situation. A proper secondhand car is a must because we live in dangerous times. A safe place to sleep at night is a must because we live in dangerous times. Yes you can start with a lower income but your car "regardless of age" will need maintenance and that do cost money. Public transport for many of us is not a option.  

Be honest with yourself, can you truly survive on R6.45 a hour? Car guards earn more then that. 

I agree fully you need to start at the bottom and climb up. But if a car guard earns more then you, and the job has no future "and many jobs don't" then people tend to get stuck. You know this happens i am sure you must have seen it happen at least once in your life. 

To continue with this train of thought, many people don't get training and or get qualified but work under a qualified person. The company sadly had no intention to do formal certifiable training. I have seen this time and again. And not from small businesses mind you. Some of them are very large and has the ability to easily afford training.  

You will never work for free, well R6.45 is not money and with our weak Rand... What more can i say. 

Greed is an ugly thing, and because of it there is no middle ground anymore.

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## HR Solutions

Unfortunately lazy people will ALWAYS find some excuse not to work ! If they have any bit of ambition in them they would make any plan and get out there and make it happen.

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## Blurock

If you want to work, you will find something to do, even wash cars or do gardens just to start somewhere. Once you have a job, it is easier to move on the the next, better job than to sit at home. By waiting on tables in a restaurant or washing windows, you meet people. When people see and realise your work ethic, they will often assist you to get a better job, but sitting at home isolates you and does not get you anywhere. You have to set yourself goals and pursue your dreams.

I know of more than one entrepreneur who started out like this. One started by selling fruit and veg in the townships with money he borrowed from his Gogo. As the business grew he moved into town where he met other people and started buying directly from the market as a group to make better margins. He then started hiring people to sell on his behalf, while he was pursuing other business interests.  Today he is a successful food manufacturer with two awards as businessman of the year and an MBA under his belt.

Another guy worked as an electrician and was apparently good at his job. When his boss would not allow him to do his trade test, he quit and went to work for an air conditioning concern. He learnt all he could and obtained the necessary qualifications. Today he is a co-owner of his own air conditioning business with a number of corporate businesses as customers.

A guy who worked for us as a gardener became a policeman. He is now enrolled for a BCom at University.

I know of car guards who became security officers due to a job well done and their involvement in getting criminals caught. Sadly, I also offered a youngster a job as trainee lab assistant. he never pitched for the job and recently I saw him working as a car guard... 

What is your ambition in life?

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## tec0

wow i just deleted a hell of a lot...  :Confused:  

I realized i am wasting my time trying to explain to you, the world you are living in. What is wrong with South Africa... All you have to do is look in the mirror.

You cannot change your views, you are set in your ways and you are always right and everybody else that does not conform is always wrong. You believe only on your own truth, you see only what you want to see, hear only what you want to hear. And because of this foundations will crumble the mighty will fall and will go to hell in a breadbasket...  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 

Good luck with your world, you are going to need it.  :Cool:

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## HR Solutions

> I realized i am wasting my time trying to explain to you


Yes you are etc.  Unfortunately the facts are the facts and you cannot deny it.

Just thought I would share another short story....

So often we have candidates that do not pitch up for interviews.  Do you have any idea which ones they are ?  The majority are the nemployed ones !  Im sure you are going to say that its because of transport or something like that and my answer would be they have cell phones - why is it that you can never get hold of them when this happens ? - the cell phone is always off !  Why do they not phone and say they can't make it ? Or send a message to our system which they are told about before hand ? Therefore this is only ONE of my reasons why I say that some people do NOT want to work - they want to put their cv out there so that they can say they are trying but they really don't want to work at the end of the day.

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## tec0

> Yes you are etc.  Unfortunately the facts are the facts and you cannot deny it.
> 
> Just thought I would share another short story....
> 
> So often we have candidates that do not pitch up for interviews.  Do you have any idea which ones they are ?  The majority are the nemployed ones !  Im sure you are going to say that its because of transport or something like that and my answer would be they have cell phones - why is it that you can never get hold of them when this happens ? - the cell phone is always off !  Why do they not phone and say they can't make it ? Or send a message to our system which they are told about before hand ? Therefore this is only ONE of my reasons why I say that some people do NOT want to work - they want to put their cv out there so that they can say they are trying but they really don't want to work at the end of the day.


LOL no deleted a lot of stuff yet again  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 

Facts? Here is some facts for you... 

Fact, people don't show up for interviews anymore because they had so many rejections they cannot handle it anymore? My proof a graveyard filled with 18 year old and 21 year old that was told on many occasions they are not good enough so they took there own lives. Cause "depression" More to the point a 14 year old took her own life not to long ago. I personally went trough the screening process about wow i actually did lost count. More then a 100 times... My CV never made it to the interview stage. And you yourself said you will shut the door on me. If you recall. I understand you said it in anger at the time but my guess is you haven't changed your mind on that or on me or on people just like me. 

Fact, more people spend money on sport then what they will on a young woman/man trying to get educated. Why because you believe she/he must suffer every step of the way. Hence why many give up on there studies because they couldn't keep the two jobs and study. Many of them also end up becoming druggies, and die. 

Fact, is you don't even know about the countless people that work and remain in poverty because there are no opportunity for them. They cannot better themselves because they are to busy surviving from one day to the next. They must sleep in placed you won't, do the jobs you won't and live on money that you will spend on your morning coffee. They lose there family members to violence, slavers, addiction, illness and doggy power connections. Yet you demand from them to stand up while criminals are doing there best to keep these people in fear. They don't plant food because someone will burn it, they don't take risks because they are already sleeping with one eye open. 

Fact, is you don't even know what you don't know and you never bothered to find out. It is easy enough go to a local university the rich dad's kids are smiling having one hell of a time. the kid you don't see, the one hidden from your eye is waiting tables selling her body at a local strip club to pay for her education. Using medication or drugs just to forget what they have to do and are doing. Slowly turning them into slaves. You will deny there existence but i know better. There are programs run by good people that is dedicated to pull those young people out trying to give them a better life. Many police stations and volunteers are honestly doing ALL they can... But the wealthy with a few million in the bank will not bother... The world is not broken in there eyes. 

You can stand on your head you will NEVER convince me that people are just lazy... Something in them broke... I know this because i took the time to understand. I do what i can, i am not wealthy not strong nor able... BUT i do what i can... 

Will you?

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## wynn

I tried googling for the minimum wage tables and got lost because I could find nothing newer than 2014 but it seems that the minimum wage for domestic type work for 2014 was +- R2400.00 PM and that deductible allowances such as accommodation could not total more than 10%

I certainly could not live on that even if I tightened by belt to the dimension of my spine.

Having just said that, I also believe that if a Government dictates a minimum wage all that happens is that the 'Breadline' moves up to that level.

Economics, if left unfettered will, stabilize a wage level that people will not work below, or will only work at for a short period.

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## HR Solutions

Ok tec ...... you must be right with all your "facts" ummmmm Im sure my 30 odd years of experience doesn't count. And I probably haven't ever researched anything or dome my "homework" ..... ever




> Fact, is you don't even know what you don't know and you never bothered to find out


Lol ... OK

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## Pap_sak

Wynn - one of the worst paying sectors is retail - and as can be seen here the lowest you going to earn is around R16 p/h http://www.labour.gov.za/DOL/downloa...es2015to16.pdf

Highly unlikely that they will be thinking of low GI or paying R2700 for a car  :Smile: 

And I think you would find shared accommodation and public transport would be the norm in the lower LSM groups Tec.

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## tec0

> Ok tec ...... you must be right with all your "facts" ummmmm Im sure my 30 odd years of experience doesn't count. And I probably haven't ever researched anything or dome my "homework" ..... ever
> Lol ... OK


again deleted a lot... In your 30 years i am sure you saw all kinds of things. But are you telling me you never saw or even have mentioned the things i wrote about here? In 30 years you never heard of young people taking there own lives due to depression? Or that depression can get so bad that a person stops trying? You are telling me that in 30 years you never heard of gang wars in townships or students doing prostitution to complete there studies? 

Well maybe you where lucky and never had to see "this stuff" or hear about it. It happens and if so then good... Because i sometimes wish i didn't know about this stuff...

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## tec0

> And I think you would find shared accommodation and public transport would be the norm in the lower LSM groups Tec.


Shared accommodation doesn't always work and pubic transport is not acceptable for most employers. On interview you will find that many of them wants you to have your own transport. Lastly low GI is a must have for some people.

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## HR Solutions

Nope tec I don't know anything ............. According to you. Let's just say ....... You are right and know everything ..... ok ?

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## Blurock

> wow i just deleted a hell of a lot...  
> 
> I realized i am wasting my time trying to explain to you, the world you are living in. What is wrong with South Africa... All you have to do is look in the mirror.
> 
> You cannot change your views, you are set in your ways and you are always right and everybody else that does not conform is always wrong. You believe only on your own truth, you see only what you want to see, hear only what you want to hear. And because of this foundations will crumble the mighty will fall and will go to hell in a breadbasket... 
> 
> Good luck with your world, you are going to need it.


There are definitely two sides of a coin. It does not help if you get stuck in your gospel truth and do not see the other side as well. In any race there are winners and losers. There are those that persevere and will run until their last breath, but they will finish the course. Then there are those that drop out because of reasons beyond their control, but often there are those that just give up without even trying or putting much effort into it. 

If you have the attitude of a loser, you will never make it in life. If have seen the poorest of the poor persevere and eventually make it through sheer preservation and hard work. A positive attitude and a friendly nature goes a long way in winning people over. You have to believe in yourself to make others believe in you as well.

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IanF (15-Sep-15)

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## tec0

> There are definitely two sides of a coin. It does not help if you get stuck in your gospel truth and do not see the other side as well. In any race there are winners and losers. There are those that persevere and will run until their last breath, but they will finish the course. Then there are those that drop out because of reasons beyond their control, but often there are those that just give up without even trying or putting much effort into it. 
> 
> If you have the attitude of a loser, you will never make it in life. If have seen the poorest of the poor persevere and eventually make it through sheer preservation and hard work. A positive attitude and a friendly nature goes a long way in winning people over. You have to believe in yourself to make others believe in you as well.


Attitude for the most part is purely secondary. The realities are that individuals have pressure points and once those points are activated it is very hard to turn off again. Example if you buy a pie at a place and you find a decapitated mouse inside it you will never eat there again. Why because you mind will forever remember that moment. If a boss handles you poorly then all bosses from that point onward will automatically fall under the same conclusion. Regardless if it is true or false. 

Example a few heated debates ago, some where under the opinion that all youngsters was lazy and want to sit at home and play video games and cry about missed opportunities and they refused to change there point of view. Now if that is a indication then surly the other side of the coin is also true. A simple refusal to try again because of a bad experience. 

See people on both sides of the coins deal with group mentality and not individual mentality and then the "guilty by association" kicks in and that becomes a real problem fast. Yes you get bad students/workers but you also get bad situations/companies and both needs to be recognized so that one can move forward. 

Example HR saw the one half and I the other half. We are conflicted because we never experienced what the other experienced thus our truths are truths but cannot be shared because we don't know what we don't know. I never bothered trying to find snobs not interested in work, HR may not want to go where i go and find the people i have found. It is perfectly reasonable but BOTH exists and are fact regardless. 

That is why it is important to identify yourself "look in the mirror" Question yourself "Is my general idea/concept within reason" and i will tell you outright i am completely one-sided and it is not good but so are other people...    

So in future i will take an interest in the the lazy person and see what makes them tick... But will others take in interest? That remains to be seen...

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## gac

Many of your points are valid but beware of using words like "them" because that allows the opponents of your views to divert the discussion in another direction away from points of validity.

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## Blurock

> Attitude for the most part is purely secondary. The realities are that individuals have pressure points and once those points are activated it is very hard to turn off again. Example if you buy a pie at a place and you find a decapitated mouse inside it you will never eat there again. Why because you mind will forever remember that moment. If a boss handles you poorly then all bosses from that point onward will automatically fall under the same conclusion. Regardless if it is true or false.


So all bosses are bad because of a past experience. Is that not an attitude problem? If you do find a good boss and you piss him off with that attitude, you would have already ruined your reputation.




> Example a few heated debates ago, some where under the opinion that all youngsters was lazy and want to sit at home and play video games and cry about missed opportunities and they refused to change there point of view. Now if that is a indication then surly the other side of the coin is also true. A simple refusal to try again because of a bad experience.


 A refusal to try again is the attitude of a loser. A winner will always try again, not by repeating the same mistakes, but learning from an experience and then approaching it differently. Not all youngsters are lazy. I have quoted enough examples to prove the fact. It just hurts so much when you see a guy with potential throw away his future due to a bad and lazy attitude. 




> See people on both sides of the coins deal with group mentality and not individual mentality and then the "guilty by association" kicks in and that becomes a real problem fast. Yes you get bad students/workers but you also get bad situations/companies and both needs to be recognized so that one can move forward.


 Glad you see the point. Group mentality and individual mentality is an attitude; it's a mindset, a way of thinking.





> That is why it is important to identify yourself "look in the mirror" Question yourself "Is my general idea/concept within reason" and i will tell you outright i am completely one-sided and it is not good but so are other people...


    Because other people are wrong, it does not make you less wrong. Do not look at what other people are doing to justify your actions. Be yourself and be the best that you can be.




> So in future i will take an interest in the the lazy person and see what makes them tick... But will others take in interest? That remains to be seen...


People do land in jobs that they are not suited or qualified for. Their lack of interest is often seen as being lazy or having the wrong attitude. Once they find their niche things often turn around. It is therefore important to know yourself. Identify your strengths and weaknesses, so that you can work around it.  You cannot be an accountant if you do not have an aptitude for figures. You can also not be a crane driver if you do not have the co-ordination required. Find out what you are good at and try and build on your own skills. Never stop learning. That way you will eventually find a job or an occupation that you like and that you can excell in.

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## HR Solutions

That's it in a nutshell ..... Don't be a loser - people must stop making excuses all the time !

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## Hannes Botha

It's all about attitude....Nobody in this forum is here because we gave up and decided all bosses all dumb....s

We are here because we kept trying...if we all gave up the first time we tried to walk...we'd all still be in a walking ring. Fact, neither me nor any other employer would give a negative employee a chance because he might've been ticked off by a previous prospective boss. I won't give somebody showing up at an interview with a bad attitude a chance period, don't really care his reason. I employ who is best for my business. I am not willing to risk my livelihood and my family's or my employees' livelihood and that of their families to prove to one jaded prospective not all bosses are not horses@$$eS, if that automatically makes me one, sorry....

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## tec0

Well right now 2000+ people will go into the unemployment market soon... "if things don't get better" Some are highly qualified and will go into competition with existing companies others will seek other employment. So many hands got burned here i am guessing that the rivalry will become relentless and the existing market is going to suffer dearly as customers will start to shop around again for new companies at lower cost. 

By next year that number will double and by the end of that year it will double again to a potential 8000+ people will be searching for jobs or starting something of there own. ALL of them will be a bit under the weather because to lose your job just because large companies are pulling out is not a good feeling. So yes there will be a lot of qualified people that is simply angry. 

Not cashing in and recruit will be a stupid mistake. Finding skill/qualified and experienced workers is not always easy so a personal point of view can well become the biggest mistake one can ever make. Because the other person will give it a chance "mainly your competition" I am hoping this can be avoided and the job losses will not be so high. 

As for attitude, Seven or 8 jobs ago i worked for a company that installed specialized server systems and the person above of me had a wonderful positive outlook and was always lively and just vibrant. The bosses liked him a lot and trusted him with a lot. Now i was there as contractor and once done they did a quality inspection and past the systems with flying colours. i got paid and on to the next job. 

A month in i was called in and the boss had a very serious look on his face. That lively guy he trusted ran off with about R140K and the outstanding contracts wasn't honoured. I grabbed the systems and did installs all month long putting in 40hour a day.  On completion i knew they couldn't pay me in full so i dropped my asking price with 70% thinking 30% is better then nothing. 

not to blow smoke up my own behind but the gloomy guy with the seemingly bad attitude saved the company, not the mister smily face

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## HR Solutions

> It's all about attitude....Nobody in this forum is here because we gave up and decided all bosses all dumb....s
> 
> We are here because we kept trying...if we all gave up the first time we tried to walk...we'd all still be in a walking ring. Fact, neither me nor any other employer would give a negative employee a chance because he might've been ticked off by a previous prospective boss. I won't give somebody showing up at an interview with a bad attitude a chance period, don't really care his reason. I employ who is best for my business. I am not willing to risk my livelihood and my family's or my employees' livelihood and that of their families to prove to one jaded prospective not all bosses are not horses@$$eS, if that automatically makes me one, sorry....



You are spot on Hannes - I am not going to let any lazy person that does not want to work affect me, my family, or my business. If they have a bad attitude and will not fit into our culture, they must look elsewhere.  Our culture is not going to change for them, otherwise we would be changing cultures all the time, and the also be losing current staff.

Business ethics, cultures & morals starts at the top.

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## Butch Hannan

Teco- Please tell us what the solution is and please do not go into a 5000 word verbose rhetorical answer. I challenge you to do it in less than 100 words.
My answer is "get rid of the ANC government. +-65% of the voters obviously voted for the ANC. A country deserves the government it has. (less than 50 words)

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## Blurock

> Well right now 2000+ people will go into the unemployment market soon... "if things don't get better" Some are highly qualified and will go into competition with existing companies others will seek other employment. So many hands got burned here i am guessing that the rivalry will become relentless and the existing market is going to suffer dearly as customers will start to shop around again for new companies at lower cost.


Actually, many more than 2000 people will lose their jobs because of a meltdown of our economy. This is not the fault of big business or small business, but mainly caused by the ineffectiveness of your government. (read: Escom, Post office, SAA, Municipalities, the list goes on and on.) A business simply cannot survive if business is not generated and there is no growth. 

To retain the good workers in the firm, we will first let the oxygen thieves go. That way we can ride out the storm and be certain that the good guys will still be available when the upturn comes. Once a business closes its doors, it is not just the staff that is affected, it is also their dependants, the suppliers and service providers of the business etc etc. Because there's such a fine line between success and bankruptcy, one has to choose the best players. One cannot win a world cup with players that are not prepared to sweat.

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## HR Solutions

Again I would like to say that from a recruitment point of view there are a lot of jobs out there.  The problem is finding the right person.  The right person that is either qualified, experience, prepared to work, the right attitude etc etc etc.  

I am tired of people saying there is no work out there. ! There is.  And tec please do not tell me that I am wrong when I say this.  Our company has been going over 12 years.  There is work out there.  Companies are obviously becoming more fussy when hiring due to a number of reasons e.g. labour laws etc etc  including attitude.  If you read up the modern way of treating staff is totally different to 30 years ago.  Young people nowadays want instant gratification (the y generation) - companies are changing with the times.

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## Pap_sak

One problem that I have noticed, is that kids seldom have a part time job. 25 years ago it was unusual (at least with my friends) not to have a weekend job. Teaches you a lot.

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## tec0

> the ineffectiveness of your government.


my government? You are going to insult me like that come on Blurock that was knee to balls...  :No:

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## tec0

> the good guys will still be available when the upturn comes.


I don't agree everyone i know is heading out of the country. And they are not planning in coming back. I spoke to a guy 2 weeks ago, he is also heading out and want me there as well as my multi skills aided his company many times in the past. So he will be setting up a sponsorship for me and my family as soon as he touch ground. 

He is in the process now and once that is done he will start the process for me and 3 other families to go over because he needs us close as we make a formidable team when it comes to actual work being done. That is the game plan for most qualified people. So i don't know who will remain in the end of the day, i honestly cannot say but most people are tried of all the stuff that is happening and wants a new start. i cannot blame them and as my friend spoke to me and took the time to spoke to me he convinced me to take a chance on him and i trust him i trust what he can do and what he can accomplish. He knows my skill-set and can trust that i can deliver good results.

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## tec0

> Again I would like to say that from a recruitment point of view there are a lot of jobs out there.  The problem is finding the right person.  The right person that is either qualified, experience, prepared to work, the right attitude etc etc etc.  
> 
> I am tired of people saying there is no work out there. ! There is.  And tec please do not tell me that I am wrong when I say this.  Our company has been going over 12 years.  There is work out there.  Companies are obviously becoming more fussy when hiring due to a number of reasons e.g. labour laws etc etc  including attitude.  If you read up the modern way of treating staff is totally different to 30 years ago.  Young people nowadays want instant gratification (the y generation) - companies are changing with the times.



100% there is a ton of work out there as you say. But it is not accessible to all. You yourself spoke about implementing screening the applicants. Then there are labour brokers and there processes. 

Lastly young people today, walk around with burned faces, chemical burns on the skin. a young lad died following his bosses orders a while go. 4 burned to death and other one was cut in half by a cable snap. Safety is key factor and to date a lot of investigations but... the outcome remains to be seen? So please don't assume for a moment that every job is worth it... it is not.  You got all types on both sides of the coin. 

Interesting question, when a customer "employer/company" goes to you for recruitment do you check them out as well? 

Good name? 
Good safety record? 
Good reputation at the CCMA? 
Good policy foundation? 
Good company ethic? 

so on and so forth? 

You don't need to answer that but at least think about it.

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## HR Solutions

No I don't check the companies out.  It is not my job.  My job is to supply them with good staff.
We have in the past "fired" clients due to various factors ...... One being ethics,

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## Blurock

> I don't agree everyone i know is heading out of the country. And they are not planning in coming back. I spoke to a guy 2 weeks ago, he is also heading out and want me there as well as my multi skills aided his company many times in the past. So he will be setting up a sponsorship for me and my family as soon as he touch ground. 
> 
> He is in the process now and once that is done he will start the process for me and 3 other families to go over because he needs us close as we make a formidable team when it comes to actual work being done. That is the game plan for most qualified people. So i don't know who will remain in the end of the day, i honestly cannot say but most people are tried of all the stuff that is happening and wants a new start. i cannot blame them and as my friend spoke to me and took the time to spoke to me he convinced me to take a chance on him and i trust him i trust what he can do and what he can accomplish. He knows my skill-set and can trust that i can deliver good results.


Point proven. Ineffectiveness of government is affecting business adversely. As a result, qualified people are leaving the country. So what are we, the people going to do about that? The more skills we lose, the worse the future will be for those that stay behind.

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## tec0

> Point proven. Ineffectiveness of government is affecting business adversely. As a result, qualified people are leaving the country. So what are we, the people going to do about that? The more skills we lose, the worse the future will be for those that stay behind.


Well, friend of mine "also skilled" is now awaiting there fate. "Will the company close or remain open" He told me he will remain in the country and once everything has gone to the dogs will be part of the people that will start to rebuild... So there is that mindset as well. And yea he made good points.

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## tec0

> No I don't check the companies out.  It is not my job.  My job is to supply them with good staff.
> We have in the past "fired" clients due to various factors ...... One being ethics,


That is good to know  :Yes:  

See people talk, and check up on companies not just for employment but also doing business with them. Before i start a contract with a company i phone a friend ask him if did business with them and so on. About 3 days in I will get a text saying "x amount did work for them" and they are "happy" or "unhappy" with that company. If the word is bad i don't do work for that company if the word is good i normally start as soon as the paper work is in order. Word of mouth is very powerful tool for both contractor and employee. 

In the end of the day if a company has a bad reputation then payment might well be a problem and nobody has time for that...


6

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## adrianh

98% of people are at least one of...and many more of the following: useless, lazy, stupid, egotistical, complacent and many other nasty words.

I agree with HR, there is plenty of work but it is terribly difficult to find good people. Some people are dedicated and work their asses off, why, because it is their nature. Unfortunately those people are few and far between. Most people see work as the bull$ht they have to put up with to finance their leisure time. The reality of the matter is that the single biggest expense in many small businesses is staff salaries. The staff need to be productive enough that they are able to pay their own salaries, overhead costs and still make a profit. I've found that staff are simply oblivious to the fact that their salaries are directly related to their productivity. They seem to think that they get paid a fixed salary no matter what they do.

I have become extremely negative towards the idea of employing more people. I would far rather automate what I can and scale the rest down. I am tired of people coming to work late, f*ck1ng work up, being lazy and general complacency. Small business is a team sport...if the sport is soccer and the team is such that they always lose then it is better to get rid of the team and take up boxing. That way the ex-employer is free to fight whomever agrees to fight him and he takes full responsibility for the outcome.

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## tec0

> 98% of people are at least one of...and many more of the following: useless, lazy, stupid, egotistical, complacent and many other nasty words.
> 
> I agree with HR, there is plenty of work but it is terribly difficult to find good people. Some people are dedicated and work their asses off, why, because it is their nature. Unfortunately those people are few and far between. Most people see work as the bull$ht they have to put up with to finance their leisure time. The reality of the matter is that the single biggest expense in many small businesses is staff salaries. The staff need to be productive enough that they are able to pay their own salaries, overhead costs and still make a profit. I've found that staff are simply oblivious to the fact that their salaries are directly related to their productivity. They seem to think that they get paid a fixed salary no matter what they do.
> 
> I have become extremely negative towards the idea of employing more people. I would far rather automate what I can and scale the rest down. I am tired of people coming to work late, f*ck1ng work up, being lazy and general complacency. Small business is a team sport...if the sport is soccer and the team is such that they always lose then it is better to get rid of the team and take up boxing. That way the ex-employer is free to fight whomever agrees to fight him and he takes full responsibility for the outcome.


And yet... Today I met a friend of mine for coffee like me see has problems and we share a support group. She spoke to me about the concern she had where she work. Her words "My boss isn't doing enough and the business will fail" She is a talented programmer and is teaching me the skill as we speak. Just saying all the nasty things you can say about the employee you can say the same about to the employer.

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## Blurock

> Her words "My boss isn't doing enough and the business will fail" She is a talented programmer and is teaching me the skill as we speak. Just saying all the nasty things you can say about the employee you can say the same about to the employer.





> Small business is a team sport...if the sport is soccer and the team is such that they always lose then it is better to get rid of the team and take up boxing. That way the ex-employer is free to fight whomever agrees to fight him and he takes full responsibility for the outcome.


Any successful business is run as a team. The captain (manager) cannot just sit on his arse and give orders. he has to set an example. The team members are equally responsible for keeping the business afloat. After all, it is their livelihood. You have all the right to challenge your supervisor or boss if you do not agree with his/her decisions, e.g. breaking safety regulations, abusing authority etc, but you have no right to criticize or sabotage the company while it is still paying your salary. That would put your own salary in jeopardy. If you do not like it, you have the right to take your skills elsewhere.

Successful people build each other up. They motivate, inspire and push each other. Unsuccessful people just hate, blame and complain.

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BusFact (19-Sep-15)

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## BusFact

To get a little philosophical on the matter, I have a problem with the employer/employee relationship full stop. It should either be a partnership or a customer/supplier relationship. Our current labour law complicates the employer/employee arrangement, but even if it didn't the whole concept still seems to lead to employers who treat staff as servants or employees who settle into a bog of complacency or even incompetence.

My personal opinion is that there should not be employers or employees. If someone requires their orders to be delivered they should hire a delivery service. If they require that delivery service to be on stand by for when they need it, they must pay. Its a supplier - customer relationship.

To expect a person to become a parent to their staff is unreasonable.
To expect a person to be indefinitely subservient to another is unreasonable.

Scrap it altogether I say, but then yes I am aware that first pigs will have to fly.

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Blurock (19-Sep-15)

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## Blurock

> To get a little philosophical on the matter, I have a problem with the employer/employee relationship full stop. It should either be a partnership or a customer/supplier relationship. Our current labour law complicates the employer/employee arrangement, but even if it didn't the whole concept still seems to lead to employers who treat staff as servants or employees who settle into a bog of complacency or even incompetence.
> 
> My personal opinion is that there should not be employers or employees. If someone requires their orders to be delivered they should hire a delivery service. If they require that delivery service to be on stand by for when they need it, they must pay. Its a supplier - customer relationship.
> 
> To expect a person to become a parent to their staff is unreasonable.
> To expect a person to be indefinitely subservient to another is unreasonable.
> 
> Scrap it altogether I say, but then yes I am aware that first pigs will have to fly.


That is where the team concept comes to its full. It is not easy and one should select your team carefully and on merit (not on entitlement because of your skin colour). Once every member of the team understand their function, responsibility and place in the team, things start getting a little easier. 

I dealt with a transport company years ago who gave their staff excellent training that made it clear how the system works. They had training interventions which entailed playing a very realistic business game. The staff member was given a virtual business which he had to run. He had to buy trucks, obtain finance and then have a budget to operate the business. He had to buy fuel, tyres and have the trucks serviced. He was given the option to spend money on insuring the trucks or running the risk of not insuring. The game included labour relations, strikes and the lot. He also had to obtain business by putting in a quote and then to complete the job on time. 

This game had an easy, entry level version, as well as as a more advanced version for more experienced employees. Everyone, from the lowest to the highest ranked employee had to complete the game as part of their internal training and points were scored on progress.

I have always had a dream of developing a similar business game that could be adapted to different business types, but never got that far.

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## adrianh

This is all good and well in theory but the reality is that the small business owner doesn't have all the answers, nor cash to put the perfect team together. And yes, all people have flaws, employers and employees alike. Most businesses try to make the most of available resources, be it money, staff, time, whatever. The fact of the matter is that just as an employer knows that he is not able to hire perfect staff the employee should know that he doesn't work for a perfect employer. Either party should have the right to fire one another should they be unhappy with the relationship. The problem in this country is that the labour law protect employees to such a degree that it is near impossible to get rig of people who do not meet expectations. Employees know that the law is on their side and that the employer has to go through a long and arduous process to get rid of them. Look, I have no problem with working with good people who pull their weight and understand their responsibilities but I do have a problem with the fact that the employer is forced to put up with a lot of nonsense for a long time. 

I think that the biggest problem in actual fact is not employers vs employees or lack of money, I think that the problem is lack of business systems and management skills. If businesses were set up in the first place with clearly thought out business systems and documented management systems were put in place from the outset then a lot of the issues would not exist. I deal with many small businesses on a daily basis and it is striking that none have them have even the most rudimentary systems in place. I am not just referring to accounting systems but rather to broader business systems. I believe that most businesses could be structurally blueprinted using lets say 100 blueprints. That blueprint could be provided as an off the shelf business superstructure having the specific details tweaked where needed.

Lets take 5 small furniture manufacturing companies. They are 99% the same in all fundamental business principles and structure and as such could use the same basic business blueprint. That blueprint should cover every aspect of the business. I think that a bright CA with the help of a good legal person and an IT person could put a system like that together that is mostly web based. Lets say a small business buys into it, they have to use the IT system (financial management \ inventory management....and and and) they are given the appropriate local IT system, manuals, books etc and also access to good business minds. Imagine a little company running into a cashflow problem..the CA could look at the books online, figure out what is going wrong based on the information and advise him accordingly. I would be more that happy to spend a couple of hundred rand a month knowing that the web based system not only handles the bookkeeping but also the staff leave, irp5's, guides me to taking action against bad employess or whatever. The bottom line is that 90% of small businesses spend 80% of their time running after cash because they simply don't have the skills nor access to the knowhow to actually run a proper business. BTW: they spend the other 20% of the time stressing about everything because they don't actually know what they should know about business.

Maybe my rant was a bit off topic but I have come to realize that a business is primarily centred around information management. If the information management is correct then the specifics of the business falls into place fairly easily. When I speak of information I am not just referring to the stuff in PASTEL, I am referring to every single bit of information floating around in a company. 

If I could start my silly little business over again I would start by learning proper financial management and find or developing a sound business management tool...then only, and only if the numbers make sense and the business looks viable on paper would I even consider getting into it.

Entrepreneurship does not mean that one should f*k voort because if you try hard enough you will succeed. It means that you should develop the skills to orchestrate a business from cradle to handing over the keys to a the company that buys you out for a huge profit. We make the mistake of become self employed rather than creators of fully functional stand alone entities that could be sold for profit.

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## BusFact

I can't fault you on your main point, which seems to be that having good management systems in place makes for a much better business. 

I also like your point on the financial, management, IT and whatever else infrastructure being available online. Most companies have a heck of a lot in common when it comes to the admin and I think it drowns a lot of smaller startups. Having a specialist file 100 EMP201s for 100 businesses is a much quicker process that 100 novices each trying to figure out how to file their own return. Its a tough sale though, because small businesses try and keep costs low and one inefficient way of doing this is to try and do everything yourself.

Not sure I agree with the learning proper stuff before you start - unless its something we can get taught in high schools. I reckon developing systems and learning financial management before one has even made your first sale, is just adding another barrier to entry. Its different if you are going to be starting up with a couple mil of seed capital, but for most people boot strapping their venture .... nah just jump in and learn as you go.

One further minor issue is you saying that becoming self employed is a mistake - I on the other hand reckon everyone should be self employed. Stuff this employer-employee nonsense. I suspect though that you meant that the mistake is entrepreneurs creating a job for themselves. One which requires their skills and expertise in order for it to run. Rather they should be creating self sufficient entities.

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## tec0

Funny enough, a few months ago i got involved in something similar. 
Problems;
> No money in company 
> No structure or planning
> No proper monitoring of expenses and payment. 

Result company was on the verge of collapse. 

First few steps i took was as follow: 

> Created a Quotation form   
> Created a Order form 
> Created a Job card system 
> Implemented a deposit system 
> Implemented a stock form 
> Implemented final payment or COD "cash on delivery"

In detail the Quotation system was designed on product cost, time taken to make product and other cost THEN only the markup and based on the amount and cost before markup a deposit was calculated to cover ALL cost... This ensured that there was always money for the job at hand. 

The Job card  and Order form take effect once the Quotation is accepted and deposit is paid in full. That way the supplier could be contacted and the materials could be collected KNOWING all is paid in full and NO money was owed. When Stock is delivered  the stock form is completed and a stock take is done to insure everything was in order AND that the job can continue without any nasty worries about "do we have enough" 

Once the job is completed the customer is contacted "ahead of time" so that shipment and final payment can take effect. Once the money is paid in full we deliver ON TIME every time without any excuse or anything like that. 

Right now this business is doing 100% better then what it was. There is money in the bank STOCK taking is a joy and employees know how much time they have that everything they need is provided for "to do the job" and they have more time to do proper quality control. 

Other stuff i must mention is a log book, "when stock goes in and out" all of it was done using good old Excel... and because of the deposit system and COD system we had ZERO losses for 2015... Also money don't get wasted.

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## Blurock

I agree with adrian that good systems are essential in businesses. Once a system is in place, everyone should understand how the system works. That saves the manager a lot of "nuisance" time like authorising someone to go to the toilet. If you know the rules and understand the system, you can work alone and not have to wait for the manager's instruction all the time.

Unfortunately most South African workers have been spoilt by useless unions who are more interested in their own politics and power plays than the worker or the economy. As an example, a worker will refuse to clean a workshop because the union tells him "it is not his job". Our workers have little work ethics and have one of the lowest productivity figures in the developed world.

Compared to the Japanese and the Germans, we do not even feature. That is why it took less than 20 years to rebuild Hiroshima and Germany after the 2nd World War. In 20 years of "democracy" we have not rebuilt the country, but have gone backward with higher unemployment and an economy teetering on the brink of junk status. The next downgrade is just another strike or power shed away...!!

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## Butch Hannan

Is not everyone a manager to a greater or lesser degree of his own little dirt heap within the firm? I have been in sales most of my life and I believe that the biggest motivating factor is the setting of specific targets. There must be an incentive reward for going over the set targets. Each and every person in the firm needs to be rewarded if the set target is exceeded. People who are target driven generally perform a lot better.

I have a great dislike for trade unions and, with government, I consider them to be big wankers. It would be a joyous day in South Africa if trade unions started negotiations with an offer of more productivity. Just imagine if the unions opened the negotiations with these words, " our workers are going to extract an extra 2000 tons of ore a day for you. What will you do for us?" Unfortunately the "modus operandi" for unions is "more pay for less work".

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adrianh (21-Sep-15)

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## wynn

I believe that we pay just enough to keep an employee and they do just enough to keep their job.

If we introduced a system of paying the employees a decent share of the profits as and when they occur, the group of them will ensure that greater profits occur more often and regularly.

Sure there will be problems setting this system up but once it starts working properly the entire staff will police each other to ensure efficiency, productivity and profit are maintained at the highest level, a slacker will be chased up or out and theft or shrinkage whether of stock, time, facilities or transport will be almost eliminated, even down to the 'tea girl' who will be hovering around a client offering tea or coffee.

As a business owner one would be better off taking say 50% of a greater profit than 100% of a much lesser amount and the bonus is you would probably personally do a lot less to achieve that.

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HR Solutions (21-Sep-15)

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## HR Solutions

> Is not everyone a manager to a greater or lesser degree of his own little dirt heap within the firm? I have been in sales most of my life and I believe that the biggest motivating factor is the setting of specific targets. There must be an incentive reward for going over the set targets. Each and every person in the firm needs to be rewarded if the set target is exceeded. People who are target driven generally perform a lot better.



Butch you are 100% correct.  I work with young people (ladies) and they are all target driven.  They are also people that enjoy instant gratification (I think this is the new generation way) .  Most of them can work without a manager, except obviously the new ones.  They know that their salary + commission is totally dependant on how they work.  Some of them have their desk totally under control that they can come in half an hour late and leave half an hour early.  They reap the rewards at the end of the month when they get good commission.  And as wynn says above, business owners should not be greedy - they should employ the correct staff, pay them better via profit share or commission structure and everybody benefits at the end of the day.

In the same aspect - those days of employees working for a company expecting a huge salary for basic minimal work is far between.  Only large corporates can afford this.

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## adrianh

The problem with target driving a department or even an individual is that they become so fixated on meeting "their" target that they start to serve only their own pockets. Salesmen steal one another's clients, departments screw one another for the numbers, etc. I agree that being target driven is a good thing but the targets should be company wide and everybody should benefit equally. The admin girl will never be in a position to make huge commission on sales yet the sale is dependent on her doing her job. 

BUSFACT - with regard to my own feelings towards me entering the business market - I really think that if I had learned all about systems and financial management that I would have done things differently. I'm not against being self employed or having a small business - to the contrary, I think that each and every person should do so... all that I am saying is given where I am now, I could have accomplished a hell of a lot more in the same time had I known then what I know now. Of course we all say that but I do think though that we don't always need to learn through our own mistakes, many people made mistakes before us and that we should be open to learning fro those mistakes (which of course I never was...and my youngest daughter unfortunately is the same...we have to learn by bumping our own heads - the problem with doing things this way is that you may just die in the process)

I think that a large part of the problem with entrepreneurs is that they are technicians and not business oriented. Being a technician means that I want to be able to do everything myself and I want to show everybody how to do everything. I love what I do and as such will do it for free just to be able to do what I love....this is a recipe for disaster. I eventually learned that my responsibility from a technical point of view is to enable my staff to do what is expected of them as efficiently as possible.

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Dave A (21-Sep-15)

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## HR Solutions

> The problem with target driving a department or even an individual is that they become so fixated on meeting "their" target that they start to serve only their own pockets. Salesmen steal one another's clients, departments screw one another for the numbers, etc. I agree that being target driven is a good thing but the targets should be company wide and everybody should benefit equally. The admin girl will never be in a position to make huge commission on sales yet the sale is dependent on her doing her job.


Yes this is true.  We all hope and strive to ensure that the targets do not affect anything.  We have tried to structure our targets/commissions that it benefits the company, colleagues and themselves - it forces them to work together, even between the two branches.  We spend a fortune on recruitment/data packages every month which is their tool to make it work.  They have to work together in some cases - teamwork is of the utmost importance.





> salesmen steal one another's clients,


In their case this cannot be done - with the package we have, once a consultant has obtained a client due to various stages - they are allocated this client on the data base. They cannot then just change it.  Its basically their client.

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## adrianh

My employees and I had a long chat and we are on track again.

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## Hannes Botha

@Wynn. It's a nice sentiment, but also the slackers notice soon enough, whether they personally perform or not, they get their share. Soon more people notice this and the dream fades. There is a reason why some people are not business owners, but rather employees....

Here is an example: A professor wanted to prove a political point that some systems of ruling a country doesn't work. So he resorted to giving everyone the average grade of the class. At first all was well because the slackers also got the average grade...however the top performers also got the average grade. Soon the slackers realized that they do not have to do anything and still get grade average, which mean they did even less. Also the top students realized that their hard work was benefiting only the slackers because even if they got excellent grades, the slackers' grades pulled averages down. Everybody ended up failing...

I found the only way to motivate is a performance driven bonus. Four quarterly performance appraisals based on KPA's and KPI's which the staff get at their induction. If changes are made to KPI's and KPA's you get the employee to sign off on what they will be appraised on for the next quarter. 

However in some sectors (as in my current motor industry sector) the option to do this was taken away by the unions by making a two weeks bonus mandatory, regardless of performance, which means....even the slackers gets a passing grade...

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## BusFact

I absolutely love that analogy of the professor and the class marks for the economics of income and reward.

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## vieome

> @Wynn. It's a nice sentiment, but also the slackers notice soon enough, whether they personally perform or not, they get their share. Soon more people notice this and the dream fades. There is a reason why some people are not business owners, but rather employees....
> 
> Here is an example: A professor wanted to prove a political point that some systems of ruling a country doesn't work. So he resorted to giving everyone the average grade of the class. At first all was well because the slackers also got the average grade...however the top performers also got the average grade. Soon the slackers realized that they do not have to do anything and still get grade average, which mean they did even less. Also the top students realized that their hard work was benefiting only the slackers because even if they got excellent grades, the slackers' grades pulled averages down. Everybody ended up failing...
> 
> I found the only way to motivate is a performance driven bonus. Four quarterly performance appraisals based on KPA's and KPI's which the staff get at their induction. If changes are made to KPI's and KPA's you get the employee to sign off on what they will be appraised on for the next quarter. 
> 
> However in some sectors (as in my current motor industry sector) the option to do this was taken away by the unions by making a two weeks bonus mandatory, regardless of performance, which means....even the slackers gets a passing grade...


I think what that proves is that bad employee management can cause bad employees, remember the students are only reacting to the Professor style of leading in each case. So the question is what could the professor of done to improve grades for all?

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## HR Solutions

> I think what that proves is that bad employee management can cause bad employees


That is SO true.  Very often when you deal with someone and pick up a bad attitude and it does not get any better as the conversation goes on - you just know that either the owner or his boss has got the same kak attitude.

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## tec0

Be careful who you send home be careful who you keep when it comes to employees... Not every person with a good CV has has Good intentions and not every person with a bad CV has bad intentions. Sometimes bad people get ahead in life and good people get burned.

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## HR Solutions

> Be careful who you send home be careful who you keep when it comes to employees... Not every person with a good CV has has Good intentions and not every person with a bad CV has bad intentions. Sometimes bad people get ahead in life and good people get burned.



Thats why there are ways to check people out from EVERY aspect - (qualifications, residence, ITC, Work experience, blacklists)

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## adrianh

Criminal record, ITC and blacklistings are grey areas though. A person may have a criminal record for driving at 180kmh during a legitimate emergency. He may be on ITC and blacklisted because his previous employer retrenched him and he has been unable to find work due to circumstance.

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## tec0

> Criminal record, ITC and blacklistings are grey areas though. A person may have a criminal record for driving at 180kmh during a legitimate emergency. He may be on ITC and blacklisted because his previous employer retrenched him and he has been unable to find work due to circumstance.


There are a lot of reasons why people end up with records not all of them legitimate this is true. But this doesn't matter in the end of the day, apart from screening processes, testing and background checks, there are also bylaws and a complected process to follow on the employers behalf to keep the system "fair" or "Free from favouritism" in the end most of us will have less then 1% chance in landing a good long term job. Hence why people are moving away to other countries, try to restart there lives. I cannot really blame them honestly who can. 

But in the end it is how the above information get used, what choices will be made and where that will leave an individual. 

0

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## HR Solutions

You said



> Be careful who you send home be careful who you keep when it comes to employees.


I said there are ways to check it out.
Then you come back with your answer, which is totally out of sequence with the original statement.

Therefore my answer is - there are no grey areas - as I said there are ways to check and double check on people

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## tec0

> Be careful who you send home be careful who you keep when it comes to employees... Not every person with a good CV has has Good intentions and not every person with a bad CV has bad intentions. Sometimes bad people get ahead in life and good people get burned.





> Thats why there are ways to check people out from EVERY aspect - (qualifications, residence, ITC, Work experience, blacklists)





> *Criminal record, ITC and blacklistings are grey areas though*. A person may have a criminal record for driving at 180kmh during a legitimate emergency. He may be on ITC and blacklisted because his previous employer retrenched him and he has been unable to find work due to circumstance.





> You said
> 
> 
> I said there are ways to check it out.
> Then you come back with your answer, which is totally out of sequence with the original statement.
> 
> Therefore my answer is - there are no grey areas - as I said there are ways to check and double check on people


I said nothing about gray arias... those where not my words.

I did say this, 




> *There are a lot of reasons why people end up with records not all of them legitimate this is true.* But this doesn't matter in the end of the day, *apart from* screening processes, testing and background checks, *there are also* bylaws and a *complected process to follow on the employers behalf* to keep the system "fair" or "Free from favouritism" in the end most of us will have less then 1% chance in landing a good long term job. Hence why people are moving away to other countries, try to restart there lives. I cannot really blame them honestly who can. 
> 
> But in the end it is how the above information get used, what choices will be made and where that will leave an individual. 
> 
> 0


I did not say anything about gray arias, my context above you will find i completely agree that there are a lot or reasons why people get records not all of them legitimate thus agreeing with both Adrian and yourself as both are equally true to the same degree. All that i wanted to add is that employers has a hard time keeping up with the many bylaws and other requirements and that the chances are for a minority individual to actually get the job after said process is very slim. I believe the equity [(law) a legal tradition dealing with fairness and ethics] is 9 to 1 and i stand to be corrected because it did change again if i am not mistaken.

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## Blurock

> I believe that we pay just enough to keep an employee and they do just enough to keep their job.
> 
> If we introduced a system of paying the employees a decent share of the profits as and when they occur, the group of them will ensure that greater profits occur more often and regularly.
> 
> Sure there will be problems setting this system up but once it starts working properly the entire staff will police each other to ensure efficiency, productivity and profit are maintained at the highest level, a slacker will be chased up or out and theft or shrinkage whether of stock, time, facilities or transport will be almost eliminated, even down to the 'tea girl' who will be hovering around a client offering tea or coffee.
> 
> As a business owner one would be better off taking say 50% of a greater profit than 100% of a much lesser amount and the bonus is you would probably personally do a lot less to achieve that.


I once assisted a client to set up a management buyout as he wished to gradually withdraw from the business and retire. The staff only had to pay for the assets and equipment to take over. As he had already made his money and the business would then be owned and managed by the staff, the owner and senior management agreed to an experiment whereby salaries would be linked to performance. It would mean that fixed costs would be reduced and salaries would become a variable cost.  

In essence all staff would be able to earn more (double) as long as they had orders. They could also increase income with higher productivity. Should they lose orders, their income would be reduced. In other words, earnings would be directly related to output or productivity. It was agreed that staff would vote on the idea before implementation. Everyone agreed to the scheme, except for three slackers. Two of which were fired within the next 3 - 4 months for stealing from their employer.

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## wynn

> I once assisted a client to set up a management buyout as he wished to gradually withdraw from the business and retire. The staff only had to pay for the assets and equipment to take over. As he had already made his money and the business would then be owned and managed by the staff, the owner and senior management agreed to an experiment whereby salaries would be linked to performance. It would mean that fixed costs would be reduced and salaries would become a variable cost.  
> 
> In essence all staff would be able to earn more (double) as long as they had orders. They could also increase income with higher productivity. Should they lose orders, their income would be reduced. In other words, earnings would be directly related to output or productivity. It was agreed that staff would vote on the idea before implementation. Everyone agreed to the scheme, except for three slackers. Two of which were fired within the next 3 - 4 months for stealing from their employer.



How did the business fare after the buy out?

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## HR Solutions

@ Blurock - fantastic idea profit sharing.  Its amazing how well it works in most instances.  They check little things - how long heaters are running, cutting down on coffee throughout the day etc etc etc - all to bring down expenses.  :Smile:

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## Blurock

> How did the business fare after the buy out?


The "Rainbow Plan" was not implemented as all agreed that there has to be 100% buy-in. Two of the three slackers who objected (one a foreman) were fired by the new management, due to theft. Business carried on as usual, but eventually had to close its doors as the management (workers) did not have the same entrepreneurial spirit and drive as the original owner.

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## wynn

> as the management (workers) did not have the same entrepreneurial spirit and drive as the original owner.


That's exactly why I asked!

I believe that profit share has to be an arrow in the entrepreneurs quiver, if you just give/sell a going concern to the management and staff it seldom has the required result, however MBO's have definitely worked if run along the same old system, it takes a leap of faith for the new management to institute profit sharing.

Usually the system requires a drop in the fixed wages of the workers, say a 20% wages drop for a 20% share of the profits calculated on a factor that pays them the exact same wage as before if they only achieve the same turnover/profit ratio as before.

The drop in wages usually results in the slackers leaving almost immediately and the rest strive to beat the turnover/profit ratio from the start.

TIP!! never start a system like this during expected low turnover months such as December.

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## Marq

Nice input Guys.  :Cool:

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## Blurock

The rationale behind the "Rainbow plan" is that businesses cannot always sustain fixed costs that keep rising. In low season they are forced to put staff on short time or to even retrench. By making salaries a variable cost, there is an incentive for staff to earn more if they can give quality work that generates more sales of their services and products. Often employers are requested to let someone work overtime so that they can earn more money. If he/she was incentivised by manufacturing a quality product or providing a quality service in a given time, they could plan their own time to produce more and also earn more on a regular basis. 

Most jobs have a rate per hour. Electricians, engineers, technicians, IT, HR, doctors or any profession has a recommended or agreed rate. If more can be done in an hour, that person may be entitled to some reward for the extra effort. Even my wife applies this principle. Our domestic is paid for a full day, although she finishes her daily chores in half a day. She does a good job and no-one has to check on her or tell her what to do.

The second rationale is that all workers/employees are interdependent as each have a function and role to play in a business. This may be more prevalent in a manufacturing concern where one part of a job has to be completed before another can start. In construction, the foundations have to be dug and the slab done before the walls op up. Then follows the roofing, glazing and other items. This interdependency can be used to create self-motivating teams who can earn more if they are productive. They will then urge on the guys that has to supply them with components to finish their part of the job. By working towards a common goal (NB Goal) they can motivate each other and eliminate the slackers who will be exposed by their co-workers. Once they exceed the goals, there has to be a substantial bonus which would not have to cost the company more, as they would have paid overtime anyway, and with less productivity.

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## Dave A

So seeing as everyone is interdependent, does everyone get an equal share in the profit sharing scheme?
Or are some more equal than others?

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## tec0

> So seeing as everyone is interdependent, does everyone get an equal share in the profit sharing scheme?
> Or are some more equal than others?


Employees linked to what we/i do gets a good bonus every 3 months and it SHOWS, i cannot be happier with him and he puts in so much extra for that bonus it is frankly scary. He gets 60% on his pay and really business can handle it so why not... He is worth it, it shows in in his work and more importantly it shows in his attitude. Sure he made some mistakes in the beginning but now "we" as a group cannot complain.

He gets treated like i would have liked to be treated when i was at that stage. Respect, loyalty and clear proper communication

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## Blurock

> So seeing as everyone is interdependent, does everyone get an equal share in the profit sharing scheme?
> Or are some more equal than others?


All employees work on an hourly rate. Obviously the rate for an artisan for IT specialist cannot be the same as for a secretary or cleaner. Depending on achievement to target, the bonus or profit share may be multiples of the basic salary or hourly rate. In this instance, you measure output, not input.

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