# Social Category > South African Politics Forum >  The Great Crime Debate

## duncan drennan

If you haven't heard anything about the "issue" of crime in South Africa over the past week then I'd like to know which hole you've had your head in...

It seems that the death of David Rattray, the AU's peer review report, and Mbeki, Selebi, Mdladlana and Ngkula's comments have stirred up a lot of unrest in South Africa (other than people living in fear that is...)

I'm always asking myself why crime is so violent in SA - why do so many people get killed over cellphones/wallets/etc? I really don't understand it. I wonder if it is related to how much the perpetrator values their own life.

Alec Hogg of Moneyweb has a story from Davos where he speaks about the impact of organised crime in SA, namely wrt smuggling,




> ItÃ¢â¬â¢s clear, for starters, that South Africa is a key nexus in the global supply chain of a trillion dollar plus industry. SA's particular attraction to the world crime syndicates is its supplies of illicit precious stones, rare minerals and marijuana from the continental hinterland.


Key to all of this is the setup of efficient supply chains.




> Once the supply chain is in place, various Ã¢â¬ÅproductsÃ¢â¬Â can and are channeled through this distribution network, multiplying the profit. So although a supply chain might have been set up for illicit cigarettes, it can also be used for human trafficking or hard drugs.


I also didn't realise that pirating DVD's is more lucrative than selling cocaine.




> Particularly lucrative products for these criminal networks are illicit cigarettes (as half the cost of legal smokes is tax) and pirated DVD movies, where profit margins are massive. As one of the panellists pointed out, the profit on one kg of illegal DVDs is three times that of cocaine Ã¢â¬â and the punishment, should the pusher be arrested, incomparably light.


So a supply chain implies a few things,

Customers/demand - you/me/others are buying products (cigarettes, DVDs, drugs, etc.)Retailers - there is someone selling it, taking their cutDistributors - the smuggling part of thisManufacturers - some one is producing because there is a lucrative market

So there are a couple of options which are basically to break that chain somewhere. So here is something to think about before you buy/pirate/etc.




> Otherwise law abiding citizens are fuelling the supply chain every time they buy anything form pirated DVDs and tax-free cigarettes to cheap clothing. They donÃ¢â¬â¢t seem to think twice about where they come from and are clearly not making the connection between a global network of sin and its side effect of violent crime.


Another aspect is that there seems to be a high tolerance of the sales of certain illicit materials,




> Motorists are virtually mobbed at traffic lights by illegal DVD hawkers; East European sex workers are in abundance at Ã¢â¬Ålap dancingÃ¢â¬Â clubs; designer label knock-offs are openly sold by street traders; Ã¢â¬ÅcheapÃ¢â¬Â cigarettes can be bought in public areas; and itÃ¢â¬â¢s easier for a school kid to secure a joint of marijuana than a bottle of beer.


Where are the police in all of this? Can a "no broken windows" approach work?  How would that impact our economy?

Obviously a large part of the issue is corruption, which Vietnam seems to have taken quite seriously....




> As the Vietnamese prime minister told me earlier in the day, his country only started to win the war against crime after it introduced harsh penalties, including the death sentence, for corrupt officials. Supported by a system of promotions for public servants who identify those accepting bribes.


So there is my bunch of random thoughts largely based on Alec Hoggs article, "Criminal tentacles sucking SA" (all the quotes are from that article).

Let's talk about this a bit, we really need to resolve this and the way to win the war is a multipronged approach - from grassroots level up to policy makers, we all need to buy into a better way of life for ourselves.

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## Graeme

During the "struggle" the huddled masses were taught that "liberation before education" was what counted - quite OK to burn down a school.  Some learned how to rob banks to raise funds for the cause.  Others learned how to kill policemen (lost a nephew like that).  Only when that generation dies out will civilisation return to our beloved country.

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## Dave A

> If you haven't heard anything about the "issue" of crime in South Africa over the past week then I'd like to know which hole you've had your head in...


Guilty. In Cape Town on holiday. Before that slogging at work so that I could go on holiday. After that slogging at work paying penance for said holiday. So please forgive me.

The only headline that really raised any real conscious thought was one in the Cape Times saying that crime had halved in the last decade. I'll spare you the exact conscious thought, save that this was sufficient evidence to me that I should not read that paper if my hard-fought-for sense of equilibrium was to remain intact. After that, crime related matters that came to my attention were easily dealt with.

Like the sign advising hikers through Kirstenbosch not to take valuables with them as muggers were about...
The oh so tough yet skillfully disguised burglar guards on the windows of the residences I frequented...
The car guard/attendant in a two piece suit at the church for the Saturday wedding...
The car guard/attendant in the green liveried waistcoat at a shopping mall in Constantia (a particularly nice touch, I thought)...

Obviously the police force in Cape Town are all plain clothes policemen and women, because I don't recall seeing one.

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## Dave A

I see the David Rattray murder now seems to be a "robbery gone wrong." So why murder the guy if the intention was robbery?

The "crime is driven be poverty/need" theory gets blown out the window when it comes to murder. You don't need to kill people to put food on the table. For me there is a huge gap between breaking in and stealing clothes, food, valuables (not good) and callously shooting and re-shooting to make sure the victim is dead (really really bad). And yet for some it seems there is no real difference.

It is high time that the society sends a clear message that there is a *huge* difference between robbery and murder. We need to stop robbers from murdering - period.

Of course, while they're about it, it would be nice if the stopped robbers too...

ps. @President Thabo Mbeki - I think we have a problem.

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## Dave A

As I said earlier, I never read that story saying crime had halved in the last ten years. But this story seems to give the lie to that little piece:




> Crime statistics show that nearly 2,5-million people were victims of violent crime in the past three years and a recent study also showed a probability that more than 90% of people will fall victim to crime in South Africa.
> 
> "The statistics confirmed that the government has already lost the struggle against crime and it does not have the political will to accept that crime is a greater threat to our society," Van der Schyf said.
> 
> Last month, in an interview with the South African Broadcasting Corporation, President Thabo Mbeki said most South Africans would agree with him that it was a perception that crime was out of control. "There is crime, but this does not mean it is out of control," he said.
> 
> On Friday, Democratic Alliance leader Tony Leon said 98% of South Africans felt the president's attitude towards crime is mistaken. Writing in his weekly letter, Leon was referring to an e.tv poll that followed Mbeki's comments; the poll asked: "Is crime out of control in South Africa?", to which 98% of respondents answered "yes".
> 
> "With regard to the devastating spiral of violent crime, my tip for Mr Mbeki is that he frankly admit the urgency of the crisis," said Leon.
> ...


Also from the same story:



> The National Civil Safety and Security Action (Nacissa) has asked how government and the ruling party can promote a better life for all if crime is out of control.
> 
> "We are not against strategies that the government has put in place; we are here to assist," Nacissa chief executive Ockie van der Schyf said in Pretoria on Friday. He was addressing the launch of Nacissa, which aims to unite civil society against crime.
> 
> Last week the ruling African National Congress (ANC) urged South Africans to "not become spectators" in the fight against crime, calling for the full participation of the public.
> 
> ANC spokesperson Smuts Ngonyama said the ANC plans to launch a mass-mobilisation campaign to ensure community involvement in the building of safer and more stable communities. He said the campaign will focus on the "reinvigoration of community policing forums as effective and credible sites for coordination, monitoring and popular participation".
> full story from M&G here


The ANC party seems to see a different picture from "All is well" President Thabo Mbeki. Perhaps it's the bodyguards that make the difference.

In other news, FNB has cancelled their planned anti-crime campaign:



> First National Bank has cancelled its anti-crime initiative which was designed to encourage President Thabo Mbeki to make crime his priority, the early edition of the Sunday Times reported on Saturday evening.
> 
> According to the newspaper First Rand bank chief executive Paul Harris and his executive team pulled out of the R20-million campaign at 3.30pm on Friday. The print, radio and television adverts highlighting the campaigns were canned by management. 
> 
> Also on Friday, after hearing of the campaign, officials from the Presidency and the government's security cluster met with the bank's managment.
> 
> Harris refused to comment on who he had met with from the Presidency but when asked if he had discussed the campaign with the government on Friday he said: "I don't want to talk about who we spoke to other than to say it was a broad range of stakeholders -- all people that we felt could in some way be impacted on this."
> 
> Government spokesperson Themba Maseko said the campaign was a form of incitement against Mbeki.
> ...


What a bonus - they get the publicity boost and don't need to spend the money.

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## Dave A

I see in the Sunday Times report, FNB has already incurred the cost.

The pamhlet text intended for distribution can be read here, although who knows for how long.

Quite punchy in parts.

Interesting twist - business against crime groups accusing FNB of being opportunistic.

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## duncan drennan

I think Stephan Francis and Rico have finally figured it out. Check out what they think of Thabo's comments.

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## duncan drennan

On a more serious note, the M&G online ran an article, "Thabo Mbeki's new age of denial?" on Friday last week. I think Aubrey Matshiqi hit the nail on the head with this comment,




> Ã¢â¬ÅWhat the president is unaware of is steady convergence of opinion on crime, particularly since the Jeppestown shootings last year. Crime is becoming increasingly deracialised as more people become angry over its effects,Ã¢â¬Â said Matshiqi. Ã¢â¬ÅIt seems to me the president feels that the perceptions of increasing crime are incorrect as viewed against the information he has. But that is significant only for debate.
> 
> Ã¢â¬ÅThe reality is that the levels of crime in this country are unacceptably high. That is what the president should be focusing on; giving leadership instead of winning narrow points.Ã¢â¬Â


It seems that Thabo wants to argue the finer details of the issue, rather than look at the sweeping implications. It is great that crime has fallen (which looks great statistically), but if you look at the absolute levels, it is still not acceptable (see this Zapiro).




> Mbeki is doing a fine impersonation of Queen Elizabeth (as played by Helen Mirren in the movie, The Queen). He is sticking to the technical detail of the fight against crime and refusing to recognise the fear gripping his nation. This is similar to the way in which the queen completely misjudged the mood of her people after the death of Princess Diana.


I do feel that Mbeki is not in touch with what people are saying and feeling. No about of chit-chat will change that. People actually need to start feeling safe before the rhetoric will have any impact.

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## Dave A

I'd have a lot more faith in statements that crime stats have improved if we did not have these selective releases. If the stats will show that our perception of crime levels is not justified - just release *all* the stats.

This embargo on crime stats just seems to indicate that there is something to hide.

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## duncan drennan

So here is my question for the day: *why is crime so violent in South Africa?*

I don't really buy into what Graeme is saying. I think the population that commits crime is a small percentage of the general population (I could be wrong). If everyone had that mindset we would have a much larger problem on our hands (country would have crumbled long ago). Also, it is pretty much a racial classification, and I'm pretty wary of those - too many broad generalisations.

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## duncan drennan

With regards to the pulled FNB campaign, see Alec Hoggs article on Moneyweb

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## duncan drennan

There is an article on MoneyWeb by JP Landman, "South Africans fear crime more than ever".

I'd say he is quite well balanced in his approach to talking about the crime issue.

So starting with two facts,




> The first point is that South Africans have never felt as vulnerable and fearful of crime as now. Two sources confirm it: victim surveys from the Institute for Security Studies (ISS) as well as research from the HSRC. Questions are asked like: are you more/less afraid at night; are you afraid to travel alone; do you travel at night and so on. The overwhelming response to these questions is that citizens are more fearful than previously. The conclusion is clear: citizens' perceptions of crime are that it has deteriorated - matters got worse.
> 
> The second empirical fact is that several categories of crime have declined. A critic of the government and certainly no friend of the Mbeki administration, The SA Institute for Race Relations (SAIRR), reported that eight of 12 crime categories have declined over the period 1994/5 to 2005/6. This is confirmed by victim surveys. In victim surveys official stats are ignored and a sample of the population is asked if they experienced crime, what types of crime, how often and so on. These victim surveys confirm the official stats the SAIRR used.


There are some other interesting points on who crime affects, and how many perpetrators are linked to their victims (friends/family) - read the article for the details of those.

I think I found this the most interesting,




> If the age group 15 and 29 in a society is more than 30% of the total population, violence follows (Caldwell, Fin Times, January 5 2007). There are 67 countries in the world with such "youth bulges" now - and *60 of them are undergoing some kind of serious killing, civil war, insurgency and so on.* According to the latest Actuarial Society of SA demographic projections (released late in December), *precisely 30% of the SA's population are now in the age cohort 15 - 29.*

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## Dave A

I find the comment on "social capital" the most relevant - and probably the source of our unease as a society. I suspect we can sense this lack in society.



> In 81% of murder cases the murderer knew the victim. In other words only in 19% of murders was the victim unknown to the murder. In the case of rape the numbers are 76% v 24%; and serious assault 89% v 11%. These come from an analysis of 2005/6 crime stats. Is this the normal way citizens treat one another? 
> 
> The same lack of societal values is indicated by an opinion poll in the Sunday Times that 1/3 of all South Africans experience road rage. Nice, tolerant way of interacting with one another, would you not agree? 
> 
> There is something seriously wrong with our society's social capital.


I disagree the thought that government and police can't affect this social capital, though. 



> No degree of police efficiency can deal with this. No amount of shouting at politicians can cure this. The sooner we start focusing on social capital, the sooner we can deal with this problem.


Our elected political representatives and police need to be role models, and let's be honest - are they?

Some yes. And some, most definitely not!

I attended a session where the speaker was talking about the importance of how we are socialised. For example, grow up in a gang environment and the chances increase that you will live by gang values. Grow up in a law-abiding environment, and the chances increase that you will abide by and respect the law. Of course, we're talking a shift in the average - it's far from absolute and there are more than enough upstanding, perfectly law-abiding citizens who are products of the most horrific social environments. And less than scrupulous people who grew up in a more nurturing environment.

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## Dave A

Clearly, not all crime stats are going down.



> The crime most feared in South Africa is housebreaking, according to a survey recently conducted for the National Prosecuting Authority.
> 
> "The reason is the fear that the burglary will take place while the residents are on the premises," said Andre du Toit, acting director for public prosecutions in the Free State. He was addressing a symposium on serious and violent crime in Bloemfontein on Wednesday.
> 
> "One can avoid dangerous areas and prevent robbery, but you cannot stay away from your house."
> 
> Du Toit said it was disturbing that only 1% of reported housebreakings went to court. It was well known that the best deterrent to crime was that the perpetrator would be caught.
> 
> "The possibility is almost non-existent concerning housebreaking."
> ...


 :Confused:

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## Dave A

South Africa should not see itself as the "criminal skunk" of the world, because many other countries in transition had the same high crime prevalence.

Dap Louw, a psychology professor at the University of the Free State, said South Africans should also not develop a "learned helplessness syndrome" -- characterised by powerlessness and incapability in the fight against crime.

"A positive national self-image should be promoted to combat the cynicism, distrust and depression that dis-empower South Africans to actively participate in the fight of crime," Louw, also a renowned criminologist, said during a symposium in Bloemfontein on violent crimes on Wednesday.

"We can do something about it instead of just talking about it around braais."

Louw said the present crime situation in South Africa should be put in perspective because this was something the South African media "clearly did not specialise in".

"We lived in an abnormal society [apartheid]; now we live in a normal society in a country in transition."

Louw said other transitional countries who had experienced the same crime situation as South Africa were Russia, Estonia, Cambodia and Poland.

Louw said the media in other non-transitional countries like America, Wales, England and Australia had also reported on "concerns" of an increase of violent crime in 1996.

"These people are in the same boat as you and me," Louw said, himself also a crime victim, having being stabbed twice in the back.

Looking at the causes of crime, Louw said South Africans should not look further than themselves and must stop pointing fingers at others.

Louw quoted 19th century French criminologist Jean Lacassagne, who said: "Every society gets the number of criminals it deserves."

Referring to the environmental causes of crime, Louw said that in South Africa he would add to this quote the words "the kind of criminals it deserves" if one looked at the state of the country's children.

"Approximately 40% of our children live in poverty, about 100 000 children are projected to die from Aids in the next ten years, two million [will be] orphaned and 30% of the reported cases of suicidal behaviour involve children."

At least 1 000 children were murdered every year, 20 000 were raped each year [40% of all rape cases], while millions were emotionally and physically abused and neglected by parents and other adults.

"Today's children are not only tomorrow's adults, they are also tomorrow's criminals."

Louw was of the opinion that alcohol's role in crime and accidents was under-reported in the country, although 60% of all crime was already attributed to alcohol.

Poverty alleviation and social upliftment should form part of any crime-prevention strategy. Other factors include research, the targeting of less serious offences "creating a zero-tolerance effect", the involvement of communities and the empowering victims.

Although violent crime was regarded as South Africa's foremost threat, scientific data was scarce, Louw said.

Also speaking at the symposium was Human Rights Commissioner Leon Wessels, who said the crime situation had caused the number of initial supporters for the abolishing of the death penalty to shrink.

However, he said it was not likely that the death penalty would come back within the "life time" of the current government.

Wessels said there was enough room within the Constitution to tackle the crime situation.

Chairperson of the Civil Society Initiative, Roelf Meyer, agreed that crime with a "violent element" should be researched. Reasons for the "mindset" must be found.

Meyer said ways of improving the crime situation include involving the private sector in police training, proper and good management of policing at grassroots level and getting civil society involved.
from M&G here

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## duncan drennan

> Chairperson of the Civil Society Initiative, Roelf Meyer, agreed that crime with a "violent element" should be researched. Reasons for the "mindset" must be found.


This is the thing that eats me when I think about this whole topic, the big *why*, particularly with regards to violent crime. There must be something that we as a whole are doing (or have done) wrong, and there is this constant question of, "How can I change and act to improve this?" and "How do I help to accelerate the positive change?"

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## Debbiedle

My personal opinion on *why so violent?*

Desensitization!

Television, movies, news, newspapers, magazines, playgrounds, rugby fields, soccer fields, family violence, government, the household, the township, the corner shop.  We see it and hear it all the time.  VIOLENCE and total disrespect.  So do our kids. The more you hear and see it, the more "natural" it becomes!

Imagine being born to a 16 year old, jobless person, sitting around the fire and hearing the screams around you from day 1. People, family and friends enter and leave your life all the time, daily, due to crime, AIDS, violence, strike action, accidents and other reasons associated with every day life.

How can you *NOT* think this is the norm? With good parenting?  But what if you parents believed this to be the norm?

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## The DP Team

*Yes dave Rattery and that guy will be walking in 18 years who killed him go look ate my site under prison title only 18 years and find what happened*

If there is anybody out there who can and will help me in the fight against crime please do so.
Lets just stop the blabbering and do something toward the future of all of us and support me in helping raped and violated victims.
Have a look at www.death-penalty.co.za or mail me on info@death-penalty.co.za for help mail me at help@death-penalty.co.za
As,, please send me your comment to 36018 NB sms must start with "DP" 
All msg's will be posted on my site every 48 hour.
From there we will take the comments and work with it in public so that everybody can give us their oppinion and we will find a way to live and work together. We did not ask to be here we are here so lets make the best of it and work together. It will make life easier for everybody.
The Team at DP South Africa...       :Fence:

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## Graeme

The hijacking of one of DaveÃ¢â¬â¢s work crews, whilst evincing feelings of outrage,  lead on reflection to having us wondering why violent crime has gotten such a hold in SA.  

The apologists will say that it is because there is no work, therefore people resort to crime.  Others will counter that there was work in rural areas but it was hard going and many found it easier to drift into the cities, build a shack and see what was to be found there.  Others will say that they were driven out of tribal areas because there was no longer room for them there.  And labour legislation that makes it almost impossible to discipline or fire workers means that hiring has come to a screeching halt.

Whatever - they are here now, they cannot find work, and they wonÃ¢â¬â¢t be sent back to the places they came from.

Israel was faced with a similar problem (but without the crime) when it was founded - refugees from a shattered Europe migrated by the hundreds of thousands to the new State of Israel and having got there, housing and work had to be found for huge numbers of them.  Israel met this challenge by establishing the Kibbutz system, which provided both work, housing (and except for a tiny minority of frontier Kibbutzes, a good place to bring up children) for countless thousands of people, both singles and family units.  And much of the system soon turned a nice profit as well, which was theirs to keep and was and is used for improvements;  the answer to that lies in the kibbutznicksÃ¢â¬â¢  own hands.

Could not, should not, this system be tried here?  Given the political will, these places should not be too difficult to establish - we have the land, we certainly have the money;  the cost of a couple of modern fighter aircraft that no one here has the skills to fly would pay for the establishment of dozens of them.  And if there are those who are not prepared to roll up their sleeves and work in the Kibbutz system but prefer instead to remain in the Cities to live a life of shack dwelling indolence, disease, begging, welfare support and crime, then they should be dealt with harshly - the no-work excuse falls away.

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## Dave A

It seems the tide is far from turning. The latest crime stats have got the opposition parties up in arms.



> The latest crime statistics released on Tuesday prove crime is out of control despite government assurances to the contrary, opposition parties said.
> 
> "We are alarmed at the increase in murder [2,4%], the 118% increase in bank robberies, 52,5% increase in robberies at business premises, the 21,9% increase in cash-in-transit heists and the sharp increase in robberies at residential premises [25,4%]," Inkatha Freedom Party (IFP) spokesperson Velaphi Ndlovu said in a statement.
> 
> "It once again proves without doubt that crime is out of control in South Africa and that the levels of crime remain alarmingly high, despite empty government promises," he said.
> 
> The IFP believed it again highlighted the need for increased visible policing at banks, business premises, shopping malls and within residential areas.
> 
> Dianne Kohler-Barnard of the Democratic Alliance (DA) said the figures made a mockery of Safety and Security Minister Charles Nqakula's assurances to foreign business that the crime rate was under control.
> ...

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## Graeme

An interesting article by Stephen Mulholland in this week's FINWEEK:  It would seem that the trustees of the estate of the late Brett Kebble are trying to extract from the ANC and various of its manifestations R24 million of OPM (other people's money) that Kebble gave them.  A legal argument has developed over the notion of "dispositions without value"; the trustees claiming that the ANC was the recipient of OPM that was stolen and that it and its various branches and individuals received those funds without providing any value for them.  Thus, demands the trustees, the courts must order the ANC to return the funds to the Kebble estate.

In what Business Day described as a "remarkable admission" the ANC has argued in court that Kebble did, in fact, receive value for his money.  In doing that one assumes, as a layman, that the ANC acknowledges the principle of "disposition without value".  In other words, the ANC agrees that if someone gives you something that he has stolen and receives nothing in return from you, then the money goes back to the to the party from whom it was stolen.  Sounds logical and fair.  Having done so it's incumbent, clearly, on the ANC to describe the value that it alleges Kebble received.

So what did Kebble receive for the R24 million?  Mendi Msimang, treasurer-general of the ANC offers:  "He (Kebble) had an office in Melrose Arch, where he worked surrounded by the singing of birds and tranquillity of the northern suburbs (and) he owned approximately five properties in Bishops court (in Cape Town)".  Kebble enjoyed his success, avers Msimang, because of the "gallant effort and contribution of the ANC" in providing a political climate in which those such as Kebble might prosper.

This Msimang is the husband of Manto Tshabalala-Msimang, our Health Minister and garlic and beetroot protagonist.

Mulholland wishes the trustees good luck in ever seeing that loot again.

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## duncan drennan

> So what did Kebble receive for the R24 million?  Mendi Msimang, treasurer-general of the ANC offers:  “He (Kebble) had an office in Melrose Arch, where he worked surrounded by the singing of birds and tranquillity of the northern suburbs (and) he owned approximately five properties in Bishops court (in Cape Town)”.  Kebble enjoyed his success, avers Msimang, because of the “gallant effort and contribution of the ANC” in providing a political climate in which those such as Kebble might prosper.


 :Rofl:  That should come with a coffee warning  :Big Grin: 

(not that I'm saying they don't strive to do this, but man, you gotta love that response!)

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## Chatmaster

I resigned out of the SAPS back in 1994 and one of the main issues I had back then was the lack of proper leadership that was moving in on the mid senior levels. They were starting to make changes that we currently see the result of. One of the biggest changes that made me extremely unhappy back then was the appointment of graduates from outside the SAPS into top positions within the SAPS. 

This changed alot of the discipline and pride within the SAPS. I remember whilst being an instructor at Maleoskop, I had one of the founding members of Task Force as a commander and a Pshycologist as a 2 IC. 2 years later the 2 IC was the General in charge of national training and there was huge changes made to the foundation of the SAPS. Sad to say, but then '93-94 everything changed to worse already. That same mentality is still applying, where sivilians are in charge of the safety and security of our country. 

Closing statement:
There is more discipline in our private security than in our SAPS atm.

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## Dave A

Not everyone is happy with the improved numbers on reported rapes.




> The 5 percent decline in the number of rapes and indecent assaults that was reported to police over the past year is no cause to celebrate.
> 
> Instead, the dip should trigger alarm bells, according to experts in the field who this week warned that more and more reports were coming in about rape complainants being turned away by police keen to see statistics dip.
> 
> Most organisations active in the field say the rape statistics contained in the police report on crime between April 2006 and March 2007 have little meaning; these crimes are not ones that police alone can prevent; and police performance in tackling sexual offences should be measured by arrests and convictions, not by the incidents of crime reported.
> full story from IOL here


Of course, there was also the police restructure last year that did away with the specialised units. Could this also be a factor?

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## Dave A

A return to old ways?



> Three men accused of rape were beaten and hacked to death by an angry crowd in KwaMashu recently. 
> 
> A passer-by noticed a crowd and stopped to see what had happened. He caught a glimpse of the three men lying on the ground, being kicked around "like soccer balls". 
> 
> He recorded what was happening on his cellphone video. 
> 
> The crowd continued to beat the men, and eventually severed their heads and limbs with bush knives.
> 
> As the dismembered bodies lay in a pool of blood, the crowd dispersed as if nothing had happened.
> ...

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## duncan drennan

I think mob justice is just about the worst thing that can occur. It breaks down the entire justice system. No more trial, just a witch hunt, regardless of your situation. The worst form is alluded to in the article - charismatic criminals using it against their witnesses. There is no reason at action in a mob.

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## Dave A

This story is really close to home for me.



> Fearful and frustrated KwaZulu-Natal businessmen in Red Hill and Greenwood Park believe they are under siege from criminals after a series of robberies.
> 
> They have resorted to closing early to avoid becoming victims. The businessmen say police have not informed them of progress in investigations.
> 
> Service stations in the area no longer offer 24-hour service.
> 
> North Coast Service Station owner Rajesh Tularam said: "We close at 10pm every day, and the service station down the road closes at 11pm."
> 
> Another businessman, who asked not to be named, has decided to sell his business and leave the country. "My business has been robbed four times in the past nine months. I provided surveillance footage of all the robberies to police, but I have heard nothing from them since then. In the last incident they shot at me. After that I decided to sell the shop and go to England. I can't take it anymore."
> full story from IOL here


How do we break this vicious circle?

Crime causes people to reduce service provision or leave. Less investment and employment. Less money. More crime.

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## I Robot

Minister for Justice and Constitutional Development,      Brigitte Mabandla, on the Second Reading Debate of the   Regulation of Interception of Communication and Provision of    Communication-related Information Amendment Bill, National                             Assembly   29 August 2007   

Madam Speaker
Honourable members 

I think it may be appropriate to introduce this debate by making a few basic points which we tend to overlook when dealing with such a technical subject as the one before the House and which we are to decide on shortly. 

The Act, being amended by the Bill was put on the Statute Book as a measure to combat serious crime. It regulates, very carefully, the manner in which private communications of persons may be intercepted and monitored. It does so in a way which does not offend the Constitution in any manner. The infringement of a person's right to privacy, which this Act permits, in very limited and circumscribed conditions, is justified on the grounds, among others, that the interception and monitoring of communications is necessary in order to detect, prevent and investigate serious crimes. 

In short, it allows for interception only after a designated judge has authorised such interception at the request of any of the law enforcement agencies on an individual basis. 

The Act envisages the "tapping" of phone calls, that is, landline phone calls, as well as cellular phone calls. The nature of the Act is therefore understandably comprehensive, detailed and technical in the extreme. One cannot imagine it being otherwise. 

The Bill before us relates only to the interception of cellular phone calls. It was promoted at the instigation of the three mobile cellular operators jointly, that is Vodacom, MTN and Cell C. These service providers approached government when the implementation of the principal Act was receiving attention. They requested government not to implement sections 40 and 62(6) of the Act. These sections require persons who sell SIM cards and cell phones to record and store certain information of their clients, as well as the particulars of the SIM cards and the cell phones themselves. 

These provisions, as they read at present, call for a paper-based registration process, section 40 dealing with the registration of clients after the commencement of that section and section 62(6) dealing with the registration of persons who are clients at the time this provision is implemented. The service providers proposed that this paper-based process be replaced by an electronic solution. That, in essence, is what the Bill is about. It provides for the electronic capturing of certain information to ensure that the principal Act is fully effective and to ensure the achievement of its objects. 

I know that the Bill has been the subject of lengthy deliberations in and
outside of Parliament. It has been adapted by the Committee in numerous respects. I do not intend to deal with all aspects of the Bill, but would rather make a few general observations. 

Since the Bill is aimed mainly at the registration and verification of certain particulars of owners of cellular phones and SIM cards, for instance, addresses and identity, failing which such persons will not be able to gain access to cellular phone services, some of the proposed new definitions in clause 1 indicate the Portfolio Committee's endeavours to ensure that as many persons as possible will be in a position to comply with the registration requirements, particularly persons who live in outlying areas who rely heavily on cellular phone services for access to numerous different basic services, for instance to obtain information about pension pay-outs and cellular phone banking. It is clear to me that every effort has been made to ensure that the distribution and availability of cell phone services are not compromised in any manner. 

I am aware that there are still a number of aspects in the Bill in respect of which the service providers have reservations. The requirement whether to register the handset number (the IMEI number) or not, the implications the Bill will have on visitors to the country who wish to "roam" on our networks and the timeframes within which the registration of existing cellphone clients must be finalised, are some of the issues that have been raised by the service providers. We are now halfway through the Parliamentary process. The Bill still needs to be considered by the National Council of Provinces. I am therefore reluctant to go into the merits of these issues. I would rather let the Parliamentary process run its course. 

I must, however, make my view known, namely that there can be no room for any gaps in this legislation. As I see it, the information specified in the Bill that is required to be captured is essential, not only for investigation purposes, but also as evidence in our courts. My sense is that the further deliberations on the Bill must be more on how to achieve what is already in the Bill rather than on what should or should not be in the Bill. 

My plea to all stakeholders today is to facilitate the expeditious enactment of this Bill. We need to use all measures at our disposal to fight crime and every day that this Bill is delayed, is an extra day for criminals to use to their advantage in the planning and execution of crimes. On this note, I need to express the hope that the service providers have, in the run-up to the enactment of this Bill, used the time fruitfully in gearing themselves for what is likely to be required of them when the Bill is in place. Their proactive endeavours in this regard should enable them to finalise the registration process in respect of their existing clients far quicker than the 12 month period provided for in the Bill. As I have already said, we simply cannot allow for any further unnecessary delays. 

I wish to express my appreciation to Ms Fatima Chohan and her Portfolio Committee members for their inputs and for their unanimous support of the Bill. It is clear they have spared no effort in trying to ensure that the final product does not detract from the objectives of the principal Act on the one hand, with as little disruption as possible to the service providers and the users of mobile cellular services, on the other.


More...

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## duncan drennan

Today's Fact-a-Day,




> The number of South African adults who were victims of non-violent crime showed a 20% increase from 2006. A similar growth was recorded for violent crime. (AMPS 2006, 2007RA)

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## Loman

Pirated DVD's in Mozambique cost about R35 - R90 depending on whether you look like a tourist or not. 
I've seen some of them that are exactly like the original, covers printed on glossy paper, all of it sealed in plastic exactly like the real thing. Only if you open it up and remove the disc you might notice a difference, if you know what to look for.

That makes me wonder how many people are there that won't buy pirated dvd's but did buy them not knowing they weren't original.

A few years ago a dead giveaway that a cd, dvd or game is pirated is the printing on the disc was of poor quality, often faded. These days, its not that easy anymore, and if i was a gambler I'd bet its going to get harder still.

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## Dave A

Sort of related. SARS is cracking down on illegal imports.



> South African Revenue Service (Sars) officials confiscated goods worth thousands of rands from 20 shops in Cape Town's China city during a raid for illegally imported goods, spokesperson Thami Hlobo said.
> 
> "Some 47 shops at China city in Ottery were inspected and officials initially detained goods on site from 27 shops because of failure of shop-owners to provide relevant documents. After giving shop owners time to go get the necessary documents seven shops were re-opened," said Hlobo.
> 
> He said their intention was to try and clamp down on illegal imports and create a space for local manufacturers.
> 
> "These illegal imports have a negative impact on the local industry. We have given 20 owners goods without proper documents 14 days to show us the documents or forfeit their goods."
> full story from IOL here

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## Dave A

This story shows that CCTV certainly helps.



> Thanks to CCTV cameras in Pretoria, which recorded every sneaky move of a robber attacking a man in Sunnyside, a man was on Tuesday sentenced to ten years in jail for cellphone robbery.
> 
> Pretoria Regional Court magistrate Kallie Bosch found Mathews Maseko, 30, of Mabopane guilty of robbery with aggravating circumstances.
> full story from IOL here

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## Debbiedle

YEBO YES!!!!! Go gett'em!!

 :Fence:

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## Dave A

> A KwaZulu-Natal police whistleblower, who was suspended without pay because, he said, he exposed fraudulent crime statistics, has had his salary reinstated. 
> 
> Constable Craig Josiah approached the KwaZulu-Natal High Court in Pietermaritzburg last month to set aside his suspension. He claimed he had been victimised and subjected to trumped-up charges after he exposed "fraudulent" activities in the capturing of crime statistics.
> 
> Josiah's affidavit to the court said his problems began when Badul ordered detectives to proceed with investigating only matters "where suspects were immediately available or easily ascertainable".
> 
> "We were specifically instructed that in all other matters the docket was to be kept aside in a separate room," Josiah told the court. "It was clear that the purpose of this 'new arrangement' was to ensure that criminal complaints that were unlikely to be successfully investigated and subsequently prosecuted would conveniently be left out of the reporting system, thereby falsely reducing the crime statistics for Mountain Rise Police Station."
> 
> He said that the "new arrangement" was "startling" to station members as they were of the view that it "constituted fraud".
> ...


So, more effective policing or bad counting?

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## tec0

In all accounts violent crime is basically a gorilla tactic that is as old as war. Who will dare deny a criminal anything knowing that they will rape and murder you simply because they have the power to do so? 

I wish to say it again âthey have the power to do soâ. It is true that our country is soft on criminals. Government cannot control crime nor can we facilitate rehabilitation. Crime is the product of both poverty and more importantly opportunity.

South Africa is now the number one destination for all criminals as shown in the Media. Criminals can do whatever they please because our law-enforcement entities are underfunded, untrained, and corruptible. 

The above mentioned will facilitate any crime no matter its nature or severity thus we are becoming the nation of Victims. Criminals will openly attack children and the elderly not to mention women and even men. Criminals are fearless and because of our weak state of affairs they have the right to be. 

Still hope as of now is not lost. If we adopt an aggressive single minded approach to crimes and violent crimes and implement systems such as proper prisons and harsh penalties like the death penalty things might change for us as a nation. 

Now the argument is that we do not have the right to take life. Well if this is true then why do criminals continue to kill innocent people? It is true that the death penalty is perhaps an attempt at playing god. Yet the argument remains that if rape, child abuse and murder become punishable by death and is indeed enforced with decisive unhindered force an example will be set and it will have an effect on crime. 

Yet if not our government then who can make this work? The dyeing public awaits an answer.

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## Chatmaster

Shall I say I am not surprised? Shall I also say I will not be surprised if this is the case nationally?

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## Marq

So - do we revisit that statistic that only 60% of violent crime is reported again.

Should it maybe read 40% of violent crime is not solvable and therefore the case dockets have been turfed into the do not record pile?

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## Yvonne

A recent sentencing of a convicted rapist: 

The judge ruled a light sentence -

"The perpetrator is an educated person and the victim was a grown woman" 

I am just too dumfounded to even attempt to make any further comments regarding the judges remarks, the judges ruling is going to be appealed, thank goodness!

The message is clear: 

Criminals are not paying for their crimes, even in the rare cases of the criminal being apprehended and the case actually going to trial.

I feel so helpless even writing this that my instinct is to just delete the message! as I know that it serves no purpose.

Yvonne

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## Dave A

> I feel so helpless even writing this that my instinct is to just delete the message! as I know that it serves no purpose.


Please take a moment to consider what my sig *really* means, Yvonne.

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## Dave A

New stats released:



> The number of murders committed in South Africa has continued to drop, but house robberies have increased by more than a quarter, according to Police Minister Nathi Mthethwa.
> 
> Releasing the police's crime statistics for the 2008/9 financial year, he also said police were concerned at a 41,5 percent hike in the number of business robberies, mostly targeting small businesses.
> full article and more stats from IOL here


I was discussing ways of reducing risk of hijacking with my staff. One of the recommendations - no signage on vehicles as company cars are targets.

Reading that stat about the increase in business robberies, it struck me  - Is there a view that robbing a business doesn't affect people?

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## Marq

> Is there a view that robbing a business doesn't affect people?


Ah ha...an attempt to flush out the criminals on this forum. Sorry don't know the answer. :Cool:

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## Chatmaster

Anyone watched the movie Jerusalema? It opens your eyes to why crime in SA is on a high. Although it is just a movie it clearly shows how poverty and the natural human instinct of survival is definitely driving crime to a large extend. Making things worse in SA is the fact that there is an expectation created by the ANC with every election that the poor will get things free. In terms of businesses it is no secret that a large number of small businesses are soft and easy targets. 

IMO every year crime will increase as a larger number of new generation criminals go into crime because their expectations aren't met. We have a problem that will not go away with more serious police action, instead crime will just evolve to adapt. We need an urgent change in society and morality to turn this around. 

I will not be surprised if these criminals think that businesses are insured and therefore not that much effected through crime.

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