# General Business Category > Technology Forum >  What Stops You from Using Linux?

## Norri

I don't sell Linux servers or anything like that, I'm just curious, what stops you from using Linux?

As a server, nothing should stop you as it performs way better than Windows.  But, on the desktop, what's stopping you?

I use Linux (Ubuntu Studio) for my business and soon for recording music.  It's wonderful.  It's prettier than Windows and far more stable.  But it doesn't run Pastel Invoicing (those bastards) so I still need to keep Windows around.

What's stopping you?

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## Dave A

> But it doesn't run Pastel Invoicing (those bastards) so I still need to keep Windows around.


Fear of that sort of thing  :Stupid: 

And inertia. I've got one oldish semi-retired machine I've set aside to give Linux a test drive. I just haven't got to it yet.

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## Karenwhe

Hi Norri,

How I wish you never asked this question... or anyone else  :Big Grin: .

We have been in open source for a long time (not me personally but our office, using it, doing project for this industry and what not). 

Worked with probably most known distributiuons even did project with the Shuttleworth foundation, toaster project, EU Computer Drivers License (ECDL if I remember correctly)...... ah, too much and too many to mention.

As far as distributions are concerned we probably had all of them installed at one point in time or another, tried them, did even documentation, tried to install hardware and it goes on and on and on.

So, bottom line. Now we have purchased more Windows based software licenses than in the last 10 years.

How come? It is complicated. We just had a bridge between two open source software stop working, forcing us to move to another software, constantly having to buy small stuff to make stuff work and on and on.

Now we work heavily in video production, turns out, Linux can do, no doubt but most professional software that is really worth it and makes life easier is on Windows and better yet Mac. Which we will be moving to with at least one station.

Good things about Linux plenty, heck been there, got the t-shirt (actually have many Linux t-shirts), but at the end of the day you can't do with Linux as a complete solution for the office yet. On the server side a different story all together. 

If you want to make money and efficiency is of high importance paying a few hundred and even thousand dollars to create double than that rather than site and and wait for a software to mess you up, it is cheaper at the end of the day than Linux in the long term. And we have been using Linux systems and software to the max. In the last almost 10 years most of our usage has been Linux.

I do say this after experience, and I can't believe it is me saying it either, but I have just had it. I also had it with the religious arrogance of Linux supporters and just refuse to understand that making money is essential for a business to survive and yes it is "kosher" to make money in the world and not volunteer all your time to free coding.

Still use open source software EXTENSIVELY still using distributions (Kunbuntu) but most of the stuff in the office is now running again on windows. Even on our "geek" machine, (on balanced mode = "dual boot") hope they never read this post  :Big Grin: .

Oh yeah and one more thing if you also want to trade along the way (I mean the stock market) the good software runs on windows only.

And yes, we used to much Linux I used to have my kids on dual boot at one point to find out most games and stuff they use is windows only and wiped out the dual boot. How much can you fight or surf against the wind/wave?

Just not worth the money. If you can use Linux without problems then good stuff, if you use windows stuff, then good stuff also.

As long as your business is efficient and moves up and making money (rather than struggling with unnecessary crap) all good no matter what you use.

But using Linux just because it is free well........ been there, done that = bad idea.

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Ann Williams (26-Aug-08)

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## Debbiedle

> But using Linux just because it is free well........ been there, done that = bad idea.


Sort of applies to everything doesn't it Karen?

We too run a mixture, all servers on Linux as they are simply more stable.  Me as a user? Was it Dave that mentioned inertia?  Also live in a techno arrogant household..... and someone must keep these guys in the real world!  But more specifically because this started about 6 years ago and at that stage the learning curve for my flat brain was just too much as Linux was not as user friendly as windows!

What I do support whole heartedly is the drive for our schools to start teaching on Linux software. It starts putting the net in reach of the poor man who can piece together a machine from scrap parts and still have a reasonable speed when surfing and working.

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## Karenwhe

> Sort of applies to everything doesn't it Karen?


Not really. Taking into consideration that most distributions come with so much free software it has a bigger tendency than other things in life. 

When you get a book (assuming you could without buying), they don't give you 100 more for free just for fun. In Linux that is more or less the way. Get a distribution then it comes with 100 software. I think Suse before it was taken over by Novel if I remember correctly came with some hundreds of free software.

So, you say great, no need to buy other stuff. And for years you try to make stuff work.

You could take the book example further and ask yourself, why would I buy a new book when I got 100 to read for free? Problem being that those 100 books do not have the content that you are looking for, but you think: maybe if I read all of them, I will find what I am looking for. A couple of years down the road, you did not find in those 100 books what you are looking for, then you go to buy a book and find the right one in 5 minutes and get the content you need to solve a problem in another 2 hours. How is that for efficiency. But you had to buy this one, it didn't come for free.

Now to be efficient and build a business or help your business grow by the process you have set and the requirements you have - now try get Linux to work around that!!!!!

It doesn't most of the time. Not without huge amount of investment to make stuff work.

While you take just windows, you can add stuff that "just works" and choose from software that suits your needs.

The next thing is that Linux software is usually built by geeks a lot of the software is built because they can and some to solve some problems they already have, but most of them don't build with much consumer (as in business or person) in mind. They think they do, I am sure they will argue that, but look at the usability that creates inertial? Do they really? Can they even?

And this is one of the reasons that no matter how good the intentions, I do not believe in his life time, they will be able to help the poor man in the street that can't afford a license of windows.




> What I do support whole heartedly is the drive for our schools to start teaching on Linux software. It starts putting the net in reach of the poor man who can piece together a machine from scrap parts and still have a reasonable speed when surfing and working.


I agree, that is why I have supported even projects we did for free. But you know what..... after what I saw in at heart of this industry, I no longer believe that it will get there, and if it will definitely not soon.

The Linux "guys" are getting more religious by the day, they are tightening the licenses that it hurts their own peers. How is that better than how Microsoft cannibalizes its' own industry? It is not really. In other words, on software doesn't work with another - both open source and Linux based - which makes no sense, and then it hurts all the people that are using these two.

They don't seem to understand a simple thing: If they lose their users they lose their purpose in life (software life that is). And if they lose their purpose in life what was the point of the exercise anyway? After all it was not to make money as most of these have no business models behind them but viral distribution for use and then maybe ad a business model (most never do).

I believe a lot of the stuff that is on Linux will be and remain for geeks, I do not believe they want it any other way, lets face it it is a geek camp, and therefore it won't spread to the schools.

You can't expect a 12 or 15 year old to install distributions upgrades, work with Unix command line etc. And the less integrated they become (which seems to be way), the more you need programming skills or to pay someone to get the integration between stuff, even install hardware sometimes.

After they are out of the school environment so they have no help, how will they carry on at home? If they are not technically inclined they will need to pay money to someone every time the need something. That does not help the poor man on the street. They can't afford the grand per hour to fix something, or to learn how to do something, or to upgrade a distribution or whatever. And there are not enough books on the shelf for Linux stuff for the simple user - guess why? Simple.... because SIMPLE user does not exist in Linux.

So, will it be in the schools and give the poor man a machine to work with? I don't think it will happen in my life time, not to the extend that it will make a difference anyway.

And when people leave schools they end up with a Windows desktop anyway at work. So what will schools choose to teach if they want people to become productive in life once they leave school?

What happened to the "Freedom Toaster Project"? They all come out with big hype and die a fast and painless death unless they have fanatic geeks to support them.

Fanatic geeks do not make economics work, business people do and when they get involved it usually involves money.

Sorry for the long post, but some things I have more opinions about than others.

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duncan drennan (29-Jun-08)

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## kernel32

During the past few years I have tried several times to switch to Linux.  And every single time I was left frustrated, and crawling back to Windows.

I honestly tried to stick it out, but eventually gave up hope.  My main issues were having to either beg for help on some forum or chat room, or having to pay top dollar for it.  

We had one linux server that we used as a firewall, and it seemed to work fine at first.  But then we had some lightning and we needed to replace a few parts (4x LAN Cards, PSU, and the motherboard).  To our surprise we couldn't just order the spares, we needed to get replacement parts that would be supported by Linux.

Now for us to do this we had to get a Linux support engineer to come out and arrange everything for us, because we simply didn't have the time or skills available to get the perfect match.  This wouldn't have been a problem had we been running windows on the system.  We had another few incidents that cost us thousands to resolve, mostly because of not being able to use something or other with linux.

My point is that by saving a few Rands initially, we ended up spending thousands.  When something broke we were left with limited and costly options to get them resolved.  For this reason alone I will *NEVER* take the Linux route again.

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## seanwhe

I am a Linux user. Have been for 6 years. I've moved through a number of distro's, settled on Kubuntu and during this time have made various contributions in the community. 

Now before people conclude that this is going to be a pro linux rant, let me say that I hear the pain. Ok, that said, let's take an open and objective look at Linux from the eyes of a Linux user.

I am past the days of evangelizing linux so that people will adopt it. I don't really care what you use, I am only happy if I can continue using linux. So please if you are using windows. Keep using it if it works for you.

I do also have to you use windows, sadly my stock trading platform does not run on linux. Well, truth is there are no good pieces of software out there that work on linux when it comes to the stock markets. So I must go back to windows time and again, that's the reality.

What I can say about linux is that it is stable and, if you know what you are doing, you will always know where you are. 

What I love:

being able to get software at a single commandbeing able to find answers to almost anythingnot having to have huge memory to runnot having to have huge disks to installshaping what I wantnot having to pay

What I hate:
Hardware that does not work with LinuxLicense changes that force incompatibilityReligious nature of Linux supportersArrogance of Linux supportersApplication incompatibility between platformsFeatures come to windows apps before linux

So there a pro's and cons to linux, but I tend to think that linux is the lesser of two evils.

Let's see what's different about Windows.

I love windows because:
Everyone knows to use itMost hardware products supported in windowsMost apps work in windows

I hate windows because:
I am forced to upgrade or be left behindNew hardware is often not compatible with older windows versionsPrices of Windows licenses are expensiveWhen things go wrong, I don't know where I amVirus's love windowsI need permission and registration to install or reinstall a product I bought and ownMicrosoft is anti-competitiveWindows does not focus on being an operating system, it wants to be everythingWindows does not live well with other operating systems

Now good old general user, should not move to linux because of a free beer offer unless general user is prepared to learn, research, ask questions or pay for support.

Windows and MS Office is better for general user and will remain as such until linux and linux apps can bring innovation and features to market and remain compatible with what people want.

What people want and not what linux developers think they want. The ability to swap and change hardware and not be lost as to how to do anything. Ability to buy hardware and know it will work in linux, ability to understand the interface and not have to use the command line.

So, anyone thinking on Linux should first know. Linux is not Windows and don't expect it to be the same. Think what you want, linux or windows. If you don't have the knowledge, then you probably don't want linux.

Mainstream linux is many moons away and I don't care if anyone thinks otherwise. The linux world has come a long way and it will improve, but it is not there for general user yet. That said, general user should not give up and should install and play and learn and keep an open mind.

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Debbiedle (30-Jun-08), duncan drennan (30-Jun-08), Graeme (29-Jun-08)

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## irneb

We're running the Linux Server side. But unfortunately our main office programs (AutoCAD, Revit, 3dStudio) just don't have a linux friendly version. And we simply can't find any alternative (Open Source or otherwise) which even comes close to the usability / functionality of these 3. Even tried WINE (and other non-Open Source) "interpreters" - no go, unless I try an run a 10 year old version of AutoCAD.

A lot of users have complained that (at least AutoCAD) should have a Linux version, seeing as it used to run on Unix in the early 90's  :Mad:  - but that was when it's M$ version ran on DOS ... so.

The big problem is that in '95 AutoDesk decided to move all their programming towards the OS which most of their users were on. At that stage this was Windows 95 / NT 3.5 - with a client base of 93% (the rest on Mac / Unix). I can see the reasoning behind this: "Why waste our time on 3 different versions, when we can keep nearly everyone happy on just one."

I think in most instances software companies won't start making Linux / Mac versions until they see their client base also moving to these OS's. But, unfortunately, their clients are not going to move to anything which doesn't work yet. So it's a catch 22.

The only way I can see any of the M$ tied in software moving out the Window is by 3rd party ports of the Windows Libraries to Linux. Such as WINE. But as stated above - this won't work for the newest versions. And it's not exactly an end-user friendly method - more like a programmer's chalenge.

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## Debbiedle

> Not really. Taking into consideration that most distributions come with so much free software it has a bigger tendency than other things in life.


A slight miscommunication between us Karen - my intended comment was 

"Using anything JUST because it is free, is never a good idea"  I see your passion on the software issue though!





> So, will it be in the schools and give the poor man a machine to work with? I don't think it will happen in my life time, not to the extend that it will make a difference anyway.


  If the latter part of your comment is referring to the volume of  people that need to be helped, then I concede that it may take a while.  The first part of your statement I refute as I have already seen Linux make a difference in 2 individuals lives.  Kids that would never have had this kind of access or machinery if not for Linux.  Not only referring to software licenses but to the fact that they were able to scrounge a machine together from throw away parts. The spinoffs of confidence and achievement not even mentioned.  Proud as punch they both were and sort of local heroes amongst their peers.




> And when people leave schools they end up with a Windows desktop anyway at work. So what will schools choose to teach if they want people to become productive in life once they leave school?


  It is my experience that this will not really be an issue as those who cut their teeth on Linux as an OS get a better basic understanding of what is happening and how the technology is working and are thus far more inclined to get their heads around Windows by simply sussing it out.  Let's face it at some levels Windows is ridiculously simple and kids today are born with built in PC literacy anyway!  Maybe I am too optimistic - I have been told this on occassion - but I do believe that we will be able to see a change should the entire open source programme be adopted by our government as a basis for teaching in schools, in fact I believe there are already pilot projects running?  Anyone know about this?  Shuttleworth foundation is involved if I am not mistaken.




> Fanatic geeks do not make economics work, business people do and when they get involved it usually involves money.


  This comment is really source for a spin off thread, an issue that I am very opinionated about,  I hope you'll be joining me there, will try and get my head around it today. *Gosh, I like good debates!*  But to put it in a nutshell...I think that there is a glimmer of hope that the fanatic geeks may actually start flexing muscle (not Linux geeks specifically) - ALL geeks, partly because the most powerful tool in this world today is the very one we are interacting on and it is after all their playground....I remain excited about this prospect!!!

On that note,  is it technically correct to say that geeks flex muscle? :Smile:

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## Karenwhe

> ....in fact I believe there are already pilot projects running? Anyone know about this?  Shuttleworth foundation is involved if I am not mistaken.


I have been involved amongst countless other project in one of these projects at schools at ground level, in the class room so to speak. Not with SF but *was* HPX (bold on WAS because they no longer exist).

I won't go into the details, but let's just put it this way, I have seen enough to come to some ground level conclusions. The reason I say ground level is because all good intentions have to work at ground level, if they don't no money in the world is going to fix it. But end up rather throwing good money after bad.

I don't think it is an issue of optimism or pessimism. I think it takes time and a variety of combinations, such as the right software combined with the right hardware, availability, right resources and correct support levels all at the right time in the right place to make those grand ideas of good intent work.

That combination is not there yet from what I saw on the ground.

SF has done some amazing things, sustainability is just lacking probably in most of then if not all, all good intent all well and fine, almost all project killed a fast and painless death. Funny enough the projects that work are sustained by money continuously. In the last two years, I think every single person knew or worked with at SF is gone. Nevertheless the ideas were good, but that is it.

We still get called to by people with very good intentions to find "guardians" of freedom toasters as they can't find them at SF. I have no clue what is happening with that project anymore either.

Now don't get me wrong. I am all for optimism, we are amongst the groups that put some volunteering into open source and made also income from open source, but sometimes when you see no significant progress or too many project fail you have to come to certain REALISTIC conclusions.

I am of the opinion that flogging dead horses is not the best past time exercise. 

Something is wrong. The idea/s may be good, but it may be too early, not in the right time, not with the correct combinations or whatever.

How many man hours have you invested volunteering in open source projects to be so optimistic? and for how long have you been involved with open source community projects to speak with such confidence? 

Maybe you invested far more than us and have far more experience and can show us the light.

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## Dave A

> Something is wrong. The idea/s may be good, but it may be too early, not in the right time, not with the correct combinations or whatever.


Too many splinter groups.
Too much parallel, unconnected development.
No central control of conventions and hand-over points to ensure integration of diverse applications.
No big daddy setting the rules.

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Karenwhe (30-Jun-08)

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## twinscythe12332

played around with linux when I was doing my cti course... the small course I did with it showed you how to do the whole gui thing, but also loved going into the command prompt and making you give arb commands. as much as I love having that extra X MB that my DVD drive may be taking, I'd prefer not to have to "mount" the drive every time i want to use it. 

whereas with windows I don't need to go anywhere near the command prompt, lots of stuff works with it, and there isn't version xyz delta quadrant C sector 5. I don't have to choose between the numbers of different "distributions." redhat? ubuntu? is one better, is one worse? I've got a choice of home, professional, business, ultimate, etc with windows. sounds like an understandable scale. 

guess it's the same sort of thing as why I moved to visual studio and .net from JAVA. better program for writing the programs, and I know that it'll work on the platform it was designed to work on.

edit:
bring the discs/whatever and the server home sometime dad and I'll take a look at it. Maybe I need to give linux a second chance.

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## Karenwhe

> Too many splinter groups.
> Too much parallel, unconnected development.
> No central control of conventions and hand-over points to ensure integration of diverse applications.
> *No big daddy setting the rules.*


I completely agree 1000%, but who does the last statement sound like? Maybe Microsoft?  :Yikes:   (I am so glad you said it, not me.)

This is just so funny, but also true. You see, that which you run away from is sometimes the only thing that can save you..... (save your market and up take, in this case).

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## Norri

Wow, this got heated pretty quick.

I believe things are changing a bit faster these days because giants like Google now have a vested interest in the uptake of Linux.  Specifically...

- Picasa for Linux.  This runs on WINE.  So Google is happily contributing to the development of WINE so their own app works on Linux.  Side-effect has been work done to get Photoshop CS2 working and something else I don't recall.  Having Google contributing to the opensource world is so massive, I shouldn't have to explain it!

- More people on Linux == less people on Windows.  Which generally equates to more people using Firefox.  Which generally equates to more people using Google.  It's a long run but Google's in it for the long run, so it could work.

- A side effect of their 20% rule.  (20% of your time as a Google employee can be spent on personal projects).  This is resulting in some more work being done on opensource projects.

I think Google + Ubuntu are the 2 main reasons why Linux will (over the next 10-20 years) becomes a SERIOUS threat to Windows.  Why?  Because you basically have GEEKS who have turned into BUSINESS PEOPLE so the crucial missing block of economics is being filled in.

There are countless problems with both Windows and Linux (and Mac) but the above is why I think Linux is going to become an option for the end-user.  Not the MAIN option, necessarily.  But an option.  Where right now, it pretty much isn't.

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## Debbiedle

> Something is wrong. The idea/s may be good, but it may be too early, not in the right time, not with the correct combinations or whatever.


I believe that you are correct when you say that right now may not be the right time, but if we don't start right now, we will fall behind.  A quick check of my webstats showed me that 0,5% of all users used Linux in 2005.  Today 3 years later 4.6% of all my visitors use Linux.  That is considerable growth.  

One would however expect the Linux growth to be faster considering that it is free, more stable and gives you additional flexibility as far as individual machine applications go.  I suspect the reason the growth has not been phenomenal is because of the *initial* difficulty in use.  The original Linux distros a couple of years ago were similar to programming in DOS and from scratch (for me that was).  Today they are much more user friendly, in fact for some simple applications as easy as windows.  

With perseverance and intent, however,  most things come together, so I do not believe we will be flogging a dead horse.  I think we need to clarify our intent and bring it into our curriculum. It is 2008 and I have for the first time come across a grade 2 kid being taught how to google something - internet research is finally part of the curriculum - why wait for 12 years before seeing the light with open source?  Why not get ahead of the curve for a change?




> How many man hours have you invested volunteering in open source projects to be so optimistic? and for how long have you been involved with open source community projects to speak with such confidence? 
> Maybe you invested far more than us and have far more experience and can show us the light.


Nope - can't show you the light - the windows vs linux debate is a raging debate all over the net and I doubt that the mere mortal I would be able to solve it in a single and simple swoop - but wait for my manic phase, I may rethink this comment! :Smile: 

I have been operating on the fringes of Linux for years Karen - about 5 or 6 now?  Not in a formalised setting, as I am not a techno geek nor even remotely capable on OS implementation,  but certainly looking at it from a business perspective (as a tool for my own business), also looking at it from the perspective of a SA citizen.  I see it as an answer, or as a possible answer and maybe not now, but when then?  I certainly don't see it as something we can discard off hand.  I am also gratified to see that other leading European countries such as France are walking the route of removing Windows as their standard OS, does this include their schools, does anyone know?

Oh yes, I have also sat through the implementation of Linux on the various servers and work stations on our LAN and observed the challenges the IT team had.  Some of them were big -ALL of them were overcome.  One person in the team was 13 at the start of implementation.  He was responsible for solving many of the problems.  It's that GEEK button they have, I shall look for it and clone it!  :Detective:

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## Karenwhe

> I think Google + Ubuntu are the 2 main reasons why Linux will (over the next 10-20 years) becomes a SERIOUS threat to Windows.  Why?  Because you basically have GEEKS who have turned into BUSINESS PEOPLE so the crucial missing block of economics is being filled in.


There I agree completely, give it that time and of course, it is a valid and very real possibility. Especially because both Google and Ubuntu are backed by serious money, deep pockets and business savvy to get it done.

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## Dave A

> ... but who does the last statement sound like? Maybe Microsoft?


The ultimate irony. And don't think for a moment Bill is not aware of it.



> A quick check of my webstats showed me that 0,5% of all users used Linux in 2005.  Today 3 years later 4.6% of all my visitors use Linux.  That is considerable growth.


Debbie - what are you using to generate those stats. You might be including the bot count and internal visits. Here is a shot of the last 30 days worth of "real visitor" visits here using Google Analytics and Linux comes in at 0.76%



I also checked for the last 6 months - 0.80%



> I believe things are changing a bit faster these days because giants like Google now have a vested interest in the uptake of Linux.


The big G is already being seen as the enemy in some quarters. It's funny in a way. We've got people cheering for Live to do better on search. We've got much the same people cheering for Google to do better on OS.

I can't see the inherent maverick nature of the Linux disciples letting Google be their lead dog.

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## duncan drennan

The Windows vs. Linux debate is all about a platform (OS), and most people don't care about the platform. The platform is really just a framework for applications which provide certain outcomes (the web is another platform). Very few people care about platforms (programmers mainly) and lots of people care about outcomes, which means that lots of people care about applications.

Most of the best open source applications run on all the OS'es available (e.g. Firefox), so that really makes the choice of OS for an average office worker irrelevant.

There is probably a relatively short list of things that most people think about,
Can the OS run my applications?What is the cost?Is the OS cool enough for my community?Is it stable?

Cost is a mute point, as Windows "free" (it comes installed on just about every computer you buy). For desktop applications WinXP is just as stable as Linux (viruses could be the only thing to argue here). Cool depends on your community (any graphic designers using Windows or Linux? Nope, they all use Macs).

So arguing desktop OS is really misdirected, as most people care about applications (outcomes actually, but applications help them get there).

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## Norri

> I can't see the inherent maverick nature of the Linux disciples letting Google be their lead dog.


Then you don't understand GPL.  It has nothing to do with leading or following.

The licence basically forces anyone who modifies a piece of software covered by the licence, who then distributes that software, to distribute the changes under the same licence.  Thereby allowing continuous (and unstoppable) progress.

There is no leader.  

There are simply those who guide the process by investing in that PART of the process that serves them.  In doing so, whether they like it or not, they serve the rest of the "system".  The system being the opensource movement.  That is the power of this movement.  And it really is unstoppable.  The proof in that pudding is in the very fact that people with money are investing in it.  They've tried to ignore it for decades now, hoping it would die but that won't happen because the software itself has life (through the hands of its numerous creators).

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## Debbiedle

> Debbie - what are you using to generate those stats.


Hi Dave - AW STATS from Hetzner.  I hear you on the internal and therefore checked a second website that we run that targets the international market as opposed to my site that is geared toward South Africans 
2005 = 0.8%
2008 = 5.1%

Then because I got on a roll, I looked at the stats on my kids site - SA target age 16 - 26
2005 - Nul
2008 = 4.5%

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## Norri

> Most of the best open source applications run on all the OS'es available (e.g. Firefox), so that really makes the choice of OS for an average office worker irrelevant.


True but it also has the side-effect of introducing people to the concept of opensource, free stuff.  I remember many years ago, when I started looking at PHP and Apache (on Windows) I thought, "Wow, if they have this for free, I wonder what else they have." 

And so began my journey into the world of opensource, linux, etc.

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## Karenwhe

> ......... also has the side-effect of introducing people to the concept of opensource, free stuff.  I remember many years ago, when I started looking at PHP and Apache (on Windows) I thought, "Wow, if they have this for free, I wonder what else they have."


Exactly what I was trying to explain in the 100 free books example.

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## Dave A

Debbie - you got me wondering what my AW Stats would look like then. Looking at June there is a difference, but not that much when it comes to Linux. The big difference was Mac.  :Confused: 



In terms of obvious stat generation differences, I notice AW Stats does the calculation based on hits whereas Google Analytics does it on visits.

I'm going to ask for feedback on this from some big board sites.

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## Debbiedle

Would be interesting to see the feedback Dave - our sites are not related to PC or PC users in any way.  I suspect that there will be a marked difference in stats when looking at those sites as well.

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## Norri

Not that any thread needs a conclusion but, nonetheless, my personal conclusion to this thread is that you can't (yet) figure out the 1 or 2 things that are stopping people from using Linux in their businesses because, right now, there are FAR more 1 or 2.

For me, it's a different story because I started off as a Linux geek and gave myself business and marketing skills along the way.  For the average computer user and business owner, it's still a massive struggle but they (the Linux community) are definitely making significant headway, especially with the like of Ubuntu (+ everything Shuttleworth) and Google helping the process along.

Chances are, if it wasn't for Ubuntu, we wouldn't even be having this conversation.  Linux would still VERY much be a server thing and not stand a chance in hell on the desktop.  Right now, it stands a very good chance in hell.  But only there.  For now :P

Thanks for the great input guys, was a fun debate and I hope it continues!

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## kernel32

You deserve some serious credit for keeping an open mind Norri.  Usually the Linux/Windows fights are based on personal experience and personal preference.  Stating the facts like you did, doesn't happen too often.  I couldn't help but agree with you.  Linux is not ready for the desktop yet, but we have to give the opensource guys some credit for getting this far.  Linux might be ready for a real fight some day.  

Personally, I think they should stop adding features, and concentrate on perfecting the current set.  It's not just them though, I've been working on the same project for over 4 years.  5% of the work goes into improving old stuff.  45% goes into bug fixes on the old stuff.  The other 50% goes into new features.  80% of these new features weren't requested by anybody, they just seemed like a good idea at the time (to the boss).  Pretty damn frustrating!!!

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## duncan drennan

This article on The Featuritis Curve is worth a read. There was another post with a graph that I saw somewhere which basically said that features with open source products grow linearly with time.

It really has to do with the type of people involved in a project. Hackers (and tinkerers) like to play with new features, and maintenance does not fulfil that need. The thing is, turning a good product into a great product requires sanding, finishing, polishing (and more polishing). Being able to say No is what can turn a good product into a great one.

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## Dave A

> You deserve some serious credit for keeping an open mind Norri.


I'd like to support that thought too. I was tempted to come back on the difference between ownership and leadership, but Norri nailed the real core issue here - the difference between server and desktop expectations! To be fair, if you look at his opening post it was clear that he had already identified this as a major issue.



> The thing is, turning a good product into a great product requires sanding, finishing, polishing (and more polishing). Being able to say No is what can turn a good product into a great one.


Which reminds me - got two little pieces of sanding and polishing to do here  :Whistling:

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