# Social Category > General Chat Forum >  German Scientists Prove There is Life After Death

## Justloadit

German Scientists Prove There is Life After Death

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## JohnV

Fascinating

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## Basment Dweller

So the conclusions are based on the testimonies of the test subjects? Sounds very scientific...

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CLIVE-TRIANGLE (07-Sep-14)

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## Newretailer

OK, I fell for that, but apparently this is a satirical website with fake stories. Similar to The Onion.

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## Justloadit

Seems I fell for this one too then.

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## adrianh

Deleted...

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desA (09-Sep-14)

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## msmoorad

you know, to those who say theres no God or no such thing as life after death, i say this:

lets just suppose there is no God & no life after death
and i died
so what happens to me now?: nothing

and lets just suppose there is God & life after death
now you, as an atheist
what will happen to you now?

who stands to suffer bigger loss?

the one who "wasted" 60-70 yrs of life on earth?
or
the one who is going to be punished for eternity?

maybe u guys see it differently
but when dealing with those who dont believe in God or life after death, i think thats the best reply.

somehow, they dont seem affected when they are told to look around & see the signs of Gods existence in his many beautiful creations

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## adrianh

Deleted...

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desA (09-Sep-14)

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## msmoorad

> What you are doing is nothing more than hedging your bet.
> 
> We've gone around this debate over and over again. Your argument is flawed in that you are only willing to see the nice things in life and then claim that there is a God but you totally ignore the terrible things. I think that the entire nonsense of religion was conceived to occupy the minds of the masses while the aristocracy have a hell of a lot of fun!


from what i know, all the religious leaders were simple people who lived a simple life
none of them were aristocrats

with regards to the terrible things
they are a punishment or a test from God

reminding us to turn to him & obey his commands

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## Houses4Rent

I quite happily risk going to be punished for eternity - after I died.

Especially after my aunt was dead for a short while during an operation gone bad. She said all the things people say like e.g. one's life flashes past you was utter BS.

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## adrianh

Deleted...

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## Newretailer

> I quite happily risk going to be punished for eternity - after I died.
> 
> Especially after my aunt was dead for a short while during an operation gone bad. She said all the things people say like e.g. one's life flashes past you was utter BS.


I almost drowned in the sea when I was about 10 and I beg to disagree. My life DID flash past me. Someone saw me and came and rescued me. I also heard someone screaming in the far distance, only to later realise that was me.

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## adrianh

Deleted...

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desA (09-Sep-14)

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## Basment Dweller

Try and imagine what life was like before you were born; is what life will be like after you die...best to just make lemon juice with these lemons whilst we're alive and stop worrying about bronze age fairy tales.

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## Newretailer

> hmmm...or so you thought...while you were drowning in fear and adrenaline... our silly little mental computers tend to flood its subconscious to conscious, and sensory buffers under stress and we get to experience all sorts of weird and wonderful things. Like going into to the light and all that rubbish, what do you think is going to happen if all your sensory buffers get flushed before you die....


I am not in the conversion business. I know what happened, I was there and you weren't. 

I have a friend just like you, Adrian. She is an atheist and makes fun of everyone's belief systems, believing only she is right, not realising that in that very act she is no different than any zealot trying to tell the world only they know the truth. 

Me, I understand that a belief system is just that: a belief system. It doesn't matter for what religion it is. I consider atheism just another religion. As such, I respect what people believe no matter how different it is from my own. I don't try and belittle them.

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## adrianh

Deleted...

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desA (09-Sep-14)

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## Blurock

Why is it that every time that people make a comment or statement about religion or faith or God, the atheists feel that it is their duty to belittle the people who differ from them. If you do not understand or do not have the will to explore or to learn, at least respect the views of other people. I really do not understand how people can be so narrow minded to think that they know all and that that only they can be right -everyone else is wrong.

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## adrianh

I keep forgetting to keep my views to myself.... I'll try harder!

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desA (09-Sep-14)

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## Houses4Rent

> I almost drowned in the sea when I was about 10 and I beg to disagree. My life DID flash past me. Someone saw me and came and rescued me. I also heard someone screaming in the far distance, only to later realise that was me.


Maybe all experiences are not the same then.

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## Houses4Rent

> Me, I understand that a belief system is just that: a belief system. It doesn't matter for what religion it is. I consider atheism just another religion. As such, I respect what people believe no matter how different it is from my own. I don't try and belittle them.


I would not call atheism a religion, but I also tolerate all other religions, as long they do not try to convert me and are getting too fanatic making other people suffer like suicide bombers etc. The Muslims waking up other people far too early would annoy me a lot, so would church bells, but fortunately I can chose how far away I live from them.
There is also the thing called tradition. I followed the tradition, well my parents made me, but I have no idea why they did that to me (probably tradition too) as the can only be seen at Church at Christmas. I called us the submarine Christians, coming up only once a year...

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## adrianh

...and here we have the way I see the world...

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## andrecv

and there goes the BIG BANG BULLSHIT down the drain...

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## Blurock

> ...and here we have the way I see the world... (consciousness is a mathematical pattern)


So do we agree that everything in the universe exist and move along predetermined patterns? There appears to be a certain order in all the chaos and man is just a little spec of dust in all of creation.
Your DNA is programmed, the seasons are programmed, the tides of the ocean, the orbits of the planets, the movement of the galaxies - everything is perfectly programmed. Who started it all? Who did the programming? Maybe we should get out of our own little egoistic worlds and see what is really out there and stare in awe at this great universe and God's creation.

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## Basment Dweller

> Who started it all? Who did the programming?


Who created God? What was there before God? You're just moving the goal posts a little further back and ending up with the same problem that you are trying to prove away by evoking God in the first place...

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## Blurock

> Who created God? What was there before God? You're just moving the goal posts a little further back and ending up with the same problem that you are trying to prove away by evoking God in the first place...


There are many questions that we thought could never be answered, that have been answered. Scientists and physicists are revealing more about our universe our bodies and how things work every day. Medical science have found cures for previously incurable ailments. Archaeologists have found explanations for much of our planet's history and we now know more about the far off planets and constellations in our universe. 

Our forefathers could never have imagined a man on the moon, a heart transplant, cures for a number of diseases, cell phones, self driving cars, quantum physics etc etc. Narrow minded thinking prevented many people from realising their full potential. Sailors who thought the earth was flat, would not venture too far from land etc. Information and knowledge have a quantum effect on thinking and development which accelerates as we get to know more about our environment and what makes it tick. 

While we stick our heads in the sand and refuse to accept different theories and opinions from our own, we will make no advances and will continue to live in a fool's paradise. The answers will come to us if we keep on exploring and reasoning to find our real purpose on earth.

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Dave A (09-Sep-14)

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## Justloadit

If we are simply a spec of dust in the universe, as a human species, we are pretty arrogant that God would worry about the spec of dust, it would be comparing to a scientist trying to figure out the flight path of a single atom in the bowls of the sun, remembering that our sun makes up 98% of our solar system as far as mass is concerned. We are basically on our own, and we must make of it what we can, and not expect that the superior being is really interested in that 1 little atom amongst the gazillion atoms out there.

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## adrianh

> While we stick our heads in the sand and refuse to accept different theories and opinions from our own, we will make no advances and will continue to live in a fool's paradise. The answers will come to us if we keep on exploring and reasoning to find our real purpose on earth.


as my 15 year old daughter would say: Facepalm!

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## wynn

> the one who "wasted" 60-70 yrs of life on earth?
> or
> the one who is going to be punished for eternity?


I should really stay out of this thread, but have to answer this one point.

What proof is there that if you don't believe in whichever GOD others believe in that you will be punished for eternity?

"But the Bible, Qur'an, Torah says so." is not proof, someone has to come back from eternal damnation and Prove it, and don't say Mithra, Jesus, or some other Deity rose from the dead because there is no proof of that either.
Dogma is just a scare tactic to keep the 'FAITHFUL" faithful in other words it is a tactic to keep the "GULLIBLE" gullible.

Atheism is not a religion, it is a consciousness that queries or disbelieves accepted 'Dogmas'.
It is not an organization that is there to destroy your beliefs, the main religions do enough of that already without Atheists having to do anything. (the latest 'Posterboy' is ISIS saying "Convert or die")
Atheism is just a reasoning mindset that does not have that unquestioning belief in your particular sect that accepts that there are precepts that are perhaps nonsensical to a non believer.

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## adrianh

> I should really stay out of this thread, but have to answer this one point.
> 
> What proof is there that if you don't believe in whichever GOD others believe in that you will be punished for eternity?
> 
> "But the Bible, Qur'an, Torah says so." is not proof, someone has to come back from eternal damnation and Prove it, and don't say Mithra, Jesus, or some other Deity rose from the dead because there is no proof of that either.
> Dogma is just a scare tactic to keep the 'FAITHFUL" faithful in other words it is a tactic to keep the "GULLIBLE" gullible.
> 
> Atheism is not a religion, it is a consciousness that queries or disbelieves accepted 'Dogmas'.
> It is not an organization that is there to destroy your beliefs, the main religions do enough of that already without Atheists having to do anything. (the latest 'Posterboy' is ISIS saying "Convert or die")
> Atheism is just a reasoning mindset that does not have that unquestioning belief in your particular sect that accepts that there are precepts that are perhaps nonsensical to a non believer.


Couldn't have said it better myself...

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## Blurock

> What proof is there that if you don't believe in whichever GOD others believe in that you will be punished for eternity?
> 
> "But the Bible, Qur'an, Torah says so." is not proof, someone has to come back from eternal damnation and Prove it, and don't say Mithra, Jesus, or some other Deity rose from the dead because there is no proof of that either.
> Dogma is just a scare tactic to keep the 'FAITHFUL" faithful in other words it is a tactic to keep the "GULLIBLE" gullible.


I am not punting any organised religion or sect, because people misuse religion for their own selfish means. However, if I look around me and at  the wonders of the universe, I cannot believe that everything just happened by itself. We as humans may not have the intellect to understand the wonders of the universe, but more and more is revealed every day.

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## Newretailer

Atheism may not be defined as a religion, but it really is. It is a set of beliefs about whether you think there is a higher power or not. It is what you belief about where we come from and where we are going to. 

Being an atheist does not somehow make you superior or know better than everyone else. You are not more intelligent or more questioning as you seem to imply, Wynn. You have not somehow found the real answer. You have just found a set of beliefs that works for you. I will respect your belief system if you respect mine.

If you look at comments across the net, atheists come across as arrogant and aggressive. I cannot understand why they are so intolerant of what others belief. There seems to be this huge desire to make fun of everyone else not sharing their "superior" views. As a matter of fact, atheists seem to be more obsessed with God, even if it is to deny His existence, than many believers.

I think when you are really confident in your own beliefs, you have no need to break others down.

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Blurock (08-Sep-14)

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## adrianh

...yes...maybe it is better that I just keep mouth shut.

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wynn (09-Sep-14)

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## Newretailer

You know, Adrian, if I see a thread that doesn't interest me, I just don't open it. Why not just stay out of a thread that you should have no interest in whatsoever? It sure looks like a God-obsession to me lol.

The arrogance with which you say "My views do not break anybody down." and then go ahead with a rant doing exactly that, just makes me wonder what the driving force is behind you and so many other atheists? Is it insecurity? Is it a deep fear that just maybe you are wrong and if you get enough people believing the way you do, the fear goes away? I really would like to understand this obsession some atheists have with belittling everyone else.

As far as claiming atheism is not a belief system, you are wrong. You BELIEF there is no God. You BELIEF there is no life after death. See? Belief system. I am starting to think atheism is the new sheep following the latest popular trend, because you all say the same things, just like sheep. 

I truly do not care what you belief. Personally, I have deep pity for people who don't have a spiritual aspect to their life. They are missing out on a whole dimension of being human, but it is their right. For me, I don't belong to any church so all the rubbish spewed about churches doesn't hold true. I have had enough experiences to know beyond a shadow of a doubt that I am right in believing what I do. 

I raised my children to think for themselves and my one son decided atheism is for him, which I respect. He also started doing what you guys are doing here and I quickly put a stop to that. You want respect, respect me. Just like that atheist friend of mine constantly telling me how other parents at her kid's school criticise what she beliefs. She says this whilst carrying on in exactly the same way you do  :Wink: 

You guys are just not as amazingly superior as you would like to think. You don't know better than anyone else. As I said, you simply found something working for you, just like the rest of us. And I still feel pity for you.

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## BusFact

> I keep forgetting to keep my views to myself.... I'll try harder!


Well, I see that only lasted about 24 hours  :Smile:

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## Newretailer

I don't think Adrian can help himself  :Big Grin:

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## BusFact

> ... makes me wonder what the driving force is behind you and so many other atheists? Is it insecurity? Is it a deep fear that just maybe you are wrong and if you get enough people believing the way you do, the fear goes away? I really would like to understand this obsession some atheists have with belittling everyone else.


Let me try explain my view: I certainly try not to belittle anyone else's belief system, so please let me know if I head in that direction. But what drives my probing and questions? Well yes I suppose insecurity and fear are part of it. I have grown up being told that I will burn for eternity if I don't believe in God and follow his rules. That kinda keeps those two emotions near the surface. I am now starting to doubt the reliability of my sources. I am beginning to struggle to follow the logic in the belief that a religious God exists. So my driving force is a quest for knowledge and understanding. I am beginning to get the impression that many people are religious purely because of peer pressure. If that's the case, then the more discussion on the topic the better.




> As far as claiming atheism is not a belief system, you are wrong. You BELIEF there is no God. You BELIEF there is no life after death. See? Belief system. I am starting to think atheism is the new sheep following the latest popular trend, because you all say the same things, just like sheep.


To me this argument is irrelevant. People can call atheism a belief system or not, its their call. I would like to point out that I do not believe that "there is no God" or that "there is no life after death". It may well be the case, I just currently think its unlikely and that the alternative where these don't exist are more likely. For example, their could be a creator God who pays no interest to our daily lives. There could be an after life as soon as this sophisticated virtual reality experience which we think of as life, finishes and we return to our real lives. I don't know. Point is that I do not believe they don't exist, I just have no reason to believe that they do. That's a much less arrogant point of view imo. I think the sheep analogy could probably fit both parties  quite well  :Smile: 




> I have had enough experiences to know beyond a shadow of a doubt that I am right in believing what I do.


This is the bit that saddens / frustrates me the most. Everything religious seems to come down to a personal experience and I suppose a personal interpretation of that experience. Where do those of us who have not had the privilege of such an experience stand? 




> As I said, you simply found something working for you, just like the rest of us.


Well its not really working for me so well, because I can't figure out why the vast majority seem to follow a religion. What am I missing? 

The other issue is that although some atheists are perhaps not the most tactful ( <cough> Adrianh <cough> ), they don't have an extremely well organised program that instils religious belief from a young (easily influenced) age. I and everyone else I know, was told that God exists and that the Bible was true. It was not a case of discovering it for ourselves. To me that is a far more aggressive tactic than some individuals ranting on websites or around the braai.

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## adrianh

> Well, I see that only lasted about 24 hours


Ah, you got me once again....damn....I have to try harder.

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## BusFact

> ...
> maybe u guys see it differently
> but when dealing with those who dont believe in God or life after death, i think thats the best reply.
> 
> somehow, they dont seem affected when they are told to look around & see the signs of Gods existence in his many beautiful creations


Well, I suppose its quite possible that these beautiful creations have been made by a God or Superior Being of sorts. I certainly don't have a better explanation to be honest. Its the nature of this God that I have a problem with. Religion hypothesises that this God takes an active interest in our daily lives and has a set of rules for us to follow. I'm finding this a bit of an unlikely scenario. However I don't have a better one. I do have a few that I consider to be of equal likelihood though, but I can't provide any proof, they are merely ideas too. Examples would be:

- A god created this world as a science project, and has since moved on to more interesting things. He either has no idea we exist, or couldn't care less.
- We are a virus infecting a cell (earth) which makes up a much larger organism.
- This life is an expensive virtual reality holiday from our real world.
- We are a contamination left behind by a space travelling civilisation when they visited a long long time ago.
- We are a god's science experiment, and being monitored and analysed to see what we do, but not given any instructions or an after life.
- We are a creation by an advanced civilisation's betting syndicate. Clients lay bets as to what these human creatures will do next.

I'm not trying to be sarcastic, although its probably come across that way. I am trying to point out, that there could be many reasons for all the wonderful things around us which do not require a religious, omnipresent and caring God. Wonderful creations in our environment does not necessarily mean the existence of a religious God.

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## Newretailer

Busfact, thank you for your very thoughtful reply. I found that honest and respectful. I have been where you are now. I was married to an atheist and was pretty much one myself for a while. When my brother committed suicide, I really started questioning what everything was for. I started reading religious books from as many different religions I could find. I saw that they had the same underlying thread and that it was us humans that twisted it and used it for our own purposes, to dominate over one another, to go to war, to make ourselves better in the eyes of others.

I eventually found something that made a lot of sense to me and fitted into my basic Christian beliefs, without excluding everyone else. 

I think we are almost programmed to search, because it is certainly something which preoccupies mankind, even if it is to find that one doesn't believe in anything.

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## Newretailer

As per your second post, it could just be that God really is an all-encompassing Love which created us with free will. It is after all humans that do dreadful things to each other and then we blame God. Maybe He is just waiting patiently for us to see the way we are using our free will, is not working. I suspect He may have a long wait  :Smile:

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## Blurock

> As per your second post, it could just be that God really is an all-encompassing Love which created us with free will. It is after all humans that do dreadful things to each other and then we blame God. Maybe He is just waiting patiently for us to see the way we are using our free will, is not working. I suspect He may have a long wait


Atheists appear to be obsessed with the eternal fire and damnation, maybe because they do not believe in God or any Superior Being. This is not how I experience God. My belief is that God is eternal love. Jesus did not strike his perpetrators and accusers with lightning and damnation, on the contrary, he asked for their forgiveness. If we make an effort to experience the love of God, we may just be able to understand where we fit in and be able to show love for our fellow man and the environment around us. 

Being a Christian or a Muslim or a Jew does not guarantee eternal life. He said that there will be many false prophets and  "Not everyone who calls out to me, 'Lord! Lord!' will enter the Kingdom of Heaven. Only those who actually do the will of my Father in heaven will enter". The will of the Father is that we should love Him and each other. You do not steal from someone that you love, do you? You also do not harm someone that you love in any way. A mother will say that she is not hungry, just to ensure that her children get enough to eat. A true friend will give his life to save a friend.




> Owe no one anything, except to love each other, for the one who loves another has fulfilled the law. For the commandments, You shall not commit adultery, You shall not murder, You shall not steal, You shall not covet, and any other commandment, are summed up in this word: You shall love your neighbor as yourself. Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfilling of the law. 
> 
> "Love is patient and kind; love does not envy or boast; it is not arrogant or rude. It does not insist on its own way; it is not irritable or resentful; it does not rejoice at wrongdoing, but rejoices with the truth. Love bears all things, believes all things, hopes all things, endures all things."


We are so obsessed with rules and religious laws, but if we just loved each other, we are set free from the law as love harms no-one.

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Newretailer (09-Sep-14), Petrichor (09-Sep-14)

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## BusFact

Blurock, I can find no argument against your philosophy on how to live life. Its admirable, and something I expect many if not most people try to strive for. Obviously some people strive better than others.

I don't necessarily agree on the source of your reasoning, or the theory behind it, but to me that now becomes pretty irrelevant. Your philosophy is not "in your face" or dictatorial and the end result is "good" (sorry, I'm sure there is a better word but I can't think of it now). I also agree with the morals you listed, but for different reasons.




> Atheists appear to be obsessed with the eternal fire and damnation


Well that's because its the driving force behind organised religions attempts to convert and increase it's following. Its the stick part of the carrot and stick analogy. The carrot is eternal love / peace and happiness. However, the carrot is very ineffective at convincing youngsters or even adults that they should behave and perform in a certain way throughout their lives. 

Its what creates the resentment I think many atheists feel who have been brought up in religious communities. Nobody likes being threatened. 




> We are so obsessed with rules and religious laws


Agree fully, but I think we've already done that in that other thread.

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Blurock (10-Sep-14)

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## Blurock

> Well that's because its the driving force behind organised religions attempts to convert and increase it's following. Its the stick part of the carrot and stick analogy. The carrot is eternal love / peace and happiness. However, the carrot is very ineffective at convincing youngsters or even adults that they should behave and perform in a certain way throughout their lives. 
> 
> Its what creates the resentment I think many atheists feel who have been brought up in religious communities. Nobody likes being threatened.


My view is that is exactly where organised religion goes off the track. You can lead a horse to the water... Nothing that is forced is enduring. No-one can tell me who to vote for, how to live or what to believe in. We have to discover that for ourselves. That is why it is so difficult for us as sinners to set the right example. 

I hope I am not sounding self righteous, but I was fortunate to have discovered the Truth in my teens. I still have many questions, but I have found most of the answers that I thought could never be answered.

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## Phil Cooper

Where, in the Bible to they talk about going to Hell?

As far as I know, it says you (a) have eternal life if you do good, or (b) die.

Can someone quote me where they talk of burning up in hell?

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## adrianh

> You know, Adrian, if I see a thread that doesn't interest me, I just don't open it. Why not just stay out of a thread that you should have no interest in whatsoever? It sure looks like a God-obsession to me lol.
> 
> The arrogance with which you say "My views do not break anybody down." and then go ahead with a rant doing exactly that, just makes me wonder what the driving force is behind you and so many other atheists? Is it insecurity? Is it a deep fear that just maybe you are wrong and if you get enough people believing the way you do, the fear goes away? I really would like to understand this obsession some atheists have with belittling everyone else.
> 
> As far as claiming atheism is not a belief system, you are wrong. You BELIEF there is no God. You BELIEF there is no life after death. See? Belief system. I am starting to think atheism is the new sheep following the latest popular trend, because you all say the same things, just like sheep. 
> 
> I truly do not care what you belief. Personally, I have deep pity for people who don't have a spiritual aspect to their life. They are missing out on a whole dimension of being human, but it is their right. For me, I don't belong to any church so all the rubbish spewed about churches doesn't hold true. I have had enough experiences to know beyond a shadow of a doubt that I am right in believing what I do. 
> 
> I raised my children to think for themselves and my one son decided atheism is for him, which I respect. He also started doing what you guys are doing here and I quickly put a stop to that. You want respect, respect me. Just like that atheist friend of mine constantly telling me how other parents at her kid's school criticise what she beliefs. She says this whilst carrying on in exactly the same way you do 
> ...


eish...suffice to say that I bite my tongue....

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## Houses4Rent

No idea Phil, I never read it.

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## Blurock

> Where, in the Bible to they talk about going to Hell?
> 
> As far as I know, it says you (a) have eternal life if you do good, or (b) die.
> 
> Can someone quote me where they talk of burning up in hell?


http://www.biblestudytools.com/topic...-bible-verses/

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## HR Solutions

Just a question, but why is it every time there is a religious discussion, then the "believers" of whatever, feel it necessary to ask/say that the atheists always belittle them and have a lot to say etc etc ?? That is exactly the problem with every single religious discussion there is ..... Just because you a believer says something, does not mean that an athiest cannot reply with some sort of comeback without then been told off that they are "belittling" other people with beliefs and views !! For every comment about something, there will always be a response of some sort from someone else and everyone has a right to their belief.  I personally tend to believe similar views to Adrian and just because him and I may be quite active on the forum with these type of discussions does not mean that we are right or wrong and neither does it mean you are right or wrong ...... even though some people believe if they copy paste information from other sites !  I personally do not believe information gathered from the internet.  The internet may be a useful tool for info, but is also a very big tool for propaganda etc etc or basically absolute crap.

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adrianh (30-Sep-14), wynn (01-Oct-14)

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