# General Business Category > Marketing Forum >  Locating heat-pump distributors, importers, sales in SA

## desA

I'm trying to develop a network of distributors, importers & sales outlets for heat-pumps in South Africa.

Are there perhaps useful internet-based business directories that can perform directed searches & cut down the laborious efforts required on Google, Ask & so forth?

I'd welcome advice & links in this regard.

Thank you so much for your kind assistance.

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## Pap_sak

Excuse my ignorance, but are we talking about air-conditions that can be used as a heat-pump, or heat-pumps on there own? Or have I totally missed the boat...wouldn't be the first time.

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## Dave A

I suspect you'll be looking for plumbing wholesalers in the main. Maybe electrical wholesalers too?

Maybe do a search for _plumbing supplies_ or _plumbing suppliers_ on google.co.za and then check out the directory type listings that come up. If you're having problems staying on the South African Google search centre, use the custom Google search funtion on this site - it should be SA biased regardless of where your IP indicates you're searching from.

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desA (22-Apr-10)

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## desA

Thanks so much Dave. This is very helpful.

You are correct in that Google loses focus after the first page, or so, based on my current locality.

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## desA

> Excuse my ignorance, but are we talking about air-conditions that can be used as a heat-pump, or heat-pumps on there own? Or have I totally missed the boat...wouldn't be the first time.


Hi Pap_sak,

A few options are on offer:
1. Standalone heat-pumps (separate from storage tank);
2. Integrated heat-pumps (with storage tank);
3. Heat-recovery air-conditioners (HRAC)

You may have a point here, in that (1) & (2) may very well be managed by the plumbing trade in SA (not certain though), whereas (3) by the a/c trade.

Practically, all can be managed & installed by an a/c company, with perhaps final plumbing tie-ins seconded to that trade as required, to suit local laws.

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## murdock

we need to connect up to one of these units with one of my power quality instruments to watch the the load profile...then you can show people why you want to see these units...and how much money they will save.

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## desA

> we need to connect up to one of these units with one of my power quality instruments to watch the the load profile...then you can show people why you want to see these units...and how much money they will save.


I'm always open to these kinds of ideas. Tell me more about your power quality instruments & the load profile measurements.

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## murdock

a very important factor when calculating electricity consumption is power factor...in other words if you have a power factor of 1 it is ideal some cheap motors only have an effieciencies of 75% meaning the power factor is only .75

like energy saving lamps...the power factor of some of these units i have tested is around 0.2 you know what that means only a 20 % efficiency...anyway i am not here to bash anyones bright ideas...merly stating a documented fact.

back to what i can offer you is a print out of excatly how efficient your pumps are...by testing power factor...inrush current on start up and running current...using a class A instrument a fluke 435 one of the very few available in SA in fact i think i am the only private contractor who owns one of these instruments....i have used this instrument to do test for SABS to verify specifications for metering equipment at conlog.

you would be able to determine how long it takes to heat the water etc.

in other words i cna measure  volts...amps...kw...kva...kvar...harmonics...etc etc.

i have instruments which run 24/7 at the moment monitoring loads for customers wanting to find out where there electricity bill is coming from...to assist with load balancing on 3 phase systems...i do a 24hr 7 day recording which will idicate if the load is balanced what is using the electricity and how to balance it to become more energy efficient.

i have electricians tell me but they checked the load with a current clamps meter and it seems balanced...it is extremely difficult to balance a 3 phase system which is made up of most single phase components.

you can do a load test using 1 current clamp if the machines in a factory for example have 3 pahse motors or balnced 3 phase loads...thats why my test equipment has 3 current clamps and the 435 has 4 current clamps for more acurate technical assesments.

and with the use of a fully radiometric infrared thermal imager we can tell you which part of the system is unbalnced before i even connect the current clamps and if there are any hot spots

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desA (22-Apr-10)

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## desA

Thanks Murdoch. I'll read & re-read your post. It looks very interesting. I have a lot of time for thermal imaging - it can be very useful. I'll definitely get you to run some tests once the products reach SA. I can see an immediate use in further optimising the system internal energy transport.

My heat-pumps typically have a PF in the region of 0.985 or better, as measured in a climatic test chamber.

Remember, for home use, the customer is not affected by PF - in most countries, as they pay for kWh.

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## wynn

IOPSA.co.za should list all the sppliers to the plumbing industry!
There should be the equivalant in the electrical industry?

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desA (22-Apr-10)

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## murdock

i am aware of that....which is one of reasons why it is advisable to do a load survey and energy audit etc before spending R100 000 on a PFC control for big industrial insatllations...it is not always the answers...it all depends on the company tarrif structure...sometime just changing the tarrif structure helps reduce the electricity account...but thats a whole different ball game.

but saying that V X I = watts 230 X 10 = 2300 watts /1000 = 2.3 kw

if the equipment is made 20 % more efficient you drop the amps to 8 amps 

230 X 8 = 1840 /1000 = 1.84 kw you are saving electricity.

you just dont get penalised for bad power factor in this country YET. 

i have a feeling things are going to be changing in this country as more pressure is put on eskom and demand becomes greater

i am considering carrying out an energy audit on my own house to see where and how i can cut my electricity bill...by doing load profiles before and after recordings and looking at every electrical component in my house to see how i can reduce the electricity account...i have a recorder connected to my workshop to see how much power we are using...my lights in the workshop for example are costing me R139.2
 per month to use.

how i worked this out 

i have 10 of  5 ft double fittings 

58 watts x 2 each =116 watts per fitting 

on for 10 hours a day for 20 days a month 

116 watts x 10 fittings x 10 hrs  x 20 days  = 232000 watts /1000 = 232 kw

232 kw X 0.60 per/kw = R139.20 per month 

our first step in saving...we have fitted a 2 lever switch which switches on every second light...so now depending on the type of work we onlt switch on every second light...which will cut back bill by at least 20 - 30 %....this is just the first step...my goal is to get my electricity account back to an account of R250 per month....without having to spend R50 000 to achieve it and R2000 a month to maintain it...if i cant achieve this then i will hammer a spike into the ground so that it blows the fuse on the pole cut the cable do a joint in the ground and tee off the workshop before the meter then close everything up and call them to replace the fuse...saving electricity at a minimul cost...if they want to turn us into thieves by ripping the butt out of things then they must expect things like this to happen.

now beside all the free electrcity...huge bonuses...they are selling electricity for less than it cost to generate....which means you and i the suckers pay the bill :Mad: 

if i find out more kak like this i am gona come up with better and easier ways to bypass your electricty meter...without being caught...like clamping a bridge just under the meter between the 2 red wires...you dont break the seal just slow down the useage.

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## desA

> IOPSA.co.za should list all the sppliers to the plumbing industry!
> There should be the equivalant in the electrical industry?


Thanks very much, wynn. Excellent.

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## baruti_athol

oops..,i have posted a message to another place.
here i want to say:
i know a little bit of heat pump.i want to buy some for myself and my neighbors.who can give some points about brand and price.
my email dominick.tau@gmail.com .
thanks
baruti

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## AndyD

> I suspect you'll be looking for plumbing wholesalers in the main. Maybe electrical wholesalers too?


Refrigeration wholesalers too. I got some info on heatpump geysers from Metraclark in Cape Town. They have 150, 200 and 250 lkiter I think. They are basically a refrigeration unit with a heat exchanger in the cylinder. They also have an electrical element for faster recover under high consumption so they're actually a hybrid.

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## murdock

please give us a detailed explanation as to why i would install a heat pump rather than a solar heater...

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## baruti_athol

> please give us a detailed explanation as to why i would install a heat pump rather than a solar heater...


i want getting an explanation too

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## AndyD

> please give us a detailed explanation as to why i would install a heat pump rather than a solar heater...


Basically because the sun doesn't shine every day. Also not every building is easy to install large solar panels. A heat pump gives you a more predictable amount of hot water at any time, solar installations are not predictable in output....especially in Cape Town.

Both systems are relatively expensive to install. Even with the measly government rebate scheme, depending on their lifespan they may never save enough in electricity to warrant the outlay costs.

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## murdock

thats why i would need a break down and a ROI spreadsheet...including the maintenance cost per year...to justify the reason for wanting to change over...taking the increase in elctricity tarriff.

i always find the energy saving stand at the house and garden show rather interesting...it is much like the potato peelers and mat cleaning stands...an easier way of reducing the water from from your geyser is by installing a pressure reducing vavle on the pipe...without having to install of those shower heads which sting the living day lights out of you...while showering or just reduce the time you stand in the shower...soap on... soap off...

otherwise change the taps to a mixer which you can preset...water on...water off...put soap...water on...get out the shower...no thanks i enjoy my shower...which is why i will be stripping my shower soon to make it bigger and to put the taps at the door...so that i dont freeze when i try switch the water on...and dont burn the living daylight out of my arm when i try adjust the taps to the correct temp...

this is something that i can never under...why the plumbers always put the taps directly below the shower head and not to the side or opposite wall next to the door opening.

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## wynn

AAAH!! Plumbers
I couldn't agree more.
why do they put those stupid angle or ball arms and roses in anyway, I always retrofit a sliding bar with a hand held shower head and hose, that way I can have a full shower and the wife can adjust the height to keep the spray off her hair, also I don't have to stand on my head to rinse the soap from between my legs.   Use a good quality one though.

Another gripe I have is, why do they fit the public toilet urinals so high, do they want everybody to pee on the floor?


 :Banghead:

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## AndyD

> thats why i would need a break down and a ROI spreadsheet...including the maintenance cost per year...to justify the reason for wanting to change over...taking the increase in elctricity tarriff.


This is a tall order. Most of the units available are manufactured in the far east and relatively new on the market so nobody has a inkling of how long they'll last or what kind of maintenance might be required over the years.



> ...also I don't have to stand on my head to rinse the soap from between my legs..


.
This conjures up an interesting mental picture..... :Big Grin:

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## wynn

'Chest out stomach in, not stomach out chest in'

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## Olderwagen

Hi Des

If you decide to import and distribute yourself, give me a call so that I can arrange the forwarding and customs clearance for you. elmarie@ifsdbn.co.za 

Hope it is all a smashing success!

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desA (11-Sep-10)

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## desA

> Hi Des
> 
> If you decide to import and distribute yourself, give me a call so that I can arrange the forwarding and customs clearance for you. elmarie@ifsdbn.co.za 
> 
> Hope it is all a smashing success!


I have e-mailed you separately. Will be glad to hear from you at your convenience.

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## wynn

Des please reply to my PM or phone me!!

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## mark0290325

Dera ALL:

We are one of the biggest heat pump factories in China. If you want to import and sell them pls contact me.
then I will let you know more. 
Best regards  
Mark

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## desA

> Dera ALL:
> 
> We are one of the biggest heat pump factories in China. If you want to import and sell them pls contact me.
> then I will let you know more. 
> Best regards  
> Mark


Hi Mark,

Please advise the following:
1.  Do you supply heat-pumps using R-134a refrigerant?
2.  Do you supply heat-pumps with sanitary-grade vented safety condensers?
3.  Are your units tested to SANS 60335?
4.  What is the COP for your systems - & how is this tested/proved?
5.  Can you supply order lots of 10 units per shipment, or what is your minimum order?
6.  Do you have plans to produce in South Africa - if not, why not?

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## Blurock

> AAAH!! Plumbers
> Another gripe I have is, why do they fit the public toilet urinals so high, do they want everybody to pee on the floor?


....maybe its for the long bulls with the short horns. :Devil2:

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## Dave A

> Hi Mark,
> 
> Please advise the following:


Welcome back, Des  :Big Grin:

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## AndyD

> Hi Mark,
> 
> Please advise the following:
> 1.  Do you supply heat-pumps using R-134a refrigerant?
> 2.  Do you supply heat-pumps with sanitary-grade vented safety condensers?
> 3.  Are your units tested to SANS 60335?
> 4.  What is the COP for your systems - & how is this tested/proved?
> 5.  Can you supply order lots of 10 units per shipment, or what is your minimum order?
> 6.  Do you have plans to produce in South Africa - if not, why not?


7.  Do you have an agency network in SA that stocks spares for any models you are selling?

Welcome back from me as well  :Smile:

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## desA

Thanks Dave... been hectic of late launching our new range of Nano heat-pumps.

Your thread prompts pull me back in, from time-to-time - an excellent reminder, they are. I trust that all is going well with you & yours.

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## desA

Thanks AndyD.

Spares backup is absolutely vital to the successful roll-out of heat-pumps. Depending on the quality of machine offered, the spares situation could become critical. A machine designed for a 10-15 year operating life, would typically work on around 1% spares holding for all units sold - this is a number based on experience with well-designed, robust RHVAC systems.

With some of the low-cost heat-pumps we see attempting to enter the SA market, the spares requirement may typically be a lot higher, with expected compressor lifetimes in the region of 2-3 years only. This is a critical factor to consider when purchasing heat-pumps. Also important is how long the heat-pump will be out of service should a component failure occur.

A decent supply chain should see the customer with minimal downtime & a solution provided within 24 hours of problem arising. The customer must not be inconvenienced & the backup service must manage this aspect carefully.

An additional question to our aspiring supplier:



> How are units tested on arrival in SA, & before shipment to customer?

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## mark0290325

Pls contact with me. We are China heat pump factory. China famous brand. Msn: mark0290325@hotmail.com Skype:mark0290325

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## desA

Hi Mark,

Would you mind possibly answering the questions posed in the previous two pages?

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## IanF

Des
How is your side going have you started selling to small guys yet for their houses? 
Also are you part of the Eskom rebate/subsidy programme?
 :Wink:

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## desA

Hi IanF

*Nano range of domestic hot-water heat-pumps*
The Nano range of heat-pumps is now on sale in SA. Stock of the full range is being held at our stockist in Pinetown, KZN & we are developing a full product roll-out. A number of units are operating very successfully & we seem to have happy customers.

The Nano is designed as a high-end heat-pump, with a complete installation, service & backup in place. The philosophy is to present the customer a one-stop experience from a detailed assessment of their needs, through installation, onsite quality audit, service plans, spares backup & service capability. A cradle-to-grave approach, where we consider the customer to be king. 

What is becoming clear in the current SA heat-pump scene is the following:
1.  A number of unsafe technologies are currently being offloaded on the unsuspecting public (underfloor heaters posing as hot-water heat-pumps);
2.  Some offering are incredibly dangerous & must be avoided (no sanitary grade condenser, excessive refrigerant pressures - explosion risk).

The reasons for points (1) & (2) above are mainly due to a lack of suitable local testing standards &/or understanding of the safety aspects required for a hot-water heat-pump. The Nano is designed & build to comply with AUS/NZ 60335 standards, which are a well-polished part of the international IEC 60335 testing standard. 

Up to this point, there does not appear to be an SA version of this standard. When it is finally published, it would come under the name SANS 60335. We have pressed SABS/NRCS to provide details of where we can submit the Nano range to the SANS 60335 testing standard. Up until today, we have not yet received a reply, in spite of numerous follow-ups.

*Eskom subsidy program*
Without wanting to appear to bash the marketplace, it has to be said that this program is currently a disaster. The program supports heat-pumps many of which are extremely unsafe in design & which would most certainly never pass AUS/NZ 60335. Since no suitable SANS60335 testing standard is in place, what are essentially underfloor heating heat-pumps, are being imported from China & dumped into SA. Many of these designs are incredibly dangerous, & in some cases, will lead to geyser explosions within the next few years - most have inappropriate refrigerant selections.

The Eskom program seems to have been initially rolled out in a huge rush, & contained an kick-off set of suppliers, most of whom obtain their stock from around 3 Chinese manufacturers.

With the Nano, the process we followed with Eskom was to apply through all the correct channels, submit all the correct paperwork & press to move into their program, but along the correct procedural pathway. The outcome has been amazing, with paperwork going round in multiple circles & exposing what can simply be called "a non-system". The whole program is an unmitigated disaster. It appears that due to high-level approaches from the solar & insurance industry, that the Eskom rebate program may soon die a quiet death - in its current form. As it stands, suppliers are not sure of whether the subsidy will even be in place in December.

*So, to answer your question* - "Also are you part of the Eskom rebate/subsidy programme?"
Not at present.
We offer a product discount equivalent to the Eskom subsidy with all purchases of the Nano heat-pump.

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## IanF

Des
That sounds good, do you operate in Johannesburg yet

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## desA

> Des
> That sounds good, do you operate in Johannesburg yet


Thanks, IanF.

We are in the process of rolling out in Jhb & are presently training reliable installation teams. 

If you'd like to forward your contact details per PM, I'll have our team contact you to set up a site visit, so that we can determine the best solution for your hot-water heating needs.

*Application notes*:
I've found that it is vitally important to assess your particular installation properly, in order to provide an appropriate hot-water heating solution. We have some applications, for instance, where a single heat-pump feeds a central geyser, which then pre-feeds satellite geysers. These installations have to be properly evaluated & the correct size heat-pump installed. In other single-geyser applications, the heat-pump sizing is straightforward.

Selection of the correct geyser/heat-pump connection scheme is absolutely essential to successful operation of the complete system. It's no use having a good heat-pump, but having coupled incorrectly to/from the geyser. In many cases, the customer ends up with a geyser half full of cold water; in some the geyser contents mixes with incoming cold water, leading to luke-warm water; in others, incorrect installation can multi-cycle the heat-pump on/off leading to premature compressor failure & high electrical consumption. We have also seen installations where the water supply from the geyser pulses hot/cold when the heat-pump runs. There are appropriate technologies to prevent these installation failures. We believe that this is our strong point.

So the project has to be properly managed from the outset, in order to achieve a cost-effective, reliable solution for the customer.

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## seaice

Factory produce 65C hot water heat pump (small capacity to large capacity, R134a system). If you are interested in it, please feel free to contact me.

We also have other HVAC products, normal air/water heat pump, AHU, and fan coil units.

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## coris

I thought I could help you, but we are doing the different products, I am doing the promotion products! :Embarrassment:

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