# Social Category > South African Politics Forum >  Solution To Crime In South Africa

## Butch Hannan

There are very few of us across the the whole spectrum of society who have not been impacted by violent crime. Much of this crime is committed by the same individuals. Quite often these individuals who happen to be out on bail have been recorded as committing in excess of thirty similar crimes. I would like to see the following steps taken.

_1. No bail to be given for any person caught for violent crime such as murder, robbery, rape, hijacking etc.

2. Mandatory minimum sentences of 50 years to be imposed on conviction.

3. Bring back hard labour as part of the sentence.

4. Build a mega size prison in the middle of the Karoo to house all these individuals. This complex must have all the necessary courts, judges, attorneys etc inside the complex.

5. All individuals apprehended for these types of crime to be moved to this complex. Remove them completely from society.

6. Take the vote away from people serving prison sentences. Why should they enjoy this right when they have transgressed against the constitution._

I bet that our crime rate would drop significantly if these steps were implemented. 

Butch Hannan

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## Dave A

> _1. No bail to be given for any person caught for violent crime such as murder, robbery, rape, hijacking etc._


You might not feel the same way if you're arrested for a crime you did not commit.  :Stick Out Tongue: 

I think bail is there for good reason. The *real* problem on this one is the time it takes to get these matters to court.



> _6. Take the vote away from people serving prison sentences. Why should they enjoy this right when they have transgressed against the constitution._


I think that would be entirely reasonable.

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## Chatmaster

I would love to respond to your ideas but I believe that the real problem is located within the traditions that have been grown within the mentality of a large majority of South Africans. There are several things that needs to be fixed before we get to a realistic solution for crime and imo it consists out of several steps that needs to be taken, some simultaneously. But I would like to expand on this when I have more time.

Instill a new culture whereby nothing is for free but are rather worked for.Compassion and understanding for other peopleUndo the damage of BEE and AA within the justice system, from the SAPS to the PrisonsPolitical nutrality within the SAPSImproved training and discipline within the PoliceBetter training and improved discipline within the Metro Police forcesBetter selection of leadership within the Police and Metro Police forcesProper border controlAn absolute ban on employing political alies within senior positions of the SAPS, our Police Commissioner is a freaking teacher and doesn't belong in his positionA VERY serious look at getting our SAPS training back up where it was 20 years ago starting at the SAPS College in PretoriaNO political interference witin any Police force, they are supposed to be politically neutralHonest and open reflection of the true stats of crime within the countryImproved Firearm regulation and required training for licensed gun ownersThe acceptance of the FACT that South Africa has a unique crime situation and that the true experts is located locally and not abroad. No other country, Not the US, AUS, UK, NZ etc can teach us much about crime, we are in many regards unique as we have the most aggressive crimes in the free modern world.

Every day there is:
50 Murders51 Residential Robberies76 Rapes41 Car Hijackings

The fact remains that only
40% of all crimes reaches the courts68% of Rapes never reaches the courtsOnly 5% of rape cases ends with a conviction61% of Murder cases never goes to courtOnly 11% of murder cases ends with a conviction89% of Agrevated robbery cases never goes to court! ONLY 3% ends with a conviction!!!!

You tell me where the problem lies!

The list is very long and not nearly complete and I would love to expand on this some time.

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AndyD (19-May-10), Butch Hannan (18-May-10), Dave A (17-May-10)

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## Butch Hannan

Dave,

I am referring to people who are caught red handed committing violent crimes. Bail should not be an option for these people. They need to be removed from society.

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## Butch Hannan

Roelof I want to thank you for the statistics which to say the least are rather frightening. I agree 100% with your suggestions but unfortunately with the lack of will and speed that Government works at this is very long term. I really doubt whether the country can afford this. We need a very *"quick fix"*. We need to get the violent criminal elements off the streets behind lock and key. My family and I were the victims of crime in a rented holiday house at Shelley Beach about three years ago. My wife has only now recently stopped hiding every knife in the house at night.

The stats that you give are to a large degree caused by criminals out on bail. It is on record that some of these individuals have been involved in excess of 30 crimes of a similar nature. Whoever said crime does not pay obviously does not live in South Africa!!

Let us use whatever means we have to get them out of society!!

Butch Hannan

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## tec0

In all honesty it will take an event of apocalyptic proportions to end crime in this country. Now I don’t see it happening... You can call me a pessimist but it doesn’t change the fact that we are worth as much as the small change in our pockets. 

Now that scares me, because we have no-way to protect ourselves against these criminals and as long as these words ring true you are on borrowed time.  A good song I keep on thinking of when I read stuff like this is “Soldier Side by System of a Down” not my favourite band but sometimes they make you realise how pointless things are becoming. Another song you may want to check out is “Land Of Confusion by Disturbed” the song was originally done by Genesis but I like this version. 

The point to this post is that crime will not go away with better prisons and better social structures. Crime will only go away if the criminals start to lose... Right now I don’t see that happening. No we go out at night armed with coffee and pepper-spray with a neighbourhood watch sticker and they get guns, fully automatic guns. Who do you think is more intimidating?  :Whistling:

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## desA

The problem is that many of the petty cases end up clogging up the courts, leaving no time for the more serious matters.

In Asia, the police are left to clear the petty crime cases & to force the perpetrator to pay restitution. This can even be applied to matters where people have died. As long as the aggrieved family is adequately compensated by the perpetrator, a settlement is often arrived at & life goes on. If a settlement cannot be reached, then the matter is referred upwards to the courts.

In this sense, the local community plays a role in basic conflict resolution.

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## tec0

For any system to work we need the government to work first. See here is the problem: a man get pulled over by two cops only they are not cops they are criminals dressed as cops. This time he survived...

And yet our beloved police never found it in there infinite wisdom to perhaps tell people âOk this is what were going to do in that street at that time. If there is somebody else at night claiming to be us then do-not pull overâ No they would rather do nothing about this growing problem.  

 :Drunk:

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## Dave A

> In Asia, the police are left to clear the petty crime cases & to force the perpetrator to pay restitution. This can even be applied to matters where people have died. As long as the aggrieved family is adequately compensated by the perpetrator, a settlement is often arrived at & life goes on. If a settlement cannot be reached, then the matter is referred upwards to the courts.


 :EEK!:  Am I the only one thnking this would be a *really* bad idea in this neck of the woods? Based on track record, SA "street justice" is pretty brutal.

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## AndyD

> Am I the only one thnking this would be a *really* bad idea in this neck of the woods? Based on track record, SA "street justice" is pretty brutal.


I don't see this working here either. The police are having a hard enough time doing their existing job and with the corruption that already exists I don't think giving them a role of judge and jury in compensation cases is a good idea.

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## tec0

Justice or rather the quality of being just or fair will make for a good corner stone. A fully functional workable problem solving government would be good foundation. Now what is good building material? Education, equality, good living standards and job creation comes to mind. 

We know the questions, and we know the answers but something always goes wrong somehow, and everything stays the same...  :Surrender:

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## desA

Perhaps, with all their apparent faults, the Thai police are more mature than the SAPS?

These people could be considered as law-enforcement extensions of their local community, rather than as employees of a huge, monolithic central SAPS service provider.

It is this local accountability aspect that is important.

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## Butch Hannan

This will never work in our country as our police force are not beyond reproach. There are quite a few of them involved in criminal activities.
I personally do not trust a policeman or traffic cop which is a very sad state of affairs.

Butch Hannan

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## sterne.law@gmail.com

Solution to crime. There are many schools of thought, most looking at the roots. While I do not deny the root or cause approach is always good, I believe taht addressing the court system is the way to go. We need a more successful prosecution rate. It is no good spending money on more police, because it does not matter how many criminalsyou arrest, if tehy do not get punished. Prosecutors are overloaded and do not have investigative resources. A look at making the strike rate better plus harsh sentencing may be a good start.

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Butch Hannan (19-Jun-10), Dave A (23-May-10)

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## Peter Princeton

> In Asia, the police are left to clear the petty crime cases & to force the perpetrator to pay restitution. This can even be applied to matters where people have died. As long as the aggrieved family is adequately compensated by the perpetrator, a settlement is often arrived at & life goes on. If a settlement cannot be reached, then the matter is referred upwards to the courts.
> 
> In this sense, the local community plays a role in basic conflict resolution.


ok....so THAT is where the idea for the Judge Dredd movie came from..... :Smile: 

and yes, even in THAT movie there was corruption at hand...

not to mention bad judgement. :Wink:

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## desA

> This will never work in our country as our police force are not beyond reproach. There are quite a few of them involved in criminal activities.
> I personally do not trust a policeman or traffic cop which is a very sad state of affairs.
> 
> Butch Hannan


LOL. The Thai police are of the most corrupt in the world. They were once referred to as an organised criminal gang.

Oddly-enough, though, it is the extension of the Asian gregarious cultural role, in terms of conflict resolution at the local level, where they excel.

As I understand things, in Africa, the culture is also gregarious in nature. If so, then perhaps mechanisms can be found within those structures & norms to deal with many of the current problems?

Harder & harsher laws will only further alienate the have-nots & haves in society.

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## adrianh

I think that the best deterrent to crime is public flogging and execution. No I'm not joking.

Every town should have a square where on a Saturday afternoon punishment is metered out. A bit like the Roman circus.

Theft and petty crimes - good whipping
Rape - public castration
Crimes where weapons where used - chopping off one hand.
Murder - hanging

People need to be reminded as often as possible that punishment will be: swift, harsh and public.

Putting people in jail simply has no value.

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## tec0

> I think that the best deterrent to crime is public flogging and execution. No I'm not joking.
> 
> Every town should have a square where on a Saturday afternoon punishment is metered out. A bit like the Roman circus.
> 
> Theft and petty crimes - good whipping
> Rape - public castration
> Crimes where weapons where used - chopping off one hand.
> Murder - hanging
> 
> ...



I donât think so... Public executions sounds like the answer but it is NOT the answer. Here is the thing; take into consideration all the corruption that we have seen on TV. How many innocent people will be publicly mutilated or murdered?  :EEK!: 

For your suggestion to work you must first get the police force to be corruption free and the law systems must be working perfectly before you can even consider any form harsh justice.

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## adrianh

*News24*

*Cable thieves beaten up*

_Johannesburg - Two men were beaten by angry commuters inside a Putco bus after they were found in possession of stolen copper cables in KwaMhlanga, Mpumalanga, on Thursday. 

Police spokesperson Nonhlanhla Kgosana said the incident happened on the R568 near Luthuli Village.

The two men, aged 18 and 19, were travelling in a bus from Ekosini Village to Pretoria.

"Some passengers became suspicious of the pair and searched their bag. They found the cables and subjected the two to a rigorous interrogation," Kgosana said.

"The two men apparently failed to explain where they got the cables and passengers beat them severely while the vehicle was still in motion."

Both suffered serious injuries.

Kgosana said the commuters then instructed the driver to stop the bus and dragged the two men out of the bus. 

Police soon arrived at the scene and the men were taken to the KwaMhlanga Hospital.

"They confessed to the police that they had stolen the cables in the Ekosini Village and were going to sell them in Pretoria", said Kgosana.

The two were expected to appear in the KwaMhlanga Magistrate's Court on Friday._

*Kangaroo courts - exactly what we need. It is great that the general public is standing up to the continual nonsense.*

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## tec0

I will agree that the public was able to get these two people to justice and that their own version of beating them was âarguablyâ justifiable. However, a mob mentality has its own considerable dangers.

If a person is falsely accused by the public and the public continue to do this person bodily harm, and this personâs injuries are fatal. Then you have an ugly case of murder on your hands. Remember all is to be presumed innocent until proven guilty.

I understand that court procedure is lengthy and sometimes the accused doesnât always get the punishment they rightfully deserve. However that being said if you are falsely accused you will be happy that the court system exist and that you are NOT victim to a mob mentality, because you will get a chance to state your case.

Still I will admit that once you are in custody, you are locked up and your life is left to the mercy of the other criminals. We all know that bad things happen while being incarcerated, and yes it is a death sentence via HIV not to mention the permanent mental scaring you will have that may resort to suicide.  

Now, one must consider if the systems are âworkingâ then crime will lose its momentum. Right now evidence point to crime being out of control so what is wrong with the system?  :Banghead:

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## desA

Much of the difficulty lies in the divergent nature of the two systems of justice - colonial versus tribal.

The challenges will come in how to successfully integrate both of these systems.

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## Dave A

Moral of the story for cable thieves - rather take a taxi. At least there are fewer people on board.  :Frown:

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## adrianh

DaveA - Good one!

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## Galjoen

I entred my former workplace in The Strand police station where a lot of complainants were waiting for the more than sleepy police officer to attend to their complaints.I heard a person reported to the police officer that his car which was reported stolen the previous day was found back by himself. The police officer said to the complainent to drive back to his home in the stolen car and that he was to busy and that someone will later come to his house to take a statement. I told the police officer that the vehicle must be cancelled before the owner could drive with the car. I was informed by this officer to keep quite and that it is not the old days. Now I ask you????? What kind?

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## BusFact

Oh dear. That is worrying. He's essentially driving a stolen car. Hope he doesn't get shot at by some gung ho cops.

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## tec0

Not too long ago I remember that two young men were shot at by the police because the police identified the car to be stolen property. I will be honest I canât remember if both of them died in the end but one did die. Then it was found that not only was it the wrong car it was the wrong model and make! 
Sadly this was a very costly mistake made by our Police. 

So if the police informed the man to drive the stolen car home I would ask to speak to police officerâs superiors immediately.  :Confused:

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## Butch Hannan

Jail sentence with "Hard Labour" would have an effect.

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## tec0

If you want to fight crime, create jobs... If you want to fight hunger produce enough food. Imprisonment doesnât solve anything... giving people an alternative to crime I think would be a better start. 

Yes you will always get your bad people, but what good will imprisonment do? Look at the American prison system. Some of the most powerful gangs are now being controlled from within prison walls. So the only alternative is the death penalty. But again who will make sure that the death penalty is not being abused? 

Hard Labour sounds good, but consider the effect it will have. Officials in the American system used their prisoners for contracting. Road work that kind of thing... in the end the Officials made millions and the prisoners ended up being crippled... In the end the system was scrapped... The point is, before you can introduce any system you need to introduce incorruptible custodians... That is going to be difficult to do...  :Confused:

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## Butch Hannan

The powers that be have instituted a quick process justice system for people caught committing criminal acts during the world cup. Some transgressors that have been caught have been tried, convicted and sentenced. This begs the question  as to why this cannot be the norm!!!
We need to get these people off the streets.

Butch Hannan

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## tec0

Right now South Africa wants the other countries to see that they are capable... This is true; I myself fear the future of quick justice, because you cannot rule out corruption. And then there is intention versus survival...   

When is a criminal act truly criminal? There is a difference between a person steeling food from the local super market to the monster killing families in their homes for fun. The person that took the food, intentions was to stop hunger. The monster killing families wants to promote sadistic needs and pleasures and gain profit from it. 

It is so easy to say that people are too lazy to work for money. This is utter BS created by the rich to enslave the poor! I know a very important man that is part of one of the biggest contracting firms in South Africa âif not the biggestâ He said himself âif you donât want the money I am willing to pay then that person havenât suffered enoughâ and the money he is talking about cannot sustain a person, nor a family... 

Now, what does this say about that company and their attitude towards the poor and the uneducated? 

Crime is the result of greed and sometimes sadism or hate. This is almost always true. But I have seen good people do stupid things out of desperation too. The question is what failed? Look at the education system, job opportunities or something as simple as a âsustainableâ income. âand I am not talking about R100000 a year incomeâ

If you have eliminate desperation you can concentrate on the other side of the coin. The evil individual that wants to hurt abuse and destroy humanity. They are easy identifiable because their actions are inhumane.

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## adrianh

I still say public floggings is the way to go. We all get together on a Saturday afternoon and watch the criminals get 1-10 lashes. Rapists get their nuts chopped off and murderers get their heads chopped off. Serial thieves first get one hand chopped off and if they are caught again, the other hand. 

Swift, harsh punishment is the only way to go.

This has an added bunus: We will be able to put the new stadiums to good use and we will be able to blow our Vuvuzela.

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## Butch Hannan

Crime is crime regardless of who commits it. Once we bring morality into the issue then we are on extremely dangerous ground. Theft is theft whether it is committed by an overfed rich man or a hungry poor man. I agree that the unemployed and poor have to be helped by the government and society at large. We all have a "moral obligation" and NGO's in all probability do more than the government.

*My issue is about violent crime which I expect to get a lot worse when the world cup is finished. These criminals need to be removed from society.*
butch Hannan

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## Butch Hannan

_Eish!!! Eina!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!1_

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## adrianh

So how do you propose we remove the government and three quarters of the population from society?

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## adrianh

I agree with Butch on one thing - theft is theft. The notion that it is ok to steal when you are hungry only serves to perpetuate the problem.

They have hands, some know how to work the land, why don't they grow their own food. Why do they go from the rural areas to sit in townships without toilets and running water (but have TVs & cell phones mind you). The point is that they are perfectly capable of cultivating their own subsistence crops, cleaning their own environment and digging their own longdrops.

I spent a lot of time in Zambia. The bulk of the people are dirt poor, yet they smile and live simple lives. 

I have no sympathy whatsover for those who bitch and moan about a lack of education, a lack of money etc; Take responsibility for your own life, get off you lazy ass, grow some food, dig a longdrop, pick up the trash in your township, don't crap in your water, read a book and get the F out of my yard and my dustbin.

Yes, the F...rs are too lazy to work and no it is not *utter BS created by the rich to enslave the poor!* They can grow food and sell it, but they will rather steal to buy KFC & Black Label.

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## tec0

In the end, we will inevitably fall victim to cruelty, and bad things will happen. Still when it is all said and done there will always be a benefactor, the syndicate responsible for every aspect of human suffering. 

See, you can mutilate, execute or lock up every criminal on the face of this earth; there will always be one more criminal, one more horrible crime. It is for this reason you must get to the root of the problem at hand.

Strangely enough this root is woven into society, and is dysfunctional by default. I donât know why this is really. My best guess is; for things to work, things must stay broken...   :Fish:

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## AndyD

> I still say public floggings is the way to go. We all get together on a Saturday afternoon and watch the criminals get 1-10 lashes. Rapists get their nuts chopped off and murderers get their heads chopped off. Serial thieves first get one hand chopped off and if they are caught again, the other hand. 
> 
> Swift, harsh punishment is the only way to go.
> 
> This has an added bunus: We will be able to put the new stadiums to good use and we will be able to blow our Vuvuzela.


Sounds like you're advocating Muslim Sharia law. Since when has the punishment ever deterred a criminal?
You must also be careful what you wish for, most white collar crimes are also theft as is tax evasion and fraud etc. You're likely to have half of the privileged section of society missing limbs if you're not careful.   




> I agree with Butch on one thing - theft is theft. The notion that it is ok to steal when you are hungry only serves to perpetuate the problem.


I disagree, we live in a society that differentiates according to the severity and circumstances of a crime. Theft isn't just theft same as speeding isn't just speeding and taking the life of someone isn't just murder. You get prosecuted and sentenced according to the severity and the circumstances around the offence not merely the result of the offence.





> They have hands, some know how to work the land, why don't they grow their own food. Why do they go from the rural areas to sit in townships without toilets and running water (but have TVs & cell phones mind you). The point is that they are perfectly capable of cultivating their own subsistence crops, cleaning their own environment and digging their own longdrops.


Working land and growing crops is great if you have land and equipment. Same as digging longdrops is great if you live in one place  If you don't live in one place then digging a longdrop every time you need to kak can be quite a tall order. 




> I have no sympathy whatsover for those who bitch and moan about a lack of education, a lack of money etc; Take responsibility for your own life, get off you lazy ass, grow some food, dig a longdrop, pick up the trash in your township, don't crap in your water, read a book


You say don't moan about lack of education and money but without either you can't cultivate land or read books. 




> and get the F out of my yard and my dustbin.


What's so valuable or private about your garbage that you get defensive about it. If you've thrown stuff away you've already disowned it.




> Yes, the F...rs are too lazy to work and no it is not *utter BS created by the rich to enslave the poor!* They can grow food and sell it, but they will rather steal to buy KFC & Black Label.


This is just propagandist rant. I can see you're annoyed about something but you have only generalizations and no constructive suggestions.

I agree that the crime issue needs to be addressed but I would advocate prevention rather than punishment.

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## adrianh

*Sounds like you're advocating Muslim Sharia law. Since when has the punishment ever deterred a criminal?*
Come come, fear is a great deterrent - Religious people tow the line because they are scared that they might burn in hell.
A soldier in basic training polishes his boots because he knows if he doesn't he is going to get a opF_k.
Children used to do their homework because if they didn't they would get smacks at school.

*You must also be careful what you wish for, most white collar crimes are also theft as is tax evasion and fraud etc. You're likely to have half of the privileged section of society missing limbs if you're not careful.* 
And this is a bad thing how?

*I disagree, we live in a society that differentiates according to the severity and circumstances of a crime. Theft isn't just theft same as speeding isn't just speeding and taking the life of someone isn't just murder. You get prosecuted and sentenced according to the severity and the circumstances around the offence not merely the result of the offence.*
Ah this might be so but you do not consider that a person can get away with anything provided he has a good contacts and enough money. Glen Agliotti is a case in point.

*Working land and growing crops is great if you have land and equipment. Same as digging longdrops is great if you live in one place If you don't live in one place then digging a longdrop every time you need to kak can be quite a tall order.* 
I am quite sure that between a number of people they could purchase or steal a fork and a shovel. If digging a longdrop is a tall order then how are they planning to do unskilled labour in the first world.

*You say don't moan about lack of education and money but without either you can't cultivate land or read books.* 
Most anybody can figure out how plants grow and they are able to understand picture books. If you say that they are too stupid to figure out how a carrot comes into existence then we are in bigger trouble than I thought.

*What's so valuable or private about your garbage that you get defensive about it. If you've thrown stuff away you've already disowned it.*
The fact that my garbage is still standing on my private property means that I haven't disowned it yet.

*This is just propagandist rant. I can see you're annoyed about something but you have only generalizations and no constructive suggestions.*
Yes I do have a constructive suggestion - Swift and harsh punishment.
Define "constuctive". Is it an opinion that agrees with yours?

*I agree that the crime issue needs to be addressed but I would advocate prevention rather than punishment.* 
Now I can turn around and say that this statement is not "constructive" as it constitutes a generalization that does not consider that crime will still be comitted and that those crimes still need to be punished.

*We can go round and round - you will not convince me that your views are "better" than mine. Yes they are different but not inherently better.*

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## tec0

> Same as digging longdrops is great if you live in one place If you don't live in one place then digging a longdrop every time you need to kak can be quite a tall order.


First off this statement was absolutely brilliant!  :Applaud: 

Honestly there is no right and wrong here. Yes crime is a problem. Now for crime to “go away” we will need a working justice system that can be used by all, regardless of wealth. We need to find more permanent solutions to deal with criminals. 

Killing and mutilations will probably stop most criminals because they will be crippled, castrated or dead. Locking criminals up is not worth it because like us; America, Australia and England have really big problems in there prisons. Hard labour if used correctly can allow for skills development and a proper legal income but again it is also open to abuse. 

Let us say for a moment second hand or “stolen goods” have no value and via clever electronics we can actually shut down stolen equipment so it will have no use at all. If something has no value and is useless then criminals will not steel electronics anymore. 

What about money? With technology as it is we are basically living in a cashless society because nearly all of us with access to ATM cards will use the card rather than running around with cash. So if we better the systems. Criminals will no longer have access to bank notes and this will be very good for places like petrol stations and casinos. 

Technology can engrave diamonds so once again the system is available we only need to make it work! Other jewellery like gold might still be a problem but again if it has no second hand value “meaning you as the owner can get money for it” but the criminal gets nothing then there is no profit for the criminal. 

I agree that drugs, violent crimes and murder must carry the death penalty only! And we have spoken about this before: tracking devices planted into the human body in a place like the heart or brain will dramatically reduce crime to 0. Simply because you will know where every person was when the crime was committed. 

The truth is people “myself included” dislike the big-brother surveillance system but it will work. And the technology is already available. 

The point I am making is that there is more than one solution to a problem the question is and I have asked it before: Why is nothing being done?  :Detective:

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## Dave A

> Burglars have raided the home of one of the key figures charged with preventing crime at the World Cup, South Africa's deputy police minister Fikile Mbalula, media said Tuesday. 
> 
> Mbalula lost several expensive appliances, including an LCD television, when his official residence in Pretoria was burgled at the weekend in what police believe was an inside job, reported the Star.
> 
> Mbalula's spokesperson confirmed the incident to the newspaper but did not give further details.
> 
> "We have left the matter in the hands of the [local] police," Paena Galane said.
> full report from M&G here


Seemed relevant to the discussion at hand  :Stick Out Tongue:

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## adrianh

When I walk down a road and a dog attacks me, I give it a swift kick. The second time I give it a harder swift kick. From then on I carry a 357 Magnum when I walk down that road. I don't pat the dog, talk nice to it, give it a shelter with hundreds of other dogs and feed it a nice meal. 

When a murderer says that it is great to be in jail because he has a bed and three meals a day, which he never had, your first world justice simply has no value. First world justice means absolutely nothing to a third world mind. It means as much to that mind as fuzzy logic does to a 4 year old child that grew up in the bush.

An eye for an eye - like it is said in the good book.

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## tec0

In the end it is true that logic goes out the window... But it doesnât matter what you or I say, to the law we are irrelevant and is subject to imprisonment if we question the law. So, perhaps anarchy will prevail. Our history is full of revolutions and it did change the world. 

I think it is just a question of time when all our systems and control measures fail. But this also comes with a warning; If all the systems fail, human morality fails with it.

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## adrianh

Man is a simple animal with an IBM XT on top of a monkey brain. The two are in a recursive loop giving the impression of intelligence. We are the ghost in the machine. The "civilized" ones tend to use the XT a bit more that the others. Most of the ones running the XT's a bit more think that they are actually Cray's but that the only run one Pentium III processor. I got news for you, you are not a Cray and you overclock your XT, your IO ports are crap, you have haphazard base memory and your operating system is Man OS rev 1.1c. Your IO port firewalls filter and alter input haphazardly and changes depending on your chemistry at the time. If we evolve for another 200,000 years we may become 286's but then, we will probably end up destoying our power supply only to start all over again as apes. Darwin and natural selection laugh at our endevours to evolve by ourselves. We are like sheep trying to will ourselves into growing wings and fly. And yes, I speak for myself too, my XT and monkey brain don't always sync up too nicely. Sometimes my monkey brain is in control and sometimes my XT is in control. Most of the time fate is in control.

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## Dave A

> Most of the time fate is in control.


Perhaps fate expects your intervention to achieve its goal  :Detective: 

The bigger the numbers, the more predictable the outcomes including the effect of aberrations.

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## adrianh

*The bigger the numbers, the more predictable the outcomes including the effect of aberrations.* 

There are lies, damned lies and then there are statistics.

We have taken 1 trillion samples of Nelson Mandela's life. In each sample he never died once - therefore he is immortal.

Unfortunately statistics are only as good as the assumptions that they are based on and even if the assumptions are good, staticians are unable to predict Black Swan events.

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## Dave A

The weakness is not in the numbers, it is in the extrapolation and interpretation.

But I'm more interested in the fatalist implications, chief being if you can't affect the outcome; if fate rules, why try to do anything?

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## Chatmaster

I thought it to be a good idea to through a bit of fuel on the fire.

Interestingly it is nearly impossible to obtain crime statistics pre 1994. I firmly believe it is to ensure that there is no way for anyone to compare the apartheid government with the ANC government. But my opinion is worth very little in that regard.

However I did find some information from the CIA and Interpol that in summary stated that from 1950 to 1993 there was a total of 309,000 murders in South Africa and Namibia combined over the 44 year period. (Remember that SA was a protectorate of Namibia) Anyway, that equates to an average of 7,000 murders per year. Since 1994 We had an average murder rate (excluding Namibia) of 47,000 murders per year!

Now to put this in perspective we need to add the population totals of 1950 and compare those to 2010. The official statistics shows that SA population in 1950 was 13,595,000 and for 2010 is 49,109,100. Keep in mind that the 1950 count excluded people living in Transkei, Bophuthatswana, Venda and Ciskei. This indicates to me that there is something seriously wrong here!

A further issue I have is that according to report issued by Interpol in 2001 they stated that the official murder rate issued by the SAPS was only about half of the actual figure! This means that the actual murder rate would not have been 24,000 for that year but according to Interpol 47,800! This same discrepancy was also noted by Medical Research Council as their figures was also exceptionally higher than that of the SAPS.

One last bit of paraffin on the fire: 94% of all persons released after spending their sentence in jail immediately return to crime!!!

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## adrianh

I think that crime stats are fairly useless. Many crimes are simply not reported to the police because people know that the police will do nothing anyway. A lot of women feel ashamed about reporting rape. Why would anybody living in a township bother to report a crime comitted against them, all that would happen is that they will be victimised. Pre '94 crime statistics are just as useless for the exact same reasons.

If 94% of people released from jail return to crime it proves that jail sentences have no value. If the person is dirt poor and lives in a shack to start with, sitting in jail ain't going to make any difference to his life anyway. I stand by what I say - swift harsh public punishment. You have to punish a first world man with first world methods.

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## tec0

Honestly this subject is debatable and the dynamics of the subject are almost infinite. How do you stop crime? The truth is if you eliminate the financial aspect of crime, you are left with sadistic crimes or hate crimes and its many aspects. 

It is clear prisons donât work. So will public mutilations work? Probably yes, itâs kind of hard to steel with no hands. Castrations along with removing a leg will definitely stop a rapist. Executing murderers will remove them permanently. 

Realistically however... We have our backs against the wall and no way to protect ourselves, so other then wishful thinking to nurture hope, there is not much we can do... We simply have to deal with the fact that we are powerless. 

This time around the criminals won and our own laws are protecting the criminals so what is the use of law then?  :Confused:

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## Butch Hannan

I bet you this one has been solved already. Our firms delivery driver told me on Monday that his sister who is a police woman was robbed in her house on Saturday of valuables and her service firearm. On Tuesday he told me that one of the culprits had been shot dead on the Monday and some of the valuables and the firearm recovered.

Butch Hannan

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## Butch Hannan

One exception  to the 94% quoted by you is offenders who do religious courses in the prisons where the re-offending rate is as low as 5%. Unfortunately only a very small percentage of offenders actually do these courses. The prison where I was involved in out of a total of 500 only 15 attended the course of 14 weeks(Alpha course). We ran three courses a year. Out of the forty five who attended the confirmed statistics show that 40 have not gone back to jail. I personally have the assurance that there are 40 less criminals on our streets

The official fall back rate is presently about 77%

Butch Hannan

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## Dave A

So make Alpha courses compulsory as part of the sentence?  :Stick Out Tongue: 

I think that will just mutilate the stats on the Alpha Course success rate.

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## Dave S

Quote: "I stand by what I say - swift harsh public punishment. You have to  punish a first world man with first world methods."

Don't you mean, "Punish a Third world criminal with third world methods". 

The first world method would be to first find a "politically correct" name for the crime that has been committed, this makes the crime less serious. Then try the offender as a respectful member of society. Give him a sentence that is reduced because he is a "family man". Ensure that his jail cell is equiped with a TV and Cell phone. And then let him out early because Nelson is having a birthday...

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## adrianh

Ah, you see, the IO post that controls my finders and the IBM XT were out of sync again.

You must also remember that during the trail, if it ever comes to it, the criminal trades his jail sentence to give evidence against his cousin who is even a bigger criminal and doesn't spend any time in prison watching the world cup on his plasma TV in his suite.

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## Dave A

> After a four-and-a-half year investigation, and two-and-a-half years since charges were first laid, former police National Commissioner Jackie Selebi has been found guilty of corruption.
> full story from M&G here


I wonder if he'll be trading in mates for a lighter sentence?

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