# Social Category > General Chat Forum >  The case against Christian public holidays!

## Citizen X

“Now this looks like a job for me so everybody just follow me, cuz we need a little controversy... Attention Please" feel the tension soon, here's my 10 cents my 2 cents is free!” 
This is not a religious debate! The question on the continued existence of the Christian holidays Easter and Christmas respectively are now in the public interest. The Commission for the Promotion and Protection of the Rights of Cultural, Religious and Linguistic Communities (CRL) are inviting arguments in favour or objections against. Any member of the public may submit arguments in favour of these holidays or objections against the continued existence of these holidays. Arguments in favour or objections against may be sent to: Sipho Mantula: sipho@crlcommission.org.za and cc: chairperson@crlcommision.org.za and ceo@crlcommission.org.za
1. I am a Christian man, an evangelist at heart. I stand firmly AGAINST THE CHRISTIAN HOLIDAYS OF CHRISTMAS AND EASTER! These are nice holidays but they are certainly not holy days! I will submit my objections against these holidays!
2. Of the 7 billion on people on this planet, I’m at an immediate advantage in articulating my opinions and criticisms on any aspect to do with Christianity. My official public relations statement clarifies: I am the worst Christian on this planet, I have only committed a trillion and 1 sins to date. Of the Lord’s servants I’m the least important, a mere footnote on his official list. I’m part of the foolish, weak and lowly and despised things of this world. I don’t have a holy than thou attitude! Unless anyone can make similar statement then they simply don’t enjoy the sheer privilege I have in raising questions and leveling criticism at my fellow Christians, any Church whatsoever, any bible student whatsoever, and pastor whatsoever and any professor of theology whatsoever. As the under dog, as the one at the bottom of the most important Christian list I get to criticize those at the top of this ‘most important Christian list,’ My assertions on Christian public holidays are beyond reproach and not even a professor of theology will successfully be able to rebut anything I put forth. Think you can? Try me! One of my favorite hobbies and past times is extensive Bible Study! I don’t know the whole Bible but I’ve got the holy spirit to guide me and that is more than sufficient for any undertaking in His Majesties service!
1. Firstly as perhaps most importantly the basic tenet of Christianity is that you cannot force anyone to accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour, that person must come willingly and not by duress. It’s actually against my religion of Christianity to force my religion on anyone! Similarly, if it’s common cause that we cannot force Christianity on anyone then it only follows logically that you cannot enforce Christian holidays alternatively perceived holy days on anyone. On the birth of the Messiah, this is something we need to commemorate every single day and not one on day only! On the cross of Calvary, we need to remember it and it’s significant every single day!
I’ll get right to the essential gist of this matter:-
2. The ignorance of the Church from it’s inception: The Church always believed that the Earth was stationery and further that the Sun revolved around the Earth and further that the Earth was the center of the universe and further that all other planets revolved around the Sun. A dispute occurred in the 17th century: Galileo correctly asserted that the Earth revolved around the Sun and not the Sun revolved around the Earth.. He argued that the scriptures themselves were actually not wrong at all but that rather the interpretation of such scriptures was very wrong. The Church only officially corrected this misconception in 1992!!!!!In 1992 the Pope officially confirmed that the Earth was not stationary and further that it was the Earth which revolved around the Sun and not the Sun around the Earth. In 1992!!!! I need to say this again! Only in 1992!!!!
3. My simple but very effective hypothesis: If one is a mathematician that it follows logically that such a person knows a great deal about mathematics and further that such a person has a mathematics textbook and is very familiar with this mathematics textbook, similarly, if one is a Christian, then it should also follow logically that such a person knows a great deal about Christianity and further that such a person is very familiar about his primary book of instruction which is the Bible;
4. I’m still laying foundation! Bear with me! I will unpack the argument against the Christian holidays of Eater and Christmas so adequately that not even a professor of theology would has written a million books will successfully be able to find any fault whatsoever with my assertion!
5. I’ll start with common sense first before I proceed to the actual arguments! In the entire new testament Jesus Christ, the messiah did not even state once that his followers should create two new holy days or even holidays called Christmas and Easter, not even once!!! The apostle Paul, who wrote most of the new testament, did not say even once that his followers should create two new holy days or even holidays called Christmas and Easter, not even once!!! Both Jesus and the apostle Paul observed the Sabbath on Saturday starting from sunset Friday. Both never revoked the Sabbath of Saturday in favour of Sunday not even once in the entire new testament, not even once, not directly, not indirectly and not even tacitly or by necessary implication.
6. I am of the belief that Jesus Christ my Lord, my saviour my liege, my master, was indeed born. For me the fact of his birth is as clear as night follows day! The assertion that he was born on the 25 December is a lie from the pit of hell! He was born, but he was definitely not born on the 25 December. The Bible itself does not state that Jesus was born on the 25 December. In fact there is very strong circumstantial evidence in the Bible that indicates that He was not born on the 25 December. Was He born, Yes, without any doubt whatsoever! Was He born on 25 December, definitely not!
7. The 25 December was already recognised as some form of public holiday alternatively day of celebration in the Roman Empire since 500 BC! It’s very unlikely that Jesus Christ was born on 25 December. (Luke 2:7-8). Biblically we are acutely aware that the shepherds were taking care of their flocks at the time of the Birth of Jesus. In Israel in December it’s Winter and also rains in winter in Israel.. Simple common sense will tells you that no shepherd past and present will attend to sheep at night on a cold Winter’s nigh when it’s raining! In any event there’s be next to nothing to graze on in Winter. Common sense again tells you that as a shepherd, you don’t want your sheep to die, the idea is to have them healthy for slaughter or sheering for wool. A shepherd will actually ensure that his sheep are in some form of a sheltered enclosure in winter. He will feed them in this sheltered enclosure. Just as a test, our Winter in South Africa is very mild in comparison to the Winter in Israel, lets hire 20 sheep and get you to look after them in some veld, preferably the informal settlement in Lenasia from 18:00 to 5 the next morning for about 20 days. Let’s see if you and your sheep will survive.
8. The census that Jesus parents had to attend according to Roman Law(Luke 2:1-4). Let me tell you a little something about the Roman empire, they were meticulous administrators and they furthered their own interest. A census in the Roman empire had many purposes, it was not just for population counts, it was also to establish a register of tax payers! Throughout their history(go check), the Roman Empire never conducted a census in Winter as it was impractical and would actually defeat their own purpose of counting people and getting their details in the shortest possible time and getting those people to go back to go do their work and further the interests of the Roman Empire. 2000 years ago, there was no cars, we had no etolling, so the roads were in a very poor condition. People had to either walk or travel by donkey or horse. The temperatures in Israel at that time in Winter was below zero. It’s freezing cold today, here in lenasia when it 14 degrees, I can’t imagine myself walking in this cold for some 20 km! Imagine travelling by donkey when it’s -10 degrees for some 40 km! I refer you to our own South African Census 2011. You didn’t have to go to own town of birth as Jesus parents were obliged to do under Roman Law at that time. You had a census employee come to your door, this was between 10 - 31 October 2011.In South Africa Spring comes upon us in September, October and November. It was mid spring when we held our census. It was very warm during October 2011. Even our government as ignorant as they are would never had census workers conduct a census in July in mid Winter!
9. Seasons: In South Africa these are our seasons: Summer: December, January and February, Autumn(AKA fall overseas): March, April and May, Winter, June, July and August, Spring: September, October and November. So our census took place in mid Spring in October 2011. NOW. In Israel these are the seasons and their periods: Summer 21 June to 22 September, Autumn(or fall) 22 September to 21 December, Winter :21 December to 20 March and Spring 20 March to 20 June. So 25 December was and is Winter in Israel. Israel is situate 29°-33° north of the equator, and is therefore a subtropical region. Heavy snow usually falls in Israel between December and March.
10. Biblically the most accurate indication of when Jesus was actually born is in Autumn AKA fall in certain countries. The reasoning(luke1:24-36). Firstly, Mary is the earthy mother of Jesus and Elizabeth is the mother of John the Baptist. “24 After this his wife Elizabeth became pregnant and for five months remained in seclusion. 25 “The Lord has done this for me,” she said. “In these days he has shown his favor and taken away my disgrace among the people.”26 In the sixth month of Elizabeth’s pregnancy, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee, 27 to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin’s name was Mary. 28 The angel went to her and said, “Greetings, you who are highly favored! The Lord is with you.”29 Mary was greatly troubled at his words and wondered what kind of greeting this might be. 30 But the angel said to her, “Do not be afraid, Mary; you have found favor with God. 31 You will conceive and give birth to a son, and you are to call him Jesus. 32 He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High. The Lord God will give him the throne of his father David, 33 and he will reign over Jacob’s descendants forever; his kingdom will never end.” 34 “How will this be,” Mary asked the angel, “since I am a virgin?”35 The angel answered, “The Holy Spirit will come on you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. So the holy one to be born will be called[a] the Son of God. 36 Even Elizabeth your relative is going to have a child in her old age, and she who was said to be unable to conceive is in her sixth month.
*Continues..next post..word count restriction!*

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## Citizen X

Continued from previous post....
1. Okay, so we now know based on what the Bible says that John the Baptist mother Elizabeth was 6 months pregnant when Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit i.e when the angel Gabriel went to her and told Mary that essentially she will become pregnant despite Mary’s assertion to the angel that she was a virgin. Right, simple logical tells you that if you can establish when John the Baptist was born, you will at the very least be able to establish the season or time of year when Jesus was born give or take 2 weeks. John the Baptist father is none other than the Biblical Zacharias, the Bible clearly tells us that Zacharias was a priest. One must appreciate something very simple about the Jewish people. They has a calendar, they had predetermined holy days and religious practices, they were diligent in observing their holy days and carrying out there religious practices diligently and perhaps more importantly on time i.e. when it was the predetermined time for observance of a holy day or religious practice, they done just that, on arrival of that time, they observed that day or they carried out that prayer.(Okay, a bit off the point, just a bit, Isaiah prophesied crucifixion 700 years before the Romans invented it!!! Also, 700 years before the birth of John the Baptist, Isaiah prophesied his birth by writing “The voice of one crying in the wilderness: Prepare the way of the Lord; make his paths straight.”)..back to the point...In the book of Luke the Bible tells us that Zacharias was a priest serving under the priestly division of Abijah. Historical and Jewish religious calculations indicate that this burning of incense ‘when Zachariah’s division was on duty,’ was around June 14 to 20 of that particular year.In was on or about this period of his temple duties when the angel basically informed Zacharias that his wife Elizabeth who was Mary’s cousin would have a child, the angel further told him that he was to name his child John and ensure that this child never consumes alcohol. So this religious activity of burning incense and offering prayers in Israel by Zacharias who was a priest under the priestly instruction of Abijah takes place somewhere around 14 June. In Israel Spring is between 20 March to 20 June. So this prayer takes place in Spring in Israel. Also, the angel did not tell Zacharias that his wife Elizabeth is already pregnant but rather that “ Your wife will bear you a son and you are to give him the name Jon.”Luke 1: 13.” Now in Luke1:23 the Bible says, “ When his time of service was completed he returned home. After this his wife Elizabeth became pregnant.” His time of this kind of priestly service would have ended on or about 20 June(Still spring in Israel but the very end of Spring) : In Israel Summer is 21 June to 22 September. It’s therefore safe to say that John the Baptists conception occurred somewhere around the end of June(Summer in Israel). So we do the obvious we add nine months of pregnancy, namely Elizabeth’s pregnancy with John the Baptist. This brings us to the end of March. So John the Baptist was born on or about 30 March in Spring in Israel as Spring in Israel occurs between 20 March to 20 June. We know that there is a difference in age between John the Baptist and Jesus Christ by 6 months. Luke:26 In the sixth month of Elizabeth’s pregnancy, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee, 27 to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgin’s name was Mary.” So if you add 6 months to the end of march brings you to the end of September when Jesus Christ was most likely born. In Israel Autumn(or fall) is 22 September to 21 December. So the season that Jesus Christ was most likely born in was Autumn or as it is known overseas Fall in September but definitely not on 25 December!!!!!!!





2. Some background to the Zacharias connection: “King David (1 Chr 28:11-13) divided the sons of Aaron into 24 "courses" or groups (1 Chr24:1-4) to create an orderly schedule by which the Temple of the Lord could be staffed forthe year. Once these courses were established, lots were drawn to determine the sequence each group would serve in the Temple (1 Chr 24: 7-19). Each of the 24 courses of priests would begin and end their service on the Sabbath for a tour of duty of one week (2 Chr 23:8,1 Chr 9:25).The Jewish calendar begins in the Spring (Nisan), so the first course of priests (Jehoiarib)would serve for seven days. The second week would then fall to the family of Jedaiah. The third week would be the festival of Passover, when all priests would be present for service, sothe schedule would resume with the third course of priests (Harim) on the fourth week. By the tenth week, since both Passover and Shavu'ot had occurred, the 8th course of Abia (Abijah) would be called for temple service. By means of this arrangement, after the 24th course was completed, the cycle of courses would repeat, so that in a given year each groupof priests would serve in the Temple twice per year (in addition to the three major festivals).There are several reasons to believe that Yeshua was born during the Fall, in particular,during the festival of Sukkot. Among the reasons cited are as follows:1. Yeshua's cousin, John the Baptist, was conceived in mid Sivan (May/June) and born 40weeks later on Nisan 15, the Passover.a. John's father (Zacharias) was a Levite who was assigned to serve in the templeduring the course of "Abia," the 8th course of the year.(Luke 1:5, 1 Chr 24:10)b. Since the cycle of service began on the first Shabbat of Nisan but both Passover and Shavu'ot require all priestly courses to serve, the actual time the 8th course would serve would be during the 10th week of the year. This places Zacharias' service in the Temple as beginning on the second Sabbath of the month of Sivan(May/June). c. It is written that John was conceived shortly after this tour of duty(Luke 1:23-4). Therefore, John the Baptist was probably conceived shortly afterthe third Sabbath of the month of Sivan (i.e., late Sivan).d. Therefore John the Baptist was born around Passover (Nisan 15). (Recall that Yeshua said that John the Baptist was a type of Elijah the prophet(Matt 17:10-13, cp. Luke 1:17). Even today it is customary for Jews to set out a special cup of wine during the Passover Seder meal in anticipation of the arrival of Elijah for the festival.)2. Yeshua was conceived in late Kislev (Nov/Dec) and born 40 weeks later during Sukkot.a. Yeshua was conceived six months after John the Baptist (Luke 1:24-27, 36).Note that the "sixth" month refers to Elizabeth's pregnancy, _not_ the month of Elul (cp. Luke 1:36). b. Six months added to late Sivan is late Kislev, which is the time of the _conception_ of Yeshua (note that the first day of the Jewish festival of Chanukah, the Festival of Lights, is celebrated on the 25th day of Kislev, and Yeshua is called the Light of the world (John 8:12, 9:5, 12:46)). c. From the 15th day of Nisan (John's birthday), we add six months to arrive at the 15th day of the 7th month, Tishri - the first day of the festival of Sukkot. If the day of his birth were the first day of Sukkot, the day of his circumcision would be the eighth day, Shemini Atzeret/Sinchat Torah, which, like the first day, is a day of sacred assembly (Leviticus 23:39). On this day the Jews complete their annual cycle of Torah readings and start again from _Bereshit_ (Genesis). Simchat Torah is considered to be a time of "fulfillment" of the Torah.The circumcision of Yeshua at this time indicates how he had come to fulfill theLaw and the Prophets (Matt. 5:17-18).”

3. Constantine: For the first 300 years after the excruciating cross at Calvary there was no organised Church. It was largely an under ground movement because Christians were been severely persecuted even put to death! Now to illustrate, even in the 21th century Christians are persecuted in countries such as Chine. So they do what the early Christians done, they have an under ground movement. Now, if you want to learn a very important lesson in what the early Christians went through and I strongly encourage you to learn this lesson, it’s going to make you a better person1 Just please do me this little favour, go to China and see if you can celebrate easter or Christmas there! See if you can build a nice little nativity scene1 At the very least you’ll get a beating of your life1 And this will be a very good lesson because you will finally be able to appreciate what the early Christians faced! Back to the point, during this first 300 years of the Church there was no celebration or acknowledgement of both Easter and Christmas! Just try to prove me wrong, I dare you!
4. There were two periods to the early Christians, the apostolic period, when among others the Apostle Paul led the church and the post apostolic period, this was the period in which early Christians were severely persecuted and therefore there was no early church. The Roman persecutions of Christians ended with a man called Emperor Constantine in AD 313 and in AD 325 was made the official religion of Rome. Rome as at this time worshipped many different God’s and had many holy days that they observed!
5. On 17 February Ad 380 the Edict of Thessalonica was decreed, this was when God the father, son and holy spirit was officially acknowledged and accepted.
6. The etolling connection!!!! To understand Constantine as I understand him, you simply need to put your self in his position at that time which was a difficult position to be in. If etolling could cause such a public uproar, how much more would a situation where Constantine tells his people some 12 days which are public holidays on which you worship many, many, many other Gods will be taken away from you! You see it was bad enough that he made Christianity the official religion, but it would have caused public demonstrations if he took away the Romans existing holy days and holidays, so all he done was to change the name of the existing holidays into so called Christian holidays/holy days. There was no Biblical basis for Easter and Christmas, there will never be any Biblical basis for Easter and Christmas!!!!!
7. I can provide you with no less than 10 Roman holy days that coincided with 25 December but I’m just going to mention 1: The festival of Dies Invicti Solis, the Dayof the Invincible Sun, on December 25. This was when Romans worshiped the SUN not the SON. So they simply then said it was the day on which the birth of the son of God would be commentated.
8. Okay, to surmise, for the first 300 years after the crucifixion of Christ Christmas was not observed or celebrated anywhere! It most curtained was not observed or celebrated in Rome. In fact Christmas cannot even be traced back to the early teachings or regular practices of the early Christians for that first 300 years.
9. EASTER: I have tons to say on how Easter is not Biblical, how Easter was not observed at all by the early Christians and how Easter has no Biblical basis whatsoever. I’m going to save this for another post, because there are a few things I feel that I simply have to saying this post!
a. I believe in tithing , it’s Biblical, what I don’t believe in is many pastors unjustifiably enriching themselves and their immediate families from the Church offering! The message of many pastors remain, money, money and more money! Certain pastors will even incorporate the 6 keys to business success in a sermon, it goes something like this, there you have it church, that was key 1, now wait for it, it’s gonna be good, wait for it, key no 2 to a successful business is coming! Funny how Jesus never had a sermon entitled ‘the 6 keys to business success,’
b. There is only one requirement to becoming a Christian. It found in the book of Romans, it’s simple and very straightforward. If I use a military term, ‘draft,’ if you want to be drafted into the kingdom of God, if you want to become a Christian, it takes only few seconds to be drafted into the kingdom of God and become a bona fide Christian in the eyes of Jesus Christ. It’s simple, if you confess with your mouth and you believe in your heart that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and was raised from the dead you will be saved!!!You don’t need no church piano playing in the background, no church music, no pastor, no nothing, you simply have to accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and saviour and you will be saved!
c. The Bible does not say, God resists sinners, the Bible says, God resists the proud. In fact Jesus calls himself a ‘ friend of sinners,’ Biblically good people don’t go to heaven but believes do go to heaven. To be a believer you have to sincerely say that prayer found in the Book of Romans that you take you about 10 seconds to be officially conscripted and officially recognised by God!
d. There are many church services that I’m aware of that many pastors won’t have the guts to take part in! My favourite church service, ‘the stone you to death while you preach church service,’ Steven in the book of ACTS kept preaching until he was literally stoned to death. Another favourite service, the boil you in oil church service, okay, I’ll confess, the Bible does not indicate that the Apostle Paul was boiled in a large pot of oil but historians such as Josephus do give such indication. Invitation to certain pastors, care to take part in the boil you in hot oil church service???


Coming soon...valid reasons why Easter is not Biblical at all!!!

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## Phil Cooper

I reckon religious holidays should be allowed - to a point.

Christian holidays are actually only 2 - Good Friday and Christmas day.

Maybe the Christians can observe theirs, Muslims theirs, etc - up to a set number per year (I believe Jewish Holidays can total 8 - or more - which I think is unreasonable)?

Then, the Jews, Muslims (and others) will work on Christmas and Easter, covering the Christian Holidays, the Christians and Muslims cover the Jews, etc.

Then maybe SA won't close down from 16th December to early Jan every year, costing the economy a fortune!

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## AmithS

That is an interesting suggestion Phil, I never taught of it that way.  Sort of a compassionate leave system. Max 2 days per person and you chose which religious days would be most important for you to take the days off for!

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## wynn

Aah Vanesh I see you are losing your religion again (; ))

Lets have one long weekend per month on Mondays except for Good Friday, any other Friday that will suite other religions to be considered otherwise always a Monday.

That will bring the number of holidays down to 12 instead of 14.

That way fit appropriate holiday to appropriate religion or vice versa and everybody else gets a break once a month with the least economic upheavel.

The reason a Monday, a lot of people work on a Saturday so any public Friday holiday will result in absenteesim or people taking the Saturday as a holiday.

The reason 'Easter' is when it is is because it is the same time as the 'Jewish Passover' which probably supplanted some other ancient religeous or vestigial calendrical observation. Same as Constantine replaced the Winter Solstice with Christmas.

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## Citizen X

> Aah Vanesh I see you are losing your religion again (; ))
> The reason 'Easter' is when it is is because it is the same time as the 'Jewish Passover' which probably supplanted some other ancient religeous or vestigial calendrical observation. Same as Constantine replaced the Winter Solstice with Christmas.


On the contrary Wynn! This is not a religion, this is the life! Incidentally I have researching this very matter for the past 12 years. When it emerged in the public interest in the form of objections I simply had to revisit books that I already have and tons of ebooks!
My point of departure is a simple one:Do we want truth or a lie! Now, my primary point of departure remains the Bible itself. Jesus in John 4:23-24 provides that the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth. The Bible does not tell us even once to celebrate both Easter and Christmas. These are man made traditions. They cannot be reconciled with the Bible, with anything Jesus said and with anything the Apostle Paul said! Now, what Jesus says in Matthew 15: 6 -8 is quite damning! “ Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your traditions. You hypocrites! Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you” “ These people honour me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. They worship me in vain, their teachings are but rules taught by men.”  
The word Easter actually only appears once in the King James Bible. This is in Acts 12:4. All the most reputable and leading Biblical scholars have since corrected this. They provided substantial justification for this much needed correction(Too onerous to elaborate on here!). In short, Easter in the Acts 12: 4 in the King James Bible has it’s origins in the Grekk word ‘pascha,’ which translates as ‘passover.’ All modern and reputable translators have corrected this. If you refer to the NIV Bible Act 12: 4 mentions Passover.
Now, one must be aware that the Bible itself discourages religious debate, arguments about law and genealogies and it quite correctly states that this will only bring about division and strife. My Grip is actually with the Church itself. Instead of officially correcting these misconceptions and lies, they inadvertently promote it1 My official status as ‘the lowly and despised things of this world,’ puts me in a privileged position to take on Bible students, pastors, professors of theology and my fellow Christians with the intent of promoting the ‘truth,’ aspect of the ‘true’ worshiper that Jesus talks about.
Incidentally I proudly testify that the cross of Calvary did indeed take place, that Jesus Christ my Lord and Savior was indeed raised from the dead and further that Jesus Christ is the Son of God and was born as the messiah. I’ve never disputed this , I’ve always promoted it has historical truth!
We have the unfortunate situation where many Christians are of the opinion that Christianity is about going to church on a Sunday, celebrating Easter and Christmas and in fact this has nothing to do with Christianity. Praise and worship of our Lord. The Bible is very clear in the books of Hebrew, we must engage in continual praise and worship. Praise and worship for 30 minutes in church on Sunday don’t qualify as ‘continual praise and worship.’ I’m by no means suggesting that people should not go to church, they should.
On Easter and in particular the crucifixion as depicted in the movie ‘The passion of the Christ,’ It’s very misleading in that it does not give a holistic picture. It encourages Christians to feel sorry for Jesus and say things like ‘look how they murdered Jesus.’ This is not what really happened, Jesus was never murdered, Jesus himself said, that He willingly gave himself up for this very purpose and even sarcastically stated at times(in my own words) ‘Didn’t you read what the Bible said?, Didn’t you read what Moses and Isaiah and David said about what must happen to me?” He came to fulfill a prophesy and in doing so do us a great favour! For all those people who cry buckets of tears, feeling sorry for Jesus when they watch the passion of Christ, I proudly refer you to what Jesus himself said, (Luke 23: 27-29)after he was flogged and beaten and was literally carrying his cross on his way to be crucified. He said this to his mother and other women crying buckets of tears as they followed him: “ A large number of people followed him, including women, who mourned and wailed for him. Jesus turned as said to them, “ Daughters of Jerusalem, do not weep for me; weep for yourself and for your children.” Consequently, the Jews were striped of their citizenship in AD 70 and the Temple of Solomon was destroyed for the second time. They indeed had reason to weep for themselves and for they children. Jesus doesn’t want you to feel him sorry, in fact, He feels sorry for you! No Christian can take part in the passion of the Christ. That is why Jesus said, “it is finished!” It is finished means just that , that it done to completion. Jesus could not die with unforgiveness in his own heart, this is why he said, “Father FORGIVE them for they know not what they doing.” The sufferings of the Christ are a reason for us to rejoice, not to cry! Now, If you believe in a resurrected Christ, then why are you crying for what happened to the Christ before he was resurrected? That doesn’t make any sense whatsoever! Jesus came into this world especially for the cross, He proudly walked towards it, He was not afraid to die, He desired nothing more than to fulfill the prophesy! It was not unreasonable for those women to have cried, it was simply very unnecessary!
We have a current situation where we have the ‘popcorn Christian,’ they sing amazing grace ion Sunday in Church like they angels from heaven then they live like hell from Monday to Saturday! The people that should be in church, ‘the lost, the poor and the broken hearted,’ are not in church because the people in Church don’t want to sit next to them! Under the category of ‘the lost, the poor and the broken hearted,’ you have prostitutes, alcoholics, very poor people from informal settlements who haven’t bath in days simply because the 1 bucket of water they get from the water tank is used for drinking water, cooking and washing. They don’t have nice cloths (wear you Sunday best) simply because they can’t afford to buy nice clothes, the criminals etc. Jesus said, ‘I came for the lost, the poor and the broken hearted,’ it’s very noteworthy that it wasn’t prostitutes, poor people, alcoholics and criminals who were primarily accusing him. The Bible is very, very, very clear as to who was accusing him and who was persecuting him. The Bible calls them, ‘The chief priests and the Elders,!”
Loosing my religion: REM
“Life is bigger
It's bigger 
And you, you are not me
The lengths that I will go to
The distance in your eyes
Oh no, I've said too much
I set it up

That's me in the corner
That's me in the spotlight
Losing my religion
Trying to keep up with you
And I don't know if I can do it
Oh no I've said too much
I haven't said enough

I thought that I heard you laughing
I thought that I heard you sing
I think I thought I saw you try

Every whisper
Of every waking hour 
I'm choosing my confessions
Trying to keep an eye on you
Like a hurt lost and blinded fool
Oh no, I've said too much
I set it up

Consider this
The hint of the century
Consider this
The slip that brought me
To my knees failed
What if all these fantasies
Come flailing around
Now I've said too much

I thought that I heard you laughing
I thought that I heard you sing
I think I thought I saw you try

But that was just a dream
That was just a dream

That's me in the corner
That's me in the spotlight
Losing my religion
Trying to keep up with you
And I don't know if I can do it
Oh no I've said too much
I haven't said enough

I thought that I heard you laughing
I thought that I heard you sing
I think I thought I saw you try

But that was just a dream, try, cry, why, try
That was just a dream, just a dream, just a dream
Dream”

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## Citizen X

> I reckon religious holidays should be allowed - to a point.
> 
> Christian holidays are actually only 2 - Good Friday and Christmas day.
> 
> Maybe the Christians can observe theirs, Muslims theirs, etc - up to a set number per year (I believe Jewish Holidays can total 8 - or more - which I think is unreasonable)?
> 
> Then, the Jews, Muslims (and others) will work on Christmas and Easter, covering the Christian Holidays, the Christians and Muslims cover the Jews, etc.
> 
> Then maybe SA won't close down from 16th December to early Jan every year, costing the economy a fortune!


A very good afternoon to you Phil! You avoided a proliferation of the collateral issues and got staright to a possible way forward. We must have a respect for all people and for all religions! Religious freedom is a Constitutional right. You can even invent a new religion, if that's what you really want to do! It won't be practical to our economy to classify every religious holiday as a public holiday. This would mean that we would then have about 60 public holidays in a year. It's also wrong to preclude anyone from observing a holy day(or perceived holy day) for what ever reason they have. In fairness, add 3 days to everyone's mandatory 3 weeks leave. They then apply for leave for those days. My gripe is not with public holidays or holy days but simply that Christmas and Easter is not Biblical...

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## Citizen X

> That is an interesting suggestion Phil, I never taught of it that way. Sort of a compassionate leave system. Max 2 days per person and you chose which religious days would be most important for you to take the days off for!


I like the compassionate leave system parallel! That too is a way forward. People should not be deprived of their Constitutional right to religious freedom.I stand to be corrected but in your individual case, you have 2 primary religious holy days/festivals per years i.e. 2 days of Diwali/Dipawali?

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## tec0

Here is the one thing I don’t get. 

As a young boy growing up my dad had to always work on "Christmas" and "New Year" and he still does to this day. Now is the holiday a religious right? If you are overly sensitive about it, the answer will be YES or NO. But that is not the point at all. 

It is about family time… Yes every business every year cries when their staff goes on holiday and they feel it is there right to say no and force religion out the door. And they do! These people consumes 12 hours of there employees only because it is illegal to keep them at work for longer than 15 hours. Now this include weekends and public holidays. Thus you only see you family for less than 2 hours a day every day of your life! Is that fair? Well is it? 

It is always about the maximum hours and maximum profit. There is no longer time for humans to actually enjoy life. And this is the bottom line debate. It is about family. Right now at this very moment I can point to no less than 40 households where the elderly is left to care for the children and the parents must work like slaves just to keep the roof over their heads and food on the table.  

So what is the point? Companies wants to rule humanity and by forcing out religion and religious holidays they will come to a point where you will have less then 30min family time? In some countries this is already fact. 

Is this really what we want? Live and let live… leave things as they are! It is better than noting.

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Blurock (20-Jun-12)

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## Citizen X

> Here is the one thing I don’t get. 
> 
> As a young boy growing up my dad had to always work on "Christmas" and "New Year" and he still does to this day. Now is the holiday a religious right? If you are overly sensitive about it, the answer will be YES or NO. But that is not the point at all. 
> 
> It is about family time… Yes very business every year cries when their staff goes on holiday and they feel it is there right to say no and force religion out the door. And they do! These people consumes 12 hours of there employees only because it is illegal to keep them at work for longer than 15 hours. Now this include weekends and public holidays. Thus you only see you family for less than 2 hours a day every day of your life! Is that fair? Well is it? 
> 
> It is always about the maximum hours and maximum profit. There is no longer time for humans to actually enjoy life. And this is the bottom line debate. It is about family. Right now at this very moment I can point to no less than 40 households where the elderly is left to care for the children and the parents must work like slaves just to keep the roof over their heads and food on the table. 
> 
> So what is the point? Companies wants to rule humanity and by forcing out religion and religious holidays they will come to a point where you will have less then 30min family time? In some countries this is already fact. 
> ...


Tec0, you always bring an interesting perspective to the table! When I was in retail, I too had to work every Christmas. Despite my views on Christmas and Easter, my family doesn’t share my views. As such, we still have our pickled fish over Easter and we still have the usual Christmas lunch and family get together. I make it a point though, not to buy any new clothing for both these holidays, I also don't go to any church service during both these periods simply because I don't acknowledge them as Biblical holy days. There remains no Biblical basis or reconciliation for both Christmas and Easter. It's common cause that the early Church and Christians for some 300 years after the cross did not celebrate or observe Easter or Christmas whatsoever. It's a verifiable fact that there are endorsed holy days in the Bible which Jesus kept and observed diligently as well as the Apostle Paul as well as the early Church and Christians for the first 300 years after the cross. Man then decided by his own wisdom to invent Easter and Christmas which have no biblical basis whatsoever. We need to celebrate the birth of Christ every single day. We need to remember and pay homage to the cross of Calvary every single day. We need to worship in spirit and in truth as Jesus commanded us to do and there is simply no truth that Easter and Christmas are holy days. Biblically they not!




1.      The 3 wise men, or were they 3 wise men???? The Bible doesn’t say how many men there were, yet in every Christmas nativity scene, there you see 3 wise men!!!

Giving gifts at Christmas. These men gave Jesus the baby Jesus 3 gifts“gold, frankincense, and myrrh”(Matthew 2:1, 11)

2.      No one exchanged gifts when Jesus was born, so where does this concept of ‘giving,’ and giving presents during Christmas have Biblical basis. Gifts were given to Jesus, as he was a King, even as an infant, it was standard practice for visitors to a King to bring gifts. The queen of Sheba brought gifts when she came to visit King Solomon, and more contemporary, Cleopatra brought gifts when she came to see Julius Cesar. So this is the context in which gifts were presented to the ‘king of kings and the lord of lords,’ 

“Did the wise men, as nativity scenes often depict, arrive to find Jesus in a stable manger, there having been “no room in the inn”? (Luke 2:7). No. When the wise men arrived, apparently some time after Christ’s birth, Joseph’s family was residing in a house (Matthew 2:11). Did the writers of the four Gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John) consider Jesus’ birth to be one of the most significant events for Christians to acknowledge or celebrate? Mark and John do not even mention the event. Although Matthew and Luke do, neither gives the date. None of the biblical writers says anything about commemorating Christ’s birth. Did Jesus Christ tell us to celebrate His birth? No. He left explicit instructions regarding how His followers are to commemorate His death (1 Corinthians 11:23-26), but nothing about His birth.”

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## adrianh

I think that the holidays are terrible. It just messes with productivity. I think that everybody should stop moaning and get to work. They can drink beer over the weekends.

I also cannot for the life of me understand why people get so hung up about religion. To me it is simply a waste of mental energy to think that some deity actually bothers with us, the monkeys swinging around the concrete jungle. And to think that we are doing all this so that we can sit around and play harp for all eternity, I don't enjoy harp music for one and I don't like people who are unable to take responsibility for their own lives. 

Vanash, dude, I can't read all the stuff you wrote. My life is simply to short to get into debates whether one fairytale is better than another. Rather give me the real world, a world where I know that if I walk across a highway I will get killed, not because its God's will but because I'm stupid, a world where $h1t just happens, good $h1 and bad $h1t, a world where I understnad that humans are simply animals that are evolving and not some cockamamy special being that is the greatest achievement in all the universe. I'll tell you this much, if the human, with all its biological and mental design flaws is the greatest creation in the universe, then I don't give the universe much credit for creativity. Our eyes have blindspots and are easily fooled, we walk around with little bits that serve no purpose (the appendix), our brains are not wired up properly, sharing the same mechanisms for breathing and eating isn't too bright..we tend to choke quite easily and we can't quite control our emotions and our drives. To top it all off we are sometimes born with horrific birth defects.

Am I cynical, for sure, just as I don't believe that Alice in Wonderland went down a rabbit hole or that I've got little green gnomes with red hats living at the bottom of my garden, so don't I believe in fairytales that have been causing mass hysteria for many many years.

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## Citizen X

> I think that the holidays are terrible. It just messes with productivity. I think that everybody should stop moaning and get to work. They can drink beer over the weekends.
> 
> Vanash, dude, I can't read all the stuff you wrote. My life is simply to short to get into debates whether one fairytale is better than another. Rather give me the real world, a world where I know that if I walk across a highway I will get killed, not because its God's will but because I'm stupid, a world where $h1t just happens, good $h1 and bad $h1t, a world where I understnad that humans are simply animals that are evolving and not some cockamamy special being that is the greatest achievement in all the universe. I'll tell you this much, if the human, with all its biological and mental design flaws is the greatest creation in the universe, then I don't give the universe much credit for creativity. Our eyes have blindspots and are easily fooled, we walk around with little bits that serve no purpose (the appendix), our brains are not wired up properly, sharing the same mechanisms for breathing and eating isn't too bright..we tend to choke quite easily and we can't quite control our emotions and our drives. To top it all off we are sometimes born with horrific birth defects.
> 
> Am I cynical, for sure, just as I don't believe that Alice in Wonderland went down a rabbit hole or that I've got little green gnomes with red hats living at the bottom of my garden, so don't I believe in fairytales that have been causing mass hysteria for many many years.


Adrian, what Ive presented does far, notwithstanding the fact that it might make for onerous reading, is a mere footnote on the issue of the validity of Christmas and Easter as Christian holy days. This is a matter of South African public interest as the Commission for the Promotion and Protection of the Rights of Cultural, Religious and Linguistic Communities (CRL) are inviting arguments or objections. This gives me an opportunity that I never anticipated that I would justifiably have on TFSA i.e. engage in religious debate.1. I see so much ignorance in the Church in general and in particular in many Pastors and Bible school graduates. I never accept any opinion on Christianity unless it can be reconciled with the Bible itself;
2. To the untrained eye Karl Marx and religion have nothing in common, on the contrary. Karl Marx was against religion and so was Jesus!
3. I admire karl marx in so far as he could get straight to the point. Let me resolve as follows, in the LLB curriculum we have legal philosophy to contend with. Every psychology student has philosophy to contend with, the same applies to all BA students and students studying actual philosophy. Learning about when Plato was born and what he said will only get you so far in becoming an actual effective philosopher. In his thesis on Feuerbach, Karl Marx said that the philosophers have only interpreted the world in various ways. He asserted that the point however is to change the world. You see theres a difference between studying philosophy and philosophizing. What Im doing right now shows that difference, Im philosophizing as opposed to telling you when Plato was born, what he ate and what he said! The context, quite simple really, we cannot go on in ignorance that the Church has created. We need to change things to accomplish the worship in spirit and truth that Jesus advocated. Theres no Biblical truth that Christmas and Easter are Biblical holy days, they simply not and will never be!
4. Jesus demonstrated that religion literally kills! The religious law is perfect but man is not perfect and therefore can never abide by the law. Allow me to illustrate: Do you want to preach from Mount Sinai or Mount Zion? I prefer the latter!
5. Theres a difference between the 10 commandments which can rightfully be seen as Moses ministry of death and Jesus ministry of life;
6. The law, the 10 commandments the religion demands perfection but will never lift a finger to help you!
7. The religion, the 10 commandments actually kill! When God gave Moses the law on Mount Sinai on the first Pentecost, some 50 days from the Passover when the Lord delivered the Israelites from Egypt, 3000 people died(Exodus 32: 28); now in stark contrast when you preach from Mount Zion people live, they dont die! In Act 32: 28 on the day of Pentecost when Peter stood up to preach 3000 people were saved! This is actual forensic evidence of the resurrection. If you ever witnesses the wrath of an angry mob as I have witnessed in our informal settlement you will understand immediately!. In one incident, 2 residents of our informal settlement decided to steal the illegal electricity connection copper wire. The mob caught them and were not too please with their illegal electrical connections being stolen. These 2 gentleman had a bakkie. They had a simple choice, get out of the bakkie and get beaten, kicked and stoned to death or stay in the bakkie while the angry mob doused the bakkie with petrol and burned them to death, they chose to be burned to death. You see, we all can say a great many things but when faced with some 100 angry violent people, your attitude will change! This is actually what happened to Peter, he was faced with an angry mob, he feared for his life and he chose to deny the Christ 3 times, even swearing in expressing that he definitely was not with the Christ and in fact he dide not even know the Christ, yet a few days later, hes preached without fear for his life. On the day of Pentecost, he couldnt care the less whether he was attacked or not. You see something important happened between the time when he denied Jesus purely because he was terrified of the angry mob and the time when he preached boldly on the day of Pentecost. That something is that Jesus was raised from the dead and Peter saw him. That made the difference. Its noteworthy that instead of Jesus stipulating some stringent punishment for his discipline denying him, he done the opposite, the very first thing that Jesus done when he was resurrected was to tell those women who first seen him to inform Peter of his resurrection! He in fact told Peter that the Church will be built on him..
8. Jesus told the most religious priest that he encountered, *The prostitutes will get to heaven before you!*

But I don't wanna rule you!
I don't wanna fool you
I don't wanna school you
Things you - you might never know about!

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## adrianh

Nah, too much reading for me, I'm unable to mix fairytales and reality...I'll just stick to reality....

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## tec0

Then take it all away and dump it. Dear me how sad the world has become, that every person wants it their way and only their way. I just hope 2012 hits home and planet earth goes the way of the dodo.

Fact is this is the future of our children 15 hours a day living working having no life at all that is if they can find work that is. Screw it… If you don’t give people something to live for they have every reason not to respect life and every reason just to take life. 

That is the world you are breeding right now… And that will be the world you will leave behind… just a mess of pain anger?


me, I just hope I don’t live long enough to see. 

As I said in my first port this is not about religion it is about domination.

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## adrianh

Well, I live because I enjoy it. I don't need holidays to get away from my life and I don't need to live to go on holiday. If people don't enjoy their lives then they are most welcome to call it quits and hit the road. There are way too many people on the planet already. At least I don't live in a brain dominated by fairytales.

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## tec0

> Well, I live because I enjoy it. I don't need holidays to get away from my life and I don't need to live to go on holiday. If people don't enjoy their lives then they are most welcome to call it quits and hit the road. There are way too many people on the planet already. At least I don't live in a brain dominated by fairytales.


Dismissing something before the fact is like messing with the cookies before you put them in the oven. You don’t know the answer. I don’t know the answer and science is drawing a big blank on that particular subject. So really who knows?

For me a "holiday" is about spending time with the people you love because the day was made available to you. In a world that is pressed for time, this I think still holds meaning. That is my case and point. If want to take that freedom away then that is your problem.  

Just don’t make it mine  :Wink:

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## adrianh

Aye well, I am free to dismiss whatever I want, just as others are free to believe whaterver they want. What is wrong with my view, its my  choice, I don't believe that Alice went down the rabbit hole.

You see, I spend every day with the people I love, I don't need a special occasion to do so. I make the most of all the holidays, you'll be amazed how much beer you can drink over Christmas.

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wynn (20-Jun-12)

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## Blurock

I do not understand why we should tamper with Christian holidays such as Easter and Christmas. These days are celebrated all over the world in Christian countries. According to sensus stats the majority of South Africans are Christians. Or is this tampering by the non-Christians? 

Why not get rid of other days that nobody even knows what and why we are celebrating it. The 16th of December is such a day where only a handful of Voortrekkers committed to an oath. I have respect for that and support their observance of the day, but the rest of our population have no understanding of this. 

It does not matter to me whether Christmas is celebrated at the wrong time of the year. Just as it does not matter whether observing the Sabbath is on Saturday or Sunday. Let's be practical. God created the world in six days and on the seventh day he rested. He did not say which day it was. 

That is the problem I have with churches. They want to impose their teachings and their own form of religion on us. Don't try to be clever and analyse or institutionalise everything. The Bible shows us that God used simple people to spread his Word. All we need to do is follow the Word of God. :Wink:

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## Blurock

> I reckon religious holidays should be allowed - to a point.
> 
> Christian holidays are actually only 2 - Good Friday and Christmas day.
> 
> Maybe the Christians can observe theirs, Muslims theirs, etc - up to a set number per year (I believe Jewish Holidays can total 8 - or more - which I think is unreasonable)?
> 
> Then, the Jews, Muslims (and others) will work on Christmas and Easter, covering the Christian Holidays, the Christians and Muslims cover the Jews, etc.
> 
> Then maybe SA won't close down from 16th December to early Jan every year, costing the economy a fortune!


The corporate world already provide for compassionate leave so that people from different religions can observe their holy days. Ascension day was taken away some time ago, but Christians still have the opportunity to apply for leave if they wish. Jews, Muslims and Hindus are allowed to take 2 days leave p.a. for religious purposes. 

With regard to SA closing down from the 16th of December, that has to be addressed to the unions, not by taking away the holidays. Unfortunately (fortunately for some) summer is seen as holiday time. Europe is far worse and close down for 6 weeks! :Huh:

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## adrianh

@Blurock - you make a lot of sense.

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Blurock (20-Jun-12)

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## Dave A

Reading this made me think of a story I heard many years ago about a guard posted in a particular spot for a few hundred years (which I had understood was a true story). So I went searching for the details on Google.

I didn't find what I was expecting, but perhaps I found something even more poignant - always question the process by Steve Rowe.




> Let me recount a story from the television show Babylon 5.  In one episode there is the description of guard posted in the middle of an empty courtyard.  There is nothing there to protect.  When one of the characters, Londo, questions why, he finds that no one, not even the emperor, knows why.  After doing some research, Londo discovers that 200 years before, the emperor's daughter came by the spot at the end of winter.  The first flower of the spring was poking up through the snow.  Not wanting anyone to step on the flower, she posted a guard there.  She then forgot about the flower, the guard, and never countermanded her order.  Now, 200 years later, there was still a guard posted but with nothing to protect.  There had been nothing to protect for 200 years.
> 
> This demonstrates the unfortunate power of process.  It often takes on a life of its own.  Those creating the complex system of rules expect it to be followed.  Once written down though, people stop thinking about why it was done.  Instead, they only expect it to be carried out.  This often leads to situations where work is being done for the sake of process instead of the outcome.  It is from this situation that bureaucracy gets its sullied reputation (well, that and the seeming ineptitude of many bureaucrats).  Process can easily become inflexible.  This is especially true in the technology industry where process is embedded in the code of intranet sites and InfoPath forms.
> 
> I encourage you to constantly revisit your process.  Question it.  Why do you do things the way you do?  Is there still a reason for each step?  If you don't know, jettison that step.  Simplify.  You should have just enough process to get the job done, but no more.  Once again, I'll re-iterate.  You hire smart people.  You pay them to think.  Let them.
> 
> This isn't to say that all process is bad.  Having common ways of accomplishing common tasks is efficient.  If a process truly makes things more efficient, it should be kept.  If not, it should be killed.  What was at one time efficient probably isn't any more.  Be vigilant.


For the record, I suggest if we're going to have a commission to revisit religious public holidays, they may as well finish the job. Let them revisit *all* public holidays.

Maybe we *do* need a new plan - a "second transition" for public holidays as it were.

(In which case, I quite like Wynn's idea  :Smile:  And make it the Monday after payday when some staff don't pitch up anyway)

And in case you think I'm going soft, to my mind if someone wants to take a religious holiday that happens to fall on a normal working day, they're welcome to take it out of ordinary paid leave or unpaid leave. It's not compassionate leave, family responsibility leave, sick leave etc.

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## Citizen X

> I do not understand why we should tamper with Christian holidays such as Easter and Christmas. These days are celebrated all over the world in Christian countries. According to sensus stats the majority of South Africans are Christians. Or is this tampering by the non-Christians? 
> 
> It does not matter to me whether Christmas is celebrated at the wrong time of the year. Just as it does not matter whether observing the Sabbath is on Saturday or Sunday. Let's be practical. God created the world in six days and on the seventh day he rested. He did not say which day it was. 
> 
> That is the problem I have with churches. They want to impose their teachings and their own form of religion on us. Don't try to be clever and analyse or institutionalise everything. The Bible shows us that God used simple people to spread his Word. All we need to do is follow the Word of God.


Good evening Blurock,
1.      I do agree with certain aspects of your post but certainly not all. Let me elaborate. Just because people were engaging in a certain activity for centuries and all over the world does not make that activity valid. The Church for centuries asserted that the Earth was the centre of the universe, that it was stationery and did not move and that the Sun and all other planets revolved around the Earth and not that ther Earth revolved around the Sun! On the basis that this was accepted as the truth and norm did not make it valid reason for continuing in this misunderstanding simply because thats the way it always was. The Pope only officially corrected this lie in 1992! If it about holidays, thats a different story and Im willing to concede but its not just about holidays, the vast majority of Christians believe Easter and Christmas to be Biblically endorsed holy days. The Church in general have tacitly by way of omission contributed to this lie! In my experience, Ive noticed that during Easter and Christmas Christians actually believe that these are their Christian holy days when it never was, it isnt and it will never be Biblically based holy days;
2.      I reiterate that we must worship in spirit and truth as Jesus himself said we should do. There is no Biblical truth whatsoever that Christmas and Easter are Biblical holy days;
3.      The idea of celebrating the birth of Jesus Christ was actually always problematic especially to the early Christians and early Church especially in the first 300 years after the cross at Calvary. If you research this matter of celebrating the birth of a religious figure despite the number of textbook you consults, articles on the matter and tons of eBooks you will definitely find that the early Church and the early Christians especially those who actually spent time with Jesus and thereafter his disciples and the Apostle Paul and his many teachings perceived the idea of celebrating the birth of a religious teacher to be very peculiar and even blasphemous. You must put yourself into their position, they reasoned that to be born into this world was actually nothing to celebrate. What was important to them was leaving this world in death in a state(by virtue of conduct and sins and righteousness) that was acceptable and pleasing to God. So it was never about birth but rather about how you conducted yourself in your life!
4.      The Bible itself, the new testament tells us very clearly about who it was that attached significance to the celebration of a birth: These were pagans: The Romans observed the birthdays of the Caesars;
5.      Shepherds  In Jesus time Shepherds were regarded as such lowly and despised people that they were not even allowed to testify in court as it was taken for granted that their testimony would not be true! Yet, God chose Shepherds to witness the birth of the Christ

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## adrianh

How is it that each person who reads this book gets to read between the lines and come to their own conclusions (which incidentally seems to justify whatever they want it to at the time). What I don't get about this whole lot is that one would think that a manual for life would be clear and concise, not totally ambiguous and written by goat herders 2000 years ago. Howcome there is nothing about dinosuars, ice ages, science, technology, warfare, nuclear weapons, Flying Spaghetti Monsters etc. Ag nee ou broer, you can go around as many circles as you want, I think the entire exercise is a total waste of time. I am totally amazed at how much time people waste on arguing with one another about their special interpretation of their special fairy tale.

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## Blurock

@vanash. You are confirming that every church and religion interpret the Bible in their own way. This is exactly the problem. We create a god and religion to serve our own selfish needs. Many religious practices are man made and not biblical. Easter though has a deeper meaning and goes back to the Jews when they fled Egypt and Passover was instituted. This has a bearing on the coming of Jesus and now celebrates the fulfilment of the prophesy.

The celebration of Christmas, without all the tinsel and bright lights also has a place in re-affirming our dependence on God. It has a deeper meaning and although celebrated at the wrong time of the year, it is about our relationship with God. Not the church the state or man.

Lets not fall into the Devil's trap to argue about who is right or wrong. Lets accept the Word of God as told by shepherds, fishermen and simple working class people.

"Truly I tell you, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it. Luke 18.

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tec0 (20-Jun-12)

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## tec0

A well known comedian started disrespecting "religious" people and it is reported that he has a following on a social network. The thing is, he like most overestimate there importance and underestimate the people they are insulting thus you end up with a volatile situation. 

It is called "respect" and the moment it goes out of the window things will go wrong very quickly. See the boss is only the boss if people value there standing as an employee and as a individual. However if the boss disrespects the employees, he/she will be faced with many challenges and all of them will cost much more to fix. 

Fact is the employer gets 262 days of a year "give or take" and is asked to give up only 8 days of that estimated 262 days? Depending on religion and if the company has a policy on public holidays...

So is it really that unreasonable to ask that the holidays are to be left alone?

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## adrianh

"Respect" - What makes religion different from any other topic? Why should it be treated with kid gloves but anything else is open to debate? The bottom line is that people have different views and that it is up to the individual to decide how he/she reacts to comment or debate. I will never let anybody tell me that something is not open to debate and anyhow, if a person gets upset by the view of another person, then the problem lies with the one who gets upset. The fact that I bark at people walking down the road says a lot about me but nothing about their beliefs. No my friend, I teach my kids to defend themselves verbally because there will always be people with different ideas to them, and besides, as far as I am aware it is the duty of each religious person to educate the non-believer.

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## tec0

> "Respect" - What makes religion different from any other topic?


Nothing makes it different... 

You can debate anything respectfully? An example; I say this, you say that and then we agree to disagree and that is the end of it. Why must this be treated any differently? What this comedian did was wrong; he is using this topic to gain notoriety rather than to debate. It is his pedestal now. 

But I do agree with one thing if you are going to take one religion's holidays away then that MUST become the standard for ALL religions. If you are going to remove one religion's right to be open and public then the same must be true for all others.

Now how far will this go before it creates real friction? 

Will it stop with removing decorations? 
Will it stop with not allowing groups to pray over loud speakers? 
Will it stop by not allowing groups to wear their religious clothing in public? 

How much friction will this generate? 

Not to mention that marketing on year end is going to be a nightmare for almost any retail shop. 

How much money will businesses lose because of this?

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## wynn

I sometimes wonder how many people throughout history suffered unnecessarily because of this?

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## adrianh

@wynn - we're on the same wavelength.

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## Phil Cooper

I believe ANY form of organised religion should be banned.

Why? Simple.

Show me ANY religion that does not preach peace, love, brotherly love, forgiveness, etc.


If the above is true, why is it that so many wars have been fought, and people killed, over religion?

Christians and Jews fight Muslims, and vice versa.

Catholic Christians attached and killed Protestant Christians in N Ireland, and vice versa.

In Muslim faith you are not permitted to kill other Muslims. But Sunnis will kill Shiites, and vice versa.

Get rid of religion and the above disappear.

But I am sure something will rise in its place.  It is the nature of man!

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## adrianh

http://www.venganza.org/about/open-letter/

I want all The Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster holidays as well. We celebrate every day in the fervent hope that his Noodlyness cumeth in a saucer.

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wynn (22-Jun-12)

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## tec0

> http://www.venganza.org/about/open-letter/
> 
> I want all The Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster holidays as well. We celebrate every day in the fervent hope that his Noodlyness cumeth in a saucer.


Now this is just being provocative now… There is no logic here no respect just a pi$$ing competition. I am out… 

As far as I am concerned, a public holiday is just that "a public holiday."

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## adrianh

If you read the letter then you'll see that there are millions of us...we also want our day off...

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## tec0

> If you read the letter then you'll see that there are millions of us...we also want our day off...


In a way it missed the bar. Fact is atheist and theist debates are pointless because there worlds are so far apart. So now to proof a point both started to take up a political campaign and in the process they will most probably destroy each other. 

The debate is dead. Right now people are having a peeing contest and that is all it really is.

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## adrianh

You should respect my belief system otherwise you will be banned from having spaghetti with us pastafaria'rs.

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## Citizen X

*Rhetoric and dialogue can never be a bad thing!* The mere fact that we can deal with this contentious issue on TFSA is testament in and of itself to freedom of expression. *Everyone is entitled to their opinion*. Respect is of paramount importance. We need to address contentious issues. *This matter is now in the public interest.* The idea here is to use respectful discourse where we do express our individual opinions but also extend a courtesy of respect to everyone else’s opinions.
1.    *I don’t think that this discussion is exhausted*, yes, everyone is not sitting around the same camp fire on this issue, nothing wrong with that1 This will always be a thorny issue.
2.      All things considered, I have this to say: Religion is important, even brutal dictators who were atheist and oppressed every single religion that existed have acknowledged this. History is very clear on this!
3.      Joseph Stalin persecuted the Russian Orthodox Church to near extinction. However, realizes that for what ever reason religion can motivate people, Stalin legalized Christianity and other religions during world war 2. Stalin allowed the Church to be revived as a  patriotic organization, and thousands of churches were reactivated;
4.      In the 18th century  a noted atheist Voltaire set out to destroy Christianity. It was his intent to destroy Christianity  and replace Christianity with a diffusion of irreligion and atheism. Voltaire articulated that the Bible was nothing more than a short term book, a fairy tale of sorts. He forecasted with great confidence that within a 100 years there would be no Bibles left on Earth! Ironically, 50 years after he died, the Geneva Bible Society bought his house which by a quick of history had a printing press. They used Voltaire’s house and his printing press to produce thousands of Bibles! *200 years after the death of Voltaire he is forgotten and the Bible is produced in the millions, the Bible is also trusted by more people today than was ever the case! A strong case I think!*
5.      Even if people don’t want to testify about Jesus and Biblical events, that’s perfectly fine, as inanimate objects such as stones will then testify! The great pyramid of the Pharaoh Cheops can testify that this pyramid was already 1000 years old when Abraham passed by it to claim his inheritance in Canaan! When Joseph brought his sons and his father Jacob to Egypt they settled in the shadow of this very pyramid! These pyramids have witnessed the oppression of the Israelites and the exodus under Moses. These pyramids witnessed the infant Jesus in his flight from Herod!
6.      *Forever is relative to how long you will live, so if you live for another 80 years, then, this thread on TFSA will be resolved one way or another as when you take your last breath on this Earth you will know the truth one way or another*. You’ll know if you were right or if you were wrong in your opinions and inferences. So you will get your answers, just be patient. *When you die, you’ll know if what I had spoken was the truth or whether it was a lie!*
7.      *Biblically, God has given mankind* *seven annual festivals, or feasts, or holy days on which to worship and honor Him*. Jesus himself observed these days and so too did the Apostle Paul. These 7 holy days(not holidays) did not include Christmas and Easter. The Apostle Paul was an astute and articulate man. He could have simply said in one of his many letters or publics addresses something along the following linesLMy own words1) ‘Guys, we have now formed teh church, from this day forth you will celebrate Easter and Christmas, Easter and Christmas are new holy days and by the way the Sabbath is no longer on Saturday, just change it to Sunday. Please disregard the fact that Jesus, observed 7 holy days, observed the Sabbath. Please understand that he was tired on certain days and did not have the time to tell you to celebrate Christmas and Easter”

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## Citizen X

Quality decision: I have made a quality decision not to submit my objection to the (CRL), on the basis that what the next man or woman does or doesn’t do is none of my business! I’m not against public holidays. Christmas and Easter are nice HOLIDAYS but they are not holy days. They were never holy days, they are not holy days and they will never ever become holy days.
1.      Jesus was against religion. He demonstrated this on numerous occasions in the Bible. I’ll give you one example in my words, but you can refer to both the old and new testament for confirmation and assurance that I’m not taking things out of context and putting my own meaning into scripture!
2.      During Jesus ministry, every single Jewish person by virtue of what their religion said, knew how to deal with a disobedient son. Their religion was very clear on the steps to be taken. Their religion gave them specific methods in the old testament on how to deal with any disobedient son. You simply took this disobedient son to the outer gates of the city, beat the hell out of him and then stone him to death. No one could tell any Jewish person of that day about what religion said about a disobedient son,as they were very familiar with their religion!!!
3.      Jesus starts to tell them this story of this disobedient son. I’m confident that as soon as Jesus started speaking on this issue of a disobedient son, the sentiment must have been, ‘tell us something we don’t know), instead of confirming the religious requirement of stoning a disobedient son to death. Jesus say, despite the fact that this son squandered his inheritance and lived a terrible life drinking etc, his father took him back, gave him a ring, gave him sandals, the best robe that was available and ordered a celebration!!!! This was a huge departure from what the religious requirements were i.e. stone him to death!!!!!So there you have it, I’ve illustrated sufficiently how Jesus himself was against religion and not for religion!!!
4.      Certain ignorant pastors, Christians, bible school students and bible school graduates: I’ve often heard with disgust how the aforementioned describe the Biblical ‘tax collector,’ and attempt to create parallels with SARS. I’ve got news for you! The Jewish people were not against the concept of paying tax and they were not against tax collectors! Let’s put this in context: In Jesus time, Jerusalem was in essence a colony of Rome. All tax collected was sent to Rome for the benefit of Rome. This money was not used to maintain the infrastructures or better the lives of Jews in Jerusalem. Rome chose Jewish people an employees to basically collect tax for Rome on commission. This is what angered the Jewish people! The tax was going to Rome, the tax collector was Jewish and was making a commission on the tax he collected from his fellow Jewish people. This was why tax collectors were hated!
5.      It only takes a few seconds to become a bona fide Christian in the eyes of God. You don’t have to be born a Christian and you most certainly don’t need some special ceremony to make things official. This 1 requirement of becoming a Christian can be found in Romans 10:9-13. In short if you confess with your mouth and believe in your heart that Jesus Christ is the son of God and was raised from the dead, you will be saved. It’s as simple and clear as that!!!!
*This is my final post on this thread!*

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## Blurock

There appears to be a lot of ignorance and confusion about religion and religious holidays. I am not a preacher or the most knowledgeable about the Bible, but this is what I have learnt;

1. Jesus was not against religion - he was against the church leaders who practised their own twisted form of religion for their own benefit (which still happens to this day). Also why wars are fought in the name of religion? 

2. Jesus could not celebrate Christmas, as it only became a religious festival (to counter pagan festivals) long after his death. To Christians, Christmas has a deeper meaning that the tinsel and commercialisation that we have gotten used to. It is definitely not a holiday, so do not wish me happy holidays at Christmas time. I will be deeply offended!

3. The Passover was observed by Jesus (Remember the painting of the Last Supper?)
Easter is a continuation of Passover, a Jewish religious festival instituted by God. It also had a prophetical meaning and pointed to the promise of the Messiah. This prophesy was fulfilled when Jesus was crucified and is celebrated today as Easter and as Holy Communion.

If you want to read more about it;

1.	Exodus 34 (Whole Chapter) 
2.	Leviticus 23 (Whole Chapter) 
3.	Numbers 9,28,33 (Whole Chapter) 
4.	Numbers 33:2-4 (in Context)
5.	Deuteronomy 16:1-6 
6.	Joshua 5 (whole chapter) 
7.	2 Kings 23:20-24 (in Context) 
8.	2 Chronicles 30:1-6 
9.	2 Chronicles 35:18-20 
10.	Ezra 6:18-20 
11.	Ezekiel 45:20-22 
12.	Matthew 26 (Whole Chapter) The Last Supper  
13.	Mark 14 (Whole Chapter) The Last Supper 
14.	Luke 2:40-42 
15.	Luke 22  
16.	 John 2  
17.	John 2:22-24 (in Context) John 2 (Whole Chapter) 
18.	 John 4:44-46 
19.	John 6:3-5  
20.	John 11:54-56 
21.	John 12:1-3 
22.	John 13:1-3 
23.	John 18:27-29 
24.	John 18:38-40 
25.	John 19:13-15 
26.	Acts 12:3-5 
27.	1 Corinthians 5:6-8 
28.	Hebrews 11:27-29

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## Citizen X

> There appears to be a lot of ignorance and confusion about religion and religious holidays. I am not a preacher or the most knowledgeable about the Bible, but this is what I have learnt;
> 
> 1. Jesus was not against religion - he was against the church leaders who practised their own twisted form of religion for their own benefit (which still happens to this day). Also why wars are fought in the name of religion? 
> 
> 2. Jesus could not celebrate Christmas, as it only became a religious festival (to counter pagan festivals) long after his death. To Christians, Christmas has a deeper meaning that the tinsel and commercialisation that we have gotten used to. It is definitely not a holiday, so do not wish me happy holidays at Christmas time. I will be deeply offended!
> 
> 3. The Passover was observed by Jesus (Remember the painting of the Last Supper?)
> Easter is a continuation of Passover, a Jewish religious festival instituted by God. It also had a prophetical meaning and pointed to the promise of the Messiah. This prophesy was fulfilled when Jesus was crucified and is celebrated today as Easter and as Holy Communion.
> 
> ...


A very good evening to you Blurock!
Firstly, I respect all human beings regardless of their race, religion, political opinion, disability, sexual orientation, criminal past, income status etc
You bring an interesting perspective to the table! I respect your opinion! Im always interested in how people formulate their opinions, Im by no means suggesting that that the formulation of your opinion is flawed but merely that your opinion is evidence that Christianity is the most divide religion on this planet! We have countless number of denominations and schisms.
1. Okay, so I said that I would not make any additional posts to this thread. This post is evidence of my official status as part of the lowly and despised things of this world, you see as a proud member of this group, I can be hypocritical, I can criticize my fellow Christians, Bible school students, Bible School graduates, Church leaders and the Church in general. The lowly and despised things of this world, club is an exclusive club. It gives me carte blanche!
2. This matter of Christian holidays has caused me to revaluate my Christianity and realise that I must focus on my spiritual growth and engage on a life long exercise of correcting my many flaws. It made me realise that I am responsible for my own actions and not the actions or omissions of the next person. It made me realise that I should mind my own business. I am an evangelist at heart. I have heeded the call of the great commission to preach the gospel to whosoever will willingly listen. A very simple and very straight forward task! I just lead people to Christ, but I dont follow up on their lives or offer any form of guidance, advice, biblical explanations thereafter. Once Ive led someone to Christ, my work is done, I leave the rest to the church!
3. You have unwittingly earned yourself some blessings! The Bible is clear(in my own words). If you acknowledge Christ before others, the angels in heaven will acknowledge you! If you acknowledge Christ, which youve done several times merely by mentioning his name, He will then direct your part1
4. Pronouns are a very important part of speech, they avoid boring repetitions of nouns. The pronoun I, is a very personal pronoun indeed! In Matthew 16:18, Jesus clearly said, I Will build MY Church and the gates of hell will not prevail over it. He didnt say, Pastor Rich will build his Church! He is the driver of this process;
5. To be a member of the Church that Jesus found or formed to tacitly consent to being part of his kingdom presently and his kingdom to come, thy kingdom come, At present we just have one small problem, in this Kingdom, the King is not here so naturally Pastor Rich will do as he sees fit! So, they way I see it now, if certain pastors want to steal money from the church, its got nothing to do with me, if certain married pastors want to have sexual relationships with teenagers of the, its got nothing to do with me, If certain other pastors want to use the repairs and maintenance budget, of the church to renovate their mansions , it also has nothing to do with me and if certain pastors want to justify the wealth they have generated for themselves and their immediate families by misquoting scripting on sowing and reaping, thats also got nothing to do with me. In certain churches in the south, certain pastors glorify themselves to such a point that they advertise on an entire newspaper page, their picture takes most of this page! Certain other pastors and their wives are giving themselves titles such as Professor and Prophetess, self proclaimed. They want to be worshipped! So many Christians have the wrong perception of the Apostle Paul, they somehow, perceive him to be a nice choir boy, that made a pretty little flower for his teacher and helped old ladies! The Apostle Paul himself describes himself, by saying, I was a murderer in my time!!!!
6. But, just as they please! The King will come and set his kingdom in order. He wont be coming as a cute little cud able baby that you can hold and play peek-a-boo with, the Bible is very clear about this, Jesus will come as The King of Kings and every mouth will confess and every knee will bow!

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## Blurock

It now appears as if the aim is not to ban Christian holidays, but to get greater recognition for other religions. Christians make out about 80% of our population and Muslims and Hindus between 1% and 2% respectively. 

Although it is virtually impossible to accommodate each and every religious festival or holy day, I can understand that it may be difficult for say students to write exams on a day when they are supposed to pray or attend some religious practice. Schools and universities should therefore be specially observant of these days. Conversely we should not do away with religious practices just to accommodate a small number of students or workers. Ways should be found to accommodate those students/workers to observe their faith in their own way.

For as long as I can remember the Jewish community were relieving Christian hospital staff at Christmas as they do not observe the day themselves. In my previous job it was general practice to allow staff time off at Divali or Eid and for Christian staff to stand in for their colleagues.

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## Citizen X

* An opportunity such as this would not have occurred had it not been for this question of Christian public holidays emerging for public comment.* When I first joined TFSAM, TFSA members rightfully asserted that this is not a religious forum but rather a business forum. Its also a forum in which we can address matters which are in the public interest. So, there you have it, my ground of justification. 
*The problem statement is very simple*, What must I do with this Jesus? The prefect of Jerusalem Pontious Pilate first asked this very question in Matthew 27:22. My solution is very simple: You must merely accept Him and believe in Him! Nothing difficult there! Okay, to clarify, Im not asking you for any donation, tin food or blankets, but you yourself can go and distribute such items to whomsoever may be in need!
1. The problem with religion is that it wont always help you even if you do what it stipulates that you do! It may even cause you to be isolated and shunned! The law, the religion was very clear on leprosy, uncleanness caused by a bodily discharge and impurity resulting from contact with the dead. The law, the religion said, you must be sent away from that society, you must be secluded. So, if you were a woman and you had a continuance bleeding problem you were regarded as unclean and segregated, you most certainly could not come into the presence of a priest, temple and especially God! There was also a religious route to follow if you were a woman that suffered from this continual bleeding, you had to take a dove and a pigeon and perform such ritual before the priest and if you were healed you then sacrificed this dove and this pigeon. 
2. In Mathew 9: 20- 22, Mathew introduces us to this woman with some issue of bleeding, the Bible is clear, she had this problem for 12 years. She said, something along the lines of , if only I could touch his cloak I would be healed.* The reasonable inference, she tried everything else*, she done what the religion told her to do and she was no better, she had enough of religion. *In fact, according to religion, she was not even supposed to be there out in the open and certain not touching the Most High*, but there she was and she did touch his cloak and she was healed and guess what, The Most High did not forsake or shun her or put the religion to her, if religion was put to her and would have gone something like this, You foolish, ignorant, arrogant woman! Dont you know that the law says you must be secluded when when you have a discharge, and by the way that is just the monthly period, you have this horrible discharge for 12 years, you should be secluded, you are not even supposed to come in the presence of a an ordinary priest, yet you dare to come in the presence of the Most High, stone her to death!!!Thank goodness and God for Jesus!If she had followed her religion she would have died a miserable death in a few years because of the continual bleeding
3. *Im at liberty to say a great many things which many of my Christian brethren are precluded from saying because they dont have the privilege of my official status as the heathen, the lowly and despised things of this world,* this is an exclusive club, you dont get to join this club unless you really are the lowly and despised things , of this world! My official public relations statement clarifies: I am the worst Christian on this planet, I have only committed a trillion and 1 sins to date. Of the Lords servants Im the least important, a mere footnote on his official list. Im part of the foolish, weak and lowly and despised things of this world. I dont have a holy than thou attitude! Unless anyone can make similar statement then they simply dont enjoy the sheer privilege I have in raising questions and leveling criticism at my fellow Christians, any Church whatsoever, any bible student whatsoever, and pastor whatsoever and any professor of theology whatsoever. As the under dog, as the one at the bottom of the most important Christian list I get to criticize those at the top of this most important Christian list,
4. When I look at certain Christians(and only I as per my status aforementioned can really do so with good conscience) , I realise that if you take Christmas, Easter and Sunday church away from them, there is absolutely nothing left of their Christianity because the sum total of their Christianity is Christmas, easter and Sunday church. If you take Christmas, Easter and Sunday church away from somebody the lowly and despised likes of me, you take nothing from me at all! In fact, you give me more time to do the Lords work! You see, praise and worship is a daily labour of love, not a Sunday 1 hour burden, serving the Lord is a 24/7 job and paying homage to his birth and death are daily labour of love tasks. You can choose to fast and pray whenever to want to. A lot of Christian are surprised to hear that as a Christian you have a directive from the Lord, a simple one really, preach the gospel; Perhaps taking Christmas and Easter away from Christians will actually cause to buy some food and clothing for the poor instead of wasting huge amounts of money on clothing and food on so called holy or religious days which are not even endorsed in the Bible. 
5. *Becoming a Christian, you can embark in seconds, it really very simple:* You simply have to confess with your mouth and believe in your heart that Jesus Christ is the Lord, is the Son of God and was raised from the dead and you will be saved, I give you my word.
6. *I love and serve the Lord because I know what Hes done in my life, Im acutely aware of many horror stories He spared me from.* I cognisant about what hes doing in my life at present and I believe the good plan, purpose and mission He has for my life going forward. You see, I qualify as the prodical son, a trillion times over! The law, the religion, was very clear on how to deal with a prodical son, in short, you first beat the hell out of him and thereafter you and the rest of the community stone him to death and that was that! Now, here comes this Jesus says, NO, you dont do that! You give him another chance, you accept him, you forgive him and you also restore him! Incidentally, The Lord promises restoration for you in all areas of your life! Im not looking for any acceptance from anyone, Ive already been accepted foetstoots by the Lord! Im also not really looking for acceptance in a world that hates my God!
7. You see the religion, The law was very clear on how to deal with a prodical son, Deuteronomy 21:18-21 

"If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who does not obey his father and mother and will not listen to them when they discipline him, his father and mother shall take hold of him and bring him to the elders at the gate of his town. They shall say to the elders, "This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious. He will not obey us. He is a profligate and a drunkard." *Then all the men of his town shall stone him to death."*
8. *So, by this law, I should have rightfully being stoned to death only a trillion and 1 times, but JESUS(not me, JESUS), said no you dont! Luke reasons it rather quite effectively, He was lost but now he was found!*
*9.* If you simply must have religion, then the Bible does cater for you! *James 1:27*  *Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.* 
*10.* *Religion and law said that if you committed adultery, you must be stoned to death John 7*
And the scribes and Pharisees brought unto him a woman taken in adultery; and when they had set her in the midst, They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?
This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with _his_ finger wrote on the ground, _as though he heard them not_.
So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, *He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her.
*And again he stooped down, and wrote on the ground.
And they which heard _it_, being convicted by _their own_ conscience, went out one by one, beginning at the eldest, _even_ unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman standing in the midst.
When Jesus had lifted up himself, and saw none but the woman, he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?
She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, *Neither do I condemn thee*: go, and sin no more.


The single most important problem we have in the Christian community is that this is a kingdom but the King is not yet here, BUT, Ive got news for you, you greedy pastors enriching yourself and your family in the name of Jesus: The King is coming!!! *Thy kingdom come, thy will be done. So, the kingdom can never really be in order without its king! You dont need no pastor or church to pray for you, you can pray yourself! You can also fast! You should strive to learn the Word of God at every opportunity! Jesus, said, If you love me, you will obey my commands. If you really want religion, then let the very basis of your religion be what the Christ commanded, i.e. visiting and taking care of the sick, visiting prisoners and giving to the poor! And, as Jesus said when you give, dont let your left hand know what your right hand is doing. Dont try and get attention or praise for the good you do. There is a certain pastor somewhere in the south that loves himself so much, he has a weekly publication in the local newspaper with his photo in as large as you can fit into a newspaper. He has conferred on himself and his wife numerous degrees and doctorates overnight and without having ever studied or wrote a dissertation for an accredited university. There are people in his church who are unemployed and who are living in abject misery. He on the other hand has the mansion, the luxury car, the big bank balance all from the church offering by the way. Hes always boasting about what his church done, giving a school money etc. You know when I see his picture in the newspaper, I feel like vomiting on him. I think that when his picture appears again, I will vomit on him and take it to his church and publically present it to him while he is preaching!*

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## adrianh

...I still believe in The Flying Spaghetti Monster because we don't have to read between the lines and make up our own assumptions and tales about what he means and then go forth and rattle it all off to anybody who gets in earshot...
No Sir'ree, we just sit back, drink beer and eat Pizza, all day long...

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## Citizen X

> ...I still believe in The Flying Spaghetti Monster because we don't have to read between the lines and make up our own assumptions and tales about what he means and then go forth and rattle it all off to anybody who gets in earshot...
> No Sir'ree, we just sit back, drink beer and eat Pizza, all day long...


No matter how many fish in the sea, it will be so empty with AdrianH! Where were you? I missed you!
An opportunity like this comes once in a lifetime, so under the auspices of current public interest i.e. objections etc, I just happen to have many host issues which finds reference here!
Let’s take your comment as a starting point, now had you been one of the many in and around Jerusalem, the elders and chief priests would have been very angry with you for your comment! In fact, they would have advocated stoning you to death for blasphemy. You would have had a saving grace though, you see the elders and chief priests had their own axe to grind with Jesus. They were out to trap him in any way they could, so they may have frog marched you to Jesus and said something along the following lines, “Rabbi, the law says that we should stone Adrian to death for blasphemy, can we start? But Jesus, would have answered, ‘You who is without sin, let him cast the first stone!” Jesus, final words to you would have simply been “I don’t condemn you, you free to go, go and sin no more.”
You must appreciate I like Jesus, it’s nice to deal with him, he’s approachable. Now this wasn’t always the case, there was a time when God was very unapproachable. In Hebrews 8:12, God , a deity says, “For I will forgive their wickedness and will remember their sins no more." The immediate inference is that there was a time when He remembered your sins!
In Romans 8:1 The Bible stipulates : “Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus.”
1. The practical implication, you confess your sins, you don’t ask for forgiveness, you have already in one act at cavalry been forgiven for all your sins past, present and future. There is one other practical way that you really can ask for forgiveness every time you sin, you simply have to someone get hold of Jesus and lock him up in your cupboard, so then whenever you sin, you simply take him out of the cupboard, flog him, beat him and crucify him and thereby you forgiven for that individual sin on that day. You then put him back in your cupboard keeping him available for your next sin. When HE said , “IT IS FINISHED!”He meant nothing other;
2. DNA, we really do have the dna of Adam and Eve, you see when we sin we tend to hide away from God. Adam, who had seen God, walked and talked with God was trying to hide behind some bushes to avoid God from seeing him. I’ve got news for you, don’t run from God, run to Him. I commit some vile sin every now and then, I’ve since learned to boldly go to Jesus and confess and say ..look I f’d up!
3. The very same rebuke that Jesus directed at the chief priests and elders of his time can be equally directed at many church leaders. In short , they hypocrites! As a lowly and despised hopeless sinner, I can make such an allegation! I perceive many church leaders to be hypocrites, their God is money and their motivation is money! In Matthew 23 Jesus, said, 
“Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2 “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4 They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them. 
“Everything they do is done for people to see: They make their phylacterieswide and the tassels on their garments long; 6 they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues; 7 they love to be greeted with respect in the marketplaces and to be called ‘Rabbi’ by others. 
.“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to. 
15 “Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when you have succeeded, you make them twice as much a child of hell as you are.”

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## Blurock

It is not possible to ignore God. Faith is not about everything turning out OK; Faith is about being OK no matter how things turn out.

I would rather live my life as if there is a God, and die to find out there isn't, Than to live my life as if there isn't, and die to find out there is.

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## adrianh

@Vanash - The thing I don't get about religious people is why they waste so much energy babbling about their beliefs...I couldn't actually care less what they believe or what threats they make about the afterlife. I can't say that I read the stuff that you write because it would give me a headache...

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## Citizen X

The problem statement is very simple, What must I do with this Jesus? Pilate defined the problem statement for us! Matthew 27:22.
The Jesus thing: For me, its been a situation along the following lines, despite the vile, grotesque and downright sinful things Ive done, a stranger came to me, not me to him, and he said, Ive got a present for you! Heres a bag with 1 million rands, its yours, I dont want anything in return and goodbye, enjoy your money!
Similarly, what Jesus has done for me in my life is beyond expression in words! As at todays date by virtue of the vile, grotesque and sinful conduct Ive engaged in(the definition of sin being wide, I got caught making love to another mans wife!), I should not even be acceptable in His sight, *but I am!*
*Its really about personal preference.* That is, whether you prefer the back yard mechanic or the reputable car dealer. I personally prefer the backyard mechanic. To date, I prefer the services of my Black brother and sisters in the informal settlement in Lenasia i.e. plumber, tiler, mechanic, builder, electrician etc..
*Take the ship building industry for instance.* The Titanic and its ill fated voyage! It was initially meant to be name the titan, we know that a Titan is a formidable Greek God. They said it would never sink and not even God could sink it, but it sinked! It was built by Alexander Carlisle at todays price of 500 million US dollars! It required 15 000 workers. The length of its maiden voyage was some 5 days! Now, as it were, there was this other back yard ship builder called Noah. The architect of his ship was God himself. Noah and some 3 other helpers built this ship according to clear specifications given to them. The maiden voyage was some 370 days and there were no casualties, everyone on that ship survived. Naval experience will only get you so far, The captain of the Titanic boasted some 43 years of naval experience, Noah has 0!
This may apply to very few out there in cyber space, but if you are where I think you are, then you are exactly where the enemy who we call the devil wants you to be. Its actually his job to condemn you in your mind, to make you feel guilty to make you feel unworthy of God. You must appreciate that if he can get you to do this, then,he doesnt have to focus on you. 
_Satan_ is a Hebrew noun meaning adversarythe _enemy, opponent, antagonist, foe._ The verb forms of the noun mean to accuse, slander and be an adversary (_Anchor Bible Dictionary,_ Vol. 5, 1992, Satan, p. 985). The other term the Bible most often uses to describe this being, _devil,_ is similarly revealing. _Devil_ is translated from the Greek word _diabolos,_ the root from which we get the
word _diabolical,_ used to describe something wicked or sinister. _Diabolos_ means an accuser, a slanderer
I dont need or even want any donation, tin food or blankets from you! I encourage you to give such items to those in need. You see servant, means you do physical work. You physically take the time and effort to hand such items out to those in need, you physically go and visit prisoners, not because I say so, but because Jesus specifically instructed you to do so!

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## Dave A

> It’s really about personal preference.


I prefer the simple case against Christian public holidays (only) - it discriminates against other religions. Either they *all* get a look-in (which I'd argue is untenable) or none do.

 :Wink:

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## Citizen X

> I prefer the simple case against Christian public holidays (only) - it discriminates against other religions. Either they *all* get a look-in (which I'd argue is untenable) or none do.


A very good afternoon to you Dave! :Big Grin:  The simple case is realy just that, way to simple! This matter actually defies a short answer. I haven't even started with Easter as yet! The Easter debacle includes tons of valid arguments, don't know that I will have the energy to address Easter! Yes, in principle and in fairness, all human beings have a right to observe their religious holidays and even the right to create a new religion with new holy days and/or holidays. You surmise rather quite well when you say that all religions should ideally get their holy day/festival acknowledged as a public holiday and you go on further to conclude that this would be untenable. It will, according to my count, if we do include all religious days and even perceived religious days we looking at some 40 public holidays! The key party here is the major retailer and not actually the christian. The major retailer stands to loose big time if easter and christmas is scrapped....

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## Dave A

> The simple case is realy just that, way to simple!


Too simple, or is the short answer in truth too inconvenient?




> This matter actually defies a short answer.


It certainly does if you don't *like* the short answer  :Big Grin: 

I suspect much of the social complexity of this world stems from something similar. But then, it also keeps the world interesting  :Wink:

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## Citizen X

> Too simple, or is the short answer in truth too inconvenient?
> I suspect much of the social complexity of this world stems from something similar. But then, it also keeps the world interesting


A very good morning to you Dave! Constructive rhetoric and dialogue sure does keep this sometimes crazy world of our interesting! It pains me, that had I made these remarks a couple of centuries ago*, the church would have declared me a heretic and executed me!!!!*

*Brother VN, you dont seem to have brotherly Christian love in you brother VN. Oh really, why?? You just get to belong to the very prestigious club of lowly and despised, the heathen. You belong to this club by virtue of how youve conducted your life. So I qualify without any reservation, such reservation exists only in the minds of my detractors! You see you just happen upon this club of the weak, foolish and lowly and despised creature of this world. You really need to be low in status, in position and in income! Ive earned this status! BUT, brother VN, you judging, criticizing and condemning, surely thats not Biblical! Well, if you at the bottom of the pecking order and you not even on the Christian list let alone the most important Christian list, then you get this privilege by default!!!*

*You know I as VN am nothing by the standards of this world, a mere nobody. Im pleased with my nobody status, tell them nobody, shared the aforementioned with youIm not of noble birth, Im not influential and I was not even wise by human standards when I was called to service of His Majesty!*
*I'm like a head trip to listen to, cause I'm only givin you things you joke about with your friends inside your living room, The only difference is I got the balls to say it in front of y'all and I don't gotta be false or sugarcoated at all ,I just get on the mic and spit it.
**The jail bars could not hold me, force could not control me now, they tried to keep me down, but God took I around, YES, Ive been accused and wrongly abused now, but through the powers of The Most High, they got to turn me loose!*
*1. We usually have a situation where a member of an organisation brings that organisation in disrepute. My situation is wholly different; the church in general has brought me into disrepute!!! The list is exhaustive, but inter alia, by displaying ignorance regarding Christmas and Easter, Ignorance for many centuries about the fact that the earth is not the centre of the universe, and the sun and other planets most certainly dont revolve around the earth! More clod and clinical though is the fact that many so called pastors are peddling the Word for profit, the fact that the church is meant to be a sanctuary but history tells us that educated Christian priests raped thousands of men and boys who came to the church for refuge! There is this certain other religion, that I wont mention, where its members not priests, its members undertake to feed people quality food 2 times are here. I went to observe. They prepare 20- big pots of quality mutton biryani. This includes some 8 sheep, lots of rice and potatoes to name a few. The invitation is an open 1, anyone can attend and you dont even have to stay for the prayers that follow. Not only do you get a quality meal but you also encouraged to bring an empty container to take some food home. The poor live on this for about 5 days! In stark contrast, Ive attended certain reputable, churches where food was available, BUT, NOT FOR FREE! You had to pay, it was expensive and they even made a profit!(another merc coming your way pastor???);*
*Lord, its not easy!** Think it through, he who hide the wrong he did, surely did the wrong still! This world is da mix up, the mix up, mix up! Theres so much stumbling blocks in my way Lord, in this mix up, mix up, mix up! AND youve been talking your mouth full of lies! AND, LORD, they criticize!*


*2. I once encountered this christian lady, at an unnamed gym, she remarked to me that I dont look Christian, oh really, how does a Christian look??? Naturally, I felt like vomiting on her, in much the same way as Ive vomited on some chick in some club in the 80s in a drunken stupor; It dawned on me though that If I had vomited on her, it would have been the vomit of a sober man and not the much necessary quality vomit that only a very drunk man could create. Therein lied my problem, she required quality vomit and I would have been unable to generate that much deserved quality vomit that she in particular really needed very, very much. I apologise for not having been able to grant a good quality vomit on you episode. With the benefit of retrospect, Im deeply regretful! You really deserved some good old fashioned alcohol drenched vomit!!!!*

*3. The God particle, I dont know about the God Particle, but I am privy to the activities of the enemy who among other things just like your typical criminal can and has and will continue to manipulate evidence at the crime scene as it were. I dont know that an ape can become a man but I do question why this practice has suddenly stopped?*
*4.* *So no not God particle BUT God Effect, YES indeed!, You see there was this character in the middle of nowhere and God appeared to him(and no, there was no church choir, no church musical special effects to make the encounter more spiritual and holy as it were, by the way, you dont need no church music special effects and/or piano or choir to have a legitimate spiritual experience with God!). God instructed him to go and free his people from bondage in Egypt. Now, he put his reasonable concerns to God, it went something like this(my paraphrase), BUT, God, I dont have confidence, I dont know how to speak, in short, Im a mess, I messed up big time in my life, I even murdered someone and perhaps more importantly I cant really speak well. The response, something along these lines,  I have created the mouth and all aspects related to human speech and language including the very mechanisms in a man that emit sound, I will teach you what to say! It gets worse, Moses simply asks, basically if this stubborn ungrateful people whom you want me to lead out of slavery, who must I say sent me, who are you???  Tell THEM, I AM has sent you! Moses probably said to himself, Oh great, It was bad enough been in this bloody desert for 40 years and now I must go and tell my people I Am, has sent me! What???*
*5. To put things in even clearly context, you see, even as early as 3000 BC, all Jewish people, knew, that you dont go and use the words I Am, loosely simply because of that vital Moses/God interaction.Ive got some news for you! Jesus, did just that, what no one was supposed to do..Jesus said,*


*I am the resurrection and the life. (John 11:25, NIV)* 

*I am the light of the world. (John 8:12, NIV)* 
*I and my Father are one. (John 10:30, NIV)* 
*I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End. (Revelation 22:13, NIV) I am the way, the truth, and the life. (John 14:6, NIV)* 
*I am the only way to the Father [God]. (John 14:6)*
*My road is long But yes I know! Ive got to reach the end, Im weary and tired, but I cant stop to rest!*
*6.* *Yeah, I probably got a couple of screws up in my head loose.. Im cool with this, truth is, I dont really give a damn about what most pastors have to say, Im just trusting in the Lord, just trusting in the Lord. I just turn to my Bible and good old fashioned faith. I just appeal directly to God and dont go to another man to intervene on behalf of me, I dont need or want a middle man. I just let the Holy Spirit guide me into all truth and not rely on some pastor for some of the truth. The just shall live by faith,*
*7.* *I'm sick of him.Look at him, walkin around grabbin his you-know-what Flippin the you-know-who," "Yeah, but he's so cute though!"*
*8.* *You see therss either a God or theres no God, and if there is a God, and He just happens to be the God of my understanding then the Bible is clear,  If God be for you who can be against you, and further that He wants us to worship in spirit and truth, emphasize on TRUTH here! My point, if you just so happen to be a professor in theology or a bible school student or a bible school graduate or a pastor then Ill challenge you to live debate on public radio about Christmas and easter not been biblical at all and you know what, God will be for me and against you because Im speaking the truth and you speaking a big LIE!!!! You see I know Im not Cleva, I admit Im part of the foolish things of this world!*
*"Ah, wait, no way, you're kidding, he didn't just say what I think he did, did he?"*
*Yeah I did!!!!!*


*Some will hate you, pretend they love you now, then behind they try to eliminate you! BUT, who God bless, no one can curse, then God will pass the worse!*

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## adrianh

So Vanash, tell me more about your understanding of what the God Particle is that people are talking about? I'm very keen to hear your views on it?
I'm also keen to hear about these enemies that you are privy to - tell me more?

You should watch some (no...all) of Pat Condell's talks on Youtube - now he is a visionary. His latest talk is especially good.

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## Citizen X

There is a largely imaginative speculation with regards to the observance of Easter, alternatively it’s validity as a bona fide Biblical based holy day and/or holiday alternatively it’s actual origin. The early Church, for the first 300 years of its inception did not observe or commemorate Easter as we know it today whatsoever!!!
If it was so important and necessary then surely the Apostle Paul would have addressed its significance in at least one of his letters to the early church. The Apostle Peter having seen a resurrected Christ, to such a point where just a few days before he sees a resurrected Christ he vehemently denied his association with the Christ, and then thereafter doesn’t care if he lives or dies, he preaches the gospel with conviction. Now, surely, since the resurrection did indeed take place and the crucifixion transpired without any doubt in my mind and according to my belief, then why didn’t the Apostle Peter address this issue on the day of Pentecost? He could have simply added to what he already testified to i.e. The Christ was crucified and the Christ was resurrected so from this day forth you now observe Easter!!!


*1.* “ Preacher man, don't tell me, Heaven is under the earth.
I know you don't know what life is really worth.It's not all that glitters is gold;
'Alf the story has never been told: So now you see the light, eh!
Stand up for your rights. Come on!
Most people think, Great God will come from the skies,
Take away everything*, And make everybody feel high.*
*But if you know what life is worth..you’ll stand up for your rights.”*

2. *“A tisk-it a task-it, I'll go tit for tat with anybody who's talking this shit, that shit..”* Oh brother *VN, we now convinced that there’s no Christian love in you!* Oh really, what exactly is Christian love, educated priests with degrees in theology and in certain cases even doctorates raping men and boys who turn to the church for refuge and for sanctuary! No, this type of Christian love, of which there are thousands of reported cases worldwide is not the type of Christian love I’ll demonstrate to someone who approaches me in emotional, financial and physical dire straits!
3. Easter eggs have nothing to do with the record of the Christ
4. The observance or celebration of Easter predate the Christ’s birth. This period of Easter was dedicated to ancient day spring celebrations paying homage to the goddess of spring and fertility. Now, in 2 Kings 23: 13, you may be surprised to find that the Bible actually refers to this Goddess as “Ashtoreth the abomination of the Sidonians”

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## adrianh

So Vanash, I take it that Alice really went down the rabbit hole?

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## vieome

I heard about the GOD particle but I am sure nothing will come of it, just going to be something that people are going to have to believe exists but never get to see it. On the question of religious holidays I agree christian holidays should not be forced on anyone, but I think all religious holidays should be forced apon the work force, give me all the Jewish Holidays allow me to observe and have the day off for Eid and all the rest. 


<Rant/> Not to be taken seriously!
Why is it so that most of the world have the Christmas holiday? I think it more to do with the holy grail effect. I believe there in a Jesus, but I believe too that there was no miracle in feeding the five thousand, it was simple the creation of the Holy grail that fed the many. Jesus simple seen that with 5000 congregants if they put together what money they had on them that money will be enough to buy food for all, even those who attended and had no money on them(socialism). All the donations was collected in a basket(the holy grail).  They still have the holy grail in all churchs, the tool used for collecting donations, which remain tax free and no accounting for, not to the goverment not to church goers. Why the catholics built a whole city from the proceeds of their holy grail(basket for collecting cash in church).  Adams smiths classic invisable hand, take cash from the masses, give them Karl Marx religion opium for the masses, and we goverment will excercise keynes control. 

But yes please give us any holiday from working the jobs we hate to buy things we dont need. 
</Rant>

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## Citizen X

Vieome, I can tell that you are a learned individual. Adam Smith is the prophet if you will of capitalism. His 'wealth of nations,' is very light reading material compared to Marx's doctoral thesis and Das capital. Jesus was practical, here's the scenario, a poor man on his way home to the informal settlement passes by my home. I simply can hand him a tract or preach the gospel to him, but that is not going to solve his immediate problem, he's hungry! So where I can I'll offer such a person something to eat. I collect these empty butter containers for that very purpose and then I preach the gospel. You see, Jesus realised that those 5000 needed something practical before their spiritual needs could be met! I know of certain churches that will charge you for a plate of food! Not at cost price, but there's actually a profit motive involved. Since by my own admission I'm a 'lowly and despised thing of this world,' I get to take on these pastors!

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## Citizen X

> So Vanash, I take it that Alice really went down the rabbit hole?


A very good afternoon to you Adrian!
I must admit, I enjoy our interaction, it makes for interesting insight in difference of opinion or simply where one is coming from really!
You raise a very good question! I don’t have an intelligent answer! Notwithstanding this, I take the ‘beat around the bush’ approach. My first tertiary education encounter was in 1992. It was here that much of the techniques, tools and method really of inference and drawing conclusions were first anchored in me. Back then it was a very rudimentary approach to logic. A prof, had impressed upon me, in his thesis the following: “Alice asked the cat, which direction should I take? The cat replied, That would depend on where you want to go!”
Where do we eventually want to go? Does it matter? Do we care? Will it really make a difference?
I reckon we all free agents, we all have freedom of choice, you can actually decide that you want to specifically go to hell but I sincerely don’t advise that, you won’t like it there!
You see I already have a ’commander in chief,’ the God of my understanding who is Jesus Christ! People are believing in mother earth when they should be believing in father God! I’ve learnt the following the very hard way: ‘ God can correct a little bad theology but not a bad heart.’ I had a rotten, little selfish, greedy, self seeking heart at one stage. But Jesus demonstrated that He can embark on a lifelong correction journey with you if only you let him, it’s no wonder that King David said, ‘Lord create in me a clean heart, Lord let your holy spirit live in me, cast me not away from your presence and I will be as white as snow.”

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## adrianh

I'll tell you this much, if I get to choose between spending eternity with a bunch of selfrightious babbling nitwits in heaven, or interesting open-minded people in hell then I'll be packing my braai tongs....

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## Citizen X

> I'll tell you this much, if I get to choose between spending eternity with a bunch of selfrightious babbling nitwits in heaven, or interesting open-minded people in hell then I'll be packing my braai tongs....


Adrian, Biblically good people don't go to heaven, believers do!!!! The Bible says, 'God resist the proud, not the sinner,' in the book of Mathhew, Jesus is the 'friend of the sinner,' in fact it was those very "bunch of selfrightious babbling nitwits" 'The chief priests and the elders,' who accused and persecuted Jesus. It was not the lowly despised, weak and foolish things of this world that acused him and persecuted him, in fact, they were His target audience, They listened to what He had to say and they included prostitutes, alcoholics and criminals to name a few. *'HE came for the 'lost, poor and broken hearted,' 
*

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## adrianh

> 'HE came for the 'lost, poor and broken hearted,'


So what happened to the people that roamed around the earth before Jesus came along - did they go to hell, or what about the Chinese during the time Jesus roamed around, did they go to hell. So I take it 99% of the KoiSan are now KFC because they didn't understand a word of what Jan Van Riebeek had to say.

Ou broer, Christianity doesn't cut it, it leaves way too may simple questions unanswered. You can quote as much as you want, you will never convince me that Tibetans are going to hell because they don't believe a particular fairy tale. you'll never convince me that the KoiSan who roamed the earth going about their business not bothering anybody are going to hell because they never learned to read a particular translation of a particualr selection of story books. So I take it the entire Korean nation is going to fry and so are most of the indians, Pakistani's and don't forget about the Jews, they will fry with Hitler and his cronies because they got the wrong fairytale book. Then of course there are those Christians that ran around slaughtering Moslems and burning witches at the stake.

Come come, my 13 year old daughter is bright enough to figure out that the story book simply isn't good enough. She is bright enough to figure out that Buddhists aren't bad people because theydon't read your book or that Moslems are gong to burn too.

My view is simple, we all are part of the entire universe, good is part of bad as love is part of hate....it all is what it is and life doesn't balance itself. You do the best you can with the hand that you are dealt and the you're gone lie a bubble bursting in the sunlight. The air in the bubble still exists and the sun still exists but the bubble holding the air in limbo has dissipated....

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## Dave A

> You raise a very good question! I don’t have an intelligent answer! Notwithstanding this, I take the ‘beat around the bush’ approach.


 :Rofl: 

Great to see this debate being conducted in good spirit.

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## Citizen X

> Great to see this debate being conducted in good spirit.


As it should always be conducted Dave, good spirit, peaceful rhetoric and dialogue and a profound respect for each other regardless of our religious diversity...I think the sentiment, is 'agree to disagree,'
A very good morning to you Adrian!
*Your opinion is perfectly acceptable as is any other opinion!* “Every man has a right to decide his own destiny!”
*I have a genuine profound respect for my Muslim and Jewish brothers and sisters* and we share certain fundamental doctrine. Yes, we do differ on other fundamental matters but that is where freedom of choice arises! So, yes, indeed,_ I respect and accept all people unconditionally regardless of any arbitrary or frivolous criteria! I do however assert my own Christian belief and would anyone of any other religion_. *The main problem and challenge today is* that we have public relations statements meant to foster good relations where those public relations statements are not really true i.e. “all religions teach the same things,’ simply not true, ‘there is only one God,’ also simply not true, in certain religions there are more than one deity!
*Now, here’s where it gets really compelling we can’t all be right! It’s either Zeus, the Greek God, is God or he isn’t!
*_My gripe is with the church in general_, as it is largely because of the church in general that we have this public relations nightmare! Many unbelievers are at a point in their lives where they truly searching for answers and a religion to follow, they will accordingly approach people from all religions for answers. As an evangelist I’m at an immediate disadvantage because of what the church has done in the past i.e. Christian love, as it were, during one of the crusades, *the knights marched into Jerusalem, locked many Jewish men, women and children in a synagogue and burnt that building down, as these people screamed in pain, they sang, ‘Christ we adore you,’* Biblically before Christ, the penance if you will for sin was a sacrificial lamb that was unblemished. *Now if you were the cheap, scaly character that I am*, as I would have chosen the cheapest lamb with foot and mouth disease just to save some bucs, my problem would arise when I presented such lamb to the priest for inspection before sacrifice, that animal had to be blemish free. My animal would not have been accepted! Now, as it were during the very passover when lambs were been selected for this very purpose, the Christ was inspected by pontious pilate and was found by pilate to be blemish free, this is the reason why we believe that the Christ was the ultimate sacrificial lamb!

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## adrianh

My bottom line opinion is this: any religion that considers itself to be the only true religion is inherintly flawed.

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## Blurock

> My bottom line opinion is this: any religion that considers itself to be the only true religion is inherintly flawed.


The problem with religion is not God, it is man. Everyone wants to see God in his own image, whereas we should live in the image of God, as we were created. 

If religion does not suit us, we find a new religion or we make new rules to accommodate our own views. It is common knowledge and a known fact that the Jews, Christians and Muslims pray to the same God. Why then can we not live as Children of God, but in stead fight each other to defend our own selfish views.

The Bible and the story of Christ is not a fairy tale. There is enough evidence and proof supported by archaeological finds and historical records. What we need to understand is that history is recorded by people who often have their own interpretation of events. By collecting all the evidence and then coming to a conclusion, one can not deny the Greatness of God, by who's grace we live on this earth.


I believe in the sun, even though it isnt shining,
I believe in love, even when Im alone.
I believe in God, even when He is silent. Unknown

"Faith is not about everything turning out OK; Faith is about being OK no matter how things turn out."

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Citizen X (28-Jul-12)

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## adrianh

*Life is about being OK no matter what cards you are dealt....*

This has nothing to do with religion...It is a simple matter of not asking "WHY"

Religion doesn't seem to have any other purpose that to make people feel ok about their insignificance in the greater scheme of things, to feel better about the terrbile things that they have already done and to justify the terrible things that thay are going to do.

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## adrianh

@Vanash - you haven't addressed our concerns with Christianity. My daughter wants to know the following (I said that she should read your answers because you seem to know about these things)

Are the KoiSan, the Chinese , the Tibetans and the Koreans that didn't get to hear about the bible around 1000 AD (and any other time for that matter) gonna fry then? 

What about the Moslem, Buddist, Jewish, Follower of The Church of the Flying Spagetti Monster childen that grows up not being exposed to any other religion - are they going to fry too?

She needs to know whether 99999 out of 100000 that ever lived where just created to waste the earth's resources and become KFC considering that they didn't get to hear about a number of stories that circulated around a tribe of 40,000 people living in a desert in the middle of nowhere.

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## Citizen X

> @Vanash - you haven't addressed our concerns with Christianity. My daughter wants to know the following (I said that she should read your answers because you seem to know about these things)
> 
> Are the KoiSan, the Chinese , the Tibetans and the Koreans that didn't get to hear about the bible around 1000 AD (and any other time for that matter) gonna fry then? 
> 
> What about the Moslem, Buddist, Jewish, Follower of The Church of the Flying Spagetti Monster childen that grows up not being exposed to any other religion - are they going to fry too?
> 
> She needs to know whether 99999 out of 100000 that ever lived where just created to waste the earth's resources and become KFC considering that they didn't get to hear about a number of stories that circulated around a tribe of 40,000 people living in a desert in the middle of nowhere.


A very good afternoon to you Adrian!
Adrian, I most certainly don’t have all the answers here! I’m just acutely aware of the fact that I had a spiritual experience in my life, that Jesus did touch my heart as opposed to touching only my mind, that He did restore me body, mind and spirit and even gave me a financial blessing when I was in a precarious financial position! I know that I chose to believe in Him, that I believe that He has a plan, purpose and mission for me. When I was called to be a Christian I was not even ‘wise by human standards, I was ‘not of noble birth,’ my parents (now retired had normal real jobs), my grandparents from my father’s side were very poor; my grandfather was a waiter and my grandmother a house wife; from my mother’s side, my grandfather was a builder (when I say builder, I don’t mean architect or foreman I mean the labourer, the brick layer. My Grand mother was intent on becoming a missionary and resolved to go to Bible School. She had 8 children when due to gross negligence by student doctors at the St Johns eye hospital of the time, she became completely blind in both eyes. I never seen her sad, depressed or discouraged even on one day. In fact when I was in matric, I needed a quite place to study for my exams and went to stay with my grandparents. My grandmother being blind insisted on cooking and doing my washing and she wouldn’t have it any other way. At that time , I was not saved and I believed in nothing!!! *One of my favourite songs at that time was ironically enough one that articulates very clearly what you said in these last few posts!*


“God is a concept by which we measure Our pain
I'll say it again God is a concept by which we measure Our pain 

I don't believe in magic
I don't believe in I-ching
*I don't believe in Bible*
I don't believe in tarot
I don't believe in Hitler
*I don't believe in Jesus*
I don't believe in Kennedy
I don't believe in Buddha
I don't believe in Mantra
I don't believe in Gita
I don't believe in Yoga
I don't believe in kings
I don't believe in Elvis
I don't believe in Zimmerman
*I don't believe in Beatles*
*I just believe in me
Yoko and me
And that's reality 
*
The dream is over
What can I say?
The dream is over
Yesterday
I was the Dreamweaver
But now I'm reborn
I was the Walrus
But now I'm John
And so dear friends
You'll just have to carry on
The dream is over.”

At this stage in my life, despite concerted efforts from both my grand parents who were evangelists for me to accept Christ and serve Him I actually refused!!! I turned to Jesus, my Jesus, when I had no one else in this world to turn to! My life had unravelled on a few occasions! I needed not just 1 but a few miracles. According to human logic and experience, their was no real way out of my predicament for me, but HE, Jesus, He took me, He accepted me, He looked after me, He provided for me, He made a way for me where there was no real way out!!!!
Your daughter, raises a very compelling and valid question, one that really made me think about it myself. I’m a kingdom amateur, a nobody in this world, not even a footnote on the most important Christian list. I was not ‘influential,’ when I was called, I was a nobody then, I remain a nobody today! I am part of the ‘weak, foolish and lowly and despised things of this world,’ but I had a God experience that transformed my life!
*This is my layman’s answer to your daughter,* if a president, a mere man can give a presidential pardon to prisoners *then how much more so can HIS Majesty, a KING.* Let me resolve it as follows: when Jesus was on the cross there were two condemned criminals on his left and right, they both done wrong and they both knew it! I would have probably been the one, who had done so much wrong that I myself had found my way to that cross, I would have known that there was this Jesus walking and talking and preaching but while He was doing all this, I just came for the free meal, and left to commit whatever heinous crime I had intended for that day. I was caught by the police, judged and sentenced to death for what I had done, coincidentally I would have been crucified with the Christ, not to share in his passion, not to fulfil any prophecy but rather because I deserved it. At the very last minute, I would have somehow because of fear or because of hope asked him to forgive me and to accept me.
*A lot of Christians don’t know this, but during the period which they choose to celebrate or observe Easter, Jesus the Christ, the messiah, after His crucifixion went into the depths of hell to preach the good news or gospel to people now spirits who were disobedient from the days of Noah!* “ He was put to death in the body but made alive by the Spirit, through whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison who disobeyed long ago when God waited patiently in the days of Noah while the ark ws being built.” 1 Peter 3 : 19
*So, whilst this may not answer the question directly*, it’s really the best that I’m able to do as a Kingdom amateur. Perhaps certain celebrity pastors with many private jets, mansions and big bank accounts can provide more appropriate answer. *I remain proudly a nobody!!!*
So, if the Greek God Zeus is really God, then we in trouble, you see Zeus could get angry at a whims notice, he was unpredictable and you never really knew where you stood with him, when he would get angry, what would anger him or please him. With Jesus, I where I stand!!! *In the final analysis God loves all human beings!*

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## Blurock

> @Vanash - you haven't addressed our concerns with Christianity. My daughter wants to know the following (I said that she should read your answers because you seem to know about these things)
> 
> Are the KoiSan, the Chinese , the Tibetans and the Koreans that didn't get to hear about the bible around 1000 AD (and any other time for that matter) gonna fry then? 
> 
> What about the Moslem, Buddist, Jewish, Follower of The Church of the Flying Spagetti Monster childen that grows up not being exposed to any other religion - are they going to fry too?
> 
> She needs to know whether 99999 out of 100000 that ever lived where just created to waste the earth's resources and become KFC considering that they didn't get to hear about a number of stories that circulated around a tribe of 40,000 people living in a desert in the middle of nowhere.


Christians who have studied the San people of Namibia have come to the conclusion that the San live closer to the Biblical principles than Westerners do. They respect nature and they respect other people. Their "ecological footprint" on earth is also very small, so they have very little negative impact on earth. I am not sure of the text, but the Bible tells us that those who live by the law, will be saved by the law. Under that I understand the laws of nature, which are also the laws of God. 

The Old Testament contains many laws and rules, the most famous being the Ten Commandments. But Jesus said that all of those rules boiled down to two things: love God with all your heart, and love your neighbor as yourself. If our adherence to rules or commandments isn't producing these two things, we've missed the entire point. 

In Romans, Paul writes of the law that was given to the Hebrew people through Moses. He argues in Romans that before Jesus it was through the law alone that we could find righteousness. Now that Jesus has come we can find righteousness in him not just in the law.It is however, not about Biblical laws, but its about a lifestyle that God wants us to follow.

All this said, just listening to people will not save you. We with our flawed interpretation of God can not teach you. We hope that we can guide you to God, but in the end, you have to find your own Saviour. Read and study the Bible and other religious books. Seek God and God will find you.

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## adrianh

Ok great, but are those other people going to heaven or hell?

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## Citizen X

*Adrian, such advanced questions you simply have to reserve for those who deserve them*, the celebrity pastor, the self righteous Bible School graduate, the preacher boys, I ain’t neither! I’m at the very bottom of the list here….
*Only a true ‘scattering of Africa,’ will appreciate what I’m saying here*, the only time you’ll realise that Jesus is all you need is when Jesus is all you have! I turned to HIM only because I really had no one else to turn to! In my childlike manner I conducted a childlike introspection, ‘will HE chase me away if I approach Him, will He condemn me, Will He really help me, restore and deliver me if I go to Him sincerely. I can attest to the fact that he won’t chase you away, He won’t condemn you, He will deliver and restore you! So if you are a bona fide scatteling of Africa, a fugitive seeking refuge on some cold and dark night, He will ‘never leave you nor forsake you,’ and you don’t need no damn pastor to tell you this! The Lord himself will minister to you when pastors and churches forsake you he said, ‘*I will build MY church and the gates of hell won’t prevail over it!” The king is not yet here, so certain pastors will do as they like, but I got some news for you, if you are a greedy pastor peddling the Word for profit! The king is coming, “Hy com Ja!” ‘Thy kingdom come, thy will be done!”*



“Copper sun sinking low
Scatterlings and fugitives
Hooded eyes and weary brows
Seek refuge in the night


*They are the scatterlings of Africa
Each uprooted one
*On the road to Phelamanga
where the world began
*And I love the scatterlings of Africa
Each and every one
In their hearts a burning hunger
Beneath the copper sun
*
Broken wall, bicycle wheel
African sun forging steel, singing
*Magic machine cannot match your mind
being human being
African idea -- make the future clear.”

*

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## Blurock

> Ok great, but are those other people going to heaven or hell?


It is not for us to decide. Some people may tell you no, other may say yes. Even Christians differ amongst themselves. Sunni and Shi'ite Muslims kill each other because of their respective interpretation of the law. 

Let yourself be guided by God. Seek Him out, and all will become clear to you. Do not let yourself be fooled by false prophets who have only their own selfish interests at heart.

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## Citizen X

> Christians who have studied the San people of Namibia have come to the conclusion that the San live closer to the Biblical principles than Westerners do. They respect nature and they respect other people. Their "ecological footprint" on earth is also very small, so they have very little negative impact on earth. I am not sure of the text, but the Bible tells us that those who live by the law, will be saved by the law. Under that I understand the laws of nature, which are also the laws of God. 
> 
> The Old Testament contains many laws and rules, the most famous being the Ten Commandments. But Jesus said that all of those rules boiled down to two things: love God with all your heart, and love your neighbor as yourself. If our adherence to rules or commandments isn't producing these two things, we've missed the entire point. 
> 
> In Romans, Paul writes of the law that was given to the Hebrew people through Moses. He argues in Romans that before Jesus it was through the law alone that we could find righteousness. Now that Jesus has come we can find righteousness in him not just in the law.It is however, not about Biblical laws, but its about a lifestyle that God wants us to follow.
> 
> All this said, just listening to people will not save you. We with our flawed interpretation of God can not teach you. We hope that we can guide you to God, but in the end, you have to find your own Saviour. Read and study the Bible and other religious books. Seek God and God will find you.


*Amen, Brother! So you Blurock actually understand very clearly what I say when I draw a parallel between the ministry of death, i.e. preaching from mount sinai and the ministry of life, preaching from mount zion.* He has written his laws on our hearts. Yes, those who lived under the law will be judged under the law, but the law is perfect and man is not perfect so I thank God for grace! It holds true each individual must engage in his own spiritual serach and make a call for his or her life! *That said, God does love all human beings!!
*

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## adrianh

@Vanash - I can't tell my daughter this nonsense. As soon as simple logical questions are asked the entire house of cards simply folds in on itself and swallows itself up in mumbo jumbo. It is a crocodile that eats itself and dissapears when you ask it to find its own tail.

This is exactly why religion is a waste of time. It is a closed loop of nonsense that supports nonsense by quoting other nonsense.

Religion is the only topic where one can get away with answering any question with a nosensical made up answer. I'm sure glad that we don't build bridges this way, I can just imagine the conversation: 
"So Tim, you are the engineer, will the bridge stand up to a magnitude 5 earthquake?".
"Well John, you see, it says in the great book that the first bridge was built from stone and it was cast upon the sea. Then came a great flood and the bridge withstood the flood. Then there was the great plague and locusts came and sat upon the bridge. But remember that the bridge will stand if you believe it will"
"Ok Tim, so should we shut down the bridge because of the impending storm?"
"Well you see John, you must have faith my brother, some will die and some will not, it is not for me to say whether the bridge will stand, I am only the vessel through which the bridge was built".

Ah, ok...

Come, come, the problem with religious circular arguments is that your argument eventually falls back to its natural state of "God will decide"...well then, if this is true then why bother with all the intermediate nonsense and simply say "I don't know, God will decide"

So, what is my bottom line again: Religion is a waste of time and effort because it falls flat on its face when confronted with simple logic.

@Vanash - give me a simple answer, no mumbo jumbo, spin doctoring doesn't cut it, anybody can use flowery language: Will they go to heaven or not?

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## Citizen X

No, Adrian,* my purpose is simple*: give hope, not take away away! Encourage, not discourage! Besides, as already mentioned ad nauseum, I'm just 'a small boy in the kingdom, i can't do anything,"* @vanash, "You just a small boy! You can't do anything, bloody agent! Come out, Come out, ba....., you've got rubbish in your trousers vanash!" So as the small boy in the kingdom, I'll leave those rather pertinent questions to my more esteemed bible school graduates!* I learnt to love the Word and to love the Lord becuase there was a time in my life when 'all the kings horses and men, ' wouldn't have been able to put me back again even if they used that quality super glue you buy on the side of the street, it was only the Most High that could restore me and give me a  renewed mind and purpose.....I'm a long way from home, what is natty doing so far from home? 'Natty dread in this babylon!" Many of us are familiar with the verse,'to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord, funny how they don't read the preceeding and far more compelling verse, 'to be present in this body is to be absent from the Lord!" This presence in my body is for me to be a real alien here, very far from home..'don't care what the world say, my brethern and i could never go astray, just like a bright and sunny day, my brethren and I are going to have things our way!"

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## adrianh

Eish...I don't take LSD so I am unfortunately unable to have psychedelic discussions....

...best I stick with reality then...

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## Dave A

> This is exactly why religion is a waste of time.


Certainly a pretty futile excercise arguing about it.

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## adrianh

@Dave - you are right. Ok, I'm done.

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## Citizen X

> So Vanash, tell me more about your understanding of what the God Particle is that people are talking about? I'm very keen to hear your views on it?
> I'm also keen to hear about these enemies that you are privy to - tell me more?
> 
> You should watch some (no...all) of Pat Condell's talks on Youtube - now he is a visionary. His latest talk is especially good.


Evolution postulates that a designed thing has designed itself. If I were to place an explosion in a printing press, a room which has several printing machines, ink and otrher such accessories for printing and publishing, would the result of that explosion be a finished product in the form of an English dictionary? Atheists are at the forefront of legitimizing abortion, euthanasia, drug use such as dagga, and prostitution! Christianity has always been at the forefront of helping people, the sick, orphans, widows, feeding the hungry, educating people, opposing slavery and child labour. 
The Roman emperor Diocletian had thought that he had destroyed every Bible, 25 years later Constantine ordered the production of 25 bibles at the expense of the state! The Bible does has scientific accuracy, The earth is round, ‘He sits enthroned above the circle of the earth,’ Isaiah 40 : 22; The Earth is suspended in space without support,’ He spreads out the northern skies over empty spaces, he suspends the earth over nothing Job 26:7; the stars are countless: ‘Look up at the heavens and count the stars, if indeed you can count them..’Genesis 15: 5
The enemy, very simple for me: The Bible calls him ‘satan,’ Just like any criminal he is capable of manipulating the scene of a crime for the lack of a better way to explain it, it can add evidence, he can destroy evidence i.e. fossils, the Bible calls him the ‘father of lies,’ The Genesis flood has changed carbon dating, it cannot be seen as accutrate.
A man once challenged Dr Ironside to a debate on agnosticism versus Christianity. Dr Ironside had 1 condition, basically first bring 1 man who had been a criminal, hobo, drug addict or alcoholic and 1 woman who had been a prostitute and prove that both these people had been restored from their former lives through embracing the philosophy of agnosticism. This man could not even find 1 such man or 1 such woman, Dr Ironside however brought 100’s who proudly testified how Christ had transformed their lives. Despite the many faults of the Church, I know that many churches have taken in drug addicts, alcoholics, convicts, hobos, prostitutes, and homeless people and transformed their lives for the better!

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Blurock (29-Jul-12)

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## Citizen X

> Certainly a pretty futile excercise arguing about it.


It certainly is a futile and senseless task in so far as once you've been indoctrinated in your belief system you unlikely to change! That said, it's still an opportunity to evangelise legitimately under the auspices of current public interest christian public holidays. This opportunity would never have arisen had it not been for the public holiday debate!

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## Citizen X

..well if you want Shady, this is what I'll give ya a little bit of weed mixed with some hard liquor some vodka that'll jumpstart my heart quicker than a shock when I get shocked at the hospital by the Dr. when I'm not cooperating when I'm rocking the table while he's operating you waited this long now stop debating cuz I'm back, I'm on the rag and ovulating.
Brother VN, you listen to such devilish music, you sure dont sound like an evangelist! Oh really, so if if put on a circus act and jump around a stage in a large church, would I be an evangelist then?
Im no pastor wanna be, I have all the loyal following I could ever want in my 2 dogs!
I share this with you though, if you a pastor wanna be and you chasing that church stage for all the wrong reasons i.e. get people to worship you instead of the Lord, you wont succeed!!! You see I was the anti Christ, I was the heathen, I am the hopeless sinner. Im grand -parents tried for many years to get me to accept Christ but I refused, I didnt want to become like them Jesus folkjust like the 2 blind men in Matthew 20:30, I too have misconceptions about what it meant to truly be a Christian, I too belived that the sum total of Christianty was running to Church every Sunday to make the pastor and his family rich, celebrating Christmas and observing Easter. Something happens, I had a soul cry! My soul was screaming for help!
You see there was these 2 characters, they were both blind and they heard that Jesus was coming to town. Now, just like all beggars they saw an opportunity, them Jesus folk are dumb, naïve and charitable, well probably make some big bucs today begging off them Jesus Folk! They were in for a surprise! But something happened, the 1 blind guy messed the begging thing up big time! He started to scream, Son of David, have mercy on me! The other blind man tried to9 shut him up and he screamed even more louder! The other blind man probably thought, you just ruined our takings for the day! But, you know what his eye sight was restored!!! Now, that is the Jesus experience Im talking about, Hell heal you body and mind, hell fix the defects in your spirit, Hell then take it one step further, Hell bless you financially just for good measure!
You want to try Jesus! You think you tough? You now how tough you must really be to control your temper, to restrain your tongue Since Im part of the lowly and despised things of this world, Im exempted from pleasantries..
So its simple really, you just need to say this very simple prayer and you set!
 Lord Jesus, Im a horrible man, Ive done horrible things in my life, Im a sinner. Lord, I confess with my mouth and I believe in my heart that you are truly the Son of God, that you were raised from the dead. I now receive you as my Lord and personal Saviour, In Jesus name AMEN.
By the powers vested in me as the lowly and despised things of this world, I now baptize you in the spirit in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit..

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## adrianh

Yes yes, and I shouldn't labour the point about not believing in invisible friends...

...what a lopsided world we live in....

Ok, well it seems that I have been given Carte Blanche to talk about invisible friends considering that you allow yourself to talk about invisible friends. 

So tell me, you still haven't answered my daughter's question; are all the Buddhist Koreans going to the big KFC in the sky? And what about the little Moslem kids that haven't read your book, are they going to the big Chicken Licken in the sky?

Come on, you opened the door....

Now don't complain about labouring the point again, now ya hear, considering that gooses and ganders have equal rights now that the opposite point is being laboured....

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## Citizen X

> Yes yes, and I shouldn't labour the point about not believing in invisible friends...
> 
> ...what a lopsided world we live in....
> 
> Ok, well it seems that I have been given Carte Blanche to talk about invisible friends considering that you allow yourself to talk about invisible friends. 
> 
> So tell me, you still haven't answered my daughter's question; are all the Buddhist Koreans going to the big KFC in the sky? And what about the little Moslem kids that haven't read your book, are they going to the big Chicken Licken in the sky?
> 
> Come on, you opened the door....
> ...


Adrian, I have answered your daugthers question! I said, that a 'lowly and despised thing,' such as myself should not be given the privilege of such advanced questions. You need a 'somebody,' as opposed to a 'nobody,' to answer that question. Might I suggest you lobby Bible School students and pastors to answer that question. Besides I'll never do or say anything that would hurt or offend your daughter as she is a kid and with children one needs to be very responsible with such matters! Furthermore, many Christians including myself believe that a child should not accept Christ as their cognitive abilities and decision making prowness is not yet fully delevoped. We believe that in your duagthers case, when she turn 18, she will engage in a soul seraching exercise by asking many people of many religions questions and then she will ultimately make the final decision..*peace brother!!!! The Bible calls Jesus, 'The prince of peace!" So in serving Him, that will always be my point of departure!!
*

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## Blurock

> Furthermore, many Christians including myself believe that a child should not accept Christ as their cognitive abilities and decision making prowness is not yet fully delevoped. We believe that in your duagthers case, when she turn 18, she will engage in a soul seraching exercise by asking many people of many religions questions and then she will ultimately make the final decision.


The Bible provides all the answers.

Mark 10:13-16
People were bringing little children to Jesus for him to place his hands on them, but the disciples rebuked them. When Jesus saw this, he was indignant. He said to them, Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. Truly I tell you, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it. ...
Mark 10:12-17 (in Context) Mark 10 (Whole Chapter)

We are never too young to listen to God. What if she dies before making a choice? Many spiritual leaders were enlightened at a very young age. (Moses, Samuel and others. Even the Dalai Lama is chosen at birth.) Jesus preached at the temple at the age of 12. There is never a right or wrong time to listen to God, it is all God's time.

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## Citizen X

> The Bible provides all the answers.
> 
> Mark 10:13-16
> People were bringing little children to Jesus for him to place his hands on them, but the disciples rebuked them. When Jesus saw this, he was indignant. He said to them, “Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these. Truly I tell you, anyone who will not receive the kingdom of God like a little child will never enter it.” ...
> Mark 10:12-17 (in Context) Mark 10 (Whole Chapter)
> 
> We are never too young to listen to God. What if she dies before making a choice? Many spiritual leaders were enlightened at a very young age. (Moses, Samuel and others. Even the Dalai Lama is chosen at birth.) Jesus preached at the temple at the age of 12. There is never a right or wrong time to listen to God, it is all God's time.


Point taken Blurock, consider myself lashed! To put things in context, I don't want to say anything that may potentially hurt or offend Adrian's daughter. This is the reason I replied as I did. Yes, even little children felt at ease in Christ's presence!

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## Citizen X

Somebody out there in cyberspace, help me preach this thing!!!!!
In the book of Isaiah, He is wonderful counsellor, mighty God, Everlasting Father and Prince of peace;
In the book of Revelation, He is the Alpha and the Omega, The Conquering Lion of the Tribe of Judah, the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords;
In the book of Hebrews He is the apostle of our profession; the author and finisher of our faith, the Great High Priests; Mediator of the new Covenant;
In the book of Matthew He is the friend of sinners, The son of David, the good Master, the son of man, The Christ, The Messiah, God with us..
I just want to touch on ‘covenant,’ the Mafia understand what a covenant is: Your enemy is my enemy, your pain is my pain, your victory is my victory;
I just also want to touch on High Priest, you simply must appreciate that there was already an ordained High Priest, Caiphas, when Jesus made His rounds, now religion, the Word of God was very clear, there was one  way to impeach a High Priest. You had to tear their High Priests religious garments in public! Now, Caiphas done this himself, the Bible tells us that he was so angry that he tore his own garment..this Act made Jesus the new High Priest!!!!

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## Blurock

> Point taken Blurock, consider myself lashed! To put things in context, I don't want to say anything that may potentially hurt or offend Adrian's daughter. This is the reason I replied as I did. Yes, even little children felt at ease in Christ's presence!


Not lashed brother. I just tried to offer some help in my own simple way.

You may want to copy this link for more biblical answers;
http://www.biblegateway.com/ 

We have to understand though that God reveals Himself to those that seek Him. We can not just quote a text from the Bible to justify our own views. We also need to see the writings in context and in the time that it was written.        :Wink:

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## adrianh

You know, the more you wave your book the more I despise the entire concept of religion, especially Christianity (a self rightious doctrine that seems to give the believer the right to shove their fairytales down everybody's throats)

My mind has a switching threshold where once a switch is flipped it doesn't easily flip back. These posts have served to flip my anti-Christianity switch to 100% My daughter is seriously studying Buddhism and she has asked me to take her to a local temple. That is where we will go to find her a place in the universe, (I will not take her to a place filled with nonsensical circular quoted out of context rub it in your nose answers)

The only thing that comes to mind when I read the last couple of posts is this: Absolutely Horrid

No need to give me a talking to Dave, I will refrain from speaking about this matter any further out of sheer disgust.

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## adrianh

Ok, now that that is done, lets get back to Christian holidays. Yes I think that we should have all the holidays and that they should all be paid, hell, why don't we throw in a couple of extra days. The staff can all park off at home and I will continue to work as I always do.

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## Citizen X

Adrian, we all appreciate that excessive public holidays affect the bottom line.. In the final analysis, every individual should be allowed to take paid leave for their holy days or persceived holy days. They should apply for us leave at least 3 months before such day(s) so that the employer can make alternative arrangements.

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## adrianh

Yes I fully agree. Ok, I'm done with this thread.

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## Citizen X

> Yes I fully agree. Ok, I'm done with this thread.


No, Adrian, it will be so empty without you!!! No matter how many fish in the sea it will be so empty without Adrian...

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## Blurock

> You know, the more you wave your book the more I despise the entire concept of religion, especially Christianity (a self rightious doctrine that seems to give the believer the right to shove their fairytales down everybody's throats)
> 
> My mind has a switching threshold where once a switch is flipped it doesn't easily flip back. These posts have served to flip my anti-Christianity switch to 100% My daughter is seriously studying Buddhism and she has asked me to take her to a local temple. That is where we will go to find her a place in the universe, (I will not take her to a place filled with nonsensical circular quoted out of context rub it in your nose answers)
> 
> The only thing that comes to mind when I read the last couple of posts is this: Absolutely Horrid
> 
> No need to give me a talking to Dave, I will refrain from speaking about this matter any further out of sheer disgust.


@Adrian, I may also have once been where you are now. I also detest bible punchers and I do not support the dogma of any church. I have also posted on this forum against the preaching of religion as people all believe that they are right. Religion is often twisted to serve our own selfish interests.

We all have our choices, but I do believe in a God who is greater than any man. You are free to believe in what ever pleases you, but do not expect me to sit by idly while you mock my God and my religion.

The Bible is a book of history, prose, poetry and teachings. Funny that the more people try to discredit the Bible, the more proof of its authenticity is found through archaeology, historians and scientists. The Bible is also recognised by other religions of which many have similar teachings.

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## Dave A

Last night I watched a jumbo jet flying through the night sky on its way to land at King Shaka International Airport.

All you could see was a cluster of lights moving across the night sky at pace. And there was that unmistakable distant roar of the jet engines I'm sure most of us are so familiar with.

What would someone sitting in a field next to the camp fire gazing at the stars have thought of such a sight and sound just 200 years ago, let alone 2000 years ago?

If you had no knowledge that such a thing existed, never seen an aircraft before, or seen an airport; no concept of jet powered flight, electric light - you simply had no context to identify what it was - what would you think?

How would you describe it?

Just 200 years ago what would you think of a person who you saw a month ago near blind with cataracts, and between then and now those cataracts had been removed by laser surgery, complete with cornia adjustments so that he/she had perfect vision, and now you met this same person who has miraculous perfect vision?

How would Revelations have been written if the audience that heard the message of many amazing and wondrous things from the prophet / son of God / spectacularly enlightened person for those times (depending on your belief) had our current "modern day" context?

How would the citizens of the world from 2000 years ago percieve you if you were to tell them of today's world?
It would take no more than showing them a touch screen cellphone and explaining what you can do with it to blow their minds. Now imagine you didn't have that cellphone with you and you could only describe it and what it can do. What would they put down in text to try to pass on what you had said?

How will the citizens of earth just 200 years hence perceive our musings of today?
What will be *their* context?

I'm not here to destroy anyone's faith in a higher power (or higher powers). But I would point out that blind faith in text written just 200 years ago would seem inadvisable, let alone those written 2000 years ago.

My only suggestion to those who would debate matters of religion is beware of dogma.

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## tec0

> Ok, now that that is done, lets get back to Christian holidays. Yes I think that we should have all the holidays and that they should all be paid, hell, why don't we throw in a couple of extra days. The staff can all park off at home and I will continue to work as I always do.


For you it is about money for someone else it is a time to get away from work. I really don’t care what people say or what they cry about. But if you want to remove the holiday I would just take my leave on the days known as Christmas day and so on. If my employer refuses me my legally owed leave I will get the CCMA to do a number on them. 

If that doesn’t work I will fire my boss. Fact is if you are qualified it is easy to find work again.  :Wink:

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## adrianh

tec0 - I have zero, zip, nothing no qualifications. I wish I had the sense to achive at least 3 degrees when I was younger. All I have is my own drive to learn, to work and to do a bit better every day. 

You see, yet again the difference between you and I, I don't work, I spend my time creatively, to me there is no such thing as holiday, I don't need to get away from my life, I am just as happy sitting at my PC typing to you as I am cleaning the workshop at 10pm on a Friday night. I am unable to sit on my butt for a day or a week doing nothing of value just mindlessly having a "holiday". Now i am not judging you or anybody else or the way you spend your time, I am simply saying that I am content going about my business every hour of every day.

Of course we are obliged to give people the leave that is legally owing to them and of course people have the right to enjoy their leave as they see fit.

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## tec0

> tec0 - I have zero, zip, nothing no qualifications. I wish I had the sense to achive at least 3 degrees when I was younger. All I have is my own drive to learn, to work and to do a bit better every day. 
> 
> You see, yet again the difference between you and I, I don't work, I spend my time creatively, to me there is no such thing as holiday, I don't need to get away from my life, I am just as happy sitting at my PC typing to you as I am cleaning the workshop at 10pm on a Friday night. I am unable to sit on my butt for a day or a week doing nothing of value just mindlessly having a "holiday". Now i am not judging you or anybody else or the way you spend your time, I am simply saying that I am content going about my business every hour of every day.
> 
> Of course we are obliged to give people the leave that is legally owing to them and of course people have the right to enjoy their leave as they see fit.


I remember seeing on TV where people talked about concoction that was suppose to make you invincible. The person hosting the show said we live in 2012 why do people still believe in the old ways? 

Then one of the people being interviewed said that it is no different than another person believing in divinity and so on.

So what is the real problem? The problem is that people selling goods saw an opportunity to make money close to and on Christmas day. They then exploited it to such a degree that people started to say that that religious group is insensitive? Fact is when you look at who is doing the actual exploitation you do end up with a different view.  :Yes: 

Now I myself is nor here or there, I like holidays because it is a chance to get into the car and drive 400km to see a friend and or relative. Spend time with the people you actually do care about.  

Now if you enjoy your work then it must be the best job ever... It is rare that people enjoy their jobs. All I am saying is this look at who is doing all the pushing and slamming you with dogma. Then have a look that others also dont like it and they may well be from the same religion. Thus I say dont generalize I really dont think that everyone is guilty.

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## Citizen X

> My only suggestion to those who would debate matters of religion is beware of dogma.


A very good afternoon to you Dave :Embarrassment: ,_Your suggestion of being weary of dogma does indeed have merit._ We’ve concluded that religion is subjective and moreover that once someone is indoctrinated he/she is unlikely to accept another belief system. I am a firm believer that every ‘man has a right to choose his own destiny,’ or believe in the ‘God,’ of his/her understanding.
_That said, allow this poor and wandering scholar the opportunity to throw a spanner in the works as it were. This spanner is the type that causes the machine to breakdown eventually!_
_Let’s take a journey to 700 BC_, there was this man called Isaiah, his friends thought he was crazy purely because he was saying very crazy things. Just one of the very crazy things he said can be found in Isaiah 24:19, 20, 21…” The Earth is violently broken, the Earth is split open, the Earth is shaken exceedingly. The Earth shall reel to and fro like a drunkard, and shall totter like a hut.” _SAY WHAT_, you must be drunk my friend, just show me how you can make even this plot spilt open let alone the Earth, Ya/no you Isaiah , you a textbook example of looney tunes. Here we are in 700 BC and this is the rubbish you have to say!
On Sunday, December 26 2004,_ we had to enter a new word in the English dictionary ‘Tsunami_,’ It’s a Japanese word that stems from TSU meaning a harbour and name which is a large wave.
Now, here’s where it gets interesting, of the coast of Indonesia 9.0 magnitude earth quake rocked the earth. It’s estimated to have released the power of 24000 Hiroshima-type bombs. Richard Gross a geophysicist with NSA said this Tsunami made the earth wobble! That the quake caused the earth to spin three microseconds or three miilionths of a second faster and tilt about an inch on its axis! _This quake caused a crack on the ocean floor of some 600 miles_..
This same crazy Isaiah in 700 BC, before Rome even though of inventing crucifixion, predicted crucifixion in graphic detail. His friends must have deemed him crazy as the form of Jewish capital punishment was stoning to death not this bizarre idea! These are just 2 old testament prophecies, there are hundreds more that speak volumes. The dogma at that time was this character is crazy, listen to what his saying. Well Isaiah pal, you’ve just made a contribution to the Oxford Dictionary “ Tsunami!
My point of departure is me, I was anti -Christ, anti- Bible, anti- Church, anti- Christian. Those who know me well will attest to the fact that I said on numerous occasions ‘I’ll never follow that Jesus like never ever! _Notwithstanding this we need to have a profound respect for each others religious differences._ Right here in Lenasia, we’ve accomplished this i.e. Muslims, Christians, Hindus etc living in peace and harmony. Every single Eid, I’m invited to at the very least 5 homes, and I go to all, okay eating at all is not possible simply because so much quality food and deserts are prepared, but I go!

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Blurock (15-Nov-12)

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## Darkangelyaya

I respect anybody's belief system who respects mine.
Somehow, though, certain religions feel the insane urge to force themselves on others in order to grow their numbers. Does the number of followers a religion has prove its validity?
Most of us have been given the power to reason. That, combined with a good dose of gut feel, will always lead you in the right direction.
Unfortunately, most of us are also lazy. It is just easier to follow an established (socially acceptable) dogma / religion / way of life / belief system, than it is to pave the way and forge your own.
As an example: In my life, if I had to buy into the generally accepted belief that stage 3 to 4 breastcancer is only curable by cut/poison/burn/death (surgery/chemo/radiation/death), I would've celebrated, this month, my 14 month anniversary of receiving my harp/bass guitar/wings/horns/shovel/virgins.
I look at the way you treat people, animals, nature. That tells me everything I need to know about your god/gods.
There is always another way.
Never stop looking for your own piece of peace.

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Citizen X (14-Nov-12), wynn (12-Nov-12)

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## Citizen X

> I respect anybody's belief system who respects mine.
> Somehow, though, certain religions feel the insane urge to force themselves on others in order to grow their numbers. Does the number of followers a religion has prove its validity?
> Most of us have been given the power to reason. That, combined with a good dose of gut feel, will always lead you in the right direction.
> Unfortunately, most of us are also lazy. It is just easier to follow an established (socially acceptable) dogma / religion / way of life / belief system, than it is to pave the way and forge your own.
> As an example: In my life, if I had to buy into the generally accepted belief that stage 3 to 4 breastcancer is only curable by cut/poison/burn/death (surgery/chemo/radiation/death), I would've celebrated, this month, my 14 month anniversary of receiving my harp/bass guitar/wings/horns/shovel/virgins.
> I look at the way you treat people, animals, nature. That tells me everything I need to know about your god/gods.
> There is always another way.
> Never stop looking for your own piece of peace.


I remain unwilling to defend holidays which are not Biblical! Christmas and Easter is not Biblical and it will never be!!! I think that certain pastors realise that Christmas and Easter is big business, church offering wise so certain pastors don’t have the guts to tell their congregations the truth about Christmas and Easter and perhaps more importantly what are the true Biblical Holy days!!! I thank God that I answer to NO Pastor nor will I ever!! I answer to my liege, my Lord, my GOD only!!
A little Power Point presentation! Some good food for thought!


http://www.theforumsa.co.za/documents/666Chip.PPS

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## vieome

http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/m/mondex.htm 

What I would like to know is the translation(english) of the mark of the beast in the bible correct. The fact is most people are already chipped not a chip in the body but an external chip, every cell phone is a chipped device. A cellphone is a tracker that allows one to make phone calls. This fear of the end of days has been around for ages, in world war one people called it the end of days, same with world war too. If one is so busy planning for the afterlife, how can one live this life that GOD has given them now. I am not sure the work of GOD is to create fear in peoples lifes.

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Citizen X (14-Nov-12)

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## Justloadit

What I have noted is that every generation has a prediction of end of days in their lifetime.

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Citizen X (14-Nov-12)

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## Citizen X

Now here is where I demonstrate something in real time! WORK! It's 18:19 on my watch and I work for my boss, HE wants me to at the very least say a little something here, PROBLEM..memory, I realise that I haven't visited the Book of Revelation for some 3 years. I was very familiar with it, now I simply have to revisit and come back in real time! This is the work aspect of it!!!

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## Citizen X

> http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/m/mondex.htm 
> 
> What I would like to know is the translation(english) of the mark of the beast in the bible correct. The fact is most people are already chipped not a chip in the body but an external chip, every cell phone is a chipped device. A cellphone is a tracker that allows one to make phone calls. This fear of the end of days has been around for ages, in world war one people called it the end of days, same with world war too. If one is so busy planning for the afterlife, how can one live this life that GOD has given them now. I am not sure the work of GOD is to create fear in peoples lifes.


I think this is my final post on this thread! The reality is that I sincerely respect all human beings regardless of their race, religion or political opinion!
A little perspective please?? The perspective is who am I in this matter??? It’s really quite simple, I’m part of the weak, foolish and lowly and despised things of this world. As such I’m allowed a little latitude!
Prophetically there’s a great number of prophecies that still need to be fulfilled before we even reach this time!!!
Work, that’s what comes to mind! I work for the boss! This is work, you see, this exercise made me realise how infallible human memory is. I have not visited the Book of Revelation for about 3 years. I was very familiar with it but to provide some form of a decent response, I’ve had to revisit it. WORK. A servant works and this is part of my common law duties really. “Five days to go: working for the next day; Four days to go: working for the next day; Say we got: three days to go now: working for the next day; Two days to go (ooh): working for the next day, yeah. Say we got: one day to go: working for the -Every day is work - work - work - work!”
You see I see no celebrity pastor or Bible school student coming right here to work, this takes time and effort! They leave this task to a nobody like me! I envy them in that they actually are wise and prudent!!!!
Let me impress upon you that a certain unmentionable villain in this story has taken on the face of logic, reason, philosophy, science, mathematics and all cognitive ability. He’s a villain, about that, I have no doubt; to reason with him will be a futile and senseless task as he will use your very own mind and how your cognitive ability operates, your very own logical process to out reason you.
I admire Saint Augistine, as his task was not an easy one, he had to take on the philosophers of his day and he was privy to what I just said, he was acutely aware of this problem and challenge so he simply said, “ Faith precedes understanding!”
“The name of the book, Revelation, is a translation of the title inthe original New Testament Greek, _Apocalypsis_—the origin of the other name by which the book is now known, the Apocalypse. The Greek term denotes an unveiling or uncovering—thus, a revelation. It here signifies an opening up of hidden knowledge to understanding. This book has perplexed readers for almost 2,000 years. Over the centuries it has been one of the world’s most misunderstood and misinterpretedbooks. Yet it need not be so.”[1]
This elusive ‘mark of this elusive beast,’ actually appears only 8 times in the Book of Revelation!
*Revelation 13:16-18**, basically says that it doesn’t really matter who you are but that when this time comes everyone who need to buy and sell will be required to have this mark either in their forehead or in their right hand.*
*Revelation 14:9**, basically you damned if you accept the mark and you also damned if you don’t*
*Revelation 15:2** “*And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his *MARK*, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.”
*Revelation 16:2**, basically some affliction of the skin occurs to those who have this mark*
*Revelation 19:20*“And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the *mark* of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.”
*Revelation 20:4* “And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his *mark* upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.”

[1] Vide: The Book of Revelation Unveiled: United Church of God: 2007. Page 1

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## Darkangelyaya

If one wants to debate about religion, one needs to take a step back, and investigate EVERYTHING; question EVERYTHING.
Yes, even the Bible.
But that leaves us with a kind of despair - because most of us would regard it as blasphemous to even question such a revered writing.
And if one cannot refer to the Bible as the only source of truth in debate - then what do we base our own truth on?
Scary stuff, this 'starting to think for yourself' - business, isn't it?

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## vieome

Vanash I understand where you coming from. But for me every time I see the mark of fear, I know it is about human control. Goverments have used fear to control the masses for years, and so have the many churches. The bible can be interpreted in so many ways, and for the sake of ones own health and sanity it will do well for one not to fall for the control that fear imposes on ones life. For me the bible is about the battle between Go(o)D and (D)evil. When I see Christians peddling the mark of fear by dangling the whip of the fires of hell to guide to me GOD, I see something Un GODLY in that. If we accept that the mark of the beast is an exact translation of the original Greek script, then we have to accept that the first man and women on earth were Jewish. We have to then accept other trues like that makes the Jewish the chosen people, and all others second in line after the Jews, and then there is the Irony of it all, that the very chosen people(the people God spoke to directly) do not believe in the book of revelation. I know discussing religion and Politics can get very messy, and that is where free will comes into play, we can simply choose to face our fears head on, or forever be controled by them.

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Blurock (15-Nov-12)

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## Citizen X

> I know discussing religion and Politics _can get very messy_, and that is where free will comes into play, we can simply choose to face our fears head on, or forever be controled by them.


It is for this very reason that I stated "I think this is my final post on this thread! The reality is that I sincerely respect all human beings regardless of their race, religion or political opinion!"

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## Martinco

> It is for this very reason that I stated "I think this is my final post on this thread! The reality is that I sincerely respect all human beings regardless of their race, religion or political opinion!"


Vanash,

Thank you for your views but I must say as a Christian that I was getting very on edge with some of the views/statements made and although I still belong to the old school I can also think for myself.
My religion is important to me and as you said above, this thread is now "worn out".
I respect other people/cultures religious beliefs and in turn would expect them to respect mine.

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## Blurock

Funny that so many people are concerned about the "end times". 

They consult gypsies and horoscopes and refer to Revelations as if it will reveal how the world will end. Many people have made predictions and we are now even referring to the Mayan calender and Nostradamus as proof of when the world would end. 

Truth is - nobody knows. Even so, the signs are there, just as the blossoms on a fruit tree in spring. When you see the blossoms, you know that summer is near...

We don't know how long the summer will last. That's why I agree with Darkangelyaya - we have to live every day as if it is our last. Carpe diem!  :Wink:

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Darkangelyaya (15-Nov-12)

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## wynn

Despite its appearances, the Book of Revelation is not describing supernatural events. It is giving a factual, down to earth history. All its “angels” are men, ministers of a powerful religious organization, who wore white vestments. They ministered in “Heaven”, which at Qumran was a platform open to the sky where prayers were offered at the high points of the sun. When the organization moved to Ephesus and Rome, “Heaven” was the upper floor of a cathedral.

An assumption that all events are governed by numbers and systems was a product of the Pythagorean education of Essenes, stated by Josephus (Antiquities 15, 371). Although they were in the process of discovering its fallacy, it gave a useful means of recording events in a disguised way that was understood only by their insiders. The whole book is very cleverly and accurately coded by these means.

See Dr Barbara Thiering's work at http://www.peshertechnique.infinitesoulutions.com/

If you read this it may cause you to look at the New Testament in a different light???? possibly with your eyes and mind open.
Or you can carry on mindlessly believing in the 'Flying Spaghetti Monster'

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## Willie0100

Hi Vanash, so what you actually saying to me is that I don't "HAVE" to spend money this "Christmas" buying loads of presents? IF SO WHOOOOHOOOOO

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## Citizen X

> Hi Vanash, so what you actually saying to me is that I don't "HAVE" to spend money this "Christmas" buying loads of presents? IF SO WHOOOOHOOOOO


A very good afternoon to you Willie,
Nice to ‘see,’ you again at TFSA! Willie, here's the thing: 1: Christmas 25 December was a Roman pagan public holiday. Christianity was initially against the Roman law and Christians were persecuted. Emperor Constantine in the 4th century becomes a Christian and he decides to make Christianity the official religion. The 300 years before this no Christmas was celebrated!!!
I don’t dispute the birth of the Christ! For me there is no doubt that he was born!!! He was not born on 25 December, that’s impossible for many reasons, I’ll just give you 1 here:- 1. In Israel it’s Winter in December, the Romans would never have ordered a census in Winter, it would defeat their very own purpose and shepherds would never tend sheep out in the night of Winter. The sacrificial lambs had to be fat and healthy not thin or dead which is what would have happened had they tendered their flocks in Winter! The Apostle Paul and all the disciples never observed Christmas and Easter and in fact you will find no reference to Christmas and Easter in the Bible from the book of Genesis up to and including the Book of Revelation!!!
*PROBLEM* ”Certain pastors” know that Christmas and Easter is very big business for them, for some of them, their luxury overseas holiday comes straight from the church offering at Christmas so they going to be reluctant to tell their congregations the truth even they themselves do know the truth!!Secondly, certain pastors are acutely aware that if they do tell their congregation the truth about Christmas and Easter, the vast majority of the congregation is going to say: ‘No, this doesn’t sound right, we know the Bible says you must observe Christmas and Easter, and we going to leave this evil church and continue the way we have for generations!!’
*All the leading Biblical scholars across our world will confirm every single fine detail I’ve shared* in this entire thread as what I say is irrevocable and irrefutable!! But PEACE brothers and sisters. I just think that we should celebrate the birth of the Lord every single day and that we should commemorate Calvary every single day!!! Nothing wrong if you chose 25 December as a special day to commerate the birth but don't say that it's Biblical, becuase then I'm going to ask you a very easy question Where in the Bible???

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## Blurock

> Hi Vanash, so what you actually saying to me is that I don't "HAVE" to spend money this "Christmas" buying loads of presents? IF SO WHOOOOHOOOOO


My daughter started something a while back. In stead of giving people presents, she'd rather give them vouchers to do or experience things. Try something unusual and exciting such as bungee jumping, a plane ticket, a visit to the theatre or parachuting. How about interacting with elephants or feeding cheetahs?

Someone suggested that we should support local businesses in stead of buying cheap imported tinsel bling bling presents. Buy a spa voucher or a hair cut and blow dry from a local hairdresser. Donate to a children's home or take an elderly person for lunch. Take some friends on a fishing trip for the day.

There are so many alternatives to the socks and ties and other boring presents we give. :Cool:

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## Willie0100

Thanks Vanash, glad to be back. Blurock, just when I thought I was about to save money here you come with another version of spending..........O well suppose I'll have too!!!!!

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## Blurock

> Thanks Vanash, glad to be back. Blurock, just when I thought I was about to save money here you come with another version of spending..........O well suppose I'll have too!!!!!


If you are a husband, father, or son, you end up paying. That's life! Who told you life is fair?

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## Willie0100

Transvaal certainly doesn't

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## Citizen X

> “Now this looks like a job for me so everybody just follow me, cuz we need a little controversy... Attention Please" feel the tension soon, here's my 10 cents my 2 cents is free!” 
> This is not a religious debate! The question on the continued existence of the Christian holidays Easter and Christmas respectively are now in the public interest. The Commission for the Promotion and Protection of the Rights of Cultural, Religious and Linguistic Communities (CRL) are inviting arguments in favour or objections against. Any member of the public may submit arguments in favour of these holidays or objections against the continued existence of these holidays. Arguments in favour or objections against may be sent to: Sipho Mantula: sipho@crlcommission.org.za and cc: chairperson@crlcommision.org.za and ceo@crlcommission.org.za
> 1. I am a Christian man, an evangelist at heart. I stand firmly AGAINST THE CHRISTIAN HOLIDAYS OF CHRISTMAS AND EASTER! These are nice holidays but they are certainly not holy days! I will submit my objections against these holidays!
> 2. Of the 7 billion on people on this planet, I’m at an immediate advantage in articulating my opinions and criticisms on any aspect to do with Christianity. My official public relations statement clarifies: I am the worst Christian on this planet, I have only committed a trillion and 1 sins to date. Of the Lord’s servants I’m the least important, a mere footnote on his official list. I’m part of the foolish, weak and lowly and despised things of this world. I don’t have a holy than thou attitude! Unless anyone can make similar statement then they simply don’t enjoy the sheer privilege I have in raising questions and leveling criticism at my fellow Christians, any Church whatsoever, any bible student whatsoever, and pastor whatsoever and any professor of theology whatsoever. As the under dog, as the one at the bottom of the most important Christian list I get to criticize those at the top of this ‘most important Christian list,’ My assertions on Christian public holidays are beyond reproach and not even a professor of theology will successfully be able to rebut anything I put forth. Think you can? Try me! One of my favorite hobbies and past times is extensive Bible Study! I don’t know the whole Bible but I’ve got the holy spirit to guide me and that is more than sufficient for any undertaking in His Majesties service!
> 1. Firstly as perhaps most importantly the basic tenet of Christianity is that you cannot force anyone to accept Jesus Christ as Lord and Saviour, that person must come willingly and not by duress. It’s actually against my religion of Christianity to force my religion on anyone! Similarly, if it’s common cause that we cannot force Christianity on anyone then it only follows logically that you cannot enforce Christian holidays alternatively perceived holy days on anyone. On the birth of the Messiah, this is something we need to commemorate every single day and not one on day only! On the cross of Calvary, we need to remember it and it’s significant every single day!
> I’ll get right to the essential gist of this matter:-
> 2. The ignorance of the Church from it’s inception: The Church always believed that the Earth was stationery and further that the Sun revolved around the Earth and further that the Earth was the center of the universe and further that all other planets revolved around the Sun. A dispute occurred in the 17th century: Galileo correctly asserted that the Earth revolved around the Sun and not the Sun revolved around the Earth.. He argued that the scriptures themselves were actually not wrong at all but that rather the interpretation of such scriptures was very wrong. The Church only officially corrected this misconception in 1992!!!!!In 1992 the Pope officially confirmed that the Earth was not stationary and further that it was the Earth which revolved around the Sun and not the Sun around the Earth. In 1992!!!! I need to say this again! Only in 1992!!!!
> 3. My simple but very effective hypothesis: If one is a mathematician that it follows logically that such a person knows a great deal about mathematics and further that such a person has a mathematics textbook and is very familiar with this mathematics textbook, similarly, if one is a Christian, then it should also follow logically that such a person knows a great deal about Christianity and further that such a person is very familiar about his primary book of instruction which is the Bible;
> 4. I’m still laying foundation! Bear with me! I will unpack the argument against the Christian holidays of Eater and Christmas so adequately that not even a professor of theology would has written a million books will successfully be able to find any fault whatsoever with my assertion!
> ...


Oh, let's just start the examination in chief from the beginning, shall we!! As it was in the very beginning, so shall be in the end....

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## Citizen X

> Continued from previous post....
> 1. Okay, so we now know based on what the Bible says that John the Baptist mother Elizabeth was 6 months pregnant when Jesus was conceived by the Holy Spirit i.e when the angel Gabriel went to her and told Mary that essentially she will become pregnant despite Marys assertion to the angel that she was a virgin. Right, simple logical tells you that if you can establish when John the Baptist was born, you will at the very least be able to establish the season or time of year when Jesus was born give or take 2 weeks. John the Baptist father is none other than the Biblical Zacharias, the Bible clearly tells us that Zacharias was a priest. One must appreciate something very simple about the Jewish people. They has a calendar, they had predetermined holy days and religious practices, they were diligent in observing their holy days and carrying out there religious practices diligently and perhaps more importantly on time i.e. when it was the predetermined time for observance of a holy day or religious practice, they done just that, on arrival of that time, they observed that day or they carried out that prayer.(Okay, a bit off the point, just a bit, Isaiah prophesied crucifixion 700 years before the Romans invented it!!! Also, 700 years before the birth of John the Baptist, Isaiah prophesied his birth by writing The voice of one crying in the wilderness: Prepare the way of the Lord; make his paths straight.)..back to the point...In the book of Luke the Bible tells us that Zacharias was a priest serving under the priestly division of Abijah. Historical and Jewish religious calculations indicate that this burning of incense when Zachariahs division was on duty, was around June 14 to 20 of that particular year.In was on or about this period of his temple duties when the angel basically informed Zacharias that his wife Elizabeth who was Marys cousin would have a child, the angel further told him that he was to name his child John and ensure that this child never consumes alcohol. So this religious activity of burning incense and offering prayers in Israel by Zacharias who was a priest under the priestly instruction of Abijah takes place somewhere around 14 June. In Israel Spring is between 20 March to 20 June. So this prayer takes place in Spring in Israel. Also, the angel did not tell Zacharias that his wife Elizabeth is already pregnant but rather that  Your wife will bear you a son and you are to give him the name Jon.Luke 1: 13. Now in Luke1:23 the Bible says,  When his time of service was completed he returned home. After this his wife Elizabeth became pregnant. His time of this kind of priestly service would have ended on or about 20 June(Still spring in Israel but the very end of Spring) : In Israel Summer is 21 June to 22 September. Its therefore safe to say that John the Baptists conception occurred somewhere around the end of June(Summer in Israel). So we do the obvious we add nine months of pregnancy, namely Elizabeths pregnancy with John the Baptist. This brings us to the end of March. So John the Baptist was born on or about 30 March in Spring in Israel as Spring in Israel occurs between 20 March to 20 June. We know that there is a difference in age between John the Baptist and Jesus Christ by 6 months. Luke:26 In the sixth month of Elizabeths pregnancy, God sent the angel Gabriel to Nazareth, a town in Galilee, 27 to a virgin pledged to be married to a man named Joseph, a descendant of David. The virgins name was Mary. So if you add 6 months to the end of march brings you to the end of September when Jesus Christ was most likely born. In Israel Autumn(or fall) is 22 September to 21 December. So the season that Jesus Christ was most likely born in was Autumn or as it is known overseas Fall in September but definitely not on 25 December!!!!!!!
> 
> 
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> 
> 
> 2. Some background to the Zacharias connection: King David (1 Chr 28:11-13) divided the sons of Aaron into 24 "courses" or groups (1 Chr24:1-4) to create an orderly schedule by which the Temple of the Lord could be staffed forthe year. Once these courses were established, lots were drawn to determine the sequence each group would serve in the Temple (1 Chr 24: 7-19). Each of the 24 courses of priests would begin and end their service on the Sabbath for a tour of duty of one week (2 Chr 23:8,1 Chr 9:25).The Jewish calendar begins in the Spring (Nisan), so the first course of priests (Jehoiarib)would serve for seven days. The second week would then fall to the family of Jedaiah. The third week would be the festival of Passover, when all priests would be present for service, sothe schedule would resume with the third course of priests (Harim) on the fourth week. By the tenth week, since both Passover and Shavu'ot had occurred, the 8th course of Abia (Abijah) would be called for temple service. By means of this arrangement, after the 24th course was completed, the cycle of courses would repeat, so that in a given year each groupof priests would serve in the Temple twice per year (in addition to the three major festivals).There are several reasons to believe that Yeshua was born during the Fall, in particular,during the festival of Sukkot. Among the reasons cited are as follows:1. Yeshua's cousin, John the Baptist, was conceived in mid Sivan (May/June) and born 40weeks later on Nisan 15, the Passover.a. John's father (Zacharias) was a Levite who was assigned to serve in the templeduring the course of "Abia," the 8th course of the year.(Luke 1:5, 1 Chr 24:10)b. Since the cycle of service began on the first Shabbat of Nisan but both Passover and Shavu'ot require all priestly courses to serve, the actual time the 8th course would serve would be during the 10th week of the year. This places Zacharias' service in the Temple as beginning on the second Sabbath of the month of Sivan(May/June). c. It is written that John was conceived shortly after this tour of duty(Luke 1:23-4). Therefore, John the Baptist was probably conceived shortly afterthe third Sabbath of the month of Sivan (i.e., late Sivan).d. Therefore John the Baptist was born around Passover (Nisan 15). (Recall that Yeshua said that John the Baptist was a type of Elijah the prophet(Matt 17:10-13, cp. Luke 1:17). Even today it is customary for Jews to set out a special cup of wine during the Passover Seder meal in anticipation of the arrival of Elijah for the festival.)2. Yeshua was conceived in late Kislev (Nov/Dec) and born 40 weeks later during Sukkot.a. Yeshua was conceived six months after John the Baptist (Luke 1:24-27, 36).Note that the "sixth" month refers to Elizabeth's pregnancy, _not_ the month of Elul (cp. Luke 1:36). b. Six months added to late Sivan is late Kislev, which is the time of the _conception_ of Yeshua (note that the first day of the Jewish festival of Chanukah, the Festival of Lights, is celebrated on the 25th day of Kislev, and Yeshua is called the Light of the world (John 8:12, 9:5, 12:46)). c. From the 15th day of Nisan (John's birthday), we add six months to arrive at the 15th day of the 7th month, Tishri - the first day of the festival of Sukkot. If the day of his birth were the first day of Sukkot, the day of his circumcision would be the eighth day, Shemini Atzeret/Sinchat Torah, which, like the first day, is a day of sacred assembly (Leviticus 23:39). On this day the Jews complete their annual cycle of Torah readings and start again from _Bereshit_ (Genesis). Simchat Torah is considered to be a time of "fulfillment" of the Torah.The circumcision of Yeshua at this time indicates how he had come to fulfill theLaw and the Prophets (Matt. 5:17-18).
> 
> ...


I know, I've got a nerve, as a member of the "weak, foolish and lowly and despised things of this world, I've got to have just a little nerve, don't you think?

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## Citizen X

> Quality decision: I have made a quality decision not to submit my objection to the (CRL), on the basis that what the next man or woman does or doesnt do is none of my business! Im not against public holidays. Christmas and Easter are nice HOLIDAYS but they are not holy days. They were never holy days, they are not holy days and they will never ever become holy days.
> 1. Jesus was against religion. He demonstrated this on numerous occasions in the Bible. Ill give you one example in my words, but you can refer to both the old and new testament for confirmation and assurance that Im not taking things out of context and putting my own meaning into scripture!
> 2. During Jesus ministry, every single Jewish person by virtue of what their religion said, knew how to deal with a disobedient son. Their religion was very clear on the steps to be taken. Their religion gave them specific methods in the old testament on how to deal with any disobedient son. You simply took this disobedient son to the outer gates of the city, beat the hell out of him and then stone him to death. No one could tell any Jewish person of that day about what religion said about a disobedient son,as they were very familiar with their religion!!!
> 3. Jesus starts to tell them this story of this disobedient son. Im confident that as soon as Jesus started speaking on this issue of a disobedient son, the sentiment must have been, tell us something we dont know), instead of confirming the religious requirement of stoning a disobedient son to death. Jesus say, despite the fact that this son squandered his inheritance and lived a terrible life drinking etc, his father took him back, gave him a ring, gave him sandals, the best robe that was available and ordered a celebration!!!! This was a huge departure from what the religious requirements were i.e. stone him to death!!!!!So there you have it, Ive illustrated sufficiently how Jesus himself was against religion and not for religion!!!
> 4. Certain ignorant pastors, Christians, bible school students and bible school graduates: Ive often heard with disgust how the aforementioned describe the Biblical tax collector, and attempt to create parallels with SARS. Ive got news for you! The Jewish people were not against the concept of paying tax and they were not against tax collectors! Lets put this in context: In Jesus time, Jerusalem was in essence a colony of Rome. All tax collected was sent to Rome for the benefit of Rome. This money was not used to maintain the infrastructures or better the lives of Jews in Jerusalem. Rome chose Jewish people an employees to basically collect tax for Rome on commission. This is what angered the Jewish people! The tax was going to Rome, the tax collector was Jewish and was making a commission on the tax he collected from his fellow Jewish people. This was why tax collectors were hated!
> 5. It only takes a few seconds to become a bona fide Christian in the eyes of God. You dont have to be born a Christian and you most certainly dont need some special ceremony to make things official. This 1 requirement of becoming a Christian can be found in Romans 10:9-13. In short if you confess with your mouth and believe in your heart that Jesus Christ is the son of God and was raised from the dead, you will be saved. Its as simple and clear as that!!!!
> *This is my final post on this thread!*


Okay, so I lied! That was not my last post..Here's my compromise to my fellow Christian brother and sisters...(aforementioned that is!)

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## Citizen X

> * An opportunity such as this would not have occurred had it not been for this question of Christian public holidays emerging for public comment.* When I first joined TFSAM, TFSA members rightfully asserted that this is not a religious forum but rather a business forum. Its also a forum in which we can address matters which are in the public interest. So, there you have it, my ground of justification. 
> *The problem statement is very simple*, What must I do with this Jesus? The prefect of Jerusalem Pontious Pilate first asked this very question in Matthew 27:22. My solution is very simple: You must merely accept Him and believe in Him! Nothing difficult there! Okay, to clarify, Im not asking you for any donation, tin food or blankets, but you yourself can go and distribute such items to whomsoever may be in need!
> 1. The problem with religion is that it wont always help you even if you do what it stipulates that you do! It may even cause you to be isolated and shunned! The law, the religion was very clear on leprosy, uncleanness caused by a bodily discharge and impurity resulting from contact with the dead. The law, the religion said, you must be sent away from that society, you must be secluded. So, if you were a woman and you had a continuance bleeding problem you were regarded as unclean and segregated, you most certainly could not come into the presence of a priest, temple and especially God! There was also a religious route to follow if you were a woman that suffered from this continual bleeding, you had to take a dove and a pigeon and perform such ritual before the priest and if you were healed you then sacrificed this dove and this pigeon. 
> 2. In Mathew 9: 20- 22, Mathew introduces us to this woman with some issue of bleeding, the Bible is clear, she had this problem for 12 years. She said, something along the lines of , if only I could touch his cloak I would be healed.* The reasonable inference, she tried everything else*, she done what the religion told her to do and she was no better, she had enough of religion. *In fact, according to religion, she was not even supposed to be there out in the open and certain not touching the Most High*, but there she was and she did touch his cloak and she was healed and guess what, The Most High did not forsake or shun her or put the religion to her, if religion was put to her and would have gone something like this, You foolish, ignorant, arrogant woman! Dont you know that the law says you must be secluded when when you have a discharge, and by the way that is just the monthly period, you have this horrible discharge for 12 years, you should be secluded, you are not even supposed to come in the presence of a an ordinary priest, yet you dare to come in the presence of the Most High, stone her to death!!!Thank goodness and God for Jesus!If she had followed her religion she would have died a miserable death in a few years because of the continual bleeding
> 3. *Im at liberty to say a great many things which many of my Christian brethren are precluded from saying because they dont have the privilege of my official status as the heathen, the lowly and despised things of this world,* this is an exclusive club, you dont get to join this club unless you really are the lowly and despised things , of this world! My official public relations statement clarifies: I am the worst Christian on this planet, I have only committed a trillion and 1 sins to date. Of the Lords servants Im the least important, a mere footnote on his official list. Im part of the foolish, weak and lowly and despised things of this world. I dont have a holy than thou attitude! Unless anyone can make similar statement then they simply dont enjoy the sheer privilege I have in raising questions and leveling criticism at my fellow Christians, any Church whatsoever, any bible student whatsoever, and pastor whatsoever and any professor of theology whatsoever. As the under dog, as the one at the bottom of the most important Christian list I get to criticize those at the top of this most important Christian list,
> 4. When I look at certain Christians(and only I as per my status aforementioned can really do so with good conscience) , I realise that if you take Christmas, Easter and Sunday church away from them, there is absolutely nothing left of their Christianity because the sum total of their Christianity is Christmas, easter and Sunday church. If you take Christmas, Easter and Sunday church away from somebody the lowly and despised likes of me, you take nothing from me at all! In fact, you give me more time to do the Lords work! You see, praise and worship is a daily labour of love, not a Sunday 1 hour burden, serving the Lord is a 24/7 job and paying homage to his birth and death are daily labour of love tasks. You can choose to fast and pray whenever to want to. A lot of Christian are surprised to hear that as a Christian you have a directive from the Lord, a simple one really, preach the gospel; Perhaps taking Christmas and Easter away from Christians will actually cause to buy some food and clothing for the poor instead of wasting huge amounts of money on clothing and food on so called holy or religious days which are not even endorsed in the Bible. 
> 5. *Becoming a Christian, you can embark in seconds, it really very simple:* You simply have to confess with your mouth and believe in your heart that Jesus Christ is the Lord, is the Son of God and was raised from the dead and you will be saved, I give you my word.
> 6. *I love and serve the Lord because I know what Hes done in my life, Im acutely aware of many horror stories He spared me from.* I cognisant about what hes doing in my life at present and I believe the good plan, purpose and mission He has for my life going forward. You see, I qualify as the prodical son, a trillion times over! The law, the religion, was very clear on how to deal with a prodical son, in short, you first beat the hell out of him and thereafter you and the rest of the community stone him to death and that was that! Now, here comes this Jesus says, NO, you dont do that! You give him another chance, you accept him, you forgive him and you also restore him! Incidentally, The Lord promises restoration for you in all areas of your life! Im not looking for any acceptance from anyone, Ive already been accepted foetstoots by the Lord! Im also not really looking for acceptance in a world that hates my God!
> 7. You see the religion, The law was very clear on how to deal with a prodical son, Deuteronomy 21:18-21 
> ...


Now, here my Christian brethren, you my compromise with you clearly!(The aforesaid, that is!)

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## tec0

I don't understand the logic and or reason why people want to force others. If you want to take it away then take it away. But don’t expect people to respect other religions when you do. What is good for the one is good for the other. I can think of many holidays to strip from the calendar and I can promise you that the people that lose those days will not be happy about it.

So what will it be?

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## Citizen X

> I don't understand the logic and or reason why people want to force others. If you want to take it away then take it away. But don’t expect people to respect other religions when you do. What is good for the one is good for the other. I can think of many holidays to strip from the calendar and I can promise you that the people that lose those days will not be happy about it.
> 
> So what will it be?


Good morning Tec0,
I see your reasoning! Here's the thing though, if what I'm saying is conjecture, then someone out there please prove me wrong!!!! If anyone is offended by anything I've said thus far, tell me why? Find fault in any of my reasoning(which by the way, the leading Biblical scholars this world over happen to agree with!)
Here's where I reconcile with my Christian brethren and bring this to a nice happy end: Genesis 1:26, "God gave man dominion over ALL things." So if we as mankind , as this species have decided among ourselves that, due to symbolic reasons and reasons of tradition, we deliberately choose to celebrate the birth of the Mesiah and commemorate alternatively pay homage to Calvary on very specific days of the Julian calendar, then just say so! We exercise our dominion over all things....

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tec0 (18-Nov-12)

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## tec0

> If anyone is offended by anything I've said thus far, tell me why?


No  :No:  it is not like that Vanash... I am simply showing the other side of the coin. If you take something away from someone for whatever reason you can expect that, that person will also demand that others must also lose what they value for the same reasons. 

Is this about religion? Freedom of expression? Marketing? or Personal opinion? Fact is all of them will be driven by a person with clear intentions... Those intentions may not be as clear as one would hope.

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## Citizen X

> Is this about religion? Freedom of expression? Marketing? or Personal opinion? Fact is all of them will be driven by a person with clear intentions... Those intentions may not be as clear as one would hope.


God afternoon Tec0, I think it's about all of the factors you mentioned....

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## wynn

"If all our national holidays were observed on Wednesdays, we could wind up with nine-day weekends"

George Carlin

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