# Social Category > South African Politics Forum >  eToll Letter to Zuma

## Darkangelyaya

The Government Has Stolen The Roads From The People
URGENT NOTICE:
To Jacob Zuma and the Government of South Africa.

UBUNTU Party opposes the e-toll system and any other toll-gate activity in South Africa

The UBUNTU Party is fundamentally and completely opposed to the introduction of the e-toll system on the roads of Gauteng.
Furthermore we will continue to oppose all existing and any other proposed tolling systems on the roads of South Africa. 
We will continue to mobilise the people to stop and overturn your unlawful actions. 
The roads belong to the people.
They do not belong to the government or any other private corporation that has unlawfully laid claim to it. This leads us to the conclusion that the government has unlawfully stolen our roads from the people. 
The government has no right to sell our roads to private corporations and foreign shareholders, allowing them to unlawfully hijack our people on the roads and extort money from them.
This is in complete contravention of our Bill of Rights that gives us the freedom to travel in our own country without restriction.
We urge you to start undoing this mess that you have created and restore the roads to the people. The government has a duty and responsibility to maintain and upgrade the roads for the benefit of the people to whom they are accountable and who the government is supposed to serve.
We urge our government to start serving the people, and not serve themselves and/or multinational corporations who seem to influence them with financial muscle.
Show the people that you have honour and integrity  do the right thing for the people whom you serve.

In pure truth

Michael of the family Tellinger (freeman on the land)
UBUNTU Party Founder
UBUNTU Team
http://www.ubuntuparty.org.za/p/home.html
contact@ubuntuparty.org.za
Fax: 086 600 6420

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## Dave A

> Michael of the family Tellinger (freeman on the land)


Oh dear!

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## Mike C

Ok This sounds interesting ... also the thread about UBUNTU.  But when I googled Michael Tellinger, I came up with a number of hits, one of which was this blogspot listing him as a crank.

http://01universe.blogspot.com/2012/...k-michael.html

Now I don't know the man at all and haven't read any of his books so am unable to make any judgment on his credentials or views.  Many people with "revolutionary ideas" have before been called cranks - but then again there are many cranks who have been called cranks.

Perhaps this should be a new thread???  

What are other people's opinion of this man's views?

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## Darkangelyaya

> Ok This sounds interesting ... also the thread about UBUNTU.  But when I googled Michael Tellinger, I came up with a number of hits, one of which was this blogspot listing him as a crank.
> 
> http://01universe.blogspot.com/2012/...k-michael.html
> 
> Now I don't know the man at all and haven't read any of his books so am unable to make any judgment on his credentials or views.  Many people with "revolutionary ideas" have before been called cranks - but then again there are many cranks who have been called cranks.
> 
> Perhaps this should be a new thread???  
> 
> What are other people's opinion of this man's views?


I know him personally, and have read most of his books.  I have also attended an International Conference hosted by him in SA last year, with more than 20 respected international scientists and experts as speakers.

He is an awesome man. He is humble and extremely intelligent, and really has the best interest of all humankind at heart. He has done many years of research for everything that he states, and applied his mind in a way few of us ever do; thinking outside of the box, and transcending our 'training/indoctrination'.

He is a revolutionary. 

Don't you think we NEED a revolutionary? Are you happy living in a society where crime is rife, the rulers are corrupt, and we are slaves to the rich?

Only the people who, deep in their gut, feel that there is more to this life than what we are being fed, may ultimately decide to research all the aspects of what he proclaims. Some of these people may find the truth for themselves. Some may decide to return to their comfort zone, because public scrutiny of a non-conformist idea is normally painful for the advocate thereof.

In short, it needs guts to stand up for what you believe in, if 99% of the world disagrees. And guts he's got plenty.

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Mike C (26-Nov-12)

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## Dave A

How familiar are you with the _freeman on the land_ concept?

If you think you've got a solid handle on it - please tell me:
In a society where everyone is a freeman on the land, where do roads come from?

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## Darkangelyaya

The Wiki article is linked below; I had no concept of it before reading it in Michael's signature.
I shall go forth, not multiply, and investigate, and report back, oh fearless leader.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Freemen_on_the_land

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Dave A (26-Nov-12)

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## tec0

Inevitably it is a reality that government can claim any land, structure or natural resource. It is there right to do so legally and without justification. They can take the roads if they want to and it is clear that they don’t care much for public protest. 

The reality is this, e-tolling will happen.  Now I don’t want it to happen because it will just add more strain on me financially. Anything transport orientated for example car licence, driver’s licence and  we can also add income tax already pay for the roads. It did so in the past and will do so for the future. 

It fact that  we pay more tax then most people considering we are a third world country this is alarming. Not to mention we have heavy import tax and yet we are charged with job creation and the development of both the commercial and industrial sectors. 

It is also fact that our government must provide for our safety and healthcare. Was safety provided for with the illegal strikes? Considering the poor state of our hospitals can we say it is provided for? What about municipal services, we actually do pay extra for those and is the upkeep to satisfactory?

When the e-toll system get forced on us it will limit our ability as free people to travel the country. Considering the poor reputation of our local municipal services, who is to say that the money generated will be used correctly? 

Fact is the poor will be alienated and that our beloved taxis isn’t safe nor the answer to public transport. See the local accident reports for details. In the end I fear that it will be too expensive to live in this country. This is already a reality today; now imagine the chaos of tomorrow.

More violent strikes, more death... Job losses... Poor investment Opportunities... Money goes out of the country because it is cheaper to buy goods then to fabricate them due to tax laws... It is like a snake eating itself...

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## Dave A

I actually hadn't read the wikipedia page. It's relatively light compared to this one which goes into more depth.

What I really liked on the wikipedia page was this bit of recent news:




> Dennis Larry Meads of Edmonton, Alberta, Canada, stormed out of a Court of Queen's Bench hearing on June 8, 2012, related to his divorce and matrimonial property case. In response, Associate Chief Justice John D. Rooke wrote a 185-page judgment rejecting what he called "Organized Pseudolegal Commercial Arguments" (OPCA), specifically, in this case, Meads' Freeman on the Land claims, arguments and documents, saying that:
> 
>  _"The bluntly idiotic substance of Mr. Mead’s argument explains the unnecessarily complicated manner in which it was presented. OPCA arguments are never sold to their customers as simple ideas, but instead are byzantine schemes which more closely resemble the plot of a dark fantasy novel than anything else. Latin maxims and powerful sounding language are often used. Documents are often ornamented with many strange marking and seals. Litigants engage in peculiar, ritual‑like in court conduct. All these features appear necessary for gurus to market OPCA schemes to their often desperate, ill‑informed, mentally disturbed, or legally abusive customers. This is crucial to understand the non-substance of any OPCA concept or strategy. The story and process of a OPCA scheme is not intended to impress or convince the Courts, but rather to impress the guru’s customer."_


*"Organized Pseudolegal Commercial Arguments" (OPCA)* - about time this sort of complex obfuscation strategy was given an acronym  :Thumbup: 

What really struck me though is the absurdity of a freeman on the land objecting to toll roads.

No government.
No rates and taxes.
No management committees.
Everyone operating entirely on their own in an individual capacity and recognising no collective's authority.

By my reckoning, in a society living by freeman on the land rules, tolling is the *only* viable way you'd *ever* get a proper road in place at all.

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## tec0

Here we go,  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 




> November 26 2012 at 04:37am
> 
> Comment on this story
> IOL pic nov26 etoll case
> 
> Independent Newspapers
> 
> Arguments over the implementation of e-tolling are expected to be heard in the Pretoria High Court on Monday.
> 
> ...


I wonder if large suppliers will open more branches locally to aid there customers  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## tec0

I just figured, it doesn't really matter what the cost and revenue is... It is still coming out of our pockets  :Whistling:  




> E-toll costing unreliable
> 
> The Opposition to Urban Tolling Alliance (Outa) and the other applicants in the e-tolling court case argued yesterday that the South African Roads Agency Limiteds (Sanral) version of the costs of e-tolling was unreliable and must be rejected.





> *n their heads of arguments the applicants argue that based on their calculations, the overall revenues to be garnered from the public over a period of 20 years will be R102.7548bn.*
> 
> Sanrals version in the supplementary answering affidavit indicates that the revenue will be R71.39574bn.
> 
> We submit that the taking of such an amount of revenue from Gautengs road users will be grossly disproportionate  indeed extortionate  in view of the fact that capital and maintenance costs over 24 years will be approximately R30bn, the applicants state in their heads of argument.
> 
> In the document the applicants argue that Sanrals account of what the cost of tolling would be has constantly changed and is thus inherently unreliable.
> 
> They state that the first version was that the cost of collection of the toll as determined by the applicants from the Gauteng Freeway Improvement Project (GFIP) Steering Committee Report of R20.562bn was correct but based on 60% non-compliance.
> ...

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## Dave S

Why are the taxi industries exempt from these tolls? Taxis, by definition, use the public roads and highways for their income, so surely they should be paying a higher toll? The only reason they are exempt is because they (taxi organisations [SA Mafia]) run the country and gobblemunt is very scared of them, if the taxis weren't exempted, the whole e-toll idea would never have been thought of in the first place.

The gobblemunt would argue that this is to allow the public majority to reach there destinations without further cost, so once again, the gobblemunt are expecting the minority to foot the bill. You gotta love Africa, where the minority pays for everything and the majority just take, take, take... No wonder our country is doomed to financial collapse.

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## IanF

I agree with public transport being exempt if one of the aims is to reduce congestion. But this whole thing looks like a scheme to set up a monopoly to fleece us.

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## Dave S

I hear you Ian, I don't believe it has anything to do with easing congestion, even though that was one of the selling points. No, it's about power, the power the gobblemunt has to do as they please to enrich their own pockets and we must pay for it.

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## Dave S

Here's a clip that puts it in perspective.




Wish I could draw like this guy...

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IanF (09-Oct-13)

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## Dave A

News just in - Unfortunately OUTA have lost their SCA appeal.

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## IanF

This is going to get interesting. I hope that there is a 80% non uptake for the tags as that is going to make paper and copier suppliers rich in Gauteng. Will the post office cope?

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## Chrisjan B

Let's hope the post office don't COPE....

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## sterne.law@gmail.com

An interesting question -
What is the basis, not legal technicalities and not "if they stop stealing our money " argument for people being opposed.
I asked because it would be interesting to see.

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## CLIVE-TRIANGLE

> The Government Has Stolen The Roads From The People
> URGENT NOTICE:
> To Jacob Zuma and the Government of South Africa.


He doesn't read....

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## Dave A

> An interesting question -
> What is the basis, not legal technicalities and not "if they stop stealing our money " argument for people being opposed.


By my understanding, there are a few reasons to be aggrieved:
1. The roads were already there - they've just been widened or refurbished.
2. Toll roads weren't supposed to be introduced on freeways in urban areas.
3. Our fuel levy is supposed to be paying for the roads already.
4. There is supposed to be an alternative route for any toll road (OK - there are alternatives, but in this case for much of it they're through residential areas and already swamped)
5. The rate (per km) is significantly higher than on any other toll road.
6. Enforcement (collections) will be done outside of the judicial arm of government (I've probably put that badly, and I'm not sure if this has already been struck down as unconstitutional).
7. The recording and collection mechanism would seem vulnerable to problems (particularly false number plates on vehicles without etags).

The particular aspect I've been wondering about is how car hiring is going to work out in all this.
Fly to ORT (Jhb).
Wave credit card and hire a car.
Do business at CSIR Pretoria (as example).
Return car.
How are the toll fees going to be raised, billed, allocated and processed?

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tec0 (10-Oct-13)

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## IanF

Dave
Catch  the Gautrain to Hatfeild and a bus to CSIR. The gautrain is worldclass. 
From what I understand the car rental companies have etags already, just how they know what tolls you owe? Will etolls be real time?

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## Blurock

> He doesn't read....


Can't read?

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## tec0

From the beginning I saw that they will force this onto South Africans. It is just to much money... There is no way in hell that they will say "ok scrap the system" The reality is if you control the roads of a Nation you control the Nation. Without roads you cannot transport goods. Without goods and more importantly FOOD and MEDICATION you will not survive. 

We already have to deal with import tax, tax on goods, high fuel cost, and virtually no jobs. How do they expect someone to live if you are no longer "FREE" to use the road of this country? 

South Africa cannot grow because the power-stations cannot deliver power, imagine now we live in a world where there is NO POWER, and it is happening. and now imagine that you have no access to FOOD or MEDICATION due to high cost?

Right now 1% of South Africa has "Real employment" what do you think will happen with this system? 0.8% 0.6%? Where do you draw the line?

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## Justloadit

> Dave
> Catch  the Gautrain to Hatfeild and a bus to CSIR. The gautrain is worldclass. 
> From what I understand the car rental companies have etags already, just how they know what tolls you owe? Will etolls be real time?


They probably use a prepaid tag. Customer tops up before trip

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## Dave A

> Catch  the Gautrain to Hatfeild and a bus to CSIR. The gautrain is worldclass.


 :Hmmm:  But how's the bus service?

I take the Gautrain fairly regularly from ORT to Centurion (and back). The problem from there is I have to get to Clubview, which means someone has to pick me up (take time out of their day). I've seen taxis, but I haven't seen much sign of busses running to and fro. Add up the premium for using the Gautrain ORT stop and what those taxis charge, it's already marginal as to which is cheaper, fly and hire vs fly and use Gautrain / public transport.

The moment there's two people sharing the hire car, going the hire car route becomes a no-brainer on a cost level.

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## Dave S

> ...The moment there's two people sharing the hire car, going the hire car route becomes a no-brainer on a cost level.


Not to mention the fact that you aren't putting your life in someone else's hands, and you have the convenience of being able to go where you are headed, and in a shorter timespan.

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## IanF

> But how's the bus service?


You should check the hours I know it does not operate on weekends or when it hits the workers favourite pastime of striking.
The ORT rates on Gautrain are ridiculous as you have proved with the breakeven on car hire.

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## Didditmiself

> You should check the hours I know it does not operate on weekends or when it hits the workers favourite pastime of striking.
> The ORT rates on Gautrain are ridiculous as you have proved with the breakeven on car hire.


Ian, as Dave said, he only gave the CSIR trip as an example. What does one do if your destination is no where near the Gautrain, even though both the train and the e-toll highway are relatively close together; in other words, in a suburb that requires you to take a bus after getting off the train (which may not be running at that time or if it is, not going to your destination). Must one look for a taxi to complete the rest of the journey? And when you want to go home, do all the above-mentioned in reverse order? Every day? And at what cost? :Confused:

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## tec0

And there you go....

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## Hermes14

Try & find a reliable form of public transport anywhere between Jukskei Park, Johannesburg North all the way to Sundowner the either goes to Sandton or Johannesburg. ( I don't consider the death trap taxis a reliable form of public transport).

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## tec0

> Try & find a reliable form of public transport anywhere between Jukskei Park, Johannesburg North all the way to Sundowner the either goes to Sandton or Johannesburg. ( I don't consider the death trap taxis a reliable form of public transport).


True but the pig behind the wheel of the 4x4 that sits on my a$$ all day is no better... Like the taxi they think the roads belong to them.

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## Dave S

> Try & find a reliable form of public transport anywhere between Jukskei Park, Johannesburg North all the way to Sundowner the either goes to Sandton or Johannesburg. ( I don't consider the death trap taxis a reliable form of public transport).


It's not the reliability that bothers me as much as the safety factor, at least in my own car I have a measure of control, (Tec0, even if I do have a 4x4 up my ass)...

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tec0 (14-Oct-13)

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## tec0

> It's not the reliability that bothers me as much as the safety factor, at least in my own car I have a measure of control, (Tec0, even if I do have a 4x4 up my ass)...


True you are in control of your own car... But for how long? Consider how much your own transport will cost you in the end? It is just getting more and more expensive. I think the idea behind all of this is to take away our choice between private and public transport.

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## Dave S

> True you are in control of your own car... But for how long? Consider how much your own transport will cost you in the end? It is just getting more and more expensive. I think the idea behind all of this is to take away our choice between private and public transport.


I don't think, I know, that is the motivation behind the levies, taxes, e-tolls, fuel price, etc. BTW, did you know that our fuel comes out of Venezuela? and I'm lead to believe that it is the cheapest source globally, but we're paying the same price as UK (exchange rate not withstanding), where they get their fuel from USA and Saudi, two of the most expensive producers. Makes you wonder...

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## tec0

> I don't think, I know, that is the motivation behind the levies, taxes, e-tolls, fuel price, etc. BTW, did you know that our fuel comes out of Venezuela? and I'm lead to believe that it is the cheapest source globally, but we're paying the same price as UK (exchange rate not withstanding), where they get their fuel from USA and Saudi, two of the most expensive producers. Makes you wonder...


As the video that was posted explained. R40 Billion! Lets say that out loud R40 Billion RAND. I am sorry!!! Where the hell does all that money GO! Truth is there is enough money for everyone's need but not for everyone's greed. How will we "the tax payer" be able to afford our government in years to come if R40 Billion is not enough? 

But the thing that just kills me... This R40 Billion can create new jobs... e-tolling creates almost 0 local income as the contractors is not even in this country. I don't know I just don't know... They must think we are so stupid that we cannot figure out that they are robbing us blind... It just makes me sick.

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## Justloadit

> I don't know I just don't know... They must think we are so stupid that we cannot figure out that they are robbing us blind... It just makes me sick.


No they know that the majority is naive, and at the end of the day those are the votes that ultimately count for them to stay in power.

We need to educate the voting base of the shenanigans going on.
What I have noticed is that there has been such a good marketing strategy put to these voters, that anything a "white man" says is a racist remark at attempting to demean the current government, so any statements that are made are simply tossed out.

We need more of our learned friends of the same colour to do a marketing drive to educate these voters into what is really going on. I am hoping that AGANG and in some small part he new EFF will start to do this even with their warped agenda.

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## Chrisjan B

Its a way to steal only. Thats all it is. 

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

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## pmbguy

I may be in danger of preaching anarchism here but why don’t we just blow these dam e-toll stations to smithereens with some C4

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## tec0

> No they know that the majority is naive, and at the end of the day those are the votes that ultimately count for them to stay in power.
> 
> We need to educate the voting base of the shenanigans going on.
> What I have noticed is that there has been such a good marketing strategy put to these voters, that anything a "white man" says is a racist remark at attempting to demean the current government, so any statements that are made are simply tossed out.
> 
> We need more of our learned friends of the same colour to do a marketing drive to educate these voters into what is really going on. I am hoping that AGANG and in some small part he new EFF will start to do this even with their warped agenda.


I think it is fair to say that the cost of living will educate more people then any system can. 

The biggest global factor that will hit home and soon is The Americans... I mean seriously “printing your own money” Didn’t they learn anything from Zimbabwe? Printing your own money diminish its value. But the one thing the Americans have is FOOD! Don’t ever forget that. 

We don’t produce enough food anymore due to other laws and ill conceived ideology. All of this adds to our local living cost. We import food thus roads gets used... Thus with this system and added tax on our food and the cost of our food the total living cost will climb dramatically! To the point where your low to middle class income will no longer be enough to sustain your livelihood.  

But lets see what happens.

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## Dave S

> I think it is fair to say that the cost of living will educate more people then any system can...


When you're in the "poverty belt" and relying on hand-outs, as is the case with 67% of the population, you won't feel the "cost of living" because you aren't really "living", just voting for the same morons that are keeping you in poverty. That ensures that you are totally reliant on the "elected???" gobblemunt.

If afore mentioned individuals were educated and could feed themselves, we might actually have a chance, the cANCer knows this. The e-tolling system is seen by these individuals as a good thing, because it takes money from the rich and gives to the poor, or that is what they believe? They won't see any of the money, but they will still think they are getting some.

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## Didditmiself

> When you're in the "poverty belt" and relying on hand-outs, as is the case with 67% of the population, you won't feel the "cost of living" because you aren't really "living", just voting for the same morons that are keeping you in poverty. That ensures that you are totally reliant on the "elected???" gobblemunt.
> 
> If aforementioned individuals were educated and could feed themselves, we might actually have a chance, the cANCer knows this.


Precisely. Hence their reluctance to discipline Angie Motsheka when she failed on more than one occasion to deliver text books. She was only following orders to delay the delivery as long as possible and then blame it on suppliers. Text books had in fact been found piled up and hidden long after the suppliers had actually delivered the books in some areas, for onward distribution. It's sort of off the topic but I'm just emphasizing what Dave S posted......  :Rant1:

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