# Social Category > General Chat Forum >  Driving Each Other Crazy...

## Dave S

Generally this would be a topic to steer clear of (pardon the pun), but we South Africans have a deteriorating reputation for our bad driving. One cannot help but notice the launch of a new "competition" by one of the leading insurance companies, whereby they (the relative company) seems to think that a simple cell-phone app. can distinguish a good driver from a bad one? We are being fed the notion that speed is the criteria that distinguishes good from bad, however this is rarely the case.

I personally have achieved 4 competition licenses (3 event and 1 season) and hold dual advanced licenses (skidpan control and urban chaos). I make more than my fair-share of mistakes on the road like any other driver, I have been involved in 4 accidents, one of which was my fault. As you can see, I'm just your average Joe when it comes to driving, but some things boggle the brain. Let's start with a million-dollar question...

What, in your opinion, is the safest speed that one can travel, on any road in any country?

To be continued...

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## vieome

I think the problem is not so much speed though it does count. But a larger problem is that no one keeps a fair and reasonable breaking distance .

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## pmbguy

Safety is relative to the risk-reward factor, but technically the safest you could travel is slow...like 30 or so whilst you slowly safely navigate around any potential objects on the road. An individuals risk-reward determines "safe" driving speed to a degree, but Competition is the big driving factor behind why we all just don't drive at 30kh. We are rewarded with time, economic gain, survival etc by driving faster. Our laws are not far from what we as societies conceive of as "safe" given the risk reward factor.
In specific situations, like high-jackings, its prudent to go fukkinfast because your safety requires it. Practicing techniques to drive better and fast ect makes you much more affective to deal with the situation if it does occur and its fun.

To answer the question: Safest speed is Technically: 30kh (no risk-reward and competition factored, everybody drives 30)

With risk-reward and competition, under good conditions, I say 65 in town, 120 on normal roads and 140 on the highways.

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## pmbguy

> I think the problem is not so much speed though it does count. But a larger problem is that no one keeps a fair and reasonable breaking distance .


I agree 

You need that space to react, it seems many people in SA have a problem understanding this

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## Dave S

> I think the problem is not so much speed though it does count. But a larger problem is that no one keeps a fair and reasonable breaking distance .


Yep, this is indeed one of our biggest problems, we all seem to think we are superhuman with reaction times to match. The bigger problem with following distances is when someone changes lanes in front of you, they are taking away your safe distance and you now have to correct it again, it can be a big hazard on a highway at high speed.

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## Dave S

> Safety is relative to the risk-reward factor, but technically the safest you could travel is slow...like 30 or so whilst you slowly safely navigate around any potential objects on the road. An individual’s risk-reward determines "safe" driving speed to a degree, but Competition is the big driving factor behind why we all just don't drive at 30kh. We are rewarded with time, economic gain, survival etc by driving faster. Our laws are not far from what we as societies conceive of as "safe" given the risk reward factor.
> In specific situations, like high-jackings, it’s prudent to go fukkinfast because your safety requires it. Practicing techniques to drive better and fast ect makes you much more affective to deal with the situation if it does occur and its fun.
> 
> To answer the question: Safest speed is Technically: 30kh (no risk-reward and competition factored, everybody drives 30)
> 
> With risk-reward and competition, under good conditions, I say 65 in town, 120 on normal roads and 140 on the highways.


Interesting reply, but what if all other cars are at 40Kph? if you are at 30Kph would you not be a hazard to other motorists? I tend to think that if I am on a highway and all cars are flying past me, then I am putting myself and others at risk, so the safest speed I can achieve would be to match the speed of the vehicles around me? It may not always be legal, if all ather cars are at 140Kph and I want to do 120Kph because it is legal, I am still posing a hazard to myself and others? The same rule applies on just about any other road. There would, of course, be some circumstances where matching speed of others could be a problem.

But speed is only a small portion of driving in general and there are far more hazardous practices on our roads. Speed is rarely responsible for causing an accident, but speed will aggravate the circumstances of every accident.

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## adrianh

> Interesting reply, but what if all other cars are at 40Kph? if you are at 30Kph would you not be a hazard to other motorists? I tend to think that if I am on a highway and all cars are flying past me, then I am putting myself and others at risk, so the safest speed I can achieve would be to match the speed of the vehicles around me? It may not always be legal, if all ather cars are at 140Kph and I want to do 120Kph because it is legal, I am still posing a hazard to myself and others? The same rule applies on just about any other road. There would, of course, be some circumstances where matching speed of others could be a problem.
> 
> But speed is only a small portion of driving in general and there are far more hazardous practices on our roads. Speed is rarely responsible for causing an accident, but speed will aggravate the circumstances of every accident.


Well put. Where speed is concerned the biggest problem is inappropriate speed for given conditions. Like people who try to get onto a highway at a low speed, I always get on at a speed which is a bit higher that the general speed on the highway (whatever that speed might be) so that when I merge I am able to drive my way into the lane without upsetting the flow of traffic. The person who drives at a very low speed or very high speed compared to the rest of the traffic. Of course if it is too low then people get frustrated trying to pass and if it is too high the driver tends to weave in and out of lanes. High speed within built up areas are problematic because people misjudge distances. A pedestrian may walk across a road with the assumption that the oncoming car is travelling at 60 and will take a certain time before the car reaches him. The pedestrian may be perfectly right in his projected time...if the oncoming car wasn't travelling at 100 kmh. 

I find that one of the biggest problems on the road is situational awareness. People are not aware of their surroundings and do not plan for possible problems. You have continually think about things that might happen and your escape routes. The trick is to just to think "what if". People tend to assume that the other guy is going to do exactly what you expect...what do you do if they change their minds. Here is a case in point, when I pick the staff up in the morning I make a U-turn at a particular intersection. its one of those roads where many people are forced to do the U-turn due to the fact that the double road blocks an entrance. Ok, so most of the time the people behind me don't get freaked out because they are far enough behind that if something were to happen 
to me they would be able to stop. Then there are the ones who sit right on my tail and get the fright of their lives when I do a U-turn. The problem is that they expect me do something and that expectation gets them into trouble. The best is to assume that everybody else on the road may do anything at anytime and that you should be mindful of what you would do if it were to happen.

I must also add that I think a huge problem is our own sort of "F*ck you, I do what I want" attitude. We don't care about obeying traffic laws because they are not enforced (unless you consider extorting money using remote cameras as enforcement) Our driving style and aggression is a function of society in general rather that driving as such. Our attitudes and anger is amplified because we feel that we are sitting inside our own private tanks and as such are able to get away with a lot more than when we are face to face. I bet that very few people would give another person a zap sign in his face n a shopping centre, why not, well because we know that if were to do so we would get a fat smack right there and then. But in our cars we feel invulnerable, we do as we please because we know that we will probably get away with it. I think that if everybody rode scooters the anger levels would drop because people would know that a fat slap is can be dished out in an instant!

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Blurock (09-Aug-14), vieome (08-Aug-14)

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## vieome

Another thing to add, people are now buying their drivers licenses, and hitting the roads without the necessary driver skills.

Instead of having Bill Boards on Motorways, they should have accident damaged cars mounted so people are reminded of the dangers.

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## pmbguy

> Interesting reply, but what if all other cars are at 40Kph? if you are at 30Kph would you not be a hazard to other motorists? .


I call it a Technical safe speed if everybody drives at that speed (30km), here I excluded risk-reward and competition which does not allow this state to occur naturally. Its a theoretical safest speed. 

Obviously driving at 30 on the N3 will get you killed


I am alluding to the relativity of safety when determining what is a safe speed, given how inherently dangerous driving is

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## adrianh

> Another thing to add, people are now buying their drivers licenses, and hitting the roads without the necessary driver skills.
> 
> Instead of having Bill Boards on Motorways, they should have accident damaged cars mounted so people are reminded of the dangers.


I really don't think that the majority of accidents are caused by those people. I think that they are caused by arrogant d00$e$ who know how to drive but don't have much regard for anybody else due to their aggressive "F*ck you I do what I want attitude"

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## Mike C

I have had my licence for a long time now and I seem to remember that one of the major rules of the road after "keep left" was "be courteous".  I don't think that is in the handbook any longer.

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## Dave A

I remember an employee who boasted he was the best driver in the company. He reckoned he had the fastest take-off technique at traffic lights, best handling skills when cornering at high speed, and best braking techniques when it came to stopping rapidly, especially in adverse weather conditions.

He also had a pretty dim view of the driving skills of another employee in particular, who pretty much plodded his way around during the day.

Kinda burst his bubble a bit when I pointed out the vastly different accident stats between him and the plodder. 
Guess which one had a pretty impressive tally of accidents, including a total write-off, minor fender benders, bumps and scrapes, and which employee had none?

Number of kilometres per accident is probably the best indicator you can get, and with some exceptions, that'll include ones that "weren't your fault."

I had one who kept getting hit from behind. Applying general principle, the fault was with the driver behind for failing to keep a safe following distance. But having to brake aggressively at the last moment because you had failed to anticipate events unfolding before you on a regular basis certainly doesn't help improve your odds of being smacked from behind any.

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## Blurock

> Like people who try to get onto a highway at a low speed, I always get on at a speed which is a bit higher that the general speed on the highway (whatever that speed might be) so that when I merge I am able to drive my way into the lane without upsetting the flow of traffic.


Worst are the people who actually STOP at an off ramp. I've had a few near misses due to observing and trying to anticipate the flow of the traffic on the freeway. Next moment this dooos in front of me slams on the brakes instead of merging into the traffic. Then you also have those morons who will not allow someone to merge from the left, but actually speed up to cut off the car entering from the offramp. 




> The person who drives at a very low speed or very high speed compared to the rest of the traffic. Of course if it is too low then people get frustrated trying to pass and if it is too high the driver tends to weave in and out of lanes. High speed within built up areas are problematic because people misjudge distances.


And the slow driver will sit in the middle lane and just wave people past on both sides of him/her. In KZN there are no "keep left, pass right" signs. The traffic authorities here have never seen the book as we all buy our licences at the local driving school...





> I find that one of the biggest problems on the road is situational awareness. People are not aware of their surroundings and do not plan for possible problems. You have continually think about things that might happen and your escape routes. The trick is to just to think "what if". People tend to assume that the other guy is going to do exactly what you expect...what do you do if they change their minds. The best is to assume that everybody else on the road may do anything at anytime and that you should be mindful of what you would do if it were to happen.


A basic rule not taught by driving schools. Learners are not taught how to drive in the rain for instance. Maybe driving simulators can address this problem and when you have been involved in an accident, go back to simulator training to show that you are competent to handle unusual situations.




> I must also add that I think a huge problem is our own sort of "F*ck you, I do what I want" attitude. We don't care about obeying traffic laws because they are not enforced (unless you consider extorting money using remote cameras as enforcement)


I cannot agree more. I do a lot of driving lately and am amazed at the poor driving skills displayed on the road. People are far too aggressive and impatient. They put themselves (and their passengers) in uncompromising situations and then blame someone else if an accident happens.

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## ians

I drive really bad when i travel slow, i tend to loose focus on the driving and start thinking about what happened the night before just before i fell asleep or, the job i am going to, etc etc.

when i drive fast, i concentrate and focus of what is going on around me. 

I have a heavy duty truck license code EC  and a big bike license code A, can pretty much drive anything with wheels.

Unfortunately because i spend some much time on the road i have become a real South African driver. When I drive my taxi, i drive like a taxi driver.

I become one of those Aholes who everyone complains about. I get places, I put my indicator and i go, i drive right up the left side and push in right at the front, etc etc. You dont like do it, do it as well then you dont have to bitch about it. Nothing is going to change, this is Africa, if anything it is only going to get worse. 

The biggest problem with people on the road is they are toooo busy worrying about what everyone else is doing on the road,  skrik that someone might take the gap in front of them, or the taxi driver pushing in 30 cars in front of then, than focusing on getting to their destination. I am a lot happier driving amongst taxi drivers than half the tossers on the road.

Wake up, drive fast, drive defensively and focus on what you are doing and stop worrying about every else on the road, you will be a happier person with less road rage.

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Chrisjan B (09-Aug-14)

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## ians

by the way, getting your nikkers in a knot only gets you worked up. The person you are ranting about had already forgotten about you within 2 minutes of the incident. I use to be super aggressive with huge road rage, getting into blows on the side of the road, now i just smile and take the gap, i have have insurance  :Smile:

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## adrianh

> Wake up, drive fast, drive defensively and focus on what you are doing and stop worrying about every else on the road, you will be a happier person with less road rage.


I fully agree with you. My moer gets totally stripped when people keep pushing etc. I make a point of concentrating on something else so that whatever is going on doesn't get on my nerves. It sure ain't easy but it does help...f*ck 'm, let the rest of them f*ck up their own Chi....I'll rather try to relax and watch them battle it out!

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## Houses4Rent

This cannot be answered so easily. It depends... E.g. I was working part time for years as a youngster for rental car companies in Germany. Often long distances on the Autobahn pedal to the metal (traffic permitting), often close to or beyond 200 Km/h. Never had an accident. This was not really a problem as all people in Germany have to take a lot of driving lessons before they do their test (skill). Even driving lessons on the Autobahn are compulsory. Roads are generally good (road quality) and most cars are good too (technical standards). The law is usually abided by and the fast lanes are really the faster lanes. That is all very different here, however most cars here are advanced too now even in RSA. 
It was quite a challenge when the Berlin wall fell and the Trabbi's came onto our roads. They outside shell is not made from metal. Some called it cardboard. They were slow (100 km/h max at a push) and their drivers had no idea that others can easily be double their speed. I am sure that caused lots of accidents back then.

Today I am riding a 170cc scooter since 6 years which developed my foresight/awareness much more. 

I also have a heavy duty truck license code EC and a big bike license code A. I can pretty much drive anything with wheels up to 20 tones.

Luckily nowadays I do not spend much time driving any more. Our family car only clocks up 10000km a year.


All in all

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## Blurock

Speed does not kill - stupidity does.

When I was younger I always drove fast on the open road (never in town!) and tried to beat my previous best. Never had an accident. On the autobahn there are sections with no speed limits. The only accidents that happen is because of stupidity when people do not switch their lights on and slow down in misty conditions. Statistics confirm that the autobahn is the safest road in the world. 

On our roads one has to negotiate obstacles travelling at anything from 30 kph to 100 kph. There are countries where they have a minimum speed on certain roads. It won't work here because we allow horse drawn carriages and broken down jalopies on the road.

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## adrianh

Don't kid yourself, speed kills. Although I love driving fast, there is no denying it. The faster you go the more likely you are yo get into serious trouble if something goes wrong. Sh1t happens, tires burst, animals run across the road, oncoming traffic overtake into your lane, the other guy falls asleep and crosses into your lane...etc

I used to drive a Nissan 200SX Turbo and I soon realized that it's better for me to sell the car because the urge to drive at 200km/h + is going to get me or somebody else killed.

My mother in law rolled her car one night when her left front tie rod snapped on her Jetta. Thankfully she was wearing her seat belt. 

The bigger picture is that we cannot decide which laws are ok to break. One person thinks its ok to speed, another that it is ok to skip a robot etc.

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## Houses4Rent

The biggest problem in my mind in RSA is not wearing a seat belt, not using children/baby seats etc. Even at slower speeds this will cause much more harm than without them.
Even silly traffic cops do not wear them - so much for leading by example. Do yourself a favour and count how many people wear a belt. Just look at the drivers of oncoming traffic in urban traffic. You will be horrified.

My bad is not wearing a belt in the back seat as I have not formed an automatic habit about it, but then I can count these occasions in my one hand. In the front the reach for the belt is automatic.

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## pmbguy

Speed reduces reaction time and reaction options. You are less capable to deal with changes in the environment the faster you go – difficult to argue against that. There are some exceptions where speed is safer. Evading a threat (or object) or using your vehicle offensively etc. 

Competency is crucial, but it does not eliminate the speed-danger factor it only mitigates it. A good driver is competent in both vehicle and environmental awareness  -and must have his/her head screwed on right.

In town I drive relatively fast, more like nippy, but I don’t ever speed around. I certainly don’t make the wheels spin, that’s just vulgar. On the highway or long road I go up to 120 with my daughter or wife in the car, if I am alone I go up to 140, rarely over that. I never take blind risks. When I was a teenager I had my fair share of accidents and write offs and it made me wiser. 

I don’t know, but sometimes I wish we here in Natal could drive more like you Highveld guys and girls, you know how to drive. 

As for seatbelts, I always wear it on the highway/long road, but never for just town driving.

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## Houses4Rent

Maybe you should try to hit a wall/truck etc with 40 km/h or even slower without a seat belt and see what happens. I doubt you will look good after that.

I feel the faster I go (up to the speed limit) the more alert/focussed I am. If I am just cruising along slowly my mind wanders.... which in occasion has made me miss turn offs.

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## pmbguy

I had a head on at about 60km/h and I did not fly out the car, but did hit my head rather hard on the steering wheel. A child on the other hand will fly out the car at 60km, so my daughter always always sits in her kiddy chair and always wears the seatbelt. I will not even reverse out the driveway without her totally secured. 

I also get a bit dreamy if I drive too slow. In town I try and chase down the green robot and cut seconds and minutes from the trip, I just hate waiting - generally. I get very frustrated when my wife drives, not that she is particularly slow, its just that she won't take gaps like I do and will often slow down for something she could easily drive around. Wait Don't get me started on the damn learner drivers. There is an area in PMB that seems to be designated as a practice zone. Sometimes 3 cars in front of me are all learner drivers, often passing them is just impossible...so you wait. I would rather not say what goes on in my head at such times.

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## adrianh

My family and I always wear seatbelts, it's one of those things that become a habit. You may do 60Km/h in town but another fool may be doing 120km/h and skip your robot. Seatbelts are exactly like motor cycle helmets, you may be a brilliant rider who obeys the law, who has the best training in the world...but you have no control over what the other person does nor about sh1t that happens. Not if you fall, when you fall you are going to hit the tar. You choose to protect your face or not. Imagine what you will do when you look up from the speedometer at 60km/h and the guy coming in the opposite direction blows a tire and swerves across the road 5m in front of you. 

You cannot argue that seat belts save lives. 

Spend a couple of hours looking at dash cam crash videos on YouTube, you will soon realize that sh1t happens, that speed kills and that seatbelts save live. 

Like I said, I love driving in general and driving fast but we unfortunately share roads with many others and as such have to take care not only to protect ourselves but also to protect them. We can only do this by being mindful and aware of our surrounding and not only of their actions but also the outcome our actions may have on them. You may have ABS and be able to brake perfectly or whatever wonderful gadget that saves your ass...but the other guy may not have all that stuff.

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## pmbguy

I am a great advocate of seatbelts, but for me personally driving in town robot to robot seems pointless wearing one. As soon as there is speed I buckle up. I know I know I should always have it on etc etc, but I don’t care

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## adrianh

> I am a great advocate of seatbelts, but for me personally driving in town robot to robot seems pointless wearing one. As soon as there is speed I buckle up. I know I know I should always have it on etc etc, but I don’t care


Maybe, but remember that some d00s may just skip that robot and smack you. Wearing seatbelts is just another habit to develop. Remember that kids do what you do, not what you say. (I say this with your kiddie in mind) My girls have always known that that is the way it works because mu wife and I have always does it.

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## Houses4Rent

Hm, maybe picture yourself the traffic from the side skipping a robot and hitting your drivers side with 60 km/h.  Make that a heavy duty truck (with failing breaks or just a dumb driver on the cell phone) for more convincing power.

I would also say you have been pretty lucky to only hit your head on the steering wheel when you crashed at 60 km/h. If the other car was moving to (head on) you are double lucky. You must have been buckled up to not fly out/against the windscreen. An after this experience you still do not wear a belt in town? What did you learn from this crash then? Buy at least a car with air bag.

I am also sure my kids get a fit if the car starts rolling and they are not buckled up yet, because they see that we never drive without one.

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## Dave S

I notice how just about every post here is about SPEED, but there is little mention of anything else, we have become sensitised to the 'speed hype' because of the way the law perceives it as 'easy money', but there is so much else going on the driving front. I can't remember when I last observed a driver obeying (or even knowing) the law at a 4-way stop, I rarely ever see anyone that looks both ways when turning left at an intersection, robots just seem to be coloured lights that don't have any true significance, un-roadworthy vehicles seems to be the "norm", nobody seems to know when to use the lights or when a 'Fog-light' is appropriate, and the list goes on.

I have never researched it, but I would be willing to bet that the instances where speeding has caused the accident, is less than 0.5% or even lower. I think that driving too slowly is more dangerous than driving too fast, both within reason. Typically I like to get on the road, go where I want to be, and get off the road in as little time and as safely as possible, if I am held up by slow drivers it is frustrating and I find myself having to concentrate on watching the car ahead instead of watching what I am doing, while looking for a gap to overtake, hazard potential is 100%, accident potential is somewhere around 40% (just guesstimates as there is no real way to actually measure), and if this slow driver is one of those inconsiderate 'Fog Light Bandits', then I have to do all this with bright light in my eyes. Yes, I can just slow down and pull back, increase the following distance and be on the road for 1-hour instead of 10-mins. Fortunately, I rarely have to drive in peak-hour traffic.

Too fast or too slow? easiest way to determine if this is you, If there is a line of cars behind you and open road in front, you're going too slow and causing a hazard. Likewise if there's open road behind you and a line of cars in front, you're going too fast and are creating a hazard.

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## Dave S

> I am a great advocate of seatbelts, but for me personally driving in town robot to robot seems pointless wearing one. As soon as there is speed I buckle up. I know I know I should always have it on etc etc, but I don’t care


The seatbelt protects the wearer and each individual should have the right to decide how well they wish to protect themselves, the point where it gets tricky is with children, will a child have enough experience/knowledge to make this decision for themselves? As Adrian has already said, children follow examples rather than rules.

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## pmbguy

I am a bad parent

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## adrianh

I think that the biggest cause of accidents is the "F*ck you, I do what I want attitude" I take my daughter to school in the morning and there is always some d00$ who feels that he has to push in right at the front. Not only does he p!$$ the row of cars off in the lane that he is trying to squeeze into, he also blocks the traffic up in the lane that he is getting out of.

I want to drive a old F250 that looks like absolute crap with rust and a heavy homemade I-beam bulbar that is about 10 inches too wide. It will have a bullet proof cage and windows, a first class chassis, suspension, automatic gearbox, limited slip diff and a V8 with a blower. Of course it won't have crap like insurance and it will be registered to my terribly poor redneck cousin. I would then misjudge the width of the bulbar all the time and remove various parts of those offending a$$holes "F*ck you - mobiles" (the privileged knobhead this morning was driving a Audi A5 with a local registration) 

You see, this is where road rage comes from, some twat who thinks that he is special.

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Dave A (15-Aug-14)

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## adrianh

> I am a bad parent


Aye well, my wife and I were talking about my 13 year old daughter this morning. She is very headstrong and does what she wants. If you really want her to be obtuse then try and force her to do something. My wife and I agree that she takes after me. We agree that she was born with the "A don't give $h1t" gene, just like me. You know, when you $h1t on her she sits there and glares at you and you can literally see the "Go f*ck yourself" in her eyes. I can't say that it intimidates me but it sure winds everybody else up.

There is one thing to remember and it is that the kids have minds of their own and they need to learn to think for themselves. It doesn't always work to tell them what to do, sometimes they need to learn the hard way. So what I am saying is that all you can do is to protect them (even from themselves) as well as you can but ultimately it is up to them, when they are old enough, to make sensible decisions for themselves.

Let me tell you a little story; we used to own a VW Kombi when my eldest daughter was about one or two, I don't remember. We always put her in her car seat on the 1st bench behind the drivers seat. So one day our "garden engineer" washed the car beautifully and sommer washed the car seat as well. He put the seat back in the car and all was ok. I took my daughter with me to a shop or something and everything was fine until a car suddenly stopped in front of me because the guy decided that it was just the right time to turn right. It hit the brake hard and heard a hell of a crash behind me. I looked back and saw that the entire car seat had flown across the kombi and hit the back of my seat. The car seat was lying face down on the floor and I can tell you I $h@t myself. Luckily she was ok and I suppose her forehead must have smacked the mid section (the soft part) of the back of my seat. I checked the seatbelt and it was clear that the "garden engineer" didn't strap the car seat in. I wasn't speeding or anything, it was in the middle of town and I couldn't have been doing much more than 60. The reason that the seat went flying was simply because of its mass and the sudden deceleration (f=ma) I think that it was that day when I realized that a human becomes a flying meat bomb if not strapped in. I never drove nor allowed anybody to drive with me unless they are strapped in. My kids know the dangers because I've shown them videos of people getting ejected from cars (even at low speeds when the cars are hit from the side)

I suppose wearing a seatbelt is like wearing a condom. You will be fine 99.9999% of the time. The problem is that 1 unexpected time when it goes wrong. Yes of course seatbelts and condoms are not 100% effective but on balance they are more effective than no protection. My view is that it is foolish not to use safety measures that are free and proven to be effective.

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## Blurock

> I am a great advocate of seatbelts, but for me personally driving in town robot to robot seems pointless wearing one. As soon as there is speed I buckle up. I know I know I should always have it on etc etc, but I dont care


There is just one thing more stupid/negligent than not buckling up, that is to have an unrestrained child or baby on the front seat. The poor child's face will not look so nice after its been through the windscreen.

According to statistics, most accidents happen within 5 km from home. There is more chance of being hit by a moron in town, than on the open road. A drunk driver coming from the pub, a mommy talking on her cell phone on the way to/from school, while trying to referee the kiddies fighting on the back seat.

All I can say is; your life is in danger and you may end up becoming a statistic. You still don't care?

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## wynn

Drive with the attitude that everybody else is an 'arsehole' and everything is trying to get you (the other traffic, potholes, pedestrians, cattle, wind whatever) that way you will be alert to danger.

'SPEED KILLS' simply because the impact is greater, if you are turning left at a stop street and at the same time an oncoming car from your left decides that is the exact time he needs to overtake and swerves into his right lane and semi Tbones you as you enter the intersection even though you took the necessary precaution of looking left, right and left again checking that the lane was clear before you advanced, you are more likely to be dead if he was traveling at 120 than at 60, though you may be hurt at 60, remember that if you are both traveling at 60 a head on is the same as driving into a wall at 120!

I found that after a few years experience driving, even though you are alert all the time, there is a part of your brain that remains on autopilot and starts flashing warning signals when something is out of the ordinary, like when you are approaching a bridge and you notice a car speeding down the opposite embankment and your autopilot has noticed that there is loose gravel in the road on his approach which could cause him to drift towards the center of the road, your autopilot realizes that the road is narrowed by the railings of the bridge, you automatically slow down, even though your conscious doesn't realize why, so that you are not at that point if it happens!

Your normal brain sees the cattle grazing on the side of the road (lots of them in the Transkei and Ciskei) so you automatically take precautions and slow down, your autopilot then notices in your peripheral vision that the cow at the back of the herd lifted its head and flashes that this girl is going to move, so you automatically slow down some more without your conscious realizing it.

There is a joke in the Eastern Cape that cattle are yield signs, horses are stop signs and those little black pigs are accidents waiting to happen. (thank goodness the swine flu epidemic got rid of most of those, but they are on the increase again)

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Dave A (15-Aug-14)

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## Houses4Rent

> Let me tell you a little story; we used to own a VW Kombi when my eldest daughter was about one or two, I don't remember. We always put her in her car seat on the 1st bench behind the drivers seat. So one day our "garden engineer" washed the car beautifully and sommer washed the car seat as well. He put the seat back in the car and all was ok. I took my daughter with me to a shop or something and everything was fine until a car suddenly stopped in front of me because the guy decided that it was just the right time to turn right. It hit the brake hard and heard a hell of a crash behind me. I looked back and saw that the entire car seat had flown across the kombi and hit the back of my seat. The car seat was lying face down on the floor and I can tell you I $h@t myself. Luckily she was ok and I suppose her forehead must have smacked the mid section (the soft part) of the back of my seat. I checked the seatbelt and it was clear that the "garden engineer" didn't strap the car seat in. I wasn't speeding or anything, it was in the middle of town and I couldn't have been doing much more than 60. The reason that the seat went flying was simply because of its mass and the sudden deceleration (f=ma) I think that it was that day when I realized that a human becomes a flying meat bomb if not strapped in. I never drove nor allowed anybody to drive with me unless they are strapped in. My kids know the dangers because I've shown them videos of people getting ejected from cars (even at low speeds when the cars are hit from the side)


I had same experience, not caused by my garden engineer, but by my premium "we care" Volkswagen mechanic. At a service they wash and hover the car and then they did not put the seat back in properly. My child went flying at a fast-ish corner, but luckily unhurt, but stressed. I was livid and complained at highest levels incl Dealership owner and Volkswagen SA head office for negligence. All I got was a lame apology. Next service I explicitly instructed not to touch the car seats. Guess what. They learnt nothing from the previous episode. On return I checked and the seats were lose again. Damn idiots. Next time I told them NOT to clean the car at all as I did not want to risk that I forget the check the car seats upon return. Then my maintenance contract expired and from then on I took it to my private (ex Barons) mechanic who does not clean it anyway, but is better and cheaper.

So all this "service obsession" causes huge risks. Checks yours after each service or garden engineer intervention.

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## pmbguy

> There is just one thing more stupid/negligent than not buckling up, that is to have an unrestrained child or baby on the front seat. The poor child's face will not look so nice after its been through the windscreen.
> 
> According to statistics, most accidents happen within 5 km from home. There is more chance of being hit by a moron in town, than on the open road. A drunk driver coming from the pub, a mommy talking on her cell phone on the way to/from school, while trying to referee the kiddies fighting on the back seat.


I don’t know why you said this after quoting me because clearly we agree




> A child on the other hand will fly out the car at 60km, so my daughter always always sits in her kiddy chair and always wears the seatbelt. I will not even reverse out the driveway without her totally secured.


Like I said my daughter always wears her seatbelt. She has never sat in front or outside her special chair, she is not allowed to stand or move around the car at all. I always wear my seatbelt as soon as I go over 60km. I have never driven a long road without a seatbelt. I am a fan of the seatbelt it saves lives everyday... all that I am saying is that I personally don’t wear one driving below 60. Yes I am sure it would be safer for me if I did. I feel the likelihood of Me getting flung out my car under 60 to be small enough not to wear one, call me a rebel. 

I agree that setting an example is important and I want my daughter to wear her seatbelt as habit at any speed so I am willing to wear it whenever she is in the car starting today.

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## Houses4Rent

Good, we are making progress  :Stick Out Tongue: . 
How about your 60 km/h plus the oncoming 60 km/h = 120 Km/h? Still not worth the wear a belt?

How do you do that anyway? In town one easily goes slightly above and below 60 km/h. Do you then constantly buckle up and out or hit the brakes once you reached over 60? And then make people like me wonder why people brake for no reason at all with nobody in front of them.

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## pmbguy

> How do you do that anyway? In town one easily goes slightly above and below 60 km/h. Do you then constantly buckle up and out or hit the brakes once you reached over 60? And then make people like me wonder why people brake for no reason at all with nobody in front of them.


I hired a trained (Ex circus) monkey to stare at the speedometer and buckle or unbuckle me constantly as my speed fluctuates above or below 60.

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adrianh (11-Aug-14)

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## Houses4Rent

> I hired a trained (Ex circus) monkey to stare at the speedometer and buckle or unbuckle me constantly as my speed fluctuates above or below 60.


Ah, that is in line with the name of the thread then. The insanity will most certainly first set in with the monkey though. Beware the SPCA is watching you. Do animals don't have to be secured too? Probably not, but on a more serious note a heavy pet can smack a passenger pretty badly when coming flying past. So the monkey might get splashed over your windscreen or hit you on your back or become insane or all of the above.

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## Dave A

> Hm, maybe picture yourself the traffic from the side skipping a robot and hitting your drivers side with 60 km/h.  Make that a heavy duty truck (with failing breaks or just a dumb driver on the cell phone) for more convincing power.


As someone who has been on the receiving end of just such a doos, I can advise that in the event of a side impact, your seatbelt is worth very little if it's a hit on your side (as long as the vehicle doesn't roll, I guess).

In my case the guy ran a red light, unfortunately for him with a camera trap on it. Speed was calculated at 93 kmph and he went through 5.2 seconds after the red light.

There were a few things that saved my ass that day:
The centre point of his impact on my vehicle was only marginally back of my front wheels, so most of the energy was dissipated in a spin when it came to my vehicle. If it was an impact on the driver's door or centre doorpost, I'm not sure I'd be here to tell this tale.I was in a Jetta 3 and he was in one of those early Hyundai hatch things I think (I forget the model name right now), and there's no doubt - weight matters at times like these.Blind luck. And I do mean *blind* luck (I was struck on the driver's side and the Landrover on the right of me obscured the view. The occupants were great witnesses though).
I got lucky - just ended up with a pretty badly bruised foot really. 

The driver of the other vehicle was less fortunate - apart from heavy bruising from his seatbelt, he also suffered amnesia and couldn't recall what happened (seems a seatbelt doesn't help much on that front either).

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## CLIVE-TRIANGLE

In 40 years of driving cars and bikes, I have had only one accident. That was way back in the day, my beetle met a horse in the early hours of the morning. The horse removed the roof and had we been wearing seat belts, I and my passenger would have been decapitated.

But I don't use that as an excuse. Both my cars warning buzzers are so loud and annoying that it is nigh impossible to ignore.

My son's Alfa on the other hand will wreck your ear drums if you ignore it.

The original question about relative speed is a really good one. But there is a bit of a flaw there, in that no two drivers have the same skill sets.

I was a clerk of the course for a number of years, up to national championship level, and this issue was demonstrated at every race. Situations that would cause some drivers to lose the plot, are taken in stride by others. I also see this when my son drives me; he drives really fast (without speeding, he just does things very quickly) but way safer than me. He anticipates problems far better and sometimes is aware of issues before they happen, where I only became aware of them after they happen. So, regardless of the speed, he is always better equipped than I to deal with anything. 

Then, and this is not a criticism of anybody, people should really, really try to keep their cool when driving. There are far more d00ses than non-d00ses and getting upset is exhausting  :Smile: . I generally have a short temper, or so I am told, but for some reason a'holes never get me annoyed; at most I will shake my head. It's not something I learned or anything, it just is that way. Now when either my wife or son drive, I reckon their blood rush threatens them with a seizure and it achieves absolutely squat. I find I can criticize and curse, but I don't get angry, and anger and driving don't mix well.

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## adrianh

> As someone who has been on the receiving end of just such a doos, I can advise that in the event of a side impact, your seatbelt is worth very little if it's a hit on your side (as long as the vehicle doesn't roll, I guess).
> 
> In my case the guy ran a red light, unfortunately for him with a camera trap on it. Speed was calculated at 93 kmph and he went through 5.2 seconds after the red light.
> 
> There were a few things that saved my ass that day:
> The centre point of his impact on my vehicle was only marginally back of my front wheels, so most of the energy was dissipated in a spin when it came to my vehicle. If it was an impact on the driver's door or centre doorpost, I'm not sure I'd be here to tell this tale.I was in a Jetta 3 and he was in one of those early Hyundai hatch things I think (I forget the model name right now), and there's no doubt - weight matters at times like these.Blind luck. And I do mean *blind* luck (I was struck on the driver's side and the Landrover on the right of me obscured the view. The occupants were great witnesses though).
> I got lucky - just ended up with a pretty badly bruised foot really. 
> 
> The driver of the other vehicle was less fortunate - apart from heavy bruising from his seatbelt, he also suffered amnesia and couldn't recall what happened (seems a seatbelt doesn't help much on that front either).


My sister in law was involved in a similar accident. They stopped to turn right into a road. They had a stop sight but the road they were turning into had no stops. The road rises to the left and falls away. So, if you were travelling towards them you would go up a hill and then come down towards them. They use the road often and everybody knows that if the left is clear then a can travelling at 60 wont reach them when they turn right into the road. Except when the clever dick in his BMW 325 is doing 140 in the build up area. They were in a old Toyota Corolla and they were also hit just behind the left front wheel. My sister in law was a passenger in the left front seat. Her knee was shattered and her angle was crushed. The Corolla and the BM were both totalled. It happened about 18 months ago and she still has to undergo numerous operations t repair the damage to her ankle. 

I think that seatbelts do more good than bad. Yes the belt didn't make a difference to her but it sure did to the people in the BMW.

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## jimmyjjohn

Thanks

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## Peachless

All these problems could be reduced if South Africans get with the program and start installing dashboard cameras like other first world countries. Then all drivers could be monitored fairly on the roads.

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