# Regulatory Compliance Category > BEE and Employment Equity Forum >  BBBEE wrong

## wynn

Solidarity says what we have been saying all along!  :- see http://business.iafrica.com/news/847953.html

"Black economic empowerment (BEE) is to the detriment of all South Africans, including blacks, trade union Solidarity said on Wednesday.

It was for this reason recommending that the Broad-Based Black Economic Empowerment Amendment Bill of 2012 be withdrawn, it said in a statement.

The union made the proposal during a presentation to Parliament's portfolio committee on trade and industry on Wednesday.

Solidarity research institute senior economic researcher Piet le Roux said the bill's purpose was to enable the government to enforce current BEE legislation more stringently.

"The amendment bill will result in all South Africans being disadvantaged, including those who are supposed to benefit from BEE.

"The bill will lead to even more resources being made available to relatively less competent entrepreneurs -- black, coloured, Indian and white -- those entrepreneurs who would not make the grade without government assistance."

This meant fewer consumer goods would be available to all South Africans. The cost of the project would fall on ordinary consumers, who would have to pay more for basic goods.

Le Roux said it was important to remember it was not just "less competent" black entrepreneurs who benefit from artificial investment, but also whites.

"White entrepreneurs who would not have made it in the market, but who somehow managed to get a black, coloured or Indian BEE partner, are being kept in business at the expense of consumers," he said.

Not all emerging entrepreneurs depended on government assistance, but BEE enabled weaker entrepreneurs to do business in an artificial and unsustainable way.

"Consumers in the market reveal the most effective entrepreneurs through their spending patterns. The most effective entrepreneurs are those who are able to offer consumers the greatest flow of goods and services in the cheapest way," said Le Roux.

Investors took note of spending patterns and, based on these, allocated resources to entrepreneurs. BEE replaced this consumer-driven allocation with a politically-driven process.

When there was political interference, resources tended to flow to less effective entrepreneurs.

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KristiKat (06-Mar-14)

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## Justloadit

You think the government really cares what the Solidarity Trade Union says?
They have simply dismissed the public outcry with respect to e-Tolls, why would they budge what is filling their pockets right now.
It's like saying "No, I do not want any more free eggs from the Golden goose".

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KristiKat (06-Mar-14)

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## Blurock

Organisations such as NAFCOC and the Black Business Forum agrees that BEE is wrong. What they want in stead is not 51% black ownership, they want 100%. It is not because they are racist, they just like black. Competence and ability does not play a role at all.

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KristiKat (06-Mar-14)

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## Dave A

The fact that Solidarity wants BBBEE scrapped entirely, and the BBF wants to have 100% ownership as the supreme criterium should not surprise anyone. I can't think of a single area where these two organisations share common ground.




> Not all emerging entrepreneurs depended on government assistance, but BEE enabled weaker entrepreneurs to do business in an artificial and unsustainable way.


They're bang on the money there, and at first blush it might seem their strongest point made. The problem is the point fails as long as BBBEE is viewed as a temporary intervention.

At this point I don't know which is going to end up being the bigger problem in the long run, the economic handicap SA places on itself keeping BBBEE going, or the problem gov is going to face when it runs out of moral ground to justify the continuation of BBBEE policies.

I guess the question I'd like answered is - if it is temporary (however long that might be), what is the exit strategy?

It might seem a crazy question to require an answer right now, but when you start with the end in mind - the answer will probably be a better indicator of what government should be doing at this point than what the various "vested interest" groupings are throwing at them.

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Blurock (12-Dec-13)

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## cyppokagain

Market Ticker posted this article a few days ago.
http://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=226617

that one linked to this one
http://market-ticker.org/akcs-www?post=226605

Btw I don't think any intervention the gov't proposes is ever temporary. It has to blow up in their face really badly for it to be retracted.

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## Slow Blow

I'm all for BBBEE, Broad Based "British" Economic Empowerment :Cool:

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## Blurock

> I'm all for BBBEE, Broad Based "British" Economic Empowerment


Slow Blow has it all wrong. We are no longer a British colony. It should be Broad Based Boss Economic Empowerment.
The Boss can not pay you if he has no money, dumbass. :Crazy: 



PS. Dumbass in this case are the ones wanting to implement BBBEE; Government and the unions.

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KristiKat (06-Mar-14)

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## pmbguy

I think that all non blacks must paint themselves black Or all blacks paint themselves white. Then we can end our Racist laws!

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## Blurock

> I think that all non blacks must paint themselves black Or all blacks paint themselves white. Then we can end our Racist laws!


So what did you expect from a racist government?

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KristiKat (06-Mar-14)

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## pmbguy

South Africa is currently a racist state, where your race determines how government treats you. It has become normal that racist laws and racism against white people is somehow seen as OK. We simply changed one set of racist laws into another. Regime change was never about equality, it was about power. They don’t want to be our equals they want to be our masters.

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desA (17-Feb-14), Slow Blow (19-Feb-14)

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## KristiKat

> Btw I don't think any intervention the gov't proposes is ever temporary. It has to blow up in their face really badly for it to be retracted.


well democracy blowed up in their faces, did they retract that?

no I think they enjoy the chaos and freedom that comes with it.

There is no responsibility to have when you can do anything.

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## KristiKat

> So what did you expect from a racist government?


true they made democracy a joke.

there are no equal rights for MEN,

I DON'T THINK THEY REALIZE,

that when this all goes down in history,

they won't be remembered as "mandiba's peaceful disciples",

the very thought of SOUTH AFRICA'S leaders TODAY would leave a foul taste in the mouths of historians all over the world.

enforcing a "reverse racism" and calling it a DEMOCRACY,

i mean you would have expected the UN to take action by now,

to force the BLACK leaders to FOLLOW THE LAWS they promised to uphold with MANDELA'S constitution.

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## Blurock

I met a nice young man in the the hardware store today. Speaks Zulu, English and Afrikaans fluently (not one of them his home language) with very good manners and also a good salesman. Excellent people skills. 

With the right guidance I think he may be management material as he has very good people skills. Unfortunately Zweli may never reach his potential, as incompetent fools are being appointed at the top due to BBEEEE and corruption. The incompetent manager will destroy the business causing this friendly salesman to also lose his job when the business eventually close down. :Frown:

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KristiKat (08-Mar-14)

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## KristiKat

> I met a nice young man in the the hardware store today. Speaks Zulu, English and Afrikaans fluently (not one of them his home language) with very good manners and also a good salesman. Excellent people skills. 
> 
> With the right guidance I think he may be management material as he has very good people skills. Unfortunately Zweli may never reach his potential, as incompetent fools are being appointed at the top due to BBEEEE and corruption. The incompetent manager will destroy the business causing this friendly salesman to also lose his job when the business eventually close down.


What do you mean?

Is there inter-politics in the BEE community?

I mean that only certain blacks will get promotions?

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## KristiKat

oh okay I get what you are saying now,

that ANY black person would get promoted,

no matter what his skills, talents or potential are.

mmm....

well said.

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## Blurock

> What do you mean?
> 
> Is there inter-politics in the BEE community?
> 
> I mean that only certain blacks will get promotions?


The (politically) well connected is thriving on BEE. Most of the BEE appointees have no clue of what they are doing. One only has to look at the mismanagement of state institutions where cadres have been employed; municipalities and parastatals such as Eskom. 

Competent employees have to a great extent been replaced by the politically connected. Talent and ability is not rewarded, only the political affiliation. Because of that, a bright young man such as Zweli may never get a chance to show his ability and rise through the ranks. How do you expect an incompetent manager to identify talent?

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Chrisjan B (09-Mar-14), KristiKat (09-Mar-14)

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## Chrisjan B

You cannot keep a good man down.....

He will find his place.

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## ians

I got a call two days ago from a BBEEE person who was looking for a competent person to do work for him, because I am assuming he had acquired a contract, but didn't have a clue what it was all about, just needed some one to do the work at a fee less than he had tendered. The way I determined this was by asking him a few technical questions with regards to the scope of work  :Frown:  

At first I thought it was a prank someone was trying to play on me, getting this person to get me worked up.

I started thinking maybe I should get involved and offer my service, if the person who handed out the contract was stupid enough to give it to a person who hasn't a clue about what he is doing, why not just start a company as a front put a chair and table in a rented room with an old PC to look like an office, ride it and give them dummy info. collect as much money I can knowing I will get shafted eventually, who cares tit for tat. Who will take the fall if I am not the person who signed the deal. 

It is sad to think that this is how I am starting to think living in this country, like red robots, somebody mentioned that people slow down for them, honestly I don't even slow down for them if they have just turned red. However I always check before I pull away when a robot turns green knowing how I and many others are thinking.

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## adrianh

> It is sad to think that this is how I am starting to think living in this country, like red robots, somebody mentioned that people slow down for them, honestly I don't even slow down for them if they have just turned red. However I always check before I pull away when a robot turns green knowing how I and many others are thinking.



You know, this is rather profound in that our thinking has shifted from following the law to doing whatever little it takes to stay alive because nobody follows the law.

Some people do things because it is the law, some do things for fear of the consequences if they get caught when not, and some don't give a $h1t one way or another....

I find myself, as ians does, in the latter group!

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## Chrisjan B

And this is precisely why our country is in such a bad state! 

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk

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Blurock (09-Mar-14)

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## adrianh

....I prefer to refer to it as "majority rule"

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## KristiKat

> The (politically) well connected is thriving on BEE. Most of the BEE appointees have no clue of what they are doing. One only has to look at the mismanagement of state institutions where cadres have been employed; municipalities and parastatals such as Eskom. 
> 
> Competent employees have to a great extent been replaced by the politically connected. Talent and ability is not rewarded, only the political affiliation. Because of that, a bright young man such as Zweli may never get a chance to show his ability and rise through the ranks. How do you expect an incompetent manager to identify talent?


wonder why is that?

the more brain dead people that works for the HIGHER SYSTEM in place,

the more power they maintain over the masses

to ensure that no real change is ever made by people who really can.




> And this is precisely why our country is in such a bad state!


they want it this way...

the more chaos is going on in the bottom feeder community,

the more they can get away with corruption behind the "smoke" screens....

people are forced to be occupied with their chaos,

and don't have time to THINK ABOUT correcting bigger problems.




> ....I prefer to refer to it as "majority rule"


is it a majority rule if it threatens to prejudice people in the so called "majority"?

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## Justloadit

@ians,

The only concern I have with this type of deal, is if I am going to get paid for services rendered.
9 out of 10 times, they have no money, and expect you to use your funds to complete the job. They get paid, and all of a sudden the urge to buy that new car with the new found wealth overwhelms them, and you left in the dwang.

Seen this happen a couple of times. 

If they can not fund the project from the onset, move on, it will be cheaper for you.

Had a situation like a few months ago, the deal was a 6 figure sum, but I had to supply the goods to x who would supply the municipality.
So I said, 80% with order, balance before you collect. His answer was - "so I must finance the municipality?", and my answer was "Mr that is your problem, the way I do business is COD". Well he was bust a couple of months later, he had been waiting a almost a year for a previous contract. Had I supplied, I would have been bust.

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KristiKat (09-Mar-14)

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## KristiKat

> @ians,
> 
> The only concern I have with this type of deal, is if I am going to get paid for services rendered.
> 9 out of 10 times, they have no money, and expect you to use your funds to complete the job. They get paid, and all of a sudden the urge to buy that new car with the new found wealth overwhelms them, and you left in the dwang.
> 
> Seen this happen a couple of times. 
> 
> If they can not fund the project from the onset, move on, it will be cheaper for you.


one word: TAX.

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## Blurock

> ....I prefer to refer to it as "majority rule"


...and we all know that  the majority of people on this planet are plain stupid. How else do you explain them voting for people who steal from you? People who don't give a damn and are only interested in enriching themselves. Anarchists, murderers, war mongers, corrupt liars. People with no morals whatsoever.

Look at governments all over the world and what they do. Stupid people vote them into power. They live among us, and there are many more of them than people with common sense.

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KristiKat (09-Mar-14)

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## KristiKat

smart people DO NOT VOTE because they know it is useless,

the ZOMBIES are the majority

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## Blurock

> smart people DO NOT VOTE because they know it is useless,
> 
> the ZOMBIES are the majority


By not voting, you are giving the Zombies a free hand. You have to vote to cancel the vote of at least one Zombie.   :Shoot:

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## KristiKat

it won't work,

government stays the same throughout centuries,

the populous would always suffer and be exploited under those who are in control...........

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## adrianh

It is said that "when in Rome do as the Romans do"...Are we now to be told that "When in South Africa DO NOT do as the South Africans do"

This doesn't make sense, 45million people behave like complete fools yet 5 million are expected to do the right thing...

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KristiKat (09-Mar-14)

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## KristiKat

there is no HOPE for this country or any other country for that regard....

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## Slow Blow

> smart people DO NOT VOTE because they know it is useless,
> 
> the ZOMBIES are the majority


That must make me a smart Zombie, or is that Mombie, err whatever. I have been thinking about this evil satanic curiosity, the vote, am going into politics to cement my view over the populace and filter my body into peoples hearts and minds.
So remember, You will now do as you are told, until the rights to You are sold.

My 2 cents, use it don't use it. :Batman:

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## Blurock

A baby learns to walk one step at a time. It does not tell its mother "I cannot walk, so let me crawl for the rest of my life". 

If we want change, we must be the change agents. Apathy will get us nowhere. Don't have a defeatist attitude. There are a lot of positive things happening in this country. We can choose to be builders or breakers. We can set an example or we can follow the herd. 

Choice is yours. :Yes:

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Dave A (10-Mar-14), Mike C (10-Mar-14), pmbguy (11-Mar-14)

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## Justloadit

> there is no HOPE for this country or any other country for that regard....


Summing it up, there is no hope for the planet then, WTF, just nuke the place and start again.

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## adrianh

> Summing it up, there is no hope for the planet then, WTF, just nuke the place and start again.


No no, there is no hope for the planet so live like there is no tomorrow!

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## adrianh

> there is no HOPE for this country or any other country for that regard....


Democracy works like this...the rulers decide who is in charge and the populous foolishly believe that they have any say!

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## Dave A

> the rulers decide who is in charge and the populous foolishly believe that they have any say!


That seems to be the inherent weakness of our current proportional representation setup - per force the elected representative's politician's allegiance has to be to his/her party, rather than to the electorate.

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## Blurock

> That seems to be the inherent weakness of our current proportional representation setup - per force the elected representative's politician's allegiance has to be to his/her party, rather than to the electorate.


and the inherent weakness of our populace is a defeatist attitude that allows the politicians to get away with all this bul$h!t. :Slap:

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## pmbguy

“You just sit there and tolerate it, the same way everything in this country is tolerated. Every deception, every lie, every bullet in the brains. Just as you are already tolerating bullets in the brains that will be implemented only after the bullet is put in your brains.” 

― Imre Kertész

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## wynn

The vast majority of the RSA population have nothing, own nothing and earn very little, they have nothing to loose by the 'bullshit' fed them by the cANCer except the feint hope of a better future.
The 'Nigger' in the woodpile (excuse the pun) is the *'bigger better promises'* made by one 'Julias Sello Malema who also has no intention of keeping even one promise, just like the present idiots.

But it is going to be interesting to see how many fools vote EFF

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## adrianh

@wynn....right on brother... when one views the government through the eyes of the masses they look like the second coming....when we view the government through our own eyes they look like dimwits...the majority does not look at the government through our eyes...

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## Blurock

So you agree that the majority are dimwits?

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## adrianh

> So you agree that the majority are dimwits?


Of course, but remember what you are taught to do when in Rome!

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## pmbguy

The problem with democracy is that everybody gets to vote with no IQ standards in place. So the stupid decide our fate. I would rather stay in a country where we have all the same human rights etc, but only those with an IQ score that lies in the top 49% gets to vote.

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## adrianh

> The problem with democracy is that everybody gets to vote with no IQ standards in place. So the stupid decide our fate. I would rather stay in a country where we have all the same human rights etc, but only those with an IQ score that lies in the top 49% gets to vote.


Doesn't work either because the one group will just ensure that the other groups get no education.

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## wynn

> Doesn't work either because the one group will just ensure that the other groups get no education.


Education should have nothing to do with IQ so how would you determine who votes or not.

I have a very intelligent 60yr old gardener who through circumstances cannot read or write but would have a high IQ if tested, trouble is how do you test an illiterate?

Incidentally he ensured that all his kids had the opportunity to attend school at great personal sacrifice, they are all literate but are still not permanently employed, so they are very subject to EFF or cANCer bullshit.

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## adrianh

Testing IQ without basic education is unrealistic. A person needs a certain amount of training to be able to apply deductive reasoning. The training I refer to is not a degree, it is basic reasoning skills.

Anyway, using IQ as a measure for who gets to vote is bizarre because clever people are not necessarily nice people nor good people. There are many highly intelligent psychopaths out there....just look at big business and politics.

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## pmbguy

My reasoning here is that intelligent people have a much better chance of understanding the situation and the solutions. Yes I agree that an IQ test is not ideal, I used it purely for example. A much broader measure is needed, that can accommodate dissimilarities between people etc etc etc – testing for intelligence. In any case no measure will be perfect and none of this will ever happen.

I reject the notion that somehow intelligence equals badness, a statistic positively showing this would be fractional and will certainly have no effect on the outcome of elections.

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## adrianh

I agree that intelligence doesn't necessarily reflect badness, but it also doesn't necessarily reflect goodness. I think that EQ may be a good measure to use as well as IQ (Then I'll never be allowed to vote)

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## pmbguy

Good one, when you add EQ to IQ it makes much more sense because you are essentially testing sociability by testing emotion – which relates to how well you chose your leaders – you understand what you and other people want and need.

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## adrianh

Exactly...

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## pmbguy

Ok so EQ and IQ each contribute equally to a single measurement.

Now everybody votes and completes the test anonymously. Then the counters arrange everybody’s votes according to how well they scored and only the top 49% have their vote counted.

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## Blurock

This demonstrates exactly how BBEEE works;

Company A had a tender and presumably performed a good service as they have been in this kind of business for more than 20 years.

When the tender came up for renewal, it was awarded to BBEEE at a higher than quoted price. BBEEE then re-appointed Company A to perform the same service, but at a higher rate than they had before, plus an up front implementation fee.

This suits Company A, who is now being paid more, but the performance risk, financial risk and dealing with all the potential problems now lies with BBEEE!

This is surely a win-win situation for the parties involved, but in the end it is us, the citizens and tax payers of this country who has to pay for the bulshit and corruption! :Rant1:

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## Justloadit

> When the tender came up for renewal, it was awarded to BBEEE at a higher than quoted price. BBEEE then re-appointed Company A to perform the same service, but at a higher rate than they had before, plus an up front implementation fee.


Not always so, on a number of occasions, the BBEEE kept the money, and company A is out of pocket with the investment in the stock and services provided, and after a few months the BBEEE liquidated. 

On a few other occasions the BBEEE company decided it would do the work, screwed it up, but were still able to collect initial payments and then were liquidated.

In the first instance a long standing company is forced to shrink to remain in business or even close down.
In the second instance the tender is requested again, and now at a higher rate because the initial work done, must be undone.

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## Blurock

> Not always so, on a number of occasions, the BBEEE kept the money, and company A is out of pocket with the investment in the stock and services provided, and after a few months the BBEEE liquidated. 
> 
> On a few other occasions the BBEEE company decided it would do the work, screwed it up, but were still able to collect initial payments and then were liquidated.
> 
> In the first instance a long standing company is forced to shrink to remain in business or even close down.
> In the second instance the tender is requested again, and now at a higher rate because the initial work done, must be undone.


The problem with this is that it often leads to lawsuits with claims and counter claims. Wasteful expenditure that could have been spent on much needed services, infrastructure and alleviation of poverty by creation of meaningful jobs.

I am dreaming of the day that there will no longer be any politicians, but only people who govern their own affairs... :Zzzzz:  :Innocent:

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## Justloadit

Its a no win situation for all, except for a handful of opportunists who make a quick buck at the expense of the economy and long term failure.

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## pmbguy

Tendepreneurs... I know of some who have government contacts for office automation, but they have zero experience and they slack as hell. Machines are often offline for months further crippling governments ability to function. Then there are the huge kickbacks, especially for consumables (Toners).

bbbee is a malignancy suffocating business in SA. In the long term it is even damaging to those it uplifted.

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## Justloadit

It is all about adding value to the supply chain. 
BBEE fails to come anything close to this, and hence the unsustainable process which is crippling to all, even to those it is supposed to uplift.

Human nature is to take the easiest path to a final destination. BBEE is precisely this, so that no one along the path actually learns business, but rather learns how to screw the system with out putting any effort.

All they simply have to do is to state best price, best delivery will get the order.
 You know a specific company can only do so many orders, and it's service will fail, that is when the competition comes in and takes the rest of the orders. 
What this does, is to force the entrepreneurs to think long and hard in the process to get the order. Now you are learning and creating a sustainable solution.
It will be a win win situation for all - good service at the right price.

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Blurock (14-Mar-14)

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## Dave A

This thread developed an interesting twist along the way.

OK - so the core theme is that BBBEE is not working out too well.
This is due in no small part to inefficiencies and corrupt practices.
Ultimately these inefficiencies and corrupt practices get the space to play because the filter (BBBEE) through which everything is measured introduces obfuscation in what would otherwise be a clear cut dynamic.

The discussion then turns to the electorate.
The quality of the results from the electorate are being questioned.
And the solutions proposed are variations of introducing filters of some sort (EQ, IQ, qualified franchise of some sort).

Can you see this would be introducing obfuscation into a process that is currently a very clear cut dynamic?
What would be the chances that this obfuscation might introduce greater problems than the ones you are trying to solve?

(Just like it has with BBBEE).

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Blurock (14-Mar-14)

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## pmbguy

The electoral system may be clear cut and dynamic, but this in itself is certainly not enough to say it must be good by default because it’s clear cut and dynamic. 

Yes it will be challenging to employ (IQ-EQ) and it will cause resistance, problems etc, sure, but a positive result should be considered too. Considerations of obfuscation are relative to the result. 

I don’t subscribe to the idea of their being a large an us-them conflict arising from such a system, because the votes and IQ-EQ are anonymous, they don’t know whether their vote was counted or not. Technically you creating two classes yes, but people don’t know for sure which class they belong to so conflict between these two classes will be low. 

People who disapprove and are resistant would be less inclined to voice their disapproval of the system when they start to see good results. I reject the notion that a technical class divide will automatically lead to the non-voters not benefiting from such a system. 

Those who did not score enough to be counted are still participating. Their contribution is to create the database from where it is possible to select the top 49%.

In any regard, I don’t even think there is a remote possibility of such a system ever being used. It’s still an interesting concept though.

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## Blurock

> According to a report by the Financial and Fiscal Commission, there is a need for R80bn over 11 years to address the current maintenance backlog in electricity, water and sanitation infrastructure and to return it to optimum condition.


The problem with any government that is not well managed is the agency factor. The employees have no pride, no motivation and no initiative. Maintenance does not exist in their vocabulary.

Imagine the ideal town where the community works together to elect their own officials to look after their own affairs (and not the interests of a political party). They will soon realise where their efforts and resources have to be directed. If you do not attend to your water supply, it may dry up. If you neglect your sewerage works, you may just contaminate your whole environment. An efficient bus service may alleviate some of the traffic problems and may get your employees to work on time.

By working with industry and commerce, community leaders can help to facilitate business growth and job creation, which will in turn stimulate the fiscus, so that there is money available for further development. 

Oh why do we have to have politicians? :Banghead:

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## KristiKat

> This demonstrates exactly how BBEEE works;
> 
> Company A had a tender and presumably performed a good service as they have been in this kind of business for more than 20 years.
> 
> When the tender came up for renewal, it was awarded to BBEEE at a higher than quoted price. BBEEE then re-appointed Company A to perform the same service, but at a higher rate than they had before, plus an up front implementation fee.
> 
> This suits Company A, who is now being paid more, but the performance risk, financial risk and dealing with all the potential problems now lies with BBEEE!
> 
> This is surely a win-win situation for the parties involved, but in the end it is us, the citizens and tax payers of this country who has to pay for the bulshit and corruption!


yep and those with the most brains have to work the hardest..........

the more "unskilled" employees they hire,

the more work they have to do themselves.......

to keep up with succeeding on that level........

it is not a win-win situation,

but rather a stupid business decision,

so you wanted to make more money,

and had to register as  A BEE company for that,

and what happens?

you have to work harder than you used to,

because your employees are practically useless.

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## KristiKat

> The electoral system may be clear cut and dynamic, but this in itself is certainly not enough to say it must be good by default because its clear cut and dynamic. 
> 
> Yes it will be challenging to employ (IQ-EQ) and it will cause resistance, problems etc, sure, but a positive result should be considered too. Considerations of obfuscation are relative to the result.


maybe i am reading this wrong,

according to me,

there will be conflict no matter what type of employee you hire,

be he smart or dumb as farrrrk,

it is a evil cycle that never ends.

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## pmbguy

> maybe i am reading this wrong,
> 
> according to me,
> 
> there will be conflict no matter what type of employee you hire,
> 
> be he smart or dumb as farrrrk,
> 
> it is a evil cycle that never ends.


Hi Kristi

Yeah you got the wrong end of the joint a bit. My post you quoted was not about employment it was about testing peoples IQ and EQ for voting purposes, a side discussion to the main discussion about how kak bbbee is.

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## Dave A

> The electoral system may be clear cut and dynamic, but this in itself is certainly not enough to say it must be good by default because it’s clear cut and dynamic.


 :Hmmm: 

What if I put it to you when it comes to expectations of the electorate, that while it is a laudable goal that the electorate select the best candidates, it is absolutely critical that they have the capacity to hold their representatives to account via the ballot box. 

Which means:




> Considerations of obfuscation are relative to the result.


Exactly. 

Now bear in mind who is in charge of the obfuscation.
And just how much space you're giving them to play with when 49% is near bang in the middle of the bell curve.

The greater the complexity, the greater the space for manipulation.

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## pmbguy

I concede that it’s different and bound to be controversial. I also agree that greater complexity leads to a greater chance of manipulation. Despite this the basic premise still stands, that smarter more emotionally mature people choose better leaders. Issues arising from complexity are far outweighed by the benefits of such a system.  

A system like this will automatically produce better leaders because those who are clearly bad candidates will not be voted into power. You would have smarter parties competing with each other because you have a smarter electorate. 

Smart democracy is a macro solution. This all relates to bbbee, under smart democracy bbbee as it is now would not exist. Smart democracy is not really real democracy anymore, it’s an undemocratic version of democracy that will just work better.

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## KristiKat

> Hi Kristi
> 
> Yeah you got the wrong end of the joint a bit. My post you quoted was not about employment it was about testing peoples IQ and EQ for voting purposes, a side discussion to the main discussion about how kak bbbee is.


i think that would be hilarious.....

the tests i mean...

if they lived in WW2 GERMANY,

half of the population with low brain activity would be wiped from the earth

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## Dave A

pmbguy, I really can't put it more plainly than this: Give a government the space and they'll rig the result, as surely as some in our own government has rigged the result of BBBEE to their advantage.

It really doesn't take much of a study of history to amply demonstrate that the powerfully elegant simplicity of _one (wo)man one vote_ should not be underestimated. As it is, we're already seeing the unintended consequences of proportional representation - in that the electorate cannot hold individual politicians directly accountable...

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## Slow Blow

> i think that would be hilarious,
> 
> half of the population with low brain activity would be wiped from the earth


Now this is something I could vote for  :Clap:  :Clap:  :Clap:

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## Blurock

It is clear that one man one vote does not produce the best results, so maybe a dictatorship is the answer. Now where can I find a dictator that will do what I want? :Whistling:

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## Marq

One Tax Unit contribution = 1 Vote

Vote with your Money. If I dont like the way you spent it last year - this year I will vote for a more likely candidate.

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## adrianh

> One Tax Unit contribution = 1 Vote
> 
> Vote with your Money. If I dont like the way you spent it last year - this year I will vote for a more likely candidate.


Wealth and paying tax do not necessarily equate to intelligence....there are many wealthy a$$holes!

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KristiKat (16-Mar-14)

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## pmbguy

Dave - So you saying deviation from normal democracy produces complexity and should therefore not be attempted because this leads to corruption –enough corruption for it to fail.  Perhaps you are right. Perhaps democracy only works because of its simplicity. If this is true then I would argue that democracy itself produces such poor results that dealing with issues of complexity and corruption in IQ-EQ seems a lesser challenge.

Voting is perhaps the only process I want to complicate, in all other matters, including bbbee and commerce, I support dynamic and simplistic policies. 

I agree with other democratic processes and institutions, except for the big one off course being who is eligible to vote, which makes it a pseudo democratic system based on the quality of men and woman.

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## Marq

> Wealth and paying tax do not necessarily equate to intelligence....there are many wealthy a$$holes!


Correct - I did not suggest this.
I was suggesting another solution as Intelligence does not often equate to a correct decisions and voting patterns either.




> The problem with democracy is that everybody gets to vote with no IQ standards in place.


There are plenty of intelligent a$$holes out there as well.

All systems from voting through to government and business processes, should be kept dynamic and simple. Complicate any of them and a mechanism to corrupt will evolve. 

Does a higher IQ-EQ equate to higher moral values that will solve the corruption and racketeering problems that seem to have taken over as a system for governance?

Do you think a voting and governance system designed and implemented by University Boffin's with supposedly high IQ-EQ scores, will offer an adequate solution to this question?

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## Marq

Another though:-
If it was decided that only people with an IQ over 150 were allowed to vote - How long would it be before Malema and cronies burst through the voting doors with certificates declaring them to be in possession of IQ's in excess of 200?  :EEK!:

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## pmbguy

An IQ-EQ system does not automatically solve all the problems, or automatically equate to higher moral values, no such system exists. A new system does not have to be perfect to be much better. Its rather obvious, at least in my mind, that the top 49% in IQ-EQ scores will make better choices in an election.

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## Blurock

One can have a high IQ and still be stupid. I know many of those.

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adrianh (16-Mar-14)

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## pmbguy

> One can have a high IQ and still be stupid. I know many of those.


That’s very true. Some people may be extremely bright, but very stupid in some aspect or another. 

Despite these examples I am confident that on average dumb people are dumber than smart people and smart people are smarter than dumb people. IQ is certainly not a perfect measure of intelligence, nobody has ever claimed it is (Unless they have a very low IQ). IQ is merely a measure that to a large degree reflects intelligence, its only really used because it is one of our best measures/tests we have come up with so far to test for intelligence and its relatively uncomplicated to administer. There are many other measures available, there is the option to modify and combine a whole assortment of tests that are more fit to its application as a voting filter. Even then it will still just be a test that to a large degree measures intelligence. It won’t be perfect or fair, but it will be largely effective for purpose.

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## Blurock

There are (many) people with a high IQ that drink and drive. (potential to kill others and yourself)
There are (many) people who overestimate their driving skills and compromise themselves and others on the road.

There are people who smoke pot and destroy their brain cells.
People take drugs and do not realize the consequences on their bodies, their lives and those around them.

There are people who abuse the ones that love them.

Stupidity can not be taught. We can go on and on and on...

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KristiKat (16-Mar-14)

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## wynn

We have already had a Government of a 'qualified franchise' (Apartheid) and look where that got us, now you want to introduce another type?

I'd rather go with 'Dave's' Idea of an electorate who directly elect their representative and if they do not perform they can be recalled.

The problem with proportional representation is that the 'Cadres' only see blind loyalty to the party as their prime motivation and the electorate have to 'suck up' the appointment of useless, crooked and corrupt 'Comrades' whom they probably didn't even know about before the election.

There are already murmurings in the Eastern Cape that they want the representatives they choose to be in power representing them, not someone they never met before and don't know from Adam.

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## wynn

Government is the agency of coercion that has flags in front of its offices.

- Harry Browne

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pmbguy (17-Mar-14)

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## pmbguy

I have come to realise that I agree with much that was said in opposition to my evil plan. Even for the sake of speculative theory, any voting filter will probably be exploited to such a degree that it could, by its own devices, create the opposite of its intended goal, namely to make life better for all.

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Dave A (17-Mar-14)

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## Marq

Your good intentions are noted but I am not sure that you should shelve your evil plan so easily, just because a couple of naysayers produced some compelling thoughts against it.  :Big Grin:

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pmbguy (17-Mar-14)

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## pmbguy

I still maintain that on a fundamental level better IQ-EQ generates better decisions in a voting process. Whether it will work in practicality as a voting filter, given political corruption, is what I have come to doubt.

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## Marq

There needs to be a completely independent IEC and audit cum public protector system that operates outside the roles of the country's politicians.
I was thinking that it should be run like the judicial processes, but then realised they are probably just as corrupt.

A proper body of upright and uptight people with high IQ-EQ's and lotsa bucks, that is keeper of the country's integrity, constitution and moral values, answerable to no one and able to enable and process judgement on who is and isnt eligible to run for offices available as well as put to death those who transgress. A group that just controls the overall rules in play and doesnt give a toss who is charge as long as they do the job.  

Batman and Superman comes to mind and you could probably have Chuck Norris head it up. (It is my fantasy so I'll appoint who I like. :Stick Out Tongue: )

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pmbguy (17-Mar-14)

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## pmbguy

Look if Chuck Norris is involved it will definitely work

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## Dave A

If it's any consolation, pmbguy, I agree that the results of democracy often leaves much room for improvement. 

I suspect part of the challenge here is getting a better quality of candidates. The very best candidates tend not to be the ones pushing to be front of the queue.
In fact the last people we want are the people that push to the front of the queue.

The quiet voice of reason and good sense is most often quiet indeed, unfortunately.

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pmbguy (17-Mar-14)

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## xcorporation

The sole purpose of BBEEE is to take out all other races in economy.

if the entire economy is black in 100 year time. that would means all other cultures would have evaporated by then to hazardous conditions.
Exit strategy would be simple ... There is none purely because other culture foreighners would rehabitate south africa once bbeee is gone. so they want those blocked; like mugabe currently does.

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## wynn

> other culture foreighners would rehabitate south africa once bbeee is gone.


Aah the Chinese will recolonize Africa by default as they are subtly doing already.

Confucius he say, "Why should a continent with so much resources be left in the control of such IDIOTS when within a few years we can be the silent majority and simply take over. and we won't even compromise our own population"

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## pmbguy

I bet Zheng He is jealous of his current successors whist turning in his grave at Zutang Mountain, ball-less and all.

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## Blurock

My experience is that BEE does not work. If I look at successful black business people, I realise that they have made it through hard work and dedication, not because of handouts and empowerment. There were even black millionaires in the apartheid era. They did not wait for things to happen, they made it happen!   

I know of a business owner who started out selling fruit and veg door-to-door. Today he is a successful entrepreneur who also exports to other African countries.

On the other hand, those that have benefited from their political connections can not sustain their ill gotten positions and riches and soon lose everything through mismanagement and squander. The sad thing is that they pull other people down with them. 

We talk about the scars of apartheid, but the scars of BEE can be much more severe!

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## Blurock

> London Times - Quote of the week
> 
> Interesting point of affirmative action:
> "South Africa is the only country in the world where affirmative action is in the favour of the majority who has complete political control. The fact that the political majority require affirmative action to protect them against a 9% minority group is testament to a complete failure on their part to build their own wealth making structures, such that their only solution is to take it from others".
> 
> Finally, a word recently coined to describe South Africa's current political situation.
> 
> Ineptocracy (in-ep-toc-ra-cy)
> 
> - a system of government where the least capable of producing and where the members of society least likely to sustain themselves or succeed, are rewarded with goods and services paid for by the confiscated wealth of a diminishing number of producers.


Considering Nskandla and all the other shenanigans, such as proposed land grabs, it is now turning into a cleptocracy...

I am so proud of my country, but this saddens me so much, I can cry. :Surrender:

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wynn (09-Jul-14)

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## IanF

I did a search for the quote and it is in the blogs section link here
Was this ever a mainstream article in the paper?

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## Blurock

Every entrepreneur in this country should be respected and supported for their willingness to risk their own capital (and sometimes those of their families that assist them to get going) and hard work and innovation to build a business. These businesses sustain not only the entrepreneur, but also create jobs, direct and indirect.

Businesses and their employees pay tax to pay for government and infrastructure. They require services and products from accountants, lawyers, stationery suppliers, machine and equipment suppliers, service technicians, IT specialists and a myriad of other suppliers. They use water and electricity and indirectly provide jobs to municipal employees, Escom employees, the very same people who are now on strike and are stoning vehicles and vandalizing buildings.

It is very risky to start your own business, therefore we need the best of the best to go forward and to share their skills with the rest of the population. We cannot afford to employ cadres such as our wonderful government is doing. We can also not just give away 50% of our business to someone who has no interest in the business and has no skill to take it forward.

Don't get me wrong, I would love to have a black partner that can add value to my business, but the bottom line is adding value and being prepared to work hard and put in the same hours that I do. Also to make sacrifices and be prepared to take a cut, or even go without a salary when things are tough. The workers get paid first and the boss stands at the back of the queue. If I look at the fat cats in parliament, I cannot see any one of them being prepared to make any kind of sacrifice for their country. They just want more, without having to work for it.

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Dave A (09-Jul-14), Justloadit (09-Jul-14), Mike C (09-Jul-14)

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## wynn

So what have the new codes brought to the table except chasing small entrepreneurs away?

http://www.timeslive.co.za/thetimes/...harm-than-good

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## Slow Blow

> So what have the new codes brought to the table except chasing small entrepreneurs away?
> 
> http://www.timeslive.co.za/thetimes/...harm-than-good


We must get with the program the **** are in charge, pay the bribes and crack on chaps, there is fuckall else you can do about it, you did not want to fight for your country in 1994, bitches !!!!!!!!!!!!!

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## Brett Nortje

> So what have the new codes brought to the table except chasing small entrepreneurs away?
> 
> http://www.timeslive.co.za/thetimes/...harm-than-good


Well, the more people with jobs, the better, no matter what color they are. this can be fixed by creating more jobs through offering packages to people that are bosses, as, they might sign a clause where they pledge to start new companies. this would mean that competent people take their list of connections with them, and spreads good will if nothing else.

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## Justloadit

mmmmmmm interesting, my recently youngest graduated daughter went to an interview yesterday, and was bluntly told in her face, that sorry they can not employ her because she is white, and they have quotas to fill. 
All her black classmates have been employed, so please be understanding the fact that I may be a little peeved off at the the BEE implementation and labour equity act. 

Fortunately she has been offered another job at a small company, not quite what she wanted, but at least this is a start to get some experience in her field. 

Her question to me was, why are they doing this, as she was born in 1993 and was not even brought up under the apartheid regime, after all she is a South African.

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## IanF

Justloadit that is terrible, I hope she makes the most of her job in the small company. My eldest daughter couldn't get a promotion in a telecoms company and was then asked to train the person who did get it.
She has now joined a software company and jets around the world to give sales presentations and training for the telecom software she is going back to Russia next week.
There is a big world out there.

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## JanChris

> mmmmmmm interesting, my recently youngest graduated daughter went to an interview yesterday, and was bluntly told in her face, that sorry they can not employ her because she is white, and they have quotas to fill. 
> All her black classmates have been employed, so please be understanding the fact that I may be a little peeved off at the the BEE implementation and labour equity act. 
> 
> Fortunately she has been offered another job at a small company, not quite what she wanted, but at least this is a start to get some experience in her field. 
> 
> Her question to me was, why are they doing this, as she was born in 1993 and was not even brought up under the apartheid regime, after all she is a South African.


This is exactly my point when I was rudely accused (by some who now make bold statements) about what was happening in the workplace.

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## Justloadit

Due to my daughter's age, we tend to speak to quite a few graduates, who currently are struggling to get permanent employment because of the quotas.

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## JanChris

> Due to my daughter's age, we tend to speak to quite a few graduates, who currently are struggling to get permanent employment because of the quotas.


I wish your daughter all the best and that she becomes successful in what she does. It is not easy in the workplace but she must hang in there. Good things happen to good people.

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## adrianh

> I wish your daughter all the best and that she becomes successful in what she does. It is not easy in the workplace but she must hang in there. Good things happen to good people.


Hey Jan,  clearly you must be a very bad person because nothing good ever seems to happen to you.

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## Justloadit

> Hey Jan,  clearly you must be a very bad person because nothing good ever seems to happen to you.


Ha - So what has this statement got to do with the price of eggs?
What are you taking this morning?

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## adrianh

Its actually quite simple; if a person believes that good things happen to good people then it stands to reason that they also believe that bad things happen to bad people. Further, if they often complain that bad things happen to them then one can only deduce, as per their own belief system, that they must be bad people. If one takes this reasoning further then white people must be bad because nothing good ever seems to happen to them.

Of course one could also accept that  the statement "good things happen to good people" is totally meaningless and has no value given that good things also happen to bad people, that bad things also happen to good people and then nothing actually happens most of the time...

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## Justloadit

I believe it all has to do with the skill of identifying opportunities. Sometimes one can be fooled by the glitter of the opportunity, and it goes south.

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## adrianh

What did your daughter study?

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## Justloadit

Art Director and Copyright Editor at the AAA school of advertising and last year won a Bronze Loerie Award in the student category print scrabble campaign.

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## JanChris

> Hey Jan,  clearly you must be a very bad person because nothing good ever seems to happen to you.


You one sick puppy. It seems that you follow me around just to annoy me. Well, it's not working. I have dealt with your type of personality before. I suggest you get someone to help you.

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## HR Solutions

> It seems that you follow me around just to annoy me


Follows you around ????????????????????? Are you SERIOUS ???????????
This is a public forum for all to post ......... Didn't realise it was only for "Janchris" ....... or did I miss something ...... maybe admin can fill us in where it says that certain posts are only for certain people.

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## adrianh

> You one sick puppy. It seems that you follow me around just to annoy me. Well, it's not working. I have dealt with your type of personality before. I suggest you get someone to help you.


My type of personality...which is hmmmm....exactly what?

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## wynn

Mark Corke has posted this interesting article, enjoy.    :Mad: 

"Keith Levenstein is about to tell us all about where the new BBBEE situation stands in his brief seminars, following the imposition of the new codes next week. At the time of writing this, Rob Davies was intent on imposing the new codes from 1 May. I have a slightly jaundiced view of BEE as a whole, notwithstanding the fact that something (meaningful) needs to be done to sort out the inequities of the past.

I guess I am just a bit tired of poor and indifferent service from people who have jobs because of their skin colour, and not because of their abilities. Indifference arises from the employees knowing that their numbers add to the employers score card first, and second; the employees knowledge that employers find it is a leap too far to dismiss the useless, care of the CCMA.

From front line call centre staff to sportsmen in the best teams. They know it and we know it. Quota is a four letter word. No really, it is.

There are unintended consequences to this social engineering. None of this is new, of course. When I left school, I was told I would never get a job unless I first got a degree because jobs were all reserved for Afikaners. Life was a lot worse for our black fellow citizens at the time.

Soon after leaving university, I decided that I was unemployable, anyway. Thank goodness for that self realisation as I struggled to create my own space without the luxury of a monthly pay cheque.

That is the thing about the future of South Africa. When the patronising dust has settled, the unintended consequences will simply perpetuate the inequalities of the past and present.

However, it is worth noting that in South Africa in 2015 there are many jobs which are considered very valuable, but falling into a few broad spectra:

Most public sector jobs seem to be regarded as reward  without  work jobs. But apart from those: 
◦Consultants are becoming the life blood of the nation as cadre deployment relies on them to get the job done.
BEE has spawned a whole extra layer between those who are able, and those who can connect. Well if nothing else, it is a way of distributing wealth to the connected. We can only hope that some of it filters down to their respective communities. Personally, I have run out of puff, holding that breath.
A whole raft of very capable white people who are unable to find employment the various sectors which now place small print at the end of their job adverts: Preference will be given to PDIs. Those people become struggling business owners, sometimes employing those with less initiative, other than always being able to find a job because I am black.
That last group is going to perpetuate a problem. White people are unable to find jobs commensurate with their abilities. So they take their skills to the small business sector, where they scrape and starve for years, building up one man operations, perhaps with a few staff members in support. The thing with being made to struggle, is that if the struggle does not kill, it strengthens.

When the dust has finally settled, and the strong are left standing, the employers of the future will be the strong who had to fight for their crusts. The workers will be those who rely only on their melanin to get their daily bread. That is a great sadness for a country with so much talent being wasted while it receives handouts.

These businesses or jobs if you prefer are, in a normal society, difficult to sell. However, South Africa has been an abnormal society for as long as it has had any sort of society in the last 300 years. The current hogs at the trough have no interest in changing that. Much like the pigs before them, and all the previous artiodactylous rulers before them.

The thing with abnormal societies is that abnormal practices flourish. So when a self employed businessman arrives at the end of his career in this abnormal society, there is a ready stream of one man operators willing and desperate to buy themselves into that job. It is not the way it should be. But is the way it is. And it is a meaningful way for small business owners to exit with some accumulated value.

The thing is, while banks may not be interested in financing these acquisitions, the youngsters in question often have access to family funds by way of cash or security, to help put them into jobs which will one day be the employers of the weak sons and daughters of todays ruling elite.

Its very depressing for the country as a whole, but it offers a way out for those who need to move on to a new phase in their respective careers."

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Blurock (29-Apr-15), DanE (01-May-15)

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## Dave A

Just a reminder to credit content from other sources with a link where possible. Mark Corke's article on BEE is originally published here. 

I really loved the "Red Rob". How the heck did we end up with such a die-hard communist as the Minister of Trade & Industry?

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## wynn

> How the heck did we end up with such a die-hard communist as the Minister of Trade & Industry?


How the heck did we end up with the ministers of police, health, education, transport, etc. etc.?    :Mad:

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## Blurock

> How the heck did we end up with the ministers of police, health, education, transport, etc. etc.?


Cadre deployment and jobs for those who will protect the corrupt One.




> When the dust has finally settled, and the strong are left standing, the employers of the future will be the strong who had to fight for their crusts. The workers will be those who rely only on their melanin to get their daily bread. That is a great sadness for a country with so much talent being wasted while it receives handouts.


Thanks to BEE a great number of people (including myself) have started to use their grey stuff and have identified opportunities to get out of the rut and the rat race. After the almost disaster of starting up as a BEE company, the BEE partner did the honourable thing to resign. He is indeed an honourable man, but soon realised that he could not add any value to the business and was not prepared to stand in for 51% of the debt. 

Not one of the banks or government institutions were prepared to fund us. We used our own money and found investors in our second year.

Today we, as white Africans, are doing business with black Africans on an equal footing. No BEE. No bull$#!t. We are passionate and patriotic South Africans, but we also have respect for our foreign brothers, some of whom we employ. We also generate an increasing number of direct and indirect jobs and provide skills to the people that we employ. We have started exporting our products and we have people queuing up to buy shares in our emerging business. A number of international companies have identified us as potential strategic partners. Maybe we are stupid, but we have just declined an enormous offer for our shares in the business.

This may sound like boasting, but sadly this is not the case. We could have been further and could have employed many more people, had it not been for political bias and BEE. We are often being told that our company is too white and to "get our house in order" before we can expect any orders. There is no concern for the 90% + black people that we employ and train. If we appoint only one fat cat to sit on our board with 51% of the shares we will be accepted. 

No-where in the world has social engineering worked in the long run. Market forces will always prevail. An unjust rule will not correct the injustices of the past. What we need is forward thinking and a better work ethos. Stamp out corruption and do not humour politicians. We are finding that dealing with like minded business men of all races (why do I have to say that word?) is paying dividends as we can respect them for who they are and not the quota players appointed by government.

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DanE (01-May-15), Dave A (30-Apr-15), Mike C (30-Apr-15)

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## Blurock

Just as white entrepreneurs started their ventures post 1994 due to reverse racism, black entrepreneurs started various businesses pre 1994 during the apartheid era. Some of them remained small, shebeens, spaza shops and the likes, but others made it big in industries such as the taxi industry, cosmetics, cane furniture and others. 

Names such as Herman Mashaba (Black like Me), Patrice Motsepe (African Rainbow Minerals) and Sam Motsuane (founder of African Bank) comes to mind. Franchises such as KFC helped to establish black people in business long before the demise of apartheid. There were also a number of Indian and coloured entrepreneurs who did not wait for a handout, but started their own businesses with sweat and hard work and pulled themselves up by their boot strings. I tip my hat to these people who had the guts to defy the government of the day and ignored politics in favour of business. Today we have many entrepreneurs of all colours; shopkeepers, franchise owners and even factory owners who can be proud of what they have achieved.

They have made it against all odds and so can we. Business should make its voice heard and not be shy to tell politicians that we are not going to put up with their corruption and Bull$!t. Let's stop moaning and lets be positive in supporting our fellow businesses and communities. Get politics and quotas out of business so that we can prosper and employ more people. Only then will we be able to create and spread the wealth that this great country offers us.

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## sterne.law@gmail.com

A common thread that runs through BEE thoughts seems to be the fixation on ownership. It is but one component and a company can easily score 65% without maximizing opportunities and without any black ownership.

Perhaps thus is as a result of the original structure which was pretty much all about ownership.
Of course the ultimate way is the bottom up approach where training and lower level employment should carry more weight. In this way people will develope naturally into the executive role and possibly ownership.

Unfortunately, due to corruption, the ownership starts to figure more prominently in terms of landing tenders.

The other thought process that is perhaps forgotten is that BEE is most important for those seeking tenders.
The non tender market is affected due to the drill down effect where tender contenders (nice rhyme that) want their suppliers to have ststus to score the points in procurement.

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## Greig Whitton

> A common thread that runs through BEE thoughts seems to be the fixation on ownership. It is but one component and a company can easily score 65% without maximizing opportunities and without any black ownership.


Even if a company did score 65% without any black ownership, it would only achieve a Level 8 B-BBEE rating (which is pathetic).

At most, a 100% white-owned company can achieve a Level 4 B-BBEE rating: 19 points for Management Control + 25 points for Skills Development + 44 points for Procurement and Supplier Development + 5 points for Social Responsibility = 93 points in total = Level 3. Then deduct 1 Level for failing to achieve the mandatory, minimum ownership target = Level 4. By contrast, a black-owned EME or QSE automatically qualifies for a Level 1 or Level 2 rating (and doesn't even have to get certified - a sworn affidavit will suffice).

The difference between Level 4 and Level 1 is huge. On top of that, some procurement points can only be earned by doing business with black suppliers. In industries where a supplier's B-BBEE rating has a serious impact on their ability to secure demand, the new Codes are making it almost impossible for white-owned companies to compete.

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## sterne.law@gmail.com

I am not disputing that 60-80% is not great.
What I think is important is that people are aware that they can get some sort of rating without ownership levels.
In reality you either will or you will not have ownership.
Having made that decision you may as well get what rating you can.
Sure you may only be eligible for 20% of opportunity compared to a 100% rating, but 20% is better than zero.

If you are in a sector where tenders are dominant, we can concede taht the rating is worth zero if you not connected.
Fair - NO, but taht is the current status quo

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## wynn

I bumped into a pal I have not seen in a while and he introduced me to his ten year old adopted black son.

He said "Meet Thando, he is my son and BBBEE partner."

I don't know if he was joking or serious but if this is legal you can kill two birds with one stone.
You can be proactive by offering a good home to a black orphan who would normally not stand a chance in the system and of which there are probably more than white owned business or families.
You can get 100% compliance by naming him as the sole or majority owner but because he is under age you are his guardian and make all decisions for him/her and the business.

The long term benefit is that when he reaches his majority, if he is interested, he will probably be the right fit to be active in the business.

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## IanF

Wynn I met a white guy who had an ID book with his first name as Thabo. Was not a nice guy.

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## Greig Whitton

> I don't know if he was joking or serious but if this is legal you can kill two birds with one stone. You can be proactive by offering a good home to a black orphan who would normally not stand a chance in the system and of which there are probably more than white owned business or families. You can get 100% compliance by naming him as the sole or majority owner but because he is under age you are his guardian and make all decisions for him/her and the business.


That's called fronting and it's not legal.

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## Blurock

> A common thread that runs through BEE thoughts seems to be the fixation on ownership. It is but one component and a company can easily score 65% without maximizing opportunities and without any black ownership.


Without Black ownership there are no tenders for manufacturers and suppliers. The reality is that a tenderpreneur can import low quality, uncertified items and sell it on a highly regulated environment only because he/she has connections with the Zuma government. As an example, the diesel sold to ESKOM by two ladies at a hugely inflated price. That is the only reason how people with cleaning or catering companies can sell medical supplies and technical engineering equipment to the government. BEE is a licence for corruption!

These individuals are pushing the country into bankruptcy, because when you import low quality items that are sold at an inflated price, you are undermining local manufacturers and causing factories and businesses to close. (remember our once thriving textile industry?) For every import, a job is exported - never to return again. It is not only job losses, but also the manufacturing skills. Once we lose our skills, we lose everything and we will become totally dependent on imports which will get more expensive with an ever deflating currency. 

It is not only the factories that close and people losing their jobs. There are also indirect jobs. Do not think that because you work in a bank, shop or accounting office that you will not be affected. Factories need trucks to transport their goods. They need accountants and bankers and their staff buy from shops. When factories close, the workers are out on the street and do not have the buying power to support your take-away or shop. Think about it!

The new BEE codes will now discriminate against businesses like ours, just to empower tenderpreneurs as mentioned above. So if we no longer get orders, what happens to the black people that we employ and equip with skills to become more than just workers, but technicians who can stand their own in the job market? 

I am all for equal opportunity and skills development, but I will not let a fat cat sit on my board just because he is black or white or anything in-between. I do not want politics and politicians to run my life. If it does not make economical sense, it is not good for business and future prosperity. To create wealth we have to do away with quota players and be the best that we can be. Incidentally, most of our own procurement is from BEE companies, not because they are black, but because it makes economical sense.

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## Greig Whitton

> Without Black ownership there are no tenders for manufacturers and suppliers. The reality is that a tenderpreneur can import low quality, uncertified items and sell it on a highly regulated environment only because he/she has connections with the Zuma government. As an example, the diesel sold to ESKOM by two ladies at a hugely inflated price. That is the only reason how people with cleaning or catering companies can sell medical supplies and technical engineering equipment to the government. BEE is a licence for corruption!


To be fair, doing away with B-BBEE isn't going to stop the corruption or tenderpreneurship. Ironically, government tends to enforce B-BBEE less stringently when choosing suppliers than the private sector. Who you know and and how much you are willing to bribe are usually more significant factors.

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## Blurock

> To be fair, doing away with B-BBEE isn't going to stop the corruption or tenderpreneurship. Ironically, government tends to enforce B-BBEE less stringently when choosing suppliers than the private sector. Who you know and and how much you are willing to bribe are usually more significant factors.


Bribery is out of the question. One cannot be against corruption and then do exactly what they do.

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## Greig Whitton

> Bribery is out of the question. One cannot be against corruption and then do exactly what they do.


I'm not suggesting that you (or anyone else) resort to bribery. I'm just trying to explain why B-BBEE has a minimal influence with respect to tenderpreneurship and corruption in general. Corrupt suppliers don't secure government tenders by having a high B-BBEE rating; they do it by having the right connections and bribing the right people.

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## sterne.law@gmail.com

Having been reading this thread of late, gave me pause to think.
Arguably, BBBEE has been the catalyst for the large scale corruption.
That corruption is not only in terms of who gets the tender but the actual prices.

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## sterne.law@gmail.com

The new codes are quite ironic.
If you remember it started as BEE. People then became partners with a black partner as a means to score well.
So it was adjusted to BBBEE, aiming to be broad based by extending the idea through to middle and lower levels.
The new codes have, in a round about way, changed that, returning back to BEE by forcing the businesses to get partners.
The theory is to create less, but more powerful industrialists.
There seems more sustainability in a bottom up approach, but alas

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## Justloadit

There was no added value to the service or product in the increase in price to cover the BBBEE cause, if only for the greed of a few. 
Thinking about a very good example, is the tenderpreneurs who supply the diesel currently to ESKOM, at the hour of need are lining their pockets at the expense of the general population, who are struggling to meet the continuous increase of base cost. This practice is in no way empowering the PDI population but more like enslaving the PDI population, quite opposite to the original intention.

How long can this practice be sustained?

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## Blurock

> There was no added value to the service or product in the increase in price to cover the BBBEE cause, if only for the greed of a few. 
> Thinking about a very good example, is the tenderpreneurs who supply the diesel currently to ESKOM, at the hour of need are lining their pockets at the expense of the general population, who are struggling to meet the continuous increase of base cost. This practice is in no way empowering the PDI population but more like enslaving the PDI population, quite opposite to the original intention.
> 
> How long can this practice be sustained?


Another good example is the lady that approached a bank (no names mentioned) to finance the procurement of tarpaulins. When asked, she explained that she was awarded a contract with Transnet for a substantial amount. She intended to import tarpaulins from China and wanted finance for procurement as well as the transport thereof. She has had no prior experience in this industry.

When asked about local procurement and what about the numbers of people she may potentially put out of work, her answer was that she can get the tarpaulins 10% cheaper from China. No concern for the local workers!

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## bones

> Another good example is the lady that approached a bank (no names mentioned) to finance the procurement of tarpaulins. When asked, she explained that she was awarded a contract with Transnet for a substantial amount. She intended to import tarpaulins from China and wanted finance for procurement as well as the transport thereof. She has had no prior experience in this industry.
> 
> When asked about local procurement and what about the numbers of people she may potentially put out of work, her answer was that she can get the tarpaulins 10% cheaper from China. No concern for the local workers!


i personally lost a contract because the other guy 
was R150 cheaper in total pricing then me also he
had bbbee thing i dont 

it was a R10k job the other guy came in at R9850
thing is this guy never completed the job and i 
told the customer to get lost for him the R150 
was more important then commitment and quality 

point is the customer always want to pay less 
so we have to find ways to that 

do i want to import cheaper stuff? no 
do i have to import cheaper stuff? yes 

blame the customer

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## Blurock

> point is the customer always want to pay less 
> so we have to find ways to that 
> 
> do i want to import cheaper stuff? no 
> do i have to import cheaper stuff? yes 
> 
> blame the customer


There are certain things that have to be imported, but most things can be sourced from local manufacturers or suppliers. By supporting local industry, one is preserving local jobs as well as the skills to keep that industry going. Once we lose those skills we will never get it back. The problem with local industry is that we do not have the required volumes to be really competitive. If we all support local industries, it may eventually happen. Manufacturers should also look at their quality and aim to export as that will give them critical mass to be truly competitive.

Quality should be a much higher consideration as it will be cheaper in the long run. Cheap, low quality imports are devastating to any economy as it destroys all the economic principles. The poor people suffer most as they cannot afford the better quality and then opt for a cheaper alternative which does not last and has to be replaced soon. So they end up paying over and over to replace the same thing. As they say in Afrikaans "goedkoop is duur koop".

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## Greig Whitton

> point is the customer always want to pay less


Maybe you are targeting the wrong customers?

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## IanF

Greig
Thanks for the links I filled out the affidavit and had it sworn at the police station. Nice and easy, I will post if there are any hassles.

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## bones

> Maybe you are targeting the wrong customers?


beggars cant be choosers and there are no wrong customers 
just a few jerks 

i tell them point blank i dont have bbbee if that is a problem 
i have a nice door they can use 

i dont know how bbbee works i know some guy wanted to 
charge me a lot to get the bbbee thing going 

some customers told me they cant use my services if i dont 
have it sh_t luck i dont care 

i rather spend that money on stuff i need like equipment and 
so on

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## Greig Whitton

> the customer always want to pay less





> beggars cant be choosers and there are no wrong customers





> i dont know how bbbee works





> some customers told me they cant use my services if i dont 
> have it sh_t luck i dont care





> blame the customer


Pretty much what I assumed. Good luck with that.

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## Greig Whitton

> Thanks for the links I filled out the affidavit and had it sworn at the police station. Nice and easy, I will post if there are any hassles.


Just remember that the affidavit only gives you Level 4 as an Exempt Micro Enterprises (unless your business is 51%+ black-owned, in which case it will be Level 1 or 2). Normally Level 4 would be perfectly fine, but I expect that the automatic entitlement to Level 1 and Level 2 for black business owners will "raise the bar" and make Level 4 sub-par. That said, a 100% white-owned business cannot achieve a rating higher than Level 4 on the scorecards anyway, so your options are either "bank" the Level 4 (if your annual turnover is under R10 million) or re-structure your ownership to achieve a higher level.

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## IanF

Lets see if the level 4 means anything then!

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bones (15-May-15)

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## bones

> Pretty much what I assumed. Good luck with that.


what a mind blowing insight that was so 
no "bbbee is not that expensive anymore" 

i was right it is still expensive process

no "you have options" suggestions ??

guess you have to pay extra for that

well thanks

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## IanF

My objective is to tell my customers I am BEE rated. No comebacks from the customers who asked for the rating. 
This whole BEE system just adds another layer of bureaucracy to business in South Africa
 :No: 
 :Nono:

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bones (15-May-15)

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## BusFact

> This whole BEE system just adds another layer of bureaucracy to business in South Africa


Exactly. To do business you generally need:

Company number (used to be CM1 form)
VAT number
Income Tax number
Tax clearance certificate
Employers numbers
BEE certificate
Workmans Comp number
Proof of address
ID books
.... plus a few others.

Its just part of the "game". I understand that its far more important when you're tendering for Government contracts or if you supply a large percentage of your customers input, but for many of us its just an irritating extra tax.

Take my one company for example. Average monthly sale to a customer is about R5000. The average annual sales of this type of customer is R10 million plus. My piddly BEE rating has absolutely no affect to their score what so ever. I could be level 1 or 8. They actually don't care. They just want a piece of paper to keep the bureaucrats happy.

Annual financial audits and BEE audits add no value to my business at all. They are merely a form of tax to keep SARS and the parastatals respectively happy. So I suck it up and cough up.

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## BusFact

> There are certain things that have to be imported, but most things can be sourced from local manufacturers or suppliers. By supporting local industry, one is preserving local jobs as well as the skills to keep that industry going. Once we lose those skills we will never get it back. The problem with local industry is that we do not have the required volumes to be really competitive. If we all support local industries, it may eventually happen. Manufacturers should also look at their quality and aim to export as that will give them critical mass to be truly competitive.
> 
> Quality should be a much higher consideration as it will be cheaper in the long run. Cheap, low quality imports are devastating to any economy as it destroys all the economic principles. The poor people suffer most as they cannot afford the better quality and then opt for a cheaper alternative which does not last and has to be replaced soon. So they end up paying over and over to replace the same thing. As they say in Afrikaans "goedkoop is duur koop".


I'm going to whisper this because its probably not PC on this site, but I reckon there is some value in the BBEEE concept. I would just change two things:

1) PDI should become RDI - Recently Disadvantaged Individuals, so anybody who say 5 years ago was below a certain economic level. Take race out of entirely. It will of course still cover mainly the black population so no real change. Except the tenderpreneurs and the black elite will now be excluded - and rightly so. It will now function to genuinely give those who need it that slight advantage and act in a small way as a redistribution of wealth - but only to those actually working for it.

2) Give points for local content and penalise for imported content. I have serious doubts about the international business communities push for "free trade". I think a balance is necessary. Its not possible to compete against countries with huge local markets, established industries or those with virtually no labour laws. The playing fields are quite simply not level. So lets give local business an advantage. Lets not become over protective and uncompetitive, so some international competition should be allowed, but the inequalities need to be evened out a bit.

Points for educating and training, and community development remain good concepts.

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## Greig Whitton

> 2) Give points for local content and penalise for imported content.


The new Codes do award points for procuring from suppliers with a high local content (part of the "empowering suppliers" provision).

I fully agree with the rest of your post but, unfortunately, the changes introduced by the new Codes contradict the very ethos of broad-based economic empowerment. The most recent debacle with the points for employee share schemes and similar broad-based ownership initiatives being severely curtailed is a blatant indication that government is only interested in the enrichment of a politically-connected black minority.

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## bones

> My objective is to tell my customers I am BEE rated. No comebacks from the customers who asked for the rating. 
> This whole BEE system just adds another layer of bureaucracy to business in South Africa


the thing i dont get is why we need it at all 
i mean we are so tiny we dont earn large 
amounts of money why do we need it?

just because some customers demands it?
nope dont think so

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## IanF

Bones 
BEE does not make sense, but at least my customers can say to their bosses I am BEE rated. Whether this will make a difference I don't know

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## Blurock

> The new Codes do award points for procuring from suppliers with a high local content (part of the "empowering suppliers" provision).
> 
> I fully agree with the rest of your post but, unfortunately, the changes introduced by the new Codes contradict the very ethos of broad-based economic empowerment. The most recent debacle with the points for employee share schemes and similar broad-based ownership initiatives being severely curtailed is a blatant indication that government is only interested in the enrichment of a politically-connected black minority.


Finally we get to the truth. BEE is discrimination and should be challenged in court.

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## BusFact

> the thing i dont get is why we need it at all 
> i mean we are so tiny we dont earn large 
> amounts of money why do we need it?
> 
> just because some customers demands it?
> nope dont think so


You don't "need" one. Its not a legal requirement. Its only something required by your customer. In the same way some corporates insist on the vendor having a VAT number, or a tax clearance certificate, or a customer wanting work references, or wanting to first tour and inspect your premises, or asking after a website you have, or a product spec sheet or a safety data sheet .....

It gets their boss of their back and makes their lives easier -  hang on, doesn't that sound familiar? Isn't that why we're selling our products or services ion the first place - to make someone elses life easier or better?

You can take the moral high ground and not get one or you can cough up a few grand to get a piece of paper that will expand your potential customer base. Its a business decision.

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Dave A (17-May-15)

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## BusFact

> The new Codes do award points for procuring from suppliers with a high local content (part of the "empowering suppliers" provision).


That's good to hear. Is it a significant portion? I reckon it should possibly be a third of the value. A third each to: 1) RDI points, 2) Local content, 3) The rest.

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## Justloadit

> The new Codes do award points for procuring from suppliers with a high local content (part of the "empowering suppliers" provision).


and exactly who or how is this going to be monitored/reported in order that you can claim points that the product has a local content?

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## Blurock

Local content means nothing. In spite of the National Procurement Policy calling for local content, the government still buy CCI (cheap chinese imports).

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## Greig Whitton

> That's good to hear. Is it a significant portion? I reckon it should possibly be a third of the value. A third each to: 1) RDI points, 2) Local content, 3) The rest.


The proportion of points ring-fenced for procuring from "empowering suppliers" varies according to which scorecard a company uses (i.e. generic, QSE, or sector-specific), but for the sake of illustration 21 of the 25 Procurement points on the generic scorecard hinge on procuring from "empowering suppliers".

A company is deemed to be an "empowering supplier" if it is an Exempt Micro Enterprise (i.e. has an annual turnover below R10 million) or if it satisfies up to three of the following four criteria:

(a) 25% of cost of sales locally sourced;
(b) 25% of manufacturing, production, and/or packaging completed locally;
(c) 50% of jobs created for black people; and/or
(d) 12 days of productivity per year allocated to supporting black SMEs.




> and exactly who or how is this going to be monitored/reported in order that you can claim points that the product has a local content?


Companies will need to prove that they are "empowering suppliers" (e.g. that they source locally) when they are independently certified by their auditor or verification agency. If they can't produce independently verifiable evidence, then they won't earn their points.

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BusFact (18-May-15)

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## Greig Whitton

> Finally we get to the truth. BEE is discrimination and should be challenged in court.


Absolutely. I genuinely believe that there is a strong case to be made for challenging the constitutionality of Broad-Based Black Economic Empowerment, especially the new Codes that clearly and blatantly discriminate between black and non-black business owners to the extent that it is impossible for a white business owner to achieve the same B-BBEE rating (and, therefore, competitive parity) as a black business owner.

Per Section 9 (3) of the Constitution: 

"The state may not unfairly discriminate directly or indirectly against anyone on one or more grounds, including race, gender, sex, pregnancy, marital status, ethnic or social origin, colour, sexual orientation, age, disability, religion, conscience, belief, culture, language and birth."

Now consider the following extract from the Preamble of the Broad-Based Black Economic Empowerment Act that contextualises the purpose of this legislation (bold text my emphasis):

"AND WHEREAS, unless further steps are taken to increase the effective participation of the majority of South Africans in the economy, *the stability and prosperity of the economy in the future may be undermined to the detriment of all South Africans, irrespective of race*;

AND IN ORDER TO—

*promote the achievement of the constitutional right to equality*, increase broad-based and effective participation of black people in the economy and promote a higher growth rate, increased employment and more equitable income distribution; and
establish a national policy on broad-based black economic empowerment so as to *promote the economic unity of the nation*, *protect the common market*, and *promote equal opportunity and equal access to government services*."

Nothing in that Preamble, in my opinion, justifies the unfair discrimination introduced by the new Codes. In fact, the new Codes arguably fly in the face of the reasons for the introduction of B-BBEE in the first place as indicated by the Preamble elements that I highlighted:

(a) Protecting economic stability and prosperity for all South Africans irrespective of race;
(b) Promoting the Constitutional right to equality;
(c) Promoting economic unity;
(d) Protecting the common market; and
(e) Promoting equal opportunity and equal access to government services.

But who has the resources to take our government to the Constitutional Court? Anyone reading this post does! Last year, Mark Shuttleworth set up a R250 million trust to fund legal cases against the South African government and protect the constitutional rights of all South Africans.

If you are passionately opposed to B-BBEE and want to do something about it, here is your chance. Reach out to Mark Shuttleworth's trust and apply for assistance.

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Blurock (18-May-15)

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## Justloadit

> Companies will need to prove that they are "empowering suppliers" (e.g. that they source locally) when they are independently certified by their auditor or verification agency. If they can't produce independently verifiable evidence, then they won't earn their points.


Theoretically this sounds as if it is going to work, but in practice, who knows

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## Blurock

I believe that people can only be empowered by knowledge. You cannot empower people by giving them grants and jobs that they cannot do. (refer Eskom, Post office, SAA, SABC etc etc and Government in general) People can be only uplifted by training and teaching them so that they can acquire skills that can be sold on the labour market.

There is a shortage of skilled people in this country, so why are so many young people still sitting on their arses and doing nothing? Everyone is waiting on a handout from government. The money will not last. The cANCer has just about emptied the coffers. The honeymoon is now over, as predicted by Moeletsi Mbeki: Architects of Poverty: Why African Capitalism Needs Changing, Central Books, April 2009; Advocates for change: How to overcome Africa's challenges, Picador Africa, 2011.

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## SSS100

Interesting to see what people think about certain things and other people in the country

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## Blurock

As factories close, we lose the skills of qualified technicians and engineers. Who will the teach our children when they are all gone? Where will they find employment? Who will drive innovation and create new products? We cannot just import everything that we want, we have to manufacture it ourselves. There are products that cannot be economically manufactured locally, but we should be careful not to just run to the importer if we want something. Importers do not create jobs or skills. 

Our manufacturing sector can address many social skills by employing more people and training them as engineers and technicians. We have the people, we now have to create a learning culture and the will to work. Government can play a big role by incentivising the manufacturing sector.
Why do we export raw materials and not the added value of a finished product which can turn our whole economy around?

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## SSS100

Surely clear that the implication is that ALL black people are the same

Of course, we are dealing with the same white people who ALL claim NOT to have benefited from Apartheid ... but they ALL went to better schools than black people, ALL had access to better health care and systems as a result of Apartheid then now claim they did NOT benefit from it

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## Blurock

> Surely clear that the implication is that ALL black people are the same
> 
> Of course, we are dealing with the same white people who ALL claim NOT to have benefited from Apartheid ... but they ALL went to better schools than black people, ALL had access to better health care and systems as a result of Apartheid then now claim they did NOT benefit from it


Please, we do not need your racist remarks. Please read my post again and notice the facts that you are missing. We do not create wealth by opportunist and populist political agendas, but by sharing knowledge and by training people with skills so that they can fend for themselves. 

Everyone is looking for a job, but a job is a pick and a shovel. Aim a little higher and acquire a skill that will give you the power to negotiate a better wage and a better life for your family. It is time that we look past our differences and look at how we can all work together as SOUTH AFRICANS to make this country great again. I am sure that we all want peace and prosperity so that our children can inherit a country that can stand proud in the international arena. Not only our sporting heroes, but also heroes in business and in our our communities must stand together.

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## SSS100

> Please, we do not need your racist remarks. Please read my post again and notice the facts that you are missing. We do not create wealth by opportunist and populist political agendas, but by sharing knowledge and by training people with skills so that they can fend for themselves. 
> 
> Everyone is looking for a job, but a job is a pick and a shovel. Aim a little higher and acquire a skill that will give you the power to negotiate a better wage and a better life for your family. It is time that we look past our differences and look at how we can all work together as SOUTH AFRICANS to make this country great again. I am sure that we all want peace and prosperity so that our children can inherit a country that can stand proud in the international arena. Not only our sporting heroes, but also heroes in business and in our our communities must stand together.


Read all the discriminating and degrading posts made by all the white people about transformation and black people and BBBEE which is needed to adddress the cruel injustice of the past in this country   before you tell me of making racism remarks 

Start from beginning of the posts then you shall see MR Clever

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## Dave A

> Interesting to see what people think about certain things and other people in the country


Exposing and debating these differences in thinking is rather the point of this forum website.




> Surely clear that the implication is that ALL black people are the same


It's a long thread. Would you care to quote a couple of posts in support of that assertion.




> Of course, we are dealing with the same white people who ALL claim NOT to have benefited from Apartheid


Oh I don't deny that at all. I'm of an age where being born white in South Africa was undeniably advantageous to my education and economic opportunities in the apartheid era. 
Do you judge me on that alone? Or is what I chose to do with those advantages what really counts when you judge me?

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## SSS100

Thanks Dave for being open and honest to acknowledge that you benefited from the Apartheid regime... many white people still want to shy away from that fact and that's just stupid and coward behaviour... you are one of the FEW brave ones needed to re-build this country

White people need to differentiate from the corrupt politicians and many honest hard working black people that needs to be given chances and included in the economy.

The economy can not continue to benefit just a few white people and as a black person I will NOT be apologetic for insisting that black people be given opportunities because for many years as black people we have been isolated from the main stream economy and as a result we are not economically at par with the minority in the country .. the whites.. FACT

Those white people who do not want transformation can leave ... Australia will fast track your immigration !!!!

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## Blurock

> Read all the discriminating and degrading posts made by all the white people about transformation and black people and BBBEE which is needed to adddress the cruel injustice of the past in this country   before you tell me of making racism remarks 
> 
> Start from beginning of the posts then you shall see MR Clever


Living in the past is not going to ensure a bright future for your or my children. Taking hands and working together to build a country where ALL South Africans can benefit is what we need. We need a shared patriosim and a vision of a country where everyone is equal and treated fairly.  
I sadly do acknowlege that there are racists amongst us, but I also realise that there are black and white racists, that is why I immediately get my back up when race is mentioned (all races). Every time that we fall into that negative trap of pointing fingers, we destroy the little bit of goodwill that still bind us together. 
Most white people voted for change because we saw that apartheid was wrong. Not all of us benefitted from apartheid as is generally believed. I was orphaned at 10 and the boarding school was my home until I left school. Yes, I was privileged to attend a good school, but I could not afford to go to university. I studied part time and worked hard to make a living. I was awarded an MBA at age 50 and I am still studying. I regard myself as fairly succesful, so why should I be ashamed of who I am? 
I can understand that people are hurt because of injustices and many things that have gone wrong. Some show their anger in violent demonstrations such as the burning of trucks on the N3 this weekend. There are however, those who rise above their circumstances to become leaders and pillars of hope in their communities and in their country. Let us be builders rather than breakers.

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Justloadit (03-Apr-18)

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## Blurock

> "The bill will lead to even more resources being made available to relatively less competent entrepreneurs -- black, coloured, Indian and white -- those entrepreneurs who would not make the grade without government assistance."
> 
> This meant fewer consumer goods would be available to all South Africans. The cost of the project would fall on ordinary consumers, who would have to pay more for basic goods.
> 
> Le Roux said it was important to remember it was not just "less competent" black entrepreneurs who benefit from artificial investment, but also whites.
> 
> "White entrepreneurs who would not have made it in the market, but who somehow managed to get a black, coloured or Indian BEE partner, are being kept in business at the expense of consumers," he said.


Just to put everything in perspective; this is where the thread has started. Although there are many whites who resist change due to their fears or insecurities, I have to agree with Wynn's statement which also reflects my view of BBBEE. I see it as a licence for corruption and a free ticket for the politically connected. 

I fully support transformation and in our business we are training (black) youngsters with skills to enable them to negotiate a better wage and a better living. They are now able to apply elsewhere, should they not be happy with their pay or working conditions.There are those who are "too old to learn" or some other excuse, but at least they have the option to decide for themselves. 

We have started the business with a 51% black partner, but he was a gentleman and although a business school graduate, he decided that he was not the right person for the job. What is the use of "empowering" one man if he does not have the technical skills and aptitude to carry on with the business after the founders retire or leave? Is it not better to transfer the skills to more capable youngsters who are willing to learn and who have the the right attitude and hunger for the business? That is what I call empowererment and real freedom. The right to choose where you want to work and to be able to negotiate is real freedom. Not the kind of freedom that is sold by politicians. I have yet to meet any politician that can be trusted.

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## SSS100

Yes, transformation should not be about few politically connected or "one-man" as a BBEEE partner, it is way more than that

Mama Winnie did not suffer for " few" to benefit from the freedom but ALL "our people" as she always referred to the people

Let us honour her and the sacrifices she made .. the good cause

Rest In Peam Mama Winnie

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## Blurock

What do we understand under transformation? I think 90% of South Africans have no clue what the word means and our government certainly have no clue on how to implement it.

The recent debacle of forced racist quotas in sports and in particular in school sports has again opened a can of worms which is driving people into racist camps. This leads to emotional outbursts without thinking rationally, such as that Sija Kolisi, our springbok captain is a sell-out and has to be neclaced! Imagine.

The government should not worry about the racial make-up of our national sides, but rather focus on giving as many children as possible the opportunity to play sport. Too many children are playing their sports in township streets or an open veld with not a blade of grass. The ANC has had 25 years to start building facilities where school children can play, train and practice their sport. Why have they done nothing for our children?! A skill in sport is not acquired at 18 or 20, after you have left school, but at junior level. It takes 10 years to become a master or expert at what you do. That is why Bafana Bafana is such a hopelessly dismal team. You cannot expect to kick a ball around on a barren, grassless field and then become a world class player. 
Look at our black sports stars. All of them went to decent schools with decent sports facilities. Yes the Makaya Ntini's, Kolisi's and others have been discovered in rural areas, but they were given an opportunity which they took and built on to become sports heroes. Had these same guys be left in the rural area and only entered their teams as quota players, they would not have done so well. On the contrary, there would always be the stigma of "quota player", which would also have a psychological impact making them feel inferior to their peers.

Imagine what impact it may have on an unsecure youngster to be included in the school team as a quota player. I am so glad that this stupid announcement was scrapped for school children. Rather build facilities where everyone can have an equal opportunity to excell and be the best that they can be. That is true transformation!

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## Blurock

https://www.engineeringnews.co.za/ar...mmission-2019-

The BBBEE Commission reported on Thursday that no significant changes happened in the levels of transformation during 2018, with black ownership reflecting a decline to 25.2% last year, from 27% in 2017, and management control still sitting at 38% for black persons. According to them this worrying trend of noncompliance is . . . undermining the objectives of the BBBEE Act. Black women ownership stood at only 10.1%. 
The Commission said in a statement that by including BBBEE as an audit requirement and the enforcement action of the commission, reporting and the extent of BBBEE implementation was expected to improve.

Have we become an authoritarian state where government decides for you who can do business and who not? Whatever happened to free trade?
By enforcing quotas in our businesses, government is harming business to such an extent that businesses are closing and capital is flowing out of the country. This is obviously not good for job creation. Quotas have the disadvantage that it will exclude competent people while including less competent people just for the sake of ticking the boxes. Expecting 50% of employees to be female is wrong, as females may not be interested in that particular job. The converse applies where males may not choose a particular job. To fill the quotas, less interested or qualified people gets appointed.

Instead of BEE which is not working, encourage employers to train and upskill employees so that they are able negotiate sustainable employment and to sell their skills to the highest bidder. Skilled people become entrepreneurs who create employment and wealth. They will become the managers and leaders of the future. We need leaders with skills, not selected BEE political cronies who are there only for the money.

We have to grow our economy to create employment, but that can only happen in a free trading environment where businesses are given the flexibility to decide what is good for their future. It is interesting to note that in the USA where people hire and fire (not my favourite), the unemployment rate is 3%. In SA where government and unions force employers to keep underperforming staff, the unemployment rate is 26!

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## Blurock

Let's face it, BEE is not going to save our economy and will not uplift Black people as dreamed up by the ANC. BEE is ruining our economy as new investors are looking for opportunities in countries with less restrictions on their money and their business. It is clearly racial discrimination and is polarizing society to the extent that businesses are closing or jobs are being cut.

I can understand the frustration of workers who get paid the minimum, while the top dogs (Black and White) walk away with the loot. How can we justify a CEO of a listed company earning R60 million p.a. and the workers get R6000 pm? (R72k p.a.= 0.12% of R60 mil) Office workers may get R20 - R30k or up to R360k p.a. That is only 0.6% of the CEO's package. This happens in state owned entities as well aka Eskom, Transnet etc. Just look at the inflated packages of snr municipal managers vs workers. Our wage gap is the legacy of English and British colonialism where colonies have been exploited to the maximum. This is unsustainable and leads to discontent and mistrust and may well end in anarchy.

What may work is the Scandinavian socialist/capitalist economic model of social democracy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model 
In 2019, all five of the Nordic countries ranked in the top 10 on the World Happiness Report. Clearly, they must be doing something right?

Consider a cap on the wage gap so that the R60 mil of the CEO is also shared by the workforce who are mostly living on the breadline. Should these people earn a better wage, it will increase their buying power and will be a great stimulus to the economy. 
Economics teaches us that wealth is created by the flow of money. Money lying idle in the bank is not generating wealth or prosperity, only interest to the holder. This is also seen in China (a communist country) where workers started earning more due to an increase in demand from globalization. Poor workers from rural areas could for the first time buy TV's, fridges and other consumer goods that improved their lives. Today there are many Chinese millionaires benefiting from their communist/capitalist economy, because of increased trade.

Does our govt have the courage to admit that BEE is wrong and is not creating prosperity? Will they consider another economic model?
When will they scrap tribalism and give rural families ownership of their land and their homes. This will give them the opportunity to get loans to educate their children, get access to funding for small business or other entrepreneurial activities. What a boost that would be to our economy.

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## ians

> Let's face it, BEE is not going to save our economy and will not uplift Black people as dreamed up by the ANC. BEE is ruining our economy as new investors are looking for opportunities in countries with less restrictions on their money and their business. It is clearly racial discrimination and is polarizing society to the extent that businesses are closing or jobs are being cut.
> 
> I can understand the frustration of workers who get paid the minimum, while the top dogs (Black and White) walk away with the loot. How can we justify a CEO of a listed company earning R60 million p.a. and the workers get R6000 pm? (R72k p.a.= 0.12% of R60 mil) Office workers may get R20 - R30k or up to R360k p.a. That is only 0.6% of the CEO's package. This happens in state owned entities as well aka Eskom, Transnet etc. Just look at the inflated packages of snr municipal managers vs workers. Our wage gap is the legacy of English and British colonialism where colonies have been exploited to the maximum. This is unsustainable and leads to discontent and mistrust and may well end in anarchy.
> 
> What may work is the Scandinavian socialist/capitalist economic model of social democracy. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model 
> In 2019, all five of the Nordic countries ranked in the top 10 on the World Happiness Report. Clearly, they must be doing something right?
> 
> Consider a cap on the wage gap so that the R60 mil of the CEO is also shared by the workforce who are mostly living on the breadline. Should these people earn a better wage, it will increase their buying power and will be a great stimulus to the economy. 
> Economics teaches us that wealth is created by the flow of money. Money lying idle in the bank is not generating wealth or prosperity, only interest to the holder. This is also seen in China (a communist country) where workers started earning more due to an increase in demand from globalization. Poor workers from rural areas could for the first time buy TV's, fridges and other consumer goods that improved their lives. Today there are many Chinese millionaires benefiting from their communist/capitalist economy, because of increased trade.
> ...


Excuse my ignorance ... but everyday I skim through complaints about the BBEEE ...the government ...how some rich white people people gave billions and not the blacks ...how white cant feed hungry people ...etc etc etc... and at the same time they say we can only watch and smile... its doesnt help getting angry etc etc ... it  makes you wonder about the donations handed over by these rich white people ...what is in it for them... they certainly wouldn't be doing it unless there was something in it for them... the black rich dont have to do anything to get contracts... or fight for land they took when white privilege was a way of life for a minority.

There is no law preventing people supporting small business... or helping other whites who need help....only the greedy selfishness of people who live above their means or have to prove they are better than the Jones. 

I hear contractors complaining all the time about bad workmanship ...i do it myself ... until i realised why the workmanship is so bad... you cannot expect a qualified artisan to do the work cheaper than the price of materials.

Customers are the real problem... expecting to get work done at a labourers rate ...but expecting a qualified person with many years experience to actually do the job.

If your quote is R10 000 and the material cost is R8000 and the labour cost is R2000 ...dont squeal like a stuffed pig when the workmanship looks like crap and you have to keep calling the person back to repair the job... you get what you pay.  

By the way you forgot to mention the unions... anyone know what the union bosses earn in comparison to the "workers".

Its about time a real union with the workers interest at heart ... simple things like the environment we are expected to work in... the aircon in the office stops working ...they down tools and walk out the building ...real workers are expected to work in environments so uncomfortable that it should be classified as unsafe... fat boy who collects union fees arrives in his aircon BMW and shouts the odds ...tells everyone to strike "no work no pay" while his fee and salary is in the bank month after month.

One day when people stop looking down at the real men  in the world who create the 6-7 digit bank accounts for the boss man ...when office staff (overhead) earn twice what a worker (income generator )earns things will start improving.

When you look at how much people are prepared to pay for a person to remove a drain plug from a vehicle or a "technician" with 3 days training in comparison to a qualified artisan with years of training... you start to understand why a labourer is dropped off to do a "hit and run" job.

The whole system is screwed up.

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## Justloadit

And after calling these unskilled workers repeatedly and not solving the problem they call you and complain that your fee is expensive. Had they called in the first place, they would have saved themselves 10 times what iy had cost them.

Quick story in an apartment block where there was some plumbing work done. A tank was installed for a water reservoir to supply water when there is a mains water incoming issue. There was a booster pump.
Funny thing was that every time that the water mains had a issue the complex had no water. They kept on calling the same plumber/electrician, and paying out call out fees for more than a year.
Finally one of the renters was so fed up that he decided to sue the landlord if the problem was not fixed and that he better get a qualified plumber out and pay the going rate.
Took the qualified 5 minutes to figure out that the original installer had swapped the intake and out going pipes to the booster pump. In other words, when there was mains water, it would feed the booster pump directly, and when the mains dropped away, the tank was full, but the pump was sucking from the top of the water tank, instead of the bottom. How much did it cost, not only the tenants, but the landlord, trying to save a buck. 

I hear these stories all the time.

Had another one, solar installation. 400Km away, after inspection, the PV supply cable was nicked and open circuit during installation by a "qualified" installer who knows what he is doing. Got an earful before going out about the crappy equipment we supply. Yep ain't going to get paid for that call out unfortunately.

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## Blurock

I agree with you guys. Ethics is a big problem in business these days because we live in a gangster state where everyone sucks up to the government as they believe that they will get something out. The rich do not care because if you have money, you can change tack. Look at Bossassa and others. Fed the crooks and sucked up to them until they were caught our themselves. ...and who went to jail?!!

It is time for people to stand up for what is right and not give in to unreasonable and crooked demands. How noble is BEE when it prevents white children from getting food parcels? How noble is BEE if our black workers are being penalised for working for a white firm? The minister has made it clear that no aid will be distributed to white firms! This impacts directly on the livelihood of our black workers and their families!

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## Blurock

This article says it all.
12 FEBRUARY 2011
South Africa: Only a matter of time before the bomb explodes 
by Moeletsi Mbeki: Author, political commentator and entrepreneur.

I can predict when SAs "Tunisia Day" will arrive. Tunisia Day is when the masses rise against the powers that be, as happened recently in Tunisia. The year will be 2020, give or take a couple of years. The year 2020 is when China estimates that its current minerals-intensive industrialisation phase will be concluded.

For SA, this will mean the African National Congress (ANC) government will have to cut back on social grants, which it uses to placate the black poor and to get their votes. Chinas current industrialisation phase has forced up the prices of SAs minerals, which has enabled the government to finance social welfare programmes.

The ANC inherited a flawed, complex society it barely understood; its tinkerings with it are turning it into an explosive cocktail. The ANC leaders are like a group of children playing with a hand grenade. One day one of them will figure out how to pull out the pin and everyone will be killed.

A famous African liberation movement, the National Liberation Front of Algeria, after tinkering for 30 years, pulled the grenade pin by cancelling an election in 1991 that was won by the opposition Islamic Salvation Front. In the civil war that ensued, 200000 people were killed.

The former British prime minister, Margaret Thatcher, once commented that whoever thought that the ANC could rule SA was living in Cloud Cuckoo Land. Why was Thatcher right? In the 16 years of ANC rule, all the symptoms of a government out of its depth have grown worse.

Life expectancy has declined from 65 years to 53 years since the ANC came to power;
In 2007, SA became a net food importer for the first time in its history;
The elimination of agricultural subsidies by the government led to the loss of 600000 farm workers jobs and the eviction from the commercial farming sector of about 2,4-million people between 1997 and 2007; and
The ANC stopped controlling the borders, leading to a flood of poor people into SA, which has led to conflicts between SAs poor and foreign African migrants.
What should the ANC have done, or be doing?

The answer is quite straightforward. When they took control of the government in 1994, ANC leaders should have: identified what SAs strengths were; identified what SAs weaknesses were; and decided how to use the strengths to minimise and/or rectify the weaknesses.

A wise government would have persuaded the skilled white and Indian population to devote some of their time  even an hour a week  to train the black and coloured population to raise their skill levels.

What the ANC did instead when it came to power was to identify what its leaders and supporters wanted. It then used SAs strengths to satisfy the short-term consumption demands of its supporters. In essence, this is what is called black economic empowerment (BEE).

BEE promotes a number of extremely negative socioeconomic trends in our country. It promotes a class of politicians dependent on big business and therefore promotes big businesss interests in the upper echelons of government. Second, BEE promotes an anti-entrepreneurial culture among the black middle class by legitimising an environment of entitlement. Third, affirmative action, a subset of BEE, promotes incompetence and corruption in the public sector by using ruling party allegiance and connections as the criteria for entry and promotion in the public service, instead of having tough public service entry examinations.

Lets see where BEE, as we know it today, actually comes from. I first came across the concept of BEE from a company, which no longer exists, called Sankor. Sankor was the industrial division of Sanlam and it invented the concept of BEE.

The first purpose of BEE was to create a buffer group among the black political class that would become an ally of big business in SA. This buffer group would use its newfound power as controllers of the government to protect the assets of big business.

The buffer group would also protect the modus operandi of big business and thereby maintain the status quo in which South African business operates. That was the design of the big conglomerates.

Sanlam was soon followed by Anglo American. Sanlam established BEE vehicle Nail; Anglo established Real Africa, Johnnic and so forth. The conglomerates took their marginal assets, and gave them to politically influential black people, with the purpose, in my view, not to transform the economy but to create a black political class that is in alliance with the conglomerates and therefore wants to maintain the status quo of our economy and the way in which it operates.

But what is wrong with protecting SAs conglomerates?

Well, there are many things wrong with how conglomerates operate and how they have structured our economy.

The economy has a strong built-in dependence on cheap labour;
It has a strong built-in dependence on the exploitation of primary resources;
It is strongly unfavourable to the development of skills in our general population;
It has a strong bias towards importing technology and economic solutions; and
It promotes inequality between citizens by creating a large, marginalised underclass.
Conglomerates are a vehicle, not for creating development in SA but for exploiting natural resources without creating in-depth, inclusive social and economic development, which is what SA needs. That is what is wrong with protecting conglomerates.

The second problem with the formula of BEE is that it does not create entrepreneurs. You are taking political leaders and politically connected people and giving them assets which, in the first instance, they dont know how to manage. So you are not adding value. You are faced with the threat of undermining value by taking assets from people who were managing them and giving them to people who cannot manage them. BEE thus creates a class of idle rich ANC politicos.

My quarrel with BEE is that what the conglomerates are doing is developing a new culture in SA  not a culture of entrepreneurship, but an entitlement culture, whereby black people who want to go into business think that they should acquire assets free, and that somebody is there to make them rich, rather than that they should build enterprises from the ground.

But we cannot build black companies if what black entrepreneurs look forward to is the distribution of already existing assets from the conglomerates in return for becoming lobbyists for the conglomerates.

The third worrying trend is that the ANC-controlled state has now internalised the BEE model. We are now seeing the state trying to implement the same model that the conglomerates developed.

What is the state distributing? It is distributing jobs to party faithful and social welfare to the poor. This is a recipe for incompetence and corruption, both of which are endemic in SA. This is what explains the service delivery upheavals that are becoming a normal part of our environment.

So what is the correct road SA should be travelling?

We all accept that a socialist model, along the lines of the Soviet Union, is not workable for SA today. The creation of a state-owned economy is not a formula that is an option for SA or for many parts of the world. Therefore, if we want to develop SA instead of shuffling pre-existing wealth, we have to create new entrepreneurs, and we need to support existing entrepreneurs to diversify into new economic sectors.

Mbeki is the author of Architects of Poverty: Why African Capitalism Needs Changing. This article forms part of a series on transformation supplied by the Centre for Development and Enterprise.

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## Blurock

What would have happened if Moeletsi Mbeki instead of his brother became president of South Africa?
I have the greatest respect for this man. His analysis of our financial and political environment was spot-on and we are now experiencing what he predicted 10 years ago. If you have not read his article posted in the previous thread, I urge you to do it now.

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## Blurock

So the (unfortunate) prediction made by Moeletsi Mbeki in 2011 was right on the button. If you have not read his book yet, do it now.

*South Africa: Only a matter of time before the bomb explodes*
by Moeletsi Mbeki: Author, political commentator and entrepreneur.

The country is basically bankrupt and state coffers are empty. The tax base is shrinking. It is reported that about 73% of the R529bn in personal income tax collected in 2019 was paid by a mere 529 230 individual taxpayers, many of whom are skilled, mobile and likely to emigrate as services deteriorate. That is the reason why the ANC is now looking at other sources of income; land expropriation without compensation, NHI (to take money from the medical aids), prescribed assets: compulsory investments in state entities by pension and investment funds. Several state-owned enterprises  think Eskom, SAA and the SABC as the most topical examples  have required inordinate amounts of money from the government to stay afloat, and the SA Revenue Service seems to be lagging on its tax collection targets.

*Blatant Elite Enrichment*, also known as BEE, has ruined South Africa by enabling corruption and elitism. I am all for black entrepreneurs being successful and for black managers to be recognized and advanced. However, no entrepreneur, not qualified in racial terms, will risk investing in a new business (creating jobs) where there is so much uncertainty and where he/she is not in control of the business that they have started. 

The ANC's racist policies have rather encouraged the people with knowledge or the means to start a business to emigrate and to look elsewhere. Imagine if Elon Musk had started his business in South Africa!

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## Marq

More like an implosion rather than a bomb explosion.

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## Blurock

In an article by Anthea Jeffrey, she comments that the SACP/ANC alliance is committed to a national democratic revolution (NDR) aimed at so crippling the capitalist economy that South Africa can in time be pushed into socialism and then a communist nirvana. Its many NDR interventions are the main reason why poverty and inequality have increased so greatly since 1994 – and especially within the black population.




> Much of the fault lies with the race-based employment equity and black economic empowerment rules that enrich a narrow and politically connected elite while impoverishing and greatly harming the black majority.
> 
> These rules, along with the destructive cadre deployment and tenderpreneurship they have spawned, have spread dysfunctionality across the public service, triggered the collapse of many municipalities, crippled Eskom and other SOEs, facilitated corruption way beyond ‘Zupta’ state capture, prompted an exodus of capital and skills, reduced growth to rates far below those in other emerging markets, and increased the number of jobless black people (on the expanded definition) from 3.2 million in 1994 to 10.3 million today.
> 
> Credentialed group (Blatant Elite Enrichment)
> 
> Like other race-based rules across the world, South Africa’s policies benefit only the most skilled and credentialed group, which comprises roughly 15% of the black population. By contrast, the remaining 85% of black South Africans have little prospect of ever gaining access to BEE deals, management posts, or preferential tenders at inflated prices. They are, however, continually harmed by all the adverse consequences of these rules.

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## Blurock

Telkom CEO Sipho Maseko recently spoke about how BEE can actually be harmful to local businesses and noted just how easy it is to get around loopholes, that end up harming local businesses and the economy.

This unfair practice of discrimination against minorities may however come to an end as the ANC government is updating the Promotion of Equality and Prevention of Unfair Discrimination Act, colloquially referred to as Pepuda. The scope of the Pepuda Bill proposes to prohibit not just unfair, intentional discrimination that is related to 18 listed criteria, but even discrimination which is fair or unintentional. The Bill demands the elimination of all discrimination  irrespective of whether it is fair or unfair  as part of the general obligation to promote equality.

The Pepuda Bill runs counter to long-standing ANC policy on race, whereby Race-based black economic empowerment (BEE), employment equity, and preferential policies will no longer be treated as examples of fair discrimination. Instead, all these policies will have to terminated in keeping with the general obligation to promote equality by eliminating discrimination.

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## Justloadit

And if it is like any of the elite court actions, it will take years before actually happening.

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## Blurock

> And if it is like any of the elite court actions, it will take years before actually happening.


Agreed, the dysfunctional government has lost all credibility. The acting Secretary General actually declaring that they love the man who bought South Africa to its knees by facilitating state capture, stealing trillions and then disrespecting the judiciary with contempt of court. This is scandalous and he should actually be tried for treason as an enemy of the people.

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## Blurock

The IRR released a statement yesterday has tabled three proposals that it believes would quickly revive the economy.  
These proposals are: 

 Protect property rights;

 End all race-based policies; and

 Implement Economic Empowerment for the Disadvantaged.

The statement said: instead of race-based policies, South Africa must implement an effective, non-racial empowerment policy. Our proposal, Economic Empowerment for the Disadvantaged (EED), would give businesses an incentive to grow and create jobs, while also empowering those South Africans who most need it and putting an end to the perpetual enrichment of a greedy elite.

https://dailyfriend.co.za/2021/07/20...avetheeconomy/

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## Blurock

taken from Biz News Insider:

There is much good being done by South Africans  often in spite of official directives rather than because of them. Take the example of Anthony Krijger, an entrepreneur from Westville in KZN, who wrote:

As a company weve been doing exactly what Mike du Toit suggests.

Weve trained in-house when weve needed new warehousemen, forklift drivers, drivers etc. All our labour started life with us as being totally unskilled. We started by sending them on a course learning to drive a forklift. Weve trained drivers by funding their driving lessons and test with the agreement that if they pass the company pays for everything. If they fail, they owe the money back. But when they pass ultimately, we refund them all their costs.

We pay to train staff on various computer and IT courses as most dont come to us with the required skills. If there are courses that employees wish to go on, the company encourages this and pays for the course, so long as it is relevant. The results are that weve grown with our staff, although we are still a small family business. We have a really low (actually non-existent) staff turnover and we try to make our workplace a place where staff look forward to going to, seeing as they almost spend more time at work than leisure time with their families.

The galling thing is that in spite of this, we are still seen by authorities as a white non-BEE business rather than a family business that aspires to ensure staff get ahead with their careers and create a comfortable and pleasant work environment that is totally non-discriminatory in any way whatsoever.

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## adrianh

I suppose the government would say that it is all good but that there is still no ownership. By analogy: "We own a huge mansion in Camps Bay and our servants are well treated" - The government wants part ownership for the non-white workers (for free)

I am just speculating about the possible reasoning of the government.

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## ians

I enjoy watching this fella.


https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCzq...G1zkn9Gc9prudw

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## Blurock

In an article written on the 18th of November 2020 on the University of the Witwatersrands website, William Gumede, an associate professor in the School of Governance at the university writes a scathing critique of Broad-Based Black Economic Empowerment(BEE).

He describes it as:

Arguably one of the most wasteful, costly, and ineffective redistribution strategies, devised in any post-colonial society since the end of the Second World War.

I fully agree and tip my hat to you sir.
I refuse to register for BEE and will not support such a destructive and corrupt system.

Read the full article https://dailyfriend.co.za/2021/10/02...ils-of-b-bbee/

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Derlyn (10-Oct-21)

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## Blurock

> John Endres: As the JSC interviews showed, the transformation agenda ensures that SA fails to use its talent pool effectively, while providing a convenient point of entry to individuals who lack the requisite skills.


I am all for equal opportunity and transformation, however, the Ain't No Responsibility party is now loading the judiciary with their cadres and ignoring the competent and better qualified candidates. They even have some dubious characters with proven cases of incompetence and bias on their shortlist. How independent can our judiciary then be in future?

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## ians

Its like anything in life ... you give a little or take a step back ... people will walk all over you.

An example back in the 80's I worked for a company ... I worked long hours 7 days a week ... I was sent to other sites to "help" move jobs along when they were getting behind ... I was given tasks nobody else in the company could do ... like building 6 movie houses from scratch ... doing complete fire alarm system installations etc. 

I was promised that I would become a Forman and get a vehicle ... the new shopping centre started construction ... before I knew it ...  there others who had started after me ... but because of a bra hey and a bra there in key positions ... other less qualified and less experienced electricians took the foreman position and got the company vehicle ... when I did national service ... by the time I completed my national service ... the electrician positions were already filled by others who didnt have to do national service ... 1600 of us were given trade hand jobs and our salaries cut in half ... people need to wake up and look around ... dont worry about blacks taking the jobs and tenders etc open your eyes.

I see it happening with many companies ... you look at the ratios ... look at who are the managers ... the sales personal ... the accounts department ... look at the government look at who holds the key positions who gets the tenders ... who is sitting in the back round controlling the money and positions.

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## Blurock

In 2012 an anonymous BEE businessman explained why tender prices were often so inflated: You pay to be introduced to the political principals, he said. You pay to get a tender, you pay to be paid [for completed work], and you must also grease the machinery. From time to time, you are called upon to make donations to theANC. There are also donations to the youth league, the womens league, and the SACP. Those who failed to make the necessary payments either in cash or in kind  by giving sub-contracts to the relatives of public servants and politicians  would find themselves excluded from state contracts worth many millions of Rands.

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## Blurock

Excerpts from an article by Anthea Jeffery shows just how damaging BEE is to our economy, job creation and the advancement and integration of Black Business:
 Last week the Constitutional Court struck down the Preferential Procurement Regulations (the Regulations) gazetted in 2017 under the Preferential Procurement Policy Framework Act (PPPFA) of 2000. 

As the SCA pointed out, Section 217(1) requires that all public procurement be effected in accordance with a system that is *fair, equitable, transparent, competitive, and cost-effective*.  As an exception to this general rule, Section 217(2) adds that national legislation must prescribe a framework within which preferential procurement policies may be implemented to protect or advance the disadvantage.

The Regulations allowed organs of state to set pre-qualifying criteria, under which a company wanting to tender for a contract had to have a stipulated minimum BEE status level if it was to be considered at all. In practice, this minimum was often set at 51% (or even at 100%) BEE ownership, even though the ownership target under the BEE generic codes is 25%.

These pre-qualification criteria were unconstitutional. They also made for inflated pricing and poor delivery as many businesses with competitively priced and high-quality products were excluded from tendering.  This also helps explain why the states contract prices are often so absurdly high: R40m for a school that should have cost R15m, as Pravin Gordhan said in 2009, R27 for a bottle of water that should have cost R7, as Gwede Mantashe added in 2012, and a staggering R238 000 for a wooden mop, as Eskom reported in 2021.

The immediate effect of the judgment is that 51% BEE ownership requirements and other pre-qualification criteria earlier imposed under the ministers Regulations can no longer be applied in public procurement. Does it also mean that the Constitutional Court is becoming more alive to the negative practical effects of preferential procurement policies?

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## GCE

There has being a directive issued by National Treasury in response to the court ruling 

Unfortunately my feeling is that the knee jerk reaction from government appears to have made things worse and will have a massive short term effect of contracts awarded and service delivery.
As far as I am aware all organs of state , municipalities etc will have to adhere to

Normally there are numerous tenders that come out at this time of the year because of year ends and projects having to start in the present financial year which ends in June 

I have attached the directive 

The basics out of the directive as copied and pasted from the directive are 

While awaiting the outcome of the above guidance from the Constitutional Court , organs of state are advised that - 
- Tenders advertised before 16th February 2022 be finalized in terms of the Procurement Regulations 
- tenders advertised on or after 16 February 2022 be held in abeyance ; and 
- no new tenders be advertised

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## Blurock

> While awaiting the outcome of the above guidance from the Constitutional Court , organs of state are advised that - 
> - Tenders advertised before 16th February 2022 be finalized in terms of the Procurement Regulations 
> - tenders advertised on or after 16 February 2022 be held in abeyance ; and 
> - no new tenders be advertised


There is obviously a very easy way to settle this problem. Adhere to the court's judgment and immediately Scrap BEE! It is unconstitutional, illegal and it has the effect of inflating prices and poor delivery as many businesses with competitively priced and high-quality products are being excluded from tendering. 

Only the connected elite benefit from BEE, the vast majority of the black population never will. Worse still, BEE policies are actively sabotaging the prospects of South Africas mostly black poor and unemployed citizens to navigate a way out of their dire situation.

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## Dave A

It appears National Treasury would rather government procurement comes to a halt than abandon their preferential procurement policy allowing total exclusion below level 2 BEE status.

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## Blurock

> It appears National Treasury would rather government procurement comes to a halt than abandon their preferential procurement policy allowing total exclusion below level 2 BEE status.


The kleptocracy continues. BEE is a licence for the pirates of the Ain't No Consequences party to keep stealing from the South African public.



> BEE businessman who explained why tender prices were often so inflated: You pay to be introduced to the political principals, he said. You pay to get a tender, you pay to be paid [for completed work], and you must also grease the machinery. From time to time, you are called upon to make donations to theANC. There are also donations to the youth league, the womens league, and the SACP. Those who failed to make the necessary payments either in cash or in kind  by giving sub-contracts to the relatives of public servants and politicians  would find themselves excluded from state contracts worth many millions of rands.


That explains the absurdly inflated state tenders: R40m for a school that should have cost R15m, R27 for a bottle of water that should have cost R7, and a staggering R238 000 for a wooden mop, as Eskom reported in 2021.

Everyone knows what the problem is but nobody is prepared to do something about it. It is time for the courts and business people to strike down this evil policy of a kleptocratic government.

Even the SACP has identified the system as the primary reason for mounting inequality since 1994.
In 2017 the party warned that the intra-African inequality which BEE has fostered is the main contributor to South Africas extraordinarily high Gini coefficient of income inequality. Added the SACP: Enriching a select BEE few via share dealsor (worse still) looting public propertyin the name of broad-based black empowerment is resulting in.increasing poverty for the majority, increasing racial inequality, and persisting mass unemployment.

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