# Social Category > South African Politics Forum >  Land Reform in South Africa: Unpacking a very contentious issue

## Citizen X

“The more things change, the more they stay the same!”
Land Reform in South Africa: Unpacking a very contentious issue
Very controversial, very contentious and heated emotions on all sides. Our leaders should not remain silent and thereby endorse alternatively encourage a genocide!!!
1. Any argument in favour of land reform is very contentious to say the very least. We have an Apartheid legacy where people were forcibly removed and thereby displaced from their land and property. To even think that land reform can be considered in a Constitutional democracy is very disturbing! This should not even be an option. By even considering land reform without compensation is simply to engage in the very repugnant behaviour that the former Apartheid Government engaged in;
2. Animal Farm: I am by no means suggesting or alluding to a misconception that our leaders are animals. Our South African people are famous for taking things out of context and connecting invisible lines with separate dots! In my opinion one of the purposes of George Orwell’s satirical Animal farm is for us as South African citizens to be able to identify hypocrisy, the very corrupting influence of power, corruption, and to compare the characters and behaviour of our current leaders with the characters that manifest in the book. Our key question should be: are our leaders any different??
3. Animal farm demonstrates that the Union of Soviet Socialist Republics that replaced Tsar Nicholas 11 was far worse when it came to genocide, atrocities and crimes against humanity! ‘economic freedom in our life time,’ simply means succumbing to the lure of power at any cost and by any means. Such succumbing to power is to detriment of the White minority. So did reconciliation really take place or is it possible that certain persons have vengeful intent?
4. I willing to accept very little opinion with regards to communism as I have engaged in extensive study of communism from 1986 to date. I am very familiar with all of Karl Marx’s writings and not just ‘das capital,’ I know enough to state and confirm for the record that Karl Marx himself did not even identify Russia as a possible state for communism. His first choice was England and then Germany. Karl Marx never provided any form of blue print for communism but rather choice to focus the vast majority of his writings on a criticism of capitalism. You see every fanatic that thinks he is a revolutionary does not have a thorough understanding of all the writings of Karl Marx. I’m willing to bet money that if the leaders of the ANCYL and I were given a written test by an independent examiner on all of Karl Marx’s writings they would fail dismally! I state and confirm for the record that Marxian economics is far more challenging than capitalistic economics. I had a misguided romantic perception of communism as a kid really believing that its purpose was to promote true equality between men and distribute land equitably. History tells us that this was not the case!
5. This concept of land reform and land redistribution has its historical routes with the Russian revolution in 1917. The idea was that the peasants of that day would take over the land of the so called noble class and then distribute it.
6. One must appreciate though that the peasants of that day were living in abject misery. Initially both Lenin and Trotsky identified these needs of the masses and merely told them what they wanted to hear. You see you can’t have radical land redistribution without making the vast majority of a countries people genuinely angry and making them genuinely feel robbed and entitled to more than what they currently have. The view was that the land should belong to those who worked such land. So the promise that Trotsky and Lenin made was in essence ‘economic freedom in your life time.’ It’s noteworthy that they did not use these exact same words but this is nonetheless what they were promising!
7. Animal Farm demonstrates that what was promised to the people i.e. ‘economic freedom in your lifetime,’ was never attained, the new guard the USSR treated their own people with brutality. There was no true equality, no measurable economic freedom in their lifetime. There was poverty, sickness and millions died in very ugly ways.
8. Animal farm demonstrates how leaders can be corrupted. The novel never really condemned the actual act of the Russian revolution but rather the hypocrisy of the new leaders. It showed how they changed the ideals that they promised, it showed how what these leaders said would never happen with the transition actually happened 10 fold. The book clearly shows how ignorance to the proper resolution of problems can allow genocide and atrocities. The key attributes of those new revolutionary leaders was cruelty, deception, wickedness, ignorance, greed and an inability to resolve major problems without harming people in that process!!!
9. In the book Napoleon is an allegory of Joseph Stalin. Okay so the animals take over the farm and create what they call the 7 commandsments:
1. Whatever goes upon two legs is an enemy.
2. Whatever goes upon four legs, or has wings, is a friend.
3. No animal shall wear clothes.
4. No animal shall sleep in a bed.
5. No animal shall drink alcohol.
6. No animal shall kill any other animal.
7. All animals are equal.
10. They change the commandments to the following:
1. No animal shall sleep in a bed with sheets.
2. No animal shall drink alcohol to excess.
3. No animal shall kill any other animal without cause.
11. Napoleon(Stalin) realizes that he needs an angry and influential youth to carry out his agenda. He takes the puppies of Jessie and Bluebell, and trains them to be his security force, basically an unlimited angry mob of youth that will do whatever to instruct them to do.
12. Our South African context: The ANC stood against Apartheid. During Apartheid people were forcibly removed from their land, there was no freedom of expression. The ANCYL is still an organ of the ANC. The ANC demonstrated that freedom of expression in their favour is fine but that freedom of expression not in their favour requires protest marches, press conferences and instigating racial division! You see, it quite alright to ‘shoot the boer,’ but it’s another thing for an artist to draw a satirical painting of the president. The Apartheid government forcibly removed people from their land, how can the ruling party even allow the ANCYL to even talk about land reform without compensation?????
13. I support voluntary land reform with full compensation i.e. a farmer says, ‘I’m going to hang up my farming boots, I’m going into the panel beating business. The value of my farm with improvements if 20 million, I’ll take cash please!” And, that will be that.
14. Ronald Lamola essentially said that if White South African farmers don’t willingly hand over their land to poor Black people land invasions similar to what took place in Zimabawe will happen right here in South Africa. He went on further to say that the safety of “Van Tonders and the Van der Merwes on farms” would not be guaranteed“If they don’t want to see angry black youths flooding their farms they must come to the party. Whites must volunteer some of the land and mines they own.”The ANCYL spokesperson has this to say Magdalene Moonsamy said the groups needed to be "ready for the fight of their lives"."We welcome this battle, and we will not retreat. We are adamant that this issue of land cannot be negotiated, and at no point will we will we back down."Ronald Lamola postulated that the Constitution of 1996 should be amended Lamola to allow for the expropriation of land without compensation. “He warned that if white South Africans did not hand land over to poor blacks, there could be land invasions like those which took place in Zimbabwe.”
15. Ronald lamola, the only place that you’ll find success before work is in the English dictionary! Nothing x nothing is still nothing! i.e. 0 x 0 = 0!
16. I’m no politician but I know that youth leaders of all the political parties should be addressing issues that affect the youth such as teenage pregnancy, substance abuse, education, hiv/aids etc
17. He should be charged with several more criminal offences: 1: conspiracy to commit theft, assault and murder.”Any person who ... conspires with any other person to aid or procure the commission of or to commit ... any offence ... shall be guilty of an offence.” “This provision does not differentiate between a successful conspiracy (ie one followed by the actual commission of the crime) and one not followed by any further steps towards the commission of the crime. Theoretically it is possible to charge and convict people of contravention of this provision even though the crime envisaged was indeed subsequently committed.” 2: Incite to commit assault, theft and murder:”In South Africa incitement to commit a crime is not a common-law crime, but a statutory crime. Section 18 (2)(b) of the Riotous Assemblies Act 17 of 1956 criminalises incitement to commit crimes. The relevant parts of this section read as follows: Any person who incites, instigates, commands or procures any other person to commit any offence shall be guilty of an offence.”
18. “ In Nkosiyana an inciter was described as somebody ``who reaches out and seeks to influence the mind of another to the commission of a crime''. Whether the other person (Y) is capable of being persuaded is immaterial. Neither do the means X uses to influence or try to influence Y carry any weight. The emphasis is therefore on X's conduct, and not that of Y. The incitement may take place either explicitly of implicitly.”
19. Section 25 of the Constitution of 1996 deals with property rights. 
20. The government itself owns vast amounts of land, so do traditional leaders. They should start with redistributing this land and enter into negotiations for voluntary land reform with full compensation.
It’s not a matter of a simple barren veld we talking about here. We talking about land whose value due to improvements, buildings, crops, fertilising the ground etc has increased in value.
21. I support the redressing of past unfairness but not to the detriment of any minority. I support voluntary land reform with full market value compensation

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## vieome

<rant>
In Zimbabwe they just took the land by force. 
In America you want a piece of real estate and you a big property developer, and the real estate you after is some lowly block of flats that you intend to convert to an upmarket mall. You try to buy the tenants out but they refuse, so you use unconventional methods to force them out of the flats, you make the flats a place that no one wants to live so that eventually the tenants sell you the property as Rock bottom prices.

In south africa I dont know what model they will use, but it will happen. 

Land is one of the most valuable commoditys on the planet. Many people think Macdonalds takeaway is in the fast food industry, but really when you remove the wool from your eyes you see that Macdonalds is in the real estate market.  
</rant>

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Citizen X (09-Jun-12)

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## tec0

There is nothing left to say. The youth league started up again this time stating outright they will use violence. This is fact it was stated in the open on Television in full view of reporters and followers alike. 

The question now is: Is it not time for "other" politicians and entities to consult the United Nations and get peace troops emplace to protect those that is in need of protection?

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Citizen X (08-Jun-12)

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## Citizen X

* A two thirds majority is required to amend fundamental rights.
**1.     This is how the Constitution stands(unamended) as at today’s date:*
*“ Property* 
*(1) No one may be deprived of property except in terms of law of general application, and no law may permit arbitrary deprivation of property.* 
*(2) Property may be expropriated only in terms of law of general application-* 
*(a) for a public purpose or in the public interest; and* 
*(b) subject to compensation, the amount of which and the time and manner of payment of which have either been agreed to by those affected or decided or approved by a court.* 
*(3) The amount of the compensation and the time and manner of payment must be just and equitable, reflecting an equitable balance between the public interest and the interests of those affected, having regard to all relevant circumstances, including-* 
*(a) the current use of the property;* 
*(b) the history of the acquisition and use of the property;* 
*(c) the market value of the property;* 
*(d) the extent of direct state investment and subsidy in the acquisition and beneficial capital improvement of the property; and* 
*(e) the purpose of the expropriation.* 
*(4) For the purposes of this section-* 
*(a) the public interest includes the nation's commitment to land reform, and to reforms to bring about equitable access to all South Africa's natural resources; and* 
*(b) property is not limited to land.* 
*(5) The state must take reasonable legislative and other measures, within its available resources, to foster conditions which enable citizens to gain access to land on an equitable basis.* 
*(6) A person or community whose tenure of land is legally insecure as a result of past racially discriminatory laws or practices is entitled, to the extent provided by an Act of Parliament, either to tenure which is legally secure or to comparable redress.* 
*(7) A person or community dispossessed of property after 19 June 1913 as a result of past racially discriminatory laws or practices is entitled, to the extent provided by an Act of Parliament, either to restitution of that property or to equitable redress.* 
*(8) No provision of this section may impede the state from taking legislative and other measures to achieve land, water and related reform, in order to redress the results of past racial discrimination, provided that any departure from the provisions of this section is in accordance with the provisions of section 36 (1).* 
*(*9) Parliament must enact the legislation referred to in subsection (6).



*


*

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tec0 (08-Jun-12)

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## Citizen X

The question of land redistribution in South Africa defies a short answer. There are compelling arguments for and against land redistribution. I stand apposed to involuntary land redistribution without compensation. I support voluntary land redistribution with full compensation. I submit that no Government of South Africa present or future can justly postulate a working model on involuntary land distribution without compensation simply because of our Apartheid legacy of forcibly removing people from their land and/or property. To engage in such policies will simply be to repeat the very mistakes that the repugnant apartheid government committed which in essence will make you no better but in fact much worse because you doing it after the fact of apartheid and after the fact that knowing its wrong! It’s common cause that land redistribution does really need to take place to redress past unfairness’s. This cannot be seen to suggest that land invasion Zimbabwe style is the way forward. 
I’m not for racial issues, never was and never will be. I am for humanitarian causes. The only requirement you have to comply with to have human rights is that you must be a human being. There remains no other requirements whatsoever! Our leaders should engage in nation building not fueling racial tensions!
1. We need to understand land reform within our Constitutional framework and background. We had a peaceful transition from the Apartheid government and the ANC.The result was the constitutional assembly which drafted the interim constitution. The result was the Constitution of 1996. We did not have the type of revolution experienced in Russia in 1917. Violent redistribution of land has its historical routes there. By virtue of the fact that we had a peaceful transition with ubuntu and reconciliation as corner stones we cannot accept a situation where on the 7 June 2012 we now talking about land invasion and using innuendo to suggest that if White farmers don’t voluntarily hand over their land it will be forcibly taken;
2. As non whites we were simply not strong enough to over throw the Apartheid regime by coup or revolution in the context of the French revolution and Russian revolution. One must appreciate this fact! If a violent revolution occurred then, yes, there would have been the obvious forceful land redistribution. This was not the case in South Africa 
3. In the 17 century White settlers essentially ended up owning more than 80% of the land. Our liberation struggle and transition was completely different from that of Zimbabwe and Mozambique. In both these liberation struggles the common denominator was land. This was not the case with our South African struggle even though it was common because that past unfairness’s need to be redressed. It’s common cause that land redistribution does need to take place to redress past unfairness. You cannot allow a situation where land invasion Zimbabwe style takes place. You cannot condone a situation where people are forcibly removed from their land. This is exactly what the Apartheid government done. To engage in similar activities makes you just as repugnant as the Apartheid government; We had peaceful negotiations between the NP and Madiba. The result was an interim Constitution and finally the Constitution of 1996.
4. It’s common cause that colonialism and apartheid systematically undermined African agriculture. No one disputes this. No one disputes that past unfairness needs to be redressed. As mentioned in the previous post, the Constitutional home for land is section 25 of the Constitution of 1996. Section 5 reads as follows: “The state must take reasonable legislative and other measures, within its available resources, to foster conditions which enable citizens to gain access to land on an equitable basis.” It is this sub section that will ultimately govern what is done regarding land redistribution, land tenure reform and land restitution. We know that the Judiciary is tasked with interpreting legislation. The question is how the Judiary will interpret section 25(1) of the Constitution of 1996 in particular section 25(1); (2)(a) &(b) which read as follows:-No one may be deprived of property except in terms of law of general application, and no law may permit arbitrary deprivation of property. Property may be expropriated only in terms of law of general application- (a) for a public purpose or in the public interest; and (b) subject to compensation, the amount of which and the time and manner of payment of which have either been agreed to by those affected or decided or approved by a court. 
5. Ronald Lamola’s comment that we should have a ‘Minister of Expropriation without compensation,’ was distasteful and cannot be reconciled with the Constitution of 1996. If this comment is read in conjunction with his other comments such as “We as black people cannot continue apologising to white people in this country for things they have done,” and his comment something along the lines of if Whites don’t voluntarily hand over their land he could not guarantee the safety of the “Van Tonders and the Van der Merwes on farms", alludes to genocide as a very specific community is identified namely the White Afrikaner community.
6. *Voluntary land reform with full compensation is perhaps a more reasonable approach*. When the land was initially taken, it was a barren veld. As at today’s date, the farm owners have added value to this land in the form of buildings, boreholes, wells and other visible and tangible improvements. They have also invested into the fertilization of such land. One must never marginalize the benefit they’ve added to our economy directly and indirectly. In my layperson’s opinion this benefit they’ve added to the economy should be seen as some form of payment for such land. These farmers have actually already paid their debt to our society for past unfairness by promoting economic growth which benefits us all. The Constitution of 1996 should be amended to state that no White farmer will ever be forcibly removed from their land with no compensation;
7. A struggle song especially a reggae struggle song is relative to whomsoever is being subjugated and oppressed on the basis of race at any stage in history. This is why reggae remains timeless and universal.
8. In 1963 the emperor of Ethiopia, Haile Selasie(whom I personally see only as an interesting figure and nothing more, respect etc to people who see him in a different light, a conversation for another day, I’ve extensively studied Selasies’s life and all his speeches for about 20 years!), delivered a speech to the United Nations It largely focused on discrimination on the basis of race and the consequence of such discrimination. Bob Marley recorded a song called ‘war,’ in 1976 on the Rastaman vibration album. I love the artwork on the cover of that album, Marley is depicted in military uniform.
"What life has taught me I’d like to share with those who want to learn: Until the philosophy which holds one race superior and another inferior is finally and permanently discredited and abandoned: That until there are no longer first-class and second class citizens of any nation; That until the color of a man's skin is of no more significance than the color of his eyes; That until the basic human rights are equally guaranteed to all without regard to race; That until that day, the dream of lasting peace and world citizenship and the rule of international morality will remain but a fleeting illusion, to be pursued but never attained; And until the ignoble and unhappy regimes that hold our brothers in Angola, in Mozambique and in South Africa in subhuman bondage have been toppled and destroyed; Until bigotry and prejudice and malicious and inhuman self-interest have been replaced by understanding and tolerance and good-will; Until all Africans stand and speak as free beings, equal in the eyes of all men, as they are in the eyes of Heaven; Until that day, the African continent will not know peace. We Africans will fight, if necessary, and we know that we shall win, as we are confident in the victory of good over evil..." 
Just recently Robert Mugabe was also using the ‘Boer,’ term in a distasteful manner. It’s noteworthy that it coincides with whatever else is taking place in South Africa these past 3 weeks in particular. In short Mugabe called on the ANC to ignore a court order in which authorities in South Africa are ordered to investigate human rights atrocities outside its borders.
Mugagbe had this to say:-. "That judgment by that boer like the outrageous ones of the SADC Tribunal is a direct assault on our sovereignty by shameless forces afflicted by racist nostalgia."

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tec0 (08-Jun-12)

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## gac

Vanash, you're being way to kind to the "wet behind the ears" Lamola and his other can't get a real job ANCYL clowns by providing such a detailed civilised debate. I think their response to your intelligent perspective would be "eh um eh um..." or similar. Its a joke that they're given so much publicity and news space in SA. 

This Land Redistibrution thing is simple for me. If I received land for free (inherited or gifted to me and for which payment cannot be proved) AND can be proved to have been taken forcibly from someone else, then and THEN ONLY consider taking it away on one condition - that it be given back to a person or provable direct descendant of the person it was originally taken from. If not, and there is proof I paid for it OR it cannot be proved that it had been forcibly removed AND FROM WHOM, regardless of who I bought it from, then buzz off.

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Citizen X (09-Jun-12)

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## tec0

Let's take a look at Africa, is it not true that regardless of the fact that they are "majority only" and the fact that world has given millions upon millions upon billions to help them, all they got was guns to intimidate each other? Is it not true that in some places it is so bad that not even the Red Cross can enter and help? 

Is it not fact that despite all the aid provided that bad things still happen? 

I will say it again it is not about majority owned or minority owned land, government or stuff like that. It is about "who is in control" In some of the African countries good people are in control and you see good things happening. In other parts of Africa there are bad people and you see bad things happening. This is fact. 

In the end it comes down to the fact that the followers must look at their leaders and make a decision is this leader a good person that wants good things? Or a bad person that wants bad things? Only when these questions are answered truthfully is there any hope

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Citizen X (09-Jun-12)

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## Justloadit

> In the end it comes down to the fact that the followers must look at their leaders and make a decision is this leader a good person that wants good things? Or a bad person that wants bad things? Only when these questions are answered truthfully is there any hope…


You only have a luxury of this decision making in a democracy, else you will be quietly snuffed out to not incite other members of the public to revolt  against the 'bad' leader'. There are currently a number of examples.

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tec0 (10-Jun-12)

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## Citizen X

> This Land Redistibrution thing is simple for me. If I received land for free (inherited or gifted to me and for which payment cannot be proved) AND can be proved to have been taken forcibly from someone else, then and THEN ONLY consider taking it away on one condition - that it be given back to a person or provable direct descendant of the person it was originally taken from. If not, and there is proof I paid for it OR it cannot be proved that it had been forcibly removed AND FROM WHOM, regardless of who I bought it from, then buzz off.


I am non partisan.If one were to assume that the unthinkable, the inconceivable really takes place, then it begs a very simple question: Who are these poor Black people who will get this land? Are these poor Black people: Julius Malema, Ronald Lamola , the ANC, all their friends and family?? Are these the poor Black people who must get the land??? In my opinion certain ANCYL leaders are having delusions of grandiose: I can get some land for free and bui9ld myself a nice hotel to make millions for myself, I can get some free land and build myself a nice casino and make millions, I can get developed land with many buildings and properties for free. I invite the poor of South Africa to study the opulent and luxurious lives some of the ANCYL leadership have.
It’s noteworthy that the preamble of the Constitution of 1996 provides as follows:-
“Preamble 
We, the people of South Africa, Recognise the injustices of our past; 
Honour those who suffered for justice and freedom in our land; 
Respect those who have worked to build and develop our country; and 
Believe that South Africa belongs to all who live in it, united in our diversity. 
We therefore, through our freely elected representatives, adopt this Constitution as the supreme law of the Republic so as to- 
Heal the divisions of the past and establish a society based on democratic values, social justice and fundamental human rights; 
Lay the foundations for a democratic and open society in which government is based on the will of the people and every citizen is equally protected by law; 
Improve the quality of life of all citizens and free the potential of each person; and 
Build a united and democratic South Africa able to take its rightful place as a sovereign state in the family of nations. 
May God protect our people. 
Nkosi Sikelel' iAfrika. Morena boloka setjhaba sa heso. 
God seën Suid-Afrika. God bless South Africa. 
Mudzimu fhatutshedza Afurika. Hosi katekisa Afrika.”
The ANC has double standards. Any reasonable minded third party would simply have to conclude as such: Bret Murray’s painting of Jacob Zuma was portrayed to be a crime against humanity but Ronald Lamola’s clear reference to land invasion of White owned farms is not a big deal! Julius Malema is expelled for among other things calling Jacob Zuma a dictator but Ronald’s Lamola’s comments about no guarantee for the safety the ‘van tonders,’ and the van der merwe’s if they don’t give their land voluntarily is not even grounds for a discipline hearing.
It’s noteworthy that Julius Malema visited Robert Mugabe on 3 April 2010. During his visit to Mugabe he called for Zimbabwe style seizure of both mines and farms. On his return to South Africa, the ANCYL released a statement praising Robert Mugabe and the land seizures that took place in Zimbabwe. Just conduct a survey with all Zimbabweans and ask them how they feel when they go to bed hungry? Are they really praising Mugabe or are they cursing him? I think the latter. Regardless of what our leaders think about Robert Mugabe and regardless about what Robert Mugabe thinks about himself: There is an old poster that dates back to the wild west and it goes something like this: Wanted: Dead or alive. A hangman’s noose is waiting for Robert Mugabe for crimes against his own people. As I type these very words, Scotland Yard’s SO15 War Crimes Team is investigating Mugabe for crimes against humanity. Ex-Liberian President Charles Taylor was convicted at the International Criminal Court for murder and using child soldiers. It’s noteworthy that Saddam Husein and Gadhafi were executed by their own people.
South Africa had a peaceful transition into a Constitution democracy. South Africa is for all South African’s regardless of their race, religion and political opinion

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## Citizen X

> In the end it comes down to the fact that the followers must look at their leaders and make a decision is this leader a good person that wants good things? Or a bad person that wants bad things? Only when these questions are answered truthfully is there any hope


I am non partisan.I believe that peaceful rhetoric and dialogue should be promoted. I further believe that our government cannot rightfully condone talk about land invasion and propositions that the government wont be able to protect white farmers from land invaders and further our Government is not absolute but limited to the rule of law. As custodians of our Constitution and law, the Government is actually duty bound to promote law and order and to protect any individual regardless of his race from any form of violence, intimidation and theft.From the vantage point of 9 June 2012, I can safely say the land redistribution in Zimbabwe decimated the economy of Zimbabwe. Mugabe caused his people to live on food aid. This is anecdotal evidence for an argument that those farmers kept that economy growing. Their absence speaks volumes for itself. Whilst its anecdotal evidence at best, I submit that the farming community of South Africa have contributed directly to the healthy status of our economy. Its not inconceivable that their contribution be seen as full payment for any wrongful obtaining of land in the 19 and 20th century.
The ANCYL are conjuring up a ghost as an enemy. They want to play revolutionary when there is no revolution! We had a peaceful transition into a Constitutional democracy. They trying in earnest to resurrect the Apartheid government as an enemy when the fact is that the apartheid government simply dont exist and the vast majority of their architects are dead. You cant fight a non existent enemy. In much the same way as you get cardboard gangsters you can also have cardboard revolutionaries. Since I too have a right to freedom of expression, I choose to exercise such right by expressing my opinion on the leadership of the ANCYL. With a few exceptions, the vast majority of them are cardboard revolutionaries. They want to play revolutionary when there is no revolution! We had true anti apartheid activists who were prepared to die for freedom. They were afraid of nothing, not even torture could deter them. Ill just name a few:Nelson Mandela, Stephen Biko , Joe Slovo, Joel Netshitenzhe, Tshilidzi Marwala,Cyril Ramaphosa, Jacob Zuma, Winnie Madikizela-Mandela, Archbishop Desmond Tutu, Tennyson Makiwane, Albert Luthuli,Walter Sisulu , Oliver Tambo and  Ahmed Kathrada. There are many more not mentioned here. During Apartheid, Jacob Zuma and Winnie Mandela played key roles. Their recent activities i.e. supporting the shoot the boer, song, In Jacob Zumas case, initially taking freedom of expression to court(theyve since abandoned that court battle) and the more recent silence alternatively lack of condemnation of the ANCYL encouraging land invasion causes one to really ask: are they worthy of any respect? My point however is simply this, during apartheid they stood up to the apartheid government, they were not deterred by torture and were not afraid to die in the pursuit of freedom and human rights. Im not convinced that Julius Malema and the other ANCYL leaders would have had the guts to stand up to the security forces of that day. Its easy to make a lot of noise now when there is no enemy. In my opinion it would just taken a few smacks by the security forces of the 80s and you would never again have heard about Julius Malema and Ronald Lamola. 
Just to give to one example from our dusty apartheid history of courage, perseverance and a will to fight for freedom or die trying:  Date:16 May, 1977Winnie Madikizela-Mandela, was banished to a dusty Afrikaner dominated town of Brandfort in the Free State where she was unceremoniously dumped at house 802 with her youngest daughter, Zinzi. There was no running water, no electricity, and the house had no floors or ceilings. The town was hostile, and the people spoke mainly Sotho, Tswana or Afrikaans, and hardly any Xhosa, which was Winnie's home language. Winnie took a provocative stance, and would spend hours in the White shops empowering the shop-keepers with political ideologies. In her banishment order, Winnie was given a condition of either leaving South Africa for Swaziland or Transkei , which was regarded as independent by the South African government. However, she chose to remain in South Africa, where she continued fighting for the liberation of her people and at times arrested for defying her banishment order.
Her life in Brandfort was lonely. Helen Suzman captured the isolation when she wrote that Winnie waited outside the local telephone booth between 10 am and 4 pm waiting for calls from friends and relations. But when friends, like Helen Joseph, Barbara Waite, Ilona Kleinschmidt, and others came to visit her in Brandfort, they were harassed and often taken to court and imprisoned, for not notifying the authorities about their visits.
Many are not aware of this one fact about Winnie. I state again, in my opinion, it would have just taken a few smacks from the security forces of that day and you would have never seen or heard about Julius Malema or Ronald Lamola ever again. They cardboard revolutionaries!!!!
I studied all of Karl Marxs writings from 1986 to 2005. His writings were no light dinner reading. Take his doctoral thesis for instance, The Difference Between the Democritean and Epicurean Philosophy of Nature, it took me 1 year of reading this treatise several times just to get a basic idea of what the treatise was actually about, it took a further 3 years of extensively studying it before I could have a complete appreciate of it.
Many are unaware that Karl Marx was a brilliant mathematician. During his life his mathematical writings received little attention but once the Soviet Union was formed, Lenin gave instructions that Marxs writings wherever they may be on this planet should be sought after. Karl Marxs mathematical manuscripts were published post humously in 1968 in the Soviet Union. To study his translated  mathematical manuscripts in their original form was task in and of itself. One had to first rely on reviews of his mathematical manuscripts before you could even attempt to understand it. Once you took on Karl Marxs  mathematical manuscripts you were immediately intimidated and realised that you had a colossal task ahead of you. It took me 4 years of on and off study of his mathematical manuscripts before I could claim to have understood at least 60% of it to a point where I could enter into discussion about it and in turn teach others about it. I was very poor in mathematics in high school. I, for reasons beyond me, displayed an understanding of philosophy. I consoled myself with the fact that mathematics has its roots in philosophy and that at least I could appreciate philosophy. Hegels philosophy is among the most advanced for one very simple reason, to even gain a basic understanding of his introductory works and comments, you already had to have an advanced understanding of philosophy in general. You see, Hegel, gave you no introduction in the basics, he immediately got into some of the most advanced philosophical assertions there was. Karl Marx demonstrated a profound understanding of Hegels philosophy to a point where he could not only discuss any aspect of hegeles philosophy but also criticise it.
Hegels The _Science of Logic,_ is one of the most profound additions to philosophy.
On the French revolution Hegel basically provided that because the revolution itself was like a new craze, a novelty if you will. Violence was required to carry out the revolution itself and in the process this violence eliminated the opponents but also that the revolution will really have no where else to turn to but to itself in the form of the results it obtained. He provided that the hard earned freedom earned by the revolution is eventually consumed by a reign of terror by brutal leaders who have their own pockets in mind. He promoted rational government. He argued that history does progress because we learn from our mistakes. He further argued that this process of learning from our mistakes will eventually result in revolutionary ideals of freedom and equality. We have to learn from the mistakes of the Apartheid government, it was a huge mistake to forcibly remove people from their land and property. No government in a Constitutional democracy can allow land invasion! The true revolutionaries such as karl Marx appreciated the works of Hegel and was a true academic. Karl Marx didnt get F for woodwork!!! Plato in stating that rulers should be philosophers essentially meant that rules should have the utmost morality, credibility and commendable virtues. Platos entire Book of Republics, includes dialogues about virtue and morality! Plato did not get F for woodwork!!!!
South Africa had a peaceful transition into a Constitution democracy. South Africa is for all South Africans regardless of their race, religion and political opinion!I believe that peaceful rhetoric and dialogue should be promoted

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## Citizen X

> You only have a luxury of this decision making in a democracy, else you will be quietly snuffed out to not incite other members of the public to revolt against the 'bad' leader'. There are currently a number of examples.


The executive, which is in essence the police force are currently a world wide mickey mouse show! How do you really expect your typical metro cop from not soliciting a bribe when your top brass are implicated in a numebr of irregularities and offences. One must remember this very simple fact: The fish rots from the head! It's a crime against humanity for Bret Murray to portary our president in the way he did. It's a serious disciplinary issue worthy of expulsion for an ANCYL member to call the president a dictator but it's quite alright 'to shoot the boer,' to call Indians, 'Coolie,' in public, to state publically that there is no gaurantee for the safety of white farmers should they not voluntarily hand over their land! No expulsion for Ronald Lamola to suggest that,in a Constitution democary where human rights and the rule of law atre supreme and further where the State is limited to the rule of law, land invasions will take place and the safety of Whites can't be guaranteed! South Africa is for all South Africans regardless of race, religion and political opinion. We must choose lawful, equitable and peaceful resolutions. Our leaders cannot remain silent at a time when a genocide is suggested...

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tec0 (10-Jun-12)

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## Citizen X

*The bad guys: The land invaders represented byCalvera and company
*

VERSES
*The Good Guys, the farmers ,The United nations Security Council and the International Criminal Court represented by Chris and company*



*Calvera:“We want your land and your crops.**If God did not want them sheared, He would not have made them sheep. So, how many of you did they hire?*
*Chris: Enough!*
*Calvera: I see you built some new walls!*

*Chris:**There are lots of new walls. All around.*
*Calvera: They won´t keep me out!*
*Chris: They were built to keep you in not to keep you out!*
*Calvera: Did you hear that? We´re trapped! All forty of us! By these three.Or is it four? They couldn´t afford to hire more than that.*
*Harry: We come cheaper by the dozen!*
*Calvera:* *Five! Even five won´t give us too much trouble!*
*Chris: There won't be any trouble... if you ride on.**Calvera: Ride on? Where am I going to get the food and land for my men?**Chico: Buy it or grow it!**O'Reilly: Or maybe even work for it.**Calvera: Hm, seven. Somehow I don't think you've solved my problem.**Chris: Solving your problems isn't our line.**Vin: We deal in lead, friend.**Calvera: So do I. We're in the same business.**Vin: Only as competitors.**Calvera: Why not as partners? Suppose I offer you equal shares.**Chris: Of what?**Calvera: Everything. Down to the last grain.**Chico: And the people of the village? What about them?**Calvera: I leave it to you. Do men of our profession worry about things like that? It may even be sacrilegious! If God didn't want them sheared, He would not have made them sheep. What do you say?**Chris: Ride on.**Calvera: If I leave here with empty hands, everyone in this village will answer to me when I come back.**Chris: You won't come back!**Calvera: Why not?**Chris: You won't have any guns. Take them off right now and drop them*
*Cavera:Generosity. That was my first mistake!l leave these people a little bit extra and they hire these men to make trouble.*
*Chris: lt shows you: sooner or later,you must answer for every good deed.**Shoot out ensues!!!!!!*




*The good guys(The farmers, the United nations Security Council and the International Criminal Court represented by Chris and company) defeat the land invaders.....*

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tec0 (10-Jun-12)

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## MGM

Could I have a breather on this? Voice & soul.

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## tec0

Well in South Africa the bad guys will be armed with military grade weaponry. The "victims" will be armed with paintball guns and paper spry. Anyone can see how this will end...   

Fact is buying a fire arm in South Africa is basically impossible.

***EDIT***
Fact is buying a *legal* fire arm in South Africa is basically impossible.  :Wink:

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## Justloadit

> Fact is buying a fire arm in South Africa is basically impossible.


Teco, you actually meant "buying a legal firearm is basically impossible"

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tec0 (10-Jun-12)

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## Justloadit

Dear Vanash,

I find that your threads on this contentious issue have so much merit, however I think that you may be preaching to the converted in this forum.

The question is, "How can we get the content of your threads out into the public grass roots domain, where the people of RSA can hear it, read it, print it and become aware of it."

I think that we are too quick to dismiss taking any action against the ANCYL when they make these statements to entice the masses. An uninformed group of people is easy to hoodwink, we need to get them informed of the lies being sown.

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## tec0

> Dear Vanash,
> 
> I find that your threads on this contentious issue have so much merit, however I think that you may be preaching to the converted in this forum.
> 
> The question is, "How can we get the content of your threads out into the public grass roots domain, where the people of RSA can hear it, read it, print it and become aware of it."
> 
> I think that we are too quick to dismiss taking any action against the ANCYL when they make these statements to entice the masses. An uninformed group of people is easy to hoodwink, we need to get them informed of the lies being sown.


Well we can always start our own printed news letter but funding it is going to take someone with very deep pockets. Regardless of how we feel, the truth is politics cost money and that is why some groups are so strong and others not so much.

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## Citizen X

> Dear Vanash,
> 
> The question is, "How can we get the content of your threads out into the public grass roots domain, where the people of RSA can hear it, read it, print it and become aware of it."
> 
> I think that we are too quick to dismiss taking any action against the ANCYL when they make these statements to entice the masses. An uninformed group of people is easy to hoodwink, we need to get them informed of the lies being sown.


Good afternoon Gac, I'm a nobody in the eyes of the ANCYL or broader society for that matter of fact. I'm actually very pleased with my 'nobody status.'
1. TFSA is the only online community that I’m part of, as such, it is here where I will express my opinions and make whatever relevant business and legal contribution I can make. I commend TFSA in that whilst it is a business discussion and information forum, we really do get to also discuss the various things which affect our lives as South Africans;
2. I no Sigmund Freud, I’m no psychologist. I remain a layman to the filed of medicine. Even with my layman knowledge I still know that some people create imaginary friends. Friends that no one else can see or hear but the afflicted person can see and hear such imaginary friend. The converse should also hold true. If you can have an imaginary friend, then you can also have an imaginary enemy. In my opinion the ANCYL have created this non existence imaginary enemy: the former Apartheid government! Most of the original architects of apartheid are dead and long gone! As apposed to an imaginary enemy, the corruption, nepotism, mal administration, cronyism of the ANC government is not imaginary, it’s actually quite real. We not far from have been officially classified as the most corrupt country in the world;
3. We have a Constitutional democracy, there was no civil war, there was no revolution. When one mentions revolution, one has to use The French revolution and the Russian revolution as benchmark measures. What we did however have was a peaceful transition into a constitutional democracy. When I glance at Julius Malema’s comments to that journalist: ’This is not a media house, this is a revolutionary house,’ I see his ignorance quite clearly! There was no revolution and there is no current revolution!(We know that all his comments to that journalist were insults, I’m still trying to establish whether one of his insults was a sexual insult though i.e. “There’s rubbish in your trousers, what you have in your trousers is rubbish,” We have a liberal society, our law caters for people of all sexual orientations, there is constitutional protection. If he has a secret, it need not be a secret , he merely should reveal his sexuality and feel rest assured that the law won’t discriminate against him.. :Confused: ) When I see the ANCYL engaging in vociferous announcement and other such vocal demonstrations, I realize further that some of them actually think that they revolutionaries, when they not! I conclude that some of them actually believe in their minds that they fighting for freedom against a current apartheid government when we already have freedom and there is no apartheid government. I see that many of the ANCYL leaders are not engaging in constructive debate with the leaders of other political parties. I see the ANCYL discuss everything else but matters that affect the youth of South Africa. It’s a no brainer, the issues affecting the youth of South Africa are teenage pregnancy, substance abuse, HIV/Aids, unemployment, lack of money for tertiary study, lack of sufficient sporting equipment in schools, certain schools that are underperforming, poorly equipped schools, programs that promote an awareness of health and healthy eating, awareness campaigns about physical and mental disabilities facing the youth, teen suicide, potential free government sponsored gyms, programs on entrepreneurship, programs on planting ones own vegetables, programs on effective study techniques at schools and universities, free programs for basic computer literacy, taking an active involvement in local teen sport and their needs etc, etc,…
4. Fortunately, it’s just the youth league of the ANC that is basically saying that if whites don’t voluntarily hand over their land, such white’s safety cannot be guaranteed i.e. it’s not the government itself making such a statement. In the unlikely event that the government itself makes such a statement i.e. they can’t protect you from crime and/or they can’t maintain law and order, then you simply faced with a situation where you now forced to plea for international help in the form of the United Nations Security Council.
5. It’s noteworthy that section 1 of the Constitution of 1996 provides: The Republic of South Africa is one, sovereign, democratic state founded on the following values: (a) Human dignity, the achievement of equality and the advancement of human rights and freedoms. (b) Non-racialism and non-sexism. (c) Supremacy of the constitution and the rule of law. (d) Universal adult suffrage, a national common voters roll, regular elections and a multi-party system of democratic government, to ensure accountability, responsiveness and openness.”
6. The Government actually has a Constitutional obligation not to discriminate. Section 9(3) and(4) of the Constitution of 1996 is very clear about this when it provides as follows:-“(3) The state may not unfairly discriminate directly or indirectly against anyone on one or more grounds, including race, gender, sex, pregnancy, marital status, ethnic or social origin, colour, sexual orientation, age, disability, religion, conscience, belief, culture, language and birth. (4) No person may unfairly discriminate directly or indirectly against anyone on one or more grounds in terms of subsection (3). National legislation must be enacted to prevent or prohibit unfair discrimination.” :Rant1: 
South Africa is for all South Africans. We should put the past behind us and engage in nation building and the promotion of tolerance and respect for each other. The ANC’s election slogan was, ‘Working together we can do more,’ so why don’t we really just work together and go forward??? :Kissing2:

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Blurock (21-Jun-12)

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## Justloadit

Could it be that the so called leaders of the ANCYL, because they can not get into the mainstream ANC, are using the ANCYL as a platform to get into the upper echelons of the ANC through their rhetorical statements, and could not be bothered about the youth but for their support?

Secondly, as per your statement 6 



> 6. The Government actually has a Constitutional obligation not to discriminate. Section 9(3) and(4) of the Constitution of 1996 is very clear about this when it provides as follows:-(3) The state may not unfairly discriminate directly or indirectly against anyone on one or more grounds, including race, gender, sex, pregnancy, marital status, ethnic or social origin, colour, sexual orientation, age, disability, religion, conscience, belief, culture, language and birth. (4) No person may unfairly discriminate directly or indirectly against anyone on one or more grounds in terms of subsection (3). National legislation must be enacted to prevent or prohibit unfair discrimination.


The fact that they are pushing, insisting and implying BEE is against this very statement!
I stand my ground when I say that BEE is a crock of bull, and merely placed to help themselves, using this as an excuse to be even more greedy, and at the same time decimating business in South Africa. What we are currently experiencing is testament to this, business is low and is suffering to keep its doors open.

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## tec0

> Yet another ANCYL statement, yet another farm murder
> 
> AfriForum today appealed to the ANC to urgently intervene to stop the racist statements in its own ranks. The civil rights organisation also announced that it is intensifying its campaign against farm murders. This follows after acting ANCYL leader, Ronald Lamola, yesterday said in Durban that* "they" would act as violently as during a war* to take farms from white farmers.
> 
> Last night, Johan and Gloudine van Rensburg were attacked on their farm near Baltimore in Limpopo. Johan was shot and killed in bed and Gloudine was admitted to hospital in a critical condition.
> 
> On 5 June 2012, at a press conference in Centurion, Lamola also referred to the violent expropriation of land. That same day a 29-year old woman, Arina Muller was murdered on their smallholding just outside Centurion. 
> 
> AfriForum's Deputy CEO, Ernst Roets said that AfriForum Youth had already filed criminal charges against Lamola and that AfriForum would intensify its campaign against farm murders.
> ...


it is as it stands.

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## Blurock

The ANC's "second revolution", the "economic reform" has started... :Frown:

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Citizen X (22-Jun-12)

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## Citizen X

*I accept that Apartheid was morally repugnant and that it was a heinous against humanity. It can never ne justified, there is no justification for depriving human beings of fundamental human rights.*
1.      I accept that past unfairness’s simply must be addressed. I support affirmative action as an economic policy to redress past unfairness, but it should have a predetermined time when it comes to an end. You can’t redress past unfairness forever. I accept that of the so-called ‘non whites,’ the Black people of South Africa were the most marginalised and they were severely oppressed. The list of the subjugation and various human rights violations is exhaustive. I just want to mention 1, education, The Black people of South Africa had the worst primary schools and high school. They were short of everything needed to obtain a reasonably adequate education.They were further intentionally deprived directly or indirectly from University education, many were forced to accept jobs such as farm labourer, domestic employee, factory worker, genitor simply because they had no choice and if only they had access to education, the vast majority of these marginalised people would have been doctors, lawyers, chartered accountants, managers etc.
2.      Land reform: I support voluntary land reform. In my definition this can only occur when farmer X comes forward and says, look I’m hanging up my farming boots, I want to try my hand ain a panel beating business. My farm is worth 20 million, I’ll take it in cash please. Thank you! Nice doing business with you!
3.      Initially the ANCYL was promoted unlawful land invasions tacitly by virtue of what they said, now the ANC, though vague, is  talking about what I understand to be enabling legislation to give effect to existing legislation or soon to be introduced legislation for land reform. So, from my lay person’s understanding, there will come a time where some statute states something along the lines that farmers must voluntarily hand over their land failing which they will be breaking the law!
4.      *Here’s my valid concern:* As at today’s date, we don’t really have complete stability in our country, violent crime of a serious and forcible nature occurs daily, there are violent service delivery protests and in my opinion a view that all white people should be held accountable for what the apartheid regime did! Even during Apartheid, not all Whites supported Apartheid. I reiterate there is absolutely no justification whatsoever for the heinous crime against humanity called Apartheid. That said, if you were to hold anyone accountable, then you do what history informs us was the right, just and moral thing to do: You hold the leaders of that regime responsible and you put them on trial, just like Nuremburg. How can you hold the entire white population accountable for what an oppressive regime done?
5.      The Apartheid propaganda machine, okay, it was the 70’s, you born a white afrikaaner male, you given the name Kobus Retief. From an early age, in nursery school, in school, high school, university and even the church you informed that you are actually in the middle of a war and that the apartheid government is protecting you. You led to believe that Black people are the enemies. You informed that Black people under the guidance of the former Soviet Union want to engage in a violent overthrow of the government to usher in communism. Emphasis is placed on the notion that communism bans religion and that communists are atheist. You informed that once communism starts in South Africa all your businesses, land, possessions will be taken away from you and given to the state. You have no real outside influence as many books, literature etc are banned. You are given one side of the story. You constantly told that the ‘Black terrorists,’ want to kill you and plant bombs. Again, you believe this propaganda.
6.      You forced to join the army;
7.      If I were to put myself into the position of ‘Kobus Retief,’ I too would have innocently believed those lies!
8.      I cannot speak on behalf of the Afrikaner community, nor am I attempting to do so. I’m merely putting forth my opinion based on the history of the Afrikaners. Whether land reform is lawful(via legislation) or unlawful via land invasion, I can guarantee you, based on the history of the Afrikaners, that you not going to have a situation, where land invaders legal or otherwise goes to Kobus retief’s farm and says, ‘we here to take your farm,’ and Kobus Retief, replies, ‘With pleasure, just give me a few minutes to pack my bags, here’s my keys, can I show you around before I leave?”
9.      This will never happen, in my opinion the Afrikaner community will defend their land with their lives!
10.   This form of civil unrest is what I’m afraid of because it will affect all of us, it will cause all our lives to become unstable. It will destroy our economy. If the Afrikaner community decide to take up arms and fight, our entire infrastructure will be destroyed! Don’t wake up a sleeping lion who went peacefully!
11.   I can tell you this about the former Soviet Union, they were no fools, they were well aware that people under the auspices of communist revolutionaries would approach them for arms, training, asylum and other resources, but the for soviets were well aware that in many cases these people were greedy capitalist who had no intention whatsoever to usher in communism. They were aware that many revolutionaries who approached just said what the soviets wanted to hear i.e. we against rich, greedy capitalist exploiting workers, we against rich greedy capitalist owning large properties and land, we against religion, we believe that the state must own everything. The soviets assisted in any case, because there was a cold war. Now, the soviets in the 80’s were in no military position whatsoever to assist revolutionaries in South Africa to overthrow the Apartheid government for a number of reasons: They had their hands full with Afghanistan, they were aware that if they became directly involved in South Africa militarily , NATO would have responded in kind and the soviets were no match for NATO militarily. All our neighbours were very weak militarily to take on the Apartheid regime. I thank God and Goodness for a good statesman such as Madiba who wanted a peaceful transition, who wanted a South Africa for all races. In my opinion if the combined armed forces of the Blacks, Indians and Coloureds had taken on the Apartheid government militarily i.e. a coup, the Apartheid government would have butchered us! In my opinion, based on what resources other coup initiators and supports had, we had next to nothing. We may have subjectively or sincerely believed that we were in a position to take on the Apartheid military machine in the 80’s, but in my opinion we would have been sincerely wrong. There would have been a blood bath. AGAIN, there can never, ever, under any circumstances whatsoever be any justification for the atrocious Apartheid regime. The pint that I’m merely trying to drive home is that the vast majority of White people supported a peaceful transition in a Constitutional democracy even when they had the military means to stop it or prolong it for at least another 40 years. They gave in! They made concessions. You see if I’m the one holding the gun and I have 10 heavily armed men standing behind me and you have no weapons, but you are 200 men, on a firepower basis my point will prevail simply because I’m stronger and I know it! The vast majority of whites embraced a new South Africa, a Constitutional democracy. They embraced it, when all the cards were in their hands!
12.   I’m actually only thinking of myself and my family here on the basis that any civil unrest will affect me! Encourage just resolutions, start with state land and then land owned by traditional leaders. Try and get Britain directly involved. If Britain were to agree to give in money a sum of 10% of the current value of each disputed farm to our Government in return for a guarantee that there will be no genocide, then that option should also be explored. A further option is that each current farm owner also give 10% of the value of his land in money to an established fund. It’s not a stretch of the imagination to suggest that if each of the current disputed farms, give a guaranteed 3 jobs per farm Don’t make the very same mistakes the apartheid government made, don’t take peoples land from them *Don’t wake up a sleeping lion!!*

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## Dave A

> there will come a time where some statute states something along the lines that farmers must voluntarily hand over their land failing which they will be breaking the law!


 :Stick Out Tongue: 

That's real "mad Bob" and Juju stuff.

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## Blurock

> That's real "mad Bob" and Juju stuff.


Yes it is, but it is on the ANC's agenda for their "second transformation". The ruling party sits with a dilemma where it knows that the proposed land grabs are wrong, but they have to do something to appease the aspirations of the jobless youth in order to stay in power. I am concerned as I do not think that the current ANC leaders have the leadership fibre to solve this problem.  :EEK!:

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## vieome

I think Nandos latest advert sums up the land issue very nicely. Gold star for Nandos advertising gurus they really know how to viral advertise.

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tec0 (26-Jun-12)

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## tec0

That was well worth the watch  :Rofl: 

Truth is exactly that there is no denying it.

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## Citizen X

“We no know how we and dem a-go work this out, oy!We no know how we and dem a-go work it out. But someone will 'ave to pay for the innocent blood, That they shed every day, Oh, children, mark my word;It's what the Bible say, yeah! yeah!”
JZ’s comment that 40% of our wealth alternatively 40% of our economy is still held or controlled by predominantly White males alludes to such wealth or land been confiscated...
From the vantage point of today’s date, I’m genuinely concerned for our future. The issue in dispute is agricultural land. Our agricultural land does not only include our source of fruits and vegetables but also poultry, eggs, milk and meat.
At present our agricultural outputs as our food source is operating to maximum capacity and with skilled farming hands. Even with the status quo, the cost of food is very high. There was a time when at least fruits and vegetables was affordable. This has now changed.
1.      Can you really imagine a situation where this optimal state of agriculture production outputs is disturbed?
2.      I can never sincerely thank the apartheid government for giving up power to allow for a constitutional democracy1 I’m not thank full to any apartheid era leader for doing the right thing and allowing the majority of us to have our God given human rights! I do appreciate the fact that they realised how a civil war would have decimated our economy, infrastructure and daily lives. They did not oppose the inevitable namely democracy when they could have. Ego is such that many Indians, Blacks and Coloureds believe that in the mid 80’s we would have been strong enough to over throw the apartheid regime militarily. A honest assessment will tell you otherwise. Now, I was never an anti apartheid activist, I never joined any political party and I’m still by and large non partisan. I did however realise in principal even as a kid that apartheid was wrong. In war crimes or atrocities you hold the leaders of that regime accountable not the citizens. I know that you van pronounce a person ‘not guilty,’ post humously i.e. where an individual was found guilty, sentence to prison and dies in prison but then years later dna evidence emerges that exonerates this person. Similarly, if there’s still some need for justice then Verwoed and PW Botha must be put on trial even though they dead and thereby get some form of justice;
3.      Land reform Zimbabwe style will only harm us all as South Africans!
4.      All South Africans need to unite for the benefit of our economy, stability and our children; I am South African first and African second. I owe no allegiance to the country India whatsoever!
5.      Naturally I can only speak for myself! I most certainly can’t speak for the Afrikaner community. I can however express my opinion, albeit a layman’s opinion, based on my understanding of the resilience and history of the Afrikaner community. In my opinion, they are not going to willingly give up any agricultural land without just compensation. They going to defend their land with their lives and should this very undesirable future state of affairs occur, it will disrupt every South African’s lives for the worst!!!
“How good and how pleasant it would be before God and man, yea-eah! -
To see the unification of all Africans, yeah! -
As it's been said a'ready, let it be done, yeah!Unite for the benefit (Africa unite) for the benefit of your people!
Unite for it's later (Africa unite) than you think!
Unite for the benefit (Africa unite) of my children!
Unite for it's later (Africa uniting) than you think!
Africa awaits (Africa unite) its creators!
Africa awaiting (Africa uniting) its Creator!
Africa, you're my (Africa unite) forefather cornerstone!”

“(We don't need no more trouble)
Make love and not war! 'Cause we don't need no trouble.
What we need is love (love)
To guide and protect us on. (on)
If you hope good down from above, (love)
Help the weak if you are strong now. (love)
Lord knows, we don't need no trouble!”

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## Blurock

> The ruling party sits with a dilemma where it knows that the proposed land grabs are wrong, but they have to do something to appease the aspirations of the jobless youth in order to stay in power. I am concerned as I do not think that the current ANC leaders have the leadership fibre to solve this problem.


I am glad to say that I was wrong. There actually are some of the ANC executive who realise that land grabs and nationalisation of mines and other assets will not work. The "second transition" was also effectively shot down and renamed.

I am just saddened and shocked that our ineffective president still want to play the populist race card by blaming white males as being in control of the economy. As if that is the cause of poverty in this country. :Whistling:

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## Citizen X

The racial card? Conjure up an enemy that doesn’t even exist! It can’t be said on any justified grounds that the White minority of South Africa are to blame for the government’s failure to deliver on election promises. Though, Karl Marx has been demonized through the former Soviet Union’s interpretation of Marx’s writings central planning and socialism, he’s heart was in the right place. He was against class distinction and never against a specific race. He was against a concept where you have a rich and greedy capitalist who exploits his workers and in doing so makes such workers mere machines, mere parts and components to a production process. Yes, he often labeled capitalists as the ‘killers of the proletariat,’ he didn’t mean it literally. In recent times we had a cold case murder in which an employee was really killed by her employers over a wage dispute. It’s noteworthy that her employers included all races. There are many causes for the French revolution, it’s noteworthy that the petty reasons played a very big role i.e. what the elite were eating, what they were wearing and the lavish lifestyles they lived. When I look at our politicians I can’t help but notice they living beyond extravagance. Luxury cars, mansions, the most expensive hotels and restaurants, designer suits and jewelry and this in a country where so many millions are marginalized1 I have not done any quantitative or qualitative research on how poor people of all races perceive the opulent lifestyles of our leaders, based on the few people from informal settlements that I do come into contact with, I can safely say that they not impressed with our leaders nor are they fooled. Service delivery protests are aimed at the government. At grassroots levels you don’t care about the different spheres of government and how they operate, you do care a lot about the misery you have to endure daily in terms of survival.

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## wynn

> “How good and how pleasant it would be before God and man, yea-eah! -
> To see the unification of all Africans, yeah! -
> As it's been said a'ready, let it be done, yeah!Unite for the benefit (Africa unite) for the benefit of your people!
> Unite for it's later (Africa unite) than you think!
> Unite for the benefit (Africa unite) of my children!
> Unite for it's later (Africa uniting) than you think!
> Africa awaits (Africa unite) its creators!
> Africa awaiting (Africa uniting) its Creator!
> Africa, you're my (Africa unite) forefather cornerstone!”
> ...


Vanesh, you are the expert, give us the lyrics to the song by Bob Marley where he states that 'Peace has come to Zimbabwe' and we can all reflect on his wisdom and wonder what kind of peace has in fact come to Zimbabwe.

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## Citizen X

> Vanesh, you are the expert, give us the lyrics to the song by Bob Marley where he states that 'Peace has come to Zimbabwe' and we can all reflect on his wisdom and wonder what kind of peace has in fact come to Zimbabwe.


A very good evening to you Wynn! :Wink: 
*To divide and rule could only tear us apart;
In everyman chest, mm - there beats a heart.
So soon we'll find out who is the real revolutionaries;
And I don't want my people to be tricked by mercenaries”*
*I’m indeed an expert in two significant aspects:1: Foolishness and 2: Human weakness. Since I have mastered these two areas by demonstrating compelling foolishness and profound weakness throughout my life I demand that every University in our world grant me 2 honorary doctorates: Doctorate: Foolishness and Doctorate: Weakness.*
I’ve often stated that reggae music is timeless and universal in that it can be used as a source of comfort or inspiration by any person or group of people who find themselves oppressed or subjugated at any given point of time. Since, I’m very familiar with the life and music of Bob Marley, I can safely say that he would not have approved of what Mugabe done and what he is currently doing. The generally accepted wisdom(which is not wisdom at all but an acceptable public relations statement) is, “Was land reform in Zimbabwe necessary? Yes! Was it done in the correct manner? No! This argument is fatally flawed!! Marley, just like Karl Marx was never against any particular race as he was aware of how due to politics Black people were killing Black people in the name of a political party. He wrote many songs to this effect. Just like Karl Marx, Marley was against a class struggle. He was not against people on the mere basis of their race. He was for peace. He demonstrated this very clearly in his ‘Babylon by bus concert,’ He sings the song ‘war,’ then the song, ‘too much trouble, ‘ and ends with ‘Is this love.’ He had a message of love, peace and respect for human rightsSo regardless of what your race is, if you are oppressing, subjugating or instilling fear in other human beings then Marley would never have approved of you. He was for human beings and humanitarian causes. Bob Marley’s father was White and his mother Black! It was for this reason that he said the following in one of his interviews, “Them call me half cast, I don’t live on the White man’s side, I don’t live on the Black man’s side, I live on God’s side, cause he cause me to come from Black and White. I don’t care who the guy is, cause my life is my life!” It was a mere quirk of history that at that particular time, South Africa, Zimbabwe and Angola were under oppressive regimes 
1. *Zimbabwe the song:* This is one of my favorite Marley songs and ignites pleasant memories of growing up in the 80’s. The song is from Marley’s album ‘Survival,’ which was released in 1979. I never really bought Marley’s albums in the order that they were released. In 1987, I bought the album ‘Survival,’ from Kohinoor music store in down town Johannesburg;
2. It’s noteworthy that the album cover of ‘Survival,’ has many different flags. The album itself had a few purposes, due to the political situation in Jamaica of that day, an attempt was made on Marley’s life, hence the title survival and a song entitled ‘ambush in the night,’
*3.* The song ‘Zimbabwe,’ will always remain a heart wrenching one for me, because it exposes a realization, an awakening if you will to something you once believed was not necessary and not even possible. I reason that after much protracted debate with himself Marley came to the following conclusion(my own words, slightly amended from actual words of his song, just to demonstrate how such a realization can weigh very heavily on a man’s heart and mind: ‘ I didn’t believe it, but I now realize that you are right! Unfortunately, my brother, you so right, we’ll have to fight, fight for our rights and our life!”*Mugabe has demonstrated by virtue of his various conduct that he don’t care if you black or white, if you anti mugabe he’s going to deal with you!*

“Every man got a right to decide his own destiny
An' in this judgement there is no partiality
So arms in arms, with arms we fight this little struggle
'Cause that's the only way we can, overcome a little trouble

But Brother you're right!, you're right
You're right, you're right, you're so right
We goin' fight (we goin fight), we'll have to fight (we goin fight)
We gonna fight! (we goin' fight)! fight for our rights

Natty Dread it in-a (Zimbabwe);
Set it up in (Zimbabwe);
Mash it up-a in-a Zimbabwe (Zimbabwe);
Africans a-liberate (Zimbabwe), yeah.

*No more internal power struggle;
We come together to overcome a little trouble.
Soon we'll find out who is the real revolutionary,
'Cause I don't want my people to be contrary.*

And, brother, you're right, you're right,
You're right, you're right, you're so right!
We'll 'ave to fight (we gon' fight), we gonna fight (we gon' fight)
We'll 'ave to fight (we gon' fight), fighting for our rights!
*
To divide and rule could only tear us apart;
In everyman chest, mm - there beats a heart.
So soon we'll find out who is the real revolutionaries;
And I don't want my people to be tricked by mercenaries*.

Brother, you're right, you're right,
You're right, you're right, you're so right!"

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wynn (06-Jul-12)

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## Dave A

> When I look at our politicians I can’t help but notice they living beyond extravagance. Luxury cars, mansions, the most expensive hotels and restaurants, designer suits and jewelry and this in a country where so many millions are marginalized


I couldn't help but notice the moment Juju hit his problems and had to go back to the people to try to rally for his cause, that Breitling watch so prominently and regularly flaunted had disappeared.

So who has been researching buying a BMW in the last 12 months?



Whether that's where the big bucks are being made, or it's where you feel the need to keep up with the Jones's (or Gumede's, Zuma's _et al_), let's admit that's not the order you'd expect.

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## Citizen X

A very good morning to you Dave,
It's noteworthy that the pettiest of reasons caused the French people at the time of the French revolution to become furious! It was a class struggle not a racial one. Just for simplicity, I’ll dispense with the exhaustive classifications of the classes at that time and simply say there were peasants and there were bourgeosie. The peasants were living in abject poverty and misery and the bourgeoisie were living extravagant lives. The peasants realised that the taxes that they paid, which they could not even afford to pay, was used to support this extravagant and gluttonous lifestyle of the bourgeosie. The sentiment we as South Africans expressed to etolling was similar to the sentiment expressed by the French peasantry. The were very angry that in the midst of poverty, the elite could still lead such extravagant lifestyles. As far as I’m concerned the entire ANC leadership is the bourgeoisie. It’s apparent that their primary motivation in life is money and more money and living like the King and Queen of the French revolution when so many millions of South Africans(all races) are either unemployed, living in an informal settlement have a job that pays you peanuts and generally feeling the burden of even the tax they currently pay.

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## Blurock

And then there's the matter of your new plane and one for the deputy just to make sure you have his support. Funny how the most humble person can become the most assuming egoist as soon as they get to a position of power. 

The PM of Great Britain flies British Airways. Not business class, but cattle class! Our president thinks he is so important that he needs his own plane at a cost exceeding R2 BILLION. This while people in our country are literally dying of hunger!

The President of Malawi has set an example to African leaders; she has sold the presidential jet to help her people. African leaders have learnt nothing from what has happened in Libya, Algeria, Egypt and what is currently happening in Syria. The people are getting Gatvol and unless you listen now, we can be in for a hard ride... :Yes:

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## Citizen X

I have a theory! This applies to Mugabe. I’m pretty sure he’s a glutton at the table and is lavishly served in some presidential dinning hall which is lavishly decorated. Now, since, the English dictionary now has new words are as gone ‘viral,’ I wonder if any of Mugabe’s dinner mates can please video him eating and upload to youtube?
I’m pretty sure that when his people see his gluttonous behavior with that lobster, roast lamb and prawns, they will immediately march on his presidential home! It was a petty thing such as what the King and Queen and elite of France were eating that infuriated the peasants of France during the French revolution!

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## Citizen X

Ownership by way of prescription!

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## Citizen X

*Just a thought..a way around land reform,!!!!*

Ownership by way of prescription! As at today’s date the only other legitimate way to become onwer’s of land is by prescription, to have occupation of that land for an uninterrupted period of 30 years.
I know it’s crazy, but let’s assume that I am the owner of farm land. Let’s further assume that I have the title deeds. I own it, BUT I concerned that, Mugabe, through Malema is actually having a say in my Country that I was born in, *then I’ll do the crazy thing and I won’t tell anyone about it*, I will confirm to affidavit that I claim: - That in terms of section 1 of the Prescription Act 68 of 1969, I hereby claim Acquisitive prescription of plot xxxxxx, as I have had uninterrupted occupation of this piece of land for more than 30 years*!!!!(Why on earth will I want to claim acquisitive prescription for land that I already own????JUST IN CASE!!!! AND, No body will know That I confirmed this to affidavit!!!)**I will* include in my affidavit that section 1 states:-

“Subject to the provisions of this Chapter and of Chapter IV, a person shall by prescription
become the owner of a thing which he has possessed openly and as if he were the owner thereof
for an uninterrupted period of thirty years or for a period which, together with any periods for
which such thing was so possessed by his predecessors in title, constitutes an uninterrupted
period of thirty years.”
The bad Guy: Cavera Q: “ How much men do you have to protect your land????”
The Good Guy: Chris A” *“ENOUGH!!!!!!!!!!!!”*

*The bad guys: The land invaders represented by**Calvera** and company
***

VERSES
*The Good Guys, the farmers ,The United nations Security Council and the International Criminal Court represented by Chris and company*



*Calvera:“We want your land and your crops.**If God did not want them sheared, He would not have made them sheep. So, how many of you did they hire?*
*Chris: Enough!*
*Calvera: I see you built some new walls!*

*Chris:**There are lots of new walls. All around.*
*Calvera: They won´t keep me out!*
*Chris: They were built to keep you in not to keep you out!*
*Calvera: Did you hear that? We´re trapped! All forty of us! By these three.Or is it four? They couldn´t afford to hire more than that.*
*Harry: We come cheaper by the dozen!*
*Calvera:* *Five! Even five won´t give us too much trouble!*
*Chris: There won't be any trouble... if you ride on.**Calvera: Ride on? Where am I going to get the food and land for my men?**Chico: Buy it or grow it!**O'Reilly: Or maybe even work for it.**Calvera: Hm, seven. Somehow I don't think you've solved my problem.Chris: Solving your problems isn't our line.**Vin: We deal in lead, friend.**Calvera: So do I. We're in the same business.**Vin: Only as competitors.**Calvera: Why not as partners? Suppose I offer you equal shares.**Chris: Of what?**Calvera: Everything. Down to the last grain.**Chico: And the people of the village? What about them?**Calvera: I leave it to you. Do men of our profession worry about things like that? It may even be sacrilegious! If God didn't want them sheared, He would not have made them sheep. What do you say?**Chris: Ride on.**Calvera: If I leave here with empty hands, everyone in this village will answer to me when I come back.**Chris: You won't come back!**Calvera: Why not?**Chris: You won't have any guns. Take them off right now and drop them*
*Cavera:Generosity. That was my first mistake!l leave these people a little bit extra and they hire these men to make trouble.*
*Chris: lt shows you: sooner or later,you must answer for every good deed.**Shoot out ensues!!!!!!*




*The good guys(The farmers, the United nations Security Council and the International Criminal Court represented by Chris and company) defeat the land invaders.....*

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