# Regulatory Compliance Category > Labour Relations and Legislation Forum > [Question] Fraud on Medical certificates

## Fitness freak

Do anyone know what is the right wording for a employee changes the dates on his medical certificate

We phoned the doctor and he only gave him one day of but the employee change the date to 3 days.
He never phoned in to let us know he is not coming in to work 
the doctor will give us a report with the right dates on his certificate 

What is the right way to handle this matter it is the first time I have to deal with  this sort of problem 

Normally it only bad time keeping

thanks  :Confused:

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## tec0

> Do anyone know what is the right wording for a employee changes the dates on his medical certificate


*It is illegal.* If the date was wrong only the doctor may correct it. If the doctor doesnât know about it then you can consider it as âfalsifying documentsâ I recommend you get a lawyer to tell you exactly what you can do and to give you advice on what can be done.

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## Jacob Zuma

If you have a policy against such things you do not need a lwayer. Just follow the policy. The is "misrepresentation" and depending on the severity it is a dismissable offence.

a warning to everone: Please put your company policies and procedure in place so that employees know exactly what the policy is surrounding issues within the workplace.

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## Fitness freak

Where does it stop

the normal summery of act is on a board in the tearoom 
but nothing is mentioned about fraudulent your medical certificate.

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## Dave A

Falsifying the medical certificate is a clear act of fraud. What needs to be established now is purpose.

Once you have established that the certificate was indeed changed, the next question in the disciplinary enquiry is "why?" Exactly what disciplinary action you should take is going to be pretty dependant on the answer.

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## tec0

That is truly a commendable answer Dave.  :Smile: 

Finding out why the person did it? Well normally I would just escalate without giving a second thought about the scenario. Perhaps I am too inhuman, what is needed here is an inquiry to establish motive and if you feel that the severity is not worthy of action just a written warning may be enough... 

A degree of leniency perhaps? 

Like you said it all comes down to the answer. 

cool stuff.

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## Morticia

Dave, sorry if I sound like a dragon lady, but quite frankly, if I employ a person who "changes" a medical certificate, my next question will be what else can this person "change"? Fraud is fraud, a variation of the degree thereof should be of no consequence.  Far too many white-collar crimes start with something a simple as changing the date on a medical certificate. :Rant1:

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Dave A (21-Sep-09)

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## Dave A

My original thought was "intent is relevant." But your point is well made, Morticia - there is also an issue of integrity here. My counter would be, not all positions require impeccable integrity (although it's *always* preferable).

Maybe I should add this, then:

Exactly what disciplinary action you should take is also going to be dependent on the person's position and role in the company.

Ultimately I would think the decision is between immediate dismissal and final written warning. Does the person deserve a second chance? Can the company afford to give this person a second chance?

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## tec0

Fact is you need to investigate, look at the severity and plan for training of another person to take this personâs place if you are planning to dismiss that person. Most important of all back track all documents and dealings done by this person. Make sure there is no other damage.

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## Fitness freak

The way I feel is to dismiss him
But I phoned the RMI and they suggest that he must get a final written warning
Apparently in court it will not been seen as bad as fraud.

This employee received his notice for the disciplinary hearing on Friday and didn't sign it and yesterday again he stayed out of work

I've got the feeling I will not see him again.

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## sterne.law@gmail.com

The charge is *Dishonesty* - in that on 3 December you intentionally and fraudently falsified a medical certificate.     This can bea dismissable offecne, even first time around (after hearing)

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Dave A (24-Oct-09)

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## Suu

You may be seeing them at the CCMA soon. We ignored an employee whom stayed away without alerting us , this happened more than once and they also did not perform and had few written warnigns in their name. We are now having to meet them at CCMA. Guess what claim they have : Unfair labour practise - reason for not coming to work regularly .

CCMA normally looks in the interest of the employee regardless of how wrong they have been. Be carefull and consult with experts before making any decision but a final written warning sound enough but fraud is normally a dismissable offence. But we can always ask to what degree and the aprty involved.

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## BBBEE_CompSpec

CCMA is a neutral body that weighs up evidence before it. If you are completely in line with all labour legislation, Follow a correct disciplinary and grievance process, keep to working standards and precedents, and have good reasons for dismissals, the CCMA will then consider the stronger evidence before it. Good practices in Employee Absenteeism has a lengthy process that not many businesses are aware of. I am up in Birchleigh having treatment for cancer. I will gladly come to your company and give you a few tips on how to handle situations similar to this in future. Please note I do not charge for advice.

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## BBBEE_CompSpec

According to Schedule 8 of The Labour Relations Act, Fraud can carry both a Final written Warning and/or Dismissal.

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## BBBEE_CompSpec

The charge is wrong. Make sure you have the correct info from the start. This can be construed as an incorrect procedure before you even have the hearing.

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## Fitness freak

I had no idea this will bring so many people to this discussion and glad everyone got more or less the same idea behind this labour issue.

So I'm just bringing you an update on what have happen't 

For safety we got an Chairperson in from an independent labour issue company in to do the hearing and verdict.  
He had a disciplinary hearing with is employee and the employee admitted he was wrong

Chairperson  came and and discuss the matter with us and we decided that he must go 

We've paid his leave out and gave him a letter of service 

His gone and haven't hear of him again  :Big Grin:

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## sterne.law@gmail.com

> You may be seeing them at the CCMA soon. We ignored an employee whom stayed away without alerting us , this happened more than once and they also did not perform and had few written warnigns in their name. We are now having to meet them at CCMA. Guess what claim they have : Unfair labour practise - reason for not coming to work regularly .
> 
> CCMA normally looks in the interest of the employee regardless of how wrong they have been. Be carefull and consult with experts before making any decision but a final written warning sound enough but fraud is normally a dismissable offence. But we can always ask to what degree and the aprty involved.


The CCMA is much more fair than employers think. Your matter is no big deal, the employee has made an incorrect referral - staying away from work(???) is not an unfair labour practice - employee should be referring as unfair dismissal.  If he wnats to continue with an unfair labour practice then let him continue because that falls under The jurisdiction of Lbaour court. That should atke a year befor ethey listen to him and it costs more.  

I presume this employee never returned to work - this is absconding. if this is so, you have never dimissed him - yet. So his unfair dimissal claim has no chance. You will need to hold a hearing and dismiss for the unreasonable absence.
Absconding is an interesting issue - there are divided opinions on how to handle this.

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## sterne.law@gmail.com

> I had no idea this will bring so many people to this discussion and glad everyone got more or less the same idea behind this labour issue.
> 
> So I'm just bringing you an update on what have happen't 
> 
> For safety we got an Chairperson in from an independent labour issue company in to do the hearing and verdict.  
> He had a disciplinary hearing with is employee and the employee admitted he was wrong
> 
> Chairperson  came and and discuss the matter with us and we decided that he must go 
> 
> ...


You might still hear from him, when he refers the matter. Unfortunately even when every step is followed the CCMA acts as the appeal process. But you will be good as you followed the procedures.

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## Dave A

> You might still hear from him, when he refers the matter.


I've found when you take the time to make sure the employee
understands why they were dismissedhave a sense that you have treated them fairly in the matter
they move on and it doesn't come back.

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## BBBEE_CompSpec

He still has condonation. He can apply in 150 days time using a medical reason for his late application. He will be granted Arbitration in limine. Never rest on your laurels. Get to know the law, the loopholes and the facts. You need to be one step ahead of your employees. You should have them working for you not you for them.

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## BBBEE_CompSpec

I recently was requested to do a retrenchment for a business that, in no way, could pay severance. In consultation I managed to convince the employee that if I did not do the process correctly and that if he didn't accept the offer put before him, I would have to close the business down completely. I did have alternatives to him losing his job completely. Now both the Employer and Employee are happy. There will still be a retrenchment. The business will not close. They will now work side by side and both determine their own salaries. And they have the SETA's backing.

There are ways to sort out problems. If you have incompatibility revert to retrenchment. Find them alternate work in another company. Try anything. Just don't look for a reason to dismiss. Employees are very clever today.

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## sterne.law@gmail.com

> He still has condonation. He can apply in 150 days time using a medical reason for his late application. He will be granted Arbitration in limine. Never rest on your laurels. Get to know the law, the loopholes and the facts. You need to be one step ahead of your employees. You should have them working for you not you for them.


Seeing as the guy has just been dismissed, condonation is not an issue, nonetheless there is no prescriptive case or time line for a condonation application. Each application will be treated on it's merits. and show good cause. Employers should also note that they may object in writing to a Condonation application. Quite correctly employers must educate themselves on the basics and NEVER take for granted that a case is a slam dunk!!

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## Marq

> Employees are very clever today


So what were they yesterday?

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## BBBEE_CompSpec

You need to go to Schedule 8 of the LRA. Secondly, your company needs to have its own Policies & Procedures Manual. I have one already to use in my latest book. It comes in CD or DVD format and only costs R460-00. There is also everything you need to discipline for any misconduct. You don't require a three warning system.

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## BBBEE_CompSpec

They weren't allowed to give an opinion. They were suppressed in their further education on labour legislation. Many business owners or Employers got away with murder. I could go on for ever. Today the Department of Labour has the right to advertise on both TV and Radio.

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## BBBEE_CompSpec

The Department of Labour now has equal jurisdiction with the CCMA. Where the CCMA were not allowed to adjudicate over salary matters in the past, they may now do so in the matter of a referral. CCMA cannot afford to have offices in all towns but the DOL is already established throughout SA. The DOL now accepts referral applications and transfers them to CCMA. Labour inspectors are now being trained in the areas of the CCMA. They are working together. We already know that the DOL is very biased and will act mainly on behalf of the employee.

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## BBBEE_CompSpec

In the total time I have worked with the CCMA, and that dates back to when the CCMA used the Industrial Courts premises as well as the DOL, that I have seen a condonation case go beyond 150 days. I was informed by a senior commissioner in Natal that he will not allow a hearing where the degree of lateness exceeded 150 days unless there was a serious medical reason quoted.

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## BBBEE_CompSpec

The scary part of going to an Arbitration at the CCMA is, unlike the civil courts where you have an idea of what will happen to you when you break the law, you never know what the result is going to be until the award is made. And that even if you have a reason and you follow the correct procedure. GET TO KNOW LABOUR LEGISLATION.

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## Chandler

What if the doctor wrote the wrong dates and it's backdated bt your employer charge you for tampering with a medical certificate

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## Dave A

> What if the doctor wrote the wrong dates and it's backdated bt your employer charge you for tampering with a medical certificate


Get a note from the doctor.
Or ask the employer to call the doctor.

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## Chandler

I did get another medical certificate with the correct dates bt my employer dismissed me

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## Chandler

What if the dates is backdated from 2019 to 2016 on the medical certificate ??? Can they still charge you for tampering with medical certificate??? And dismissed you

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## adrianh

> What if the dates is backdated from 2019 to 2016 on the medical certificate ??? Can they still charge you for tampering with medical certificate??? And dismissed you


As Dave said - Get them to call the Doctor to confirm your version of the story.

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## Dave A

> What if the dates is backdated from 2019 to 2016 on the medical certificate ??? Can they still charge you for tampering with medical certificate??? And dismissed you


One issue is who did the tampering.
Earlier you said it was the doctor. Your post I have quoted now suggests otherwise.

Your date range in the post I have quoted also indicates other potential problems. However, it is impossible to give fair comment when you are failing to disclose the entire story.

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## Annetta

You must send an absconding letter stating that if he does not return within 24 hours you will hold the disciplinary hearing in his absence and this may result in his termination. We sms the letter to the staff member. It has held up in the CCMA when the staff member cited unfair dismissal.

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