# General Business Category > General Business Forum >  IQ Test

## HR Solutions

Can someone please recommend a good online IQ test that I can either use online or download for our candidates ?

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## IanF

I have used wonderlic tests although it is the offline test I used. They also give you scores to match the position levels. I got it through TG associates but their website is down. It is a US company.

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eina26 (08-Aug-13)

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## pmbguy

University psychology departments can all so be a great source

http://www.psychology.uct.ac.za/

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## HR Solutions

Thank you very much guys .  We are not sure if we need an IQ test or an aptitude test.  Would this be suitable for an aptitude test to see if people are perhaps suited to sales for eg.

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## pmbguy

Do both anyway

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## Perform Computers

http://www.free-iqtest.net/

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## HR Solutions

Thank you very much.  I am trying to narrow down exactly what I need.  Is there a test that can pick up dyslexia ??

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## IanF

To me a candidate must fill in an application form at your offices. This tests wether they can read and comprehend basic instructions. If they get that right then you carry on.

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## HR Solutions

> To me a candidate must fill in an application form at your offices. This tests wether they can read and comprehend basic instructions. If they get that right then you carry on.



Yes they do Ian, and yes some do get past the starting blocks.  But a lot of our work is done on a computer and an online package whereby you enter and work on candidates cv's on line, enter clients details etc, so they may have filled in a two page form correctly because they perhaps spent a few more minutes working on it, but then find out that she cannot spell correctly etc etc, either because she is rushed or they may be dyslexic etc etc.  So I am trying to find an online test whereby we can try to pick theses things up earlier.  have found some very basic ones which are not suitable because if you have half a brain cell for eg you can figure out the correct answers, so preferably need a test that can test Apptitude, dyslexia and IQ as well where we can test them at an interview stage.

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## IanF

And I thought printing was getting more complicated. That is why I try to keep my staff happy, I haven't employed anyone new in 4 years.
I would rather get more automated than employ more people.

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## HR Solutions

> And I thought printing was getting more complicated. That is why I try to keep my staff happy, I haven't employed anyone new in 4 years.
> I would rather get more automated than employ more people.


lol .. yeah I think so would I  :Smile: 

In the recruitment industry, the ideal consultant is between 25-30 yrs female.  They are dynamic, fun loving - we have a very good vibe at our company - they bring fresh ideas which helps to grow the business.  They know the line between working and having fun in the office and know their pocket is affected at the end of the month, but finding the right person is a difficulty.  There are too many people out there, that job hop, they get offered a couple of hundred rand more and they are gone, too many young people that also don't want to work that hard and think they can earn a fortune.

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## eina26

Nice, thanks for this.  :Smile:  Checking it out now.

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## pmbguy

> For most of the companies, it is very necessary to apply IQ test, it gives information of overall knowledge or a candidate.


How does this make you feel?

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## adrianh

An IQ test is just another easy way to weed out candidates for a job, just like saying a person must be a graduate or the person must have 10 years experience. It is an arbitrary measure that doesn't measure anything of real value as far as I am concerned. How will an IQ test measure creative ability, artistic ability, ability to think laterally (within the domain of the job) An IQ test is simply too generic to have any real value. The only test that I have found to work is very simple, give them a piece of work and see how they do - it is not a matter of being able to do the work correctly per se, it is a matter of watching how the person handles the problem at hand. That is exactly why I say one should hire for attitude and train for skill - I can train the average guy to do all the things that I need them to do if they have the correct attitude but I am unable to work with a know it all arrogant a$$hole (who may have a terribly high IQ)

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## HR Solutions

> It is an arbitrary measure that doesn't measure anything of real value as far as I am concerned. How will an IQ test measure creative ability, artistic ability, ability to think laterally


It doesn't Adrian, but what it does show you is if the person can spell, write, think a little, and work out basic maths.  And you can pick up if the person is dyslexic.

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## adrianh

Fair enough...

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## HR Solutions

> Fair enough...



It's quite scary when you realize that some people never get responses for eg to their emails. And then you find out they have transposed some of the letters !!! They are therefore just not suited to that type of job

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## adrianh

Many more people don't get responses to their emails because they write in celphone wth no cps + no punc...lol

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## tec0

There is a high risk that the IQ test you use may not be as “universal” as you may hope and if you take that test into account then be assured that those who did not pass your test may ask for a formal inquiry that will question your qualification to administer the test to the validity of the test itself. There may well be legal ramifications. 

Rather consult an entity that *specialises* in these test and have *the proper legal authority*. You can step into a very big pile of hot crap if you discriminate because of a test that have no value other then you enforcing it.

Also you are obligated to notify people that they are being tested and on what bases. They have the right to know these things.

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## HR Solutions

Nope not wasting money on formal stuff.  My tests are fantastic and there will be no formal inquiry .  They are applying for a job !!!!

So many people think that its "discrimination" when you don't get a job, but the bottom line is you don't get the job because you CANT DO the job !

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## IanF

I agree with Adrian "hire for attitude and train for skill" the trick is to make sure they are trainable which is were the tests come in.

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## tec0

> I agree with Adrian "hire for attitude and train for skill" the trick is to make sure they are trainable which is were the tests come in.


I also agree with IanF you need to allow for some type of training. 




> Nope not wasting money on formal stuff.  My tests are fantastic and there will be no formal inquiry .  They are applying for a job !!!!
> 
> So many people think that its "discrimination" when you don't get a job, but the bottom line is you don't get the job because you CANT DO the job !


Taking HR Solutions attitude in consideration. This is not right... Yes you do need a screening process but if you don't have a N6 qualification or a degree or a recognized system that can identify the people correctly then not only are you failing your obligation towards your customers you are willfully discriminating against the job seekers.

Now it doesn't really matter what you think discrimination is or isn't... It is what the laws of this country say it is. And *IF* that is indeed the case then you made your own bed.

I am going to ask a very serous question now. Do possible future employees pay you for your services when they register with your company?

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## adrianh

> Nope not wasting money on formal stuff.  My tests are fantastic and there will be no formal inquiry .  They are applying for a job !!!!
> 
> So many people think that its "discrimination" when you don't get a job, but the bottom line is you don't get the job because you CANT DO the job !


The problem is that people who CAN do the job are dumped because of some or other unrealistic metric.

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## HR Solutions

tec - we have had this conversation again so I am not going to answer the "discrimination" thing, but I will answer the last question where you have again got it wrong.

No, "possible future employees" do not, will not, never have and never will pay to "register" with our company. The company that hires staff pays our fees ! I hope that answers your very serious question.
And to further answer this question.  Candidates looking for a job can upload their cv on our website (which was kindly set up by Mark of this site), if they upload their info correctly and properly, their info goes directly into our online data base whereby when our consultant look for someone to fill a position, their names, qualifications and criteria will match with theirs and they are then interviewed by us and sent forward to our client if they are suitable.

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## tec0

Just remember: 




> *No person may unfairly discriminate, directly or indirectly*, against an employee, in any employment policy or practice, on one or more grounds, including race, gender, sex, pregnancy, marital status, family responsibility, ethnic or social origin, colour, sexual orientation, age, *disability*, religion, HIV status, conscience, belief, political opinion, culture, language and birth.





> Thank you very much.  I am trying to narrow down exactly what I need.  Is there a test that can pick up *dyslexia* ??


Now obviously from this point one must question are you or the people that you represent doing the above? Remember you do get systems dyslexic people can use to get qualified. But if you are not interested in there qualification and just in there dyslexia what exactly are you doing?

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## wynn

HR please start a thread with a generic CV that anybody can copy and fill in the blanks.

Make it one that employment agents like yourself would best like to receive that would give a job applicant the advantage over other applicants?

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## HR Solutions

deleted                      
I am not going to get into another slinging match with tec !

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## tec0

> deleted                      
> I am not going to get into another slinging match with tec !


This is not mud slinging. Lets be clear. You started this thread and later single out dyslexia. Now I take it you hoped that this reaction will not provoke a response. Now lets be clear you always stated that I am the one looking for trouble or think that the world owes me something. Yet you go forth here and on other threads. 

The reality is you do not make your intentions clear. You did not state the reasons why you need to identify this condition or what the repercussions will be. Example what will happen if they are qualified "capable" and dyslexic? Will they still get an interview yes or no. Will you still count there CV submission yes or no? 

This is what you get if you are not clear of what you want and why. Simple fact don't start something slap someone in the face *AND YOU DID!* there is no denying you know your own intention. Don't think you can just call it mud slinging sir. no... Because then you are seriously getting on my bad side... 

The way I see it you can ignore this and or give a clear statement as to your full intention otherwise people will jump to there own conclusions. 

You always say we must take responsiblity. Now I am asking you to do the same. Take responsiblity

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## HR Solutions

No problem tec.  

tec if people are interested in either coming to us for a job or contacting us to look for people to work for them, they do contact me via PM.  A lot of people have also uploaded their CV on our website.  And for those that may be "confused" they can also PM me.
We supply a service and have helped out thousands of people over the years.  We are extremely proud of this and are also opening our Cape Town doors shortly.

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## HR Solutions

> Make it one that employment agents like yourself would best like to receive that would give a job applicant the advantage over other applicants?


Wynn to answer your question, we accept all cvs from our data base/from our website.  There is no right and wrong.  All we want from cv's is total honesty.  If a CV is not honest, it makes our consultants jobs all that much harder when interviewing to try to find the right person for our clients ie sifting out irrelevant information etc and actually ascertaining that a person can do what they say they can do or are qualified to do.  We also do crim checks, qualification checks and ITC checks, depending what our clients want, with the candidates permission of course.

A few things that are really irrelevant on CV's is, what rank you had in the army, how fast you could run 20 years ago, what scout group you belonged to etc etc etc  :Smile:   .  Its quite surprising what some people do put on their cv's.

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## tec0

> No problem tec.  
> 
> tec if people are interested in either coming to us for a job or contacting us to look for people to work for them, they do contact me via PM.  A lot of people have also uploaded their CV on our website.  And for those that may be "confused" they can also PM me.
> We supply a service and have helped out thousands of people over the years.  We are extremely proud of this and are also opening our Cape Town doors shortly.


Thank you but sadly you didn't answer anything...

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## CLIVE-TRIANGLE

On an issue that came up a few times in this thread, namely dyslexia. A good friend who is also a good client, being the sole shareholder and director of a major manufacturer, is dyslexic. 

He happens to be the smartest man I know. Not most intelligent or even knowledgeable, but by very far the smartest.

Not only that, his impairment, if that is what it is, scores him points with EE because it is classed as a disability.

Despite his disability, he has no problem releasing payments on Best for more money in a month than I will see in my lifetime. I forget to mention that he is also somewhat well off, perhaps even rich. Imagine what he could achieve if it were not for this disability.

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tec0 (21-Aug-13)

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## HR Solutions

> Thank you but sadly you didn't answer anything...


You are right tec, not to you.

@ Clive yes I totally agree with you about being dyslexic.  And if tec had read correctly at the beginning of this thread he would have seen who and why I wanted this test done for.  There is a place for all in todays society, but not for all in certain positions.  Its as if we place an engineer into a lawyers position.  They are just not going to crack it. !

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## adrianh

tec0 - you don't seem to understand what HR Solutions does - He searches for candidates to be employed by HIS CLIENTS based on their criteria. HR Solutions DOES NOT set the criteria, the CLIENT DOES.

No matter how much you talk about discrimination etc... the final decision to employ somebody still rests with the CLIENT who is looking for the employee. 

There are many jobs where dyslexia is a serious problem, just as being colour blindness could be a serious problem. It seems to be very difficult for you to grasp that some people are simply not suited to a particular job or task. I have ADD and I will never be a medical doctor, why, because I will forget half the tools in the patients stomach, I will never be a pilot because my health and eyesight are not up to scratch, I will never be a parabat because I am not fit enough and will never be fit enough.

So, no matter how much you bitch and moan, a blind man simply ain't going to be a bus driver and a deaf mute is not going to be a talkshow host...

*LIFE IS NOT FAIR - DEAL WITH IT!*

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HR Solutions (21-Aug-13)

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## pmbguy

Hi there tec0
I am not shouting or anything, but it seems to me that you a bit confrontational. Are you not tired of fighting your shadow? You staring to sound a bit like Mariana..loljust kidding I dont think anybody could be that bad again, but I hope to see somebody challenge her position of diatribe king one day. Anyway, It sounds like you taking HRs question as a personal insult and attack. I can assure you that he means no harm by his question it is a natural question given his industry. 

@HR  Trust me on the University. Their stuff is certified and you will get great advice to build efficient and effective tests. 

I know many successful self made businessmen who would fail miserably at proficiency tests if they ever had to apply for a position. In the same breath that same businessmen would excel in an interview with a clued-up interviewer or prospective employer. You can tell by meeting somebody whether they have what it takes. 
Testing acts as a filter (with some wholes) to get a list going, you cant interview the whole SA. Its too impractical.

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HR Solutions (21-Aug-13)

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## Dave A

There is no greater disservice you can do to a person than put them in a job that they will never be capable of doing no matter how hard they try.
And as government is learning at our cost, being too soft in your hiring practices is harmful to both the enterprise and the competent staff within it.

I actually wonder if there are elements within the ruling party that regret having rushed into promulgating such progressive labour regulation in SA in one big leap. They certainly managed to create a rod for their own back, and my goodness are they ever getting whipped with it.

I'm not arguing with the ideals behind all this. It's just with the benefit of hindsight, it's pretty clear it would have been wiser to rather head in that direction in gentle steps.

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HR Solutions (21-Aug-13), pmbguy (23-Aug-13)

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## HR Solutions

Thanks Adrian, pmb and Dave for understanding the concept and having another bash at trying to further explain it again.

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## tec0

simple question do qualified people get interviews if they are found to have dyslexia?

I am not saying make them a doctor when they are qualified in something else. Those where your words not mine so if you want scream at someone adrian then first read. 

Lets be clear I am only asking questions now. Why because I want clarity. I want to know the answer to the above question. Why is HR avoiding this question? 

Right now you are making an argument so that you can make your point. Your argument is based on what you think I said not what I actually said so take it for what it is.




> Yes they do Ian, and yes some do get past the starting blocks.  But a lot of our work is done on a computer and an online package whereby you enter and work on candidates cv's on line, enter clients details etc, so they may have filled in a two page form correctly because they perhaps spent a few more minutes working on it, but then find out that she cannot spell correctly etc etc, either because she is rushed or they may be dyslexic etc etc.  S*o I am trying to find an online test whereby we can try to pick theses things up earlier.  have found some very basic ones which are not suitable because if you have half a brain cell for eg you can figure out the correct answers, so preferably need a test that can test Apptitude, dyslexia and IQ as well where we can test them at an interview stage.*


where was this question answered as suggested? nope... 




> You are right tec, not to you.
> 
> @ Clive yes I totally agree with you about being dyslexic.  And if tec had read correctly at the beginning of this thread he would have seen who and why I wanted this test done for.  There is a place for all in todays society, but not for all in certain positions.  Its as if we place an engineer into a lawyers position.  They are just not going to crack it. !


So where did you make your intentions clear?

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## tec0

> tec0 - you don't seem to understand what HR Solutions does - He searches for candidates to be employed by HIS CLIENTS based on their criteria. HR Solutions DOES NOT set the criteria, the CLIENT DOES.
> 
> No matter how much you talk about discrimination etc... the final decision to employ somebody still rests with the CLIENT who is looking for the employee. 
> 
> There are many jobs where dyslexia is a serious problem, just as being colour blindness could be a serious problem. It seems to be very difficult for you to grasp that some people are simply not suited to a particular job or task. I have ADD and I will never be a medical doctor, why, because I will forget half the tools in the patients stomach, I will never be a pilot because my health and eyesight are not up to scratch, I will never be a parabat because I am not fit enough and will never be fit enough.
> 
> So, no matter how much you bitch and moan, a blind man simply ain't going to be a bus driver and a deaf mute is not going to be a talkshow host...
> 
> *LIFE IS NOT FAIR - DEAL WITH IT!*


all the big letters in the world will not change the fact that you took my question out of context so try again... Like you said it is not fair so deal with it...

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## tec0

In the end it doesn't help to get angry. I know for a fact that goes round comes around. It may take years or perhaps a few generations but in the end it will. 

Like I said before I do not have any delusion or  misunderstanding. Truth is your misdirection failed. The truth is what it is and all the screaming and arrogance and snide remarks will not change it.

And you are right the world doesn't owe me anything. That doesn't mean I have to keep my mouth shut.

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## adrianh

Arguing with you is like arguing with the wife,, there is only one way to conclude the argument;

Yes dear, whatever you say dear....

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## pmbguy

@Adrian -4:42AM, were you about to go to bed or was this after you got up?

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## HR Solutions

> Like I said before I do not have any delusion or misunderstanding


SERIOUS !!! ?

As Adrian says.  Yes Dear.

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## adrianh

@pmbguy - suffice to say that the DM makes so much noise in her sleep that there are no wild Buffalo left in our neighbourhood. I give her a swift kick, fiddle a bit with the tablet and then try to get back to sleep.

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## HR Solutions

> @pmbguy - suffice to say that the DM makes so much noise in her sleep that there are no wild Buffalo left in our neighbourhood. I give her a swift kick, fiddle a bit with the tablet and then try to get back to sleep.


You had wild buffalo in your street !!!!!   :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## adrianh

For sure, but they're all gone now - I promise you... :-)

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## IMHO

> what rank you had in the army,


Interesting that you mention this. Can it be that you are part of the 'post army' days and do not understand the importance of this and how much it tells you about the person?  Personally I love to get info like this when hiring.

Then again, the applicants interest and hobbies might not mean anything to you, but could make the diff. in the final interview. My son is an example of that. The final round were between him and another applicant, very even contest. He got the job because he had the same interests/hobbies as the owner of the business.

As an employer, I wrote a comprehension test to do the sifting. I use it as an introduction to my business, explaining as much as possible about the business and even throw in maths, some invoice skills, IT jargon, anything that is important in your business and check for comprehension afterwards. It also save me time in the introduction process afterwards and points me in the direction that needs further clarification. All of the answers is in the piece they have to read, yet they get it soo wrong! I never employed a 100% scorer yet. I simply can not afford them! Maybe that is where I make a huge mistake! In the end, it is not about the score, it is just a means to get the list shorter and to avoid really bad choices.

HRS, please do place the links to tests you find useful. Especially wrt IQ. I do not want to use it as an employment tool, rather to play around and see what the hype is all about. But genuine tests, not the play stuff on the net.

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tec0 (22-Aug-13)

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## HR Solutions

@ IMHO yes I hear you regarding hobbies etc, but what you did 25 years ago has no relevance on a job application today. (in most cases).
With regards to posting our "tests" etc etc.  I would have but I am not prepared to expose ourselves/myself again after what happened previously with regards to certain people stating what we can and cannot do regarding the law ! Sorry man. But I am sure you understand.

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## IMHO

> what you did 25 years ago has no relevance on a job application today.


Wrong! What do they say about a leopard and it's spots? I agree that a lot of physical things could have changed, but your character is your character. Be it as it may. I am not trying to teach you how to suck eggs! I can just tell you, rank achieved in the old SAW en Seuns can tell you a lot about a person. Also, what the rank were, division etc. and whether it was a non-commission rank or not. If you know the difference and experienced it, that is, haha. 

All I am saying is, do not let your own personality stand in your way of interpreting valuable information. You might not like running, never ran and therefore do not know the characteristics of a runner. Sure, his body might have changed and he can not do it anymore, but you can have the best body in the world, but without the right mind, it will not achieve for you. If you can not relate to something, ask others who can...

On the other hand, you probably dealing mostly with young recruits, so what does it matter that the person is proud to have been a chess champion when he was in grade six? It does not matter if he is not qualified or suited for the position, but when he gets to the shortlist, it starts to matter, however insignificantly. So, maybe what you are saying is, bring it up at a later stage and do not clutter the CV?

I do understand your other issue. What a pity, depriving others of possibly valuable info. How bout a PM?

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tec0 (22-Aug-13)

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## HR Solutions

um yeah you have a point.

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## adrianh

> Wrong! What do they say about a leopard and it's spots? I agree that a lot of physical things could have changed, but your character is your character. Be it as it may. I am not trying to teach you how to suck eggs! I can just tell you, rank achieved in the old SAW en Seuns can tell you a lot about a person. Also, what the rank were, division etc. and whether it was a non-commission rank or not. If you know the difference and experienced it, that is, haha. 
> 
> All I am saying is, do not let your own personality stand in your way of interpreting valuable information. You might not like running, never ran and therefore do not know the characteristics of a runner. Sure, his body might have changed and he can not do it anymore, but you can have the best body in the world, but without the right mind, it will not achieve for you. If you can not relate to something, ask others who can...
> 
> On the other hand, you probably dealing mostly with young recruits, so what does it matter that the person is proud to have been a chess champion when he was in grade six? It does not matter if he is not qualified or suited for the position, but when he gets to the shortlist, it starts to matter, however insignificantly. So, maybe what you are saying is, bring it up at a later stage and do not clutter the CV?
> 
> I do understand your other issue. What a pity, depriving others of possibly valuable info. How bout a PM?



I totally disagree with you. The fact that the person was a kopperaal in the army means nothing (other than he probably was a twat) or he was a lieutenant (he was a lazy twat with bird crap on his shoulder) The fact that a person excelled in the army at being a total a$$hole doesn't mean much in the real world. 

Leopards DO change their spots, big-time. 

You go on to say that your character doesn't change - BULLCRAP - My friends and I were all worthless washout drug addicts, today we are all average people leading average lives. Further, our minds, ideas, values etc do not get locked in 25 years ago, the things that I believe now are totally different from what I believed then.

I could not care less where somebody came from or what he did when he was 17, all I care about is his attitude towards his future. People f_ck up when they are young and YOU hold it against them. The fact that I spent the first 20 years of my life stoned and messing about means nothing when it comes to my ability to reason...

Nah, I think you're taking a fat chance!

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## pmbguy

I think the emphasis should be about Holistic assessment

Ideally you want a holistic understanding of whom you want to employ for what. First impressions will provide you context.  Tests may save you unnecessary dander. The point is the point. Job needs X, you get the best guy for X. What is best may be the professor or the student, or both.

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## IMHO

> I totally disagree with you. The fact that the person was a kopperaal in the army means nothing (other than he probably was a twat) or he was a lieutenant (he was a lazy twat with bird crap on his shoulder) The fact that a person excelled in the army at being a total a$$hole doesn't mean much in the real world. 
> 
> Leopards DO change their spots, big-time. 
> 
> You go on to say that your character doesn't change - BULLCRAP - My friends and I were all worthless washout drug addicts, today we are all average people leading average lives. Further, our minds, ideas, values etc do not get locked in 25 years ago, the things that I believe now are totally different from what I believed then.
> 
> I could not care less where somebody came from or what he did when he was 17, all I care about is his attitude towards his future. People f_ck up when they are young and YOU hold it against them. The fact that I spent the first 20 years of my life stoned and messing about means nothing when it comes to my ability to reason...
> 
> Nah, I think you're taking a fat chance!


I rest my case. Your post says it all. Sounds like you were miserable then and is miserable now. From your bit about the army, it is clear you had a problem with authority then and still despise your seniors of way back then. You could not take it that they shouted the odds and you had to listen. Never mind that it was due to your own laziness and disrespect. I will never employ you, as you are what you are. You might have learned through the years how to hide it in the real world in order to survive, but you do not fool me.

This part
"Also, what the rank were, division etc. and whether it was a non-commission rank or not."
also clearly went way over your head as you do not have a clue what is meant by it. You just despise them all, full stop.

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tec0 (22-Aug-13)

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## adrianh

IMHO - ag ou broer, sticks n stones....- or as they say in Afrikaans "Ek voel n veer" ...no matter how much you insult me I will still not agree with you. I still think that the ARMY was a load of rubbish and that 99% of the people in positions of authority were a total bunch of AHOLES who were unable to make it in the real world. Remember the phrase "PF P__s".. I'm sure you do...

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## tec0

> I would have but I am not prepared to expose ourselves/myself again after what happened previously with regards to certain people


I think you are well past that threshold. If anything you may want to consider a request that admin sterilize this thread. Despite everything consider the fact that this thread may well discourage people from submitting there CVs. Also future members/customers may well find the information here distasteful. 

Taking your post into consideration including other conversations here it is obvious that you use your own discretion more and perhaps it is a good thing but sometimes as pointed out the employer may well be looking for a characteristic that you may not deem important/worthy as found in earlier posts.

In future perhaps consider making your intentions clear. Thus you can avoid objections and people may have a clear understanding as to your reasoning and intention.

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## adrianh

I just finished reading a study about dyslexia. They found that people who are dyslexic also are missing some vital parts of the brain. They found that the area where intelligent thought normally takes place is simply not there. So, those  who have this terrible disorder have to employ lesser areas of the brain to reason with. The biggest problem they say, is that those lesser areas are very often wired up in such a way that the wires cross and short out like a  faulty telephone. This is why dyslexics not only see letters back to front but also tend to get the proverbial; cat by the tail all the time.

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## tec0

> I just finished reading a study about dyslexia. They found that people who are dyslexic also are missing some vital parts of the brain. They found that the area where intelligent thought normally takes place is simply not there. So, those  who have this terrible disorder have to employ lesser areas of the brain to reason with. The biggest problem they say, is that those lesser areas are very often wired up in such a way that the wires cross and short out like a  faulty telephone. This is why dyslexics not only see letters back to front but also tend to get the proverbial; cat by the tail all the time.


I would love to see the source Adrian... 

I see you like insulting people... For some time now I have observed you and your approach. You’re primary train of thought is “what can they do to me” Answer “nothing at all” Yes admin can step in and ban both of us and in a way it may actually be a benefit for the forum outright. 

You are destructive force with no regard or respect to anyone. Like HR you over evaluate your importance and believe you have the right to speak for others in their absence. For example if a real customer of HR would see this thread and others would you think that there response would be forthcoming? [Rhetorical Question] 

After all HR made it clear that they are only a facilitator and that they “the employer” laid the ground rules as to what they want and what they don’t want. That can have consequences if you consider some of the labour laws.

Herein I would say rather stop reconsider what it is you wish to accomplish and rather make your intentions clear. But I think we are past this stage as is. I understand if your post towards me is outright a slap in the face. I can take it. Question is when you start to do it to other members what are your intention? [Rhetorical Question]

If you consider my post you would find that my intention was stated clearly. Yet you rather opted to mock in hopes that people will think I am just being a jerk. Truth is they will read and they will wonder as I do. What happens within that situation.

I also made a lot of mistakes posted a lot of things and regretted it. We are human. So it is up to you.

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## adrianh

What are you on about, I'm simply relating what I read on the internet.

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## HR Solutions

Oh tec just FYI sake I have had 3 pm,s (positive) relating to this thread and 2 cv.s sent to my e mail add as of yesterday 5.30 pm so  this has been a very good thread so no need to "sterilize" this thread, whatever that means.  

I must say I had a good laugh at your last post.  :Smile:  you really don't make any sense at all, you read posts wrong and then quote totally wrong as well  :Smile:  it really is quite funny.

I would also like to add that a while ago you were complaining what a "crap" life you had etc etc etc.
I can actually see it in the way you write. In fact I would further say that you are not only dyslexic but you are bi-polar, which sort of gives further meaning to what Adrian above has said, which you also disputed, which in fact is true if you Google it, which you do quite often because you always have a lot to say about different topics.  You are the most negative person that I have come across for a long time. People have tried to help you along the way, but you do not take heed of what they say.
Obviously that is your choice, but do not always find the negative in everything that people say on this forum.  Rather respect everyone's opinion, because you certainly cannot change the way some intelligent people are.  I am saying this to once again try to help you, because most people do not enjoy negativity all the time.  Therefore in closing - Have a Happy Day.  Be thankful for what we have in this beautiful country of ours  :Smile:

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## adrianh

> it is clear you had a problem with authority then and still despise your seniors of way back then.


You damn right I have a problem with authority - I have no regard for some idiot who gets into a position and then thinks that he can do as he please because of that position. I respect those who deserve respect, no matter their station in life. I despise numerous individuals of way back then, there are people who should be shot on sight, but then that goes for many people today as well.

The rank that a person attained in the army means nothing at all to me because the fact that the person could run around and scream and shout absurd orders all day doesn't mean that they had any intelligence. Of course there were many well educated and intelligent people in the army with and without rank - if you  think for a minute that army rank means anything in the real world then you must be living on some unknown planet. Imagine a person who had a k@k kopperaal attitude having to work side by side with "die troepe" in the real world, I think that he would get a couple of smacks very quickly. I can think of a couple of "kopperaals" who deserve a fat smack!

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## Citizen X

> Can someone please recommend a good online IQ test that I can either use online or download for our candidates ?


*Naturally, a business can do as they see fit provided they willing to contend with whatever consequence that will materialise.*



*There is a different between a psychometric test and an IQ test. Notwithstanding this, IQ tests are classified as “**other similar assessments of an employee,”* in terms of section 8 of the Employment Equity Act 55 of 1998.


It’s noteworthy that all the sections in the EEA that deal with unfair discrimination such as psychometric testing *also apply to an applicant for employment*(someone looking for a job and goes for an interview)

1. Only a psychometrist can lawfully conduct psychometric tests for employment. *This means that one needs to have a Bachelor Degree in Psychology, a honours degree, completion of board exams as well as registration with the Health Professional Council of South Africa;*
2.*Section 8 of the EEA provides*




Psychometric testing *and* *other similar assessments of an employee* are prohibited *unless* the test or assessment being used -

(a) has been scientifically shown to be valid and reliable;

(b) can be applied fairly to employees; and

(c) is not biased against any employee or group


3. The implication is that it’s not very wise to simply download tests from the internet and subject potential employees to such test, the further implication is that if such tests are really required then one must either be a psychometrist, have a psychometrist in their employ or subcontract to a psychometrist

4. This demonstrates that all facets of our lives are regulated by law including the human resource function

*Further relevant questions are:* Does an individual who is not a psychometrist, including myself, know the difference between a psychometric test for employment and an IQ test for employment? Does such an individual know how to analyze the results of either test and draw objectively justifiable conclusions from them?

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ghostwriter (31-Aug-13), pmbguy (31-Aug-13), tec0 (01-Sep-13)

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## Justloadit

I think we are running away from ourselves here.
At the end of the day the employer ultimately is the one who makes the financial payment for what ever work is required from an employee, and has to look at the employee day in and day out! 
So by that mere fact, the employer can choose who ever he thinks is fit for his organization, irrespective of how we as outsiders think that the selection method is flawed or not. since he is the one paying and no law should change that. Who are we as outsiders that know bette, the day you pay the wages is the day that you can choose to employ.

In my opinion if I am paying the bucks, I surely have every right to choose what I get for it.

This is one of the reasons that unemployment is also high, the entity who is making the payments can not choose who it wishes to employ, because who ever pitches up first is entitled to the position.

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HR Solutions (31-Aug-13), pmbguy (31-Aug-13)

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## led

My 2cents. Personnelfiles must contain job title, job description, all certificates, test scores, red ticket, vehicle/heavy vehicle licenses. This includes screening processes for competency.

All certificates must be legitimate, up to date and on recorded with their respective institutions. All institutions must be registered/recognised with their respective governmentbodies.  

Personnel must then report for induction.  

All workshop/tools, safety equipment must have respective certification/quality assurance certification such as South African Bureau of Standards [SABS]. All instrumentation must have proof of calibration and service history. 

If you fail in any aspect you are given a warning and time to correct or you lose your spot on the vender.  

It is up to us to employ the right people but everything must be legitimate up to date and conform to all government/company standards.  

I personally dont know the commercial sector but in the privatesector everything will be by the book. If there is an investigation/audit or inspection and they found you did your own thing its over.

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tec0 (01-Sep-13)

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## Justloadit

@Led

Duno what you talking about. This thread is about companies doing their own internal pre test to see if the canddate that has applied for the position, has any qualifications to do the job.

On countless occassions, I have seen propecs showing a number of certificates and diplomas in the art they are applying for, yet when you give them a simple schematic or drawing, they have no clue what the drawing is even about, and yet according to the law, I am in the wrong! because it is not a recognised test process. Bullsh!t.

This is the reason that there are so many incompetant people in positions, simply because the so called correct testing procedure was followed. 
And if these employees actaully fail in their positions, it is now the company's fault for not training them!

Where have we arrived? anything goes now.

If you do not have an aptitude for a specific kind of field, you can not be taught it.
You either have it or you don't, so move on. Let industry get on with business, it will create the employment positions everyone is seeking, trying to force employment is not the way to create it!

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## HR Solutions

Yep  sorry led no idea what u are talking about.  This s about an IQ test.

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## led

> @Led
> 
> Duno what you talking about. This thread is about companies doing their own internal pre test to see if the canddate that has applied for the position, has any qualifications to do the job.
> 
> On countless occassions, I have seen propecs showing a number of certificates and diplomas in the art they are applying for, yet when you give them a simple schematic or drawing, they have no clue what the drawing is even about, and yet according to the law, I am in the wrong! because it is not a recognised test process. Bullsh!t.
> 
> This is the reason that there are so many incompetant people in positions, simply because the so called correct testing procedure was followed. 
> And if these employees actaully fail in their positions, it is now the company's fault for not training them!
> 
> ...


I cannot tell you how to run your business. I can tell you that any subcontractor I use will be provided with a list of requirements. If the subcontractor  accepts the conditions I expect them to deliver. If they can't we go someplace else. 

I understand that you have to check people out before you employ them. The same is true for me but my customer expects me to give him a Personnelfile with legitimate paperwork or they use someone else.

This is not about forcing something. This is about liability, our contracts come with penalties and demand commitment. We dont get to play the blame game.

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## led

> *Naturally, a business can do as they see fit provided they willing to contend with whatever consequence that will materialise.*
> 
> 
> 
> *There is a different between a psychometric test and an IQ test. Notwithstanding this, IQ tests are classified as **other similar assessments of an employee,* in terms of section 8 of the Employment Equity Act 55 of 1998.
> 
> 
> Its noteworthy that all the sections in the EEA that deal with unfair discrimination such as psychometric testing *also apply to an applicant for employment*(someone looking for a job and goes for an interview)
> 
> ...


unfortunately i am being moderated and some of my posts are not appearing? No idea why that is. I was responding to the above? 

I can see there is a lot of confusion towards the subject and because we work within the rules and regulations of heavyindustry as well as the privatesector I wanted to share the basic requirements when you deal with them in general. 

I cannot think of s single company in mining/power/steel industry that would condone private none certifiable testing. Fact is if we want to employ someone we are obligated by written contract to follow the rules and regulations stipulated by the company.

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## tec0

:Rofl:   :Rofl:   :Rofl: 

According to them the "IQ" test can be performed to make sure the person can do the job before they hire the person but it is for "personal" use only. I have no problem with that. A mechanic must show his skill by working on a engine and so on and so on. Yet if they READ there own post some are actually using the IQ test *to provide a "service"* thus it is no longer for private use now is? No... they are doing it for *"customers"* thus this changes everything. They confused the 2 tings 

1 is to test and see if someone can do the job at the job as part of the interview. Yes I see no problem with this  
2 the IQ test is being used by a company to sceen people before they get to the interview stage. THIS IS A SERVICE Thus it must be done by sertified poeple.  

It is written in black and white. But  :No:  

This is what you must believe;      




> Yep  sorry led no idea what u are talking about.  This s about an IQ test.


 :Slap:

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## IanF

No one opens a business to screw employees. You want employees who can do the job better than you without hassles and then pay them a fair wage for that.

You don't want employees who do the bare minimum or less then still come late, or better still don't come to work when there is a job for a customer which has a deadline and they are sick. Who carries that can the employer. 

So how do you manage that?
You try and hire the right employees first, then you look at automating the process. 

What I would love is both sides looking for the win-win situation that when it happens is great, but that does not happen enough! Instead we have the 'rights' of employees being abused because you want a fair days work for a fair days wage. If employees constantly look for ways to trip up the employer to go to CCMA or rip them off! Read Think and grow rich  that works.

Sure some employers do exploit there workers, but now all employers must suffer that just drives a bigger wedge between them. Just think how pleasant it is when you go to a supermarket and the employees actually help you and are pleasant, instead of hiding away in the back until the queues are long then come out all surly from the back and then slowly help you. I look for the shops where the cashiers are all there even when there are no queues. So the Spar gets my business even though they are slightly more expensive than other shops.

So just as employers look for the right staff, employees should look for the right employers by having the right skills and right *attitude*. We need partnerships and not sparring rings.

 :Whistling:

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tec0 (01-Sep-13)

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## tec0

> No one opens a business to screw employees. You want employees who can do the job better than you without hassles and then pay them a fair wage for that.
> 
> You don't want employees who do the bare minimum or less then still come late, or better still don't come to work when there is a job for a customer which has a deadline and they are sick. Who carries that can the employer. 
> 
> So how do you manage that?
> You try and hire the right employees first, then you look at automating the process. 
> 
> What I would love is both sides looking for the win-win situation that when it happens is great, but that does not happen enough! Instead we have the 'rights' of employees being abused because you want a fair days work for a fair days wage. If employees constantly look for ways to trip up the employer to go to CCMA or rip them off! Read Think and grow rich  that works.
> 
> ...


I agree with you completely. 

However this is not about employer employee relations. This is about what is right and what is wrong. 

Example if someone pretend to be a bookkeeper and you pay them money do do your books and you find out she/he is not a bookkeeper you will not be happy about it.  :Mad: 

The same is true for the IQ Test it is not the same as testing to see if someone can do a job or not.* I personally have no problem if you want to give a employee a practical challenge to see if the employee can or cannot do the job lets be clear about this. You as the employer have the right to higher combatant people.*

This is what I am trying to get too. If you offer a customer a *service* that you are not qualified to do then what are you doing exactly? You are testing people as a SERVICE that they are paying you for! But you do not do it the right way? Why are they paing you then as a customer? THINK ABOUT THAT IT IS THE SAME AS THE BOOKKEEPER Example!

Thus you need to have the right people doing the test. Otherwise you may not give the SERVICE because you have no legal right to give people the test to start with as a SERVICE. 

Now the IQ test is intended to test people right as a service before they can continue. This was stated here on this thread in black and white depending on your settings and that is the problem that they FAIL TO SEE.

They want to make it into something else and try to make me look stupid. The reality is if you are not qualified to give people a service especially if it is governed then you have to ask yourself a serious question. 

What service am I providing my customer? Is that service legal? Must I not get the right people to do it?  

YES the employer has the right to hire whom ever he wants. It was never about that! 

It is about providing a service Legally VS Illegally that is what this is about.

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## HR Solutions

> YES the employer has the right to hire whom ever he wants. It was never about that!


Really ? !

Great then we agree  :Smile: 

Good night hope everyone has a good night.  :Smile:

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## tec0

Right: 




> Thank you very much guys .  We are not sure if we need an IQ test or an aptitude test.  Would this be suitable for an aptitude test to see if people are perhaps suited to sales for eg.





> Thank you very much.  I am trying to narrow down exactly what I need.  Is there a test that can pick up dyslexia ??





> Yes they do Ian, and yes some do get past the starting blocks.  But a lot of our work is done on a computer and an online package whereby you enter and work on candidates cv's on line, enter clients details etc, so they may have filled in a two page form correctly because they perhaps spent a few more minutes working on it, but then find out that she cannot spell correctly etc etc, either because she is rushed or they may be dyslexic etc etc.  So I am trying to find an online test whereby we can try to pick theses things up earlier.  have found some very basic ones which are not suitable because if you have half a brain cell for eg you can figure out the correct answers, so preferably need a test that can test Apptitude, dyslexia and IQ as well where we can test them at an interview stage.





> It doesn't Adrian, but what it does show you is if the person can spell, write, think a little, and work out basic maths.  And you can pick up if the person is dyslexic.





> Nope not wasting money on formal stuff.  My tests are fantastic and there will be no formal inquiry .  They are applying for a job !!!!
> 
> So many people think that its "discrimination" when you don't get a job, but the bottom line is you don't get the job because you CANT DO the job !


Clearly you wish to implement some tests to see if people are capable or not but you have no intention as seen here to do it the right way.

Now when this testing is done your customers will be provided with a list of possible employees. Thus you are preforming a service and your customers are paying you for this service. Now they may or may not be aware of your selection process but it doesn't change fact that by administering the tests that you are performing a service. 

This is not the same as giving an employee a practical challenge to see if they can do the job or not. 
The employer/customer can do that to see if the person is combatant but is not the same as the IQ test. It is NOT. 

All I am saying is think about what was stated here on this thread. Is this really the right way to do it? Is this the type of service you wish to give your customers?

Believe it or not I am actually trying to help you. Can you not see that what you are planning to do may not be ethical nor legal unless you do it the right way by enlisting the correct companies to do the job properly correctly.

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## adrianh

tec0 - some jobs require a higher than average IQ. The problem is that many people come along with many worthless certificates and one needs a way to see whether they are able to reason. Computer programming is a prime example, the fact that a person passes a basic course in a particular programming language does not mean that the person can think for themselves. I saw it over and over, even with graduates, some people can think and some people cannot. If HR puts out an ad for a job and he gets 500 responses he needs to have ways to find the best candidate, in reality there may be 100 people of the 500 suitable to do the job. The employer does not have the time or money or inclination to test 100 people,  they want 5 at most, further; they want the best 5. Why would HR send 5 at random, he needs tools to be able to determine which ones are the best 5 and one of the tools happen to be IQ tests.

Ok, lets turn the situation on its head, you need a guy to work in your workshop for one day. You go to the local street corner and you let them know that you need a guy, 100 people surround you begging for a job. Clearly many of them can do the workut some of them can't speak english, some are very agressive, some look disinterested. So what do you do,, you cant take 100 people home to see if they can do the work, you quickly devise a plan to weed out the ones that are unsuitable, you dont want the ones that dont understand a word you are saying, you dont want the lazy ones, you dont want the ones that have never worked in a workshop etc. So you ask them question, you ask them whether they can weld, you ask them whether they have built anything before, you ask them simple arithemtic questions etc. The reason you ask all the question is because you need 1 person out of 100 to work for you and you dont have the time money or inclination to spend the entire day trsting 100 people to see whether they can do the work when administering a simple test will tell you which ones are clearly unsuitable.

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HR Solutions (02-Sep-13)

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## HR Solutions

> Believe it or not I am actually trying to help you.


Thanks so much for yor help tec ...

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## IanF

Teco
I am not going to get into a flaming war with you. But with the labour laws being so onerous on the employer they have to do a lot more screening before they hire anyone. Now you say some tests are illegal that may be. But if more obstacles and hoops to jump through are put in front of the the employer the less people they are going to employ. That is from my perspective. 

I hope I write for everyone on this thread that we accept that you say IQ tests are illegal, lets move on from that and give constructive  ideas on how to screen new employees.

Teco one trait which you show is tenacity which is good for a sales job, for your next job I suggest you look in that direction.

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## HR Solutions

> Teco
> I am not going to get into a flaming war with you. But with the labour laws being so onerous on the employer they have to do a lot more screening before they hire anyone. Now you say some tests are illegal that may be. But if more obstacles and hoops to jump through are put in front of the the employer the less people they are going to employ. That is from my perspective. 
> 
> I hope I write for everyone on this thread that we accept that you say IQ tests are illegal, lets move on from that and give constructive  ideas on how to screen new employees.
> 
> Teco one trait which you show is tenacity which is good for a sales job, for your next job I suggest you look in that direction.


Thanks Ian - yes you do definitely write for me as well.  And yes I agree, we have had the flaming war already with tec, but he insists on carrying it on.  Move on man, if you would like to think you are right then so be it !

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## adrianh

HR - you did prove the need to use IQ tests as a measure of reasoning ability beyond a reasonable doubt - just think of the cost savings on flame suits!  :Chair:

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## Citizen X

> Right: 
> Clearly you wish to implement some tests to see if people are capable or not but you have no intention as seen here to do it the right way.
> 
> Now when this “testing is done” your customers will be provided with a list of possible employees. Thus you are preforming a “service” and your customers are paying you for this service. Now they may or may not be aware of your selection process but it doesn't change fact that by administering the tests that you are performing a service. 
> 
> This is not the same as giving an employee a practical challenge to see if they can do the job or not. 
> The employer/customer can do that to see if the person is combatant but is not the same as the IQ test. It is NOT. 
> 
> All I am saying is think about what was stated here on this thread. Is this really the right way to do it? Is this the type of service you wish to give your customers?
> ...


Good morning gentlepeople,
 :Wink: 
Trusting that you well on this rather nippy second day of Spring(here in the South at least). You guys all defend your positions with passion, that’s commendable!

Call it academic curiosity or test by ability in practice, then, I think Tec0 makes a pretty good as well as damning case.

I simply must give him due on the points he has raised and the manner in which he then motivated his position. I also admire his ability to provide well-reasoned arguments.

_One can at times do a stunning thing in the moment and turn an argument towards a complete different trajectory_!

The grass roots of it is that one has many a misconception when the term ‘Marxist,’ is used, it associated with no regard for religion[Even Stalin legalised Churches and other religious organisations during the war], status and money. This is further confused by the manner in which the erstwhile Soviet Union implemented its understanding of communism. They were privy to the writings of Karl Marx, but could never comprehend that Marx himself would have been disgusted at the manner in which they implemented a system based on true equality and common good.

It’s actually his influence which led to labour movements and eventually statutory provisions regarding all aspects of the employee. The State acknowledged that they too are a contender in that they too have staff! It has become common cause that this our current South African economy requires a vast labour force and do any other similar economic system.

Marx unfortunately never left a plan for an ideal Marxist State. He focused extensively on what he called ‘division of labour,’ and ‘specialisation.’ Besides his many other writings, though impressive but not practically useful as he was a philosopher, and thus done a stunning job of looking at a society from the perspective of its many millions.

Our South African labour history is very fascinating, the ‘employee,’ has demonstrated the great lengths he is willing to go to in in-order to make his dispute of right or socio economic demand known. Our South African labour force have demonstrated something that no one, including the Unions, could have ever anticipated in time or even close to the time, that is, how powerful in practical this energy among such a large number of people would flow. Many unions members have revoked their very own Union’s mandate towards them and embarked unprecedented levels of labour unrest.

The pivotal thing though that makes all our Labour Laws so entrenched is the very existence of our Constitution of 1996. Our Constitution is the supreme of our land and any law and/or conduct which is inconsistent with it will be declared invalid.
The Constitution endorses our various Labour Legislation and promotes its implementation.
Discrimination was at the heart of our previous system so both the interim and the final Constitution sought to rid our society of this plague.
The central idea was not to actually discriminate on any arbitrary or frivolous ground.


 The question is not actually whether communism worked, its more one of: is capitalism working? We must concede to economic implosions in the last 100 years and the impact , including the last one has had on the world.
My final position is that if it were not for Marx, one could possibly even have a current situation where a woman to allowed one day off to give birth and report diligently to work to next day or face summary dismissal.
The latest amendment to the Labour Relations Act speaks to this move to entrench the Constitutional supreme stipulation to the right to fair labour practices, the right not to be discriminated against, and the right not to be unfairly dismissed.

By mere fact that an ‘applicant for employment,’ now enjoys so many commonly held rights with commonly utilized legal remedies and how the South African Human Rights Commission is reacted to matters of similar nature, I can see how our everyday South African now has the right to voice his disregard for certain conduct and bahaviour

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tec0 (02-Sep-13)

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## HR Solutions

> I simply must give him due on the points he has raised and the manner in which he then motivated his position. I also admire his ability to provide well-reasoned arguments.


Oh do you ?? So calling people ass**holes in previous threads is ok ?  Personally it loses all credibility and people then just ignore the individual !

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## Citizen X

> Oh do you ?? So calling people ass**holes in previous threads is ok ? Personally it loses all credibility and people then just ignore the individual !


I can only reasonably comment on what i'm currently seeing or what is currently at hand in this thread. To cross reference with any other trend will be an exhaustive exercise for anyone!

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tec0 (02-Sep-13)

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## HR Solutions

> I can only reasonably comment on what i'm currently seeing or what is currently at hand in this thread. To cross reference with any other trend will be an exhaustive exercise for anyone!


lol ...That is very two faced don't you think ? Because you do exactly that when it suits you !

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## tec0

> Oh do you ?? So calling people ass**holes in previous threads is ok ?  Personally it loses all credibility and people then just ignore the individual !


Yes I did get angry, partly because I couldn't get trough to you and partly due to your arrogance and attitude. You just want to do whatever you want to do and for the most part that doesn't bother anyone. 

The reality however is you are not undeserving. You really did push it this time. But I digress, as explained before this is not about evaluation every company has the right to do so that is why it is called a "*probation period*" if you Google it you will find that the CCMA does allow for it as long as it is within reason. So really this was never the argument. 

Example: A bookkeeper comes to you and you hire them only to find out that they are not legally registered. Obviously you will be upset and may even take legal action. The same is true if a bogus college certify people with bogus papers. There is simply no justification to do any type of testing or provide any service illegally. Any employer have the legal right to give an employee a "probation period" thus allowing for proper evaluation both on there skill and mental capability. 

However if you wish to test people beforehand then you need to do it the right way. I understand you only want to deliver the best for your customer. But you must understand that you also have a responsibility towards your customers. If they asked you how the tests was done? How can you look them in the eye and answer them?

And for the record you called me far worst things then just an "a$$hole" 

So really HR you are not innocent. The truth is these people don't know you as I know you. 

Right I am done now.

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## HR Solutions

"Right" so BYE then ...

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## Dave A

> Nope not wasting money on formal stuff.  My tests are fantastic...


I took that part as made pretty much with tongue-in-cheek, actually. But it's a molehill that has grown into a mountain, by the looks of things.




> The latest amendment to the Labour Relations Act speaks to this move to entrench the Constitutional supreme stipulation to the right to fair labour practices, the right not to be ??? discriminated against, and the right not to be unfairly dismissed.


I think you left out "unfairly" - the Constitution does, after all, provide for *"fair"* discrimination (the precise definition of which is, of course, in the eye of the beholder - and is ultimately in no small part the cause of this fracas).

I have to say my initial reaction to the presence of a piece of legislation that describes IQ tests in employment screening practices as unfair discrimination was that it was probably first proposed by a moron. That definitely was thought tongue-in-cheek in case anyone's wondering - but it did lead me to wonder: 

What's the average IQ of the members of our national parliament at the moment?

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## adrianh

I would think that the average IQ of a member of parliment today would somewhere between that of an eggplant and a raddish.

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## tec0

> I took that part as made pretty much with tongue-in-cheek, actually. But it's a molehill that has grown into a mountain, by the looks of things.
> 
> I think you left out "unfairly" - the Constitution does, after all, provide for *"fair"* discrimination (the precise definition of which is, of course, in the eye of the beholder - and is ultimately in no small part the cause of this fracas).
> 
> I have to say my initial reaction to the presence of a piece of legislation that describes IQ tests in employment screening practices as unfair discrimination was that it was probably first proposed by a moron. That definitely was thought tongue-in-cheek in case anyone's wondering - but it did lead me to wonder: 
> 
> What's the average IQ of the members of our national parliament at the moment?


What I was trying to get at before I got so angry I couldn't think was this. You cannot provide a service as a service if you are not qualified to do so. This was never about employer employee discrimination. They have nothing to do with this. 

This is about offering a service and within that service the service provider acts unlawfully to complete the task. A simple example would be if a car mechanic pretends to be a doctor. Obviously it is not going to end well nor does the mechanic have the right credentials. 

Now I tried to communicate this fact over and over again. But all is lost. See mister HR believes he has the right to screen Individuals even before they get to the interview stage. Now the tests as far as I can tell was downloaded so in that respect how legitimate is the test? Does he or his personal administer the test correctly? Is the test even up to standard? Was the individuals informed what the test is and what will happen if they fail the test? Lastly but most importantly how credible was the test to begin with?   

I know it sound stupid but his customers are paying him a sum of money. Now I would imagine these customers expect him to act lawfully in his respective processes? Where the customer informed to begin with? 

That is my argument... 

I am well aware that any employer have the right to give the new employee some tasks to proof themselves. This is only fair and I understand why it is necessary because any employee is an investment and must be able to preform there duties.

But if companies wishes to condone this type of behaviour, then really there is nothing I or anyone can do. However that said what is the point then of any grading system?  

Now I know I pushed this to far but in my defence HR knew exactly where to hit me and he knew that I would eventually react.

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## HR Solutions

You should really go into consulting.  You could advise companies how to run their businesses and how to do things because you seem to know it all.

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## adrianh

> I am well aware that any employer have the right to give the new employee some tasks to proof themselves. This is only fair and I understand why it is necessary because any employee is an investment and must be able to preform there duties.



What part of: No employer wants to test 100 prospective employees don't you understand. The agent is hired to weed them out to 3 or so. If the employer wanted to waste his own time he would not hire an agent in the first place. 

damn dude....is it so hard to understand?

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## Dave A

> This is about offering a service and within that service the service provider acts unlawfully to complete the task. A simple example would be if a car mechanic pretends to be a doctor. Obviously it is not going to end well nor does the mechanic have the right credentials. 
> 
> Now I tried to communicate this fact over and over again. But all is lost.


Oh - I'm pretty sure the message got through. I certainly got it, and I'm sure many more besides. That's probably why no-one is arguing against your point.

However, the point itself doesn't prove that HR Solutions is "a mechanic pretending to be a doctor." And repetition of the point isn't going to change that either.

What HR related qualifications exist within the HR Solutions organisation?
How do they administer these tests?
What process have they followed in developing these tests?

Fact is, you don't know. At best you are making assumptions based on your personal experience of employment practices elsewhere, and a few lines of text posted on a website, all of which is very far from providing a complete picture.

I'm afraid the news gets worse before it gets better.

*Even if you are right* in your assumptions, you need to understand the harsh realities of influencing change, and lean into them if you wish to be a meaningful change agent.

No-one enjoys being told they are wrong (or doing it wrong etc.).
It is, however, tolerable to *discover* you are wrong.

When you are *told* you are wrong, it is perceived as an attack and the kneejerk reaction is to defend what you are doing.
When you *discover* that you are wrong, people are far more likely to proactively make changes.

So what are you trying to achieve here?
I don't need an answer - I just would like you to really think about it.

Of course we all love being recognised when we're right. Again, the bad news is in life most times you are not going to get *any* recognition. In fact most times you get no feedback at all.

This is not a problem. When people are silent, there's a fair chance they're thinking.
And when they're thinking, there's a fair chance of change.

Or they don't understand, but enough going down this rabbit hole already  :Stick Out Tongue:

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## HR Solutions

> What part of: No employer wants to test 100 prospective employees don't you understand. The agent is hired to weed them out to 3 or so. If the employer wanted to waste his own time he would not hire an agent in the first place. 
> 
> damn dude....is it so hard to understand?


lol ... Adrian, its like when your mother used to nag you and carry on when you were young - you would just say yes Ma...
So I don't even read some of the long posts and just agree and say "whatever" , "sure you're right" ,"if you say so"




> Oh - I'm pretty sure the message got through. I certainly got it, and I'm sure many more besides. That's probably why no-one is arguing against your point.


As Dave just said  :Smile: 




> What HR related qualifications exist within the HR Solutions organisation?
>  How do they administer these tests?
>  What process have they followed in developing these tests?
> 
>  Fact is, you don't know. At best you are making assumptions based on your personal experience of employment practices elsewhere, and a few lines of text posted on a website, all of which is very far from providing a complete picture.


Thank You so much Dave  :Smile:

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## adrianh

@HR - now here is a scary thought - consider that 99% of the masses are also into "alternative logic" I clearly remember attending a meeting with a couple of union shop stewards many years ago when I was working at De Beers and what struck me is that the act of hearing, listening, understanding and then having a rational discussion was totally lost on them. No matter what anybody said it would be bent to suit their perception of what they thought they were hearing. I can only imagine such people playing tennis, no matter where you serve the ball they would simply stand there dumbfounded and throw rocks back at you. Kinda difficult to play tennis with people who either refuse to, or are unable to engage the ball that is in play.

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## HR Solutions

> @HR - now here is a scary thought - consider that 99% of the masses are also into "alternative logic" I clearly remember attending a meeting with a couple of union shop stewards many years ago when I was working at De Beers and what struck me is that the act of hearing, listening, understanding and then having a rational discussion was totally lost on them. No matter what anybody said it would be bent to suit their perception of what they thought they were hearing. I can only imagine such people playing tennis, no matter where you serve the ball they would simply stand there dumbfounded and throw rocks back at you. Kinda difficult to play tennis with people who either refuse to, or are unable to engage the ball that is in play.



lol Adrian yes that is VERY scary.  I would imagine absolutely NOTHING would get done.  They would spend all their time arguing/negotiating.

Alternative logic only works up to a point.  You then have to be able to reason, discuss and agree.  You cannot carry on and on and on and on and on... It is like killing a horse and then spending the next few days beating the thing with a pole to make sure it is dead and to try to teach it a lesson that you think you have WON.

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## Dave A

Please bear in mind the flip side is also true - we don't have a full grasp of tec0's experience in these things either (other than a sense that they've been less than optimal).

The only way we get to "everyone's a winner" is when we play the ball and not the man. Let everyone learn and adjust in their own time and in their own space.

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## HR Solutions

Yep in this case I have kicked the ball far out into touch.

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## pmbguy

@Dave A – I think you hired tec0 to stir the pot, or somebody is on the pot, actually missing the pot altogether and pooing a little bit on the forum floor.

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## HR Solutions

> @Dave A – I think you hired tec0 to stir the pot, or somebody is on the pot, actually missing the pot altogether and pooing a little bit on the forum floor.


Yep or its maybe his brother or something.

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## Dave A

:No:

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## adrianh

> @Dave A – I think you hired tec0 to stir the pot, or somebody is on the pot, actually missing the pot altogether and pooing a little bit on the forum floor.


I nearly spat my coke all over my laptop laughing when I read this

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## IanF

Guys we need Teco here he has a different slant on things which makes me look twice at his replies. It would get boring if we all thought the same way.
 :Console:

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## pmbguy

> It would get boring if we all thought the same way.


True

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## Citizen X

Dear gentle people :Wink: ,
I would like to impress upon you that I am a team player! Since there is no face to face communication with online communities, it’s possible that I may come across as arrogant!
*Please overlook this!* I genuinely only want to help and clarify issues that are bound to affect someone somewhere :Stick Out Tongue: .

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HR Solutions (03-Sep-13)

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## adrianh

Ag nonsense man, you just want us to buy mags & tires from your cousin in Lanasia :-)

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## pmbguy

You know what Vanash I personally have never seen you as arrogant, quite the opposite, I think you very polite and diplomatic. When you clarify matters you do so in a very technical and analytical manner :Detective:  I can see you a lawyer
I am a little bit puzzled over post, you did not have to do it, but it shows you a good guy 
If you sound arrogant on TFSA given the “no face to face” factor then I’m a brut and tyrant of biblical proportions, snarling and snorting.

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Citizen X (03-Sep-13)

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## AustinBert

Pmbguy you are just awesome with your sharing...!
it was new to me too see a whole team working specially I.Q checking project..!
Keep it up dude, well done...!

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pmbguy (02-Oct-13)

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## pmbguy

> Pmbguy you are just awesome with your sharing...!
> it was new to me too see a whole team working specially I.Q checking project..!
> Keep it up dude, well done...!


Thank you for your kind words dear Albert. In return may I bless you by wishing you a wonderful day. God bless you.

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