# Interest group forums > Electrical Contracting Industry Forum >  COC filled in example

## ELECT 1

I have seen quite alot of COC's filled in. Everyone has some errors, some parts not completed, a common error is the difference between a registered person and a licenced installation electrician.
By this i mean your company or name registered with the DOL. Then also your wiremans licence no. Confusion on the COC to where it must go....
Then , they ask you for your readings,, then your meter's name that you used......is this relevant''
You then have to fill in your name and address in a few places, which is a schlep.
I notice some contractors skip out a lot of that Yadda and just stamp it once with their company stamp...this contains all the contact info.
But then they havent completed all the other blocks...hmm...The inspectors recon this is fraudulent and COC isnt legal.
Lawyers recon, well you say the job is legal, on the yellow paper , you signed it, you are responsible for it.

So to the powers that be, it would be nice to get a simple PDF copy of a correctly filled in COC of a 220v home and a COC of a 380v home for an example. I have used a domestic situation so as to keep it simple. You can put fictitious name and address in.
Yours  ELECT1

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## Houses4Rent

I have no industry knowledge, but I always maintained that the COC is in most cases not worth the paper its printed on.

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## mikilianis

Houses4Rent I wont start but I assume to you  "cheapest"  is best,and corners are there for cutting

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## Houses4Rent

Hi mikilianes

Not at all. I just think that many certificates are not done properly and the layman like me never knows. I saw a few when buying my 6 properties and soemtimes even when my clienst buy and I had a hinch that they were all not that well. But since the regulations change so often they expire shortly thereafter anyway.

I only have one personal experience. I had an small extension built by an informal builder and needed an COC. Real simple a few sockets and 3 light points. The one electrician said instatllation was not done correctly and this and that needs to be done. The next electrician issued the COC without hesitation. So who is right and who is worng? I wil probaby never know, but as long as I have the COC I did my duty. And yes, I know it can only be issued by people with the right wireman qualification, not any electrician.

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## ELECT 1

> Hi mikilianes
> 
> Not at all. I just think that many certificates are not done properly and the layman like me never knows. I saw a few when buying my 6 properties and soemtimes even when my clienst buy and I had a hinch that they were all not that well. But since the regulations change so often they expire shortly thereafter anyway.
> 
> I only have one personal experience. I had an small extension built by an informal builder and needed an COC. Real simple a few sockets and 3 light points. The one electrician said instatllation was not done correctly and this and that needs to be done. The next electrician issued the COC without hesitation. So who is right and who is worng? I wil probaby never know, but as long as I have the 
> 
> COC I did my duty. And yes, I know it can only be issued by people with the right wireman qualification, not any electrician.



I hate to tell you, that you as the property owner are liable for your property. You got to make sure that the COC that you are given is not a fraudulent one , because if your house burns down the insurance might say that your installation didnt comply and we will only pay out X instead of Y. You will then have to sort it out with the guy that certified your property, even to take him to court..
Its not as easy as you think.
Small stuff can be rectified relatively inexpensively, but larger stuff can really hurt one pocket.

A valueless piece of paper is just that. 
But you aren't on your own, thousands of people are in the same boat.

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## Justloadit

> But you aren't on your own, thousands of people are in the same boat.


They said that the Titanic could not sink, it took a lot of souls with. The fact that we are all on the same boat does not make it go away.

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## ELECT 1

> They said that the Titanic could not sink, it took a lot of souls with. The fact that we are all on the same boat does not make it go away.


Cant argue with your statement.

I have always said, this certificate of compliance should have been discussed with all the roll players.
But the powers that be just went a head , discussed it with their mates , and now look what we sit with.

The installation either complies, or doesn't. But most use the criteria is it reasonably safe. This is open to many different opinions, and can be manipulated to suit ones needs........
My rant now over

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## Houses4Rent

> I hate to tell you, that you as the property owner are liable for your property. You got to make sure that the COC that you are given is not a fraudulent one


I have no problems that is my property and I am responsible to the best of my ability. And I think most people have no idea that not any sparky can issue a COC. So I a might be already light years ahead. However, how is Joe Blogs supposed to recognize a fraudulent COC then? One can take a good lock, maybe check out whether the issuer is registered and authorised at a push, but anything beyond that is unreasonable to expect. After all a so call professional has be hired to do professional work. One cannot be expected to know everything and to verify everything. 

If I but a property I believe the onus to make sure all is above board before transfer is the sellers.

If I go to a bank and get cash out of their hands I have reasnable expectations that I do not get false notes from them. Would you not?

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## ELECT 1

> I have no problems that is my property and I am responsible to the best of my ability. And I think most people have no idea that not any sparky can issue a COC. So I a might be already light years ahead. However, how is Joe Blogs supposed to recognize a fraudulent COC then? One can take a good lock, maybe check out whether the issuer is registered and authorised at a push, but anything beyond that is unreasonable to expect. After all a so call professional has be hired to do professional work. One cannot be expected to know everything and to verify everything. 
> 
> 
> If I but a property I believe the onus to make sure all is above board before transfer is the sellers.
> 
> If I go to a bank and get cash out of their hands I have reasnable expectations that I do not get false notes from them. Would you not?



Like the way you think :Stick Out Tongue:

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## Dave A

> I hate to tell you, that you as the property owner are liable for your property. You got to make sure that the COC that you are given is not a fraudulent one , because...





> I have no problems that is my property and I am responsible to the best of my ability. And I think most people have no idea that not any sparky can issue a COC. So I a might be already light years ahead. However, how is Joe Blogs supposed to recognize a fraudulent COC then?


Even EThekwini municipality doesn't believe it has a responsibility to ensure that the COC submitted to connect a new electrical installation isn't fraudulent; or even check that it's properly filled out judging by the one case I've had a look at during last week.

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## skatingsparks

Its the old problem that most people don't know (and generally don't care) if its done properly.  I recently quoted on a job which had 50 plus DB boards over 400 circuit breakers and I would estimate 2500 points.  Now even if you allow conservative 30 minutes a circuit, to find it test all the points on it  (30 x 400), to write down the results and fill in the alllll that paper work your looking at about 4 weeks (5 days a week, 9 hours a day), and that is even a conservative estimate because its not a standard install, its really complex with UPS boards, generator boards, normal supplies and even a solar array to deal with, in a working building.  A licensed electrician an assistant for a month is expensive.  Or they could get some dude who will walk through the building counting the points and maybe doing a earth fault loop test here and there and they can crash it out in a 3 days (takes a long time even to bulls^%$ that many test results and fill in COC's).

I don't think there is enough space on COC's for all the things you should be testing.  Yes you can add extra sheets but on the yellow form itself there is only one little box for 'resistance of earth continuity conductor'  One little box for operation earth leakage (there could be quite a few, especially in a 3 phase board with socket circuit spread over 3 phases).  

I think you should be made to put your test results down then that would cover everyone.  I can say "The day I tested it it was this value", and using some basic maths you should be able to calculate if its right if ever a problem arose.  You would be signing for all the test results not just the few that get squeezed into the boxes on the COC.  If a COC was ever contested you could do the test again and compare the results to what are on the test results issued with the COC.  Yes voltages fluctuate a little but earth continuity won't change to much.

Just an idea....

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ELECT 1 (03-Apr-14), ians (10-Apr-14)

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## Sparks

:Big Grin:  VIVA new SA, no more onbudsman, just DIY and some sod will pay you to do his house because you cheaper than the rest, VIVA new SA

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## ians

If only someone who knew what they where doing could design a COC for the industry and have a document for each industry, domestic, commercial and another for industrial. A basic computerised document which has add ons for industry specific and additional equipment DBs etc.

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## ians

Dave they do check the COCs, well enough said. I witnessed a contractor who forgot to fill in the test results, while waiting for something to get sorted out. The fella went to the counter filled it in and handed in again. Lekker when you know what the results "should" be  :Wink:

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## skatingsparks

Just write down ALL test results.  Yes people will say "that will take ages" but if your testing like you are supposed to be then yes it takes ages.  That's why it costs, you pay for someone time to do it properly and with a full set of test results signed off, you are accountable and the electrician is covered, assuming he hasn't made them up.  If he made them up and there is problem he has those signed off/made up (delete applicable) to come to back to which will either burying him(if he made them up) or cover him (if they were tested the right way).

Have folders full of scribbled down test results in my own test sheet which I have kept just in case.  The info you put on the COC is not enough.  You just put in the worst case scenario for earth continuity?  What good is that.  If there was ever any dispute I don't think you would remember at what point you tested for that single number.  Also with Eskom messing around with things I have had an incoming earth vanish after they dug up the road to connect a new supply and didn't reconnect properly.  Careful what you sign people....  It's like signing a document when all the terms and conditions are not checked.

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## Sparks

> Just write down ALL test results.  
> 
> Have folders full of scribbled down test results in my own test sheet which I have kept just in case.  The info you put on the COC is not enough.  You just put in the worst case scenario for earth continuity?  What good is that.  If there was ever any dispute I don't think you would remember at what point you tested for that single number.  Also with Eskom messing around with things I have had an incoming earth vanish after they dug up the road to connect a new supply and didn't reconnect properly.  Careful what you sign people....  It's like signing a document when all the terms and conditions are not checked.


That's the way to go skatingsparks. My COC does not get to site. I have my own spreadsheet which I fill in and then when at my desk I complete the COC which then stays clean and presentable. I keep my spreadsheets with all my readings on an external drive. A COC takes long to complete and the smell and filth in some places are such that I don"t want to waste time there completing the COC. Earth continuity readings at all points of consumption are recorded not only because they should be but also to cover myself as you said. I also make notes of any recommendations I have made based on what I find on the site. Besides the photographic records I keep

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## Justloadit

Sparks, How long do you keep the records?

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## Dave A

> Sparks, How long do you keep the records?


We had one late last year where it was as well we'd kept our records of the previous test... done in 2005.

I'm not convinced it made any difference to issues of liability, but it certainly settled the argument in short order.

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## Sparks

Because I store them on an external drive I will have them pretty much indefinitely. I keep my spreadsheet, photos and a scanned copy of the actual COC. I don"t have those from when I started out any more due to PC crashing but I learnt from it and now keep it on external drives

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## gobbleteller

Sparks,

You should also maybe look into storing your COC data online, for example with IDrive where you get a free 5G account into which you can store all these. An external drive doesn't ensure your data is safe for ever. Cloud storage is the new way of storing your important data. Even if you are using a 3G modem to connect to the internet, documents are quite small in relation to movies or music and so it wont deplete your data bundle. Just a thought...

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## Justloadit

The cloud box will become small once you start loading and pictures that may be taken, so bear this in mind.

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## Sparks

Gobbleteller, I am aware of a few ways to store info online, however, I am still skeptical regarding security and availability. I am also suspicious of people who hound me to use their online storage. One of the online storage sites was recommended to me so I registered in order to find out more. I never stored anything there but was getting mail urging me to use it and then later I was given more free storage because of my "support". I am fortunate in that I have uncapped access to the web so uploading is not a problem. My main concerns are security and as I said availability. I have always set my gmail to retain a copy of all mail on the server. Unfortunately years of mail just disappeared.

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## AndyD

Cloud storage is not as reliable as many would have you believe, there's been several very large cloud storage companies who've have been forcibly closed and/or had their servers seized or been forced to close down because of copyrighted material being on their systems. If this happens you won't get your data back.

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Sparks (23-Apr-14)

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## Sparks

Thank you for confirming my fears Andy.

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## mikep

Hello,
Has anyone managed to get a PDF copy of a correctly filled in COC?

Thanks
Mike

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## Sparks

I put one at https://www.dropbox.com/s/dd1ff00708...AMPLE.pdf?dl=0 
I think I covered all the raised questions. I have highlighted in yellow and commented in red.
The rest is self explanatory, but then again I am accustomed to it so, should you have further queries, feel free to post them.

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## maseral

I am just curious I have seen people issue a COC without electrical power especially for new buildings for Eskom to put new transformer.Can it be done and what about the readings that requires power do they just put n/a ?

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## Sparks

Maseral if there is no supply, you obviously cannot put readings pertaining to the supply in and may make note of that. However, tests which do need power for must be provided with temporary power so that those readings may be obtained.

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## maseral

Hi Sparks I've just seen a post where you you said Eskom just want to see the size of the main breaker they'll be connecting power to...not those readings

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## Sparks

Maseral each situation is evaluated according to it's own merits. What exactly do you want to know. There is much more power available than you require and you also pay more for the more you ask for. Before they connect they need to know your requirements. They also need to know that once they switch it on their equipment will not sustain damage.

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