# Social Category > South African Politics Forum >  Gupta Wedding: Blue lights brigade

## Citizen X

The Gupta’s are coming to town! Apparently, allegedly, early today, supposed friends and family of Gupta arrived at the waterkloof Airbase and were escourted by a Blue Light Brigade..
1. Did the Gupta family hire the Waterkloof Air Base? Is Gupta allowed to hire Waterkloof Airbase?
2. Did the Gupta family declare all their relevant items on arrival?
3. Is the Blue Light Brigade(VIP protection and police) allowed to escort a private family to a wedding?

4. Is your tax money paying for this private family to be escourted as if they were a visting President of another country?
Why has the South African Defence Force allowed the Guptas to use this base and why are they being given special treatment such as police escorts and blue light brigade.

Keen to see how this story unravels! Thank goodness and thank God for our media

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## Blurock

First signs of a failed state; entitlement, corruption, benefits for friends.... :Frown:

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## Citizen X

> First signs of a failed state; entitlement, corruption, benefits for friends....


As far as I'm concerned the Guptas are just fellow South Africans and are not entitled to any special treament by Government, yes, visiting Presidents, dignataries and diplomats are a different story!

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## Citizen X

“Gupta family gets royal escort”[1]

*“*JOHANNESBURG - The Department of Defence on Tuesday says it did not grant permission to any private citizen to use the Waterkloof Air Force Base. 
The department's Siphiwe Dlamini told *Eyewitness News*: “It is a national key point and its usage is for state visitors exclusively. I can confirm that permission for usage for a private citizen has not been granted.” 
In a statement released this morning the Gupta family said the base was used with the full permission of the relevant authorities.
The statement claimed the "permissions were applied for and granted to the Indian High Commission and not the family".
Earlier, *Eyewitness News* learnt the Gupta family used the air base outside Pretoria to fly in relatives and dignitaries from India. 
Dozens of Gupta family members arrived earlier to attend a wedding at Sun City this week. Vega Gupta (23) is the daughter of Achla, the Gupta brothers' only sister.
The Guptas are close allies of President Jacob Zuma.
Police Flying Squad and VIP protection unit cars could be seen escorting dozens of white Range Rovers out of the Waterkloof Air Force Base.
*EWN* spotted a large convoy with sirens and lights flashing speeding on the N1 North highway, ushering motorists out of the way.
It is understood the Guptas have chartered several private jets to fly family to South Africa for a wedding.
It is unclear at this stage why the South African National Defence Force (SANDF) has allowed the family to use the air force base, and why the police are providing a personal escort service.
Atul Gupta was at the base earlier and told *EWN* he would grant an interview later. 
Members of the public who noticed the blue-light brigade leaving the Waterkloof Air Force Base told *EWN* what they saw a "a black BMW that looked like members of government and police".
“We were driving behind them; there were about 13 vehicles, and we saw them take the Sun City off-ramp," one person said.*”*


[1]B Bateman B & Nicolaides G. Gupta family gets royal escort. http://ewn.co.za/2013/04/30/Gupta-family-gets-royal-SA-escort. Accessed 30 April 2013

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## Citizen X

The plot thickens!

“SA: Statement by Haranath Ghosh, Gupta wedding spokesperson, on Gupta wedding guests arrival (30/04/2013”[1]
“It is indeed sad that 702 has chosen to misrepresent easily checkable facts without consideration of the damage it is doing to the Gupta family at a time it wants to celebrate a very important wedding. Waterkloof Air Force base was used with full permission of the authorities *to receive foreign dignitaries including some ministers.*
It is a conventional and common practice between countries *in receiving officials* from another state. Waterkloof was used as Lanseria airport could not accommodate the size of jet chartered by the family. The permissions were applied for and granted to the Indian High Commission and not the family. These rights can be applied for by any foreign embassy. Naturally suitable protocol was used to receive and transport the foreign ministers to the wedding.

All arrangements were done transparently and a simple call to the authorities by 702 would have clarified this”


*This still doesn’t answer* the question as to why Gupta friends and family were allowed to use the base. Foreign ministers, yes, but not private families.



[1] http://www.polity.org.za/article/sa-...013-2013-04-30

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## flaker

I think we should have just charged them 5 mil for use of the base. Small change for rich folks. & then thanked them for spending a further 10-20 mils during their stay here.

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## Blurock

WE do not have enough police to combat crime, but we have police available to escort a blue light brigade of Zuma's friends. Who pays for all of this? 

This is exactly the reason why the information bill had to be passed, so that the ANC can hide activities like this!  :Censored:

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## pmbguy

> WE do not have enough police to combat crime, but we have police available to escort a blue light brigade of Zuma's friends. Who pays for all of this? 
> 
> This is exactly the reason why the information bill had to be passed, so that the ANC can hide activities like this!


Its a cluster F****

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## Citizen X

This is very disturbing! All South Africans are equal, but it seems that for some, they are far superior that the ordinary citizen: US.

I love the media, they doing a sterling job! Let's see how investigative journalism unravels this one..

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## pmbguy

First that goes is freedom of speech, then the autonomy of the judicial system. 
My bad, this is happening...wait...how long can we speak about this...on this forum...?...


The current system will consume itself if left at its own devices.  And then greater powers will consume it.
Just hope the sun rises sooner than later

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## Citizen X

National key point?
Oh really? Helen Zille, a Premier was denied access to Inkandla, yet the family and friends of Gupta are allowed to land at a national Key point which is a military airbase!
I reiterate that such courtesies are extended to Ministers and dignitaries etc. It should never be extended to family of a South African citizen and such family is non-nationals.
This, in my opinion, was a threat to our National Security as non-nationals of another country who are civilians, don’t hold South African citizenship and are only the family and friends of Gupta get to be treated as visiting Ministers and are allowed to use a National Key point

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## Blurock

The military denied that they gave permission for the landing. So how could an aircraft that had no military clearance land at our primary air force base? Who was the air controller in charge and why did he/she give permission to land? Who was in command of the base and was there a dereliction of duties? Why were our jets not scrambled to protect the key point? Can any foreign power now fly in to Waterkloof and land at will?

Concerning the guests; did they go through customs and did the authorities check for contraband and "illegal imports". Did they declare their gifts and is there any import tax or duties payable on those items so imported?

It is clear that more than one rule or law had been broken here. Who is accountable, or was this an instruction from Zuma himself and nobody had the balls to tell him that there are procedures to follow. Will anyone take responsibility? Not likely...

My heart goes out to the minister of defence and the chief of the air force. In this world there are people that make things happen; those that watch things happen and those who have no clue of what's happening.

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## Justloadit

The fact that the defense force did not give permission to land, does not detract that they were instructed to allow the landings. 
There is a difference, I think that the reply to the media was a half sentence, the half which said they did not give the permission. The president has the final word here, and will trump any so called written laws/requirements..

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## IanF

What is sad to me about this whole saga is that the government/ANC will never release the whole story. They don't seem to care.
It is sad that the ANC is dragging us into being just another African basket case.

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## Citizen X

> What is sad to me about this whole saga is that the government/ANC will never release the whole story. They don't seem to care.


South Africa is watching!!!

The more I think about this, the more angry I become as an ordinary South African!

1. Even if there were Ministers from India on that plane, they were not here on official business i.e. diplomatic relations or discussions between South Africa and India, these Ministers were here to attend a private wedding of friends. These friends i.e. those who actually got married and their parents and uncles are ordinary South Africans like you and I; SA can’t roll out the red carpet and blue light brigade for ministers coming to attend a private function of a South African citizen! Who is this South African citizen that she needs such special treatment so as to infringe upon my and your safety and security by using a National Key point , a military airbase to accommodate her friends and family! 

2. Not everyone on that plane were ministers, they were non- nationals being treated as if they were visiting presidents from another country!

3. *All things been equal is the Government going to allow them to fly back from Waterkloof in the same way that they arrived?* I’m sincerely hoping not! They can stand in the queue and go through customs like all other people!

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Dave A (02-May-13)

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## Chrisjan B

The blue light brigade can escort the "guests" to OR Thambo then and see they safely got onboard....

Sent from my ASUS Transformer Pad TF300TG using Tapatalk 4 Beta

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## Blurock

So if Lesotho gets the silly idea to attack us, all they have to do is fly their troops to Waterkloof? It is close enough to the Union Buildings... :Stupid:

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## Dave A

One of the problems we seem to face is a difference of opinion over what a "generally corrupt relationship" might be.
Or whether having a generally corrupt relationship is even a problem.

I see that despite all the planning that must have gone into this, some things were missed - SARS wants to know why there weren't any customs officials present.
Just an accidental oversight, I'm sure  :Whistling:

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## Blurock

> One of the problems we seem to face is a difference of opinion over what a "generally corrupt relationship" might be.
> Or whether having a generally corrupt relationship is even a problem.
> 
> I see that despite all the planning that must have gone into this, some things were missed - SARS wants to know why there weren't any customs officials present.
> Just an accidental oversight, I'm sure


The reality that the current government is totally incompetent and not fit to run the country. Maybe its just the management or lack thereof, but I see no better candidates within their ranks.

The nScandla Republic is now moving from one scandal to the next; the arms deal, Marikana, Nkandla, Escom, the schools, toll gates, wide spread corruption, Petro SA, Waterkloof.... :Frown:

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## Didditmiself

Vanash, I called our SANDF a 'ragtag army' in a post a couple of months ago when news of the CAF deaths broke and others on the forum asked me what evidence do I have to support this? The fact that is if this had happened in another country (USA for example), the pilot of the aircraft would've been asked to identify themselves and if no suitable response was forthcoming, they would've probably been shot down since they were approaching a 'national keypoint'. We have a ragtag airforce too, it seems..... :Headbutt:

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## pmbguy

It is a serious matter of national security in the form of very poor security, and it is an intelligence nightmare. But thats how it is folks...

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## Dave A

It looks like one thing our government has mastered really well is the passing of hot potatoes...

Do you see anyone losing their job over this debacle?

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## Dave S

> Do you see anyone losing their job over this debacle?


Nope, but maybe someone will get to go on suspension at full pay in the Bahamas for about 4-years?

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## Blurock

The first head has rolled, while the commander in chief has left the country...

I am not holding my breath, or am I?  :Confused:

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## vieome

What we are witnessing is the same thing that happened in Zim, Zambia , Malawi. It is simply the death of Demo-crazy. 

Demo-crazy= Democracy is a means for the people to choose their leaders and to hold their leaders accountable for their policies and their conduct in office.

Step one fight for Majority Rule
Step two ignore the majority and move to one party state. 
Step three shut up the press
Step four shut down all opposition
Step five find someone to blame for your faults 
Step Six ensure it is not votes that count but he who counts the votes count
Step Seven Change rule of law to your rule

Rule forever and engage in full corruption, nepotism at the expense of the country. 


So what happens to the Majority as you witness the death of Demo-crazy
You might be going through this
The five stages of death
1.Denial(SA will never be like Zim)
2. Anger ( this is the stage we mostly at)
3. Bargaining (Okay steal what you want, but at least give 10% work for it)
4. Depression 
5. Acceptance( Get on with your own life, demcrazy is dead and you just have to accept it)

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Blurock (03-May-13)

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## IanF

The arrogance of this response riles me.*
*South Africans should be thankful for the investment the Gupta family is bringing to the country, businessman Atul Gupta said.



> Gupta said he did not understand why there was a concern about the landing of an aircraft chartered by the family at Waterkloof Air Force Base on Tuesday.
> 
> "I don't know what they want.... The airplane had permission. No airplane in the world can land without permission."
> 
> Several government departments have denied giving clearance for the jet to land at the base.
> 
> The departments have launched separate investigations into the matter. Times live link


A little humility goes a long way Mr. Gupta!

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## vieome

Sometimes organizations need to remove a really damaging news item from the public so they create a new news item to remove the old.
Strange how the this GUP ta story has made people forget about 
http://mg.co.za/article/2013-04-30-f...sit-to-mandela The GUP story wont damage them at the polls but the Nelson story would of.

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Dave A (07-May-13)

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## Citizen X

What is *name* of the Indian High Commissioner to South Africa who contacted Water-kloof Airbase?

Virendra *Gupta
*
Is there any family relationship to *Atul Gupta*?

I’m sure that this is just an innocent coincidence !!! :Confused:

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## Citizen X

> Sometimes organizations need to remove a really damaging news item from the public so they create a new news item to remove the old.
> Strange how the this GUP ta story has made people forget about 
> http://mg.co.za/article/2013-04-30-f...sit-to-mandela The GUP story wont damage them at the polls but the Nelson story would of.


This is a must see!

http://www.news24.com/Multimedia/Sou...dding-20130503

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## ians

It just proves when you got money and the right connections anything is possible, even hiring a military base in South Africa  :Cool: 

You all are just jealous  :Stick Out Tongue:

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## Dave S

@vieome, in the photo in the story, it is clear from body language that Mandela is not impressed, maybe it's the buffoon sitting next to him trying to hold his hand... Aye, politics sucks.

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## flaker

They're now calling it Guptagate!!!!!!!!!!!!

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## Dave S

I can appreciate a traditional Indian wedding, they are real pomp and ceremony with exceptional detail and colour, the only thing I don't like is the fact that the couple are chosen for each other, but they do not necessarily, choose each other...

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## flaker

Twitter copied & pasted

Tony Leon ‏@TonyLeonSA

"The Gupta Family should start an airline.It could eliminate airport & customs queues. The promise of 'fast track for all' would be a winner"

"Last word on Guptas: they have for the first time in our history created a unity of purpose between SACP, COSATU, ANC and DA. Many congrats"

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Citizen X (04-May-13)

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## ians

is this not a typical example of you scratch my back and I will return the favour some day.

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## Dave A

The higher you rise, the less freedom of personal choice you have.

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## Justloadit

It could be that a favour was called in, and it was obliged at great cost.

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## IanF

I just wonder have the Guptas fallen out with JZ and now will find out what Juluis M is going through?

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## ians

I am starting to wonder how connected Vivian ready is. Lots of rumours about him and to go from a little one man electrical company to be an empire in SA. All the talk about how Edison power got all the government contracts.

I think we are blind to what is actually going on around us.

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## Citizen X

> I think we are blind to what is actually going on around us.




Richard Poplak *Welcome to the Gupta wedding.* 

Richard Poplak briefs those lucky enough to have cracked an invite to the Gupta wedding on the arrival, the food, and what to buy the bridal pair 

You may not have heard, but according to a recent ANC statement, some wedding at Sun City is being hosted by some family. Many of the guests for the Gupta nuptials are coming from afar, and seeing that South Africa is a baffling place, it makes sense that theyd require a primer. After much deliberation, the_ Daily Maverick_ published a top-secret Gupta wedding memo handed out to all overseas attendees. 

Welcome, dearest guests, to the sunny shores of Guptastan, more commonly known in the global vernacular as South Africa. You have been flown here to celebrate the wedding of Vega Gupta to a very lucky young man whose name escapes us. And while you are probably aware that the land you now stand in functions as the Guptas private estate, there are some rules that must be adhered to in order not to upset the locals, who can be quite touchy. Please read the following memorandum carefully:
When the privately chartered Gupta Airways Wedding Express touches down, youll note that you are not alighting in a modern civilian airport, but on a military base. Dont worry ** this is not a mistake, as we have full use of all local army and air force facilities should we need them. Please do refrain from tipping the personnel you encounter on the ground ** they have recently returned from a combat mission in a nearby country, and may interpret your sudden movement as an act of aggression. PTSD can be so troublesome.
When you arrive at the nearby Sun City entertainment complex, youll notice the prevalence of casinos on the site. This is not meant as a cheeky reference as to how we view the South African economy. We promise.

Should you somehow injure a local on your drive over, or back into one with your golf cart, or in any way harm an indigenous person, do not panic. Please log into your Twitter account, write #Mayday plus your GPS co-ordinates, and make sure to include @guptaweddingcoverup.
In the classic Indian tradition, the nuptials will drag out over the course of four long days. Sun City has all the amenities for those who may not have the stamina for such events, such as spas, personalised valet services, and sturdy balcony rails from which to hang ones self.
As you may have read, the Guptas have in their employ numerous government ministers and bigwigs, not least of which the President of South Africa. They are not difficult to identify ** you will know officials and members of the ruling party by the bottles of Johnny Walker Blue they carry at all times.
When presenting a gift to the wedding party, please make sure to include your name on the _outside_ of the envelope. When presenting a gift to a government official, it is best not to include ones name at all.
Yes, all of the women at the Presidents table are his wives. Please do not make light of this ** whatever makes him happy makes us happy. Besides, weve learned a lot about wedding logistics from his various ceremonies.
In accordance with the custom of some of the guests present, a display of Indian treats will be laid out on several scantily clad Bollywood models, from which you should feel free to eat until sated. However, please refrain from making eye contact with the models ** we must make some concessions to Hindu piety.
As noted, we are not Muslim, but Hindu. Still ** no Boston Bombing jokes. Too soon.
Every morning with your breakfast, you must read a publication called the New Age, which you will find has been slipped under your hotel room door. This is non-negotiable. While reading, lean back in your chair, rubbing your chin in thoughtful repose. When this task has been completed, close the paper ostentatiously and say, Exactly!
If you do happen to encounter any white South Africans at the event, by all means share sly jokes at the expense of the Powers-that-be, and enjoy a mutual, knowing sneer at the obvious corruption around you. But _by no means_ joke about the countrys dwindling rhino population. This will result in social exclusion, and possibly a lawsuit.
In all online commentary, please refer to the event as the wedding of the century. Here, we are referring specifically to the 18th century.
Have a good time, take a load off, and enjoy! This is, after all, a business conference, by which we mean wedding. Jump on the opportunity to ingratiate yourself with our employees in government and the ruling party. You will, we believe, find them most amenable in almost every respect.
And finally, do not feed the locals. It just gives them ideas.  _Daily Maverick_[1]
 :Stick Out Tongue:  :Embarrassment:   :Wink: 

[1]Richard Poplak *Welcome to the Gupta wedding.* http://mg.co.za/article/2013-05-01-welcome-to-the-gupta-wedding

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ians (04-May-13)

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## pmbguy

This makes my blood boil

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## Citizen X

The Minister of Home Affairs has the power to revoke the citizenship of a citizen who acquired citizenship by naturalisation if “the Minister is satisfied that it is in the public interest that such citizen shall cease to be a South African citizen.”

How is it that the Gupta’s get away with bringing our country into disrepute and breaching our national security scot free?
They acquired citizenship in 1993, in a such a short time of being South African citizens, look at what irreparable damage they have done!

1. By whatever means, the plane was granted permission to land at WaterKloof *but* was Gupta entitled as an ordinary South African citizen to enter such a restricted base to welcome his guests *if* he did indeed do so(*it seems* so from the television footage)?

The more I think about this in my official capacity of ordinary South African citizen, the more angry I become.

“ Dis lekker in Suid Afrika, cause Toronto is too bloody far.”

*Thank goodness for our media*, on the Justice Factor today none other than Atul Gupta was given the great honour of being the loser of the week :Wink:

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## IanF

No wait all is better.



> The Gupta's have apologised for all the incidents reported surrounding the wedding of Vega Gupta, 23, to Indian-born Aaskash Jahajgarhia.
> 
> "In light of what happened... the family would like to issue a general apology to all affected, including the South African and Indian governments, the local authorities, the South African public and especially our guests." Atul Gupta said in a statement issued on Saturday.
> 
> He said his family was "simply trying to give daughter... a memorable wedding on South African soil".


 Link to times live

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## Citizen X

> No wait all is better.
> Link to times live


A very good afternoon to you Ian,

I wonder what the outcome of the official 7 day investigation will be. I suppose there'll be another media briefing. I'm all for apologies, I just don't see sincerity in this one. Emphasis of the apology went along these lines _“__and especially our guests.”_
Will be interesting to see how this unravels...

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## Blurock

... and there was not only the chartered Boeing, there was also private jets and helicopters. So a whole invasion force could land at a "key point" and no-one would know about it. After the invasion there will be finger pointing and some more junior heads will roll, but it will be too late, won't it?

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## Citizen X

> ... and there was not only the chartered Boeing, there was also private jets and helicopters. So a whole invasion force could land at a "key point" and no-one would know about it. After the invasion there will be finger pointing and some more junior heads will roll, but it will be too late, won't it?


And, this my friend brings me to my main question: Is this the type of behaviour that is becoming of a newly appointed South African Citizen? Maybe, it’s just me, but if you get citizenship in another country, you’ll do your utmost to abide by that Countries rules, regulations, policy and procedure. Atul Gupta is not a layman, he can’t plead ignorance to matters of such strategic importance.
I really commend our media. I love our South African media except for that New Age newspaper! I will never buy that paper ever!!!!

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## Blurock

> And, this my friend brings me to my main question: Is this the type of behaviour that is becoming of a newly appointed South African Citizen? Maybe, its just me, but if you get citizenship in another country, youll do your utmost to abide by that Countries rules, regulations, policy and procedure. Atul Gupta is not a layman, he cant plead ignorance to matters of such strategic importance.
> I really commend our media. I love our South African media except for that New Age newspaper! I will never buy that paper ever!!!!


If it was not for the media, we would not know half of what is happening. As it, we only know half any way. :Censored:

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## Citizen X

> If it was not for the media, we would not know half of what is happening. As it, we only know half any way.


This makes for some interesting reading though....
http://mg.co.za/article/2013-05-05-m...against-guptas

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## ians

Shame some poor sucker will take the fall, and be rewarded generously in the distant future, like our mate Mr shaik who lives a life of luxury for taking the rap.

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## Didditmiself

> If it was not for the media, we would not know half of what is happening. As it, we only know half any way.


And that is why they want to gag the press and anybody else that has information that shows up their highly developed ability of corruption, wastage of tax payers money, bribery, theft and general malfeasance. The sentence for being found in possession of 'classified information' is a fine of draconian proportions; R25 000 or 20 years in the slammer!!

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## CLIVE-TRIANGLE

Hi people
I found this particular contrast very amusing; when the news broke, it seemed no officials knew anything. Yet the journalists were there and waiting! Clearly somebody tipped them off.

Also, how on earth did the journalists get access to the base? It was a good many years ago, but things can surely not have changed that much ... even in military uniform, unless you had an access permit there is just no way you got past the gate. Yet they did. As well as the bogus blue-light rabble.

The footage of the convoy similarly begs an explanation. Somebody had knowledge, was unhappy about the whole story, and gave the journos a heads up.

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## Citizen X

> The footage of the convoy similarly begs an explanation. Somebody had knowledge, was unhappy about the whole story, and gave the journos a heads up.


A very good afternoon to you Clive-Triangle :Big Grin:  If that be the case, thank goodness for the person who gave such a meaningful tip-off!
What grabs me is that Premier Helen Zille, an official was not allowed access to Inkandla and we not allowed to even take photograph of Inkandla, yet Gupta is allowed to enter thye base to welcome his guests for a private wedding function, all this at a National Key point which just happens to be a millitary airforce base... 
Why have no charges been brought against the Guptas???

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## vieome

@Vanash, the Problem with DA is that they are a very weak opposition, it is like they dont even dream of Governing but instead they dream of being the opposition. If Obama can be President no reason Zille cant win even if she thought to be L.Os from the Old Era. 

If DA simply started campaining for 1 term only on the grounds that CanCer need a wake up call, they might nudge voters in their direction. Simply ask Voters for one term only that way fears of going back to old era are not in the minds of the voters.

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## Blurock

> @Vanash, the Problem with DA is that they are a very weak opposition, it is like they dont even dream of Governing but instead they dream of being the opposition. If Obama can be President no reason Zille cant win even if she thought to be L.Os from the Old Era. 
> 
> If DA simply started campaining for 1 term only on the grounds that CanCer need a wake up call, they might nudge voters in their direction. Simply ask Voters for one term only that way fears of going back to old era are not in the minds of the voters.


You can not keep on voting for the same corrupt clique and expect things to improve. If you want change, it starts with you. It does not really matter who you vote for, but voting for the party most likely to bring about some sanity may be a good start. I am not promoting any party, they all have their skeletons, all I am asking is for South Africans to open their eyes and not to follow (any) politicians blindly.

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## Citizen X

> You can not keep on voting for the same corrupt clique and expect things to improve. If you want change, it starts with you. It does not really matter who you vote for, but voting for the party most likely to bring about some sanity may be a good start. I am not promoting any party, they all have their skeletons, all I am asking is for South Africans to open their eyes and not to follow (any) politicians blindly.


I too humbly ask my fellow South Africans to vote for change by voting for any other party accept the ruling party!

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## Chrisjan B

> I too humbly ask my fellow South Africans to vote for change by voting for any other party except the ruling party!


I fixed the typo for you Vanash...

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Citizen X (08-May-13)

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## Citizen X

> I fixed the typo for you Vanash...


Thank you love, I'm actually brain dead at the moment, call it the subtleties of the law!

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## Dave S

The problem is not that the voters don't wish for change, it is more a case of the masses being brainwashed, I mean... have a look around, how do the masses get to work? In the taxis where there are millions of mass voters getting together on a daily bases and they are exposed to the cANCer daily too, why does DA (or any other party) not have their own taxi operators? simple, they would be burned and the operators murdered within the first week. The political "clout" of this country does not come from the elite of society, it doesn't come from the real thinkers, it comes from the masses, the brainwashed masses. As soon as our opposition parties get this and do  something about it, we may (and that's a big "may") start to see changes. And, boy, do we need a change...

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## Blurock

How do you educate uneducated people to start asking questions and to start thinking for themselves?

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## Citizen X

The following makes for very interesting reading:

*“Fact or fiction: We unravel the Guptagate spin**”* Sarah Evans, Phillip De Wet[1]

*“*News that the politically connected Gupta family's wedding delegation touched down at the Waterkloof Air Force base last week brought with it a storm of public denials and rebuttals. 
The Gupta family has held their line – that all due protocols were followed in granting permission for the Gupta plane to land at Waterkloof air force base – and documents seen by the _M&G_ show this to be mostly true.
But it is these statements which link them to the protocol procedure, by virtue of their knowledge of what should have been a plainly diplomatic process involving the Indian and South African governments.
The _M&G_ revealed on Tuesday that the plane carrying the Gupta wedding delegation was cleared to land by the South African National Defence Force (SANDF). But it was cleared under the presumption that it was a VIP flight carrying “central government ministers” from India.
Here is a list of claims being made by various figures in the saga, and our analysis of how true those claims could be.
*Claim one: Who requested permission for landing* 

*CLAIM:* Haranath Ghosh, a spokesperson for the Gupta wedding said "the family" chartered the jet but permission for it to land was granted “by the Indian high commission, and not the family". 
He reiterated that the family knew the air force base was used with the permission of the authorities.
“The permissions were applied for and granted to the Indian high commission and not the family. These rights can be applied for by any foreign embassy. Naturally suitable protocol was used to receive and transport the foreign ministers to the wedding.”

*FACT CHECK:* Mostly true. Permission was applied for by the Indian high commission and not the Gupta family. But how did the Guptas know this? This was for the transportation of a “delegation visit” of government ministers from India and the _M&G_ is unaware of any members of the Gupta family who have been appointed as government ministers in India. 
*Claim two: The role of the SANDF*

*CLAIM:* Ghosh: “The Gupta family reiterates that permission for aircraft, carrying foreign ministers and other dignatories, was obtained from the SANDF beforehand. No aircraft is able to land anywhere in the world without obtaining prior permission.”
​*FACT CHECK:* Mostly true. But the SANDF officials who gave the go-ahead for the plane to land were clearly under the impression that the purpose of the flight was a “delegation visit”, implying the foreign ministers were visiting South Africa in their professional capacity. 
Meanwhile, government’s line, broadly, is that the flight landing was “unauthorised”. In any event, said Defence Minister Nosiviwe Mapisa-Nqakula on May 2, an initial request for help, made by a Sahara “representative”, was turned down “because it was not even formalised”.
This was not a request for the SANDF to clear the landing – it appears to have been an attempt to nudge the SANDF in the right direction, pre-empting a request for clearance “to be made” by the Indian high commission.
What is clear is that the SANDF duly received the request for the “VIP delegation visit” flight to land at Waterkloof, and approved it.
Cue outrage by the defence minister, who wasted no time in rescinding the landing clearance and marching the offending aircraft off the Waterkloof landing strip. This was followed by a security cluster press briefing on Friday, during which Justice Minister Jeff Radebe addressed the media.
*Claim three: No official business*

*CLAIM:* Radebe: "Our particular concern is that the aircraft was carrying international passengers who do not fit the category of government officials or VIPs on official duty."
*FACT CHECK:* Mostly true. There is no evidence that the few Indian officials on board conducted any official business. In fact, we don't know if they conducted any business at all, besides attending the Gupta wedding. Our documents show that the passengers were considered VIP and that permission was granted for a plane carrying “central government ministers” from India. When requesting permission for the aircraft to land at Waterkloof, officials said the reason was a “delegation visit”.

The flight was specifically referred to as a “VIP” one that would need to land at Waterkloof on April 30 and depart on May 3. 
*Claim four: Date the landing request was made*

*CLAIM:* Radebe: “The defence attaché of the Indian high commission sent a request for aircraft clearance directly to the Air Force Command Unit within the South African National Defence Force (SANDF) on April 4 2013."
*FACT CHECK:* Mostly false. Our documents show the first request for the plane to land was sent in February. The letter referred to by Radebe was the second communiqué on the subject. 
*Claim five: The international relations department's role*

*CLAIM:* Mapisa-Nqakula: "The Waterkloof Air Command Post received information from the state protocol section of the department of international relations and co-operation, regarding an aircraft carrying state ministers from India and they should assist with clearance for them to land".​
*FACT CHECK:* Mostly false. Our documents appear to indicate that clearance for the aircraft was granted before anyone at the department of international relations was informed.

Our documents also show the letter was addressed to the chief of defence foreign relations within the SANDF, an office that liaises more directly with top commanders and the ministry of defence. 
*Claim six: An unauthorised landing*

*CLAIM:* Radebe: The government is investigating the “unauthorised landing of a private plane at the Waterkloof Air Force Base".
*FACT CHECK:* Mostly false. Our documents show that it was authorised. An apparently standard clearance form, marked "RSA05 External Clearance" was signed. It shows that both customs and immigration officials would be required to deal with the passengers.*”* 




[1] Mail & Guardian: Sarah Evans, Phillip De Wet: http://mg.co.za/article/2013-05-08-00-fact-or-fiction-we-unravel-the-guptagate-spin. Accessed 8 May 2013

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## Blurock

from today's Beeld

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Citizen X (09-May-13), pmbguy (09-May-13)

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## Citizen X

Looking forward to the Guptagate media briefing today at 11 am :Wink:

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## Dave A

Amazing. When you're in the limelight, all sorts of stuff starts turning up.

Guptas score in Joburg property valuation roll.

My favourite part of this story -




> According to the report this value was a low estimate due to renovations the Gupta's made including a helipad, a swimming pool and a cricket pitch.


Falls under "community development spend" too, perhaps?

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## Blurock

So why does Zoom Zoom not tell his side of the story, or is he too embarrassed? He should be.

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## Dave A

> So why does Zoom Zoom not tell his side of the story, or is he too embarrassed? He should be.


I suggest there's every possibility he had nothing to do with it.

And where's the upside of him making a statement on the subject?
(Making sure you're looking at this from his point of view)

The very best thing he *can* do is say nothing.
And it's worth pointing out that in so doing, he gives his "critics" a golden opportunity to hang themselves.

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## Dave A

Zuma says no to dropping his name.




> "It is unfortunate that some officials and members of the public would resort to that practice of using and abusing the names of members of Cabinet in this manner to further their own ends," Zuma added.


Well that's the real problem here, I think - the civil service is accustomed enough to being told to bend the rules from on high that they're not surprised when the person contacting them is making a claim of sanction from above, and accordingly don't query it or blow the whistle on the transgression.

Which reminds me - there's an Act the President is supposed to be signing that would make whistle blowing on something like this a pretty risky business.

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## Chrisjan B

Sign the petition:
http://www.avaaz.org/en/zumas_secret_r/?bsBIJeb&v=25065

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## Justloadit

The continuous shenanigan that does go on eventually trips the very one that use it.
This is a testament to it.

Looking at the situation differently, the use of name dropping in itself also shows that there is no respect for the leadership from the subordinates, as it is assumed that no one is going to question the instruction.

Place yourself in this position, when you have no respect for another person, you will condone your actions to this person, irrespective of the outcome, as it will be justified by your disrespect for that person.

How often have you hurt someone by insulting them because you have disrespected them, even if for a brief moment?

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## wynn

Koloane (sp?) never lied when he said he was being pressured by 'Number One' because everybody knows Zuma is only 'Number Two'.

The Gupta's are 'Number One'    :Wink:

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## Blurock

> Zuma says no to dropping his name.


I'm sure as hell not going pick it up or carry it around for him... :Whistling:

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## IanF

> Koloane (sp?) never lied when he said he was being pressured by 'Number One' because everybody knows Zuma is only 'Number Two'.
> 
> The Gupta's are 'Number One'


Wynn that is my reading of this, wish I was wrong
 :Frown:

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## Dave A

Gupta-linked farm milks Free State coffers.

It just gets better and better  :Stick Out Tongue:

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## Citizen X

This is a story that just won’t go away. Imagine if you in the news business and now you become the leading news!

Call me a cynic and I’ll agree but before you go the number 1 and number 2 route, you must understand the number 1’s and 2’s.

This is done Ian Flemings style.. 
SPECTRE(SPecial Executive for Counter-intelligence, Terrorism, Revenge and Extortion). Their main members the main crew were 21 members with numbers.

Blofeld is number 1, so there are 20 other members. Should any number fail number 1 , there was swift, decisive and lethal punishment death.

Now in this case “number 1” is reportedly Zuma, it’s zama, zama time

*“*More Guptagate details emerge*”**
*

*“*PRETORIA – It’s emerged that the VIP red carpet reserved for state presidents and their deputies was rolled out for the Gupta family’s wedding guests when they made an unauthorised landing at the Waterkloof Air Force Base in April. 

These details are contained in transcripts of evidence presented to the board of inquiry currently looking into the scandal.

They were revealed in an exposé by _Beeld_ newspaper and included evidence under oath that President Jacob Zuma was personally aware of the landing. 

In April, *Eyewitness News* revealed that a private jet chartered by the Gupta family carrying over 200 wedding guests landed at the Waterkloof Air Force Base without following normal procedures.

An investigation by government recommended swift action against several officials in the defence force and the Department of International Relations who were found to have undermined procedures.

Interviews with several Waterkloof air force officials paint a picture of bewilderment and confusion at the sight of 200 Gupta wedding guests arriving to huge fanfare at the military facility.

According to the _Beeld_ report, Movement Control Centre Commanding Officer Daisy Mdluli said she believed the President was en route to the base when the VIP red carpet was rolled out. 

The report also said a key witness in the South African National Defence Force (SANDF)’s investigation into the saga claims Zuma met former Chief of State Protocal, Bruce Koloane, and asked whether everything was on track for the flight.
According to the report, Lieutenant Colonel Christine Anderson accuses Zuma of direct involvement in the scandal in an affidavit that forms part of the record of the military’s investigation into the incident. 
Security Commanding Officer Lieutenant Colonel YC Govender reportedly described how guests used cameras on the base and how personnel were prevented from entering the facility.
The initial probe began on Wednesday and will determine whether there’s enough evidence against the military officials implicated.
An earlier investigation by the Department of Justice found Koloane had said at least three times that he was following the instructions of ‘Number One’.

In the report, Anderson claims for the first time that ‘Number One’ refers to the President.

The hearing, which is taking place until tomorrow, will determine whether five officials will be prosecuted for the unauthorised landing. 

At the same time, the presidency has declined to comment on reports that the President has been directly implicated in the so-called Guptagate scandal.

The Presidency’s Mac Maharaj says the matter is sub judice and no comment will be provided.*”*[1]




[1] EWN: Barry Bateman: http://ewn.co.za/2013/10/03/More-details-emerge-on-Guptagate. Accessed 6 October 2013

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## wynn

And now the big question is.
"Who authorized the access to Waterkloof of the private helicopters that transported the VVIP's to Sun City?"

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## ians

All I see here is tax payers money being wasted, what are they going to achieve, point a finger and go naughty naughty don't do that again. What I would like to see is the balance sheet of what this wedding cost us, in use of civil servants and now the investigation. We all know nothing is going to come of it, or someone will take the fall, get a 10 year jail sentenced, spend a night in a hospital and be on medical parole by the end of that week and out shopping by the weekend.

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## Dave S

> ...and out shopping by the weekend.


probably with Tax-payers money...

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## Blurock

> And now the big question is.
> "Who authorized the access to Waterkloof of the private helicopters that transported the VVIP's to Sun City?"


And the One that authorized it is too much of a coward to admit that he gave the order. Just blame it on apartheid :Innocent:

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## Chrisjan B

Number 1 it's always Number 1!

Sent from my GT-I9300 using Tapatalk 4

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## ians

Could number 1 be Mac, with family in Gupta, related and all. Don't you find it a little strange that such a minority group (Indians) have so many keys playing in Government, like the president spokesman, minister of finance etc.

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## Dave A

> And the One that authorized it is too much of a coward to admit that he gave the order.


Nope - Just way too canny...

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## Blurock

> Nope - Just way too canny...


*cow·ard
ˈkou-ərd/Submit*
noun
noun: coward; plural noun: cowards
1.
a person who lacks the courage to do or endure dangerous or unpleasant things.
synonyms:	weakling, milksop, namby-pamby, mouse; More
antonyms:	hero
adjective
adjective: coward
1.
literary
excessively afraid of danger or pain.
2.
HERALDRY
(of an animal) depicted with the tail between the hind legs.


A coward is someone who will hide behind another, put the blame on others, always runs away from problems, never face a problem, but send others to sort it out. Does this sound familiar? Do we know a such a character? :Whistling:

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## Dave A

There are some who think the hyena is a cowardly beast. It isn't, of course. And in fact it's pretty damn dangerous.

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## Justloadit

It's about choosing your fight.

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## Citizen X

For me it’s really about the fact that the Guptas are in the news business but they made the headlines in print, television, radio and internet for a considerably long period of time(in not the way you want). 

They also seem to be taking number one position on the mass media stage, I like that stage, it brings you the coverage you rightfully and maybe even happily would really want to see..

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## Citizen X

My *BIG FAT GUPTA* wedding


Zapiro, I like your style :Wink: !
Book cover source:
http://www.google.co.za/imgres?imgurl=http://ilovebooks.co.za/wp-content/uploads/2013/10/My-Big-Fat-Gupta-Wedding-300x247.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.ilovebooks.co.za/exclusive-books-2013-festive-wish-list-seasons-readings/&h=247&w=300&sz=39&tbnid=RFiesR0xCbLPaM:&tbnh=90&t  bnw=109&zoom=1&usg=__9lw-o7R_3djhewk2FUFK-_6eZzQ=&docid=wC_8OMZtAVP6KM&sa=X&ei=UqqQUpK1O8Hwh  QfKz4GQBQ&ved=0CDoQ9QEwAQ

Accessed: 23 November 2013

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wynn (25-Nov-13)

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## ians

They get free publicity good or bad and lots of it, some people would say naughty naughty, I had never heard the name Gupta until this wedding, now everyone all over the world knows of the gupta family.

Same with the shower head fella, nothing is going to change, the fella will serve his term, live the life and spend the money and there is nothing you me or anyone else is going to do about it. I am sure he has done what our previous government did put away a little something for when the next person has a turn. So that him, his family and friend can live a life of luxury at your expense.

Send a billion emails maybe that will change the world for a better place...yeah right. :Whistling:

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Citizen X (24-Nov-13)

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## Blurock

> Same with the shower head fella, nothing is going to change, the fella will serve his term, live the life and spend the money and there is nothing you me or anyone else is going to do about it.


You can do something about it; you can report corruption, you can object to the secrecy bill, you can vote against the ruling party, whoever that may be. :Yes:

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Citizen X (24-Nov-13)

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## ians

Yip you can setup another investigation and send the report to the man himself so he can laugh and to spite you spend another R10 mill on a new car for one of his many wives  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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