# Regulatory Compliance Category > BEE and Employment Equity Forum > [Article] White males still dominate top positions in SA

## E-Deposit

White males continue to dominate positions in senior and top management. This is 10 years after the Commission for Employment Equity (CEE) was set up to look into transformation trends in the workplace.

White people account for 62.3% of senior and top management, while blacks account for only 20%. The CEE says there is a need for better representation of the country's demographics in the workplace. Government says the time for begging companies to come to the party is over. It is now pushing for an amended Employment Equity Act that will have bite as the current legislation does not.

Labour Minister Membathisi Mdladlana says some firms do not take transformation in the workplace seriously. Cabinet is now pondering over the amendments and the minister says it is now time to go for the jugular. Significant percentage fines on company turnover for non-compliance are on the cards.

"We want to shorten the process around fining people who do not comply with the law. We are sick and tired with the way people delay complying with Employment Equity, giving them 60 days and undertakings. We just want to fine people on the spot just like traffic officers do," says Mdladlana.

Recommended amendments

The CEE recommends that amendments that should be made to the Act includes improving monitoring, compliance and increase fines. It also suggests that firms should have Employment Equity Certificates when their Black Economic Empowerment scorecard is being considered by government in tender processes. It argues that the industry's claim that there is a lack of black skill is a fallacy.

Feedback from industry suggests that 60% of their professionally qualified staff are black, but that is not reflected in training and promotion levels. "We are very concerned that 10 years later or even 16 years after democracy we are still complaining about the lack of transformation in the work place. We are convinced that it is because of resistance as well as racist practices in the work place that make employment equity a difficult thing in the eyes of the employer," says acting CEE chairperson, Mpho Nkeli.

The CEE also found that wage disparities continued on the basis of race, with white people earning more than their black counterparts doing the same job.

www.sabcnews.com

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## adrianh

Yes I agree, women and blacks are incapable of working their way to the top, we must put them up there so that we all have somebody to laugh at.

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## garthu

> with white people earning more than their black counterparts doing the same job.


Politicians as usual speaking when they should keep there mouths shut as far as i am concerned. I'm sure we could name a few high earners that achieve absolutely NOTHING. 

I know the past has had impact, it has created separation but i wish everyone would get off there high horse over this and just allow it to be the right person for the job. I reckon most people are over the black/white issues, what people really want is individuals that can do there jobs - simple. Really don't care black or white, just do the job properly. If the the job is done correctly, no one cares. 

If a company is run successfully by a white guy - so what, why change a working formula, if he screws up, black or white, get rid of him.

This will probably get me slated severely but the the whole BEE issue has quite simply become reverse racism and worse still people actually get rewarded for doing a cuck job.

I have an immense amount of respect for any individual that can successfully run a company in black or white, very little for a person black or white that is just put there.




> Significant percentage fines on company turnover for non-compliance are on the cards.


 Why mess with it if it's right! Maybe i'm just skipping the point...

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E-Deposit (01-Aug-10)

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## murdock

when is this country gona move forward?

there are 2 problem which require urgent attention 

crime too much of it 

skin colour...we need to move on and as i has said before...only when we are all classified as south africans will the race issue move forward and until such time the black people of this country will continue to discriminate against the white minority.

the other problem this country is experiencing...as the blacks are taking over municipalities so the state of the roads...electricity...water etc are begining to fall apart...becoming a third world country like the rest of africa...it is sad but it is a fact.

the other joke about the race issue...the youth of this country are the worse raciest...i find the older generation who actually suffered from the apartheid goverment are not the raciest...and people who actually suffered like nelson mandela you never hear a bad word...unless i am missing something this is how i see it.

another issue which i have mentioned...all the so called "rubbish" they were drumming into us during our national service...like they are going to rape your wife and daughter if you dont do your national service....etc etc...was it rubbish? i read about it everyday in the newspaper.

78 year old man beaten to death in his workshop...
young girls gang raped by group while boyfriends are forced to watch...
husband held at gun point while each gang member rapes his wife and young daughter repeatedly...as he listening to them crying for help...
etc etc 

hello maybe i am living in a different country to those who mention there is no crime in SA...maybe its time to move to one of these places in 
SA where there is not crime.

my sister told me there is no crime in PE?

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## adrianh

Tokio Sexwale & Maria Ramos sure as hell didn't need to be put into the positions that they attained. They got up there all by themselves. 

What amazes me is that people have to be removed from existing positions to be replaced with BEE's rather than the BEE's creating new business for themselves.

If the tokens were so clever why don't they simply start their own businesses and show the rest of us how it should be done.

I do not believe that anybody in this country has a problem with working for, or with, women & blacks, we have a poblem with the forced placement of inexperienced people at the expense of existing experienced people.

Now here's a thought: The government believes that the BEE's will never attain positions of power based purely on merit and that it needs to hold their little hands while they scamper up the corporate ladder, only to teeter at the top before they fall off and land on their butts.

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## E-Deposit

> Yes I agree, women and blacks are incapable of working their way to the top, we must put them up there so that we all have somebody to laugh at.


I totally disagree with your comment. I'm an independent woman who is determined to be successful!!! How can you look down on us women like that. Not Funny!  :Frown:

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## E-Deposit

> when is this country gona move forward?
> 
> there are 2 problem which require urgent attention 
> 
> crime too much of it 
> 
> skin colour...we need to move on and as i has said before...only when we are all classified as south africans will the race issue move forward and until such time the black people of this country will continue to discriminate against the white minority.
> 
> the other problem this country is experiencing...as the blacks are taking over municipalities so the state of the roads...electricity...water etc are begining to fall apart...becoming a third world country like the rest of africa...it is sad but it is a fact.
> ...


True what you say. Crime is everywhere. People relocate from JHB to Jeffreys Bay to get away from the crime etc however when I stayed in Jeffreys Bay I got mugged/robbed.

People should stop running away from the problems in this country & stand up as a country & face the problem & do something about it!!! But we can only effectively do something about it if & when we all stand together & take action! 

PS. Ations speak louder than words

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## adrianh

*I totally disagree with your comment. I'm an independent woman who is determined to be successful!!! How can you look down on us women like that. Not Funny!*

I will back you 100% in your quest to reach the top yourself, but if you are placed at the top because of BEE then you are on your own.

You look down on yourselves if you force companies to put you in token positions of power.

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Joblife.co.za (01-Aug-10)

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## Joblife.co.za

> Yes I agree, women and blacks are incapable of working their way to the top, we must put them up there so that we all have somebody to laugh at.


I totally disagree with that comment. I can't even believe you said it. I do hope you were only joking and even so it would have been a joke of bad taste.

Also adding to that I feel that it is bad practice to enforce something that allows people to be placed in high positions as figure heads. This does not benefit anyone and in fact makes matters even worse.
Adrianh one thing I do agree with you on is "I will back you 100% in your quest to reach the top yourself, but if you are placed at the top because of BEE then you are on your own."

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## adrianh

*Yes I agree, women and blacks are incapable of working their way to the top, we must put them up there so that we all have somebody to laugh at.*

*I totally disagree with that comment. I can't even believe you said it. I do hope you were only joking and even so it would have been a joke of bad taste.* 

How can you disagree with that comment, if they were able to work their way to the top 
we wouldn't be having this conversation now would we. 

Bad taste - come come, some like curry and some don't, doesn't mean that curry is "in bad taste" We all have the right to our views - you know "Freedom of speech" that teeny weeny little thing that everybody talks about when they say what they want but forgets about when they don't like what others have to say.

It's really fun to watch the BEE's manage companies into the ground. Its like watching a destruction derby, crash boom bam...Damn, it's like a Chuck Norris movie, you know he's gonna destroy everything in the end but you watch with morbid facination anyway. At least my little company doesn't suffer from BEE as I only employ foreigners. My German and Zimbabwean employees work 10x as hard as the lazy locals. They earn fat performance based salaries. I could of course get my BEE status right up there if I made the gardener an equal partner, but he is South Afican so he'll just be a "Sleeping" partner anyway...

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## flaker

*It's really fun to watch the BEE's manage companies into the ground.*quoting Adriaan.

Come on guys it can't be fun & i know it was no fun when PW managed our country South Africa into the ground. Remember that rubicon speech in Durban. Our currency crashed,the stock exchange closed for a few days :Mad: we're now paying more rands for one dollar when previously we got dollars for one rand!Who was this PW.?Who voted him there? :EEK!:

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## adrianh

It is great fun, watching senior technicians get skopped out of ESKOM to be replaced with young BEE women, senior jet aircraft mechanics leave the air force to be replaced with you know who, etc. We just love the "space creation packages" they are so good for the country - you know, letting senior technincians with 35 years experience go on early retirement. It's also cool to watch the young railway control centre operator take the wrong action when a certain green train ran away. Like I said, its a demolition derby, we crack open a six pack, sit back and watch the comedy unfold. Now the question is this; what have I got to lose through all of this - nothing much really, I am already poor, so it doesn't matter to me one way or another. 

I watched a family member with 4 degrees and 25 years experience in a bank be sidelined for a very senior position. The position was filled by a 29 year old BEE who managed all by himself p1$$ the entire management team off so badly that they all left over a period of 2 years. The family member attained a higher position at another establishment only to have the same Mr BEE come for a job interview...Luckily, due to his stunning track record, he failed to get a job, not even as a teller, where he should have been placed in the first place. What the BEE's fail to understand that an MBA cannot replace years of hands on experience. Reading a book about management and then being installed as a manager is like reading a book about golf and then going to play on Tiger Woods's behalf - it simply doesn't work!

Yes PW, what a character, the Rubicon speech was really not so clever. He did cause havoc that day. And the value of the rand, tough one that, considering that the goverment is keeping the rand and its current level. But you know, if we talk about the stupid things that PW said then we can also talk about the stupid things JZ does and also the stupid things that old Julius says. I am glad to see that JZ has gotten ol Julius to keep quiet for a bit, I think the guy got the spaking of his life, much worse that the spanknig he got for failing woodwork.

To get back to where this conversation started - work your way to the top and you have my respect, get plugged in to the top because of a BEE quota and you are on your own. (for me and others to have a good chuckle at your expense)

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## murdock

the bottom line...my sister was paid out a small package and replaced with a BBEE person...now she has lost all the benefits to the other person...like pension medical aid etc etc etc...she is now working in the same position as a contractor without the benefits...but teaching the replacement...to do her job she has been doing for 20 years but without the benefits of a housing subsidy etc...thats the big picture everyone seems to be missing...

and as someone else mentioned...dont run away...well i am not gona say what i would like to...not everyone can find work...especially if you are white...all i have to do is get my british passport like the rest of my family and move to a country where i will be able to get one important thing and thats a pension as i get older...i just need to spend 2 years there and  i will qualify...i cant see this country offering pensions for too many years...what will you do then? at this stage of my life i can go anywhere do anything...put up with the contracts being taken away etc...but what will happen when i need to retire?

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## E-Deposit

> My German and Zimbabwean employees work 10x as hard as the lazy locals. They earn fat performance based salaries. I could of course get my BEE status right up there if I made the gardener an equal partner, but he is South Afican so he'll just be a "Sleeping" partner anyway...


Well my home language is german but I guess that doesnt matter then 'cus I'm a local ... AND I'm a woman hey? :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):  :Wink:

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## adrianh

Ok, I'll admit, I'm not really a tyrant. The German person that works with me is a brilliant 28 year old female graphic designer. My wife is my partner in the business. The wife does all the book keeping n stuff and I look after the technical side. I have 3 Zimbabweans working with me, 1 x white male, 1 x black male & 1 x black female. We all work our butts off and we all get along very well. My two daughters are real little entreprenuers because they spend a lot of time with us in the workshop, talking business & trading on Bid Or Buy & Ebay. We are teaching the girls to have the same attitude as you: To be strong, indepenent, well educated and not to rely on a boyfriend or husband to make their way through life.

I believe some of the things I said are true, some not, and a lot is said simply to wind people up. We take ourselves far too seriously. :-)

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## E-Deposit

> Ok, I'll admit, I'm not really a tyrant. The German person that works with me is a brilliant 28 year old female graphic designer. My wife is my partner in the business. The wife does all the book keeping n stuff and I look after the technical side. I have 3 Zimbabweans working with me, 1 x white male, 1 x black male & 1 x black female. We all work our butts off and we all get along very well. My two daughters are real little entreprenuers because they spend a lot of time with us in the workshop, talking business & trading on Bid Or Buy & Ebay. We are teaching the girls to have the same attitude as you: To be strong, indepenent, well educated and not to rely on a boyfriend or husband to make their way through life.
> 
> I believe some of the things I said are true, some not, and a lot is said simply to wind people up. We take ourselves far too seriously. :-)


Hehe see now what would you do without us women. 
Yeah Independence is really important. However to be independent you have to be strong & if you can't afford education then read books etc and educate yourself  :Smile:  There is no excuse to not be successful. Oh ja and most importantly BE & STAY POSITIVE.  :Slayer:

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## adrianh

> However to be independent you have to be strong & if you can't afford education then read books etc and educate yourself


To quote Richard Branson: "I see life almost like the university education that I never had, everyday I am learning something new".

We all love to read. The girl read lots n lots of fiction. My eldest daughter has her nose perpetually stuck in a book. The little one doesn't read as much but she still reads quite a bit. My wife reads fiction all the time. I don't read fiction anymore, it wastes too much time. There are so many useful books to read.

I am currently reading "Why we make mistakes" by Joseph T. Hallinan (the book also goes by the name Errornomics) - it explains how our minds work (or don't work) - why we crash cars, why pilots fly perfectly good aeroplanes into the ground. I am also reading another book at the same time (I find when the one gets a bit much I switch to the other) "The upside of irrationality" by Dan Ariely. He also wrote "Predictably irrational". The books go into our irrational thought processes - why we buy what we do, why paying huge bonuses doesn't work, why people need a pat on the back, etc. 

Anyway, I agree wholeheartedly, read read read - there are many clever people out there who wrote their thoughts down for us to learn from.

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E-Deposit (02-Aug-10)

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## flaker

:Wink:  :Clap:

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## AndyD

> 


??? what are you confessing???

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## Dave A

Still waiting for the first female President of the ANC  :Stick Out Tongue:

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## AndyD

> Still waiting for the first female President of the ANC


Alas, one of the more likely candidates for this passed away from liver disease recently. :Frown:

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## flaker

> ??? what are you confessing???


Not me Andythe two previous posts now shaking hands

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## AndyD

> the two previous posts now shaking hands


It was a beautiful thing for sure.

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## Dave A

What I really get conflicted about is we've just come out of a patch where JZ is going "see, we really are all South Africans and we can work together." We're all feeling really enthused about how we're coming along as a nation and really keen on keeping it going - well, most of us anyway. And the dinosaurs seem so pathetic.

Then along comes Membathisi Mdladlana with his confrontational tirade and stuffs up the good will. He doesn't even pause to celebrate the progress on professionals (which is really starting to look good BTW - 50% as a goal wasn't that long ago as I recall).

Didn't Membathisi catch World Cup fever? Is he really that much of a dinosaur?

Top management is apex stuff. The groundswell is coming.

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## Olderwagen

> Yes I agree, women and blacks are incapable of working their way to the top, we must put them up there so that we all have somebody to laugh at.


I am a woman and in a way I agree with you.  Maybe not the way you said it, but what you are trying to convey.  And I get the joke.  I myself laugh at the cock-ups some of these BEE placements get up to.

I don't agree with BEE for the same reason/s as everyone else don't agree with BEE.  I don't want a job because I am a woman or white.  I want it because my employer deems me good enough to do the job that he is expecting of me.  Maybe it was just the way I was raised and that is the same values we must instill in our children.  Life isn't free or easy, but if you work hard and put some effort into it, you can make a success of it.

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## flaker

> I am a woman and in a way I agree with you.  Maybe not the way you said it, but what you are trying to convey.  And I get the joke.  I myself laugh at the cock-ups some of these BEE placements get up to.
> 
> I don't agree with BEE for the same reason/s as everyone else don't agree with BEE.  I don't want a job because I am a woman or white.  I want it because my employer deems me good enough to do the job that he is expecting of me.  Maybe it was just the way I was raised and that is the same values we must instill in our children.  Life isn't free or easy, but if you work hard and put some effort into it, you can make a success of it.


No Madaame ,you got it wrong. but ,of course ,i stand to b corrected. Previous posts were suggesting that all women, WEE or BEE make the cock-ups  :Embarrassment: .

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## adrianh

BEE do make many many cock-ups and very few women have the balls to lead.

Anyway, the strikers prove that they are incapable of even doing basic care-giving work, let alone manage as BEE placements.

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## desA

> What I really get conflicted about is we've just come out of a patch where JZ is going "see, we really are all South Africans and we can work together." We're all feeling really enthused about how we're coming along as a nation and really keen on keeping it going - well, most of us anyway. And the dinosaurs seem so pathetic.
> 
> Then along comes Membathisi Mdladlana with his confrontational tirade and stuffs up the good will. He doesn't even pause to celebrate the progress on professionals (which is really starting to look good BTW - 50% as a goal wasn't that long ago as I recall).
> 
> Didn't Membathisi catch World Cup fever? Is he really that much of a dinosaur?
> 
> Top management is apex stuff. The groundswell is coming.


Top notch comment, Dave.

I arrived back in SA on 14th July. Have tried to settle down back here after some 12 years abroad. I fully understand reverse-culture shock & its variants. A series of small shocks serve to create a long term feeling of unease.

Well, donning my initial 'this is Africa' perspective/teeshirt/sunglasses & going with JZ's worldcup-nationalistic flow, all seemed good.

Enter the endless series of small shocks. These have really changed my long-term perspective of SA. Couple this with the recent round of senseless union strikes & dumbass dances. SA is in serious trouble folks. Seriously.

Visited one technical university - was slapped with an 'affirmative action post' wet fish. Popped off to my old uni - saw what it had slipped into - where old lecturers were called back from retirement to rescue the train-smashed department. A tragedy. These old fogies are on 1 year contracts. So, what happens when they leave - all the wheels fall off again?

Add the ongoing BEE crapola & the disaster recipe is well & truly in process.

I'm going to aim at setting up linkages between SA & SE Asia & heading back out again. ASAP!!! I'll service the SA industry as required to keep up the product flow & fly in accordingly. One simply cannot have a long-term view under current circumstances.

Stand up Jacob Zuma & prove that you are the man your mother told us you were!!!

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## greghsa

Thanks for your "external view" of our country DesA. The sadest part is the degeneration of our Universities. Added to this the cost of further education is astronomical. I have an honours degree and enquired about the cost of doing my masters. It would cost R72k.(an MBA starts at R120k) So I would rather put the money in my own business or my bond. Who suffers - the country because our population is not graduating as many people, and the people that are highly educated like doctors are poached by other countries.

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desA (21-Aug-10)

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## Dave A

> ...very few women have the balls to lead.


Interesting comment.

My experience is that women have excellent leadership instincts, particularly as they are more *we* oriented than *me* focused. My theory is the notion that most women "lack balls" is because they're not nearly as ego driven as their male counterparts; they don't chase the spotlight as aggressively as men. Eagerness to stand up in the limelight (balls) is hardly the most important attribute to be looking for in a leader.

Fact is, leaders that got there more from ego drive than team leading talent tend to be "individuals with balls" but weak leaders. Offer a woman with similar experience the leadership post and my bet is not only will she take it, she will probably do a better job of it too.

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## adrianh

The idea of having balls not not being ego driven, but being able to stand up and stick to your guns during adversity. A couple of examples of women with steel balls: Helen Ziller, Patricia de Lille, Maria Ramos, Angela Merkel...etc

...don't forget Mantu for her unrelenting struggle to convert the whole world to beetroot power!

People simply do not follow leaders who are seen to be weak (male or female). 




> Offer a woman with similar experience the leadership post and my bet is not only will she take it, she will probably do a better job of it too.


It could be that my, and your ideas of leadership differ - I do not see leadership and management to be the same. Some managers may be leaders and some leaders may not be managers.

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## Dave A

> It could be that my, and your ideas of leadership differ


Maybe. 

Personally I rely on the John Maxwell definition: "Leadership is influence, nothing more and nothing less." 

From there I rely on his degrees of leadership to differentiate quality of leadership.

Now if we look at the importance of balls, I think Mantu is a classic example of weak leadership despite her balls. She relied very heavily on leadership by position and was entirely ineffective at leadership by permission.

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