# Regulatory Compliance Category > BEE and Employment Equity Forum >  Experienced & unemployed

## JanChris

What does a white male over 50 with tertiary qualifications & experience have to do to get employment in SA?

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## adrianh

You simply forget about that idea and start your own little enterprise.

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## HR Solutions

What do you do Jan ? And what experience do you have ?

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## JanChris

> You simply forget about that idea and start your own little enterprise.


Hi, I have been trying but not easy to get investors or partners. I designed and built a machine in the late 80's that takes soil samples and is self driven. I know it is a winner as I have never seen such a machine. Lot of requests to tell them more but I wont until an agreement is signed. It has huge export potential.

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## JanChris

> What do you do Jan ? And what experience do you have ?


I've been in the production/factory management field for 25 years and I did all from construction, steel manufacturing and motor industry. Worked my way up after I completed my trade.

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## adrianh

> Hi, I have been trying but not easy to get investors or partners. I designed and built a machine in the late 80's that takes soil samples and is self driven. I know it is a winner as I have never seen such a machine. Lot of requests to tell them more but I wont until an agreement is signed. It has huge export potential.


Unfortunately there is no easy answer. The only thing one can do is to seek out opportunities and develop them. Those opportunities may be miles away from what you did as a career but they may provide an income nonetheless.

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## JanChris

> Unfortunately there is no easy answer. The only thing one can do is to seek out opportunities and develop them. Those opportunities may be miles away from what you did as a career but they may provide an income nonetheless.


Thanks, I will continue to search but I am sure that I will find something to do. I just feel that it is such a waste of not being able to share your knowledge as I learnt so much from the industry leaders that I was fortunate to work with. This sounds like the same old story but when you have to work with "younger" (as I once was)  people in the field, you realise that you have so much to give and at the moment it is going to waste. Maybe that is why our country is in the state it is in. I was fortunate to live and work in both SA's and there is a clear difference and in some instances not for the better.

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## adrianh

I am going to speak very broadly because what you are saying ties in with my thinking.

The problem is not with work but with money. There is lots of work to do. Each of us needs stuff to get done and so does every business. Most people have skills of some sort and are able to do work that has value to another. The problem is that there is not enough money to pay one another to do work. I keep ranting about the banks but the reality is that the banks add very little value to our lives yet take a large proportion of our income. Lets leave the government and their taxes aside for the moment. When you pay me for the work that I have done the bank takes a percentage when I deposit the money. They charge me admin fees, internet fess and whatever other fees they can dream up. They then charge me when I pass the money on to another person.

When societies were close people were able to barter and work on mutual credit systems. In a mutual credit system we would provide services and goods to one another without the use of currency. So, lets say I do laser cutting for you, the system would owe me 100 units and you would owe the system 100 units. I could then use my 100 units to purchase 100 units of wood from a provider and he could use your 100 units of labour. 

We have allowed ourselves to be throttled by the notion of money. Consider this analogy, the economy is a human body, the government is the bran and everything else are body parts. Currency is blood and oxygen richness of the blood is the value of the currency. Ok, hold that thought and don't extrapolate the analogy any further (I know that you are thinking that the government is actually the arse but lets say "the perfect government" is the brain) The banks are like parasites manning each and every artery vein and capillary. They throttle each and every flow and then siphon off a percentage for themselves. The blood that they siphon off is blood that that the body manufactured and needs to survive.

Ok, back to the current situation. There are millions of people whose creativity and skills go to waste. People take on crappy jobs that they hate to make money. Many people such as yourself do not have jobs yet you have tremendous skills and knowledge. The problem is bigger that black vs. white, BEE etc. The problem lies in the fact that everything that we do first has to be translated into money before it can be considered to be useful. 

There is a huge stumbling block to my ideas and it is the matter of trust, we don't trust one another to keep our word or play fair.

I will describe my setup and what I would like to see happen.  I run a small business from the house. We do laser cutting, cnc machining, resin casting and lots more interesting things. I always have more work than I can handle and I need lots of services and materials. As you well know it is a very difficult circle to manage. You need to pay for marketing, then you need to pay for materials, staff, etc. Growth is very slow because we have to grow organically. I cannot go out and market too much because if I do I won't be able to supply demand. I cannot hire more staff because I may or may not get and retain the market. I do not have capital laying around to build up stock and materials. But...I am able to offer my services in exchange for other services rather than cash and that is how small business can grow together. I may do some drawing or cnc cutting for somebody who does assembly work for me and they may use the services of a bookkeeper and in turn give the bookkeeper fruit that they grow in their garden etc. This all sounds fanciful but it is not. My production systems suck and I am sure you would straighten them out in two minutes flat but I would not be able to pay you in cash for your services. I may be able to pay you in products cut on the laser for example.

Look, I think that you need to see how you can use your skills to create your own business. I think that you should see whether you are able to trade your skills for something else that you could use or sell and then build on that. There are millions of people in this country who have the same problem and each one of us see ourselves as individual islands in a sea of jobless despair. If we could get together and exchange skills we could free ourselves from the noose that money ties around our necks.

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wynn (04-Jul-14)

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## HR Solutions

Jan - I have just spoken to my girls and we are looking for similar, but with experience in heavy engineering ie overhead cranes ??
Would your experience cover this ?

Alternatively if I can make a suggestion - why don't you upload your cv onto our data base via our website.  Please make sure you fill in ALL the required blocks.  It will then go directly into our data base whereby when something comes up - your cv will be matched with key words that our girls look for.  Another option is to upload your cv on Pnet.  This is a job portal which is open to all recruiters that subscribe to it.  There is work out there for us older okes, it is limited but by uploading your cv as above will certainly help you.

PS Please note - that this costs you nothing.  The costs are covered by the recruitment companies.

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## JanChris

> Jan - I have just spoken to my girls and we are looking for similar, but with experience in heavy engineering ie overhead cranes ??
> Would your experience cover this ?
> 
> Alternatively if I can make a suggestion - why don't you upload your cv onto our data base via our website.  Please make sure you fill in ALL the required blocks.  It will then go directly into our data base whereby when something comes up - your cv will be matched with key words that our girls look for.  Another option is to upload your cv on Pnet.  This is a job portal which is open to all recruiters that subscribe to it.  There is work out there for us older okes, it is limited but by uploading your cv as above will certainly help you.
> 
> PS Please note - that this costs you nothing.  The costs are covered by the recruitment companies.


Hi, I have loaded my CV on all the job portal/websites. Some time ago I mentioned of being more qualified than the "senior" guy interviewing me, and that I got the feeling right away that I would not be successful because I am more qualified than him.

Adrian, makes perfect sense but money can be used as a form of payment only that we have become a society or of who is doing who.

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## JanChris

Adrian, you view, "idea" makes perfect sense and money could still be used as payment. It is just that the big corporations use it to dominate / control not only the market but individuals. The banks should "pay" us for using there services.

I have a brilliant product to manufacture & market but the potential investors/partners first want the product description. I will share the info once they have signed the non-disclosure agreement. There are unfortunately a lot of "weird" characters in this world.

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## HR Solutions

> Hi, I have loaded my CV on all the job portal/websites. Some time ago I mentioned of being more qualified than the "senior" guy interviewing me, and that I got the feeling right away that I would not be successful because I am more qualified than him.
> 
> Adrian, makes perfect sense but money can be used as a form of payment only that we have become a society or of who is doing who.



OK good luck.

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## JanChris

> OK good luck.


Thanks for the wishes but that's what they all say  "Good Luck". It is not luck I want, I need a position where I can apply my trade.

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adrianh (05-Jul-14)

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## Blurock

> Hi, I have been trying but not easy to get investors or partners. I designed and built a machine in the late 80's that takes soil samples and is self driven. I know it is a winner as I have never seen such a machine. Lot of requests to tell them more but I wont until an agreement is signed. It has huge export potential.


It is a waste of time going through the traditional channels to raise finance for a new product or business. Best would be to build a prototype and to do a demo for the guys who manufactures or use this type of equipment. If necessary sell up to 50% of the rights to someone who can add value (not just an investor, but someone in that industry). Remember that 100% of nothing is still nothing.

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## HR Solutions

Well Jan I have told u to do two things which would help your position tremendously and u have declined them so obviously all people can then say is good luck

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## Justloadit

> It is a waste of time going through the traditional channels to raise finance for a new product or business. Best would be to build a prototype and to do a demo for the guys who manufactures or use this type of equipment. If necessary sell up to 50% of the rights to someone who can add value (not just an investor, but someone in that industry). Remember that 100% of nothing is still nothing.


Done that and still been successful.

What I have noted, is that no one wants to be involved in the pain, they just want to participate in the profits, but investing as little as possible. In other words they want everything for almost nothing. On one or two occassions I actually asked these so called investors if there was a word "Doos" engraved on my forehead, as I may be an engineer but I understand business and finance.

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## adrianh

There are a number of things that I have learned about investors:
1. They want to get back a lot more than they put in - otherwise they may as well leave their money in the bank.
2. You have to put your money where your mouth is - they will not invest in your idea unless you are willing to go balls to the wall yourself - You will have to put everything on the line yourself too (house, car and whatever else you have).
3. They will not fund your lifestyle - they are there to invest in a product, not you salary, car, and holiday.
4. They will give you just enough money as it is needed to keep you hungry for more.
5. They primarily invest in people and not ideas. The reason being that the right person will be able to relentlessly drive viable ideas but the wrong person will simply not be able to drive any idea.
6. They look for passion, drive, industry knowledge, a willingness to learn but also a willingness to work hand in hand with the investor.

...and after all of that you still need to be sure that your investor doesn't leave you out in the cold once the product starts making money. Nikola Tesla died pennyless yet the entire world relies on his inventions every second of every day. Yet Westinghouse, Edison and Marconi did very well riding on his coattails.

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## Justloadit

> Done that and still been successful.


Actually meant unsuccessful .

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## Justloadit

> There are a number of things that I have learned about investors:
> 1. They want to get back a lot more than they put in - otherwise they may as well leave their money in the bank.
> 2. You have to put your money where your mouth is - they will not invest in your idea unless you are willing to go balls to the wall yourself - You will have to put everything on the line yourself too (house, car and whatever else you have).
> 3. They will not fund your lifestyle - they are there to invest in a product, not you salary, car, and holiday.
> 4. They will give you just enough money as it is needed to keep you hungry for more.
> 5. They primarily invest in people and not ideas. The reason being that the right person will be able to relentlessly drive viable ideas but the wrong person will simply not be able to drive any idea.
> 6. They look for passion, drive, industry knowledge, a willingness to learn but also a willingness to work hand in hand with the investor.
> 
> ...and after all of that you still need to be sure that your investor doesn't leave you out in the cold once the product starts making money. Nikola Tesla died pennyless yet the entire world relies on his inventions every second of every day. Yet Westinghouse, Edison and Marconi did very well riding on his coattails.


I have invested a substantial amount of time and own money, and driven to the point that a conceptual unit built with my own money, and a prototype built with another group of engineer/manufacturer with their money, but have not and still not able to draw any investors in. I reckon to date probably total investment of R1M. The group was successful only to patent in RSA as we did not have the funds to do world wide patent. Received a final letter from overseas patent attorneys, after investigation world wide, that we are successful in the uniqueness of our patent.

Every single home on the planet would make use of this unit, and more so that there is the threat of failure from not only ESKOM but other utility suppliers. The product can also be used in areas in which no infrastructure has been provided. Can be used by third world emerging markets and 1st world markets to reduce their tendency from a central source of supply. 

The unit makes use of gas as a primary source of energy, and improves efficiency in the use there off.  We are talking about the use of 60 to 70% return in energy usage from each liter of gas used, to supply cooking, heating, cooling and electrical generation.

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## adrianh

@Justloadit - If you are serious about getting real investment and you want to talk turkey I could introduce you to my brother. He has invested a fortune in my, and other businesses. Like I said, he invests primarily in people, ideas are secondary. The list of ventures he is involved in is mind boggling. As an aside, he is very influential and extremely well connected.

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## Justloadit

Ok Adrian, will PM you with some info in the morning about the project. You can then pass it on and see what he says.

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## adrianh

Great!

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## JanChris

Guys, It is much easier to develop an idea or a working prototype if you have funds. What do you do if you have no funds bat actually built such an prototype that only cost about R20000 in the late 80's, that replaces a machine that costs millions. I have also build a powerless fridge. The interested parties want to know in detail how the machine works but I refuse to give them the info until they have signed an non-disclosure agreement.

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## HR Solutions

> The interested parties want to know in detail how the machine works but I refuse to give them the info until they have signed an non-disclosure agreement


If they were really interested - why don't they sign the NON - disclosure agreement ?  Its not as if THEY are not going to know how something works, its merely that they cant disclose to anyone else, but if they really wanted the product they would keep it in house and sign .......  

So Im a little confused - I understand that you wont give them the info, but don't understand further ....

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## JanChris

> If they were really interested - why don't they sign the NON - disclosure agreement ?  Its not as if THEY are not going to know how something works, its merely that they cant disclose to anyone else, but if they really wanted the product they would keep it in house and sign .......  
> 
> So Im a little confused - I understand that you wont give them the info, but don't understand further ....


Unfortunately not all interested parties have honest intentions. Maybe they would want all the details to fabricate the equipment themselves.

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## Blurock

> Guys, It is much easier to develop an idea or a working prototype if you have funds. What do you do if you have no funds bat actually built such an prototype that only cost about R20000 in the late 80's, that replaces a machine that costs millions. I have also build a powerless fridge. The interested parties want to know in detail how the machine works but I refuse to give them the info until they have signed an non-disclosure agreement.


An NDA as a pre-requisite is the minimum requirement. If they do not want to sign it, walk away and look for someone else.

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## Greig Whitton

> Guys, It is much easier to develop an idea or a working prototype if you have funds. What do you do if you have no funds bat actually built such an prototype that only cost about R20000 in the late 80's, that replaces a machine that costs millions. I have also build a powerless fridge. The interested parties want to know in detail how the machine works but I refuse to give them the info until they have signed an non-disclosure agreement.


Why not patent your inventions? Personally, I don't put a great deal of stock in NDAs.

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## adrianh

The reality of design and manufacture is that whatever you make, it will be copied and probably improved upon. The only way is to sell on fast and hard and to build a reputation for the business. There is practically nothing in this world that cannot used as a basis to build something new and better. The problem with patents is that they do not stop anybody from copying your product, they simply give you a tool that you can use in a court to try and enforce your rights. Patents mean absolutely nothing to the Chinese and little companies are also happy to copy and trade on the fringes. What will you do if you see a company making similar products to you, nothing much other than flap your wings and if you have the money then take them to court. Taking companies to court is simply a waste of time because you are simply unable to take each and every one of them to court.

The reason many ideas never materialize is because the inventor feels that he should get the largest part of the profits because he had the idea. No investor will give his money away for a tiny stake in a venture.

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## HR Solutions

> Unfortunately not all interested parties have honest intentions. Maybe they would want all the details to fabricate the equipment themselves.


But even if they do that - you are asking for them to sign a non disclosure .......... nothing else ? !

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## JanChris

> But even if they do that - you are asking for them to sign a non disclosure .......... nothing else ? !


I know, don't understand also. Maybe I have to wait some more and see if I can get an honest and sincere investor. I have now approached the international market and if the local guys don't want to support the project, it will be there loss. I know I have a winner, not only in SA but international.

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## IanF

Why don't you try something like Indiegogo raise money
Then you can have total control over your product.
There are lots of websites like this.

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## Blurock

> I know, don't understand also. Maybe I have to wait some more and see if I can get an honest and sincere investor. I have now approached the international market and if the local guys don't want to support the project, it will be there loss. I know I have a winner, not only in SA but international.


Approach the Dept of Economic Development. In KZN they have a grant program where they will assist in creating manufacturing jobs. Unfortunately it is restricted to businesses in KZN (unless you want to move and establish your factory here). I am sure there must be something similar in your province. 

The only problem is that it takes almost a full year to get past the approval stage. After that there are lots of strings attached, but it is still a good option.
We have qualified into the final stage, but time to market forced us to abandon the grant and rather opt for an investor who could add value to our business.

Sometimes you just cannot wait for the red tape if there is a product, ready to be sold.

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## JanChris

> Why don't you try something like Indiegogo raise money
> Then you can have total control over your product.
> There are lots of websites like this.


Thanks, I will look into this.

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## JanChris

> Approach the Dept of Economic Development. In KZN they have a grant program where they will assist in creating manufacturing jobs. Unfortunately it is restricted to businesses in KZN (unless you want to move and establish your factory here). I am sure there must be something similar in your province. 
> 
> The only problem is that it takes almost a full year to get past the approval stage. After that there are lots of strings attached, but it is still a good option.
> We have qualified into the final stage, but time to market forced us to abandon the grant and rather opt for an investor who could add value to our business.
> 
> Sometimes you just cannot wait for the red tape if there is a product, ready to be sold.


Thanks, I have scanned the government departments on the net and chatted to some guys, but it appears to be a long road and the road is not always "honest". I do not want to do something illegal and all the red tape is killing the entrepreneur. There must be someone or a group or an established manufacturing company that can assist. This will not result in a large cash layout for the company as they already have the equipment to manufacture the component I want to build.

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## Greig Whitton

Almost all grants programs are only available to established companies that have been trading for some time (not new startups or prospective entrepreneurs).

Jan, you may want to consider enterprise development funding. Some independent funds are willing to take on higher risk ventures, especially if it involves new technology or is expected to have a strong social impact.

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## JanChris

> Almost all grants programs are only available to established companies that have been trading for some time (not new startups or prospective entrepreneurs).
> 
> Jan, you may want to consider enterprise development funding. Some independent funds are willing to take on higher risk ventures, especially if it involves new technology or is expected to have a strong social impact.


Thanks

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