# Social Category > South African Politics Forum > [Opinion] History not to be taught in our schools

## Butch Hannan

They should ban the teaching of history in our schools. Healing will never take place while past wrong doings are the subject matter taught in schools. My grandson has to constantly hear how the white people were very bad. His young black friends look at him at as a monster when they were both born in the New South Africa. It should rather be replaced by "Ethics and Morality"

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## tec0

Once before I have stated that there are 3 things that the human race has to abandon if they wish to be free and allow for positive growth. History, Religion and Greed. History wants to act as constant reminder that we where once primitive and it reminds us of all the past wars and mistakes and act as a curse and brands us, and damn our children.

Religion suppresses growth and self worth to the point where ministers and priests demands our wealth for their own selfish needs. They suppress the feminine and even in our world today little has changed not to mention the scandals that surround there practices. They appointed themselves as superior and keep scriptures from the public eye, and hide them in punkers surrounded by guns and guards. They deny us truths and knowledge and deny humans their dignity.  

Lastly is Greed! For humanity can see past the use of money and the greater good of sharing wealth so that all my live and work as equal. Every day millions is denied access to medical equipment and basic live saving operations. Not to mention the simple basics like food and water. We value paper more than human life. Our arts reflect it in pictures, photos and movies.

Without these 3 systems we will be able to evolve. Right now the world is flawed only because we as human kind willed it to be flawed.   :Headbutt:

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## twinscythe12332

History is perfectly fine. it's when selective history is taught, then there becomes a problem.

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Butch Hannan (23-Apr-10), Dave A (19-Apr-10), desA (09-May-10), tonyflanigan (18-Apr-10), wynn (19-Apr-10)

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## Dave A

Can you really mould a better future without learning lessons from the past? I agree with twin - there needs to be perspective, but denying our history is not the solution.

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## AndyD

If history was taught along with perspective then maybe it would stop repeating itself and the same mistakes wouldn't keep being made. We'd all progress faster as a race.

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Butch Hannan (26-Apr-10)

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## wynn

History is taught by the victor.
In our case there was no victor just concensus that we had to move past a point of political empass.
Teach your kids the correct sequences, if the history being taught in school is not factual, query it.

There was an interesting article last week where Barrack Obama had something to say about slavery, the article mentioned that his wife was a decendant of slavery.
What struck me was they never mentioned the fact that Obama's black forefathers were probably involved in capturing and selling the forefathers of his wife to traders and therefore into slavery.

The same as certain Politicians believe they won over apartheid, history will prove them wrong. It was the majority of moderate whites that allowed true democracy to take hold.
Eventually it will be the moderate majority of south Africans that will put history into perspective.

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## tec0

Well life as we know it consist of âwho is right and who was wrongâ never forget that one nationâs freedom fighter is another nationâs terrorist. If we dwell on the past then there will not be a future, just more of the same BS. 

Right slavery has been eradicated if you want to be âjammer gatâ about it then get a life because we all had our challenges to overcome. The biggest challenge is yet to come and that is acceptance. Accept the past as the past and leave it at that. But if you want to systematically abuse history to keep old hate alive then hate will live. It is really that simple. 

I still say ban history, religion and get rid of greed and the systems that are used by greed. We are an evolved species and we can go beyond the gold coin and start working to maintain life in general. We can design and build systems so advanced that our understanding may change again. But right now we are all just sad little slaves running around plying the blame game...  :Stick Out Tongue:

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## twinscythe12332

> History is taught by the victor.


Funnily enough that reminds me of a debate another forum was having:
If Germany had won the war, would America be seen as evil?

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## Dave A

> If Germany had won the war, would America be seen as evil?


At the very least, today would be a totally different world.

No conflict over Palestine.
No cold war between the super powers of USA and USSR (just who would have been the super powers?)
No rock and roll?
No Microsoft?

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## garthu

Funny thing with history in politics, no one learns from it really. Same mistakes made over and over often, just in a different manner. If people ran there business without learning from yesterday, it would collapse. Don't know why the human race is always so set against itself.

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## garthu

Oh and Dave, no microsoft, you make a good argument for them having won  :Stick Out Tongue:

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## twinscythe12332

> Oh and Dave, no microsoft, you make a good argument for them having won


I'll take Microsoft over being shot in the face for complaining about the nazi background any day, thanks.

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## Butch Hannan

The unfortunate thing that is happening is that the way history is being taught it is perpetuating and imprinting hatred into he psyche of young people. What a lot of people do not realise is that hatred like the other emotions such as greed and jealously are actually self destructing emotions. They will destroy any individual who is caught up and overcome with these emotions.

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## Butch Hannan

When I started this thread I merely said that history should not be taught in our schools. It leads to dangerous brain washing of young people and perpetuates hatred. Our history is our history and we are stuck with it whether it be good or bad.
To ban religion *as history would show* will never work. I have only good memories of the various ministers that I have been involved with and they certainly did not enrich themselves at my expense. My giving to the church has always been of my own free will and as the Holy Spirit has convicted me to do.

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## adrianh

There is no such thing as unbiased history. Everybody sees the past to suit their needs. Some say the pyramids were tombs, some say they were machines generating energy. Some say the bible is the only truth while other say that the Romans concocted the stories to control society. Some say 9/11 was comitted by terrorists and some say that the FBI did it...etc.

The problem is that whatever we believe was recorded by some person, concocted by some person or rewritten by some person. Just as CNN reports whatever suits their pockets, so do journalists.

I once heard a wonderful saying "You can change the future, but you can't change the past"

To get back to history being taught at schools - When I was at school many many years ago I learned about Jan Van Riebeek, Wolraad Wotemaade and how the voortrekkers trekked up north and whacked the blacks. I learned that "Die groot swart gevaar" is going to come from Angola to kill the whites. I was taught that black people should sit in 3rd class in the back carriage of the train. I was taught that the black should work in the garden and not sit at the supper table.  BTW: Black people were not allowed in the NG church, our gardener and maid were the only people that attened my fathers funeral.

So you tell me: what is the difference between the rubbish that is being taught now and the rubbish that was taught then?

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Dave A (26-Apr-10)

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## Butch Hannan

Teaching history tends to perpetuate the agendas hidden or otherwise of the people in power. A lot of the things that you mention were actually legislated which makes it worse. They were not in the history books. Let us not forget that the Voortrekkers were actually running from a very oppressive British colonial rule. They were forced to study in English at the schools.

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## tec0

Well let us not forget that religion can also be an evil thing. And here is a bit of a history lesson: 




> 1985 -- In one of the first major abuse cases to become public, Louisiana priest Gilbert Gauthe pleads guilty to 11 counts of molesting boys. He serves 10 years in prison.
> 
> 1992 -- Massachusetts priest James Porter is charged with sexually abusing more than two dozen boys and girls. Porter, who pleads guilty and is sentenced to 18 to 20 years in prison, is the first case in what becomes a major scandal in the Boston diocese. 
> 
> 1992 â At a meeting in South Bend, Ind., the U.S Conference of Catholic Bishops acknowledges that some bishops have attempted to cover up abuse.
> 
> 1996 -- Milwaukee's archbishop writes to Cardinal Ratzinger calling for canonical trials for two priests in his diocese who are accused of sexual abuse, including Murphy. He receives no response. Over the next two years, Wisconsin bishops will press for Murphy's dismissal but receive no encouragement from the Vatican.
> 
> 1997 -- Maciel is charged with sexually abusing seminarians and boys in his care. Ratzinger orders the investigation closed.
> ...


Source:



> http://www.vpr.net/npr/126160853/


So I am sticking with my guns on this one, history is a destructive tool if abuses but can be educational if used correctly. But history cannot be objective because there are always two sides to every coin... Now if only the one side is being told to cultivate hate... then clearly one must question motive. 

And as the above have sown you, if religion is used for evil it can and will be devastating! Why would I allow my child âif I had childrenâ to go to church with a âhistoryâ like the above mentioned.  :EEK!: 

The point I am making is that it is our responsibility as a parent to teach our children the truths of this world. Still it is easier to watch the âgameâ on TV then to sit down and teach them âbecause that is the teachers job anyway.â   :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## adrianh

*The point I am making is that it is our responsibility as a parent to teach our children the truths of this world*

This is a circular argument - how do you know what the truth is if everytning you were taught, and everything you get from the media, is biased to start with.

Truth is bull$hit anyway - the human mind operates in shades of grey - not black and white - there is only perception and approximation.

The only thing you can teach your children is to keep an open mind and to look at things from different perspectives.

I agree that religion can be very destructive but it also serves its intended purpose which is to keep the general population in check through fear of the unknown. Get a hold of the following documentary: Zeitgeist.

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## tec0

Zeitgeist.  :Drunk: 

Yes well I have seen this documentary lots of times before and NO. The basic truth is we are not America. Here we are dealing with simple corruption not supper human bankers. The documentary may be true for America but here we are dealing with something else. 

Right now South Africa is a haven for criminals of all kind there is simply no law anymore. As it stands it is every person for him or herself. We have seen our rights being stripped away and things are becoming hopeless to the point where children as young as 7 have committed suicide. I will say it again we are not America, our crime rate is responsible for 18000 deaths per year and that is excluding health related deaths and suicides.  :Detective:

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## Butch Hannan

You have reacted exactly as I thought you would tec0. A lot of the evils of this world have been caused by over zealous religions. Conversely a lot of the evils of this world have been changed for the better due to the efforts of organised religion. The churches on the opposite side of the Afrikaans Churches were in the forefront of bringing apartheid to an end in this country. In the town that I live in there would be a lot of very hungry people if it was not for the efforts of the local churches. At least they put their money where their mouth is by running feeding schemes. Various religions do an awful lot of good in this world.

Unfortunately a lot of people hijack religion for their own nefarious needs. They will eventually be judged one day and I would not like to be in their shoes when this judgement takes place.

Statistically the world has about 2.1 billion Christians followed by about 1.5 billion followers of the Islamic faith. Either approximately two thirds of the world population are correct or horribly misguided.

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## tec0

Well, I don’t believe in a church because people always want to point out that I am a clot. Then they will slam the good book down and belittle me even more by my so-called “lack of understanding” It is always my shortcomings that ends up in the spotlight. 

Well I have become accustomed to ridicule and in the end I just thought it foolish because if people can make someone bad simply because they “will” it or “play you” for a fool then they are not using their intelligence correctly.

Belittling and gloating is the worst form of sarcasm.  So I don’t particularly care if I burn in hell I hope I make for some entertainment for the many devils and demons. Why do I say this? Simple, people like yourself works with a simple law: “If you are not with me you are against me” and If am “against” you then I must be evil right?  

Sorry but I learned a vital truth. My life was given to me and I will use it as I see fit. I don’t have to please you or explain my actions or point out the “good” that I do. Like history, religion became a weapon that no one is allowed to question. History has showed us that greed is as old as a lock and key. Not to mention that innocent women was executed by order of the church so that their land could be taken.

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## adrianh

But tec0, you once again have a circular argument - you said that:

*Belittling and gloating is the worst form of sarcasm. So I don’t particularly care if I burn in hell I hope I make for some entertainment for the many devils and demons. Why do I say this? Simple, people like yourself works with a simple law: “If you are not with me you are against me” and If am “against” you then I must be evil right?* 

...yet this is exactly what you do. 

You are so angry...

Look, I don't believe in religion and all that jazz either, and that is why I quoted Zeitgeist - not because of their views on politics but because of their views on religion - somehow you got stuck on part 2 of the documentary, which is odd because we have been talking about religion all along.

Anyway, humanity gives itself far to much credit, we are not the best thing since sliced bread and we are not as worthy of eternal life as we think we are.

To get back to where we started - wars have been fought over many issues, land, politics, skin colour, greed, religion, to help a friendly country or simply to piss somebody else off. You carry on about the Catholics and the little boys, yes there are some really bad priests, but then there are bad teachers, doctors, policemen, average women and men and Joe soap that strips his mo_r one night and kills his entire family. The bottom line is that you have to keep an open mind and not be a bigot yourself.

Should history and religion be taught in school, it doesn't really matter if it is or not. I have 2 daughters, 9 & 11 and we do homework with them every day. We talk about issues ranging from science & technology to boys, religion, politics, love hate, sex, music, good, bad and anything else that comes to mind. My girls are very bright and have very open minds (where open minds means looking at issues from different perspectives), they can think for themselves and they can make intelligent decisions. My duty as a parent is to enable my kids to be open minded, clear thinking, self reliant individuals. I am raising adults, not children.

When  I was 16 I told the dominie that I don't want to hear his stories - he said something to me that stayed with me all my life, he said: "allow me to show you what I believe and then you decide for yourself". You see, you are influenced by what you allow to influence you, you don't have to only rely on the schools version of events - your kids can read alternative histories and learn about other religions. You have the library, internet and the older generation available to learn from, why not use the tools available to you to open your mind a little.

To put it bluntly, the reason that teaching history and religion in school is a problem is because parents are too damned stupid and lazy to show their children the big world beyond the little minds of the parent themselves.

*And finally a profound quote about leadership and parenting:

"Good leaders (parents) have open minds,
Great leaders (parents) open the minds of others"*

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Dave A (01-May-10)

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## tec0

Angry, yes I am angry because I have seen enough to convince me that the world is not a good place. I question motive, and it is our duty do question motive because there are people that have motives and these motives always dictate behaviour. 

Once you understand that motives and behaviour goes hand in hand then you will see that action is always connected to motives and behaviours. So for me it is important to identify motive when it comes to religion, history, society and general education.

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## adrianh

Motive and behaviour does not always go hand in hand. A lot of things are done without motive. When a mo_r is stripped instantaneously or when drunk drivers kills a lot of kids with their cars, I can assure there was no motive, in the first case; just mental instability and in the second case; blatant stupidity.

The fact of the matter remains that you choose to believe whatever you want, whatever the motive of the other party.

The motive behind the way all those things are taught is to shape society to the need of the reigning regime - but we all know that anyway, and jumping up and down ain't going to change it.

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## tec0

When a person drives to a bar his intention is to drink alcohol. He has no sober diver with him thus his intention is to drive home intoxicated. Motive: To get drunk and drive home intoxicated full knowing âbecause he is licensedâ that it is illegal to drink alcohol and drive. 

He gets drunk âintention realizedâ now his behaviour will be altered due to the alcohol and he causes an âaccidentâ and the children are dead. Now his behaviour was dictated by his motive and that was do drive to the bar get drunk and drive back. 

Now his action âaccidental or notâ was dictated by his motive and behaviour. Thatâs why it is considered âmurderâ if you are intoxicated and driving a car and causes an accident .

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## tec0

Road rage or âstrip jou m_erâ while driving can be a mental condition or the cause of stress that allowed for temporary insanity. But if the condition is realised and not treated then the game changes and you can still be held accountable simply because you where diagnosed with the problem and you didnât want to accept treatment for whatever personal reason. 

However if you did accept treatment and the treatment was not working than the person giving the treatment must justify his or her Motive âbut in South Africa road rage is still a touchy subject for our law makers." Normally you get charged with assault anyway so...  :Surrender:

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## adrianh

Eish dude...It must be great to have all the answers. 

I prefer to stick to "$hit happens - deal with it"

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## tec0

> I prefer to stick to "$hit happens - deal with it"


Ah well with that I can agree.   :Applaud: 

And no I donât have all the answers.  :No:  If I did I would have been a Freemason with a nice new Lexus and a position of power at some large Mining group.  :Big Grin: 

Peace  :Flowers:

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## Butch Hannan

Who said the Freemasons had all the answers. Just remember that when people face great danger or imminent death they more often than not shout " Oh Lord please help me".
In those circumstances I doubt whether this is just a figure of speech.
Butch Hannan

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## tec0

It took a while but now we are on the same page. Yes people will scream those words probably out of desperation and hope that they would not suffer the coming events. How many of those people were rescued by letâs say âdivineâ intervention? 

Now I will be honest with you. In modern times there was only 2 accounts that that I know off. Now that sounds wonderful but what about the millions of unanswered cries for help? Not to mention the horrible crimes that happen to those that cannot protect themselves. 

See I donât believe in âdivinityâ in the same way you do. Now that is not to say I donât believe... It is just I know that it is every person from him or herself. Now in all probability I am wrong in saying that but the statement above reflects my experiences not yours.

It is because of my âpersonalâ life-lessons that I say we need to ban history and religion because these systems are not being used correctly. I am not saying that religion and history is bad. I am saying that it being abused at this point in time. Now you may not agree with me but it doesnât change the facts as shown in my previous posts.

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## adrianh

I'm in the process of reading "The God Delusion" by Richard Dawkins. I have also watched his documentary "Root of all Evil".

I agree with what he says. 

To quote Douglas Adams who says: "Isn't it enough to see that a garden is beautiful without having to believe that there are fairies at the bottom of it too?"

You know tec0, I agree with you. Children are indoctinated from birth to believe in one story book. Yet they are also told that fairies don't exist and that the "Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster" is a sure path to damnation. Children are told to take the story book at face value (this isn't actually quite true - they are told to blindly accept the interpretation  suitable to the circumstance that the parent / teacher is trying to portray). it is said that it is ok to stone a woman to death and that gays are going to go to the big KFC in the sky, yet in another place it says that you shouldn't kill. Anyway, the little kids of Muslim parents are taught a different story and so are the kids of each faction. By the time the kids are 16 they are unable to make up their own minds due to 16 years of brainwashing. Another stunning quote is this: "All kids are the same, they then grow up to be black and white".

What puzzles me is how people can blindly accept a set of stories collated by Emperor Constantine as the only truth, a truth that has no relationship with science, history or even basic physics. Yet those same people do not seem to believe in fairies, ufo's or unicorns. Seems that indoctrination at a young age ingraines so deeply that one becomes willing to do absolutely anything in the name of that belief.

I see the entire issue like this: The fact that a group of people agree that a certain belief system works for them does not give them the right to impose that system on others. I also think that the fact that a group of people hold certain beliefs does not make them true by virtue of number of believers. Remember - The world is flat and the earth is the centre of the universe.

"The Answer to the Great Question... Of Life, the Universe and Everything... Is... Forty-two,' said Deep Thought, with infinite majesty and calm." 
â Douglas Adams (The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy)

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Dave A (15-May-10), wynn (12-May-10)

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## tec0

The truth is nothing really matters anyway. Yes there are a lot of people seeding a lot of hate for a lot of reasons. Still I have found in my own studies that there is a lot we cannot explain. What is truth and what is fiction can only be solved if divinity itself intervenes.

As I said before I donât have all the answers. My best guess is do what you feel is right and be happy in your decision. If you find solace within your religion then who am I to discredit it. That being said people have the right to find and accept what works for them. 

More importantly History and Religion must not be a weapon rather a lesson or a comfort.

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