# General Business Category > Entrepreneurship and Business Management Forum >  Directors Nefarious Use Of Liquidation Process To Avoid Consequences Or Discovery

## Lawyer Destroyer

In this thread, I intend to debunk the myth that liquidators act in the best interests of the creditors and reveal to you all how they operate, what they do, how they get paid and ultimately what roles they play, this will include significant revelations about certain firms and certain lawyers who will be carefully referenced to ensure that forum rules are adhered to. In the meantime as I prepare to fly to Cape Town shortly, I will consider where to start on this fairly broad subject.

Please feel free to contribute -...

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Asterix (25-Oct-10)

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## KimH

I was personally affected by this very practice earlier this year - after raping a very profitable and viable group of companies, my ex employers filed for liquidation - many of my colleagues were left with nearly 3 months of unpaid salaries and all of them are patiently waiting for the liquidators to pay them what is due, call me cynical but somehow I doubt any of them will see a cent.

I look forward to reading your further postings on this.

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## Koos C

8 lawyers in 3 years and now my stuf aregoing to get sold to pay sombody else's debts. the liquidator was worned that it tools and assets do not belong to them but he just collect stuf to sell. Will plase the whole story later

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## Asterix

LD - There are a lot - an incredible amount of these happening - and it is just like fraudulent insurance claims - in concert with a supplier of retail goods.... a drain on the whole country. There are rumours that this is just a dirty revenue gathering excercise for some directors who work with lawyers and liquidators, planning the steps and executing them neatly. This is almost like daylight robbery and just about everyone I know has been affected - it's just another form of crime....

Look forward to reading your posts and information on this.

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## Dave A

Kim's probably got a fair gripe. Directors who plunder the company and then toss the scraps into liquidation should not be getting away with it easily.

But blaming things on the liquidator is a bit rich. The liquidator's job is to attend to the burial of a failed enterprise - as cost effectively as possible. If they burn cash on doing forensic audits sniffing for past transgressions just _sommer_, the creditors would be the very *first* bitching and moaning about the waste of cash.

If you know of hijinks, get hard evidence (or at least submit affadavits) to the Master. Attend the meetings of creditors and raise a stink there.

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## Lawyer Destroyer

Dave - fully agree - there are a lot of good liquidators who don't take nonsense from dodgy directors - many of them take their work seriously and take professional pride in what they do and the important role they play in business and the countries economy. But like every trade - there are always a few rotten eggs, low class characters, unscrupulous who simply use their powers (or don't) obscenely....

OK â Back from Cape Town and catching up. I asked around a bit on this saga and got a colleague who has some specialist access to have a quick glance and do some research for me as well. Asterix (and friend/s â fellow Gauls?) â You must push this particular issue into criminal charges, there are several reasons, some which I cannot share with you right now, but which will become clear later. There is an old maxim âseek and ye shall findâ¦â. You may not have the tools or the access at the moment, but there are those that do and they are already briefed and waiting in the wings â waiting and watchingâ¦..

This situation is going from Gray to Black very quickly. You need to determine initially if it is a Ponzi scheme or not. Once that is determined the way forward becomes very very clear â quickly. As I wrote earlier and presented a definition, you need to match this up to available information and facts â once established, the fun and games begin. From what I can see and from what I have gatheredâ¦â¦it smells like a Ponzi scheme, it sounds like a Ponzi scheme, and it clearly resembles a Ponzi scheme. This is a serious situation and needs to be treated seriously ok. People who commit these are always con artists with silver tongues, credible people who present well, convincing individuals who have support from their own family members and relatives, their own âinfrastructureâ â âvra my broer Jack, hy lieg net so hard soos ekâ¦.âwho for the large part have been compartmentalised and only have parts of the truthâ¦.. If your friend has not spent the money on a private investigator yet â now is an ideal timeâ¦.there are a number of really good ones and alongside a good reputable law firm are an arsenal and formidable force â . Next he/she must team up with the group who are already contesting/investigating the business collapse (unity is strength). Lastly â go in and see a member of the SAPS who deals with this type of action. Just ask at your local police station â they will point you in the right direction. This will prepare you for what you have to do next. Finally and I have PMâd you both a specific checklist. This is a dirty situation and you need to ensure that you stay and play by the rules all the time. There will be many opportunities to slide bases â take no shortcuts, just do this one step at a time, one day at a time. Remember if you sit by the river of life long enough the bodies of your enemies will eventually float by youâ¦..

In the greater scheme of things this is a small fry liquidation, but a very good example to be set especially from what I have seen and can gather. So, persist in your efforts and remember the words of Winston Churchill â Never, never,never,never, never, never give up.

I have asked a number of friends and colleagues to follow this particular case and we will send you a PM link to a separate location where we will give you the benefit of specialist advice (not professional mind you) as well as otherwise unobtainable information that your friend/s will find invaluable. We will not mention names or anything else â donât want the bad guys in this story knowing any more than they do ok.

As things develop I will let you know, but in the meantime, I want to rather focus on the other thread http://www.theforumsa.co.za/forums/s...ead.php?t=8355 to the benefit of the broader business community. It is a very sensitive subject and I am going to try and play it out as an educational process in steps. Please follow that one tooâ¦.it is important and will also reference several areas and information you and your friend may find applicable and useful.

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## Lawyer Destroyer

Ok â Lets Compare business in South Africa to a busy Nationwide road infrastructure, complete with car parks, service centers, garages, workshops, scrapyards, spare parts centers, panel beaters, licensing depots and even driver training schools and centersâ¦.. etc â The Companies Act is like the Road Transport Act, and gives us all the guide lines, stop streets, yellow lines, white lines, solid white lines, double white lines, one way signs and so on and so on. The Law provides regulatory back say like the TPA, the Traffic Department, etc. My previous description is applicable â quote South Africa is in a state business wise. You can compare RSA business to a free for all on the roads. The drivers (directors) aren't qualified in many cases, driving vehicles, too big, too fast and out of control. There's a lot of drunk driving taking place, unlicensed driving and buying and selling of stolen "vehicles" and parts that would blow your mind. If the RSA Government wants to do one thing to fix the economy, just one thing, it would be to tighten up its business Highways. License drivers (directors) effectively, train them proficiently - but most of all, punish them firmly, just like we do on the roads. What would we say if the highways were actually a free for all and there was pandemonium on the roads....bystanders getting hurt and killed, passengers, drivers and the public getting slaughtered...? well its actually happening on our business highways - and its appalling! No wonder no one wants to invest in our small to medium businesses, no wonder they call it Rip Off RSA, no wonder we are known as being scammers, second only to Nigeria - our business roads are in absolute chaos and very little is being done (I know 3 Kings is coming - too little too late...). A special task force is needed and most of all - efficient policing and jurisdictional enforcement.

( From another thread - http://www.theforumsa.co.za/forums/s...ead.php?t=8337  )

In this âbusinessâ mix you have all sorts of businesses â lets compare them to vehicles on the road -  extra heavy trucks and drivers (big companies) , taxiâs, construction vehicles, groups of vehicles, furniture removal trucks and small cars (which in many cases are likened to Closed Corporations â fast moving, low maintenance, low cost â for want of a better description âBudget Businessâ vehiclesâ¦).

Now â on these (very) busy business highways and bi ways â accidents, breakdowns and disaster WILL happen in the course of traveling and journeys. Unfortunately, the roads are not clear, in most cases the drivers arenât suitably qualified, most driving takes place in the dark with no lights (behind walls â hidden) and most accidents are not seen happening until the wreck is lying upside down on the side of the business road. To clear these up we have tow trucks â and in business â Liquidators (This description was originally introduced to me many years ago by a tutor at University when I first started out.  Tow truck drivers and Liquidators â virtually one and same.

What I would like to deal with here is what happens when one of the directors or business owners purposefully drives his business vehicle âoff the roadâ, when a director or business owner purposefully drives his vehicle into a bridge, when a director or business owner first strips and sells all the insides and removables from the vehicle (takes out the expensive radio, sells the tires and rims and puts some shoddy ones on, takes out every bit of the inside, even swops the motor â then crashes the vehicle and burns it â or declares it stolen and then burns it.  Just walks away after tearing the guts out of it with no regards for the owner, or the bank, or the garage, or the people who just serviced it, are still owed for the maintenance, the tires, the panel beatingâ¦..What happens if it is a bus load of passengers who have paid their fares and the driver crashes purposefully just outside Jhb so he doesnât have to take them all the way to Durban ??? â This is what I am talking about â a liquidation is a wreck â a Liquidator is a Tow Truck operator â and a lawyer, well just a lawyer â sometimes good â sometimes bad â always appoint like a tradesman â his reputation is only as good as his last 5 or 6 jobsâ¦.do your homework thoroughlyâ¦..

There is little insurance in small business for bad business so â and normally the passengers, investors or creditors end up footing the bill for the âdriversâ recklessness, abuse of the business vehicle, lack of administration , lack of maintenance, or just plain right dishonesty and intent to defraud everybody involved â and try and walk away â we will look at this carefully â and I welcome any input (good or bad) at any time from anyone.

So â now at least we have sketched the sceneâ¦â¦and hopefully any reader is on âthe same pageâ â busy highways and roads â the business arena, vehicles on the road -  businesses of all shapes and sizes; The Companies Act â The Road Transport Act, Directors and business owners â Drivers and vehicle owners, Liquidators â Tow Truck Drivers and wrecking companies, Lawyers â well just lawyers â¦.

So â just like the Tow Truck drivers you see parked on the side of the road at busy intersections, Liquidators also sit in wait and monitor businesses for collapse or wreck. You see they hook up to the wreck and then shunt it around just like a tow truck driver, either to the scrapyard, the panel beaters â or if someone has been derelict of duty or someone has been killed â to the Police Station for further investigation and criminal charges to be laid. Sometimes a liquidator(Tow Truck Driver) will be told in advance of a wreck going to happen, it may be from a friend of his who is a lawyer, in which case the client will have already spoken to his lawyer who he has told â I canât afford the payment on this vehicle anymoreâ and the lawyer will have said to him confidentially â just wreck it and take the insurance money â hereâs how you do itâ¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦  â¦â¦â¦â¦â¦. â and if anything goes wrong â I am here to defend youâ¦..sound familiar ?? I thought so - â¦..you see this actually happens â a lot â and itâs a plague.

I will continue with this later â but for now want to add for the benefit of any âpassengersâ like Kim, watch your drivers carefully at all times !! â monitor them â and keep tabs on them always â its your right as an employee, a passenger. Donât take their word for it â speak amongst each other and donât wait for the wreck â at the first sign of trouble âTake Actionâ. âBlow the whistleâ â get the driver back on track. DONâT HESITATE â HE WHO HESITATES IS LOSTâ¦.

No business collapses overnightâ¦..it starts with a âsneezeâ and develops through flu like symptoms into Pneumonia before becoming terminalâ¦â¦When you hear a business sneeze, recognise a symptom that things arenât well or you know things are not right â âBlow The Whistleâ  - and by this I mean first â seek counsel, use this forum â Dave Alcock has created a âKnights of the round tableâ trouble shooters forum, where if you put your problem up â and you donât have to name names â you will get the benefit of good, realistic, practical opinion and guidance from many quarters. This â is what this forum can doâ¦.it can help straighten the business highways, it can alert the âbusiness traffic policeâ to drunken driving, reckless driving and any other business road sins â and prevent a wreck before it happens. And prevention is always better than cureâ¦..hereâs what you can do as an employee â You can save the Titanic from sinking (your business from being liquidated - point out the problems â ask for help and if no one wants to listen â get guidanceâ¦â¦

The best piece of practical âbusinessâ safety equipment to avoid a wreck (liquidation) is an alert and attentive employee....

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## Koos C

This morning I got the liquidators report. Apparently there were a meeting held on feb but non of the creditors were notified of this. The seconda meeting was held in may and again non of the creditors was notified of the meeting. 
I have a high court judgment against this company that concerns two properties and R500k + but the liquidator disregard my claim. According to reg 80 of the liquidation act I must give my permision in writing to athorize the sale of the propertry but the liquidator did not contact me in this regaurd 

where do I go to report a liquidater who is braking the law nowingly ???




> 8 lawyers in 3 years and now my stuf aregoing to get sold to pay sombody else's debts. the liquidator was worned that it tools and assets do not belong to them but he just collect stuf to sell. Will plase the whole story later

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## Lawyer Destroyer

Koos C I have PM'd you details....

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## Lawyer Destroyer

A lot of people have pm'd me to ask when I will continue this thread. The answer people is soon. I have a high case load at present and am also assisting a private investigation which started on this Forum - great tool Dave A. Bringing people together. It has surprised me just how much information has surfaced from the few references to this Dr DS Grieve Ponzi Scheme case on this board and I am impressed by the amount of volunteers willing to provide, share and give information, advice and even assistance. This is a very useful and largely underestimated resource to anyone in the legal field as well as anyone with a business related problem - 

I will continue this shortly - probably within the next two or three weeks. I want to make it inspirational, encouraging and educational.

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## ReliaGains

I have very basic question with regards to the employer's ability to abuse the liquidation process.

I received an award from the CCMA related to a matter involving an unscrupuloius CEO.  Long story short...the company informed me that they would be taking the matter for review with the labour court, started the process, but after the first step they indicated that they would be liquidating.

We tried to arrange for meetings with the liquidator since April (without success) and just found out the company had changed it's name and landed anew contract.  The company profile uses the "old" company's history, trademarks and copyrights. The methodologies and most of the writings are materially the same.  The old and new profiles are essentially identical. The new name does not exist on CIPRO, but the "old" company shows as being in force and, bothe profiles mentions that the business was known by the same name in years gone by.

The Question:  Is the use of the this information allowed, if the old company had been liquidated, or am I right in my view that these companies are on and the same entities?

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## Lawyer Destroyer

Reliagains - credit to you for standing up. It is called or termed a "Phoenix Company" and provided it meets the criteria can be treated as the original in event of transgression of the law or investigation. Suggest you drop an anonymous line to the Registrar CIPRO and make sure they see that you have copied it to several other regulatory bodies - INSOL is a good one to copy to as well as the Chamber of Commercer (or at least the law firm that represents them in SA) .

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## ReliaGains

Thank you very much.  I will do this immediately.

I hope that I am not hijacking this topic, but I have investigated the story a bit further and found some interesting "goings-on".  Before the company was liquidated in March 2010, the name was actually changed in November 2009.  However, the company issued with a letter in December and made a submission to the labour court in February, all in the "old" name.

I also have not been informed about anything regarding creditors meetings, or anything else, nor am I able to trace the liquidator.

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Lawyer Destroyer (25-Nov-10)

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## Dave A

> I also have not been informed about anything regarding creditors meetings, or anything else, nor am I able to trace the liquidator.


I have a few debtors that fall in that category. If you manage to contact the responsible person, you're told the company is in liquidation. 

After some time without notices, you investigate and it turns out there's been no application for liquidation. The company is just a stripped shell waiting for someone to be stupid enough to apply for liquidation and effectively finance the tying of the bow that clears the mess away.

And then I have one international company that was liquidated in the UK - none of the local creditors got a look in anywhere in that process.

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## sterne.law@gmail.com

In terms of labour issues where a company dissappears, closes or liquidates, there is provision for what is called piercing the corporate veil. Funny enough such a thread was started in the labour forum about a week ago.
Of course the issue is that inevetiably legal action costs money and so it is that the employee or smaller person does not press on and loses out. Deciding the battle is not worth it. Unfortunately, employers or businesses who use liquidating as a means out are street smart and dont intend being fair or morale. (a thought to bear in mind is that a defendent or respondent can ask the plaintiff to put up security for costs subject to certain criteria, insolvency being one of them) Asking for R100 000 in security often gets teh tune changed!!! :Fence:  :Taz: 

Again one can argue that they hide behind or use smart lawyers to pull these "stunts" but as Dave points out they are merely doing their job. If every lawyer acted based on what they believed to be morally right - there would be no lawyers or litigation :EEK!:   The lawyer is tasked with getting the result the client seeks

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## Lawyer Destroyer

I always wait for an opportune moment to quote this 

It is opportune... :Smile: 

*Famous Quotes / Quotations*
The quotes from King Henry VI are amongst Shakespeare's most famous including 'The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers'. Details of this famous quote follows, 

*"The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers".* - (Act IV, Scene II). :Fence:  :Thumbup:

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## Lawyer Destroyer

Reliagains,

Copy it to CIPRO in basic information fashion - and also to Werksmans Attorneys fao Mr Eric Levenstein - but send *as much info as you can* - send it all - mark it Private and Confidential to him.....


http://www.werksmans.co.za/people/28...Dgcq6U2IjACDxg




> Thank you very much.  I will do this immediately.
> 
> I hope that I am not hijacking this topic, but I have investigated the story a bit further and found some interesting "goings-on".  Before the company was liquidated in March 2010, the name was actually changed in November 2009.  However, the company issued with a letter in December and made a submission to the labour court in February, all in the "old" name.
> 
> I also have not been informed about anything regarding creditors meetings, or anything else, nor am I able to trace the liquidator.

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## Sharron

Hi There, my ex- employer, liquidated his company because he never paid VAT, or registred any employees at SARS, the company just continued under another new name
But it trades under the product name that the consumers buy
How does this work , is it fraud or what?

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## Lawyer Destroyer

There is a lot of following on various aspects pertaining to liquidations and the duties of parties therein - specifically the Liquidators -  and many people have contacted me and asked this question (several in direct relation to the liquidation and thread on *Dr DS Grieve* specifically  http://www.theforumsa.co.za/forums/s...s-in-RSA/page8):-

*"Does the Liquidator have a duty to recommend criminal prosecution?"*

The answer is forthcoming direct from *The Act* itself:-

*Companies Act, 1973, (No. 61 of 1973)
Chapter XIV: Winding-up of Companies
Duties of Liquidators
400. Liquidator's duty to expose offences and to report thereon*


1)        A liquidator shall examine the affairs and transactions of the company before its winding-up in order to ascertain-

a)        whether any of the directors and officers or past directors and officers of the company have contravened or appear to have contravened any provision of this Act or have committed or appear to have committed any other offence; and

b)        in respect of any of the persons referred to in paragraph (a), whether there are or appear to be any grounds for an order by the Court under section 219 disqualifying a director from office as such.

2)        A liquidator shall, before lodging his final account with the Master, submit to him a report containing full particulars of any such contraventions or offences, suspected contraventions or offences and any such ground which he has ascertained.

3)        

a)        Any report submitted to the Master under subsection (2) shall be confidential and shall not be available for inspection by any person.

b)        If any such report contains particulars of contraventions or offences committed or suspected to have been committed or of any of the said grounds, the Master shall forthwith transmit a copy thereof to the Attorney-General concerned.

4)        A liquidator shall conduct such further investigation and shall render such assistance in connection with any prosecution or contemplated prosecution as the Master or the Attorney-General may require. 

referenced:-

http://www.acts.co.za/company/compan...rt_thereon.htm


I would be very very surprised if the liquidators in the saga concerning DR DS Grieve failed to recommend a criminal investigation and prosecution supporting those made by other interested parties. Whilst I have not seen the specific evidences referred to in many instances, I have spoken with a number of the creditors and concerned parties and taking into account the statement by Bart Henderson, the Head of The South African Corporate Fraud Management Institute, that alone should suffice.

It is a dereliction of duty not to recommend a criminal investigation and prosecution in an instance where there are so many "Red flags" flying in the wind all simultaneously.

In the case of Dr DS Grieve (and others) who appear to have liquidated and simultaneously sequestrated, I would like to remind the creditors that there is a special provision which should not be overlooked:-

*Companies Act, 1973, (No. 61 of 1973)
Chapter XIV: Winding-up of Companies
Personal Liability of Delinquent Directors and Others and Offences
425. Application of criminal provisions of the law relating to insolvency* 

If any person who is or was a director or officer of a company in respect of which a winding-up order has been granted, whether or not such order has been discharged or confirmed under the provisions of this Act, and which is or was unable to pay its debts, has committed any act or made any omission in relation to any assets, books, records, documents, business or the affairs of such company, which act or omission, if such act had been committed or such omission had been made *by a person whose estate was sequestrated on the date upon which the winding-up of such company commenced, in relation to his assets, books, documents, business or affairs, or those of his estate, would have constituted an offence under the law relating to insolvency, such past or present director or officer shall be guilty of such offence and liable on conviction to the penalties provided therefor in the said law relating to insolvency, and all the provisions of the said law relating to insolvency shall mutatis mutandis apply in respect of such act or omission, the method of establishing the same, and such past or present director or officer charged with the same.*

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## Lawyer Destroyer

To any victims of fraud - this site gives a full description on next actions - so read it carefully and think carefully - prepare it and do it.

From memory (and a recent snippet just in which I will publish on another thread Directors Duties and Liabilities under Whistleblower section of this forum). Most of Grieve's victims have been defrauded out of in excess of R100,000.00  .....

This opens a particular route - and I recommend to the victims that they band together to do this - just get one of the victims to play head conductor and orchestrate....

http://www.whitecollarcrime.co.za/in...-to-the-police

This details reporting a fraud by a director in excess of R100,000.00 to the police in terms of Section 34 of Prevention and Combating of Corrupt Activities - öf "The Act"

I will quote the entire article later - it is by Basil Carlston and to be found on the white collar crime site www.whitecollarcrime.co.za under articles -  But well worth a read - it carries  a mandatory sentence in event the matter is not reported as well.....

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## Biggles1212

Hi,

I worked with a company who dismissed me unfairly. There were also a number of other illegal deductions made one of which was the non transfer of my pension fund to the fund. It took almost a year just to get paid my provident fund back. After I won the case at the CCMA and the appeals were dismissed, the company the applied for the labour court to review the case on 28 MARCH 2011. I opposed it and have labour lawyers looking into the process to speed it up. While trying to collect the illegal deductions the company gave a letter to the sheriff stating they had liquidated the company in APRIL 2011 and transferred assets to a new company and the sheriff had no right to collect any of the assets. In terms of the dismissal case the award is substantial and with interest is already in the region of R250K. While the case might be in review at the labour court, from your posts it appears that I should have been kept abreast of matters and that the transfer of assets is a ploy to avoid paying up. Unfortunately I have also since found out the company owes many other company vast sums of money.

How do I go forward form here. Is there anyone in specific I can report the matter to?
Can I have them investigated. Fortunately I am working and financially able to take the matter further. I would also like to know if I have to incur legal cost can it then be added to what they already owe me to pay back? I believe they are being criminal and it all looks very orchestrated and while I would love to see the owner safely behind bars where he can't destroy people lives anymore, I'd be happy just to collect the money and move on. Unfortunately the owner has quite a reputation already, I only found out too late. This may also not be the first time this has happened. The company ran under a different name before and went through similar problems, I don't know the detail.

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## Lawyer Destroyer

Biggles,

It sounds to me vaguely as if the business has been resurrected specifically to circumvent insolvency and to accommodate assets and workflow during a liquidation or insolvency. This is called a Phoenix company. You have to prove it if you want to challenge it. The onus and burden of proof is on you - if you want to challenge it ok.

If you do - collate ALL the information you have into a fully and neatly laid out affidavit with referenced attachments. If you cannot do it to accepted legal standard that's fine - do it to best possible standard. Just don't go and dump a lever arch file, a bundle or an A4 box of scraps and bits which are unexplained before a lawyer. He won't know a Mona Lisa from a car wash flyer ok.

Then, if you are satisfied and have assembled your evidence - even if it is just reasoning and reasons - take it  to a reputable lawyer - in this case the one I have in mind and who I have dealt with over years is Eric Levenstein - specifically because of his close ties with INSOL - I did send you a full PM with other - very important instructions as well.

http://www.werksmans.co.za/people/28/Eric-Levenstein

Present your case and ask him what next. It may be as simple as a formal complaint through INSOL, but it may also be a legal action which he can structure and advise you on....

LD




> Hi,
> 
> I worked with a company who dismissed me unfairly. There were also a number of other illegal deductions made one of which was the non transfer of my pension fund to the fund. It took almost a year just to get paid my provident fund back. After I won the case at the CCMA and the appeals were dismissed, the company the applied for the labour court to review the case on 28 MARCH 2011. I opposed it and have labour lawyers looking into the process to speed it up. While trying to collect the illegal deductions the company gave a letter to the sheriff stating they had liquidated the company in APRIL 2011 and transferred assets to a new company and the sheriff had no right to collect any of the assets. In terms of the dismissal case the award is substantial and with interest is already in the region of R250K. While the case might be in review at the labour court, from your posts it appears that I should have been kept abreast of matters and that the transfer of assets is a ploy to avoid paying up. Unfortunately I have also since found out the company owes many other company vast sums of money.
> 
> How do I go forward form here. Is there anyone in specific I can report the matter to?
> Can I have them investigated. Fortunately I am working and financially able to take the matter further. I would also like to know if I have to incur legal cost can it then be added to what they already owe me to pay back? I believe they are being criminal and it all looks very orchestrated and while I would love to see the owner safely behind bars where he can't destroy people lives anymore, I'd be happy just to collect the money and move on. Unfortunately the owner has quite a reputation already, I only found out too late. This may also not be the first time this has happened. The company ran under a different name before and went through similar problems, I don't know the detail.

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## Lawyer Destroyer

Biggles,

further to the above - this may well interest you:-

[1]	In the winding-up of companies liquidators occupy a position of trust, not only towards creditors but also the companies in liquidation whose assets vests in them. Liquidators are required to act in the best interests of creditors. A liquidator should be wholly independent, should regard equally the interests of all creditors, and should carry out his or her duties without fear, favour or prejudice.  referenced here today:- 
http://www.google.co.za/url?sa=t&sou...LrHtIIPRWBDAeg

*THE SUPREME COURT OF APPEAL
REPUBLIC OF SOUTH AFRICA 

JUDGMENT

Case no: 103/09


THE STANDARD BANK OF SOUTH AFRICA		 	        	      Appellant

and

THE MASTER OF THE HIGH COURT		       	               First Respondent
(EASTERN CAPE DIVISION)

BASIL BRIAN NEL                                                                 Second Respondent
MICHAEL LEO DE VILLIERS                                    		   Third Respondent
__________________________________________________  ______________*

Neutral citation:	Standard Bank v The Master of the High Court (103/09) [2010] ZASCA 4 (19 February 2010)

CORAM:		Navsa, Ponnan, Maya, Snyders JJA and Griesel AJA

HEARD:		19 November 2009
DELIVERED:	19 February 2010
CORRECTED:	

*SUMMARY:		Liquidators occupying position of trust towards creditors and companies in liquidation ─ required to be independent and to regard equally the interest of all creditors ─ expected to carry out their duties without fear, favour or prejudice ─ standard not met ─ liquidators removed and fees reduced.*

but - it does take a bit of stamina and endurance ok.

*"There is no vulture or Jackal as ruthless or callous as an untrustworthy or dishonest liquidator in life..."* 

- anonymous (although I have heard it said by a number of my learned friends). LD

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## Dave A

> the company gave a letter to the sheriff stating they had liquidated the company in APRIL 2011 and transferred assets to a new company and the sheriff had no right to collect any of the assets.


That's the bit that needs a close look, particularly as (by my understanding) all transactions (particularly asset transfers) up to 6 months prior to application for liquidation can be reviewed and reversed if found to "questionable."

Not sure I've put this very well, but if that transfer of assets you referred to was dodgy, there may be scope to pursue the matter.

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## Lawyer Destroyer

Biggles,

Strange as it may seem, if you have sufficient evidence of wrongdoing and you feel justified (just make sure and test your info carefully) even if a liquidator is involved, there is nothing that stops you filing an affidavit under section 34 of the PCCA and requesting the SAPS to investigate the matter provided you can justify the threshold limit of R100k. Read this very recent press release by Dave Loxton of Werksmans http://news.za.msn.com/white-collar-...ease-werksmans 

So, there is one avenue - if you need a draft affidavit - PM me. They are pretty standard and straight forward - just quote the act and consequences of not reporting as well as the evidential trail and then swear and submit.  LD

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## Lawyer Destroyer

I am so fed up with bad directors, business heads, and key persons and the staggering amount of fraud taking place. RSA is fast declining in the worlds eyes and fast becoming a place to avoid doing any business with except on a strictly cash up front basis. SA businessmen, especially professionals, are fast earning an unwanted and sometimes unwarranted stigma of simple dishonesty. I recently attended a large seminar and every single person who attended commented how they were involved in investigating, examining or advising on mass dishonesty or fraud. A crying shame. 
Unique circumstances call for unique answers and one of the answers I feel needs closer examination and one that I am personally advocating and recommending is the Fit & Proper Persons Declaration by any business head or owner  especially Directors.
The UK are now following this model successfully and Australia and New Zealand are close behind, the USA is already entrenched. Why not RSA ? the answer to me is simple, I just dont deal with companies where the principals and directors do not have fully completed and verifiable Fit & Proper Persons Declarations  honest men and women have nothing to fear. This should be absolutely mandatory for any Director and even investors and shareholders should be authenticated properly (inserts a link break in the chain of the Blackmarket economy).

For your information, the FSB uses this approach for its credit rating agencies and I firmly believe that in terms of holding a company and its Director/s responsible so should every honest businessman in RSA  after all  

*Fraud is just like aids in a lot of  respects..the main one being you will get it from somebody you get into bed with .*

You should know exactly who you are getting involved with especially in business  remember time spent on a reconnaissance is seldom wasted.

Just my opinion, but if someone isnt willing to have ready and provide the answers the following questions or cant  walk away and thank your lucky stars. *Listening to this will probably save you time money and heartache  so read it again.*

Every established company should at least make this requirement mandatory for new appointments or promotions.


*QUESTIONNAIRE TO BE COMPLETED IN RESPECT OF DIRECTORS, SENIOR
MANAGERS AND KEY EMPLOYEES* 
1. Personal details of the director, senior manager or key employee in respect of which
this questionnaire is being completed:
1.1. Surname and title:
1.2. Full first name(s):
1.3. Any previous surname(s) or first name(s):
1.4. Indicate the proposed position to be held, e.g. director or managing director:
1.5. Effective date of appointment (where applicable):
1.6. Residential address and telephone number:
1.7. Postal address:
1.8. Previous residential address(es) during the previous 5 years:
1.9. Nationality
Date of birth: 
Place of birth:
RSA Identity Document number (attach a certified
copy):
Passport number: 
Expiry date:
Country of issue: 
1.10. Nationality and indicate how it was acquired (e.g. birth, naturalisation or
marriage):
1.11. Professional qualification(s), the year(s) when, and the institution(s) at which,
this was acquired (may be provided in separate sheet):
1.12. Attach completed Personal Credential Verification Forms for purposes of the
background screening of each director, senior manager or key employee. The
said forms are obtainable from the Financial Services Board.
1.13. Attach detailed curriculum vitae.
2. General details in respect of the individual proposing to become a director, senior
manager or key employee:
2.1. State in what capacity you are completing this document, i.e. as a current or
prospective director (executive or non-executive), senior manager or key
employee. State full job title and describe the particular duties and
responsibilities:
2.2. Significant shareholding history (including indirect holdings) over at least the
last five years (including only those holdings which provided you a significant
influence over the operations and affairs of the entity)
3. Specific test to assess fitness and probity
If any answers to any of these questions is yes please provide details on
separate pages or in the space provided with proper referencing
3.1 Have you ever been subject to any proceedings of a disciplinary or criminal
nature, or have been notified of any impending proceedings or of any
investigation, which might lead to such proceedings?
3.2 Have you, or any business in which you have had controlling interest or have
exercised influence, been investigated, disciplined, suspended or criticized by a
regulatory or professional body, a court or tribunal, whether publicly or privately?
3.3Have you ever been associated, in ownership or management capacity, with a
company, partnership or other business association that has been refused
registration, authorization, membership or a license to conduct trade, business or
profession, or has had that registration, authorization, membership or license
revoked, withdrawn or terminated?
3.4 As a result of the removal of the relevant license, registration or other
authority mentioned in question 3 above, have you ever been refused the right to
carry on a trade, business or profession requiring a license, registration or other
authorization?
3.5 Have you ever been subject of any justified complaint relating to regulated
activities?
3.6 Have you ever been charged or convicted of any criminal offence, particularly
an offence relating to dishonesty, fraud, forgery, uttering a forged document,
perjury any financial crime or other criminal acts or been involved in acts of
serious financial or other misconduct?
3.7 Have you ever contravened any of the requirements and standards of a
regulatory body, professional body, government or its agencies?
3.8 Have you ever been a director, partner, or otherwise involved in the
management of a business that has gone into curatorship, insolvency or
liquidation while you have been connected with that business or within one year
after that connection?
3.9 Have you ever been dismissed, asked to resign or resigned, from
employment or from a position of trust, fiduciary appointment or similar because
of questions about your honesty and integrity?
3.10 Have you ever been disqualified, under the Companies Act, 2008 or its
predecessor or any other financial services legislation or regulation the object of
which is the protection of the public against financial loss from acting as a
director or serving in a managerial capacity?
3.11 Have you ever been diagnosed as being mentally ill or unstable?
3.12 Have you ever been disciplined by a professional, trade or regulatory body,
or dismissed or requested to resign from any position or office for negligence,
incompetence or mismanagement?
3.13 Have you ever been the subject of any adverse judgment or award, in South
Africa or elsewhere that remains outstanding or was not satisfied within a
reasonable period?
3.14 Have you ever made any arrangements or composition with your creditors,
filed for bankruptcy, been adjudged bankrupt, had your assets sequestrated, or
been involved in proceedings relating to any of these?
3.15 Have you ever been a senior officer of a company or a shareholder in a
position to exercise influence in the company that:
(a) Has been the subject of any adverse judgment or award, in South Africa or
elsewhere, which remains outstanding or was not satisfied within a reasonable
period?
(b) Has, in South Africa or elsewhere, made any arrangements or composition
with its creditors, filed for bankruptcy, been adjudged bankrupt, had assets
sequestrated, or been involved in proceedings relating to any of the foregoing?

3.16 Do you have reasons to believe that any of your close relatives or business
associates, if subject to the above tests, would have responded by a Yes to any
of these questions?

These questions courtesy of the FSB  

http://www.pmg.org.za/files/policy/1...quirements.pdf

*Integrity without knowledge is weak and useless, and knowledge without integrity is dangerous and dreadful.* *Samuel Johnson*
English author, critic, & lexicographer (1709 - 1784)

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