# Social Category > The Whistleblower Forum >  Big pharma's 'satanic' plot is genocide

## iLLuDeano

http://mg.co.za/article/2014-01-16-m...ot-is-genocide

So let's get this subject rolling. i know very little about what is happening in the Pharma business. Although this article did raise my eyebrows and I would certainly like some insight as to why only now in South Africa of all countries is someone making a statement like this. It impacts more that just South Africans. To me this is a whistleblower's attempt to wake people up.  :Smile:

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## adrianh

I think that the government is being absurd as usual. So, if I develop a wonderful new pair of underpants that stops anybody from getting Aids then I must give up my IP so that the government can give it to the masses...I think not. The government seems to think that everybody must just hand things over because they want it aka Zim.

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## AndyD

I think the government is spot on.




> In a framework for policy, the department notes and recommends, among other things, that:
> 
> *    Provision should be made for the compulsory licensing of crucial drugs at the lower of two typical rates of payment. This would allow the state to assign the right to make a drug to a third party with only limited compensation to the owner;
> *    Provision should be made for the parallel importation of drugs. This denies drug companies the opportunity to charge more for a drug in South African than elsewhere in the world because it could be imported from the lower-price territory, whether the patent owner approved or not;
> *    Patents for drugs should be conditional on an examination to ensure that the drug is new or innovative, and should not be automatically granted;
> *    Generally, "patent flexibility" for medicine should be made a matter of law;
> *    The holders of intellectual property rights, such as drug companies, should be encouraged to protect their own rights rather than depending on state institutions, such as the police or customs, to do so; and
> *    South Africa should seek to influence the region, and the world, to move towards its vision of intellectual property protection.
> 
> ...


I'm not surprised the drug cartels are up in arms about the governments proposed legislation. They've been abusing the copyrighting and IP system for decades by making minor alterations to drug formulations in order to artificially prevent expiry of copyrights, why should they stop now? Also there's nothing they'd hate worse than not having taxpayer funded resources at their beck and call such as the police and customs to protect their price rigging business model and artifically inflated prices determined on geographical basis.

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## pmbguy

Slightly off post, but I wish to include my personal experience and sentiment regarding the medical industry. 

I studied psychology for many years with the intent of becoming a psychologist, after which one would naturally (if you clever), study pharmacology to prescribe scheduled drugs. I got my bachelors Cum Laude and I have 2 modules to complete for honours. I stopped to do business full time, but more importantly I stopped because of personal misgivings of the industry generally and doing it day to day personally.  

We are fools to time.... in the same way as mercury and tobacco were advocated as beneficial in the past. My concern and ultimate rejection of mind altering drugs is exactly that: It alters one mind, all of it. Sure it may elevate or remove negative behaviour along the way, but at the same time it changes everything else. It should only be used in extreme cases. It should not be a normal legitimate solution and used as ubiquitously as it is. 

Once we know more about the brain my position may change.

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## pmbguy

Psychoactive drugs is what I was referring to specifically in my post above.

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## pmbguy

Government might be spot on, but who will do the negotiation...? I am afraid that other states and their pharma-corps view us as an easy target. For an example of how we are perceived we only have to look back at Mantu Shabalala Msimang and her veg fiasco. Mvetu.... sweet patato shaya e aids, vuti e garlic. For fuck sakes. 

In 1994 we gained freedom....which was a justifiable result in the book. If we had to ask Wouter Basson though... he might mention that the US (our former partner until the mid 80’s) recognises our weakness and calls us “friend” for obvious economic reasons. It’s a shame they allowed China to be our master though. In their minds they could push any new drug and make it work through “legitimate” means (In SA and everywhere else). Big pharma in the US has thousands of lobbyists working away, for bad and for worse. Thoughts of the product’s efficacy are superseded by potential price, a price they wish to kill us with (No pun intended)

But don t get too conspiralogical too fast. Apart from price the tec is mostly legit. It’s their capitalism against ours. Just wish we had more Aaron Motsoaledi’s to negotiate better terms.

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## tec0

There are billions of people on the face or the earth each with some type of medical need. So how can pharmaceutical companies not profit? Example my medication cost me R600 per month for 30 pills. That is 1 pill for each day... 

Without these pills I die a painful agenizing death I will slowly suffocate while going into a blind panic and eventually lose consciousness while gasping for air then death. 

There is no generic alternative and skipping on my pills is a massive dangerous gamble. Now according to the internet there is over half a million people suffering from the same dangerous illness so lets consider that they make give or take over three billion six hundred million per year how much of that is profit I dont know I feel that they can make the medication cheaper wouldnt you agree?

But I mean nothing to them... If I die a slow painful scary death they dont care because I am but one person out of a half a million other paying customers. Why would they care?

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## adrianh

I think its total rubbish. Pharmaceutical companies develop products to make money, for no other reason. They are not charities, they are not the salvation army, they spend huge amounts of money and time to develop their products, why should they not profit. Tec, if you lived 100 years ago you would have died from your terrible ailment, you are kept alive artificially because they developed the drugs, pay or die, that's the way of the world.

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## pmbguy

Holy Shit Adrian you harsh, but so is reality.


Psychoactive drugs

Although I was still far from becoming a psychologist, masters then pharmacology to prescribe, I feel the prescription of psychoactive drugs is fraught with bullshit. To rack up counselling hours I spent 1 day a week for 2 years as an assistant counsellor at UNISA. Our mandate was to counsel, but mostly we assisted with the practicalities of career choice and module selection. My superior at the time was a very wise man (Psychologist) he enlightened me on many of the false presumptions of medicine. Especially regarding clinical, which was my direction. To clarify: You get various types of psychologists, a counselling psychologist deals with people who are encountering normal adjustment issues (Normal problems), divorce, work etc.  A clinical psychologist deals with pathology, the abnormal, the crazy. (The comments you read do not necessarily represent those of UNISA or any of their staff). I immersed myself in the literature.  Literature that discussed chemical treatment (Meds) I found to be at the least inaccurate, at the worst plain dangerous. There is this system where drugs get cleared to “assist” a certain ailment...but some might even reduce cognitive ability by e.g. 20%. You may feel better, but you will never feel happy or sad. You live in limbo no more potential for catharsis. My scepticism grew. I no longer accepted the MO for many treatments. I wrote essays which reflected my scepticism. The responses from the lecturers were mixed. Despite their harsh analysis and often negative judgement of my text I got good marks, backing up my arguments. I felt then as I feel now. A drug might as a matter of course relieve a symptom, however it relieves that symptom by changing everything related and unrelated to the symptom. It’s like using an atomic bomb to help stop theft. Sure it will stop the shoplifting but it will also destroy the very infrastructure that makes legitimate shopping possible. 

We know far too little about the brain. Using a drug to change the way a brain functions in order to assist in the subtraction of an unwanted behaviour is negligent and plain barbaric. At its least its inappropriate, at its worst it represents a chemical lobotomy.

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## sterne.law@gmail.com

It's capitalism, people start business to make money. Pharmaceuticals cost big bucks to research and develop. Not every development gets to market.
Start limiting profit and companies will cut the costs by doing less testing, not a good situation. Or, if a line is not producing profit, I will can it, or limit it, using resources for higher profit lines. Again bad situation.
Government taking over? Yeah right, they can't even get standard medicine to the hospitals on time.
Perhaps, where there is really only one medicine, with absolutely no alternative, then perhaps, some interference may be plausible, although probably subsidising. However, reality, it's a bit like legal fees, you either can or you can't. A R500 medicine reduced to R300 will probably still be out of range of the exact same amount of people, or the percentile of people who would then be able purchase will probably not be much.


The IP needs tightening up, the parts where the company makes small change etc then registers new patent.

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tec0 (17-Jan-14)

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## pmbguy

Look medicine can be free/cheap. Cuba is a good example, however in this specific example you have to take context into consideration. Everything is totally fct in Cuba, but the medical system. 

To link in with Anthony, for meds to advance you need money, money to pay for that advancement. If its free somebody has to pay. Subsidising by government with regards to development, production and eventual free distribution will still come at a cost somewhere. This will also reduce the benefit of having pharma competing. The incentive for development would be lost.

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## tec0

> I think its total rubbish. Pharmaceutical companies develop products to make money, for no other reason. They are not charities, they are not the salvation army, they spend huge amounts of money and time to develop their products, why should they not profit. Tec, if you lived 100 years ago you would have died from your terrible ailment, you are kept alive artificially because they developed the drugs, pay or die, that's the way of the world.


I don't think I will be viewing another post of you again...

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## tec0

Actually wanted to edit my post but found it edited for me. 

I wish a few other post would get the same treatment but I suspect that it is only ok for some people to be harsh. That said I spoke to a friend of mine that lives in another country so I normally only get to chat to him at midnight or near morning hours. 

He told me about a system they have in their lab. Basically it can identify every substance within a sample not only what the substance is but the amounts. This enable them to recreate a compound of almost any type. 

So since it is all about money... Why not use such systems to duplicate medication and just sent the patent laws to the burner that way we get to produce the medication needed and the money stays within the country. 

Simple truth if profit cannot respect life why must life respect profit? Screw that... 

If people doesn't have a right to life then why must companies have a right to profit that is basically "there livelihood"

In short it is called mutual respect and if you can't apply that in business then your business will go down the drain. Simple truth if you cannot respect a person why must that person place a order with you? Customer walks find someone else...

And just sometimes the customer gets the stuff they need and start to manufacture thus cutting your business out and removing you from there needs completely...

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## AndyD

> It's capitalism, people start business to make money. Pharmaceuticals cost big bucks to research and develop. Not every development gets to market.
> Start limiting profit and companies will cut the costs by doing less testing, not a good situation. Or, if a line is not producing profit, I will can it, or limit it, using resources for higher profit lines.


I don't have a problem with the inventor of a product having a time-limited market advantage which allows him to recoup the R&D costs and set himself up in a position to monetize his product. Without this advantage r&d wouldn't be financially viable and invention would be stifled, this is what the copyright, patent and IP system should be doing.

The problem is what the copyright and IP laws have evolved into. The length of time has become way too long and the scope of protection has become way too broad which is now in itself stifling further innovation. It's giving companies who own the 'rights' to products so much protection they can hold the world to ransom for decades for their own excessive financial gain and allowng them to dictate where the product can and can't be used or applied and usually to the detriment of society as a whole. It also allows the perpetuation of outdated business models and monopolies due to the unfair advantage afforded to them.

This is all a result of continuous lobbying and mission creep. Many of these companies will spend far more on lobbying to extend their copyrights and patents on their existing products than they do on R&D of new products because gradually hacking away and getting the laws bent and eventually rewritten in their favour is far more profitable than innovating and brnging new products to market.  





> The IP needs tightening up, the parts where the company makes small change etc then registers new patent.


With the lobbyists given the amount of free reign they have to basically bribe their way to new laws and the blatant abuse of even the existing laws by the drug cartels going unchecked I don't see any tightening of these laws in the near future. Even enforcing the existing laws and checking the blatant abuse would be a step in the right direction at the moment.

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Blurock (18-Jan-14)

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## AndyD

> Actually wanted to edit my post but found it edited for me. 
> 
> I wish a few other post would get the same treatment but I suspect that it is only ok for some people to be harsh.


I won't censor or any views on a topic that's being debated no matter how harsh they may seem or even how strongly I disagree with them. The only exception might be if there were laws against a particular view (such as preaching holocaust denial, racism, sexism etc) and even this would be sometimes be under duress.

On the other hand comments that are made about another member are removed as soon as their seen or reported. If other members make personal or defamatory comments about yourself the same will apply if they're seen or reported.

I know the issues being discussed are emotive but please address the opinions and not the people making them.

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Dave A (21-Jan-14)

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## sterne.law@gmail.com

The push to shore up IP issues here in SA is seemingly gaining some momentum.
The lobbying aside, there is probably a bit of fear. Every government knows they need the meds, and there must be some fear, ( and probably threats)that if we piss the drug guys off they will say, ok, we won't make that, or we will limit that. The people will turn against government and not the company.
 recouping costs, the developer still has certain advantages even if patent period is shortened.  They can release their drug into the market as a generic 2/3 years before the patent expires, thus establishing a foothold, and obviously they have a zero development cost which means they can enter at a power price.

On a separate, yet linked issue, is actual pricing. If you see the price through medical aids and compare it to across the counter, the price is huge. Across the counter the meds may be R600, yet dispensed via a medical aid (the customer), it may be R400, as an example.

Having thought of this, perhaps the pricing structures is the thing to look at.

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AndyD (18-Jan-14), Dave A (21-Jan-14)

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## tec0

Thankfully it wouldn’t matter for too much longer. Any medication “chronic or otherwise” is effectively treating something that is potentially lethal. Private Hospitals demand large amounts of money and if people can’t pay they get to watch how the people they love die. 

I always wonder what happened to our moral responsibility. Remember compassion? For what are we if not human?  YES you do get people that are driven by something else but that doesn’t mean they are always right. 

But if they want to make the medication inaccessible thousands will die but it will be nothing if you compare their actions before they go. The article hit it on the head... It is going to be hectic... Why? Because the “victims” have literally nothing to lose and if History is any indication then there is a no more dangerous mind then the mind of a person that has nothing left to lose.

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## tec0

> On a separate, yet linked issue, is actual pricing. If you see the price through medical aids and compare it to across the counter, the price is huge. Across the counter the meds may be R600, yet dispensed via a medical aid (the customer), it may be R400, as an example.
> 
> Having thought of this, perhaps the pricing structures is the thing to look at.


My medical aid refuses to pay for my medication there reasons was never given to me in writing so I cannot tell you exactly why they don't want to pay. My pills cost R600 "that is cash price" What makes me even more angry is the fact that I am dependant on said medication but must go to the doctor every time I need a box of pills. They refuse to give me refills.  :Confused:

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## sterne.law@gmail.com

Well doctors have obligations. But often you can get a 6 th script. It will depend on condition, the meds and potential side effects.
Similarly that sounds like chronic meds, your doctor should complete the form with medical aid.

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## AndyD

> .........On a separate, yet linked issue, is actual pricing. If you see the price through medical aids and compare it to across the counter, the price is huge. Across the counter the meds may be R600, yet dispensed via a medical aid (the customer), it may be R400, as an example.
> 
> Having thought of this, perhaps the pricing structures is the thing to look at.


I didn't address the pricing issue because whilst it is enextricably linked with the copyright/patent/IP issue it has already started to be addressed as a separate issue by government legislation although thiswas more at the retail end of the chain. But yes, I agree entrely the lack price control of medications plus the fact we've seen time and time again the pharmacutical industries inability to keep their profit margins humane should pave the way for further pricing legislation.

The problem with this entire issue is that general business rules don't apply. Because of the massive amounts of profit involved powerful governments are 'lobbying' or possibly it would be more accurate to say they're *dictating* what the regulations or lack of them must be to the smaller emerging economy countries in order to leave the door open for the blatant racketeering of these drug cartels. Because of this you can't look at the issue on a standard business level because the environment these companies operate in is not a standard free-market.

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## tec0

I had an interesting day at our local pharmacy... I look after a few people and sometimes over the counter medication is needed for allergies or the like. Now I give them my details each time I go to buy over the counter low to no risk medication also known as S0 or S1 medication. 

Well I got treated like a criminal and was very upset. See I explained to them that the medication is not for me it is for people that lack the mobility to come and get it themselves and to be clear I am not talking about massive amounts here “two boxes” or 24 pills. 

It is summer and some people do suffer plant allergies it is not uncommon. Yet according to the pharmacist I need to bring in there ID documentation for S0 to S1 medication. 

Now follow what I am saying. So it is OK to show up with someone else’s ID documentation and buy medication! If someone anyone shows up with an ID that didn’t belong to them I would phone the cops because that ID can be stolen or worse...

So a LAW that I would like is one where the Pharmacist must give you a document that tells you what medication you are allowed to buy and in what amounts. That way we can make sure you don't do anything wrong.

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## adrianh

Look, I understand the problem of cost all to well. I take 3 different cronic medications. The  cost is R730 per month. There is an additional product that I should be taking but at an additional R800 per month it is not financially viable. I have a choice, pay for the medication or go crazy. There have been many times when I've been unable to get the cash together and had to pick n choose which is most important. Yes, I know the effectes that each have and whether I can do without them if I have to.

But, the fact that those medications bring stability to my life does not mean that I have the right to demand to have them at a low price. Big pharma developed them at great expense and I benefit from that development. If you want to lower the cost of medication then go for the middle men, go for the doctors who are associated with pharmacues, private hospitals and medical aids. Discovery Health is the biggest culprit as far as I am concened. They have the entire mrket sown up and they do as they please. We are fighting the wrong enemy, it is not big pharma whom we should be fighting, it is private hospitals and medical aids.

I am very harsh about these things because I grew up in a medical environment. My old man was an orthopeadic surgeon, my mom a radiographer and my sisder did nursing for a while. 

Health works like this, the more money you have the better care you can afford. Lets say you go to the dentist and instead of charging you R50 for Novacaine he charges you R10. Great, so how will this change the fact that you still pay R3,500 for siting in his ofice for half an hour.

@pmbguy - Psycoactive drugs - of course they have upsides and downsides and of course they should be prescribedcappropriately. One cannot prescribe Ritalin for every child who has ants in his pants but there is a place for it. The biggest problem I find is not that doctors are pushing the drugs to make money, it is that they either don't know any better or go for a quick and dirty solution. Ritalin aka Cencerta is a wonderful product for those who need it due to miswired forebrains. Various medications are brilliant for the treatment of Bipolar Disorder, the choice that the patient has is to take the medication or jump in front of a train. Side effects can be very very interesting to say the least, side effects are not always negative, to the contrary some may have a more positive effect that the drug itself. Go do some research on the effect of SSRI's on sexual function...there are even more interesting effects I can tell you about. My personal view is that psycology in the main is a total waste of time, what is the point of paying a persom R600 an hour to ask me what I think, I know what I think, I'm paying you R600 to correct my thinking.

Anyhow, yes, I am a hardass about these thing because nobody deserves to be kept alive. The fact that I develop a cure for Aids doesn't mean that you deserve to get it just as much as you don't deserve to get a Porsche. If I get a cure for Aids I sure as hell wont let it loose in Africa, all that will happen is that there will be an extra billion mouths to feed next year.

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## adrianh

> Well doctors have obligations. But often you can get a 6 th script. It will depend on condition, the meds and potential side effects.
> Similarly that sounds like chronic meds, your doctor should complete the form with medical aid.


Doctors are able to write 6 month prescriptions for medications up to schedule 5. The patient then has to see the doctor to renew the script. A patient has to consult a doctor for schedule 6 and above. Ritalin / Concerta is schedule 6 because of their potential for abuse. Ritalin is closely related to Speed (Meth Amphetamine) in its chemistry and is open to abuse. The problem of course is that you have to spend another R200 per month to get the doctor to write the script.

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## AndyD

> But, the fact that those medications bring stability to my life does not mean that I have the right to demand to have them at a low price. Big pharma developed them at great expense and I benefit from that development. If you want to lower the cost of medication then go for the middle men, go for the doctors who are associated with pharmacues, private hospitals and medical aids...........


If you thing the big drug companies aren't illegally price rigging and abusing patents to prevent generics appearing on the market after their patents have expired then I would suggest you start reading here http://www.ftc.gov/news-events/media...tion/pay-delay. There's about 20 relevant links on there as well, if you still need more info after that I'll be happy to point you in the right direction.

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tec0 (19-Jan-14)

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## adrianh

Fair enough but do you know that generics also have very serious problems. Generics may have the same ingrdients but don't always have the same effect. It seems that there is a lot to be said for manufacturing processes that contributr to the effectiveness of drugs. Pharma does not have to disclose these processes. Prozac has an equalalent called Nuzac and the effect are not the same. Another issue is that generic manufacturers cannot be held liable for negative side effects caused bt the drugs that they produce. They claim that they manufacture the same product that was patented by the original company and therefore are not accountable for side effects. The patent holder says that the did not manufacture the drug and cannot vouch for the manufacturing techniques used thus they are also not responsible. Generic come with an upside and downside, you may get them cheap but when the crap hits the fan you're on your own.

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## tec0

> Fair enough but do you know that generics also have very serious problems. Generics may have the same ingrdients but don't always have the same effect. It seems that there is a lot to be said for manufacturing processes that contributr to the effectiveness of drugs. Pharma does not have to disclose these processes. Prozac has an equalalent called Nuzac and the effect are not the same. Another issue is that generic manufacturers cannot be held liable for negative side effects caused bt the drugs that they produce. They claim that they manufacture the same product that was patented by the original company and therefore are not accountable for side effects. The patent holder says that the did not manufacture the drug and cannot vouch for the manufacturing techniques used thus they are also not responsible. Generic come with an upside and downside, you may get them cheap but when the crap hits the fan you're on your own.


Actually you are wrong... they can be held accountable by the simple fact that the processes "As you claim is not the same" THUS there product CANNOT be the same.* If* they make a pain pill and it ends up being poison then it doesn’t matter what they claim the reality is they gave you poison thus they will be accountable on that fact alone. 

The reality is “if” there is a difference “no matter how small” it cannot be the same thing.

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## AndyD

> Fair enough but do you know that generics also have very serious problems. Generics may have the same ingrdients but don't always have the same effect. It seems that there is a lot to be said for manufacturing processes that contributr to the effectiveness of drugs. Pharma does not have to disclose these processes.....


The FDA dsagrees with what you're saying.



> Are generic drugs as effective as brand-name drugs?
> 
> Yes. A generic drug is the same as a brand-name drug in dosage, safety, strength, quality, the way it works, the way it is taken and the way it should be used.
> 
> FDA requires generic drugs have the same high quality, strength, purity and stability as brand-name drugs.
> 
> Not every brand-name drug has a generic drug. When new drugs are first made they have drug patents. Most drug patents are protected for 20 years. The patent, which protects the company that made the drug first, doesn't allow anyone else to make and sell the drug. When the patent expires, other drug companies can start selling a generic version of the drug. But, first, they must test the drug and the FDA must approve it.
> 
> Creating a drug costs lots of money. Since generic drug makers do not develop a drug from scratch, the costs to bring the drug to market are less; therefore, generic drugs are usually less expensive than brand-name drugs. But, generic drug makers must show that their product performs in the same way as the brand-name drug.


 Source

Obviously there's very slight differences between generic drugs and original drugs but the differences are carefully regulated within very small margins by the FDA who give the drug approvals. Generic drugs go through an approval process exactly the same as the brand name drug does, they are held to exactly the same standards. 

There's lots of marketing to the point of misinformation about original drugs being better than generic drugs but it simply isn't true. 

What is true is that original drugs are usually between 2 and 3 times more expensive than their generic equivalents. I can't imagine how large their profit margins are plus they have their 20 year patent protection advantage.

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## adrianh

How exactly does it disagree with me?

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## adrianh

Look at this:

http://www.webmd.com/depression/feat...-need-to-know_

http://www.infowars.com/generic-drug...-side-effects/

Another drug where then original and generic are somewhat different is Cipramil and its equivalent Cipralex.

I am not saying that generics are bad per se, what I am saying is that the saving in money comes with risks that people are not made aware of.

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## iLLuDeano

I wouldn't trust infowars and Alex Jones. He is a inside man, stay away.

I am also using medication for depression and I used to be on Ritallin and Concerta for ADHD. Both these drugs made my life !!HELL!! . No ther way to state this. I can't begin to explain the negative side effects, from massive eating problems (I ate one meal a day, half of what I was supposed to at night) To sleeping problems. I slept 4-6 hours at the most every night. Yes my concentration was better BUT, HUGE BUT!! That didn't make up for the malnutrition. I was 10kg's under weight, I became unfit. I had to stop playing rugby, (I actually got WP colors before I started with the medication) All of this, and I paid R600 now R800 for 30 tabs. It killed me slowly. I'm off it now for 3 years, my concentration improved by just practicing meditation techniques every odd day. 

Weed also helped, (Don't laugh) I started smoking weed when I was 18. All of a sudden I could study for 3-4 hours without stopping, I picked up some weight, my emotions became stable and today I'm healthy and off medication. I just take a very light anti-depressant to help with moods.

*The FACT of the matter* is not the profits. I don't care paying R800 for something that could better my quality of life. My problem is paying R800 a month for drugs that kills me quicker than illegal drugs(Weed) 

If anything. Don't give your kids drugs for ADD or ADHD... you will ruin their lives!! Rather put in extra effort to help them study and pass school. When you get older, you grow out of it and responsibility overshadows a minor attention flaw.

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## adrianh

@illUDeano - Don't make blanket statements because certain drugs don't work for you. I am not going to get into a pissing contest or go into the details of my own life but suffice to say that if I don't take the meds then I will probably end up in jail for beating somebody to death and I would go completely insane from getting nothing done due to having the attention span of a baby goldfish. Ritalin & Concerta are wonderful products for those that need them.




> If anything. Don't give your kids drugs for ADD or ADHD... you will ruin their lives!! Rather put in extra effort to help them study and pass school. When you get older, you grow out of it and responsibility overshadows a minor attention flaw.


This statement just makes me angry because my childhood was a total abortion which caused my adult life to be an abortion. If you think you are going to grow out of ADHD then you should come visit me at home and see how that theory works out in real life. Minor attention flaw - you're joking right, again come to my house and see exactly how minor it is....

Blanket statements are very dangerous because what works or does not work for you may or may not work for another person.

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## iLLuDeano

Nah man, I "needed" those drugs according to psychiatrist, doctors and teachers. It's bullshit. I had to take 2 x 56mg tabs. That is A LOT! I'm better off without it, and anyone who seeks a natural way to improve their concentration can do it without using those drugs.

I have also had a couple of friends with the same problems, they are going strong after they got off those meds. I guess a few individuals might find it works for them, if it does, by all means. i just think with the right mindset and natural solutions you can overcome ADHD and rid yourself of those mind numbing bs drugs.

A relative of mine has a school for children with learning disabilities. You can outgrow ADHD and you can control it with no use of any drugs. Meditation and constent reminders to control one self helps if you get into the routine of doing so.

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## adrianh

Yes, I understand that you are better off without them but you need to understand that that is how your life worked out. Dude, I am totally ADHD and Bipolar and I've been so all my life. I spent my youth being in sh1t all the time. I could not concentrate or learn anything. I sort of muddled through life and at about 40 I figured out that the way that I feel and the things that I do are very problematic. I could feel myself being angry for no reason and I would lash out blindly at people for no real reason. I would sometimes become so depressed that I seriously considered going under a bus. I found that the more stressed I get the worse my ADHD would get, I would bounce from thought to thought and I would get absolutely nothing done other than worry about getting nothing done and feeling even more stressed. I nearly went over the edge during that time and I decided to see my GP. He put me onto some meds and suddenly, overnight, my fractured worlds all came into focus. I had multiple lives, all in parallel. I had lots of duplicate products, half competed projects and lots of issues. The thing is that I never saw everything simultaneously, each view was like a telescope and never crossed into the same frame as any other. Anyhow, the drug brought it all together for the first time in my life. I went back to the GP and he sent me off to the head shrinker. The shrinker found that I am bipolar and ADHD. I've been on medication ever since. I am telling you that if I am not on the meds for a week I would start to swing terribly emotionally and I would get terribly angry or depressed. The swings are very bad. I also find that my mind babbles all the time, I think very shallowly and I am totally unable to concentrate. I found that Concerta, with all the other stuff I take is absolutely brilliant. I am able to concentrate and get a lot done...but at the moment the additional R800 per month is simply not viable. If I had the cash I would do it in a flash. You say that weed works for you and that is great, it seems to work for many people. All it does for me is give me a headache.

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## iLLuDeano

Bipolar is no joking matter. Together with ADHD, meds are simply the only option. That I understand fully

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## pmbguy

My opinion is that ADHD is over diagnosed and the medication for it often produces undesirable side effects worse than the initial problem. There are off course many people who benefit greatly from such medications, as Adrian’s example above. 

We need to find better ways to treat ADHD when correctly diagnosed. Ritallin (and similar) may be the best current solution, but it is a long way off from even being acceptable (in my mind). Such drugs affect the brain in its entirety, it effects mental processes that are not related to hyperactivity or inattention at all. During this shift in brain functioning, it almost as a lesser consequence reduces the symptoms of ADHD.

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Trickzta (20-Jan-14)

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## adrianh

I do agree with you that Ritalin is totally over prescribed. A kid that has ants in the pants doesn't have ADHD. I think though that there are cases that require medication. Teachers and head shrikers are far to quick to prescribe it. A shrink spent 5 minutes with you and then prescribes Ritalin. I can understand that it would affect you badly if you do not need it but then the shrinker should shift you onto something more appropriate, be it drugs, therapy or whatever. The bottom line is that teachers & doctors are too lazy to investigate the problems that the person has properly. I was fortunate in that I spent my entire life struggling with my own mind so it was fairly easy to detect the change that the meds made to my life.

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## adrianh

Ritalin has distinct effects on me; 
1. It quietens my mind down so that it is not constantly babbling.
2. My concentration deepens and I am able to think subconsciously rather that verbally internally i.e. consciously.
3. It definitely stops me from shifting attention. I can work on a project from start to finish and get it done without feeling that I should be somewhere else or doing something else.

Those drugs do interfere with sleep. I only need 4-6 hours a night and I am fine. I don't mind sleeping less if I feel better. There is a downside to mood stabilizers though and it is that it blunts one emotionally. I honestly have zero emotion. Yes, I am able to understand emotion in an abstract sort of way but I can't say that I feel love or hate or jealousy or any of that stuff. It drives my way totally batty that I am unable to relate to those feelings but I have a choice, feel it in absolute total excess and go over the edge or don't feel it at all. I've never been able to find a middle ground. It's one or the other. I choose the flatline mode because I will then not harm myself or anybody else....

Our computers are terribly screwed up, most people just don't realize it. It takes a lot of head bumping, mistakes, regrets etc. to realize that the workings of our brains and the workings of our minds are often out of sync. I know that what I just said sounds strange but it is true. My mind would think of something and know that the word or memory is in their somewhere. My brain would have a buffer overflow and refuse to retrieve the word or memory. Our brains sometimes return the wrong information and if we are not aware of it we tend to make serious errors of judgement. We run various sophisticated computers each with its own operating system. The master system sits on top of this lot and claims that it is in control...its mistaken...sometimes it is but most of the time its not.

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## tec0

The more things change the more it stays the same. Funny to know that there is about 3 generations here on this forum all used Ritalin at some point.  When I was on it all those years ago I became agitated and eventually turned the school bully into a screaming puddle of urine, mucus and blood.  Was the first time where I lost it completely. 

From that point I was branded a trouble maker and a violent person. I slept between 2 and 4 hours at most and was supper irritable. I a few years on I got into serious trouble and run in with the police. I then stopped the Ritalin my concentration went to hell but I was otherwise in control.

Dont get me wrong I highly recommend Ritalin but to a degree, it is important to stop every few days see how you do without it. 

I dont blame Ritalin for any of my actions... It simply enhanced what was already there.

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## Dave A

I thought the NWO angle was supposed to go in the NWO thread so that we could discuss the IP issue without too much "noise"  :Confused: 

Mind you - not the only rumble that seems to wander from thread to thread  :Slap: 

What was I thinking?  :Banghead:

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## Justloadit

All I can say is that living on this planet will kill you.

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adrianh (21-Jan-14)

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## adrianh

I am rather confused about the whole IP issue. A patent is issued. 20 years later it expires and goes into generic. Big Pharma now tweaks the product and gets a new patent. Now, the old patend stands and the generic stands - How does the new patent affect the old patendt and the generic?

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## adrianh

Ok, I did some reading and I understand the issue. The problem is not with Big Pharma per se, the problem is that SA Patent law is CRAP.

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## pmbguy

I believe the IP should only last 3years in pharma. This will bring more players into the fold. Competition will bring the price down and improve the quality of products available. 




> Bipolar is no joking matter. Together with ADHD, meds are simply the only option. That I understand fully


An ADHD friendly diet has been found to reduce the symptoms of ADHD to some degree in many people. In some cases a simple diet change removes all symptoms of ADHD.  
Aside from diet, therapy may also help, especially cognitive and behavioural therapy. 

Also have a look at the following, it includes some sound explanations and alternative treatments. 
http://www.additudemag.com/asset/1383.pdf

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## Trickzta

> @ Trickzta,
> 
> 
> As for Ritalin AKA “Central nervous system stimulant (trade name Ritalin) used in the treatment of narcolepsy in adults and attention deficit disorder in children” again a good medication but abused.


Ritalin is a stimulant given to hyperactive kids?? Also for attention deficit disorders. iLLuDeano was treated with Ritalin and you read what he has to say about it. I tend to agree with him. You are entitled to think it is good for kids, that is your right.

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## adrianh

Tricky - have you got ADD and have you got kids?

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## adrianh

> I believe the IP should only last 3years in pharma. This will bring more players into the fold. Competition will bring the price down and improve the quality of products available. 
> 
> 
> 
> An ADHD friendly diet has been found to reduce the symptoms of ADHD to some degree in many people. In some cases a simple diet change removes all symptoms of ADHD.  
> Aside from diet, therapy may also help, especially cognitive and behavioural therapy. 
> 
> Also have a look at the following, it includes some sound explanations and alternative treatments. 
> http://www.additudemag.com/asset/1383.pdf


Interesting....but it does not repair faulty wiring.

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## pmbguy

> Interesting....but it does not repair faulty wiring.


Diet can’t “cure” ADHD aka “loose wiring”, nothing can. What it can do is relieve symptoms. In some cases enough for the symptoms not to interfere with functioning/behaviour, replacing the need for medication. (The effects of diet on ADHD will vary greatly from one person to the next)

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## adrianh

Yea, I'm sure  that it does help some people. Many things like caffeine etc. make it worse.

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## Dave A

One of the problems I'm having with the Minister's view is I'm pretty familiar with an industry not too dissimilar to the pharmaceutical industry, the pesticides industry. And if pharmaceuticals have to go through anything like what "agricultural remedies" have to go through to get registered for use locally (let alone anywhere else), it wouldn't hurt for government to take a long, hard look in the mirror before they start casting stones.




> I believe the IP should only last 3years in pharma.


How long does it take to develop a product?
How long does it take to get it to market once the IP is registered?

These products have to navigate trials and incredible red tape that takes years out of that IP window.
Then that fat submission sits on some bureaucrat's desk for another year or more (I've heard reports of four years and more awaiting approval locally).

We're talking massive capital outlay looking for a needle in a haystack, followed by massive investment in trials, documentation etc., followed by massive regulatory submission fees, massive delays before a single cent is earned, and all of this capital investment which might not yield a single cent if the product is declined.

And how much has *our* government, such a knowledgeable and shining light in issues of morality, so keenly sensitive to and abhorrent of abuse of position, invested to this point?

Oh, I could rant on....

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tec0 (21-Jan-14)

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## adrianh

> I rest my case.


Wha ha ha ha ... and then you carry right on waffling....

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## Trickzta

> Wha ha ha ha ... and then you carry right on waffling....


The case & reply are not connected at all, but interesting theory.  :Wink:

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## tec0

> I have 3 sons, one of my boys had a short attention span in Primary School. 
> 
> *A stimulant would have improved this condition but here's the sting in the tail.*
> 
> The stimulant is treating the symptom, a long term form of treatment that keeps Big Pharma smiling.


in your own words "I rest my case"

Just as a side note; medication is suppose to treat the symptom... If someone anyone is willing to let a child suffer then honestly the big red light just started to flash.

That is a real cause for concern.

 :Ban: 

if it was up to me "but it is not" I would remove you and your threads alongside your post from this forum. But thankfully for you this forum has a good Admin team.

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## Trickzta

Tec0, my son did not suffer at all, and is well pleased that he never got medicated on this and on another occasion, this time for those potent chemicals that pmguy correctly said changed/damaged your brain, but that’s a story for another day.   
This is what Big Pharma is all about. The FDA is complicit in this criminal activity.
But in 2009, the same year Adderall XR went off patent
(and two years before Concerta, a time-release version of Ritalin went off patent
) a study in theAmerican Journal of Psychiatryfound the drugs were actually killing kids. There was "A significant association of stimulant use with sudden unexplained death emerged from the primary analysis," wrote the authors who looked at 564 cases of sudden death in children 7 to 19.  Pro-stimulant Pharma doctors disputed the study, saying the drugs might spare users death by improving their driving skills . Why didn't anybody test that? 
http://www.alternet.org/personal-hea...made-its-money
 While Merck marketed Singulair, which comes in a cherry-flavored chewable formulation, to parents with slogans like "Singulair is made with kids in mind," Fox TV and over 200 parents on the  website askapatient reported that children on Singulair exhibited altered moods, depression and ADHD, hyperkinesis and suicidal symptoms. 
http://www.alternet.org/personal-hea...ter948524&t=11

Jail time for selling herbs that helped cancer patients! 
http://www.naturalnews.com/043598_ca...#ixzz2r3PCAChg
Biotech giants sue Hawaiian island for passing legislation to restrict GMOs 
http://www.naturalnews.com/043600_Mo...#ixzz2r6ryxPWI

The irony of the industry claiming that its rights are somehow being violated by Measure 2491, which is set to take effect in August, is that these same chemical companies have never had to prove the safety of their chemical solutions to regulators.

http://www.naturalnews.com/043600_Mo...#ixzz2r6tnSunz

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## adrianh

So tricky, where do you live in the US?

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## pmbguy

@Dave A - Fair enough. You right, pharma needs the IP for that long to cover cost, time. (Maybe we can knock off one year)

I still maintain that more competition is needed.  I believe there is disproportionate competition in the market leading to high prices.

Competition should be brought in appropriately without destroying the market. 

One long-term benefit of having more competition is having an increased rate in the development of new and different drugs. Competition creates divergent specialities, more ground-up thinking. Capacity to develop will rise in internationally.

More competition, in this case, can only be achieved through careful legislation change. Cheaper prices make allot of sense to those governments who give away allot of free drugs.


...............(long story)..................humanity benefits

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## Citizen X

> "I am not using strong words; I am using *appropriate* words. This is genocide," Motsoaledi told the Mail & Guardian on Thursday, in response to a plan he described as a conspiracy of "satanic magnitude"  a plan he called on all South Africans to fight "to the last drop of their blood".[1]





> 





> Motsoaledi was angered by the PAE's strategy, outlined in a document seen by the newspaper and his department.





> "This document can sentence many South Africans to death," he was quoted as saying.
> "That is no exaggeration. This is a plan for genocide."[2]



_My two cents:_ Except for the Satanic plot, I agree with Health Minister Aaron Motsoaledi. He is exactly right. The poor are being held to ransom by pharmaceutical companies.

All medicine is too costly. It neednt be this way.


I know the emphasis is on HIV and cancer drugs. I suffer from chronic sinusitis and hayfever. The medication that I really require costs R700 per month and one requires a script for it. The implication is that one needs to visit a doctor, pay a consultation fee of R350 and have R700 readily available for the pharmacist. In effect, to go this route Ill require R1050 every single month which I simply cant afford. Im forced to use cheap over the counter medicines which are hugely ineffective.

The Minister of Health should do whatever is necessary to curb the cost of all medication.


*@Adrian*, the advice you gave me some time back about a combination of salt, water and bicarb, has really helped me a lot. THANK YOU :Wink: 


[1] Mail & Gaurdian: http://mg.co.za/article/2014-01-16-m...ot-is-genocide. Accessed 22 January 2014

[2] Sunday Times +:http://www.timeslive.co.za/politics/...ug-patent-plot. Accessed 22 January 2014

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tec0 (22-Jan-14)

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## AndyD

In the interest of keeping this interesting debate on topic I've moved about a dozen posts that were entirely or mostly about conspiracy theories or NWO related issues to this more relevant thread;

http://www.theforumsa.co.za/forums/s...-%28part-1%29/

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## tec0

Thing is with medication it touches everyone from the low end to high end consumer. Fact is all of us have the need for some type of medication in order to live longer without pain and allow us some ability to function. 

Medication is not your standard product. Yes research and development is key to success and yes if you fabricate the medication you want your money. That said if millions of people are already your customers and you are not making money then there is something amiss. Simple math shows that it is almost impossible not to make money.

See in this industry there must be a form of ethic and if there is no ethic then people will die simply because they couldn’t afford the high price of medication.  The moment we step into this mindset “if you can’t afford it you die” then there is no need for government or the UN or any institution at all then as humans we lost the plot.

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## Justloadit

What about this Google Scientists Create Contact Lens to Measure Blood Sugar Levels in Tears

Is this the beginning of getting tagged?

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## adrianh

Medicine is doing as much damage to the human race as good. We are keeping people alive longer and we are also allowing people who would not have survived to lead meaningless lives. We are also stopping any form of evolution because we simply call them "abnormalities" and get rid of them.

As far as I am concerned there is no point in curing the whole of Africa of Aids & TB and what not. All that's going to happen is that they are going to continue to breed like flies and die from hunger anyway.

We should produce less offspring and better quality offspring. Families shouldn't be allowed to have more than two kids.

I feel nothing, there is no rule that says that the world owes the poor....the poor should learn to have less babies, even better, no babies, so that they can bring a halt to the notion of "poor"

It should work like it does at the SPCA. It's simple math, will it cost more to keep the dog alive than to put it down...do the math and you get the answer....If the dog has a rich master, well then its lucky, if not...then its off to the wrong side of the dirt.

The world is full of lazy-asses who feel that the world owes them, well stuff that, the world including big pharma owes you nothing....you pay you live...otherwise you die...tough titty!

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## tec0

> Medicine is doing as much damage to the human race as good. We are keeping people alive longer and we are also allowing people who would not have survived to lead meaningless lives. We are also stopping any form of evolution because we simply call them "abnormalities" and get rid of them.
> 
> As far as I am concerned there is no point in curing the whole of Africa of Aids & TB and what not. All that's going to happen is that they are going to continue to breed like flies and die from hunger anyway.
> 
> We should produce less offspring and better quality offspring. Families shouldn't be allowed to have more than two kids.
> 
> I feel nothing, there is no rule that says that the world owes the poor....the poor should learn to have less babies, even better, no babies, so that they can bring a halt to the notion of "poor"
> 
> It should work like it does at the SPCA. It's simple math, will it cost more to keep the dog alive than to put it down...do the math and you get the answer....If the dog has a rich master, well then its lucky, if not...then its off to the wrong side of the dirt.
> ...


Brave words but I can imagine that you will eat them when it is your own  It is so easy to go about putting a price on someone's life but when it is your own or your own children that gets that type of treatment I cannot imagine you just accepting it. Fair enough I would be dead today if it wasn't for modern medication. 

That said I think some people have a overstated idea of self worth. I know a mom with two children she has cancer by your logic she must just go and die just because she cannot afford "inflated cost". (unfortunately admin will edit out my next sentence)  

Adrian before I say something really nasty why dont you go and sit next to a child diagnosed with cancer... Tell that child your messed up little idea of an utopia and how little you feel for them. When you do go and do get off on your power-trip of who gets to live and who gets to die... I foresee someone kicking you ass... And in all honesty I hope they do a good job.

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## adrianh

Wha ha ha ha...our governmunt says that the answer is to eat beetroot, it cures Aids so I'm sure it also cures cancer. You also get a religious nut to say an incantation and that will also cure you. 

But seriously, you are going to be reincarnated anyway so you don't need to get so hung up about this life, you can try again next time. Just be careful because you may be reincarnated as a betroot and get eaten to cure somebody from Aids. All those religious people should be all too pleased to go and play harp for eternity. So you see, ending up on the wrong side of the dirt has its advantages.

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## Trickzta

Although this is about Big Pharma, it is not theory. Should it be seen as distracting, let it be known I have not the slightest intention of causing any distraction whatsoever, and have no objection if this post is removed. I trust your judgement unconditionally.

Part of Big Pharma's strategy is to mock, dismiss out of hand or simply ban natural remedies that actually do work.

Other alternate medicine or treatments receive the same treatment.

A famous example is when the FDA seized a consignment of apricot pips.

40 tons of apricot pits. People were using it to treat or prevent cancer. This was seen as a threat to the cancer industry.

In 1974, Mr. Heinsohn, the owner of the seized pits referred to the 'I.G. Farbin-Rockefeller' cartel as greedy and not wanting a decrease in cancer patients. Their business amounted to 12 - 14 billion $ and would fall to about 2 billion $ should laetrile (made from apricot kernels) be legalised.

Eventually the FDA lost the case and the pits were returned. The claim that laetrile didn't cure cancer also mentioned that it was harmless.

Because of the presence of small amounts of cyanide in the raw pits a new approach to banning the pits was used.

Today it is known that the cyanide reacts in a way that renders it harmless when ingested. Much like 'acidic' citrus fruits become alkaline when ingested.

Today Sayer Ji has contributed enormously to the task of eliminating the fraudulent 'research' that the 'I.G. Farbin-FDA-Rockefeller' and the 'Monsanto-FDA-Gates Foundation' have infected our research results with.

Milk and Honey are two foods that share a singular biological imperative.

This article was written by Sayer Ji, a legend in his own time, a giant in the quest for truth.

This man risks his life by exposing fraud and corruption in the medical arena, and beyond.

I could not put the following article down in my own words, and believe me, I wish I could.

So despite the risk of being slammed for pasting, I think that this info is important to many people. We all know people who suffer allergies, esp. pollen related allergies. Most would improve their condition by adding raw honey to their daily intake. 

Honey and its health boosting properties have been known for centuries. It competes favourably with many modern drugs. 

This article just scratches the surface, and hopefully opens doors to more uses for this wonderful gift from nature.

It is a good starting point to improving our health and by so doing preventing or inhibiting many of modern mans' illnesses and ailments.

Raw honey has many other uses, but more on that later.

http://www.greenmedinfo.com/blog/5-a...ng-honey-facts

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## tec0

> Wha ha ha ha...our governmunt says that the answer is to eat beetroot, it cures Aids so I'm sure it also cures cancer. You also get a religious nut to say an incantation and that will also cure you. 
> 
> But seriously, you are going to be reincarnated anyway so you don't need to get so hung up about this life, you can try again next time. Just be careful because you may be reincarnated as a betroot and get eaten to cure somebody from Aids. All those religious people should be all too pleased to go and play harp for eternity. So you see, ending up on the wrong side of the dirt has its advantages.


I wouldnt go all out on this topic if I were you Adrian. Fair warning I know a lot of people here and I know them well. There are a lot of people here that lost people they loved to illness. For some the pain is never really over the memory lingers. It is these memories that you are playing with. 

Not only do you disrespect them you disrespect there memory and sadness.  See you made a thread about medication personal. Your brashness and spitefulness towards the topic is starting to where heavily on some. And it is not just me this time around. 

Now most of us are trying to ignore the brashness and the blatant disrespect. But it is getting to that point... So now you know.

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## adrianh

Oh I don't know, I mean all them religious people go to a  better place so why keep them here...wave them goodbye and wish them the best for eternity. I think that people should be vetted before being given life saving drugs, if you are found to be a worthless assholes then they don't get any because they have no value to society. That way we will do what nature wants to do and that is to weed out the weak so that the human race can evolve to be strong. We are doing more harm to the human race than good by keeping worthless people alive, nature would cull them off if left to its own devices.

I am all for not giving people Aids drugs, when they screw around without wearing protection and make lots of babies they take their chances, the ones that get Aids lost the poker game....tough sh1t. Nah, I don't care, nature should take its course. 

If I find cure for Aids I'll make a crapload of money selling it to big pharma so that they can bury the patent very very deep.

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## tec0

> be a worthless assholes then they don't get any because they have no value to society.


A long time ago now... a very old man walked into the hospital he was sickly and haven't had a bath in a long time. Two young nurses took pity on him and took him to the wash room they cleaned him up removed the rotting flesh form his legs. Worms crawled out from under his skin so they took the time and cleaned out everything. 

Once cleaned the doctor placed him on a drip... He smiled at the two young nurses and thanked them for treating him they way they did. One of the nurses picked up a Bible and started reading to him while he slowly slipped away. He didn't wake the next morning and soon after he died. Now to me that is the value of life and the gift of hope that makes us HUMAN. 

Now again I fear that admin will delete all of this but in the end I am going to say this... Value isn't earned it is given. Clearly you don't value what I value your reasons are you own.  But kindness needs not your permission Adrian... Truth doesn’t need you to believe in it for it will exist regardless. That is the beauty of it. It simply is and simply will be...  

Nothing you say do or can change this...

***edit***

In the old-days a doctor was legally obligated to save a life. Today you have to pay R2000 to R15000 just so that the doctor will see you. Now if medication is so expensive that more then 70% people "population of 50 million" cannot afford the medication how is that justified? You can't! 

And remember Adrian, I cannot afford my medication each month! Am I a bad person? 

Reality check Adrian not everyone deserves the death penalty just for being broke.

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## adrianh

"Everybody wants to go to heaven but nobody wants to die" 

Anyway, back to the topic at hand.

Generics are not always cheaper than original drugs, many specialized drugs are cash cows and everybody milks them. Generic manufactures arejust like everybody else, they are in business to make money.

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## tec0

> "Everybody wants to go to heaven but nobody wants to die" 
> 
> Anyway, back to the topic at hand.
> 
> Generics are not always cheaper than original drugs, many specialized drugs are cash cows and everybody milks them. Generic manufactures arejust like everybody else, they are in business to make money.


Firstly "Everybody wants to go to heaven but nobody wants to die". You will be surprised... 

"Generic manufactures arejust like everybody else, they are in business to make money." But remember we have a global government called the UN. Part of their job is to make sure that companies don’t become unethical...

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## pmbguy

> But remember we have a global government called the UN. Part of their job is to make sure that companies don’t become unethical...


The UN is an old dog with no teeth. If you want the UN oh sorry the “global government” to step in you are highly mistaken. I find it totally hilarious when people say ...oh the UN must step in. Please get real. 

The UN decides nothing without the approval of the US. The UN has no autonomy what so ever. The UN is a body that was created by the west for its own purposes. If the UN suggests a major change in Pharma, the US through its lobby groups would veto the decision.

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## tec0

> The UN is an old dog with no teeth. If you want the UN oh sorry the “global government” to step in you are highly mistaken. I find it totally hilarious when people say ...oh the UN must step in. Please get real. 
> 
> The UN decides nothing without the approval of the US. The UN has no autonomy what so ever. The UN is a body that was created by the west for its own purposes. If the UN suggests a major change in Pharma, the US through its lobby groups would veto the decision.


I wouldn't count them out just yet... Remember they still have more fire power then anything before them. I am not saying they "can't" get manipulated but do you have any idea what will happen if 8 billion "that is 8 billion!" people get pissed off? 

Be careful when you give someone nothing to lose... Then they have everything to gain... You say you are an expert on history right? You tell us what happens if you corner a large population of people...

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## adrianh

I don't think religious people should be given any drugs at all because they can just pray and be cured. I saw on TV that praying, eating grass and puking all the grass out cures all sorts of ailments.

So now the UN controls the price of generic drugs...good one. 

So tell me, is the UN run by reptiles who drive around in flying saucers that are only visible to dim witted farmers?

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## pmbguy

> You say you are an expert on history right? You tell us what happens if you corner a large population of people...


Many things, including the notion that a body like the UN is going to help, which it wont.

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## adrianh

> You tell us what happens if you corner a large population of people...


You wipe them out - Just ask Hitler, Stalin, the American ala the strike on Japan...

Ag ou tekkie, the human race is the cancer of the earth. Best to leave them to wipe each other out so that the earth can survive!

Humans should go back to where they come from...dust!

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## tec0

> You wipe them out - Just ask Hitler, Stalin, the American ala the strike on Japan...
> 
> Ag ou tekkie, the human race is the cancer of the earth. Best to leave them to wipe each other out so that the earth can survive!
> 
> Humans should go back to where they come from...dust!


How is your maths Adrian? Think probability mathematics then you get Risk Mathematics used by insurance companies. Still there is a darker study of maths. What it includes is survival studies, social science probability matrix and some really cool formulae. It is absolutely fascinating stuff. It is just you really need to know your stuff. 

With it one can predict almost anything. I came to call it the crystal ball.  

Like the name suggest it gives you a glimpse into a future. Now I am not going to take 50 pages to try and explain it to you. But the short of it is if you consider unethical behaviour like supper expensive medication...  Well you start to get a lot of “0” (zeros ) After that you get what is known as an aggressive negative. Once that gets calculated you get an idea where “humanity will be” in the next 20 years “depending on what you used” 

And thanks to stories like these and others.... Well it is not looking all that wonderful right now.

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## pmbguy

Don’t do 50 pages just show us one algorithm and Your calculations for it.

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## adrianh

> How is your maths Adrian? Think probability mathematics then you get Risk Mathematics used by insurance companies. Still there is a darker study of maths. What it includes is survival studies, social science probability matrix and some really cool formulae. It is absolutely fascinating stuff. It is just you really need to know your stuff. 
> 
> With it one can predict almost anything. I came to call it the crystal ball.  
> 
> Like the name suggest it gives you a glimpse into a future. Now I am not going to take 50 pages to try and explain it to you. But the short of it is if you consider unethical behaviour like supper expensive medication...  Well you start to get a lot of “0” (zeros ) After that you get what is known as an aggressive negative. Once that gets calculated you get an idea where “humanity will be” in the next 20 years “depending on what you used” 
> 
> And thanks to stories like these and others.... Well it is not looking all that wonderful right now.


Hey dude, why don't you use them 50 pages of calculations and predict the Lotto numbers...now that will be really useful.

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## tec0

> Hey dude, why don't you use them 50 pages of calculations and predict the Lotto numbers...now that will be really useful.


its not the same thing.

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## adrianh

> its not the same thing.



So what is it that you can predict. I am also vey good at predicting stuff. I predict that the sun will shine tomorrow and that it might rain. I further predict that nightnwill come when the sun goes down...cool hey...

Ok so predict something...what colour underpants am I going to wear tomorrow?

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## pmbguy

White, because its monday...a new beginning etc etc

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## tec0

> So what is it that you can predict. I am also vey good at predicting stuff. I predict that the sun will shine tomorrow and that it might rain. I further predict that nightnwill come when the sun goes down...cool hey...
> 
> Ok so predict something...what colour underpants am I going to wear tomorrow?


Predicting is not probability Example: lets say the most common colour is red and blue followed by black and white for men's underpants "now I don't have a lot of info so lets work it out. according to basically zero info your next colour will be a light blue or dark blue followed by a darker almost black colour. Consider it is Monday and if you are a within the normal way of doing things chances are you will grab a gray colour that is older more warn and it will have one hole at least... 

Now you will tell me I am wrong... and it will be something exotic...

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## pmbguy

White...its gonna be white

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## adrianh

Damn...now is it going to be a Jokey Junior?

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## pmbguy

@tec0 – You have often mentioned mathematical calculations. May I humbly ask you to post the algorithms that you have used. Others may benefit from your knowledge.

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## Trickzta

Private healthcare costs are spiraling out of control in South Africa. So much so that our Competition Commission has launched an inquiry into the high cost of private healthcare in South Africa. SACSIS' Fazila Farouk caught up with executive director of SECTION27, Mark Heywood, to find out if this market inquiry will go far enough in its investigation to get to the bottom of the problem.

We discovered that the inquiry might not even get off the ground if the private healthcare sector gets its way. According to Heywood, given the delay in getting the inquiry's terms of reference finalised, there is reason to suspect that there's a war going on behind the scenes -- particularly, led by some of the private healthcare companies that are trying to kill this inquiry even before it starts.

http://sacsis.org.za/site/article/1812

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