# General Business Category > Technology Forum >  Warning - Never say that you are selling your laptop while its in the vicinity.

## Loman

I've made this blunder for the second time now.

A couple of years ago i bought a laptop from TINY while in the UK.
6 months later when i'm back home i decided to sell it and it overheard me because the next day the backlight of the screen failed.

Now, right when i'm about to sell my Fujitsu Siemens M3438G the processor is giving me a headache.

Its a 1.73Ghz CPU and normally after disconnecting from the mains it is cut back to 797Mhz. 

But its stuck at 797Mhz and i can't get it back up to the full speed.
I've disabled the Power Saving feature in the bios that slows it down when its on battery power. - Didn't help.

Its been formatted and restored to factory default so this is not Windows throwing a fit.

I've been offered R 6000 for it so i'd rather sell it than dump it. :Badpc: 

Any ideas anyone??

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## Dave A

So I'm not the only one with a theory that negative vibes are harmful to the correct function of some computers.  :Stick Out Tongue:  

Have you checked for driver updates or contacted support on the Fujitsi Siemens website. I know I've solved a few glitches that way before.

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## Loman

> Have you checked for driver updates or contacted support on the Fujitsi Siemens website. I know I've solved a few glitches that way before.


I've contacted them the 20th December. Still haven't heard anything. It might be a bad time, over Christmas and all, I'll wait for another week & see what happens. 

It just pisses me off when these major companies sell their "great" products but when something goes wrong their support is non existent.

I'm not talking about the laptop, as its been great the past four years and probably nears the end of its useful life, but rather the HP L7680.

The first month after i bought it, it seemed like the best there is. BUT ONLY FOR THE FIRST MONTH. 
Now little over a year later I'm using my fourth REPLACEMENT printer as well as my tenth  printhead.  :Taz: 
According to HP this printer has a lower cost per page than laser printers.
But after every 1200 pages you need to change the printheads, and they cost R 450. That alone costs you about R 0.75 per page. But whats worse is I've been though nine printheads and i've only printed 4900 pages. Thats 540 pages per printhead.yeah theres some fine print for you.

I'm considering suing them but i know that doing so would be just as big a waste of time as trying to get any support from them.( it took them three months in replacing a brand new printhead that couldn't even print one page)

I've vowed to never buy a HP product ever again. Understandably.

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## Dave A

I find the biggest problem with HP in South Africa is they outsource their support, and their support "partners" have really not being up to standard. Parts cost much the same as the entire printer, at least when it comes to laser. And let's not even get into the cost of consumables of late.

HP seems to have refined the art of the disposable printer.

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## Loman

In my quest for finding a great laser printer i stumbled upon this site
http://store.apple.com/dk/product/TN...mco=MjMyODMyNA

The HP L7680 has a monthly duty cycle of 7500. :Confused:  HIGHLY IMPROBABLE

Speed/monthly volume
# Print speed, black (draft quality mode): Up to 35 ppm
# Print speed, color (draft color mode): Up to 34 ppm
*# Monthly duty cycle: Up to 7500 pages*
# Processor speed: 192 MHz

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## Loman

I'm busy with a couple of reveiws but it looks like this one will be my next printer.
Brother MFC-7840W
http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2324632,00.asp

I only hope that its available in SA.

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## Loman

Is it possible that a virus or some other type of thingamajig could mess around with your multiplier of your CPU?
I DL CPU-Z to try to find out what the problem is with my laptop, just for a test i tried it on my desktop and some strange things happened. 
It shows that my multiplier is 6 with a speed of 1197mhz but every 5 - 20 seconds is jumps to a multiplier of 11 and a speed of 2194 (where it supposed to be) for a second before falling back.

The weird thing is that windows still register a 2194mhz even though cpu-z doesn't.
This is the first time i used cpu-z so i'm not sure whether that is normal but since overclockers use the prog to have a look at their true speed i doubt that it is.

I haven't tested it on the laptop yet, will do in a while.

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## Loman

Got it. 
Its got to do with the CPU's Enhanced Intel Speedstep Technology 
Meaning that activities that isn't CPU intensive cause the processor to use a lower multiplier causing a lower power consumption.

I did a bench test and it went up to X11 and stayed there until i terminated the program. 

Going to test my laptop now.

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## Loman

> Enhanced Intel SpeedStep technology allows the system to dynamically adjust processor voltage and core frequency, which can result in decreased average power consumption and decreased average heat production.


Got it from their website.

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## Loman

Does anyone own the E8400 or E8500 CPU?
I'm going to build myself a new PC that has to last 3 - 5 years and at first i wanted the Q6600 but since its over 3 years old and not many apps and games make use of all four cores (the only software that does make use of all four at the moment is photo shop software) I'd rather opt for the E8 series.

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## Dave A

> *# Monthly duty cycle: Up to 7500 pages*


I think when it comes to HP that duty cycle applies more to what would invalidate the warranty than what is a truly sustainable duty load. I've always considered the longest print run as the real measure of durability anyway - not a number that tends to be quoted in the stats.



> not many apps and games make use of all four cores


My feeling is that software is still catching up with the progress of the hardware. But even a year is a long time in digital technology. I wouldn't be surprised if in 3-5 years you'll be struggling to run main stream apps without quad core machines.

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## Loman

> I wouldn't be surprised if in 3-5 years you'll be struggling to run main stream apps without quad core machines.


So is there a Quad core CPU that you would recommend? I really liked the Q6600 but i'm not sure that its the one to buy since its already over three years old.

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## Dave A

Got a crystal ball?

Consider the Vista compatability fiasco for a moment. What works today is tomorrow's paperweight.

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## Loman

It seems that Vista is Microsoft's biggest blunder. (Except the Xbox 360 - They are getting sued soon) I hope Windows 7 isn't following the same route.

I can remember that when Microsoft released Vista Beta all the reviews were very positive and everyone couldn't wait for it to be released.
Now we can't wait to get it off our PC's. What went wrong?

Another problem is DRM - Digital rights management.
Because of that its not only cheaper and easier getting a pirated copy of whatever you want but its also stress free. 
For example, Microsoft Flight Simulator X. The person who buys it have to go through a whole process confirming that the software they bought isn't copied. 
Whereas the pirated one is as easy as install & play.

As far as I'm concerned DRM isn't stopping piracy, its encouraging it.

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## Frankincense

I am an extreme Gamer and Respect Good software...runnin watercooled Rig with Q66 and Vista Ultimate 64 bit overclocked ...37" full hdtv Nvidia Graphics 8800 series shit, 8Gb ram...7.1 surround 'n other stuff all over..

Never had an issue with Vista Ultimate, coolest thing since XP...can't wait for XP  :Ban: to be outlawed!!!

Love it when XP'ers cant run stuff for Vista. :Badpc:  Serves them right for resisting the 6Chan6ge6. 

"As far as I'm concerned DRM isn't stopping piracy, its encouraging it" - DRM is compliance to those who have their 6int6ernet6 connection(any Gamer should have that, if not, they dont deserve the title)  and an original software disk with a shiney plastic box with pictures on it to be unwrapped like a bride on the first night...


If you building a new rig....*dont install XP*. It will crack your registries' virginity :Wave: ...lay Vista/Win7 upon her from inception of her first post and your crystal ball will give you what you want...and *only use purchased orginal software*...(Yes you may need to register it online first - it's for your own Good) :Lttd: 
To quote: "Whereas the pirated one is as easy as install & play."...thank your God you don't ride a superbike :Yikes: ....pirated parts Kill...logic will tell you even pirated software kills your Crystal Ball...ever tried to re-use a condom?

Oh well, leave out the E Duo's, and start a Quad or even i7 on an X58 Mobo. 

Only run original stuff on your RIG....always use protection....viruses kill...

She'll run like a Crystal Ball!!!

Disable your Speedstep in Bios, Crank up the FSB and push up your fire(Voltages) to all your componenents, even RAM & Bridges with a serious effort on the cooling and watch your System Rock.

If you see smoke come out your chassis, start again, but replace hardware first.(seriously - do some research before tweaking BIOS specs)

"Overclock.net" is the site....

Happy overclocking :Slayer:

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## Dave A

Francois, what you've got there is a Big Gun when lots of people are just trying to kill ants.

That said, I've got a notion Vista's bad rep (if we ignore the original processor chip issue) comes from the OEM Vista Home installed on so many off-the-shelf machines. When it comes to getting it to behave well on a peer-to-peer network, it's just not funny.

Then there is the "standard apps" issue. My favourite one: That Vista email program is the pits. More bugs there than in a sceptic tank.

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## Loman

> Never had an issue with Vista Ultimate, coolest thing since XP...can't wait for XP to be outlawed!!!
> 
> Love it when XP'ers cant run stuff for Vista. Serves them right for resisting the 6Chan6ge6.


Nice rig, but its well known that just by having vista installed 
on your system decreases performance on certain apps by as 
much as 40%. Google it, you'll find tons of reviews validating it.
Like this one:
http://www.tomshardware.com/reviews/...ta,1531-4.html
XP beats Vista especially hard when it comes to gaming.
Its a well known fact that gamers don't use XP if only because 
of the drop in performance. In fact you are the first gamer 
i know of who prefer to use Vista.




> "As far as I'm concerned DRM isn't stopping piracy, its encouraging it" - DRM is compliance to those who have their 6int6ernet6 connection(any Gamer should have that, if not, they dont deserve the title)  and an original software disk with a shiney plastic box with pictures on it to be unwrapped like a bride on the first night...
> 
> 
> If you building a new rig....*dont install XP*. It will crack your registries' virginity...lay Vista/Win7 upon her from inception of her first post and your crystal ball will give you what you want...and *only use purchased orginal software*...(Yes you may need to register it online first - it's for your own Good)
> To quote: "Whereas the pirated one is as easy as install & play."...thank your God you don't ride a superbike....pirated parts Kill...logic will tell you even pirated software kills your Crystal Ball...ever tried to re-use a condom?


*I don't use pirated software*, but just like anyone that 
had problems with some of the games like Half Life's horrible 
Steam Validation process, I was tempted.
XP might have its flawes but its still a shining beacon of light 
compared to Vista.



> Oh well, leave out the E Duo's, and start a Quad or even i7 on an X58 Mobo.


Personally i feel that spending more than R 10 000 on a pc 
is insane. Especially on a system that can't utilize its full 
potential since the only software currently making full use 
of four or more cores is photoshop software. Have a look 
at a comparison chart with the Core2Duo E8400 or E8500 
and compare that with your Q6600. You would see that on 
some applications and most games there isn't much of a 
gain in using the quad core. 
Even if there is a 120 core processor for the same price as 
a quad core i still won't buy it for the exact same reason 
i don't buy tampons. I CANT USE THEM.




> Disable your Speedstep in Bios, Crank up the FSB and push up your fire(Voltages) to all your componenents, even RAM & Bridges with a serious effort on the cooling and watch your System Rock.


Perhaps it you use XP as an OS instead of Vista you 
won't even need to overclock.
By the way, on a system such as yours you don't 
need to overclock in the first place. You'll barely see
 a performance gain when playing games and stressing 
your components unnecessarily. 
How much gain in FPS do you have after overclocking?

The E6300 was a nice CPU to overclock for me, but 
my next PC will definitely have either the E8400 or E8500. 
Depending which one is on special first. (hey its tough times, ain't it?) 
Unless there are a lot of games and apps making full 
use of four or more cores shortly. Then I'll have another look. 

*BUT WHATEVER THE AMOUNT OF CORES IT MIGHT HAVE, I WILL STILL BE RUNNING XP UNTIL WINDOWS SEVEN ARRIVES.*

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## Dave A

> i don't buy tampons. I CANT USE THEM.


Pretty relieved we at least got that one cleared up and out of the way  :Stick Out Tongue:

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## BonaFide

> I am an extreme Gamer and Respect Good software...runnin watercooled Rig with Q66 and Vista Ultimate 64 bit overclocked ...37" full hdtv Nvidia Graphics 8800 series shit, 8Gb ram...7.1 surround 'n other stuff all over..
> 
> Never had an issue with Vista Ultimate, coolest thing since XP...can't wait for XP to be outlawed!!!
> 
> Love it when XP'ers cant run stuff for Vista. Serves them right for resisting the 6Chan6ge6. 
> 
> "As far as I'm concerned DRM isn't stopping piracy, its encouraging it" - DRM is compliance to those who have their 6int6ernet6 connection(any Gamer should have that, if not, they dont deserve the title)  and an original software disk with a shiney plastic box with pictures on it to be unwrapped like a bride on the first night...
> 
> 
> ...


Francois

I am in agreement with a few of your statements, but not with others.

I agree that pirating (be it software or bike parts) should never be considered. There is enough OS software in the market that is comparable to the propriety software offered to appease any person on a very tight budget or for the person who does not want to spend a cent. Whilst I do find much of the propriety software over-priced, they can only charge what the market is willing to pay. The more people who move away from PS, the sooner one will see their licensing drop.

In regards purchasing of hardware, I hardly think it is advisable to recommend forking out huge sums of money for a system based on the i7 CPU and X58 factor Mobo and ddr3 ram. There is so little software that is capable of using the potential power of such a set-up and add to that the current inflated pricing of such, it really does not make sense from a value for money perspective, The other area where Intel dropped the ball was the i7 not being backward upgrade compatible unlike the Phenom II which can still make use of DDR2 and the AM seried boards.

At present the E series CPU is in all probability the most cost effective upgrade solution for most end-users based on its over-clocking abilities (mobo dependent of course). Bear in mind that 80% of components are sold to endusers who do not need hugely powerful machines and who have no idea what OC'ing is.

I personally would go with the Q6600 (which you yourself have) as it can reside on most standard mobo's and is a very capable CPU. Well priced and benefits will be reaped when more software companies release their QC specified volumes.




> Francois, what you've got there is a Big Gun when lots of people are just trying to kill ants.
> 
> That said, I've got a notion Vista's bad rep (if we ignore the original processor chip issue) comes from the OEM Vista Home installed on so many off-the-shelf machines. When it comes to getting it to behave well on a peer-to-peer network, it's just not funny.
> 
> Then there is the "standard apps" issue. My favourite one: That Vista email program is the pits. More bugs there than in a sceptic tank.


Vista was a disaster, especially on the OEM machines. The number of downgrades I performed for clients to XP are too numerous to mention, but suffice to say that the Vista entry level product is rubbish.

Having said that the Business and Ultimate versions are very capable OS's, but do require a little tweaking to get it to run smoothly, but then that is why companies like us are in business as we can smooth the transition  :Wink: 

It looks like Windoze 7 is going to be a good replacement, but we all know how wrong things can go from RC and Beta versions of software. Must admit have found a few glitches, but it has a lot of improvements over Vista.

I still believe taht the way forward is Linux based systems, but the cross compatibility issues in terms of software is an ongoing problem that needs to be resolved. I cannot for the life of me understand why the PS developers have not started writing the code for their software to run on Linux based systems, but that is another discussion entirely.

This thread seems to have been derailed slightly  :Wink:

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## Loman

BonaFide, i'm glad you agree that Francois' rig is a bit overkill. On the other hand, if i had money to burn, why not?

But since i don't i better stop my daydreaming. :Hmmm:

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## BonaFide

> BonaFide, i'm glad you agree that Francois' rig is a bit overkill. On the other hand, if i had money to burn, why not?
> 
> But since i don't i better stop my daydreaming.


I suppose we are all different. I am a technophobe, but must admit that I will not pay inflated prices for hardware just to have the newest of the new, especially when there are more cost effective ways to get to similarly powerful systems - call me a penny pincher  :Wink:

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## twinscythe12332

oh well, might as well get into this.

dual core vs quad core, quad core is going to give horns, and in my opinion is a better investment over time due to its ability to keep up with the times (ie when we're running around with 128 -bit and so on...).so I agree and disagree with it not being used.

naturally with all new tech advancements they are going to expect ludicrous amounts of your hard earned money. so right now Intel is smiling with open hands saying "you want I7, you fork out for it." Personally I'll wait till the prices and the next set of chips come out (Intel have been quoted that the name "i7" will make sense once the next chipset comes out). still, having the threading (8 threads for the four cores vs your average quad core's 4 for four) that it offers is rather tasty. 

I haven't touched vista home, but I run vista ultimate 32-bit. I have had quite a few bombings out (normally in the same place in fallout3), and so have my friends using XP, so that sounds more like a problem in the game, not the "huh? it worked on XP but not vista" crap (ie what I'm saying is it has been pretty solid).

as for overclocking, debatable topic. it helps in graphics, I've seen a good reaction in changing the CAS latency in my ram, as for the CPU, leave it alone. haven't tried AMD but my Intel screams "I hate you" louder than a tickle me emo doll.

I do play a fair few games, but as for the internet connection comment, I'll take it you consider gamer to equal online gamer. I've played a bit of warcraft 3 online, and considering "hax" *player has exited the game* is the most common approach when losing, I'll stick to lanning. at least then when someone acts like a little b*tch, we can all laugh at him in person.

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## Loman

> I'll stick to lanning. at least then when someone acts like a little b*tch, we can all laugh at him in person.


 :Big Grin: 

And if he's a cheater  :Nono:  he should have darn fast legs too.

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## Loman

Is it possible to connect two switches together so that more could join the lan?

I've got a SMC 8 port switch and at the moment there are 6 guys that want to join our monthly get together. would it work if i connect another SMC 8 port switch to the existing one or do i have to buy a bigger one?

The SMC 8 is only about R 160 while the 16 port is R 450.

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## twinscythe12332

yup yup. just get a crossover cable.

Reviewing other websites, I see if they both have uplinks you could also use a regular cable. so might as well try that as well. if I remember correctly my friend and I used a regular cable to get our 2 SMC gigabit switches chatting.

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Loman (12-Jan-09)

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## Loman

If this works i can get three 8 port switches with a total of 20 usable ports for +- the same price of the 16 port.

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## twinscythe12332

> If this works i can get three 8 port switches with a total of 20 usable ports for +- the same price of the 16 port.


hmmm, that depends. if you're planning on going with 3x 100mbit 8 ports, I'd suggest going for the big boy. however, if you've got your eyes set on 1gbit switches, and your aim is gaming rather than sending files (I tend to be targeted at lans for my 700-odd GB of stuff), then 3 of those would be all good hooked up with a cable between each. 6 PCs going through a lone 100mbit cable is... well, it's sick and twisted.

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## Dave A

> If this works...


It works alright. Better yet, the newer switches I've got hooked to our router automatically detects an uplink connection on port 1 if that is how the switch has been deployed. Don't even need the crossover cable.

On my older switches and hubs that had an uplink channel option, the uplink setting had to be made manually.



> 6 PCs going through a lone 100mbit cable is... well, it's sick and twisted.


At the end of the day all the machines in the game are connecting to the game host machine through one cable/port no matter how you spin it, surely.  :Stick Out Tongue:

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## Loman

Thanx. I've ordered one.

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## Frankincense

Loman, "XP beats Vista especially hard when it comes to gaming."...I would like to agree and disagree. Reason is, if you have the correct hardware(say a little Q6600 stock) and sufficient Ram and Vista 64Bit...it beats XP as your games runs 100% OK...and has a better feel to it being on a newer OS...granted it uses more resources... So it's a matter of perception  :Hmmm: 

"Its a well known fact that gamers "don't" use XP if only because of the drop in performance." 
That statement woulda been true about a year or more  ago, but now gamers are grabbing Q66's and other newer goodies in keeping up with the applications being released :Thumbup: 

"In fact you are the first gamer i know of who prefer to use Vista." 
Pleased to meet you. We are many and growing by the second!!!

"....since the only software currently making full use of four or more cores is photoshop software."
 I so have to disagree with you. Almost *every single* application I use utelises all 4 cores(maybe i just have a current mobo that arranges the distribution...who knows :Fish: . Absolutely fantastic having 4 cores utelised by most (all) it seems software. Whether DVD/Multimedia, Games,... hell, even in idle state each core is twitching...

I'd definitely have to agree with Twinscythe, quad cores are more durable and a wiser investment. 

Twinscythe, "...as for the CPU, leave it alone."

I've had so much fun tweaking the GHz on the Q66, I would so encourage Loman to have a ball playing with her....agreed he must just watch for cooking her, but the VMax is way towards 90Celcius, and can easily be OC'ed on a stock Intel fan should he desire a ride into the unknown...

I'd suggest the Q66 @ 2.4 GHz(They're about R2600) and if it slows down when running Crysis and other heavier applications, just open your FSB and Votage to get a decent 10% overclock if you feel to go 2.64 GHZ...then nothing will stand in your way :Yes: ..these are overclockable till 4GHZ+ (Stable)...if you're extreme...Yeah, consider as TwinScythe mentioned, adjust the timing setting lower on your RAM too...the 2 (RAM & CPU) work kinda hand in hand....just depends where on your rig you have bottlenecks..if you do.(let's ignore the Power supply/N,S-Bridge& RAM voltages)
 Windows Vista index performer will tell you exactely which components of your pc are having the lowest base score (I dont think XP even has a Perfomance Indexer?)

spunkybob123
Posted Apr 7, 2008 2:49 am PT

Honestly... working in a computer shop as a tech and hearing alot of peoples opinons, the only people that complain about vista are the people who have computers that cant run it well.

My computer is not cutting edge except for my vid card (AMD X2 4600, 3GB DDR2, 8800GTX OC) and vista is awesome. So far i have only had 1 game not work and thats coz of starforce protection, might work with SP1 but i stopped caring. Im still getting 100+ FPS in games like HL2 and Dirt. DX10 is nice but crysis is boring as hell so i dont play it, Hellgate london looks pritty but i still run in DX9 mode coz its faster.

I still rekon all SP1 did was add 80ish + mb of windows protection to stop people using OEM exploits and stuff.(That's your temptation to pirate Loman)

From:
http://www.gamespot.com/features/6188289/index.html

There are many of us who love Vista!!!..it's definitley a hardware issue :Badpc: 

"Perhaps if you use XP as an OS instead of Vista you won't even need to overclock. By the way, on a system such as yours you don't need to overclock in the first place. You'll barely see a performance gain when playing games and stressing your components unnecessarily."  
True, but it's not out of neccessity.... and the difference is noticable...especially on OC'ing my CPU frequency as stock speed's @ 2.4...but I prefer running her around 2.7...but the thing is, OC'ing is more fun as a science than a neccessity...kinda like chipping your cab and  branching the manifolds, or popping a turbo on a Huyabusa...if 330Km/h isn't enough...let's do 420Km/h...with all the tunnel vision, who can tell the difference?.....true?...we are all different...and I love stressing things for pleasure.

Linux, well, is for business, but Gamers will naturally remain on Microsoft..unless Linux enters the gaming market and overtakes it due to gaming compatibility issues on Linux....(An aquantance of mine hosts a Gigabyte 100 member Lan Party in halls around KZN and he agrees : Linux..not for gaming at this stage)

Oh well....trust you will decide wisely on your rig's components...as that will decide how happy you are with your software...not the other way round... and lastly, availability of cash will decide both of those....it's all good.

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## twinscythe12332

hahaha, I can appreciate what you say there Francois. I also enjoy the feeling of overclocking my components. especially when a game is getting a bit offish, but then you overclock and she runs smooth. 

when I said don't touch the CPU, I should have been more specific. I'd advise against overclocking when the CPU and the motherboard share the same FSB. learnt it the hard way through blue screens a plenty (nvidia 680i LT mobo, 2.66GHz Core2Duo) and thinking about it now, it feels like a kind of "no duh". kinda sucks when I've got OCZ memory at 800MHz BEGGING to be pushed to 1066, so all I could do is change the timings. now that I think about it, maybe I can push my board's FSB up to allow the extra glory... anyway, as you said, it's a kind of science. tweak this, change that, make that slider go to the end of its limits and you've got happiness  :Big Grin:

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Frankincense (14-Jan-09)

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## Loman

Perhaps i should go with a quad. But not the Q66. Isn't it a bit old?
A lot of people have the hots for vista, but i'd rather wait for win7.

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## twinscythe12332

> Perhaps i should go with a quad. But not the Q66. Isn't it a bit old?
> A lot of people have the hots for vista, but i'd rather wait for win7.


you could do the whole vista thing... I do believe microsoft is doing an upgrade offer after a certain date (so you don't look like a complete nosh getting vista just as windows 7 comes out) but yeah, I agree with you on that one, save up some cash, maybe fork out for a new PC and windows 7 so that you can embrace the joy  :Big Grin:

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## Loman

The whole XP vs Vista war is similar  to the PC vs Console thing.
I find Vista a complete waste of money.

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## twinscythe12332

> The whole XP vs Vista war is similar  to the PC vs Console thing.
> I find Vista a complete waste of money.


okay, first thing's first. 
when did you first use vista?
which version of vista did you use?
what features of vista did you like/ dislike?
did you use it for more than a month?

quite frankly, the 600 bucks extra I paid for vista ultimate were well spent. when xp pro was sitting at 1299 vs vista ultimate's 1899, I thought it was time to upgrade (considering i was getting a new PC at the tiime).

here's some of the stuff I enjoyed:

installation process was easy enough, proceeded to fill my PC with all the programs and whatever I usually use, did the updating, sorted. now usually with XP, as you install more programs, as the registry becomes more cluttered, heck, even as you use the PC, that time between  logging in and general system stability (ie you can open your start menu, hit a program and it'll load up) gets longer and loonger and looooonger until you're sitting there waiting 5 minutes for your PC to get a hold of what it's doing. with vista it hasn't really changed. there is possibly an extra 3 seconds from when I first installed it.

the search bar that can be found anywhere. kills XP. if I know the general folder location, why do I need to click through a bunch of menus, or search the entire PC to find it? type in search criteria, wait 5 seconds, my file is there.

fresh interface. I don't care that it takes 30 meg for it. that's a drop in the ocean for something that looks visually stunning. We've come a long way from when you'd have a killer PC if it had 512MB ddr 400, so if you don't want to spend that little bit extra, who's really to blame. with XP. blue bar. blue bar. *yawn*

XP does have advantage with drivers. I'm okay to admit that. because I don't use that old dot matrix printer, and I don't use that old barcode scanner. anything I want to use is current.

as I've said on other forums, vista was the best thing microsoft did for itself. a system hated by the public? kinda knocks them off their pedestal a tad, doesn't it. naturally I will admit windows 7 is going to be better than vista. it's to be expected. but as for XP being a better system than vista, that's debateable.

as with consoles vs PC, it all depends what "game" you're playing.

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## Frankincense

XP is history  :Sorry:  Vista is current! :Applaud:  All past, present & FUTURE  Operating System's have thier issues, but who'd want to live in the past? The blessings of the future can only be realised by embracing that which is *new*. I love Vista and would probably love Win 7 too and *whateva comes out after that*...as it's all about moving on!!! :Yes: 

Comparing the difference of XP and Vista to Consoles vs PC's is probably the best thing you could have done: Consoles are for Kids or Humans who do not understand the intrinsic components' performance within the box's these machines come in :Slap: ! *No console in Earth* can compare to a Overclocked Clocked Quad Core + 2 Nvidia GTX295's in SLI with 4+ Gb Ram.(I would call that a PC - definite Gaming Rig - even with 1 GTX295, you'd still  drop any console :Wave: )

People who cannot afford a REAL gaming RIG would have to settle for those XBox & PS3 type thingy's and spend thier days attempting to defend thier performance by critisizing top end PC's as "way too expensive" or some other lame excuse to deny *True Glory.*...and reality for that matter..Consoles are meant for the masses and  that's why they are so cheap @ around R6000 max... vs a R25 000 PC....oh well...seek and ye shall find....suppose it's all relative to what has been revealed to you and what you want out of life....

Vista kills XP just like Gaming PC's kill Consoles.
 :Shoot: The War is Over!!!

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## Loman

What i meant with pc vs console is that some people prefer console to pc. There is a war going on on some of the forums.

To all of you who would like to convert me to vista i would like to say the following:
If you were in my position would you go and buy vista?
No seriously, with Win7 so close do i really need to waste sooo much money on something i don't like? and then buy win7 as well.
Are you daft?

Perhaps we could set up a poll: Vista vs XP? How many users prefer XP to Vista?

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## twinscythe12332

hahaha, yup, you're a fanatic.

I don't know what the "real" PC vs console war is all about, all I can do is give my personal take on what's good on a console and what's good on a PC. 

console is pretty constant, you don't suddenly change components. so that kinda hinders the growth of it in terms of graphics and the likes, where with a PC, you just upgrade components and move on. so as you said, if you've got the cash, you're sorted on the PC side.

 however, that could also be seen to detract from the PC's general awesomeness. why buy something that needs constant upgrading when there's a good gaming alternative? as much as that 25k rig is awesome, it's also losing the plot. if we boil this down to gaming experience, I doubt anyone who owns a console is unhappy. after all, it is about the gaming, not about the money involved. 

a console is dedicated to a lone purpose, whereas a PC is a multi-function tool. and, I think, that is where a lot of your argument will be. 

in the end, people on a console are just as happy as people on a PC. heck, I can bet a few people have both, and swap between them without batting an eyelid. (I've got a PSP as well as my PC, and I get engaged in games on both of them)

in the end, games are designed for a system. what those games are doing is providing enjoyment and entertainment for those who are playing them. you don't NEED a R25000 PC to run games. 

anywho PC vs Console in terms of hardware, PC will win.
PC vs Console in gaming, is user preference.

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## twinscythe12332

> What i meant with pc vs console is that some people prefer console to pc. There is a war going on on some of the forums.
> 
> To all of you who would like to convert me to vista i would like to say the following:
> If you were in my position would you go and buy vista?
> No seriously, with Win7 so close do i really need to waste sooo much money on something i don't like? and then buy win7 as well.
> Are you daft?
> 
> Perhaps we could set up a poll: Vista vs XP? How many users prefer XP to Vista?


from my side, it's not that I'm trying to convert you to vista, it's that I'm tired of hearing "vista's crap." they did a test where they showed XP users who said vista was crap, and how they didn't like it all a new OS called "mojave." the feedback was almost all positive. then they told the people that it was actually vista they were looking at.

I can understand that home and basic, or whatever they are, are below par. but business and ultimate are pretty good.

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## Dave A

The thing that gets me about spending R25k on a PC rig is you could build it for almost half as much within a year later. Sometimes within 6-9 months.

On Vista - the relatively short life of it as the "latest and greatest" OS gives a clue, I think. Overall it's been a bomb. 

Whether that is because of the rep from its pathetic home version, the bs about Vista ready hardware, the MS software like Office that came out at the same time and were also in pathetic bundles (not to mention the absence of a patch for people on the widely deployed Office 2003 that were suddenly getting files emailed to them they couldn't open), Nortons' AV that turned into the PC equivalent of Imodium because they tried (and failed) to come to terms with the Vista kernel.... It doesn't matter.

There are enough people who don't like Vista to make it a bomb.

I hope Windows 7 is going to live up to the hype/hope.

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