# General Business Category > General Business Forum > [Question] A newbie's question:How do you think the quality of Made in China stuff?

## JasmineCassie

Hi there,
I'm a newbie in this forum and this is my first post, we are a China-based retail and wholesale company, we located in Hong Kong. Right now we decided to develop our business in SA. We just want to investigate how do you think the quality of Chinese goods. You know most of the importer think Chinese stuff is cheap but the quality and their credit can not be trusted.
How do you think about it and have you ever bought a Made in China stuff? :Big Grin:

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## Newretailer

Honestly? Most of my experience with Made in China has not been that good. More than that, I have an issue with the following:

1) Our local industries are dying off because everyone is out for a buck and import cheap Chinese stuff and sell it at huge profits. Our clothing industry is but one example (anyone shopped at Woolworths lately?). In a country with the unemployment South Africa have, we are contributing to poverty and crime by supporting China and not local. 

2) The quality of many things coming from China is really bad, yet we pay similar prices here than before for the good stuff. It appears as if most things coming from China are made to last for the minimum amount of time. This means the enormous waste problem the world already faces, is just compounded and compounded. Another example of quality that comes to mind is the many dog food brands that had to be recalled more than once in America, because dogs were dying due to contaminated ingredients from China.

3) Factories in China are known for gross human rights abuses. Workers are treated like slaves. Bad conditions and treatment, minimum wages. 
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...t-suicide.html There are many more.

Did you know that the election in Zambia was not about jobs, infrastructure etc., but about how the government of Zambia supported China after workers were shot at in Chinese-owned miines in Zambia? 
http://chinadigitaltimes.net/china/zambia/ and
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-11558741

4) Because of the above, China has the financial power to get countries to do as it wants, like prescribing to our government whether the Dalai Lama is allowed in our country or not.

It seems to me that the world is paying a high price for the cheap imports, but not many care as long as there is profit to be made.

None of this is meant against you personally, but let us not pull the wool over our eyes at the high price we are truly paying for imports.

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Blurock (23-Sep-11)

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## shani

> Honestly? Most of my experience with Made in China has not been that good. More than that, I have an issue with the following:
> 
> 1) Our local industries are dying off because everyone is out for a buck and import cheap Chinese stuff and sell it at huge profits. Our clothing industry is but one example (anyone shopped at Woolworths lately?). In a country with the unemployment South Africa have, we are contributing to poverty and crime by supporting China and not local. 
> 
> 2) The quality of many things coming from China is really bad, yet we pay similar prices here than before for the good stuff. It appears as if most things coming from China are made to last for the minimum amount of time. This means the enormous waste problem the world already faces, is just compounded and compounded. Another example of quality that comes to mind is the many dog food brands that had to be recalled more than once in America, because dogs were dying due to contaminated ingredients from China.
> 
> 3) Factories in China are known for gross human rights abuses. Workers are treated like slaves. Bad conditions and treatment, minimum wages. 
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...t-suicide.html There are many more.
> 
> ...


I have to admit that somethings really happened .
We are Chinese manufactory ,Hope we can change you mind someday.

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## gordo

Woah the chinese business people are taking over this forum. Seems like they really wanna sell stuff to south africans.

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## adrianh

I hardly think one can blame the Chinese for our poor work ethic. The Chinese work their butts off while our lot dance, chant and destroy property demanding higher wages and less work. I imported a laser cutter directly from China and I also purchased a CNC milling machine from a Chinese supplier. I am very happy with the machines. I paid a fair price for them and they are well worth it. Some Chinese products are junk and some are good. We are quick to say that Chinese products are junk yet 80% of all electronics and plastics manufacturing is outsourced to China. We don't have the infrastructure, skill, training or work ethic to do the work locally. I know a local electronics manufacturing company who out sourced all their work to China because the labour gave them such a hard time. I also know a ventilation company that shut their factory in Cape Town for the same reason. Another one is a ceramics company in Hermanus, same story. The average South African worker is lazy and believes that he is worth a hell of a lot more than  he really is. Our workforce put themselves out of work with their strikes and demands. I will install another 10 Chinese CNC machines before I hire another walking overhead!

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kahoel117 (22-Sep-11)

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## kahoel117

*what a way to welcome a newcomer 

as for comment on china, alot is probably true. though i do think that most of our (SA's) problems is self made. 

i read the other day about money shortages for upgrades to schools and health care nationwide, then on the next page i read about under ministers getting 5 million rand houses (UNDER MINISTERS !!!). then what do ministers get  . also driving cars worth R500k+ !? our main problem is management, specially those who were appointed to look after us. 

to even think that after decades of manufacturing/assembling/building cars...trucks for different automotive companies around the world, we still cant produce our own commercial cars/trucks. that is why investors/companies from other countries like investing here...because there is a market to be satisfied. 

now if only those stupid bastards in government would stop wasting our tax money, and spend it on things that is really important ... that would be great !

i guess thats just wishfull thinking .... *

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## Newretailer

Adrian, except this is not only a South African problem. Do you think the whole world except China has a bad work ethic? Chinese workers are becoming unhappy and are making rumblings for better salaries. Same work ethic maybe, just less freedom to express their discontent. I am certainly not saying South Africans have a good work ethic, but I think the underlying problem is much larger than work ethic. 

And yes, I buy made in China. I do look (very hard) for alternatives, but it is getting harder and harder to find. 

Obviously they have good quality products too, but I suspect Africa is the dumping ground for stuff that doesn't cut it in the rest of the world. 

I buy sodium hydroxide to make soap with. South Africa produces a fantastic quality. Pure and white. The stuff from China is grey. I have had to throw out many batches of finished product because it just doesn't perform well. Almost all I can find at any given time is the stuff from China. It is not cheaper either.

Kahoel, he asked for opinions. Should one continue to "be polite" and ignore the bigger picture? Will we only wake up when the only industry left in the world is located in China or Chinese owned companies? Have you ever thought about the monopoly that will be? 

Shani & Jasmin, this is not personal. Every person from China that has been on this forum has been polite and very friendly. In the same way that I cannot be held responsible for the actions of our government, you cannot be held responsible for the powers to be in your country, so please know that my intention is not to hurt your feelings. I suspect you guys are the biggest victims.

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## adrianh

The problem still remains that we are not competitive. Our labour and labour laws foster an environment for lazyness. What are we to do: I can import a machine from the US and pay 3 times as much as I do from China or I can buy a local machine with parts sourced from China. I agree that many other countries manufacture vastly superior products, Germany, Sweden etc - the problem remains the cost. I am not in a position to subsidize over priced South African products - I have to watch my costs or go under. I think that the problem is not so much that China is dumping low quality products in Africa - I think the problem is that China is dumping high quality service in Africa. If I email my Chinese machine supplier on a Saturday evening i get a response within 24 hours. if I email the local supplier, i might get a response in 3 days.

You must also remember that you can buy anything from anywhere in the world - All you need is the internet and a credit card. If you feel that the South African or American or whatever country's products are superior you could simply purchase the product and get it in via DHL. We live in a world where we no longer need to buy from the local supplier. If the local supplier doesn't add value then i simply buy directly from the source.

I don't know, I am very weary of the whole buy South African at any cost notion - look at the Jule motorcar - now there is a total waste of money. Another thing to think about - we are supposed to buy a rugby jersey from the local distributor for R600. He has it made in China for R10. If the guy on the street corner sells the same jersey for R100 then it is considered to be illigal. Now, who is the culprit, the Chinese for offering to make the product, the local distributor for making a fortune or the guy on the street corner eeking out a living. If the major sporting bodies are to act this way and not support local industry then where does it leave the little guy who wans to run a little business.

I don't profess to have answers - I do think that we need to look very seriously at our labour laws and our productivity, otherwise companies such as Mercedes, BMW & Volkswagen may just pack up and go elsewhere.

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Dave A (24-Sep-11)

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## Martinco

I agree fully with the statement about the labour situation but comming back to the quality issue.......

I bought 2 chinese wire cutters in 1992 and have been using them ever since. Both machines have approx 25000 hours each and if one had to relate this to a motor vehicle it would be approx 2500000 km (100km/hr).
Further......I have spent less than R10,000 to keep them going for the total period.(electricity and consumables excluded)

So in my case I think not a bad buy at about 25% the price of european machines.

There are other cases though especially in the power generotor side where the quality is not good. Same goes for hand tools where you think you have a 13mm spanner but in fact you do not have one that will do the job. It actually breaks while still in the tool cabinet !

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## adrianh

> It actually breaks while still in the tool cabinet


This reminds me of something somebody once said in a meeting when the program we were developing for a customer failed yet again: He said that all software's natural state is to be broken. If you leave a working program long enough, whether you use it or not, it will simply return to its natural state. There is a lot of truth in this considering that operating systems change, hardware changes and of course staff turns over.

You know, Namibia bought Chinese railway goods wagons. The wagon was supposed to be a duplicate of the South African DZ-7. It seems that the Chiese made a tiny mistake, the wagon was 10% oversize inevery respect. Much local engineering was needed to get them mobile. Another one is the Chinese diesel locomotives in Namibia. They look the part but are horribly underpowered. So yes, there are issues but I think that if one is able to work around the problems that one could good milage from Chinese equipment.

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## yuemax

As an old Durbanite, now stationed in China, and deeply involved with quality control in China, I'd like to offer my 2c's worth...

Personally, I have little sympathy for people who complain about bad quality. The quality you get, is directly related to a number of factors directly in your control:

1. Price - if you "nickle and dime" your Chinese supplier to the point where they are making virtually nothing out of the deal, you are asking for trouble. I have a side business where I manufacure very high-end baseball caps - I am happy to pay a bit extra, because then the supplier is happy with his margins, and my products come out PERFECT everytime (sigh, shameless punt: www.PandadStuff.com for the caps).

2. Specifications - if you  lax about product specifications, then they will be lax about production standards. You have to (!!!!!!!) have very detailed spec's on your product - even down to raw materials.

3. Samples - usually the samples the supplier will give you will be of excellent quality. Ensure that the factory give you pre-production samples also - based on factory-floor output - not from the sampleroom dept. Seal the sample up securely - keep one at the factory, give one to your client, and keep one at hand - that way all parties are "eating off the same table".

4. Inspect - Pls see my previous "China for Dummies" post this morning. If your product is high value, high risk - have a third-party inspection company (shameless punt: www.TopInspection.com) perform a DUPRO inspection - it will protect your quality. Make sure my inspectors have full access to specification documents - AND - the approved pre-production sample. Then, prior to shipment, have an AQL-based final random pre-shipment inspection done.

5. Payment Terms - make it very clear from the beginning that the shipment and subsequent payment will only be done on an approved inspection report. If by L/C, make it an official condition, that an approved inspection report/certificate by us will need to be issued.

6. Contracts - OK, this is getting interesting now in China, as recourse to the legal system is getting stronger. Ensure that your contract with the Chinese supplier is in English AND Chinese, and that it is signed and chopped by them. 

7. Relationships (Guanxi) - if you intend on doing a lot of orders with factories/suppliers, be sure to maintain and develop a good relationship. It is important to visit here regularly, and to build that relationship. Never ever let any senior management loose face - I made that mistake once, and it took 6 months of hard work, whisky & KTV to get back to a reasonable relationship.

Anyways, the above are just my observations as an old South African living in China....

Cheers,
Max

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## Dave A

I think the challenge that faces the "Made in China" brand is differentiating between the cheap Chinese knock-offs and quality products. Quality products and components have been coming out of China for years already, predominantly in association with "well known Western brands". 

I suggest the biggest obstacle these quality Chinese operations face is overcoming the harm that has been done to the Made in China brand by the cheap knock-off industry, which up until now has been the more public face of products out of China.

It is clear China has companies with the capacity to produce quality products at highly competitive pricing (at least for now). The trouble is how does the prospective consumer know they're dealing with one of these companies as opposed to a cheap knock-off operation that doesn't produce a quality product?

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## Blurock

One of my clients are importing SABS approved products from China. Very good quality and with very low failures.

There are always risks with imports, which ever country you buy from. What we still need to learn is that the cheap imports from China is just that; cheap! If you order crap you get crap.   
 :Badpc:  (this is the cheap imported PC from India)

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## Upstairs

I think China is where Japan was in the sixties. I believe the quality will come, but yes, they are flooding the market with cheap and nasties. However, there are good quality starting to flow from China.

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yuemax (25-Sep-11)

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## yuemax

Hi Upstairs,

No Chinese supplier will ever release goods without a Purchase Order from a second-party. "Flooding the Market" is not in the dictionary here - there is always someone else involved in the deal...

@Blurock - yes, if you have reliable partners in China, you can achieve really good quality results so long as you have good relationships, and control the quality independently. For solar products, ShenZhen is a really leading the way in terms of innovation and costing.

Cheers,
Max

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## roryf

Yuemax,how do I get hold of you?

I need to bring in a few containers from the Qingdao area over the next 2-4 months.I need quality checks done to ensure the product is correct.

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## shani

Thanks for all good impression you say. I think most of Chinese exporter are reliable, and want to make win-win situation to others.

I understand  what Newretailer said. 
Frankly speaking, i have complained to a  big company for their products problem, havenot got a satisfactory answer. when i searched online i find many people complain to them. I think if more and more people donot trust them, how can the company survive on the world?

But very interesting ,at the this day i complained. I received another company's products fittings just for free. they send fittings every year  on August as a after-sale service to me. 

So, we can not say they are all bad or they are all good. Just part and part.

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## Tulsi

Well even I agree with you all. In India, we have so much of stuff coming in from China, but in a way I feel the quality is way to bad. I recently brought few toys for my kids and they actually broke in few days. It is very sad to see that just because we as consumers do not really know what would really turn out to be good, we just go and purchase anything.

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## yuemax

Hi all,

Just as a reference for you, about 40% of our inspections are failed.

This is generally due to the three main aspects within a third-party inspection: 1. Product non-conformity to specifications, 2. Function test failure/non-conformity, 3. Beyond AQL on the random pieces inspected (typically AQL is set at 0/2.5/4, Level II).

Of course, the client can decide what to do if a report is failed, but it does give the client significant leverage to push for a discount, or to get the factory to re-work/retro-fit the product. After that, we generally perform a re-inspection (which the client gets the factory to pay for).

So, sometimes, if you do encounter crap products, it's may well be that the buyer managed to get a good discount out of the factory, and wants to offload it and make a quick buck.


Cheers
Max

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## mffireworks

Nowsdays international trade is hard to deal with for thousands of industries, companies, factories in China. 

After the price quoted, there would be bargain always. In order to seize the business opportunity, never letting the clients to be their competitor's clients. Business man has to make concession, lower the price and make the business with little profit. But the price would still be high to the inquirer, so the factory has to use some cheap materials to make the products. Then leads to the result: made in China equals to poor quality!

What is the main reason for the issue?  It think both the Buyer and seller should take this question into deep consideration.

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## mffireworks

> Nowsdays international trade is hard to deal with for thousands of industries, companies, factories in China. 
> 
> After the price quoted, there would be bargain always. In order to seize the business opportunity, never letting the clients to be their competitor's clients. Business man has to make concession, lower the price and make the business with little profit. But the price would still be high to the inquirer, so the factory has to use some cheap materials to make the products. Then leads to the result: made in China equals to poor quality!
> 
> What is the main reason for the issue?  It think both the Buyer and seller should take this question into deep consideration.



Sorry, the last sentence should be " I think..........."


Michelle

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## Dave A

> What is the main reason for the issue?


I think the starting point for this "quality problem" is the mindset of 




> In order to seize the business opportunity, never letting the clients to be their competitor's clients


When you start chasing clients at any cost, something has to suffer - normally either the quality or the profit.

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yuemax (27-Oct-11)

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## yuemax

> I think the starting point for this "quality problem" is the mindset of 
> 
> 
> When you start chasing clients at any cost, something has to suffer - normally either the quality or the profit.


@DaveA - could not agree with you more. People bitch and moan about how terrible the quality of "Made in China" products are - a BIG contribution to that is if the supplier get "nickled & dimed" on every order. Combine that with inadequate QC - that's a perfect storm brewing...

On a side note, I'm dealing currently with a case of suspected bribery of one of our inspectors. It gets quite murky when you dig deeper. I'll post the result later...

Cheers,
Max

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