# Social Category > General Chat Forum >  Smoking at work........

## zobs

What's your take on smoking at work?
Do people who smoke at work entitled to do so at the work place?

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## Citizen X

" The man who founded New York City in 1653"

My stance is simple, I believe that legislation is too harse for the smoker. I know the harmful effects of a cigarrette but I chose to smoke. I can understand the rationale behind not smoking in closed rooms etc, but I simply feel that If I buy a pack of cigarettes(I'm not breaking in a shop to get my cigarettes), I'm paying for it at Shoprite or Pick n Pay or the corner store, then I should be allowed to smoke my cigarette. I feel that truck smoke causes far more harm, but noone seems to care about that. A cigarette is not a mind alterating drug, it's not going to cause you to knock someone down such as a drunken driver, and yet there's such a big fuss about it.
The workplace, I can understand, there's customers, fellow staff etc, so it will have to be regulated. The question is how, according to the current legislation. I'm not entirely certain if the designated smoking area at work is still allowed? Is it still allowed?

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## zobs

Vanash what's your personal view?

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## adrianh

I would never employ a person who smokes. Smokers waste at leastm30% of the day standing around, talking crap and stinking up the stairwells. 

I don't urinate on your desk so don't stink up my air.

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Martinco (05-Mar-13)

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## zobs

Adrian, dnt you think you will have a policy in place if you were the employer?

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## ians

Smoking is a waste of employers time and money, like social networks.

The policy in my company, so long as i dont see you smoking or smell it, or catch you wasting my customers money while standing around smoking, being paid by the hour, i dont really care how you get your puff in.

Nobody is allowed to smoke near my workshop, due to fire hazard, because of all the wood chippings, it would result in instant dismisal , if caught, and if the law tells me i cant fire a person beacause of it, life would become such a miserable place at work.

And yes i was a smoker for 10+ years.

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## AndyD

Before I quit, smoking used to annoy the hell out of me, not because it's antisocial because that doesn't bother smokers...same way someone with stomach cramps from last nights vindaloo is just going to fart without worrying, it annoyed me because I couldn't quit the habit. I smoked since my uni days and eventually quit in my late thirties. I set myself a goal of 2 years smoke free but it was 2 years and a couple of months when I decided I'd start smoking again for no other reason than I enjoyed it and after that time without cigarettes I knew I could quit so it no longer annoyed me.

I restarted smoking before the legislation was even thought of so it was easy. Nowadays with the laws and the social stigma it takes resolution and will power to be a smoker  :Wink:

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## adrianh

I smoked for many many years. I stopped on the 29th of December 1995. I agree 100% with Ians but I still would not employ a smoker. I also spent many years watching smokers waste lots and lots of time standing around wasting time.

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## zobs

Andy lets stick to the Initial Post please.

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## adrianh

Zobs - please read the second sentence of your initial post carefully, the sentence does not make sense.

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## zobs

2nd sentence: people/employees who smoke at work are they entitled to smoke at work?

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## zobs

so Adrian, when you say you wouldn't employ a smoker is that not discrimination which is against the labour act?

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## adrianh

Ah but you see, I have right to evaluate the suitability of a person to fit into my workplace and I feel that smokers are unsuitable for my workplace. I don't employ people who are addicted to drugs. - BTW; I consider Nicotine addiction just the same as Heroin addiction, think about it, a person who is unable to function without taking a little hit every hour has a serious problem. I have no sympathy for smokers just as I have no sympathy for drug addicts, I've been both and I overcame both therefore I feel that I've earned the right to make my judgement (like it, do't like it, that is my position)

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## zobs

Ayt, I feel you.

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## tec0

Smoking at work isn’t a problem at all for me and yes I am a none smoker. But I seriously don’t mind second-hand smoke. Partly because we live in an area where you can actually see the pollution in clear sunlight so really smoking is the last thing on my mind. 

That said you do get electronic cigarettes that can be used in hospitals for example. But let’s be clear on this for a moment. I want to see a ban on alcohol sponsors. And a new law that states that you are not allow to consume alcohol when children are around. The reality is alcohol is responsible for more deaths, abuse and violence then cigarettes. 

Anyone that doesn't want to employ a smoker is a selfish snob. The reality some people have stress medication others, illegal drugs. But if you want to Victimize someone just for having a smoke “electronic or otherwise” then why do business with you in the first place? I wouldn’t do business with anyone that victimize someone else.

sorry I couldn't leave this topic alone. 

simple truth is you want to victimize someone then remember the power of word of mouth. Trust me it hits harder then what most people think.

Also consider that people that uses any type of drug “medical or otherwise” is still using a drug regardless of its label. this is fact so if one is unfit then by definition all must be unfit.

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## tec0

> Ah but you see, I have right to evaluate the suitability of a person to fit into my workplace and I feel that smokers are unsuitable for my workplace. I don't employ people who are addicted to drugs. - BTW; I consider Nicotine addiction just the same as Heroin addiction, think about it, a person who is unable to function without taking a little hit every hour has a serious problem. I have no sympathy for smokers just as I have no sympathy for drug addicts, I've been both and I overcame both therefore I feel that I've earned the right to make my judgement (like it, do't like it, that is my position)


I can't believe I thought of you as a friend  :No:  

I have no respect for people that can't respect other people. The truth is everyone is different. You where strong enough to stop smoking thus everyone weaker then you is nothing and has no place in your world. That is just sad. 

Let me spell it out for you, you have no right to judge anyone.

I am not saying smoking is right but this is worse.

Victimization is really oppression to force your will onto others  :No: 

I know what it is to be victimized and it is not fun. So I cannot support it. And I be damned to hell before I stand [next or with] anyone that victimize others.

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## Citizen X

> Vanash what's your personal view?


My personal view is that the Government should realize how much tax they generate from cigarrettes and furthermore that the workplace should have designated areas for smokers. The rationale being that if you want to have a smoke in your tea time or lunch time, you should feel free to do so. The legislation and bills keep changing, I'm actually not aware of what the law, as it currently stands says about this?

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tec0 (04-Mar-13)

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## Citizen X

> The reality is alcohol is responsible for more deaths, abuse and violence then cigarettes.


I can't help but share Tec0's sentiment here! Alcohol destroys lives but cigarretes don't. It's not a mind altering drug. It may eventually kill the user, but that's as far as it goes. I light up about 6 times a day. I did quit for several years, but smoking does give me some degree of satisfaction.

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tec0 (04-Mar-13)

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## Citizen X

> Ah but you see, I have right to evaluate the suitability of a person to fit into my workplace and I feel that smokers are unsuitable for my workplace. I don't employ people who are addicted to drugs. - BTW; I consider Nicotine addiction just the same as Heroin addiction, think about it, a person who is unable to function without taking a little hit every hour has a serious problem. I have no sympathy for smokers just as I have no sympathy for drug addicts, I've been both and I overcame both therefore I feel that I've earned the right to make my judgement (like it, do't like it, that is my position)


You can't get arrested for possession of cigarrettes but you can for drugs! You can smoke when you drive but you can't drink and drive! Cigarrettes are not mind altering substances. Yes, it's unhealthy for the user and everytime you buy a pack you see the ugly messages it has about you and cancer etc. It doesn't destroy our environment as much as truck polution..

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tec0 (04-Mar-13)

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## Phil Cooper

> I can't help but share Tec0's sentiment here! Alcohol destroys lives but cigarretes don't. It's not a mind altering drug. It may eventually kill the user, but that's as far as it goes. I light up about 6 times a day. I did quit for several years, but smoking does give me some degree of satisfaction.


It is shown that passive smoking is as dangerous, or more so, than smoking yourself.

So killing yourself is NOT "as far as it goes" - you are also affecting the non smokers around you.

I saw a sticker re smoking once.

Guy said - Your smoking makes me smell, and affects my lungs.

I enjoy a beer, the side effect is urine.

Do you mind if I come and eliminate my urine in your lap?


I have a friend who dies of cancer from smoking. He drowned on the blood in his throat.

So - don't say it doesn't destroy lives. It certainly, and definitely, does.

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## tec0

> I enjoy a beer, the side effect is urine.


So it is ok for a drunk driver to wipe-out an entire family of 4 because he just had to have that one beer. 

It is ok for a mother to drown her baby because she was too drunk realise the child’s head was underwater. 

It is ok for a drunken father to abuse is children while so drunk that he can’t see right from wrong.

Alcohol is a true evil.  

True a smoke leaves a bit of a smell but not nearly as bad as vomit on your car carpet or in your home. Not to mention alcoholic stink like old bread. 

Truth is for you to suffer any effect from second hand smoke you need to go into a smoking room and live in it. Alcohol kills! and yet they proudly sponsor sport and you must drink responsibly!! A simple question how many deaths are linked to alcohol?

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Citizen X (05-Mar-13)

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## Citizen X

> I enjoy a beer, the side effect is urine.


A very good evening to you Phil :Big Grin:  Just another 30 minutes and it will be good morning..

You raise  pretty fair statements, you may enjoy a beer responsibly, but have a look at the stats for teh December period. So many lost their lives due to drunkenss behind the wheel. Notice that they don't just smash their vehicle into the oblivion, it's more often than not involves other innocent and sober drivers. Not much attention there, but the guy who doesn't drink, doesn't take drugs and merely lights up a cigarette is deemed to be causing so much harm! If that little smoke can do so much harm, what about the fumes from the truck that you drive behind?

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tec0 (04-Apr-13)

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## adrianh

Vanash, you can argue it any way you like, you ain't going to change my mind. The fact that you can't get arrested for smoking doesn't change the fact that it is an addictive drug. Addiction is not characterized by a substance being legal or not nor is it characterized by being mind altering, it is characterized by creating a dependency. A smoker is dependent on their little fix.

tec0

I can't believe I thought of you as a friend  
- that's your choice

I have no respect for people that can't respect other people. The truth is everyone is different. You where strong enough to stop smoking thus everyone weaker then you is nothing and has no place in your world. That is just sad. 
- I have no sympathy for people that smoke and I don't have to employ them and I have no regard for people who claim that they are unable to quit (I am a total dumbass and I could quit...anybody can) - to coin a phrase "Your logic is a is a converse exponential stretch"...figure it out

Let me spell it out for you, you have no right to judge anyone.
- of course I have the right to judge, I worked hard and passed the test.

I am not saying smoking is right but this is worse.
- but you just said I don't have the right to judge - now what, you have the right, hmmm, interesting, this special logic sound like religious logic - a special kind of logic where some have rights to do things but others don't...for example "Thou shalt not kill"...but if you are a Palistinian then it is ok for us to smite the crap out of you and your wife and kids and dogs and cats and sommer your chickens as well"

Victimization is really oppression to force your will onto others 
- I don't force nothing on nobody, I have the right to my opinion and I have the right to choose who I employ - howcome you feel the right to chasitize me for expressing my views, I don't give a toss that you don't like my views, they are mine and they belong to me - I don't have to like some views,  some paintings or sculptures or whatever and I am within my rights to express my views. You see, the thing about an opinion is that one can take it or leave it.

I know what it is to be victimized and it is not fun. So I cannot support it. And I be damned to hell before I stand [next or with] anyone that victimize others.
- do you realize that your last sentence is totally circular and contradicts itself - think about it, you victimize me by not want ting to stand next to me, that is terrible, so should I sit at the back of the bus...you know how that idea went down in history.

Victimize - definition
Single (someone) out for cruel or unjust treatment.

Ok, please explain to me how my choosing not to employ a person that smokes victimizes them more than employing them victimizes myself 
1. I don't like the stink smell of a smoker -the smell victimizes my nose and it gives me terrible hayfever (I seem to have become terribly allergic to smoke...cough cough...)
2. I don't like that a person is incapable or going through the day without relying on taking a little hit every hour - the poor mental control victimizes my sensibilities 
3. My staff do not like to be subjected to stink breath when people speak to them and the stink victimizes their sensitive noses...(they prefer the smell of rose petals strewn all over their workbenches because it reminds them of skinny dipping with their favourite girl and that does wonders for their productivity)

My friend, if you want to stop smoking and you claim you are unable to then you are mentally weak. You want me to say "Ag shame man, poor Johnny is unable to give up his little ciggy so I should baby him around my workplace and the entire staff should understand that Johnny has to suck his little dummy every hour) I have the right to judge just as much as my daughters ice skating coach has the right to tell her that her spin is K@K. I am happy that my daughter's coach tells my daughter that her spin is k@k when her spin is k@k so that she is under no illusions about the reality that her spin is k@k. That way my daughter is able to turn her k@k spin into a spectacular spin. I am telling you that you are mentally weak if you want to stop and you claim you can't - you can choose to become mentally strong (in my view) or you can choose not to, that is your choice, but, I do not have to sympathize with you just as my daughter's coach doesn't have to sympathyse with her. My daughter simply agrees that her spin is k@k and she strives to become better.

I am hard and it is what it is - like it don't like it - your choice!

As an aside:
tec0 - I choose to take responsibily for my failing and choose not to be a victim of anything, especially not my own mind (I will fight my failing till the day I die). I will be the one that swings the the baseball bat when the day comes to flatten a skull rather than sulk in the corner crying about being a victim. The Syrians could cry about being victims all their lives or they can choose to say "F_THIS...we may go down in flames but we will not be victims any longer" We are mentally strong or we are mentally weak...

Now, as another aside:
I respect the guy that says that he chooses to smoke because he likes to do so and tells me that he doesn't care whether I like it or not. That is great, he is in control of his choice and he takes a stand, he doesn't cry about being a victim of his habit he stands up and swings his bat...

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## Citizen X

> Vanash, you can argue it any way you like, you ain't going to change my mind. The fact that you can't get arrested for smoking doesn't change the fact that it is an addictive drug. Addiction is not characterized by a substance being legal or not nor is it characterized by being mind altering, it is characterized by creating a dependency. A smoker is dependent on their little fix.


Adrian, even cofee is addictive! Gambling is addictive, yet we smokers seem to be villianized! There's so much worse going on in our society than my 6 cigs a day....

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## Citizen X

> Adrian, even cofee is addictive! Gambling is addictive, yet we smokers seem to be villianized! There's so much worse going on in our society than my 6 cigs a day....


So what is the amicable solution? We already can't smoke in restuarants etc.. maybe we'll just have to confine our activity to our homes, one when you wake up, one in your car and the rest when you at home...

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## adrianh

Vanash - I choose not to employ smokers and I choose to try and avoid people that smoke. That is my choice. I don't  force anybody to do anything, I simply choose to avoid things that annoy me. If you are able to find a workplace where you can smoke then that is fine by me, that employer chooses the way he manages his workplace. I couldn't care less for the rest of it, you are free to choose to do as you see fit. 

Why do you and tec0 have such a problem with the fact that I choose not to employ smokers, I also choose not to employ people who can't think or count or use a screwdriver, that is my choice.

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## adrianh

Lets turn this discussion on its head. 

Would you employ a person who tells you during the interview that he has to fart evry hour and that he carries the smell around with him
Or
The guy says that he has to mastrubate every hour and he carries the smell of latex condom with him
Or
He has to eat garlic every hour.
Or
He likes to brush his teeth with extract of rotten fish 8 times day.

What I am trying to prove with these obviously offensive thoughts is that everybody have reasons why they would probably not employ people based purely on what they consider to be annoying habits.

Come come, be honest now.

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## tec0

I had a page typed out but deleted it. I don’t judge people but you want to see it as judgement because it will help your argument. That said if you wish to compare smoking with sex addiction then that is your call. 

See success and self-worth blinds people. They start to believe that there way is the only way and because they are successful no one has the right to argue. My point of view, I would gladly higher a smoker. I would facilitate their needs. I see smoking not as a recreational drug I see it as self medication. Just like pain pills just like insulin and other forms of chronic medication it has its place. 

Alcohol I do have a problem with. I am not judging I am just pointing out that there are more deaths connected to it. You can do your own research. The reality is you will find info that supports your claims just like I will find info that will support mine. 

But oppression remains oppression regardless of your justification. If you want to be like that then be like that I can’t stop you. But just from my own experience nothing last forever.  

But this thread proofs one thing for me. I must take more time in identifying someone’s personality because I think they are a good person. This is the 4th time this month where I realise that some not all but some are total bellends.

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## adrianh

*But this thread proofs one thing for me. I must take more time in identifying someone’s personality because I think they are a good person. This is the 4th time this month where I realise that some not all but some are total bellends.* 

...and of course this is not a judgement on your part, no no, it is an "moral evaluation of your personal view of the character of another"

Let me explain something to you; lets call it: Logical Thinking 101:
If we state that we hate those who judge others then we, by definition hate ourselves. You need to understand that your argument is circular and absurd. It is the same as saying: "I stand for common religious rules and believe that it is a sin to kill someone but  I believe in the death penalty" - the logic is patently absurd. If your world is to be black and white then it is absurd to say that black=white only when you choose it to be so. 

I am perfectly happy not to accomodate those who want to stink up my environment, it is my choice and it is my right - take it, leave it - I couldn't care less.

So tell me, will you employ somebody who has to fart every hour and then carries his fart smell with him all day long; come come, don't be coy, take a stand and tell me the truth!

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## tec0

adrianh > That is your logical thinking. Me I cannot care less what you do. Honestly I just realise that I always try to see the best in people but never see who they really are. Is it judgement? No… It is a point of view. You can call it judgement or whatever you feel like labelling it. 

Truth is, you can just say look electronic smokes only. They don’t smell and is basically harmless to you as a “second hand smoker”. This is what one may call “solving a problem”. But your own processes words and thinking, you decide to demonise someone for trying to keep their cool. 

I use to work with difficult customers all the time. One morning I looked at the customer shook my head and pullout all my stuff and left. His customers did the same. They saw him for what he was. He tried to get everything for free and blame me for his other contractors I wasn’t even responsible for. 

So do whatever dude in the end it will be your gains and your losses. If you want to crap all over people expect the same treatment.   

Last thing worth stating, I use to have a high respect for your opinion and you as a person.


see you in the funny papers  :Wink:  

cheers  :Wave:

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## Newretailer

I cannot resist replying to this thread. I smoked for 20 years. The stricter laws started coming in while I was still smoking and even then I was happy to work in an environment that was smoke-free. Every hour us smokers got up and stood outside smoking, taking at least 10 minutes. I wasted a LOT of time. The first thing I realised when I gave up is how productive I suddenly was. Now, if someone smokes close to me my chest constricts and I struggle to breath. Do smokers care? Some do, but many are inconsiderate. As long as they get their fix. 

I too will never employ someone who smokes. I know first-hand how much time gets wasted. I think the smoking laws are wonderful. When I started working, the majority of people smoked. By the time I left 25 years later, I was often in a meeting of 10 people where no one smoked. 

As far as the alcohol argument goes, I feel the same about alcohol and don't drink. I am past the stage where I need a crutch to go through the world . I agree 100% with everything Adrian said. I realise how wonderful it is not to have to absorb someone else's second-hand smoke whenever I do walk past a smoker. One of the good things the government did.

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Martinco (05-Mar-13)

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## tec0

All I see is ego, this thread stinks of it. One day you may find yourself on the losing end where someone with a silver spoon up there a$$ tells you, you are not allowed to live anymore. There reasons will be shallow and you will feel what others have felt when you did it to them. Thankfully I know this is how life works. The table always turn. Right now you are free to judge. But one-day you will be judged. Your judge will be like you in every way and in every form. I experienced it thus I know this to be true. 

Now I am sure you think this is BS and all that. And you may well have a snappy comeback for what is written here. But I would rather ask of you to look at solutions "electronic smokes are actually inexpensive once you get the kit" But if you feel you want to take someone's ability away to provide for her/himself and there family. 

I cannot support that at all... This is what I call the god complex... Only you matters. 

Yea I think I have seen enough.







***For when men call themselves gods of the world, it will not be a world worth living in***

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## Newretailer

Really Tec0? All I see is someone who becomes upset if people do not agree with him. As far as the god complex, can you see the irony? You are the smoker and only your smoking matters.

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## Citizen X

> I cannot resist replying to this thread. I smoked for 20 years. The stricter laws started coming in while I was still smoking and even then I was happy to work in an environment that was smoke-free. Every hour us smokers got up and stood outside smoking, taking at least 10 minutes. I wasted a LOT of time. The first thing I realised when I gave up is how productive I suddenly was. Now, if someone smokes close to me my chest constricts and I struggle to breath. Do smokers care? Some do, but many are inconsiderate. As long as they get their fix. 
> 
> I too will never employ someone who smokes. I know first-hand how much time gets wasted. I think the smoking laws are wonderful. When I started working, the majority of people smoked. By the time I left 25 years later, I was often in a meeting of 10 people where no one smoked. 
> 
> As far as the alcohol argument goes, I feel the same about alcohol and don't drink. I am past the stage where I need a crutch to go through the world . I agree 100% with everything Adrian said. I realise how wonderful it is not to have to absorb someone else's second-hand smoke whenever I do walk past a smoker. One of the good things the government did.


*Legally its unfair discrimination to discriminate against a person who smokes i.e. the only reason you don't want to hire him/her is because they smoke! You may however have a code of conduct prohibiting smoking on your premises but your employee should be free to go and have a smoke in his/her tea time or lunch time.*

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## Justloadit

Whilst I do not approve of drinking and driving, it is interesting that we judge alcoholics killing people, but if statistics be done, many many more people die from the effects of smoking than drunken driving.

How Many People Died from Smoking? yearly in the US over 440,000
About how many people die each year from drunk driving accidents? yearly in the US about 12,000

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## adrianh

Vanash, tec0

Will you emply a person who has says that he has to have a terrible stinky fart every hour and then carries the smell around with him?
or
Will you employ a person that doesn't bath and stinks all the time?

Come on - will you?

don't give me the coy "by the book" answer, give me your honest answer.

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## Chrisjan B

What tec0 try to say (I THINK) is that we are moving to a nanny state where the government tell you what to do and someday there will be some law that forces you into something you don't want or like.

It is all about choice and having control of your actions...


I myself enjoy a drink for the fun of it and also because I like the taste, if you don't drink I will not force you... - the choice is yours...

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## adrianh

Don't you think that the government has an obligation to stop the wastage of taxpayers money? Ok, I am sure that you agree that the government does.

So, should the government blindly let people give themselves lung cancer which will cost the tax payer a fortune in medical bills if the person were to go to a government hospital?
We say on the one hand that prevention is better than cure, but we sulk on the other hand when society tries to prevent us from harming ourselves.

It's a matter of having your cake and eating it, you want the government to look after your wellbeing but you don't want the government to stop you from harming yourself...

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## Newretailer

The problem is, Chrismine, that when you smoke your behaviour does affect others around you. I have no problem with anyone smoking at home or in their car as long as I am not in it. Smokers take away the rights of non-smokers if we are forced to breath what a smoker just blew out. The current laws simply protect the rights of non-smokers too. One thing smokers do not realise is whilst you may not smell smoke, to a non-smoker it is a very strong and unpleasant smell.

I am old enough to remember the days when you could smoke in movie houses and at your desk at work. It was not pleasant.

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## Citizen X

> Vanash, tec0
> 
> Will you emply a person who has says that he has to have a terrible stinky fart every hour and then carries the smell around with him?
> or
> Will you employ a person that doesn't bath and stinks all the time?
> 
> Come on - will you?
> 
> don't give me the coy "by the book" answer, give me your honest answer.


On personal hygiene, you have got a valid point! This is why interviews are so very important. If you in the fod industry, you ideally want someone who's presentable and takes personal hygiene serious. The same applies to the hospitatlity industry etc.
Adrian, what if your potential employee tells you that he/she won't smoke in your premises at all and will only smoke during tea time and lunch time. Surely in this case this potential employee's smoking can no longer be an issue for employment as they not smoking at work?

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## Chrisjan B

> Don't you think that the government has an obligation to stop the wastage of taxpayers money? Ok, I am sure that you agree that the government does.
> 
> So, should the government blindly let people give themselves lung cancer which will cost the tax payer a fortune in medical bills if the person were to go to a government hospital?
> We say on the one hand that prevention is better than cure, but we sulk on the other hand when society tries to prevent us from harming ourselves.
> 
> It's a matter of having your cake and eating it, you want the government to look after your wellbeing but you don't want the government to stop you from harming yourself...


I have never expected the government to look after my wellbeing, but at the speed they are now mucking up the country I may need to - unfortunately they will not do a good job....

BTW- I have stopped smoking  7 months ago - I went outside for my smoke every time and did not impose on other people with my secondhand smoke.

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## Newretailer

> *Legally its unfair discrimination to discriminate against a person who smokes i.e. the only reason you don't want to hire him/her is because they smoke! You may however have a code of conduct prohibiting smoking on your premises but your employee should be free to go and have a smoke in his/her tea time or lunch time.*


Vanash, I am just curious on what basis that would be discrimination? I always thought discrimination is predefined: gender, race, disability, sexual orientation and age? If a person undertakes to only smoke during tea break or lunch, it will obviously be ok, but in my experience it doesn't work like that. If you are stressed you want to smoke more and before you know it it is several times a day.

Well done on giving up smoking, Chrismine. You may find you become more anti-smoking as time goes on  :Smile:

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## adrianh

Chrismine - how often and for how long did you go outside to smoke?

Don't you think that you carried the smell back in with your clothing and breath?

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## adrianh

Adrian, what if your potential employee tells you that he/she won't smoke in your premises at all and will only smoke during tea time and lunch time. Surely in this case this potential employee's smoking can no longer be an issue for employment as they not smoking at work?

Fair enough, yes then it will be fine. Very clever, you turned my harsh view into a more reasonable policy.

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## Chrisjan B

I smoked about 10 a day and went outside every time - it took me about 2 minutes to finish a smoke.....

The smell did come in with me yes, but for some reason it was not as bad as other smokers......

Bad breath yes.

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## zobs

Some Companies have policies regarding smoking at work.

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## Phil Cooper

A number of Companies in the USA give non-smokers 3-4 days' extra leave every year.

They say studies show that is the time wasted by leaving work stations to go and smoke outside, and time off for smoking-related diseases.

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## adrianh

There is no getting away from it. As a smoker who wants to smoke at work you expect the employer to make special allowances for YOUR disgusting VICE. As far as I am concerned it is YOUR VICE and your problem.

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## Newretailer

I had a young lady working in my shop. During quiet times there is only person there. I forgot to ask her if she smokes. In the beginning sales were really good. After about two weeks it dropped dramatically, the worst it has ever been. Thankfully her mom opened a shop and she left. My neighbours then told me that she locked the shop frequently to go and smoke, staying away for 20 minutes at a time. 

Of course in the same centre, whilst two guys went outside to smoke, the shop they worked in was stolen from. Big stuff, like TVs. Smoking does not only affect smokers. 

I also know three people who got emphysema. Two died after living horrible lives for 10+ years. Another one is the husband of my one employee. She has been the breadwinner for many years as her husband is too sick to work. Me, I say thanks to the government. I stopped smoking because 1) it became so socially unacceptable, 2) it was so difficult to find places to smoke and 3) because of the expense. The biggest health gift I ever gave myself. No more bronchial pneumonia winter after winter. The strict laws have saved many lives.

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## adrianh

@Nwretailer 

My mother in law died from lung cancer. We spent the last 3 weeks at her bedside watching her wither away connected to a machine pumping 7 ampules of morphine into her each day.

And to think, people actually do this to themselves.

All things being equal, if you want to kill yourself that's fine by me but please put in your will that when you get lung cancer and become unable to care for yourself that you will be happy to swollow a cyanide tablet and save your family a lot of heartache...

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## Newretailer

I guess you don't like smokers then, Adrian  :Big Grin:  

Jokes aside, I think when you are young all of these stories are just stories to you. It is only when you get older that it starts to mean something.

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## adrianh

> Jokes aside, I think when you are young all of these stories are just stories to you. It is only when you get older that it starts to mean something.


For sure, I started smoking in STD 7 and smoked for many many years. I stopped cold turkey one day because my chest was very sore (which it often was)

In all honesty, I don't really care whether people smoke, it's their prerogative, I just don't want to have any part in it, be it active or passive.

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## tec0

> Really Tec0? All I see is someone who becomes upset if people do not agree with him. As far as the god complex, can you see the irony? You are the smoker and only your smoking matters.


I don't smoke so I don't get the irony. Just I have insight, the reality is we live in a stressed out world now if someone needs a smoke to cope with it I say go out and enjoy your smoke come back in and do your job as I know it will not effect performance unless your performance include sports or something like that. 

Tell me what are the side effects of stress medication again? Some include depression and or suicide. But you would rather they use something like that because it is a magic pill right... 

Yea... I remain with my statement this thread is about bosses and there massive egos. Superiority complex to a high degree.

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## adrianh

Tec0 - why don't you answer my simple question:

Will you hire a person who has to have a stinky fart every hour and then carries the smell around all day?
Or
Would you hire a person who does not wash and stinks all day?

Come on, don't be shy, tell us.

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## Dave A

Nothing like a subject as emotive as smoking to produce a fast growing thread  :Stick Out Tongue: 




> Would you hire a person who does not wash and stinks all day?


Depends...

If that person can do the equivalent of turning base metals into gold, I'd probably make some sort of plan to make it viable.

I wouldn't put them as a doorman at a five star hotel, though.

The argument about productivity is contextual too. As example:

I've got a fairly new hire who is responsible for documentation.
The work requires perfect accuracy, which she passed with flying colours in the interview test stage.
However, once deployed - her accuracy rapidly went to pot.
Long story as to to how I figured out her problem (focus), but the solution was to take very regular breaks.
And it has worked. She now produces in a morning more than the equivalent of what she was producing in a full working day going at it "flat out" without breaks.
She wouldn't have needed this intervention if she was a smoker  :Wink:

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Citizen X (07-Mar-13), tec0 (07-Mar-13)

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## tec0

> Tec0 - why don't you answer my simple question:
> 
> Will you hire a person who has to have a stinky fart every hour and then carries the smell around all day?
> Or
> Would you hire a person who does not wash and stinks all day?
> 
> Come on, don't be shy, tell us.


In my line of work we don't get to make that choice but really it wouldn't bother me one bit. Why would I judge someone for there smell and or medical condition. I am sure you will say "yea right" But I use to clean office toilets so really??? you can imagine what that is like. It doesn't bother me because a smell is a smell crap is crap and it has to get clean somehow. 

Also you missed my point of electronic smokes. People can use them "almost" everywhere" no smell no nothing. But that is OK to I don't expect you to keep up with this technology because you don't have a use for it. So really it is cool. Like I said I don't judge. Despite how you see my post it remains observation regardless of the label given.  

The reality is you don't condone it thus you will do what ever you can to eliminate it. All I see is people fighting to survive but they are not allowed to stress or panic or do anything at all. That expectation is unreasonable. 

Question answered.

You cannot compare good Hygiene with smoking as it is not the same thing. A girl I knew would go out have a smoke then use perfume to mask the smell and she would use mouthwash each time she smoked or use gum if she couldn’t use the mouthwash. Most smokers do this even male smokers will use deodorant and gum after a smoke. 

A person with poor hygiene will not walk along these lines now will they? Most of the time poor hygiene is a simple case of a toolbox talk and 99% of the time it takes care of that problem. Sometimes the problem needs to be addressed by a psychiatrist or the like.


My question to you >  Have you any idea why a raven is like a writing desk?

----------


## Newretailer

> I don't smoke so I don't get the irony. Just I have insight, the reality is we live in a stressed out world now if someone needs a smoke to cope with it I say go out and enjoy your smoke come back in and do your job as I know it will not effect performance unless your performance include sports or something like that. 
> 
> Tell me what are the side effects of stress medication again? Some include depression and or suicide. But you would rather they use something like that because it is a magic pill right... 
> 
> Yea... I remain with my statement this thread is about bosses and there massive egos. Superiority complex to a high degree.


Yes, we live in a stressed world. Unfortunately, neither smoking or drinking really alleviates that. As a matter of fact, it makes it worse. You put a lot of assumptions in your posts. Where did I say the alternative is stress medication?  For what its worth I am against any pills unless it is absolutely necessary. A lot of additional stress added in today's world by doctors who prescribe too easily.

It is a free world and we both can have and defend our viewpoints. You do tend to take massive jumps from a simple statement to something totally different, including your god and ego statements. Quite judgemental, it appears to me.

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## tec0

> You do tend to take massive jumps from a simple statement to something totally different, including your god and ego statements. Quite judgemental, it appears to me.


I have a tendency to call a duck a duck.  :Wink:  

Did I judge the duck? Nope just call it by its name....  :Whistling:

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## adrianh

tec0 - Eish, you're surely joking.

Of course I do everything to eliminate stuff from my life that I don't condone. It's is my life, my business, my cheese, my Chi and my choice. 
I used to smoke, I no longer have cigarettes in the house.
I used to own a gun, I gave it to the cops.
I used to take drugs long ago, I no longer have drugs in the house.
I used to drink too much beer, I no longer have more than one or two beers in the house.

My friend, you need to learn that YOUR life is YOUR OWN responsibility and that you CANNOT be a victim all your life.

Those people who CHOOSE to smoke are welcome to CHOOSE to go work somewhere else, I am sure that there are many places where they would be welcome

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## tec0

> tec0 - Eish, you're surely joking.
> 
> Of course I do everything to eliminate stuff from my life that I don't condone. It's is my life, my business, my cheese, my Chi and my choice. 
> I used to smoke, I no longer have cigarettes in the house.
> I used to own a gun, I gave it to the cops.
> I used to take drugs long ago, I no longer have drugs in the house.
> I used to drink too much beer, I no longer have more than one or two beers in the house.
> 
> My friend, you need to learn that YOUR life is YOUR OWN responsibility and that you CANNOT be a victim all your life.
> ...


You haven't answer my question, I am not a victim. Some smokers are victim to depression others have anger problems. Yes you get those who enjoy smoking too this is not untrue. You keep two beers in the house. I don't smoke anymore, don't drink alcohol. So by your standard you are not allowed to come to my home because of the two beers? 

Nah I don't work like that. That said alcohol effects the mind shutting down cognitive thought. Smoking doesn't...

My question to you > Have you any idea why a raven is like a writing desk?

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## adrianh

> My question to you > Have you any idea why a raven is like a writing desk?


None whatsoever...but I'm sure you'll tell me.

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## Newretailer

> I have a tendency to call a duck a duck.  
> 
> Did I judge the duck? Nope just call it by its name....


Do you honestly think you have the right to prescribe to the whole world how they must feel, what they may say, who they must employ? Sounds like a god complex. See, I just named the duck a duck  :Smile:

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## tec0

> Do you honestly think you have the right to prescribe to the whole world how they must feel, what they may say, who they must employ? Sounds like a god complex. See, I just named the duck a duck


Again I had something typed out and just deleted at the last minute. Standing up for someone is not a god complex not by any definition. But zeroing in on someone weakness with the aim to take their livelihood away now that is a god complex.  :Yes:  

Your play on words may make you look clever and all that... or did it?  :Hmmm:  

I don't know but I do know this... Eventually you and others will have your way and more will suffer. That is not a cool thought at all. I say this because you will move on to the next thing and the next thing and before we know it oppression...

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## tec0

> My question to you > Have you any idea why a raven is like a writing desk?





> None whatsoever...but I'm sure you'll tell me.


No clue but its bugging me...  :Crazy:

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## tec0

Smoking vs. Over-the-counter-drugs vs. Alcohol

And there we go  :Wink:

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## adrianh

I actually think that people who smoke should be castrated because that will stop them from passing the stinky gene on to their children. If the government implieents such a policy then the entire country will be rid of smokers in one generation. An alternative would be for the government to force all cigarette companies to put cyanide inside the cigarettes. That way the smoker will be able to smoke 10 packets in a lifetime and then die an absolutely horrible death.

tec0 - don't you think these are really good ideas to stop the spread of smoking?

I also think that children who are caught smoking should be banned from using their Blackberries for one year, and if they are caught smoking or using their Blackberries in that year their thumbs should be chopped off.

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## tec0

> I actually think that people who smoke should be castrated because that will stop them from passing the stinky gene on to their children. If the government implieents such a policy then the entire country will be rid of smokers in one generation. An alternative would be for the government to force all cigarette companies to put cyanide inside the cigarettes. That way the smoker will be able to smoke 10 packets in a lifetime and then die an absolutely horrible death.
> 
> tec0 - don't you think these are really good ideas to stop the spread of smoking?
> 
> I also think that children who are caught smoking should be banned from using their Blackberries for one year, and if they are caught smoking or using their Blackberries in that year their thumbs should be chopped off.


wow sarcasm... All teenagers will be exposed to Alcohol and tobacco smoke before they finish school. Others will be really unlucky and get introduced to hard core drugs. I am not saying it is right but I am saying we need to protect our youth. 

Really scary stuff is the possible legalization of Cannabis aka weed. If you want to get angry about something start there.   

Me, i am a zero note  my name "tec0" that is where I am at in the world and what I will be. So I guess you win because you get to be a 1 "active and relevant" But with that comes some responsibility. The rest is up to you.

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## adrianh

I think that boom should be legalized because all the Voortrekker were boom-rookers.


Imagine the Voortrekker getting to them mountains and Gerhardus turns to Hermanus and says: "Faaaaak Hermanus, you wanna cross them mountains with ox wagons, stuff the wagons China, let's smoke up and fly over"
- Mel Miller

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## Citizen X

Cigarrette smoking is the least of our concerns with our youth, we have a drug and alcohol abuse problem.

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## AndyD

This certainly is an emotive issue where people tend to have very strong views whatever side of the fence they're on. 

When the new smoking laws came in, because of the logistics, many of the restaurants and cafes were forced to make their outside areas and balconies the smoking areas and the indoor rooms became the non-smoking areas. It used to make me laugh because obviously the non-smokers wanted the best tables in the place but they'd find themselves sitting at the best tables on the balcony or terraces with a beautiful view of the sea but slap bang in the middle of the smoking areas. I had several evenings of fun waiting for someone to moan about the smoke and then spending the rest of my evening chain smoking and deliberately blowing it in their direction. It actually doubled as a social experiment, I discovered the guys who would sit and moan the loudest to their waiter or the floor manager were actually the people who were the least directly confrontational. Out of at least a dozen evenings that I can remember there was only one guy who actually got physical about things, he was somewhat middle aged and obviously wasn't used to not getting his own way, he'd also had the benifit of a few glasses of wine. There was a brief cabaret moment when after some verbal encouragement he eventually took a couple of lumbering swings and got a flat hand across the ear for his troubles. On other occasions there was a couple of guys who stood up and were verbally confrontational but all except that one backed down when it came to crunch time.

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## Dave A

:Rofl: 

Andy, your post should have come with a coffee warning.

Oh yes, today's going to be a great day  :Thumbup:

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AndyD (08-Mar-13)

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## tec0

If anything I would rather not smoke nor drink as I found the lifestyle to be demanding. But truth is tings hardly ever stay with a single subject. Escalation is a constant in human behaviour. First you force smokers out of your company who is next? Females because they are too much of a distraction? And it did happen less than a year ago. Men got upset because woman where doing there jobs... yea...  :Slap:  You can't make this stuff up...  :No:  See some industries are still caveman male dominated...   

So where do you draw the line? The reality is human rights must be protected on the small things. If you dont then normally escalation will follow and more rights would be lost. So if someone needs a smoke to keep her/him going introduce them to the electronic alternative or nicotine patches. Or if you want to accommodate them that is also a solution. 

If you have a none smoker policy in your company then so be it. I cannot tell you what you can or cannot do. But know that toleration goes along way because there are many examples of systems with no toleration and oppression is a constant.

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## adrianh

I have no tolerance for stupidity nor mediocrity. This country is far too tolerant of horse-crap. Less tolerance and more discipline, that is what is needed.

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## Newretailer

Andy, you were lucky it ended there. I had the unfortunate privilege to watch a real blowout over smoking. I used to sell at a market where smoking was not allowed. At 5 o'clock when people packed up, the smokers would lit up where they were and not go outside. There was a man and woman next to each other who apparently didn't like each other. The woman deliberately lit up. First there was a screaming match. Then he went to fetch the fire extinguisher and blasted her with foam all over herself and her stall. All of this with a lot of screaming and shouting between them. It was a truly embarrassing incident.

The rest of us just stood there with mouths hanging open. I am very anti-smoking but wow! not quite that bad. Apparently his wife got astma attacks from her smoking. Both of them were difficult people with constant issues.

As you say, very emotive issue. I am just happy that I have the law on my side  :Wink:

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## AndyD

As you say the law may be on the non-smokers side if there's a smoker plying his trade in stinky and life threatening second hand smoke but the amusing thing about the non-smokers is that they so often feel the need to become the 'police men' as well. The same non-smoker might ignore it when a buddy has a few too many to drink and gets behind the wheel, they'll also throw a blind eye maybe if they see someone ding another car in the mall car park or may happily pocket the 50 bucks if a cashier makes a mistake in their favour or even tell some 'white lies' on their tax returns but the minute there's a poor defenceless smoker shivering in the cold and the rain and standing only 19.5 meters away from a building instead of the 20 meters stipulated in the local bylaws then that's a much more serious matter and certainly one that warrants getting involved with much more hands-on resolve.

Maybe there's lessons that could be learned from this that might give us insight into what makes people this motivated to lead SA in this particular respect yet turn around and cast a blind eye in so many others.

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Chrisjan B (08-Mar-13), Citizen X (08-Mar-13), Dave A (09-Mar-13)

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## Blurock

People are generally selfish. They will be tolerant of everything until it affects them directly. e.g. people will campaign for a bus stop in their street, but when it is placed in front of their house, the bus stop is suddenly not such a good idea.

As an ex smoker (had to give up due to asthma) I can relate to both sides. As a youngster I was hitch hiking once and was given a lift by two gentlemen. They really freaked out when I started smoking in their car. Of course I could not understand it at the time, but we all know how bad a used ashtray can smell.

I am tolerant of smokers as long as they maintain a 3 meter distance and ensure that the smoke blows the other way. It is a dying habit any way... :Whistling:

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AndyD (08-Mar-13)

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## tec0

I sometimes wonder about people's priorities. It is not ok to smoke and people will stone you for doing so as seen on this thread. But where are there big mouths when it comes to more serious things. The big things? 

How many lives did alcohol take last year? How much violence did it cause? Have you ever bothered to count the crosses on the side of the road? Do you even care? 

Nah... This is just another form of persecution... A justifiable oppression nothing more.

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## adrianh

The thread is about smoking at work not about the misuse of alcohol. Just for the record, I don't condone smoking or drinking at work.

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## Newretailer

The most enlightening part of this thread, apart from finding out who smokes and who doesn't, is how freely strange attributes are assigned to non-smokers:

Because you are against smoking, it means that you:
- think you are God
- have a big ego
- think alcohol and drunk driving is ok
- turn blind eyes to someone dinging a car in a car park
- pocket mistakes cashiers make
- lie on your tax return
- don't care about road deaths 
- are monsters
- wear funny clothes
- walk outside naked
_- fill inthe blank with whatever you feel like..._

I cannot quite see how that jump is made. I think you are just stating all the things that smokers are guilty of  :Big Grin:  Or maybe you just don't have valid arguments to defend a filthy habit that is certain to affect your health and those around you and you have to grasp at straws  :Rofl:

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## Justloadit

> I sometimes wonder about people's priorities. It is not ok to smoke and people will stone you for doing so as seen on this thread. But where are there big mouths when it comes to more serious things. The big things? 
> 
> How many lives did alcohol take last year? How much violence did it cause? Have you ever bothered to count the crosses on the side of the road? Do you even care? 
> 
> Nah... This is just another form of persecution... A justifiable oppression nothing more.


I refer to my previous post again with respect to alcohol




> Whilst I do not approve of drinking and driving, it is interesting that we judge alcoholics killing people, but if statistics be done, many many more people die from the effects of smoking than drunken driving.
> 
> How Many People Died from Smoking? yearly in the US over 440,000
> About how many people die each year from drunk driving accidents? yearly in the US about 12,000

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## Dave A

> I cannot quite see how that jump is made. I think you are just stating all the things that smokers are guilty of


I would expect the distribution on those attributes doesn't vary much between smokers and non-smokers.




> Maybe there's lessons that could be learned from this that might give us insight into what makes people this motivated to lead SA in this particular respect yet turn around and cast a blind eye in so many others.


I agree.

I also find the way the issue is being dealt with from a regulation creep point of view an interesting reflection of society. There is little doubt that in today's world, if tobacco products for smoking were not present in society, and was introduced as a *new* product for consumption, it would be banned as a harmful product and removed from retailers' shelves without anyone so much as blinking an eye.

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## Blurock

I find it rather irritating when someone continuously have to leave a group to go and have a puff. On their return they expect to be bought up to date on what they have missed. 

I know it is not easy to give up smoking. Apparently the earlier you start and the longer you have been smoking, the harder it gets. Years ago I had a chain smoking manager (more than 60 per day) who tried everything from acupuncture to hypnosis to pills and stickers. Nothing helped. Sadly he died of lung cancer.

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## adrianh

To me smoking is simply mind over matter. I stopped cold turkey. The biggest problem is that so many actions are linked to having a smoke, I clearly remember getting in the car and patting my top pocket checking to see if I have my cigarettes. The trick was to keep a packet of bubble gum in the same place as the cigarettes. Whenever I needed to smoke I would go through the exact same motions and have bubblegum and sometimes twiddle a pen between my fingers. That eventually broke the chemical addiction. Then I slowly broke the habits like going off for a smoke every hour, having to smoke when I wake up etc. The first three months was very hard. What I found amazing after that was that I could actually taste food and smell properly. Smokers don't realize how much they miss. My chest stopped getting sore and I got chest infections far less often. (There wasn't a winter that I didn't end up in bed with flu - In hospital once or twice as well - but always with my Camel in my mouth)

The most difficlt thing to overcome was smoking while driking, especially beer. It had become one of those things where the tastes had become synonomous. The trick was not to go out with people who smoked and of course not to take cigarests with - chilli biltong is a good substitute. I eventually reached a point where no matter how pissed I was smoking simply wouldn't cross my mind.

We went to a wedding about 3 months ago and we drank so much that I actually drank myself sober (I am sure that there are other people who have experienced this) anyhow, the cigars came out and everybody just had to have a puff, even some of the women did. One guy kept at me, have a puff, have a puff, the more I said no the more he carried on until I just stripped and told him to f_off and stick his cigar up his...The point that I am making through this is that it is mind over matter, nobody will ever talk me into smoking again. 

It is as if a switch has been set in my brain never to be allowed to switch back.
I will never smoke again.

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## Chrisjan B

I am glad as I still struggle after 7 months - the itch or urge drives me up the walls....

adrianh - I have learned the hard way to never say ever: Never say never....

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## adrianh

chrismine - I can say NEVER because I know myself. I stoped taking drugs cold turkey when I was in the middle of STD 8 and that switch was flipped. I never took drugs again and I never will.




> I have learned the hard way to never say ever: Never say never....


This is a very bad statement because you leave a backdoor open when you make a decision. Sometimes the best thing to do is to burn your bridges so that there is no turning back.

You make the decision to stop or you don't make the decision to stop, there is no middle ground.

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## Chrisjan B

You are absolutely correct! 

Sent from my GT-I8190 using Tapatalk 2

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## Blurock

I stopped smoking by cutting out the first one in the morning and the last one at night. I took a decision never to smoke in bed. Not even after sex - it makes your mouth taste like a toilet that has not been cleaned for a week. I don't know how non-smokers can stomach kissing and making love to smokers. (Love is blind - and tasteless?)

I then set my next target: cut out the one just after breakfast, lunch and dinner. Not smoking while drinking was very hard. I set myself a target of not smoking half an hour before or after a meal. Keep it up for a week (for some two weeks may works better) and then increase the no smoking time by another half our each way. 

Don't be despondent if you can not keep to the schedule. If you can not keep to the hour both ways, just repeat the target for the next or a couple of weeks, until you get used to it. Then move on to the next target. By the time you get to two or three hours both ways, you may even go back to a previous level before moving on again. The brain is a wonderful organ as you can programme it. As Adrian said "its all in the mind". Programme your brain to accept a no smoking period. Accept new habits.

To further reduce my nicotine dependency, I also changed to a much milder cigarette. So puffing became blowing smoke rings and not such a nicotine rush. I never used any pills, patches or chemicals to stop smoking. :Cool:

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## tec0

the reality is you trade in one addiction for another. Giving up smoking it takes a bit. But giving up alcohol? Yea right... I know a man that gave up alcohol even after several years he is still afraid to go near a bar because he feels will order himself a drink. There is the reality for you  :Wink:  Label it make fun of it shoot it down it doesn't change the facts.

If you are planning to drop an addiction the golden rule is to drop all forms of addiction not just one or two. because the truth is the one that is left over will become your new primary addiction.

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## ians

I have given up smoking 3 times, first time for 2 years the second time for 7 years and this time 12 years, I smoke a cigar ever 5 years or so and still love the smell of cigarette smoke. My fishing partner smokes and still after 12 years get the urge to light up, thats why my staff are not allowed to smoke near me. The craving never goes away.

I have given up drinking for just over 4 years. I dont drink anymore, because i have a drinking problem. I use to drink captian morgans by the bottle, once that was finished go onto what ever was available and just didnt know when to stop.

If you think giving up smoking is difficult, wait till you start loading on the kilos, and have to slow down the eating.

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## adrianh

> the reality is you trade in one addiction for another. Giving up smoking it takes a bit. But giving up alcohol? Yea right... I know a man that gave up alcohol even after several years he is still afraid to go near a bar because he feels will order himself a drink. There is the reality for you  Label it make fun of it shoot it down it doesn't change the facts.


That man does not have mental self control. You have to be able not to drink in a bar or not to smoke in a smoke filled club.




> If you are planning to drop an addiction the golden rule is to drop all forms of addiction not just one or two. because the truth is the one that is left over will become your new primary addiction.


Rubbish!

I have never heard of having to give up smoking when one gives up snorting Coke, or of giving up gambling when one gives up smoking. 

Your statement has to be clarified: You should give up additions within the same group of addictions simultaneously. Smoking and gamling and shagging prostitutes are all addictions but they are driven by totally different mechanisms. If you said one should stop taking Mandrax when you stop snotrting Coke then I would agree, or if you said one should stop smoking pipe when you stop smoking ciharettes, or if you said you should stop playing online poker when you stop going to the gambling joint I would also agree. 

But making such a blanket statement about addiction is simply ludicrous.

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## ians

I agree with adrian, just because i dont smoke or drink anymore, must i now give up my sex addction...NOT.

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## tec0

> I agree with adrian, just because i dont smoke or drink anymore, must i now give up my sex addction...NOT.


Where did I say anything about sex in this thread? lol talk about demonizing someone  :Slap:  Ok then it is time for sex education  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 

Anyhow it is FACT not fiction that some people with hardcore addictions will use alcohol to the point where it becomes a problem. Some while intoxicated will find their way back to drugs. It is also not uncommon to avoid clubs if you where addicted to alcohol. Some rehab’s recommend it. 

So yea my statement to drop all addictions not just one is based on the fact that some addictions may well be a trigger. It may be BS in your world... 

Sex for the most part if harmless to a degree. If you have one partner that is able and willing that is. But sex addiction is a bad bad addiction to get control over. It opens doors to unwanted pregnancy in some cases rape not to mention STD. Sex is factually a powerful drug it is designed to be because it insures procreation breaking this type of addiction no joke. 

I knew people with this type of problem and the reality is they have access to there drug of choice all the time day and night 24/7 Imagine giving up drugs if you have full access to it all the time? Your fix is basically staring at you all the time in point blank range. 


The reality is there was a man that was addicted to cold water... he enjoyed it so much that he started to drink ice-cold water constantly more then what his body could handle. He ended up destroying his kidneys...

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## AndyD

I don't see why everyone is demonising addictions. Addictions are what drive us and motivate us as a species. Addictions to money make us motivated to make profit, addictions to feelings and emotions drive us to be successful and raise families. I'm an equal opportunities addict, I don't deny any or discriminate against any, I'm happy to allow space for all my addictions.

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tec0 (10-Mar-13)

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## Dave A

> I'm happy to allow space for all my addictions.


 :Hmmm: 

When you get down to it, this thread is actually about allowing space for *other* people's addictions.

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tec0 (10-Mar-13)

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## adrianh

> When you get down to it, this thread is actually about allowing space for *other* people's addictions.


Exactly, what makes smoking more acceptable than other addictions. Would you hire aperson who has to mastrubate every hour or have a teaspoon of vodka every hour or a teaspoon of cough syrup or look at porn every hour. None of the things that I just mentioned have any direct effect on the environment or on co-workers...yet we frown on such behaviour.

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## tec0

I wonder how many dramatic yet useless pots I would have to make to get a point ??? Ag lets skip all that as my back is killing me and I have a ton of studying to do. Right what addiction doesn’t involve the human body and mind? Guess what all addictions needs participation! 

Right boss complain about**:

Farting employees = policy = farting dude looking for new job

Smoking employees = policy = smoking employee looking for new job

Wait a minute! “the boss would eventually say”

Anything that is annoying me = policy = I fire anyone that pi$$e$ me off even remotely. 

There you go the birth of a new Hitler… AKA Boss… 

Toleration doesn’t come to mind because those with power don’t tolerate they make TV shows looking all mean and saying words like “you are fired” or “or you get to go home now” or “I am done with this” with some degree of condescendence and then the camera zooms in at the poor bugger that will probably never work again. 

So in the end it is the bosses world… ever wondered why every second person wants their own business? TA-DA!! The answer!!!!!!!  :Slap:  

The truth is everyone is so sick of everyone else and there BS that there is no cohesion AKA economy goes the way of the dodo. Yea YOU ARE THE BOSS just like everybody else it is actually hilarious if you step back and realise that you have a chessboard full of kings. All of them capable of making the same move. 

 :Rofl: 

So in the end all the kings must be one block away from each other never actually able to go anywhere and they get stuck AKA stalemate and then the realization that a situation in which no progress can be made is a dead one. Last rule a king cannot take another king in chess… Unless it is Deliberately sacrificed…. So you will be forever dancing around each other until you take yourself of the chessboard.  :Stick Out Tongue:   AKA run out of money  :Huh: 

Right people it has been fun but cheers.  :Cool:

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## adrianh

tec0 - May I ask what it is that you smoke exactly?

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## tec0

My drug is called reality and sadly it sucks… Basically it is the same as taking your *knockers* and slamming them between two bricks.  :Yikes:  

Honestly fire everybody and be a king on the chessboard… Like I said once I saw this picture in my mind I couldn’t stop laughing.  A chessboard full of kings representing a wall of zero toleration but in the end there is only one move you can make. 



Even if you started at the bottom row eventually a king will fall a space will open and the wall will crumble...

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## Citizen X

Gentle people :Wink: 
No innuendo intended! I simply find it interesting that Nazi Germany was the very first country to have a campaign against the smoking of cigarettes
Have a look at this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-to...n_Nazi_Germany

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## adrianh

Wow, now that makes for interesting reading.

I think that the popularity of smoking was as a direct result of marketing by large American manufacturers who knew perfectly well the devestating effects.

What I don't get is that people still smoke even though there is an abundance of evidence that it is very harmful. I think that if smoking were to kill after only one packet then nobody would smoke, but because the effects take so long people don't think about it. It's weird to think that people will save for their old age yet they would smoke and mess up the exact quailty of life that they are so desperately saving their money for....yet we think we are God's greatest creation because we are "able to think for ourselves"

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## Citizen X

> Wow, now that makes for interesting reading.
> 
> I think that the popularity of smoking was as a direct result of marketing by large American manufacturers who knew perfectly well the devestating effects.
> 
> What I don't get is that people still smoke even though there is an abundance of evidence that it is very harmful. I think that if smoking were to kill after only one packet then nobody would smoke, but because the effects take so long people don't think about it. It's weird to think that people will save for their old age yet they would smoke and mess up the exact quailty of life that they are so desperately saving their money for....yet we think we are God's greatest creation because we are "able to think for ourselves"


A very good morning to you Adrian,
I’m actually not happy that I currently smoke! I gave up smoking for some 6 years! I’m aware that the literature proves that smoking doesn’t relieve stress but that it only makes it worse, but in my case it does seem to help. I remain committed to stopping as smoking affects my exercise regime which is very important to me.
I suppose that if I were your potential employee, I would just have to approach you with humility i.e. Sir I have a cigarette smoking problem, but I give you my word I will never smoke at work :Wink:

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## adrianh

Oh well, we all have our issues. As long as we are aware of them and work at them then that is all that really matters. My own list of personal issues are a mile long.

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## Nigel Hamilton

this puts it all into perspective



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i7YBaiJMnik

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ians (11-Mar-13)

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## Justloadit

> The anti-tobacco movement did not have much effect in the early years of the Nazi regime and tobacco use increased between 1933 and 1939, but smoking by military personnel declined from 1939 to 1945.


Wow is this not surprising, the fact that most of the army personnel were already dead due to the war effort had nothing to do with the count I suppose

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Chrisjan B (11-Mar-13)

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## Citizen X

> Wow is this not surprising, the fact that most of the army personnel were already dead due to the war effort had nothing to do with the count I suppose


The irony is that the American economy as we know it today was built on the tabacco and cotton industries! The only thing that could get America out of the great depression was legalizing alcohol i.e. nullifying prohibition. So these two sins played a major role economically. As for Hitler, he was against cigarretes but not against his personal doctor, Dr Morel shooting him up with drugs everyday.

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## tec0

Well as I sit here at 11:49 "typing not yet posting" two gunshots where fired.  :Frown:  

So really smoking will kill us?? Ja nee kyk  :No: 

I still think if you are a business owner crying about smoking and no smoking then I would imagine that you don't really care for the product and or service. Because if product and service was a priority then the last thing on your mind would be smoking. I say this because you get good and bad employees that smoke and good and bad employees that are none smokers. So my concern would be "how do I get rid of the bad employees" Not cry about who is smoking! 

So really you can create your policies and force-feed them to your employees. Really in the end of the day it is what it is...

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## Darkangelyaya

*DUDE...!!!* 
I missed all the fun!

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## tec0

> *DUDE...!!!* 
> I missed all the fun!


Nah... You didn't miss much...  :Stick Out Tongue:

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## zobs

I would like to take this opportunity to Thank everyone who has contributed in giving feedback on my post.

Thank You!

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## adrianh

DarkAngelYaya - You did miss all the fun. Ok - watch out for my thread on buying drugs via the net....I'm sure we'll start the fun right up again!

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Darkangelyaya (26-Mar-13)

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## twinscythe12332

@zobs I think smoking at work is fine, as long as the environment permits it. Plenty of the for/against comments above make valid arguments (minus the war that apparently has broken out), so I'd have to say common sense would need to rule. That and an understandable tolerance.

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## elaine25

Morning All

i just wanted to know what I can do as a non-smoker in my workplace.
My fellow workers have been here much longer than myself and they smoke all day non-stop.
I share my office and even in the open plan area they just continue to smoke.
Is their anything I can do anon to get them to stop?
It is a small office and I am worried that by pushing this with the boss I may be alienated!

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## AndyD

I hate inconsiderate smokers especially when there's lots of them together, they're like pack animals. :Devil2:  Maybe just ask them to designate a smoking area and stick to it.

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## tec0

Well the latest thing on our Radio station is people will only employ none drinkers/smoker with own transport have access to bank account have a code 8/10 driver's licence. Must be hard worker must be prepared to work weekends including Sundays. Must be between ages 21 and 25. 

So as far as discrimination goes how many of us is able to apply for that job? The reality is companies are looking for the perfect worker in an imperfect world. Now the scary part is the fact that work is very hard to get. Especially with this “uncertainty” in the mining industry. 

Ever wondered why South Africa is so low on the investment list and places like Botswana is so high on the same list? 

Most people think that “toleration” is beneath them somehow. Lets see how far this goes...

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## Blurock

As an employer it is your right to look for the best candidate for the job. Put yourself in the employers' shoes and see if you will tolerate coming late, extended lunch breaks, extended smoke breaks, unproductivity etc.

We all moan if we do not get what we pay for. The employer also moans when he pays for a job that does not get done. You will too.

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## adrianh

> So as far as discrimination goes how many of us is able to apply for that job? The reality is companies are looking for the perfect worker in an imperfect world. Now the scary part is the fact that work is very hard to get. Especially with this “uncertainty” in the mining industry.


I don't tolerate people who feel sorry for themselves and live off pity. Adapt or DIE; that is the way of the world.

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## tec0

Again I know smokers that do well and there work is second to none. I also know none smokers that is useless on a good day... But I am not here to tell you what you may or may not do. Lets be clear about this. 

Secondly I am so very tired of this do or die attitude? It is always  I this or I that Who are you in the first place? Seriously who are you in someone else's world? Who are you to say anything about anyone? Just because you have  life experiences it doesn't give you the right to judge people. 

How would you feel if you or your children are judged by someone with a corrupt moral compass? Anyone can become a EMO, Goth or a victim of a harsh unforgiving act and they will NEVER be the same again. But they are not allow to feel anything because you say so... 

Yes you are a boss only because people make use of your services. What if someone judge you for something stupid or unimportant and you lose it all? How would you feel? How will it effect your mind your livelihood?

Honestly come back to planet earth and live and let live.  :Yes:

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## KimH

Some perspective:

I have been a smoker since the age of 14 - that's 29 years as a smoker.
Yesterday my doctor confirmed that I am in the early stages of emphysema, do I feel self pity or self-loathing? No!  It's self inflicted plain and simple.  I don't have regrets - the choices we make all have consequences, it's now time for me to face mine.
Quitting an addiction 29 years in the making is no easy feat - challenging times ahead indeed.  But, it's all good - challenges are what I thrive on.

With regards to the OP -  IMHO companies have few enough rights as it is with regards to labour issues - I feel that they have the absolute right to make their own policies with regards to smoking in the work place and the people they employ should respect that right.  Most of my clients do have designated smoking areas for the employees to smoke during tea and lunch breaks only which is a fair compromise I think.

My 2c  :Smile:

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tec0 (04-Apr-13)

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## tec0

And there in we find a truth. The reality is your work will take up about 12 hours of your day. You will be compensated according to contract and you must abide by the employer's policy and work ethic. In total you will work about 84 hours a week with 1 day off per month depending on your agreement. 

Within the hours worked you will be introduced to stresses, demands and expectations that must be met at all times. Depending on work ethic you will face both fair and unfair situations. You have rights but they are secondary in most cases. I think we all have seen our share of unfair dismissals. 

As you work your 336 hours you find that the 24 hours rest you get is just not enough. But you cannot complain nor do anything. Your family structure suffers to the point where you find yourself in situations such as drug abuse, substance abuse and in some cases violence. 

Your employer does not care for such things and will dismiss you if you become there problem. Another simple truth that we had to accept. Yes you can leave your job at any-time but we all know this is not the truth because you will face financial suicide. Thus the reality, your choices as an employee are fictional at best. 

Yet the employer find itself in a higher much more powerful position thus there demands and attitude reaches a point where only perfection will do. Only the perfect drone may have work. To this point there ego demands a higher and higher lifestyle. Now we are at a point in time where less then 2% of the world's population have more wealth and power then the other 98% combined. 

How did this happen? 

The simple answer is “we the 98% let it happen” Thus this conversation will continue to a point where the victor will always be the wealthy. To this end our suicide statistics are higher then ever before. This will continue until a human life is valued again. 

As seen here in this Thread, many employers no longer values anything but there own opinion. So sadly we have a long away to go until they value there fellow human again.

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## adrianh

Ag shame man, it must be hard not to have the the right to stink up my world. If you want to exist in my world then you have to abide by my rules...it's quite simple actually...

The smokers are welcome to do so elsewhere, I don't care, just as long as they don't do it in my world.

Remember the most important motto; "Adapt or die"

So tec0, did you ever do national service, I bet you didn't, you didn't get to demand squat, you didn't get to sulk or whine all the time, you simply got all that nonsense mo3red out of you. You whine, you get a opf@k, you whinge, you get a opf@k, you demand....no you don't dare...

Ag shame man....the world is just so mean....

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## Newretailer

Tec0, seriously, stop complaining, get off you high horse and become a business owner yourself if you think they have such a wonderful life. You do nothing but judge everyone else and being sanctimonious.

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## tec0

If you needed to crawl in the mud while some prick is screaming at you to make you a man then I pity you. If holding a gun in some hell-hole gave you self-worth then I feel very sad for you. 

See I am unarmed, I don't need someone screaming at me. I got enough voices in my head that does exactly that. I have walked alone in the most dangerous places again unarmed. 

So you see yourself as man? You had training you saw “action”... Good for you... Nothing you do or say gives you the right to oppress anyone... For now it is smoking then comes something else and something else will follow that because your ego demands it. 

Rather live and let live Adrian you will be a better man for it.

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## tec0

> Tec0, seriously, stop complaining, get off you high horse and become a business owner yourself if you think they have such a wonderful life. You do nothing but judge everyone else and being sanctimonious.


Yea I would read this whole thing again if I where you... I think you missed a few important bits...

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## AndyD

> Remember the most important motto; "Adapt or die"


Hardly a motto, more like an ultimatum for people that have given up trying to change their circumstances or are no longer in control of the things that have an effect their lives. 




> So tec0, did you ever do national service, I bet you didn't, you didn't get to demand squat, you didn't get to sulk or whine all the time, you simply got all that nonsense mo3red out of you. You whine, you get a opf@k, you whinge, you get a opf@k, you demand....no you don't dare...


You're basically saying national service taught you how to behave like a gimp. Maybe this would be of value in later life but I'm not seeing a relevance to the smoking issue  :Smile:

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tec0 (04-Apr-13)

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## Citizen X

> I don't tolerate people who feel sorry for themselves and live off pity. Adapt or DIE; that is the way of the world.


A very good afternoon to you Adrian :Wink: ,
I understand the sentiment, you know what they say about the fittest! Tragically, this is hardly any consolation to the millions of our fellow South Africans in dire need of a word of hope and encourage despite their circumstances such as poverty, unemployment etc. :Frown: 
That said, the grassroots perspective to you, has got to be this Afrikaans, Kwaito song by ‘Jararumba: Tussen.’
“ Hoekom jy lag my so, hoekom jy kyk my so?”
See no self- pity in that only a rebuttal that makes one stand in awe!!!Look at how the grassroots man is responding by way of this song :Confused: 
You know that series survival? That should actually shoot that in our squatter camps and let us all see our that contestant will fare in the informal settlement for 3 months. These people fight for their very lives, in terms of hunger and the weather on a daily basis. Life is not good for them.
On a more sombre note, what if a very poor man tells you look I have adapted, I was the poor man, now I’m the criminal :Devil: !!! Rather, have a poor man willing to listen to reason with assistance from whomsoever than a case where his heart so hardens from this world that he now choses to be a criminal!!(I’m in no way condoning crime, merely making a point)

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## adrianh

The bottom line is this:

I WILL NOT EMPLOY A SMOKER.

It is my business, my workplace, and my choice...and I don't give a royal continental f*ck whether teccy and you lot b1tch and moan all day long.

There are people in life that b1tch and moan and there are people who deal with life and get on with it. I HAVE NO TOLERANCE FOR THOSE WHO BITCH AND MOAN.

I don't give a crap whether people choose to smoke as long as they do it elsewhere....

Take it, leave it, I don't give a $h1t. Life is hard, you stand up straight and you march on up the mountain or you cower in the corner and cry.

You lot seem to think that you can change my mind about this matter by crying about how mentally weak you are, aye well, I don't actually care, you live your smoke filled life and I live my clean air life, it is your choice to stink in yuor workplace and it is my choice not to stink in my workplace...deal with it.

A famous quote that you guys should keep in mind when ypu preach to me:

Frankly my dear, I don't give a damn.

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## adrianh

I read a wonderful thing somewhere, I'll see if I can find it again. It comes down to this; people teach their children that it is just good enough to take part, that they must just run around and kick the ball and that is ok. People no longer teach their children to excell, to do better than the rest, to reach, to stretch and to get beyond being merely mediocre. We are all supposed to be weak and look after the wellbeing of the weak, lazy and hopeless. That it is ok to be weak lazy and hopeless, to go through life with no ambition, sitting on your butt doing nothing but whinge.

Well F that....

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## Citizen X

> Tec0, seriously, stop complaining, get off you high horse and become a business owner yourself if you think they have such a wonderful life. You do nothing but judge everyone else and being sanctimonious.


A very good afternoon to you Newretailer :Wink: ,
I sincerely don’t think that your allegation of Tec0 being judgmental has merit :Confused: . Here’s the thing, in-order to definitively arrive at the inference that this man is judgmental, one would reasonably be expected to place all his posts over the years under circumspective. Now, I haven’t studied all of Tec0’s posts, but a great many, I don’t find that he’s judgmental at all. On the contrary, I find that he’s a good debater! He will challenge your position and motivate the postion he takes. Nothing wrong with that in good debating, in fact debating can even become heated as long as we don’t cross the obvious lines. Another way would be to assess how many members of TFSA have made such an allegation against this man in posts. From what I see, very few!
I think that it’s just a matter of difference of opinion and challenging an opinion put forward.

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## Citizen X

> I read a wonderful thing somewhere, I'll see if I can find it again. It comes down to this; people teach their children that it is just good enough to take part, that they must just run around and kick the ball and that is ok. People no longer teach their children to excell, to do better than the rest, to reach, to stretch and to get beyond being merely mediocre. We are all supposed to be weak and look after the wellbeing of the weak, lazy and hopeless. That it is ok to be weak lazy and hopeless, to go through life with no ambition, sitting on your butt doing nothing but whinge.
> 
> Well F that....


What you state here does have merit! Fair point!

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## Newretailer

Maybe not in other threads. As far as this thread goes, I have not seen anyone else accusing so many other people of being judgmental, when the judgments keep on coming from that source. A good argument is when you put forward pros and cons and being able to substantiate your viewpoint, not when you make jumps from JHB to Cairo via Mauritius, which is frankly how absurd the jumps is being made from the simple statement: I do not like smoking and I will not employ a smoker.

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Dave A (06-Apr-13)

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## Citizen X

> Hardly a motto, more like an ultimatum for people that have given up trying to change their circumstances or are no longer in control of the things that have an effect their lives. 
> 
> 
> You're basically saying national service taught you how to behave like a gimp. Maybe this would be of value in later life but I'm not seeing a relevance to the smoking issue


A very good afternoon to you Andy :Wink: 
Ironic you should rebut the assertion in this way! Look at what Marley say’s in his song ‘Could you be loved!”
“They say: only - only -only the fittest of the fittest shall survive -Stay alive! Eh?
(The road of life is rocky and you may stumble too, So while you point your fingers someone else is judging you) *Love your brotherman!
*(You ain't gonna miss your water, until your well runs dry;
No matter how you treat him, he’ll never be satisfied.)”

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## Blurock

> How did this happen? 
> 
> The simple answer is we the 98% let it happen Thus this conversation will continue to a point where the victor will always be the wealthy. To this end our suicide statistics are higher then ever before. This will continue until a human life is valued again. 
> 
> As seen here in this Thread, many employers no longer values anything but there own opinion. So sadly we have a long away to go until they value there fellow human again.


I do not agree. You are linking your smoking issues with your frustration with the boss. Those are separate issues. Also, Marikana is a good example where the victor was the uncontrolled mob. In spite of the destruction and the murders committed by them, they were rewarded with an increase and several other benefits. 

Yes, I agree that the whole situation arose from poor leadership all over, but both sides had blame and both sides had blood on their hands.

I do not agree that the army instilled discipline. I for one was not prepared to let some stupid corporal shout and swear at me and tell me that I am lower than snake shit. I was lucky to rather play in the band, or else I would have spent army time in the DB.

It was rather the way we were brought up. Discipline at home, discipline at school, discipline in the community. If you did something wrong, you took your punishment and apologised and tried to make things right. You tried to be the best you could be, regardless of circumstances. There is only one way to do things, the right way.

As adrianh said, we have become accustomed to being average. Do not shout at the poor soul because (s)he will get a nervous breakdown. I'm sorry, mediocre will not do. If you want to get any where in life, you have to roll up your sleeves and be the best that you can be. Only the best is good enough. :Yes:

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## tec0

I am not here to change your mind but I will oppose you Adrian. I don't care if you scream hate or use condescension. I offered optional solutions you didn't note it. See in your world you are not obligated too. But that is just the thing right there. It is not your world... nor is it mine. We share it with companies that pump harmful stuff into the air each and every day. Did you ever notice that toxic smell when stuck in traffic for two hours? How is that effecting your health? Carbon monoxide is also a poison. Can we avoid at all? Some yes but we cannot avoid all of it all of the time. It is simply impossible. 

Now you have the right not to higher smokers. But that doesn't mean I or anyone else have to like it. Every action have a reaction. 

Secondly I know of a man, he sleeps at a abandoned building, he is basically "distant" from the rest of the world. He doesn't register at all. Some said he has an addiction others claim he was born that way. It turns out he used to be a very successful man at one stage in his life. One morning he phoned his parents they didn't answer. When he entered there home he found them brutally murdered. Something in him died that day. I can only hope that he will find himself again but to this day he is lost to the world. Or perhaps it is a question of perspective. 

So ease off on the weak bit and the lazy bit. The reality is you simply don't know what someone else is feeling thinking or what they experienced.

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Citizen X (05-Apr-13)

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## adrianh

It is not a question of judging anybody. They lead their lives as they choose and I lead mine as I choose. I choose to do certain things and I choose not to do certain things. I choose not to have other people do certain things within a domain which I control, which is my right. I don't ask anybody to like it, not to like it, I don't care how anybody else feels about it for that matter...but....I don't cry about the injustice of it all all the time.

What I said about the army was this: you did not get to bitch and moan and whinge and whine all the time, you had to suck it up and do what you had to do. This was aimed directly at tec0 for his continual whinging and whining about how the world is unfair to him and all the other waeklings. The idea was to simply to say that I had to learn to suck it up and get on with it even if i didn't like it. The army was k@k but even so, it did do me the world of good in the long run.

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## tec0

> As adrianh said, we have become accustomed to being average. Do not shout at the poor soul because (s)he will get a nervous breakdown. I'm sorry, mediocre will not do. If you want to get any where in life, you have to roll up your sleeves and be the best that you can be. Only the best is good enough.


Are you really that successful? Yes you may have wealth but it is not true power now is it. If you bring things into perspective you will find that your success is just that "mediocre" If you where special you would have a country with your name on it, able to manipulate your DNA so that you can live forever and make gold out of dust. The truth is perfection breeds weakness and for every million you made someone else made a million times that. So depending on the scale of success where are you really. When placed against a poor person you are successful yes but when placed next to the supper wealthy supper powerful? Then you are not even on the scale.

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## tec0

> This was aimed directly at tec0 for his continual whinging and whining about how the world is unfair to him and all the other waeklings.


Are you calling me weak Adrian? Care to share that with the class? After all you know me so well you can make this type of statement. So please continue...

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## adrianh

teccy, you need to learn that people have the right to their opinions, I don't have to eazy off on nothing, my words are my own and they belong to me, you can choose to hear them or you can choose to ignore them, but you do not get to silence them....

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## Citizen X

> Maybe not in other threads. As far as this thread goes, I have not seen anyone else accusing so many other people of being judgmental, when the judgments keep on coming from that source. A good argument is when you put forward pros and cons and being able to substantiate your viewpoint, not when you make jumps from JHB to Cairo via Mauritius, which is frankly how absurd the jumps is being made from the simple statement: I do not like smoking and I will not employ a smoker.


I respect your position! In my opinion Tec0 stated his case rather quite well in this particular thread, considering that he is a non smoker.Though he addressed other issues, the way I see it, he done so to strenghten his primary position as well as simultaneoulsy deal with whatever other members challenged him with.

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tec0 (05-Apr-13)

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## Citizen X

My final opinion:

1. As a smoker the law is clearly against me as smoking of cigarettes is heavily regulated; I can’t and don’t ignore the rights of non-smokers;
2. In my opinion it could be to the detriment of a business owner not to recruit a potential employee simply because he smokes without looking at what he can actually bring to your business in terms of productively, loyalty, honesty, trustworthiness etc. The non-smoker you hired may just be an alcoholic who stays absent from work every Monday or equally worse steals from you or is unreliable when you really need this person.
3. *Very good debate*, I think that you guys all raise fair points, *It was Elaine’s* post that made me think about my habit, here’s this lady who is forced to contend with many smokers in the workplace because her boss also smokes; So if I was now one of her co-workers, after this debate I would recognize her rights to a smoke free environment as well and refrain from smoking there out of respect for her;
4. Elaine’s situation cast’s an unexpected dilemma: What if the Boss or CEO is a smoker who discriminates against non-smokers because he and most of his management team want to smoke(But he doesn’t show this directly)

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tec0 (05-Apr-13)

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## tec0

> teccy, you need to learn that people have the right to their opinions, I don't have to eazy off on nothing, my words are my own and they belong to me, you can choose to hear them or you can choose to ignore them, but you do not get to silence them....


 Hi  :Wave:  .... had your reply or your words typed out yesterday. Surprisingly 85% there... If only the lotto was this easy... And  :No:  I cannot see into the future but I am very good at profiling people and thus able to figure out what they will say and do next. 

So I will cut this short. The reality is you want to oppress and all the words and debate in the world will not change the nature of your intent. Now why that is, is open to speculation but I will not go in to that right now. 

People will read they will take sides they will offer suggestions and so on. Clearly however you have a low opinion of smokers. This will also be noted by them. Some will be people looking for work others may well be customers. But what you send out into the world has the tendency to amplify and come back. Now this can be a good thing or it can be a bad thing. Time will tell... 

See I did the same for one of my neighbour. I told him what will actively happen to him, his property and so on for the next month that was 1 month ago now. I was spot on, on every aspect. So I hope that how you are here on the forum isn't how you behave in the real world. I say this because a personality is the same as a mathematical formula. It flows it generate numbers and it calculate actions. It is exactly the same thing. 

Being "subhuman" I had to learn how to survive in your world. Like you said we have to adapt and learn. I did just that and I became scary good at figuring out what will happen next. I even foresaw my own downfall. I was out with maybe 12 days. Not bad for a 4 year prediction. 

I have written some stuff down and lets see  :Wink: 

enjoy sir...  :Flowers:

----------


## Blurock

> Are you really that successful? Yes you may have wealth but it is not true power now is it. If you bring things into perspective you will find that your success is just that "mediocre" If you where special you would have a country with your name on it, able to manipulate your DNA so that you can live forever and make gold out of dust. The truth is perfection breeds weakness and for every million you made someone else made a million times that. So depending on the scale of success where are you really. When placed against a poor person you are successful yes but when placed next to the supper wealthy supper powerful? Then you are not even on the scale.


I am not rich, I may not be successful in other people's eyes, but I am free. I am free to do what I want, to associate with whomever I want, to eat what I want, to go where I want to. 

My status is not determined by the brands I wear or the car that I drive. I do not need to hoard things to be happy. I do not need to own anything. I would rather experience things and see the world. 

I have seen many poor people who are rich. Not because of what they have, but because of who they are. Wealth and money can be taken away from you overnight, but spiritual wealth is a treasure that nobody can take away from you.

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## Blurock

> Elaines situation casts an unexpected dilemma: What if the Boss or CEO is a smoker who discriminates against non-smokers because he and most of his management team want to smoke(But he doesnt show this directly) [/COLOR][/SIZE]


Very good point. One has to always consider the other side's view as well. We cannot all be right, but we can learn to deal with it. Just maybe the other guy is right. That is why I can only shake my head when people have to prove a point, no matter what.

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## tec0

> I am not rich, I may not be successful in other people's eyes, but I am free. I am free to do what I want, to associate with whomever I want, to eat what I want, to go where I want to. 
> 
> My status is not determined by the brands I wear or the car that I drive. I do not need to hoard things to be happy. I do not need to own anything. I would rather experience things and see the world. 
> 
> I have seen many poor people who are rich. Not because of what they have, but because of who they are. Wealth and money can be taken away from you overnight, but spiritual wealth is a treasure that nobody can take away from you.


Now this I can support  :Thumbup:

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## adrianh

A cannibal with a full belly could also feel spiritually wealthy....

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## Blurock

> A cannibal with a full belly could also feel spiritually wealthy....


Maybe just fully fed and content. But he does not need a Gucci suit to give him status. Only a bone through the nose. :Smile:

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## tec0

In reality smokers/non-smokers will find that there livelihood is affected by the various chemicals and pollutants that can be found in just about everything actually. From the air you breath to the water you drink. Everything is effected by some degree. 

The reality every single labour law we have today has a very interesting history. The truth is, some companies got away with murder in the old days. A life had no worth when it came to the demand for progress. 

Today we get to say no when the job is to dangerous. In the old days the word “no” was meaningless. Now if your children had to work for a company with poor work ethic and low value of human life. You yourself would not be very happy about it and or do something about it. 

So really it is not about smoking or non-smokers. It is about principal... If you want to deny people work and have strict company policy so be it. But bigger companies can adopt even stricter policies that may exclude you as a suppler and or contractor. The thing is it started with you... 

So in the end if you open the door for something then be sure others will adopt it and amply it. It is just the way of the world.

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## adrianh

> Today we get to say no when the job is to dangerous.


Exactly, and we get to say no to employing those who pose a risk to the health of their coworkers.

You see, now we are on equal terms, just as you have a choice not to work for me so do I have a choice not to employ you!

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## tec0

> Exactly, and we get to say no to employing those who pose a risk to the health of their coworkers.
> 
> You see, now we are on equal terms, just as you have a choice not to work for me so do I have a choice not to employ you!


Nope...  :No:  See I would look at what I can do to make the job safe. It is kind of my job to do just that actually. Your Attitude that you yourself reflected here is "I am the boss I get to urinate on everyone and everyone must do as I say." Look at your own posts both on this thread and others. Sad part is sometimes I actually agreed with you. Everyone makes mistakes I suppose. 

You could have made a choice and say lets look at "electronic smokes" or other types of mitigation "The action of lessening in severity or intensity" But you opted for hostility instead. That was your choice. Now it is your right to do so this is true. But taking someone's livelihood... That is just sick on all levels.

also the stuff that I said I will write down, have a look: now we are on the same page... you have the choice to smoke I have the choice not to employ you.

Again not word for word but hay it is close enough  :Wink:  This was written down on a piece of paper... 

Now because I am reading you like old comic book I am going to call it a day... 

See you in the funny papers.

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## Dave S

It's amazing how easily we humans are manipulated, someone desides that smoking is bad for you, and suddenly the whole world goes crazy trying to ban the stuff. To make my point, google the debate on "Dihydrogen Monoxide Banning" and have a look at how easy it is to actaully ban Water! Here are a few facts about pollution that you are never told about, particularly "Diesel Dust"

When the first seasonal rains hit us, have you noticed how black your white motor car becomes? That black dirt that lies on your car is caused by "diesel dust". This is particles of dust that have adhered to molecules of moisture in the atmosphere, highly carcinogenic, and acidic, yet we don't hear many complaining about the negative effects of it, maybe we should ask some asthma sufferers, they will be very aware of it? Due to this "dust" being acidic and and a petroleum based mineral, it does not biodegrade and it adheres to the mucus membranes in our sinuses and lungs, the same way it adheres to moisture in the atmosphere, but our bodies are wonderful creations and our immune system deals with the problem, for most of us at least, but not for asthma sufferers! If we want to clean up our air, we need to look at other methods, smokers contribute less than 2% to this environmental problem...   

A small 1700cc diesel engine produces more pollution, just by starting the engine than 1000 smokers puffing away for an hour, but yet we have no legistlation in place to stop the usage of diesel vehicles? Neither are we likely to see this, our economy would shut down if all delivery vehicles were suddenly removed from our roads. So, obviously, the drive to ban smoking is fueled by economy, or more simply, GREED! At least, that is my opinion.

Anti-smoking is just as discriminatory as the Black/White debacle and should not be allowed to flourish.

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## Blurock

Dave S you are correct about the "diesel dust". As an asthma sufferer, I became acutely aware of it since moving to Durban. Because of the high humidity, the particles do not fall and settle on the ground as in drier areas, but attaches to the moisture and stays suspended in the air. For a better life I should move to the Karoo, which I love, but I then I'll die from the cold! The winters in Durban are unbeatable, so I'll just use my medication.

As far as smoking goes, I fail to understand where the greed comes in, as nobody is benefitting financially from the smoking ban. As an ex smoker I can just say that maybe smokers brought the smoking ban onto themselves for being inconsiderate and belittling non-smokers... :Yes:

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## Dave S

The way I see it, governments the world over, have found that by victimising smokers there is easy money to be made, that is, additional taxes or "Sin" tax as we more commonly know it. The tabbaco companies don't complain as they just increase their prices and this supplements their turnover and takes care of the extra levies applied to them. As smoking is both an addiction and a habit, it is unlikely that many people will quit, some will, but the minority. To get public support for the scheme is easy, people are gullible and are likely to beleive whatever they are told when it comes to saving their health or environment, so you just need to create a worldwide scare as to the dangers of smoking, and voila! you can now victimise smokers without having a major outcry from the general public as they have now been brainwashed into thinking that your intentions are for their benefit. 

However, if you were to try tackling the real dangers like diesel dust you would have a far greater task on your hands, most people are not going to follow you when the actual cost is going to hit their pockets, so you see, the actual attack on smokers is in fact driven by nothing more than greed. There are a lot of things out there that are far more dangerous than 2nd-hand smoke, but it would cost too much to tackle these issues, so rather, hit the soft targets that are easy and everyone will perseve that you are doing some good for the general population.

As far as being inconsiderate or belittling to non-smokers?? I don't get your drift here, but then maybe it's because I have always considered those around me when I smoke and I have always had a strong consideration especially for children. For instance, if I wish to smoke and there are adult non-smokers around, I will first ask the non-smokers if they would mind me lighting up, if there are children present, I just simply won't smoke. I fail to see how this targets me as a criminal? Now with new legistlation, all the smokers are forced to congregate in small areas, where the smoke becomes so dense that when you walk past, you and your children are now forced to breathe these toxic fumes, but instead of attacking the people that have caused this problem (Gov.), you attack the smoker, why? because it is easier for us to attack a soft target rather than the real issue.

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## Dave S

Adrian, let's just say, I'm so glad I will never work in your company...

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## adrianh

Dave - you would just love the clean air.

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## Dave S

> Dave - you would just love the clean air.


Naah, the air would still be full of unseen diesel smoke...

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## adrianh

Diesel smoke or no diesel smoke, smoking gives you lung cancer and you stand a good chance of dying a horrible death. I stopped smoking while I was living in JHB and again, diesel smoke or no diesel smoke I still feel 100000x better physically from having stopped. You will never ever convince me to condone smoking in any form or for any reason. I spent too much time with lung infections, bronchitis etc myself and I spent a number of weeks with my mother in law on her deathbed dying of lung cancer to be swayed in my views.

Smoking is bad for you and it is bad for the people around the smoker. Just as I do not expose my workers on purpose to petrol fumes I don't expose them to cigarette smoke. If I hire a smoker then I am endangering the lives of myself and other employees by exposing us to cigarette smoke which is known to be the no 1 cause of lung cancer. I am not willing to sacrifice the wellbeing of the many for the vices of the few!

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## Dave S

I Know when I'm beat, it's just such a pity that most people assume that lung cancer (and other ailments) are caused by smoking, because they have been told so, and I know that smoking is bad for me, not because someone told me so, but because I feel it's effects. Lung cancer may be more predominant in smokers, but I can assure you, it is not the cause of cancer. I truly admire those that have stopped smoking, they have shown the willpower that I do not have, and I respect your choices not to smoke, please allow me the same courtesy.

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## adrianh

> it's just such a pity that most people assume that lung cancer (and other ailments) are caused by smoking, because they have been told so
> 
> Lung cancer may be more predominant in smokers, but I can assure you, it is not the cause of cancer.


hmmm...interesting theories, somewhat akin to beetroot cures AIDS....




> I respect your choices not to smoke, please allow me the same courtesy.


You are free to do as you please but I will not employ you because your vice will pose a health risk to my staff. None of my employees smoke so adding a smoker would infringe on their rights to have clean air in the workplace.

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## vieome

> hmmm...interesting theories, somewhat akin to beetroot cures AIDS....
> 
> 
> 
> You are free to do as you please but I will not employ you because your vice will pose a health risk to my staff. None of my employees smoke so adding a smoker would infringe on their rights to have clean air in the workplace.


I never knew that arguing(discussing) about smoking could be like argueing about religion. I agree 100 with you adrianh, it is your right to hire who ever feel it fit for the position you offer. But I wanted to ask what happens when someone working for you, decides to give up their freedom to become a nicotine addict. Do you fire them?

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## adrianh

No I wont fire them. If they keep their habit out of the workplace then they can do as they please.

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## Blurock

> I Know when I'm beat, it's just such a pity that most people assume that lung cancer (and other ailments) are caused by smoking, because they have been told so, and I know that smoking is bad for me, not because someone told me so, but because I feel it's effects. Lung cancer may be more predominant in smokers, but I can assure you, it is not the cause of cancer. I truly admire those that have stopped smoking, they have shown the willpower that I do not have, and I respect your choices not to smoke, please allow me the same courtesy.


Dave, I have lost enough friends through lung cancer caused by heavy smoking, to know what the effects of smoking is. You can keep on ignoring the facts and bury your head in the sand. As you have said; you can feel the effects of smoking. So don't pretend that it is healthy, not even to calm the nerves.

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## zobs

Smoking at work, its all about having controlls in place.

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## Dave S

I'm going to wrap up my opinions on this subject, Adrian, I'm only yanking your chain, I admire that you are considerate of your workforce breathing safe air and I strongly believe that you must adamantly defend your decision in this regard, can I apply for a job once i've quit? lol.

Bluerock, I too have had three friends die from lung related deseases (emphasemia, and cancer), and as I have already said, I know smoking is bad for me and those that breathe my 2nd hand smoke and for this reason only, I'm going to give another shot to quiting. The point I am making, is that there is such a hype created over smoking that nobody is actually thinking with a free mind anymore, we are all following the hype rather than asking the questions that will determine our future decisions. Can science prove beyond a doubt that smoking causes cancer, or are they just assuming based on the facts of the toxins present in a cigarette?

To make a point, the hype about speeding, we all know that speed kills, but does it actually cause the accident?

I'm really serious, I'm definetely going to try (again) to quit.

It's great to be able to debate, even on sensetive topics...

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## adrianh

The point is that one has to start dealing with issues somewhere. The best way to dealwith smoking is to make it as uncomfortable as possible for people to smoke.





> To make a point, the hype about speeding, we all know that speed kills, but does it actually cause the accident?


I think that speeding does cause the accident in a lot of cases. Stopping distances are lengthened, tendency to skid & roll is increased, people travelling along roads marked at certain speeds expect cars to be travelling at those speeds and hence calibrate their reaction times accordingly. You must always remember that although you may be a brilliant driver and like to drive fast the other guy might be doing 60 in a k@k mood with a splitting headache. He might not be able to react fast enough to you cutting him off at 120. Don't get me wrong, I speed all the time and I am guilty of driving like an ahole myself because I tend to get very aggressive, but be that as it may, there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that speed kills. Spend some time on Youtube and look at car crashes, I've looked at 100's. It becomes abundantly clear that speeding causes many many accidents. That old lady in her Ford Fiesta doing 100 on the highway simply does not expect some person to cut in front of her at 140 and hit the brakes when they realize it is their offramp.

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## Dave S

> The point is that one has to start dealing with issues somewhere. The best way to dealwith smoking is to make it as uncomfortable as possible for people to smoke..


That's the whole point, but on what is it based, your actual questions and research, or is it just the thing to do to be in accordance with the hype?







> I think that speeding does cause the accident in a lot of cases. Stopping distances are lengthened, tendency to skid & roll is increased, people travelling along roads marked at certain speeds expect cars to be travelling at those speeds and hence calibrate their reaction times accordingly. You must always remember that although you may be a brilliant driver and like to drive fast the other guy might be doing 60 in a k@k mood with a splitting headache. He might not be able to react fast enough to you cutting him off at 120. Don't get me wrong, I speed all the time and I am guilty of driving like an ahole myself because I tend to get very aggressive, but be that as it may, there is absolutely no doubt in my mind that speed kills. Spend some time on Youtube and look at car crashes, I've looked at 100's. It becomes abundantly clear that speeding causes many many accidents. That old lady in her Ford Fiesta doing 100 on the highway simply does not expect some person to cut in front of her at 140 and hit the brakes when they realize it is their offramp.


This is another of those topics that can go for ages, and maybe it should be in a different thread? But just to be clear, there is speeding (70 in 60 zone) and then there is SPEEDING (140 in a 60 zone), anyone doing 140 in a 60 zone is going to CAUSE an accident, but if someone fails to stop at a stop street and is hit by the guy doing 70? Both have broken the law, but what was the cause?

Sorry to do this, but I was born with a mind that has to ask questions, I do not accept things "as they are" just because "that's the way they are", I want to know why they are that way?

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## adrianh

> Sorry to do this, but I was born with a mind that has to ask questions, I do not accept things "as they are" just because "that's the way they are", I want to know why they are that way?


We all have to accept some things at some time given that we cannot do all the research ourselves. I don't accept stuff for the sake of hype. I make my own mind up based on the information that I have regarding a subject. Maybe it will be proved one day that lung cancer is caused by fairy dust, I don't know, but for the time being I am happy to accept that smoking is a health risk. 

The problem with speeding is that the law has to draw a line, the law can't say it is ok to do 70 in a 60k zone because then everybody would be doing 70. Many rules are made to cater for the man in the street, remember that the man in the street is not only me and you but it is also the 70 year old lady who doesn't see too well and wlaks across the road at a snails pace and also the 9 year old kid who runs across the road chasing a ball.

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## Dave S

> We all have to accept some things at some time given that we cannot do all the research ourselves. I don't accept stuff for the sake of hype. I make my own mind up based on the information that I have regarding a subject. Maybe it will be proved one day that lung cancer is caused by fairy dust, I don't know, but for the time being I am happy to accept that smoking is a health risk. 
> 
> The problem with speeding is that the law has to draw a line, the law can't say it is ok to do 70 in a 60k zone because then everybody would be doing 70. Many rules are made to cater for the man in the street, remember that the man in the street is not only me and you but it is also the 70 year old lady who doesn't see too well and wlaks across the road at a snails pace and also the 9 year old kid who runs across the road chasing a ball.


And you are 100% correct, on both counts, we can only make decisions based on the evidence presented before us, be it conjectural evidence, circumstancial evidence, or actual fact. BTW, you might enjoy the thread I have just started (Life Exsists)... It's a fun and analytical breather.

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## Phil Cooper

I think one can safely say science has proved smoking causes cancer.

If one says (my numbers) that 1 in 10,000 non-smokers get lung cancer, and 50 in 10,000 smokers get lung cancer, and these figures repeat themselves - all else being equal - I think that is self explanatory...

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## pmbguy

SMOKING
Excluding any personal feelings, ethical or health concerns.

Smoking at the workplace may

1.*Decrease productivity*, time wasted smoking and not working.

2.*Decrease moral*, other non smokers may feel it is unfair for co workers to be able to take a break for a smoke while they have to work. Also, some employees might be unhappy with being exposed to smoke (If smoking in the same area).

3.*Negative effect on client perceptions*. Employees standing around on a smoke break may harm perception. A salesman that reeks of smoke could be off putting to some clients.

Please dont take it personally guys. This is simply a technical exercise as to the effects of smoking in the workplace.  I am a smoker myself but I believe the above to be true in different measures depending on the specific business.

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Citizen X (09-Apr-13)

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## Darkangelyaya

> Dave, I have lost enough friends through lung cancer caused by heavy smoking, to know what the effects of smoking is. You can keep on ignoring the facts and bury your head in the sand. As you have said; you can feel the effects of smoking. So don't pretend that it is healthy, not even to calm the nerves.


Blurock, I respect your view, but there is NO evidence that smoking is directly linked to lung cancer. It has never been proven without a shadow of a doubt.
BUT... smoking in effect depletes the oxygen levels in your blood, and is one of the three causes of cancer. As a cancer survivor, I have done my homework on this.
So, there is a link between smoking and (lung) cancer, but it is not as direct as it is made out to be.
It will always be a sensitive issue, and I am sorry for the loss of friends that you've experienced.
No, I am not a smoker, but my partner is.

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## adrianh

So what about all that black gunk that covers the insides of your lungs and bronchi?

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## tec0

> So what about all that black gunk that covers the insides of your lungs and bronchi?


I am wondering Adrian... What “IF” someone in your family becomes a smoker? 

Will you abandon them? 
Make them eat dirt? 
Not give them jobs? 
Not tolerate them? 
Hate them? 
Destroy there  livelihoods? 
NOT RESPECT THEM? 

See I may not have your insight wealth and or POWER... But I know people... and people are people they will do what people do... Humans are random... but they are also conditioned... thus you get a "conditioned response"...

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## Blurock

> Blurock, I respect your view, but there is NO evidence that smoking is directly linked to lung cancer. It has never been proven without a shadow of a doubt.


You are contradicting yourself. 


> smoking in effect depletes the oxygen levels in your blood, and is one of the three causes of cancer. As a cancer survivor, I have done my homework on this.
> So, there is a link between smoking and (lung) cancer, but it is not as direct as it is made out to be.


I have no doubt that the colleagues and friends that died from lung cancer could have been saved, had they stopped smoking earlier. Some smoked until the end, but admitted to smoking being the cause of their condition.

I have seen the lungs of cancer patients and it looks horrible. Just imagine pouring litres of black tar into your lungs! I wish that someone could set up a display with such damaged lungs in glass jars so that everyone could see for themselves.

Funny that some people seem to be immune, but people who smoke are also more susceptible to colds and flu and often develop hay fever and other ailments. Like an old car, the one problem leads to another and you may even end up having a reduced lung function like I have.

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## AndyD

Wow, this is just the thread that keeps on giving. I haven't been around all day and there's another page and a half of posts.





> I am wondering Adrian... What “IF” someone in your family becomes a smoker? 
> 
> Will you abandon them? 
> Make them eat dirt? 
> Not give them jobs? 
> Not tolerate them? 
> Hate them? 
> Destroy there  livelihoods? 
> NOT RESPECT THEM? 
> ...


If this is a multiple choice question I'd have to go with answer 'B'...make them eat dirt. Saying that, answer 'E' is tempting....and answer 'A'. Geez, decisions decisions  :Wink:

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## tec0

> Wow, this is just the thread that keeps on giving. I haven't been around all day and there's another page and a half of posts.


lol Lets just say I had a very bad day. Some idiot decided that generated that piece crap test paper basically put me 3 months back on my plans as I am going to have to do it again!!!! See this person thinks that playing with our lives is FUN. Much like some people here...  :Whistling: 

Since the bastard that created the test is well hidden from public I get to pick on the none smokers :because I can smily face here:

Where is Hitle... Adrian today anyway

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## Dave S

> I think one can safely say science has proved smoking causes cancer.
> 
> If one says (my numbers) that 1 in 10,000 non-smokers get lung cancer, and 50 in 10,000 smokers get lung cancer, and these figures repeat themselves - all else being equal - I think that is self explanatory...


No, the way I see it this does not PROVE that cancer is caused by smoking, if even  1 in a Billion gets cancer without ever having smoked, then clearly the cancer was not CAUSED by smoking, but if 50 in 100 smokers were to get cancer, this again proves only that smoking is an aggravated circumstance but still not the CAUSE. In other words, smokers will be more at risk, but the cause of the cancer is something else, surely?

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## adrianh

Hey tec0 - you must say: Sieg Heil

If a family member started smoking I would feed them cigarette butts for breakfast, lunch and supper until they stopped.

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## tec0

> Hey tec0 - you must say: Sieg Heil
> 
> If a family member started smoking I would feed them cigarette butts for breakfast, lunch and supper until they stopped.


Actually my dad tried that :blank stare smily face here: but sorry to say it doesn't work. It also didn't work on you because you are an x-smoker.

That said I wonder why I stopped smoking as I secretly long for death anyway. Imagine selling a "suicide button" that actually works then I and everyone else like me would be gone and the world would be a really boring place now wouldn't it. 

No more unsuccessful people to boss around. No more cheap-labour... Need I continue??? 

The good news is "they" are slowly but surly legalizing "the grass  :Wink: " So in the not so far future you will have to deal with grass smoking employees with almost no higher brain function... 

I hope I get to see that job interview...  :Stick Out Tongue:

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## vieome

> That said I wonder why I stopped smoking as I secretly long for death anyway. Imagine selling a "suicide button" that actually works then I and everyone else like me would be gone and the world would be a really boring place now wouldn't it.


Congrates on managing to give up on the addiction and the habit of smoking(will power you have), but I really think you should do yourself a favour, and give up on the habit of having such thoughts as above. Your thoughts shape your world, and if your are letting your outside reality determine your thoughts, it is time to try something new. Choose your thoughts, dont have thoughts based on what you see in the world, or what you might have been conditioned to think the world is. You already thinking c@#p thoughts about life, just try thinking different thoughts about life and see what happens to your world, what do you have to lose.

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adrianh (10-Apr-13), Blurock (10-Apr-13), Dave A (10-Apr-13), Mike C (10-Apr-13)

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## Dave S

NEW INFORMATION: Smoking causes pregnancy in teenage females.

A study of 400 participants revealed, amongst other things, that 96% of the participants were smokers, and only 4% were not, surely this proves beyond a doubt that smoking causes pregnancy in teenagers? I'm gonna carry on looking around for these little tidbits of information...

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## adrianh

We can't change the way the world looks but we can change the way you see it.
bausch and lomb (The company that makes contact lenses)

...we choose what we see....
...a lion murdering a buck or a mother feeding her young!

...we see with our thoughts....

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## adrianh

@DaveS - ah, cause, effect and the misuse of statistics.

I took a sample of a boy at age 1 and he has not died. Then I took millions of samples of the person over the course of 50 years and he has not died. Given that I have never sampled him being dead it proves that he is immortal.......

hmmm....

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## Dave S

Yeah, I know it's a misuse of stats, but it is fun to see just how much is blamed on smoking, even though the intelligence tells us otherwise.

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## tec0

> Congrates on managing to give up on the addiction and the habit of smoking(will power you have), but I really think you should do yourself a favour, and give up on the habit of having such thoughts as above. Your thoughts shape your world, and if your are letting your outside reality determine your thoughts, it is time to try something new. Choose your thoughts, dont have thoughts based on what you see in the world, or what you might have been conditioned to think the world is. You already thinking c@#p thoughts about life, just try thinking different thoughts about life and see what happens to your world, what do you have to lose.


Sadly one cannot run from the outside world. Harvesting farts will never replace petrol and life will always be a lost cause... I say this because it is the truth. We live in a world where a dyslexic have to work 100 times as harder just because there bosses are begging for an excuse to fire them! And they have to study a 100 times harder just to get half of the marks. 

I am not asking for easy tests mind you... All I ask is that they will actually ask us the stuff that we studied and not crap that they found on the internet. But f*ck it... I mean really I have seen the worst this world had to offer. I have experienced things that I wouldn't wish on satan. 

But life just continues to hand me more excrement and expect me to accept it as if it is a f*cking happy meal. And I am not a bad person certainly not evil. I do my bit to help others.

But it seems to me that the humans will become lizards. They do not care for anyone but themselves and will actually oppress others. I know girls that couldn't get jobs because they where unattractive not fat mind you just not cosmetically perfect.  :Mad: 

They end up becoming some 50 year old man's plaything... Now people want to get all high and mighty just because someone smokes!!! Really? The worst crime in the world is smoking?  :Slap: 

Of all the horrible immoral crap that hangs over humanity... smoking is the one unforgivable act...  

Well I f*cking give-up...

----------


## Blurock

Hang in there tec0. I think you are taking it far too seriously. We are all looking at the problem from different angles. I think we ALL agree that smoking is harmful, but we differ to the extent that it is harmful.

Yes, there are other sins, drugs, prostitution, various crime, but that was not the topic, the topic was smoking. 
Yes, there are bosses that apply unfair labour practices, but that was also not the issue. The issue was smoking at work or not.

People can still go and make their dampie, and maybe one of these days they can pull a skyf too. That is really their own choice, although we all know how harmful that can be.

Now do we really have to cut each other's throats because we are so fixed in our views that we can not see the problem from another perspective? :Flowers:

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## pmbguy

> I still think if you are a business owner crying about smoking and no smoking then I would imagine that you don't really care for the product and or service. Because if product and service was a priority then the last thing on your mind would be smoking. I say this because you get good and bad employees that smoke and good and bad employees that are none smokers. So my concern would be "how do I get rid of the bad employees" Not cry about who is smoking!


I agree with you here

Do you think this can work?

A Good size Proper Smoking Area, outside of public view, in or near the business building. 
Open to all but children and clients. 

Cosy Couches, Tea facilities, Internet (Face book, networked for games). Extraction fans and well controlled Circulation. 
Can even make it outdoors close to the building, Kio pond, the whole thing

The smokers (And others if they wish) build, with their own money, the smoking room. 
Circulation is not rocket science and the construction for the room can be cheap. 

If in a room: Proper circulation greatly reduces ambient smoke. If done properly, there in less first and second hand smoke being inhaled by everybody in the room. Employees that smoke will smell less of smoke than they would if they were smoking in a normal room or building. Most non-smokers are not greatly bothered by the smoke smell that remains after proper circulation reduces it, especially compared to a normal room or building.

Hey, not all non-smokers...

(E.g. of schedule. Normal use.  Before 8:00, tea, lunch, 5min each on a single rotation 3:30-5:00 and 5++)

In any business people will naturally push boundaries, just have a strict but fair policy concerning the use of the room.

The room should function as a general room for anything, it just happens to be a smoking area.

http://www.ryandeyer.com/cigar-room/
http://www.ehow.com/how_6017624_desi...king-room.html

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## pmbguy

+ A twin facility for non-smokers

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## Dave S

That's a brilliant idea, but it has its flaws, the smokers must still leave their workplace to have a puff... In the office where I work (with two others) we all smoke, so we smoke whilst we are working. Its not going to work the same for every organisation, with big offices mixed with both smokers and non-smokers. But I find that I actually smoke less when I'm at work, simply because there are no restrictions on when I can smoke. Fortunately our offices are well ventilated and we have those funky automated ionisers (or whatever they're called) that help to keep odours at bay. In contrast, at home I don't smoke in the house, as the Children and the Dogs don't smoke, but even if they did, I don't have ionisers and I don't want to stink up the place anyway, but I find I smoke a bit more than normal... Why would this be?

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## vieome

> Well I f*cking give-up...


http://www.lifewithoutlimbs.org/about-nick/
It is not the challenges that life presents you , it is how you use your mind to rise above the challenges.

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tec0 (11-Apr-13)

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## tec0

> I agree with you here
> 
> Do you think this can work?
> 
> A Good size Proper Smoking Area, outside of public view, in or near the business building. 
> Open to all but children and clients. 
> 
> Cosy Couches, Tea facilities, Internet (Face book, networked for games). Extraction fans and well controlled Circulation. 
> Can even make it outdoors close to the building, Kio pond, the whole thing
> ...


Consider the following. There are products smokers can use in office spaces that has no harmful effects on other people in the same area. So why not just ask smokers to make use of this existing technology?

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## adrianh

tec0 - you must be,talking about those nicotine stickers that people stick ontheir arms, legs, tonsils and foreheads.

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## tec0

> tec0 - you must be,talking about those nicotine stickers that people stick ontheir arms, legs, tonsils and foreheads.


 :No:  nope

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## adrianh

I think that all smokers should walk around with a nicotine sticker on their forehead with the wording: "I are a murderer" printed on it. Then if anybody asks they could explain that they are willfully killing themselves and the people around them.

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## Citizen X

> nope


In South Africa, a non defunct brand Snuss Stuyvesant(BAT): It was a chewing tabacco in a puch, which released nicotine. It ws built on the assumption that initially tabacco was only enjoyed by mostly chewing. It had a nice fancy pouch too! So you were inducging but dirupting nothing! You could enjoy do it while you work! It's still available in other countries under that same brand, not sure why it didn't last here!

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tec0 (12-Apr-13)

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## adrianh

...and then spit in the paper basket every 5 minutes like a skollie at Mitchells Plein station! :-)

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## tec0

> I think that all smokers should walk around with a nicotine sticker on their forehead with the wording: "I are a murderer" printed on it. Then if anybody asks they could explain that they are willfully killing themselves and the people around them.


Well I see you are trying to be a bellend again Adrian.... Did you not say that you have alcohol in the house? Need I remind you that you consume said alcohol at your home. Thus you set the example that it is OK to do so. Need I remind you that alcohol is the number 1 killer on our roads. So why not put a sticker on your forehead telling everyone that you are OK with all the horrible things alcohol causes.

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## adrianh

Nah, gave up drinking a while back...

I think that the sticker idea is really good. How about this, you lot say that smoking doesn't do all the harm that we think; I think that men who smoke should wear those nicotine stickers on the willies. If they are so sure that smoking and nicotine does no harm then they must be willing to prove it...

Now here is a question: Do you think that putting nicotine patches on your willy every day will give your willy cancer? - Would you partake in this trail to prove the point? Come on, be a sport, you've got nothing to lose!

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## Mike C

> nope


Comeon guys!  :Boxing:    TecO has mentioned the electronic cigarette a few times now.  Does anyone know anyone who has actually used one?  What is their take on it?

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## tec0

> Nah, gave up drinking a while back...
> 
> I think that the sticker idea is really good. How about this, you lot say that smoking doesn't do all the harm that we think; I think that men who smoke should wear those nicotine stickers on the willies. If they are so sure that smoking and nicotine does no harm then they must be willing to prove it...
> 
> Now here is a question: Do you think that putting nicotine patches on your willy every day will give your willy cancer? - Would you partake in this trail to prove the point? Come on, be a sport, you've got nothing to lose!


Well I didn't know you wanted to see stickers on other men's penises Adrian. You will be inspecting each sticker personally then?

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## adrianh

ha ha...good one :-)

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## HR Solutions

Have been reading a bit of this thread and had a good laugh at certain stages.  Dont know anyone around here but if I may say, tec you sound like a bit as if the world owes you something.  Unfortunately whoever we are or whatever disadvantage we as individuals have, we have to accept them and learn to live our lives around it.  We cannot all be the CEO of Anglo or the President of the country.  You slot into your specific place in life and at the job place and work to improve yourself and better your own environment, help to support the community and get on with it.  Dont judge people for what they are, rather make sure that if you dont like it, then you disacociate yourself from them and for what they stand for.  Stop complaining, rather do something about a problem you might have.

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## tec0

> Have been reading a bit of this thread and had a good laugh at certain stages.  Dont know anyone around here but if I may say, tec you sound like a bit as if the world owes you something.  Unfortunately whoever we are or whatever disadvantage we as individuals have, we have to accept them and learn to live our lives around it.  We cannot all be the CEO of Anglo or the President of the country.  You slot into your specific place in life and at the job place and work to improve yourself and better your own environment, help to support the community and get on with it.  Dont judge people for what they are, rather make sure that if you dont like it, then you disacociate yourself from them and for what they stand for.  Stop complaining, rather do something about a problem you might have.


And you sound like someone that thinks they are high enough to give others advice. And  :No:  the world owes me nothing. Here is the thing however why must I keep my mouth shut when you and others like you want to oppress people.   :Boxing: 

How is that???  :Whistling:  To harsh???  :Innocent: 

Oh my advice don't pi$$ on people and say you are going to take away there jobs. It's not nice...  :Headbutt:

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## pmbguy

Tec0.... 

I feel your pain...





I was once a very unhappy employee in a business I still like... 


I dont know you from a bar of soap

The one thing I can think of is... #!##.... 

If you are unhappy and you cant change a bad situation, and changing yourself to fit the bad situation is out of the question, then perhaps you seek a good situation.

Not thinking anything drastic, just a thought

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## Blurock

When the world (de)press too much, think of this; 

a plane always takes off against the wind...

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## HR Solutions

I actually don't give a damn about the health factor.  I care about the unproductive time wasting and the little "clicks" it forms between the smokers and the non smokers, especially the young woman! So prefer non smoker employees. And that is our right.

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## adrianh

> and the little "clicks" it forms between the smokers and the non smokers


This is very true. I spent many years as a smoker working in IT. The smokers always formed cliques and stuck together. The cliques spanned across general boundries in that people from all speres in the company would stand "together" as smokers.

After I stopped smoking this was even more noticeable. People don't like to smoke alone for some reason (maybe its like drinking alone). You could also ways see who are the leaders and who are the followers, which ones would go trolling for smoking partners every hour or so. The main grapevine also seemed to be the smokers because they would be from all speres in the company. The guys used to smoke in the stairwells so getting information up and down the company was very easy.

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## tec0

Yea and smoking clients have the right not to do business with you. As stated before you are concerned about smoking and none smoking then the quality of your product and or service can't be that good.

I actually mentioned this discussion to one of my oldest friends a big fish and he told me he will not tolerate it. Now this is from a man that owns several mines and so on. So I would be very careful with this screw all attitude 

And if you want to talk about wasting time? What about the new mobile problem with constant updates and so on? I watched 5 people working in an office for about an hour. The smoker took one smoke break yes. But the rest was constantly on there phones. Basically no work was being done... Now this was from office security camera that we installed and tested.

Some friendly advice, What you send out into the world will comeback amplified. You really don't want to test this...  :No:

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## adrianh

Smoking should be totally banned because it has no positive value whatsoever. A smoker is addicted to a legal drug and he has no control over his addiction. We would frown upon a person who eats a anti-depressant every hour or takes cocaine every hour yet it it ok to smoke. Nicotine acts similarly on the brain as cocaine by interfering with neurotransmitters such as serotonin, dopamine and norepinephrine.

No matter how you sell it, people who smoke are addicted to a mind altering stimulant. That stimulant causes them to waste time and to stink. They can go and stimulate themselves as much as they want on their own time but I will not allow them to contaminate my workplace with their drug dependence.

BTW; tec0 how the f... do you go from smoking to saying that poor quality products are produced in a smoke free environment...eish dude...this is why I tell my kids not to do math in leaps and bounds but rather to write down all the steps...then they are able to clearly show the path of their thinking... Please show us the path of your thinking.

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## HR Solutions

> Yea and smoking clients have the right not to do business with you. As stated before you are concerned about smoking and none smoking then the quality of your product and or service can't be that good.
> 
> I actually mentioned this discussion to one of my oldest friends a “big fish” and he told me he will not tolerate it. Now this is from a man that owns several mines and so on. So I would be very careful with this “screw all attitude” 
> 
> And if you want to talk about wasting time? What about the new mobile problem with constant updates and so on? I watched 5 people working in an office for about an hour. The smoker took one smoke break yes. But the rest was constantly on there phones. Basically no work was being done... Now this was from office security camera that we installed and tested.
> 
> Some friendly advice, What you send out into the world will comeback amplified. You really don't want to test this...


tec you are so right, We can all choose who we want to do business with, thank God more and more people/companies are starting to ban the smoking thing and actually employ non smokers.

And yes cell phones are also a problem and that is the next thing that companies are starting to clamp down on.  So what is your point ?

Dont want to "test" what ??  I think every company out there has the right to do what they want to do, sometimes they dont do the right thing, and sometimes they learn from their mistakes.

Lastly I am a small cigar smoker myself ( on the weekend when I have a drink or two) , not a day to day smoker, so I have nothing against smokers.  We just have a major problem with the little clicks it froms between the smokers and the non smokers and trust me we have a very happy work environment, we have learnt from the past, as Adrian above said the smokers and the non smokers form two different "teams".

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## tec0

It is because of people like you that  more abortions are being done each day in the name of employment. But this to was predicted actually. See this isn't about smoking it is about oppression. People like you cannot tolerate others but you haven't learned the hardest most challenging lesion yet. It is only yours if you can hang on to it... 

You want to take away... then it will be taken away from you.  

You may be big mouth now but one-day when you are hapless and frail these words will bring a truth so powerful that you will weep. I have seen this happen... Thus I know this to be true. 

Toleration creates a tolerant nation. Zero toleration is anarchy. 

But I see you are so eager and ready to light this fire your lust echo trough your words. You think you are ready for the effects... I hope you are... for what you do now will have a effect not only on those that you oppress but it will come back amplified and angry. 

Rather live and let live...

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## adrianh

If some men were created in God's image then I seriously have my doubts about God......

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## HR Solutions

> It is because of people like you that  more abortions are being done each day in the name of employment. But this to was predicted actually. See this isn't about smoking it is about oppression. People like you cannot tolerate others but you haven't learned the hardest most challenging lesion yet. It is only yours if you can hang on to it... 
> 
> You want to take away... then it will be taken away from you.  
> 
> You may be big mouth now but one-day when you are hapless and frail these words will bring a truth so powerful that you will weep. I have seen this happen... Thus I know this to be true. 
> 
> Toleration creates a tolerant nation. Zero toleration is anarchy. 
> 
> But I see you are so eager and ready to light this fire your lust echo trough your words. You think you are ready for the effects... I hope you are... for what you do now will have a effect not only on those that you oppress but it will come back amplified and angry. 
> ...



tec I am afraid we clearly disagree on this point.  There are a few things I am confused about eg "more abortions" etc etc  !!! ???
I am not going to debate/argue this with you.  We all have a right to our opinions and should all respect each opinion.  
But it is clear to me that you are not a business owner, have never had more than 10 staff members, have never had young ladies working for you and have never controlled a work environment of groups of people for a long period of time.  That is your choice, but please dont accuse me and other people of oppression !  I am not stopping people of smoking, I am merely not EMPLOYING smokers.  This is not, not tolerating others !!! This is having non smokers working for us.  

Therefore I think you are a little confused, perhaps you should read my posts above and you will see that "what we are doing now" will have absolutely NO effect on "those we oppress" !!!!!!!!!!

You have come across in quite an attacking way.  Is this because I am a newbie to the site or do you normally attack everyone ?
Not sure if you are a controlling "moderator" of the site ? , But if you attack all new members this way, you will have less and less people posting.  I do not appreciate the attack on me, especially when you have not read my post properly.

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## adrianh

@HR Solutions - don't mind tec0, he gets confused and likes to wind people up, and no, he is not a moderator. 

We all accept his views as well....his views....

Don't let him get to you...he likes to give everybody a go but I must admit that he does have a good heart!

...and yes, I like to wind him up just for the hell of it...

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Blurock (16-Apr-13)

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## Citizen X

[QUOTE=adrianh;87802...and yes, I like to wind him up just for the hell of it...[/QUOTE]

A very good morning to you Adrian :Wink: 

I'm glad that you cleared this up! I often wondered about the exchanges between the two of you :Confused: 
Tec0 is a good debater.

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## Citizen X

> tec I am afraid we clearly disagree on this point. There are a few things I am confused about eg "more abortions" etc etc !!! ???
> I am not going to debate/argue this with you. We all have a right to our opinions and should all respect each opinion. 
> But it is clear to me that you are not a business owner, have never had more than 10 staff members, have never had young ladies working for you and have never controlled a work environment of groups of people for a long period of time. That is your choice, but please dont accuse me and other people of oppression ! I am not stopping people of smoking, I am merely not EMPLOYING smokers. This is not, not tolerating others !!! This is having non smokers working for us. 
> 
> Therefore I think you are a little confused, perhaps you should read my posts above and you will see that "what we are doing now" will have absolutely NO effect on "those we oppress" !!!!!!!!!!
> 
> You have come across in quite an attacking way. Is this because I am a newbie to the site or do you normally attack everyone ?
> Not sure if you are a controlling "moderator" of the site ? , But if you attack all new members this way, you will have less and less people posting. I do not appreciate the attack on me, especially when you have not read my post properly.


A very good morning to you HR Solutions,

I've come to know Tec0 from his many posts. I don't see that he attacks anyone, but rather that he challenges deeply held views and opinions. I think that he gives a balanced view. 
1.Take your stance of having a policy of not employing smokers, I not challenging this, but merely pointing out that there was a time when BAT had a product called 'snuss,' it's still avialable in mnay other countries. It's a pouch that has a little tabacco in it, that you place in your mouth. No smoke, no infringing others rights, no loss of productivity etc. If this product was still available and a potential applicant disclosed his/her use of it, would you then still not hire them?
2. If a potential applicant, disclosed upfront on his/her c.v that he/she is a smoker but commits to never smoking on the employers premises whatsoever, would your position remain the same i.e. the person commits to smoking before work and after work and not even during lunch time???
3. The fact of Tec0 not being in business is irrelevant to the debate! You don't have to experience war to know that it's unpleasant... :Cool:

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## HR Solutions

Thank you Vanesh for your valid comments. I do hear you and acknowledge your points.  But the fact still remains, regarding the little smoker clicks outside, something similar to the car park mothers outside a school.
Your comment of the "not being in business" being irrelevant is not altogether true. Experiencing a war and being directly in the line of fire is far different to reading about it on the news and living it from your lounge.

----------


## Citizen X

> Thank you Vanesh for your valid comments. I do hear you and acknowledge your points. But the fact still remains, regarding the little smoker clicks outside, something similar to the car park mothers outside a school.
> Your comment of the "not being in business" being irrelevant is not altogether true. Experiencing a war and being directly in the line of fire is far different to reading about it on the news and living it from your lounge.


A very good afternoon to you HR Solutions :Big Grin: 
The real problem is what will transpire if a corporate company approaches you and says that they would like to procure your services to recruit 50 branch managers for 50 of their branches.I' aware of many corporate companies that have designated smoking areas.

 They give you the job description and job specification and indicate that they do have designated smoking areas in each branch and further that employees are allowed to smoke in their lunch time etc. The question is then: Will you allow your personal opinions about smoking to select such employees or will you abide by the brief of your client?
Indeed, experiencing war first hand is not the same as watching it on CNN. I hate the fact that I smoke, I’m aware of the regulations and abide by them. I know that smoking is bad for my health and I can actually feel it’s effects when I do exercise. I remain committed to stopping! :Wink: 
_There were many times_ when Tec0 challenged my opinion and I simply had to concede i.e. I had no intelligent response.

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## HR Solutions

Yes with corporates it is quite different.  And the laws within SA are quite laid out.  ie you cannot discriminate against anyone for certain personal issues.  But I was talking about our company and a lot of other companies that we do business with.  When you get a spec from them outlaying a job, they cannot say certain things, but after meeting with them and getting a general feel of their company, a lot of them dont for example want smokers.  And this is becoming more and more common.

PS.  It is the same with some companies.  
Some people only want hot sexy young girls.
Some companies only want men
Some companies only want older people

All of them have a reason for their specifications

It is certainly not as tec says about our product not being good or the service !!

Yea and smoking clients have the right not to do business with you. As stated before you are concerned about smoking and none smoking then the quality of your product and or service can't be that good

And as I said above, this statement shows a fair amount of ignorance.

----------


## Citizen X

The reality is that those of us who do smoke can only argue this matter so much as the law is not on our side! This is not an argument that a smoker can actually win!

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## HR Solutions

> The reality is that those of us who do smoke can only argue this matter so much as the law is not on our side! This is not an argument that a smoker can actually win!


Yes you are right.  And as I said a few postings above.  I am a social cigar smoker, but I strongly feel this way.
I mean if you think about it, even at a braai the guys group together around the braai, the smokers group together, now put this into a work environment, it is sometimes not the best thing.

----------


## Blurock

We are getting a bit emotional on our views about smoking, are we not? That is why we bring in the bad boss, the bad employee, the house cat, the neighbours, the guys that smoked at school, my grandfather's dog.....  :Surrender:

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## HR Solutions

Hi Blurock.  Sorry if we are getting emotional.  Sometimes when one talks or chats via a forum emotions do creep in.

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## tec0

The reality is that companies are secretly discriminating against individuals. Mothers and married women for example cannot find good work for example. The company owners want young single women with no families. 

This will allow them to bypass what they consider to be problematic circumstances. Also it makes them available for other none work related activities. That is why labour brokers and labour higher companies must get a "feel" for there clients. They know the laws will not condone it but they have too. 

Now this type of discrimination is indirectly responsible for people taking aggressive steps like abortions, legal narcotic dependency AKA stress medication. Yet alcohol is still condoned at some companies and if you can't have a drink with your boss then your future becomes dark very fast. This is another reality. 

Thus by condoning this oppressive behaviour “of the books” the effects become horrific. Abortions, narcotic dependency, and suicide is part of the aftermath.  

See the process of escalation is a mathematical certainty. Now despite a constant veritable humans are statistically predictable, now combine this with a mathematical certainty... Then I am sorry to say, you will end up with a very grim future. 

I am not trying to be difficult, I am just trying to show you that every action have an equal yet opposite reaction.

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## HR Solutions

Ok tec, if you think so.

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## HR Solutions

Ok tec, if you think so.
I have just read your signature

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## Blurock

@tec0, Yes there is discrimination in the workplace. There has to be, to create a viable business. The type of business will determine the type of preference for new employees. A model agency will not hire roughneck labourers and a construction company will not hire models to dig trenches.

Are you not overreacting a bit?

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## vieome

@tec0 life is unfair and one just has to accept it, in a world of billions we can all think the same or get our own way, I know you looking at how a little law against a specific group can evolve, but some laws are there to protect people so we have to accept them. 

http://mindhacks.com/2013/04/16/what...ark-prejudice/


What does it take to spark prejudice?
April 16, 2013 – 1:53 pm

Short answer: surprisingly little. Continuing the theme of revisiting classic experiments in psychology, last week’s BBC Future column was on Tajfel’s Minimal Group Paradigm. The original is here. Next week we’re going to take this foundation and look at some evolutionary psychology of racism (hint: it won’t be what you’d expect).

How easy is it for the average fair-minded person to form biased, preconceived views within groups? Surprisingly easy, according to psychology studies.

One of the least charming but most persistent aspects of human nature is our capacity to hate people who are different. Racism, sexism, ageism, it seems like all the major social categories come with their own “-ism”, each fuelled by regrettable prejudice and bigotry.

Our tendency for groupness appears to be so strong there seems little more for psychology to teach us. It’s not as if we need it proven that favouring our group over others is a common part of how people think – history provides all the examples we need. But one psychologist, Henri Tajfel, taught us something important. He showed exactly how little encouragement we need to treat people in a biased way because of the group they are in.

Any phenomenon like this in the real world comes entangled with a bunch of other, complicating phenomenon. When we see prejudice in the everyday world it is hard to separate out psychological biases from the effects of history, culture and even pragmatism (sometimes people from other groups really are out to get you).

As a social psychologist, Tajfel was interested in the essential conditions of group prejudice. He wanted to know what it took to turn the average fair-minded human into their prejudiced cousin.

He wanted to create a microscope for looking at how we think when we’re part of a group, even when that group has none of the history, culture or practical importance that groups normally do. To look at this, he devised what has become known as the “minimal group paradigm”

The minimal group paradigm works like this: participants in the experiment are divided into groups on some arbitrary basis. Maybe eye-colour, maybe what kind of paintings they like, or even by tossing a coin. It doesn’t matter what the basis for group membership is, as long as everyone gets a group and knows what it is. After being told they are in a group, participants are divided up so that they are alone when they make a series of choices about how rewards will be shared among other people in the groups. From this point on, group membership is entirely abstract. Nobody else can be seen, and other group members are referred to by an anonymous number. Participants make choices such as “Member Number 74 (group A) to get 10 points and Member 44 (group B) to get 8 points”, versus “Member Number 74 (group A) to get 2 points and Member 44 (group B) to get 6 points”, where the numbers are points which translate into real money.

You won’t be surprised to learn that participants show favouritism towards their own group when dividing the money. People in group A were more likely to choose the first option I gave above, rather than the second. What is more surprising is that people show some of this group favouritism even when it ends up costing them points – so people in group B sometimes choose the second option, or options like it, even though it provides fewer points than the first option. People tend to opt for the maximum total reward (as you’d expect from the fair-minded citizen), but they also show a tendency to maximise the difference between the groups (what you’d expect from the prejudiced cousin).

The effect may be small, but this is a situation where the groups have been plucked out of the air by the experimenters. Every participant knows which group he or she is in, but they also know that they weren’t in this group before they started the experiment, that their assignment was arbitrary or completely random, and that the groups aren’t going to exist in any meaningful way after the experiment. They also know that their choices won’t directly affect them (they are explicitly told that they won’t be given any choices to make about themselves). Even so, this situation is enough to evoke favouritism.

So, it seems we’ll take the most minimal of signs as a cue to treat people differently according to which group they are in. Tajfel’s work suggests that in-group bias is as fundamental to thinking as the act of categorisations itself. If we want to contribute to a fairer world we need to be perpetually on guard to avoid letting this instinct run away with itself.

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## HR Solutions

> @tec0 life is unfair and one just has to accept it


Thats it.  You have to accept it, adapt, fit in and strive to better yourself.  Because then you will make it.

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## HR Solutions

Just thought I would share with you.  Another vacancy on our books today:

Vacancy:
 * Receptionist Position
 * Elandsfontein
 * Mature, English speaking female
 * Must be computer literate (Word and Excel)
 * All reception related duties
 * Fax, email, filing etc.
 * NON SMOKER
 * Salary ******
 * Please send CV to *********

Another company wanting a NON smoker !


PS.  If you perhaps do know of someone who fits the bill, please contact me on the number below.
I have removed the consultants e mail address as there are people here that strongly disagree with the NON smoking policy, therfore she may also be bombarded.

----------


## Ohreally

Of course more and more people are supporting health life now and would not like to have smokers next to them, it's obvious!

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## Dave S

> Of course more and more people are supporting health life now and would not like to have smokers next to them, it's obvious!


And who determines what "health life" is?...

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## HR Solutions

Yes you are right Dave, it is not up to someone else to determine what health life is for another person.  But it is a fact that more and more companies are going the non smoking route, but it is because if they can eleminate one more distraction for their staff, the better for them.  They then use the health reason as an excuse.

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## adrianh

There are many industries where health is of the utmost importance...pilots for instance. Imagine a long-haul pilot needing to go off and have a smoke every hour during a 14 hour flight. There is not a company on this planet that will pay to train an unhealthy pilot, it just doesn't make sense to invest that kind of money in a person who doesn't look after themself. Maybe this country should take the same stance with bus drivers...

----------


## tec0

You are intolerant and yet you demand respect or you will reject those who seek jobs just to proof a point. If you don't agree with someone you will actually go as far as to discredit that person or you will try and make a mockery out of them. 

How many people died because someone that had a problem with there religion, behaviour or there race? How many people had to suffer because of single-mindedness?  

Well I got news for you... What ever you send out will come back. Now if you send good into the world you can expect good things. But if you send bad into the world it will come back. Like a curse it will invoke evil upon you or perhaps your bloodline. But just remember it started with you...

I am not for smoking but I will not damn someone just because they do smoke... Each of us has a right to life.

Here is a little song I hold very dear to my heart. [Serj Tankian - Harakiri]

Watch it...

----------


## adrianh

What are you on about?

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## AndyD

> How many people died because someone that had a problem with there religion, behaviour or there race?


I guess you might actually have an argument if you're wondering why smoking was banned rather than religion. Religion would possibly have a higher death toll by passive effects on those who don't partake and the stastics/peer reviewed evidence to back this up would be more conclusive.

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## AndyD

> What are you on about?


Made me laugh.

Maybe yourself and Tec have more in common than you might think...short attention span...off on multiple simultaneous tangents. Don't take this the wrong way, I'm just thinking out loud whilst smiling.  :Smile:

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## tec0

If you like, I can take you to the homes of the people that I was able to help when there employers became unfair. Then I will take you to the streets and graveyards and show you the names and faces of those who I was unable to help. That is what happens when bad people get there way with everything. Depression and hopelessness is a reality and not being tolerate doesn't help at all...  :No: 

If you look at the above video it actually shows a lot of statistics of what IS happening in the "now"

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## adrianh

Aye Andy, I readily admit to being a f*cknut and I am happy to do do so. You see, calling me crazy isn't an insult, to the contrary, it sure is better than being considered to be blandly average.

Tec0, I don't really give a crap about all them people, they need to fight their own battles. I fight my own battles and I am happy to do so. You need to understand that the world is what it is and you choose to see it the way that you do. A steet sweeper can choose to cry about their k@k life or they can choose to whistle and dance down the road....it's all in the mind.

You see, I am accepting of my ffedup mind and my circumstance, it would be great if it is better and I strive to make it so, if I succeed then great and if I don't, well that's great too. I've lived longer than I thought I would so each day is a gift.

Nobody will ever make me feel guilty about the way I see the world; we all get dealt a hand and we choose how we play it, we win some, we lose some, but at the end of the day it is your hand and it is your choice to play or to fold.

----------


## pmbguy

I dug 3.7ton of gound for my trampoleen hole. Good topsoil for vegi... 

My wife was concerned, no sex for her tonight. I Love my wife...................

(something clever)


I just wish the wife would or could be in a common frame of sentiment regaring the "thing". You now that thing , that thing, that thiniiing. 

And thus and so forth, its like using a spinner for brown trout....

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## adrianh

Well said, you minister of education you

----------


## tec0

I have been studying to try and better my qualifications. Now with all the corruption "leaks" when it comes to question papers it is virtually impossible... See they don't tell us anything we have to smell the truth and for the most part those responsible will happily feed us crap in and keep us in the dark. As long as the money keeps rolling in they have no intention to ask about unfair papers nor how "some" got there hands on them before hand. 

The ugly truth is those question papers are under there control not ours so the leaks MUST start with them trying to make extra money. So much for bettering yourself hey... It is always so easy to spew out this crap of "you can do something about it if you want" that is just BS... You can do nothing!!! Not one damn thing because the corrupt made it impossible to do so. 

Like I said before this is not just about smoking... It is about toleration... But the absolute slap in the face is you are not tolerate you demand your rights!! BUT when it comes to you and your actions others must remain tolerate towards you. Now I know many young people I myself use to be one. We worked the crappy jobs and most of the time we don't even get paid because the employer are to drunk or to full or crap to pay... They always find some excuse...

So I don't really care for your world because it is only yours as long as you can hang on to it. Thankfully we are getting clever, we figure out how to do things cheaper better faster that is what the young generation are good for. So in the end when you close up shop because your customers found someone younger better... I would love to be a fly on that wall....

Now you will say there is no chance... Well I can point to a few companies that lost there customers to other businesses so I say it is only a matter of time.  :Wink: 

The truth is you will actually take away people's jobs JUST BECAUSE you think that there is something wrong with smoking. So for that same reason I hope that someone clever better will come along and find the same reason to do the same thing to you. Let's see if you like your own medicine... 

The really sad thing is I am not a bad person I will normally not say things like you see above....  :No:  

Well so much for being human...

----------


## adrianh

tec0 - realy check There was a 150 jobs offered at TESCO in England and 4,300 people applied, yes 4,300. 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/arti...sco-store.html

I bet you that when time came to choose 150 people not one of them was a smoker. You need to get it through your head that working for any company is a priviledge and not a right. I choose the employee who I want to work for MY company on MY terms. If you want to be one of the 150 employed out out of 4,300 applicants then you had better get off your butt, get an education or skill, stop smoking and quit your whining.

----------


## vieome

> I have been studying to try and better my qualifications. Now with all the corruption "leaks" when it comes to question papers it is virtually impossible... See they don't tell us anything we have to smell the truth and for the most part those responsible will happily feed us crap in and keep us in the dark. As long as the money keeps rolling in they have no intention to ask about unfair papers nor how "some" got there hands on them before hand. 
> 
> The ugly truth is those question papers are under there control not ours so the leaks MUST start with them trying to make extra money. So much for bettering yourself hey... It is always so easy to spew out this crap of "you can do something about it if you want" that is just BS... You can do nothing!!! Not one damn thing because the corrupt made it impossible to do so. 
> 
> Like I said before this is not just about smoking... It is about toleration... But the absolute slap in the face is you are not tolerate you demand your rights!! BUT when it comes to you and your actions others must remain tolerate towards you. Now I know many young people I myself use to be one. We worked the crappy jobs and most of the time we don't even get paid because the employer are to drunk or to full or crap to pay... They always find some excuse...
> 
> So I don't really care for your world because it is only yours as long as you can hang on to it. Thankfully we are getting clever, we figure out how to do things cheaper better faster that is what the young generation are good for. So in the end when you close up shop because your customers found someone younger better... I would love to be a fly on that wall....
> 
> Now you will say there is no chance... Well I can point to a few companies that lost there customers to other businesses so I say it is only a matter of time. 
> ...


The only person who can change your view of the world is yourself, so stop blaming everyone else and take a look in the mirror. How does other people cheating, stop you from passing? where do you draw the line  in your argument for tolerance, why dont you accept that people cheat, like how you want companies to accept smokers.  Just cause you watch some video on youtube with given statistics dont make what the video says true. Would you have a problem if teachers smoked in class, would you have a problem if doctors smoked in operating rooms, or maternal wards, just where do you draw the line. Must a doctor lose his job because he is a chain smoker and needs to smoke while operating. The more you focus on the negative in the this world the more you will see of it. You believe that your thoughts and actions attract things to you, so why keep finding things that bring you these negative thoughts. 

This is a smoking hot thread but goes to show that it is smoking hot because focus is here. Smoking is an addiction, people smoke not because it is cool, but because they are addicted. So where must a company draw the line and say a certain addict is allowed in the work place, so have smokers but dont have heroin addicts. To refuse rules because they might lead to intolerance is really being an anarchist. You may think that company owners are wrong for not wanting smokers in the work place, but how do you become the judge when what you asking for, is for everyone to stand by and watch as someone slowly kills himself.

----------

Dave A (26-Apr-13)

----------


## tec0

> The only person who can change your view of the world is yourself, so stop blaming everyone else and take a look in the mirror. How does other people cheating, stop you from passing? where do you draw the line  in your argument for tolerance, why dont you accept that people cheat, like how you want companies to accept smokers.  Just cause you watch some video on youtube with given statistics dont make what the video says true. Would you have a problem if teachers smoked in class, would you have a problem if doctors smoked in operating rooms, or maternal wards, just where do you draw the line. Must a doctor lose his job because he is a chain smoker and needs to smoke while operating. The more you focus on the negative in the this world the more you will see of it. You believe that your thoughts and actions attract things to you, so why keep finding things that bring you these negative thoughts. 
> 
> This is a smoking hot thread but goes to show that it is smoking hot because focus is here. Smoking is an addiction, people smoke not because it is cool, but because they are addicted. So where must a company draw the line and say a certain addict is allowed in the work place, so have smokers but dont have heroin addicts. To refuse rules because they might lead to intolerance is really being an anarchist. You may think that company owners are wrong for not wanting smokers in the work place, but how do you become the judge when what you asking for, is for everyone to stand by and watch as someone slowly kills himself.


Well just look at your own replies... You are more demanding then what I am. All I am asking for is some toleration some consideration and accept that some people need what they need to function normally. Smoking is not the same as drugs or alcohol yet you do not think so. Thus my conclusion is you don't know much about the subject. 

When I pointed to other products that would eliminate the the need for smokers to go outside and or the need for special facilities you ignore them. Thus your intention was clear to me, you wish to oppress people. 

There is no getting around it... I mean just look at your own replies “posts” and contributions. That is slaver talk... Well an intolerant world brings forth anarchy. 

As for watching people die, that is kind of the point of the song if you actually took the time to take it all in. Each and everyone of us will die. Not because of smoking mind you. Right now half of all our fish died in the dam because someone dumped poison in it. Even the animals died from drinking it. It was in our local newspapers. NOW companies cannot tolerate smokers but it is OK to poison our dams because they must survive? 

Eventually there will come a time where purification systems will no longer be able to purify the volume of water needed to sustain a city and or agriculture. So if you want to get all high an mighty start there... But you will not...

But you made your choice... So I rest my case... You want to be a d!ck and push other people around then go for it... They will start to push back eventually.

----------


## vieome

Okay you win!

----------


## adrianh

@vieome - Many people in life are like TVs. Although there are sometimes interesting programs to watch and there might be a diversity of channels on one TV, the experience is not interactive no matter how much energy you expend talking to the screen... :Banghead:

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## HR Solutions

tec not sure if you are sniffing glue or what, but you are way off the track.
Every company has a right to employ who they want to !
I certainly would not employ a huge fat guy to for example go into a ceiling to install a geyser !
I WOULD employ a hot young female to sell office equipment.  This is being done.
I would not employ a hugely religious person to make bombs if I owned a dynamite factory.  Im joking here ......
And I would not employ a smoker!
My choice, lots of company's choice. End of story.
If you want to play the pity thing, that is your choice, but no-one is going to give a damn about you if you do !  
Just a tip here.  Candidates should better themselves from dressing better, to getting a better education etc etc.

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## tec0

> tec not sure if you are sniffing glue or what, but you are way off the track.
> Every company has a right to employ who they want to !
> I certainly would not employ a huge fat guy to for example go into a ceiling to install a geyser !
> I WOULD employ a hot young female to sell office equipment.  This is being done.
> I would not employ a hugely religious person to make bombs if I owned a dynamite factory.  Im joking here ......
> And I would not employ a smoker!
> My choice, lots of company's choice. End of story.
> If you want to play the pity thing, that is your choice, but no-one is going to give a damn about you if you do !  
> Just a tip here.  Candidates should better themselves from dressing better, to getting a better education etc etc.


Did you know that illegal drugs employ more people then you do? Find more "work" for young people then you do? Did you know that more then half of them will end up in our prisons or dead. Do you know why that is? Not because of smoking that I can promise you. They are there because they couldn't find jobs that would pay them enough money so that they can actually support themselves. Now that is your doing... Not mine... Your standards... Not mine... 

Don't judge people because to this I will testify!!! I have found the best people in the worst places of our country. People so open so beautiful so humble that I get tears in my eyes just thinking about them. People that despite every hardship remained true...

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## Blurock

Is smoking your toe nails considered a health risk.....? :Whistling:

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## tec0

> Is smoking your toe nails considered a health risk.....?


Don't know... but I do know people that will light up nail clippings and eat the ash... Apparently it keeps one young??? Don't know if that is true or not...

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## adrianh

So tec0 - 

do you want your airline pilot to sneak off every hour to smoke in the toilet during a 14 hour flight? 
or..
do you want to be served by a waitress whos breath smells like an ashtray?
or even better..
how about your dentist, would you like it if he sneaks out halfway through your root canal and comes back smelling like a dead goat?

----------


## tec0

> So tec0 - 
> 
> do you want your airline pilot to sneak off every hour to smoke in the toilet during a 14 hour flight? 
> or..
> do you want to be served by a waitress whos breath smells like an ashtray?
> or even better..
> how about your dentist, would you like it if he sneaks out halfway through your root canal and comes back smelling like a dead goat?


OR you can just supply them with an electronic alternative and they will have no need to sneak of every hour or have bad breath. My dentist do smoke and she uses mouth wash  :Wink:

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## AndyD

My dentist doesn't smoke but he does have something of a musty smell about him sometimes. I used to have a bookkeeper and she regularly smelled like the South end of a Northbound skunk, we broached the subject of personal hygiene on several occasions but to little avail. I even installed an air freshener that automatically squirted every 20 mins in the office but thankfully she emigrated.

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Dave A (26-Apr-13)

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## Dave A

> do you want your airline pilot to sneak off every hour to smoke in the toilet during a 14 hour flight?


Apparently they just light up in the cockpit. That security door sure has its advantages.

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## Mike C

Once again discrimination raises its ugly head.

----------

adrianh (26-Apr-13), Citizen X (26-Apr-13)

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## HR Solutions

> OR you can just supply them with an electronic alternative and they will have no need to sneak of every hour or have bad breath. My dentist do smoke and she uses mouth wash


Why should WE supply them with an "electronic alternative".  They must supply their own !

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## adrianh

While we're at it we must build a bar as well for those who need to have a shot of J&B every hour to calm their nerves.

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## HR Solutions

lol .... yeah and also build a counter for those that still snort the odd occasional line. No No silly me they can use the bar you are going to build for them.

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## tec0

> Why should WE supply them with an "electronic alternative".  They must supply their own !


Why must I give you an answer? Anyone can be a jerk you know...  :Mad: 

Look obviously they can bring there own alternative to work but that kind of goes without saying. It is just most employers have a little shop for soft-drinks, that kind of thing. Now NORMALLY because it makes a bit of MONEY the employer will supply smokes and so on. THUS the alternative to smokes being the electronic alternative can be supplied. If you look what I have written, Where did I say the employer have to pay for it?

----------


## tec0

> While we're at it we must build a bar as well for those who need to have a shot of J&B every hour to calm their nerves.


I know of a very large computer company that has it's own bar... Sorry to take the "joke" out of your joke there Adrian... But I even know of offices with there own bedrooms and showers... "wonder what that is for" mmm See you never lived in the real world "the cold one" Here reality is a bit harsh and unforgiving...

----------


## HR Solutions

Lol ..... Promise u we don't and will never have any little shop supplying smokes !

----------


## tec0

> Lol ..... Promise u we don't and will never have any little shop supplying smokes !


Right.... This is the part where I would say "I knew you say that" comes to mind but... Dude I can see a great deal of things are beneath you... So much so that the word "snob" comes to mind... But I will not call you a "snob" because I may insult the dictionary... 

But I must congratulate you on a job. I was in abattoirs had to clean toilets, showers and urinals... I saw things you would not really want to mention on a public forum. But your logo just makes me want to barf "Eject the contents of the stomach through the mouth" its amazing...

----------


## adrianh

Ah you see but those companies don't make their bars and bedrooms available to the "addicted" so as to satisfy their "need" every hour. 

I think that it is great to have a couple of beers knob the secretary after work! - come to think of it, it would be even better if the boss was a lady....one could work his up the the ladder in her stocking!

----------


## tec0

> Ah you see but those companies don't make their bars and bedrooms available to the "addicted" so as to satisfy their "need" every hour. 
> 
> I think that it is great to have a couple of beers knob the secretary after work! - come to think of it, it would be even better if the boss was a lady....one could work his up the the ladder in her stocking!


And what if it is one of your family members that are employed at such a company Adrian? Then you would not condone it now would you? 

What I am pointing at is this, smoking is not the worst thing there is...

----------


## HR Solutions

Lol ..... Again

----------


## adrianh

Let me tell you, if my son could work his way up the "run in her hose" I would be very proud. 

You see, it works like this; there are many ways to reach the top, you could work your a$$ off or you could simply make your way up a leg tightly wrapped in Victoria's secret! - Get real, it's Victoria's secret for me all the way.

BTW: The reason smokers fail at the business of working their way up the ladder in the stocking is because smoking impairs their ability to sniff out high quality aquatic cuisine.....so to speak!

----------


## HR Solutions

Believe me I have done far worse and dirtier work than you will ever do tec. So you may call me anything you like. I have worked my way thro all the shit things in life.  Nothing was given to me like most people out there. So if I don't employ smokers at work and that makes me whatever you would like to call me, then that is fine. It doesn't really worry me what you think of me tec.

----------


## tec0

> Believe me I have done far worse and dirtier work than you will ever do tec. So you may call me anything you like. I have worked my way thro all the shit things in life.  Nothing was given to me like most people out there. So if I don't employ smokers at work and that makes me whatever you would like to call me, then that is fine. It doesn't really worry me what you think of me tec.


Now that is BS... You see, if you actually did work hard and had to sacrifice just about everything then actually you would not discriminate against people. The thought would not cross your mind. See you talk the talk and you have some success yes. But  :No:  I don't think you experienced all the things you claim you did. Your own mentality and mindset gave you away. 

Same with Adrian, he also claim a lot of things, but I studied your input and his and I predicted the above... I was wrong with Adrian this time around I didn't know he had a son. I thought he would be a bit more protective of his offspring. Here is the response or "post" I thought he would make [I won't let any of my family work for such a place... But it doesn't mean I have to employ smokers *** add insult here ***]

But not to worry, you are what you are and you do what you do... 

Thing is "if you look at all the post here" Everyone else knows it now too... Some will find it an attractive quality... Others will not.

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## adrianh

Since when do I have a son?

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## HR Solutions

Haha ........ Thank u tec for the last bit of entertainment before I go to bed  :Smile:

----------


## adrianh

'The trouble with most folks ain't so much their ignorance as knowing so many things that ain't so.'
 - Josh Billings

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## tec0

> Since when do I have a son?





> *Let me tell you, if my son could work his way up the "run in her hose" I would be very proud.*


 :Detective:

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## adrianh

tec0 - you're joking right? 

Do you mean to tell me that you take everything that eveybody says literally? Wow, now there is a totally novel idea. God forbid somebody tells you to "go jump in a lake" or "go play in the traffic". "Going from the frying pan into the fire" must be very sore in your house!

Damn dude, I've never met anybody else who struggles with figurative speech. Even my 12 year old daughter understands that when I say that I would rather poke my eyes out with a pencil than watch Vampire diaries that I mean it figuratively.

Ok, just for the sake of clarity; I have 2 daughters aged 12 and 14. They are growing up to be fine young ladies who are able to reason for themselves (mostly because I needle them all the time {{ tec0 - just to set your mind at ease - "needling them" means to (how to put the phrase "to keep them on their mental toes, rip them off, bite them shit, wind them up" into literal terms.... ok here goes - to have bilateral communications that makes them think (further than their noses - figuratuvely speaking of course)}}

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## HR Solutions

Yes he does miss a lot but it seems everyone just goes with the flow here with him.  It seems that it is like talking to someone that you know just doesn't catch the story every time, but you just carry on regardless.

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## Dave A

If we all shared the same view on everything, we wouldn't need this forum.

And if we didn't have the occassional thread like this, people would forget why they should play the ball and not the man.

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## HR Solutions

You re right Dave.  New members should not be attacked the way I was. And if there s no moderation one has to then stand up for yourself !

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## adrianh

At the end of the day its all just mindless banter anyway...  we just jump in the ring, dance about a bit and do it all over again another day. The thing is not to take it personally.

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## tec0

> tec0 - you're joking right? 
> 
> Do you mean to tell me that you take everything that eveybody says literally? Wow, now there is a totally novel idea. God forbid somebody tells you to "go jump in a lake" or "go play in the traffic". "Going from the frying pan into the fire" must be very sore in your house!
> 
> Damn dude, I've never met anybody else who struggles with figurative speech. Even my 12 year old daughter understands that when I say that I would rather poke my eyes out with a pencil than watch Vampire diaries that I mean it figuratively.
> 
> Ok, just for the sake of clarity; I have 2 daughters aged 12 and 14. They are growing up to be fine young ladies who are able to reason for themselves (mostly because I needle them all the time {{ tec0 - just to set your mind at ease - "needling them" means to (how to put the phrase "to keep them on their mental toes, rip them off, bite them shit, wind them up" into literal terms.... ok here goes - to have bilateral communications that makes them think (further than their noses - figuratuvely speaking of course)}}


There was no hint in your previous post to suggest that you are talking figuratively. Also I don't know your family personally so how was I to know? Look at your own sentence structure... Now if you started with "If I had a son bla bla bla" [note the "if"] then there go... 

As for "HR Solutions" your boyfriend/girlfriend and or "IT" ripping me a new one... It is called an education  :Wink:  Try to keep up  :Stick Out Tongue:  

I am dyslexic and I know this stuff  :Huh: 

See you try to belittle me and so on and you try to oppress people and we must just "take it" nah you have another thing coming...  :Cool: 

See the truth people will read this and knowing what IS happening in South Africa right now... They may not take oppression kindly because of all the other things... Just saying that people are already pushed into a corner do you really want to push them even harder? Do you think that is a good idea? 

Why not just live and let live? There is enough bad things happening hey? 

Come on? What do you have to lose? There is enough technologies available to ease the discomfort and or even eliminate it.    

Live and let live  :Innocent:

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## HR Solutions

> Why not just live and let live? There is enough bad things happening hey?


Exactly, so butt out when people do not want to employ smokers !

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## adrianh

Ok, I make you a deal. Because I discriminate against smokers I will make up for it by employing dumb blondes who have big boobs. That should even things out. My workplace will be a fine establishment with Dolly Parton look-alikes. We won't get much work done but we will sure be very very happy.

Now please don't tell me that you want me me to discriminate against pretty girls who have big boobs, that would be unfair. 

Hey tec0 - I WILL NOT HIRE SMOKERS - no amount of whinging on your part will change my mind!

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## adrianh

> I am dyslexic


Please explain in your own words what this means exactly and how this has anything to do with a conversation about hiring smokers!

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## HR Solutions

> I am dyslexic


And I am afraid to say, but some companies wont hire dyslexic's either !  Call it discrimination if you want to, call it anything you want to , it is a fact of life !  As other companies wont hire blondes with big boobs and some companies wont hire men in certain sales fields.  Some companies wont hire people that live more than 10km from their workplace ....... due to the traffic and because it will affect their productivity.   Everyone has to live with these criteria, but you cannot cry "discrimination" everytime a company chooses their right to hire who they want to hire. There are criteria in every job spec and some people will fit the spec and some wont.

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## adrianh

Seems that there are numerous highly successful dyslexics.... http://www.dyslexia.com/famous.htm

So what exactly is the point that you are trying to make about being dyslexic?

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## tec0

> And I am afraid to say, but some companies wont hire dyslexic's either !  Call it discrimination if you want to, call it anything you want to , it is a fact of life !  As other companies wont hire blondes with big boobs and some companies wont hire men in certain sales fields.  Some companies wont hire people that live more than 10km from their workplace ....... due to the traffic and because it will affect their productivity.   Everyone has to live with these criteria, but you cannot cry "discrimination" everytime a company chooses their right to hire who they want to hire. There are criteria in every job spec and some people will fit the spec and some wont.


And that is actually against the law... and against our constitution... I would stop here sir... I understand that you dislike me but to make yourself guilty on a public forum may be ill-advised. Please I am serious now rather not confess things like this. I am not being funny or sarcastic or judgemental. Please hear me stuff like this may well have effects that you rather would avoid. 

Like I said, my best intentions now... Please take my advice. 

I would request the Admin to perhaps remove that post. It really would take 1 phone call and 1 print screen. Check if you can delete it and please do so sir. I am not being funny or anything.

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## HR Solutions

Oh tec oh tec it is clear that you cannot have a conversation:  Let me explain just one of the things I mentioned in my "illegal" post.
If a client wants a MAN (only) to do a specific job, because the company is doing for example undercover market research into the mens changing rooms at a gym, then the criteria would be for MEN only !!!!!! The spec would say this, therefore the job is not open to women.  I am afraid to say there is nothing illegal about this or "against the law".

I am even going to give you one futher example:- where there is nothing wrong with being dyslexic as Adrian says, but this person would not be hired in an accountants office writing down figures !!  Therefore an accountant would not want this (in this job).  This person could probably be fantastic at another job tho. But not at that job.

I am not going to have any further "discussions" with you regarding this thread.  You are ill advised.  You are making posts about the LAW without knowing what you are talking about !! You are even going so far as threatening another poster. 

I am sure I will speak with you on another thread.

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## Citizen X

> Oh tec oh tec it is clear that you cannot have a conversation: Let me explain just one of the things I mentioned in my "illegal" post.
> If a client wants a MAN (only) to do a specific job, because the company is doing for example undercover market research into the mens changing rooms at a gym, then the criteria would be for MEN only !!!!!! The spec would say this, therefore the job is not open to women. I am afraid to say there is nothing illegal about this or "against the law".
> 
> I am even going to give you one futher example:- where there is nothing wrong with being dyslexic as Adrian says, but this person would not be hired in an accountants office writing down figures !! Therefore an accountant would not want this (in this job). This person could probably be fantastic at another job tho. But not at that job.
> 
> I am not going to have any further "discussions" with you regarding this thread. You are ill advised. You are making posts about the LAW without knowing what you are talking about !! You are even going so far as threatening another poster. 
> 
> I am sure I will speak with you on another thread.


A very good afternoon to you HR Solutions,

I'm a trifle dissapointed with your position on recruitment and selection

The Employment Equity Act 55 of 1998(as amended) *is very clear* that no employer may discriminate, even in recruitment directly or even indirectly on any arbitrary and frivolous ground including disability. Disability includes learning disabilities. Corporate South Africa is well aware of this and actually have recruitment policies in place to comply by included all designated groups. The definitional clause in this Act is very informative in this regard!
*Section 6(1) EEA*:No person may unfairly discriminate, directly or indirectly, against an employee, in any employment policy or practice, on one or more grounds, including race, gender, sex, pregnancy, marital status, family responsibility, ethnic or social origin, colour, 
sexual orientation, age, *disability*, religion, HIV status, conscience, belief, political opinion, culture, language and birth.


*“designated groups”* means black people, women and people with disabilities

*“people with disabilities”* means people who have a long-term or recurring physical or mental impairment which substantially limits their prospects of entry into, or advancement in, employment;


*“employment policy or practice”* includes, but is not limited to -


(a) *recruitment procedures, advertising and selection criteria*;

(b) appointments and the appointment process;

(c) job classification and grading;

(d) remuneration, employment benefits and terms and conditions of employment;

(e) job assignments;

(f) the working environment and facilities;

(g) training and development;

(h) performance evaluation systems;

(i) promotion;

(j) transfer;

(k) demotion;

(l) disciplinary measures other than dismissal; and

(m) dismissal.


*Section 5 EEA:** Elimination of unfair discrimination*


*Every* employer must take steps to promote equal opportunity in the workplace by eliminating unfair discrimination in any employment policy or practice


The Bill of Rights(Constitution of 1996-Supreme Lawof our land) i.e. sections section 9(3) & (4)[ sub-section 4 read in conjunction with subsection 3]


(3) The state may not unfairly discriminate directly or indirectly against anyone on one or more grounds, including race, gender, sex, pregnancy, marital status, ethnic or social origin, colour, sexual orientation, age, *disability*, religion, conscience, belief, culture, language and birth. 

(4) *No person* may unfairly discriminate directly or indirectly against anyone on one or more grounds in terms of subsection (3). National legislation must be enacted to prevent or prohibit unfair discrimination.


National Legislation in the form of the Employment Equity Act has been implemented for this purpose

PS I will address 'differentiation,' and the 'inherent requirements,' of a job shortly..

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## Citizen X

> If a client wants a MAN (only) to do a specific job, because the company is doing for example undercover market research into the mens changing rooms at a gym, then the criteria would be for MEN only !!!!!!



I Presume that you using section 6(2)(b) of the Employment Equity Act 55 of 1998 as a basis for you proposition. Indeed, there are two grounds for discrimination namely affirmative action and inherent requirements for a job.

Anyone with a disability *which lawfully* includes a learning disability is an affirmative action candidate. So let’s assume Mr X, has a learning disability, other applicants can be discriminated against and MR X given the position on the basis of affirmative action!

To address inherent requirements of a job, one must by necessity look at the objectives and purpose of this act and apply extreme reasonableness to the exclusion of an employee. To put things into perspective section 6(2)(b) of the EEA stipulates:
It is not unfair discrimination to -(a)take affirmative action measures consistent with the purpose of this Act; or (b) distinguish, exclude or prefer any person on the basis of an inherent requirement of a job. 
To get a clear understanding of how our courts interpret section 6(2)(b) I think that Allpass v Mooikloof Estates (2011) 32 ILJ 1637(LC) is a very good place to start.

Inherent requirements of a job can only go so far legally!

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Dave A (29-Apr-13), tec0 (29-Apr-13)

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## adrianh

I back HR Solutions 100%.

What a total load of unadulterated horse crap!

Rather than get into an absurd debate regarding the merits of hiring a colour blind, quadraplegic, schizophrenic, dyslexic to pilot an Airbus A380 I would simply state that some people who frequent this forum are not only totally divorced from reality but are clearly out of their minds.

@HR Solutions - If you wonder why the government is infested with inappropriate, uneducated and unskilled people you have your answer. You may not employ somebody because that person has the appropriate skills and characterestics to perform a job, no, you have to employ the very first complete idiot who stumbles into your office because you may not discriminate against.....well any frigging moron.

I WILL WORK ALONE BEFORE I AM FORCED TO EMPLOY AN INCOMPETENT TWAT BECAUSE YOU LOT FEEL THAT I AM OBLIGED TO DO SO.

What an absolute absurd total frigging joke. I thought that I was out of my mind...ok, I am out of my mind but damn people, don't you think that your views are dangerous. 

You want to force me to employ a 4'ft buxom blonde who is incapable of intelligent thought to work alongside 20 burly foul mouthed dockyard crane operators who drink and beat one another up just for the hell of it - because I am not allowed to discriminate against anybody - ARE YOU DRUNK?

God Damn, get off the silly political correctness soapbox and face reality! - LIFE IS NOT FAIR AND NO MATTER HOW MUCH YOU LEGISLATE OR JUMP UP AND DOWN IT WILL NEVER BE FAIR.

I sure as hell hope that if I apply for a job as bikini model that I don't get hired (EVEN IF YOU LOT FEEL THAT IT IS UNFAIR TO ME) - @Vanash, tec0 - I can send you some pics of by g-string clad hairy ass then you can decide for yourself whether I should get the job! (NO - YOU HAVE TO GIVE ME THE JOB BECAUSE YOU MAY NOT DISCRIMINATE AGAINST MY BUTT HAIR)

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## Citizen X

> If a client wants a MAN (only) to do a specific job, because the company is doing for example undercover market research into the mens changing rooms at a gym, then the criteria would be for MEN only !!!!!!



This example is not entirely clear to me from a perspective of section 6(2)(b)! Let me explain as follows: It’s common cause that male genitors may clean male change rooms and female genitors may clean female change rooms. So both male and females are recruited and then quite simply male genitors are allocated to the male change room and the same applies to the female change room.
It’s unlikely that a gym will only have a need for undercover research into the men’s change room and not the females change room. They’ll probably apply the same principle as applied to genitors.

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tec0 (29-Apr-13)

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## tec0

Actually this will be my last post, so no need to contact Dave and scream at him. The dyslexic thing was actually aimed at your poor sentence that  led me to believe that you may have a son. Obviously you don't as you made that clear. But if you just added and "if" then I would never have thought that in the beginning. Me being me knows that... 

But you isolated only that little bit "and yes everyone that reads this will see it for what it is" and tried to belittle me again by pulling it out of context. 

As for your "friend/girlfriend and or "it": He is going to have a seriously bad time explaining himself once someone sees his posts. It is not legal in this country to discriminate especially if your responsibility is labour orientated. 

I actually did try to be nice there. Anyhow people will read and find see what I saw and that is South Africa is clearly heading the wrong way when it comes to oppression and discrimination. It is just sad because I know it is not going to stay with on the "smoking VS no-smoking" Soon it is going to be blatant discrimination against "almost any attribute" a person may have. It already started as seen the many posts of  HR Solutions.


Enjoy people.  :Smile:

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## Citizen X

> I back HR Solutions 100%.
> 
> 
> Rather than get into an absurd debate regarding the merits of hiring a colour blind, quadraplegic, schizophrenic, dyslexic to pilot an Airbus A380 I would simply state that some people who frequent this forum are not only totally divorced from reality but are clearly out of their minds.


There’s a reason why South Africa has a Ministry for woman and people with disabilities!

http://www.dwcpd.gov.za/

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## Citizen X

> Actually this will be my last post, so no need to contact Dave and scream at him.


A very good afternnon to you Tec0,

Why should this be your last post? You merely expressing your opinion as are all contributors to this thread..

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## tec0

> I am not going to have any further "discussions" with you regarding this thread.  You are ill advised.  You are making posts about the LAW without knowing what you are talking about !! You are even going so far as threatening another poster.


I never threatened you... I simply pointed out that someone in Human Recourses cannot go around posting stuff like that. You but both your clients and yourself at risk. Clearly the laws below will show you that I really was thinking towards your best interest there.

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## Citizen X

> And I am afraid to say, but some companies wont hire dyslexic's either ! Call it discrimination if you want to, call it anything you want to , it is a fact of life !


There’s a reason why South Africa has a Ministry for woman *and* people with disabilities!
http://www.dwcpd.gov.za/

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## HR Solutions

Thank you Vanash.  Yes we are operating fully within the law and its subsections.  It is the companies out there that set out the criteria for a job specification.  It is not our company that "discriminates".  We fill positions for our clients as per our clients needs. For eg.  a client requiring a male to go into a males changing room!  You cannot send a woman into a male changingroom.

Remember at the end the day, we have a data base full of potential candidates.  You submit keywords and it basically spits out the candidates for the specific job spec.  Therefore it is not discrimination.  We put forward 5 candidates suitable for a position.

With regards to HIV.  We actually have a guy working for us full time at home.  He is a fantastic person and worker, but is not discriminated because he may have an illness.

Perhaps sometimes a choice of words may be unsuitable in certain conversations.  I would never discriminate a person for what they are.  But I would soon see what kind of a worker they are, after a short period of time and based on past experience, therefore I would know what to look for when I hire the next person. With regards to our favourite colour argument in this country.  To me there is no colour difference.  You can either do the job or you cannot do the job.  You either have the qualification or you dont.  And by the way we check out every persons qualifcation with their permission.


PS.  Perhaps the way things are said sometimes do come out wrong.  I will give this to you tec.

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## tec0

> A very good afternnon to you Tec0,
> 
> Why should this be your last post? You merely expressing your opinion as are all contributors to this thread..


I am actually heading towards a point where "dealing with unreasonable people" is no longer a concern of mine. You can try and show someone compassion. But having a deep awareness of people and sympathy for another's suffering isn't what drive some posters here. Not just on this Thread but many others. 

It is the unwinnable  war between the wealthy and the poor. It is like they are not even living on the same planet anymore. I thought I could change people's minds and have tried my best for the last few years. It simply can't be done. 

So I will rather continue my fight trying to help those in real life then trying to convince others to give things a second thought. Clearly their minds are made up. But the people outside still needs someone help them navigate past the pitfalls.

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## adrianh

@Vanash, @tec

eish people....I just want to check - Are you acting in a Leon Schuster movie?

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## adrianh

@tec0

Please read this carefully:

THE WORLD OWES YOU NOTHING! You are free to be a victim all your life, that is your choice. 

I AM DIRT POOR - Why, because I AM THE A$$HOLE WHO DOESN"T KNOW HOW TO DO BUSINESS, not because the government owes me or because the wealthy owes me, NO, BECAUSE I NEED TO LEARN FOR MYSELF HOW TO DO BETTER.

I have no sympathy, nothing, squat, diddly. Get off your butt, stop whining and make a better life for yourself!

I can only shake my head and go; man o man...you've gotta be kidding me.

@vanash

I WILL NEVER EMPLOY ANYBODY WHO DOES NOT FIT MY PROFILE - I DON"T GIVE A ROYAL CONTINENTAL RATS LEFT NUT. 

This country will never be more than mediocre because that is it's mindset. Everybody deserves everything because they mangaged to get born. Sis man, no wonder nobody aspires to anything, everybody just get to sit on their asses and demand equality....welll f that. I teach my girls to be better, be faster, be brighter, work harder, run faster, attain more, take first place....why, because that is the way that it should be. My girls are not going to demand a job, they are going to study and they and going to work their asses off to be the best that they possibly can be, and then they will be better, and no I do not force them, they do it because they clearly understand that Leonado Da Vinci was a creative genius because he made it so, not because he dememded to be given a job because he was dyslexic.

What a disgusting outlook to have on life, an outlook of misery where the world owes you and you demand. I demand squat from anybody. I serve my customers and I serve my curiosity and I wish I had 20,000 hours a day to learn, to work, to teach and to do...and you know, they day that I feel sorry for myself is the day that I will personally hand you the keys to my piece of crap car so that you can drive over me. (I drive an Uno and I aspire to drive an Aston Martin but I sure ain't going to sulk because I don't have one. If I EARN one through my OWN inginuety then great, and if I don't well, so be it too)

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## Citizen X

> Perhaps sometimes a choice of words may be unsuitable in certain conversations. PS. Perhaps the way things are said sometimes do come out wrong. I will give this to you tec.


I think we all have this tendency to express ourselves inaccurately at times i.e. one wants to say a certain something and it doesn’t come out the way we initially intended! This is human nature. It holds true that we sometimes say things that can be taken out of context and even misinterpreted. *I think* that if Adrian, Tec0, yourself and myself were to meet in a bar(I don’t drink, just using this as an example), as strangers and strike up a conversation in which all these issues were raised, our approach would perhaps be different!

Regrettably, you are not in a position to not abide by your client’s recruitment brief(You don’t have this luxury, you need to abide by your client’s brief). Should the client’s brief be unreasonable, there’s really nothing that you can do in your capacity as a recruitment agent. You recruit who the client wants you to recruit according to their job specification and job description. Any dispute will then be between the employer and employee (for EEA purpose, a job applicant is the same as an employee).

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Dave A (29-Apr-13)

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## Citizen X

> I am actually heading towards a point where "dealing with unreasonable people" is no longer a concern of mine. You can try and show someone compassion. But having a deep awareness of people and sympathy for another's suffering isn't what drive some posters here. Not just on this Thread but many others. 
> 
> It is the unwinnable war between the wealthy and the poor. It is like they are not even living on the same planet anymore. I thought I could change people's minds and have tried my best for the last few years. It simply can't be done. 
> 
> So I will rather continue my fight trying to help those in real life then trying to convince others to give things a second thought. Clearly their minds are made up. But the people outside still needs someone help them navigate past the pitfalls.


You can still do so right here as we engaging in dialogue and not monologue

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## adrianh

@tec - you keep saying that it is a war between the wealthy and the poor. 

No, it is a war between those who create and those who demand. I sure am not wealthy, and I create, my brother is a multi-millionnare and he creates (I am not at war with him, to the contrary, I aspire to be a brother like him), others on the other hand whether they are rich or poor simply demand that they be given a LIFE on a platter because God had the audacity to bring them to life.

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## Blurock

So from smoking we are now into HR and discrimination? We are going round and round because we all want to win this debate, regardless of the good or bad arguments raised. Well here is something to think about...



I also concur with adrian, mediocrity does not result in greatness. Mediocrity breeds zombies that do everything at half pace and sleep on the job. For an example just look at your parliamentarians and any government department. 

Businesses that operate like this, does not last long. That is why I prefer to choose who I want to employ and what qualifications and personality traits that person should have. I want to deal with successful people. I want employees who have ambition and want to improve their lives and those of their families and the people around them. 

Only if we strive for excellence will we once again make South Africa a great country.  :Wink:

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## adrianh

@vanash, @tec0 - you guys made me realize somthing fundamental today...and for that I thank you.

I realized that humanity will fight tooth and nail to be mediocre and to aspire to nothing of consequence. You made me realize that to do battle with humanity in their quest to accomplish this noble goal is,well, not only futile but also rather tiresome.

Today is a wonderful day because I am free to create, to be my own Leonado Da Vinci and to celebrate the fact that I honestly and whole heartedly don't give a rats a$$ about anybody who chooses mediocrity.

...and further, I will hire whom I choose to work with me because I am not willing to work with anybody who feels that that have the God given right to demand the fruits of my labour.

Oh, and lest I forget: I WILL NOT HIRE SMOKERS! .......sue me or suck on that!

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## Dave A

My goodness, it really does pay to be patient sometimes. After a lengthy patch of pretty anal mudslinging, we finally get a few pages of... intelligent *argument*.
(I prefer intelligent debate personally, but sometimes an argument reveals stuff that debate doesn't).

As things stand, I think we've reached a point where the subject has been well thrashed, the main protaganists have made posts worthy of closing arguments, we've had some very sensible points of order made from the sidelines, and it's now time for the reader to take value where they find it.

For the second time in the history of TFSA, I believe this is the right time to declare - thread closed.

(At least for the next few days. I think we could all do with a breather).

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Blurock (29-Apr-13), Citizen X (30-Apr-13), flaker (30-Apr-13), IanF (30-Apr-13), KimH (30-Apr-13), Mike C (30-Apr-13)

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