# Social Category > General Chat Forum >  E-tolling or E Thief?

## Citizen X

*According to Dr Roelof Botha you will only be saving in many ways when you are in essence tolled. In fact according to him you will even be able to generate R8.84 for every rand that you spend! There are other benefits as well, you’ll save so much time that you’ll be able to spend more time with your family!*
*Here’s where Dr Botha’s spin goes horribly wrong. You are currently using those very roads that you will be charged for using at a later date. You using those roads now, only you not currently paying anything! Do you find that you currently have more time to spend with your family? You find that you spending less time in the traffic? Since you using the very same roads that you will be paying for using in the near future, are you currently making R8.84 rand just for using the roads for nothing at the moment?*
*The only difference going forward is that you will be paying for using the very same roads that you are currently using without paying anything! So how on earth will you be saving or how on earth will this be beneficial to you when you were paying nothing for using these roads yesterday and today you paying something? There is no way this logic will work with South Africans.* 
*This is his exact words:*
*"Go to the trouble of calculating the time that you are likely to save, or probably are already saving, by using the Gauteng Freeway Improvement Project as opposed to if it had never occurred, and take that time saving and place a value on it in terms of what you can earn if you were to be productive or how fit you could become if you go to the gym or maybe improving the relationships with the rest of your family and spending more time with them."*
*Dr Botha we are using the very same roads today that we will be paying for tomorrow and there’s no added benefit.* *The only difference is that we will be paying for using these roads going forward**. Nothing you say makes any sense. How do you go from a situation of not paying anything at all for driving on these very same roads to a situation where tomorrow you pay for using these very same roads???How can you save when all the trucks that transport consumer goods will be paying tolls? It's common sense that this will cause the price of food to go up!!!*

----------


## adrianh

Come on, now you're spinning it it the opposite direction. He is simply saying that the money that was spent to upgrade the roads saves you time and money. Sanrail is trying to get somebody to foot the bill.

----------


## Blurock

> Come on, now you're spinning it it the opposite direction. He is simply saying that the money that was spent to upgrade the roads saves you time and money. Sanrail is trying to get somebody to foot the bill.


and the profits are being paid to a company in Austria in stead of a fund to maintain the roads. :Slap:

----------


## Citizen X

*Here’s my gripe with economists in general: Despite the litany of things an economist can say, to date they unable to solve the problem of unlimited human needs with limited resources. They unable to solve unemployment problems, they fail dismally in solving the problem with famine. The leading economists failed to forecast the global economic crisis and take proactive steps to prevent such a crisis. So, please enlighten me, why exactly do we have economists? What is it that they in actual fact do that is beneficial? If you a mechanic by profession you should be able to a fix a car, if you an economists you should be able to fix the economy. Compiling reports and saying that this study or the other reveals a certain set of facts that can be disputed by other economists helps nothing and no one. Besides in general economists are not unanimous on the main economic issues. They all have different opinions!*
*According to Dr Botha, you’ll either be able to generate R8.84 for every rand you spend on etolling or you’ll be able to save money and/or time. Now here’s where this logic really does fail. You are currently driving past all the Sanrail structures, it’s only that when you drive past these structures and effectively use that road you not e charged or e tolled, you don’t pay anything. So by implication if you’ll be able to generate R8.84 for every rand you spend on etolling then how much more can you save or generate now when you are paying nothing?*

----------


## Justloadit

So Vanash, according to the economists, we should have more money in the bank cos of the savings we are having currently by not having to pay eTolls yet.

Well you know what, I aint seen it, in fact the balance gets lower every month.

What a load of bull they feed us.

----------


## Citizen X

Absolutely, in fact, they provide that when you do actually start paying for every rand that you spend on etolling you'll either make or save R8.84. You will be put in such a nice position that you'll have more time to spend with your family and even some more time for the gym.
From what is out there publically many are saving that you'll pay about R600 per month. I don't know how accurate this is. If we assume that you do pay R600 per month and we accept the savings formulae then you essentially making R5304 or saving R5304 per month. In principal I'm not completely against pay a toll on the basis that monies will be used maintain and improve the infrastructure. I am soley against the amounts of money we'll be charged. They should charge everybody a flat rate of R50 per month. Eventually they'll make the money spent on the roads.

----------


## adrianh

I am watching a rerun of 3rd degree debate on etolling between Dr Botha & Vavi. I must agree with Vanash, the spin is absolutely absurd. The good doctor is unable to quantify the R8.. figure and all he does is refer back to his 'so called' study without showing how that figure was derived. 

Ok, I concede, the good doctor is smoking his socks.

----------


## Citizen X

The tragic turn of events for us as South African's is the clear message we getting from Government i.e. Pay or else.! So this will be a grudge payment, which we really don't want to make but becuase of the consequences of not paying, everyone will pay...

----------


## wynn

Just out of curiosity, how much does an articulated vehicle carrier pay and would it pay to ride onto the back of one at the beginning of and roll off at the end of the toll you use???

I smell a business opportunity!!!

----------

Citizen X (09-Apr-12)

----------


## Citizen X

*You exactly right with the business opportunity!* *Since there are economist out there that will argue that you'll save and/or generate R8.84 for every rand you spend on etolling, then I have a business/investment offer for you! Any economist can simply buy my etolling package, i.e. they pay my monthly etolling fee and in return they get to save and/or generate R8.84!!* *How can you turn this opportunity down and for good measure I'll also throw in some extra minutes for you to spend at the gym!
*

----------


## Justloadit

> Just out of curiosity, how much does an articulated vehicle carrier pay and would it pay to ride onto the back of one at the beginning of and roll off at the end of the toll you use???
> 
> I smell a business opportunity!!!


What will be interesting, is that the eTag works wirelessly, so effectively the system would pick up all the vehicles on the roll back that have eTags installed, the number plate recognition system, is a back up for when you do not have an eTag.

Now prove that you were not using the toll road.

----------


## Citizen X

*Sanrail and your bank account? I stand to be corrected on this, but it is my personal understanding that Sanrail will have direct access to your bank account, not just a debit order facility but direct access i.e. to go into your acount at a whims notice or no notice at all and simply deduct whatever is necessary.* *If this is indeed the case, then this put make Sanrail the worst creditor we've ever had in South African history as no other creditor has such powers.** I get that this is about money, we must basically pay or if we ommit to then we effectively breaking the law!
*

----------


## Citizen X

My brother inlaw sent me an interesting email about Sanrail doing the rounds. It does provide another perspective. See attached PDF....

----------


## Citizen X

*De Lange v Smuts 1998(3) SA(CC)*
*1.     * *When the notion of Sanrail being granted law enforcement powers made the public rounds, it immediately struck a cord with me. It brought to recollection a leading case wherein a creditor was given law enforcement powers and the constitutional court ruled that it was in essence unconstitutional for a creditor to have law enforcement powers based on the separation of powers doctrine;*
*2.     * *Owing to the fallibility of human memory I could not recall the name of the case or the LLB subject that it belonged to, so started to look through my old textbooks and notes, and just like it goes when you looking for something, the thing you looking for will be in the last place you look. I found it! It rightfully belongs to the subject Constitutional law;*
*3.     * *There was a subsection of the insolvency act that provided that if a person was called to appear before a meeting of creditors and this person either refused to be sworn in or to produce a required book or document or answer any question the presiding officer could commit such a person to prison!*
*4.     * *The central idea is that a non judicial officer(someone not of the courts) cannot commit a person to prison. The separation of powers allow for the Judiciary, The Executive and the legislature. Judge Ackerman concluded that because non judicial governmental officers lack the independence of the judiciary, non judicial officers cannot commit an uncooperative witness to prison;*
*5.     * *The situation does somewhat change when you give a non judicial officer(Sanrail) powers of the executive or judiciary which is what is happening now. If Sanrail are given law enforcement powers it simply means that your creditor, the person who you owe money to can now wave a legal stick to you. The day this happens this will be a day that will live in infamy. Sanrail could prove to be the worst creditor youve ever known!!!*
*6.     * *Judge Sachs agreed with Judge Ackermanns majority judgment, but on separate grounds.  He evaluated the constitutionality of the subsection within the context of separation of powers rather than that of freedom rights.  He then applied the principle that only judicial officers should have the power to punish misconduct or penalise recalcitrance by means of imprisonment, and concluded that the subsection contravenes the principle of separation of powers as contemplated by the Constitution because it entrusts authority to order incarceration to persons who are not judicial officers.  Judge Sachs consequently agrees with Judge Ackermanns distinction, which allows magistrates to order committal to prison and denies that power to non-judicial government officials.*

*In his majority judgment Judge Ackermann held that the subsection concerned is unconstitutional only to the extent that it authorises a presiding officer who is not a magistrate to issue a warrant committing an examinee at a creditors meeting to prison.*

----------


## Citizen X

*As at todays date we all using the toll roads. We just not being e-tolled as yet. Now if one postulates that in the future when you e-tolled youll either save and/or generate R8.84 for every rand you pay, how much more shouldnt you be making today when you are paying nothing? Did you have some extra time today for the gym as a direct result of using the toll roads? Did you have extra time to spend with your family today as a direct result of the toll roads? Did you get to work any faster today as a direct result of the toll roads? The reality is that the traffic is still as bad as it always was and will only get worse1 Think of it like this: the quantity of road users will continue to increase not decrease. Students finishing university and starting their first jobs will be buying cars, these extra cars will be on the road, this will worsen traffic, not make it any better. The number of new road users will simply increase and increase*
*So my lucrative offer stands: Anyone that believes that they will be saving and/or making R8.84 for every rand spent on e-tolling can please buy my e-tolling rights i.e you pay my monthly e-toll bill and in return you can then save and/or make that R8.84 for every rand spentIf you not saving and/or making money due to using the toll gates today, then, please answer me this: How on earth will you be saving and/or generating money when you pay????*

----------


## Citizen X

My brother inlaw sent me an email today which included an attachment(A letter from Botha Attorneys) regarding the etolling debacle. Makes for very interesting reading! Botha Attorneys: *I hold you in high regard!!!!**See attached
Yesterday,* *I used 2 higways during peak traffic, the M1 south and the M1 North. The traffic is far worse as far as I'm concerned. There's been next to know development on these 2 highways. The only noticeable additions are the Sanrail structures to etoll you. I also did not have extra time for the gym, nor did I have extra time for my family and I most certainly did not make any money whatsoever. As more road users enter our roads, traffic will only get worse and worse, it will never improve...*

----------


## IanF

Vanash
I heard that Sanral have agreed to change their terms to be in line with the consumer protection act. But these have not yet been published. Aren't Sanral just following big business with totally one sided contracts, that is why government has stepped in with consumer protection act.
Anyway I have no intention of registering. Terms like this scare the sh1t out of 11.	


> The registered motorist further agrees that failure to make payment in respect of an E-Toll transaction in terms of the terms & conditions may result in criminal proceedings against themselves.


 This with the totally unreasonable power hikes and petrol hikes is making SA become just another failed African country.
My feeling is that this will be scrapped or the tolls reduced to a 10c per KM basis, the management in SANRAL must be changed to public servants who serve the public and not corporate executives who are try to scr3w us.

----------


## Citizen X

*Ian,
I think we've reached a tragic stage in our history. The message by government and Sanrall is clear: Pay or else! I agree that petrol, electricity and various other commodities have seen major price hikes. My concern is for the working mom and dad that have a budget that barely balances. Their employers are not going to give them an increase in line with inflation and other short term financial strains. On first glance it does indeed appear that Sanrall are following big business with one sided contracts. The main difference is other creditors don’t have law enforcement capabilities. You have a bond with XYZ bank, you pay diligently but suddenly you unable to pay. XYZ follows the typical legal route debt collection and summons respectively but XYZ bank don’t have law enforcement abilities. A creditor should never be granted with law enforcement powers. It's noteworthy that etolling only applies to us Gauteng...
In principal I’m for the paying of tolls for the maintenance and improvement of our roads. We all realize that quality roads make for a safer journey, we all realize that potholes are intolerable. My gripe is simply this: The amount they want per kilometer is unreasonable. If it’s about recovering the monies spent on this project, make a flat rate of R50 per month for all road users. Eventually they will recover this expenditure and also make a profit. I have not done any qualitative or quantitative research on attitudes of South Africans but my primary purpose as an evangelist takes me to many informal settlements and the vast majority of Black individuals I come into contact with tell me that they have simply had enough of the ANC, that they have lost confidence in the ANC and perhaps more importantly, they not actually even concerned with the national or provincial spheres of government but rather the local level. They provide that not only is service delivery at an all time low but that they treated very badly by the local city council, the local clinic, the home affairs department. The vast majority of individuals that I have spoken to in the informal settlements make it very clear that they not fools and will not vote for the ANC ever again. So whenever that nurse at the local clinic treats someone without dignity and respect they simply tell themselves this nurse is the ANC. I am not going to vote for the ANC again!!! I was a die hard supporter of the ANC(not member, I hold no political party membership), but I can tell you just as clear as night follows day I will never vote for the ANC ever again!!!!!
**On the other hand we’ve reached a positive stage in our history where several interest groups who otherwise would not be unified on a single issue now share the same contempt for Sanral i.e. DA, COSATU and AFRIFORUM. We have Sanrall to thank for this positive development. I figure that the days of voting for a party on the mere basis of being the same racial group is slowly but surely changing i.e If there’sa party ABC who has a majority of Indian members but are riddled with corruption, maladministration and reverse racism, I’m certainly not going to vote for them on the arbitrary and frivolous ground that I am also Indian so for that reason I must simply vote for the them NO!!My comments that many Black individuals that I have personally come across choose not to vote for the ANC simply because they are the liberation party and have a predominant Black politician membership should be view in this context.*

----------


## MGM

"or maybe improving the relationships with the rest of your family". 

Sounds like the doctor's got family issues.

----------


## murdock

how are they going to manage the motorcycles...number plate on the back and sometimes small

----------


## Citizen X

Murdock, there are so many unanswered questions. I have alot of good friends in the tow truck business. I wonder how etolling will affect them.....

----------


## IanF

Vanash,
Politics is a dirty business and my view always vote for the opposition so that one party does not have the unfettered power that the ANC has now. Lets hope this anger spills over to the elections.

----------


## Citizen X

Ian,
Your view has merit! *We need a strong opposition.* No South Africa should contend with corruption, nepotism, maladministration and this general notion that person who hold prominent political oppostions are absolute. They not. They subject to the rule of law. I'm awaiting the next election with much anticipation. I really want to see what impact poor service delivery, nepotism, corruption and maladministartion will have on the seats the ANC gets in Parliament. I watched Carte Blanche with great interest this Sunday. You have a sitting crime intelligence boss who has many allegations and unanswered questions hanging over him i.e. why was charges dropped alternatively why did the NPA not prosecute. According to Carte Blanche, this so called slush/secret fund that should be used for bona fide crime intelligence work is paying salaries to several of the crime intelligence bosses family members. The only thing that qualified them to be covert crime intelligence agents is the fact that they family of the crime boss. How can everyone just let this go? Surely, there's a job description and specification for covert operatives. I cannot accept that the crime bosses family had the appropriate training, experience and qualifications to hold such position. Ther are many police officers and security personnel who would be far more competent than the crime bosses family. South Africans of all race groups are indignant of this.

----------


## AndyD

> 19.	By registering for an E Tag account the onus is placed on the motorist to change the motor vehicle details linked to the E Toll account when you lose possession of the vehicle or where ownership in respect of the vehicle is transferred to a third party.  Failure to do so will mean that the motorist will remain liable for any E-Toll charges incurred.


I can see this going the way of the TV licences.....the Hotel California of administrative systems.....
'_We are programmed to receive.
You can check-out any time you like,
But you can never leave_'

I'm also predicting a logrithmic increase in licence plate cloning.

Being in Cape Town I can just sit back and watch the fun and games.....for now at least. Don't get me wrong I wouldn't have a problem with subsidising the roads if it was sensible figures and done through a petrol tax but this system is flawed from the ground up, it's just farcical. Even Cape Town isn't exactly wine and roses with toll roads, the Chapmans Peak / Entilini debacle (probably the most expensive toll road in the southern hemisphere on a Rand/Km basis) costs me 10-15 minutes some evenings on the way home having to go the long route around.

----------


## murdock

i believe it is just the start...once this is lauched in jhb...it will be affecting everyone sooner than you think...and you thought paying over R12 a litre for petrol was bad...and i thought that mad max film was just a movie...could it become a reality in my life time...seen a lot of changes TV...computers...internet...cellphones...i could even still be around to see the world war over water.

----------


## Nickolai Naydenov

Botha Attorneys

Attorneys at Law/Prokureurs
*

Specializing in Corporate Debt Recovery
*56A Shortmarket Street, Newlands, Johannesburg, 2092.* P.O. Box/Posbus 508, Newtown, 2113
*Tel:* 087 830 2255* Fax/Faks:011 477 0615
*DX 281, JHB
*E-mail: deon@bothaattorneys.co.za
*Deon Botha (B.Jur LLB)
*
Our Ref:**************** D. Botha/jb/
Your Ref:************** *
11th April 2012

E-TOLLING – GENERAL COMMENTS

This communication is not a legal opinion in any way whatsoever and only forwarded to yourselves for comment and for further discussion.
*
As you are all aware, motorist in Gauteng will be paying “toll fees” for the use of the new upgraded Gauteng freeways, to fund the Gauteng freeway development project.
*
Instead of motorist being billed monthly and receiving a statement for the usage of the E-Toll roads and which usage is linked to your motor vehicle license plate number (VLN), Sanral is currently pushing and encouraging motorist to rather purchase an E-Tag and to register as an E-Tag user, or to register as a VLN user.
In return for purchasing and registering as a E-Tag user / VLN user they promise that motorists may then qualify and be entitled to discounts, be categorized as either a E-Tag user or a registered VLN user to be entitled to discounted tolls.* Should you elect not to register with Sanral, you will however not be entitled to any discounts or lower tariffs.

At first glace and when comparing the normal toll rates, to that of the discounted toll rates when you elect to register, the normal and reasonable uninformed motorist would be guided only by the discounts when signing up for registration.

After perusal of Sanral Terms & Conditions however, and which must be signed prior to registration, you will immediately note that the advantages of registering as an E-Toll user is very limited and comes with various onerous and one sided terms and obligations favoring only Sanral.* Many clauses in their terms and conditions are being viewed by ourselves as well as other institutions as being either unlawful or in contravention of the Consumer Protection Act.*

DISADVANTAGES FOR MOTORISTS WHO ELECT TO REGISTER AS AN E-TAG OR VLN USER

1.**************** The discounts promised, and categorization as a registered E Tag user will not apply to all toll roads.

2.**************** The onus is placed on the registered E-Toll user to establish their user categorization and/or the tolls applicable to a specific E-Toll road.* The motorist can obtain the information from Sanral website.
3.**************** A motorist who registers and thereafter fails to comply with any of Sanral’s prescribed terms and conditions, will be deemed to be an E-Road violator and their account can be referred to a collection agency called “Violations Processing Centre” which is a division of Sanral itself. (See paragraph 2 of Sanral terms & conditions).*

4.**************** Motorist who register will be billed and will be liable for toll transactions recorded according to the user VLN or E-Tag.

5.**************** Motorist who register agree and understand that their liability to incur toll when the motor vehicle passes a tolling point and that the amount of toll is calculated with reference to the tolling point and not with reference to the KM traveled before the user reaches the tolling point.

6.**************** Motorist who register are given 3 payment options for topping up their E Toll accounts namely, Pre-Paid Accounts, Manual Top Up Payments, Automatic Top Up Payments, all associated with the risk taking into account that you are contracting with a wholly owned State Company where corruption is at the order of the day.

7.**************** Motorists who register further agrees and undertakes to ensure at all times that there is sufficient funds in the E-Toll account and should you fail to make sufficient payments into your E-Toll account will give Sanral the right to hand over your account to VPC for collection purposes.

8.**************** Motorists who register and who elect to link their E-Toll account to a credit card bank account, debit card further authorizes Sanral to:
*********** a.**** debit the motorists account to fund the E-Toll account for Toll fees incurred when raised;
*********** b.**** undertakes to ensure that sufficient funds are available in the account;
*********** c.***** places the duty on the motorist to notify Sanral of bank account detail changes.
*
9.**************** A registered motorist undertakes and agrees to settle all E-Toll transactions within any period required by Sanral.
10.*********** Should the registered motorist fail to make payments when required to do so, Sanral will have the right without notice to the motorists to suspend the motorist account, to red list the E-Tag and to hand the account over for collection to VPC.

11.*********** The registered motorist further agrees that failure to make payment in respect of an E-Toll transaction in terms of the terms & conditions may result in criminal proceedings against themselves.

12.*********** By registering the motorist agrees and understands that a statement of charges will be available on the E-Toll website for download and that should hardcopies be requested, that Sanral will have the right to charge for furnishing such copies.

13.*********** Registered motorists agree that any payment made to Sanral will be utilized against the oldest charge to the most recent.

14.*********** Registered motorist E-Toll account will be suspended if not used for a period of 12 months and will have to be reactivated. (at a charge).

15.*********** Registered motorist agrees further that Sanral will not be held responsible for any loss or damage a motorist may suffer as a result of incorrect banking details being provided by the user and captured by Sanral except for instances where Sanral or its agent acted with gross negligence.

16.*********** Registered motorists agree to be liable for additional fees and attorney charges which may be incurred by Sanral in the collection of outstanding E-Toll amounts.

17.*********** Registered motorists further consent to the onerous provision that it will be deemed that the fees charged by Sanral are correct and the onus is placed on the motorist to prove that such charges are incorrect.

18.*********** Registered motorists will not be provided with a receipt when they proceed through the tolling point.* A tax invoice may however be requested but then at the expense of the motorist.

19.*********** By registering for an E Tag account the onus is placed on the motorist to change the motor vehicle details linked to the E Toll account when you lose possession of the vehicle or where ownership in respect of the vehicle is transferred to a third party.* Failure to do so will mean that the motorist will remain liable for any E-Toll charges incurred.

20.*********** By registering the motorist acknowledges and accepts that by purchasing an E Tag and registering same does not in itself necessary result in a valid passage on an E Toll Road and that you may be prevented by Sanral to continue driving on the E Road.

21.*********** By registering, the motorist agrees and accepts that Sanral will be entitled and without notice to the motorist to suspend an E Toll account and to Red List an E Tag, for failure of any of Sanral terms & conditions.* Should the motorist later prove that there was no transgression of Sanral terms & conditions, they will have no claim against Sanral as in terms of the agreement such claims are waived by the motorist in favor of Sanral.

22.*********** Whilst ownership in the E Tag and E Tag holder remains the property of Sanral the risk of loss, theft or damage passes to you upon delivery.

23.*********** By registering, the motorist irrevocably authorizes Sanral or its duly authorized agents to obtain from any institutions where they may have an account or any credit bureau any information concerning themselves.

24.*********** By registering the motorist further acknowledge and accepts that Sanral may unilaterally update and amend their terms & conditions and that the motorist has consented to such amendments and has agreed to abide by such amended terms & conditions.*

25.*********** By registering for an E Tag, the motorist is affording Sanral a blanket indemnity for any wrong doing, loss or damage that the motorist may have suffered by using the E road.

26.*********** A registered motorist further agrees to an unlawful provision in consenting to the jurisdiction of the Magistrate’s Court of Pretoria in respect of all matters arising out of the terms & conditions.

A copy of Sanral terms and conditions is attached hereto for your ease of reference.

ADVANTAGES FOR MOTORIST WHO ELECTS NOT TO REGISTER AND RATHER PAY THE NORMAL TOLL RATE TARIFFS
1.**************** Motorist will be billed for the use of the E Toll, without automatically being liable for such use, in the event of receiving incorrect readings from Sanral, theft, cloning of number plates, or the cloning of a motorist personal information etc

2.**************** The onus will be on Sanral to prove that it was the motorist’s vehicle that traveled the recorded distances.

3.**************** Payments will be made and effected by the motorist into a Sanral bank account.

4.**************** Sanral’s collection division (VPC) will have no jurisdiction over non registered motorists.

5.**************** Motorists will be entitled to monthly statements without any charge.

6.**************** Motorists would be entitled to dictate how payments be allocated in respect of Toll road usage.

7.**************** Motorists who do not register would not automatically be liable for additional fees or attorney charges.

8.**************** The onus remains on Sanral to prove that the fees charged and for which the motorist is debited are correct.

9.**************** Until an exemption notice is published motorist will be entitled to a receipt when paying for E Toll road usage.

10.*********** In the event of a dispute with Sanral regarding outstanding charges, Sanral will not have the right to prevent the non registered motorist from continued use of the E Toll road.
*
11.*********** Losses suffered by non registered motorist can be recovered by way of civil action.
12.*********** Sanral will not have the right to have access to any private information of a non registered motorist.

13.*********** Sanral will not have the right to amend any terms & conditions without the motorist agreeing to such amendments.

14.*********** In the event of litigation, Sanral will have to issue a civil Summons or proceed criminally against the motorist in terms of the Criminal Procedure Act and will be forced to litigate against the motorist in a Magistrate’s Court who has jurisdiction over that motorist. (It is unlawful to consent to the jurisdiction of a specific Magistrate’s Court).


The above comment is made and must be read in conjunction with various sections of the National Credit Act, and the Consumer Protection Act.* Should you have any further queries please do not hesitate to contact writer hereof.

----------

Blurock (20-Apr-12)

----------


## Citizen X

_"You can check-out any time you like,
But you can never leave"_

*Tragic, tragic, tragic, but you exactly right. Our relationship with Sanrall will be till death do us part(or will , do you reckon they'll sue your deceased estate??)*

----------


## Citizen X

*I would sincerely like to know how Sanrall’s etolling will marginalize certain categories of people: Pensioners(Pensioner get R1200 per month: Are they now precluded from using the highways on the basis that they poor? I submit that pensioners should be exempt); Unemployed people: We have a high rate of unemployment in South Africa. A person may be unemployed for several reasons, retrenchment, liquidation of the company they worked for, dismissal, unemployed due to illness( I submit that these people should be exempt from etolling.*

----------


## IanF

This saga gets more interesting. With COSATU apparently pulling the strings on this and getting a delay. How will this end I reckon a dedicated fuel levy in Gauteng!

----------


## Citizen X

*Good morning Ian,
1. I'm personally happy with a reasonable fuel levy or a flat rate of R50 per month for every Gauteng road user. If they claiming that money will be recovered, collecting R50 per month from every single Gauteng road user will achieve this. They may not get their money over night but they will eventually get it!
I know alot of government pensioners in and around my neigbourhood who are literally terrified of a prospect where you can't use certain roads because you can't afford it...You've worked all your live, you now in your 70's. You do have a car, because you've paid it off during your working life, you now in a predicament where you only have R1200 at your disposal. Paying for petrol is bad enough and now you have to contend with etolling!
**1.      Firstly I’m aware that the rights in the bill of rights are limited in terms of section 36 of The Constitution  of 1996;*
*2.      That being said etolling will marginalize certain people i.e pensioners and unemployed people who also have the followings Constitutions Rights,*
*3.     * *Every citizen has a right to freedom of movement and residence: This right will be infringed by etolling especially in a case where a person can’t afford it**-*
*"21 Freedom of movement and residence* 
*(1) Everyone has the right to freedom of movement.* 
*(2) Everyone has the right to leave the Republic.* 
*(3) Every citizen has the right to enter, to remain in and to reside anywhere in, the Republic.* 
*(4) Every citizen has the right to a passport."*

----------


## Blurock

Interesting article by Kelvin Kemm in Engineering News.

I quote;"Finance minister Pravin Gordhan announced in his budget that the National treasury would contribute R5.75 BILLION to the cost of improved roads. However, it appears all that money will go to Austria within FOUR years. Those of us who get to drive in Austria can feel good that Austrian roads are particularly funded by folks in Gauteng."

Why does the general public not know that we are paying our toll fees to Austria and not for the maintenance of our roads? Why is nobody objecting to this? 

I am all for toll fees to pay for maintenance and new roads, but NOT to fund some foreign shareholders! :Rant1:

----------

Citizen X (28-Apr-12)

----------


## Citizen X

Yes, South Africans should be plain angry that foreign shareholders are benefiting..You know, I would like to have seen the expression on the faces of our public servants when they sold us out! Did they have a good laugh? Was there a lavish supper following the etolling decision? I would also like to know what was the exact process from conception to completion of etolling? I suspect that etolling will be rolled out to all provinces and that Gauteng is just the test baby. I think the Government realised that had they rolled etolling out in the entire country South Africans would brought this country to a standstill. The government must learn the lesons of the Arab awakeing i.e. Egypt and Libiya when your people say NO, listen to your people, don't sell your people out!!!!

----------


## Citizen X

*"E THIEF."
**I love our South African people for many reasons. Our robust demonstrations and strikes is just one reason. The creativity of the content on placards is plain classic, South Affrican style! On 403, enews today, it was reported that etolling is suspended pending review. Part of the footage included demonstrations against etolling. One placard stood out for me and said it all! “ E Thief!”*

----------


## Blurock

Power to the people! No to e-tolling. The people have spoken! :Clap:

----------

Citizen X (30-Apr-12)

----------


## adrianh

Hmmm...for how long will there be no e-tolls, don't kid yourself, they'll get the money from us one way or another...40c for petrol or something or the other....we may have won a little superficial battle but they are winning the war (we are just to doff to realize it)

----------


## Citizen X

*With the benefit of restful hindsight I find as follows:-*
*1.      Failed South African projects that have manifested in huge financial loss is really nothing new to South Africa.Pebble Bed Modular Reactor (Pty) Ltd. We lost a good few millions here, it wasn’t a big deal. We moved on fairly quickly;*
*2.      White elephant is defined as,”a. A rare, expensive possession that is a financial burden to maintain.b. Something of dubious or limited value.2. An article, ornament, or household utensil no longer wanted by its owner.3. An endeavor or venture that proves to be a conspicuous failure.” The Sanral structures can become a good white elephant. We can use them for Christmas lights and decorations in Decmeber;*
*3.      Etolling was just sprung on South Africans from nowhere over night! All of a sudden we began hearing things like, “a road is an expensive thing,’ “Etolling is here to stay,” “etolling is a reality,”*
*4.      The cost is only 32 Billion not much when you consider the various other South Africans initiatives that failed dismally. Let this project also be a failure. The Department of Transport doesn’t even have to write to that Austrian company, they can just quickly phone them and tell them, it didn’t work, the people of South Africa don’t want etolling and that they much just write off that 32 billion(global economic crisis).*
*5.      The average South African is now aware that the intention was to roll etolling out to all provinces but Gauteng was the test pilot. The average South African now has many questions: Who brokered this deal? How did that Austrian company get the contract? Who was paid what and when?*
*“E THIEF,”*

----------


## Blurock

Legal practisioners have roayal time in this country. I wish someone would add up the wasted legal cost of all the municipalities and government departments eminating from fraud, corruption and badly planned projects, non delivery of services, suspended officials still drawing salaries etc.

No wonder they are finding new ingenious ways of taxing the public to fund their lavish lifestyles. The next frontier is WATER. Water will be taxed and price increases thqat may put ESCOM to shame are in the pipeline. Already in Durban the municipality has done away with the free allocation of water AND they have increased the billing rate. :Detective:

----------


## Citizen X

Selebi's legal team was paid some 7 million. I was of the understanding that the State would pay for it on condition that he was acquited failing which he must pay for it..not sure what's happening there..ther's just a deafening silence from the selebi family*.."My hands are clean, finish and klaar!" "Dis lekker in Suid Afrika, cos, Toronto is too blady far"*

----------


## Citizen X

*OUTA, words will always remain  very little reward for what we do, in all sincerity I say thank you! I hold you in high regard OUTA, I commend you!*
*1.     There have been absurd statements regarding motorists and etolling making the public rounds such as ‘if you own a car, then you can afford etolling,” and “If you can’t afford etolling then you shouldn’t be driving a motor vehicle, you should be using public transport,” and “Public transport is efficient and effective.”*

*2.     On what premise they base this assertion is simply beyond me.  Many Pensioners, unemployed people, retrenched individuals and University students do have motor vehicles. It may not be a luxury Sedan but it is a road worthy vehicle. The aforementioned will never be able to afford etolling! In the very first instance, sanral and the department of transport should have exempted certain categories of people from paying toll fees;*
*3.     OUTA’s website is extremely informative on this matter www.outa.co.za*
*4.     The following was obtained from their website*
*“Who is OUTA?*
*OUTA stands for Opposition to Urban Tolling Alliance. It is an association of other bodies, largely involved in the motoring and transport industry, who share a common view about the wrongs of urban tolling. These bodies have joined together to tackle this matter through a formalized legal challenge, the details of which will be shared on this web site as and when the papers are lodged.* 
*Interesting points to note*
*A.    How may KM were improved? 185km*
*B.    How many toll gantries were built? 49, average spacing is 185km/49=3.77km*
*C.    How many lanes were added? Effectively 1 extra lane*
*D.    Was this a new road? No – it was merely an upgrade and maintenance of existing road.*
*E.    The cost of the road improvements? R20b*
*F.     Will you pay VAT on the e-toll (tax on tax) Yes”*

*5. * *   I reiterate we’ve have many failed projects in South Africa, we lost many millions on these failed projects. There’s no reason why etolling shouldn’t fail. It should fail and then we simply just move on as is customary in South Africa when a major project fails. We can always invite that Austrian company for supper or something like that. The department of transport should simply phone that company and tell them to write off the debt due to the global economic crisis.*

----------


## Citizen X

*1. Representations which are in actual fact misrepresentations: Public Servants are putting forward this misrepresentation: Why must the rest of South Africa pay for Gauteng roads? Yes, on first glance to the untrained eye this may indeed appear to be a valid argument! Problem with this proposition: There is intention(dolus) to roll out etolling to all provinces!!! Sanral and that Austrian company must simply realize that South Africans are not fools! Pinocchio, your nose is growing!(We want all the relevant information as to how etolling came about, who was paid what and when, how did this Austrian company get the contract, your true intentions with rolling etolling to other provinces and shady 'arms deal 'like transactions etc)They thought they’ll first roll it out in Gauteng and swiftly deal with Gauteng uprisings! The South African people have spoken : No to etolling!*
*2. The next misrepresentation is : who will pay that 32 billion? How and why is it a problem in current South African history to pay alternatively to loose money? It has never been a problem in the past to loose money i.e. The disgraceful pebble nuclear project. It failed, money was lost, we moved on! Etolling should also fail and will also move on just like we moved on with the pebble nuclear shocking shambles of a disgraceful failure.* 
*3. I stand to be corrected on this, I’m not sure if the following have factual merit(I’m also aware that hearsay is exceptionally inadmissible!: I have heard people talking about the possibility of Austrian Nationals been given Law enforcement powers here in South Africa to police the etolling system! If this is the case, and again I state that I stand to be corrected, the next question is: Will you accept an Austrian National with police enforcement powers pulling off the road and intimidating you!*
*4. The way the Bill of Rights of the Constitution of 1996 works is as follows: The Constitution including the Bill of rights is the supreme law of our land and any law or conduct that does not comply with the Constitution will be declared invalid. Here’s the problem though, the Bill of rights is limited in terms of section 36 of the Constitution*
*5. Section 21 of the Constitution basically says that you have a right to freedom of movement, you also have the right to enter and reside anywhere in SA.* 
*6. The limitation of these rights in section 36 provides as follows:*
*“36 Limitation of rights* 
*(1) The rights in the Bill of Rights may be limited only in terms of law of general application to the extent that the limitation is reasonable and justifiable in an open and democratic society based on human dignity, equality and freedom, taking into account all relevant factors, including-* 
*(a) the nature of the right;* 
*(b) the importance of the purpose of the limitation; (c) the nature and extent of the limitation;* 
*(d) the relation between the limitation and its purpose; and* 
*(e) less restrictive means to achieve the purpose..”*
*7. I’m of the opinion that all legal avenues should be pursued and further that the right to freedom of movement will be infringed by etolling. I’m of the opinion that sanral will not be able to argue effectively that the limitation of the right to freedom of movement is reasonable and justifiable in an open and democratic society based on human dignity, equality and freedom. In fact the contrary holds true*
*8.Certain people such as pensioners, university students,unemployed people and people that earn less than R5000 per month should be completely exempted from any etolling whatsoever

sanrall and the department of transport
*


*



*

----------


## Citizen X

We must never loose sight of the fact that etolling has been averred as an investment/saving opportunity i.e. when you eventually pay for etolling on roads that you currently use but pay nothing for, you'll either make R8.84 for every rand you spend on etolling or you'll save R8.84 for every rand you spend. You'll also have the added benefit of extra time for the gym and extra time for your family. So, since we take this for face value, why doesn't that Austrian company simply buy our etolling investment portfolio's? Then they can make R8.84 for every rand they spend buying this portfolio from us or they'll save R8.84 for every rand they spend and they'll also have more time for the gym and their family!

Sanral and the department of transport

----------


## Citizen X

*There’s still misleading representations that have no factual basis making the public rounds:*
*“Do not allow popular opinion to subvert what would otherwise be a good decision.”*
*The implication: Etolling is a good decision.The entire South African population, the people of South Africa are wrong???*
*“ Someone must pay that 32 billion.”*
*The question I’d like to pose to you is simply this: Will you trust the Government through the Department of Transport and Sanral with your bank account? Don’t answer until you’ve digested the following:*
*1. We were rated the 54th most corrupt country out of 178 countries by “The 2010 Transparency International Corruption Perceptions Index.” I’m confident that since that 2010 report we must be closer to number 1! Do we get a prize if we the most corrupt country in the world?*

*2. Some South African highlights that should allow us to win that most corrupt country prize:*

*“Public Protector Thuli Madonsela will soon wrap up a probe into the contested R500-million lease of a Pretoria building by the South African Police Service (SAPS). The high-value deal, which involved the SAPS, the department of public works and a businessman linked to President Jacob Zuma, has been described as "shady" and "dodgy" in months gone by as it did not follow normal tender processes. Madonsela received an 11th-hour response to inquiries into the deal from police National Commissioner Bheki Cele on Sunday. Responses from the Treasury -- whose regulations were contravened -- the department of public works, and complainant Paul Hoffman from the South African Institute for Accountability were received earlier this year. 
http://www.mg.co.za/article/2011-01-...gy-office-deal*


*
ICT 'forged Kumba application'
**
Johannesburg - Imperial Crown Trading (ICT) allegedly got hold of Kumba’s application for mineral rights and forged parts of it over the long weekend extending from April 30 to May 4 last year. 
The falsified documents were apparently submitted with ICT’s application for the very same mineral rights that Kumba had applied for, but Kumba’s application had failed. 
The rights were awarded to ICT at the insistence of Jacinto Rocha, the then deputy director-general for the regulation of mineral resources, despite recommendations from all his senior officials that the application should be rejected. 
ArcelorMittal South Africa (Amsa) wanted to pay R800m for ICT’s rights, and had concluded a black economic empowerment deal worth R9bn with all the parties involved, all of whom have strong ANC connections. 
A total 50% of ICT belongs to Jagdish Parekh, a confidant and friend of President Jacob Zuma and his son Duduzane. Kumba’s court documents argue that: 
- The prescribed application form was not included when ICT’s application for the mineral rights was lodged at the provisional office of the Kimberley Department of Mineral Resources (DMR) on May 4 last year; 
- ICT’s application contains falsified copies of title deeds of farms on which mineral rights had been awarded, which had clearly been copied from Kumba's application; 
- Prospecting rights awarded to ICT were on farms that were part of the Sishen property, but for which ICT had not applied. Kumba had in fact applied for mineral rights on this land, the remaining portion of the farm 468; and ......... 
http://www.miningmx.com/news/markets...y-fraud%20.htm
*



*
Zuma's son linked to Sishen firm
**
Duduzane Zuma (27) is, together with Jagdish Parekh, a director and shareholder at JIC Mining Services, a contractor mining company that mainly provides labour-broking services to mines. During the past two weeks Parekh has become a director of ICT and, according to him, owns 50% of this company. This means that Parekh now owns 10.7% of the mineral rights in the Sishen mine - the world's biggest iron-ore mine at Kathu in the Northern Cape. 
http://www.fin24.com/Companies/Zumas...-firm-20100418
*



*
'Fraud could cripple SA'
**
"Behind every corrupt official, contract or tender there is a company involved in the process of corruption." This is according to Bart Henderson, president of the South African Institute of Corporate Fraud Management. Henderson said South Africans are becoming increasingly aware of how fraud is penetrating not only the public but also the private sector, and the crippling effect it has on service delivery and the economy. 
http://www.fin24.com/Business/Fraud-...le-SA-20091029
*



*
AG names and shames state spendthrifts
**
Cape Town - The Auditor General's office on Wednesday named and shamed departments guilty of irregular expenditure in the last financial year, with defence being the worst offender. That department racked up more than R1bn in irregular expenditure, accounting for 43% of the government's total bill of irregular expenditure of just under R3.9bn in 2009/10. ...... Here the three worst offenders were the Road Traffic Management Corporation with R360m, the National Prosecuting Authority with R273m and the Property Management Trading Entity with R264m. The State Information Technology Agency accumulated R214m in irregular expenditure, and Cipro R95m. In both cases the full amount was attributed to flawed procurement. 
http://fin24.com/Economy/AG-names-an...rifts-20101117
*



*
AG questions CCMA's R22m IT spend 
**
The Auditor-General has cleared the Commission for Conciliation, Mediation and Arbitration (CCMA) of fraud and corruption, but found the organisation spent millions on ICT procurement irregularly. The irregular expenditure was revealed by the AG's report to Parliament late last week, after it conducted an investigation into the CCMA at the Department of Labour's request. 
Last October, the Labour Department referred the Commission to the AGs office, citing several concerns, including the appointment of service providers and the employment of personnel – including the risk and human resource managers – without proper processes being followed. The Auditor-General's report, completed last month and now tabled in Parliament, reveals the CCMA spent R23.6 million irregularly, because the proper procurement processes were not followed. The majority of this amount – approximately R22.85 million – was allocated to ICT expenditure. 
http://www.itweb.co.za/index.php?opt...ticle&id=35907
*



*
Agency spent R106m on party
**
R100 000 for balloons, R60 000 for confetti and R90 000 for a headstone. These are some of the exorbitant payments made by the National Youth Development Agency – a government agency tasked with creating jobs for the youth – to politically connected businesspeople and artists for last December’s World Festival of Youth and Students.....
» A company owned by “kwaito king” Arthur Mafokate was paid R5.3 million for providing entertainment, including expensive balloons and confetti; » A company owned by Mafikozolo band manager Julius Mekwa received a contract worth almost R9 million for managing the opening and closing ceremonies; » Bitline SA, a company owned by ANC Youth League president Julius Malema’s well-known business associate Ali Boshielo, scored more than R1 million for providing bags, T-shirts and other paraphernalia; and 
http://www.fin24.com/Economy/Agency-...party-20111009
*
*All Expenses Paid
**
Businessman Panganathan "Timmy" Marimuthu, a close friend of suspended national police commissioner Bheki Cele, with a conviction for drug dealing , and his family were paid more than R1.6-million from the fund in less than two years. An extensive trail of documents shows that: 
http://www.timeslive.co.za/sundaytimes/2012/04/22/all-expenses-paid"

*



*
ANC to bag R50m from Eskom deals
**
The ANC's investment arm Chancellor House will receive R50m over eight years in profit from the Eskom Medupi and Kusile power stations, Hitachi Power Africa said on Tuesday. "Chancellor House will only share in the profits of the local scope and it will not be billions... We are looking at about R50m over a period of eight years. That's the magnitude," said Hitachi Power Africa CEO Johannes Musel. 
http://www.fin24.com/Economy/ANC-to-...deals-20100420
*



*
ANC's unpaid millions: Lawsuits just keep piling up
**
The company that held a major contract with the ANC for its January 8 celebration earlier this year says it is owed R10-million and the party is not paying. And subcontractors of the company that held the primary contract for the ANC's campaign ahead of last year's local government elections say they have not been paid in full. Documents in the Mail & Guardian's possession support this claim. Yet the ANC maintains that it lives within its means and that the only bill it has not paid is under discussion. This itself is in dispute, however. Details of the ANC's funding and the contracts it is involved in are hard to get. There is no obligation on political parties to disclose the source of donations or how much money they receive. In terms of contract disputes, the close links between the party and the government make for tight-lipped companies and individuals. "If you deal with government departments that give out business, just about everyone that makes a decision there is deployed from the ANC," said one source this week, after being pressed for information. "If I tell you things I'll be blacklisted. Maybe not on paper, but I won't be getting tenders, that's for sure." 
http://mg.co.za/article/2012-03-23-ancs-unpaid-millions
*



*
ANCYL lands a lucrative contract
**
A printing company linked to the ANC Youth League (ANCYL) and partly owned by the league’s national executive committee member Ali Boshielo has landed a crucial printing contract with the Limpopo government. A letter from the Government Printing Works sent to Review Printers shows that the company was awarded the contract in March for “printing and supplying of general full-colour work in the Limpopo province for a period of one-year commencing April 1 2010 and terminating March 31 2011”. Documents in the possession of City Press show that the ANCYL’s investment vehicle – the South African Youth Development Trust – holds a stake of 30% in Review Printers. 
http://www.citypress.co.za/SouthAfri...tract-20100502
*



*
Borehole tender shame
**
Official papers in City Press’s possession show that more than half of the 100 tenders, ranging in value from R8 000 to R499 000, were issued to a list of beneficiaries packed with ­local ANC cadres and activists.
Mopani district municipality mayor Joshua Matlou, an ally of Premier Cassel Mathale and ANC Youth League president Julius Malema, was subsequently elevated to the party’s regional chairpersonship unopposed. An ANC local leader who refused to be named said: “Those tenders were for the conference. That is why that boy (Matlou) was ­elected unopposed.” The beneficiaries, including Desmond Mahasha, branch chairperson Phetole Molapisane and Member of the Provincial Legislature Pharephare Mothupi, got their share of the tenders less than a month before the Mopani regional elective conference last September. This has stirred up allegations that taxpayers’ money was used to buy votes. 
http://www.citypress.co.za/SouthAfrica/News/Borehole-tender-shame-20100627"
*

----------


## Citizen X

*It’s common cause that there is a major difference between the billing system and meter readings. Imagine if the City Council had direct excess to your bank account! They would simply deduct whatever they believed you owed them, and that would be that!*
*Common denominator: The City Council is an organ of the State and the Department of Transport and it’s baby Sanral are organs of the State*
*Sanral and Department of Transport*
*YOU CAN TRUST US WITH YOUR BANK ACCOUNT
*

----------


## Citizen X

Electronic Toll Consortium(ETC) CEO: Salahdin Yacoubi and his attitude!
One politically connected company that will benefit from etolling is none other than: Tsebo Holdings.  :Clap: 
This is a catering company so what expertise they have in roads is beyond me! This company is partly owned by Nozala Investments and Lereko. “Nozala Investments is headed by Salukazi Dakile-Hlongwane, a trustee of ANC front company Chancellor House. Lereko is owned by former environmental Minister valli Moosa and Chancellor House trustee Pop Molefe.”
Now, here’s where it gets interesting: “ A major beneficiary is Swedish company Kapsch TrafficCom, which owns 40% of the main contractor, Electronic Toll Consortium(ETC) whose CEO is none other than Salahdin Yacoubi. This company ETC was until 2000 owned by’ arms company SAAB, which paid bribes of more than R24 million to ensure that it was picked to supply Gripen Jets to SA in the ARMS deal. :Oops: 
Salahadin Yacoubi on these companies, “ How I source things is my decision. Firstly, I didn’t know about any links with the ANC and secondly  I’m not interested. If you have problems because the owners are linked to this or that, I’m sorry. I’m a private company I can do that.”
I’m beginning to understand now why it’s so urgent to pay that 32 Billion!

Urgency to pay 32 billion. “ Someone must foot the Bill.” " we can't default on payment."

----------


## Blurock

The plot thickens!

A list of beneficiaries will obviously not be made public. Once the secrecy bill is passed, information such as this will not be open to the public who needs to be protected from the political scavengers.

I have always thought that tolls should be raised to pay for a specific road, bridge or infrastructure. The money raised would then be used for the maintenance of such a road. The ANC government obviously thinks differently; by privatising a road, they can now profit from the deal.

Sickening.... :Rant1:  :Censored:

----------


## Citizen X

My impassioned Plea to the following Soth African Provinces: Eastern Cape, Free State, Kwazulu Natal, Limpopo, Mpumalanga, North West, Northern Cape and Western Cape
1. Etolling was never about improving or maintaining our roads, it will never be about improving or maintaining our South African roads. Its sole purpose is to unjustifiably enrich certain individuals and certain companies. It is a lucrative business opportunity. South Africans are being lied to!
2. The intention is to roll out etolling to all other provinces. The argument of why should other provinces pay for Gauteng roads has an immediate intention(Dolus), namely, don’t get other provinces voices heard on this matter, deal swiftly with any Gauteng uprising and when etolling is rolled out to other provinces then deal with them accordingly; Start the objection to etolling process now already in your Provinces, i.e. petitions etc
3. With the benefit of objective hindsight, I now realize that the installation of these etolling gantries caused huge traffic problems of being unnecessarily delayed in traffic because these gantries needed to be installed to enrich certain individuals and companies, there were many accidents caused as a direct result of such road works, the vast majority of us Gautengers innocently believed that the Government was improving the roads for the 2010 world cup and improving the roads for us. I think we overlooked the frustration and inconvenience such road works caused us. The only major road works were the installation of these gantries;
4. No one believes or accepts the argument that for every rand you personally spend on etolling you will either make R8.84 or save R8.84 and even have extra time for the gym and to spend with your family. Without paying etolls as at today’s date, you not saving anything, there is no improvement in traffic(traffic is as worse as it possibly could be and will only get worse), you don’t have extra time to spend with your family or to go to the gym, new road users are entering the traffic on a daily basis so when we reach a situation of paying how will that improve your situation, you will only make you poorer by that amount you have to pay!
5. If the Arab uprising or Spring has taught us anything then it’s simply this: The Will of the people eventually prevails!
 WE WANT YOU TO HAVE BETTER ROADS, WE CARE ABOUT YOU

----------


## Dave A

I'm not sure there's much the provinces can do about it - it's national roads that are being tolled and it falls within the ambit of national government.

Interesting that Chancellor House has a finger in the pie, albeit quite far removed from source by the looks of things. Just one more oddity that on its own one probably couldn't read too much into it. But when you add it to all the other little oddities around the financing and ownership, it really does add up to something of a fishy brew.

----------


## Citizen X

Yes, some murky waters there. The one positive is that it united South Africans. a common cause. I think the Arab saying for this is ," The enemy of my enemy is my friend!"

----------


## Citizen X

Re: Your resignation: Ref: Nazir Alli


Dear Mr Alli,



1.      I refer to the above matter and further to your resignation which came before me in my official capacity of South African Citizen(ex officio);

2.      I hereby confirm that I accept your resignation, and furthermore that you may stay in your position until 3 June 2012
I would like to take this opportunity to wish you everything of the best!


Best regards,

South African Citizen


"The immediate focus and priority of the board is to ensure that Sanral continues to perform its essential role in operating and maintaining more than 16000km of national roads across South Africa," Mr Mnyaka said.

Mr Mnyaka, in my official capacity as a South African citizen I hereby inform you that I’m pleased that you are going to perform your essential role in operating and maintaining more than 16000km of national roads across South Africa.”
Please continue to do so as you have done so all these years without etolling.
Don’t worry about who should pay that 32 billion, just like the pebble nuclear project failed so too should etolling. Just invite that Austrian company for supper, I’m sure that they will understand.
Best regards,
South African Citizen

----------


## Nickolai Naydenov

Here's the latest article from Mail & Guardian: 

SANRAL only able to limp on for six months
08 MAY 2012 16:30 - LYNLEY DONNELLY

As CEO Nazir Alli resigns, treasury told parliamentarians that Sanral would only be able to survive another six months through "major sacrifices".

As the embattled South African National Roads Agency lost its CEO, Nazir Alli, the national treasury told parliamentarians on Tuesday that Sanral would only be able to survive for another six months and only through “major sacrifices”.

For the next six months Sanral could exist by “scraping” together resources intended for other purposes and using them to make sure that it meets its immediate finanicial obligations — “but only through major sacrifrices and for a very short period”, said transport department director general Lungisa Fuzile.

He was speaking at a briefing on the treasury’s strategic plan to the portfolio committee on finance.

The government would not allow Sanral to collapse, nor was it able to walk away from Sanral’s liabilities as the legislation establishing agency included a strong implicit guarantee of its debts, he said.*This was reinforced by government’s explicit commitments to back Sanral’s debt, said Fuzile.

The decision by Moody’s to downgrade Sanral’s debt by two notches, which the state had warned of in court proceedings last week, was “very serious”, he said.*Not only did it substantially raise Sanral’s cost of borrowings, but it also brought Sanral bonds very close to a sub-investment grade rating.

If an financial instrument, such as a bond, is rated as sub-investment grade they are deemed much more risky.

This meant , said Fuzile, that many of Sanral’s investors are now taken to the legal limits of the types of investments they are able to hold on behalf of their clients.

“This is a crisis environment,” said deputy finance minister Nhlanhla Nene after the briefing.

The Cabinet committee was seeking to ensure that Sanral was sustainable beyond the next six months and is treating this as an urgent matter, he said.

According to treasury, the government has guaranteed 56% of Sanral’s debt, approximately R21.4-billion of a total debt of R37.9-billion.

The department acknowledged concerns around the impact of Sanral’s debt downgrade on other state-owned entities but is confident the other SOE’s, on a stand-alone basis, had solid financial metrics.

However, opposition MPs were very critical of treasury’s reluctance to deal with the Sanral issue in greater detail.

The department had warned early in the week that it wanted to focus on issues relevant to its strategic plan, rather than deal with a matter that was part of the ongoing court proceedings and being addressed by Cabinet.

The hearing was a missed opportunity to deal with the worries regarding the state of the SOE debt market, in the wake of Sanral crisis, said Congress of the People MP Nick Koornhof.

Democratic Alliance MP Tim Harris called on Finance Minister Pravin Gordhan to explain the fiscal consequences on the country with the delay of the e-toll project, and to outline alternative options that will minimise the cost to the taxpayers.

----------


## Nickolai Naydenov

The sad part is that tolling or no tolling we'll still pay the costs because where does government take money from? Us the tax payers of course. So SANRAL originaly estimated the costs to be 22 billion which ended up being 40 billion, I don't know about you but miscalculations of that magnitude to me mean how much money have been taken by government employees by means of corruption. Mr. Ali resigns because now the s*it hit the fan so that's a easy way out because he knows what's going to happen next. Then I wonder what happened to the 15.7 billion that GEPF spent on sanral bonds. I also wonder how government tells us how to invest our money for retirement but they do as they please with people's money, corruption and nonsense, this is our government unfortunately.

----------


## Justloadit

Yes we have to pay for the upgrade, but the path that we are now going to follow, does not include all the unnecessary bribery and corruption that was covering the collection of the toll monies.

No one said that we must not pay for it, the methodology being used to collect the funds on the behalf of the debt was dubious, and there was going to be a lot of money disappearing into oblivion, there just too many open hands along the path of collection to final payment.

The finance minister had pledged over R5 billion in the budget this year to pay for the eToll account, so where is the money that was promised. Simply transfer the money to cover the debt and we can get on with our lives.

If the government does this for the next 5 years, then the infrastructure upgrade is fully paid. 

The problem here is that too many people want to be remunerated for being in the Political Position that they are in, they are not there to ensure that the public funds are to be used wisely. The notion that public money belongs to them and they shall do as they please is what is in question.

We need to get rid of all these thief's, as they are the ones creating the bad investments.

----------


## Citizen X

* Good morning Nickolai and Jusloadit, you guys both raise very valid perspectives! Nickolai is right when he says we still going to pay for it anyway. I would prefer a fuel levy though. Let's assume that they increase petrol by 10 cents per liter. That 1 liter of petrol still takes the average car 10 kilometers. So it's 1 cent per kilometer which is very reasonable considerating what Sanral wanted to charge per kilometer. And, yes, they will eventually get all their money this way and still make a profit. They just should not be greedy and expect this overnight.
Justloadit, is right when he avers that part of that money will go to bribery and corruption and hence the urgency surrounding the paying of that 32 billion!
My concern is that there are attempts to lead the South public to believe that this is in our best interest. Look at the following proposition:

"The immediate focus and priority of the board is to ensure that Sanral continues to perform its essential role in operating and maintaining more than 16000km of national roads across South Africa," Mr Mnyaka said.
What any reasonably minded person can deduce from this, is that My Mnyaka is trying to say that Sanral will continue to do what they have always done. In my opinion he is trying to use innuendo very ineffectively by the way to suggest that this part of this ‘continuance’ of what Sanral always done has been done is to introduce etolling! We’ve had had etolling before! Why do we really need it now? Then this concept of someone must pay that 32 billion. Given our history of failed projects why and how is it a problem for us to actually pay anyone? The pebble nuclear financial disaster is just one example. We moved on with no problem. Etolling should also fail just like the pebble nuclear project. The vast majority of South Africans won’t mind.
Salahadin Yacoubi (CEO ECT) on these ANC linked beneficiaries, “ How I source things is my decision. Firstly, I didn’t know about any links with the ANC and secondly I’m not interested. If you have problems because the owners are linked to this or that, I’m sorry. I’m a private company I can do that.”
I’m beginning to understand now why it’s so urgent to pay that 32 Billion!
Look at this man’s attitude! Do we as South Africans really need to put up with his indifference?
They can just invite him and his staff for supper and call it a day.
SANRAL
“E THIEF”
Salahadin Yacoubi on these companies, “ How I source things is my decision. Firstly, I didn’t know about any links with the ANC and secondly I’m not interested. If you have problems because the owners are linked to this or that, I’m sorry. I’m a private company I can do that.”
I’m beginning to understand now why it’s so urgent to pay that 32 Billion!*

----------


## Dave A

I'd actually like to credit Nazir Alli for a couple of things:

1. He has done a fair job at SANRAL for a number of years preceding the eTolling debacle.
2. As the top man in an organisation that has blundered on his watch, he has taken responsibility and done the honourable thing - tendered his resignation.

Frankly, I wish there were more like him in government and quasi-government agencies. 
(I'm not wishing that they fail, but that when their *organisation* does fail, that they duly resign as the accountable leader).

----------

Blurock (10-May-12)

----------


## AndyD

I also don't have a problem with Nazir Alli, from what little I've read he appeared to have many achievements at Sanral. It wasn't the first time he's resigned, it was just the first time his resignation was accepted. He also wasn't directly or solely responsible for the e-toll debacle. In my opinion if he was pushed to resign as a scapegoat offering they'll have to do a damn sight better than that.

----------


## Citizen X

*We will continue in our role in operating and maintaining national roads across South*

----------


## Martinco

Now just to confuse the issue even further.

One guy is going to pay for three trips !   :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 

I guess these were taken during the testing phase but never-the-less.

----------


## Justloadit

Ha, is it not the previous Tshwane metro police chief?


Have you noted the date and times?

----------


## Citizen X

*"BALTY GP."
"Dis lekker in Siuid Afrika, cause Toronto is too blady far!"*

----------


## Martinco

> Have you noted the date and times?


These were the times I uploaded the pics to the forum.
The time when the pics were taken is actually printed right on top in very small print !

----------


## Justloadit

> These were the times I uploaded the pics to the forum.
> The time when the pics were taken is actually printed right on top in very small print !


Yes, I was referring to the time of the pics taken, I am half blind, but it seems the date time was 2012, April 23 around 6AM on all three.

----------


## Blurock

"There is a roads levy of R1.97 per litre on petrol. This is supposed to be for the maintenance of roads, but the government is syphoning the fund off to use for other means." :Yikes: 

Is this true? If so, it means that our own government is stealing from motorists! Where is the minister of transport and the minister of finance. Can they give us assurances and guarantees?

A levy on the fuel price is fair as EVERYONE pays when they use a road. The national road infrastructure can be maintained with minimum dilution for administration costs and without overseas shareholders. The proviso is that the fund must be applied for the roads infrastructure and not be syphoned off for parties, pals and backhanders. :Batman:

----------


## Citizen X

There are so many flaws in any argument in favour of etolling!
Sanrall is the creditor and postulated that Sanrall staff or affiliates be given law enforcement powers. So this essentially means that your creditor, that you now owe money to, can enforce the law in their favour!
Problem: A body or person cannot be the judge in his own matter!The nemo iudex in sua causa rule (``no one should be judge in his own case'' ) the rule against bias or prejudice)

----------


## Chrisjan B

http://www.moneyweb.co.za/mw/view/mw...ail&pid=287226

----------


## Citizen X

Good morning Chrismine,
That article is very disturbing to say the very least! You know what really grabs me is the fact  that the Government has unlimited amounts of tax payer money to spend on litigation. It won’t even matter to the Government if the costs of their litigation comes to 100 million!
“JOHANNESBURG – Government plans to appeal an interim order to stop e-tolling saying that cabinet is committed “to the user pay principle and its decision on e-tolling as an efficient mechanism of collection”.The decision was taken at a cabinet meeting on Wednesday”

----------


## Chrisjan B

My thoughts exactly...

----------


## Justloadit

Well maybe we should start burning down the gantries, as this is the only message that government seems to understand. Peaceful demonstrations fall on deaf ears as it seems it just noise in the street. When violence is acted, then things seem to happen.

----------


## Citizen X

*“We received the judgment only late yesterday afternoon.”
*

Government of South Africa v Citizens of South Africa!

----------


## Chrisjan B

http://www.timeslive.co.za/politics/...med-to-fail-da

----------


## Dave A

> The interim order issued by Judge Bill Prinsloo was unlikely to be overturned, as sound reasons had been given for it, Democratic Alliance spokesman Jack Bloom said.
> 
> "Government's appeal will just drag out the court proceedings, creating further uncertainty in the credit markets."
> 
> He was puzzled by the government's hard line as the SA National Roads Agency Ltd (Sanral) had itself indicated it would not appeal the case.


Jack should read this thread to get a clue on the vested interests involved  :Stick Out Tongue: 

Pretty damn obvious why government is taking a hard line once you understand where the money comes from, and where the profits will be going.

----------


## Citizen X

*“Its all about the money,
its all about the dum dum duh dee dum dum.
I don't think its funny.
To see us fade away.
Its all about the money,
its all about the dum dum duh dee dum dum.
and I think we got it all wrong anyway.”

*
*“He was puzzled by the government's hard line as the SA National Roads Agency Ltd (Sanral) had itself indicated it would not appeal the case…”
Government:“The best things in life are free,But you can give them to the birds and bees, I want money, I want money, Give me your money,* _Just give me money.”
_

----------


## Citizen X



----------


## Citizen X

*The etolling match*
*Introducing first: Fighting out of the red corner: The South African Government, the current reigning champion of corruption, nepotism, mal administration and poor service delivery. The reigning champion has unlimited amount of tax payer money to spend on litigation*
*
Currently in the blue corner: We have the Citizens of South Africa, over worked and under paid, debt stricken and battling to cope with inflation. The people of South Africa must get donor funds for litigation*
*Now let’s’ have a clean fight here!* 
*The Government of South Africa v The People of South Africa
*
*
*

----------


## Phil Cooper

*QUESTION:*

- The responsible party for the roads is SANRAL.

- They were sued, and the decision was made by them not to appeal.

-  How come the Government can now appeal? They were not (theoretically) a party to the original case, or decision.

ie Do they have a legal interest in the case (other than being the primary (only) shareholder in SANRAL?

----------

Citizen X (18-May-12)

----------


## Citizen X

1.You exactly right Phil. It is beyond everyone why the Government is intervening here! But ofcourse the Government will have some spin for their intervention i.e national interest, we need to be responsible in paying any debt incurred for the Gauteng Freeway Improvement Project (GFIP).
2.The cabinet spoke person is simply expressing an opinion which is relative to who you are and how you perceive the situation. “Gauteng Freeway Improvement Programme had resulted in “major improvements” to Gauteng freeways.” How do you define or measure major improvement. Is it a major improvement when you developed on 10 km of road or when you developed 200km of road? Defaulting on debt? Since the Government is the guarantor of this project there need not be any default, they must find another way to pay for it.
3.“Manyi said the cabinet had, at its meeting, reiterated its commitment to the user-pay principle and its decision on e-tolling as an efficient mechanism of collection. “ Again, whether etolling is an efficient mechanism for collection is relative to who you are and how you perceive etolling. For the vast majority of South Africans it’s not an efficient mechanism if by efficient mechanism you mean charge South Africans to use our own roads. It’s an efficient mechanism for all the stakeholders in this project, it’s easy money!

4.You can tell that the Government does not care about the people of South Africa. They never consulted us properly about etolling(even though they say they did) and they just ignoring the litany of public outcry at present.

5.Reforandum:Since this affects all South Africans as they will roll etolling out to the other provinces, the best way forward is to see exactly what the will of the South African people is on this issue. Hold a referendum, and let us as South Africa vote on the matter! Based on our shameful history of bribery and corruption it begs the question is the appeal legitimate or is the real intention to hide corruption or to protect the true identities of those who will benefit financially?

6. When it comes to spending on such vital areas such as government hospitals then the government is not so willing, but to spend on etolling very willing. The following figures are old, i’m sure it’s worsened as at today’s date:

“At the worst hospitals, the conditions that patients are subjected to frequently
amount to a gross abuse of human rights. When patients must spend hours waiting
just for a file; when they must bring their own linen; stay in wards infested with
vermin and reeking of human waste; or share a bed with another patient, and when
hospital buildings are infested with grime and rubbish and one nurse is expected to manage an over-crowded ward single-handedly, then it is patently obvious that the rights of patients are not being respected and that urgent action is required.
Rob Ferreira is the third largest hospital in Mpumalanga. It serves a community ofabout 550 000 people and takes referrals of complicated cases from Barberton andShongwe provincial hospitals. But the 350-bed hospital is famous for all the wrong reasons.
Vacancy rates at this hospital are virtually destroying its ability to provide care to the nearly half a million people who it serves:
• There are 109 posts for doctors, but only 36 are filled (a 67% vacancy
rate).
• The hospital has fewer than 50% of the nurses it needs (356 out of 694).
• The hospital needs 12 pharmacists - it only has one.
• It only has four of the 20 specialists it needs.
• It only has four of the ten dentists it needs.”
“In 2005, 26 babies in the intensive care unit died of klebsiella, a bacteria caused by poor hygiene, at Mahatma Gandhi Hospital in Durban. The source of the bacteria was the intravenous formula fed to the babies through drips. One batch of infected IV formula was being used to feed a number of babies in an attempt to cut costs. “Inadequate handwashing practices” introduced the bacteria to the IV formula. However, no one was held responsible for these deaths – presumably because there was a chain of negligence stretching from the ward staff to the province, which had been told by the hospital that it’s neonatal intensive care unit was overcrowded and understaffed.”
“ Malfunctioning equipment “This is particularly serious for equipment used in case of emergencies. Resuscitation trollies are often not properly equipped, staff members are not trained to use these and there is sometimes a shortage of oxygen.”
For the aforementioned critical areas the government is not so keen to pay but for etolling they only very willing. WHY????
“Get up, stand up! Stand up for your rights! Get up, stand up! (Get up, stand up!)
Don't give up the fight! (Life is your right!),Get up, stand up! (So we can't give up the fight!)
We sick an' tired of-a your ism-skism game -You can fool some people sometimes,
But you can't fool all the people all the time.,So now we see the light (What you gonna do?),
We gonna stand up for our rights! “

----------


## Citizen X



----------


## Phil Cooper

QUESTION: Is it a efficient way to collect payments when around 66% is going overseas?

I maintain it could be efficient if 90% went to road maintenance, and 10% to collection costs.

----------

Dave A (25-May-12)

----------


## Citizen X

I agree Phil!

----------


## Citizen X

A wise man on TFSA remarked, ‘The more things change, the more they stay the same.’ On a weekly basis I now find merit in his words!
1.    Minister Gordhan is essentially now saying that the Judiciary cannot engage in tasks of the Legislator. The Judiciary is tasked with interpreting law and the legislator(those 400 people in Parliament) are tasked with making law eg Criminal Procedure Act 51 of 1977;
2.    “In an affidavit lodged with the application, Mr Gordhan says at the heart of the dispute "lies a fundamental issue regarding the separation of powers and whether or not a court can exercise discretionary judgment over a government policy decision".
3.    I beg to differ Minister Gordhan. Notwithstanding my official status as a layman, I find as follows:-
4.    That was the type of argument the Apartheid government could have made. Let me elaborate:The model that the Apartheid government was based on was Parliamentary Sovereignty. They had complete legislative authority.The Judiciary was subject to the authority of Parliament. The Judiciary could not declare any Act of Parliament as invalid. The role of the Judiciary was completely curtailed by Parliamentary Sovereignty;
5.    One of the main  objectives of the Constitution of 1996 was to herald in a new era of democratic government based on Constitutional supremacy. The idea was to remove the restraints place on the Judiciary during the Apartheid regime.
6.    Now the argument that Minister Gordhan is essentially making(without putting it in this way) is: Why must a High Court Judge who was not elected to Parliament have power to declare as invalid a law made by Parliament who are in essence the 400 people voting into power? The peoples chosen representatives as it were!
7.    In rebuttal, one can safely argue as follows: The Constitution was made by the Constitutional Assembly. In a true democracy debate about any issue or political matter can take place. We as citizens of South Africa can express our views on etolling, we can challenge the manner in which etolling was introduced, the lack of adequate consultation, the price per kilometer and whether etolling it self is the best way forward or is there another way such as fuel levy. Judicial review or a decision to halt etolling by a High Court pending a review actually contributes to citizens rights to express their views. That High Court decision to halt etolling pending a proper review protects citizens political rights. That High Court judgement will promote a free and uninhibited public debate.
8.    That High Court judge was not making a new law, he was merely ordering a review of etolling.
9.    “In Baloro & Others v University of Bophuthatswana and Others 1995 (8) BCLR 1018 (B) Friedman J acknowledged at 1063G-I that the courts are now cast in the additional role of social engineers and, indeed, social and legal philosophers. This is because the courts are now called upon to promote the values underlying an open and democratic society based on freedom and equality.In Baloro the Court also recognised that the courts will not only beconfined to interpreting existing laws, but will engage in the more creative activity of generating new laws, particularly where the existing law is felt to be ``unjust, ambiguous, inefficient or simply obsolete'' due to changing circumstances.” 


“If left unchecked, the e-tolling judgment could set "a precedent for future judicial intervention along similar lines".
Mr Gordhan said it was therefore imperative that the Constitutional Court considered the matter to "determine the limits of this kind of judicial intervention".Judge Bill Prinsloo’s judgment, handed down on April 28, favoured an application brought by the Opposition to Urban Tolling Alliance (Outa) and interdicted Sanral from commencing tolling on Gauteng’s highways prior to a full judicial review of the project.But Mr Gordhan argued the interdict was a judgment of "long-lasting consequence" because the review would take at least a year as the litigation went through the courts. Meanwhile, the delay would cause irreparable harm to the government and the country.”

----------


## Justloadit

But I thought Mr Gordhan had allocated R5billion  as part payment for the loan, so what has happened to this money? 
Was it now taken back?
What makes the government think that the citizens are actually going to use the toll road as much as they are currently using?
So if there is a shortfall in the collection, then what? An increase in the toll, or will the government now tax it citizens even more to reduce the deficit?

There are too many loose strings here.

If the court has to favour the eTolling, what is going to stop the government from creating eTolling on all roads, even in the suburbs? 
The citizens then would have no say at all.

----------


## Citizen X

> So if there is a shortfall in the collection, then what? An increase in the toll, or will the government now tax it citizens even more to reduce the deficit?
> There are too many loose strings here.
> If the court has to favour the eTolling, what is going to stop the government from creating eTolling on all roads, even in the suburbs? 
> The citizens then would have no say at all.


Good evening Justloadit,
All the concerns that you raise are perfectly valid! The real danger is undermining a decision by a High Court Judge by trying to say that this Judge has now made a law when only Parliament as the legislator is tasked with making laws. This very argument has already failed in the Constitutional Court before, I can’t see how it will succeed now. It’s clear that they don’t want a review of the entire etolling process, how it came about, who was paid what, who are the true financial beneficiaries and what was the actual preconceived plan, was it to test etolling only in Gauteng and then roll it out to other provinces?

----------


## Blurock

In Russia and China the judiciary answers to parliament. You can judge for yourself whether those are free societies! But that is where the ANC cadres received their training, so why should they think differently?

Also see the articles on this in Time of 7 & 14 May.

----------


## Citizen X



----------


## Citizen X

*"WE WILL NOT WIN IN THE COURTS WHAT WE HAVE NOT WON IN THE STREETS!"
"Rise up again fallen fighters! Rise up and take your stance again, he who fights and runs away, lives to fight another day!"
"As a man sow, so shall he reap, AND I know that TALK is CHEAP!"
*

----------


## Blurock

To all the cable thieves, metal thieves and scrap metal dealers - you can have a royal time in Gauteng. Please do us all a favour. :Whistling:

----------

Mike C (17-Nov-12)

----------


## Citizen X

Unjust law and the Fit and proper test for admission as an attorneyFor any of you about to enter the legal profession, you know doubt aware of the ‘Fit and proper Test,’ you further aware that the Attorney’s Act 53 of 1979(as amended) doesn’t really define it. We look to caselaw for guidance as to its interpretation. At present all legal practitioners in South Africa are obliged to uphold all existing laws of the land. :Rant1:  It’s noteworthy that etolling is not as yet existing :Cool: !
*
I look to Legal Professional Ethics for guidance.* I remind you that you must be able to be a person that is capable of accepting responsibility for his/her actions. I’m a different character all together. I respect the rule of law but unjust law, especially where there are question marks about the true beneficiaries of etolling; The bigger picture of South African politics; how etolling will really marginalise poor people and discriminate against them i.e. oh you not good enough to use that nice road because you can’t afford to pay; then, I’m just throwing this out there for further debate really, protracted academia really!
*
‘*The question also arises on which grounds legal practitioners may decide to practise civil disobedience, or to engage in violent resistance. various answers are possible. It may be argued, for example, that resistance is justified when1. the laws are immoral. It would then be a matter of the individual conscience to decide whether or not to obey them (with no guarantee that this conscience is always correct, or that it does not conflict with somebody else’s conscience)2. it is based on the individual’s religious beliefs. The idea is that one should obey God rather than man (but we know that the Bible, for example, can be [and has been] interpreted in different ways.
There have been attempts to justify race discrimination on the basis of specific interpretations of 
the Bible)
3. positive law is unjust, and not worthy of respect. In this regard, appeal is generally made to natural law (as a higher law against which positive law is measured) and man’s reason. Locke’s social-contract theory stems from this idea. According to Locke’s theory, the primary function of government is to protect individual, inalienable rights (eg, the right to life, freedom and property) inequal measure, and to act in the interests of all. The state and its laws need be obeyed only as long as they fulfill this function. Civil disobedience and violent resistance would be justified if the state fails to uphold its side of the bargain. But again there are no explicit criteria to measure the failure.
4. utility so dictates. Disobedience to the laws of the land is regarded as an instrument for bringing
about the greatest good for the greatest number. Conduct A (sabotage) may, according to theutilitarian viewpoint, hold greater benefit for society than conduct B (obedience to the laws), since eventually it will result in a democratic state, even though it may mean that some people will be hurt or will suffer loss in the process. But, consequencialism is not generally accepted. Also there is no guarantee that the promised outcome will materialize, not all may agree that the present situation is not acceptable*.’*[1]

I will state and confirm this for the record though, all you jurists out there, lend your legal minds to OUTA, research your case law..there are really Constitutional issues involved here. This will really promote the class struggle in SA, now it will be only the rich that can use the best roads, what about the millions of poor South Africans!
@ COSATU, I was impressed at how you managed to get CHINA to turn their ships around, when Mugabe ordered weapons from CHINA to butcher his own people! I was impressed!!! The promise you made was clear and unequivocal: All our affiliates will throw your weapens in the ocean!!! CHINA must have simply thought, we can't let such good weapons go to waste, we'll just sell them to another dicatator who does have money! @COSATU, It remains to be seen as to what you can really accomplish with etolling!

I know that there is a High Court review of etolling looming, but , I just think that we need to think ahead of this! Anticipate what their legal minds are contemplating and outwit them legally!!!


[1] Vide. Professional Ethics.UNISA. Mulcklneuk, Pretoria. 2012. Page 25

----------


## Citizen X

Don't let them fool ya,
Or even try to school ya! Oh, no!
*We've got a mind of our own,
So go to hell if what you're thinking is not right!*
Love would never leave us alone,
And in the darkness there must come out to light.

The road of life is rocky and you may stumble too,
So while you point your fingers someone else is judging you..
Don't let them change ya, oh! -
*Or even rearrange ya!* Oh, no!
We've got a life to live.
They say: only - *only* -
only the fittest of the fittest shall survive -
We got to stay alive! So get up, get up, get know, weve been, weve been waiting for far too long, so get up, get up , stand up now!

----------


## Citizen X

> 


The message I get is 'You will pay your etolls or else!' Since etolling is an ANC initiative, the DA was spot on when they used those banners stating *" Etolling proudly brought to you by the ANC."
How can you not be proud* for a bill you voted in favour of and thereafter signed into law?

----------


## Blurock

I came across this letter yesterday;




> Whose freeway is it anyway?
> 
> By Mondli Magwaza 
> Friday, October 25, 2013 
> The Propaganda is tricking you into believing that the streets are not yours, that it is by grace that you can enjoy cruising down the N1 (assuming its a Sunday night.) That you should be grateful of the little that they have done as it comes from the goodness of their hearts. And I fear that you might be giving in.
> No my brothers and sisters, these are our streets, we are the economy of the country, collectively we hold more power than the government.
> 
> A bit about me:
> 
> ...

----------


## Citizen X

> I came across this letter yesterday;


This gentleman has really poured his heart out in this letter in a very coherent and logical manner. It makes perfect sense to me! I can tell that he is loyal to facts, incidentally I too am loyal to facts.

----------


## Blurock

Government should be there to serve the people, not the people to serve government. That is why they are called public servants!

Will they ever get the message? 

This is why you have to vote.

----------

wynn (18-Nov-13)

----------


## Miro Bagrov

> *According to Dr Roelof Botha you will only be saving in many ways when you are in essence tolled. In fact according to him you will even be able to generate R8.84 for every rand that you spend! There are other benefits as well, you’ll save so much time that you’ll be able to spend more time with your family!*
> *Here’s where Dr Botha’s spin goes horribly wrong. You are currently using those very roads that you will be charged for using at a later date. You using those roads now, only you not currently paying anything! Do you find that you currently have more time to spend with your family? You find that you spending less time in the traffic? Since you using the very same roads that you will be paying for using in the near future, are you currently making R8.84 rand just for using the roads for nothing at the moment?*
> *The only difference going forward is that you will be paying for using the very same roads that you are currently using without paying anything! So how on earth will you be saving or how on earth will this be beneficial to you when you were paying nothing for using these roads yesterday and today you paying something? There is no way this logic will work with South Africans.* 
> *This is his exact words:*
> *"Go to the trouble of calculating the time that you are likely to save, or probably are already saving, by using the Gauteng Freeway Improvement Project as opposed to if it had never occurred, and take that time saving and place a value on it in terms of what you can earn if you were to be productive or how fit you could become if you go to the gym or maybe improving the relationships with the rest of your family and spending more time with them."*
> *Dr Botha we are using the very same roads today that we will be paying for tomorrow and there’s no added benefit.* *The only difference is that we will be paying for using these roads going forward**. Nothing you say makes any sense. How do you go from a situation of not paying anything at all for driving on these very same roads to a situation where tomorrow you pay for using these very same roads???How can you save when all the trucks that transport consumer goods will be paying tolls? It's common sense that this will cause the price of food to go up!!!*


Well Yes! It's important to keep the slaves happy somehow. Goodness forbid they realise that the 99% is still stronger than the greedy 1%. Must keep the slaves happy and make them think they are contributing. 'You are all very good slaves, people!'
They must feel good about the fact that this was an overprised project that did not remove traffic from the highway. 
Why doesn't he ask me, would I rather sit in traffic 5-10 min longer or pay R800 p/m before he assumes?

That same project could have been done @ 10% of the cost if the government did not tender and make money for every halfwit investor and builder.

Any tolls, licenses, bribes, tenders, and interest on debt, are all a dead weight loss to society. Yes, that is the actual economics term 'dead-weight-loss'. The other economics term is 'excess burden' on producers and consumers in the economy.
This guy is not an EconomIST, he is a SpendIST... SPEND! SPEND! SPEND! Spend the government's money so you can be slaves to the government. So that every stupid unit of worthless currency they force you to earn can go out your pocket! Well DONE! You are killing Capitalism sir, keep it up!

----------

Citizen X (18-Nov-13)

----------


## Dave S

E-Thief, without a doubt!

----------

Citizen X (18-Nov-13), Miro Bagrov (18-Nov-13)

----------


## IanF

> dead-weight-loss


Miro thanks for teaching me a new economic term. I only did economics 1 years and years ago. Although it seems to refer more to the utility value of the tax. IE it is more beneficial cost wise to avoid the toll than to pay it, rather than a waste of money.

----------

Citizen X (18-Nov-13), Miro Bagrov (18-Nov-13)

----------


## Citizen X

> Miro thanks for teaching me a new economic term. I only did economics 1 years and years ago. Although it seems to refer more to the utility value of the tax. IE it is more beneficial cost wise to avoid the toll than to pay it, rather than a waste of money.


Miro I too sincerely thank you..'dead-weight loss,' makes perfect sense to me!

----------

Miro Bagrov (18-Nov-13)

----------


## Citizen X

> E-Thief, without a doubt!


Real highway robbery..

----------

Miro Bagrov (18-Nov-13)

----------


## Trickzta

I'm posting my opinion with only having read up until page four (will catch up later) so with the possibility that I repeat a previous post being distinct I submit my pet peeve concerning this massive scam as the following.
Once E-Toll is in place, all commodities will become more expensive. The price increase will not always be accurate, but the error in calculation will always err on the side of the supplier. The bare basics, i.e. bread and milk will also cost more and therein lies the crime I dislike intensely. We already have too many that cannot afford the cost of living as things stand at the moment. As usual it is the poorest of the poor that will suffer most to fill the pockets of those that have aplenty.
The whole thing is a complete farce and illegal in my opinion. Nice thread. This episode is another nail in the coffers er coffin of a regime that has been targeted by the elite and earmarked for failure. Say goodbye to the present regime who under siege on many fronts are set to lose their 60+ % majority and possibly not even manage to retain a majority at the polls. (conspiracy theory - watch this space)

----------

Citizen X (19-Nov-13)

----------


## Justloadit

Ha Trickzta, whilst I agree with your post, the ones that will be the most affected, the poor, will be the first to stand in line to collect their KFC chicken leg, and mark his X on the appropriate square of the new oppressor, and then the next morning will burn down the very hall he used to vote in to show his feeling about the non service delivery he has not received in the last 20 years.

Very much like the residents of Bekkersdall, who instead of chasing the IEC out and demanding an apology from the MEC, who said that the ANC does not need their votes to win, should have registered, and at election time should vote for the opposition. To me that is showing my intentions with my cross, not abstaining and allowing the same party to remain in power.

----------

Blurock (20-Nov-13)

----------


## Dave S

My question is who do you think the cANCer is blaming for (necessity of???) e-tolls? Do you honestly believe that the additional costs that are now going to be felt by low incomers (or no-incomers) are going to be blamed on the cANCer? I don't think so. Somehow the cANCer is going to make it look like it was a "Rich Whitey" idea and thereby they will continue to widen the racial gap and secure the vote.

The only way the cANCer can stay in power is by propagating racial sentiments and convincing an uneducated population that "Apartheid" was to blame for everything, and they will continue with this until "thy kingdom come", they know only one method of government, dictatorship, and cannot see beyond into the abyss of democracy, they are not interested in building a strong society that can work together and they will continue to do as they will, without any thought to consequence. When the consequences come, they will simply blame "Apartheid". "Apartheid", a single word that gives only one specific group the right to ignore the laws, piss on the constitution, and generally do as they please.

----------

Blurock (20-Nov-13), Chrisjan B (20-Nov-13), Citizen X (20-Nov-13)

----------


## Trickzta

> That same project could have been done @ 10% of the cost if the government did not tender and make money for every halfwit investor and builder.


I agree one hundred cement! Why not use the money made from the World Cup to pay for resurfacing and some widening of existing roads. How much of the cost was wasted on sophisticated Electronic spyware to automate the direct billing system? Let's see how many will thwart the system and bring it to its knees. This waste, waste, waste system of self enrichment must be stopped in its tracks. Peaceful Civil Disobediance is called for.

----------


## wynn

The local criminals have cottoned on to the idea that if you press a garage remote it jams the signal sent by the moter vehicle's locking remote! I wonder if after all the money spent on eToll gantries if this is not a simple means of #ucking them in the eye?

Just press your garage remote as you approach a gantry and keep it pressed until you have cleared the area.

Perhaps one of our techies can comment?

----------


## ians

People go on about crime and getting robbed by governments, anyway you look at either crime or issue like this we always get the wrong end, always the ones bending over to collect. 

You pay the toll you get screwed, you don't pay the toll you get even more screwed, if nobody pays the toll and they scrap it you get screwed because someone has to pay for the money already spent.

Same thing with crime, you get robbed you loose they take your stuff, you pay insurance every month, they get caught and you get your stuff back you still get screwed because no you have to pay for courts and once they are convicted you pay a monthly premium to keep them in jail.

At the end of the day the man on the street must just pay...pay...pay.

----------


## Dave S

I'm sure someone will come up with some "jamming" device soon (which will get a banned shortly thereafter) same as was with the "speed laser" and "radar" sensors and "jammers". We can but hope.

----------


## pmbguy

You bet your ass they will. People will invent/use a device to jam, the device will get banned (but still used). Sanral will use another technology to overcome this. People will invent/use another device to overcome this (this will get banned, but still used).....and so on and so forth, it will be an e-toll arms race.

----------


## IMHO

> it will be an e-toll arms race.


haha, well put!

----------


## Citizen X

Each individual must decide for himself or herself how they would approach e-tolling. As far as I’m concerned there’s currently no law that states one must buy an e-tag, as it cannot be presumed that one will use the road with gantries, one may use an alternative route. One also has the right to be billed and then appear in court via the summons process. I can’t see that one can be listed on a credit bureau as there is no credit involved i.e. personal loan, credit card, vehicle finance etc.

----------


## Miro Bagrov

Summons for count is only if you paid nothing after 3 warnings.

What you do is, you just pay R10 - R50, and then they will throw the case out  window and have to start again from warning 1.

----------


## ians

IT is gona cost a lot more time and wasted money going to court, so people will just pay.

----------


## Miro Bagrov

As I understand the proposal by others - it's all about delaying and bleeding the system by requesting statements unnecessarily, delaying payments.  As the Auditor General himself states in the SANRAL financial reports - the ability to claim the money is essential to keeping SANRAL from bankruptcy.

The idea is, that they can't take you to court 'if you paid something' even if that 'something' is less than 5% of what you owe. Because you 'did as best as you could'. You will never see court. just humour them with a monthly debit order of R5.... Agree?


.... And... Vote DA... and support COSATU, because only thanks to them the tolls were delayed several months

----------

Citizen X (24-Nov-13)

----------


## Miro Bagrov

The trick to avoid paying anything in SA is:

1. Find a basic human right
2. Prove you can't afford it
3. pay a fraction of what you owe

You will never see court or have issues. It is illegal under the current law to imprison people for failure to pay creditors. (google - 'impossibility of performance', common law, south africa")

----------


## Dave S

And what about them suspending your vehicle's license until your debt is paid? Which is their next logical step in forcing the population to pay?

----------


## Citizen X

Just to add to whatever has already been said on e-tolling….

A *legal* philosophy that supports the outcry of citizens against e-tolling

*John Locke
*
Now not being the time for me to engage in philosophical discourse as I have to face a few philosophers in exams soon[discourse at this time would drive me crazy!! :Confused: ]. 

Notwithstanding this I have only _fairly recently_ gained respect for John Locke and Critical Legal Studies in particular Dr Duncan Kennedy.

Prior to this I had respect for only one philosopher namely Karl Marx. 

_“The philosophers have only interpreted the world in various ways, the point is however to change it!” Karl Marx 1845.
_
_I’m hoping that_ someone will build a picture of John Locke’s philosophy and the current outcry of citizens to e-tolling [I promise I will add my two cents on John Locke in due course] and the sheer relevance of his brain child to what is taking place in SA today.

The key directing question is: What would John Locke [an honorary founding father of the USA] say about e-tolling and how he would approach this situation? 

_To narrow things down_, his views on a social contract between the state and citizens are relevant.




Photo[1]
Photo 2[2]

[1] http://www.google.co.za/imgres?imgur...EwAAWikipedia: Accessed 25 November 2013

[2] Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_Treatises_of_Government. Accessed 25 November 2013

----------

Trickzta (26-Nov-13)

----------


## ians

There are no long explanations, it is simple you pay and carry on with your life or you don't pay.

The big question, What are you going to do about it if you decide not to pay.

If it was a problem for some people they would just walk in a big group down the freeway and rip the thing to pieces, steal what they want and burn what is left, problem solved no gantry no toll fee.

----------


## Citizen X

*WHERE’S YOUR E-TOLL PASSBOOK (ETAG)??
*
This is about restricting movement, in particular movement of the poor, enter the class struggle big time!

Though the apartheid government *had more heinous reasons* for the introduction of their repugnant passbook, as far as I’m concerned, the e-tag is a passbook!



Source photo:
https://www.google.co.za/?gws_rd=cr&...theid+passbook

I know that this analogy is harsh *even for satirical standards* but the e-tag is a passbook of sorts, _not on racial lines_ but on income lines. Sanral even has something called the ‘day *pass.’*
In my opinion the tragic thing is that people in SA who are for a class struggle will by necessary implication what to differentiate themselves from the poor. Having an e-tag is just another way in which one can demonstrate a superior class so to speak. Many rich South Africans may not mind this differentiation at all.

----------

Trickzta (26-Nov-13)

----------


## wynn

So I live in East London and am a bit doff when it comes to which roads in Gauteng are going to be tolled, I follow my GPS to where I want to be and three months later I get a statement from SANRAL saying I owe Sixty rand for going there and back three months previously, I tell them "Impossible, I live in EL, someone has cloned my number plate, please proove that it was my vehicle, you need to send me a photo of the vin to do so?"  :Wink: 

I saw on TV over the weekend about illegally manufactured numberplates and cloned numbers, this is going to be a nightmare for the authorities, SANRAL says that at least we will know our number has been cloned, so what? Is it my perogative to prove I was never there or theirs to prove I was.

Perhaps a little sticker next to the number plate that you change every month and when they send you a picture of your number plate you simply say my car has a picture of 'Daffy Duck' next my numberplate, not 'Goofy' like in your so called proof!

----------


## Citizen X

> So I live in East London and am a bit doff when it comes to which roads in Gauteng are going to be tolled, I follow my GPS to where I want to be and three months later I get a statement from SANRAL saying I owe Sixty rand for going there and back three months previously, I tell them "Impossible, I live in EL, someone has cloned my number plate, please proove that it was my vehicle, you need to send me a photo of the vin to do so?" 
> 
> I saw on TV over the weekend about illegally manufactured numberplates and cloned numbers, this is going to be a nightmare for the authorities, SANRAL says that at least we will know our number has been cloned, so what? Is it my perogative to prove I was never there or theirs to prove I was.
> 
> Perhaps a little sticker next to the number plate that you change every month and when they send you a picture of your number plate you simply say my car has a picture of 'Daffy Duck' next my numberplate, not 'Goofy' like in your so called proof!


Where's your day *PASS?
*

----------


## IMHO

> my car has a picture of 'Daffy Duck' next my numberplate, not 'Goofy' like in your so called proof!


Do not start new sh!t now. Before you know it, we must pay Disney royalties as well. :Smile:

----------


## IanF

I wonder if SANRAL is guilty extortion for the Barbet gantry as an example the rates for a passenger car car goes from R3.00 to R17.40 depending whether you are an etag user registered etc. etc.
How to win friends and influence people NOT
 :Confused:

----------

Citizen X (25-Nov-13)

----------


## Miro Bagrov

E-tag = Dom Pass

Ok, good one!




> And what about them suspending your vehicle's license until your debt is paid? Which is their next logical step in forcing the population to pay?


That's against the consumer protection act. They can't force bundle products/services. Tolls is one service, and License is a totally different one. They cant make the one = the other.

But that's my legal opinion.

----------

Citizen X (26-Nov-13)

----------


## Citizen X

*Receiving a bill by post:* Since our South African Post Office is a shocking of a shambles by any ones standards, I wonder how the ‘post the bill,’ to you scenario is going to work out in real time and in practice.
1. In law, there is a rebuttable presumption that IF you receive an item BY *registered mail* , the recipient is deemed to have received it, I personally am unaware of any legal presumptions regarding ordinary post…

----------


## Dave S

> E-tag = Dom Pass
> 
> Ok, good one!
> 
> 
> 
> That's against the consumer protection act. They can't force bundle products/services. Tolls is one service, and License is a totally different one. They cant make the one = the other.
> 
> But that's my legal opinion.


But They do, and they will...

We know they shouldn't do that, but you go to the license dept. to get the new disc for your car and you're told they cannot give it to you until you have paid-up your tolls, so you argue with the clerk and they won't listen, what now? Get a lawyer? Now they give you your disc but who pays the lawyer? The clerk just claims he never said that he won't issue and you're stuck with a R10K lawyers bill. Don't ever believe that a Government department is not capable of breaking the law and making it very difficult for you, what's more is they will cover each others backs.

----------


## IanF

There are a lot of straws of the back of Zuma/ANC will this be the one that finally breaks the back. 
It is an easy decision for me about using the tolls as I will use alternative routes. 
I wonder how quiet the highways will be on December 3rd?

----------


## pmbguy

The ANC is its own worst enemy at the moment. The e-toll is a particularly large straw Ian, one that might might (small might) just brake the back of the KFC slurping parasite we fondly call the cANCer. 


Alternative routes? What about PHASE 2?

DA responce:

The South African National Roads Agency Limited (SANRAL) will extend e-tolling even further in its second phase, according to Mmusi Maimane, Democratic Alliance (DA) premier candidate for Gauteng, who has again vowed to continue the fight against the controversial policy if he is elected in the province.
Maimane said it is expected at least 300 kilometres of Gauteng’s highways will be tolled in Phase two of the project, and that this was likely to be implemented “in the same manner as the existing phase; without proper consultation and at great expense”.

EFF DA ANC

----------


## Miro Bagrov

> But They do, and they will...
> 
> We know they shouldn't do that, but you go to the license dept. to get the new disc for your car and you're told they cannot give it to you until you have paid-up your tolls, so you argue with the clerk and they won't listen, what now? Get a lawyer? Now they give you your disc but who pays the lawyer? The clerk just claims he never said that he won't issue and you're stuck with a R10K lawyers bill. Don't ever believe that a Government department is not capable of breaking the law and making it very difficult for you, what's more is they will cover each others backs.


Suing government for breaking government rules and government laws is the specialty and absolute favorite of many lawyers. Nice money there.
My approach is to make the government sue the government. That way the government pays for the government. 
By approaching the Consumer Protection Commission in DTI building, Sunnyside. You will be letting the government sue the government.
(This is on every case that Consumer right is violated by SANRAL)

Make sense?

Just lodge cases, don't worry, one day you will get your result.

----------


## Miro Bagrov

My worry for all of South Africans in the middle class, especially the white community, is that many feel that they are in their own country fighting against another country, in which they also live. They are misinformed. It is very difficult to help them... 

Example....
Many of you don't know our own rights - but you are also angry that your rights are violated. Then when you find out your rights, you then say to me that no one is there to enforce your rights... So it's a dead end trying to help anyone.

Just ...Support COSATU, Vote DA, and sue the government at every opportunity. Don't let anything slip. Let your yes be your yes, and your no be your no.
If you say you won't pay, don't pay. 

I won't pay. I might give them R5 every month so that they can't sue me. I know my rights and I can play the law, so I know they can't touch me.

----------


## Citizen X

I really do wonder how this situation will turn out in practice, I’d like to see how in practice they implement the criminal offence stipulation. As even those very cops who will be _presumably_ [as the worst case scenario] arresting you for your e-toll related criminal offence, regardless of whether it’s not having your e-toll account up to date, not having your day-*pass you now basically the criminal!* Many of the very police tasked with such a dutiful and chivalrous task are criminals themselves _[not all but many_], and the system is riddled with criminal corruption and fraud to the billions, yet this is not dealt with in the manner that it seems criminal offence

I wonder if the following scenario won’t somehow really play out:

*Mr Policeman*: “Hey you,* YES you*, where’s your bloody day PASS, don’t you know that it’s an offence not to have your day PASS. We may even just lock you up, that day pass now please :Confused:  :Stick Out Tongue:  :Confused: !”


“Why can't we roam this open country? (open country)
Oh, why can't we be what we wanna be? 
We want to be free. (wanna be free)

3 o'clock roadblock - roadblock - roadblock,

And "*hey*, mr. cop! ain't got no - (hey) hey! (hey, mr cop) -
*(what ya sayin' down there?)* - (hey) hey! *(hey, mr cop)* -
_Ain't got no bloody birth certificate on me right now now."_Bob Marley


Each individual must decide himself or herself how they going to respond or react in practice and in real time. 

It will be interesting to see how this plays out :Confused: . If I get the sentiment correctly, what many opposed to e-tolling are saying is simply that the government of the day has betrayed it’s very own people for something which they have already paid for and feel is rightfully theirs to use freely.
So I suppose the real question is:

Has the government of the day really betrayed its own people in one or more ways?

----------


## Jacques#1

My 2 cents, wont pay.  Will wait untill they serve me my summons, which i have signed, or someone has signed on my behalve in close relation to me.  Only then I will pay THAT summons.  I will let them spend every cent/rand in admin to send me my notices and invoices etc....and pay at point 99.  I will do this every single time.  I only use the highways once every two or so days, short distances, so my bills shouldnt be more than R10 or R20 per trip max, I will make sure their admin is around R10 or R20 before paying :Big Grin:  .  I dont mind paying, I would gladly contribute a few bucks to the road, it does look nice, but its the principal of the whole thing.  They still have not declared a cut off point, so once the roads are paid, and the austrians, and the government officials took their cut, and they built up a kitty to sustain the roads, why still pay....this is my whole issue with it.  Fair enough, it cost a few bucks to build the road, they said a few months back that we would pay off the bills on the (then) tarrifs in a 2 year period, so why pay untill you die, or immigrate?  Money making scheme.....the national bank of the taxpayer she is emty!  The nkandla, and the nando kings have eaten too much, the parlament building with the R2mil art and the R100+ drinking glasses she is empty! let us exploit the people of the country in a new manner, we are smarter then they are, because we are politicians and they are the working class, they will never catch on :Wink:

----------

Citizen X (28-Nov-13)

----------


## Blurock

How are we going to fight crime if the courts are clogged up with e-toll cases?

What will they do if everyone refuses to pay e-tolls. Will they take the softest target and make an example of him/her? Put him on the rack, torture him untill he pays or put him to the guillotine or burn him at the stake? Will they attach your car/home/furniture to pay for outstanding tolls?

Unless the people stand together on this one, e-tolls will spread like a cANCer to all the cities or metro areas in South Africa. Inflation wil double as businesses increase their prices to pay for the tolls. The unions will demand more because of the higher cost of living and SANRAL will double the price of e-tolls due to wage demands from its own people. 

The sad thing is that the bulk of the cash collected will go to the shareholders in Austria. More revenue will flow out of the country as local businesses close and we have to import more. The balance of payments will go into an accelerated decline and the Rand will weaken, making imports even more expensive. This is an ongoing, downward spiral and the only winners are the foreign investors and their partners in government.

Who do we have to thank for this mess? The ANC.  :Oops:

----------

Citizen X (28-Nov-13)

----------


## Citizen X

Without unnecessary conclusions and suppositions, they’ve now associated the non-paying of e-tolls as a criminal offence. In essence you now in the very same category of the greater pool of criminals in SA. You now also the “criminal!” So if someone is charged with multiple counts of murder and you simply ask, what do you as the ‘non-paying,’ e-pass suspect has in common with the perpertartor accused of murder is that you both engaging in criminal activity. Oh you criminal! You are engaging in some criminal activity. You must be dealt with severely. The simple question: “Where’s your bloody  e-*pass*?

----------


## IanF

> Unless the people stand together on this one, e-tolls will spread like a cANCer to all the cities or metro areas in South Africa. Inflation wil double as businesses increase their prices to pay for the tolls. The unions will demand more because of the higher cost of living and SANRAL will double the price of e-tolls due to wage demands from its own people.


This is a one hell of leap in logic, look at petrol from R7/l a few years ago to R13/l now. I am sure this did not cause prices to double.
I hate the etoll but in reality it will cause a change in habits with staff moving closer to work or ecommute for 2 days a week etc. So this will dampen the effect. Also there are discounts for going outside peak hours so hopefully trucks will use the highways in non peak hours.
Basing the rate on 30c per k plus multiplying by 6 for non registered users is wrong. 



> A combination of plummeting road usage and an increasing number of users failing to pay e-tolls, says the publication, has resulted in a system that, as it stands, is not only unsustainable, but also a drain on the economy as administration fees eat into EP’s already scrawny profits.


 From Itweb article 
So there is precedent elsewhere that this doesn't work. 
My take is lets all protest this in whatever way we feel will have the most impact without distorting the situation, we will leave that to SANRAL and the Government.

----------


## ians

The reference to a "freeway" is no longer valid, we gona have to start calling them Highways (highway robbery). :Wink: 

All it will take is one road block, a trip to a police cell for the night and you will be wanting to give your house away to pay a year in advance for tolls. :Oops:

----------


## Blurock

> This is a one hell of leap in logic, look at petrol from R7/l a few years ago to R13/l now. I am sure this did not cause prices to double.
> .


You may be earning enough (with increases) not to realise that prices are doubling. 




> South African consumers' grocery costs are increasing at almost three times the rate of inflation, debt management company DebtBusters said on Friday. 
> "DebtBusters clients are spending more and more money on essentials due to the consistent rising costs of consumer goods and services," CEO Ian Wason said in a statement.
> Most high-income clients - those earning R20 000 and above - suffered a 14.1% increase in food expenses in the past nine months.


You may be too young to remember, but in 1975 one could buy a Mercedes Benz 450 SLC for R50k or a 280 S class for R5500. A decent 100% wool suit for R120. In 1990 one could buy a decent 3 brm house in Durban North for R300k - R450k. You'll be lucky if you can get anything below R2m today. From 1980 to 2010 the nominal house prices in South Africa increased from R36k to R1,036k! Every cent added to the fiscus has a knock on effect and has an influence on price increases. That is why wasteful expenditure by the state may not be tolerated. Not even a new pool for your president.

Considering an average inflation rate of 6%, prices will double in less than 12 years. At 8% it will double in 9 years. We all know that prices don't rise in single figures...

----------


## Dave A

A few thoughts:

Slowing down or non-payment of the eTolls could be seen as passive resistance. Using the right to protest could make an interesting defence against a *criminal* conviction.

I see a law firm has offered to defend _pro bono_ the first case pursued for non-payment. It will be interesting to see how that first test case plays out.




> How much of the cost was wasted on sophisticated Electronic spyware to automate the direct billing system?


Perhaps the real objective was to deploy all that spyware. What other uses could all those photos be put to? 

Big Brother is watching you  :EEK!:

----------


## Citizen X

_Conspiracy theories are plain compelling!_ They make for good entertainment, but some are so true, that you simply have to turn to the university of common sense to see.
_Suppose_ I offered a legitimate business product i.e. a personal tracking device for you and I only gave you a certain set of facts and thereby information. Initially courtesy of me, I provide to you free of charge so that I can track you _wherever you!_
_
Suppose I further told_ you that someday, I’ll not only charge for this tracking device but I’ll create such a need in you that you’ll freely buy and keep it operational for my tracking purpose but because I’m an entrepreneur and I don’t necessarily want you to fully benefit so I design each tracking device so that it stops working on or about a maximum of 3 years after purchase thereby forcing you to repurchase.!
Interested in this device? Just have a look at your cell phone!! So, there’s not really a conspiracy here but the potential to reinvent and turn into conspiracy remains realistically open to the most devious of minds..

----------

tec0 (30-Nov-13)

----------


## tec0

Well soon the human body will get its own RFID tracking system “already being implemented in most first world countries. They do this in the name of Public safety. See with this device inside you they can find you identify where you where and if you had anything to do with whatever they are investigating. 

Now this RFID can be linked to you income, bank, medical and tax system. You will no longer need money because it is inside of you, you will no longer need a credit card because it is inside of you. Your tax will be automated as will your transactions be. SO!!!! 

Why is this a bad thing? Well if you turn this RFID off you cannot survive because you will not be able to buy food, go to the doctor get your medication or anything like that. Is it scary? YES! Why? Because who will be in control of those RFID chips and can you trust them?

----------


## Blurock

> Well soon the human body will get its own RFID tracking system already being implemented in most first world countries. They do this in the name of Public safety. See with this device inside you they can find you identify where you where and if you had anything to do with whatever they are investigating. 
> 
> Now this RFID can be linked to you income, bank, medical and tax system. You will no longer need money because it is inside of you, you will no longer need a credit card because it is inside of you. Your tax will be automated as will your transactions be. SO!!!! 
> 
> Why is this a bad thing? Well if you turn this RFID off you cannot survive because you will not be able to buy food, go to the doctor get your medication or anything like that. Is it scary? YES! Why? Because who will be in control of those RFID chips and can you trust them?


666 :Confused:

----------


## tec0

> 666


Hi Blurock, if you don’t mind lets avoid a theological discussion. As you may know I have to avoid the local gangs. It makes it increasingly difficult to have free and open discussions. That said I sometimes wonder why so much control is needed. They claim it is for their security but who knows what the data, and personal info will be used for. Remember your every move will be tracked your every interaction will be noted on a computer and someone will be taking notes and using them.       

See in South Africa the system will be used to track our cars. Now in the future I see you being billed for the use of your own car. This will force you to use public transport more and more. So who will benefit? Not the motorist and thus I question the need for this system. After all we paying a lot just for petrol, car registration and personal licence. 

Also this system will cost us more then what it will benefit us so again I  question motive.

----------


## ians

It is just a pity they cant put it to good use and reduce crime stats  :Frown:

----------


## tec0

> It is just a pity they cant put it to good use and reduce crime stats


Crime exists because poverty exists. Get rid of poverty and you rid yourself of crime for the most part. Second aspect to crime are sadism and greed. Make all money traceable so that greed can be traced and sadism... simply state there will a time where we will find the cause and perhaps end it there. Still all are dreams till someone makes them a reality.

----------


## Justloadit

> Well soon the human body will get its own RFID tracking system already being implemented in most first world countries. They do this in the name of Public safety. See with this device inside you they can find you identify where you where and if you had anything to do with whatever they are investigating. 
> 
> Now this RFID can be linked to you income, bank, medical and tax system. You will no longer need money because it is inside of you, you will no longer need a credit card because it is inside of you. Your tax will be automated as will your transactions be. SO!!!! 
> 
> Why is this a bad thing? Well if you turn this RFID off you cannot survive because you will not be able to buy food, go to the doctor get your medication or anything like that. Is it scary? YES! Why? Because who will be in control of those RFID chips and can you trust them?





> See in South Africa the system will be used to track our cars. Now in the future I see you being billed for the use of your own car. This will force you to use public transport more and more. So who will benefit? Not the motorist and thus I question the need for this system. After all we paying a lot just for petrol, car registration and personal licence.





> Crime exists because poverty exists. Get rid of poverty and you rid yourself of crime for the most part. Second aspect to crime are sadism and greed. Make all money traceable so that greed can be traced and sadism... simply state there will a time where we will find the cause and perhaps end it there. Still all are dreams till someone makes them a reality.


Contradictory?

----------


## IanF

> International history shows us that tolling projects, especially those of an electronic tolling (e-tolling) nature, suffer and are prone to failure if they do not have the committed acceptance and buy-in to the scheme by the public at large. This is generally happens when there is a lack of trust in the system, caused by poor transparency and high costs related to the project. In the case of Gauteng’s freeway tolling project, these issues have been highly prevalent as a result of a meaningless public engagement exercise, secret contracts (blanked out pages), many examples of misleading and false information and the competition commission’s exposure of high road construction costs through collusion. Add to this the fact that the Electronic Tolling Company’s JV won the tender of the e-toll collection at a cost to society of R8,4bn for the first five-year period (with a part thereof being capital costs over eight years), which indicates that well over R1bn per annum will go toward the administration and management costs before roads are paid for.


This if from Daily Maverick article by Wayne Duvenage 
So the more people who don't register and wait for the invoice and dispute it the better. This is going to be an interesting few months.

----------


## tec0

Well I don't go to the main city anymore so it will not affect my life that much. But I have a bad feeling that every main road in the country will soon have an e-toll system. And that's not good  :No:

----------


## Citizen X

The *invoice* angle..

1. The ‘e-road,’ regulations was gazetted on 9 October 2013. It’s gazette number 36911.

2. The point of departure is section 6(5) of the schedule to the main Act which reads
 
 If an alternate user does not pay the toll contemplated in terms of sub-regulation (4) within the time and at the place and subject to the conditions that the Agency may make known and determine, *the Agency must* within 32 days after the alternate user has used an e-road but after expiry of the grace period and unless the user has registered, *send an invoice to the said user*, to the last known address provided in terms of the National Road Traffic Act by such user, reflecting the amount of the toll payable and such invoice shall be paid by the said user on or before the date reflected on the invoice.

3. The use of the words ‘shall,’ and ‘must,’ are obligatory or mandatory. This is a peremptory statutory provision.

----------


## Blurock

> Crime exists because poverty exists. Get rid of poverty and you rid yourself of crime for the most part. Second aspect to crime are sadism and greed. Make all money traceable so that greed can be traced and sadism... simply state there will a time where we will find the cause and perhaps end it there. Still all are dreams till someone makes them a reality.


I am sorry my friend, but there is no way in hell that I can agree with you. Some of the most honest people I know come from the poorest backgrounds. Poverty may cause the occasional petty theft when the opportunity arises, but organised crime (or instatutionalised crime in the case of government) is reserved for the rich and powerful. 

Crime is fueled by greed and a lust for power. Look at politicians and big business and look at who is making the headlines. The amounts involved is much more than the tin of food or loaf of bread to feed a hungry child.

Why does 'nSkandla come to mind now... :Confused:

----------

Dave A (03-Dec-13), ians (03-Dec-13)

----------


## ians

I agree, what a load of crap, the armed robbers arrive at your house in the latest BMW's, dressed in quality clothing, and they speak like they are educated. The criminals which would be targeted by the cameras would be the ones who have just left with your vehicle, not the petty thief who steals your weed eater to go make a living, they not the ones I am concerned about I have insurance for them. 

The ones I and I am sure many other "South Africans" are concerned about are the ruthless armed robber, rapists who walk into your house through the front door armed better than the SADF and prepared to kill, rape and torture just for the hell of it, speak to you in a calm manner like they have done it on many occasion, knowing even the South African police services are scared of them, that is why they take so long to get to your house, in case they end up in a shoot out. They also know these people will kill their whole family if they interfere. 

A good example is the recent hijacking in JHB, the oke stands in the middle of the road with an AK 47, no cops to be seen, quite honestly I believe if they where driving past they would also have just kept driving, I would bet money on it that those people where never caught.

We have handed in our firearms, there is no SADF anymore and the police caught handle the crime, which has got so out of control that communities are having to tackle the crime problem which is also a loosing battle...In a nutshell we are pretty F%^&*

----------


## Jacques#1

OK, to get back to E tolling.  I did my first trip today, viva no toll viva.  

What am I going to plead when standing in fornt of the judge: CALLING ALL LAYWERS!!

I cant plead poverty - a simple bank statement would scrap that argument.
I cant say im on debt councilling - P.S. This would be interesting?  Driving around the highway costs more petrol, so you have to be on it, yet youre on debt councilling, what would the jusge say then?
Can you possibly say that your constitutional right to information was infringed...youre paying for something the government does not want to break down in detail?

Or, if you plead guilty, will the judge require you to pay the costs associated with the collection of moneys, or just the outstanding amount/warrant?

Im in the No toll resistance, how do we fight it in court in front of the judge, or do we pay the day before you get to court?

----------


## Jacques#1

come clever guys? what would you do to avoid the backyard death penalty in prison, yet resist like a politician?

----------


## Dave A

> What am I going to plead when standing in fornt of the judge: CALLING ALL LAYWERS!!


I'm looking forward to hearing the arguments put forward too. And how it all pans out in the end. It's not a problem that faces me right now though. 

However, I have put a bit of thought into what one should probably do until that all important first case sets the precedent. And that depends on your situation.

If you're a business and you're doing a lot of travelling on the tolled freeways, for goodness sake by an e-tag. 
It's probably not financially beneficial to rigidly use the alternative routes. 
The big bill recipients are going to be targets.
The stakes are just too high to gamble on how this is going to break.

Same probably applies to many folk who have a long daily commute where using alternative routes could pile an hour or more on your travelling time each day.

But if it costs you just 15 minutes a day or less to avoid a tolled route - it starts getting interesting.

Ultimately the best positioned folk to thumb their nose at the system are those who will get a bill of... under R100 per month perhaps (even better if it's under R50).
Gaming the system to force the extra admin burden would seem to head into the realm of reasonably significant protest action.

If it's viable to avoid a tolled route, or a toll gantry if you are in that middle ground (about R100 to R450 per month), by all means do it. Much lower than expected income will get noticed. 

The much lower traffic levels on the tolled highways today certainly made the news. Will everyone be able to hold out long enough for government to blink first?

----------

Citizen X (04-Dec-13)

----------


## tec0

Truth is learn to live with it. What else can we do? Clearly the decision was made not caring what we think. So based on what we know they will just use the law to hurt you so badly that you have to pay them... But then are we still a free country? Makes one wonder  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

----------


## Upstairs

I decided to buy a motorcycle. By using backroads I can get to my destination in half the time it takes on their "improved " system. Ask any Joburger who sits in traffic every morning. I shall not fiil the pockets of these idiots. Look at the cost to implement and maintain the system compared to the profits they make. The goverment should not be allowed to make profit from its citizens. Have a look at this video clip about civil obedience. It is worth watching. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S2li9E_94MA

----------

desA (04-Dec-13)

----------


## Dave S

Fortunately, I live only 10Km from work and I don't need to use a highway for this commute, the only time I use highways is when I need to visit family out on the farm, the rest all live in close proximity. When I do use a highway, I'm certainly not going to buy an e-tag, or a day-pass, they will have to invoice me, and if (that's a big if) their km's travelled matches my readings, I might pay, if the figures don't match, I won't, I'll just send them an e-mail stating that their figures are incorrect, they must correct the invoice before I pay.

----------


## IanF

Dave I also agree in the pragmatic approach. I offered to drop my daughter off at the airport early Saturday and can easliy avoid the tolls with a bit of planning.
But go through 1 or 2 tolls a month might be a plan. For business we don't need to use the tolls and for the PITA deliveries use a courier but there rates have gone up.

----------


## Blurock

> Truth is learn to live with it. What else can we do? Clearly the decision was made not caring what we think. So based on what we know they will just use the law to hurt you so badly that you have to pay them... But then are we still a free country? Makes one wonder


Defeatist attitude? We have also learned to live with apartheid. Do we now have to learn to live with corruption too?

----------


## Hermes14

I went to pick n pay this morning & one of the tellers told me they had run out of etags.
Apparently there were jelly fish complaining that pick n pay weren't stocking enough etags.
Sanral claim the information you give them is safe.
They have lied about this & a whole lot of other things as well before.
Would you believe them now?
Good luck to you if you do but don't complain it your information is compromised.

----------


## AndyD

> Defeatist attitude? We have also learned to live with apartheid. Do we now have to learn to live with corruption too?


South Africans are good at learning to live with things for a quiet life, for that matter so are the English but there was one tax that pushed them over the edge which was the poll tax. This tax was the straw that broke the camels back and I was involved in several protests about this tax whilst I was at Uni and they all ended up in pitched battles with the police. 

These riots taught me a lot of things, they taught me how to roll over parked vehicles, how to make good Molotov coctails, how to deal with tear gas, it taught me a lot about crowd mentality and riot police mentality and strategies as well as how to survive overnight in a holding cell but most of all it taught me that even nationwide mass protests in the form of prolonged pitched police street battles didn't make the tax go away. Eventually the tax was called a different name but it's still around today in one form or another and all the burning cars in all the different cities made not one iota of difference in the long game.

I'm going to make some predictions, there's going to be a whole lot of rhetoric and some fairly mild initial resistance to buying the e-tags. After a month or two of using the minor roads and getting billed at double the e-tag prices 90% of the armchair terrorists are going to exit quietly stage left. There will be a very small minority, the kinds of people who usually pick up stray dogs and try find them homes who'll latch onto it as a 'worthy cause' and will show some long term backbone but they'll be occasional users who's business (or more likely vocational employment) doesn't depend on being streamlined and they won't even give the system a small migrane let alone a full blown headache that'll bring it to its knees.  Tell you what, I'll come back in March or April and open a poll to find out how many people are still fighting the good fight  :Wink: .

----------

Citizen X (05-Dec-13), Dave A (05-Dec-13), Mike C (05-Dec-13)

----------


## Justloadit

Andy, SANRALand the politicians are counting on this, and use the words, that South Africans are law abiding citizens.

----------


## Dave S

Maybe this is why they want e-tolls?
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=fe1_1383365383

----------


## IanF

Dave brilliant video thanks for sharing. Will our public transport ever be up to our needs? 
 :Confused:

----------


## IMHO

Very interesting Andy. Let's hope you are right, because the alternative is very grave and can cause a lot of property damage and loss of human life. Cosatu announced they will start their actions in January, lets hope they are truthful. Another thing is, in your day, the security forces was better equipped and trained to handle these things. And what about the militancy of the protesters of today, dark forces at work to cause anarchy and trying to destabilize the country to take over government?

There is also those that reckon Mr Mandela's death is about to be announced. All military and police leave has been canceled for December as well. These things does not bode well. We know what the urban myth is saying and if we should have these two things happening at the same time, Gauteng, especially Johannesburg, can be in for a very rough time. The crucial timing is the long weekend coming up and the period immediately after.

We can only hope that Mr Mandela's family is honest in what they are saying about his health. The country definitely do not need this type of #$%.

----------


## Dave S

> Dave brilliant video thanks for sharing. Will our public transport ever be up to our needs?


I doubt it, if you think of the cost implications, they're going to need a lot more than the tolls to finance it, do I perhaps see some more half-cocked ideas to fleece us coming soon?

----------


## Citizen X

*The propaganda machine*: Funny how Sanral would choose 3 December as a starting date, many companies are closed, schools are closed, many people are off on vacation. So common sense would tell me that the roads would be quieter. Let’s wait for next year to measure i.e. 3 December 2014.
*Don’t rule out your many ‘Citizen X,’* personalities, “ yes, send me the invoice, send me the summons and by the way I’m disputing amounts and saying you can’t prove that my vehicle was caught on camera during that heavy fog and subsequent heavy storm(The weather angle)
Citizen e-tag(I buy my e-tag community). _This is a mixed bag_, senseless, making sweeping generalizations! But even *some* e-tag holders may just prove to be bad payers, we can only say come 3 December 2014

----------


## IMHO

Spot on Vanash. Timing is everything.




> Funny how Sanral would choose 3 December as a starting date

----------


## Dave S

> *The propaganda machine*: Funny how Sanral would choose 3 December as a starting date, many companies are closed, schools are closed, many people are off on vacation. So common sense would tell me that the roads would be quieter. Let’s wait for next year to measure i.e. 3 December 2014.
> *Don’t rule out your many ‘Citizen X,’* personalities, “ yes, send me the invoice, send me the summons and by the way I’m disputing amounts and saying you can’t prove that my vehicle was caught on camera during that heavy fog and subsequent heavy storm(The weather angle)
> Citizen e-tag(I buy my e-tag community). _This is a mixed bag_, senseless, making sweeping generalizations! But even *some* e-tag holders may just prove to be bad payers, we can only say come 3 December 2014


I see where you're going with this, I too have pondered the significance of Dec. 3, and though the roads are getting quieter, I can't think of what angle (and there must be an angle) they are using that will benefit them at the elections, unless they're purposefully trying to get votes for Malema's party instead (?) At any rate, it's going to be an interesting year ahead.

----------

Citizen X (16-Dec-13)

----------


## Justloadit

SANRAL did not set the date, it was set by the minister of Transport, and was i day earlier than what the law stipulates. It required 14 days after the date of announcement, and yet when the Freedom Front present it's case to the judge, the judge stated that it was not urgent as it could be stopped at a later date. Now tell me that there is no underhand coalition here between government and justice?

And if it stopped at a later date, does that mean that SANRAL will return the money it has collected to that date?

----------


## Dave S

> ...and if it stopped at a later date, does that mean that SANRAL will return the money it has collected to that date?


Yeah, and I saw a pink elephant fly over my house last night, he also had a band of blue pigs with him... :Rofl:

----------


## wynn

I fear that this will be the outcome?

----------


## Justloadit

I've seen a horse fly
I've seen a house fly,
but I aint seen an elephant fly  :Smile:

----------


## adrianh

I heard two interesting things about e-Tolls on Cape Talk / 702 at 12. 

The government said that taxis are except from paying e-tolls...great. So, how does the e-toll system recognize a taxi: the taxi owner has to take his taxi permit to the e-toll offices so as to get the tag. The tag is then encoded so that the system recognizes the vehicle as a taxi. Now, the rub is that the government is over a year behind with issuing taxi permits and it takes more than 6 month to transfer ownership of said permit...So, the government has implemented a system arse about face yet again.

The other interesting thing is that the postal workers have been negotiating pay increases with the government. The government doesn't want to meet their demands so they are going on strike...but...this is a special strike. They will deliver all mail except e-toll bills. They say that they are within their legal rights to withhold their labour when they strike and they feel that this time they are going to hit their employer....Cool bananas!

----------


## IMHO

So, will you be able to buy an e-tag that has been hacked to indicate you are a taxi, on the black market?

----------

desA (06-Dec-13)

----------


## Dave S

> So, will you be able to buy an e-tag that has been hacked to indicate you are a taxi, on the black market?


All in due time my son...

----------

desA (06-Dec-13)

----------


## Blurock

So while we are raving about Gauteng, moves are under way to introduce e-tolls in Durban and Cape Town.

It will start with reduced tolls and then 12-18 months later prices will increase by.....?

Why does government not listen to the people? The knock on effect due to increased prices of transport and products will be enormous. The only way you can stop this is to stop government. Let the people rule!

----------


## Blurock

A brilliant piece of journalism and oh so true.




> Whose freeway is it anyway?
> 
> 
> 
> By Mondli Magwaza
> 
> Friday, October 25, 2013 
> 
> Share on email
> ...

----------


## Blurock

I am a-political and do not support any politician or their parties. The present government is however forcing me to react to their policies and ongoing corruption. The only way to get a party out of power is not to vote it into power in the first place. :Cool:

----------


## IMHO

> A brilliant piece of journalism and oh so true.


Agreed. How can we give this more prominence?

Twitter the sh@# out of this link.

http://www.news24.com/MyNews24/Whose...nyway-20131025

----------


## Citizen X

> Just to add to whatever has already been said on e-tolling….
> 
> A *legal* philosophy that supports the outcry of citizens against e-tolling
> 
> *John Locke
> *
> Now not being the time for me to engage in philosophical discourse as I have to face a few philosophers in exams soon[discourse at this time would drive me crazy!!]. 
> 
> Notwithstanding this I have only _fairly recently_ gained respect for John Locke and Critical Legal Studies in particular Dr Duncan Kennedy.
> ...


the following two links are immensely informative[to what is happening in SA today]

http://www.lonang.com/exlibris/locke/

http://www.efm.bris.ac.uk/het/locke/government.pdf

In 1690 John Locke starts his treatise by boldly stating that his work is the beginning and end of *all* discussion concerning government!

----------


## Phil Cooper

Client of mine registered for etag months ago.

Has NOT set wheel on the etoll roads yet.

Has received statements showing deductions for usage .....

----------


## Trickzta

I heard on 702 that of the many vehicles using the N1, only about 1% had tags.

Government vehicles are tagged and not tolled (correct me if I'm wrong) and would be included in that 1%.

Early days still, but I think that this is going to be even more embarassing than I originally thought.

Marvelous to have this piece of arrogant corruption to unite the nation as we speak out as one voice.

Great nation building block, great stumbling block and hurdle for the enforcers. 

Possibly the timing was planned to minimise the effect of disruptive protests, anticipated by the authorities.

Viva the resistance! Africans unite!

----------


## IanF

Our local post office said they haven't seen any etoll invoices yet in the post. Maybe the post office workers won't sort the invoices as they said they would.
This is going to get interesting!

----------


## Citizen X

> Our local post office said they haven't seen any etoll invoices yet in the post. Maybe the post office workers won't sort the invoices as they said they would.
> This is going to get interesting!


Indeed, the post office needs a thread on its own, they a shocking of a shambles when it comes to receiving your post on time, strikes and such other problems..

----------


## Citizen X

> I heard on 702 that of the many vehicles using the N1, only about 1% had tags.
> 
> Government vehicles are tagged and not tolled (correct me if I'm wrong) and would be included in that 1%.
> 
> Early days still, but I think that this is going to be even more embarassing than I originally thought.
> 
> Marvelous to have this piece of arrogant corruption to unite the nation as we speak out as one voice.
> 
> Great nation building block, great stumbling block and hurdle for the enforcers. 
> ...


I listen to Radio 702 as well! I try and tune in whenever possible, but mostly between 5am and 6am. This Radio Station is really for the people of South Africa. I think that many South Africans don't realise what a big role this radio station plays in keeping us properly informed...

----------


## Hermes14

Originally poster by tny

http://tny.cz/ef11db01

SANRAL E-TOLL WEBSITE VULNERABILITY

              By Moe1

SECURITY ADVISORY

DOCUMENT ID: v1.0

RISK LEVEL : CRITICAL


DISCLAIMER

The information provided in this document is for educational purposes only. The author is in no way responsible for any misuse of the information. The author insists that such information should never be used for malicious purposes. 

INTRODUCTION

The SANRAL e-Tolls website allows users to register their e-tags online and provides a service where by customers can monitor, pay and track their e-toll accounts. The website contains sensitive customer information such as ID numbers, car number plates, postal addresses, payment methods etc. therefore it is crucial that SANRAL ensure it is secured and user data is protected. The purpose of this report is to display the false sense of security the website portrays by highlighting a simple vulnerability which exist due to a lack of basic web application security logic.

OVERVIEW

When a user registers on the website for the first time the account is put into a pre-registration state. The account will remain in a pre-registration state until the user confirms the account by clicking on a link provided in a confirmation email. This pre-registration confirmation link contains a serious security problem where by it provides the users pin number on the confirmation screen. Using this link an attacker can inject another username into it which would result in the confirmation page containing the pin number of another user.

VULNERABILITY DEMO  HACK AN E-TOLL ACCOUNT IN 5 SECONDS


1. Browse to the SANRAL e-toll login page. https://www.sanral.co.za/e-toll/portal/default.aspx
2. Okay so you have the USERNAME and the VERIFICATION CODE that is provided. To get the users PIN all you need to do is browse to the pre-registration confirmation link and specify the USERNAME.

http://www.sanral.co.za/e-toll/porta...me=jasonbourne
   (Notice the pin of that users account is provided! To view it in clear-text simply view the pages source)

3. Now that you have the pin go back to the login screen, enter username, pin and verification code provided.
4. And there you have it an e-toll account hacked in 5 seconds!

PROOF OF CONCEPT EXPLOIT

http://tinyurl.com/melw4nw

VIDEO DEMO

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cacn2vRWzF8

CONCLUSION

It is great that SANRAL informs you to keep your pin safe in their Terms and conditions but its not very great that they give out your pin to anyone that basically requests for it.

----------

Citizen X (08-Jan-14), Trickzta (08-Jan-14)

----------


## Trickzta

We're on the road to nowhere! Mixups galore.

Already, the Sanral system is self-destructing. The continued boycott of e-tags by motorists must continue.

The only way that Sanral can make the system become a cash-cow is when motorists submit.

I've totally avoided the roads, but come next week the roads will become busy again. Then users may be forced to use the highways.

Don't pay. Ask for proof. Tie the system up with paperwork. It is not enforcable to insist that motorists get tagged.
http://www.fin24.com/MyFin24/Feedbac...ng-in-20140105

More weird messages in these links.

http://www.fin24.com/MyFin24/E-toll-...tinue-20140106

http://www.fin24.com/MyFin24/More-e-...rises-20140106

----------

Citizen X (08-Jan-14)

----------


## Justloadit

Just received my first eToll invoice via post.
I am in a bit of a dilemma, as the vehicle belongs to a Trust, and as a Trustee, mu fiduciary duty is to always ensure that the trust is not prejudiced in any way by the control of the trustee.

Anyway, that is a discussion for another day.
On the invoice, albeit a small one for R36.00, it has pictures of each time the vehicle passed the gantry with date and time stamp, it also has almost a 50% discount if paid with in 10 days.
They are really trying very hard to get motorists to pay.

I was considering, that if I was to pay the invoice not sure yet if i will, I was going to use a cheque to make the payment to get the receiving bank to charge a cheque deposit fee, but I also received a letter from Standard bank that they are now going to charge a flat rate of R45.00 for each cheque issued on the account that I would be using, a bit of a bummer to the consumer.

----------


## Citizen X

> Just received my first eToll invoice via post.
> I am in a bit of a dilemma, as the vehicle belongs to a Trust, and as a Trustee, mu fiduciary duty is to always ensure that the trust is not prejudiced in any way by the control of the trustee.
> 
> Anyway, that is a discussion for another day.
> On the invoice, albeit a small one for R36.00, it has pictures of each time the vehicle passed the gantry with date and time stamp, it also has almost a 50% discount if paid with in 10 days.
> They are really trying very hard to get motorists to pay.
> 
> I was considering, that if I was to pay the invoice not sure yet if i will, I was going to use a cheque to make the payment to get the receiving bank to charge a cheque deposit fee, but I also received a letter from Standard bank that they are now going to charge a flat rate of R45.00 for each cheque issued on the account that I would be using, a bit of a bummer to the consumer.


First hand feedback such as this allows one to put things into perspective

----------


## Jacques#1

If you listened to Jacaranda yesterday they spoke to Vusi, the SANRAL spokesperson.  He admitted that the sms's and the phonecalls does not dictate an invoice, as they will still send the invoice later, and was not denying the fact that you dont have to pay without a proper invoice, so their 7 day story is bull, to start with.  Then a listener phoned in and said their vehicles are business use, and they need a VAT invoice before paying according to the VAT act, Vusi replied by saying that the business vehicle passing through a normal toll gate would do so without receiving an invoice first, what the poor man forgets, is if you pass through the conventional tollgates you request a receipt immediately, ag shame, he probably didnt know that.  Then his excuse for paying immediately is the discounts, a caller said he requested his amount from the call centre, and they refused to give him the amount, stating he must register first, old Vusi denied this, stating that they must give you the amount outstanding, once again, the left hand does not know what the right hand is doing.  I am so far on R90 and R78 for two cars, not quite sure how I got 18 units on one car since I know I passed the tollgates only about 6 times?  P.S.  I got the amounts by using a loophole in the SANRAL website, no registration web registration etc. :Stick Out Tongue:

----------

Citizen X (08-Jan-14)

----------


## Citizen X

> If you listened to Jacaranda yesterday they spoke to Vusi, the SANRAL spokesperson. He admitted that the sms's and the phonecalls does not dictate an invoice, as they will still send the invoice later, and was not denying the fact that you dont have to pay without a proper invoice, so their 7 day story is bull, to start with. Then a listener phoned in and said their vehicles are business use, and they need a VAT invoice before paying according to the VAT act, Vusi replied by saying that the business vehicle passing through a normal toll gate would do so without receiving an invoice first, what the poor man forgets, is if you pass through the conventional tollgates you request a receipt immediately, ag shame, he probably didnt know that. Then his excuse for paying immediately is the discounts, a caller said he requested his amount from the call centre, and they refused to give him the amount, stating he must register first, old Vusi denied this, stating that they must give you the amount outstanding, once again, the left hand does not know what the right hand is doing. I am so far on R90 and R78 for two cars, not quite sure how I got 18 units on one car since I know I passed the tollgates only about 6 times? P.S. I got the amounts by using a loophole in the SANRAL website, no registration web registration etc.


A picture is being drawn right here by South Africans, a clear reflection if you will! 

All this feedback allows one not only to understand this e-tolling system in practice but also to demonstrate that there are real problems and not imaginary ones.

----------


## Hermes14

Until today Standard bank were offering free etags.
After some people threatened to close their accounts I see they have removed the page.
Proudly etag free also commented on it.
https://www.facebook.com/proudly.eta...ation=timeline

----------


## Trickzta

10 year old gets SMS from Sanrail for toll fees! (702 Radio today)

Plus the claim of 900,000 registrations is challenged.
“The government is just gangsters in nice suits.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/27/wo...t&emc=rss&_r=0

----------

Citizen X (09-Jan-14)

----------


## sterne.law@gmail.com

Hmm...
Is SANRAL a registered credit provider?

----------


## AndyD

Shouldn't be too long now before the lawyers and advocates get busy with the first legal wrangles over the billing and start establishing the case-law for similar future cases.

----------


## Blurock

All this appaers to be evidence piling up to strengthen the case against e-tolling. With a president dabbling in witchcraft and parlementarians engaging in stone age barbaric practices, can we now expect some spell to be cast upon those who do not comply?

----------


## Justloadit

We will send the tokolosh after you if you do not pay! OK!
If that does not move you, then I will get your ancestors to bestow bad luck on you!

----------


## Trickzta

Tag or tagless 'free'way users have access to camera images.

I'm not sure what the setup is, but here's the link that caught my eye.

Would've opened the link if I could see the photos as well, oh well they'll get around to it one day.  :Wink: 

http://m.engineeringnews.co.za/artic...13/rep_id:3182

----------


## Justloadit

The main issue here will be that upon registering a user name and password, it will request your email address, under the guise as a contact email to validate your user name and also to send a password in the case that you forget it. Then wham bam emails will arrive at your box with invoices attached. 

I DO NOT TRUST THEM.

----------


## IanF

Still waiting for an invoice been through 2 gantries. I see the DA has a court case against them starting 4 March. But this will probably go the same as the other cases. Also we can try and "demand" we get the Afrikaans tariffs

----------


## Phil Cooper

Don't know.

PART of the Court Case is that Buses and Taxis should NOT be exempt - user pays principle, and they are users....

----------


## Citizen X

All this feedback lends great perspective..

----------


## IanF

I feel buses and taxis should be free based on less congestion . But then we also need better public transport.

----------


## sterne.law@gmail.com

Re buses and taxis -
Clearly the thinking was that those using taxis and buses are mostly the lower earners and an attempt to keep costs down, a fair enough thought process.. It may also have been not to raise the ire of taxi commuters (but I dont think government expected such an outcry.), and probably a realisation that they have no control over this industry and collection was not going to happen.

However based on the R500 capping that equates to a standard (not overloaded) minibus of R25 a day or R1.50 a person) or R30 a month pe r person. Even at a salary of R3000-00 thats 1% whereas a car commuter on a salary of R8000-00 is looking at 6.25%, hardly fair, thats a substantial chunk of change.

----------


## Phil Cooper

Trouble is that to get an exemption, taxis must produce their registration / licence docs.

They cannot - the Guvmint is so far in arrears that guys who legitimately have submitted what is wanted are waiting 2 years ....

So they are now getting demands....

It had nothing to do with the poor!  The taxis said if they had to pay they would wreck the places.  And they will!

----------


## Justloadit

So how are the taxis doing it now?
Is SANRAL simply making a human based decision that a specific vehicle is a taxi, and simply flag it as a taxi?
Are the taxis registered as a taxi/public vehicle at the vehicle license department?
So what is the difference if you tell them that your Vito/mini bus is a taxi, and therefor exempt?

----------


## IanF

I wonder if any taxi owners have got etoll bills yet.  :Gunsmilie: 
The arrogance been shown by sanral Vusi Mona called to resign   reminds of Eskom and their handling of the power crisis. Humility is not a trait.

----------


## Trickzta

Maybe not news to all, some Political parties to submit complaints on the public's behalf.

Public must engage with Service Provider first.

List of common problems.

The best one I've heard on Radio 702 today was an old blind man who didn't own a car, was billed.

My take on some wrong billing is that the re-issue of cell numbers confuses the issue.

http://m.engineeringnews.co.za/artic...21/rep_id:3182

----------


## Trickzta

Etolls connected to alternate routes. rolling stock and buses.

“A total of 2 800 trains will be delivered next year in Gauteng,” said Maharaj.

In addition, Johannesburg, Tshwane and Ekurhuleni had detailed plans to roll out bus rapid transit systems, which would cost some R10-billion. 

http://m.engineeringnews.co.za/artic...17/rep_id:3182

----------


## Justloadit

Tell you what pisses my goat



> “Some information that is important for consumers to know appears not to have found its way into the public domain in a visible way. One is that workers travelling in buses and taxis are exempted from e-tolls, as these modes of transport pass through the gantries free of charge.
> 
> “Transport services in South Africa are ably supported by the minibus taxi industry, ferrying about 60% of the population in Gauteng daily. They form an integral part of the integrated transport system value chain,” commented presidential spokesperson Mac Maharaj.


What a load of propaganda piss, so when every one is using the bus transit/taxi system, then how are they going to collect the money from eTolls with no road users? Is this when they increase the cost of eTolls to the few who use it, or are they going to start charging the taxis tolls?

Same crap as with the electricity hikes, when they assumed that after increasing the cost of electricity, the amount of units consumed would remain static, which did not and forced another higher hike in rates.

All hogwash - stand firm.

----------


## CLIVE-TRIANGLE

I finally received an invoice with an attached transaction report.

The transaction report details the gate, the date and time and the charge. It even has three sample photos.

To be frank, I have absolutely no complaints with the invoice; even the discount is analyzed.

----------


## Trickzta

S.A. could make much more use of solar power, robots or traffic lights, even street lights and advertising boards and much more if we applied ourselves could benefit from this technology.

http://m.engineeringnews.co.za/artic...24/rep_id:3182

Still no account from Sanral. Surely the onus is on them to supply an invoice, or do I have to ask for one?

----------


## wynn

I was reading an article in the 'Daily Maverick' about etolling and had a lateral epiphany.

If you buy an e-tag but don't keep it in your car, then any time you get photographed going through a gantry, you can claim it is a cloned numberplate because why? you have a tag!

Let them prove that you don't use it! I don't think they can.

----------


## Justloadit

What if you have an e-tag, but want it to be universal, in other words, you drive all sorts of vehicles, every day, if you stick the tag on the window of a different vehicle, what is the system going to do?
Doc your tag and send an invoice to the original owner?

----------


## Phil Cooper

Tags are linked to specific vehicle.

Tag in wring car - will get billed anyway.

----------


## Justloadit

> Tags are linked to specific vehicle.
> 
> Tag in wring car - will get billed anyway.


So does the tag get billed as well as the car?

----------


## wynn

transport minister admits to faulty e-toll billing


http://mg.co.za/article/2014-02-18-s...billing-system

----------


## Justloadit

> So Nazir Alli did not know that South Africa has a slow internet system?,that is astounding!


I was recently at the theater  enjoying the "Rocky Horror Show"

and in one of the songs - The Time Warp, these lyrics struck the nail on the head

It's astounding, time is fleeting
Madness takes its toll
But listen closely, not for very much longer
I've got to keep control

I remember doing the Time Warp
Drinking those moments when
The blackness would hit me and the void would be calling
Let's do the time warp again...
Let's do the time warp again!

----------


## Citizen X

What would the *fictitious* ‘Lone Ranger,’ Say. The Lone Ranger would simply say:



*“If these men represent the law and justice, I’d rather be an outlaw!”*



  Photo 1[1]
  Photo 2[2]

 [1] https://www.google.co.za/search?q=pi...er%3B635%3B422. Accessed 21 November 2014

[2] https://www.google.co.za/search?q=pi...er%3B656%3B387. Accessed 21 November 2014

----------

