# Interest group forums > Energy and Resource Conservation Forum >  Reducing Costs-Any tips?

## sterne.law@gmail.com

Any tips for reducing electricity costs or alternatives? In the restaurants the fridges pull huge power and naturally lights, air con and small appliances. At R20 000 a month and looking like R30 000 thats a whack of cash. Any ideas? Solar power, candles anything I will take it!!!! :Banghead:

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BBBEE_CompSpec (09-Nov-09)

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## BBBEE_CompSpec

Solar Power is good but a whack to put up. I know of a place in Jhb that has panels starting at R250 a piece. Then there's a place near Barrydale on the way to Outshoorn that builds Stainless steel Shields that absorb sun rays to convert the heat for you. That is much less expensive. I can get a little info if you're interested.

Then there's your inverter/converter. My uncle produces them in Three Rivers. I need to go there sometime next week to see him. 

My round trip to say good bye to all and sundry. Got given the death penalty today.

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## Dave A

It sounds like you're already using gas for cooking heat. How about gas hot water heaters instead of electricity powered geysers? 

Energy saver lighting, maybe? Although if your restaurant style is low light ambiance, that could be a bit tricky.

If you're considering candles, it might be an idea to look at paraffin lamps. When the wick is set right, they are very clean burning and might work out cheaper to run, not to mention having a certain ambiance of their own. Of course more heat being generated in the restaurant means your aircons work harder...

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BBBEE_CompSpec (09-Nov-09), sterne.law@gmail.com (07-Nov-09)

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## Jacques#1

hi...a few tips

LED downlights is expensive to initially install, but lasts for up to 20 000 hours, and use less than 1 watt per bulb.  The costs are around R50 for the 230V housing and R80 for the bulb.  Long term a 100 bulbs running at 10 hours per day is 100W/h = 1kW/h 60c/kW i.e R0.60 x 10 = R6.00.  Even if you are using higher powered LED lights, they are still less than 5 Watt.  A 14 Watt long life doesn't even come close.

For heating in the winter, use underfloor/undercarpet/undertile heating, or an aircon.  I know I am going to get a lot of opions on this, but I have compared prices, and GAS is actually more expensive (size for size).  

If you insulate your premises from the top and bottom, your heating and cooling expenses will be halved.  Pratley makes a additive that you mix in the concrete (pratlyperl), its vacuumed volcanic ash, and in the subfloor gives you excellent insulation.  It can be mixed into the walls as well, drawback is you need to do this on a new building as demo and rebuilding is a bit expensive.  Payback used to be around 5 years (i worked this on installing the product and underfloor heating together).....the way electricity prices are increasing that gap is getting smaller and smaller.

If you contact LAPP Cable, they had an advertisement up there (happened to see) of a company that does wind turbines.....industrial size and smaller, might work well if they can stick it on the roof of a building, don't know the payback though....

Insulate all your boilers/fridges, and get an electrician to do a check on the premises, old and used equipment that the owner doesn't see can sometimes eat at the electricity usage, balanced loads etc.....

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BBBEE_CompSpec (09-Nov-09), Dave A (09-Nov-09), sterne.law@gmail.com (10-Nov-09)

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## BBBEE_CompSpec

This isn't really my forte. This is actually Dave and his troupes area of expertise. But i enjoyed the dig as it got results.

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## wynn

Wohoa!!!!
Shaun, run that death penalty comment past us again? and explain? please?

use a new thread!!

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## DRSP

> Any tips for reducing electricity costs or alternatives? In the restaurants the fridges pull huge power and naturally lights, air con and small appliances. At R20 000 a month and looking like R30 000 thats a whack of cash. Any ideas? Solar power, candles anything I will take it!!!!


I am a student from the Netherlands, and we have tested three communities in pretoria (Poor, average and rich)

We installed advanced measuring equipment in 6 houses per community.
We can conclude that the geyser and the fridges/freezers consume the most of the energy.

We also saw that most geysers were set at 65 or 70 degrees. You can adjust this to about 55-57 degrees (to kill all the germs)

Most fridges and freezers were iced. This was because the rubbers were bad. And then humid air comes in the fridge.freezer. This will condensate and you will get ice.

When you have allot of ice in a freezer it will use 50% more energy to cool the things inside. So defrost your freezer/fridge to save money, adjust geyser.

And you can use for cooking a special pan: the bottom is with the water, the two pans on top have holes to steam the vegetables.
(than you only use one plate of the stove, if you have an electric stove)

These are some simple tips from me.

But a solar water heater is also a sollution. If you live in example cape town, Use a Vacuum tube solar water heater. (this one will also work in cloudy days!)

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Dave A (20-Nov-09)

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## Marq

Is it true that these long life bulbs lose 20% of the lighting capabilities over their life span? I have a number of lights that stay on 24/7 - I am still looking for this 'long life' many hours bulb and have replaced many. I also have had a number of these day/night switched long life bulbs and not one has gone the distance either - they have an extremely short life span. For the price it is very disappointing.

I find that LED lighting is bright within its immediate direct surround but after that one is peering around in the dark. Are the downlighter you talk of Jaques like that?

Also - saw an advert on tv for a new type air conditioner that uses 20% electricity compared to its older buddies. Air cons are essential kit down here in durban so this was welcome news. Only thing is they cost double the old ones.

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## Jacques#1

I guess it depends on your requirements.  LED lights are very directional, and you have to be below the light to get the full effetct, but this is generally the case for a <1Watt standard LED downlight. You get many different types and strenghts.

They are more expensive the higher you go in wattage and the intensity of the light output.  I find that the <1Watt LED downlights gives a nice ambiance in the room, and keeping it on all night with not a lot of light needed is perfect.  The positive is that they last for 20 000 hours and longer.  I read that Radiant lights are busy developing new versions which they say will last for 10 years.  The technology is also improving, where they are increasing the light output vs. the wattage needed. Have a look at Giantlight.co.za.

I used 8 x 20Watt downlights in my livingroom, ceiling height is around 5 meters (double volume), floor size 25m2.  I only use these lights for reading etc.  Total cost is around 160W...0.16kW....60c/kWh....10 cents per hour.  Any other time I have a floor standing light with 2 long life bulbs, one white 14Watt and one blue.....nice effect.

My bathroom has 2 x LED downlights and 1 x 50 Watt standard OSRAM downlight. A blue LED over the bath, a White LED over the Toilet and the standard shining on a mirror on the opposite wall.  This creates a very nice lighting effect at around 3cents per hour.  I have had to replace the standard bulb twice over the last 3 years....go figure.

Ive got a thing about lights!!  My ideal career would be to design and develop lights and lighting systems  :Big Grin:

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Dave A (21-Nov-09), Marq (21-Nov-09)

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## Jacques#1

> We also saw that most geysers were set at 65 or 70 degrees. You can adjust this to about 55-57 degrees (to kill all the germs)
> 
> When you have allot of ice in a freezer it will use 50% more energy to cool the things inside. So defrost your freezer/fridge to save money, adjust geyser.


Something I've always wanted compare but never got the chance....New domestic geysers has a standing loss of around 2.2kW@60DC over a 24hour period.  I.e. if you don't open the hot water once, it will cost you 2.2kW...60c/kW...R1.32...30 days around R40.  The geyser costs you money if you use hot water.

If you turn the thermostat to 70 DC, you use far less hot water when showering or taking a bath, so the geyser does not have to regain all this energy it lost since it still has quite a lot of hot water in vs. ice cold water topping it up. What do you think??

Apart from wrapping the geyser in a thermal blanket and sealing off the roof space around the geyser, wrapping the pipes......what do you think about replacing the geyser thermostat with a digital one.  Surely the digital thermostat would control the temperature much better over the long run not overshooting and undercontrolling, i.e. saving you money as well?  Or is the loss negligeable?

I heard a while ago someone invented a way to re-use water expelled from the geyser when initially opening it.  Where is this technology?  Why does is always take years to get something to the public  :Banghead:   The therory is that there is a pipe flowing from you tap back to the geyser, which is actuated thermally.  If you open the hot water tap, you dont want or need the cool initially heated water, so you don't see any water coming out.  The water is pushed back into the geyser (luke warm already compared to cold water) and decreasing the energy needed to heat up the water again.  Once the water is hot enough to actuate the valve, it slowly switches and you get only hot water (exactly what you wanted).  This saves you water and electricity.  No real $ value at first, but over a years usage I believe it would definately be worth while.

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## Dave A

> If you turn the thermostat to 70 DC,


The problem I see there is you now have a higher temperature differential which should result in a higher heat loss rate from the geyser.



> you use far less hot water when showering or taking a bath, so the geyser does not have to regain all this energy it lost since it still has quite a lot of hot water in vs. ice cold water topping it up. What do you think??


But you're using more energy to bring that water up to your set temperature. Assuming the user is adjusting hot and cold flows to get a particular end temperature, I'd guess the energy you're putting into the system is the same whether you're using a higher or lower hot water base temperature. However, the higher the hot water temperature, the higher the energy losses along the way due to the higher temperature differential to the environment it's passing through.

In a way it's comparable to line resistance loss principles in electrical systems.

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## murdock

i am yet to see proof of any of this energy saving stuff...it is only logical if you use a 1 mm hole in your shower spout instead of a 5 mm hole but if you stand in the shower for 20 minutes how are you saving ...i am busy with 2 customers being told a R100 000.00 power factor correction unit will reduce costs...you have to make sure you are on the correct metering tariff before you do anything and get a harmonic and load profile...if you have a new type electronic meter you can download info straight from the meter.

there is a lot more to energy saving than people think....to start with it is a life style not just a timer in the geyser or reducing the temperature...it all helps.

if you bath 5 times a day and set your geyser to switch on and off in the morning and night you gona have a cold bath during the day...you must see how quickly these timers are bypasssed after the first cold bath your wife has...and setting it down to 55 just means you fill the bath up 20 % more to before you switch to cold water...i am not saying they dont save electricity just pointing out that you need to change the way you do things.

you want save money
switch things off
dont stand in the shower for 20 minutes
put tanks under your gutters
water your garden early evening 
use pots which fit on the stove properly
microwave stuff to heat
dont keep opening the fridge door
use electric blankets and under floor heating
close curtains or put blinds on the outside to stop the heat
etc etc etc.
there are just toooo many things to mention.

people will start taking this a lot more seriously when the eskom tariff is increased to an amount which will affect the pocket.

save electricity and energy.

rotary compressors on aircons...fridges...deep freezes etc  use less energy electricity than the old type...they have been out for years already.

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Dave A (23-Nov-09)

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## murdock

LED downlights are great if you buy the correct ones...the problem is finding the correct ones...there is a 7 watt phillips unit which works well...try find one...i have even tried contacting phillips themselves no such luck...and again it all about application and position.

i will be installing my 1500 watt light on the side of the house again...purely for security reasons...it lights up the neighbourhood...just dont forget to switch it off...otherwise it doubles the electricity bill.

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## Sparks

You received good replies here, in a nutshell you should defimately go with LED's for your lighting without losing ambience.

Insulating your geysers and hotwater pipes is all you can do there other than connect them in series in which case you can lower your thermostats.

Checking your fridge/freezer thermostats and seals will definately help.

Your guzzlers' are the deep fryers and grillers. A thin bottomed pot with oil no deeper than you require will be cheaper than a 3ph deep fryer to use. You could also go for gas grillers rather than 3ph grillers which I am certain you have.

One last thing have you had someone check your lights to see that there are no earth leakages? That can waste a lot of power and fluorescents often go to earth.

Good luck.

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## BBBEE_CompSpec

I don't insulate a geyser, I insult the geyser. It depends on which geyser you're talking about. My old geyser lives in Cape Town.

On the more serious note, you all need to become like me. Please remember mine is due to Liver damage (I don't drink alcohol or smoke at all). I prefer to lie in the snow. It brings me untold relief. I like cold showers, luke warm baths, drinking my tea/coffee iced cold, drinking my cool-drink room temp. 

The reason I moved to Qtn originally was because I can handle the temps up to -15 degrees. The heat, on the other hand in summer is a killer, thus the reason I get out of there for those months. I like the snow, and let me tell you it can snow for up to five months in winter. I walk around the area in winter without a jersey. My prepaid bill, for any month in the year, is around R200-00 and I did a lot of cooking on my health grill. My veggies were done on gas.

That's called cost cutting.

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## AndyD

> Something I've always wanted compare but never got the chance....New domestic geysers has a standing loss of around 2.2kW@60DC over a 24hour period.  I.e. if you don't open the hot water once, it will cost you 2.2kW...60c/kW...R1.32...30 days around R40.  The geyser costs you money if you use hot water.


All geysers will have standing losses according to how effective their insulation is. There's several things that can alter this effectiveness. If the insulation material gets wet either due to the geyser standing outside in the rain / irrigation spray or there's a leaking fitting on top or a leaking cylinder for example then the insulation will not be as effective as it should be.
Everyone should fit a geyser blanket and insulate the first couple of meters of hot and cold pipework. This will pay for itself in a few months of electricity savings.




> If you turn the thermostat to 70 DC, you use far less hot water when showering or taking a bath, so the geyser does not have to regain all this energy it lost since it still has quite a lot of hot water in vs. ice cold water topping it up. What do you think??


The work the geyser does would be the same in both cases. It would mak no difference if you heat the larger amount of water to a lower temperature or heat a smaller volume of water to a higher temperature.

The thing that swings it is that the standing losses costs through the cylinder insulation will be far higher if the temperature of the stored water is higher. Set the geyser at 55 Celsius maximum. 




> Apart from wrapping the geyser in a thermal blanket and sealing off the roof space around the geyser, wrapping the pipes......what do you think about replacing the geyser thermostat with a digital one.  Surely the digital thermostat would control the temperature much better over the long run not overshooting and undercontrolling, i.e. saving you money as well?  Or is the loss negligeable?


A standard digital thermostat does exactly the same as a mechanical one that's originally supplied with the geyser. The only difference is that it uses an electronic probe to sense temperature. You may be able to achieve a smaller differential with an electronic thermostatcwhich might reduce 'overshooting' but this will mean that the element on/off cycle times will be faster and thermostat wear and tear will be greater, mean failure time will be less. 
There are electronic temperature controllers (PID) that are predictive in nature. They look at the speed that the temperature is rising or falling aswell as usage trends and make decisions about whether the element should be 'on' or 'off'. These are expensive, complicated and will only save small amounts of energy in an application such as a domestic geyser.  




> I heard a while ago someone invented a way to re-use water expelled from the geyser when initially opening it.  Where is this technology?  Why does is always take years to get something to the public   The therory is that there is a pipe flowing from you tap back to the geyser, which is actuated thermally.  If you open the hot water tap, you dont want or need the cool initially heated water, so you don't see any water coming out.  The water is pushed back into the geyser (luke warm already compared to cold water) and decreasing the energy needed to heat up the water again.  Once the water is hot enough to actuate the valve, it slowly switches and you get only hot water (exactly what you wanted).  This saves you water and electricity.  No real $ value at first, but over a years usage I believe it would definately be worth while.


Feeding the initial cold water from the pipework back into the geyser won't save much electrical energy. This cold water will cost almost the same to reheat as new cold water would cost. It would save water possibly, if you were in the habit of running water to drain until it comes hot, but at the expense of a complex plumbing installation and relatively complicated controls. I've not come across the system you describe but it sounds like it would be more suited to new installations rather than a retrofit option.

Hope this helps
Andy

*EDIT*




> Any tips for reducing electricity costs or alternatives? In the restaurants the fridges pull huge power and naturally lights, air con and small appliances. At R20 000 a month and looking like R30 000 thats a whack of cash. Any ideas? Solar power, candles anything I will take it!!!!


Sorry about the double post, I got overexcited and jumped in too quick, I didn't see the OP was about restaurants.

I have profiled the energy consumption of numerous commercial restaurants with a view to cutting consumption and the conclusions are almost always the same.

Diachroic 50 watt downlights have been all the rage for the past few years but they are a killer when it comes to the electricity bill. Some restaurants can have in excess of 150 downlights @ 50 watts each often with inductive transformers. If you're being billed in kVAh then they cost a fortune to run and then some. As mentioned above there are LED alternatives that will fit in the same fittings but often the light output, illumination angles and colour frequency of these can be an issue, not to mention the initial cost of re-lamping. There are also compact fluorescent alternatives you might prefer. Both LED and CFL are available in dimmable models but they're difficult to find and expensive. Sometimes they specify that you must use a leading edge or trailing edge dimmer so try one first before you commit to boxes full of them. Note that most LED and CFL globes (bulbs) are not dimmable, if it doesn't say it's dimmable on the box then assume it isn't until proven otherwise. Another word of warning, the cheaper LED lamps with multiple LED's inside them  run multiple LED arrangement on a single internal driver which over drives the remaining LED's when the first one goes down so complete failure rapidly follows. Stick to recognised brand names even if they are double the price. 

Air conditioning costs a fortune to run, make sure it's turned off overnight. If you have large open doorways to outside areas then install air curtains to keep the cold in and the heat out. Finally the kitchen has an extraction hood that sucks out large quantities of air. If you don't have a supply air system installed to replace this air back into the kitchen then you will be sucking out the airconditioned air from your restaurant. You should have fresh air supplied back into the kitchen to he tune of 90% of the extracted air. (The 10% difference is to keep the kitchen at negative pressure for fire safety purposes.)

Refrigeration costs can be reduced. Make sure that all fridge and freezer doors close properly and the latches work. Keep the door seals in good condition and replace them sooner rather than later if they're damaged. If you have a freezer room then get the defrost cycles optimized. Only use glass dorr fridges if you really need them, if you have them make sure the fluorescent lighting tubes inside them are in polycarbonate sleeves. Empty all under-bar and display fridges into the coldroom at night and switch them off. This can also make a morning stock take easier and improve FIFO procedures.

Insulate geysers and put them on timer clocks.

Stop sloppy procedures like staff using running hot water to defrost food. We've seen this on several occasions and apart from being in breach of HACCP regulations they will empty several geysers of hot water to defrost one box of fish.

Install the push button type taps in the bathrooms, they're more hygienic and stop kids leaving them on.

Make sure extract canopy and supply air fans and air-con switch off at night.

Optimise your morning switch-on and night time switch-off procedures for the kitchen equipment. 

Don't leave the restaurant lighting on overnight as security lighting.If you need lights at night install a more efficient option.

Unfortunately solar and other alternative or renewable energy systems aren't a practical option for commercial restaurants at the moment.

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Dave A (13-Jan-10)

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## Sunfor

> Any tips for reducing electricity costs or alternatives? In the restaurants the fridges pull huge power and naturally lights, air con and small appliances. At R20 000 a month and looking like R30 000 thats a whack of cash. Any ideas? Solar power, candles anything I will take it!!!!


Hi, lighting is always your first point of entry to reduce energy as heating and cooling ar more costly to address. 
shannon

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