# Social Category > South African Politics Forum >  Crime in South Africa

## Chatmaster

Now I know it is no news that SA has amongst the highest crime in the world but I am currently researching a project and found this interesting data.

World wide murder figures
Murder by firearms
Police per capita
Prisoners per capita

Needless to say, the figures clearly indicate that the problem is much more serious than most of our politicians say it is.

I want to ask though, does anyone have a good contribution on how we as the public can tell our employees (government) to improve our crime problem?

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## Dave A

This story certainly sends a message.



> An alleged thief, who walked past the front of a shop he burgled earlier this week, got the beating of his life when an alert shop owner saw him wearing clothes stolen from his shop.
> 
> On being asked where he got the clothes, the man immediately started running away.
> 
> Members of the public apprehended him and beat him, causing serious injuries.
> 
> "We have resorted to mob justice here, because we are fed up with the crime in this area," said Hassen Mohideen, chairperson of Sector Policing Forum (SPF) in Marabastad.
> 
> According to Mohideen, the shop owner saw the man on Thursday night and reported him to a police officer - who refused to arrest the suspect.
> full story from IOL here


There is another allegation of the police refusing to arrest further on in the story, and another story pretty close to home seems to confirm this is spreading as a problem.

In my case, a friend had a break-in into his house. The alarm was tripped and the burglar was chased by the next door neighbour as the burglar was scrambling out a window. A passer-by managed to "subdue" the fleeing burglar in the street (said passer-by knocked the guy out cold, apparently) and he was dragged back to the driveway of the house he had broken into.

The police duly arrived and *refused to arrest the burglar because he had not stolen anything* (yet?). What about forced entry and trespass for goodness sake? Only once another neighbour arrived to see what all the fuss was about, and reported that he had a bicycle disappear off his premises shortly after finding the same person wandering around his garden did the police agree to take the burglar away. Four weeks later and there has been no statements taken or anything that gives any sign that the burglar was not simply released.

So maybe "mob justice" is the way to go. Striking for employment, lower food prices etc. seems to get attention. Maybe the occasional thief getting thoroughly spanked might pursuade the police to stop being spectators.

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## kernel32

This sounds like a great idea for the next poll?  The thing that worries me about mob justice is the fact that it's illegal.  I've heard of people being arrested for acts of mob justice.  Even helping your neighbor by beating up someone that just robbed him, can actually get you into serious trouble.  Where's the logic in that?  Why does our justice system insist on protecting criminals?  :Mad:

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## Chatmaster

I think this 911 call is appropriate for this discussion  :Smile: 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8-y7E02PD3I

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## Dave A

Is youtube having server problems? I got the "this video is no longer available" message and I understand this is happening quite a lot these days.

EDIT: following the link, the comments give a clue as to why this video might have been removed  :EEK!:

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## Chatmaster

Nope it is there, there are several ones of his 911 recording, just try again.

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## IanF

Works fine for me. Is this what starts vigilante groups?

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## Dave A

I'll have to try again.



> Is this what starts vigilante groups?


There wouldn't be a need for mob justice if the police were doing their job. In a way an SPF really is just an organised and sanctioned vigilante group. But if they are handing over to the police, and the police aren't following through on that, where to from there?



> The thing that worries me about mob justice is the fact that it's illegal.  I've heard of people being arrested for acts of mob justice.


If police are not arresting criminals, but are arresting people for "mob justice," there's something wrong with that too. Ultimately, are incidents of mob justice the people's fault or a result of ineffective policing?

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## duncan drennan

The problem with mob justice is that it is extremely irrational (normally driven by anger) and easily manipulated. Innocent people end up getting hurt.

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## IanF

> The problem with mob justice is that it is extremely irrational (normally driven by anger) and easily manipulated. Innocent people end up getting hurt.


Duncan this is different from the SAPS how? :Rant1:

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## duncan drennan

> Duncan this is different from the SAPS how?


Point taken.

The problem we have at the moment is that the SAPS is broken. Mob justice is almost an expectation under our current circumstances, but I would far rather have a functional SAPS. Mob justice places even more pressure on a already dysfunctional service.

We are faced with a whole lot of problems though - ones which go back at least 50 years (read Cry the Beloved Country), as well as new ones being propagated via well-intentioned, but misdirected government programmes.

In a lot of ways we need to fix the fabric of our society, and maybe we are relying on the wrong institutions to do that. A lot of the problems probably can't be fixed by institutions, but only by people, only by relations.

The thing that I am worried about is that changing our current paradigm is going to require the death of a whole generation, and what will we have bred in the meantime?

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## IanF

Duncan
The cure could be easy if the political leadership wanted it. Instead they are fighting with each other and constantly trying to score points against everyone. If they had our welfare and SA's welfare at heart they would sort it out. Will it happen nah. :Mad:

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## Dave A

> this is different from the SAPS how?


TouchÃ©!

I'm not trying to encourage mob justice. What I *am* trying to say is that incidents of mob justice point to a failure by the law enforcement authorities and/or the justice system.

And perhaps in a broader context, government does not seem to act on problems until the situation becomes extreme. Now what is that teaching our citizens? If you want something to change, you have to go extreme.

EDIT: Hadn't read page 2 when I posted that  :Embarrassment:

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## IanF

> EDIT: Hadn't read page 2 when I posted that


Dave
You can change the number of posts you see per page :Wink:

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## duncan drennan

> The cure could be easy if the political leadership wanted it.


This is where I start to scratch my head a bit though - is our society a function of our political leadership, or is our political leadership a function of our society?

People have some sort of sway over who gets pushed up the leadership ladder. If we look at what is happening now we are seeing the rise of a populist leader who represents corruption, greed, and a number of other unsavoury things. This, I believe, is more a feature of our society than of government.

Hence we have to ask ourselves whether government can effect social change, and the only answer that we are left with is no. The last 14 years have proved this. Conversely society can effect political change.

Finally, the awkward question: if society can effect political change, are we, as a part of society, to blame for the lack of political leadership?

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## Graeme

I think that a great many whites (and others) are doing what they can to try to moderate the behaviour of the hooligan element but we are so few and they are so many - and our influence cannot reach the townships.  It is terribly sad - we hear chapter and verse from our domestic servants and one wonders where it is all going to end.

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## IanF

> This is where I start to scratch my head a bit though - is our society a function of our political leadership, or is our political leadership a function of our society?


Duncan
Part of the problem is inertia, the majority of SA seem to be happy with ANC, who has learnt from the NP. They play on the "wit gevaar" fears the latest phrase being "I will kill for Zuma" which means "I love Zuma". So until the majority see crime as problem and not wit gevaar there is no hope. 

What can we do is look for a viable opposition and get them to move from a racial outlook on SA into the pressing issues of the day. The how is the challenge.

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## Dave A

> Dave
> You can change the number of posts you see per page


True, but I keep it at 10 posts per page for quick loading.



> is our society a function of our political leadership, or is our political leadership a function of our society?


The cynical answer is the politician seeks the *appearance* of representing the will of the populace. But reality is very much the reverse. Leadership is by definition influence, which means the views of the populace is shaped by its leaders. Or at least, very heavily influenced - otherwise they wouldn't be leaders.



> People have some sort of sway over who gets pushed up the leadership ladder.


I don't think so, at least not here. This is where proportional representation is really causing problems; it's your influence in the party, not the electorate that determines who gets to the top rungs of the ladder. The electorate has no direct influence over the political future of any individual, except in the really small parties, maybe.

This is particularly evident in the shift at Polokwane. Can one really say that came from the electorate? Ultimately, it was a concerted campaign by COSATU, the CP and the ANCYL that drove the change. Sure, they wrapped it up in "will of the people" rhetoric, but in retrospect it looks like it was the ambition of leaders that felt marginalised under the Thabo Mbeki regime that seems to be the real motivation.

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## murdock

i decided to join the very few that take a stand and do something about the crime in this country instead of just complaining and sending ridiculous emails (like thats gona stop the crime)...i went to the mosely neighbourhood watch meeting for the first time last night.

to my suprise there are people out there trying...there were people who do night patrols while we are all sleep worrying if our family  are safe...there were councilors at the meeting...there is an sms system which works well...there were tips on safety and security...updates on the crime stats...etc...etc.

the point i am trying to make is if you are one of the people who sit at a braai for 6 hours mouning about the crime or you sit at work all day complaining about the crime and want to leave the country because the crime is so bad...get off you backside and join your local neighbouhood watch...the meeting took just over 2 hours...and if you are tooo lazy or just dont have the time to assist with the patrols etc...there are other people who are they just need your support...as mentioned during the meeting in numbers we can overcome the crime in this country...so stop whining and get pro active...or do what the 900 000 visa applicants are doing...move to "greener" pastures.

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## wynn

Yes I agree, join and get active in your local CPF.

They usually meet once a month and the cops report back on crime in your sector so you know what to look out for.

You also get advice on how to protect your property etc.

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## murdock

i was reading the cover of the you magazine while waiting for my change at the tea room today... women is raped while holding her 2 year old child by the same person released 5 days prior...i might have miss read something and i didnt read the article because things like that just make me angry.

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