# General Business Category > Technology Forum >  Children get first mobile at average age of 8

## twinscythe12332

read here

that's pretty scary.

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## 3x-a-d3-u5

> But researchers were also told that by the age of 10, children were shopping online using their parents' debit or credit cards.


 That really puts a whole new spin on target markets! Ofcource that survey is UK based, it does still have some affect here in SA.

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## SilverNodashi

I've seen way too many school kids with cellphones already. And although a lot of innocent moms would protest and say it's for their safety, I don't think parents realize what children can actually do (download games, ringtones, porn, viruses, etc) with cellphones these days. AND, often times the child is more advanced with the technology than the parent. 

I personally won't give my child a phone till he's out of school.

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## garthu

I hear you softdux, controversy over cancer, what content they get etc BUT (aha the big but) my daughter is 10 and got her cell at ten. When she goes out to friends etc i wouldnt have it any other way. She also has a panic system on her phone. Wouldn't have it any other way. Don't know if i could let her out to sleep overs etc unless she had it with her. Also have a 15 year. My  agreement is that i have access to whatever they do. I can check history at anytime i feel like it. The rules are no chatting unless they can answer EXACTLY who that person is and where they live etc etc. They cant delete history if i do spot checks. They know it's for there safety as i show some of the horror stories..

Way i see it is that i have to  keep up with the technology to know what to look for... just my opinion..

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Dave A (23-Feb-09)

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## twinscythe12332

I understand your point of view on that, and you have a good methodology going. Is there a stage you reach before they feel you invade their privacy completely, or do they just accept that you do checks and try keep their phone as clean as possible?

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## garthu

They have accepted it simply as the rule was laid out from day one before they had the phones. Probably wouldnt like to enforce after they had for a while  :Fence: 

The bottom line is i try to "assist" more than control and certainly dont be to extreme. An example happened yesterday  :Frown:  ... . I found my son (15) had been using pretty hectic language on facebook like f### (written like that but the meaning CLEAR!! and sorry if offensive but thats the way it was) His mom wanted him banned from facebook the works! That i think would do exactly the opposite of intended. 

I just gave him the correct info... don't do it in a public enviro like that. Many people wont like it, doesnt make you a better man or person in fact opposite etc. Don't want to see it again etc. I know he'll swear with his mates, i used to, but he mustn't do it like that. 

I think communication ideas and everything have changed so much since i was a youngster (40 now) and used to swear and do stupid things - they just have different channels and cant always vent it the same way we used to by being out all day riding the suburbs - they not allowed to for all the other fears...

I think about what i used to get up to and still pretty thankfull they havnt been up to some the things i did  :EEK!:  Not yet anyway.....

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## insulin

I cannot belief I am typing this! Really we live in South Africa. Teachers cannot be trusted nor can anyone that works with your children ever be completely trusted! This is the golden rule when it comes to the safety of your children!

Look yes you can access porn and horrible stuff on your phone. But they can also do this on a friendâs phone or computer connected to a mobile phone. It is easy! The point is!!!!! Do you trust your children and the answer is NO you donât because they are children and will make mistakes. So I recommend that you give your child a phone because the dangers in our world are real and not because you trust them!  

Teach yourself the technology and set down rules that your children must follow. Or you can use specialised programs to monitor your childrenâs phones.

Donât tell me about how you monitor your childâs phone because you are living a lie... They can manipulate a phone to show you what you want to see. Just educate them of all the dangers and ask them to please respect the rules.

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## Dave A

> They can manipulate a phone to show you what you want to see. Just educate them of all the dangers and ask them to please respect the rules.


I'll endorse that  :Thumbup: 

My theory was once they knew enough to beat the protection net/system I had in place (in my case that was some internet security program, might have been Nortons in the days when it was the best there was), they were somewhere near ready to deal with what lay on the other side.

And it seems it worked out pretty well in the end too.

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insulin (13-Mar-09)

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## Loman

At least there's one good thing:




> Wendy van den Hende, chief executive of the charity, said: "Children today face a kind of 'technological tipping point' forcing them to develop financial awareness at an earlier age."

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## garthu

It's now confirmed that all reporters use TFSA for there "ideas"  :Big Grin: 

Article re cell phones and kids

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## missD

Valid points but, I remember a time when everyone- children and adults - got along fine without cellphones. Adults sudden dependance on this piece of technology has brushed off on the kiddies, because now all of a sudden we need to be able to communicate with our kids all the time. What ever happen to good ol' trust? Yes I understand times have changed, but dont you think that the changes are directly associated with the advancement of technology? I could around in circles about how technology can be good and bad. But at the end of the day the reality of it is that... technology is the new black  :Smile:

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## garthu

Agreed. We could all go round in circles with valid points both sides. But, Insulin, to not trust at all! Don't you think that comes across as maybe an issue to the child. 



> Do you trust your children and the answer is NO you donât because they are children and will make mistakes


Thats STRONG! I feel i do trust the children in general. What i cant trust is what's around them.. thats where i lack trust. Agreed they gonna stuff up with just about everything, but the best lessons in life i have had is where i got things wrong, not right. Surely theres gotta be trust to attempt the right decision, learn from the wrong (we have to stop them from the life threatening situations, agreed)

Dunno am I wishing upon a star here??  :Confused:

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## missD

i agree garth. i think the lack of trust is the reason that kids have the problems they are dealing with these days. kids are so absorbed by technology, what ever happened to playing outside instead of surfing the net or playing xbox??

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## twinscythe12332

trust is an integral part to a child's growing up. you will never be able to be there all the time, and kids have a way of slipping away unnoticed  :Smile:  the thing is to instill a good set of values and best practices with the child. When I think about it, my parents instilled a good set of values to follow. rules were rarely broken because I understood what they were there for (and a tight smack would await me if i strayed over the line :P). The problem here is that parents are no longer taking the time to instill these rules, or don't enforce these rules. We all know what the greater society is like. I learnt an entirely new vocabulary while at school(we all know the one). So if the parents aren't teaching their kids, then soicety will take over. we're social through and through. there wouldn't be such a thing as "peer pressure" if we weren't. what happens when a child makes a mistake? let's take the example of a 17 year old taking drugs. he takes them for a while then has an overdose because he's trying to show to his friends he's one of the brus. gets to hospital, gets sorted out, gets sent back out into the world. who tells him he did something wrong?

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## insulin

Before my mobile phone I had to walk to the closed petrol station when my old car broke down. Before the mobile phone you had to run around for a working public phone when your best friend was stabbed in the stomach and bleeding to death. That is what we did when the mobile phone was still just a dream. I can recall many situations that could have been avoided if I had a mobile phone back in the day. 

Secondly technology is not a bad thing. I hate it when people talk about the good old days because those days were not so good... Yes people get killed because some lowlife wanted his mobile and money. In the good old days you just got killed for your money so what exactly have changed? Still it is not the phoneâs fault that we have lowlife murdering scum running around killing people for the love of killing. I donât care how you see the world. The fact is technology is here to stay and I for one will embrace all technology even cloning that most people find disgusting and wrong, I will endorse because we need to better ourselves as a species or we have lost the battle with evolution.  :EEK!: 

A healthy mind must have a healthy body, thus video games must now evolve to physical development and it has. Playing outside with friends is an innocent activity and sounds good and fun and yes human interaction in the real world is invaluable. However I would rather see each of those children play and run around with a mobile phone in hand then without one, simply because they can help themselves if the need arises.

Last thing, Trust is earned as is respect. I trust and I respect ONLY if I am trusted and respected.

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## insulin

The reality is we failed this 17 year old. We failed to force government to enforce the law. We failed this child because industry is taking all our time for we must work thus our children is left for the wolfs. We failed this child because WE didnât say STOP to the money revolution. We failed this child because we will rather listen to teachers and shrinks because we think they know better! We as a community failed this 17 year old by allowing ourselves to be blinded by work and bills and all kinds of things that really doesnât matter! 

You really donât get it do you...  :Frown:  And I donât mean this in the wrong way but Every... EVERY single grave that hold the body of a young soul is blood on our hands. Because we are too blind to self-obsessed to realise that a child lost his or her young life just because you and I had to work overtime. Just because you and I donât have the time to listen. 

Technology is not the true evil here, it never was. Yes it is made out to be but it is really not. The problem is we must start to think: What can I do without so that I can work less hours and spend more time with my children. 

Better yet MAKE IT A LAW! That a mother will only work half-day while the child is at school. And that the Father may have a day in the week to spend with his children!  MAKE IT A LAW! That is the only true way. 

Donât tell me it is unrealistic! Donât tell me that business and production is so critical that you have be a robot 24 7. We can change this system ... But sadly the willpower is simply not there.  :Frown: 

I agree with one thing if your child is using drugs it is because I have failed! And it is because you have failed. It is NOT their fault... We the grownups are at fault. We failed to remove the drugs thus the problem exists.

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## Chatmaster

I am one of the guilty parties here. Both me and my wife run our own companies. We are relatively free to decide when we want to do what, but we are very busy. My now 10 year old daughter got her Cellphone when she was 8. It changed our lives a lot. We now know where she is at all times and in terms of safety it certainly has it's benefits. However, I made sure she got a entry level cell phone that are basically only able to phone and SMS. No mixit etc. It is a plain and simple cellphone.

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## twinscythe12332

that's good. I'm dead serious when I say if I had mxit when I was 10, I would be one F**ked up individual. originally it was just messaging between friends who have a cellphone. now there's a "joebanker" place to check your "moola" (mxit money bought with real money), a "tradepost"(where you buy all kinds of useless crap akin to those "get snuggle fluffums the singing bunny on your mobile phone or you won't be cool!" adverts) and chatrooms (which cost moola to send messages in). every time you log in now there's a message from tradepost waiting for you. "check out this awesome cool competition, and these totally awesome backgrounds!!!" and the like.

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## insulin

Again the enemy is not the software that MIXIT uses... The reason behind this software was to send messages cheaply and yes chatting with more than one friend at one time. Companies destroyed these ideals because they knew that a lot of money can be made here. With over 2 million users you know they are making money. However MIXIT and other companies like MIXIT are abused by the depraved and perverted group of individuals that knows how to manipulate young boys and girls to do stupid things like running away from home. This problem is as old as chatting itself. 

Now for the solution, the law can force companies like MIXIT to enforce age groups and monitor the chats in rooms and with permission from the parents monitor the private chats between individuals. This means you will have transcripts of every single massage mailed to you every day.

The point is we must force the government to enforce these laws and take interest in our children. Because drugs are a stone trough away from any schools, gymnasiums, colleges, malls and especially clubs. If you think instant chat is a worry, then take a good look at the drug problems we have.

Our children are easy prey for these monsters... Only because we are too weak to do anything about it. It is true we are forever saying this is a problem that is a problem.  :Mad:  

Well let me tell you something if we asked the government to develop a tracking system and allow implants of small tracking devices you will know who your child has been talking to and who he or she is with at all times. This will make kidnapping and drug dealing impossible! Because the implants will detect the presence of drugs and alert the police within seconds.   :Confused: 

But no! Technology is evil! So think what you want do what you want say what you want but every death is on our hands especially the deaths of children. This makes me both angry and sad... so very sad.   :Frown:

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## Chatmaster

> Well let me tell you something if we asked the government to develop a tracking system and allow implants of small tracking devices you will know who your child has been talking to and who he or she is with at all times. This will make kidnapping and drug dealing impossible! Because the implants will detect the presence of drugs and alert the police within seconds.


If government would even think of doing this, I am out of here, seriously! There is no way any government will deprive me of my privacy like that, Yeezzzzz I hope you are not serious about that suggestion.

The key responsibility are not with government it is with the parents. The next thing we will hear is that government will tell parents how to discipline their children, nah parents are the responsible parties not government. Technology are not to blame either but if you create the platform you need to assess the threats and deal with it. Clearly some companies are not dealing with it and that should not be allowed, because then technology becomes the evil.

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Dave A (18-Mar-09)

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## twinscythe12332

I'm in agreement with chatmaster. a "big brother" system is invasive to the extreme. that's when technology becomes the problem. an example of this kind of control would be the movie "equilibrium." they were given drugs so they wouldn't show emotions. those who showed emotions were burnt alive. and with any system of control, there will never be 100%. people rebel, people react, people neglect... it's just how it works. the thing with mxit is the anonymity and the distance. you can be 50KM away and tell a guy what you really think about him. you can set your number to be anonymous, and attempt to get the person you added into drugs. I will add someone with an anonymous phone number tell them that unless they have a phone no shown, I won't chat and then delete them. just because there is too much bull with the anonymous people. the technology has been created to meet one purpose, but due to the way they operate, it can serve as multiple. it doesn't mean they want it to happen any more than the victim wants it to. but people will be people, end of story.

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## insulin

"If government would even think of doing this, I am out of here, seriously! There is no way any government will deprive me of my privacy like that, Yeezzzzz I hope you are not serious about that suggestion."

When I pointed out the tracking system I took in consecration that parents are anything but responsible. I considered the criminal aspect the criminal mind and the failing law systems. I even took into consideration that yes the only privacy we will have will be in our minds. 

But absolute safety will come at a price. We will have to give up privacy and allow our bodies to be monitored for drugs, alcohol and physical abuse 24 7. But right now we are paying for our privacy with the lives of innocence.

Yes it is true that this system itself can and will imprison us all. However we are already slaves to the system. We work for Companies that see us as a disposable commodity.  :EEK!:  We live to feed the banks money and go home every-night irritated and frustrated.  :Banghead:  

So we are left with two options: One: We change the world we live in. Second: we give up our right to privacy and allow for a monetary system that will control every single aspect of our lives from cradle to grave. 

I personally like option âOneâ more but to change the world we must do things like work together and stand up against corrupted industry... I just donât see this happening....  :Frown:

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## twinscythe12332

you didn't happen to be in Durban just before 2000 shouting the end of the world is nigh when the Y2K bug came out, did you? because you're seriously paranoid.

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## insulin

Y2K was a joke. No I donât belief in doom and gloom. I do however belief that our law systems is failing. Our government is mismanaged and our social structure is crippled because we are simply overworked. So yes turn me into the slave that I am!  :Embarrassment: 

I will work for food and water and to see my children be given these same two basic rights will give me joy. I am happy to live in a complex owned by government and or Industry.  :Smile:  

I just want to live a life. Any life! But to work endlessly only to see the once you love lost in criminal shadows is not worth it. To work day and night just so that the banks can take it all and watch me suffer is not worth it.  :Frown:  

But again there are those that have a good healthy life and I can see why they will fight to protect that. But that good healthy life is only for a select few no matter how hard you work. I am old enough to know that this is fact. 
 :Confused:

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## garthu

Wow insulin, you're pretty passionate about your views here! No doubt your gonna take the "passionate posts" award end of year!

I gotta say though (just an opinion, same as i value your opinion all be it i might have a different one!) that the thought of a controlling government is what is getting us in so much cuck already. Giving them more control... i don't care where in the world but it really mess up the planet! In governments, especially Africa, corruption rules. Giving them power over my living.. lets just say i would take up the good fight of resistance (and agreed they control to much already). Option one as you say is the way - but once we give up the fight for that, what do we have left? Nothing!  

Crime is here because we dont have our freedom! We cant hire people under certain conditions, we cant prosecute because of stupid laws, constitutional and other, we give people a life without expecting in return (houses, free water) , we cant take action against crime without fear of the law. 

Reckon i could on and on but i want more freedom!

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Dave A (18-Mar-09)

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## insulin

First of I will always respect any person and there point of view. And despite my view I would much rather write a bit of poetry and or a new novel. Really I donât like to think like this all the time. Sadly the truth is we are really just puppets you know. We have to do what law and government say or we face imprisonment and the most basic right! The right to a safe incarceration is being violated by none other than the government themselves. They will ignore the prison rapes, slavery and brutal treatment because they have the power to do just that.

We gave them that power. In a movie called V for Vendetta it was said that a government must fear its people. We are no longer respected by our government. I can prove this by pointing to the CCMA that will rather tell you to contact a TV show then to help you. Then there is the Consumer Council that is basically powerless to help victims of commercial industry. 

Lastly our poor police stations, underfunded corrupted and basically incapable to serve and protect. Just take a look at the media and crime. 

Now technology can aid a good government to implement good systems beneficial systems that will aid to end corruption and crime. This type of technology will also aid a corrupted government in total enslavement. 

The technology is not the problem. It is the people that use itâ¦  :EEK!:

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## twinscythe12332

apologies if I seemed disrespectful. I've just seen you move along from topic to topic speaking about the topic and then moving into an emapssioned speech about how we're slaves to the government and banking institutions. while I do understand and feel that your views are important, and that in the end everything relates to money,  a bit more topic specific would be cool (we've moved from talking about cellphones and kids to government corruption 0_0) anyway, my 2 cents.

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## Dave A

Ok. Let's not get personal, please. Stick to the points of the debate and we'll all still be friends at the end of the day.

We've all got different views and they come from different life experiences. Let's remember it's all valid!

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## insulin

I can understand and respect what you are saying. And yes I am totally of topic. I will only say this. Donât give your child a mobile phone because you trust the child. Donât blame the mobile chat programs for kidnapping because a mobile phone is not a symbol of trust it is a tool for your child to use when he or she is in trouble. 

Secondly mobile chat programs can be abused because we did not force the government to exercise control over these chat systems. Blame the companies because they donât want to install the systems needed so that you the parent can read the chat transcripts via e-mail. 

Lastly take responsibility to teach your children the dangers of the mobile phone. Respect your child by giving them the truth. Trust your child because your child trust in you. No symbols of trust just simple trust. And please be vigilant and attentive and always be on the lookout for possible danger. They are your most beautiful and wonderful gift you will ever receive in your life so love them with all their mistakes.  :Smile:

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## insulin

I also wish to apologise if I offended anyone. It was never my intention to do so. I wish only to educate and be educated by you.  :Embarrassment:

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## Dave A

No problems - maybe I switched on the cold shower too early.

It's actually a *very* interesting thread.

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## IanF

Ok here is how cell phones leads to a sucide of an 18 year old. Sun article

For my part what I do is not pay for any contract but include enough in my girls pocket money to but airtime on pay as you go. For phones when we upgrade we pass on the better phones to them. They know how to use the fancy phones. So this together with knowing what is right and wrong has worked for us.

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## garthu

Hiya Insulin, The way i see it, every opinion is valid in that it is exactly that, an opinion. Way i see it, what would the point of any of us being here if it wasn't other view points and opinions! BORING!
 Certainly the cell phone kids topic is a hot one ! I think its the fact kids are involved that it just becomes an emotional topic!

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## garthu

I like Ians ideas. I know there is another option with Vodacom, cant recall it's title where I could put my kids on my account number. Even with no airtime, they are able to call me or the selected numbers only. I think you can do 5 numbers.... Of course they could still get there own airtime i suppose :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):  But thats the same principle i use. R55 per month, no top ups, just call me's when its out

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## insulin

Again the abuse of trust... The thing is phones are made to send and receive information. By design they are capable to do this without effort. The fact that the boyfriend wanted to get even after the breakup shows his intend. He wanted to attack her openly and disgrace her and did so by abusing the technology and her trust in him.

Content screening was a suggested technology back in 1997 where children will be registered on special chat systems and the parent will be given the ability to screen and control and intervene when needed. The child can then enjoy a safe chat and internet experience.

If this content screening technology is freely available to parents, then this sad event of Jessie Logan could have been prevented. Parents must demand this capability from the government and the government must force the mobile phone facilitators to comply.

I also want to point out that in 2006 a known criminal wanted to attack a woman in a public restroom. Fortunately she had her phone with her and was able to call for help. I can probably tell you how a mobile phone saved a family and many more such stories. Sadly only the bad things stick to memory and none of the good things.

The fact is technology is an enabler point plank. It will enable you to take photos and share them it will enable you to talk to people and get information from the internet. However technology is an enabler and if you want it to do bad things it will enable you to do bad things.

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## Frankincense

@Insulin...I'd like to commend you for your bravery in thought pattern and level of revelation. :Applaud: Never lose passion!

Starting this thread of youth and Cells would naturally progress to tracking and Banking slavery  :Innocent: (Imagine folks thought it would end there?...lol) That's why they make mention of financial maturity kicking in earlier once the youth grab hold of the hosts(male Cells(cellphones)).

I so see what's coming...and am an enabler Myself..WTF?

Getting the youth accustomed to life perliferated with technological interfaces while we destroy the remaining wildlife camps 'coz the elephants have started humping the Rhino's, assists in what I always refer to as the final roll-out(enough already :Yawn: )...I personally don't expect any other Global movement at this stage to arise. Out with Real things, bring in the Virtual things....

Time will tell....Funny to see the elderly discuss issuing the youth with Cells and Web catchers as if it's negotiable...lol....it's something the youth will want and have...there is no stopping it :No: 

Agreed 100%...we dont see peeps changing the world for the better, or parents saying "No" to the beast of tracking/gridding rising! Any frustrations  experienced when asking oneself why is it that somethings are meant to be...like the great flood of Noah, or the effects of Global Warming...no matter how many "poor" people cry out for change, prophesies have to come to maturity...and the catching of most flesh in the web of coding and technological nu6mb6erin6g is but a part of my yourthfull life at this stage....I too look forward to the post "coding/numbering" period of peace, but there's still quite a bit of work to do before it's really in full swing and finally over...(not sure I'd make it though - I love my accounts, ID Book Code, and all the other goodies that come with the "good" life...even my Omnia and my Extreme Gaming Rig.. :Yes: 

This is so "ON TOPIC"....

Good to see you and Twinscythe reasoning...  :Console:

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## insulin

Let us start with the small things you donât know. First of the future is the past and what is coming is scary really scary. I am talking about technology that will not only monitor and control you. No I am pointing out that phones are a communication device. Do you know what your phone does when you press the little red button? Do you think it just hangs up at that moment? See I have installed a little thing called a RBS unit about sixty of them in one small aria. Do you know what a RBS is? Well if you Google it you will find that it is a Radio Base Station. It is capable to handle up to half a million and the new systems can handle a million calls without even knowing it. Now it translate that little radio signal from your phone into ha hardwire signal and then it runs into the Telkom back bone and route it to the closet RBS to the person that you are calling. Now in order for it the send the signal to you it needs to know where you are... So it knows where to find you so that it can deliver your SMS or voice. See what you donât know is that it must be able to track you or you will not be able to get a signal. âImagine thatâ The network knows where you are at all times when your phone is active. So is it really so inconceivable to think that a technology will soon exist that will be able to track you on a permanent basses do you really think it is that far in the future? Well hate to break it to you but when you press that little red button your pone doesnât hang up immediately it sends out a signal known a last location thus the system has memory of your movement. This is possible now. I know I have worked with this technology for a long time. So...

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## Dave A

The '60s - now in digital.

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## insulin

Yes something like that... In the movies they make you belief that it takes time to track your mobile. It is not true. The system needs to know where you are before it can connect to your mobile so you are being monitored right now. But only to give you your SMS or voice... So it is really a small jump from tracking you fulltime for other purposes... the technology exit it has existed for a long time but only now is computers powerful enough to track you in real time... now that is scary...   :Yikes:

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## Loman

But is it precise? So right now my phone is at Lat: XXX by Long: XXX? I've always thought its a bit general for instance within a towers reception radius.

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## garthu

> But is it precise?


Depends on where and which tech is being used. They now use 2. GSm and GPS. GSM they can be accurate to 30 yards. Controlling factors are how far the masts are, country side etc. Generally it wouldn't be 30 yards here since the towers are put at max distance for cost cutting. Anyone can use this tech now to track a phone

Then the GPS side is accurate to a meter or 2! The phone must be GPS phone (the one you are tracking) and have a small app installed. Problems though are most phones signal ability is low for GPS use and when the phone is in a house, city the GPS doesn't always work so if the phone you try to track is in a house, you may not get it at all.

Of concern is the marketing sometimes used.. "See what your spouse is up to" etc. Now sure, since as 80% of men die on the job at someone elses house (so it seems  :Smile:  ) it could be of use. But how many marriages or similar are going to go out the window for no reason...

But now heres the real kicker. R45 per week... thats right folks you can install the tracker on your phone and if gets nicked, you can get it back! (They dont tell you that the number has to be the same) Now lets see.. how about i just by a new phone every 10 weeks and keep it in the cupboard instead for that rainy day.... :Cool:

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## Dave A

> But is it precise?


Within 100 metres under the right circumstances, I believe. I looked at it a while ago as a possible method of tracking our service teams. And of course if you switch off the phone, you disappear.



> Yes something like that...


Maybe my '60s comment was a bit cryptic. Sorry, hectic morning and time was tight.

The 1960s might be well known as the dawn of sex, drugs and rock 'n roll. But it was also a time of "working for the man" (slang for a form of _big brother is watching_ paranoia) and "parents aren't with it" (don't get what is really going on/old fashioned etc.)

The similarities are striking, except this time the release is a digital virtual world.

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## Frankincense

Clearer...yes, we are being tracked...even this website is advertising "The Grid"...where you can see where your friends are within a couple of metres...I've had it running on my Male(Cell) for months which of course in shorter terms than the "red button stuff", feeds off the host (server Cells)...all to do now is nurture the youths' dependance on this lifestyle, and have people convinced for their own security, they need an implanted chip, case closed :Devil: . We use money and the secirity of not carrying cash (cashless society) and limiting flesh's financial freedom finally if they don't comply/consent. Starting with cells, and clothes with chips in them to track your kids, highlighting "crime" or "terrorism" if you like. That's why we drop World Trade Centers, to create a sense of fear for people to believe they need it.

Oh how creation is being suckered....  :No:

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## duncan drennan

Has anyone ever considered this: why would anyone want to track you or even care where you are (other than a spouse/parent - maybe).

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## Dave A

> even this website is advertising "The Grid"...where you can see where your friends are within a couple of metres...I've had it running on my Male(Cell) for months


Then you would know - does the cellphone being tracked have to authorise the tracking?

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## Frankincense

@Duncan
"why would anyone want to track you or even care where you are "
It's about CONTROL & Money Duncan. There are many Business people who need to stay in control and develop the level of control too to maximise profit. The more control you have over your "clients", the better for your pocket.....and once I have total control over a large group of "clients" through access codes and passwords, and focus on aligning all my business accross coutries, I'll have total control wrt financial/buying  affairs, thus being able to manipulate the group much more easily than purley through the media and creating events. It's the primary reason why all these tracking systems are rising. It's business as usual, but taken to the next level.

Have all your staff on a grid, and control thier life with what they can and cannot have. "Greed" would be another way of describing the reason for the events we see happening.

@Dave
"does the cellphone being tracked have to authorise the tracking?" Yes Dave, the owner needs to give consent.

Although, your service provider, with a court order, may track you to within meters if they recieve a "legitimate" request, and that would be without your permission on the grounds of "suspicion of fraud".

Still some time to enjoy your privacy while it lasts.... :Yes:

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## Dave A

> Still some time to enjoy your privacy while it lasts....


A least as long as we have an independant judiciary  :Stick Out Tongue: 

I guess we could all just throw away our cellphones  :Whistling:

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## duncan drennan

> Still some time to enjoy your privacy while it lasts....


What I'm struggling to understand is that if you seriously believe all this stuff, why are you connected to the internet and why do you have a cell phone (which is connected to Vodacom's The Grid)?

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## Frankincense

We choose to live in mainstream society and partake in it's code, or we enter exile...it's just a simple choice Duncan("The green or the blue pill" Bru - like in The Matrix), however, I will not allow myself to deceive myself that "all this stuff" is NOT REAL, just because it's hard to swallow or because I want to believe in a "comfortable fairy tale type existence" (there are some who do this.... :Yes: ) There are those who will for example accept the mark, and those who will reject it...some will accept for convenience sake, and couldn't care about the religious implications, and others will reject it out of religious convictions...

The word "exile" above refers to Dave's statement concerning throwing away one's cell phones (One should actually start with closing all one's bank accounts and getting rid of your ID CODE book)..., but yes...Dave...that's how exile starts...people get fed up with what they have accepted, and so choose to reject it eventually. There is however a price to pay. I'm not prepared to pay that price Duncan. The day I am, I'll take Dave up on his suggestion. I did it before...but that's a long story.

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## insulin

It is call triangulation and it is spot on accurate. See you have 3 mobile phone towers. The first tower pings your phone and calculate signal strength then the second tower does the same followed by the third. Phone towers do this all the time because your phone needs to stay connected right so... With a little bit of tech and basic knowledge of signal attenuation you can work out how close you are to closest tower and thus you get a radius around that tower. Now with the other two towers you can calculate the direction of the signal and if the signal is moving or not. This gives you point of possession and this system is used by military today... It is simple math really but now you will probably tell me that our systems cannot do this... I am not even going there because the tech support that I used to talk to while installing RBS systems could measure me accurately within an arm length. The only difference is we used a special phone given to us. It was a Nokia 3G phone with video call. The tech support hat special permission to do these test because they needed to know if the signal array was working or not. But ja what ever...

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## twinscythe12332

> It is call triangulation and it is spot on accurate. See you have 3 mobile phone towers. The first tower pings your phone and calculate signal strength then the second tower does the same followed by the third. Phone towers do this all the time because your phone needs to stay connected right so... With a little bit of tech and basic knowledge of signal attenuation you can work out how close you are to closest tower and thus you get a radius around that tower. Now with the other two towers you can calculate the direction of the signal and if the signal is moving or not. This gives you point of possession and this system is used by military today... It is simple math really but now you will probably tell me that our systems cannot do this... I am not even going there because the tech support that I used to talk to while installing RBS systems could measure me accurately within an arm length. The only difference is we used a special phone given to us. It was a Nokia 3G phone with video call. The tech support hat special permission to do these test because they needed to know if the signal array was working or not. But ja what ever...


sounds about right.
it's spot on as long as you have the three towers and good signal with all. thus triangulation in cities works pretty well. however, when you start losing towers, the area where you could be does become bigger.

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## insulin

This is true, however with a single tower I will still be able to work out a radius and can still workout the distance and depending on the antenna type it is possible to still work out direction and travelling speed. cool stuff.

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## Loman

Aw shucks, it looks like i'll have to go back to payphones if i need to contact the other members regarding our plot to assassinate the king. Damn.

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## twinscythe12332

<paranoia> but then they'll know which payphone you're using 0_0. they'll get there within minutes. our plan shall be foiled!!!! </paranoia>

there's always going to be some way to track a person down. unless you manage to create your own communications device with a different type of encryption.

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## insulin

Yes the humble payphone, people tend to forget about them. Unlike other countries these pieces of kit saved more lives and help more people than any other device back in the old days. However I will say that you better keep a bottle of disinfectant with you and a few disposable wipes. The public phone is filthy! But we are so far of topic now...  :Stick Out Tongue:

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## Dave A

...if the public phone is working! At least that used to be the big problem with public phones. And they're not always there when you want them.



> But we are so far of topic now...


Not really - we're just getting to the other side of the coin  :Stick Out Tongue:

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## insulin

As far as know, public phones is actually easy to trace. Most of the working phones can be found at banks, malls and casinos. The reason for this is that these phones are in secure arias with security cameras. Secondly it is of note that most criminals donât use landlines because they use coded text aka coded SMS. One word will have another meaning that kind of thing. It is not a new system but it is effective. But I find it interesting that the art of deception is so widely unknown by most people. 

A Capital âLâ can stand for 3:00 AM or 3:00 PM. If you got the message: C D @ Lam. It works out to âC = seeâ âD =  first letter of nickname or name like Daveâ â@ = atâ and "Lam = 3:00 AM" 

A more complicated code exist but then it comes down to your decode key. Once you had the key you can decode stuff. The letter 1 can have full sentence connected to it and you my never no because you donât have the decode key. Fun stuff to play with.

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## insulin

Also on a paranoid note imagine children using this system on mobile chat programs. Mom and Dad will think they are having an innocent conversation but actually it is all code for organizing the next party.  :Devil2:

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## twinscythe12332

hahaha it's already happening dude. go up to a nearby parent and ask them if they know what wtf, wth, idk, omg, omfg, roflmao and the list goes on.

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## insulin

Yes well that stuff is common practice I am talking about proper code but I donât want to give up anymore examples because I might end up on someoneâs list. But ok you get the picture. See a friend of mine was heavy into privacy and her journal was written in Klingon you know the ugly dudeâs in Star Trek... So yes donât be fooled there are many ways to do this.

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## Frankincense

" I might end up on someoneâs list."

Either way you are on someones list already...keep your accounts and handsets and play with the stuff and watch StarTrek....that way you get to stay with the King....throw them away, plot to overthrow Him and you will find yourself on a more desirable list, but your reward will only be in the afterlife....

lmao

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## insulin

First of all I am a book worm and dislike Star Track with a passion. Secondly I only mentioned it to point out that people will get creative to protect their privacy. Still I do think that privacy is no longer a reality when it comes to the internet or other technologies such as mobile phones. But if you feel it is then I am happy for you.  :Cool:

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## Frankincense

...books are so old fashioned...I prefer the internet....

Agreed 100% with "Still I do think that privacy is no longer a reality when it comes to the internet or other technologies such as mobile phones."

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## insulin

I like to feel texture on the pages and if the book is nice and aged it had that wonderful aroma and yellow pages that seems wiser then it was a few years ago. A good book is to be held it gives the story that something extra. As if itâs more personal because itâs yours. You own it... and soon it becomes one of a kind. I still have my old storybook with the memory of my mom reading me stories before I go to sleep at night. It is older than me but when I take it. The memories come flooding back and I smile. That is the true gift of a book. Also it is worth a lot now. You canât even get them anymore...

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## Dave A

Interesting comparing books vs reading on the internet.

One of the things I came across is that fonts need to be plain when viewed on a screen. For example Times New Roman is perfectly comfortable to read in printed media but causes strain when read on a screen.

I suspect the way we absorb knowledge is similarly affected by the medium in which it is presented.

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## insulin

I find that Arial is very nice but that is more personal opinion. I write all my novels in Arial also all my poetry. Also I hate white pages. Normally I set them on nice soft yellow or gray but no sharp colours. My basic word setting is Arial size 8 with the zoom set on 120% page colour is light soft gray to ease the eye. Experiment with it. See what works for you.  :Smile:

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## Dave A

> Experiment with it. See what works for you.


I did - this is the result  :Wink:

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## insulin

Cool stuff...  :Smile:

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## insulin

One of my friends told me that she watched a story on discovery. It was something to do with hackers and stuff. Anyway apparently encryption is regulated by government. I don’t know if the same is true in South Africa but apparently there are programs that are considered illegal if government is not provided with a decryption key... Now does that scream big brother or what!

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## Dave A

If there *is* a back door to encrypted transmissions over the internet, it's more than a privacy issue - it's a serious security problem. But if you look at legislation, the focus is on traceability, not access to the actual content. In fact, I'm not aware of any legislation that allows government agencies back door access to encrypted transmissions.

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## insulin

Now this is it if you don’t want to give your children a mobile here is the perfect excuse! 

"Dad hammers Wyo. teen's phone after mega-bill
By Adam Chodak
9News

Dena Christoffersen sent more than 300 texts within an eight-hour period every day at school. (9News)

CHEYENNE — In one month, a Cheyenne teenager sent 10,000 text messages and received about the same — all while her family's plan did not include texting.

That means the family's provider — Verizon — charged them for each incoming and outgoing text message.

The girl's parents, Gregg and Jaylene Christoffersen, thought texting had been disabled, so one can imagine their surprise when they got the monthly phone bill and it asked for $4,756.25.

"It just hit us like a rock, like you're stepping into a bus," Gregg Christoffersen said.

The bill was legit.

Dena Christoffersen, 13, had apparently been sending most of these messages at school. That's more than 300 texts within an eight-hour period every day for the whole month.

Needless to say, it drew attention away from what she should have been doing: paying attention in class.

"She went from A's and B's one semester to F's in two months," Dena's dad said.

Hours after the enormous bill arrived, Gregg Christoffersen took a hammer to his daughter's phone.

He and Jaylene also grounded Dena until the end of school.

"I felt really bad, and I have learned my lesson," Dena said, with her head down.

Since she lost her phone, Dena's grades have gone up, and the texting is down to zero.

As for the phone bill, the family says Verizon has been willing to knock it down to a reasonable level.

The Christoffersens are asking school administrators at Johnson Junior High School to crack down on cellphone use during school.

See the smashed cell phone at 9News.com. "

Ok!!! But my argument is if she had a top up phone then it would have been under control or...........?

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## Dave A

> As for the phone bill, the family says Verizon has been willing to knock it down to a reasonable level.


Well done Verizon  :Thumbup:

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## insulin

give a hand for  Verizon  :Applaud:  That is true valued customer service!

Unlike Vodacom that will happily leave you to pay between two and six thousand Rand just because they can...   :Confused:

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## insulin

"Honest Guy Returns Cell Phone, Gets Arrested

by Terrence O'Brien, posted Apr 6th 2009 at 3:14PM

Returning a Lost Cell Phone Leads to ArrestYou've always been taught that crime doesn't pay, but we were a little distressed to learn that, apparently, honesty doesn't either. Paul Leicester, a college student in Merseyside, UK, was out celebrating his 18th birthday last month when he came across a mobile phone on the ground. Leicester picked up the handset and called the last number dialed, which belonged to a friend of the owner, and told him he'd leave the phone at the local police station.

For some reason, upon arriving at the police station, Leicester was arrested, for "theft by finding," whatever that is. He was held for several hours and DNA samples were taken before the charges were eventually dropped. "I thought I was doing the right thing and had it thrown back in my face," Leicester told the Daily Express last week. "It was a shocking experience."

The arrest has been dropped and the circumstances surrounding it are being reviewed, but it might be a little late to make up for locking up a kid on his birthday. [From: Daily Express]"

So next time I am in the UK and I see a mobile phone I will just walk right past it.   :Slap:

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## mailman786

Scary stuff. 
I keep on thinking when I was growing up we did not have the need for cell phones. Sure, times have changed, and most parents let their kids have phones for safety purposes, but there are just too many potential evils out there that outways the positives.

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## insulin

No I do not agree with that, if I had my way I would get the suppliers to build a mobile phone that can be monitored properly and give it to every single child because today in the now... there are criminals about looking to harm children and we cannot turn a blind eye on this. Being able to phone mom or dad or even the police is a powerful tool on its own.   :Wink:

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## garthu

Really debatable subject... people die for a cell phone, some die because of the lack of a phone...

I still think that i prefer my kids to have the phone. They are well trained in not publicly displaying them as well! For me to know where they are, that i can contact them anytime is really important for my own comfort

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Dave A (24-Apr-09)

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## insulin

Yes... I think you pointed it out best of all. Mobile phones must be out of sight out of mind and only be used when you have some privacy. It is sad that it has to be this way but for now it is a must. The same rules goâs for my IPod and notebook. I make a point to keep these things hidden and even then robbers will rob you because they can and because our police are really useless...  

The fact is that the mobile is not the problem but rather the criminal element surrounding the mobile is the problem. But! It is not just mobile phones. Flashy cars and jewellery is also targeted by the criminal element. 

So in its own right the mobile is just another excuse for violent crime...  
 :Frown:

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## Frankincense

no sweat...if it's the crime around that handset that concerns...but would still like to track dem....just buy your kids the Jackets or underwear with GPS chips in them...it's a new fasion... :Slayer:

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## insulin

Truth is the world is getting smaller and more people disappear in the middle of the day so yea bring the tracking systems but rather have them implanted. Canât get rid of something if it is next to your brain.    :Clap:

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## twinscythe12332

which can then be used against you  :Wink:

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## insulin

See in the end everything is like a gun. Now a gun can be used safely and responsibly but it can also be used to kill and intimidate. But itâs not the gunâs fault it is the person that uses it... Good or bad no matter it will happen eventually

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## twinscythe12332

exactly. to protect and serve or to kill and intimidate.

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insulin (30-Apr-09)

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## tec0

Well a while ago we had a discussion about social networking on the net and mobile phone. Yet another South African girl is now missing and the cops are investigating her contacts on the net. Still are you cyber smart?

Well, the truth is the truth some network systems want your real information and then it is just a matter of time when someone will win your trust and then it might end badly for you. So again I ask about legislation and the use of your private information? 

I know of sights that will not allow you to join them unless you give them your phone number? Why do they need your phone-number and who has access to this information. The truth is there are a lot of monsters in the world and by not taking care you may end up being there next victim. 

Now this is not the first-time that someone got abducted and one may only speculate the outcome. The truth is that your security is in your hands. If you join an online social network and this network wants more and more personal information dump it... you donât need it... and you will be safer without it. 

If you befriend someone on the net and that someone wants to know more and more... Ask yourself why? What is his or her real interest? But please above all stop and think about it. You donât know who is on the other side... 

Here are some pointers to keep you safe. Feel free to add your own. 

>> Never give up your home address 
>> Never give up your Phone numbers 
>> Never give up your Name or Surname
>> Never agree to face to face meetings ânot even as groupâ 
>> Most import of all is do not trust anyone

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## AndyD

I think children need tools rather than rules. The tools they need would be few and would evolve with their environment and could be applied to all situations they find themselves in. If you go with the rules approach the list will be long, and there will always be a time where the child must make a decision about exceptions. 

It's a very small percentage of people who would willfully endanger a child, why teach the child to tar the whole population with the same brush? This will ultimately be to the detriment of the child.

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## Lou

It is scary if the technology dangers aren't completely eliminated.



> I hear you softdux, controversy over cancer, what content they get etc BUT (aha the big but) my daughter is 10 and got her cell at ten. When she goes out to friends etc i wouldnt have it any other way. She also has a panic system on her phone. Wouldn't have it any other way. Don't know if i could let her out to sleep overs etc unless she had it with her. Also have a 15 year. My  agreement is that i have access to whatever they do. I can check history at anytime i feel like it. The rules are no chatting unless they can answer EXACTLY who that person is and where they live etc etc. They cant delete history if i do spot checks. They know it's for there safety as i show some of the horror stories..
> 
> Way i see it is that i have to  keep up with the technology to know what to look for... just my opinion..


You're dead right about keeping up with technology garthu and, I also think you're right about giving you kids cell phones at very early ages. 

However, I recommend that you take a look at the _"Parent's Guide to the CyberWorld of Children"_  and then review your belief that keeping a close eye on what they've been doing (still a good idea) is really getting the job done.

It's a real eye-opener.




> I understand your point of view on that, and you have a good methodology going. Is there a stage you reach before they feel you invade their privacy completely, or do they just accept that you do checks and try keep their phone as clean as possible?


There's not a lot of agreement on just how much privacy kids should have but personally, I think that they should have complete privacy for safe activity and ZERO privacy for potentially harmful activity. Until recently, that just wasn't possible but it is now.




> They can manipulate a phone to show you what you want to see. Just educate them of all the dangers and ask them to please respect the rules.


That is certainly true insulin and I think it's a great idea to _"...ask them to please respect the rules"_ but medical research at institutions all over the world have proven that the part of the human brain responsible for good judgment (sound reasoning) does not mature until about the age of 20-21.

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## adrianh

If you have a phone that doesn't have an onboard GPS then the network only knows which are the 3 cell towers nearset to you. The network decides which tower is predominantly used by looking at your signal strenth on all three towers.

On board GPS phones are a different story. All the same applies as above but your GPS pinpoints your location to within 1m. I am certain that all phones will be fitted with GPS's in the future.

Real time GPS / GPRS tracking is used by many companies to track vehicles, goods & people. you don't need a powerful computer to do this at all. The simplest way, without using GPRS is to SMS the tracked device and ask it for its coordinates. THe device then sends the coordinates back to you. Many companies buy huge sms bundles for this exact purpose.

An interesting use of this technology is for vending machines. Many companies monitor the status of their vending machines via sms. An sms is sent twice a day updating stock holding and cash received. Many vendors fit on board GPS's as well and the coordinates are transmitted as well. The added cost is negligible. The coordinates are transmitted so that the vendor can determine if the machine has been moved or stolen. Unplugging the machine doesn't prevent the phone / modem / GPS from working as the mains is only used to charge the devoce's batteries.

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## murdock

if there is one thing i have learnt in life...not to trust anyone...i have suffered dearly for this...i dont even give "any" details over the phone or internet...when someone wants details ie bank etc...i go to the branch and sort it out...call me old fashion.

my kids do what they want when they want...the older ones have cellphones...and know one thing...if they need help i am just a call away...i must have tracker fitted in case they get in a position where they are drugged and cant talk.

you will never be able to stop kids from doing what they want...there are always ways to get around rules...and from my experiences the ones who are more restricted and are not street wise suffer the most...they get let loose and dont know the dangers of the street...hence they get lured into things they dont know about...i have seen with my own eyes how young girls drink too much and get gang banged by big groups of men...bike rallies...private parties etc...it a cruel sick world out there...we live in suburbia and are clueless to what happens when it gets dark...all the monsters come out to feed...make no mistake it also happens during the day.

all i can say is communicate with the kids and make sure you sit down for meals at a table together so you can pick up changes in behaviour.

i am on round 3 now...step children all grown up married with their own children  with children...my own ones just finishing school and now a brand new one...i dont have the amswers...one the stepchildren is back in rehab for the 5 th time now for cocaine...heroin addication.

one just finished school is hooked on greens...caught him the other day...

i can only warn them of the dangers...they will do what they want regardless...and as i always tell them once it happens it is already toooo late.

ihave lost many friends and aquaintences to drug abuse and drinking...

its not the drinking that kills you...its the accident or fight you get into that does the harm...

drugs are a different story...i have lost most people to suicide from drugs

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## tec0

Technology is just one more thing for a bad person to abuse. In the world of now we can no longer control environments because work demands more hours and the law makers give criminals more rights than innocent people. 

Yet we are to blame. We let the work demand more hours from our lives because we needed more money. The slave system is at work from this point forward and soon we will find ourselves hopelessly lost in it all. 

Imagine for a moment that we as humans stated we will only work 8 hours a day and no more. We will not work on the seventh day of every week and that we will not tolerate drug dealers, or any other type of criminal. Imagine having the time to spend with your family... 

This is the reality: the elite created a system where they can entrap the hard working individual, then created laws that is effectively controlled by them. Lastly the elite prey on the youth for their own sick fantasies. They made sure that we lost control. 

Think this is just another conspiracy? Well stop putting in extra time at work, stop working Sundays and start demanding your rights. By the end of the month you will find that you can no longer afford the world that you are living in. You will see the sun is up but you will die of hunger because the system does not tolerate disobedience. 

Itâs time to wake up because we are in really deep trouble.  :Frown:

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## adrianh

*This is the reality: the elite created a system where they can entrap the hard working individual, then created laws that is effectively controlled by them. Lastly the elite prey on the youth for their own sick fantasies. They made sure that we lost control. 
*

Who are the elite?

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## adrianh

Murdock, I can vouch for what you say. When I was young I couldn't care less what my parents had to say. My brother and sister did extremely well in school and in adulthood. I was the proverbial f_ckup. My youth was a haze of causing $h1t, getting drunk, stoned and just being in trouble. I absolutely hated school and all forms of authority. My parents didn't know what to do, I simply couldn't care. How do you punish a teenager that doesn't give a rats ass. Anyway, the army changed things for me, I couldn't behave the way I did and things slowly changed. It took many years to settle down and gain control over my own life. I suppose my poor health, due to my childhood antics, eventually did the trick. There is nothing like waking up with a headache every day knowing that you probably caused the problem yourself.

I am quite sure that my old man is sitting up in heaven pi$$ing himself every time my daughter does something stupid. He must be saying "Its your turn now". When I look back at my life, which I don't like doing, I have many regrets. Most of all not listening to my parents. Of course I can't tell my kids about all these things but like Murdock says, I can be there to pick them up when they fall down, like my parents did for me. I can see myself in one of my daughters, she has the same "I don't give a damn attitude". I know better than to try and berate her for her make-up. She is what she is, the thing is to try and channel her stubbornness into something useful.

So Murdock, I know where you are coming from, I also lost some friends to drugs, alcohol, bike & car crashes, etc.  Life sure ain't easy and the steetwise survive.

T*o quote Johnny Cash with a boy Named Sue*


My daddy left home when I was three 
And he didn't leave much to ma and me 
Just this old guitar and an empty bottle of booze. 
Now, I don't blame him cause he run and hid 
But the meanest thing that he ever did 
Was before he left, he went and named me "Sue." 

Well, he must o' thought that is quite a joke 
And it got a lot of laughs from a' lots of folk, 
*It seems I had to fight my whole life through. 
Some gal would giggle and I'd get red 
And some guy'd laugh and I'd bust his head,* 
I tell ya, life ain't easy for a boy named "Sue." 

*Well, I grew up quick and I grew up mean, 
My fist got hard and my wits got keen,* 
I'd roam from town to town to hide my shame. 
But I made a vow to the moon and stars 
That I'd search the honky-tonks and bars 
And kill that man who gave me that awful name. 

Well, it was Gatlinburg in mid-July 
And I just hit town and my throat was dry, 
I thought I'd stop and have myself a brew. 
At an old saloon on a street of mud, 
There at a table, dealing stud, 
Sat the dirty, mangy dog that named me "Sue." 

Well, I knew that snake was my own sweet dad 
From a worn-out picture that my mother'd had, 
And I knew that scar on his cheek and his evil eye. 
He was big and bent and gray and old, 
And I looked at him and my blood ran cold 
And I said: "My name is 'Sue!' How do you do! 
Now your gonna die!!" 

Well, I hit him hard right between the eyes 
And he went down, but to my surprise, 
He come up with a knife and cut off a piece of my ear. 
But I busted a chair right across his teeth 
And we crashed through the wall and into the street 
Kicking and a' gouging in the mud and the blood and the beer. 

I tell ya, I've fought tougher men 
But I really can't remember when, 
He kicked like a mule and he bit like a crocodile. 
I heard him laugh and then I heard him cuss, 
He went for his gun and I pulled mine first, 
He stood there lookin' at me and I saw him smile. 

*And he said: "Son, this world is rough 
And if a man's gonna make it, he's gotta be tough 
And I knew I wouldn't be there to help ya along. 
So I give ya that name and I said goodbye 
I knew you'd have to get tough or die 
And it's the name that helped to make you strong."* 

*He said: "Now you just fought one hell of a fight 
And I know you hate me, and you got the right 
To kill me now, and I wouldn't blame you if you do. 
But ya ought to thank me, before I die, 
For the gravel in ya guts and the spit in ya eye 
Cause I'm the son-of-a-bitch that named you "Sue.'"* 

I got all choked up and I threw down my gun 
And I called him my pa, and he called me his son, 
And I came away with a different point of view. 
And I think about him, now and then, 
Every time I try and every time I win, 
And if I ever have a son, I think I'm gonna name him 
Bill or George! Anything but Sue! I still hate that name!

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## murdock

the most important thing to take from all of this...make sure you are there for the children no matter what happens and they must know they can come to you no matter how badly they mess up or for advice...we all make mistakes...just some of us make bigger mistakes.

i am pleased to tell you that my 20 year old son has finally started coming home...at his own free will...even though it is for short visits...its a start  :Big Grin:

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Dave A (19-Jul-10), Frankincense (21-Jul-10)

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