# Social Category > General Chat Forum >  Jessica Leandra Dos Santos racial tweets

## adrianh

We all know that her Tweets were really inappropriate. The Tweets opened a huge can of worms because she was born in '93 so she did not live in the era where those words were used. The question that the media asks is how come a 20 year old can still use those terms.

Eish, what a silly girl; arrogance and stupidity makes for a dangerous combination but add beauty and a large following then you have really terrible mess. Also a bit tough if your are your own brand and brand ambassidor and you then stick your own pretty little toes in your mouth.

It just goes to show how careful one should be when you use social media. Here is an interesting thing to think about; if one were to add together the letters within the 3 notable comments and then divide that into the financial loss that she is incurring do to those words, those letter are going to be damned expensive.

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## murdock

i didnt even now who they were talking about...good or bad media...everyone knows who she is now.

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## adrianh

Twitter is the most direct route from an empty head to the entire internet.

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Blurock (05-May-12), Dave A (06-May-12)

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## Citizen X

Jessica’s use of that derogatory racist slur is not the first from a celebrity nor will it be the last. It’s simply a matter of her been exposed for it. Many racial slurs and remarks go unreported because they don’t stem from celebrities. Darren Scott used the same derogatory racist slur towards of one of his colleagues. I’m aware that popular opinion will never be with me when I say that I believe in second chances especially where someone sincerely apologizes. I also endorse forgiveness. That is the true spirit of ongoing reconciliation. You accept you were wrong, you come forward and apologize and you move on. This naturally does not negate what you’ve done. I’m sure that the FHM will take disciplinary action against her if they haven’t already done so. The following comments are noteworthy:
“In reality however nothing could be any further from the truth. While people many follow or befriend you, they are not your friends or followers – except maybe for occasionally checking on your profile. Having 5000 friends or followers that you know, at least in the ‘real world’, is physically impossible.
Also, the belief that one has so many friends fuels narcissistic and attention-seeking behaviour in some – leading to updates and tweets about food instead of eating, happiness instead of actually enjoying one’s happiness – traits consistent with individuals that ordinarily have a low self-esteem.
Individuals that have a great following or a good number of friends tend to confuse those that follow them as being their actual friends. As a result, private transcripts; dialogue that cannot be publically avowed, becomes public.
A simple dynamic, but too few people realise this, perhaps as in the case of Leandra do Santos, who may in her private space utter racially insensitive comments. What she fails to realise is that by writing on twitter – in fact by having joined twitter – her hidden transcript becomes public, and as such, should adjust accordingly. Failing to do so exposes her to a possible public berating, legal action for defamation of character or her own personal safety.”
I also note that she did apologize
“I tweeted rather irresponsibly about an incident I encountered last night, using a harsh and unkind word about the gentleman who had confronted me with sexual remarks and sounds,"

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## Dave A

Thank goodness for Google. I had no idea who this chick was before.

Is "chick" a derogatory term BTW?

The whole "it's ok in private but not in public" line is a crock. If that's the way you think, sooner or later it will emerge.

Another question that popped in my head - When it comes to racial predjudice, what's the difference between Leandra and Juju?

OK - quite a lot I guess just looking at them. But I'm talking about the racist trash they carry around in their head.

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## murdock

i just laugh at these insults...being a contractor and working in an enviroment where there are many people of different races...people of the same race call each other these names...i am not goana write them but you know what i am saying...be it black white or indian we all have names for the other races and calling them by these names doesnt always mean you are being nasty...but sometimes out of pure frustration use the name just to actually get a reaction...and boy does it work.

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## Citizen X

> Is "chick" a derogatory term BTW?
> 
> 
> Another question that popped in my head - When it comes to racial predjudice, what's the difference between Leandra and Juju?
> 
> OK - quite a lot I guess just looking at them. But I'm talking about the racist trash they carry around in their head.


Sexy chick is exactly right! Nothing derogatory there. In principle there's no difference between Jessica and Juju. A measurable difference is the degree of the unacceptable outbursts of racial slurs and hate speec. Juju get's the prize there. He was a repeat offender for inciting violence, racial slurs and hate speech. I do however think that our South African people are generally the forgiving type. I base This on Hanse Cronje and Carl Niehaus. amid several recent allegations that he still hasn't paid his debts many people are willing to forgive him and let him start his life again...

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## adrianh

The big question is howcome a 20 year old has such racist attitudes. She must have learned it somewhere, from her parents, peers?
Another thing is howcome she thinks that all 2500 people who follow her on twitter are white.

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## Justloadit

What I notice is that if a white person says something that is racist, everyone is against them, however, if a black person says something racist, then ja well its OK. How many times did JuJu make racists remarks, before something was done about it?
Scot and Leandra say it once, and the consensus is that they should be hung to dry in a public place. I think that we are being selective in applying the law.

There have been a number of occasions that racist remarks were used in a well known fitness franchise, interestingly the ones that made the headlines were the ones uttered by white folks. Is the media looking for specific instances  in order to arouse interest in their newspapers, or is it that the minority groups may not understand the racist remarks said in the other languages except for English or Afrikaans, or that it really is not a big issue to get riffled over?.

One wanders.

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## Citizen X

Go figure! I don't know, this whole concept of a group of people following you on Twitter is quite daunting. I don't know that I personally  will ever want anyone to be following me on any social network. I'm not disparaging twitter and facebook. It’s common cause that facebook has more than 6,5 million members and growing every minute, it’s common cause that Facebook played an integral role in the Arab uprising by bringing pictures and video footage of violent crack down and gross human rights violations where otherwise such footage would never have been available simply because those regimes were not allowing reporters in those areas. I know that every interest group including political parties, universities, corporate companies, celebrities and everyone else has a facebook page.Personally, TFSA is my first social network encounter and I actually don’t want to be a member of any other social network…

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## adrianh

@justloadit - I think the problem with this case is that the comment was made to 2500 faceless followers who passed it on to all their friends worldwide.

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## Upstairs

Once spoken it is done. Be careful what goes on record when you want to be a fool and famous. One thing is sure. This girl learned a lesson. Hard lessons are good for brats.

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## adrianh

Upstairs - you're quite right

My long time ex boss said something that stuck with me throughout the years: _You must learn that you can't call somebody a d00$ and then say you're sorry, it just doesn't work that way_ (This was of course just after I did exacty that)

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## Justloadit

I still think that people are making a mountain of a molehill. 

I think more energy should be expended in helping the masses improve their living standards, as with the thread were a toddler electrocuted himself on the shack due to to an illegal connection.

It seems that people are more concerned with racism, then actually improving the living standards. If more enthusiasm was used to do this, racism would actually extinguish itself out. Racism, and I am not even referring to the situation in RSA,  is sustained when there a huge financial divide across population groups. It is the same type of hatred that emerges against a fantastic player of the opposing team who kills your dream with his exceptional skills.

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## adrianh

It is just an issue because so many people now have a common scapegoat.

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## Citizen X

I suppose on a sensitive matter such as this, one can only really speak for oneself. I personally have accepted her apology and have since moved on. She's young and still has her whole life ahead of her.....

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## murdock

i decided to go check out this story...she could call me anything she wanted even if she had a whip and she was punishing me  :Wink: ...she is refered to as a sex kitten...now i can see why...i am sure even black people will be taking a second look at some of those images....i dont beleive you could compare darren scotts prpblem to this honeys problem...i guarentee she is getting more hits than ever since this issue and it sure as hell wont stop the boys looking...in fact i am considering downloading a pic or 2 as my screen saver...yuuuummmmmyyyyy

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## murdock

the big question should be so what happened to the rude "gentleman"  who made these sexual remarks and sounds...she should be sueing him for sexual harrasment...but unfortunelty here is sa...raping or sexually abusing women is a way of life...considering it happens like ever 17 seconds or something ridiculous...using the big K word is a far more serious offence as indicated by the reaction of people in this country...it is actually very sad...fhm are the ones who are gona be loosing out...the fellas are just gona be looking for her where ever she goes to from here....the magazines must be fighting over who will get her next.

she wrote: 'I tweeted rather irresponsibly about an incident I encountered last night, using a harsh and unkind word about the gentleman who had confronted me with sexual remarks and sounds.

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## adrianh

The problem is that she also tweeted a while ago saying that a petrol attendant was a 'african monkey'. People let the first comment slide but when they confronted her about the second comment she defended the comment by saying she was harrased. Nobody said that she shouldn't react to being harassed, people are saying that she shouldn't insult an entire race of people because one person harassed her. Another thing that upset lots of people is that she used the 'k' word which is not a term that should have been in her vocabulary considering that she grew up as a post '94 'rainbow child'. The big problem is that she is represents her sponsors and thus their values. Remember what happened to Tiger Woods, he didn't even insult anybody, he just screwed around. Sponsors are very sensitive because bad publicity could sink them.

I think that the issue is not so much about her personally but more about the fact that such a young person could hold such attitudes in general. We all agree that she is young and that she ffed up and apologized. She should be forgiven for her mistake, but, be that as it may there is a much bigger picture. The bigger picture is not that one should totally end the careers
 of those that make mistakes, but to understand what goes on in the heads of young people and to educate them appropriately.

Think about  this; I can only assume that she would never insult her sponsors or religion in public, yet she felt it ok to insult an entire race in public, why - stupidity yes, but the thinking is that the 'k' word should not have been part of her daily vocabulary. I think that i she said 'a black dude' rather than a 'k' it wouldn't have been an issue.

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## Justloadit

This morning on 702 - Talk Radio, John Robbie, mentioned that a black model tweeted that "all whites must die", I can not even find a news headline mentioning this. If this is not racist, then we have our definitions screwed up.

Just shows you, again that situation that stories are selective, and that the headlines are made for self interest, and are designed to bring emotions into the front, and to promote racism.
Talk about being biased towards a minority group.

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## Petrichor

> This morning on 702 - Talk Radio, John Robbie, mentioned that a black model tweeted that "all whites must die", I can not even find a news headline mentioning this.


There was a smallish article about it, but as you will see, most of this article was still focussed on Jessica Leandra Dos Santos 

http://www.iol.co.za/news/south-afri...weet-1.1290326

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## adrianh

Look this girl up in google: Elizabeth Lambert

She played a soccer match one afternoon and got quite rough. She didn't kill anybody or anything, she was just downright nasty...but...the event was filmed and got onto the net...Her entire world got turned upside down and she will forever be known as "*The* female football hooligan". As if nobody has played really rough before or after. Now really, lets be honest, there are times when we all do things that we are not proud of and regret but should such things end your life for no other reason than becoming public knowledge and thus becoming a common scapegoat.

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## wynn

check this out
A warning for mankind: Beware the new Big Brother

http://www2.dailymaverick.co.za/arti...ew-big-brother

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## Citizen X

There's the real danger of one racial outburst, it will a knock off effect. The unnecessary retailiation. Both parties are equally wrongThis is the reason why we should be socially responsible and not engage in racism. We still need ongoing reconciliation in our country. Part of this process is forgiveness when a person apologizes. Both ladies should be given another chance. It’s a lesson learnt. Both these ladies should realize that their individual actions can cause impressionable school and university students to react detrimentally towards each other, it can cause neighbors to react.

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## Blurock

It is sad that things like this still happen. It may be a habit of expressing yourself, such as "I will kill you", without really meaning it. The truth is how other people experience what you do or say, not what you actually meant.

The other thought that crossed my mind is that; if you want to pose naked or semi naked in girly magazines, you should expect men (ALL MEN) to react to it in some way, whether positive or negative. If you offer yourself as a toffee, expect to get chewed.

The guy in question (guy-not gentleman) should also be ashamed of his chauvinistic behaviour. :No:

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## Dave A

> check this out
> A warning for mankind: Beware the new Big Brother
> 
> http://www2.dailymaverick.co.za/arti...ew-big-brother


Actually, that article deserves another thread. Certainly an interesting topic.




> The other thought that crossed my mind is that; if you want to pose naked or semi naked in girly magazines, you should expect men (ALL MEN) to react to it in some way, whether positive or negative. If you offer yourself as a toffee, expect to get chewed.


I had something similar wander through my mind - it's ok to have suggestive images sent out to the world, but making suggestive noises are a no-no?

But on reflection, there is a difference between _personal_ and _in person_. And of course if a women dresses to flaunt her assets it doesn't mean she's inviting all and sundry to bed her against her will.

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## adrianh

The Big Brother story - The biggest pronlem is that nobody forces anybody to publish all their info on Facebook or Twitter. It is like saying that nobody should repeat what somebody said when that person stood at the top of a building and shouted it out for all to hear.

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## Dave A

In the interests of not derailing this thread, I've made a new thread for the Big Brother topic.

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wynn (10-May-12)

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## Citizen X

I admire both these ladies for the way they turned a seemingly hopeless situation into one in which they are now respected and commended. This really does so much good for ongoing ubuntu and reconciliation. Their target audience the youth will now take heed to what their icons have done wrong.

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## adrianh

...or one can say that the principal told them to shake hands and say sorry in front of the entire school...its all in how you see it.

...perceptions...

...some say the glass is half full, some say the glass is half empty, and wise ones say that the glass is a figment of the imagination of a biased observer....

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## Citizen X

The words of this song are as compelling and as meaningful as they were when they were first penned to paper in the early 80’s(Adrian, I’m not creating another ‘old school music is cool’ thread here. I’ve long since cremated that thread and scattered its ashes!)
Ebony and Ivory
By Paul McCartney & Stevie Wonder

“Ebony And Ivory Live Together In Perfect Harmony 
Side By Side On My Piano Keyboard, Oh Lord, Why Don't We? 

We All Know That People Are The Same Where Ever We Go 
There Is Good And Bad In Ev'ryone, 
We Learn To Live, We Learn To Give 
Each Other What We Need To Survive Together Alive. 

Ebony And Ivory Live Together In Perfect Harmony 
Side By Side On My Piano Keyboard, Oh Lord Why Don't We? 

Ebony, Ivory Living In Perfect Harmony 

We All Know That People Are The Same Where Ever We Go 
There Is Good And Bad In Ev'ryone, 
We Learn To Live, We Learn To Give 
Each Other What We Need To Survive Together Alive. 

Ebony And Ivory Live Together In Perfect Harmony 
Side By Side On My Piano Keyboard, Oh Lord Why Don't We?”

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## adrianh

Its all fine and dandy on a piano keyboard but it simply doesn't work that way in the real world, not even the Americans can get it right. There will always be groups who can't get along, people are unable to get along with their own race let alone all other races. The best one can hope for is for enough tolerance of one another so that groups don't get in each others faces. People can't even get along at work, in church and even at home, yet we belive that everybody are going to stand in a big circle holding hands, it ain't going to happen. Like I said before, we need to strive for tolerance and leave the RA RA for later.

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## Citizen X

Good afternoon Adrian,
I respect your opinion and I do understand your perspective. Notwithstanding this, I’m of the opinion that the vast majority of South Africans want to co exist regardless of their race, religion or political affiliation. I’m of the opinion that the vast majority of South Africans are sincerely happy to live together, work together and go to school and university together. The color of a man’s skin should be of no more significance than the colour of his eyes.
Lenasia is still predominantly Indian. This is only so because of the former atrocious and repugnant ‘group areas Act. I happy to inform that many of my Black and Colored brothers and sisters are moving into Lenasia.  I never wanted to live only among Indian people. The only reason I did so, was because we were forced to do so. I’m personally not aware of many White people that have moved to Lenasia but they should. Our main shopping centre here in Lenasia, The Trade Route Mall attracts consumers of all races and this makes me feel that we not that isolated. This is a good thing. I personally have a few Black friends that have married White woman and it’s working rather quite nicely for them. I also see many inter racial couples at the cinemas and this too is very positive, a real step in the right direction. It’s also very enjoyable to shop in a mall that is representative of all races. My sister married a White gentleman. I have a profound respect for my brother in law and his family as they are genuinely very good human beings. From the outset of their relationships we had nothing but pleasant and sincere encounters from both families. We maintain sincere respect for each other. The issue of race was never a problem. Their wedding in and of itself reflected diversity as I have Indian and Coloured family. I have Muslim and Christian family. My sister’s bridesmaid was a Black lady. The wedding reception had Blacks, Indians, Coloreds and Whites. Everyone was sincerely comfortable to be in each other’s presence. I remain optimistic for the future!

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## adrianh

Again, thats all fine and dandy but there will always be friction, it is simply human nature. There will be people that get along racial boundries and there are people that won't, it is what it is. I will say it again, it is a matter of tolerance. You must also understand that some find it very difficult to be tolerant because they are excluded because they are white. Racism isn't just when a white man is nasty to a black man, it is also racism when a black man excludes a white man based on the colour of his skin...Do you think that black only organizations, BEE and all that nonsense fosters a sense of equality of race, come on.  Now here is a question; I have a little business that employs 5 people and I need to hire a sixth, do you think I should hire the best man for the job (why, BEE doesn't) should I hire a previously disadvantaged person or should I hire the currently disadvantaged young white who can't get a job because of BEE. I am quite certain that you can guess who I would hire. These issues go deeper than the particular individual, it goes to values and policies, although people respect one another and get along on a high level it doesn't mean that the same holds true at street level.

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## Citizen X

Adrian, it does hold true that there is Black on White reverse racism. This is plain ugly! I believe that it's a minority of Black individuals who engage in such reverse racism. I support redressing past unfairness but not to the detriment of any minority.

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## murdock

as you mention about the colour of our eyes...there should be no discrimination...the only reason we have different colour skin is because of the climate we are designed to live in...just like our hair.

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Citizen X (13-May-12)

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## Citizen X

I couldn't have said it better myself Murdock! Many thanks indeed! You know on the issue of hair, the only scientific purpose hair has is to protect your scalp from sun burn....

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## adrianh

What about racial stereotypes - wrong or right, should it be banned?

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## murdock

if we all want to live together...you have to take out the part of which creates the discrimination...if we were all south africans...there would be nothing to discriminate each other...as soon as you put black...white...coloured...there is discrimination...as long as the goverment discrimintates by enforcing race groups on ID document etc...there will be discrimination...just like making a bit issue of a word...just helps fuel discrimination...we would need to find something else...ethnics group or something along those lines...to fight with each other.

look at america...labeling black people in america african americans just helps fuel the fire...so however the bright spark who started calling black people in america african americans...should be thanked for all the race discrimination...let me reprase this...i believe it would help the racial tension if black people werent refered to as african american...take away the african american part and everyone becomes american...just like in south africa...take away the race grouping...black...white...coloured...indian and we would be one step closer to becoming united "south africans"

creating bodies like the "black lawyers ass." for example also helps fuel racial discrimination...

call me white and take away my rights to certain contracts which feeds my family and all the black people who work "with me"...you are discriminating...stop the discrimination and we will unite as a strong country.

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Dave A (14-May-12)

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## Dave A

I'm starting to think that exposure to a healthy multi-cultural community is a critical ingredient to transforming people's predjudices.

And the emphasis is on "healthy"...

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## Citizen X

1.      In the spirit of healthy discourse I deem it necessary to address the very racial sterio types that plague our South African society. All the racial stereotypes we have have no factual basis, are without merit and perhaps more importantly are both defamatory and very malicious;
2.      It’s not my intention to offend anyone by citing certain stereotypes. If I inadvertently offend anyone please accept my sincere apologies and please study this entire thread in order to establish the context;
3.      I don’t agree with any of the following stereotypes:
“1 - Blacks are criminal
- W_hites are moral_
_- Crimes committed by whites require an explanation_
1A - It is normal for blacks to commit crime
1B - Black criminals are brutal and inhuman
1C - Blacks want revenge against innocent whites
1D - Serious crime occurs primarily in white areas
2 - Blacks are stupid
- _Whites are superior_
_- Whites are more talented/intelligent_
_- Whites are more kind_
_- Whites work harder_
_- Whites are victims_
2A - Blacks lower standards
3 - Blacks are irrational
4 - African society is primitive
4A - African traditions are barbaric
4B - Blacks are simple
4C - Blacks are lazy
4D - Blacks act on instinct
8
4E - Black women breed
4F - Blacks need whites to advance
4G - African history is primitive
4H - Africa doesn’t contribute to world civilisation
4I - Africa is ridden with disaster, disease and violence
4J - There can be no African renaissance
4k – Blacks are child-like
4L – Only Blacks can be African
5 - Blacks are dirty
5A - Blacks live in squalor
5B - Blacks cause disease
5C - Black men cannot control their sexuality
5D - AIDS is an African disease
6 - Black women are ugly
- W_hite women determine what is beautiful_
7 - Black lives are unimportant
_- White lives are important_
- _White victims are personified_
7A – Blacks are used to being injured or killed
7B – Blacks don’t need privacy
7C – Blacks die in large numbers
7D – Black victims wait to be helped
8 - Black foreigners threaten South African society
8A - Black foreigners are criminals
8B - Nigerians are drug dealers
8C - Zimbabweans are gangster
8D - Black foreigners bring disease
8E - Black foreigners steal jobs from South Africans
8F - Illegal immigrants are black
9 - Western society is civilised and modern
_European/white/western events are more important_
10 - Blacks are incompetent and incapable of running anything by themselves
_- Whites are hardworking_
10A - Black government leads to crime and corruption
10B - Black government leads to anarchy and the breakdown of social order
10C - Black government, like Communism, damages society
10D - Black government fails
10E - Blacks are undemocratic
10F - Blacks are power hungry
10G - Black parliamentarians are inefficient and lazy
9
11 - Affirmative action promotes undeserving people
11A - Affirmative action is racial discrimination against whites
11B - Blacks are racist
11C - Black empowerment fails
12 - People act according to their ethnic identity
- Ethnic shorthands explain behaviour
12A - Jews lie and are manipulative
12B - Jews control the economy and the media
12C - Indians are corrupt
12D - Coloureds are degenerate and gangsters
12E - Afrikaners are bigot
12F - White farmers are cruel and exploitative
12G - Muslims support terrorism.
13 – Item supports a racist worldview
(Item validates racist differences)
14 – All whites are racists”


Based on my own experience I can say the following: I have a Black friend Sam, who hates soccer and loves Rugby. My brother in law is White and he hates Rugby and loves soccer. My Black friend Tshepo holds a master degree and is working towards a doctorate. One of my White friends Robert did not finish school and has no qualifications. My Black friend Thomas hates pap and only eats rice. The vast majority of Muslim family and friends I know stand against terrorism and are very peaceful people. All my White friends are not racist.

I don’t share the racial steriotypes listed above. I oppose such stereotypes. I find them to be without merit, malicious and defamatory!

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Dave A (15-May-12)

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## tec0

Vanash > But that is not the real point now is it? Think about this, is this about what can be and what cannot be said out loud? Now in anger people say things because they are angry. Everyone gets angry and sometimes words does get exchanged. Now I have seen with my own eyes how good people lost their work and livelihood just because they spoke out in anger. Is this fair?  

Let me ask you this, would you say that the possibility exist that people became overly sensitive about this topic?

Just have a look at nearly ALL racial bickering and you will find that the actual words was harmless in the long run but because the persons involved wanted to be overly sensitive they escalate till the point where we see people losing their jobs and harsh actions from the law systems. 

Now does the law empower racial bickering? Or is racial bickering protected by the laws?

Also consider this, if the law disregarded any and all forms of racial bickering will people still try to escalate it and force the subject?  Or will it remain mean words that was said in anger and forgotten the next day?

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## murdock

i beleive i am racist...unfortuntely it is not something which i decided on over night...growing up as a white youngster in south africa during the apperheid era and could go into a long drawn out story...which i am not going to do...i do believe i learnt to become a racist over time...i have had many opitunities to leave this country and go where the grass is greener on the other side...instead i have chosen to stay...why because i believe in this country...there are more good people than bad...and i do believe there is hope for this country...if the leadership could lead us in the right direction and set an example in the way they live...i also believe in time i can change my attitude towards people of other race groups race groups and learn to resepct them and their culture...just like i became a racist over a period of time i could change my attitude towards other race groups...when i was a youngster i had indian frieds who i fished with for many years...but unfortunatly because they were indians they were not allowed to come to my house...however i spent time enjoying good food and company in their homes...i was badly beaten with a shambok while leaving one of my fishing mates house by a group of indians who didnt agree with me being in their district...it didnt stop me from going back...just like religion...i beleive we can learn to tolerate each other...the younger generation are already learning to live together...i see it with my kids...they dont have a clour bar...the friends are of all races and they dont see the differnet colour skin...especially not at a young age...

will i always be a racist...i hope not...life is short...just because one person has darker skin than another doesnt make them all the things listed in the previous thread...we just need to respect each other.

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Dave A (15-May-12)

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## Citizen X

> Vanash > Now in anger people say things because they are angry. Everyone gets angry and sometimes words does get exchanged. Now I have seen with my own eyes how good people lost their work and livelihood just because they spoke out in anger. Is this fair? 
> 
> Let me ask you this, would you say that the possibility exist that people became overly sensitive about this topic?


Good afternoon Tec0,
Point taken! It does hold true that people often say things in anger that they don't really mean and regret later. There are many people that are overly sensitive about this topic. The way that these two ladies approached this matter is commendable. They made a full public disclosure and they apologised. I'm merely trying to demonstrate that these stereotypes have no real factual basis!

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## Citizen X

> i beleive i am racist...unfortuntely it is not something which i decided on over night...growing up as a white youngster in south africa during the apperheid era and could go into a long drawn out story...which i am not going to do...will i always be a racist...i hope not...life is short...just because one person has darker skin than another doesnt make them all the things listed in the previous thread...we just need to respect each other.


Good afternoon Murdock, I'm of the opinion that you've raised some pertinent issues! I do really understand where you coming from! The Government of that day led you to believe that Communism was imminent in South Africa if drastic steps were not taken, that communist don't believe in God, that you were in essence in a state of war and that Black people were terrorists that wanted to usher in communism. So, yes, in principal I do understand whu you held the beliefs that you held. Whilst, race was never really an issue for me, I also held prejudices but on the basis of religion. I would engage in heated arguments in favour of Christianity. I made some painful remarks to people of a certain religion in public. I regret this very, very much. With the benefit of hindsight, I have grown since then and no longer have a bias when it comes to religion. My simple stance is that a pesron will stand by their religious beliefs and furthermore it's actually against my religion Christianity to impose my view on others. Xenophobia reared it's ugly head in South Africa in 2008. This was largely due to stereo types about foreigners. Look at this headline from that time:  “Cops said I was an alien! Homeboy angry after jail horror (14/05/2008 p.) This South African individual was not against the xenophobia, he was not against non nationals been arrested and treated brutally by the police, he took very specific exception to the fact that he was mistaken for a non national and treated brutally by the police!Look at this stereo type about Indians, " All Indians are corrupt," The problem with a stereo type is that it can be reinforced by the actions of the minority of Indians i.e. Shabir Shaik i.e. Shabir Shaik is Indian , he's corrupt so all Indians must be equally corrupt. So you see this is the real danger of stereo types. Once you have a preconceived idea about someone in your mind before you get to know that individual personally, you will then react and/or behave towards that individual based on the stereo type. Individual content of character should be the point of departure. This is what I think...

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## adrianh

Ok Vanash, thats quite a list you've got there. I find it interesting that your list is primarily white vs black, what about alll the other people that hate one another. 


Ou broer, all I can say is this, when the shoe fits then it shall be worn. We speak in generalizations based on what we see. If I see a broken Ford Sierra 4 out of 5 time I see a broken car by the side of the road then I feel that I am at liberty to say that a Ford Sierra is a crap car - not so? Why do some believe that people can generalize about everything except race? We know that Chinese people look different but (if the nanny state had its way) we are not allowed to say so, why? So I must tell my kids, no, you musn't say that that guy looks like he could be Chinese because he might be offended??? Now for another question, how is it that we can agree that people could look completely different yet be exactly the same inside, have the exact same cognitive abilities and outlooks. If this is so then howcome a Basset is as dumb as $h1t yet an Alsatian is highly intelligent. Selective breeding you would say, ok, so did Chinese features not evolve for the exact same reason (i.e. developing in isolation). 

Right, now lets move this discussion into the 4th dimension. We are taught from when we are little that we are better than the next guy. Think about it, if Johnny practices at tennis then he will be a better player than everybody else. Johnny has to believe that his boxing opponent is weak and that he is going to crush him. If our team plays hard then we will beat the other team because we are better. If our company is more clever then the other company then we will make more money because we are better than the competition. If we pray harder than the enemy then our diety will save us because we are better than the enemy. If we make more noise than other political parties then we will overcome all the other political parties because they are crap and we are better. If we wave our flag and smite those people who don't want to give us oil its ok because we are better than them......all of this is ok just as long as you don't stoop so low as to use race. (So we can't say that ABSA retrenched 90% of its IT because it all got outsourced to India and that Indians will now be doing the work - we must say that the work will be done by people on the other side of the planet)

This country has reached a point where political correctness has become totally ridiculous. People are not supposed to report race when crime is comitted; Ok, so when a rape suspect is running away and somebody is in pursuit he has to call the police and say "I am chasing a gentleman who has 2 legs, 2 arms, a body, darkish hair, he is only wearing a red speedo but I just simply can't tell what colour he is"....uhhhhhh

Now here is a thought on political correctness: Howcome the media and everybody refer to Jessica as a white 20 year old? - if black people are against racism then they should not have referred to her race now should they? They should have said that a lady (you can't use the word young because in a nanny state middle aged and elderly people would take great offence) Tweeted whatever she did. The manner in which they reacted simply went to prove once again that people fight fire with fire....

If there is one thing that I have learned about people then it is this: We are all hypocrites in some way or another, the only difference between some of us and many others is that we know that we are.

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## Citizen X

Good evening Adrian,
You raise interesting points! That said, the problem with stereo types is that they are a barrier to effective communication becuase an individual will already have preconceived ideas about that person i.e. 'Indians are corrupt,' it just so happens that an Indian by the name of Shabir Shaik commits corruption and is convicted of the same. The sterio type is now reinforced i.e. 'Oh, you see what Shabir Shaik done, so it's true Indians are corrupt.' I don't think it's a problem to refer to a person's race for identification purposes provided that there is no discrimatory intent. The intention should always be looked at. During our census, we were all asked what our race is. In criminal law, for identification purposes to need to mention the race of the suspect but it's not to discriminate against the suspect it's merely for identification purposes. It's quite correct to say that Indians from India will be doing the it work of the retrenched ABSA staff. It's also perfectly inorder to be angry about that fact. In this case the facts are merely stated, but they not stated in a discrimatory manner with intent to hurt or offend the next person. It holds very true, we are all hypocrites in certain ways.....

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## tec0

Discrimination > Unfair treatment of a person or group on the basis of prejudice. 

When an application for a job fails due to the person's status as a minority then it is not considered as discrimination because there are systems emplace that makes it ok? One cannot talk about this because it is taboo…

Yet a simple insult has the brute power to have a person dismissed and incarcerated because there are systems emplace to make it so?

and this is acceptable because?

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## Citizen X

Good evening Tec0,
You raise valid points! I don't support the redressing of past unfairness to the detriment and exclusion of any minority. I belive that affirmative action is now past it's sell by date. We've had a goof 18 years for this. I also don't condone reverse racism by certain minority members of the Indian, Black and Colored community against White individuals. I also don't accept the position of blaming the previous  repungent apartheid regime for every single problem that non whites now have. The past is the past, we can't undo the past. We can however change the future. I believe , perhaps naively so, that all South Africans must forget the past and create a true rainbow nation where our kids can have a bright future with equal opportunity. I believe in ongoing ubuntu and ongoing reconciliation. All South African regardless of their race have a right to enjoy this country equally. I understand that affirmative action makes this notion seem impossible. I'm of the opinion that this matter is one best lobbied in parliament where oppositions parties put a time deadline as to when affirmative action should be stopped and all South Africans can apply for a job strictly on merit and not on race. I also see how millions of Black people are still suffering in the informal settlements. I think creative ways should be conjured up to keep all South Africans happy....

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## adrianh

So why don't those people suffering in the informal settlements get off their butts and do something for themselves. They will be ever so surprised to find that food actually grows in the ground, that rubbish can be picked up by themselves, that they can cook food together and don't actually have to burn their shacks down in the process, that they can build their own toilets, that they can...must I continue....I have very little sympathy for people who do nothing for themselves....

You see, there are concepts that do not fit in my view of the world; being handed a house, jumping up and down and demanding stuff and burning whatever is at hand, this one sided nonsense called democracy, suffering due to one's own lazyness/stupidity, standing on a street corner every day begging to buy air time...again, shall I continue...

I work hard and I educate myself, I don't burn anything and I don't blame anybody or any diety for my circumstance and I don't expect anybody to do anything for me for free, its not about being black or white, it is about taking responsibility for your own life.

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## tec0

Well I believe people must help themselves yes. I do also believe that education systems must be made available so that people can do just that. The responsibility starts with government giving people the education they need to purify water for drinking and using it for plants. 

How to grow plants is easy enough however again you need the very basics called seeds and they cost round about R8 a packet "you do get them cheaper" then you need time. Thing is simple yet effective recourses can be made available and it will be inexpensive.

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## gac

Im with VN in that I am very wary of all these social networks. Apart from being gross time wasters, stealing precious time from our lives in their all consuming nature, they're dangerous! Keeping up with The Forum is tough enough and together with Google, they're a source of more information I could ever need. Shouting your mouth off on a network such as Twitter is just plain dumb!

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## adrianh

Tec0 - yes I agree , the government must provide, I mean, how on earth are people supposed to do anything at all for themselves. There must be something wrong with me to educate myself and work very hard to make a better life for my family, better toi toi, burn my neighbours house down and demand that the government supply me with 64 inch plasma tv, and if they don't them I will blockade my street by burning my own car's tyres.

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## tec0

> Tec0 - yes I agree , the government must provide, I mean, how on earth are people supposed to do anything at all for themselves. There must be something wrong with me to educate myself and work very hard to make a better life for my family, better toi toi, burn my neighbours house down and demand that the government supply me with 64 inch plasma tv, and if they don't them I will blockade my street by burning my own car's tyres.


Ok let me spell it out for you. The average pay per day is less then R20 for these people. Now you expect them to do what exactly? Spend it on seeds that will only become food in a few weeks? A post like this just pisses me off really. Here is the deal government can provide for the seeds to be planted now in their infinite bugged that is in the BILLIONS is that just too much to ask for? 

Really!!! Honestly!!!

People can read I am sure they will see the mindset in the end.  

Two years ago I donated a box of mixed seeds to a daily loaner. Not long thereafter he came and showed me all the veggies and stuff he had grown for him and his family and because he had the food he spend the money on more seeds and other stuff like blankets. He is not working anymore he is growing food and selling it where he lives. He is doing well for himself. Now that is what a single act of kindness can do…

Fact is on a R20 budget and children to feed guess what I expect people to buy food that can be consumed within the same day.

Also training is not cheap! Try and guess what a single N3 subject cost? And remember you cannot access the government facility due to whatever reason so you have to do it where it is close to you.

I get it!!! You work hard for your money… You had to study hard to get where you are at. I did the same and am still learning new tricks to maintain an income. But fact is circumstances is the regulator here. That is fact.

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## Justloadit

Ha, reminds me of an employee I had many years ago in a company I was a director, which manufactured technical training equipment. We had an extensive library of the training manuals with the equipment available to any one wishing to use it. One particular staff member one day turned round to me, and said that the reason he was not educated in the technical field was because the government at the time never allowed hm to go to tertiary education, I am sure you know what my answer was - stop blaming every one else but yourself, you have all the facilities right here to study and to educate yourself in the technical field you desire, you even have staff here that will be able to guide you. Well to this day, still blames the previous government.

Also reminds me of the time I wanted to train the staff, and was quite prepared to spend my lunch times doing this, well no one pitched up. The consensus is that training must be done during working hours, not on their own time - WTF

Well after that incident, I just did not care anymore - here I was offering an opportunity, which when it came my way I had jumped in with both feet.

So this says  lot, does it not.

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## adrianh

tec0 - yes man, I agree with you, the government must provide, how on earth are they supposed to do anything for themselves. Ag shame man, just think about it, having nothing better to do than to make babies and wait for the truck full of plasma tv's to arrive. (no, scratch that idea, the road is covered with burning tyres) Then of course they could wait for manna to fall from the sky (no, scratch that idea, the government didn't provide manna catching nets) Then there was the library (no, that was burned down last week) oh I nearly forgot, then there is the school (no, we burned that down because there were too few classes - we thought that if you have 5 classrooms and you burn down 5 classrooms then you have 10 classrooms because 5 and 5 is 10...strange thing this mathematics - must be a white thing)

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## adrianh

@Justloadit - I am yet to see a begger begging for knowledge.

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## tec0

> Ag shame man, just think about it, having nothing better to do than to make babies


Do you know what happens to those new born children? Look I can see you are trying to tick me off. But no… I have eyes I have a mind and both is working well for now. Fact is you see what you want to see and I cannot change that. I am not going to try. 





By the way adrianh are you going to PM me or what?

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## adrianh

> Do you know what happens to those new born children



yes, they sit around waiting for the government to provide...

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## tec0

> yes, they sit around waiting for the government to provide...


If you say so adrianh…

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## adrianh

_Some say the glass is half empty and some say the glass is half full, yet others say that they will keep breaking the glass until the government provides an ever overflowing beer mug_    :Stick Out Tongue:

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## wynn

I have yet to see a cardboard sign that says " mna bandwana lambile, awukho mali, awukho umsebenzi'!!!
Excuse the spelling Xhosa was never a subject at school.

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## tec0

> I have yet to see a cardboard sign that says " mna bandwana lambile, awukho mali, awukho umsebenzi'!!!
> Excuse the spelling Xhosa was never a subject at school.


meaning?

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## adrianh

Oh thats easy, the first part means "I am going to get off my butt and buy carrot seed instead of airtime with the money you give me" the second part means "Then I will try not to smoke the carrot seed to get high"

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wynn (17-May-12)

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## Dave A

My family's hungry.
No money.
No job.

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tec0 (17-May-12)

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## tec0

> My family's hungry.
> No money.
> No job.


Thanks my languages are limited to Afrikaans English and a "car" Sign-language  :Smile: 

That would be a first to see…

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## wynn

> Thanks my languages are limited to Afrikaans English and a "car" Sign-language 
> 
> That would be a first to see…


And that is exactly why the signs are always in english or afrikaans, reverse racism is alive and well even among the beggars, whities and other lighties can't read an indigineous language and blacks who can don't give.

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## Justloadit

> And that is exactly why the signs are always in english or afrikaans, reverse racism is alive and well even among the beggars, whities and other lighties can't read an indigineous language and blacks who can don't give.


Your are walking in dangerous territory here. Making general statements, you may feel so but I have seen the opposite happening on a few occasions, I have seen blacks giving money to white beggars at traffic lights.

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## Citizen X

That's the real danger of stereo types, they are actually a barrier to effective communication. take this stereo type for example" "All Indians are corrupt," Shabir Shaik just happens to be Indian and was convicte for corruption, so the stereo type is reinforced, 'Oh, you see what that Shabir Shaik done, so it must be true, all Indians are corrupt.' In practice you'll then get a situation where you doing business with an Indian, who may be the most credible person around, but that perception is there i.e. I must be careful with this guy...

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