# Social Category > The Whistleblower Forum >  Stop the retrenchments @ Absa

## Blurock

How do Forum SA members feel about the retrenchments at Absa?

If what is being reported is true, the way in which Absa is conducting the retrenchments is truly scandalous.
It appears as if the rot has started since Booysen and his board sold out to Barclays. He and his deputies got R18.5mil each out of the deal and Bloody Mary was appointed @ R20 mil. How many jobs could have been saved with R75.5 mil plus the packages negotiated afterwards?

For more information and a video showing an interview with retrenched staff, go to

http://www.stopabsa.co.za/  :Batman:

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## wynn

Banks are low life bottom feeding scum suckers and that is the good ones!!

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## tec0

I don't get it, I seriously don’t. It is Ok for labour brokers to destroy every full time job in South Africa but it is not ok of a bank to retrench? If anything I thought it was a good thing because most of those people where lazy and one couldn’t get them to help you even if you pleaded with them. Not to mention the retrenchments will probably "up" ABSA investments. 

Every time I complaint about labour brokers I was told to take it, it is a dog eats dog world and guess what if it is our jobs that got taken most people couldn't give a damn. Now that you see what retrenchment really is and how bad it is now you want to complain… 

All I say is take a side and stick with it… If you don’t like retrenchment then I am sorry to say but businesses are the number two cause next to corruption. Now imagine all those people sitting without work… Imagine how their families will suffer how mom and dad must now hop around from home to home being slowly liquidated into poverty. The same is true for the victims of labour brokers… 

This IS the cold truth and will soon be the reality for every employee throughout South Africa. I am sorry to say this I really am… But I hope this shows people exactly what they are supporting. 

Now you can point out the differences between "restructuring" "labour brokers" and "Retrenchment" but all of them will have the same effect on the employees that much you know is true.

Also if you think they are not connected "labour brokers" and "Retrenchment" take a second look because they are...

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## Just Gone

tec I dont get it that you dont get it !!!!  If you seriously cant see the problem with all the retrenchments at Absa and you dont understand the practicality of labour brokers ..... then its no use even replying to you.

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## Blurock

In all industries there are the problem ones that give the industry a bad name. I assume that tecO is referring to the bakkie brigade that may trade illegally by not being registered and supplying labour below the minimum wage. I also have a problem with that kind of labour broking.

There are however more professional people higher up the food chain that provide skills training and actually perform an HR function which also protects the labourer. They keep a data base of people who register with them and can match the person with the skills required for the job. This may vary from basic labour to artisans to IT specialists.

Some of my clients have used a labour broker effectively as an employment agency where some of these temps were eventually given full time employment. Maybe the unions should get involved in labour broking to see that the interests of their members are served effectively? 

My experience is that the greatest percentage of our labour force are not unemployed, but rather unemployable. Why do the unions not provide basic training to improve skills? Literacy, basic communication skills, customer service, welding, bricklaying are but a few that come to mind. The unions are forever fighting for higher wages, but do nothing to improve the quality of labour.

To get back to ABSA, retrenchments may be necessary in some businesses, but it is the WAY in which is was done and then Maria Ramos denying the retrenchments that makes this unpalatable. :No:

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tec0 (03-Apr-12)

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## Dave A

> My experience is that the greatest percentage of our labour force are not unemployed, but rather unemployable.


The "greatest percentage" may be argued, but certainly applicable to some  :Frown:  




> Why do the unions not provide basic training to improve skills? Literacy, basic communication skills, customer service, welding, bricklaying are but a few that come to mind. The unions are forever fighting for higher wages, but do nothing to improve the quality of labour.


In labour's mind, that is the employer's responsibility  :Stick Out Tongue: 

Like everything else.

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## tec0

Sadly I have seen firsthand what labour brokers are about. Large organisations like to use labour brokers with bad business ethics. They use them because they solve problems discreetly and cheaply. 

Sadly people deny this they don’t believe that it is possible in our perfect world that a person can lose their job for any and every reason that the employers give. Now I have tried to convince them but frankly they just don’t care they are right the rest of the world is wrong. So be it...

Now back to ABSA, as a company with investors they are obligated to do things cheaply, now cheaply will include nasty frowned upon tactics used in there retrenchment program. I don’t agree with it but as this is a soulless world we live in we simply must accept it after all it is a dog eat dog world...

After all labour brokers are accepted in the dog eats dog system and it is all good “for some”  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 

I personally hate the fact that this dog eats dog system even exist and I did close my ABSA account because of their actions but that will not fix things... It is time to take a side, if you feel jobs and people are important then identify the systems that you know is bad and work against those systems.

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## tec0

> tec I dont get it that you dont get it !!!!  If you seriously cant see the problem with all the retrenchments at Absa and you dont understand the practicality of labour brokers ..... then its no use even replying to you.


I am fully rational and as posted on the link about 10% must go. So what can we do about it? Close our accounts and open a new one taking both time and lose some money while doing it? What else can we do? Nothing comes to mind 

The people creating the problem are safely in another country having a cup of tea But if you think 10% is a large number compare it to the thousands working for labour brokers How many of them have job security do you think? Or get paid properly? 

I do feel bad for the hard working people at ABSA but some of them where not hardworking at all. Fact is if you walked into an ABSA the managers did their best to ignore us the clients. I also experienced that they will misplace important documents and refuse to hand out chipped cards to customers thus refusing to protect them. 

Funny thing however, labour brokers are in use because the general business claim that ALL employees are BAD because it justify them using this horrible system. 

The truth is 

*NOT THE UNION NOR ABSA EMPLOYEES JUMPED UP AND DOWN TO PROTECT US!* 

Now we are all contractors so called business men/women working like rats No financial security no investment security no future that is what labour brokers are all about.

They robbed the employees of financial stability there lively hoods  :Banghead:

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## Just Gone

Its not neccessary the "bad" employers that have forced businesses to go to labour brokers - its the government with petty laws that have forced it!   I would much rather use a labour broker - if the employee gives me kak I phone them up and get a new guy immediately!

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## tec0

> if the employee gives me kak I phone them up and get a new guy immediately!


Sounds good doesnt it now how is this mentality any different from the one driving the mass retrenchment at ABSA?  :Oops: 

That said, imagine for a moment you need to do work and you use a labour broker. Things go well for a few months and for some reason the labour broker deems you less then worthy of their business and pull out every worker. 

What happens to your company? 
What happens to your deadlines? 

And most important of them all what happens to your income? 

This will happen to you as the demand for skilled workers will increase and the labour broker finds a bigger fish...

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## Just Gone

Sorry you are way off track - I have a friend that works for / with Ramos and how she is going about it really sucks!

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## Citizen X

The concept of the greater good of the future existence of the company as opposed to the lesser evil of retrenchment is a tough one! On the one hand they saying if x amount of people don't go the entire future of the company is at stake and on the other hand that if a certain percentage of staff are retrenched it will be for the greater good of the company. Again, I really don't know! Whilst retrenchment is equally compelling for all retrenched, I think it's more heart wrenching for the mum and dad who have no other experience , no qualifications and a family to support. I think all you guys raise important points!

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## Blurock

Should staff be marched out of the building by security staff when they are retrenched?

Are retrenchments really necessary when your executive earn R20.7 million p.a.?  :Censored:

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tec0 (03-Apr-12)

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## tec0

> Should staff be marched out of the building by security staff when they are retrenched?
> 
> Are retrenchments really necessary when your executive earn R20.7 million p.a.?


Looking at ABSA only now, I would say no, retrenchment on this level is bad and one can only question why the government doesn’t get involved but the people are. Fact is many people will be closing there ABSA accounts because of this make no mistake. 

South Africans will not take this action lightly but sadly that is all we can do... close our accounts and soon. There is nothing more we can do.

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## adrianh

So, prevention is better than cure, if you don't employ the people in the first place them you don't need to retrench them then do you.

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## tec0

Agreed however, ABSA needs to consider the fact that they are still primarily dependant on South Africans and if this is how they repay South Africans for their loyalty then you just know that South Africans will not take kindly to this.

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## Blurock

> So, prevention is better than cure, if you don't employ the people in the first place them you don't need to retrench them then do you.


How can you have a business without employing people? (I am not talking about our home based businesses which is basically just playing around for pocket money).

A lesson from ancient times;
A potter discovers clay and starts making beautiful, functional pots. By not employing people, he has to stop working to go dig for the clay. He then has to make the pot, stop work to fire the kiln and then bake the clay pots. He's lucky if he makes one pot per day.

By employing people, he can now work on new designs and show his staff how to make the pots. Some staff will be allocated to finding clay and others to fire the kiln or deliver pots to his customers. The multiplier effect provides him with enough pots to trade for livestock, skins and building materials. His workers also benefit as they share in the prosperity created.

Being a master of his art, the potter will eventually dabble into objets d'art and make even more money. He will have time to do this as he has staff taking care of the mundane work which frees him up to use his brain. :Hmmm:

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## Petrichor

The sad reality is that ABSA will not realise any long term benefits through these retrenchments. Sure, they will have some cost savings in terms of salary costs in the short term, but the impact on productivity and staff morale will have a profound impact on their business as a whole, not even mentioning the damage it does to their brand and client perception. It's a lose-lose situation if you ask me.

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Blurock (04-Apr-12), tec0 (04-Apr-12)

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## Blurock

Absa used to be a proud South African institution with friendly, competent staff. It has won many accolades for best bank, best place to work etc. 

The rot started when Nallie Bosman left. Nallie started as a teller and eventually became CEO. He understood the pressure on staff and introduced many morale boosting incentives which had a positive impact on productivity. After he left the staff profit share incentive was first to go. (this incentive went down to the lowest levels, including cleaning staff).

When Barclays took over, morale dropped and gained momentum. Barclays is totally different and un-South African. :Alien:

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tec0 (04-Apr-12)

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## tec0

Sadly this is a window into our future. Fact is people cannot work there way up anymore. And again labour brokers are partly responsible for that as well. No permanent employees means no promotions or any advancement of any kind ever again. 

ABSA became a clear example of this fact. They don't use labour brokers yet but I can see this happening as they can scale up and scale down at leisure and we will suffer for it. So one gets harsh and bitter but can you really blame anyone for the frustration? 

The answer is no, you cannot blame people to fight for permanent work and the need for labour laws. Without it profit at ALL cost will get an old meaning back. An example is a man a mile philosophy whereby there will be a fatality at every single mile.

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## Citizen X

I actually feel very strongly about the ABSA retrenchments a close relative of mine works for ABSA and has to contend with this constant fear of being retrenched. I can attest to the fact that she has several university degrees and numerous years corporate experience and I sincerely hope that she will not be affected by this. It's a tough one, who gets to be given a place on the life boat while the Titanic is sinking? I'm sure all ABSA staff have valid reasons for not being retrenched! There were many reasons why I decided to study further and one of them was job security, I want to be in a field where I can earn my own income and not live in fear of retrenchment...

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tec0 (04-Apr-12)

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## adrianh

To be serious for a moment, it is terrible that big organizations are able to dump large numbers of people at will. Many people buy into the one company for life ideal only to find that at 45 they are retrenched and unemployable because all their knowledge is vested in a single companies systems.

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tec0 (04-Apr-12)

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## Just Gone

> Sadly this is a window into our future. Fact is people cannot work there way up anymore. And again labour brokers are partly responsible for that as well. No permanent employees means no promotions or any advancement of any kind ever again. 
> 
> ABSA became a clear example of this fact. They don't use labour brokers yet but I can see this happening as they can scale up and scale down at leisure and we will suffer for it. So one gets harsh and bitter but can you really blame anyone for the frustration?


Sorry but how are labout brokers "partly" responsible for retrenchements and why no promotions if you are working thro a labour broker ?? what utter crap !  Labour brokers staff get promoted all the time - I know of labour broker staff having worked for companies up to 10 years !!!

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## Citizen X

It actually heart wrenching that a retrenchment can unravel your entire life for the worst! I don't think it will affect young single educated individuals as much as it would affect married persons with kids...

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## Citizen X

I just watched the video in Blurocks first post! The one gentleman explains how empty boxes were already placed in the corridors and you were simply called in, told it was your time to go and perhaps more insulting they even helped you pack your box! This gentleman explains how he was escorted to his desk like a criminal i.e. maybe you'll steal something on your way out! So, yes, I've sent my letter of support and I think that Solidarity is doing a great job!

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## tec0

> Sorry but how are labout brokers "partly" responsible for retrenchements and why no promotions if you are working thro a labour broker ?? what utter crap !  Labour brokers staff get promoted all the time - I know of labour broker staff having worked for companies up to 10 years !!!


I was trying to avoid this bickering but in truth no company can promote a person if they are not directly employed. Yes you can give them different responsibilities and a bit more money but as you yourself have pointed out if for any reason whatsoever that person can just as easily lose everything. So in reality it is not what you claim it to be. 

Secondly let us look at the larger picture. Correct me if I am wrong but if an employee works for a labour broker they receive a payslip every month as this is good practice. Now with this payslip these individuals can go and make a loan at the bank because they have proof of employment and so on.  

Now "IF" this person gives someone some trouble about something and they get replaced. That person is effectively not earning any more money and thanks to a bad name created by the parties responsible they may not get work for some time. 

The loan itself becomes a direct loss to the bank. So the more times this happen the more bad investments for the bank and presto retrenchment closing of branches and all the bad stuff that goes with it.

If you still think this is utter nonsense then we agree to disagree. You have your reasons I have my own.

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## tec0

> I just watched the video in Blurocks first post! The one gentleman explains how empty boxes were already placed in the corridors and you were simply called in, told it was your time to go and perhaps more insulting they even helped you pack your box! This gentleman explains how he was escorted to his desk like a criminal i.e. maybe you'll steal something on your way out! So, yes, I've sent my letter of support and I think that Solidarity is doing a great job!


Fear not ABSA will lose a lot of customers very soon I hope a lot of people will be moving there accounts very soon.

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## adrianh

I can't see ABSA losing lots of customers over this, it's become a way of life, companies grow and companies shrink. It's in the media because of the involvement of the unions. I worked for a large fruit exporter a couple of years ago that merged with another. People were retrenched every year for 3 years straight as duplicate functions within the merged company were streamlined. I worked with a large financial group in Namibia who effectively outsourced their IT infrastucture by creating an IT company and combining the IT infrastructures from the various companies into one...a lot of blood flowed as people scattered. I think that ABSA would spin it by saying that they either have to streamline their operations and lower their internal costs or the customer would simply have to pay more for their services. Of course, they would say that they need to remain competitive therefore they can't increase their fees...

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## Dave A

I was kinda wondering...

There's a bit of a process that has to be followed before a retrenchment (and no doubt was in this case). What suggestions were put forward in that consultation process?

Let's say the goal was to cut staffing costs by 10% for example. Would the staff have proposed or accepted a 10% pay cut instead of the retrenchments?

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tec0 (06-Apr-12)

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## Blurock

> Let's say the goal was to cut staffing costs by 10% for example. Would the staff have proposed or accepted a 10% pay cut instead of the retrenchments?


a 10% cut in the CEO's pay would save them R2,070,000 p.a. Same contribution could be made by the rest of the executive.

I am sure that other measures could have been taken, but as far as I know, no negotiations were made with staff. What hurts them however, is the way that the retrenched people are being marched out of the building by security staff. :Frown:  :Mad:

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## tec0

Consider the fact that there name was put to shame with a sport's debacle not too long ago. This is the aristocrats getting back at the South African public for taking a stand back then 

As we all agree, there are many other choices that could have been made but wasnt? Why is that? Is this not payback? 

You decide

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## Citizen X

Yes, what exactly are you supposed to steal on your way out in that 2 minutes it takes you to be escorted out? Surely, you can't carry your desk with you on your way out!

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## Dave A

> What hurts them however, is the way that the retrenched people are being marched out of the building by security staff.





> Yes, what exactly are you supposed to steal on your way out in that 2 minutes it takes you to be escorted out? Surely, you can't carry your desk with you on your way out!


A small USB drive with an important file or more, perhaps?

Seriously this is nothing new, particularly when staff with access to sensitive information are leaving. Many years ago an acquaintance of mine resigned from a life assurance firm where he was a broker on commission only. When he tendered his resignation, he was not even allowed to return to his desk. He could leave with his car keys and that was it.

His personal effects were returned to him in a box a few days later.

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## adrianh

So, what do we learn from this: Always keep up to date offsite backups of all your employers information that you want to appropriate. 

That way you won't be caught unaware and miss that critical last 2 minute window to swipe all of it  :Batman:

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