# Social Category > General Chat Forum >  Energy Crisis and Daylight saving time!

## vieome

Just wondering if Daylight saving time was introduced would it help with current energy crisis. Has there ever being talk of Daylight saving time in South Africa. What are your thoughts on that?

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## tec0

i personally think we are past the point where we can actually control demand. The Power-Stations cannot provide enough for everyone regardless of the time of day. See the industry and fabrication is a 24/7 job so regardless of the time the energy consumption will stay the same "unless if you use solar energy then I can see a big change. And yes office and admin can well benefit from the idea. But as far as heavy industry goes our best and only solution is a nice big nuclear reactor generating massive amounts of energy. 

I don't think that we have an alternative because there is just so many ways to generate power at the moment. Truth is without power we don't have an economy and there cannot be job creation because businesses and fabrication needs what it needs. But I digress. 

Daylight saving? YES for office and businesses that can use alternative power this is a solution but for heavy industry? I honestly don't know...

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## Dave A

:Hmmm:  We'd probably get more of the cooking done before the streetlights came on. That might help some.

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## IanF

The cows don't like it!



> "The farmers were the reason we never had a peacetime daylight saving time until 1966. They had a powerful lobby and were against it vociferously."
> 
> Many farmers still don't like DST, including some dairy farmers, who find that cows' natural milking schedules don't adapt easily to a sudden shift.


From National Geographic
Some businesses in say New York start at 9 am businesses in the next time zone start at 8 am so they can still sync.

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## Phil Cooper

It was proposed a couple of years back.

Unions opposed - "was way to make de wekkas work extra hours (where)?

Dropped like a hot cake by guvmint.

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## adrianh

It's done in Namibia. Their view is that it is counter productive because they get an hour less work done if they are dependent on South Africa. Further, all that daylight saving does is shift the entire demand curve by an hour.

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pmbguy (03-Dec-13)

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## Justloadit

Yes but you don't understand, the demand right now is between 6 and 9 PM, if you bring daylight saving, then the time is different, and then ESKOM can cope because it will finish earlier, can't you see  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## adrianh

Ah....me tooo stupeed for ESKOM logeeek   :Slap:

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## wynn

'Well you see, the reason is, because, why? it means I have to wake up an hour earlier and get to work an hour earlier, why you do this?

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## IanF

I heard the Eskom guy on radio say daylight saving will save about 1% in peak demand. So no use on that front.

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## Dave S

> 'Well you see, the reason is, because, why? it means I have to wake up an hour earlier and get to work an hour earlier, why you do this?


And the cANCer will reply, "It's an Apartheid thing, we have no control..."

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## tec0

I take it you never worked 12 hour shifts before? You get up at about 5:00am or 5:00pm depending if you are on dayshift or nightshift. You have to be at work at round about 6:00am or 6:00pm depending on the shift. So I really don’t see how daylight savings will have any impact whatsoever when it comes to shifts.   

I say this because you will have to put in 12 hours of work regardless.

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## adrianh

So tec0, will the days then be 25 hours long?

We want the wekkas to work more hours because they get more sunlight.

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## tec0

> So tec0, will the days then be 25 hours long?
> 
> We want the wekkas to work more hours because they get more sunlight.


Where we use to work 14 hour shift was not uncommon. As for your 25 hour day it will become a reality "eventually" but not in my lifetime thankfully. Every 18 months or so "give or take" a leap second is added to what is called "planetary time". This is done to keep the day "Synchronised"  with things like "atomic clocks". But don't take my word for it you know all the "intelligent" people ask them...

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## HR Solutions

> As for your 25 hour day it will become a reality


Ummmm I don't think so .....

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## tec0

As far as I know in the old days astronomers and now scientists/NASA know more or less what the earth's rotational speed is. I think they calculate this by observing the position of the sun in the sky during eclipses like a solar eclipse. They have been doing that for well over 2000 years. But the rotational rate isn't a pure constant. Our normal day/night is about 10 to 25 millionths of a second "slower" every year give or take. I know from some Googeling and a TV show that it will take 100 to 140 million years before we will get a 25 hour day. Now I will be long dead before that  :Stick Out Tongue:

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## adrianh

tec0 - you have it by the ar$e hairs of a donkey. Leap seconds are not added because the earth spins faster and faster all the time. Leap seconds are sometimes added because the rotational rate of the earth varies and because our measure of time does not fit perfectly into the rotational rate of the earth. The earth does not rotate through 360 degrees in exactly 24 hours (or 86400 seconds) the rate is every so slightly off at 86400.001798 seconds or 864.0003987 seconds or whatever. This means that they need to compensate for the error in our coarse measurement of time (seconds) by adding a second every now and again because our clocks become out of sync with the exact GMT position of the earth. A second is simply a convenient measure of time because it is very close to the rotational rate of the earth. The only reason atomic clocks were introduced is to ensure that various countries have the same measure that is considered to be one second. Do you realize that atomic clocks also drift and have to be calibrated to one another every so often. Those clocks are affected by all sorts of things like gravity, solar flares, etc.

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HR Solutions (05-Dec-13)

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## Blurock

> I take it you never worked 12 hour shifts before? You get up at about 5:00am or 5:00pm depending if you are on dayshift or nightshift. You have to be at work at round about 6:00am or 6:00pm depending on the shift. So I really dont see how daylight savings will have any impact whatsoever when it comes to shifts.   
> 
> I say this because you will have to put in 12 hours of work regardless.


Working an 12 hour or 18 hour day has nothing to do with daylight saving. Daylight saving has to do with when you need to switch the lights on. In Durban it is impossible to sleep after 5am, so you may just as well start working or going to the gym or whatever you do first in the morning. By starting earlier, you can come home earlier and still enjoy the last rays of the setting sun. In winter Durban is dark by 6pm, so you have to switch lights on much earlier than say Cape Town.

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## tec0

> Working an 12 hour or 18 hour day has nothing to do with daylight saving. Daylight saving has to do with when you need to switch the lights on. In Durban it is impossible to sleep after 5am, so you may just as well start working or going to the gym or whatever you do first in the morning. By starting earlier, you can come home earlier and still enjoy the last rays of the setting sun. In winter Durban is dark by 6pm, so you have to switch lights on much earlier than say Cape Town.


i get that part but I am just saying if you are locked on a 12 hour shift. you Will wake at X time work Y time and be home at Z time. Also the power load at the factory remains the same. They run 24/7 none stop.

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## adrianh

I can think of one reason why daylight saving could have an effect on demand: If daylight saving is implemented in one county and not in another that is supplied from the same source. The demand curves for the two countries would be one hour out of step which should relieve peak demand somewhat because peak demand is now stepped by an hour across two demand points.

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## Dave S

> tec0 - you have it by the ar$e hairs of a donkey. Leap seconds are not added because the earth spins faster and faster all the time. Leap seconds are sometimes added because the rotational rate of the earth varies and because our measure of time does not fit perfectly into the rotational rate of the earth. The earth does not rotate through 360 degrees in exactly 24 hours (or 86400 seconds) the rate is every so slightly off at 86400.001798 seconds or 864.0003987 seconds or whatever. This means that they need to compensate for the error in our coarse measurement of time (seconds) by adding a second every now and again because our clocks become out of sync with the exact GMT position of the earth. A second is simply a convenient measure of time because it is very close to the rotational rate of the earth. The only reason atomic clocks were introduced is to ensure that various countries have the same measure that is considered to be one second. Do you realize that atomic clocks also drift and have to be calibrated to one another every so often. Those clocks are affected by all sorts of things like gravity, solar flares, etc.


Quite right Adrian, the earth's rotation is never constant, in fact, it's rotation speeds up and slows down and any clock, atomic or otherwise, will be out of sync with another by as much as 0.09836363636... seconds at any particular time. Scientists have found that when certain cities "spin" past (in line with) the sun, the rotation speeds up and vice versa when these cities are opposite the sun the rotation speed slows down. It's a phenomenon know as "Axis Displacement", when building materials are taken from, say, China and used to build a massive structure in, say, USA, the balance of earth's surface has been changed, this causes a "wobble" on the rotational axis and this causes the speeding-up and slowing-down in rotation. Axis Displacement can effect the time by about 0.098363636363... seconds. It isn't a proven theory though, (yet).

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## adrianh

It is also said that tides and eath quakes affect the spin rate.

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## tec0

Funny thing is I took those explanations directly out of a scientific study that was done in 2008 this time I know the info was nearest to what I could find in layman terms. So yea... if you are going to correct someone just make sure they are wrong first hey... 

That said it doesn’t really matter time is relative and until we can control time it’s not going to matter much. All I am saying is a 25 hour day will not happen in my lifetime as in “25 hours in a day” but working 18 hours or even 20 hours is a norm for most of us so really what is the big deal?

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## Dave S

> Funny thing is I took those explanations directly out of a scientific study that was done in 2008 this time I know the info was nearest to what I could find in layman terms. So yea... if you are going to correct someone just make sure they are wrong first hey...


Tec0, don't always go "on the defensive", you are quite right that science predicts the lengthening of the "hours in a day", and a 25-hour day is possible in about 10 to 30 Million years time, but this does consider that all things current remain consistent, however, we all know that consistency is not in nature's vocabulary.

In fact, planning and thinking more than 20-years ahead, may lead to some miscalculations, given our current political climate... :Wink:

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## tec0

> Tec0, don't always go "on the defensive", you are quite right that science predicts the lengthening of the "hours in a day", and a 25-hour day is possible in about 10 to 30 Million years time, but this does consider that all things current remain consistent, however, we all know that consistency is not in nature's vocabulary.
> 
> In fact, planning and thinking more than 20-years ahead, may lead to some miscalculations, given our current political climate...


Lately I had no choice, I am sure you saw the other threads and the epic disasters there. I don’t mind being corrected at all but if anything I am not being corrected rather chewed out thus I lost my cool a while ago. Adapting I started using vulgar terminology  and just became overly sensitive to any bad language accepting it as an attack outright. 

But I will reframe from going on the defensive here as I am rather hoping to avoid another epic 10 pages of being told that I am too stupid to breath.

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## HR Solutions

> Also the power load at the factory remains the same


One of the reasons for daylight saving is EXACTLY what it says - Daylight saving ! - That means you have more productive hours in a day with daylight - that means less load on the power plants.





> Lately I had no choice, I am sure you saw the other threads and the epic disasters there


Please don't even start tec.  Grow up and contribute to a conversation and LISTEN to what other people have to say as well.

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## adrianh



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## Dave S

> One of the reasons for daylight saving is EXACTLY what it says - Daylight saving ! - That means you have more productive hours in a day with daylight - that means less load on the power plants.


I'm not so sure, I hear what Tec0 is saying, I started out on the mines and they run at 24/7/365 so there would be no difference between daytime/night-time usage anyway. Also consider that in any 24-hour period the power usage would be the same as all that daylight saving is doing is moving start and end times 1-hour either way. 

Personally, I would like daylight savings, simply because I start work at 5:30 but my suppliers only start at 7:30, with savings I could still start at 5:30 and my suppliers could start at 6:30, then if I needed something I could get it an hour earlier... :Big Grin:  :Devil2:

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## Dave S

> 


Oh Adrian, I'm offended by that...

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## adrianh

I take offence to your defence of your feeling offended by my defensive argument against those who feel offended by my poster which defends the right to offend! :Devil2:

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Dave A (06-Dec-13)

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## Dave S

> I take offence to your defence of your feeling offended by my defensive argument against those who feel offended by my poster which defends the right to offend!


And on the right! The defenders of the offended, and on the left! The offenders of the defended... Sounds kinda like a political statement? :Devil2:

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## adrianh

> And on the right! The defenders of the offended, and on the left! The offenders of the defended... Sounds kinda like a political statement?


For sure!

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## IanF

This is worrying Adrian understands politics  :Confused:  and he wants to make money quickly!

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## tec0

> One of the reasons for daylight saving is EXACTLY what it says - Daylight saving ! - That means you have more productive hours in a day with daylight - that means less load on the power plants.


Consider a steel plant. Now it uses massive amounts of energy right or wrong? Now does it not stand to reason that the power that is consumed during that time will be consumed regardless of time? Partly because you need X amount of power and gasses and other stuff to melt steel because steel needs what it needs to melt. 

I am listening and YES office workers will benefit from an extra hour. But the office is not a massive power consumer. Our fabricators need POWER to fabricate and lots of it. Also consider that most of them use more power then a small city at any given time. Why because fabricators for the most part runs 24/7. 

We need two to four nuclear reactors so that we can grow... Otherwise this country cannot create new jobs or even maintain what we have now.

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## adrianh

tec0- What happens in winter when everybody get home after work and turn their heaters, kettles, geysers and stoves on simultaneously?

You need to keep minimum continuous demand vs. peak demand in mind. Daylight saving in one country that is supplied by one entity that does not supply another country makes no difference but if the supplier supplies multiple countries that have different daylight saving hours then the peak demand on the supplier will be lower but last longer.

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## tec0

> tec0- What happens in winter when everybody get home after work and turn their heaters, kettles, geysers and stoves on simultaneously?
> 
> You need to keep minimum continuous demand vs. peak demand in mind. Daylight saving in one country that is supplied by one entity that does not supply another country makes no difference but if the supplier supplies multiple countries that have different daylight saving hours then the peak demand on the supplier will be lower but last longer.


Again peak time power is a lot I get it... But it’s not the main problem. The main problem is South Africa is based on mining, fabrication and export. Example will peak time power be a problem IF we had an extra few thousand Megawatts of electricity? Will it even matter? 

You know I am right on this one. We need power not just any power Nuclear power. Why Nuclear power because coal burning is not sustainable anymore. That's the truth you can think I am a fool for thinking this but proof me wrong. All daylight savings will do is shift the peak time power that's about it. Regardless of what time you get home and turn your stuff on. You will get home and turn your stuff on.

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## Justloadit

Daylight saving to me means that I would be able to spend one more daylight hour with my family, and let me tell you I love the sun, and outdoors. As far as energy saving - there will be none, no hang on it will go up because I will be drinking cold beer out my fridge and would be replacing it with warm beer  :Smile:

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tec0 (05-Dec-13)

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## tec0

> Daylight saving to me means that I would be able to spend one more daylight hour with my family, and let me tell you I love the sun, and outdoors. As far as energy saving - there will be none, no hang on it will go up because I will be drinking cold beer out my fridge and would be replacing it with warm beer


Yea I think you just about nailed it  :Stick Out Tongue:

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## HR Solutions

Sure tec you are right ................ whatever you say.

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## tec0

> Sure tec you are right ................ whatever you say.


So according to what can you base that factories, refineries and heavy industry will benefit from this system? How will it affect their shifts? And how will it save energy? How will this system decrease their demand for energy when it comes to fabrication?   

I will admit that there are some benefit to normal office hours and office power demands and I did state it before. But not everyone is a office worker. The reality is South Africa is mainly based on heavy industry.

See HR you always want to add the last insult and I am yet to see any argument that would add any type of credibility? So can you make any contribution whatsoever other than being rude?

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## adrianh

tec0 - Can you make any contribution whatsoever other than whining!

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## tec0

> tec0 - Can you make any contribution whatsoever other than whining!


Well unfortunately your friend rendered all facilities of the forum useless as he said he will not read quotations, view videos and or links. So I made my argument as best as I could whit the rules he made. If you want more I would add more but as it is now there is no purpose. 

Tell you what we have a chat-room. I recommend use it and see if we cannot come to some sort of arrangement. or I will make a seen and will react in a most unpleasing manner when I see such condescending posts.   

I am willing to give it a go but choice is yours make it. 

I give it 1 hour... 

After that I will not bother trying to reconcile.

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## adrianh

Are you 10 years old,  do you go and fight in the park... grow up.

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## tec0

> Are you 10 years old,  do you go and fight in the park... grow up.


Who is behaving like a 10 year old? Me? Or a gang of 3 adults pi$$ing on everything I post? 

We could have worked this thing out you and I. I hoped that we could because I am so very tired of having to defend my every post and your constant condescending tone. BUT you decided not to communicate, not to try and work this out not to stop this thing here today. 

Whatever happens, happens... 

Game on  :Devil2:

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## adrianh

It is called debate, you make a spatment, somebody makes a counter statement and that is how conversations flow. We don't have to agree with anything you say and you do not have to get involved in a debate, it is what we call freedom of choice We choose to debate with you because we do not agree with a lot of your views, that is our right, yiu arenfree to challenge our views and that is your right too. I like to debate and I like to challenge ideas and I like to have my ideas challenged, that is the only way to learn. If you think for one moment that your statements are going to go unchallenged then you are mistaken, I will challenge all ideas that I disagree with, no matter whose ideas they are. 

Yu need to learn to seperate your person from your debate. You need to learn to take a stance on a subject purely for the sake of debate without having your person view as part of the stance. You should then debate that view without feeling personally offronted by the views of others. That is exactly what lawyers do, you take a stance, defend it as best you can, win or lose, learn and move on. You simply cannot go through life with your heart on your sleeve all the time.

Thenreason that we disagree with your views is just that; we disagree with your views, it is not personal, I do know you from a bar of soap, all I know 9s that a lot of your views don't make sense to me and I will say so when I feel the need to do so. You are welcome to disagree with my views and we can debate about it.

You need to accept that your viewsmare not going to go unchallenged just as the views of everybody else here doesn't go unchallenged...that is just the way of the world.

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HR Solutions (08-Dec-13)

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## HR Solutions

Just had a great laugh ............. LOL ........... again  :Smile:

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## adrianh

tec0 - think about this;

Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people.
- Eleanor Roosevelt

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## tec0

Time will tell who the real winners and losers are... So now I surrender to time and let the tables turn.

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HR Solutions (08-Dec-13)

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## tec0

> tec0 - think about this;
> 
> Great minds discuss ideas; average minds discuss events; small minds discuss people.
> - Eleanor Roosevelt


And when did I use a person's personal information here on the forum to discredit them make fun of them? There is only one person guilty of this. But I see that post got taken down. or I can't find it anymore. So be it then... some sins I suppose will be covered up others will not... But you are right it is a small mind indeed.

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## HR Solutions

Have a great eve  :Smile:

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## tec0

> Have a great eve


I wanted to add a “print screen” of the post that disappeared but I am not going to do that. See I know it happened. You know it too. And I think for your benefit it must remain just a thought. But I am done... That said considering everything that happened history will repeat itself with someone else. Of that I am sure. It might not be here, It may well be a client or something in that line. But it will happen of that I am sure. Have a good life HR Adrian and your other friend. 

Your gang won. Well it was 3 against 1 so I never had a chance.  :Wink:

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## adrianh

What are you on about?

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## Smoky

Good day everybody,  :Smile: 

In regard to daylight savings time, I personally think it would be more difficult to implement and keep track off then what it will benefit us. I found 2 YouTube clips that explains why it creates such confusion in some countries. It is very interesting how large a time gab can become across ocean. 




Even National Geographic had an interesting article on the subject;
National Geographic daylight savings time.




> In terms of energy savings, Downing said, Wolff's and other studies are no longer in much dispute: It's clear that DST doesn't save energy in the big picture.


There was also a study done;
DOES DAYLIGHT SAVING TIME SAVE ENERGY? EVIDENCE FROM A NATURAL EXPERIMENT ININDIANA




> Our main finding is that, contrary to the policys intent, DST results in an overall increase in residential electricity


A general point of view from the country that use them suggest this; 




Base on the information here I feel it isnt worth the effort. My workers will always have some degree of confusion accepting the concept and getting use to it will just result in more hours wasted.

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## adrianh

How come it works in Namibia?

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## Smoky

> How come it works in Namibia?


Good day Adrian  :Smile: 

Have you been to Namibia? I wouldnt know and taking your word for it is a leap of faith. Judging by other threads and post it is a leap I am not willing to make. I had no idea how provocative you can be. This was like stepping on the proverbial landmine. 

I can only conclude that if you want something to work then you can make something work. Like most aspect of business it is trial and error. I personally believe to get people use to the system will be a colossal task. If DST succeed more power to you. If it doesn't it doesn't. 

I will worry about it when it happens. Till then I am more then happy to keep things as they are.  :Big Grin:

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## Dave S

Maybe it's because Namibia are in between two time zones, like Cape Town, their time is about half-hour behind us in Gauteng and Durban?

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