# Social Category > South African Politics Forum >  Crime

## murdock

unfortunately...these people are sh*tting on my door step...i spoke to my other neighbour today...who i havent spoken to yet since i moved in...he told me about how they broke into his vehicle and damaged it...i got a call from a mate who lives up the road and he got hit this morning at around 3 am...now both sides of my house...across the road and 2 deaths behind my house...it time to find a solution...one of the reasons i moved here was everyone was telling me how safe it was here...i can see by all the razor wire being put up everyday that this is no longer the case.

so the time has come to put measures in place to slow them down...

we need to come up with better solutions short term...because the crime is getting worse and more violent.

any suggestions would be appreciated...cheap effective measures.

here are some of the measures i think would help...

we need to get more active parols in the area...the old...ADT...COIN etc are not effective security measures...they take too long to respond and dont cover specific areas...i believe people are wasting their money on an old system which is no longer effective enough...response time need to be 3 - 5 minutes max...if the security company cannot offer this you are wasting your time and money...it take longer than 20 minutes to get to a call out...ten years ago these response comapnies were fine...not anymore.

beams all over the garden with cctv cameras...because i believe once they get into your house it is already too late...

an addtional fence to keep the dogs away from the boundry fence because i see there is a notice again at the shop warning people about them poisening the animals in our area again...then beams will go between the boundry fence and the inner fence...it is a pity you dont get a laser which cuts if anyone enters that part of the property...piano wire pulled tight in that area randomy spaced...so if they get past the beams and the dogs chase them best they dont forget to duck for the wire.

the family need to go for fire arm and self defence training...the kids need to be familerised with the firearms on how to use them and the dangers so that they can be left in key places if required at any time of day or night...not locked in a safe.

there are planty more things but i dont have time right now...i will continue...

unfortunatley for some of us living in SA this is a reality and until we wake up and smell the roses will become a reality for more and more people as the poverty gets worse...the crimminals get wiser and more braizen.

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rad (28-Sep-10)

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## BusFact

You seem to already have a good idea what to do. Just a word of warning. If those firearms get stolen or go missing and they were not in an approved or on the person of the licence holder, you'll have major legal problems.

Some suggestions working from your house out:

The house:
- Have a traditional house alarm with armed response. They still serve an important purpose.
- Make sure possible entrances have solid security in the form of security gates and burglar bars.
- Try and separate the sleeping area from the rest of the house with another security gate.

Now for the garden:
- To avoid dogs being poisoned, either let them sleep inside and act as a warning mechanism or as per your suggestion in an internally fenced off area away from the perimeter.
- Install beams and sensors which I would actually not link to the response company. Rather get them to set off an internal alarm to just warn you, such as a buzzer. They still create too many false alarms and the associated drama of response officers arriving every time its triggered, can get painful and irritating. Simply use them to alert you of possible problems.
- Sensor lights that go on when sensing movement can be a minor deterrant too.

Perimeter:
- Make the wall uncomfortable to climb, eg spikes.
- Electric fencing is also a deterrant, but has its flaws. Use it if you can.
- Palisade fencing instead of a wall. Its more difficult to climb and exposes the criminals to being seen from the road by passeres by whilst committing the crime. Of course it also makes it a bit easier to see what they could target - but not much.

Further out:
- Make sure you know all your neighbours. 3 or 4 properties down in each direction, behind you, across the road etc. Have their cell numbers and look out for each other.
- Get to know who should be in your road: residents, boyfriends of residents, domestic workers, tennants, etc. If you see anybody else, notify police or security company to check out.
- Limit the number of domestic workers. They can (sometimes unwittingly) give out information on what is available to steal, who lives there and how to get in.
- Club together with local residents to employ a proactive security company that patrols your streets looking for trouble makers, before they attack. By monitoring unknown pedestrians, loiterers and suspicious cars, you make it difficult for them to plan an attack.
- Get involved with your local SAPS or CPF. It keeps you informed on crime trends in your area and makes you much more aware of possible trouble and what to look out for.
- Use one of the local cell phone type emergency buttons which allows you to notify your neighbours when something happens. This is useful when you have suspicious persons in your street. The button can be triggered and others can come out into the road. The extra eyes, will make crooks move off elsewhere. Also useful during an incident as your neighbours may be able to help much quicker than security or police.

Just some thoughts.

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## murdock

> You seem to already have a good idea what to do. Just a word of warning. If those firearms get stolen or go missing and they were not in an approved or on the person of the licence holder, you'll have major legal problems.  this i will worry about if it happens 
> 
> Some suggestions working from your house out:
> 
> The house:
> - Have a traditional house alarm with armed response. They still serve an important purpose....done
> - Make sure possible entrances have solid security in the form of security gates and burglar bars...done
> - Try and separate the sleeping area from the rest of the house with another security gate.done 
> 
> ...


thanks 

i am sure this will help others who find themselves in this situation as they move into other areas.

one other thing i am considering is have tear gas linked to a panic buttons...all over the house...on my head board of my bed...etc...so if we are over powered or they get into the house...i would rather we are all gassed and they leave my family to get away...can worry about the gas and after effect when everything settles down...it is just so sad that we have to live like this and all that so called properganda they warned us about during national service has become a reality unfortunetly...it is a pity we cant put anti personel and claymore mines in the garden...anyone know where i can source a hand full of these...as a last line of defense just outside my doors and windows

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## Butch Hannan

This is a subject that really raises my blood pressure. I lay all these problems at the foot of our government. It is their fault as they do not uphold the constitution which is supposed to protect our rights. Maybe we need to get some clever MP to promulgate legislation for re-imbursing us private citizens for expenses involved in installing security systems to keep us safe.

President Zuma made an appeal during the world cup for the criminals to behave themselves during this period. Crime was definitely a lot less but has unfortunately increased quite dramatically again. This leads me to ask the question as to who controls the criminals in this country- Zuma??? :Confused: 

Maybe we should all submit an application to Beke Cele for AK47,s and hand grenades to protect ourselves. If enough people apply he might just take notice.

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## desA

Can you folks continue to live in fear like this?   :EEK!:   :EEK!:   :EEK!:

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## murdock

> Maybe we should all submit an application to Beke Cele for AK47,s and hand grenades to protect ourselves. If enough people apply he might just take notice.


i think this is the direction this country is heading 

we found the only thing that worked up on the border was a strap...a big stick and a steel table...50 lashes like this we never had any problems with that indivudual for a long time...

when we where kids and miss behaved we were taken to the polic station and whipped 6 of the best...we were still naughty but the thought of gettting lashed stuck in the back of your mind...i got use to it because even at school i got caned every day because i didint believe in doing homework...so it was literally 2 for each subject....sometimes i got lucky and never got caught so would only get 4 or 6 for the day.

and not fogetting my mother she would beat the living daylights out of me for anything from not listening to not eating all my food...coming home late...sneaking out at night to get up to mischief...now look at me...such a well behaved person  :Big Grin:

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## tec0

It is sad to say it, but censorship is becoming self-imposed. We do not speak out against our criminal-police officers that are clearly shown on television. We do not act when action is required. Our Aria used to have good patrolling systems. Our neighbourhood watch was really working. But then two mines closed down half of the people here lost their jobs almost overnight.  

Honestly this country isnât worth it anymore. We die by the thousands and our police give out documents with old guesstimates thinking we the public are too stupid figure it out. If you have the money get out! Start over... 

I have considered bricking up the windows and make them so small that a human would not be able to get through the space. Get a crossbow; it will shoot right through a person and impalement works. Also bricks is less expensive then steel bars so it is cheap. 

Secondly reinforce your doors as much as possible also consider a security door both in front and behind your normal door that will slow them down. Also remember that a criminal has more rights than you do... âSo do it by the bookâ  :Wink: 

I modified these lights you get with the movement sensor, and fitted a 220v relay where the lights normally are fitted, from that point you can connect anything to it. âUse your imaginationâ it can activate almost anything.   :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## orpaspar

It's a terrible situation that has to be solved from the top down. Unfortunately applying first world legal solutions to South Africa's unique problems, as has been done until now, will not work. However, with the stupendous level of corruption that exists it would be naive to think that crime could be tackled effectively on its own. The shortage of jobs also doesn't help. When the government, local, provincial and state, realise that they are public servants and are privileged to be serving all South African citizens, and they start doing a good job because it is what is what they should be doing, not because it is the get-rich-quick scheme that it is now, perhaps things will improve. Although, to be honest, I don't think we will ever get to that. The corruption is now ingrained and the cancer of crime is now endemic.

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## murdock

its not everyone elses problem it is our problem...you cant blame the corupt police you cant blame the  corupt goverment officials ...you can only blame yourself...the police are not going to solve of crime problem in this country...we have to do it ourselves and until we stand up and start doing something about it nothing will change...i know of one community which had high crime stats...they took action themselves...set up night patrols and cleaned up the area...crime rate down by a huge percentage...i tried to join the group but they dont cover my area.

we have police community meetings and nobody arrives for the meetings...we have breakins and nobody helps...i stand the like a fool in the road on my own...and the joke is i am not the one who has been broken into...as my wife mentioned the other day...if they dont want to get involved why are you endangering your life and everyone else stands looking from behind the curtain...so i have have stopped helping...i have taken precautions for myself and just hope i dont get nailed...the other problem is none of my neighbours have taken precaution...so i am exposed from all sides.

the only way we can sort out our problems is to sort them out ourselves...until people realise this nothing will change...what is very imortant is you need to make the sure the crimminals dont come back...it is too easy for these crimminals thats why they are targeting us and our families.

we need to scap these reaction units and start putting our money into more effective reaction units...these coin...adt...blue have just become money making rackets like everything else...and the more crime spreads the more money they make and until people wake up and realise thie they will just keep taking your money.

tell me of one security company which actually gets involved in the community meetings and takes reactive measures to curb the crime...all you see is a presence of vehicle in an area when they need more bussiness the crime goes up and more bussiness for them then you see the same vehicle covers huge areas...with a 20 minute reaction time pathetic it should be 3 -5 minutes other wise get rid of them...it means they either donthave enough vehicles or the area is too bit which they cover...less vehicles and staff more profits....come on people wake up...its our problem and we need to fix it...why wait till your wife mother or daughter is raped...all women should join the fight against rape...not only once they are raped then suddenly want to start a rape crisis centre and expect everyone suddenly to help...do it now before you become a stat...i believe once it has happened it is tooooo late...prevention is better than cure.

we had a similar situation where a person in our area started a small security /patroling company....he offered vip for whan you arrived home you could call him if you were gona be home late and he would wait at you gate to make sure access was clear...for about 2 years you would see the patrol vehicle 4...5.sometimes 10 times inthe day or night...crime went down...his customer base grew....now you lucky if you see him every 3 months or so and guess what the crime has risen...i for one cancealled my subscription...waste of money until i see him more active he wont get my suport.

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## Dave S

I don't believe that crime stats are fully reported as the incidence of crime seems to be much worse than we are being told. We need to keep each other informed. Perhaps Dave A can put a new category on the ForumSA for us members to report crimes as they happen? this way we will be helping each other to form a stats list and help identify "hot spots".

As SA sinks further into the poverty pit, criminals have nothing to lose so crime begins to pay, IE. _If i'm starving to death anyway, why not just commit a crime and get into jail where I will have free board and lodgings with meals, it's a very poor living standard, but it is a living, and the worse the crime, the longer I get to "enjoy" the free life, it's still a death sentence but takes a little longer_. 

Criminals don't fear the law anymore, the punishment for the crime is but a small price to pay. :EEK!:

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## tec0

The truth is, what it is... I am not picking up the bill because everybody wants to say âit is my faultâ. When you report criminals to the police nothing gets done. But the police will act against YOU and ME if we take action. Fact is we are easy to find and even more easy to intimidate as seen on Television. The police are extremely aggressive towards the public.  

Patrolling your aria sounds good but honestly here is the real world scenario for you. The criminals break into a home. You are radioed and you show up to help. The thing is they the criminals are armed with fully automated weaponry and they WILL kill you. You have to act lawfully therefore you are armed with none lethal children's toys.

The police are basically feeding us to the criminals and they know it. They know you have no actual chance to survive when someone fires an AK47 your way. Yet they are too happy to send you in first. Fortify your home, get those CCTV camera going knowing the criminalâs action is half the battle.

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robinsonwang (29-Sep-10)

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## murdock

i dont agree that people are breaking into your house because they are starving thats absolute cr*p...they are doing it because they want to live western lifestyles and the easy way to do it like prostitution and drug dealing its a get rich quick way...and a bonus is you get to rape a women or 2 to make you a man in front of your mates or just as a f&*5k you white man take that because i can...when you hear what they do to some of the women you will understand why i make this statement...not just to be racist.

there is no need to murder or rape women because you are starving.

i also dont agree that by standing around waiting for someoneone else to solve your crime problem is going to solve anything.

note...some people send millions of signed emails and petitions to the goverment...what get done about it abslutley nothing.

a small group decide to tackle their crime problem in the area by physically doing something about it setting up nght patrols...sms...and email crime is reduced by 70 %...what happens the crimminlas move to a different area...thats all that changes...thats why i still believe the you need to prevent them from moving to new locations.

things are getting so bad that when you have a party at your house you need to hire a trained team of security personel to protect you and your friends from being robbed at gun point...maybe it time to start looking at doing this...instead of starting a new security company like coin...blue...adt etc...rather get a team together which cleans up areas...at a nominal  fee...threat the crimminal the way they want to treat others and make them scared...like i said before bounty hunting...put a price on their heads...it is the only way we will make these people think before they decide to break into bussiness or house...you have to make them think first.

some good news this morning 2 crimminals resisted arrest both shot dead after trying to rob a church...the new easy target...churches...i think this is gona get people to react...the more they nail the churches the harder people are going to fight back.

the crimminals who robbed the church memebrs while praying a couple months ago...all resisted arrest...i dont think any of them made it to court...now thats what i like to hear. 

the police are proving to be more and more corrupt by the day with stories of police involment in crimes like rape...just a week ago head lines in the paper...crimminals escaping from prison..etc...so you cant rely on them to protect you...and if you can get them to respond in 3 days good for you...this cele and the other fella who is always on tv talking about how he will be improving safety and security is just a bluff...they are just enjoying the lime light..note the fancy dress whenever on tv...unfortunalty action speaks louder than words...they are just seem to be full of hot air...you hear of 5 million rand police station but you dont hear how safe this country is to live in...when we move into the top 100 safe places to live than i will believe anything they say.

i still cannot for the life of me understand why people have 5 diffrent response companies in 1 road...idiots...you need to get one company to get involved to protect your area or go private...there are plenty good ex police sap officers out there...you need to have community meetings which include the response company which you use and if they dont do their job get another company...if you have 5 cars doing th same thing on the same network chances are you weill improve your security...but having 5 different vehicles from 5 different companies on 5 different networks in one area...just doesnt add up.

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robinsonwang (29-Sep-10)

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## murdock

disappointed to hear on the news this morning that they only killed 2 arrested one...and one escaped...lets hope they dont make it to court...waste our tax money...one bullet only cost a rand or 2 a crimminal in jail cost millions...the money could be better spent increasing the teachers and nurses wages.

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robinsonwang (29-Sep-10)

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## tec0

Well firstly all women suffer, especially the young girls in townships. Rape and murder is common place but again the townships resist the police when the police try to react to these violent crimes. But again it is really difficult to trust the police because of what you see in the Media. 

Yes, hate crimes and torture is common place and the children normally gets it the worst so that that statement can be made. I can only say that things will not get better. It is almost impossible for change to take place. Criminals walking out of prisons are just another indication that the systems are collapsing. 

The problem is that the criminal has more human rights then us. They have the right to rape and murder. Intimidate and act without any form of restraint. Our laws are structured to protect them against the public. If we take the law in our own hands we get dragged off to prison to be raped and abused by the criminals that was imprisoned. 

In a word the situation is and will be hopeless. I sometimes feel and belief that God is dead, because of all the pain in this world. So hope died with that thought. I will survive as long as I can but sooner or later I will become a statistic.    

The truth is all of us will eventually become a statistic   :Frown:

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robinsonwang (29-Sep-10)

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## Butch Hannan

> Can you folks continue to live in fear like this?


Yes we do continue living in fear especially when you have been a victim of crime. I am attaching a piece written by my daughter Sally about the ordeal that happened to us a couple of years ago.


> This is our story:
> 
> Shortly before 5:00am on the morning of 20th Dec we packed our belongings and prepared to leave for our vacation to the sea. My mom and dad, my husband, Bertie, and my two children, Christopher(12) and Rebecca(9) and I were all so excited. We had saved all year for our holiday and had spent all year paying off our holiday home. We were going on holiday to Shelly Beach on the South Coast of Kwazulu Natal. I am told that this beautiful strip of coastline is known as the Hibiscus Coast and draws many tourists every year.
> Shortly after 2:00am we arrived at our holiday home. It was a really spectacular place set in a beautiful garden and approximately 500m from the beach. The property had a high wall, electronic gate, security gates and burglar proofing. We felt safe and were in awe of the beauty we were surrounded by.
> After a short swim on St. Michaelâs beach, we returned to our holiday home to have dinner and have an early night as we were all tired from the long trip.
> Shortly after 9:00pm we all turned in for the night. Fortunately, I had decided to put mattresses for my children in our room to sleep on. The four of us had chosen the main bedroom on one end of the house and my parents had chosen a guest room on the opposite end of the house. I had taken my small miniature Daubermann dog, Felix, along and he lay sleeping between my husband and me. At around midnight I awoke and heard what I thought was a scratching sound. I woke Bertie and he went to take a look and to check that all the doors were locked properly. He found nothing out of place and returned to bed. We knew the neighbours had big dogs and we assumed that the noise had come from them. Bertie got up another three times after this as we just couldnât ignore the noises. He checked the doors and windows and again found nothing wrong. On one occasion when Bertie went to check, the dogs next door were barking terribly and Bertie let our little dog out to have a run about as well. It must have been close to 1:00am when we finally dozed off again.
> Shortly after 1:00am I woke up as I heard muffled voices. I opened my eyes and realized that my worst fear and most dreaded nightmare had just become a reality. Standing at the foot of our double bed were three men with balaclavas over their faces. Two of them were armed with revolvers and the third man had a very large knife. I cannot describe the fear that surged through me; I felt my throat close and my tongue felt like a piece of lead. Standing beside my beautiful children and my beloved husband stood three potential killers. As I lifted my head, they showed me to be silent; I was too shocked and afraid to utter a word anyway. I sat up, shaking profusely and thinking surely this isnât happening, I must be dreaming. Pointing to my husband, Bertie, one of the men with a gun walked round to his side and held a gun to his head. The other man told me, âWake him, wake the big one!â I managed to whisper Bertiesâ name twice and he opened his eyes staring directly into the barrel of a gun. Bertie let out a cry of shock and fear and again the men insisted that we remain silent or they would kill us. The leader of the gang ordered the other two men out of the room in Zulu. I recognized the language as I bought a CD from which I was trying to learn Zulu and so some of the words were familiar to me. The leader kept his gun on us and the other two men disappeared down the long passage. I knew they had been sent to my parentâs room and we felt so helpless as we couldnât warn them of what was coming. 
> I saw Christopher stirring and the man stepped forward and held the revolver to my sonâs chest. I begged him not to harm my children and told Christopher that there were men with guns in our house. The man told me to shut up. Chris sat up slowly with his hands above his head. At this moment we heard shouts of terror and cries for help from my mom and dad. Apparently, my dad had awoken as the two men entered their room. One of the men charged down on my dad and stabbed at him. In shock, my dad shouted, roared and kicked to get the man off him. Then as he looked beside him, the other man had shaken my mom awake and had the gun against her head. My mom pleaded and begged that they wouldnât hurt them and continually requested that they put their guns away and that they would do whatever was asked of them. Bertie began begging and pleading that they would not harm my parents. Bertie offered them anything they wanted in exchange for my parentâs lives. Very agitated, the man kicked the bedroom door closed so we couldnât hear my parents cries and ordered Bertie, âShut up! Shut up!â and he waved the gun in his face. Then through the door my momâs cries rang clear, a sound I have no words to describe to anyone. I went ice cold and froze in fear. Chris showed the man that he wasnât armed, leaned forward and pointed at my MP3 player on the dressing table: â Please sir,â he said, âtake this MP3 player, it is worth a lot of money and please donât hurt my granny and grandpaâ¦..they are old.â The man reached down and took the MP3 player. He shouted something in his language to the other two men. The man that was guarding us was obviously shouting orders to the other two to bring my parents to us. As my parents were taken from the room, my mom began to pray loudly and my dad joined in. This angered the robbers and they shouted that my mom must stop doing that. One of the men promised my mom that he would not shoot her if she remained quiet. This gave my mom the courage to ask him to put his weapon in his pocket. All through this ordeal, my mom reminded this man of his promise and asked him to put his gun away. This brought little bits of relief as he listened to her occasionally. My parents were marched into our room and made to sit on the bed with us. I thought that this was it; they were going to kill us all here. They walked back and forth across Rebecca who was still lying sleeping. One of the men was highly agitated and moved the point of his gun from one person to the other. He seemed itchy to use it and was delighting in our fear. He was about to tip Rebeccaâs mattress when Bertie asked the leader of this band of criminals if we could just wake our daughter and call her to us on the bed. If we were going to die, we would then all be together. The leader agreed and holding the gun to Bertieâs head allowed him to call Rebecca to us. Rebecca got up quietly and calmly and joined us on the bed. We were all made to sit with our heads down as the robbers had moved their balaclavas up onto their heads and their faces were now visible. I was sure this was the end as I knew that they would definitely not leave witnesses behind. My dad, Bertie and Chris were now sitting in front of my mom, Rebecca and me. Rebecca was shaking so badly that the whole bed shook, but she remained silent and didnât utter a word. Then began the robberâs grueling search for valuables. âWhere is your cellphones? Where is your money? Where are your clothes? Where are your shoes? Where is your handbag? Where are your guns?â The questions rained down on us, as well as threats to kill us if we didnât give them what theyâd come for. They scratched through everything, filling our suitcases with their loot. They made sure that one armed man stayed with us at all times. During one of their searches, they opened the wardrobe in our room and found a long, tall gun safe. Bertie and my dad explained over and over that this did not belong to us and that we were just visitors on holiday. They continued to ask for the key, pointing their guns at my dad and Bertie. They attempted to force the safe open, shaking and kicking it. One man wore gloves, but the other used Bertieâs socks as gloves. They went through a door into the garage just behind our room, took power tools, came back and then locked the door tossing the key away. Bertie and my dad and mom continued to ask that they do not harm us and that we wouldnât do anything. At first they wanted to lock us in the garage, but they had themselves tossed the key away. Then, they wanted to lock us all in the room, but couldnât get the key to work. In walked the leader to my dad and arrogantly requested, âPlease sir, may I borrow your car.ââ My dad explained how his central locking worked and handed over the bunch of keys. This man also asked my father how the electronic gate worked and my dad explained it all to him. They pulled the door closed behind them and we heard a muffled discussion going on. I heard them cock a pistol and thought that one of them would be sent back to finish us off. We heard footsteps go down the passageway and we all sat in silence with our heads bowed. We waited to hear if my dadâs car would be started up. We sat for a long time, too afraid to look up or make a move in case they had not yet left. After a long time, Bertie carefully got up, tiptoed to the window to see if my dadâs car had left. But, it was still there, so we sat quietly again and decided in whispers that we would wait like that till daylight. After what seemed like an eternity, I could take it no more and asked my dad to turn off the ceiling fan with the long switch that was dangling above his head, so that we could hear better. My dad put the fan off and as we listened there was deadly silence. We waited a little while longer, then decided that we would all go together to check if they were gone. In a pathetic, shaking group, we all went in silence to the front part of the house. Relief washed over us as we realized that we had been left alive and that they had left. We decided to go and look for help. The house was built on a slope and we had to trudge uphill, my mom barely able to walk from what we had been through. We were all in our pajamas without shoes as the men had taken everything. Bertie and my dad didnât even have shirts. The first few houses we couldnât attract anyoneâs attention as their security was so good, but, finally we found help at a house on the corner of the street. The people were friendly, hurried us inside and phoned the police. Within minutes the local police arrived and my dad and Bertie went down to the house. Coffee was made for my mom, me and the two kids by the lady who had helped us and we were given a lift back home. The house had been left in absolute chaos. The robbers had eaten things, drank cold drink and had destroyed whatever they couldnât take. The Shelly beach police from all kinds of departments had rushed to our aid and were combing the crime scene. We had been held hostage and threatened from approximately 1:00am to 4:00am and had then sat, too frightened to move from 4:00am to 5:15am. The police then did their job for several hours. We decided that we would leave for home as soon as the police were finished with us as we were too afraid to sleep for another night in the house. The owner of the house and women I had rented the property through also came to our aid immediately when we called her. The police discovered that the robbers had gained access through a small bathroom window that had no burglar proofing. They were all barefoot and this is why we couldnât hear them walk. 
> I have officially decided that my kids are the most coolest bravest kids there are! Both Chris and Rebecca remained calm during this terrible experience and did exactly as they were told. Sadly, this also shows that S.A kids are so conditioned to accepting violent crime. We are all okay now, but I think we will all need help in dealing with this trauma. I am heartbroken, I feel that these people have taken something from me that can never be given back and this is my mere trust and respect for fellow South Africans. The robbers tore open my kids Christmas gifts and made my 65yr old parents beg for their lives. Some of our clothing was recovered and we trust that the police will soon apprehend these criminals.
> ...


My family are still traumatized in spite of us all having received professional help. Suggest you read my poem on my website titled "South Africa We Are Free"
 I am a father of three children. grandfather of five children and great grandfather of two children and each and everyone of my family have been the victims of "Violent Crime" . In some cases more than once. I obviously do not believe the crime statistics that are given out by the police.

Yes we continue living in fear.
Butch Hannan

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robinsonwang (29-Sep-10)

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## murdock

and the sad thing is we all have stories like this to tell...you just never hear about them in the newspaper or media...only via emails or when people load them on forums...or listening to people at social gatherings...i would be here till tommorow morning writting facts likes this.

the reality is we live in the most violent country outside of war torn countries...my sister and her family who have moved to england find it rather amuzing that whenever she asks why i dont leave this country....i always say..."at least its not as bad as irak" the problem with this statement is the amount of deaths and injury from violence and bombing is still less than the crime in this country :EEK!:  i am not talking about the stats sent out by goverment i am talking about the realty and cases we dont even hear about.

cheer up we live in the rainbow nation...take it like and man but then dish it out like a man toooo if you get the upper hand...or pray and forgive them.

beams in the garden AND on the walls of the house so they cant get to the hosue and climb thru a small window...if you have big or small dogs keep them inside the house...and when asked by the judge or procecutor ...YOURS AND YOUR FAMILIES LIVES WERE IN DANGER AND THEY POSED A CLEAR AND PRESENT DANGER...not maybe this or maybe that...and never shout out violent threats....always shout please stop...please stop and try not shoot more than 2 shots otherwise it is seems and extreme force.

common stories which come out of court.

we were lost and had to break into the house to ask for directions.

i was far away from home and wasnt sure were i was and got frightened so i broke into the house.

i was thirsty and needed water so i broke into the house...i didnt see the tap below the window which i stood on to climb into the window... :Headbutt: 

etc etc

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robinsonwang (29-Sep-10)

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## tec0

The sad part is not the excuses itâs the judge believing them...  :Frown: 

And what is the excuse for the AK47? He used it as a cane? And was the bullets to add to the stability?  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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robinsonwang (29-Sep-10)

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## murdock

these people are getting a lot smarter than you think...they dont always carry firearms...the other night a fella was caught breaking into cars...they wear the bare essentials...i mean the fella only had a pair of sleeper short on...a sharpened allen key and a shaft with a weight on it which slides up and down to break the lock...i can only asume that the get away vehicle had armed criminals...when he was caught he dropped the tools of his trade and denied any knowledge of them.

my neighbour was hijacked at home...no firearms were produced only indicated that they had guns and would kill if they didnt do what they told them....it went off so smoothly that he only started going into shock an hour or two after the whole ordeal...they spoke fluent english...well mannered well dressed...all in good health well built...arrived in a bmw...starving i think not...more like highly skilled soldiers/crimminals with past experience in terrorism 

i will say this again i believe the police force are not equipped nor do they have the correct skills to handle these type of crimminals/terroists.

look at the cash in transit heists...armed robberies all planned and carried out in a manner which indicates they are trained personel...who knows who is training these people...these are the questions we should be asking...and why are they hardly ever caught

and why when polic eofficers who shoot them get put on suspension...

starts making you think...time to... :Shutup2:

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robinsonwang (29-Sep-10)

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## desA

Time to begin a security RE network, methinks. Begin actively looking after you & your own.

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robinsonwang (08-Oct-10)

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## murdock

what i am hearing is people are hiring armed guards to protect them and their visitors during functions...this sounds like a bussiness to go into...get a couple of ex cops to work like bouncers but just heavily armed...to be capablae of tackling 6 - 8 armed robbers...its after hours so it could be a side line job for active cops...at least they could call their buddys if the kak hits the fan.

it is amazing how often this kind of thing is happening and how little it is reported in the media...maybe they are just stories  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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robinsonwang (08-Oct-10)

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## alexwang

> I don't believe that crime stats are fully reported as the incidence of crime seems to be much worse than we are being told. We need to keep each other informed. Perhaps Dave A can put a new category on the ForumSA for us members to report crimes as they happen? this way we will be helping each other to form a stats list and help identify "hot spots".
> 
> As SA sinks further into the poverty pit, criminals have nothing to lose so crime begins to pay, IE. _If i'm starving to death anyway, why not just commit a crime and get into jail where I will have free board and lodgings with meals, it's a very poor living standard, but it is a living, and the worse the crime, the longer I get to "enjoy" the free life, it's still a death sentence but takes a little longer_. 
> 
> Criminals don't fear the law anymore, the punishment for the crime is but a small price to pay.



wat Dave S talked about is needed.
The earlier we notice what happened, the earlier we can take precautions. It's better for people to know th current condition in south africa, witch  will be good for travelling and business guiding in SA.

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robinsonwang (29-Sep-10)

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## garthu

Criminals have actually adapted to the system with open arms. This is for real concern.

If anyone watched the episode of 'solving it" on tv, the local jails are run by gangs etc. Sure this is not new or news, but its the manner. In jail the gangs are controlled by the criminals activities. A petty thief is in a certain gang and a killer in another gang.

When a prisoner is released, this is the only time they can actually climb the ladder of gangs..out of prison!! In other words, some of the completely senseless murders seen, whilst some might be paid hits, some are actually just all about gang status! One of there "upgrade" status crimes is to knife a policeman!! WILD STUFF!!

Whether the criminal is out of jail or in jail, he is looked after by the gangs! He is just as happy in jail as out. In fact in jail is like a social if you are in the "27's" gang. You get fed, place to sleep etc. Hearing how prison is no walk in the park (sure its not) but if you are in one of the gangs, it's certainly not the worst thing that can happen either.

It leaves us with the problem that the really rough guys in our community dont care at all whether they are in or out... how do we control them!

I also heard an intersting rumour some time ago (who knows but its an interesting concept) that 2 members of the 27's gang were integral in the firearms gun free sa story... what its done to there lives etc etc... except once a 27, always a 27 or else!!!

Sorry guys, but a firm believer that the only thing that will reduce something like the 27's operations and train of thought is death penalty. Something has to be done for sure from a political side. Us joining together, yes its proactive and helps, but something BIG has to come from the top

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## tec0

When I see the word death-penalty I get worried. Clearly the criminal system is mess and cleaning it up with killing all the âmonstersâ and then try to rehabilitate the rest will take some time. However the incompetence of our police force as sown in the Media, it is clear that the death-penalty will be abused. It will give the âbadâ officers a free licence to kill and intimidate anyone. Take for example that poor women that didnât do anything wrong and was then taken by aggressive police officers. 

The solution is a new police force. Well trained officers will be the foundation to establish a much needed trust between the public and the police. Now if we use all those stolen billions and spend it on our police force and make it powerful, educated and disciplined and then introduce proper systems to deal with the monsters and criminals alike you will win. Do it any other way and you will lose.

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## Dave A

Are the police badly trained or is it really a morale / motivation problem?

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## tec0

A bit of both I suspect. The truth is discipline can affect a person positively. Discipline bestows pride and self-respect. With self-respect you respect others and expect them to respect you. The second aspect is income. Face it we all need a roof over our heads, proper medical-aid and a good retirement fund. So I think that yes good police-officers deserve a good income. 

As for motivation again discipline will motivate that is a given fact, a good income will motivate but above all good training and education will motivate because it ads to âself worthâ and is really important in this line of work.

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## AndyD

I think part of the problem with police is that people who make the best police officers have character and personality traits which would also make them the best criminals if they chose to go that route.
What would make such a person chose law enforcement over law breaking? The great police salaries.....the high social and public regard the police are held in?

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## murdock

and here i thought i was just letting off a load of hot air thougt it was just me noticing all the barb wire fencing going up daily...newspaper headlines...

crime up 3600 % 

the commander says he cannot protect the people because he doesnt have the vehicles or man power...maybe he should ask so ofht ehother public servants to stop spending so much on personel luxery vehicles...and someone mentioned it should come from goverment...wake up...maybe i live in a different country...i take it you also live in one of the crime free places in SA.


it looks like things are starting to gettin interesting here...crimminals are now targeting parents dropping off children at pre school and school...why because they are easy targets and more importantly they will not do anything stupid while their little precious ones are in the vehicle...

churches also become targets...and now you must go to church armed to the Tee as well another easy target...

police confront armed men...but armed men are no longer worried about police so they just shoot back at the police  :Big Grin: ...i wonder if the police officer will be put on suspension for shooting two men dead in the line of duty...and the dog for biting one of the crimminals...maybe he will be put down  :Big Grin:   it is a laugh a minute reading the news...

so now that all the crimminlas know that the police have no vehicle published headlines in the newspaper lets see if it increase by another 3000%  :Big Grin: 

you have to make the crimminal think before he hijacks or breaks into a house or decides to pull and armed robbery at a function...and the only way to stop it will be to fight fire with fire and until we adopt that attitude lets hope you are your family doesnt become just another stat...

these steps need to be taken urgently...

comunication with other members of your community is the key to reducing the crime rate in your area...

a ruthless specialised trained team with adequate fire power to hunt these crimminals down...with a worthwile bounty on their heads...funded by the entire community...stop wasting money on electric fences...adt...blue...coin...etc and crap...rather prevent the crimminals from targeting your area...get rid of them before they become a threat.

sms  and email communications on a daily bassis with constant updates as events happen so you know if your neighbour or a house just up the road has been hit...descriptions of the vehicles to look out for.

contact details of who the correct people to contact if you are a victum...and which security personel to contact when you are hit...because having the police station number isnt gona do much for you...as mentioned in the headlines.

arm yourself so that you dont have to hide your children and beg for your life while these people smash your front door open or come thru the windows this is beecoming a very common entrance  just smash right thru the front door or windo...and more important go for training educate your family on how to use weapons...dont keep it safe from the children...rather educate them on the dangers and let them use the weapons so they become familiar with them and know how to use it...and what ever you do dont leave it locked in a safe...when they come thru the door or window there is no time to still find the key unlock the safe and load the weapon...make it fit into your headboard so that if your wife is being raped on your bed she can reach for it...clip it under the shelf below the safe so you can reach for it when they take you to your safe...and what ever you do make sure it is loaded...rather lock the cupboard than have a gun locked in the safe...

keep other weapons in the house positioned in strategic locations which all your family members know about and keep a couple seperate...so if like they did to my mate made his son show them all the safes etc they dont located all your weapons...slide a blade into the shelf of the cupboard and make it spring loaded so if you push on it it pops out make it with a tees so you can hold it properly...and make sure it doesnt have any rigdes on it otherwise it you will have to turn it to pull it out...rather make it straight and extremely sharp...use a buff to finish it so you can shave with it.

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## murdock

by the way the last couple days i have noticed adt have 3 brand new vehicles patrolling our area...and the crime is increasing...doesnt that make you think.

you would think the crime would be on a decrease :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## murdock

there are other things but i cant display them on a public forums...things like your drinks cabnet....these people love to drink and feast while making a fool of you...just make sure you dont have a couple too many and forget.

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