# General Business Category > General Business Forum >  Contractor hourly rate

## ians

I have a customer indicating that my hourly rates are tooo high compared to other provinces

I have been charge R 525.00 including callout fee for breakdowns and no travelling. (KZN)

Industrial factories i charge a call out fee R 750.00 including the first half hour because i have to normally spend 2 hrs  cleaning my equipment after working in some of these filthy factories.

I take my car for a service and they charge me R 600.00 for an unskilled person to drain the oil out my car. Then they have a standard fee of 7 hours to replace a cam belt looking thing taking my bill to over R 15000.00 including spares for a 150 000 service  :Frown: 

Customer complaining to pay me R 525.00 as qualified electrician with over 30 year hands on experience. Time to employ unskilled staff and dump them on site and let them take 5 hours to do a job which would take me 1 hour because of my experience and send a bill for 5 hours at R 300.00 at a total of R 1500.00 rather than 1 hour at R 525.00.

Do you know why we have this problem because of all you electrical contractors out there screwing up the industry.

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Sparks (07-Mar-21)

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## Brett Nortje

> I have a customer indicating that my hourly rates are tooo high compared to other provinces
> 
> I have been charge R 525.00 including callout fee for breakdowns and no travelling. (KZN)
> 
> Industrial factories i charge a call out fee R 750.00 including the first half hour because i have to normally spend 2 hrs  cleaning my equipment after working in some of these filthy factories.
> 
> I take my car for a service and they charge me R 600.00 for an unskilled person to drain the oil out my car. Then they have a standard fee of 7 hours to replace a cam belt looking thing taking my bill to over R 15000.00 including spares for a 150 000 service 
> 
> Customer complaining to pay me R 525.00 as qualified electrician with over 30 year hands on experience. Time to employ unskilled staff and dump them on site and let them take 5 hours to do a job which would take me 1 hour because of my experience and send a bill for 5 hours at R 300.00 at a total of R 1500.00 rather than 1 hour at R 525.00.
> ...


No offense, but you could employ some 'technikon' students to do it for much cheaper and they get a reference. if you really want to get it done better, you need to look at what you have that other's don't. a little more of an offense would be to point out that in South Africa people are very lazy. it comes from our racial diversity, where we do not trust each other for some reason.

So, you need to price yourself better. if you were to make it 'quicker' - your service that is - then you could try to do it in less time, and, those are manufacturing hours. the problem is it doesn't mater how long it takes as the demand for productivity in south africa is so low due to the recession and lack of funding for customers. this mes they are doing nothing, fixing the thing doing nothing, then complaining about lost hours, yes?

Now, if you were to clean your equipment faster, for a start, you could try to use one barrel of acid or some sort of fast cleaning agent. then you could use it multiple times, scraping the dirt off the top, if that is where the dirt goes, or pouring it into the other barrel if the dirt is at the bottom, yes?

Then, you could do the electrical stuff yourself! just wire the same color wires together, or switch the machine on or off. that is what is called for, not some flipping nuclear power plant maintenance.

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## ians

> No offense, but you could employ some 'technikon' students to do it for much cheaper and they get a reference. if you really want to get it done better, you need to look at what you have that other's don't. a little more of an offense would be to point out that in South Africa people are very lazy. it comes from our racial diversity, where we do not trust each other for some reason.
> 
> So, you need to price yourself better. if you were to make it 'quicker' - your service that is - then you could try to do it in less time, and, those are manufacturing hours. the problem is it doesn't mater how long it takes as the demand for productivity in south africa is so low due to the recession and lack of funding for customers. this mes they are doing nothing, fixing the thing doing nothing, then complaining about lost hours, yes?
> 
> Now, if you were to clean your equipment faster, for a start, you could try to use one barrel of acid or some sort of fast cleaning agent. then you could use it multiple times, scraping the dirt off the top, if that is where the dirt goes, or pouring it into the other barrel if the dirt is at the bottom, yes?
> 
> Then, you could do the electrical stuff yourself! just wire the same color wires together, or switch the machine on or off. that is what is called for, not some flipping nuclear power plant maintenance.


Like most things in SA. I am just going to smile at this response  :Wink:

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Brett Nortje (06-Jan-15), CLIVE-TRIANGLE (07-Jan-15)

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## AndyD

Very appropriate thread Ian, I'm muling over our six-monthly pricing adjustments as we speak. If I get any clients who complain about my pricing structure, I'll recommend they call you cause you're considerably cheaper.

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## sterne.law@gmail.com

Maybe point out the R1500 an hour for the lawyer to sort out the R300 an hour mess.

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## adrianh

> Like most things in SA. I am just going to smile at this response


Like I said in another thread.... Déjà vu

Anyway, my geyser blew up and I was quoted R600 per hour. My camera developed a fault and I was quoted as follows: R299 up front, another R300 if I don't accept the quote.

The insurance company paid the plumber and his bill was the exact amount that the insurance company pays. R6500 for 2 hours work isn't bad going.

I figured out that the lens mount got banged and bent so I stripped the lens and repaired it myself. Was it cost effective, difficult to say, it took about 5 hours to do because I had to figure out how to strip, clean, repair and reassemble the lens. I suppose the satisfaction of having done it myself was worth the effort but it came with the risk of totally trashing the lens.

The answer is simple, if your rates are within average boundanies then the customer is free to pay the same somewhere else. The determining factor, for me at least, is the experience and quality of the artisan. The problem with the man inthe street is that they only look at price and seem to think that low is good....strange how that doesn't apply to their own salaries, but that is a debate for another time.

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## ians

IT is that time of year again and it is time to increase rates again. I dont feel that R550 an hour is unreasonable to charge for electrical services. Maybe it is time to go back a little again, charge R400 but if i go over the hour by a minute or 2 charge for 2 hours that way the rate is lower but i make more turnover at the end of the day. Smart phone clock card  :Smile:  now we talking as i get the call clock in and the customer can clock me out when i am finished with the invoice and pay me via the smart phone with a card.

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## wynn

Charge them R300 per hour and make sure that you spend 65 minutes on the job?

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ians (07-Jan-15)

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## Richard S

A few customers will always think your rates are high, a few will think they are low, 80% will not think about it at all as long as they are happy with the service levels. I try to ignore the cheapskates but sometimes do make compromises to long term customers, although I usually end up calling myself names(bad ones) afterwards. I guess this is a problem all of us have at some stage. I will often do little extras for clients, but if they squeeze the last cent out of a job they cant expect any favors.

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## Dave A

> I dont feel that R550 an hour is unreasonable to charge for electrical services.


It isn't unreasonable - not for a wireman anyway. And you're an MIE  :Stick Out Tongue: 




> The insurance company paid the plumber and his bill was the exact amount that the insurance company pays. R6500 for 2 hours work isn't bad going.


I assume that wasn't just for labour, but included the geyser, pipes and other materials.
Have you checked the electrical side is up to muster?

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## ians

In comparison to other provinces is it a fair rate? Not taking into account I am an MIE, just as a normal sparky.

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## mosescapetown

> In comparison to other provinces is it a fair rate? Not taking into account I am an MIE, just as a normal sparky.


hi ians

I find your dilemma quite interesting. I had the same challenges in my construction company. I was/is only an IE. Though i had different rates for different kinds of jobs the one rate that was always under fire was the electrical rates. In my opinion charging 550 an hour is more than fair for an MIE. In Joburg you wont get complains but in CT and KZN people don't want to pay proper rates. 

I was "forced" to adjust my rates per hour and got away with about 350 per hour. I later realized (as some comments mentioned) that i had to charge smart rates and not expensive rates. I started quoting 2 hours for jobs where i normally would have done them in one hour. Initially i was spending one hour on site and then i rush back to office to cleanup there, not mentioning the prep work i did before. thought i did not want the customer to incur more than necessary costs. Silly me  :Whistling: . Later I quoted 2 hours and this included my prep, travel, cleanup. I was still giving a very good service but i covered more of my lost time and was indeed able to ask lower rates.

I will agree on one thing.. the "Fly by night" or "backyard" electricians is killing the market for the good guys out there.

I guess my advice, tip would be to find the balance between fair to you and fair to customer. And also try working more for companies than private guys. less hassle with companies.

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## Lourens.dL

As a IE and in the business since '85 I've stopped quoting hourly rates long ago. Of cause I use it to determine the quotation but don't specify it.  For instance, installing a plug will cost x amount, that would include material, consumables and labour.  The price can vary depending on what is involved i.e. length of cabeling etc. I hardly ever have issues with customers complaining.  Don't neglect to include travelling / preparation etc. costs. 

Sent from my GT-I9500 using Tapatalk

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## HR Solutions

> No offense, but you could employ some 'technikon' students to do it for much cheaper and they get a reference. if you really want to get it done better, you need to look at what you have that other's don't. a little more of an offense would be to point out that in South Africa people are very lazy. it comes from our racial diversity, where we do not trust each other for some reason.
> 
> So, you need to price yourself better. if you were to make it 'quicker' - your service that is - then you could try to do it in less time, and, those are manufacturing hours. the problem is it doesn't mater how long it takes as the demand for productivity in south africa is so low due to the recession and lack of funding for customers. this mes they are doing nothing, fixing the thing doing nothing, then complaining about lost hours, yes?
> 
> Now, if you were to clean your equipment faster, for a start, you could try to use one barrel of acid or some sort of fast cleaning agent. then you could use it multiple times, scraping the dirt off the top, if that is where the dirt goes, or pouring it into the other barrel if the dirt is at the bottom, yes?
> 
> Then, you could do the electrical stuff yourself! just wire the same color wires together, or switch the machine on or off. that is what is called for, not some flipping nuclear power plant maintenance


.


I see others have "smiled" at this ............... I'm having an absolute roll on the floor moment at the ignorance of this post !!

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## Handyman

At the end of the day, it is you that make up the price. 
Some jobs are straightforward and for some jobs you should allow contingency [explained to your client before you start with the job] 
You will learn from experience that for some clients you are too expensive and other will give you extra if you take care of them and not just focus on making money. It is true that prices charged differ from province to province with the key on being flexible. I for one will give discount if i don't have another job to go to, while lifting my price if my calls increase. In Economics its known as : The Price Elasticity of Demand.

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## HR Solutions

> I for one will give discount if i don't have another job to go to, while lifting my price if my calls increase.


Except that if you do give a discount if you don't have another job to go to, then your turnover/income drops twice (for the discounted call & the non next call)

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## mosescapetown

> Except that if you do give a discount if you don't have another job to go to, then your turnover/income drops twice (for the discounted call & the non next call)


a rather complicated conundrum...lol  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## ians

My concern is that other contractors in KZN are charging as little as R280 per hour per team. 

Could this be why my little business is still operating after 24 years.

Every day i see new contractors, with new vehicles and teams and a couple months later when i ask the sales guy behind the counter what happened to that contractor. The response is, "Damn we got screwed for R100 000 or R500 000 when the contractor went bankrupt."

These contractors which come and go, just F%^&** the industry up for the rest of us.

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mosescapetown (27-Feb-15)

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## Sparks

You can say that again. I do not work according to an hourly rate. I work my quote out according to the task at hand and the circumstances. I also adjust according to the financial status of the client. Being a micro business it is easy for me and it works. I charge different rates for working on a DB compared to clipping a cable to a wall. When my work load gets a bit much I up my prices and go with the flow.

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## mosescapetown

> My concern is that other contractors in KZN are charging as little as R280 per hour per team. 
> 
> Could this be why my little business is still operating after 24 years.
> 
> Every day i see new contractors, with new vehicles and teams and a couple months later when i ask the sales guy behind the counter what happened to that contractor. The response is, "Damn we got screwed for R100 000 or R500 000 when the contractor went bankrupt."
> 
> These contractors which come and go, just F%^&** the industry up for the rest of us.


I agree with you 100%.. these fly by nights is messing up the industry.   :Banghead:  :Gun Bandana:  :Surrender:

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## Phil Cooper

Charge a lower callout fee - and add a cost per hour, or part thereof....

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## ians

It seems i might not need to worry about this in the near future. The meeting tomorrow with the accountant will determine whether i start selling everything, close my doors and start looking for a job, or if there is a way forward. The hurdles just seem to be getting higher and more difficult to get over.

It might be time that i throw in the towel or just tap out. I have 10 months to go and my business would be going for 25 years. I was going to make this decision next year, unfortunately it looks like it will happen this week. I just dont have that will power, lust or excitement i had 25 years ago to keep going anymore.

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## wynn

> It seems i  if there is a way forward.


Perhaps it is time to concentrate on just manufacturing the appliance you spoke about in other posts and maybe do UPS installations.

You know? apply the 80/20 rule.

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## ians

Wyn going to use up the left over stock to make what i can then shut everything down. The problem is my marketing skills suck, it doesnt help having a awesome product if you cant sell it. The only way my electrical bussiness has lasted this long is because i am f&*^ good at what i do in  my trade, being a good businessman or sales person or accounting for that matter, i suck. I believe this is a problem with the majority of small businesses.

I will only know tomorrow after the meeting with the accountant how bad it really is. I just hope i have enough shit to sell to cover all the outstanding bills, otherwise i am gona loose my house and be out on the street  :Frown:

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## Sparks

All the best for today with your accountant. The industry needs to keep guys with know-how, not lose them. The laws must be enforced to get the cowboys out of the trade. Maybe it is time to get into manufacturing, or as suggested, to go with new technology installation. Load shedding will only get worse.

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## ians

The meeting went a lot better than expected. 

Maybe that's what i have been missing all this time is a decent accountant to advise me, assist me with the redistribution of my turnover, who has an interest in what i do and the team back up his suggestions.

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## Justloadit

Hi Ians,

I am not trying to be funny here, but maybe your wife should do the quotes and invoices and the books and call for payment..
The problem you have is like me, we are too close to the product and the customer, so we are emotionally involved/connected with the service or product, and immediately melt when a customer complains about the price, or wants a discount, or wants something done for free, and we oblige.

When you wife does the quotes or invoicing, she does not know who the customer is, and will be as cold as ice when asked for a price, or complain about the price, or wants a discount. She will also not give in to a discount either because she has no idea of the cost, and the price on the invoice or quote is the price you are going to pay.

It is also a good excuse to tell your customer, sorry but my accountant says you must pay RXXX and no discount before I start.
It sort of helps you feel a way out before giving in, as now some one else is responsible for the reduction in the price.

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ians (23-Apr-15)

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## Sparks

I am glad to hear the sun is still shining for you Ian. I understand and know exactly what Justloadit is talking about, I would certainly do that if my wife had not passed on already. Now it is only me to blame when I let a client convince me that they cannot afford my rates. Strange though, even a cash discount was not enough motivation for immediate payment. Thought I would try "administration fees" as an alternative to COD discount - still no luck, my quote was signed in acceptance and they ended up paying R750.00 administration fees! Believe it or not my original COD quote was only R1550 yet they still opted to pay the extra R750 :Banghead:

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## ians

> Hi Ians,
> 
> I am not trying to be funny here, but maybe your wife should do the quotes and invoices and the books and call for payment..
> The problem you have is like me, we are too close to the product and the customer, so we are emotionally involved/connected with the service or product, and immediately melt when a customer complains about the price, or wants a discount, or wants something done for free, and we oblige.
> 
> When you wife does the quotes or invoicing, she does not know who the customer is, and will be as cold as ice when asked for a price, or complain about the price, or wants a discount. She will also not give in to a discount either because she has no idea of the cost, and the price on the invoice or quote is the price you are going to pay.
> 
> It is also a good excuse to tell your customer, sorry but my accountant says you must pay RXXX and no discount before I start.
> It sort of helps you feel a way out before giving in, as now some one else is responsible for the reduction in the price.




My wife works for a company and earns twice what i do  :Frown:  She does help were she can.

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## ians

Sparks i hear you, 24 years of this crap i could tell you many a ridiculous story of customers and their issues and excuses.

Dave had the right idea, i just need to take that step up.

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## Justloadit

> My wife works for a company and earns twice what i do  She does help were she can.


Ians, you gonna have to grow some very thick skin, and cite yourself up, to immediately say "NO I CAN ONLY DO IT ONCE PAYMENT IS RECEIVED" or "SORRY SIR I CAN NOT CONTINUE UNTIL YOUR ACCOUNT IS UP TO DATE", once payment is received, your next statement will be "SORRY SIR< BUT OUR COMPANY POLICY HAS CHANGED AND WE NO LONGER ENTERTAIN OR HAVE ACCOUNTS AND WORK STRICTLY ON A COD BASIS< WITH A DEPOSIT UP FRONT FOR MATERIALS".

I only have 3 accounts now, who are excellent payers, and have never questioned my price or work ethic. I bend over backwards for them, because they are always on time with their payments, and are reasonable customers when something goes wrong. The rest are COD with deposits when it is a special and I have to buy out raw materials I would normally not use.

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## mosescapetown

Hi again ians.

I am well pleased to hear that you found a good accountant. Its one of the MOST important things for any business.

If i may I would like to comment on some of the things that was noted during this thread. I feel some of them needs more mention or attention...

1-  Ian you said that you suck at advertising yourself and running the business side of things but you excel in your trade. This is exactly why you are good in one and not the other. In my experience (and those of many big businessman) tradesman find it very hard to be businessman and businessman struggle to be excellent tradesman. The reason being that it is 2 different kinds of reasoning to solve the problems they each face. I was a tradesman in my first business and this caused me to loose that business. I was really good at what i did especially complex switchgear and control systems and was proud of it, but my admin/accounting lacked horribly and thus i lost it all. Fortunately for me i met a fantastic mentor (Mr Ginsberg) who started grooming me for real business. The lesson i learned is not that i was stupid at doing business in my first attempt i simply needed to employ/contract someone for my admin/accounting and get teams to help me work to free myself up more for management. Today i try to not work in my businesses but rather on them. starting up you don't always have a choice but always keep your goal as trying to work yourself out of a job and not into it. if that makes sense. 

we each have to choose firstly what we like.. then what we want to be... You cannot excel in something you hate so no point in managing business if it kills your joy... be a great electrician rather and get an accountant , buddy, wife to manage admin for you. this will ensure great job satisfaction and great service and this equals happy clients and more profit. if you don't wanna be a big business man then don't try to operate and advertize yourself as one. there is great need in the market for trustworthy tradesman. the choice can only be made by you.

2- If you (like me) find that you like your trade but have real passion for business then you must start educating yourself and make the mindset shift to think more like a project manager and less like the tradesman with the tool in the hand and later again shift to standing completely outside the work circle and manage from outside not within. this will take years as you really gonna find it hard to reprogram a good artisan that believes in his hands. his quite stubborn...

If you do decide to go for a bigger business rather than the one man show approach then you must get your legal and structural setup in your business right first. Get info, read good books, talk to lawyers and accountants. not ex government accountants but business and tax accountants. not normal lawyers but business lawyers. Study the law about business and debt. its invaluable information and helps you to ask the right questions when you meet the professionals. Why debt (NCA) you ask? this will help you talk to bank managers/investors and understand what they need and even before then structure your own cash-flow in the form they like to see it...


3- Wynn made good point ... the opportunity you have to manufacture something for a market that will need it more and more might just be they way forward for you financially. you can start small in manufacturing if you have a second business fueling the start-up in the beginning. Advertizing is a must. You might not be good at it but it does not mean it is hard or that expensive. I started an internet marketing company with no clients (but myself) in the beginning for the sole purpose of learning how to do advertizing. getting websites and domains and stuff going is not hard (in-mail me if interested in how) Point is you must use what tools are out there to promote your company/business. Coke is the biggest brand in the world for one reason only. They make crappy cold drinks but they have the biggest add budget/campaign in the world. the success of the business is NOT about how good you are, but how well you are known. (now try convince the tradesman in you of that and see how his pride rises) 

Sorry getting carried away but i love business and i WANT SA businessman to SUCCEED and do well. the future of our nation depends on businesses for jobs. 

Summary... find out what you want... educate yourself for what you want... gear your business to achieve the goal you want... let the world out there know what you are...  

NS... sounds to me that you have been given a second change on a new season ians. now decide, adapt to new world and may the next 25 years be twice as much fun as the last 25 years.. :Smile:  good luck to you.

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AndyD (23-Apr-15), DanE (25-Apr-15), Dave A (27-Apr-15), ians (23-Apr-15), Sparks (24-Apr-15)

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## Sparks

Good advice Moses, the same applies to me, however, being the stubborn SOB that I am who will sign on the dotted line, I need to know first-hand that it is in order, so even though I have been toying with the idea of expanding, I am too full of crap to just hand over the responsibility to someone I do not know. I get a lot of job satisfaction because I know everything is safe. I have one ad on Google and am snowed under with work. Concentrating mainly on COC's because there just is not as much time anymore for other work, I have a reputation among agents and transferring attorneys which has them waiting for COCs rather than go elsewhere. They don't want comebacks. Unfortunately the seller has sold his house and does not want to fork out any money so prefers to pay an exorbitant administration fee for me having to wait until transfer before being paid. Nowadays the banks do not consider a bond until a COC is in place so it has to be done before the time where previously I could schedule it according to when the documents are lodged which gave me 10 days to do it.

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## Dieman

Hi
I asked a qualified CPT plumber who assisted me in various other plumbing and non plumbing works in the past to replace a faulty electrical plug in my flat.
He claimed to have slightly extended the burnt wire, used a connector and replaced the plug. The entire job was done in about 15 minutes. The charge for the work is R750 (R250 for material and R500 for labour). Is this fair given that the work was outside the scope of this trade? The same plumber charged R650 to repair a faulty geyser valve.

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## Dave A

> Is this fair given that the work was outside the scope of this trade? The same plumber charged R650 to repair a faulty geyser valve.


Strange world we live in. I would have thought the question would be about getting a plumber to do an electrician's work. 
(Would you get an electrician to do a plumbing repair?
Would the electrician do it?)

But no - it's about the rate charged.
OK. So what's the thinking here? The rate the plumber should charge should be less than his/her normal rate because they're operating outside of their trade? 
Well, none of their contributing costs have changed, so why should their hourly rate change?

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## HR Solutions

> Strange world we live in. I would have thought the question would be about getting a plumber to do an electrician's work. 
> (Would you get an electrician to do a plumbing repair?
> Would the electrician do it?)
> 
> But no - it's about the rate charged.
> OK. So what's the thinking here? The rate the plumber should charge should be less than his/her normal rate because they're operating outside of their trade? 
> Well, none of their contributing costs have changed, so why should their hourly rate change?



I agree and the fact is he did work for u that u were not prepared to do or couldn't do. You do not have to be qualified to change a plug.

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## AndyD

I don't see the charges as unreasonable and I'm also interested that you infer he should be charging less because the work isn't his core business. 

I'm reading between the lines he replaced the socket rather than the plug but I might be wrong....

If the wiring was burned at the back of the socket then almost certainly the socket itself was damaged which in turn often causes damage to any plugs that are inserted into it. It's very rare that I replace a damaged socket without replacing at least one plug on an appliance that's also been overheated.

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## Sparks

In my experience plumbers know little to nothing about electricity. I hope for the sake of your family that the correct thickness of wire was used, that the correct polarity has been maintained and that the terminations are secure. Any one of these items can cause electrocution and/or fire. Having had a plumber do it is grounds for your insurance company to refuse payment should your house burn down. Heaven forbid that one of your children get electrocuted. You were prepared to let the plumber do it so don't complain about how much he charges. The work is beyond his expertise. Rather spend your time praying that everything is right.

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Andromeda (16-Jan-17), Bodie (23-Oct-19)

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## ians

Wow it is the middle of 2019 "already". 

A few things have changed...not my rate...they went up slightly ...but many other things have changed.

Lost R 10 000 because the accountant who did my books previously... retired and disappeared with the R 10 k (was suppose to get everything up to date to hand over) 

I finally after all these years (28) received my first tax clearance certificate...(had to sell one vehicle to pay the outstanding balance) lost another R38 k getting someone else to sort out the mess the other accountant made of my books.

Dumped "all" the bad paying customers...kept the good customers and found a few better paying customers...who dont whine about the bill all the time...but rather just want the job done right.

What blows my mind is those bad paying customers are still trying to get me to go back and work for them...really.

Two things i no longer tolerate in my business...people who speak to me like i am one of their employees who they have absolutely no respect...and slow payers.

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## ians

Lets talk about electrical contractors hourly rates.

What would you regard as a reasonable rate...an average rate for a company which has a bakkie with a team (sparky and assistant) 

Hourly rates would vary...

Domestic...R 500 per hour (easy access no frills) 

Commercial...R800 per hour (more difficult access ...having to use service access and out of trading times and have to deal with the public during operating hours) 

Industrial...1200 per hour ( the list is too long...but to give you an idea...induction before you even visit the site...medical clearances ...tool talks every morning before you even lift a tool...as mentioned the list is just tooo long...you get the idea) 

Travelling per km ...R6.50 per km (makes no difference whether you are driving to a house or a building...the petrol and running cost is still becoming one of the biggest overheads in a business) 

I am keen to hear what everyone thinks...contractors and customers who feel we they are getting a good deal or being ripped off.

However because the customers are not aware of the recommended rate issued by the electrical industrial council ...maybe someone could attach a copy of the latest rates to show everyone what they should be paying...to give people an idea of the correct rate...including all the fees contractors are required to pay if registered.

Two things i have noticed recently...people using social media platforms to promote their side line business (moonlighting) in the evenings and weekends.

The other is unregistered people advertising cheap rates R 150 - 250 per hour some even per day on places like market place...with pictures of projects they are busy with or completed. 

So why is it such a bad thing ?

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## Blurock

The world is regulated by standards. We use standard in our life every day; from your cell phone to the water in your tap to the electricity in your home. Road signs, engines,  accounting, printing, packaging, food, just about anything that you can think of. (Think ISO, SABS, ICASA, IEEE etc). 
The air you put into your tires is measured. The fuel you put into your car has to conform to certified specifications. A doctor has to use a calibrated syringe to inject the right volume of medication. All instruments of weight or measurement have to be calibrated to ensure that the correct standards are being followed.

If you use non-calibrated instruments, you may have the incorrect tire pressure or your car may not perform due to the incorrect fuel. Or you may die because the doctor injected the wrong dose! So many things can go wrong if we do not follow the rules.

Why then would you use an unqualified guy to do work that can have very damaging consequences to your family or business? 
I have learnt to pay what is due as the consequences for not following the rules are always more expensive! :Yes:

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## ians

> Why then would you use an unqualified guy to do work that can have very damaging consequences to your family or business? 
> I have learnt to pay what is due as the consequences for not following the rules are always more expensive!


We say this and people do use Registered qualified tradesmen ...and then we have a power dip in the factory where i was working yesterday (twice...2 x approx 1-2 second dips) and it blows the crap out of the entire electrical installation...that 2 second dip caused enough damage to the electronic components that most of the damage was visible...all the CNC machines had to be restarted...the occupation sensors all went on the blink...thank goodness i had installed a pure sine wave inverter which is used to support the important electronics...like the server PCs...telephone system...all the computers...which brings me to the use of registered contractors.

A couple of weeks ago there was a 12 ft wire fence...from floor to top electric fence installed by a well know company which advertises anti climb ...anti cut fencing ...well the interesting part is the 1.5 million rand installation installed around the complex ...proved to be a bit of a waste...they climbed the fence jumped over and entered the factory in the early evening...(also note the gates have 24 hr security) now they have had to raise the electric fence another 6 rungs  :Frown:  at a huge cost...but anyway this is not about the money wasted on the fencing.

The security lighting also proved to be a bit of a flop...dark spots everywhere...so the complex managing agent (wont mention their name as i dont have anything good to say about them either) send one of their many preferred suppliers (i have had to deal with 3 of their preferred suppliers all i am gona say is ...WOW not good) they decide to add flood lights on the side of the building and connect it to our factory...the fact the "electrician" spent the entire time sitting in his vehicle on the laptop isn't the issue as maybe his team might have had the correct qualification to carry out the work...i didnt check...we have this dip and i notice all the reception lights are on...i switch all the light switches off...the reception lights...down lights and a few other lights stay on...so i go switch off the lighting circuit breakers...wait a couple seconds and reset...so what is the problem...it seems the electrical contractor has somehow bypassed all the lights some how to get his day/night switch for the flood light to work  :Frown:  do i call these people back or do i just fix the problem myself.

while i am on  a roll here...

first preferred supplier...the electrical contractor which did the COC ...one f the many problem i have found...he installed 150 mm long screws into the DB where the wiring looms go ...right through the loom ...it blew a 800 breaker in the sub station...ther ewer emany other issues a story for another day.

The second...was given the task of checking that my installation was done correctly...he couldnt find anything wrong...but i did point out numerous issues which were not repaired when the previous "inspector" issued the COC...he indicated that he would attend to them...still waiting...when asked why he didnt bring any equipment to carry out the tests and inspection...i was told he just wanted to get a feel of who was responsible for the installation and decide...either he was just too lazy to do the inspection or just wanted to bill the managing agent for his chat with me.

now the third ...a simple job like connecting a day night switch to the building electrics...cant even get that right.

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## Bodie

> We say this and people do use Registered qualified tradesmen ...and then we have a power dip in the factory where i was working yesterday (twice...2 x approx 1-2 second dips) and it blows the crap out of the entire electrical installation...that 2 second dip caused enough damage to the electronic components that most of the damage was visible...all the CNC machines had to be restarted...the occupation sensors all went on the blink...thank goodness i had installed a pure sine wave inverter which is used to support the important electronics...like the server PCs...telephone system...all the computers...which brings me to the use of registered contractors.
> 
> A couple of weeks ago there was a 12 ft wire fence...from floor to top electric fence installed by a well know company which advertises anti climb ...anti cut fencing ...well the interesting part is the 1.5 million rand installation installed around the complex ...proved to be a bit of a waste...they climbed the fence jumped over and entered the factory in the early evening...(also note the gates have 24 hr security) now they have had to raise the electric fence another 6 rungs  at a huge cost...but anyway this is not about the money wasted on the fencing.
> 
> The security lighting also proved to be a bit of a flop...dark spots everywhere...so the complex managing agent (wont mention their name as i dont have anything good to say about them either) send one of their many preferred suppliers (i have had to deal with 3 of their preferred suppliers all i am gona say is ...WOW not good) they decide to add flood lights on the side of the building and connect it to our factory...the fact the "electrician" spent the entire time sitting in his vehicle on the laptop isn't the issue as maybe his team might have had the correct qualification to carry out the work...i didnt check...we have this dip and i notice all the reception lights are on...i switch all the light switches off...the reception lights...down lights and a few other lights stay on...so i go switch off the lighting circuit breakers...wait a couple seconds and reset...so what is the problem...it seems the electrical contractor has somehow bypassed all the lights some how to get his day/night switch for the flood light to work  do i call these people back or do i just fix the problem myself.
> 
> while i am on  a roll here...
> 
> first preferred supplier...the electrical contractor which did the COC ...one f the many problem i have found...he installed 150 mm long screws into the DB where the wiring looms go ...right through the loom ...it blew a 800 breaker in the sub station...ther ewer emany other issues a story for another day.
> ...


I FEEL YOUR PAIN - There are contractors out there who do not belong in the electrical profession at all.

You installed an inverter with UPS capability I presume?

Imagine having to work with contractors that are appointed because they comply with the BBBEE specifications out out by government departments?

At the first briefing the established and older contractors can be easily identifiable by the vehicles they drive, the cloths they wear and the sensible phones they use.
They the Versace wearing, Rolex sporting, Gucci shoed, Latest Disco driving crowd.
They invariably have no clue as to what the industry is about, ask *payment* questions only (technical a bit beyond their skill levels) and carry on about the projects they are involved with.

Now when BBBEE compliance is required, this is the crowd that get awarded the contracts - usually at about 45 to 75% more than the average quotes submitted.

A visit to site after the project has commenced is usually shocking!!

Anybody else in this game?

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## Bodie

first out = put
They - The

I should not type when I get riled up by this topic ...  :Smile:

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## Blurock

Borrowed from other group, but a must Read story!!!!! 
A customer asked me how much it cost to make a table....
I answered him: R1500
He said: So expensive for this job?
I asked: How much do you think it would cost you?
He answers me: R800 maximum... That's a pretty simple job right? !"
- For R800 I invite you to do it yourself.
- But.... I don't know how to.
- For R800 I'll teach you how to. So besides saving you R700, you'll get the knowledge for the next time you want
- It seemed right to him and he agreed.
- But to get started: you need tools: A table saw, a planer, a top, dormants, etc...
- But I don't have all these equipment and I can't buy all of these for one job.
- Well then for another R250 more I'll rent my stuff to you so you can do it.
- Okay, he says.
- Okay! Tuesday I'm waiting for you to start doing this work
- But I can't on Tuesday I only have time today.
- I'm sorry, but I'm only available Tuesday to teach you and lend you my stuff. Other days are busy with other customers.
- Okay! That means I'm going to have to sacrifice my Tuesday, give up my tasks.
- I forgot. To do your job yourself, you also have to pay for the nonproductive factors.
- That is? What is this?"
- Bureaucratic, tax, vat, security, insurance, fuel etc.
- Oh no!... But to accomplish these tasks, I'm going to spend more money and waste a lot of time!
- Do you have them? You can do it to me before?"
- Okay!
- I'll make you all the material you need. Truck loading is done Monday evening or Tuesday morning you'll have to come by 6 loading the truck. Don't forget to be on time to avoid traffic jams and be on time
- At 6??? Nope! Too early for me! I used to getting up later.
...
- You know, I've been thinking. Y ' all better get the job done. I'd rather pay you the R1500. If I had to, it wouldn't be perfect and it would cost me a lot more.
When you pay for a job, especially handcrafted, you pay not only for the material used, but also:
- Knowledge
- Experience
- Study
- Tools
- Services
- Time to go
- punctuality
- Accountability
- Patents
- Sacrifices
- Safety and security
- Payment of tax obligations
No one can denigrate other people's work by judging prices.
Only by knowing all the elements necessary for the production of a certain work can you estimate the actual cost.
I did not write this dialogue, but am sharing it to support craftsmen and entrepreneurs.

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## Blurock

Tradesmen deserve to be paid for a good job. The same applies to entertainment. Some people think that musicians have to perform for peanuts or even for free. 
Planning for a concert, a guy once asked me why it is so expensive to hire an artist if he performs for only 2 hours?

Well, to perform for 2 hours, you have to be able to play your instrument well, sing and perform well and keep the audience captivated and satisfied.
To be able to do that takes years of practice. (They say to be a master at any profession or task takes 10 years).
Before a concert, you have to first choose your material, then rehearse for a week or even a month, depending on whether its new or old covers.
You have to check your instruments and equipment and then transport it to the venue.
Setting up and getting the acoustics right takes time. You have to check and set up electricity connections, lighting and tune your instruments.
Often the venue is not well equipped and then you have to improvise so that the show can go on.

For any profession there is behind the scenes work, training and preparation required.
Or as a wise man once said, "I do not charge for hitting the the nail into the board. I charge for knowing where to position the nail".

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## Justloadit

I get this often, 

I can get it cheaper at China Mall.
So why are you here?
Because the stuff fails and there is no after sales service, and no technical advise. They tell me to buy a new one. Can you fix this one?
 :Smile:  You know what, it will be cheaper to buy a new one from me, at least you have a warranty and after sales service if needed!

I usually don't see them again, but the worst is that I still don't get the sales :Mad:

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## ians

> I get this often, 
> 
> I can get it cheaper at China Mall.
> So why are you here?
> Because the stuff fails and there is no after sales service, and no technical advise. They tell me to buy a new one. Can you fix this one?
>  You know what, it will be cheaper to buy a new one from me, at least you have a warranty and after sales service if needed!
> 
> I usually don't see them again, but the worst is that I still don't get the sales


Thats the problem ... people who do cheap work last just long enough to put the qualified person out of bussiness ... then all I hear all day is "there is no servce" ... workmanship is so bad ... what happened to skilled labour" the answer is simple it is your fault not the tradesman ... you put the skilled tradesman out of bussiness by always taking the cheapest quote.

I did a job last week ... had to use blinkers and dark glasses so that I could just do what I was asked to do ... someone might say ... but you shouldnt have done the job if the rest of the installation was so illegal ... I am over worrying about illegal installtions ... I have bills to pay ... and right now I am doing whatever it takes to feed my family.

besides that I am always seen as the "bad person" ... the one who always complains about the illegal stuff ... no more ... now the blinkers go on and dark glasses if it is that bad ... I put a note at the bottom of the invoice " please note your electricial installation requires urgent attention" what the customer does with the information I dont care ... the owner user is responsible for the electrical installation ... not me ... I will issue a COC for the work I did once a coc is issued for the rest of the installation ... done next job.

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## adrianh

> I usually don't see them again, but the worst is that I still don't get the sales


Could it be that the problem is not your products but rather the psychology of the client (and of a large number of people) - They see their immediate problem and the cheapest solution to that problem in the present. 

How do you sell the notion that money will be saved in the long term by buying a more expensive product (This has actually been disproved with AA batteries - cheaper batteries actually perform better in terms of cost vs energy supplied according to ProjectFarm on YouTube)

I am that client today - my compressor threw a hissyfit yesterday....It looks like it may have seized up (I will look later) - I would love to buy a super quiet 100L machine but it is out of my budget, I have to finish a project now...I need a cost effective solution today though I might buy the more expensive machine later...

The eternal toss up between immediate reward and possible greater long term reward....

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## ians

Someone mentioned that I am expensive ( I should be charging around R950 - R1200 per hour taking into consideration my skill level and years of hands on experience)  I am actually really cheap ... considering what you get for the pocket money you spend ... its simple ... I have been using spanjaard cold galv spray paint for years @R155 a tin ... I decided that a R35 tin of the same stuff from Gelmar surely does the same thing ... I threw the tin away and went to SA fastners and bought a box of tins of spanjaard.

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## Sparks

@ Adrianh: Depending how much still needs to be done an alternative consideration might be to rent one for the project then get a quality one later.

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