# Administration Category > Administrative issues >  I hate rules, but...

## Dave A

I hate rules, but there are times when some sort of guideline helps.

For anyone who is not sure of my philosophy on this, please take a moment to read A guide to forum etiquette for some guidelines that are already in place.

From time to time "issues" are going to turn up. I would like to discuss them here and then weave our solutions into that gentle guide. Right now a weakness seems to exist in terms of some commercial aspects.

Today I need to raise the issue of how our commercial activities are exposed within signatures. There are a few elements to this discussion, being
MessagesImagesLinks
Looking at other forums, from what I've seen signature rules are normally set around number of images, number of links, and rules on links of a commercial nature - normally none or one. But we're not just another forum and I'd like to see if we can agree on something less rigid.

My initial outlook is this...

The site is goaled towards business owners and managers - there is a business theme. I think it's fine to link to our business websites or gently draw attention to the nature of our business activities in our signatures. However, I don't want to reduce the forum to a bazaar. To my mind there are two indicators that would show we might be heading for trouble:
Our signatures start looking like product listsAn enquiry about purchasing a product leads to a flurry of "I can supply" responses as opposed to advice about factors to consider in making a purchasing decision. 
I think giving advice is great - outright selling is not. If you've given sound advice we all learn something and you could well end up with a sale or more anyway. But let the reader decide if they're going to approach you with an order.

Anyway, can I hand over to the forum at this point for some input. Please give me your thoughts and suggestions.

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## RKS Computer Solutions

Seeing as this is regarding me, I will hold comment until the forum has decided...

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## stephanfx

I do not really think that is pertaining specifically to you, Riaan. 

I do however think that there needs to be a decision made about what the limits should be and my suggestion is thus:
Image : Max 120x60
Links : Max 6
Message : no more than 3 lines.

This should keep the signatures to relative small size so that one does not have to scroll for an eternity to reach the last post on a page.

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## Dave A

Thanks Riaan. But you don't get off the hook that easy  :Stick Out Tongue:  

First, this thread isn't about you - although it was to some extent prompted by elements within your signature. I see you adjusted your signature voluntarily already and I truly appreciate your spirit of co-operation.

I'm trying to get something workable not just for now, but into the future. You have some professional understanding of the impact of these links which I think is useful for all of us to find the right solution together.

For example, I don't want to set rel=nofollow tags in signatures because it devalues the links. But I also can't have the page subject being adversely affected by the content or volume of the outgoing links. My theory is that a few high quality links is worth far more than a horde of low quality links - it's a balancing act and I'd like to find the right answers.

The whole topic has prompted me to give some serious thought about my own signature too - there are 4 links in there at the mo  :Whistling:  

On the technical front: 
I suspect the optimum solution for dual linking to a site from any one page is one top level link and one deep link.

Another technical factor is the total link count per page - which should be kept under 100 where possible.

I also have a theory or 2 about how search engines view signature links versus thread content in known forum formats - I suspect links in signatures are not quite the "threat" that many forum webmasters think.

Finally (for now), I am working on a rather interesting tweak that will introduce a new type of link in the profile area of each member's post. Which means whatever we come up with - we need to factor in one extra special link that's still to come.

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## RKS Computer Solutions

Dave, agreed, spending major time on SEO the last 2 weeks or so has provided quite an insight into how things work....

If I may ask something / make suggestions...

having the [sigpic there to add picture to your signature is great, but bb code available to the extent of hyperlinking and placing alt text for the image would release one line extra...

Also, I have javascript available that would randomly display a link, could be used for one deeplink...  whereby you load up 200 deep links in the script and it only displays one...

While typing this message, I'm doing a link analysis on this page with my message still open...  Here's the verdict...

Total:                138
Internal:             122
External:             16
Followed External:  16
Not Followed:        51
Secure:                0

Would love to know what your next upgrade/special link idea is...

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## duncan drennan

> having the [sigpic there to add picture to your signature is great, but bb code available to the extent of hyperlinking and placing alt text for the image would release one line extra...


Have a look here, http://www.theforumsa.co.za/forums/s...ight=signature

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## Dave A

> Would love to know what your next upgrade/special link idea is...


It should be worth the wait. It's a concept Duncan and I have been working on together. Unfortunately it involves a fair amount of customising and vB are in the throws of upgrades. I need to hold on until it seems we're back to a stable version.

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## RKS Computer Solutions

It's now been 10 hours since posting the original post, and no-one that has complained has aired their views...

Dave, you said you had multiple complaints, I don't care who complained, I just want to be part of the community and help get this next policy right...  Do you want to send out PM's to everybody and ask their opinions or is this thread going to go missing in the midnight shadows?

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## Dave A

I'm comfortable allowing 24 hours for inputs and let everyone digest what's been said so far. In "setting rules" I'll be talking to concepts anyway. I'm not big on hauling out rulers and counting links.

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## Snoopy_inc

ok,

I have had this discussion on my forum about this issue in particular, i have told them no Pictures in any way in the signature but avatars are alowed, one doesnt want to take the attention away from the information provided, in saying that this isnt my forum, so i will make a suggestion.  Make the images limited to a very specific size or just say no pictures in signatures, one can have avatars and text for (referrence of the website etc) there doesnt need to be more.  My 2c

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## Debbiedle

I think that you call a maximum size, simply because loading for the rest of us becomes easier and quicker.  Also scrolling the page is easier.  I  don't know enough about the links and will learn from you guys.

I am a member of another forum where there is no limit on *pixel/actual size* and one particular poster has a signature that in fact take up 33% of my 17" screen!  Annoying!

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## Dave A

I think given the layout of the forum, the vertical height restriction on images in signatures is going to be quite important.

When Duncan and I were playing with this in the beginning, we were thinking along the lines of what he has in his signature (or currently in mine for that matter). At the moment I'm leaning towards something around 50 pixels high. To give some idea to people not used to pixel measurements - the avatar is set at 80 pixels high maximum.

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## stephanfx

50 Pixels high sounds reasonable to me, you can put a lot in that height, just a thought though, how about making the maximum image a banner size (468px Long x 60px High), this size seems to work nicely on other forums. Again, just a thought.

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## Dave A

Hmmm. And it's a standard image size which is a really good idea.

Just to have the options on the table - what are other standard image sizes? Let's look at ones with lower than 60 pixel heights.

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## stephanfx

I found a link to *link no longer valid* where all current standard sizes can be found plus examples, plus some common but not standard sizes. Hope this helps.

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## Dave A

Thanks Stephan - it looks like a limit of 240 x 33 would allow for a number of standard and common options if we go for a smaller than 60 height.

Would anyone be unhappy if I set a 250 x 35 limit on this?

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## stephanfx

I say go for it!

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## RKS Computer Solutions

I spend more time in Adobe Photoshop changing logos the last few days for all places over the internet than what I do actual work...  Sounds like a good size, what would the max kb be?

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## bullfrog

tbh I also don't see any purpose for having a picture in a sig. In my opinion it just wastes space and tends to be too flashy in some cases. I like the idea of having small image buttons in a signature and that's it! Thats just my view on things.

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## Dave A

> Sounds like a good size, what would the max kb be?


According to the guide - file sizes will be about 10KB. So I could set a limit of 15KB and we shouldn't have any issues.

I'll try to cover the issue of "style" in the guide too. Small and classy is better than bold and brash for many of us I'm sure.

At the very least I'll make sure that they can't be animated. Those ones bug me big time when I'm trying to read a thread.

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## RKS Computer Solutions

file size is 6.6kb, being a transparent png and all...  looks a tad cramped though, how about 250x70?  Photoshop likes that....

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## duncan drennan

Just wanted to weigh in on this in a more general sense....

The way I think of the signatures is like a business card, or mentioning your business to some over a meal etc. You would only really give some brief details about what you do, unless you're asked specifically. Then you can go for it. Your business card also doesn't tend to have a list of your current products (unless you only sell one or two things), else you'd be changing it every week. It gives relevant general info.

I think in general there are probably just a few guidelines that need to be in place, rather than rules. Be reasonable with image size (some people are on dialÃ¢â¬âup), use relevant general links (and allow people to ask if they want more info), keep links to a minimum, and allow the conversation to dominate, not your signature (it is a business card, not a billboard Ã¢â¬â if you want a billboard then buy some advertising space from Dave).

If you do happen to find that someone's signature is irritating you, or you feel it is out of line, then just PM one of the admins and let them address it.

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## RKS Computer Solutions

Dave, any of your planned mods available for uploading of VCF files so that interested members and the public can download them?  Have been seeing quite a lot of visitors...

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## duncan drennan

> Dave, any of your planned mods available for uploading of VCF files so that interested members and the public can download them?  Have been seeing quite a lot of visitors...


I'm a bit confused...why? Would it not be better to just put contact info on your website? Also, quite a bit of info can be added by using the User CP

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## RKS Computer Solutions

Have you looked at the front page during the day and seen how many visitors there are?  Contact info is off course on the site, but it makes it quickly accessible to the public visiting the forum....

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## Dave A

> Dave, any of your planned mods available for uploading of VCF files so that interested members and the public can download them?  Have been seeing quite a lot of visitors...


A click-to-download icon in the postbit (member info area in the post) maybe?
An interesting idea. Technically not much of a challenge making it available - but can we take comments for and against.

For the record - the members profile list is not set as viewable to the public at the moment. It was getting hammered by bots...

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## Snoopy_inc

RKS your logo is very acceptable as it stands now.  Nice size and to be honest it draws my attention more then the bigger version.

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## RKS Computer Solutions

> A click-to-download icon in the postbit (member info area in the post) maybe?
> An interesting idea. Technically not much of a challenge making it available - but can we take comments for and against.
> 
> For the record - the members profile list is not set as viewable to the public at the moment. It was getting hammered by bots...


Cool...  Here's the way I see it...  Duncan has posted about being able to add information via the User CP...  The vCard option there allows for the download of the user name and an email address...

My vCard, (attached to this post, in ZIP format), has the following information:

Company name -- My Name -- Phone nr -- Fax nr -- Email -- Website -- Company Slogan -- Company logo

That is a load more info than just a user name on the forum and an email addy as contact....

*Thanks for the comment Snoopy!*

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## Ann Williams

As Duncan has said a little previously in this conversation - a signature is like a business card... But we also need to remember that a business card is also a marketing tool. Having contributors able to market themselves a little bit gets them coming back and contributing more great stuff. 

(And, Duncan, you really need to tell all of us a little bit more about your consulting work and what makes you special, in your signature - even a sentence...)

So, another 2c to toss into the fountain of ideas here... 

Keep it very loose about what people can put in their signatures and let members have their freedom of expression. Basically keep the limitations that are made, based on technical considerations (no huge graphics & file sizes - this is a free forum and we are not paying for the space, so we should be mindful of abusing the priveledge of using this space.)

Cheers
A

Ps. More about this model of forum and at least covering the costs (not just through marketing) in a new thread. :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## Dave A

> Ps. More about this model of forum and at least covering the costs (not just through marketing) in a new thread.


Something that's coming or did I miss something, Ann?

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## Ann Williams

Hi Dave, sorry about that... got sidetracked.

I thought it might be better on a new thread, but I may as well keep going.

The scenario: this is a free forum; you pay out of your own/business's pocket to host, build and maintain the forum; then the admin team and moderator's give a huge amount of their time, resources and expertise....

What about having a mechanism for users to make voluntary contributions towards the running of the forum? Once-off or regular if wanted. (It would certainly come in cheaper than us hiring a consultant to give us the info we can gain from regular use of this forum! :Stick Out Tongue: )

I'm not sure how much of a mission this would be to organise as it would rather defeat the purpose if say the fees for a new bank account are more than any contributions made.

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## Ann Williams

Another way of 'paying' yourselves for a job well done is to give the administrators advertising space on the site to promote your businesses.

Obviously you don't want to fill the pages with advertising (or else you'll look like one of the news sites that have so much advertising that almost everyone skims right over everything), but you certainly could tell us a lot more about your businesses than is currently being said.

This is a topic that I handle in my electronic marketing workshop and I am always fascinated to see where a webmaster has managed to maintain the delicate balance between giving useful information and including a punt for their products. (As I have just done in this paragraph. :Whistling: ) 

One of the best SA examples I have seen is how the Ideate blog team manage to make their blog sell the products from their various businesses. They have found a really good balance... great postings and frequent references to their goodies!

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## Dave A

Thanks Ann. And now here comes that big monkey wrench.

What if I'm not that interested in making money off of this site! This site was founded for a purpose and generating me an income was not it.

That been said, there are probably going to be expenses down the line over and above hosting costs, so developing an income stream is a good idea. Should there ever be a substantial surplus - well I view this as a co-operative and the main contributors could expect a slice.

Not that I don't expect my efforts, and those of everyone else who contribute to the site, to go unrewarded. There are a few life lessons I've gathered along the way that give me great faith that the rewards will come.

As example. There is a saying that "You don't have to make your money the same way you lost it." That might be an _aha_ moment for someone who comes to that point, but it's true for life in general too. Often, the payback for our efforts comes in unexpected ways. You make a big contribution, the reward comes - just not always in the way you expected it.

All that been said, I have learnt in my wanderings around the internet since starting this site that free-to-join forums can be financially viable with a number of income streams. But I'm in no rush to get "the money pouring in." And as the need for funds increases, I'll still be trying to achieve that in a manner that is not overwhelming of the main content and purpose, and is not taking out of the pocket of those who are making the content contributions.

There is still a fair amount of space for advert type revenue without being intrusive. My priority is to use those spaces for something that might be interesting and useful, rather than just financially rewarding.

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## Ann Williams

Hi Dave.

That's great. It is such a pleasure to see a spirit of mentoring by someone like yourself who has a lot of knowledge about running a business (the downs as well as the ups). 

I often wonder what has happened to mentoring, rather than training only, as a means of building business and growing peoples' skills. I think of some South African greats such as Raymond Ackerman with the Ackerman Foundation. You seem to be building a living legacy with the forum, and thank you very much for doing what you are doing here. 

I've been here less than a week and it has already been really useful for me. I'm also very aware that even though I haven't paid for it, that some of this information is of great value to me. All too often I've seen business people think that info can only be good, or trusted, if it comes out the mouth of a R1 000 an hour lawyer or consultant, or from an agency. For me, the experience of people who have been in entreprenurial trenches for a while, is worth its weight in gold. (Even if its just light-hearted encouragement at a time when you feel the rollercoaster is heading down the Big Dip...)

So, come on any other fans out there, it's time to tell everyone else you know out there to come and participate. (Wow. Whew! Never been a member (?convert? ?fanatic?) recruiter for a business cause before.) :Clap: 

Thanks again...

Ann

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