# General Business Category > Technology Forum >  SA programmers and web coders too expensive

## daveob

Yes, I realise that I'll probably get a host of hate mail via PM, but just hear me out :

A few months back, I wanted a special software utility - nothing fancy, and only a few hours work for a good coder ( I know this with programming experience ).

The best price I could get locally was R12,500

Then I discovered rentacoder.com ( no, I do not get referral commissions )

On this site, I can find a web coder, html / php / mySQL/etc, a programmer that works in C++, VB, Java, Flash, etc, etc, or I can get a copywriter to write text for web pages, etc.

How does it work ? Simple - you deposit funds into your account ( pay via credit card or paypal ), then you write the specs of the job you want doing and post it as a "Bid Request".

RentAcoder ( RAC ) then list it on their site, and coders from all over the world come and post a "bid" to your project. You select a coder, set a deadline ( a full refund to you if the specs are not met by the deadline ) and away you go.

I have been using RAC for over a year, worked with coders from all over the globe ( India, USA, UK, Indonesia, Australia and more ).

Is it better ? Well, you remember that R12,500 utility I wanted ? I got that done for $65 in 2 days flat.

Another example ( punting my own sites now, if I am allowed in context ), is www.autobodyratings.co.za  -- complete web site ( start to finish ) with database integration, and the copy text for the front page -- $135. 

Now tell me why we should be ripped off locally. If I am going to use local, it has to compete with the service and cost that I can get in the international market.

OK. Fire away while I duck .....

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## IanF

> Y
> Another example ( punting my own sites now, if I am allowed in context ), is www.autobodyratings.co.za  -- complete web site ( start to finish ) with database integration, and the copy text for the front page -- $135.


Dave
Good concept but not good to view in firefox. Will the $135 cover fixing this? I do not know how to do websites so this is a layman's view.

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## daveob

> Dave
> Good concept but not good to view in firefox. Will the $135 cover fixing this?


Yes, it probably will as I have just given the same coder ( somewhere in India ), another 2 projects. A quick chat with him ( I think it's a 'him' ) on MSN should get it done in a few days.

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## Chatmaster

I wouldn't say you get ripped off locally, you just got a better deal from a designer in India. the costing will be calculated very different. My company would have charged you a little bit less than 12k for the site but it would have been utilizing a CMS and would have been Search Engine friendly and fully optimized with ASP and SQL database. I would get a lot of clients from Europe and the US at that price. 

India has been shacking up IT costing globally for the past year or 2 because they are able to go very low with their prices.

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## daveob

Maybe we need a local site that lists the local developers - something like the RentAcoder site, so it's easier to shop around for prices.

That R12,500 utility I wanted, and eventually got for $65, was actually coded in the USA. Yes, I agree about India - I have had a few really cheap prices from that area of the globe, but if they can deliver the specs that I gave, then why not use them ?

Overall, I have done 100+ projects through RAC and stopped asking locals to quote after the first 10.

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## Chatmaster

I know of a few companies locally that actually make use of RAC to do their web designs and then charge local fees for it. It is cheaper and safer than to employ locally.

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## Dave A

Auto body ratings looks like it is done with a CMS I think - Joomla or something similar.

Skin it, pop in some plug-ins. Done.

Now it's the hard yards - content! And I have no doubt this is where Chatmaster is worth his price tag. Especially if you're looking for something in sync with the SA psyche and the major search engines.

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## daveob

Well, since it is a non-profit Public Service web site, hopefully readers here will promote the site to friends as well.

I'll post a bid on RAC for SEO work on the site and see what it's going to cost.

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## Chatmaster

> Auto body ratings looks like it is done with a CMS I think - Joomla or something similar.


Yah, that was my first thought as well and I think you are correct, but based on the query strings it doesn't seem to be Joomla. The Joomla query strings are more search engine friendly. But I agree that it seems to be something similar. 

I would seriously recommend that you ask the designer to do some mod-rewrite, that is if you want good search engine rankings.

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## Dave A

> I'll post a bid on RAC for SEO work on the site and see what it's going to cost.


That should be interesting. The really fun part will be evaluating the bids, though.

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## daveob

OK. I have just posted the bid request. I'll give you feedback when done.

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## Chatmaster

Just a note. India has amongst the world's best SEO's in their midst, but they also have some of the worst. On our SEO forum we have several members from India that are really worth while. Another thing to keep in mind when you ask for a quote on SEO, is if it is a site that are not within a competitive industry, e.g. "panel beater in Edenvale" this should mainly include initial keyword research, correcting the current on page factors, addition/modification of content and initial link building like directory listings etc.

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## Dave A

This is why I reckon evaluating the bids is going to be the tough part of this. With website design you can see the results immediately. The effects of SEO are less obvious.

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## Chatmaster

SEO can be a real money waster if you do not deal wit the right people. I see so many web design companies locally offering SEO as part of their service, even saw advertising agencies offering it to. Then when you contact them they actually meant SE advertising on Google ad words.

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## Dave A

> Then when you contact them they actually meant SE advertising on Google ad words.


They must keep it up. That's how this site is funded  :Big Grin:

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## Chatmaster

Sorry for being serious about this topic but the problem is that those experts that are really worth their bucks have to deal with the damage made to the SEO industry's reputation. Although I do not provide SEO services myself it is very frustrating when training people in online marketing to see how they have been mislead by SEO add-on services and so called SEO companies.

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## RKS Computer Solutions

SEO needs to be researched by the site owner and applied to his site with knowledge gained by experience, don't ever pay for SEO!!!

ps...  I know a great web-designer, CMS sites for R2500, if anyone wants the details, PM me

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## Dave A

> don't ever pay for SEO!!!


This could get the party started  :Stick Out Tongue: 

It's OK to hire someone to put together a CMS site, but not to hire someone for the SEO  :Confused:

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## Chatmaster

> don't ever pay for SEO!!!


Riaan, sorry to disagree with you here. I would rather suggest that there are levels required for SEO to be done on your website.

First of all, SEO is not a simple task, you need both technical, marketing and experience to be an SEO. Very few site owners actually have the time or ability to have an understanding of SEO. 

On the surface SEO seems simple and easy, but it is far from it. I would recommend to site owners to do only this little bit.

Research your competition online, if you do not know how simply ask on any SEO forum and they will quickly tell you. 

If you are targeting SA only results SEO could be a simple task. At least get an SEO involved with evaluating the basic site design and hosting to ensure that the basics are correct. This SEO should also make recommendations on the keywords that should be targeted. This will mean that you pay a once of fee and that is it. Thereafter you simply maintain frequent updates, maintain the integrity of the original SEO review and frequent content additions based on how competitive your keywords are.

If you are targeting the global market and competitive keywords. Rather outsource your SEO, there is no chance in hell that you will be able to compete man alone. SEO in the global market is a whole different ballgame and is so technical you need several years of experience and contacts within  the SEO industry to even stand a chance to rank for targeted 3 word phrases.

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## RKS Computer Solutions

ok, maybe my wording was wrong, and in afterthought, I'm glad Roelof didn't take me on anymore than he did  :Smile:  maybe Chathead took the night off...  :Big Grin:   :Big Grin: 

Let's change my wording:  *Never pay money for SEO services which cannot prove themselves and seems to good to be true.*

I still stand by my point that SEO starts with the owner/admin of the site, there is no point in hiring someone to do your SEO if you are unable to give clear examples of what you want to achieve with SEO and for the purpose of your site.  Unless you are willing to spend a fortune on paying your SEO guru a research fee to go do research on all your competitors, gather information on your target market and decide for you where your company wants to go, I can't see why the owner wouldn't do this research himself.

In any business, there are certain points which you have to research and gather information on, before you can make an informed decision on whether or not your business is viable.  These should include at least some basic ideas on the presentation of your company, which should be portrayed by your website and thus form the basis of your start to internet glory.

Stupid but simple example, I didn't go and call my company Joe Soap's Little Helpers, because that is not what my company represents and certainly not what I want to portray to the public.  Thus, RKS Computer Solutions portrays the name of my company, says what the company deals with, and bringing in the simpleminded beginning to seo (owner/admin research / info gathering) my website is located at http://www.rkscomputersolutions.co.za and not at http://www.joe-soap-little-helpers-g...-help-with.biz

.co.za point to SA site, to do with computers and solutions thereof.
.biz joe soap is going to have one hell of a time getting market specific customers to his site based purely on his website name, hopefully based in their search area, and hoping to heck his offering is something which would actually help them.

Yup, I agree, keyword,metatags,decent urls, all the rest can make any site name stand out from the crowds on certains SERPS, but when relevancy comes into play, you'd be disadvantaged right from the moment your purchase your domain name...

I never proclaimed myself an SEO expert, but Roelof I hope you agree with me that I have proven myself in previous posts regarding web design and so forth...

*I will take your word on SEO any day above some of the other muppets out there*, but doing my own reseach as owner/admin of my site on SEO, has given me a distinct advantage I belief:  *One of learning from my own mistakes and growing and learning from them.*

I was devistated when my webhost lost my .com domain, but after getting the online shop (most important) backend sorted on the new .co.za domain, and going through points learned from getting my .com domain on SERPS, I had a hit to my shop which came from Google within 3 days of letting them know I was back online, and following the ref link, I was #1 listed in Google for the keyword, specific to one of my products, which brought a new customer (4k sale) directly to where he wanted to be...

I agree that SEO is not easy, that there are different levels to SEO and that you need multiple backgrounds to be able to do SEO to a industry based standard.  But everything I know about SEO today has been self taught, research, research, research, o and more research.  You yourself posted in another thread regarding a well respected SEO making an elimentary mistake in his posting, and you wondering if you should take him on about his mistake.  Go for it!  Self-obtained knowledge is what drives us to be better at what we do, and if we do not use our own knowledge, what worth do we have for the world?

_**This is not a personal attact on anyone, just the comments of a hothead who believes in working hard for something you believe in and not wasting money on unscrupilous members of society whose only purpose in life is to get your money and not offer you anything in return**_

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## Chatmaster

Riaan, make no mistake. I respect you in terms of your knowledge of SEO, I am sure that you will teach many people a thing or two. I would hardly ever disagree with you because you are always spot on with your SEO advice. I think this time I just had to voice my difference in opinion.

But you just opened the can of Chathead and I need to get this off my chest!

Since I started training people in online marketing I have noticed that in general there are different reasons why business owners simply do not rate the Internet as a priority. 

In terms of South Africa I am so deeply disappointed in the general opinion about the Internet and the use of it as a marketing tool that it is actually driving me crazy! Most people are so thick about SEO and the power it has that they simply argue that the Internet is just hype or has never worked before. They often refer to the .com bubble as if to say, "See, it doesn't work". Never once did they open their minds to the possibility that they might be the ones making the mistakes.

A further factor is the absolute poor training provided by some in my industry. I am really holding back but would love to say their names, however it wouldn't be fair to them. These monkeys train people in order to make money and sell their own products during training. But their training is loaded with nice to know stuff but lack the real understanding of Internet marketing. So in the end you sit with delegates that were truly impressed by the performance but they do not realize that once they wish to start applying their new found knowledge, they actually learned nothing. The end result is confusement and loss of trust in the Internet as a marketing tool because it is simply to complicated.

So to get back to what you have said, you are correct in saying that the site owner is ultimately responsible, and that is absolutely true. But the problem is that the site owner often is the business owner relying on conventional marketing to maintain his business growth. Yes conventional marketing is still the main stream marketing method used by most. The web is a nice to have and a billboard on the Internet and that is all it is. 

Their focus is to ensure that they grow their business with their local newspaper ads and pamphlets and to actually manage their business. This is exactly where the problem is. They are uninformed and completely internet stupid. They read articles written by authors and copywriters and completely respect every word they say without stopping for one second and think... Has this guy ever done Internet marketing? Has this guy ever done SEO in his entire life? Do yourself a favor, think of the most prominent people in SA in terms of Internet Marketing and SEO. Who are the people that are interviewed on TV, Radio and newspapers. Who are the people that are blindly followed by everyone in the industry. Then go and look at their background, many of them are authors, journalists etc. They actually have no experience in the field, but they are treated like experts! I often read their blogs and are amazed by the stupidity of the public to actually believe or respect what they read. Is South Africans really so ignorant? This country is one of the easiest country for any perception manager in the world! It is simply amazing.

The moment people start talking Internet, IT and SEO most people are completely overwhelmed and filled with respect for the outstanding knowledge they acquire from these copywriters. I find it amazing to say the least. I am the worlds poorest copywriter and my English writing skills are so delirious that it will make you laugh more than anything else, but at least most of the time I write based on experience.

People are so uninformed that if an IT guy tells them they did SEO for them they have no idea how to check up on them.

Companies outsource SEO and the outsourced SEO is kept unmanaged! Reporting sucks because they simply have no idea what to look for! Every month millions of rands are spent by companies on SEO and SEM. They receive reports from SEO companies that were recommended by those exact same SEO companies! So they have all the power to manage perception in any way they please and the website owners are none the wiser. Why? Because they simply do not care or because they are so insecure in the Internet world they rather avoid it.

The irony is, they just need to know one thing. How to manage SEO! It is the simplest thing in the world to learn. It takes me on average to teach a newbie marketing manager how to manage the entire Internet marketing process, 16 hours! They are able to do it themselves and they are able to outsource it and actually manage it properly without being "perception managed" by glorified gurus.  :Mad:  

The fact that this complete Chathead post is boiling down to. You are wasting your time. It doesn't matter how right you are. Very few people will actually hear what you say, because they simply do not care. Those that care are people like you. People that are making a living online and probably thanking the other idiots for missing the bigger picture. 

Telling them to only do SEO with trustworthy companies won't help them either. How on earth do they know what a trust worthy SEO company is? In their plain stupid ignorance they will simply ask another plain and simple ignorant business friend who they are using. That poor ignorant business friend has no idea he has been perception managed for the past 2 years and the 30k a month he has been paying for that time was spent on R200 worth of work! So the network of ignorant idiots just continue and continue selling the perception manager, lining his pockets with money, thinking it is well earned and the Internet doesn't really work that well.

Sigh, see what you did! It is 2:30 in the morning and I am so upset I cannot sleep! This is Chathead finished with his super rant!  :Big Grin:

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## Dave A

> _**This is not a personal attact on anyone, just the comments of a hothead who believes in working hard for something you believe in and not wasting money on unscrupilous members of society whose only purpose in life is to get your money and not offer you anything in return**_


I like those kinds of hotheads  :Stick Out Tongue: 

I remember setting up this site and wandering around the internet trying to find out how to do it. And one of the debates I stumbled on was the issue of SEO. In particular, it was whether there was value in a particular piece of relatively expensive software that would SEO your vB based website for you.

I can tell you that debate still rages on.... And I think here's why.

A person with a fairly basic understanding of SEO, a few minor code tweaks and some link building work can easily outperform the software product.
However, there is a time cost in acquiring even the level of skill required to be able to "beat the software."
Now what is your time worth?

Just an example - let's not get too attached to it. But here's the point I'm leading to:

The debate about whether to pay for SEO or not seems to ignore the fact that this must be examined from the *client's* perspective.
And sometimes the best thing for that client is to pay the money and get on with something else!

Everyone's circumstances are different.

The only question from there is whether you are getting a reasonable deal or being ripped off - but I think Roelof has tackled that already.

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## Chatmaster

> The only question from there is whether you are getting a reasonable deal or being ripped off


Dave once again a top class post!

Last night (earlier this morning) I made comments that was filled with frustration not towards Riaan, (all but!) but the ignorance of the average website owner in South Africa. Riaan, one thing I absolutely value is difference in opinion. We all have the right to raise our opinions and a valuable one like yours is welcome to an open mind like mine  :Big Grin:  If your read through the post you will also notice that we do not really disagree about anything, lol

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## RKS Computer Solutions

> If you read through the post you will also notice that we do not really disagree about anything, lol


Let's agree to disagree on an agreeable disagreeability  :Whistling:  (not sure if those big words excist and wheter or not the spelling is correct, but heck, why not?)

I agree though, and that is one point you mentioned that I didn't: Management of marketing in regards to SEO is more important than the SEO itself.  Mindsets need to be changed in order for business owners to understand the difference between hard-copy advertising and the internet-connected variety.

PS...  You just had to go and get Chathead out of his bed at 2.30 in the morning and come trash my word count on the post  :Boxing: 


Dave, what would the world be without hotheads?  :Wink:

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## Dave A

> PS...  You just had to go and get Chathead out of his bed at 2.30 in the morning and come trash my word count on the post


That was wierd, actually. I woke up at 1.00 am and felt like some hot chocolate. Whilst I was drinking it, I thought I'd post a reply to a thread. Once I'd posted the reply I noticed Roelof was online.

I was going to PM to go WASSUP, but my eyelids got kinda heavy and I don't remember too much after that.

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## Chatmaster

Yah, I had a very tough day yesterday. I only went to bed at 4 this morning and still battled to sleep, lol

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## RKS Computer Solutions

> Yah, I had a very tough day yesterday. I only went to bed at 4 this morning and still battled to sleep, lol


Roelof, stop talking gibberish and explain yourself clearly please  :Stick Out Tongue: 

Where exactly can I find a "bed" and what is "sleep" ?   :Big Grin:   :Big Grin: 

I haven't been in bed since sunday night, huge crisis came about Monday morning and I've been flatout trying to salvage what I can...  Guess I might find that elusive bed and sleep by friday night or so....  Insomnia is sometimes a blessing!

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## allanh

Read what you had to say about programmers costs and local is lekker if they would not try to rip us off.
I am currently urgently looking for a programmer in Access. Any comments Dave?
Allan

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## Chatmaster

Can you tell me what you mean with a programmer in access? Is it for DBA purposes or are you looking for a VB programmer to create applications using access?

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## Dave A

> Any comments Dave?


I hope you had another Dave in mind there, Allan  :Stick Out Tongue: 

I vaguely recall Chatmaster mentioning a little skill with Access though  :Whistling:

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## Chatmaster

The last time I programmed in Access was I think in 2001! Did Queries, VB coding, Macros the whole tootie back then, but there are a lot of people that cannot do the VB part and will claim they can program in access. Access is very user friendly especially when using the wizards. But when you need to get more 'technical' you need some programming skill! I think I forgot my skill when I turned 30! lol

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## Chatmaster

Oooooh and don't forget relationships, a relational database can be very complicated lol
Just an added note. Access programmers will probably old school or self taught programmers with VB experience. Platforms used by most programmers will be MySQL and MS SQL. I have a suspicion you are looking for a scarce resource there Allan.

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## daveob

> Read what you had to say about programmers costs and local is lekker if they would not try to rip us off.
> I am currently urgently looking for a programmer in Access. Any comments Dave?
> Allan


Yes. 
Don't waste your time spending hours looking for a coder. Go to RentAcoder.com and create a bid request with the specs of exactly what you want. Then the coders will bid and you get to see many quotes all in 1 place, and the added benefit of seeing previous buyers ratings of each of those coders.

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## Dave A

How much of a material difference is there between SQL and Access anyway?

Crossing from one to the other would involve a fairly small adjustment for a well schooled programmer.

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## Chatmaster

I am not a DBA Dave but to be honest, there is no comparison between the two imo. Although on the surface they seem very much alike, SQL is much more powerful, reliable and robust. As a multiple user platform Access can probably handle about 4 or 5 users at the same time where SQL can handle large amounts of users and data at the same time. If you know SQL you can also considerably increase the process time so it is much faster than Access. 

Although I want to add that a lot of people have bad things to say for Access. Access is fine in a small setup. It is reliable and user friendly, but the moment you load it you can compare the difference between a half ton bakkie and a truck.

Just my opinion and I am no pro...

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## twinscythe12332

access vs SQL is a fair difference. the queries may be very close together (SELECT statements, all that good stuff), but then again the way you access them (hahaha) is different. with access you would have a local .mdb file. SQL is an installed server database.  with access you tend to move your file with your project, whereas with your SQL projects, the DB is fixed on a server. not to say that you couldn't set up an access DB with user names and passwords and slap it onto a web-server to be accessed by a program over the net :P. overall, I'd have to say if your dealing with a few MB/GB of data, access is a good solution. a nice local DB, good for network applications. considering that's what I used it for with a program for Dave, I think it does go quite well. but when you're dealing with many people logging in to a website, you're going to want to head in the direction of SQL (or Oracle, if you've got one monster system like a banking one). that's my 2 cents worth =P

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## Chatmaster

Now that sounds like a professional opinion  :Big Grin:

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## Dave A

> Now that sounds like a professional opinion


Trust me - it is!

I just happened to mention this thread in passing and presto  :Whistling: 

Allan - don't say I didn't try for you, mate.

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## Alta Murray

As a SA Developer -- I can only agree with you! I have seen some prices that have made mine eyes water. Personally, I am solution orientated, so if you find something that works and that is within your price range, I congratulate you.  No ducking needed.

Software is highly over-priced & I feel that it has spiralled out of control. And boy, try getting assistance if you get stuck!  To my mind I want to speak to the person who developed the software, not a help desk.  And it should be customized to suit individual businesses....you should at least be able to include that.

I believe that developers have forgotten that they are mere pencils in the hand of the business owner, and that we should attribute to said business on all levels, instead of being a headache and a drain on profitability.  We really are not that clever!

Okay, I guess my turn to duck.....

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## twinscythe12332

As a SA Developer... I would have to say that I didn't go through the pains of tertiary education to get paid peanuts. if you get your solutions through a solutions based company, then naturally there is going to be a certain extra added on. As for the Developer comment... we are developers. not public relations. we are there behind the scenes. for very good reasons too. I don't need 47 bosses all trying to get me to do their "little" upgrade, phoning me whenever they have a problem. that's what my error checking software is there for. I will admit that a help desk is not brilliant with problems. but then again, they're there as an interface. they aren't the ones who will personally tend to your problems. another thought to consider is my language. telling a programmer that there was an error when I converted that string to an int may help, but to someone who is just using the system, it often won't help out much. as I said before, we are in a highly specialised market. a person may be able to lay a brick in such a way that it isn't professional but will keep a house together, this often isn't the case with programming.

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## Chatmaster

I personally do not do any kind of work at a loss. From a business point of view I have a responsibility towards my clients to ensure that I can offer them the best possible service. All my costs are calculated according to an hourly rate. In IT one of the most costly issues any customer has to deal with is a programmer that disappears tomorrow. I would hardly try to look at another programmers coding and would much rather just do things from scratch.

I have seen many times that people utilizing these low cost bid for work deals end up paying again and again for the same work. I do not do a website for under R6k. The client at least knows that he gets a product that works for what it was intended, a marketing tool.

But at the end of the day it is the customers choice. I personally do not feel that local developers are overpriced, I do however feel that the product and service customers should get for the price they pay are in most cases not up to standard.

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## Dave A

Chatmaster - I think the point should be made that in your case the site would come complete with on-site SEO already in place.

Or would I be assuming too much.

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## Chatmaster

Yep, spot on. I only associate myself with things that work, lol

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## Alta Murray

I do understand your point of view completely, yes we are in a very, very difficult discipline and the demands at time feel overwhelming.  I too went through the Ã¢â¬ËrigoursÃ¢â¬â¢, and I started my career working 3 jobs at the same time, doing my internship(scientific) at one company, developing on-site at a different company and teaching. Ever seen the movie European Vacation?  That was me, and not one of the three places ever found out phew!

However, I do tend to think that the Engineering Faculty might perhaps feel more inclined to talk about the Ã¢â¬Ëpains of tertiary educationÃ¢â¬â¢, and I actually know what I am talking about as I have taught university students too.

Yes, developers need to be kept behind the scenes for very good reasons, as you so aptly demonstrate.  Your Ã¢â¬â¢47 bosses with their little upgradesÃ¢â¬â¢ are the people putting money in your little pay envelope, and I donÃ¢â¬â¢t think you need to sound so utterly condescending towards the end-user.  Or am I getting you wrong? Also bear in mind that every single line of code you type every day is for the use of the 47 bosses, surely shirley, they then do tend to become the experts on what is working for them or not.  If the attitude, and it is prevailing amongst developers, is one of utter disregard and a huge chip on the shoulder, then I just marvel at the solutions you churn out.  You are the expert right?  

As you so aptly put it, the help desk is just an interface ( developers will scare the clients off and we need to make money ) but I just wonder how many solutions and upgrades fall by the wayside due to the client being refused access to developers.  I get so much from my direct access to the end-user, or is it the other way around? 

Yes, the interruptions suck, you know how much concentration our work takes and sometimes you lose the whole thread as you are doing your Ã¢â¬ËPR stuntÃ¢â¬â¢, but if you are so solution orientated you take it like a man or is that a woman?  It puts you in a position to evaluate the requested updates or changes, and then you can pass it on to your other clients as well, thereby spreading the cost, which would be nice for a change.  

As for error trapping, you know you write your own Error Messages, and I do hope you donÃ¢â¬â¢t get conversion errors yikes!, and your end-user can read, promise you they can, so I tend to put in sensible English error messages, and when a client calls, I know exactly where to go and what it means.  But I must say we only deal with index problems after power surges/failure etc.so I havenÃ¢â¬â¢t dealt with the Ã¢â¬Ëusual callsÃ¢â¬â¢ in years. Any term in our industry or field can be translated to plain English, so communicating with your clients is not a problem, and you are not their core business, so they are focused on the solution & their problem, and usually have little interest in our jargon.  They just want their businesses to run.

A for adding something extra on Ã¢â¬â I laughed my head off.  And I needed it.  Software is supposed to be a solution, so how come you can charge extra for it? Wait I want to sell you a car, but I am charging you something extra because it actually runs?  How about for the wheels?

Ã¢â¬Â¦..but I do understand where you coming from, I just feel that we are not the solution that we are propagated to be and I base it on years of dealing with the end-user as well.  They are frustrated, and feel they are being overcharged for something that at times is anything but a solution.  The end-user is not there for you, you are there for the end-user.  The majority of developers hold your opinion, so you are not alone. I am the odd one out, and I recognise that.

I just feel that there are so many professionals out there in different disciplines. Being a developer does not give me any sense of entitlement, so I fail to get your point on how exactly we are the only ones to hold a house together in a professional way.

I am amazed to see that you did not get to the real reason our prices are so high Ã¢â¬â people, we utterly refuse to work at the same rate than the hardware and network guys.  They keep on putting their prices up, so we follow suit.  Even I have a problem with that & develop a chip of arrogance on my shoulder.

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## Chatmaster

Alta I need to understand something here. Do you feel that developers and programmers are overpaid?

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## twinscythe12332

Quite true, we do refuse to get paid less. But last time I checked, we're still getting paid. I agree with you. the end user is the one who is eventually using my product, and who has down the line paid me. First of all, I guess I should say a tad about my work environment, and maybe reference my old job. my first programming salary was R3500. after the 3 month probation, I went up to 4. this was when I was in a solutions based IT company. My opinions viewed from this point onward, are mine alone. we had a small group of developers, normally working in teams of 2 to finish off the projects we were given. our deadlines, were normally about 2 weeks to finish a decent sized website. we had a "leave any comments you want" after an error screen was given. some of those that were given were quite livid in detail. 

when we got phoned, there was less of this livid detail, and more "could you please." so yeah, I've been phoned by customers. I know exactly what they think of me. I dislike dealing with them for these reasons. My Customer relations is not perfect. this is why I feel an it desk can bridge the gap. unfortunately, this doesn't always do so. Alta, your ability to speak to a customer will outweigh mine by thousands. you've taught, amongst other things,  so you know how to get a message across... why did you stop teaching by the way? Programmers are funny people. we respond differently.

we have our people out in the field who have people phoning them and giving them errors, and quite often they give some extremely nice detail on how they achieved that error. I get that. We aren't ignoring the end user. I could say that this is a good situation where we have an "IT desk" if you will, and that I get these errors without having to speak to the customer. win win. 
I guess my specific job and company are a little different, since we offer a solution but are not solutions based. kinda like what you're doing, as far as I can see.


I too laugh now at the whole "extra" bit. still happens. people are out there to make a profit, so naturally they would like to chuck on additional extra costs. I doubt a ferrari takes 2.5 mil to produce... but people pay it anyway. I think that when people look at software, they're looking at the presentation layer. if you have some financial calculation program that took 2 years to write, and 5 minutes to execute... do you think most will truly appreciate the 2 years it took to research, craft, learn from the mistakes, get it into testing, find the bugs, do further testing, and so on... one thing I can definitely say is that the techniques that are being used, and the programs are helping move the development process along.

um, as weird as this sounds, what are some of the quoted rates to create a website that performs a fair amount of functionality that you have heard? I would be lying if I told you I knew =/ 

eh, moving on to why we cost so much I guess:
A) we have high self worth.
B) we know not everyone can program.
C) we get paid. (sad but true. we wouldn't be getting paid so high if there wasn't that willing person to do so)
D) we can code wherever. we're programmers, give us a good PC and a comfy environment, we'll code. I don't know, I guess we just don't mind job hopping. coding is coding. if I can get that extra few grand over the hill, what stops me from doing it? 
E) Experience (was not intending to get the letters right =P). for some weird reason, experience costs a heck more. if you get a "newbie" straight out of college, you could probably initially pay him less. he could be a complete mastermind. just remember that D comes into effect.
F) supply.  coupled with demand. plenty of people demand, how many people supply? why do you think Indian programmers cost less, or are easier to come by?

I protect my line of work, not the solutions. if the solutions are so high-priced, must be because someone will pay for them. 

finally, don't worry, the conversion errors was just an example. not everybody out there will know what a string and an int are  :Wink: 

EDIT:
forgot to add in, programming languages fall in and out of favour quite rapidly. legacy will often cost more due this.

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## Dave A

On this "who interfaces with the client" angle - I've got an observation on my own behaviour in this respect:

When I am interfacing with people (negotiating, counselling, influencing etc.), I seem to have reasonable social skills.
However, when I am working on coding issues I become seriously anti-social. As in stay away if you expect any kind of empathy at all.

Anyone else experience that?

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## Alta Murray

Hi Chatmaster,

Are you silly?  I have read some of your replies, I am not going to disagree with you.  Of course we are not overpaid, my fees in a company that can handle it, my Indian blood is showing as my husband so kindly put it, runs up to R 560.00 per hour or part thereof. 

Seriously, yes, I think we are overpaid at the top end, who charges R 560.00 an hour? At our level, that's the going rate and yes the customer pays up.  However, I always evaluate the company first, and sometimes take them on board for free without finding viable data that I can use for research.  I help them grow that's the only satisfaction I get.

Our existing packages are dirt cheap though.

But your prices seem very reasonable, darn gosh it, (keeping it clean boys), if only I knew about you before we went through the whole schlepp of doing our web site.  

I think this just means our advertising stinks!  People can't find us readily, and I am very cautious getting software if advertised on the Internet.  I think we find ourselves in a hard place. Let's brainstorm on this!!!

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## Alta Murray

Hi, I am so, so sorry for being so harsh with you Twinschyte(?) too lazy to check the spelling lol.  From what you wrote I thought you were much older, and when I saw your picture, I felt like a complete louse, with my son laughing his head off at me!

I am very partial to the young bloods in the field, and I feel that for now, you should not interact with the end-user at all.  Your job is on the screen right now, so that you can focus completely on developing your skills and to push yourself to the utmost in your discipline.  Age has nothing to do with intelligence, don;t get me wrong, in fact you young bloods are awesome, seem to be born with it, and we guys had to study what was back then abstract concepts.  So you tend to catch up very quickly, don't worry, and of course then overtake the old dogs!

I still give training, but teaching does not pay and is very time intensive.  For every hour you teach, you put in two hours of prep, as I want the classes to be fun.  And it was, laughed ourselves silly, so I do miss that type of interaction.

Ja, with sofware you are never done studying, just when you are in a comfort zone with coding, along comes the next new big thing, and you hit the books and the lovely words from your mouth again....

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## Alta Murray

Hi Dave,

It is because you function non-verbally when coding, and then have to switch to your verbal part of your brain when interacting. I found it very tough at the beginning to 'switch off' but I am a Vincent Norman Peale disciple, so I focused on the positive side and now see it as a welcome break. 

Truth is that your brain keeps on working for you, even better when you are doing something else, as it is programmed to find solutions,so whilst you interact, just be aware of the fact that you are actually working with your brain.  It's all in the attitude.

IF i get stuck with coding, I go and do something completely different, and I do come up with the solution then.  

What I can not bridge, is that coding has done horrible things to my spelling!! I used to be such a good speller, I could just 'sense' a mistaken, but I am rotten at it now. I think I mis-spelled disciple?

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## twinscythe12332

> Hi Dave,
> 
> It is because you function non-verbally when coding, and then have to switch to your verbal part of your brain when interacting. I found it very tough at the beginning to 'switch off' but I am a Vincent Norman Peale disciple, so I focused on the positive side and now see it as a welcome break. 
> 
> Truth is that your brain keeps on working for you, even better when you are doing something else, as it is programmed to find solutions,so whilst you interact, just be aware of the fact that you are actually working with your brain.  It's all in the attitude.
> 
> IF i get stuck with coding, I go and do something completely different, and I do come up with the solution then.  
> 
> What I can not bridge, is that coding has done horrible things to my spelling!! I used to be such a good speller, I could just 'sense' a mistaken, but I am rotten at it now. I think I mis-spelled disciple?


I tend to just leave the problem, go to sleep and when I wake up, I normally have it solved. Even though it does kind of suck that you wake up thinking code  :Frown: 





> Twinschyte(?)


I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt on that one(does look rather a dodge misinterpretation of my SN). scroll up or scroll down is not too hard.





> From what you wrote I thought you were much older, and when I saw your picture, I felt like a complete louse, with my son laughing his head off at me!


  don't know about that one either... either you just told me my use of the english language is at a more mature level (erm thanks if this is the case), or you automatically assumed I was a ballie(and probably owned a business) would be nice, but no, I'm a "young blood" programmer.




> Ja, with sofware you are never done studying, just when you are in a comfort zone with coding, along comes the next new big thing, and you hit the books and the lovely words from your mouth again....


quite true, but at the same time, someone has to have a huge price tag for maintaining all those old systems  :Wink: 




> who charges R 560.00 an hour?


yeah... I'd answer the phone after 2 rings tops for that.

so anyway *coughs* back to the software is expensive topic...

I think the success with rent a coder is due to the fact that it is like having a whole load of developers all applying for a job. from everywhere on the internet. so you've got your high density programming countries mixing it up with your lower density. so even if some local guy turns his nose up at the money you're offering, there's always someone who will be there to say "hey, that's money"

when you're dealing with just the local guys, you've got that almost limited number of choices. and normally, you'll be dealing with a company, rather than the lone wolf developer. so, everything adds up.

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## Chatmaster

> But your prices seem very reasonable, darn gosh it, (keeping it clean boys), if only I knew about you before we went through the whole schlepp of doing our web site.


To be honest, I only offer 2 packages and it is not that I am advertising it as you will not find it anywhere on my websites as I know the moment I go public I might not be able to handle the pressure once I do advertise. It is build on .net2 with SQL. It is designed on a CMS that we use inhouse. The costing is therefor structured to cover future development costs of the system as well as the existing time it takes to design at a fee of R150/h, I normally charge R450 an hour  :Big Grin:  At this stage it offers free addons like a forum, blog, rss, news etc. It is part of a much bigger project that will hopefully be rolled out globally one day, so the fees I currently charge are based on a much bigger project and existing website owner will automatically also get the updates as development continue. Development are slow due to a lack of money atm but i am trying to keep things balanced.

I just firmly believe that when you charge a fee it is because you are worth it and you never go down on your price unless it is for the right business reasons. People especially in the IT sector I know often mislead others with the true cost of their work, old source code suddenly becomes handy and if you have been coding correctly it is a simple process of just plugging in old code into new projects with minor changes. Although this potentially saves you time you should still charge what you are worth and experience certainly counts to your advantage.

With regards to a techie answering calls and talking to customers, I personally do not recommend it, exceptions can be made but in general, techies has a definite problem communicating from the end user's perspective and vice versa. I believe in having someone that can bridge the communications process to ensure that the issues are understood from both sides.

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## Alta Murray

Hi, Chatmaster(head),

I do agree with you to a certain extent about the techies, however a very interesting new post opened up in the IT industry in 2000.  They realized that they need a liason between the customers and the develop.team that are actually presentable, are very good at system analysis and development, and are nice to look at!  Do you know that people think anyone that can code must be ugly? I was offered R40 grand p.m excluding my wardrobe & grooming allowance + car and entertainment budget.  And that was in 2000!

A resounding NO from my side, I refused to be window dressing, and am too much of a free spirit.  SO here are to us who are presentable and doing it all on our own.

Yes, the fee is high because with experience you fix and blah-blah much quicker, so I guess it pans out in the end.  

Also I was asked in as a special trainer by Armscor to train a lady who held 3 degrees and she had spend a year in training at the Naval Academy in America.  The whole training plan was based with the end-goal in mind of gearing her up to judge the prices charged on out-going projects. Boy, they were overcharged in the past because it is so hard to judge whether you are being ripped off or not. 

Not hopefully globally, when you go globally..... might I suggest that you perhaps start training people to help you out when you do hit it big?  University students are always on the look-out for internships, which you of course don;t pay them a red cent for, as I had several calls last year from agencies stating that their clients refuse to hire the kids straight from uni.  I can understand that as you need at least another year of investment in on-job training that is costly.  but the students are willing to go at it for nothing as it is something they can add on to their CV which really helps them.  It also gives you the oppurtunity to pick only the cream for your own business, so both sides win.  I should just warn you that it is very time consuming and yet again should be viewed as a long-term investment. Saturdays work well, usually, it did for me, and I am glad I did it.

I know I shouldn't be so soft-hearted when it comes to my pricing structure, my husband is always on my case, but I only want to help.  I love the huge grin on your hourly rate -- but let's look at it this way -- when your good you are good!!

I am also changing your name from this day forth -- You shall be known as global master.

... don;t even talk about money and development -- whilst you R&D you make not a red cent, but it is tax deductable, which reminds me the tax man is looking for my 2006 thingy. Hate admin!

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## Alta Murray

Made me laugh so much again!  Naah, no need for benefit of the doubt, I am way too honest for that, just call it as I see it!

Your grammar?  Your grammar?! Now that would never have made me figure you as much older.  It was your argument, so forcefully put and well-thought out, which is only indicative of a high IQ.  Also, your writing comes out in an absolute torrent, as if the words can not keep up with the thoughts, also indicative of intel.  You can be glad you were never in my class, as I would have challenged you, always upping the bar.

You write in a torrent and I can only speed read, so we shall miss each other, prepare yourself for many a misunderstanding I guess, for which I apologise in advance.

Funny how intelligence quickly makes you lose the dreams and enthusiasm in this life, you are supposed to still be caught up in the stage of " Look-at-me-I've just lost my training wheels' being highly chuffed with yourself for making it into the industry. It is a hard industry to crack and your peers seem so happy to just be an insider, and here you are having discussions like an old dog. Good on you,(Wait let me scroll up) Twinscyte, okay very dodgy, is a schyte not something the angel of death carries? 

Waking up with code?  I have dreams where I am actually inside the code, and husband is the same, I do declare us all odd.

Agree with the rest, pick a new topic. Like do you find that developers on average are wild children who never could conform to society?  Love to rate your grammar on that.

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## twinscythe12332

ha ha ha, wrong again on both accounts =/ twinscythe. a scythe is indeed the grim reaper's weapon of choice.  I was destined to become one of the nerds ever since my father let me onto an old DOS machine and allowed me to play the few games on there. from a counseling lesson in which CTI(Computer Training Institute) came and gave a demonstration, I chose my original language (JAVA) and then did a half language in C# (bare essentials stuff, but nice and quick to pick up from the structure of JAVA). 

I don't know about wild children... But yeah, we tend to be distant. We think on another level (which would also explain why we aren't good at answering phones), and often society can be less than simple to fit into. The complexities involved in social science are often lost to a programmer's logical thought. 

but hey, that's my opinion on the matter. And I've already been deemed odd by my mother. Can be quite funny sometimes =P

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## Norri

Eish, I didn't read everything, so I'm mainly replying to the first page or so of posts  :Smile: 

I'm on Rent A Coder and it's very different to how I do business locally.  If you have a good reputation on RAC, as a coder, you can land $20,000 jobs which is great for people like me who don't like doing the whole corporate-meetings thing just to get good-paying work.

However, to get to that point, you have to compete with coders from 3rd-world countries who can quite easily afford to charge $65 for a $1,500 project (by 1st-world standards).

Thing is, you can get cheap labour from India to work in just about any sector where physical presence isn't required.  Does that make local guys expensive?  No, not at all.

The cost of living in India is nothing compared to the cost of living here.  Add to that fact that South Africans are used to "the good life" and you can quickly see why you won't get me for less than $50 an hour while you can get an Indian chap for about $5 an hour quite easily.

The point I'm trying to make is that I like being married, having a car, living in a 3-bedroom townhouse and having 3 cats, a dog and a rat.  Also, those things are much more expensive here than in India.  

So my cost of living is greater.
So I charge more.

I hardly see it as a problem, merely a different choice in lifestyle.

That same Indian coder living here, would probably charge my rates.

The question is, are you getting more or less value for your money?  Well, I use RAC for designs and code too and sometimes I get more value, other times I get less.  The risk involved in finding the right coder for the job is too great for me to absorb so I _do_ prefer to use local guys.

Add to that how much easier it is to communicate with someone in my timezone who speaks the same language as me and who I can kick up the arse if he stuffs up and you'll understand the difference between local coders and coders from India.

Make no mistake, I use both depending on the size of the project and so on but I'll stick to my local guys when I really _need_ results and can't be bothered testing the waters with a few RAC peeps.

I hope I've added some light to the conversation  :Big Grin:

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## Alta Murray

Giggles galore, okay I give up on your name and shall use it as a case in point that my spelling is not so hot -- and I did actually scroll up tsk... what I typed the second time round is closer to a rude afrikaans word.

Please pick an easier name or one shall be allocated to you.  

Your mother deems you odd and my son deems me odd.  As I have been struck by lightning on 3 seperate occassions, my son is now convinced I shall only go down by silver bullet.

Society is all about insincerity and there is no true interaction -- society calls it manners,which to us will not  make a lot of sense, and that is okay.

I started off with Pascal, way back in the day when I could not work a mouse -- I kid you not!  Then moved onto Delphi, then C, C++ and Visual C, and Java.  I find C the true poetry of coding, but in my opinion it is best suited to scientifical coding, whilst Delphi is hot for commercial coding, well, if you know what you are doing anyway. You do have to push delphi beyond its limits to get what you need out of it, but it is the language that was used to let the first man vote from outerspace, it remains a hottie with NASA, so perhaps, just perhaps, they know better than me.  Naah!  

As to Java being a superset of C, i can't see it at all.  Yes, the native language is similar to a certain degree, but I am not a Java fan.  

Whilst the rest of the country are off to a long-weekend, let me work, I don;t do weekends sigh

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## Alta Murray

Hi Norri,

Off the cuff, we are living in a 3rd world country, so you can not claim 1st world standards here.  Naah, I get what you are saying. By the way I couldn;t wait to see a first world country and I was sorely disappointed.

The point is just that we should find a balance between our fees and affordability.  Every business needs software, if you check out business trends and the speed of business it stands to reason that availability & affordability remain key.  Our economy is solely dependant on it's small & medium enterprises, did you know that?  If we come in with a high fee we exclude the very entities that we need to make our own businesses grow.

Yes, I like my limited edition Audi very much too :-) and my Victorian House, but I have to make it a win-win situation for all concerned.  

Software is of it's very nature an evolving entity, so the software we develop grows with the company, I don't think an Indian can provide the services that we do,which eliminates the question of competition from that side.  

My pebble in the shoe is this -- you get a hardware guy that charges R 250.00 just to look at a PC, so how much should we charge then?  The gap between hardware and coding & developing is so,so big, where does it leave our pricing structure and the client?

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## Seagyn Davis

Hi there,

It will be interesting to see how long and how much the end result comes to.

Site design/development, SEO, add ons and time, when you are entirely happy with the end result then we could compare.

I have heard of companies that do CMS websites for R3000, thats crazy from my side, but a case in point that there are many companies/freelancers out there that would do it for a great price which includes everything.

You also got to keep in mind that costs to live oversees are much lower than they are hear - especially if you compare South Africa's and India's IT infrastructure. They are so far ahead of us they are running a cable to us to give us a fighting chance.

Then lastly onto you site, to be purely honest with you, it looks as if he/she has taken a template and slapped it together for you but for the price you payed and the time it took I must admit that it was a good deal even if you must just get a good web designer to make it look really nice.

Seagyn

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## Dave A

> Then lastly onto you site,


Which site are you talking about, Seagyn?

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## Seagyn Davis

I apologize, I didnt read the full thread - so I could just sound like a parrot. I was referring to the first website. I will read through it a bit later and post again if there are any differences.

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## Dave A

Aah. Autobodyratings.

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## Konrad

Sorry to dig this thread up again.

I have been developing a site based on Rentacoder / Elance etc for the last year (don't ask)

Through many probs and changes to coders we have gotten to the point where we are ready (phew!! talk about debugging and beta testing)

The true proverb is that you buy cheap you buy twice (or thrice in my case)

During this time we thought that there would not be a market for a local site such as rentacoder. 

Subsequently we have modified the code to focus on different market (products versus coders)

Having read the thread, it has raised the original idea again of including freelance  services into the site again. (code is al still there)

From your perspective, do you think it would be beneficial to include these services in the site?

From the coders, would it help you?

From business, would it help you having some one local that you could find?

Your feedback would be appreciated

thanks

Konrad

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## daveob

Hi Konrad

To be very honest with you, I usually post each of my projects on RentAcoder, oDesk and GetAfreelancer all at the same time, unless I am working with a coder I have used before. This gives me a greater range of coders to choose from. If another decent site ( like yours ) enters the market, I would probably post there as well.

My point -- I have no loyalty to any specific geographic region of coders, and I have no intention of buying local if I can get a better deal or more experienced coder elsewhere - as a buyer I go for the best bid ( not always the cheapest ).

To date I have spent in excess of some R25k on the 3 coder sites that I use over the last 2 years, on a range of over 100 different projects. These range from really small project ( 2 lines of php code ) to large projects in C++, VB, etc. So far I have not even received a single bid from a South African based coder, so can't comment on their abilities. This does, however, show that there is a huge pool of overseas coders out there looking for work.

Finally, with Skype and the like, I don't see any special benefit in having a local coder doing my work.

Probably not the reply you wanted to hear, but that just my opinion. Any other code buyers out there wanting to comment ?

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## kernel32

Konrad:  From a developer's point of view, the site would be wonderful.  I have consulted with a view friends and colleagues, and all agree that we need a local site to offer our services on.  I'm sure that all these guys would sign up to your site.  

From a buyer's point of view, it's still cheaper to get the work done overseas.  Those developers have lots of people working together to help reduce the overall price.  They will do it much faster than the local guys too.  However, you still get loads of companies that only use local people when it comes to outsourcing development.  

Please keep us updated on a ETA for the website to go live.

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## Konrad

Hi Daveob and Kernel32,

thanks for the replies.

Daveob, another one for you is elance.com, just for reference. I find that most of the "bigger" offshore companies/individuals are registered on just about all these sites.

I have also used these sites to get where I am today. As I mentioned before, there is lots of milk, but finding the cream is hard sometimes. Many of the quick/cheap developers I have used have left something to be desired when trying to get more complex/stable code.

This has mostly been tackled in this thread re time zones and perceived understanding of language/documentation during communications.

Currently the bulk of my "real" development has come out of Canada, with help from Poland. Previously it was out of India. (buy cheap...) This is in no way and indictment on the skills in India, it was probably my naivety when starting this project.

Having previously been part of a team developing software (purely priority queuing development requests, not actually coding) for a local company, I understand the need for having in house development teams for specific projects (sending development teams to site to "fix/customise" code in live environments).

To Kernel32, my biggest saviour when starting this project was the use of Escrow payments. This ensured that I was covered to some extent. We built this into our system.

Our problem currently is that we are not sure that this would be accepted locally by coders/businesses as well as the arbitration process should there be a dispute. (ideally there would an independent body to resolve this so there would be absolutely no biases from our side)

There are some escrow payment companies popping up in SA but there fees are quite steep (3 + 3 % off the top of my head)

In addition we are not sure what the legal ramifications are if we were to do this as we dropped that idea some time ago.

Since there is no local option to compare and receive tenders from locally based developers and this thread, we are considering the option again. It would only take us about two days to configure the system to have a category "programming" with the various sub categories below.

Sorry for going off topic, just trying to get a feel if this would be accepted locally considering the "big boys" out there.

Thanks

Konrad

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## Wineou

No offence boet, but I bet you avoid buying your takkies from Nike for the very same reason that you prefer to look offshore for hungry and grateful coders. In any case it looks like $65 will be worth about R12K soon enough.

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## daveob

Hi Konrad

Can we have a link to your existing system site please ?

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## Konrad

Hi Daveop,

Just taken site out of maintenance mode and posted to quite quotation requests.

Feel free to register and poke around. Please don't be too harsh, still fiddling a bit with graphics and text.

Currently it is set up as a product RFP vs Service RFP. As mentioned earlier, quick to include programming category.

Bit nervous, only had close associates and friends doing testing and feedback thus far.

Oh well, www.needaquote.co.za  :Smile:

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## Konrad

PS, www.autobodyratings.co.za, like it.

I was considering a review site 18 months ago due to shoddy service from many sectors. Just couldn't think of a way to monetize it.

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## daveob

autobodyratings was born after I got rear-ended by my panel beater.

I don't make anything from it ( nor does it cost me anything as I own the server anyway, except for annual domain name renewal fees ) and it's one of a few sites I have that are non-profit making.

btw - if you ( or in fact any forum member ) wants to advertise on the site, send me your image ( 129 px wide x 80 px deep ) and url to the autobodyratings.co.za contact address ( webmaster@... ) and I'll gladly accommodate as many as I can down the left side of the page.

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