# Interest group forums > Electrical Contracting Industry Forum >  The new electrical certificate of compliance

## Dave A

OK. Which bright spark is responsible for designing the new electrical certificate of compliance?

Getting an A3 copier, printer or scanner is no big deal. Even dealing with the old one on an A4 machine wasn't that bad. This new amalgamated 3xA4 page deal is the pits.

Have you any idea what it costs for a machine that can handle these new ones? Assuming there might be such a beast  :Mad:

----------


## Jacques#1

Get yourself an A1 copier (like the architects use), and cut it in half since you only need the one side. :Big Grin:

----------


## 123

> OK. Which bright spark is responsible for designing the new electrical certificate of compliance?
> 
> Getting an A3 copier, printer or scanner is no big deal. Even dealing with the old one on an A4 machine wasn't that bad. This new amalgamated 3xA4 page deal is the pits.
> 
> Have you any idea what it costs for a machine that can handle these new ones? Assuming there might be such a beast


 :Thumbup: 

I just neatly cut the thing in 3 pieces and make my copies for future references. The originals I staple together and hand it to the client.

Who :Surrender:  :Surrender:  knows if there is a law against that too. :Confused:

----------


## Jacques#1

I've got a test sheet that I use to do my COC.  This stays with me.  The COC I give away, as the info is the same.  On the COC I do a computer diagram of the house and the layout of all the electrical equipment.  I print this on an A4 white label, cut out the diagram and paste it in the new "sketches" block on the coc.  Then I sign it across the edge to make damn sure no one can ever remove it.  I scratch every open block, and fill in all the blocks required.....

my test sheet is available on request, for a moderate fee :Stick Out Tongue:

----------


## Dave A

I'm just not comfortable with the idea of not having a copy of the COC on file. Maybe cutting it into three pages is the answer - certainly a lot easier than cutting an A1 machine in half  :Stick Out Tongue: 

It took me 10 minutes to figure out how the problem could have been solved at the design stage - have a COC for new installations and extensions, and a "test and repair only" certificate. 

And there's a bonus going this route. I've raised the problem before of new connections being made based on a test only certificate - this way with a little education suppliers would know to look for a new installation certificate. It would help identify where new installations are being put in without the general supervision of an accredited person.

----------


## murdock

paper paper paper paper....more trees and more trees and more trees not that that anyone really gives a sh#t about green house effects etc...but there is a thing called a computer with emails and printers and pdf printer for emailing etc etc 

why on earth doesnt someone sit and computerise the coc so that we can use our cellpnones or laptops or like fluke and megger have done bought out software which collects all the data from the mutlifunction installation tester and transfers it to the computer.

----------


## Dave A

> paper paper paper paper....more trees and more trees and more trees


That's what bugs me the most. This new format makes scanning to keep an electronic record a real problem.

----------


## murdock

i suppose when you call  031 3111 111 and ask basic questions...not technical questions and you first have to listen to hello in 9 official langauges
then get sent from person to person...and when you do get thru to the person who thinks they are the correct person to help you...you can understand why we are where we are in the electrical field...this being the supplier of electricty in durban...you can also understand why we have serious load shedding issues and power shortages.

i dont believe these people are as dumb as they make out to be...i think it is just to get you worked up.

the other day i got to a point where i decided to rather drive there and sort out the problem...while waiting the telephone just rang and rang...nobody answered it...so i got up and asked the 2 women who where sitting next to the telphone why they didnt answer the phone...their reply "we are busy with customers at the counter so we cant answer the telephone"... no comment

today again i had to deal with these people...i decided not to get worked up and gave all the details to the customer and told them to sort out their own problems with the durban electricity department 2 hours later i got  a call back from the customer who apologised they didnt realise what i have to go thru every time have to deal with these people.

i believe this is management issue.

----------


## Sparks

It all boils down to people who cannot think further than their noses...

*Balance removed as needlessly offensive*

----------


## mikilianis

Now you are getting personal

----------


## Sparks

It is personal. I am an Accredited Electrician and look what has been done to my industry. I go to bed knowing someone and their family are safe because of my effort. Look at what I must do to be legal, yet, the government makes matters worse rather than better. If that is not shortsited it must be stupidity. My COC is issued free of charge, the time spent inspecting premises is paid for whereafter a quote is submitted for the repairs required to bring the installation up to standard. The COC is certification that everything is compliant(broadly a gaurantee) how can this be charged for. Look how long it takes to complete the COC, not to mention entering all the data on the PC for record keeping. Why can we not get a editable printable document and do everything on the PC once and then just have a template for the installation details. We all have registration numbers. Why not use our registration numbers and add 6 digits which we can then consequently allocate to each COC we issue. I better stop now there is too much that is wrong.

----------


## bret owen beets

u do realise each one has a serial no. which the e.c.b. keeps on reckord

----------


## Sparks

You must be joking!

----------


## Dave A

> We all have registration numbers. Why not use our registration numbers and add 6 digits which we can then consequently allocate to each COC we issue.





> u do realise each one has a serial no. which the e.c.b. keeps on reckord


I've got to say with Spark's idea the origon of the COC would still be traceable. The downside is it would also be more vulnerable to fraud.



> Why can we not get a editable printable document and do everything on the PC once and then just have a template for the installation details.


This *really* would be pretty cool  :Cool: 

Yeah, I know the idea poses some challenges, but I'm sure with some careful thought they could be overcome.

----------


## bothajj2

Murdock, I've created an electronic CoC which is approved by the ECA and now they are using it to develop an online electronic CoC system.

----------


## Leecatt

> OK. Which bright spark is responsible for designing the new electrical certificate of compliance?
> 
> Getting an A3 copier, printer or scanner is no big deal. Even dealing with the old one on an A4 machine wasn't that bad. This new amalgamated 3xA4 page deal is the pits.
> 
> Have you any idea what it costs for a machine that can handle these new ones? Assuming there might be such a beast


Hi Dave,
I photograph all faults found during an inspection, and again after repair, and they get kept in the customers personal folder on the PC. 
I also photograph the eventual COC and keep that in the same folder.
I also have a inspection sheet which I keep in a hardcover file under the address.
Lots of records but who knows when it may be necessary to relate to it.

----------


## Dave A

Ultimately my gripe was the failure to consider the practical considerations of keeping a copy on record when the 6 page COC was designed.




> I also photograph the eventual COC and keep that in the same folder.


 :Hmmm:  So what happens when you have to print a copy for someone? Is it readable printed on an A4 sheet?

----------


## murdock

> I've got to say with Spark's idea the origon of the COC would still be traceable. The downside is it would also be more vulnerable to fraud.
> 
> This *really* would be pretty cool 
> 
> Yeah, I know the idea poses some challenges, but I'm sure with some careful thought they could be overcome.


"vunerable to fraud"...not if it was done how it should be...a copy sent to the DOL to be kept on record...stored by contractor...so if there are complaints about a contractor...an investigation into all cocs issued by the contactor can be opened...if there is a trend of misconduct...his/her license can be suspended...then people cant say that a particular person or dol inspector is targeting a contractor...most of us make the odd mistake...and if you dont make mistakes you would be at the top of my list to start random checks...i was listening to a contractor shouting off his mouth about how great he is and all his work is perfect...just listening to him whine on about everyone elses work and how great his work is...i picked up that he doesnt keep up to date with the latest ammendment...for one thing...it is people like him that i would insist that all inspectors at retested at least every 5 years and make it compulsory to attend a refresher course at least every 2 years to keep up to date with the latest changes...which will give the inspector credits...no credits...no license...plain and simple....there are too many old school master electricians who dont even own the latest regulations yet are still classified as master electricians...and as a patient in an operating theatre would be a little nervous knowing they signed over the coc for the theatre i was a bout to have my heart bypass...or brain surgeory.

----------


## murdock

when you use a fluke 1653...all the results are recorded on a the meter which can be downloaded to a pda...ipad...laptop...etc then printed and i believe fluke and megger both have this facility...which i beleive all inspectors should be using...it proves that all the tests where actually done and at what time etc...i am sure you would find there will still be cheats...but you could monitor their results by the time between tests...the problem is a fluke 1653b for example...will set you back around R30 000...you want to stop all the fraud which is going on at the moment...half job inspections which are being done...this would be a step in the right direction.

----------


## Sparks

Nice simple solutions Murdock, they are always the best ones. Problem is getting them implemented. Not as easy. At the end of the day you still need the monkeypality to re-instate their inspectors and check whether there are COCs for the houses they are supplying power to. There are by-laws which state that there must be a valid COC for each installation connected to their supply. I am surprised they have not done it yet because they stand to make a lot of money out of reconnecting the installations they have disconnected due to lack of COC. DOL will never get around to appointing inspectors to check for that.

----------


## Leecatt

> Ultimately my grip was the failure to consider the practical considerations of keeping a copy on record when the 6 page COC was designed.
> 
> 
>  So what happens when you have to print a copy for someone? Is it readable printed on an A4 sheet?


Actually I have never been asked to supply a copy. The person who pays for the certificate on the day gets the original. My "photo" copy is for my use as defence in a legal wrangle and can be produced upon a laptop if necessary.
I think that if anyone called me up and told me that they have lost their original then I think I would be expecting to be paid for a re inspection for the new certificate, to be quite honest.

----------


## Rgee

there is a computerised pdf version available, it works great and you can mail it to the cliient with a signature, then you always have a copy of the coc. The Western Cape Inspection authority supply these at thee same cost with individual coc numbers

----------


## Dave A

We're now on the ECBSA eCOC system and I have to say it satisfies the wish list that came up in this thread. Just great to produce a product that's all typed up instead of hand written.

----------


## ians

Now they just need to teach the inspectors how to fill out the COC.

Reading through one yesterday, which was issued on tuesday, the inspector has no idea how to fill it out or just doesnt care like most of us, knowing  there is no repercussion for what you write on them.

I am yet to find a customer who is willing to waste the money of paying for an investigation. They normally just instruct me to fix and make it right. I am not complaining because it is just more work for me. Then again as i have heard before on this forum, if you are stupid enough to rely on the sellers to issue a COC then unfortunatey you must suffer the consequences.

----------

