# Regulatory Compliance Category > Labour Relations and Legislation Forum >  Metals Industry strike - my take

## Justloadit

COSATO and NUMSA are creating so much damage with their unrealistic demands, that it makes me think of an analogy as follows :-

This would be a great cartoon for 'Zapiro'

Imagine there is this wooden ship floating down the river, it is powered by a steam engine, the steam engine is used to power this boat up and down the river. Inside this ship it has paying customers, and in the cargo bay there are goods being transported. 

The captain is our president, surrounded by his wives, not caring about what is going ob below deck. The unions are beating the customers, and ransacking the goods, and are manning the steam engine. Since there is no fuel on board, as it was not loaded at the port, the unions are busy stripping the ship from the inside supporting rafters to fuel the steam engine while it chugs along the river. 

We all know what is going to happen next, don't we once there is a big hole in the bottom of the hull.

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adrianh (23-Jul-14), OdetteBK (31-Jul-14)

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## desA

Add in the wood borers chewing the timber. A swarm of locusts has just set up home. Wasps have begun making nests.

The painters keep painting water onto the timbers to halt the borers, locusts & wasps - as the budget is not there for bug-killer & varnish.

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adrianh (23-Jul-14), OdetteBK (31-Jul-14)

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## Dave A

These strikes are incredibly destructive. I heard today that Amplats is intending to sell some of their shafts.

The workers had better hope they don't get bought by the asset strippers that have been the end of quite a few mines already.

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adrianh (23-Jul-14)

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## IanF

Here is a blog post from America

UNIONS—-DO THEY PROTECT OR DESTROY JOBS ?

The conclusion is:



> This blog is not to be misunderstood as anti-union, but an eye opening comment as to what has happened, and is now happening as you read this little story. This is REALITY. As I did, take a few moments and think back to any and all BIG BUSINESSES that you grew up with, if they are gone (in most cases they are) ask yourself why and draw your own conclusions. While unions are good for workers, they MUST realize where they ultimately will hurt those they represent and act accordingly (this is for the benefit of all). JUST THINK ABOUT IT. For all those that think unions are declining because of the fall of percentages from 20%+ down to 12%, think again. The 12% is based on a much larger population that when their numbers were 20%, plus their dues are much higher. So if anything they are much stronger and that is why they never defend their lower percentage. SMART LIKE A FOX. Can’t we all just get along ?


So the unions are strong in America they have destroyed large industries it looks like we are heading the same way with our mines and other large employers. I see Escom being broken up it smaller parts because of the unions and destructive effect of BEE and AA.

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## desA

A fair amount of gimme syndrome appears to be at work. So incredibly destructive.

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## IanF

> Johannesburg - The main employer body in South Africa's metals and engineering federation has accepted a government proposal to raise wages by as much as 10 percent, it said on Tuesday, raising hopes of an end to a strike by more than 200,000 workers.
> 
> The Steel and Engineering Industries Federation of South Africa said unions led by the National Union of Metalworkers of South Africa have until Friday to accept the offer. - Reuters


From IOL website

Lets hope this ends this strike. Nice time to be selling automation equipment for factories.

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desA (22-Jul-14)

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## tec0

There is a second side to this story, consider how much money was “lost” during the strikes.

I stand to be corrected I think it was a couple of hundred million rand? 

Anyhow if they said “OK” here is your money wouldn’t that have been cheaper less damaging and perhaps healthier for our economy?

I mean seriously these people are asking for very little money if you start calculating the overall profits. 

Obviously a small business owner cannot afford it but someone with a 700 million+ profit surly can.   

Consider that most of these mega corporations have been functioning in this country for more than 20 years. (much more)

How many BILLIONS have they made over the years? I mean if it is not profitable why continue? 

Also consider that minimum income in first world countries VS South Africa. If these companies are to let’s say start a mine in Australia then they will have to go by the Australian law of minimum income right? 

So will that cost them more money or less money to do? Considering Australia has a healthy economy and there minimum income is MUCH higher than our own...    

Truth is our rand is weak and our labour is cheaper than anywhere else in the world. 

YES if you earn Rands and pay people in Rands it is difficult. BUT if you get paid in first world money and convert that to our money it is almost nothing. Why because the rand has no real value.

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## Justloadit

> Anyhow if they said “OK” here is your money wouldn’t that have been cheaper less damaging and perhaps healthier for our economy?


So what will then stop them from demanding a 100% increase next time?
After all business makes profit,  so rather give it to the employees because the employees made it work, f..k the investors who put the money in the first place to make the mines a viable business, they have no right for return on their money - which means there is no more future investment into anything new cos there is no guarantee on return on investment, cos the workers have the right to your money. Stuff spending money on R & D, stuff spending money on maintenance and replacement of equipment, the employees must get it all.

Anyway the fact that the may be millions of Rands of profit, it must be returned to the investors, and there is not just one investor, there is probably millions of investors in the company, who placed their hard earned money to make the company become profitable and create a return on their money.

What we keep forgetting, is that automation will make 90% of the jobs obsolete, this will create a huge unemployment situation. To prevent this, wages will be lower per preson, simply because of the numbers of employees involved. It is a natural phenomena, the more scarce the resource the higher the value, the more abundant the resource the less value it has. Right now we have an abundance of unskilled workers.

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## adrianh

> There is a second side to this story, consider how much money was “lost” during the strikes.
> 
> I stand to be corrected I think it was a couple of hundred million rand? 
> 
> Anyhow if they said “OK” here is your money wouldn’t that have been cheaper less damaging and perhaps healthier for our economy?
> 
> I mean seriously these people are asking for very little money if you start calculating the overall profits. 
> 
> Obviously a small business owner cannot afford it but someone with a 700 million+ profit surly can.   
> ...


What you and the unions fail to understand is that gross profits are merely sales - cost of sales. The profits shown do not include other costs, accrued losses, nor future expenditure. So, lets say I make a loss three years in a row and I now owe the bank R300K. I still need to buy a machine for R100K next year to replace my ailing old machine. Ok, so this year I get lucky and I show a profit of R100K. This means that I bought stuff for R200K and sold it for R300K. But, the profit that I show is NOT cash in the bank for me to spend, I still owe R300K from my accumulated losses, I still need to spend R100K on the new machine and I still need to cover lots of expenses this year. Profit DOES NOT represent the whole financial picture. All that it shows is that you sold for more than it cost you to buy or produce the products that you sold.

Further, everything that you say about big business and big business in South Africa are merely speculation and has no basis in fact. Where are the facts that support your arguments? We all know that many American and Brits can't afford to own homes. That many Americans, Brits, Romanians and and and do not have work.

Let's look at a company like BMW. They need to alter their tooling all the time to be able to manufacture new models - where to you think the money to do this comes from?

tec0 - The problem in this country is that 99.99% of people have no grasp of basic accounting nor economics. No private business is run for the sake of the workers, business is there to make money for the investors. If staff do not want to work or staff constantly strike and cause disruptions then the business will close and move elsewhere. BMW is already not investing any more money in their South African because their international customers do not stand for the continual disruption of supply. Workers in this country think that they can sign a contract and agree to conditions of employment and wage and then strike because they are unhappy about WHAT THEY AGREED TO. Life does not work this way. If people strike in small business then the business closes. Do you realize that 186 businesses closed in Rustenburg because of the strike. That is 186 x how ever many families that are supported by those businesses no longer have an income because one group of people were simply being obtuse.

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desA (24-Jul-14), gac (03-Aug-14), Justloadit (23-Jul-14), OdetteBK (31-Jul-14)

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## desA

What is needed is a genuine social contract between all parties involved. Get onto the same side of the challenge, instead of ongoing sniping.

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## flaker

now that we're part of BRICS, why don't we have a similar work ethic & similar labour legislation

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## adrianh

You cannot legislate work ethic. I think that work ethic is primarily a function of upbringing and unfortunately the union worker mind set does not make for good work ethic.

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gac (03-Aug-14), pmbguy (24-Jul-14)

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## desA

Perhaps we've become as thick as BRICS?

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## Hertzel

my take:

If you are unhappy in regards to your work conditions or salary the choice is yours to leave. No one force you to stay, just as you made a choice to work for that particular company knowing of the conditions and salary. So why force your employer to pay you more because your circumstances have changed, this is a short-term solution (in any case). We need to continue working on improving our self so we can grow with our needs.

Think about this, if you strike it is no work no pay? However you still need to pay your decision makers (unions), and at the end of the day their monthly share increases so if you lose your job (as a result of job cuts or the sale of the Co.) It does not affect them.

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Dave A (27-Jul-14), gac (03-Aug-14)

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## adrianh

> my take:
> 
> If you are unhappy in regards to your work conditions or salary the choice is yours to leave. No one force you to stay, just as you made a choice to work for that particular company knowing of the conditions and salary. So why force your employer to pay you more because your circumstances have changed, this is a short-term solution (in any case). We need to continue working on improving our self so we can grow with our needs.
> 
> Think about this, if you strike it is no work no pay? However you still need to pay your decision makers (unions), and at the end of the day their monthly share increases so if you lose your job (as a result of job cuts or the sale of the Co.) It does not affect them.


Intelligent people who are able to think for themselves understand this,  the other 90% of people feel that the only power they have is to withold their labour. I suppose they realize that there are many others who will gladly fill their shoes given the oppertunity.

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## tec0

> So what will then stop them from demanding a 100% increase next time?


There is an obvious line of what is possible and what isnt possible. What is to stop you to increase your prices with a 100% or what is to stop tax from demanding a 100%? It is the same question. Realistically the larger mining groups could have avoided everything if they had implemented realistic wage and started with local development "spend a tiny amount of those BILLIONS on things like housing schools a hospital or two. But look where those workers live and what they have. 

But they didnt spend the money and that left an OPEN DOOR to what you see now. I know a lot of these workers not all of them are monsters they never hurt anyone and never wanted anyone to get hurt. All they want is to be able to live. Is that so wrong?  

But because these large organizations left the door open to begin with you get what you get now. Truth is everything could have been avoided. If they have spend 1% of there profits imagine the impact it would have had. 

truth is you have to spend money to make money. They didn't and here we are.

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## Justloadit

> There is an obvious line of what is possible and what isn’t possible. What is to stop you to increase your prices with a 100% or what is to stop tax from demanding a 100%? It is the same question.


In my case, or any business, there is competition. Lest we not forget, we are on the world stage and competing with other countries, and quite frankly we are losing hands down.
In the case of employees, there are many unemployed who wish to work, and are not being employed because the unions are not allowing them to be employed.

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tec0 (24-Jul-14)

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## desA

At some point, does SA marginalise itself on the world stage?

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## IanF

> Numsa yesterday bemoaned Seifsa’s “hasty” decision to make public a proposed wage offer to try to end the strike in the metals sector.
> “The NEC condemned the hasty decision taken by Seifsa to publicly communicate the offer … without affording the union an opportunity and a right to report back to members,” spokesperson Castro Ngobese said in a statement.
> “This flies in the face of the union’s own democratic principles and processes to gain feedback and mandates from our members, the real custodians of the strike.”


This is from the Witness.

I can't help thinking that the Egos from both sides are too big and thus they miss each other. Would the unions ever agree to decentralised bargaining?

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tec0 (24-Jul-14)

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## tec0

> In my case, or any business, there is competition. Lest we not forget, we are on the world stage and competing with other countries, and quite frankly we are losing hands down.
> In the case of employees, there are many unemployed who wish to work, and are not being employed because the unions are not allowing them to be employed.


Job seekers are also competitive and we can add job scarcity into the mix. The reality however we are not talking about a small shop or business we are talking about a 500 Billion Dollar infrastructure that didnt spend any or little money in the local sector. Create jobs business opportunities training social development and really they have the money to do exactly that. But they dont? Why? I mean look at there profits, they are doing very well considering.  

Truth is they didnt spend the money or enough money and now our local infrastructure will no longer function because it doesnt matter if you have a job or not you cannot afford the basics. If money was spend on development local communities would be more positive a better labour relation would have been possible. I mean this is basic social commitment stuff.   

But right now people see hey this company makes more than our whole country can in a year but I the worker cannot eat or afford hospital care but I have a job Any other reasonable mentality goes out of the window because you know the funds are available but they still live in shacks still have to burn unwashed coal to be warm there is no local facilities and they are fighting to survive but you have a job??? And I am not talking about those monsters that killed both other employees and security personnel and police personnel. I am talking about the standard person willing to listen and find a solution. The worker willing to lose his life just to go to work. We seem to forget them in these conversations "posts" 

So what is reasonable? Is none development reasonable? Is going to sleep hungry reasonable? Is no education reasonable? Is poor health reasonable? 

The reality is if there was local development and reasonable job increases wadge increases none of this would have happened. 

It is not just a question of wadge it is a question about development and infrastructure and the basic right to life. Health and safety and self worth. 

But now all of this is to late, the door was left open and bad people got control over the situation. "damage to property, communication failure and violence as seen on TV"

But truth is all of this was avoidable.

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## IanF

> But right now people see hey this company makes more than our whole country can in a year but I the worker cannot eat or afford hospital care but I have a job Any other reasonable mentality goes out of the window because you know the funds are available but they still live in shacks still have to burn unwashed coal to be warm there is no local facilities and they are fighting to survive but you have a job???


@teco if this thinking is the reality for the workers we will never have decent growth and/or jobs in our country.

Just look at your own reality where family members are doing you in, in your ventures. Now you don't want to micro manage your workforce to get them productive and you want them happy and productive. 
An example this morning that blew my mind was the light tube above the guillotine was not working. When I went in I told the operator to go get tube upstairs, but we didn't have one. Then 2 minutes later he comes to me and says the light is working it wasn't in properly. What makes me cross is why is their no initiative from him until you ask him to fix it. They would rather work in the dark. 

 :Surrender: 

How do you motivate workers who show no interest in there jobs or the company?
This is why you outsource.

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tec0 (24-Jul-14)

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## Justloadit

What do the unions do with the millions of Rands they receive monthly in subs?
If they were any better than the employers, they would create restructuring plans to enable their members to better themselves, and as soon as the programs were running, they could approach the employers to contribute. The union bosses rather take the money and pay themselves handsomely, and represent themselves from grand offices.

So who is at fault here? The unions or the employers? It is always easy to blame some one else, the unions have the power to make this happen, but it is easier to blame the employers.
 The last time I saw Vavi being interviewed on TV at his home, I could not help but to notice the fancy couches there were siting on, the curtains on the windows in the back ground, and the expensive decorative things on the side tables, and my wife even commented on that there was no way that we could afford those furnishings. So lets not blame the big companies, I think the unions are just as guilty, for doing absolutely nothing but using their members as pawns in their political battle.

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tec0 (24-Jul-14)

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## adrianh

tec0 - Nobody says that workers must be poor and that they are the scum of the earth. The only way that a business can prosper is if its employees prosper. The difficulty lies in the fact that workers agree to terms of employment and then disable the company from making an income by striking. 

Think about it this way, you hire a maid to clean your house and you and her agree to employment terms. She gets R5,000 a month and 30 days annual leave. After a year she demands R6,000 a month and 60 days leave. You tell her that you cannot afford to pay her so much and that you cannot give her so much leave because your clothes still needs to be ironed. She tells you that she bought new furniture, a nice tv and a BMW on credit and that R5,000 does not cover her expenses. You haggle with her for 2 months and she storms in one day and tells you that she now owes a loan shark R100,000 because she loaned R10,000 from him last month to pay for her car. You tell her that she should learn to manage her money better. She now takes your washing machine, iron, kettle and stove and move them all into the wendyhouse and she sits outside the wendyhouse door day in and day out whining about how cold it is and how you are forcing her to starve. You tell her that she is welcome to go home and that you have 100 maids wanting to come work for you. Upon hearing this she sets fire to your washing machine and says that it is your fault that she had to burn your washing machine because that is the only way that she can get you to listen. You still need to go to work so you ask the neighbours maid to iron your clothes after you collect them from the local Laundromat. Your maid sees the neighbours maid with your ironing and she beats the neighbours maid up, burns the neighbours iron and burns your own iron for good measure. She is now really pissed and starts throwing stones on your roof day in and day out. You report her to the police and the police tell you that it is her right to lock all your stuff in the wendy house, that it is her right to sit on your lawn all day and that although she shouldn't throw rocks on your roof there is nothing much they can do because she is poor and frustrated.

So tec0 - how will you resolve this situation?

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BusFact (28-Jul-14), Dave A (27-Jul-14), desA (25-Jul-14), Len C (31-Jul-14), OdetteBK (04-Aug-14)

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## tec0

> How do you motivate workers who show no interest in there jobs or the company?
> This is why you outsource.


I see this a lot and and I am not even going to argue with you because you are right. You want an employee that can think for her/himself. Second truth is you cannot micro manage "but you do" in the end because you know as I do if you don't keep your eye on things crap will hit the fan. 

I agree you have the right to a good employee that does your business proud. You must retain the right to fire a bad employee and replace a bad employee with a good one. It is your business you must make those choices and have the right to make those choices. 

And that is what I am on about actually. I am not talking about the 1000 employes that run around doing bad things. All my post are about those that have faith in the company and show up for work even when it is dangerous. That understand that conversation and management must happen before things can change. They are the ones I would like to see have a good home, must be able to afford things like health care and all those good things. 

And this is why I say companies could have introduced structures to maintain and help those employees. 

You like myself will be more then willing to help a good employee out if it is within your power to do so. 

Sadly systems wasn't introduced and we have what we have  :No:  and its just not the way to go.

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## adrianh

> tec0 - Nobody says that workers must be poor and that they are the scum of the earth. The only way that a business can prosper is if its employees prosper. The difficulty lies in the fact that workers agree to terms of employment and then disable the company from making an income by striking. 
> 
> Think about it this way, you hire a maid to clean your house and you and her agree to employment terms. She gets R5,000 a month and 30 days annual leave. After a year she demands R6,000 a month and 60 days leave. You tell her that you cannot afford to pay her so much and that you cannot give her so much leave because your clothes still needs to be ironed. She tells you that she bought new furniture, a nice tv and a BMW on credit and that R5,000 does not cover her expenses. You haggle with her for 2 months and she storms in one day and tells you that she now owes a loan shark R100,000 because she loaned R10,000 from him last month to pay for her car. You tell her that she should learn to manage her money better. She now takes your washing machine, iron, kettle and stove and move them all into the wendyhouse and she sits outside the wendyhouse door day in and day out whining about how cold it is and how you are forcing her to starve. You tell her that she is welcome to go home and that you have 100 maids wanting to come work for you. Upon hearing this she sets fire to your washing machine and says that it is your fault that she had to burn your washing machine because that is the only way that she can get you to listen. You still need to go to work so you ask the neighbours maid to iron your clothes after you collect them from the local Laundromat. Your maid sees the neighbours maid with your ironing and she beats the neighbours maid up, burns the neighbours iron and burns your own iron for good measure. She is now really pissed and starts throwing stones on your roof day in and day out. You report her to the police and the police tell you that it is her right to lock all your stuff in the wendy house, that it is her right to sit on your lawn all day and that although she shouldn't throw rocks on your roof there is nothing much they can do because she is poor and frustrated.
> 
> So tec0 - how will you resolve this situation?


tec0 - how will you resolve this problem?

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## Hertzel

> All my post are about those that have faith in the company and show up for work even when it is dangerous. That understand that conversation and management must happen before things can change. They are the ones I would like to see have a good home, must be able to afford things like health care and all those good things. 
> 
> And this is why I say companies could have introduced structures to maintain and help those employees. 
> 
> You like myself will be more then willing to help a good employee out if it is within your power to do so. 
> 
> Sadly systems wasn't introduced and we have what we have  and its just not the way to go.



No Company wants to lose good employees. Look at it this way currently the companies use a lot of money to pay for bad employees as a result of unions (increases, incentives etc... is not performance based its a blanket. So the good pay for the bad.

If no unions where involved and a company treat employees bad or the salary wasn't fair that company would have a high staff turnover and that mean little experience workers. The company is sure to lose a lot of money and will eventually come up with better packages and skill developments to make sure not to lose their good employees. Also if you are rewarded for performance you will be motivated to improve. Like I see it I would not be a performer if I belong to a union as the outcome will be the same for doing what is required and for going the extra mile.

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tec0 (25-Jul-14)

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## Justloadit

As I have always said, if you make yourself an indispensable employee, that's when you will be able to control your life, and be paid what you are worth.

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IanF (25-Jul-14), OdetteBK (04-Aug-14), tec0 (25-Jul-14)

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## adrianh

> As I have always said, if you make yourself an indispensable employee, that's when you will be able to control your life, and be paid what you are worth.


There is a downside to this. If you specialize in one company's systems and the $h1t hits the fan then you are in big trouble. I've been through it. I spent many years programming for a company on their in-house system using their in-house tools. You go up through the ranks and eventually become part of management. Then one day they restructure or get taken over and you are stuffed because you've lots touch with the rest of the industry.

Companies have to keep in step with market demands and as such grow and shrink and adapt all the time. *Imagine if you were the expert typewriter engineer for Olivetti when PC's hit the market.

I agree with you in principle but I also think that one needs to learn learn learn and always have an exit plan in case something goes wrong with the company. The most important thing for me is that one should not only have a short term view on employment but also a long term view that is geared for you to grow and adapt to changing needs. This might sound odd but I am convinced that a woman who knows hair dressing will always be able to make a living but a woman who has a BCOMM may be unemployed. I am not saying that one shouldn't to a BCOMM, hell, of course you should if you have the opportunity, what I am saying is that one should have a failsafe fall-back position.

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## tec0

> What do the unions do with the millions of Rands they receive monthly in subs?
> If they were any better than the employers, they would create restructuring plans to enable their members to better themselves, and as soon as the programs were running, they could approach the employers to contribute. The union bosses rather take the money and pay themselves handsomely, and represent themselves from grand offices.
> 
> So who is at fault here? The unions or the employers? It is always easy to blame some one else, the unions have the power to make this happen, but it is easier to blame the employers.
>  The last time I saw Vavi being interviewed on TV at his home, I could not help but to notice the fancy couches there were siting on, the curtains on the windows in the back ground, and the expensive decorative things on the side tables, and my wife even commented on that there was no way that we could afford those furnishings. So lets not blame the big companies, I think the unions are just as guilty, for doing absolutely nothing but using their members as pawns in their political battle.


It is true that some not all but some "organization for employees" dont invest enough and like other large companies they are yet to create a true infrastructure that will benefit the worker long term. 

I know some not all but some "organization for employees" have "systems" But what is the cost to attend those "systems"? I stand to be corrected but it appears they also are implementing "Screening Criteria" Thus I ask the question will those with learning disorders be helped?

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## tec0

> No Company wants to lose good employees. Look at it this way currently the companies use a lot of money to pay for bad employees as a result of unions (increases, incentives etc... is not performance based its a blanket. So the good pay for the bad.
> 
> If no unions where involved and a company treat employees bad or the salary wasn't fair that company would have a high staff turnover and that mean little experience workers. The company is sure to lose a lot of money and will eventually come up with better packages and skill developments to make sure not to lose their good employees. Also if you are rewarded for performance you will be motivated to improve. Like I see it I would not be a performer if I belong to a union as the outcome will be the same for doing what is required and for going the extra mile.


Actually no... 

I agree the process of getting rid of a bad employee is a long one. BUT I have seen Employers being able to dismiss bad employees with the union present. I have seen this every other week actually.  So yes I dont really understand why people say you cannot get rid of a bad employee. 

The employment laws of our country are strict BUT a lot of people miss the parts that protect the employer. I suggest you Google it find those laws and study them. Go talk to someone that knows the law and pay her/him the money and get educated on those laws because I know for a fact that union members do get dismissed when found guilty of bad behaviour will-full neglect and will-full damage of property and so on.

That said I saw on TV how employees flooded a small business and started to damage the property. Now all involved can be identified easily by the CCTV systems. So that owner can go the the police and those people can be held responsible alongside their union because the LAW say all strikes must be done peacefully. Those strikers broke the LAW thus by the same LAW they MUST be held accountable. 

You dont know it but you are holding a few aces in your hand it is time you learn how to play them. Spend the money talk to a labour lawyer they will tell you what is legally possible what is not draft the disciplinary criteria and make it policy and implement it. 

When you do conduct the disciplinary hearing make SURE you have ALL the FACTS and all are PROVEN as FACT. My advice is spend the money get the facts as the law provides. A good lawyer that specialise in labour relations is worth GOLD so do the leg work find a good one and protect your company legally from bad employees.

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## Justloadit

> Actually no... 
> 
> I agree the process of getting rid of a bad employee is a long one. BUT I have seen Employers being able to dismiss bad employees with the union present. I have seen this every other week actually.  So yes I don’t really understand why people say you cannot get rid of a bad employee. 
> 
> The employment laws of our country are strict BUT a lot of people miss the parts that protect the employer. I suggest you Google it find those laws and study them. Go talk to someone that knows the law and pay her/him the money and get educated on those laws because I know for a fact that union members do get dismissed when found guilty of bad behaviour will-full neglect and will-full damage of property and so on.
> 
> That said I saw on TV how employees flooded a small business and started to damage the property. Now all involved can be identified easily by the CCTV systems. So that owner can go the the police and those people can be held responsible alongside their union because the LAW say all strikes must be done peacefully. Those strikers broke the LAW thus by the same LAW they MUST be held accountable. 
> 
> You don’t know it but you are holding a few aces in your hand it is time you learn how to play them. Spend the money talk to a labour lawyer they will tell you what is legally possible what is not draft the disciplinary criteria and make it policy and implement it. 
> ...


This is all good and well for large companies, but SME's just do not have a budget and time to follow the procedures to the T. The problem is not the large companies, but the smaller ones with 5 to 20 employees, who can not afford an HR department, and to run to a lawyer every second day, is just not a viable option, firstly based on time and financial cost.

I will cite an example with me some years back, I was taken to the CCMA for supposedly unfair dismissal for an employee who absconded for over a year due to health reasons, it would have cost me more money to get a labour lawyer to handle the case on my behalf than to have accepted the so called payout for the alleged dismissal. Whilst I was in the right, I still suffered the financial loss. We can sit and debate what I did wrong or right or whatever, at the end of the day is cost me time and money for a situation that was not true. It also came at a time in which I was at the most financially vulnerable, which hurt the company even more, and when one is in survival mode, this can make or break you. Fortunately I survived.

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tec0 (25-Jul-14)

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## adrianh

> tec0 - Nobody says that workers must be poor and that they are the scum of the earth. The only way that a business can prosper is if its employees prosper. The difficulty lies in the fact that workers agree to terms of employment and then disable the company from making an income by striking. 
> 
> Think about it this way, you hire a maid to clean your house and you and her agree to employment terms. She gets R5,000 a month and 30 days annual leave. After a year she demands R6,000 a month and 60 days leave. You tell her that you cannot afford to pay her so much and that you cannot give her so much leave because your clothes still needs to be ironed. She tells you that she bought new furniture, a nice tv and a BMW on credit and that R5,000 does not cover her expenses. You haggle with her for 2 months and she storms in one day and tells you that she now owes a loan shark R100,000 because she loaned R10,000 from him last month to pay for her car. You tell her that she should learn to manage her money better. She now takes your washing machine, iron, kettle and stove and move them all into the wendyhouse and she sits outside the wendyhouse door day in and day out whining about how cold it is and how you are forcing her to starve. You tell her that she is welcome to go home and that you have 100 maids wanting to come work for you. Upon hearing this she sets fire to your washing machine and says that it is your fault that she had to burn your washing machine because that is the only way that she can get you to listen. You still need to go to work so you ask the neighbours maid to iron your clothes after you collect them from the local Laundromat. Your maid sees the neighbours maid with your ironing and she beats the neighbours maid up, burns the neighbours iron and burns your own iron for good measure. She is now really pissed and starts throwing stones on your roof day in and day out. You report her to the police and the police tell you that it is her right to lock all your stuff in the wendy house, that it is her right to sit on your lawn all day and that although she shouldn't throw rocks on your roof there is nothing much they can do because she is poor and frustrated.
> 
> So tec0 - how will you resolve this situation?


tec0 - how will you resolve this problem?

----------


## Hertzel

> Actually no... 
> 
> I agree the process of getting rid of a bad employee is a long one. BUT I have seen Employers being able to dismiss bad employees with the union present. I have seen this every other week actually.  So yes I dont really understand why people say you cannot get rid of a bad employee. 
> 
> The employment laws of our country are strict BUT a lot of people miss the parts that protect the employer. I suggest you Google it find those laws and study them. Go talk to someone that knows the law and pay her/him the money and get educated on those laws because I know for a fact that union members do get dismissed when found guilty of bad behaviour will-full neglect and will-full damage of property and so on.
> 
> That said I saw on TV how employees flooded a small business and started to damage the property. Now all involved can be identified easily by the CCTV systems. So that owner can go the the police and those people can be held responsible alongside their union because the LAW say all strikes must be done peacefully. Those strikers broke the LAW thus by the same LAW they MUST be held accountable. 
> 
> You dont know it but you are holding a few aces in your hand it is time you learn how to play them. Spend the money talk to a labour lawyer they will tell you what is legally possible what is not draft the disciplinary criteria and make it policy and implement it. 
> ...



I understand your point and agree that getting rid of a bad employee is very much possible. However not all under performers are bad and in many cases can be turned with the proper motivation. It is hard to ignore potential and even harder to just get rid of that potential without a chance to develop. But how can you motivate and reward good and work on unlocking or developing potential when you are force to go by whats for 1 is for all? 


Say the original intention of a company was 5 to 6% increase for everyone meeting goals and 8% for the performers. Now the companies have to increase everyone by say a 10 % and have to give a R500 allowance each month to all employees. How much room is there now to reward performers, or to motivate and develop under performers? Also remember 10% will be the standard every year now. This means companies have to re budget, alter goals, alter projections etc... Delay or cancel possible expansions, developments etc It will be years before we see any job creations within these industries. Some companies are flexible; some not.  Forcing a blanket is not a solution and does not help the employee or the employer.

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Dave A (27-Jul-14), tec0 (25-Jul-14)

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## tec0

> This is all good and well for large companies, but SME's just do not have a budget and time to follow the procedures to the T. The problem is not the large companies, but the smaller ones with 5 to 20 employees, who can not afford an HR department, and to run to a lawyer every second day, is just not a viable option, firstly based on time and financial cost.
> 
> I will cite an example with me some years back, I was taken to the CCMA for supposedly unfair dismissal for an employee who absconded for over a year due to health reasons, it would have cost me more money to get a labour lawyer to handle the case on my behalf than to have accepted the so called payout for the alleged dismissal. Whilst I was in the right, I still suffered the financial loss. We can sit and debate what I did wrong or right or whatever, at the end of the day is cost me time and money for a situation that was not true. It also came at a time in which I was at the most financially vulnerable, which hurt the company even more, and when one is in survival mode, this can make or break you. Fortunately I survived.





> I understand your point and agree that getting rid of a bad employee is very much possible. However not all under performers are “bad” and in many cases can be turned with the proper motivation. It is hard to ignore potential and even harder to just get rid of that potential without a chance to develop. But how can you motivate and reward good and work on unlocking or developing potential when you are force to go by “what’s for 1 is for all”? 
> 
> 
> Say the original intention of a company was 5 to 6% increase for everyone meeting goals and 8% for the performers. Now the companies have to increase everyone by say a 10 % and have to give a R500 allowance each month to all employees. How much room is there now to reward performers, or to motivate and develop under performers? Also remember 10% will be the standard every year now. This means companies have to re budget, alter goals, alter projections etc... Delay or cancel possible expansions, developments etc… It will be years before we see any job creations within these industries. Some companies are flexible; some not.  Forcing a blanket is not a solution and does not help the employee or the employer.


my 2cents... 

Agreed but again there is a solution. Now I absolutely HATE with every atom inside of me HATE 1@b0ur br0kƎr$ but there contracts are worth something. If it is legal for a 1@b0ur br0kƎr$ to use short term contracts then surely the same laws apply to your business and you. But I would recommend you take the time spend the money with a good lawyer get the facts. 

But I think short term contracts are the way to go it allows you to scale down, "dismiss -> [by not renewing] and employ whom you please. You can renew based on factors that you consider important and also it will aid you in surviving our unstable economy. BUT as you said before it is up to you to give your worthwhile employees a proper reason to stay.

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## adrianh

> tec0 - Nobody says that workers must be poor and that they are the scum of the earth. The only way that a business can prosper is if its employees prosper. The difficulty lies in the fact that workers agree to terms of employment and then disable the company from making an income by striking. 
> 
> Think about it this way, you hire a maid to clean your house and you and her agree to employment terms. She gets R5,000 a month and 30 days annual leave. After a year she demands R6,000 a month and 60 days leave. You tell her that you cannot afford to pay her so much and that you cannot give her so much leave because your clothes still needs to be ironed. She tells you that she bought new furniture, a nice tv and a BMW on credit and that R5,000 does not cover her expenses. You haggle with her for 2 months and she storms in one day and tells you that she now owes a loan shark R100,000 because she loaned R10,000 from him last month to pay for her car. You tell her that she should learn to manage her money better. She now takes your washing machine, iron, kettle and stove and move them all into the wendyhouse and she sits outside the wendyhouse door day in and day out whining about how cold it is and how you are forcing her to starve. You tell her that she is welcome to go home and that you have 100 maids wanting to come work for you. Upon hearing this she sets fire to your washing machine and says that it is your fault that she had to burn your washing machine because that is the only way that she can get you to listen. You still need to go to work so you ask the neighbours maid to iron your clothes after you collect them from the local Laundromat. Your maid sees the neighbours maid with your ironing and she beats the neighbours maid up, burns the neighbours iron and burns your own iron for good measure. She is now really pissed and starts throwing stones on your roof day in and day out. You report her to the police and the police tell you that it is her right to lock all your stuff in the wendy house, that it is her right to sit on your lawn all day and that although she shouldn't throw rocks on your roof there is nothing much they can do because she is poor and frustrated.
> 
> So tec0 - how will you resolve this situation?


tec0 - how will you resolve this problem?

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## tec0

> tec0 - how will you resolve this problem?


Don’t hire a maid?

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## adrianh

> Dont hire a maid?


Exactly, I couldn't agree more.

You must never forget your resolution to the problem  because it shows that deep down you realize that one shouldn't employ people on a permanent basis but rather outsource as and when you need them.

For one we are on the same page, well done.

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## tec0

> Exactly, I couldn't agree more.
> 
> You must never forget your resolution to the problem  because it shows that deep down you realize that one shouldn't employ people on a permanent basis but rather outsource as and when you need them.
> 
> For one we are on the same page, well done.


I have said it again over and over and I know you and your friend take it up the wrong way. BUT {You dont even know what you dont know} I am not saying this to pi$$ you off. I am saying use the internet and broaden your horizon because we are in for a major $hit-storm. Get wise! Get smart and keep your eye on the news. 

Make no mistake readers, we are in for a hell of a ride... These strikes and "movements" and public demonstration is only the beginning. As our two major infrastructures a lingering towards collapse we can only hope that the powers that be wake up and get smart. Because we are heading towards a point of no return.

Our government will have to intervene and I hope they do so *wisely* and *responsibly* and *decisively*.

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## adrianh

> I have said it again over and over and I know you and your friend take it up the wrong way. BUT {You don’t even know what you don’t know} I am not saying this to pi$$ you off. I am saying use the internet and broaden your horizon because we are in for a major $hit-storm. Get wise! Get smart and keep your eye on the news. 
> 
> Make no mistake readers, we are in for a hell of a ride... These strikes and "movements" and public demonstration is only the beginning. As our two major infrastructures a lingering towards collapse we can only hope that the powers that be wake up and get smart. Because we are heading towards a point of no return.
> 
> Our government will have to intervene and I hope they do so *wisely* and *responsibly* and *decisively*.



Look, the scenario that I painted is exactly what occurs during a strike. I would like to know how you would resolve the situation in the short and long term. You whinging and whining serves no purpose whatsoever. Do something positive for once and tell us how you would resolve the problem that I pose. The reason that you don't want to try to tell us how you would solve it is probably that you don't actually know!

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## adrianh

> You don’t even know what you don’t know


Here we go again...

The wheels on the garbage truck go round and round, round and round....

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## tec0

> Look, the scenario that I painted is exactly what occurs during a strike. I would like to know how you would resolve the situation in the short and long term. You whinging and whining serves no purpose whatsoever. Do something positive for once and tell us how you would resolve the problem that I pose. The reason that you don't want to try to tell us how you would solve it is probably that you don't actually know!


you have no idea do you?  :No:  Well I will leave it at that. 

As for employer employee relations. 

Firstly establish the types of output you will have “short term products” and “long term products” Then establish what type of employee you need to keep your long term products going and what type of employee you need for short term. 

Long term employees you put on a 3 month contract “renewable as needed” your short term employees I would place on a 1 month contract and will replace all of them every 2 month. Thus they don’t hang around long enough to cause damage or get angry. This will solve your maid from hell problem. BUT remember because you are replacing ALL employees training will be a constant and your output will vary. So there is an upside and a downside. 

The 3 month contract or “long term employee” will be given more responsibility “or less” depending on your needs BUT you will have to handle all sensitive documentation, funds and day to day problems as you will have no real “team leader” as your long term employees are not permanent. 
Upsides are you can hire and fire at your heart’s content by simply not renewing contracts. No disciplinary action needed it is for the most part clean. 

BUT I would employ a labour lawyer to get your fine print ready and make sure you are within the letter of the law. This is not optional as a bad contract can cost you and your company. So if you do it, do it right. 

Again I am not a fan for outsourcing as you and your company will be dependant and that may or may not work. 

What I am doing now is, I do all the work myself and only higher a person from month to month as needed. Because the scale of what I do can vary. 

That said one last thing, if everyone is expendable don’t expect loyalty that said you get good people that will do their best for their employer so again your own discursion is key.  

Last thing tell me I whine again show disrespect and you can write to the ghosts of times past I will not respond. 

peace.  :Cool:

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## tec0

Just as a last thing, if my company is strong enough I would hire permanent staff in a heartbeat.

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## adrianh

> you have no idea do you?  Well I will leave it at that. 
> 
> As for employer employee relations. 
> 
> Firstly establish the types of output you will have “short term products” and “long term products” Then establish what type of employee you need to keep your long term products going and what type of employee you need for short term. 
> 
> Long term employees you put on a 3 month contract “renewable as needed” your short term employees I would place on a 1 month contract and will replace all of them every 2 month. Thus they don’t hang around long enough to cause damage or get angry. This will solve your maid from hell problem. BUT remember because you are replacing ALL employees training will be a constant and your output will vary. So there is an upside and a downside. 
> 
> The 3 month contract or “long term employee” will be given more responsibility “or less” depending on your needs BUT you will have to handle all sensitive documentation, funds and day to day problems as you will have no real “team leader” as your long term employees are not permanent. 
> ...



tec0 - Interesting but you still haven't answered the question: How will you resolve the scenario that I created?

Come on, use the brain that God gave you and think what you would do if it was your maid sitting outside your Wendy house.

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## Dave A

> Make no mistake readers, we are in for a hell of a ride... These strikes and "movements" and public demonstration is only the beginning. As our two major infrastructures a lingering towards collapse we can only hope that the powers that be wake up and get smart. Because we are heading towards a point of no return.
> 
> Our government will have to intervene and I hope they do so *wisely* and *responsibly* and *decisively*.


I tend to agree. However, I regret I'm inclined to disagree with you as to the cause of the disaster looming large.

Perhaps the thing I find most ironic is the drive against labour brokers. Take a step back and look at the big picture. If the unions have their way; if everything is done just the way they want, they would be the new labour brokers, just far more powerful and paid their slice a different way.

But the big reason why we seem headed for disaster is -

At the moment our course is not being set by workers wanting a better wage. 
It's not being driven by workers deserving a better wage.
It's not even being driven by alleged employer affordability to provide a better wage.
All totally irrelevant.

What we're looking at right now is a power struggle; between rival trade unions, and between trade unions and government. Business, and our economy, is just being caught in the crossfire. And it is abundantly clear that the unions engaged in this power struggle do not give a damn what havoc they wreak along the way.

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BusFact (28-Jul-14), Chrisjan B (27-Jul-14), OdetteBK (04-Aug-14)

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## tec0

> I tend to agree. However, I regret I'm inclined to disagree with you as to the cause of the disaster looming large.
> 
> Perhaps the thing I find most ironic is the drive against labour brokers. Take a step back and look at the big picture. If the unions have their way; if everything is done just the way they want, they would be the new labour brokers, just far more powerful and paid their slice a different way.
> 
> But the big reason why we seem headed for disaster is -
> 
> At the moment our course is not being set by workers wanting a better wage. 
> It's not being driven by workers deserving a better wage.
> It's not even being driven by alleged employer affordability to provide a better wage.
> ...


I am sorry Dave but you are wrong on this one. 

Right now there is a company with over 2000 employees, 4 years ago this company was taken over by an “international” company. There first order of business transfer all existing clients over to their other branches “outside” South Africa and then drive the equipment to the ground here without maintenance and now this plant is facing closure.  

why to eliminate a degree of competition. The company may close down as soon as end this year. "If the situation is unchanged" 

This is but one part of the things to come. 

1@b0ur br0ker$ 

Right now you can no longer find permanent employment nor is there an option for permanent employment in larger industries. Secondly they are a hidden tax on both the employer and employee AND what the employer don’t want to see is the fact that they are also being enslaved because they have no control over their employees and secondly there is no room for negotiation and if prices goes up and you "the business" can no longer pay your company close down. The end... there is virtually no survival strategy. 

If a single set of entities owns all the skill of this country then you "the business" are working for them the end. In the old times this was considered slavery and was so considered for a reason. In short this system isn't healthy BUT due to spite and deliberate action form the employers side this gets overlooked. They are thinking "I don't have to deal with unions anymore" But they don't consider "oh crap my competition can offer to pay more for the skill then I can and now I am losing everything" 

Skill is in limited supply and if you cannot hire them someone else can and your business will suffer for it. With permanent employment you still have a chance to keep your employees but because it is simply to much "effort" people outsource but lets see how this plays out.

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## tec0

> What we're looking at right now is a power struggle; between rival trade unions, and between trade unions and government. Business, and our economy, is just being caught in the crossfire. And it is abundantly clear that the unions engaged in this power struggle do not give a damn what havoc they wreak along the way.


*Hypothetically >* Economic assassination starts with unrest within the masses and slowly progress towards the point where outside investors lose interest to invest. By making negotiations impossible and constant news of damage to fabricators, mining and other infrastructures our wealth devaluate and our exports can no longer cope. This will continue to a point where the entity responsible of the unrest will try to gain power by using the will of the masses. What will follow are protest, unrest and polarization of sensitive topics. 

So tell me have you watched the news lately?

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desA (28-Jul-14)

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## desA

> Hypothetically > Economic assassination starts with unrest within the masses and slowly progress towards the point where outside investors lose interest to invest. By making negotiations impossible and constant news of damage to fabricators, mining and other infrastructures our wealth devaluate and our exports can no longer cope. This will continue to a point where the entity responsible of the unrest will try to gain power by using the will of the masses. What will follow are protest, unrest and polarization of sensitive topics.


Looking at the present difficulties in the SA marketplace, I suspect your hypothesis is fair well set.

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## Dave A

> I am sorry Dave but you are wrong on this one.


I'm sorry. 
You say I'm wrong, and then you make a post that entirely supports my point.
You say Adrian is wrong, then you make a whole argument that supports *his* point.
 :Confused: 
Just where am I wrong again exactly?




> why to eliminate a degree of competition


And there is no chance that the decision is actually driven by the local plant being less competitive compared to their other operations?

Why did they wait 4 years to shut it down?

Is there no chance that if the local operation was actually the better option to trade from, they wouldn't rather have moved their operations here and shut down some of their less competitive operations elsewhere?

You keep blaming business for the mess. Understand this - it's the trading conditions that affect business's decisions in this sort of thing. And a huge part of that is a skilled, efficient and *reliable* labour force.

How are we doing on that front?

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## Greig Whitton

> Long term employees you put on a 3 month contract “renewable as needed” your short term employees I would place on a 1 month contract and will replace all of them every 2 month.


I recommend familiarising yourself with the amendments to the Labour Relations Act since the contracting practices that you are proposing will be illegal.

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adrianh (28-Jul-14)

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## tec0

> Just where am I wrong again exactly?


Well when I say you are wrong it is because you are looking at the facts the wrong way. You are spot on about the rest

The plant I mentioned is being kept in ownership so that competition cannot buy it and use it against the holding company. Also I think because of global situations they may well rethink their strategy and fix the place up. Here is me hoping that this will be the case. 
As for the rest, you know as well as I do that businesses have a large part to play in labour relations and or the lack there off. I am not saying that unions are getting it right all the time but nor does businesses. The systems we see today exist because someone messed up at some point.

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## desA

The more complex the labour laws become, the less that entrepreneurs will want to employ people. 

I've met lots of very disillusioned former business owners who had dramatically downsized their workforce, to one, or two - & even that was considered too much - from a hassle perspective. To take on long-term liabilities when they really are not interested in working, is counter-productive. 

Far better to outsource, with minimal final assembly. In fact, outsource everything, if you can.

Now, how does this suit the ANC's vision of job creation?

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tec0 (28-Jul-14)

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## tec0

> I recommend familiarising yourself with the amendments to the Labour Relations Act since the contracting practices that you are proposing will be illegal.


funny I have contracts from Labour brokers stipulating employment for 30 days? Are you saying they are illegal? If so would you care to share the amendment and when it was made please? Because then a Labour brokers is in for a very very bad day. 

As for my own post, Did I not say speak to a lawyer that knows labour law? That it would be a good idea to spend the money and do it right? For the life of me I thought I did wrote that...




> *BUT I would employ a labour lawyer to get your fine print ready and make sure you are within the letter of the law. This is not optional as a bad contract can cost you and your company. So if you do it, do it right.*


I did wrote it down! for a moment I thought I am losing mind again... Oh well I will scan trough the new amendments I haven't had the time to be honest. 

But if what you say is true there going to be hell to pay because I am currently working under the assumption my contract I am working under is illegal...  :Mad: 

And every single one of us know the importance and value of a legal employment contract!

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## Greig Whitton

> funny I have contracts from Labour brokers stipulating employment for 30 days? Are you saying they are illegal? If so would you care to share the amendment and when it was made please?


The short version is that non-permanent employees may be deemed to be permanently employed irrespective of what their contract states if certain criteria are met (e.g. employee size; length of employment; reasons for non-permanent employment).

I have a more detailed explanation on my blog (here and here) if you are interested.

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## pmbguy

Wow how's that for luck tec0. At least now you can get some great advice so you know how to sort it out from the inside like

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## adrianh

> Wow how's that for luck tec0. At least now you can get some great advice so you know how to sort it out from the inside like


Are you crazy, I mean really, are you saying that one should take advice from an educated person who knows what he is talking about....pull the other one!

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## IanF

Back on track evidently Numsa say the strike is over. Lets see what landmines are still there?
Times article

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## pmbguy

> Are you crazy, I mean really, are you saying that one should take advice from an educated person who knows what he is talking about....pull the other one!


Its a novel and radical idea yes, but think of the possibilities!

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## Dave A

Tec0, at the end of the day you have accurately presented the worker's point of view to this forum (when no-one else has). And it was needed...

I thank you for that.



> Well when I say you are wrong it is because you are looking at the facts the wrong way. You are spot on about the rest


Let's not squabble about who's way of looking at things is right or wrong. On that we're going to have to agree to disagree. There is something far more important to address than who's right.

Whichever way you look at it, both sides still identify the same alarming future in prospect if we carry on the way we're going!

Regardless of our different points of view, both sides need to recognise we face a common problem to overcome.
Isn't it time to start identifying possible win/win solutions? 




> Back on track evidently Numsa say the strike is over.


Four weeks of a declared deadlock with no meetings to attempt to break the deadlock.
Four weeks of strike action, with all the harmful consequences.

Why couldn't this have been settled without strike action?

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tec0 (28-Jul-14)

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## Justloadit

NUMSA wants to set a precedent for the future, in that they want employers to believe they yield a tremendous amount of power, so that in future their demands will be met with out resistance, because they will be prepared to go on struke and destroy business, they are expecting that employers will rather cave in to their demands vesus risking the loss of business.

What NUMSA has not considered, is that business has nothing left to bargain with, in other words, the majority of business are on their last legs, and any mishap is sufficient to push them over.

I speak from my own circumstance, I have placed all my savings of the last 10 years, into the business during the last 3 years, there is nothing left to prop the business up if there is another huge loss, I would rather shut the door than to risk my family's well being. Interestingly, I have been offered employment with remuneration which is more than 3 times what I get out of my business right now. 

I have spoken to a number of other entrepreneurs who are in similar business circumstances, where they have also invested all their savings to maintain the status quo. Very difficult times in deed. Whats holding me back is that some one else will tell me what I have to do every day, not something I will take on easily, having been a free spirit for so long, but the sentiment could change very quickly if the circumstances begin to lean the wrong way.

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Dave A (29-Jul-14)

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## tec0

> The short version is that non-permanent employees may be deemed to be permanently employed irrespective of what their contract states if certain criteria are met (e.g. employee size; length of employment; reasons for non-permanent employment).
> 
> I have a more detailed explanation on my blog (here and here) if you are interested.





> Let’s begin with temporary employees (i.e. employees who are contracted via a temporary employment service provider or labour brokerer). The good news is that you have nothing to worry about so long as:
> 
> Your temporary employees earn less than the Basic Conditions of Employment Act (BCEA) threshold; and
> You employ them for less than three months; or
> As a substitute for someone who is temporarily unavailable.


So I was wrong about everything? 




> Long term employees you put on a 3 month contract “renewable as needed”





> short term employees I would place on a 1 month contract





> employ a labour lawyer to get your fine print ready and make sure you are within the letter of the law. 
> This is not optional as a bad contract can cost you and your company. So if you do it, do it right.


Well I asked my lawyer to have a look at my 30 day AKA 1 month employment contract as set out by the broker. I and about 300 other "temporary employees" are all subject to the same contract so I wanted to know what goes for what. Well it was well within the laws and was told the broker contract "this time around is "standard" But it is good to check it out. 

Because as you said: 




> I recommend familiarising yourself with the amendments to the Labour Relations Act since the contracting practices that you are proposing *will be illegal*.


and yet 




> Your temporary employees earn less than the Basic Conditions of Employment Act (BCEA) threshold; and
> You employ them for less than three months; or
> As a substitute for someone who is temporarily unavailable.


But you are right we must leave this sort of questions to the professionals. Spend the money make sure you are within the letter of the law and your business will be safe.

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## tec0

> identifying possible win/win solutions


Now in my completely uneducated and laymen mindset I would imagine a win win is where both parties can operate safely be profitable and contribute to a stronger healthier economy. Thus allowing for a strong foundation towards health, security, job security and above all Education.

This can be established by reassigning responsibility towards both the employer and employee and re-establish the unions role and responsibility towards both the employee and the employer.           

Have open communications, establish what is and what is not within reason and rework the bylaw structure to allow for more decisive disciplinary actions and if needed planned legal action against bad employers. Thus both parties will be actively taking responsibility more seriously as both can be held accountable.

The biggest problem right is we lack communication and a infrastructure as well as a proper custodian. 

In other to function you need to make the basics work first before everything else can work. 

my 2 cents... 

peace  :Cool:

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## desA

> Justloadit commented:
> I speak from my own circumstance, *I have placed all my savings of the last 10 years, into the business during the last 3 years*, there is nothing left to prop the business up if there is another huge loss, I would rather shut the door than to risk my family's well being. Interestingly, I have been offered employment with remuneration which is more than 3 times what I get out of my business right now.
> 
> I have spoken to a number of other entrepreneurs who are in similar business circumstances, where *they have also invested all their savings to maintain the status quo*. Very difficult times in deed. Whats holding me back is that some one else will tell me what I have to do every day, not something I will take on easily, having been a free spirit for so long, but the sentiment could change very quickly if the circumstances begin to lean the wrong way.


Wealth re-distribution.

You are left to start again, while others have profited from you & your family's efforts.

Is this fair?

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## adrianh

> Wealth re-distribution.
> 
> You are left to start again, while others have profited from you & your family's efforts.
> 
> Is this fair?


Isn't that the exact argument that black people have in this country. The kids were forced to stay with the grandmother while the father was forced to be a migrant worker on the mine and the mother a migrant worker maid?

The only difference is that the shoe is on the other foot.

And yes, many many businesses are going to close their doors and many people are going to emigrate and at the end of it all life isn't fair, but it never was and it never will be!

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## Dave A

> Now in my completely uneducated and laymen mindset I would imagine a win win is where both parties can operate safely be profitable and contribute to a stronger healthier economy. Thus allowing for a strong foundation towards health, security, job security and above all Education.
> 
> This can be established by reassigning responsibility towards both the employer and employee and re-establish the union’s role and responsibility towards both the employee and the employer.


I hear you, and we might have actually been heading towards a situation something like that. 

However, throw in a situation as we're in now with rival unions competing for members and influence - How can they compete without disrupting this fairly workable  scenario?

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## tec0

> I hear you, and we might have actually been heading towards a situation something like that. 
> 
> However, throw in a situation as we're in now with rival unions competing for members and influence - How can they compete without disrupting this fairly workable  scenario?


I don't know I something just doesn't feel right about our current standing. It feels well it feels WRONG. Look I know anger can get the best of all of us at some point but at some point one must identify the "driver" of the problem and in doing so it becomes clear that the problem is really easy to solve but the "driver" is trying its best to be unreasonable and to a large degree antisocial and is actively polarizing masses to take part in mass action. 

What we are seeing now is a political agenda. It is like the maid from hell scenario as seen on this thread. It is engineered to be insolvable and maintain the argument. So what can we do as employers and employees? 

the real answer is nothing... there is really nothing we can do as shown on the news. Intimidation seems to be an active strategy... and it is not within the letter of the law. 

But time will tell the truth it always do...

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## desA

I would be interested in anecdotal reports from Kenya, Nigeria, Zimbabwe, other African nations, post change/emergence. What happened to the businesses of the day?

Answers to these questions may prove useful to business operators in the present/changing SA.

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## IanF

> CEO of Invicta Holdings, Arnold Goldstone spoke to Alec Hogg about uncertainty in SA’s industrial sector and the impact that it is having on Invicta, its shareholders and its future prospects. Arnold provided some sobering words for South Africa, its leadership, and its unions. If there is one thing that you should watch today, it is this interview. The facts regarding labour unrest, instability and ever rising wage demands are simple – SA  is trying to compete globally. If a company’s shareholders will be better served by the company investing elsewhere then it is certain to do that. Business will take their investment elsewhere, as will international investors. South Africa’s manufacturing industry has the potential to be a competitive value adder internationally, but is being handicapped by all the striking. Something has got to give. – LF


Link here

Here is a big company which will start moving the factories out of SA because of the lawlessness of the trade unions. Is this the end goal of the unions that they are in self destruct mode. 

How do we get over this anger of the workers that unions are exploiting for their own narrow purposes.

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## Dave A

> So what can we do as employers and employees?
> 
> the real answer is nothing...


Sorry, but that's not acceptable.

We have to do *something*. We cannot afford to just accept the situation. 
And the first step is to mobilise thinking by communicating...

As Justloadit points out, there are lots of businesses on the edge. Not only does that place the owners and everything they own in jeopardy, it also means jobs are in jeopardy too. And it's not just SME's in this boat. Just off the top of my head:

Lonmin was pretty fragile before the first AMCU strike, let alone the second one. They must be *really* sorely stretched now.Amplats is disinvesting.BMW has decided not to invest in anything new in SA.
And I'm sure there's lots more if one starts digging.

The signs of a fundamental problem is also reflected in our GDP performance. While many emerging economies are achieving 5% and more annual GDP growth, we're at a dismal 1.5% or so, and that number just keeps heading the wrong way too.

The writing is on the wall, and something has to be done to mobilise a change in direction. And NOW!

To my mind, one thing we definitely need is an extra step in the LRA's "process to strike or lockout". I don't know exactly what that extra step should be just yet (any suggestions?), but taking the road to hell is just far too easy right now.

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Blurock (30-Jul-14), gac (03-Aug-14), Sky (31-Jul-14)

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## Justloadit

On 702 this morning, there was an interview with ?Trudi? something, apparently 25% of unemployment worse than previous stats of 2008 - 5million unemployed, and out of that 3 million youngsters. What was being said was something about dropping entry level wages, which will fly against the union demands. To match new job entrants every year, a typical growth rate of 5.5% is needed. We are very far from that at 1.5% and declining.

Once any institution starts dabbling into what business must and must not do is the beginning of the end of that business. Business survives because it can offer a better service at a better price, labour should be in the same lines. Instituting minimum wages and the likes simply derails the system. There is always dangers when there is no control, but in this instance there is over control. Too much control stifles growth, and that is precisely what is happening.

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## desA

Invicta/BMG already obtain most of their products from abroad. The engineered products division of BMG is fairly small in terms of total group turnover.

Goldstone's comment has little real impact on present SA manufacturing. He'll be using this as an excuse for a raft of poor trading results, I'd imagine.

The real impact of the strikes is that Invicta/BMG's customer base is eroding, as the mines begin going out of business.

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## desA

> ARNOLD GOLDSTONE: Well, Alec, you know a few years ago, we looked at the market in South Africa, and we nominated that *South Africa was slowly de-industrialising* and I was taken to task at the time – it was about three years ago – but that was our perception. *We could notice a pervasive lack of competitiveness in the market*. At the end of the day, we are competing with the rest of the world, whatever we manufacture in South Africa, so *it became obvious to us that South Africa didn’t have the environment that would encourage competitive manufacturing, so we started looking abroad*. We’ve publically stated we would like 50 percent of our income to be, generated from non-South African sources within five years. We are currently at about 22 percent of our revenue, coming from abroad, *so we are fishing in international waters for the diversification that we want outside of South Africa*.
> 
> Also, Invicta’s market is fairly limited in the country because we are relatively large, in whichever industry we operate in, which makes it difficult to make game changing acquisitions in our industries. There are competition commission restrictions that would prevent us from making the game changes here, so we embarked on this path some years ago. Perhaps a bit prophetic, sad for the country, unfortunately that we have a big industry, like the manufacturing industry, which is on a slow decline, so as a South African, it is very sad for me to be an observer.


An interesting perspective. Erosion of local purchasing power, combined with a de-industrialing society, is driving Invicta/BMG abroad.

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## Faan

In my opinion the future lies in small business.  I am not convinced that there is much one can do about the present situation except at the polling station and I think we all know how that works. This however does not mean you have to stay away.  Rather talk to the people working or reporting to you to go and vote when the opportunity arises.

We can complain as much as we like about what the unions are doing, but as an individual there is nothing you can do

By supporting small businesses we can grow the economy. We have to support each other.  If at all possible buy from each other and if you do buy do not argue about a few cents in price and please pay. Do not get the seller to beg you for his money.  Many people in good positions will at some point in the future be retrenched and that should not be the end of a career but the beginning of a new life.  Help each other to find an opportunity.

The chances that you will be doing something on your own in a new business are minute and this will allow you to employ 1 or 2 or more people and in doing so create jobs and grow the economy.

On the forum we probably have a few people in the corporate world. I would advise them to start looking around for opportunities and if you are passionate about something investigate the possibility of creating a business out of it.  I am a member of BNI and quite a number of the people in our chapter has been forced into doing something new and they are all successful in their businesses.

None of us in the forum will be able to do something about the union(s).  Let us not put our energy into the unions, but rather on providing a better and more effective service or product to our customers.

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## desA

Time to form the "Formerly Advantaged, Now Totally Disadvantaged, Union"? 

*FANTDU*

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adrianh (30-Jul-14)

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## Chatmaster

Hi Guys

I have to agree with so many posts on here. It is completely crazy. I had a look at the way Africa in general is heading and where SA is sitting in that picture, and in my mind there is no doubt that we are heading where most of Africa has been already. The real problem here is that the entire picture is wrong. From the challenging prospect of just starting a business that can take months to the power that the unions have been given through legislation and political alliances. We need a complete review.

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## IanF

Where to start. 
At the top but realistically there is no chance that with our current ANC, maybe if Cyril Ramaphosa becomes president then yes.

From what I understand there is no secret ballot for a strike vote Letter to Bday unions use tyranny once this happens then the power of the thugs is reduced.

Then we need to get the employees to have something worth losing so they want to protect it. That is get them into a middle class mindset. How business does this is the hard part for us.

Anyway my 5cents.

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## adlomo

I own a small business, with very few employees, I take care of my employees because they are the people who make money for me , without them I can't do anything. This is the reality that each and every employer should have, the employees don't care how much you know until they know how much you care. The  living conditions of the miners in the platinum belt is a reflection of employees who are not cared for by their employers. I will be ashamed if my employees are living in shark's, because that is a demonstration of how they have been paid over a period of time. Which means their conditions has not been improving instead it has been deteriorating. The thing is when you hit the bottom there is nothing else you can lose because you have lost everything over the years, the only thing that can happen is that you must go up , therefore in this case the miners negotiate from the position of strength, that is why they are able to go on for months without a salary but they still survive. Have you ever asked yourself as to how do they survive for so many months without a salary? Can you and I survive a single month without an income? The so called investors over the years have been getting good returns on their investments, the big question is to what extent have they taken into account the plight of the workers I mean genuinely. It is a know fact that the rich are becoming richer and the poor are becoming poorer ,It is also common knowledge that nature does not allow imbalance,so if we think that this condition was to stay like this forever we will be fooling ourselves.Therefore when it happens let us not be quick to blame strikes, because they didn't just occur out of the blue, there were factors that led to it , and those factors could have been avoided,but very little was done about them. One more thing that has blinded the eyes of the investors in our country is greed, this greed has made them not to see the injustice that they were doing to their workers. Unfortunately the workers are starting to be intelligent, they are able to detect if the company can afford a certain level of increases and they stick to their demands. If I was the employer I wouldn't hesitate to ensure that the workers are taken care of by providing decent housing, bundled with other benefits like providing bursaries for the miners children, I am sure if things like these were in place it would have been very difficult for the miners to go strike

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## desA

The point at which apartheid no longer becomes the excuse for present circumstances, is the point from which true growth can occur.

The people of the country need to take ownership of the present situation & determine to make substantive changes.

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Mike C (31-Jul-14)

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## Newretailer

I am going to put my neck out there and give my opinion because Dave asked us to. I agree that the EFF is probably behind the current strikes. What I think though, is that the ground is fertile for them as the workers are angry. I want to differentiate between small and larger businesses. I get that small businesses are not guilty of this as we tend to struggle to keep our head above the water.

If you look at the bigger picture, there is something so immoral about the current situation that something needs to be done. I am talking about directors of larger companies that award themselves obscene amounts of money. Doesn't the CEO of Lonman get something like 17 million annually? IMHO, no human being on earth is worth that much. He didn't start Lonman. He didn't do without to grow the company. He didn't work day in and day out for very long hours without a holiday to make sure the fledgling company grew. No, he went to varsity, did a good job in the work place and eventually landed up there. He deserves a lot more money than the lowest workers, but not that much more. I am using him as example. The same goes for almost every single listed company and government departments.

These obscene salaries need to stop. If I was government I would put a law in place that the highest paid person could not earn more than say 20 times more than the lowest earning person, private and government. I doubt that anyone of us are not already falling within that. I listened to another caller suggesting something like this on the John Robbie show. You know what his reply was? He knew many of these people and we cannot do that as there is competition amongst them as to who earn the most and it is a status symbol for them. If I was a lowly paid worker and I heard that, my blood would be boiling. Heck, I am not and my blood was boiling. We are having people living close to starvation on the one hand and on the other hand we have people with more money than they could ever, ever need. 

They shouldn't only see if the mines can survive by paying their workers more. They should add to the equation what would happen if they paid top management less at the same time. A lot less. 

We are all paying the price for what these greedy animals are doing. Whilst the top people decide their own salaries, it will not change without laws to control it. This greed has only manifested itself to this degree in the last 30 years or so. The gap didn't use to be so wide. Workers see how much the top people of listed companies are earning and they think it is the same for all companies, even small ones. So they go on strike because they cannot survive and smaller businesses are caught up in the crossfire. 

I think it is time that we stop seeing workers as commodities to be milked for their labour because of large unemployment and start seeing them as human beings with rights that also need to live. I think it is time that the people at the top stop thinking they are godly and start realising they are not worth as much as they think they are.

As far as trade unions go, they are so out of hand and short sighted it is unbelievable. The ones at the top of the trade unions are as guilty of lining their pockets while people suffer as are the CEOs. It is clear that they care about money and power and nothing else. In the mean time the workers and small business are the ones suffering.

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## Newretailer

Also, if some kind of law was in place to control the gap between richest and poorest in a company, the need for trade unions would fall away.

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## IanF

> ALEC HOGG:  But it does appear as though there are other motivating factors.  In fact, we did have the CEO of SEIFSA in the studio a bit earlier – Kaizer Nyatsumba – and in the discussions, he freely admitted that the economics of this kind of transaction are going to have consequences.  Gerhard, getting back to your people and the guys that you employ (and clearly, you have been following very closely).  If Andrew Goldstone from Invicta is accurate in that there were mobs of 100 or so heavily armed NUMSA members arriving at un-unionised operations to force the workers to not go to work, what do you think is going to happen tomorrow when your members start locking out those same NUMSA members who want to come back to work?
> 
> GERHARD PAPENFUS:  Well, I don’t know.  What I do know is that you cannot succumb to this.  What has happened in this strike…this wasn’t actually negotiations.  It was a form of blackmail.  That’s what you do.  You engage in strike action, intimidation, and violence to such an extent that you force companies to stop operation.  If it weren’t for this kind of action, the strike would have failed.  There wasn’t sufficient popular support for the strike, so they have to engage in violence and intimidation.  The problem is that by succumbing to this, we are setting the tone for future negotiations.  NUMSA has seen this.  This is the deal.  We demand.  Go and strike.  We negotiate with the big guys.  They make the deals and they make the easier deals.  I’m not saying that this was an easy deal.  This was a hard deal, but that is not our deal.  Our deal is even more difficult. 
> 
> It’s creating a very dim future for this industry and that didn’t happen now.  It happened over years.  This industry has lost 700,000 jobs in the last 30 years.  NUMSA said at the outset of these negotiations, that the industry lost 250,000 jobs in the last five years.  Seven hundred over the last 30 years…in terms of employment numbers, we’re back at 1972.  We can see where we’re going.  In fact, as we said at the negotiations table, if SEIFSA’s top company sends me an email, it says the way this is going – in ten years’ time there will be no metal industry left.  He’s one of the guys who’s signing the deal now.
> 
> ALEC HOGG:  It’s extraordinary.  NEASA’s Chief Executive Gerhard Papenfus, putting a lot on the table.  If you’ve been watching this program from the outset, we did talk to Wilhelm Hertzog from RECM at the top of the program who was giving us the view that perhaps this is in the interests of the big employers because it shakes out the weak and who are the weak, but the smaller companies.


From biznews.com interview

If true how do you get workers to stand up to the intimidation?

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## pmbguy

Yes, CEOs cost a fortune, but consider competition.  If you cap salaries of CEOs and Executives in SA they will simply move abroad where they Will get big salaries. You will lose them immediately.  Future talent would also move away, knowing their ambitions can’t fully be realised in SA. SA would be left handicap. Businesses would close, workers would have no jobs.

“Capping” as an ideal only makes sense if the entire world was in on it, but it’s not so we have to consider the reality instead.

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## adrianh

There are two interlinked issues at hand: 
1. Salaries
2. Using strikes as a bargaining tool.

Each issue needs to be addressed separately.

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Dave A (31-Jul-14)

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## Fanie

I find it hard to believe that so many are lead around blindfolded completely unaware of the fraud behind the strikes and other events taking place.

Please consider that when the platinum strikes took place for 5 months, the salaries were not paid, production never stopped and the saved salaries now pays for the salary increase up to the next planned strike.  I simply foresee all strikes goes along these lines.

The trillions removed from the Boer Volks resources are funding the NWO who commits one war after another in their quest to conquer and rule the world, and it is funded from here.  The USA is bankrupt, so where else does the trillions come from to fund them... ? Even China has more US$ than the US. This is the reason why the Afrikaner broederbonder organizations have to see to it that the Boer Volk gets destroyed and ridiculed so that no one would associate with being a Boer, because the Boer Volk must be prevented from restoring the Boer Republics at all cost, so the plundering can continue.

Not a cent plundered from these resources goes into the "South African" economy, apparently the salaries paid to these black slaves is supposed to be enough for the "economy", since it gets spent here.

The media is supposed the blame the "blacks" for the "disaster" they create.  Going back in history just one step then you realize that it was the Cape Dutch Afrikaner, who were illegally placed in charge of the Boer Republics and with force supervised the Boer and through their Afrikaner schools and churches tried to teach them to become Afrikaners.

The Afrikaner got the Boer Republics illegally and free from the British, and they ruined it to the point where they again illegally instated themselves under the black government (or so it is supposed to look).  The Afrikaner still sit in the control positions while creating the impression that it is the "blacks" causing all the problems.  Visiting other black countries there is nothing of these criminal orchestrated fraud going on, you find it only in SA.  Behind what you see is the real culprits creating everything sick, from the gun laws to the toll gate fraud to the strikes to the multiple licensing... everything raping so called "human rights" and "freedom" is thought out to present a false impression, and the black government are only pawns.

The strikes are against the "government" who behind the scenes are the NWO and their gentile Afrikaners, while creating the impression that it is the (without identity) blacks attacking the (without identity) whites.  All the Afrikaner web sites are trying to stir this up, especially the Suidlanders. The Afrikaner is trying to steal the Boer identity to again lay claim to the Boer Republics, you can now read on their fraud web sites that the Cape Dutch Afrikaner made the Groot Trek, the Afrikaner fought in Blood River and more, and on the other hand tries to deny and ridicule the Boer existence.  It is then also not surprising that the broederbonder TLU had Greg Standton of the NWO's UN's "genocide watch" here, when he returned the "genocide on the Boer" were changed to the "genocide on the Afrikaaaner", and blame the ANC of the genocide.  Now if we could only get the blacks to sing "kill the Afrikaner" eh.

If you consider the fraud committed in the Afrikaner staged Afrikaner heard Afrikanermag (aka Boeremag) case (to name ony ONE, the fraud was even published openly in the Raport) then you can form an idea who are really behind crime in SA.  

I put it to you that if you remove the Afrikaner and their 300~ broederbonder and freemason organizations from the Boer Republics, then almost all crime will disappear overnight.  ALL Afrikaner presidents and most of their cabinet were broederbonders/freemasons serving the NWO. The world over, where the jews get into with their gentile puppets (here it is the Afrikaner) there is exactly the same fraud, destruction and plundering going on.

The Boer Volk's Republics were illegally and with force witheld from the Boer Volk since the war ended in 1902.

So don't blame the blacks, they were brought here on purpose to take the blame for the wrongs they get tricked into so the real criminals can hide behind it.  No one in his right mind will open his own country and import foreigners by the millions under the so called "human rights" NWO view unless they think there is a pay-off for them. These black all have their own countries, which is not in the Boer Republics.

Wake up.

The Boer Republics must be restored to their rightful owners, the Boer Volk.

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## pmbguy

Fanie, Jy jaag nou net kak an you must be crazy to think like this, never mind the technicalities of your post

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## IanF

Fanie
I suggest you start your own thread with your post so this thread doesn't go off on a tangent.

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## Greig Whitton

Man, there is nothing like online anonymity to bring out the crazy in people ...

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Len C (31-Jul-14), pmbguy (31-Jul-14)

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## PeterRich

The countries of Africa have destroyed their economies due to ongoing power stuggles. Why do people think it would be any different here. We need to put our goverment back into hands that work for their people.

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## adrianh

> I find it hard to believe that so many are lead around blindfolded completely unaware of the fraud behind the strikes and other events taking place.
> 
> Please consider that when the platinum strikes took place for 5 months, the salaries were not paid, production never stopped and the saved salaries now pays for the salary increase up to the next planned strike.  I simply foresee all strikes goes along these lines.
> 
> The trillions removed from the Boer Volks resources are funding the NWO who commits one war after another in their quest to conquer and rule the world, and it is funded from here.  The USA is bankrupt, so where else does the trillions come from to fund them... ? Even China has more US$ than the US. This is the reason why the Afrikaner broederbonder organizations have to see to it that the Boer Volk gets destroyed and ridiculed so that no one would associate with being a Boer, because the Boer Volk must be prevented from restoring the Boer Republics at all cost, so the plundering can continue.
> 
> Not a cent plundered from these resources goes into the "South African" economy, apparently the salaries paid to these black slaves is supposed to be enough for the "economy", since it gets spent here.
> 
> The media is supposed the blame the "blacks" for the "disaster" they create.  Going back in history just one step then you realize that it was the Cape Dutch Afrikaner, who were illegally placed in charge of the Boer Republics and with force supervised the Boer and through their Afrikaner schools and churches tried to teach them to become Afrikaners.
> ...


Naai maar die oudtjie van die orandja kan mos nou n lekka k@k storie vertel. Djy moet gaan daar by die boek publishers en dan kan djy sommer daai tale gaan spin en a lekka movie deal kry. Hulle soek mos vir die lekka Suid Afrikaanse Sci Fi soos daai lekka movie "distrik naain"

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## PeterRich

Psycho-graphic Model

Introduction
An over simplification but it gives an indication of emotion and intellectual maturity and is very useful in a marketing situation
Overview
This model is not based on race in any way or form, or education, although some cultures will have a greater number in certain sectors
Every living person also possesses all four qualities in varying degrees and is usually dominated by one.

How it works
The model works on the principle: The identity of self or what your self-esteem is based on. One need's to interrogate each sector with the question “What do you identify with consciously or unconsciously?” or the response one would expect from the question “Who am I?”



A brief over view of each sector


Compassionate God Self
“Who am I?”
	I am a selfless spiritual being and believe in practicing compassion”

“How do you make decisions?”
	Decisions are based on spiritual principles that will spiritually benefit man and mankind. Violence and force are not options that are considered.

How do we communicate with these people?
	Simply by listening and aspiring to achieve their wisdom and values and besides they only constitute very small portion of the market sector. 

Examples of these people
The Dalai Lama
The Pope
Gandhi

Intellectual
“Who am I”
	I am a leader and usually an educated person who responds to logical reasoning and understands that emotions are useless in a boardroom. I usually choose the moments when emotions are safe to reveal. I am very disciplined

“How do you make decisions?”
	Decisions are based on facts and figures. I fight injustice and believe in human rights. I intellectually make decisions to the benefit of man and mankind. I will use violence only as a last resort and usually only enough to restore peace.

How do we communicate with these people
	Pride ego and status play a role in these peoples lives but you also need those facts and figures.

Examples of these people 
World leaders
Leaders in boardrooms all over the world
Scientists
Educationalists
I have always thought Colin Powell was a good example 


Emotional
“Who am I?”
	I am usually a blue-collar worker, not an educated person and my beliefs are not always based on fact.  I am often religious and often have superstitious beliefs. I have many unconscious double standards, which seem reasonable to me. If you offend me in any way I will resort to violence, and it seldom is, but could be fatal. Fanatical beliefs may also lead to extremist violence

“How do you make decisions?”
I intuitively make decisions and don’t need the facts and figures. Things just have to feel right and not a very disciplined person. My emotions rule me and often get me into trouble. People need to listen to what I say and not how I say it.



How do we communicate with these people?
	These people respond to every emotion in the book, and are impulsive buyers and primarily consumers. They seldom acquire great wealth. The comfort of a branded product appeals to these people

Examples of these people
	Most of us have a fair slice of this quality
	In it’s most radical form: I think it’s called Fundamentalism


Physical Body
‘Who am I?
	I am physical body. Just look and see all the things I can do. I believe in force and control. I am physically strong often with a strong sex drive and will abuse any power I have, for the benefit of myself. I am constantly unhappy about something, if the reason disappears for my dissatisfaction, I will manufacture another or shift my focus to another. I have no emotional or intellectual maturity. I will commit any injustice, for the benefit of myself. I am capable of unspeakable violence and have little understanding of the damage I have done. If I can get away with it I will do it. I do not respond to logic and reason. I tend to be a wasteful consumer of products, as opposed to a producer and I am often predisposed to littering. 
The other three groups are so naïve, they believe I understand co-operation achieves more than conflict. It is safer to give me a gun because with it I can only harm a few people. But with knowledge and the power to use it, I can destroy populations and even nations.

How do you make decisions?
	Promote self-interest irrespective of the consequences 

How do we communicate with these people
Any emotion applies but they respond very well to power, domination and control. It may be possible to influence them, by demonstrating physical dominance, (this distresses the other three sectors, because they judge others by their own standards and values) or at the very least, convincing posturing is necessary. Loyalty may be possible by demonstrating fairness from a dominant position. A typical sales strategy would be to have pictures of “gifts” visible during the presentation.

Examples of these people
	Africa has many examples (Wealthy leaders, and staving populations)
	Children

The last two sectors 
Human Rights
We often abuse power. We are the greatest of perpetrators and also victims of Human Rights. If we transgress the principles of Human Rights, we are often the first to complain that we are the victims and manipulate the situation.

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## Colleen Keal

Cosatu and Numsa, don't care about the workers.  Its a power struggle and unfortunately its the workers that end up losing at the end of the day.  Making unreasonable requests for salary increases and forcing the workers not to be at work, will end up with most companies using automation at the end of the day or closing.  So the age old saying "cutting of your nose to spite your face" is applicable here.

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## Ouman

I am an old man. I read this thread carefully and it is clear to me that few of the commentators have a clear understanding of how wealth is Created by Economic Development. Some observations:

In '76 I joined the SA subsidiary of a USA company in Marketing. On my first trip to the USA I booked my Sunday trip from NY to Chicago via Los Angeles as I wanted to get a Top Picture of the USA. I got a window seat and for hour upon hour I saw actively used farmland passing below, interspersed with villages, small towns and industrialized cities. My neighbor on one of these legs, an American and I started talking and I said that I am amazed at the economic development I saw in the USA. 
He claimed that this development was largely due to only two words - You're Fired -. According to him this phrase works in both directions. If you are a good worker and the boss pays you too little you can fire the company and find better work elsewhere. If you are not good enough the company fires you and no employer wastes money correcting your errors. Pretty soon employers learn to pay you what you are worth and good employees learn to be good enough to earn well. After a few firings even poor workers learn to bite the bullet and do a good job. 

This creates jobs like no other (Go Research Unemployment in the USA compared to anywhere else. Just remember to also compare average wages as well) and pretty soon Emplyees become a scarce commodity and employers have to find ways and means to afford the productively. Refer this article from The New York Times of August 29, 2007 by Keith Bradsher on Chinese Wages [URL="http://www.nytimes.com/2007/08/29/business/worldbusiness/29labor.html?n=Top/Reference/Times%20Topics/People/B/Bradsher,%20Keith&_r=1&"] In this article Bradsher, discussed Chinese wages and told the story of Mr Zhang whose wages for a 45 hour week had increased between February and August 2007 by 34%. However if one reads a bit deeper you find that Mr Zhang's basic wage really only increased by 10%. He was paid per piece produced and although his pay per piece produced was increased by 10%. He figured out and applied productivity increasing methods that enabled him to increase his output in units by about 25%, resulting in a 34% increase in total income while working the same 45 hour week.

Many South African workers lost their jobs because of cheaper Chinese products produced in this manner. Is this perhaps the difference? I have sat at Wage Negotiating tables with a COSATU Union many times. From this experience I cannot even imagine trying to negotiate a piecework wage deal successfully. I would like to quote two sentences from this article:
For decades, many labor economists said that China's vast population would supply a nearly bottomless pool of workers. 
And 
But factory owners and experts who monitor the nation's labor market, say that businesses are [now] having a hard time finding able-bodied workers and are having to pay the workers they can find, more money.
What a change. This change is the result of economic development based on using one's Strengths. Namely Low cost wages of large unemployed population leads to the exporting of unemployment. Greater domestic employment leads to larger domestic markets through internal market growth and higher wages due to greater learned productivity and labor scarcity.  See this video of a Chinese invented productivity gain in T Shirt Folding http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3MtIqopmEFM as an example.  

As long as our legislation allows Communist inspired Trade Unions to dominate the labour scene - FEW JOBS WILL BE CREATED and our economy will be difficult. 

I have been researching a book on Why Africa is so Poor. If you would like a read of my present draft in .pdf form let me know at pieter.d.rossouw@gmail.com

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Dave A (31-Jul-14)

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## adrianh

> Psycho-graphic Model
> 
> Introduction
> An over simplification but it gives an indication of emotion and intellectual maturity and is very useful in a marketing situation
> Overview
> This model is not based on race in any way or form, or education, although some cultures will have a greater number in certain sectors
> Every living person also possesses all four qualities in varying degrees and is usually dominated by one.
> 
> How it works
> ...


Do you work for the Microsoft helpline by any chance?

Everything you say is technically correct but unfortunately adds no value to the current debate.

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## PeterRich

> Do you work for the Microsoft helpline by any chance?
> 
> Everything you say is technically correct but unfortunately adds no value to the current debate.


I though it would explain the behaviour we are seeing during the strikes. Why would we be expecting anything different?

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## desA

> PeterRich opined:
> The countries of Africa have destroyed their economies due to ongoing power stuggles. Why do people think it would be any different here. We need to put our goverment back into hands that work for their people.


Precisely. The economies of Sub-Saharan Africa. Refer to Moeletsi Mbeki - Architects of Poverty.

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## adrianh

> I though it would explain the behaviour we are seeing during the strikes. Why would we be expecting anything different?


Maybe I'm being harsh...let's rather change our approach. 

What would you do to resolve the strike problem?

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## PeterRich

> Maybe I'm being harsh...let's rather change our approach. 
> 
> What would you do to resolve the strike problem?


My post offers a solution, but I am afraid would not sit well with many people. You need to deal with people on their own level or it simply won't work.

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## Len C

Striking well explained in layman's terms through this post.
It reminded me how I battled to make ends meet in the sixties, what we as a family had to endure to survive.
At the same time it made us stronger and more determined.
The only difference being, we never endangered other peoples lives, damaged others' posessions and helped ourselves to things that did not belong to us.
Today, through some poor business decisions, I am still battling to stay afloat, but what we've got we worked hard for.
It seems there is no pride amongst the striking masses and they certainly do not respect their fellow men.

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## Len C

Dit is net my opinie, maar ek dink nie dat dit nodig is om so met die Afrikaanse taal te mors nie.
If your comment on Fanie's post was intended to be a joke, it failed dismally.

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## pmbguy

> Psycho-graphic Model
> 
> Introduction
> An over simplification but it gives an indication of emotion and intellectual maturity and is very useful in a marketing situation
> Overview
> This model is not based on race in any way or form, or education, although some cultures will have a greater number in certain sectors
> Every living person also possesses all four qualities in varying degrees and is usually dominated by one.
> 
> How it works
> ...



I like it because mindset/worldview/attitude has a role to play in this. Besides the direct issues of unions and the employers we have this culture of entitlement in SA. Its not easy to change this psychology/attitude practically so it bears little in way of executionable/reasonable solutions and I guess that was what Adrian was picking up on. 

At the one extreme we have this Its my right to have a job and I will fight no matter what for a better salary, I dont care about the consequences at the other end we have I am lucky to have a job and I will work hard to earn a better salary .  

If the second attitude was more prevalent we would not be in this situation in the first place. The first attitude has its own reasons and it may even be viewed as a normal response.

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polpak (02-Aug-14)

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## pmbguy

> Dit is net my opinie, maar ek dink nie dat dit nodig is om so met die Afrikaanse taal te mors nie.
> If your comment on Fanie's post was intended to be a joke, it failed dismally.



Here’s a clue 

“Gatiep is my naam, maar onse mensies van die kaaap af jong, awe! ma se kinnis awe!”

My Chistian name is Gatiep. I hail from the fair Cape, !! greetings ladies !!.

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## xcorporation

> Striking well explained in layman's terms through this post.
> It reminded me how I battled to make ends meet in the sixties, what we as a family had to endure to survive.
> At the same time it made us stronger and more determined.
> The only difference being, we never endangered other peoples lives, damaged others' posessions and helped ourselves to things that did not belong to us.
> Today, through some poor business decisions, I am still battling to stay afloat, but what we've got we worked hard for.
> It seems there is no pride amongst the striking masses and they certainly do not respect their fellow men.


Ek kan altyd my forex vir jou aanbied; sal jou en jou familie help om wealth te maak.
Dan worry jy nie oor 9-5 besighede nie.

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## PeterRich

> I like it because mindset/worldview/attitude has a role to play in this. Besides the direct issues of unions and the employers we have this culture of entitlement in SA. It’s not easy to change this psychology/attitude practically so it bears little in way of executionable/reasonable solutions and I guess that was what Adrian was picking up on. 
> 
> At the one extreme we have this “It’s my right to have a job and I will fight no matter what for a better salary, I don’t care about the consequences” at the other end we have “I am lucky to have a job and I will work hard to earn a better salary ”.  
> 
> If the second attitude was more prevalent we would not be in this situation in the first place. The first attitude has its own reasons and it may even be viewed as a normal response.


I have no choice but to agree with your comments, in the solutions are difficult or impossible to implement. Also understand. I am opposed to violence, but consider this
Beliefs/ attitude/mindset are the cause of all behaviour. The powers have and are still are taking a soft attitude towards all this bad behaviour, and it has only grown stronger and more disruptive over the years.
Problem solving means dealing with the cause, everything else is waste of time and energy. Currently we have too many people running about with visions of power. Is it too late? I don’t know. 
Gone are the days where we could have used TV drama’s depicting the benefits of having a good attitude
What I do know. Unless some hard decisions are made to curtail this bad behaviour... and soon. We also need to communicate this on a level they can understand. We will no longer be considering if the decisions we are making are reasonable, in the not to distant future

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## Trickzta

My 50cents worth of opinion.

The relinquishing of minority rule and replacing it with majority rule whilst excluding the transfer of financial rule, except to the chosen few, has led to our country having an enormous gap between the haves and the have nots. We are highly ranked (top three) as a country with such a gap. A gap that keeps on growing wider.

As such, a situation is created that is ripe for further exploitation of the masses. While ulterior motives are behind this exploitation, the masses are led (misled) with promises and lies. This is called Politics. 

A hungry, homeless and unemployed person will easily align with any movement making oft repeated promises to improve their lot in life. Promises of wealth and abundance made to the poor act as a flame does to a moth. The call to arms is presented as optional but manifests itself as mandatory. This is called Political Reform.

Once the masses are mobilized and armed, their leaders are coerced into committing acts of violence and further acts of sabotage. This is called Civil War.

Africa is rife with examples of this strategic model. AFRICON, umm AFRICOM is very active in Africa and more so by the day. Below are two snippets from an Anti-war group in the USA.
_Africa has no choice between private capitalism and socialism. The whole world, including capitalist countries, is moving toward socialism, inevitably, inexorably. You can choose between blocs and military alliances, you can choose between political unions; you cannot choose between socialism and private capitalism because private capitalism is doomed! (The World and Africa, p. 307)
Such wars could very well be carried out with greater determination in Sudan, Zimbabwe, Nigeria, South Africa and Somalia which would be against the interests of the peoples of Africa and working and oppressed peoples throughout the world_
http://www.phantomreport.com/the-war...conomic-crisis

This Exercise started on the same day that BRICS started their meeting at which the ratification of a new International Bank was ready to signed.
[/I_]In addition to Soldiers from USARAF and the 4th Brigade, 1st Infantry Division, other participants include officers from the German Bundeswehr Geospacial Intelligence Division, civilian instructors from the British Peace Support Team -- Pretoria, and military personnel from Malawi, Botswana, Lesotho, Swaziland, Tanzania, Zambia and Namibia_[/I]
http://www.africom.mil/Newsroom/arti...hern-accord-14
Who is our choice, BRICS or AFRICOM?

I guess my take on the current and recent strikes is that they are/were largely politically motivated and driven by power hungry factions or individuals. This could explain the heavy handed pre-meditated massacring of striking miners. It could also explain the heavy handed manner in which that strike was organized (enforced).
 The NUMSA strike was organized with power and politics being the driving force behind the scenes. 

The curtailing and prevention of future strike action on a scale weve recently witnessed is a priority of National importance. The delivery of services to all sectors of society, the creation of sustainable employment and training of skilled workers are basic building blocks without which we will be hard pressed to avoid the emergence of a growing political movement rising up to challenge the Status Quo.

 I fully realize the contradictory nature of the goals and the methods employed to achieve these goals, Im merely stating my opinion, based on what I perceive to be unfolding. The items in italics are cut and pasted.

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## MrsVisser

I think many posters have touched on many of the contributing factors to the current situation:

* Unions competing with one another for membership
* Union bosses lining their own pockets at the expense of the workers they're claiming to represent
* Crazy disparity between CEO salaries and workers' wages
* A lack of investment from both unions and companies in infrastructures and systems to uplift the communities and the workers

What amazes me is that no one has mentioned the government in all of this.
Why hasn't the government built decent schools and hospitals? Why hasn't the government provided decent housing for these people? What is the government doing to curb the constant rise of just the basic cost of living? If the government was doing its job, the workers wouldn't feel so helpless that they would fall for the unions' lies.
The government is failing the country in spectacular fashion.

Just my opinion.

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Dave A (31-Jul-14), polpak (02-Aug-14)

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## desA

The ANC eats its way through SA's wealth, one day at a time. No time to help those who need help. Too busy helping themselves.

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## OdetteBK

> Consider that most of these mega corporations have been functioning in this country for more than 20 years. (much more)
> 
> How many BILLIONS have they made over the years? I mean if it is not profitable why continue? 
> 
> Also consider that minimum income in first world countries VS South Africa. If these companies are to lets say start a mine in Australia then they will have to go by the Australian law of minimum income right? 
> 
> So will that cost them more money or less money to do? Considering Australia has a healthy economy and there minimum income is MUCH higher than our own...    
> 
> Truth is our rand is weak and our labour is cheaper than anywhere else in the world. 
> ...


tec0: 
1. I know of a "mega corporation" that USED to function for more than 20 years but between BEE constraints, government taking months to pay accounts & strikes... they have closed doors.
2. Compare apples with apples... in other words if you want to compare South African minimum wage with Australian minimum wage, then also consider the cost of living in South Africa compared to Australia. We do not get paid in "first world money", we are *paid* in rands and we *pay* in rands. 

As Justloadit & adrianh said it so eloquently: workers work for the company, the company works for investors who invested their own hard earned money.

Sure a union is there to "protect" the interests of the worker. But when they hold the employer to ransom to the point that small struggling businesses are forced to shut down, where are the unions when the workers are left without work? Besides who wants to be forced to retain employees who willfully destroy company property & violently intimidate other employees?Unfortunately the only suggestion I can come up with at this stage (which no doubt has been thought about it) is that we need to find a way/happy medium where unions may continue ensuring employees are not exploited, without having absolute power to the detriment of the employer and in effect the demise of our economic future.

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Dave A (02-Aug-14), polpak (02-Aug-14)

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## adrianh

I think that the union leadership are the ones to blame. They created a deep rift between management and workers and although they claim to want to bring the two together their aim is to keep them apart. The reason I say this is simply because labour unrest is a direct result of union meddling. When last did you hear of a company strike where only non-unionised workers were involved. When last did you hear of non-unionised workers beating unionised workers when the go to work. When last did you hear of a union approve of anything that a company does or work together with the company to provide a better service or overcome a hurdle.

The problem is that union bosses see themselves as military leaders and their members as their soldiers to do with as they see fit. In military terms the union bosses are low ranking non-commissioned officers who hold their own soldiers hostage by means of their rhetoric and their thugs. They are able to play in the big leagues, not because of their abilities but because they have a large army at their disposal. Please keep in mind that the vast majority of those soldiers simply wish to be left alone but they are unable to because they have been coerced into joining the party for the "greater good"  ...Think about Germany and the second world war, the Nazi's stayed in power not because people loved them, hell no, they stayed in power because they used the SS to intimidate and exterminate anybody who tried to oppose them.

How do you fix the problem...one needs to find a way to remove the wedge that union bosses hold between management and workers. Increasing worker salaries will not do it because the fundamental problem lies in the wedge and the wedge will simply think up other reasons to stay put. Maybe the answer lies in educating young people to understand that they are responsible for their own wellbeing and that union bosses do not represent them but rather use them as pawns to be shifted around their own little empires.

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Dave A (02-Aug-14), polpak (02-Aug-14)

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## Dave S

Hi Everyone, I've been away from the forum for a while, and it looks like I've chosen a duzy of a topic to herald my return... so diving right in...

The striking is as Dave A says, "A power struggle", and it is politically-powered. It has little, if anything to do with the workers' salaries, contentment, etc. Quite frankly, the Unions don't give a s**t about their members, they seem more intent on overthrowing Governments and creating their own "world order" for the benefit of their own greed. But they do realise that they need the "workers" to fuel their efforts, so they will use propaganda and racism to get the workers on their side, under the pretext that they are doing it for the workers. The fact that the workers they represent are 99.0% poverty-stricken, sub-educates is no coincidence???

We are all aware of our history, and most of us are not proud of it, but we've had a 20-year "democracy?" in which to start putting things right, but instead of working to achieve, we have been working to destroy. We have been led by a clown-government that has allowed unions to grow, and most of those unions have grown under the ANC banner. Now we have a situation where these Unions have become a SA-Mafia (for want of a better description). It seems that we now have too many Unions, with each Union deciding which other Union they are going to support and thereby increasing their masses, so now you have workers striking from unrelated industries, mine-workers strike for a steel-workers cause and so on, ad-infinitum... What happens when the masses become too large, violence, intimidation, hate, etc. Entire cities can be shut down by this, and entire economies will collapse (Zimbabwe, Mozambique, almost the entire African continent... Indonesia, and some others outside Africa).

So how do we fix it? Assuming, of course, that it can be fixed... My simple answer, I don't know, it's not just a financial, political, racial, or even a personal issue, it's all of these and even more. The best minds of our country need to get around the same table with the sole purpose of proposing fixes in only their respective fields, The Financiers need to present the best solutions for financial stability, the Politicians must present their best solutions for political stability, even the best Criminal minds must present the best solutions to crime free society. Black, White, Rich, Poor, Young, and Old must be represented at this table. It is past time for all South Africans to take responsibility and do what we said we could back in 1986, and started in 1994. And in all of this, discriminatory policies, must be completely scrapped, companies must be allowed to hire whom they want, when they want, with a few parameters to protect against slavery, abuse, discrimination, etc. The idea is to create a country where people want to be, want to work, and are proud to be South African again.

PS. Having now read what I have just typed, it seems to be written as if by a child with Utopian sentiments, but maybe that is exactly what we need, the return to the re-birth of South Africa? To be children once again?

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Dave A (02-Aug-14), OdetteBK (01-Aug-14), polpak (02-Aug-14)

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## roryf

I was in an ongoing wage negotiation yesterday with my lawyer and obviously the Union guys.We are not prepared to give into their demands but have proposed other ways on getting the staff members to take home more money.We offered a 9% ATB increase which I feel is fair.We offered two other ways of increasing the take home pay:

1.Bonuses linked to staff productivity
2.Fluctuating increase/decrease percentage linked to company performance

The Shop Stewards immediately rejected these proposals saying that it could not work.I am on a commission based package for running the company I work for and the harder I work the more I get out,the more the shareholder get out.Both the lawyer and I tried to explain and they would not budge.South Africans (All colours) need to change their mind sets/attitudes and work together.I suspect that most of our unionised staff will be resigning from the union in the next month or two based on the Shop Stewards performance and attitude.

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Dave A (02-Aug-14), polpak (02-Aug-14)

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## tec0

Firstly no person accept the unions can speak on the unions behalf and it is the union’s job to make sure that all laws are followed to the letter. All their actions must be by the letter of the law also their actions. If those that act illegally are not being held accountable then all South Africans must ask why as no one is suppose to be above the law. 

Secondly Labour outsourcing created its own problems. Firstly a short term or temporary employee cannot get loans for cars, homes and find it difficult to maintain a medical aid and to establish a foundation and realistically things like investment and Pension is disappearing. I ask you HOW CAN IT BENEFIT THE COUNTRY IF OUR PEOPLE CANNOT INVEST LONG TERM?  Without investment a country is a fish out of water. Without long term investment the poor especially must depend on government for their Pension because they never where able to invest. Now the tax payer must pay more and more. How can this be beneficial to all parties involved? 

But our biggest problem is POWER and the reality is there millions upon millions of Rand that is outstanding from the municipalities. Now if we don’t pay we get cut off. This is normal for us. But why are the municipalities not paying their bill to Eskom? Obviously Eskom is also a business and need to pay for equipment, fuel and their employees and if they don’t get their money how must they function? 

So it s clear that our Government have to ask the municipalities “WHERE IS THE MONEY” “WHY ARE SO MUCH OUTSTANDING” “WHY ARE YOU NOT PAYING YOUR BILLS” START INVESTIGATIONS AND SOLVE THE MANY PROBLEMS THEY HAVE” Because if they don’t the infrastructures will fail and when that happens well then it is game over and we will no longer have industry, commercial and private sectors all will be gone as if by magic. 

The people must address the government and DEMAND ACTION against our many problems and there sources. If they don’t its GAME OVER.

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polpak (02-Aug-14)

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## Houses4Rent

Maybe this thread should be send to Number One...

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## jufonss

I got this information from one of my customer in SA.i'm the chinese guy.i wish this strike will pass soon.I just know,if the boat want go faster and steady,we need much peace.And i have been to SA by last year of May,i like there and love the peoples there.Wishes everything goes well.God bless you!!!

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tec0 (01-Aug-14)

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## Citizen X

Off the cuff..Suffice to say it, but this is a very contentious issue. If one asks a simple question: What drives the economy? And one attempts to answer it, one cannot leave human capital out of the equation. 
To compound matters, we have the Constitutional right to strike as well as the right to form groups. The legislatures answer to the problem of strikes is the Labour Relations Amendment Bill which will limit the right to strike by making it compulsory for arbitration to take place first[among other things].



We’ve seen the tenaciousness of workers themselves. We’ve witnessed how workers essentially fired their unions for the lack of better expression.



In a well functioning economy. One wouldn’t find these problems as there would be a reasonable supply of employment. If so, the worker simply says, ‘I don’t want to work for employer A because of the low wages, and then moves on to employer B who will pay the higher wage. This is where the problem lies, we don’t have this situation in SA. 



*A solution*, I don’t see one being implemented effectively and efficiently.
*The ultimate problem*: Forcing human capital to work happily for an amount the employer determines

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## IanF

> Firstly no person accept the unions can speak on the unions behalf and it is the union’s job to make sure that all laws are followed to the letter. All their actions must be by the letter of the law also their actions. If those that act illegally are not being held accountable then all South Africans must ask why as no one is suppose to be above the law.


Hi Teco can you explain the bit in red why can't the unions speak for the unions?
Why aren't the people break law during the strikes be arrested and convicted?
As for Labour Brokers the only way I see this changing is when the employer has the same right to fire an employee as the employee has to resign without due cause.

Labour Broking is here as the laws for firing an employee are very onerous for the employer.

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## Greig Whitton

> Labour Broking is here as the laws for firing an employee are very onerous for the employer.


To be honest, I really don't think that the legal requirements for dismissing an employee are that onerous. Obviously it is a lot easier for an employee to quit their job than it is for an employer to fire someone, but I don't agree that requiring employers to have a fair reason for dismissing someone and giving their employees an opportunity to respond to those reasons is that unreasonable.

Furthermore, there are some employers that have no interest in complying with any labour regulations - even those that are reasonable and fair - and have used labour brokerers to exploit their workers without breaking the law. Which is why the changes to the Labour Relations Act will make these practices illegal.

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## IanF

> To be honest, I really don't think that the legal requirements for dismissing an employee are that onerous. Obviously it is a lot easier for an employee to quit their job than it is for an employer to fire someone, but I don't agree that requiring employers to have a fair reason for dismissing someone and giving their employees an opportunity to respond to those reasons is that unreasonable.
> 
> Furthermore, there are some employers that have no interest in complying with any labour regulations - even those that are reasonable and fair - and have used labour brokerers to exploit their workers without breaking the law. Which is why the changes to the Labour Relations Act will make these practices illegal.


Just read on the forum how sometimes it is worthwhile not getting a lawyer and paying out 3 months at CCMA now instead of running your business efficiently you have to worry about this.
BTW I gave an employee an extra R500 this month as she really goes above and beyond she is so chuffed. I prefer to do positive things like this instead of hearings warnings etc.

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## Slow Blow

> Just read on the forum how sometimes it is worthwhile not getting a lawyer and paying out 3 months at CCMA now instead of running your business efficiently you have to worry about this.
> BTW I gave an employee an extra R500 this month as she really goes above and beyond she is so chuffed. I prefer to do positive things like this instead of hearings warnings etc.


Fuck em

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## AndyD

> Fuck em


Lol, who?

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## tec0

> Hi Teco can you explain the bit in red why can't the unions speak for the unions?
> Why aren't the people break law during the strikes be arrested and convicted?
> As for Labour Brokers the only way I see this changing is when the employer has the same right to fire an employee as the employee has to resign without due cause.
> 
> Labour Broking is here as the laws for firing an employee are very onerous for the employer.





> Firstly no person *accept* the unions can speak on the unions behalf


well obviously one cannot speak on behalf of someone else. One can speculate but that is all it would be "speculation"

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## polpak

Consider changing wage incomes so x% is paid as regular wages and y% as shares which pay dividends, with conditions preventing them from being sold for several years ?  

May encourage mutual consideration of the longer term welfare of employing company.  


BTW such requires an income which at least meets basic needs,  as well as cultivating minds, not hunter-gatherer minds....

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## irisyang

what we can do is to keep peaceful of our society...

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## IanF

> well obviously one cannot speak on behalf of someone else. One can speculate but that is all it would be "speculation"



Teco I think you meant except then it makes sense here is an explanation Anyway how do we stop the confrontation between employee and empoyer?

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## tec0

> Teco I think you meant except then it makes sense here is an explanation Anyway how do we stop the confrontation between employee and empoyer?


Honestly why don't you answer that question. I have been up for over 48 hours and my mind is not thinking clearly. When I have time to sleep I will have a look at the labour laws contact a few friends schooled in laws and if he is willing explain to me in layman terms what is written and what was amended and why.  

like any situation you need to know what have changed. As I was corrected by your local labour Guru the laws have changed and my knowledge as it stands is outdated so my conclusions may not even be applicable. 

Actually why not ask your local Guru this question. He is clearly qualified and knows the law by heart and according to other members he is credible so ??? 

There you go Mister Greig Whitton, the stage is all yours.  :Applaud:

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## PeterRich

> To be honest, I really don't think that the legal requirements for dismissing an employee are that onerous. Obviously it is a lot easier for an employee to quit their job than it is for an employer to fire someone, but I don't agree that requiring employers to have a fair reason for dismissing someone and giving their employees an opportunity to respond to those reasons is that unreasonable.
> 
> Furthermore, there are some employers that have no interest in complying with any labour regulations - even those that are reasonable and fair - and have used labour brokerers to exploit their workers without breaking the law. Which is why the changes to the Labour Relations Act will make these practices illegal.


Consider the dilemma of a small business. A few of the skills he requires. Firstly he/she needs to be an expert in his field, and in addition, financial skills, selling skills, management skills, business law, employing skills, laws governing contract, labour law and all this on a budget that would fold any corporate.

What happens when someone is employed. A mistake was made due to lack of skills or psychometric testing could not be afforded. Should such a company be allowed to fold because he could not afford to comply with the labour laws

If just one person develops a bad attitude, that company is at the risk of folding. A small company seldom has the time, energy, money and often lacks the skills to deal with these situations. 

Your comments are valid, but cannot be as broad based as you may be suggesting

Do you you beat up your baby, because it can't walk well yet?

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Justloadit (02-Aug-14)

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## Greig Whitton

> Consider the dilemma of a small business. A few of the skills he requires. Firstly he/she needs to be an expert in his field, and in addition, financial skills, selling skills, management skills, business law, employing skills, laws governing contract, labour law and all this on a budget that would fold any corporate.


As a business owner myself and someone who helps other entrepreneurs, I very much sympathise with the challenge that you have perfectly summed up. So many of my clients began their business because they excelled at a particular trade or skill - be it catering, IT, engineering, or some other profession - only to discover the hard way that building a business around those talents involves a whole different set of complex skills.

We absolutely need simpler, less onerous rules - particularly with respect to our labour laws. But that does not mean that all regulations are bad. And when it comes to dismissal situations, I don't think that our laws are particularly complex:

1. Don't fire someone unless you have a fair reason (e.g. poor performance, incapacity, misconduct, operational requirements).
2. Before you fire someone, explore alternatives to dismissal and give the affected employee an opportunity to respond to your reason for firing them.

You don't need to be a labour law "guru" to get to grips with this. I've sat down with clients and explained it to them in half an hour or less. I've written plain English business guides that require less than an hour to read and apply.

Part of the problem is that many small business owners don't want to learn, or assume that it is a lot more complex than it really is. They want the freedom to do as they please. And in some respects, they do deserve more freedom. But dismissal is not one of those situations. You can't have business owners (irrespective of the size of their company) firing people on a whim. It would lead to exactly the sort of exploitation that labour brokering has been used for (not, of course, to suggest that all labour brokers or their clients are exploitative).

As you correctly point out, business owners often make mistakes due to a lack of business expertise. But their employees shouldn't have to pay for those mistakes. Being a business owner opens up fantastic opportunities, but it's not without risk or responsibility.

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## Slow Blow

60K cash a month, no K4's, fook em all :Big Grin:

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## adrianh

> As a business owner myself and someone who helps other entrepreneurs, I very much sympathise with the challenge that you have perfectly summed up. So many of my clients began their business because they excelled at a particular trade or skill - be it catering, IT, engineering, or some other profession - only to discover the hard way that building a business around those talents involves a whole different set of complex skills.
> 
> We absolutely need simpler, less onerous rules - particularly with respect to our labour laws. But that does not mean that all regulations are bad. And when it comes to dismissal situations, I don't think that our laws are particularly complex:
> 
> 1. Don't fire someone unless you have a fair reason (e.g. poor performance, incapacity, misconduct, operational requirements).
> 2. Before you fire someone, explore alternatives to dismissal and give the affected employee an opportunity to respond to your reason for firing them.
> 
> You don't need to be a labour law "guru" to get to grips with this. I've sat down with clients and explained it to them in half an hour or less. I've written plain English business guides that require less than an hour to read and apply.
> 
> ...


Well said.

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## adrianh

> *[FONT="]The ultimate problem[/FONT]*: Forcing human capital to work happily for an amount the employer determines


I disagree, the ultamate problem is a third party holding a wedge between employer and employee. 

I say this because my staff and my famility have overlapping lives because not only do we have similar problems they also work at my home. We have a very clear understanding of their issues and they have the same understanding of ours. When they don't deliver nobody gets paid and sometimes they do deliver and the customer doesn't pay so they still don't get paid. We all sort of suffer together. When things pick up we all share in the spoils. Ok, so what I am trying to say is they work hard and we work hard and we all have our nuts on the same line. They understand that there is a light at theend of the tunnel but that it is up to each and every one of us to suffer together till we reach that light. It is their choice, they are free to leave if they want, they understand that if they don't do the work then mywife and the girls and I will do it and it will get done with or without them. They cannot hold us at ransom simply because there is nothing that they can do that we cannot or will not do ourselves. Ok, so what would the situation be with a union shop steward wedged between us and the workers, well for starterse wouldn't have the level of personal contact that we do. They would be the workers and we would be management. They would stop all work if their salaries are paid late and that would simply worsten the situation because now more work isn't getting done. We would be unable to address issues as they arisebecause all communications have to go via the union...etc..

Anyway, to cut a long story short, I have no time for unions and I believe that they are the single most destructive force not only in the workplace but also in this country.  I have witnessed numerous smallish businesses close down due to unionisation and the militancy that goes with it and I vow that I will close my doors before I will allow a arrogant incompetent knitwit to dictate to me and my workers what we may and may not do.

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## cyppokagain

One of the reasons I got here was following metals prices vis a vis geopolitical and macro/micro impacts.

Two things the mines in SA suffered from was capital wasn't being put in due to all the regulation, BEE(taxes), and other aspects which not only limit capital returns at the time of investment, through the development and mining phase but also at the time of equity return and capital recycling. The second aspect is capital investment in other locations where you could be certain of capital you put in remaining yours and labor being substituted by more intensive(underground) development. Think Finland and Canada where and underground mine might cost a multiple of what it would in SA but if you lay things out long term it becomes cheaper since the fixed costs amortize over time and theoretical inflation or deflation would help you recoup a larger share of capital due to labor/capital machinery break-down. Regulation regarding pollution may be tougher but capital certainty regarding ownership and benefits is also carries more trust.

The only way to keep a society going is to have everyone have a stake that they earned, and not just phantomly redistributed based on someone's preconceived notions today and then tomorrow, and then after that and so on. Everyone should be able to have a chance to participate in the market and make ends meet. Gov't wants barriers because it gets fees from entry/exit/participation and so on irrespective of weather there is growth through the system or it simply stagnates.

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AndyD (03-Aug-14)

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## gac

And the truth is that throwing more money at employees doesn't necessarily improve the level of initiative - initiative is an ingrained attitude to life in general and it can only be rewarded when displayed - not rewarded in advance in the hope it gets displayed.

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## Greig Whitton

> I say this because my staff and my famility have overlapping lives because not only do we have similar problems they also work at my home.


Great post, Adrian. Would you mind elaborating on this part? What sort of business do you run? Did you make the decision to have employees live with you from the start, or did it evolve over time, or was it a practical necessity? How are disagreements and conflict resolved, especially when your personal and professional boundaries are so intertwined?

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## adrianh

> Great post, Adrian. Would you mind elaborating on this part? What sort of business do you run? Did you make the decision to have employees live with you from the start, or did it evolve over time, or was it a practical necessity? How are disagreements and conflict resolved, especially when your personal and professional boundaries are so intertwined?


Let me give you a bit of history and insight into my world.

I spent 20 years in IT programming, DBA'ing, project managing etc. My wife is q ualified heavy current technician and she spent 17 years working for ESKOM in planning and finance. I was never cut out for the corporate thing because I was too much of a loskop hard@$$. I got pushed out of a company about 10 years ago, mostly because I was a twat at the time (but that took me a long time to realize). I made the fatal mistake of distancing myself from an industry that I love because I hated the people. I then started a little business from the house and it slowly developed. When I say slowly I mean really slowly, I don't think that there is a mistake that one could make in business that I haven't made. My wife left ESKOM about 3 years later and joined me. The idea was to build our own little thing so that she could have the freedom to spend time with the kids and also do the admin / financial side of things. It has been very difficult financially and we have learned to get by with next to nothing. We earned good salaries while we were employed but we were both terribly unhappy. We spent many years scraping the barrel though we had a lot of support. We put absolutely everything into the venture and I would say that even though we have had an absolutely terrible financial time we became happier and happier. Things started picking up as the entire business process started to be formalized and we started to develop a smallish but good client base. The business is now in what I suppose is called a "consolidation phase" we have good products, customers, reps, staff, manufacturing methods, equipment and financial support that we need. This phase is where all those ingredients are clearly documented and turned into clearly defined processes and procedures. I have a crystal clear idea of what I need to do to accomplish this task and it is going to take me finding or writing a custom business management system to suit our needs. Our "business information" is simply too scattered and ad hoc to be of any real practical use.

Ok, now to what we do. let me start the discussion by telling you about the technologies that we use on a daily basis and then work backwards: We do 2D & 3D drawing and design, laser cutting, cnc machining,  mould making, resin casting, white metal casting, brass etching, vinyl cutting, sublimation printing, pad printing, airbrushing, small scale microprocessor electronics...and very much anything else that one can do in a smallish workshop. We do ad hoc work to a small degree but mostly concentrate on our own in-house products.

Ad-hoc work
========
Laser cutting for Architectural students, architects, producers of jewellery, art, toys, wine boxes, model aircraft, quilting and sewing industry, model robots....the list goes on...
Silicone mould making for the soap, toys, parts, jewellery and all sorts...
Model building on commission We built 1:24 scale locomotive and coach models for Spoornet, developed a 1:35 scale armoured car model for a Pretoria based manufacturer, a 1:72 pylon racing tower and lots more.
We print t-shirt, mouse pads and make all the gifts for all the local kids.

In-House products
The business then has two separate but related entities; Hillcraft (non model related) and Scalecraft (Scale Modelling)

Hillcraft
=====
We manufacture various product sets aimed at various markets: The products are basically similar but themed appropriately per market (lets call them decorative products) laser cut mirrors, keyrings, bookmarks and many others.
Then we also make large dollhouse kits and various other knock down laser cut kits such as drawer systems, trays etc.

Scalecraft
======
Ok, now this is where all the fun happens. We are THE largest manufacturer or South African Railways scale model trains in the world. We currently focus of HO which is 1:87 scale but we will move over into other scales as well over time. We are able to produce most of the rolling stock the the SAR had in the olden days. I think that we currently do about 300 different models sporting up to 7 different liveries each. You name the train, we've built it, the various Blue Trains, Royal Train, Drakensberg, the various renditions of the Union Limited, premier Classe, Trans Karoo, Orange Express and many more. We do numerous locomotives, electric, diesel and steam. lots of building, and many more products. We also manufacture building jigs to hold the trais while you work on them, model trays, track laying guides.....and lots more.

BTW: We also supply ROVOS Rail with models of their rolling stock that they sell on to their customers. We do 30-50 models per month for them and we are able to manufacture every single coach and locomotive that they have in their fleet.

Ok...now you know what we do.

With regards to the structure of the business
============================
My house is a workshop. The double garage is full of gear, a pad printer, a laser and casting equipment, the (what used to be the lounge) sports a laser, a cnc mill, brass etching equipment and lots of computers. Of course the kitchen is a storage / packing area and what used to be the dining room is now the library, $hitpile and, well that's where it goes when you don't know where to put it. I love what I do so I am at it 16-20 hours a day. My wife is at it as well when she isn't busy with the kids. The situation is perfect for us because I am always busy making something or the other and as such am able to run multiple jobs simultaneously. I certainly wouldn't trade the setup for anything else, it would be great to build on more space though.

You see, this is why I say that our lives overlap with the staff. They get here anytime from 7am to 9am. Sometimes the kids are here, sometimes I am still half asleep and so on. We operate as a fairly close family because we are, believe it or not, actually very caring people. My wife is an admin / finace guru and help the staff with everything from sorting out visas to opening bank accounts and dealing with Unisa documentation. The staff grow with us and I let them use my equipment and stuff if the need arises. None of them make a lot of money and they do need to deal with their own personal $hit. It is really a two way street, we help them build their lives and better themselves and they do their level best to get all the work done. Of course the local guy has his momnets but he isn't all bad, he is just like one of the kids that needs a bit more attention. A lot of people would say that it is a terrible situation to have people in your house all the time but it is not so, we are very loyal to them and they are loyal to us. Like I said, when money doesn't come in then we all sit up the creek together.

I suppose that this would all change as the company grows and that is ok. I think that we could put more distance between us if we weren't so terribly reliant on one another. The bottom line is that we would not have been able to develop the business without this absolute single minded drive to create something out of nothing. I am honest when I say that the business may be mostly my brainchild but it sure as hell has them to thank for bringing it to life.

You asked about disagreements and conflicts. They rarely occur because there is only one mantra at the moment and that is production. Each person has a role and the bottom line is very simple, we all do what we are supposed to and we accept that mistakes happen, we deal with it immediately and move on. The great thing about me being as hands on as I am is that there is hardly anything that they can do wrong that I haven't messed up on numerous occasions myself. As long as we learn it is all good.

Man I tell you, if I could put down an appropriate Business system & IT system tomorrow and fill it with our data the world will be my oyster. 

You can see the models and stuff here https://www.facebook.com/Scalecraft
and look at the catalogue here  http://issuu.com/hillcraft/docs/scal...gue_2014_06_01

Greig, you should come over one day so that I can show you around. You will see that we live/work/operate in a happy/productive/ultra creative and somewhat off the wall environment.

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Greig Whitton (03-Aug-14), Slow Blow (06-Aug-14)

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## Greig Whitton

Thank you for taking the time to provide such generous insight into your world!




> Man I tell you, if I could put down an appropriate Business system & IT system tomorrow and fill it with our data the world will be my oyster.


Have you approached your local SEDA branch for assistance with this? Alternatively, it might be worth checking out the Graduate Asset Programme for a suitably skilled graduate (i.e. someone with a business admin and/or IT background) who is looking for an internship / working experience.




> Greig, you should come over one day so that I can show you around. You will see that we live/work/operate in a happy/productive/ultra creative and somewhat off the wall environment.


I would love to take you up on that offer. The next few months are particularly crazy for me, but nearer the end of the year would be good.

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## adrianh

Great.




> I would love to take you up on that offer. The next few months are particularly crazy for me, but nearer the end of the year would be good.


I must admit that the irony of this statement is truly...well how shall I put it....rather odd.

Let me explain why I find the situation quite amusing.

A company who calls itself "Evergrow" which claims to be "Helping South African business owners grow their business without the growing pains" is totally oblivious to its own poor marketing strategy. Think about it, I run a small company that is growing at a tremendous rate and is struggling with all sorts of issues and is looking to implement not only a business system but also an IT system. I invite you to come around a have some coffee. Your response it that you are too busy for the next 3 months to drive to Goodwood and drink a cup of coffee with a potential client. The trip would take maybe one hour out of your day and you could even pop in at Canal Walk on the way back.

Please don't get me wrong, I am quite happy to do without your services. Our interaction crystalized the following thought in my mind....(me having two teenage daughters and all)...

It is not what we claim to know, nor what we aim to teach, but rather the footprints that we leave to light the path for those whom we wish would follow!


Peace brother!

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## desA

Clipped 'im, adrianh - got under his facade.   :Chair:

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## Greig Whitton

> A company who calls itself "Evergrow" which claims to be "Helping South African business owners grow their business without the growing pains" is totally oblivious to its own poor marketing strategy. Think about it, I run a small company that is growing at a tremendous rate and is struggling with all sorts of issues and is looking to implement not only a business system but also an IT system.


We don't implement business or IT systems. That is why I recommended SEDA and GAP, because I think that those organisations might be a better fit for your needs.

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## adrianh

Fairly good save. I'll give you 6.5 out of 10.

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## Greig Whitton

> Fairly good save. I'll give you 6.5 out of 10.


Geez, what does a guy have to do to get an 8 around here?  :Stick Out Tongue: 

Seriously, though, give your local SEDA branch a shout. They may be able to connect you with a specialist at a tiny fraction of the price.

And I would still like to visit you - not to sell you anything, but because I am interested in your model train production and unique working environment.

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## wynn

> and unique working environment.


Unique in RSA maybe only in the 'white' suburbs but certainly not in the 'Spaza' 'Shebeen' culture of the Townships and certainly not in say Hong Kong where everybody scraping a living uses his own house to manufacture widgets etc.

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## adrianh

> Geez, what does a guy have to do to get an 8 around here? 
> 
> Seriously, though, give your local SEDA branch a shout. They may be able to connect you with a specialist at a tiny fraction of the price.
> 
> And I would still like to visit you - not to sell you anything, but because I am interested in your model train production and unique working environment.



I give you 10 out of 10 for your candour  :Wink: 

I must admit that I am also frightfully busy.

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## Dave A

I have to say I'm pretty amazed by all the responses. Here are some that came back via email as a result of my mass mail to members about this thread:

the only way for us to address our conserns are . ( dismiss all employees except the minimum needed to make enough money for your self and Family.  Stop paying taxes ( you will not get any support from the DA , FF or any political party because it will effect their own pockets)

Only employ Family , friends .

Do not employ anybody belonging to Trade Union and pay total cost to company . This should include sickleave , family responsable leave and leave pay , short term contract. let every one go at end of contract.

Do asmuch as possible self.

I agree your are totally correct we will try our best to contribute to that .As soon as possible.

This country is rotten to the bone the anc run the country on a buddy system 

May I suggest a "Thread" accumulating Factual information on how new legislation and "Rules of Business" is impacting on the Cost of Doing Business with the State at all levels, National, Provincial and Municipal.

Hi Dave,
Good to hear from you and sorry the circumstances are not better.
Yes, some of my heart remains in SA but I am glad I live in Canada.
Destructive strikes are common all over the world and are happening with increased frequency.
Political unrest is gaining momentum and we have no acceptable ready fix.
The world is not a happy place.
Unfortunately, the only solution is not acceptable--love thy neighbour.
We don’t know how to do it.
If you can find a solution please let me know

Hi Dave!
Yes it has been quite a while since I visited the forum. Truth be told, I've wondered if my input is of any value since there seem to be a lot of strong views from several TFSA members and quite frankly, I've wondered whether some of the people behind some of these views are not just displaying bravado. I don't wish to get into an online confrontation with some of them so I have quietly faded away. But I would like to continue receiving emails from TFSA and will make an effort to visit from time to time.

Regarding the strikes, quite simply, it starts from the top; poor leadership in Jacob Zuma.  His cohorts have shielded him in the past from prosecution, WaterKloof/Gupta, arms deal, Nkandla etc etc and he dare not take a firm stand on anything because of his debt of loyalty to them and fear of losing their support. So until the leadership changes to a squeaky clean President who appoints ministers of integrity, the situation will not change. The black man usually avoids confrontation preferring rather to 'sweep it under the carpet'. So I cannot offer any other suggestion or way out of the mess we are in. Only a strong President without fear or favour will change the situation. Are there any Black leaders in the whole of Africa who are like that? The only possible exception could be the President of Namibia (Sam
Nujoma?) (I can't remember his name). For the rest of them, they are all rotten to the core.

We really have to do something about the economic conditions in south Africa firstly we need to identify those capitalist who are benefiting out of the whole and also identify whether those being used are aware of who earns lot at the end and then make our people aware of those..capitalist and imperialists conquering our country bit by bit im..telling u we r watching and we r going to deal with those counter revolutionary forces

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## desA

Is the writing on the wall for SA, as many of us knew it?

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Chrisjan B (08-Aug-14)

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## tec0

Funny how a very important part of this "Metal Industry" strike was and is missed.  I guess the news about sanctions against Russia seemed too far a way to matter. 3 guesses who are one of our major holders in our local steel industry.... ??? 

Anyone? to any employer's delight it is now an established fact a employer can let go of their employees legally justly. But what of the many that "may" soon face unemployment? Or what about the 300 or so "men and woman coming to South Africa "As construction workers" thanks to out-sourcing? On various local resources? Anyone? 

So not only may we "*and please note this is a 50/50 that it may or may not happen*" lose employment how about the many locals that will not get use that "may or may not include yourself as a business owner" so not only is it a loss to the unemployed majority it may well be a loss to you the business owner. 

But let's see because I have a feeling that it my hit the news headlines soon... very soon.

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## Slow Blow

Yes, the Chinc's and the Ruskies are coming, has anybody been to King Williams Town lately, you have to speak Mandarin to do business there, even Edenvale is going slope.
The well off blacks don't give a toss as their boodle is off shore.
Most white small business owners, mainly the trades, are living the cash life and don't pay a lot of tax, just enough not to attract any attention.

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## tec0

Simple fact, outsourcing doesn't care. They will bring in outside skill thus no training no development no income for locals. How is this a good thing for anyone of us? I am not interested in a blame game, a history lesson nor about race. I am interested in how *we* local South Africans can earn, get educated and help build our economy. Because this will effect *ALL OF US!*

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Dave A (10-Aug-14), desA (10-Aug-14)

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## adrianh

> Simple fact, outsourcing doesn't care. They will bring in outside skill thus no training no development no income for locals. How is this a good thing for anyone of us? I am not interested in a blame game, a history lesson nor about race. I am interested in how *we* local South Africans can earn, get educated and help build our economy. Because this will effect *ALL OF US!*


BY GETTING OFF YOUR COLLECTIVE ASSES, TAKING RESPONSIBILY FOR YOUR OWN LIVES AND REALIZING THAT THE WORLD OWES YOU NOTHING WHATSOEVER.

Let me tell you what I have come to believe about humanity; humans are simply a parasite, they will happliy kill themselves and the host they feed on. Intelligence is a virus that infects a tiny percentage of the parasite. We can only hope that the virus infects more parasites but the virus does not seem to be strong enough to infect the entire parasite population. Hopefully the parasites that do not suffer from the 'intelligence virus' wipe themselves out before wiping the entire planet out.

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## Dave A

> I am interested in how *we* local South Africans can earn, get educated and help build our economy. Because this will effect *ALL OF US!*


Thank you, Tec0, for inspiring me once again.

That makes it twice in one thread!

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## tec0

In the end the solution is clear. It has been for some time now. We "the South African people" NEED a modular training system that is accessible to all including those with learning disabilities. Simple fact a trained person can do more for your company earn better and contribute more to this Country then an untrained person can. Full stop.  

But companies must start to demand this from government to implement a workable education system. Simple truth is we need to be able to write tests at a testing centre. Thus when you are ready to write you can go write your N1 N2 N3 N4 N5 and N6 exams just by simply paying for the test sit down and write it. Same day results is a MUST have! this will get corruption out of the system. 

Workshops must be made available for anyone. Right now there are workshops available but some cost up to R300k to do??? What unemployed person can afford R300k! I mean are you serious! 

modular workshop training at low cost will allow for accessibility and that is the one thing we need! I mean at least the future employee will have some working idea as to what is expected of her/him and they may even continue workshop training as the goal will be a FULL education and with it a PROPER understanding of the WORK thus enabling South Africans to build create and maintain infrastructure!!!   

We NEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEED THIS !!! 

or it is game over.

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## HR Solutions

As Adrian says above - get off your arse and make it happen.  Why wait for the "government" to do something - do something yourself !!!! Stop blaming other people and other organizations - its not their responsibility - its YOURS.


If we all woke up every morning with a negative attitude and blamed someone for the position you are in ........ where the heck would that get you ???  Go out there and MAKE IT HAPPEN ............

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## Dave A

If there is one thing this thread has identified loud and clear, it's *don't wait on government!*

We need to make our own plans.

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## Slow Blow

> Simple fact, outsourcing doesn't care. They will bring in outside skill thus no training no development no income for locals. How is this a good thing for anyone of us? I am not interested in a blame game, a history lesson nor about race. I am interested in how *we* local South Africans can earn, get educated and help build our economy. Because this will effect *ALL OF US!*


I am just training my son no more PD's!

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## adrianh

> In the end the solution is clear. It has been for some time now. We "the South African people" NEED a modular training system that is accessible to all including those with learning disabilities. Simple fact a trained person can do more for your company earn better and contribute more to this Country then an untrained person can. Full stop.  
> 
> But companies must start to demand this from government to implement a workable education system. Simple truth is we need to be able to write tests at a testing centre. Thus when you are ready to write you can go write your N1 N2 N3 N4 N5 and N6 exams just by simply paying for the test sit down and write it. Same day results is a MUST have! this will get corruption out of the system. 
> 
> Workshops must be made available for anyone. Right now there are workshops available but some cost up to R300k to do??? What unemployed person can afford R300k! I mean are you serious! 
> 
> modular workshop training at low cost will allow for accessibility and that is the one thing we need! I mean at least the future employee will have some working idea as to what is expected of her/him and they may even continue workshop training as the goal will be a FULL education and with it a PROPER understanding of the WORK thus enabling South Africans to build create and maintain infrastructure!!!   
> 
> We NEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEED THIS !!! 
> ...


My One employee is busy with her second year correspondence course with UNISA
Another is 35 and doing matric by going to class every day after work.
A lady that we know did a BSC @ Unisa part time - 7 years 

Go to your local technical college and do N1-N6 part time. I did N4-N6

Damn dude, haven't you ever heard of a library and evening classes. Nobody stops you from learning except your lazy ass. My 15 year old daughter teaches herself to understand Korean. Do you think that anybody learns anything by sitting on their asses all day whinging. Sis man, you talk about God and how great he is, respect him by using the intellect he gave you. If you spent half the time studying that you waste talking $h1t here you would have been a nuclear physicist by now.

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Greig Whitton (11-Aug-14), HR Solutions (11-Aug-14), OdetteBK (12-Aug-14)

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## HR Solutions

I firmly believe that you NEVER stop learning.  You must always better yourself throughout your life.  You never know enough - and you certainly do not learn by waiting for someone else to teach you or by sitting on the couch.

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OdetteBK (12-Aug-14)

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## OdetteBK

> In the end the solution is clear. It has been for some time now. We "the South African people" NEED a modular training system that is accessible to all including those with learning disabilities. Simple fact a trained person can do more for your company earn better and contribute more to this Country then an untrained person can. Full stop.  
> 
> But companies must start to demand this from government to implement a workable education system. Simple truth is we need to be able to write tests at a testing centre. Thus when you are ready to write you can go write your N1 N2 N3 N4 N5 and N6 exams just by simply paying for the test sit down and write it. Same day results is a MUST have! this will get corruption out of the system. 
> 
> Workshops must be made available for anyone. Right now there are workshops available but some cost up to R300k to do??? What unemployed person can afford R300k! I mean are you serious! 
> 
> modular workshop training at low cost will allow for accessibility and that is the one thing we need! I mean at least the future employee will have some working idea as to what is expected of her/him and they may even continue workshop training as the goal will be a FULL education and with it a PROPER understanding of the WORK thus enabling South Africans to build create and maintain infrastructure!!!


So you complain about the workshop costing so much, have you maybe done proper homework because your ranting & raving to check that just possibly R300k is low cost (cost price - for the lack of a better term at this stage)... who is going to give up their time for free to do the workshop training? You? You seem to have enough time to moan and blame everybody else. You mention paying for a test sit down & write. Next thing there are going to be complaints & violent & property damaging strikes, because people have to pay for these tests, these tests are too expensive, etc... There are too many people in this country who think they are owed, they are the only ones who suffer, who want everything without investing anything. 

There was a time when my mother & I easily could have fallen under the PD category barring a variation in skin tone. I had to start working as soon as I left school to support my mother & help my brother finish school. There was no money to go study after school. My mother was retrenched. Finding employment was not fun, my mother was told that at 45 she was too old & over qualified, at 18 I was 'too young & under qualified'. But my mother taught me a valuable lesson which you still need to learn, "so gemaak en so lat staan" doesn't cut it. Nobody owes you. You are dealt with a crappy hand in life, so what. You grow up & take responsibility for yourself, nobody will want to help you if you don't want to help yourself first. I eventually found a waitressing job, supported my family & saved my money to study bookkeeping via correspondence. Wherever I worked, I always asked someone if they would mind giving up a lunchtime or two to show me their work. I learnt basic secretarial work, control a switchboard, etc. This in turn helped me move on to other work. Again I have saved my money and 20 years later I have taken on the, albeit daunting, task of studying further. I am more than happy to assist where I can when someone asks to be helped. I don't have time for people who think I owe them my time and I 'must' teach them.

Stop using excuses and start taking responsibility for yourself.

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adrianh (12-Aug-14), HR Solutions (12-Aug-14)

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## HR Solutions

Nicely put Odette

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OdetteBK (12-Aug-14)

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## tec0

> So you complain about the workshop costing so much, have you maybe done proper homework because your ranting & raving to check that just possibly R300k is low cost (cost price - for the lack of a better term at this stage)


So only the rich have a right to education then? Ok then enjoy the world you are going to live in because it will be by your hand your mind your world. 

Cheers   


 :Smile: 


***Edit***

I was actually planning on writing something here but I realised that I am dealing with a clone. A mindset set forth by a monitory concept. You cannot understand what I am writing because you connected your own interpretation as fact something that other members also do. I cannot blame you for this. And if you can't see or understand my words there is nothing I can do about it.  

But if you think your story or accomplishment/failure is unique in any way. It is not... In all probability someone else will share your view your story your life lessons as they are. The truth's connected to it will differ as we as humans tend to experience the same happening differently.

I must say this. If you cannot see the need for education for advancement for sustainability then I stand by my original statement. "What can we do? I answer: Absolutely nothing" 

And since the moderators did not care to tone you down or ask you to be polite I see no need for this forum any more. It is sad because before the bullies it use to be a place of debate conversation and the creation of ideas concepts and ideology.

All I see now are people attacking and attacking getting away with it each and every time. The reality is waste more energy here. I see no point I see no need.   

So I say thank you to the moderators/owners for there support. 
I also identified business that I will never deal with this to is important. 
So in truth I have learned much. 

again cheers. For good.

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## HR Solutions

Again cheers tec.......... Ok let's bring some positivity back.

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OdetteBK (13-Aug-14)

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## pmbguy

Tec0 - Odette has certainly not written anything that warrants the moderators to get involved. 

As long as people agree with you you are fine. As soon as somebody disagrees you do the "I am a victim... I am leaving TFSA" thing, over and over again. Its embarrassing

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OdetteBK (13-Aug-14)

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## HR Solutions

Its like  "Throw your toys out of the cot everytime" ................ but that's cool ............... that's what children do.

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OdetteBK (13-Aug-14)

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## adrianh

Funny thing the notion of "how your own life reflects your mind-set / frame of reference" 

I cannot imagine how any athlete could accomplish anything if they believed that it was the worlds responsibility to do it for them. I always look at my teenage daughters and their outlook on life when it comes to this issue. I am starting to think that the problem lies in upbringing. I grew up in a household full of books and a father who was forever making stuff. He painted, sang, played guitar, made furniture and was also an orthopaedic surgeon. He was 100% self driven and all three of us kids picked it up. We all have lots of hobbies and are extremely driven in our own field of interest. My daughters are the same, they have hobbies and interests and they work on them without having to be forced to do so (homework and cleaning their rooms is not easy for them to do...but I do offer to lend a hand and often do) Anyway, they both have provincial colours in figure skating and they are both hell bent on getting SA colours. The 13year old terrorist is also hell bent on getting SA schools colours in horse riding. ok, so you might say that it is because we chase them and force them but it is not so, they practice skating 5 times a week and the little one does horse riding 3 times a week. The little one wants to start ice hockey and I am keen (she can then take all her frustrations out legally using her body and hockey stick). The most striking thing is that although she is at the rink 5 times a week she still begs me to take her on Monday nights to watch the games and on Saturday nights to skate with her friends. We said to her that we do not have R 1,300 right now to buy her new hockey skates but that doesn't faze her, she has already organized work for herself at the rink that pays R85 an hour and she has already put a lot of her old horse riding stuff up for sale. My eldest is always reading and learning. Although she is 15 she has the intellect of a very open minded and deep thinking 30 year old. People are mind boggled when they hear that she reads books on psychology, the second world war (from all perspectives), she even begged me to buy Ann Frank's Diaries. When she got into KPOP music she studied South Korean so that she could read, write and understand it. She looked into their culture and beliefs and she is very keen to go to South Korea and teach English. 

I think the reason that the girls are the way that they are is because that is our lifestyle, we work hard because we want to, not because the boss says so or because we are forced to, but simply because we are fascinated with the world and our own abilities. My view with the girls has always been to support whatever they are into provided that is not terribly dangerous or illegal. 

Our aim as parents is to enable our kids to be sensible, clear thinking, totally independent young ladies who do not have to rely on anybody to make their way through life. They must be equipped to earn their own money and to follow their own destiny without having to rely on a partner. They have to be able to stand tall and take their rightful place in life because they earned that right themselves.

....and this is why I am intolerant of people who do not take responsibility for their own lives, your life is your own and no government nor deity is going to live it for you.... 

...get off your ass and make yourself count...(...if my 13 year old and 15 year old daughters can then anybody can...)

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Justloadit (13-Aug-14), OdetteBK (13-Aug-14)

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## HR Solutions

Adrian that pretty much describes our family as well.  My two kids are so totally driven - one already qualified and the other in 3rd year.  The have a work ethic second to none and that is the way my wife and I are as well.  We try not to let anything get us down and if it does we stick together in a positive way, get up and try again if something has not worked out.  Some people might say you need money to do this - that is bullshit - if you want to achieve you will achieve - nothing comes easy to my kids - they are also quite prepared to work side jobs for what they need.  They are not scared to make it happen, they are strong kids.  My daughter worked part time her whole way thro her 5 years of varsity.  And obviously my wife and I would work harder when necessary to get them thro university.  I never once said that the government must supply them with anything - it was up to me to make sure that we provide for them.  And the sooner people start realizing that, the better.  YOU have to make it happen for your family - YOU have to provide for your family - You have to ensure that you give your children the best opportunity that you can to get them face the big wide world out there !

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## adrianh

It has very little to do with money, it is all about drive and tenacity. No matter what happens we all pick one another up, dust each other off and try again. My daughters learned at a very early age that falling off a bicycle, falling off a horse and falling down skating is part of life. No matter how wonderful the meal that you cook the dishes still have to be done. The trick in life is to learn how to fall properly. It sounds odd but it is true, they actually teach kids how to fall on ice without causing serious injury. The same goes for life, $h1t is going to happen whether you like it or not and you simply have to learn how to deal with it without it getting the better of you. Relationships fail, opportunities pass you by and yes, sometimes terrible things happen but you still have to be able to continue with your journey through life having learned something from the experience. My sister is an actuary, she did nursing for a year and then got a study loan and worked her butt of. My brother is, well, you know what he is. He used to work at the local drive-in to make a bit of cash while he was studying at university (yes, he also had a study loan) 

So many successful people tried and failed over and over again until they got it right. We are quick to say that some people just know exactly what to do and how to be successful, it is bull$h1t. They work, fail, get up, fall down and keep on going. There is not a single athlete that has gotten anywhere without injury or failure, it is simply a part of life.

My girls never whinge about falling down, they hurt for a while and then just practice the move until they no longer fall down.

The bottom line is that you have to try, you have to know how to fall without hurting too much, you then have to keep on at it...and you have to remember that even the absolute best athletes still fall during the most crucial competitions...life's a bitch - deal with it!

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## Justloadit

> Funny thing the notion of "how your own life reflects your mind-set / frame of reference" 
> 
> I cannot imagine how any athlete could accomplish anything if they believed that it was the worlds responsibility to do it for them. I always look at my teenage daughters and their outlook on life when it comes to this issue. I am starting to think that the problem lies in upbringing. I grew up in a household full of books and a father who was forever making stuff. He painted, sang, played guitar, made furniture and was also an orthopaedic surgeon. He was 100% self driven and all three of us kids picked it up. We all have lots of hobbies and are extremely driven in our own field of interest. My daughters are the same, they have hobbies and interests and they work on them without having to be forced to do so (homework and cleaning their rooms is not easy for them to do...but I do offer to lend a hand and often do) Anyway, they both have provincial colours in figure skating and they are both hell bent on getting SA colours. The 13year old terrorist is also hell bent on getting SA schools colours in horse riding. ok, so you might say that it is because we chase them and force them but it is not so, they practice skating 5 times a week and the little one does horse riding 3 times a week. The little one wants to start ice hockey and I am keen (she can then take all her frustrations out legally using her body and hockey stick). The most striking thing is that although she is at the rink 5 times a week she still begs me to take her on Monday nights to watch the games and on Saturday nights to skate with her friends. We said to her that we do not have R 1,300 right now to buy her new hockey skates but that doesn't faze her, she has already organized work for herself at the rink that pays R85 an hour and she has already put a lot of her old horse riding stuff up for sale. My eldest is always reading and learning. Although she is 15 she has the intellect of a very open minded and deep thinking 30 year old. People are mind boggled when they hear that she reads books on psychology, the second world war (from all perspectives), she even begged me to buy Ann Frank's Diaries. When she got into KPOP music she studied South Korean so that she could read, write and understand it. She looked into their culture and beliefs and she is very keen to go to South Korea and teach English. 
> 
> I think the reason that the girls are the way that they are is because that is our lifestyle, we work hard because we want to, not because the boss says so or because we are forced to, but simply because we are fascinated with the world and our own abilities. My view with the girls has always been to support whatever they are into provided that is not terribly dangerous or illegal. 
> 
> Our aim as parents is to enable our kids to be sensible, clear thinking, totally independent young ladies who do not have to rely on anybody to make their way through life. They must be equipped to earn their own money and to follow their own destiny without having to rely on a partner. They have to be able to stand tall and take their rightful place in life because they earned that right themselves.
> 
> ....and this is why I am intolerant of people who do not take responsibility for their own lives, your life is your own and no government nor deity is going to live it for you.... 
> ...


Can say the same with my daughters. I have always taught them from an early age that they need to put effort in to get a result. When ever my daughters came to me for an answer, even in maths, I never gave them the answer, against everyone's frustrations, but rather taught them how to get the answer. My wife use to say that I was lazy not to give the answer, and in short did not want the kids to bother me, in a way it is true, but is was more about getting them to look at the problem holistically, and to be able to troubleshoot on their own.

Today my 27 year old has a practice in biokenetics (3 years now), and was able to purchase a house cash, and pay for her wedding, all on her own steam. My 21 year old is about to finish her diploma in copyright and editing, has already been offered internship at 2 large advertising agencies, she has decided to go to Grey's because they have international offices, and she is eying that for her future.

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## HR Solutions

Agree with you Justloadit ...... I also did not just give them the answer to a problem, but would ask them how they would do it, tell them to try it and then more often than not, they would figure it out themselves, thereby empowering themselves.  Obviously if they really could not do it, Dad would guide them.

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## adrianh

When they come to me with science or math problems I always take the problem and frame it as a real world problem so that they get to understand the reasoning behind learning the methodology. I explained Pi to the little one by showing her how one would design a circular water container for the horses that has to hold 100 litres of water but cannot be taller than 300mm. The biggest problem is that the teachers are unable to frame the problem in a way that they are able to relate to it. Like Sine, it means nothing to them until you stick a mic into an oscilloscope and show them what happens when they pluck a guitar string.

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## desA

Pi R round
Bread R squared

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adrianh (13-Aug-14), OdetteBK (13-Aug-14)

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## OdetteBK

@ tec - cheers..
PS: is the R300K workshop per person or per group of.. say 10 and what is the duration of this workshop? If per person, what the hell are they learning? Rocket Science?

On a bright & positive note:
Adrianh, Justloadit & HR Solutions, I don't need to tell you but I am going to anyway... You can be so proud of your children the amazing job you all did in their upbringing! I so agree that it is all about upbringing. My mother me taught very early about self sufficiency. One her favourite sayings "A man must be in your life because you want him, not because you need him"  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):  My husband laughs at this as he reckons he wasn't taught anything similar because he needs me...

But moving along, we basically all agree that solutions start: 


> BY GETTING OFF YOUR COLLECTIVE ASSES, TAKING RESPONSIBILY FOR YOUR OWN LIVES AND REALIZING THAT THE WORLD OWES YOU NOTHING WHATSOEVER.

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## Justloadit

I think it is a psychological issue, "I hate the millionaire because he has got money and I have none", the fact that I stayed in bed and was lazy most days has nothing to do with the fact that I have nothing to my name.

I have been told a number of times, that I am 'Lucky' to have what I have, and that I was 'born with a silver spoon feeding me' or the other phrase "landed in a tub of butter".
Firstly, I created my own luck, but have lost a lot during the earning of luck, called school fees, and 
secondly, the only spoon feeding me after I was born, bless my mother that she always made sure I had food to eat, was a wooden spoon made by my father for the first few years of my life.

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OdetteBK (15-Aug-14)

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## adrianh

[QUOTE=OdetteBK;114431 "A man must be in your life because you want him, not because you need him"[/QUOTE]

I teach my girls exactly that.

The harder you practice the luckier you get!
- Gary Player

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OdetteBK (15-Aug-14)

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## ians

Havent got time to read through this whole thread. As i am sure some of you would have noticed i have been a little quite of late.I have been really busy. The more time i spend on site the more work keeps pouring in, just turned down a million bucks worth of work, just not enough resources and  my hobbies have taken off in fact to a point it is time to move to the next level. Simply solution employ more people...no thanks. The project i have just completed should have had at least 3 teams on site, in fact if the strike didnt stall the progress i would not have completed on time, so thanks to the strike i managed to finish by the time the striker returned, so the strikes are not all bad  :Smile:

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## Dave A

> The project i have just completed should have had at least 3 teams on site, in fact if the strike didnt stall the progress i would not have completed on time, so thanks to the strike i managed to finish by the time the striker returned, so the strikes are not all bad


Now *that's* what I call swimming against the tide  :Thumbup:

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## Agel#

"Let me control a peoples currency and I care not who makes their laws."  :Cool:

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## HR Solutions

> "Let me control a peoples currency and I care not who makes their laws."



Really ??

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## adrianh

> "Let me control a peoples currency and I care not who makes their laws."


You are right! Power vests in those who control the money!

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## Fanie

> Hi Fanie
> 
> Before I get into the business end of this email, the useful housekeeping stuff is at the bottom of the email. It might prove useful, especially if you haven't visited for a while or even forgot you ever joined The Forum SA as a member!
> 
> ==In this issue:==
> It is not often that I have to admit defeat, but it is clear this time I am beaten.
> 
> In my last message to the entire TFSA membership, I was really hoping to prompt a suggestion on how to break the vicious cycle our labour relations has fallen into.
> 
> ...


It is going to get a LOT worse.  The problem is an Afrikaner created one, and the solution is one that everyone who benefits from someone else's land doesn't want to admit to.

Restore the Boer Republics to the Boervolk as well as the others who are the rightfull land owners ie the Zulu's etc.

In case you do not know this, international Law that was instated in 1898 specify that no country may be occupied by others, not even through warfare, which was acknowledged by Britain as well.  

This means that the Boer Republics were supposed to be given back to the Boervolk in 1907, which never happened.  Through fraud the British set up the Union and appointed the Cape Dutch Afrikaner to suppress the Boervolk with force so they will never get their land back, the genocide that was carried out on the Boervolk in the concentration camps hence continue to this day where the Afrikaner broederbonders gets paid by the British "Crown" to prevent the Boervolk from getting their land back and attempt to destroy anything Boer - so that the "Crown" can continue their plundering of the Boer resources.

And before you get carried away by your Afrikaner "identity" - the word Afrikaner was derived from the Dutch word "Africaander" which simply means you were born in Africa, hence blacks are also Afrikaners.  The word today may be associated with "whites", but is no indication of any identity, and it was never recognized internationally to identify a specific group of people.  So the term "Afrikaner" remains a general term.

You can scream and shout and throw any tantrum you like, but if you plot the future of SA you can see where you are going to.  You cannot expect fraud to elevate conditions by inducing more fraud, so you will eventually be responsible for your own demise - or this discussion would not take place.


*The only solution to this systematic degradation of everything in SA will be to restore the Boer Republics to the Boervolk.*

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polpak (15-Sep-14), Slow Blow (13-Sep-14)

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## Chrisjan B

We life by the golden rule - they guy with the gold makes the rule.

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polpak (15-Sep-14)

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## adrianh

> *The only solution to this systematic degradation of everything in SA will be to restore the Boer Republics to the Boervolk.*


Wha ha ha...djy isse mos nou n snaakse oudjie!

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## Dave A

> It is going to get a LOT worse.  The problem is an Afrikaner created one, and the solution is one that everyone who benefits from someone else's land doesn't want to admit to.
> 
> Restore the Boer Republics to the Boervolk as well as the others who are the rightfull land owners ie the Zulu's etc.


This is going to solve our strike and labour relations problem?  :Confused: 

Kinda wondering if perhaps you posted in the wrong thread.

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## HR Solutions

Lol......

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## adrianh

> This is going to solve our strike and labour relations problem? 
> 
> Kinda wondering if perhaps you posted in the wrong thread.


...or planet!

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## polpak

Quote Originally Posted by Fanie View Post
The only solution to this systematic degradation of everything in SA will be to restore the Boer Republics to the Boervolk.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - 


While perhaps a grain of truth, this represents tinted vision, such resolution demands return to days of Adam and Eve, at same time acceptance we all related as their descendants. 

So not so practical a solution to problems faced today, except to those who plan return to living as hunter-gatherers, or same mystical manner of Adam and Eve.




Solution requires acceptance today is result of wrongs by all sides, with need some reasonable compensation to those wronged. 

Requires such claims set out, with reasonable compensation offered, with acceptance claims through this process to resolve claims, does NOT try turning clocks backwards.


Resolution accepts one or more ways, today we all benefit, despite mistakes of the past,  with improved lives.  


Part of my life was living in communities attempting same,  assure all is no-where near as easy, nor as desirable, even my relations who attempt live similar regularly seek out and enjoy today's benefits. 


Rare are those who advocate such who have lived it, let alone remain so living. 


.

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