# Regulatory Compliance Category > Consumer Protection Act Forum > [Question] Router purchase

## ians

I purchased a router from a company, whos name i wont mention until this issue is resolved.

I bought the biggest and best one ( cost just over R4000), so i thought, took it out the box and ran it, it sounded alright. So i "thought" it was fine.

I then put it into production within a week of purchasing it, however it stopped working, pulled the trigger the light came on indcating that it had power, so i unplugged the unit and returned it to the distributor, the workshop formean came out and took the unit from me and went to test it, a few minutes later he cam back and told me there was nothing wrong with it. So i took it back to my workshop and tried it again, it seem to work ok, finished doing what i had to do and packed it away, in the mean time i have purchased 2 other routers and mounted them under the table, so i havent needed to use the expensive one. Most of the work i have been doing requires the routers mounted under the table, but last week i had a some work which required the use if a hand router, so i took the router out the original box which it has been stored in since the last time i used it and tried to use it, click click, light on but the motor would not turn so i returned the router to the distributor again this time a little better prepared.

i must admit the first time the joke was on me and everyone found it rather amusing that the machine didnt actually have a fault, Well,  after being made a fool of in front of the staff at the counter, this time i knew what was going to happen so i got my assistant to film the machine in the workshop while it wasnt working, i made a point of changing extention cables to show them it wasnt the cable and plugged in a blower which worked fine, then plugged the router back in and filmed the trigger being activated and the the machine still not working, i also made a point of filming the bottom of the machine because the lights under the nachine where on indicating there was power to the machine. I am sure the guys on all the forums especially the green machine ones are gona love this video and add more fuel to why they only use festool products and not the blue one.

I drop off the router, a week later i get a call to collect my machine, i arrive at the counter and request my machine and want to know what they repaired, the lady behind the counter asks me if i use and extention with the machine, i just know where this is going, so i tell her, no, so just as i expected she then tells me she needs to call her boss. So i tell her i want to speak to the workshop manager instead because i would like to know what was wrong with the machine. They call the workshop manager and he tells me there is nothing wrong with the machine, THEY BANGED IT ON THE COUNTER SHOOK IT AROUND AND PULLED ON THE CABLE, (that is how they test intermitant faults on machines) and the machine still works and it doesnt cut out, this time not laughing at me.  So i go to my van and collect my phone which has the video footage, when i get back he tugs on the cable and tells me there is nothing wrong with the machine. I switch on the video and show him the video. while watching it he can see i am pulling the trigger but the machine is not switching on and i do this about 10 times, at that stage he asks me if maybe there is no power so as i knew this was going to happen, i unplug the router and plug in the blower to show ther eis power on the extention, i then lift the router in the video so you can see the work lights under the machine are on, suddenly now they sit with a mouth full of teeth because i dont think any customer has ever been so prepared, including myself, because i have been bullied on numerous occasion before by these people. and their excuses and blaming my staff for damaging the tools etc, heard it all.  

This is not the first time i have returned brand new equipment out the box, i purchased a bandsaw and 2 weeks later the led light packed up they had to supply parts so i could repair it. i also purchased a smaller router and returned it because there where loose parts and the bit holding pin would not secure the shaft so you could replce the bit, anyway i didnt want to get into a argument over it so i have just learnt to live with it and now use 2 spanners to replace bits, even though one of the selling points is the handy one hand bit bit changing facilty. 

My question, if i retrun a product within the six months of purchasing a product for a problem, they tell me there is nothing wrong with the machine, yet when i try use it again a few months later and it still has the same problem, what claim do i have? 

I do realise that i should have insisted they replace the machine but at the time but after the embarressment at the counter i just left. Trust me when i purchase something now and it makes a little buzz or doesnt sound 100 % correct it goes back and gets replaced. The last visit to builders express i made them take 3 machines out the boxes before i was satisfied with the one i took, it wasnt because i was being difficult, the brand new machines all had faults, which is actually quite sad considering there is suppose to be quality control checks before the product leaves the factory.

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## Dave A

If there's nothing wrong with the machine, it seems to me the problem is with the operating manual. What they need to add under the "before you return a unit as faulty, please check the following" section is:

If the LED light comes on indicating there is power to the machine, but the machine fails to operate, pull on the power cord and bang the unit on a table. This may fix the problem condition.

If you drop the unit from higher than 25 meters, it may even solve the intermittent fault permanently.

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tec0 (22-Jan-13)

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## adrianh

Ok, just a sideways thought. How does low voltage mains, power factor problems and noisy electricity affect machines. I have one PC that is connected to a CNC machine. When the PC is at a factory in town then the PC WILL NOT boot 99 out of 100 times, but, when I take the machine home and run it at home, it starts 100 out of 100 times. Other PCs are happy at the factory, it is just this one that wants to know absolutely nothing.

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## Blurock

> Ok, just a sideways thought. How does low voltage mains, power factor problems and noisy electricity affect machines. I have one PC that is connected to a CNC machine. When the PC is at a factory in town then the PC WILL NOT boot 99 out of 100 times, but, when I take the machine home and run it at home, it starts 100 out of 100 times. Other PCs are happy at the factory, it is just this one that wants to know absolutely nothing.


That must be an office PC. It is obviously not a factory worker. :Whistling:

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tec0 (22-Jan-13)

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## tec0

The reality is they gave you a poor excuse to begin with. The video is proof that there is something wrong and simple truth is you don't spend R4K on something just to give it back all the time. The six months is still under the year. Thus the Warrantee/Guarantee must still be active on it. 

Simply refuse to take it. There must be a written assurance that some product or service will be provided or will meet certain specifications on the paper work. Thus the company is obligated to follow trough. They have to send it back and let the factory do a test and replacement if needed. 

High end tools have websites. Have a look and see if you can't track down the South African distributor. Contact them directly.

If they want to become angry ask them for there "Competency certification" If they can test the equipment then they need to be authorized to do so. It is a simple truth. When they send it in you want a date and time this document must be signed by the responsible person. When it returns you want ALL the documentation. Troubleshooting that was done, there findings everything. If they cannot give you the paperwork chances are it never left the building.

Also start using the consumer council in your area to add the pressure so that they follow through on their obligation.


Best of luck.

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## ians

I spent a lot of money on my equipment and tools, because i believe to do a good job you need the right equipment, i have reached a point where i have realised that this product is no longer good enough to meet my standards of workmanship and will start with imediate effect replacing all this brand of equipment with festool products to meet my standards. I do realise it is going to cost me a little more, but hey at least i wont have to hassle with issues like the inside of the balde burning on the SP 6000, having to tighten the chuck after ever 3 rd hole i drill otherise the bit falls out, or have to use both tools loosen the bit on the router and most important accuracy, i will be able to actually see 2 lasor lines on the cutoff machine in a lit up enviroment. The benefits and accuracy should out way the additional cost.

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tec0 (22-Jan-13)

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## tec0

If it was me I would sell all the old stuff. The working stuff can go to the pawnshop. The stuff that is broken I will strip down for motors and copper and sell that. A friend of mine did this to all his old broken computers end of the day was able to get back a serious amount of money. 

Think about it.

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## vieome

On A side note 

Nytimes

Tech Shopping Rules of Thumb



* Pay for RAM, not speed. The speed of the computer chip does not matter; the attention-span or RAM memory does matter.

* Pay for messaging, not minutes. On your phone, your texting is more expensive than your voice time.

*Pay for components, not cables. Buy the best components, and the cheapest cables.

* Pay for speed, not channels. For cable internet, with enough speed you can watch TV channels on the internet for free.

* Pay for Applecare, not Mobileme. For Applefans, the Apple insurance is worth it, but their cloud service is not.

* Pay for screen size, not refresh rate. On TV screens, bigger size makes a difference while refresh rate does not.

* Pay for sensor size, not pixel count. On today's cameras you'll have enough megapixels; better quality comes from larger sensors.

500px Sensor sizes overlaid inside 1 svg

Relative sensor sizes in various camera families form here.

Those seven got me thinking about other tech shopping rules of thumb. Here are a few others that come to mind:

* Pay for reliability, not mileage. On a car, you'll spend more of repairs and maintaince over its lifetime than you will on a difference in gas.

* Pay for comfort, not weight. A bicycle's feather weight is moot once you add water bottle, a bag, any extra clothes you wear, while its comfort never disappears.

* Pay for foam, not down. The biggest difference in the warmth of a sleeping bag is the insulation under you, not the down over you.

* Pay for glass, not shutters. In professional cameras, great lenses endure, while the camera bodies change and go obsolete.

Any others?

From the comments (so far):

Pay for speakers, not the amp. When purchasing a sound system, better quality speakers will make more a difference than a better amp.

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## ians

Just for the record this is a wood router for carpentry.

Today i call the distributor to enquire about the machine, i am told the machine is ready for collection. I arrive to collect the machine and request a report, they give me an invoice with a nill balance, so i ask what they found wrong, i am told there is nothing wrong with the machine, they have totally stripped and physically checked every single wire and component on the machine and it is fine. So i load the machine in my van and head back to the workshop.

That is where the fun begins, maybe i have idiot written on my forehead, i arrive back at the workshop, switch the machine on and it  actually runs, i release the trigger and reactivate it, nothing dead as disco, i plug the machine into 3 different power sources, nothing dead as disco, so the fluke meter, test plugs, etc come out and i start verifying that there is not a volt drop which could cause the machine to stop running, 231 volts indicating on the screen , the led lights on the machine are on indicating that the the fault is not on the machine cable, i leave the machine in the state as it is with the led lights on the trigger activated fluke meter connected via my test rig, so that who ever they send can see for themselves that the machine is not working. I contact the distributor and i am put through to the boss man, who makes his way over to my workshop to see for himself what all the fuss is about. When he arrives the machine is still as i left it, he takes a look tries to ge tthe machine to work, no such luck. I disconnect everything, but before he leaves i tell him to watch carefully, i take the machine from him and plug it back into the same plug and tell him that i will put money on it that the machine will now run, i pull the trigger and it runs. Personally i believe  the machine should be replaced, but i was told they would replace a few parts and try again. What i find rather strange is that if they stripped and checked the machine and didnt find anything wrong, what parts are they going to replace? 

People wonder why i am now so fussy about stuff that i buy and why if the item has so much as a hair line scratch on it, it goes back and gets replaced before i have to waste hours running backwards and forward over a stupid little thing like this. I am in two minds whether i shouldnt just cut my loses and tell them to keep the machine, i have wasted so much time running back and forwards with this router. The amount time i have lost at work i could have just bought a new one.

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## ians

> On A side note 
> 
> 
> Pay for speakers, not the amp. When purchasing a sound system, better quality speakers will make more a difference than a better amp.


Just for the record this is the most expensive top of the range router that is available form this supplier, who would normally be rated just below festool, when it comes to quality of their products.

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## tec0

Well for me the best power tool makers are;

AEG 
Dewalt 
Makita 
Metabo 


Any one of them is well worth the investment.  :Yes:

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## IanF

Ian can't you get them to show you it working while in the shop? Then see if the same failure happens there?
If it was me I would ask for the money back.

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## Blurock

> Just for the record this is a wood router for carpentry.
> 
> Today i call the distributor to enquire about the machine, i am told the machine is ready for collection. I arrive to collect the machine and request a report, they give me an invoice with a nill balance, so i ask what they found wrong, i am told there is nothing wrong with the machine, they have totally stripped and physically checked every single wire and component on the machine and it is fine.


Why do we not name these guys who give bad service? Why should they stay anonymous if they are too lazy to pay attention to detail? But be consistent and also report good service. :Wink:

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## ians

> Ian can't you get them to show you it working while in the shop? Then see if the same failure happens there?
> If it was me I would ask for the money back.


Time...i am very busy at work and as i mentioned it would actually pay me to just dump the machine and buy a new.

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## ians

Got a call from the company today to inform me the router is ready, collected, but havent had a chance to test. 

Switch has been replaced and the speed controller, maybe 3 rd time lucky and only  about 2 weeks of lost production if the machine was on the line.

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## Justloadit

This type of fault, is a bitch to correct. If you can not identify the fault in the workshop, then it becomes a night mare, and to correct is to play it by the numbers. the only solution is to replace one item at a time. Unfortunately in this situation, it is a brand new machine, and does not warrant that the customer has to go through the heart ache of accepting the time required to figure it out. My feeling is that they should have issued a new unit, and then taken the time to find the problem. Once found, correct it, and then sell the unit as a demo price with a marked down price. The loss of the replacement would be minimal, but would have boosted customer relations.

There is no better advertising than by word of mouth.

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## Didditmiself

You said "it's quite sad considering there is supposed to be quality control checks before the product leaves the factory". There probably are the required checks but as is normally the case, worldwide, only a few out of each batch of most things today are checked randomly and based on the law of probabilities, if say 5 out of 100 are 'OK' then it is assumed that the other 95 are also 'OK'. It's just unfortunate that you may have got one of the 95. Because of various factors eg production targets, costs of production and of course quality of the raw materials to begin with, a lot of the stuff you buy now might have the German logo, look like the German product and have a manual with 56 different languages but in reality, the product is Chinese, made under licence. If you look at practically every brand of cellphone today, even the all all time favourites, the RIM Blackberry and Apple, the battery is Chinese and wrt the rest of the phone it probably says "assembled in China". I think one of the few true German electric tools / products still made totally in Germany is Metabo. Even Bosch of which I've sworn by, (which I now swear at) is now made in China. But there are still excellent products on the market but then be prepared to pay a lot for them. Never ever buy cheap hand tools. Most of what I have in my workshop cost me an arm and a leg. Marples wood chisels, Record 'G' clamps and bench vises, Stanley tape measures and planers, to name a few. But they will be used by my grand-children long after I've turned to compost. Buy the best you can afford. Even if it means having to wait a little longer to save up. I'm not saying you didn't go for the 'best', by the way. My point is that you may have got one of the '95' and that is just unfortunate.

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## ians

I agree i must have got one of the 5 % dud units, my concern however is that i have spent a lot of money on this brand and cant say that i am impressed, 2 out of the 3 routers i purchased of this brand had to be returned due to some fault found when i took it out the box, for example the "1 hand bit changing operation"  of the one router doesnt work and still doesnt work even after returning to the distributor, their response to the problem, if the bit is tight you have to use both spanners...mmm, the other problem was the machine had to go back to the worshop to tighten nuts and bolts, which apparently come loose during "transportation".

The drilling machine chuck works loose after a couple of holes and the bit falls out, no matter how tight you make it, i was told it is a "safety feature" funny i have never had this problem with my 14.4 volt nor my 22 volt hilti cordless drilling machines. This brand is the only one which doesnt have a battery indicator on their lithium batteries.

For the record these products are not DIY, they are industrial rated in other words designed to run a full 8/9 hours day continuosly.

The only reason i havent already moved over to festool product is because one of my suppliers indicated that if your festool product does go faulty or requires replacement parts due to wear and tear, you wait for spares, so it looks like a no win situation.

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## Didditmiself

OK so let's see; Green is usually Metabo or Bosch. Blue is usually AEG or Bosch Industrial. Orange/black is normally deWalt. Ryobi is Blue/black. Hitachi (I think) is blue.
Metabo: highly unlikely to be anything but perfect. deWalt, AEG and Hitachi likewise. So it's either Ryobi or Bosch. My moneys' on Bosch. Now made in China. Junk.(you mentioned the colour in your first posting) So don't buy it again. By the way, no powertools were harmed in the making of this assumption........ :Console:

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## Blurock

So which one is the son of a b!#ch that we should avoid? Who gives such poor service?

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## ians

Makita...very sad, considering i have been using this product for so many years and like most things have always trusted it as a good quality product. I sold all my older machines and been upgrading to the newer models, i should have held onto the older stuff.

I have always rated Makita for woodworking, the older mitresaws LS 1013 which had the slides under the platform, the 3612 router had one for years never had a problem, the old "industrial" belt sander still works to this day, and as for the old 800 watt hammer drill, that machine was unbeakable.

Hilti for concrete and brick work, one thing i can say about HIlti if it wasnt for their shocking service from the reps and rep turnover rate they would be my first choice with any machine as their backup service speaks for itself when it comes to repairing old and new machines (yet to have a return) They have a repair warranty in place which makes them the leaders in the construction industry.They put their money where their mouth is when it comes to backing up the quality of their product. The only bummer is the service centre is in JHB and they dont do all the wood working tools.

and fluke for test equipment, their newer products come in "plastic", so i am glad i still have the older equipment which like the fluke 435 comes in a military spec pelican case. The only problem with fluke equipment is it normally gets stolen before it breaks.

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## Blurock

My experience is that it is often the agent or distributor that lets the brand down. If the agent in this case replaced the item without a hassle, you would not have a problem with the brand. Have you tried to escalate the query?

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## ians

In this case it is the brand which is faulty out the box (shouldnt be)  then having to deal with the distributor. If the product is any good, you shouldnt need to be takin it back.

I am learning slowly which products work the best from which supplier, for example, if i wanted a 10.8 v cordless impact driver, i wouldnt even look anywhere other than bosch, if it is cordless drill in the 18-22 volt range, Hilti would be my first choice.

When it comes to small chipping machines, i have to give makita credit for the small chipper, we hammer it all day long and never had a problem. 

For dustless chasing, i have both the makita  and Hilti sets, the makita vacuum is absolutley useless for masonary work after the second time on site it burnt out, i no longer use it on construction sites. The Hilti vacuum has been on site since 1996 and it is still working, but i had to use the Hilti in the wood working side of the workshop, within a couple of hours the Hilti cut out because the filter was blocked even though the base was not full, i have never had this problem with the makita vacuum it runs in the wood side without a problem, so at the end of the day you need to find what works for the application.

It is just very dissapointing when you buy something and have to take it back out the box.

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## Didditmiself

And the dealer was?

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## ians

Rutherfords

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Didditmiself (30-Jan-13)

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## Dave A

> For dustless chasing, i have both the makita  and Hilti sets, the makita vacuum is absolutley useless for masonary work after the second time on site it burnt out, i no longer use it on construction sites. The Hilti vacuum has been on site since 1996 and it is still working, but i had to use the Hilti in the wood working side of the workshop, within a couple of hours the Hilti cut out because the filter was blocked even though the base was not full, i have never had this problem with the makita vacuum it runs in the wood side without a problem


Out of idle interest, does the Makita vacuum use a paper or material filter? I'm guessing the Hilti clogged because it has a material filter and the sharp nature of wood shavings and saw dust would tend to snag in the fabric and not be shaken off by the beater.

I have to endorse what you say about the Hilti vacuum cleaner - for masonry and fine dust it's an absolute marvel.

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