# Regulatory Compliance Category > BEE and Employment Equity Forum >  Labour on release of Employment Equity Report to M Mdladlana by J Manyi

## I Robot

Remarks on releasing the 2007/08 Employment Equity Report,        speech given by Employment Equity Commission (EEC)       Chairperson, Jimmy Manyi at Pretoria, Laboria House   

  16 September 2008 

More than ten years into our democracy, institutional racism continues to reign supreme. The only difference is that previously it was more overt, but now it has assumed sophisticated forms in day-to-day work practices. 

More...

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## Dave A

An "interesting" assumption as to the cause of disproportionate representation by race etc at the top management level in particular.  :No: 

Does Jimmy know that "racism" is characterised by active and deliberate preference of individuals by virtue of their race?

If companies are practicing racism in their hiring/appointment selection, for goodness sake Jimmy, charge them. It's time loose allegations like these get tested in court or come to a stop.

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## njabulo mabaso

If God is on our side who can be against us?

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## Dave A

Philistines and other heathens mostly  :Stick Out Tongue:

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## Dave A

Or probably more relevant - from Political bullshit:



> *God (n.)* A mysterious entity that some people believe created the universe. God also provides the authority for many of our behavioural rules and acts as guarantor of post-mortem survival of the spirit. This potent hurrah word is often invoked to lend cosmic significance or moral cartainty to some iffy enterprise. God is always on the side of the speaker.


Welcome to TFSA, Njabulo  :Wave:

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## Muzi Oscar

Dave.
We can't be naive and think that "racism" can be proved in courts. That will be assuming that everyone tells the truth before the courts, which is never the case. In fact everyone tends to "defend" themselves before the courts.
I think our fellow white citizen must stop taking offense on these progressive policies like BEE, EE, Skills Development, etc. Because the alternative to these is what happened in Zimbabwe. We need to think of ourselves as South Africans and do whats right. It does not take a rocket scientist to evaluate that exclusion or sidelining is bad.
This is obviously more complex than just looking at the numbers in the reports as there are a lot of dynamics involved. The company i work for had 5 african professionals resigning last year alone claiming they were not treated the same as their other collegues. And you hear riduculous claims that African Professionals are job hoppers!!! Go to Parastatal organisation and government departments and see how many people stay long if conditions are acceptable and how quickly they leave if they are not.

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## Dave A

You make good points, Muzi. Besides which it seems tough enough to get matters *into* court of late, let alone proving them  :Stick Out Tongue: 

What frustrates me is there is clear evidence of significant progress at entry, lower and middle levels - it's at the top management apex level where transformation seems to be dragging. But it *is* an apex point. It relies on being fed from those lower levels. It shouldn't be a "surprise" or disappointment that transformation at apex levels is lagging behind other levels.

I feel like instead of celebrating some fairly significant transformation progress, Jimmy & co. are stuck on focusing on the level that was always going to be at the end of queue. Yes, the job isn't done until we see that level transformed too. Yes, we can't rest on our laurels until the job is done right the way through.

But we're not failing - we're succeeding. It might not be as quick as some had hoped, but there is significant progress. It never was going to be an overnight thing.

Maybe I just need to be less sensitive  :Embarrassment:

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## Marq

> I think our fellow white citizen must stop taking offense on these progressive policies like BEE, EE, Skills Development, etc. Because the alternative to these is what happened in Zimbabwe. We need to think of ourselves as South Africans and do whats right. It does not take a rocket scientist to evaluate that exclusion or sidelining is bad.


The policies of bee and ee do just that - sideline and exclude. How can you tell us these are progressive policies and that the white citizens should not take offense? 

There must be a better mechanism to create transformation that involves all, enables skills development and reduces the racial tension and resentment that seems to be growing rather than dissipating. These policies are a reminder of job reservation and signs that now say blacks only - where have we seen that before?

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## Muzi Oscar

Dave
"Blacks actually decreased by 8,7 percentage points from 50,0 percent to 41,3 percent at the professionally qualified and middle management level."
There is an increase in Top & Senior management in fact. But a huge decrease in Professionals & Middle management level. This tells me there is not continuity and companies are doing as little as possible to meet the minimum requirements. They take a handfull of "black" professionally qualified and move them up the ranks without filling the gaps behind. Thats why you see a slight increase in the "apex" and worstning situation in Middle management. If you look at the ratios of black graduates compared to white graduates that leave Universities and Technikons it totally changes when it gets to entering the job market. If you look at the number of black Professionally qualified people in parastatals and private companies that deal directly with government its more representative of graduate ratios. So why are other private organisations struggling to recruit black professionals and middle managers? There is now WILL. Thats's they need to be "forced" with legislations.

Marq,
If you don't think correcting the damage apartheid did to our country than you are admitting that you fully supported it. Did you actively oppose Apartheid? I doubt.... 
The mistakes of the past were racial, to correct them you do need to look at racial representation otherwise you will always have a group of citizens who believe they are superior to other groups. There is no other way. If "prevelaged whites" took initiative and volunteered to correct the imbalances caused by politicians, there will be no need to get politicians involved (no need for legislation). By the way things are going now, these legislations will be needed for much longer.
You need to also remember that these legislations were agreed in CODESA as forms of reconciliation and rebuilding the country to represent everyone that leaves in it equally. These are much better than civil wars we have seen in other parts of the world and forcefull removals of people from their properties.

These are necessary Marq. You need to drive around all corners of this country to realise that. If you keep to your comfortable home or surbub and assume that everyone lives like that, you won't find it in your heart to do a little bit you can to take us all forward.

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## Marq

Muzi,
Certainly I did not and do not support apartheid or any of its results, quite the opposite. As usual you judge me as guilty because I am white, when you do not even know me, my past or what I have or have not done. Unfortunately this is done as general rule and is one of the underlying problems in society in our country. 

What I am saying is that we are correcting the situation by a complete reversal of roles, which is like two wrongs do not make a right. I feel that there should be a better way of going about this. 

We now have a group of white citizens, many of whom had nothing to do with the previous scenario, many of whom did not support the previous regime, many of whom are not the privileged people you believe them to be and most of whom agree that we need to right the wrongs that were created. To lump all whites into the same group and say they no longer count, no longer have a say and disregard their input without regard to their support to the situation is what is cause for concern.

I cannot speak for them, but it would appear that our other racial groups are also still sidelined and do not feel that they have a future in the country either.

It was the same group of politicians who created the problem situation that agreed to the terms on how to uncreate it. While it may have seemed to be the correct or only way forward at the time, we are now 15 years down the road and perhaps this is a time to review how the inclusion of all people can be made to alleviate the continual underlying racial tones, skill shortages and current unjust situations that seem to be out there. I believe bee and aa policies are just creating a new selection of a few privileged people, and people round the corner as you put it, are never going to see any benefit. The current unhappiness and unrest with regard to service delivery is one of the signs of this. We still have unrest in the universities and education is a huge concern for all. Labour, unions and the general workforce are still crying out with the unfairness of wage splits, increases and management conduct. CEO's and top management of all the large parastatals, municipal bosses, and large coprporations, all of whom are bee compliant, award themselves rewards way beyond any market justification in the name of righting the wrongs of the past, while the workers are left out in the cold as usual. Is this all the fault of the previous regime or is this the greed and fault of the new one?   

I don't believe the current forcing of the situation to recruit more black professions in middle management is the answer. If one takes the accounting world as an example, it would appear that the number of qualified accountants are few and these are being recruited firstly by the top accounting firms, then the large corporations who can offer nice packages and a good percentage are finding their way overseas. There are just not enough to go round. To now force a situation of employing someone who is perhaps not suited or qualified for a position can only lead to a potential problem and I don't believe that this augers well for the future.

There is only a whip and threat scenario for private companies and individuals to 'conform'. At this stage it would appear that retribution for the past will only be resolved when all whites have been removed from the land and from business, sitting in a poor unprivilege scenario. Then will the majority be happy? What is there for a future which appears to have no happy resolution for the minority? At what stage or by what time period will bee and aa and white persecution be removed? When will their 'sentence for crimes committed' actually be imposed. 

Surley there is a better scenario by utilising the skill set available and allowing those perceived to have obtained education and privilege by unfair means to correct the situation properly, rather than force them or exclude them out of the equation.

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## IanF

Muzi
I am busy reading  Atlas Shrugged by Ayn Rand. My description so far is it the animal farm of socialism. There they put the good of the people above everything else. I am at the part where society is falling apart due to social engineering and centralised control. The one thing that struck me,  was a meeting with the captains of industry, government and the unions. Unions where insisting on a 10% pay hike but industry couldn't raise prices to cater for it plus the unions wanted guaranteed jobs. Make profit is not socially good. Now all the industry leaders are resigning. I will finish the book but it is heavy reading.

What struck is the similarities with SA. Unions on strike for more wages and students rampaging against fee increases. WTF guys catch a wake up. Now the question is what do the business owners do, I have heard of people closing down companies when they had an adverse CCMA ruling which they didn't agree with, I don't know if that is true or an urban legend. But what is going to happen if business owners just stop employing more people or just close down. Look at Zimbabwe. 

Look at the waste of money, millions to D Mpofu from SABC now transnet paying millions for some deal not done. My hope was after 1994 we would have such economic growth we all have to get everyone who is able into business to run it as there would be no choice, what a win-win scenario. But we seem to be on the same path as the rest of Africa with the general populace not being much better off than they were, and the elite becoming more distant from the man in the street. It just seems as soon as something goes wrong then we blame apartheid, racists and the British, instead of using the problems as learning opportunities to help everyone grow. Now if the principles of ubuntu, could be applied that would be great. Look at wikipedia article "a person is a person through (other) persons". 

In essence instead of using the past to shape the future a more pragmatic approach of the future being shaped in the spirit of ubuntu.

Muzi this is my take as a white South African am I wrong in saying lets try and forget the past and get on with the future?

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## Muzi Oscar

Marq,
Its your views that inform me that you are not willing to embrace transformation. And its a view that is shared by a majority of white South Africans. I work in a firm of about 120 permanent staff, 108 of which are white. So I am very familiar with these views. If you grew up in Soweto, Emlazi or KwaLanga then I will accept that you were not preveleged in any form. But if you grew up in so called "white" surburbs and went to a "white" school, then you are preveleged. And being preveleged does not mean you have things easy. You still had to work hard at school, impress in an interview and even work harder in your job or business. Being preveleged might mean you went to a better school, you had more than one meal a day, etc. to support you in doing the HARD bit that you had to do. And that prevelege came in many forms from having preveleged parents (who were put in better position by the government of their time).

There is nothing wrong with being preveleged, in fact everyone must be preveleged and people must brag about being preveleged because its good. BUT when you do not want other people to be preveleged too, it becomes a problem.

If you look at BEE, EE, AA, etc policies, they don't say fire white people and employ black people. Because if it was that easy, it would take a year to complete. What these policies ask for is for companies to pay attention to representation when recruiting. They ask companies to have long term transfomation plans and impliment them. These policies are there to level the play field. They don't say if you have unqualified black candidate competing with a white candidate, employ the black candidate. Instead they say if you have equally qualified and experienced candidates consider transfomation. If they were that forcefull we would be seeing the department of labour taking companies to court for breaking the law.

There is a group of white people that is lagging behind if you use the apartheid times as your "barometer". They are lagging behind now because the play field is a bit more level now then it was in the past. The white people that are pushing harder in the current scenario are doing even much better for themselves. 

What I think you don't understand is that apartheid helped the poor white people more than the rich white people as the aim was to ensure there is no poor whites. Unlike apartheid, BEE, EE, AA, etc. help those who want to help themselves without really putting anyone in a disadvantage position. They acourage Equality and Fairness as oppose to the media belief that they discriminate unfairly.

The myth that no matter what your qualifications and experience is, if you are white you will be in a disadvantave is just that - a myth. Because if that was the case, you will also have white people with degrees working as waiters, petrol attendants, car washers, machine operators, etc.

And skills shortage problem is there because big business are no longer willing to absorb as much graduates as they did in the past. The ones they do absorb are not representative (politically) of the numbers that graduate.

The "majority" does not want to see "all whites have been removed from the land and from business, sitting in a poor unprivilege scenario". They want the privilege to be extended to them as well.

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## Muzi Oscar

Ian,

Its a bit more compicated than just saying forget the past and move on.
Lets say we do that and look at the following scenarios:
John's father got a foreman position in a factory in Germiston in 1981 because he is white, (against Sipho's father who had the same experience as an operator in the same factory as John's father). By 1994 John's father was a production manager and John completed his Matric in a private school. By 2009 John was a Middle Manager in a JSE listed company.
On the other hand, after matric in 1994 Sipho's father could not afford tertiary education for Sipho because the previous government did not allow his income to grow as John's father did. Now Sipho is working as a machine operator and in 2009 he just got promoted to Production Manager with the help of EE or AA policies. Even though he could not achieve what John has achieved, at least the poverty chain is broken as he can save for the education of his children.

Now, if in 1994 the new government said "forget about correcting the past" do you think Sipho's bosses who (not their fault, but being socially engineered by apartheid) trully believe that black people are not as capable as white would have promoted Sipho without being pointed to that direction. i doubt.... Apartheid will still haunt us, at least the current generation.

So, Ian, lets think a little bit deeper before formualting our beliefs.

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## Marq

Muzi - there you go again assuming that you know me and accusing me of things you know nothing about. 

You state your belief in what these policies are and are not, yet you do not live on the other side of them. Sort of similar to your reasoning of living in Soweto Vs the white suburbs. I could say the same of your views and by what you say see that you are resentful and believe you are haunted by apartheid, whether you were there or not. I can also see that you do not understand the policies and their methods of implimentation, but this is not helpful to finding a solution of a way forward that will get everybody on track.

I lost my job as a result of black empowerment and bee policy. I can no longer get a job within the corporate world as a result of aa policy. My wife received the same deal. I became insolvent as a result and eventually came right thanks to friends. I have worked tables and done all the things you assumed me not to have done and as you quite rightly say, am stronger and wiser than before. My children battle to find their way mainly as a result of being white and the policies you say work for all, held against them.

I would say I am saddened at the situation rather than resentful and if you think I have not embraced your methods of transformation, maybe the situation above can tell you why. I am saying that transformation could have been handled differently and in a manner where all can embrace the situation. No one doubts the unfairness and situations that the past created, but all that is being done now is to blame the white man, no matter his background, whether he was there or wasn't and create the same scenario for him now.

The fact of the matter is that, here are two professional people, one with a masters degree, that are no longer required in your world of transformation. We have found a different way of life and do stuff that hopefully keeps us out of this one sided affair. 

As one idea though, why instead of this insistence to take over these 'white' companies, is there not a trend to start up 'black' companies, taking advantage of the grants, networks and government backing that is out there and forming a general competition scenario which would eventually lead to synergistic practices benefiting all. Sure where there is limited resources another scenario has to be introduced but for the majority of situations, is this not a potential methodology that could work. If there are all the graduates that can no longer be absorbed, why can they not utilise their skills to start up their own firms.

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## Dave A

One thing is certain - there *are* two sides to this story. At least!

I hope as we put our "side" and ideas forward, we're listening closely to what the "other side" is saying too.

When I hear of a company of 120 permanent staff and 108 are white - well that's plain disappointing. There may be valid reasons why there is so little transformation, but to question that there are still companies of this size with this sort of profile in this day and age is valid too. And certainly it's hard to deny that the legacy of apartheid is the original root cause.

Now here's where I'm probably going to run foul of Muzi... Assuming it's subliminal racial prejudice (or worse) that is maintaining this situation, can we regulate that racial prejudice away?

I'm inclined to think regulation is having the opposite effect.

That mix is the symptom of deeper underlying problems, and that is what we need to attack with all the power we can muster. Regulation at this level might shift the numbers, but it's not going to solve the underlying root problems unless it tackles those problems directly.

I believe great structures need solid foundations. Taking short-cuts produce weak results - mediocre at best, and not enduring. So with this in mind I'd attack these two prime priorities.

*Ensuring access to education.*
We need to equip people to realise their potential regardless of their economic circumstance. In differentiating the support required from the state to achieve this, I'd see the problem as a class problem, not a racial challenge.

*Build goodwill towards each other.*
Oh boy - a tough one. But somehow we've got to stop seeing each other as the enemy; we need to see each other as allies, compatriots, comrades, joined in a quest for great things for ourselves and each other.

Regulation may superficially paper over the cracks in our society, but to truly mend the harm that has been done to our people, we need to fix our scarred hearts.

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## IanF

This is a great debate and good to listen to the other side.
What I see is both sides digging in their heels and not listening to the points put across. There are lots of mistakes and problems with the AA, BBEE, EE implementations which upsets me, then this is just papered over and ignored.
I must also understand the hardships suffered by the PDIs of the country and see how this affected them and still does affect them.

But we mustn't reduce everything to the lowest common denominator as the government is always threatening. Rather use the spirit of ubuntu to prove that we won't become just another African basket case by embracing the future.

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## Muzi Oscar

Marq - I think you are amplifying myths. BEE & BBBEE could not have cost you your job as these policies only look at "ownership". 
Now, what was your employers reason to terminate your service? Did they explicity say we need to replace you with a black person? If that is the case, you have tangable evidence that you were unfairly dismissed - and your case have merits to make it to court. Remember that there is a lot of misinterpretations of policies in South Africa and those that challenge decisions set presedence for other people and make the public aware. Remember people of Chinese origin only got "black" last year, if no one stood up and said something they will still be neglected. By the way white women are "black" too, so black in these policies means PDI as opposed to race. Most companies (including the one I work for) have excellent EE acreditation by flooding positions with white women. So i am supprised you say your wife was a "victim"
If its just your perception that you lost your job because you are white, then you are contributing to emplifiying the myth.

Nowhere in AA, EE policies does it say fire white people to get black people. In some instances where companies see that it will take too long for a white person in certain position to retire, they are offered early retirement packages - NOTE this is different from retrenchment, it can not be forced on you if you do not want to retire. And retrenchment needs to come with sastifactory reasons - AA & EE are legally not those reasons.

Having Black & White companies futher divides the country (its already doing that). I will prefer having South African companies. If you look at major projects, there is a lot of Black & White companies forming Joint Ventures just to meet the BEE criteria. But this debate is about Employment Equity - its separate from BEE. In a project i am currently doing for Transnet in PE we are dealing with one of these Joint Ventures. Only ownership is Black Empowered, at operational level i am the only black person in the project. So, you need to understand & separate these policies. Now how did my white collegues suffer from BEE?

Dave: Build goodwill towards each other is the fundamental foundation. Like I earlier said, its the WILL that's lacking. Policy will only achieve minimum requirements, but the WILL can achieve greater things. But you can only remove the policy when the will is evident. 
And as soon as we stop seeing each other as threats or competetors (as you said) we can achieve a lot much smoother without the ministers throughing tentrams over EE reports.

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## Marq

There is a vast difference between what the policies say, what the legal side says and whats practiced. 

When you sit, as I did in a company that follows BEE practice, scorecards etc and claims to be black empowered, then they automatically start looking at edging out the white element and introducing your new manager and co workers. Firstly there is no more advancement for a white guy - if he just sits in a position he will remain there forever at that level, be sidelined etc. Secondly his salary will start to be reduced in relation to his co workers on the same level. Thirdly he is threatened and harassed with warning letters and hearings for things he did not do. All these things, I experienced until suddenly one day I was 'retrenched', given a package, sign a deal that says there will be no come backs and bye bye thanks for the memory. One could have fought this and claimed foul in terms of bee policies and unfair labour practice, unfair dismissal, but now we are talking lawyers fees, postponements of hearings and much time wasting, denial and proof etc with a potential no result, cause my lawyers bigger than your lawyer scenario exists. 

For my wife it was a case of a joint venture scenario to obtain bee status where the smaller company where she worked got the retrenchment deal.

Now you start looking around and the first thing that you are made aware of is that you cannot apply for that job you may have your eye on because it is reserved for an aa position only...sorry, try again next week - maybe a company that is not worrying about bee or aa will have a position for you. Try that for a month or so and see if you do not feel that you should be in another country rather.

So you see, as much as you may want to believe these stories to be myths and urban legend, they are the reality that is out there. 
_



			
				Some people allege that skilled white people are leaving the country because of a lack of opportunity due to BEE policies.


Black and white people are affected. There is no incentive to stay in the country if you know the top jobs go to the elite and their cronies. Affirmative action and BEE policies have become the inside track for the elected few.

At the moment there are 500,000 unfilled professional vacancies. Every professional who is employed, can create a job opportunity for others who are less skilled.

South Africa is becoming a de-industrialised country. We depend on imports rather than exports. In 1985, 31 percent of our gross domestic product came from the manufacturing sector. Now it is only 16 percent. Thousands have lost their jobs. Our footwear manufacturing industry has collapsed and those who are skilled in making footwear have disappeared. We are going backwards.

Yes, it is cheaper to import many products than to manufacture them, but it is a self-defeating argument. People are losing their jobs and people without jobs are anyway not in a position to buy those imported goods.

The elite have become consumers who live off systems that were created before 1994. They do not see themselves as producers and they do not start new businesses. more here


_ 
This is from an interview with Moeletsi Mbeki, brother of Thabo Mbeki. His book on these issues and policies is called 'Architects of Poverty'. According to him, it is about perpetuating a system that induces racism, socialism and keeps the minority at bay. It is about allowing a few white South Africans to feel less guilty about a system very few had control of, a few black South Africans the opportunity to advance and a majority of people the opportunity to suffer some more while the white man is 'punished' for what he has done.





> _As things stand today, most BEE players have nothing more than golf course tips to share with their children. How sad!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> When a black man tells the world that white people are not doing enough to make him rich, what message is he sending to future generations of black South Africans? Is it that black people today are not capable of making money for themselves?
> 
> This sort of attitude reflects the current black economic empowerment (BEE) state of mind, which is the attitude of some black people who opt for the easy way to wealth: buy small portions of companies owned or run by white people, sit back and voila! In a few years' time you become a millionaire._


_
_
Two more quotes - this time from Jabulani Sikhakhane - here. Said in 2006 already.

Now tell me that these two are spreading myths and don't know what bee is really all about. Tell me that very nature of bee and aa does not automatically create a racial and threatening problem by their very nature.

Remove these policies and you will remove the threats and racial tension designed by the elite to create gain for themselves only. The other sad part about these policies is that these elite have managed to get the people to buy into the idea and propagate it amongst all. 
With these forced racial policies out the way, we will be able to move forward together and build this Country properly, with a decent outlook for all, with a more trusting attitude towards each other and a genuine Will to create a positive secure life for all.

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## Dave A

Just an aside:



> Marq - I think you are amplifying myths. BEE & BBBEE could not have cost you your job as these policies only look at "ownership".


That was narrow based BEE. B-BBEE was supposed to stop that narrow scope and we've now got 7 areas that are assessed. Still heavily weighted towards ownership, but it does cover other relevant stuff.



> By the way white women are "black" too, so black in these policies means PDI as opposed to race.


I believe that has come to an end too, although I'll be delighted to be corrected.

However, as you say - we're dealing primarily with EE here.



> But you can only remove the policy when the will is evident.


I think most of the buggers without the will have left. We're approaching a chicken and egg situation - something/someone has got to break the cycle.

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## Muzi Oscar

firstly BEE & EE policies have achieved to create more than 5million new "black middle class" enabling the economy to grow steadily untill the recent global meltdown (see how dangerous to only depend on exports? it also gives too much power to countries you trade with and they destroy you in a year if they want like they did to Zimbabwe. Balanced trade is more important)
Elected Elite argument is not Valid - Its a resentful Media Urban Lgend.

Please remind Mr Mbeki that in 1985 we were excluded from the world - and therefore forced to "do things ourself". And also tell him that 31% of 100 = 31 and 16% of 500 = 80 which is bigger 31 (my point being our GDP is more than 5 times what it was in 1985). Tell him i don't think Patrice Motsepe is a consumer who lives off systems that were created before 1994 - because I know he bought non-profiting mines and turned them around to make himself a Billionaire (to do that you will need to know more than playing golf).
People like him (there were lot in the apartheid era), lack decency to really look at things and analys them. He wants to sell his books - good for him - BUT not in expense of other people. A pychologist once told me "sub-conscious mind is a powerful idiot and conscious mind is a powerless genius". Steve Biko was removed too early from us because preached consciousness to reverse the most powerfull tool of apartheid - slavery of the mind. And people like Mr Mbeki's sub-conscious minds tells them its ok to say things like "When a black man tells the world that white people are not doing enough to make him rich, what message is he sending to future generations of black South Africans? Is it that black people today are not capable of making money for themselves?"
To them, white people got wealth purely because of their genius minds - it had nothing to do with historic occurances like Apartheid, Slavery, etc... During the hard times in this country people like him got burned with tyres (those that burnt could not understand why a black man can be so anti black - cause they also did not know any better, except that their minds were more free).

"This sort of attitude reflects the current black economic empowerment (BEE) state of mind, which is the attitude of some black people who opt for the easy way to wealth: buy small portions of companies owned or run by white people, sit back and voila! In a few years' time you become a millionaire." Being involved in MLM business, I know that black people are not lazy as the myths says. In MLM, the play fields are really leveled... and biggest MLM organisation in SA (IFA of Clentele Life) is massively black dominated. Not all black people are Investors, and there is nothing wrong with being as Investor - remember you get financial freedom, you need to use Other Peoples Money or Other Peoples Time. If you have something to invest and you want to go the OPM route, go for it. If you are Kaiser Motoung and build an organisation from scratch with the OPT option, go for it. We can not resent people for having high financial IQ, just because we are programmed to "work hard" in a job (Clearly Mr Mbeki does not know this).

So, lets not pretend white people did it on their own..... Because they did not - They took advantage of opportunities that favoured them. And most will not agree with me, because the powerfull idiot (sub-consious mind), tells them they did it because they are Superior.

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## Muzi Oscar

Quote:
Originally Posted by Muzi Oscar  
By the way white women are "black" too, so black in these policies means PDI as opposed to race. 

I believe that has come to an end too, although I'll be delighted to be corrected.
Dave: Not yet, thats why it was in last year report. But all groups will eventually - one by one - come to an end. That's the goal. Who comes out means they are fairly represented.

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Dave A (19-Sep-09)

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## Dave A

I've wondered at times how much Steve Biko's statements were aimed at changing how people see *themselves* rather than commenting on how they perceive *others* to see them.

Eleanor Roosevelt's comment - "No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." is so true. And self-image is such a powerful part of Martin Luther King's "I have a dream" speech.

I find commentary that whites see themselves as superior quite disturbing. Sure, there are some whites that might hold those thoughts even today, but it's the exception rather than the rule. I really get a sense that Steve Biko was bigger than that. He was viewed as a threat by the old regime precisely because he *didn't* have an inferiority complex; that was his power.

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## IanF

Muzi
You seem hell bent on saying the current path of BEE etc. is the only way. Do you not have any other way forward to offer?

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## Dave A

> Muzi
> You seem hell bent...


Let's go gently, please. I think we're still in the "getting to know you" stage.

One of my criticisms of BEE implementation as we have seen it is trying to rush results before their time. Let's avoid making a similar error here.

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## Muzi Oscar

Dave:
quote "I find commentary that whites see themselves as superior quite disturbing. Sure, there are some whites that might hold those thoughts even today, but it's the exception rather than the rule. I really get a sense that Steve Biko was bigger than that. He was viewed as a threat by the old regime precisely because he didn't have an inferiority complex; that was his power".

I am not saying all whites see them selves that way. But if anti-blacks quotes like Mr Mbeki's are used to undermine all black people, Liberated black people will defend...
We need to remember that White Supremacy was fought against by mainly white countries in world war II (though it was dubbed Fascism, Hitler was a white supremacist).
And Black supremacy was fought by black people like Martin Luther king & Malcom X (remember Malcom X was killed by his own people in The Nation of Islam because (like Steve Biko) he was against any "Supremacy" black or white. 
But if you listened to speeches that were given at Michael Jackson's memorial you must have noticed the Black Supremacy element from that Pastor (forgot his name). It made me uncomfortable like white supremacy makes you. But can we deny that it is there? I don't think so. We need to challange it and opportunist charecteristics that turn anything to racial devide (like those that use Mr Mbeki's quotes to undermine black people).

BEE is not a racial devide as it is perceived. Its groups includes, whites, africans, indians, mixed race, chinese, etc......

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## IanF

> Quote:I believe that has come to an end too, although I'll be delighted to be corrected.
> Dave: Not yet, thats why it was in last year report. But all groups will eventually - one by one - come to an end. That's the goal. Who comes out means they are fairly represented.


Muzi
If you use your crystal ball do you see 50 years in the future that there will be a program for white males who have legally been discriminated against since democracy. Will this process go the full circle and just perpetuate itself?
Anyway I vote for a normal society where we look past race etc. and just get on with life

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## Dave A

When you read this story around Obama and the Republican resistance to his healthcare proposals, you wonder if it will ever come to an end.

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## Muzi Oscar

"Eleanor Roosevelt's comment - "No one can make you feel inferior without your consent." is so true. " It is true, but if you look at Southern African context where black people had 12 years of mental conditioning to thinking they did not contribute to civilazation and were less intellectually capable - I am talking about Bantu Education, false history (they mistrify who built Pyramids in Egyt, ruined walls in Zimbabwe, stolen ancient books from Mali found in Engalnd, Mining activies in Mapungubwe, Egyptian collection museum in Berlin that Arab Egyptians will never make an effort to claim cause it does not have Arabs, hiding race of invetors [traffic lights, escalators, light bulbs,etc.] etc.). 

We can't say black people gave consent in all these instances now, can we? You can not deny that history has succeeded in undermining the black race. And not every black person will search for truths in history. Some will fall in cracks like Mr Mbeki....

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## Marq

> I think we're still in the "getting to know you" stage.


Dave - I think we are a bit beyond that here. Muzi has done nothing to get to know anyone and has accused me of various racial slants from the start, refuses to accept that another side actually exists. Its a pity that he is not able to defend bee and aa policy without that personal attack and jibe every time or being able to see beyond its real motives or understand the effects it really is having on other race groups.

A typical blinkered view, introducing race superiority and supremacy into a debate that does not call for it, offering nothing to defend the policies besides revenge for the past, convinced that it includes all when it does not and offering nothing as an alternative, having completely missed the point. It is a stubborn stance, dragging the past forward into the future as a result of racial fear, no different to the apartheid regime. It perpetuates racial tension and does not allow sight into the issues at hand for a real new South Africa where all can play a part and live in harmony.

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## Dave A

:Hmmm: 



> I think we're still in the "getting to know you" stage.


OK. Let's try putting this another way.

In order for us to have a constructive discussion, we need to focus on playing the ball rather than the man. It gets a bit tricky in this instance because a big part of this *is* about personal paradigms.

I don't want to stunt an open debate, but I don't want it to degenerate into a slanging match either. 

May I simply ask that we're careful about assuming too much of each other.

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## Muzi Oscar

"A typical blinkered view, introducing race superiority and supremacy into a debate that does not call for it, offering nothing to defend the policies besides revenge for the past, convinced that it includes all when it does not"

*Marq: But you are the one that posted a quote that undermine a certain race group from people who were in ANC and now that they broke away they are critisising policies they were part of using cheap racial remarks. I was not going to let you get away with that.*

And if my view is that EE is the correct policy, the members of this forum can not expect me to be on the other side - what will be the point for debate then? i expect anyone who does not agree with a current situation to suggest an alternative that we can all scrutinise.

And if you bring personal experiences in the debate, we will scrutinise them as well (with respect of course). If you don't want it to be challange, don't put it in a debate.

My view is that white women are WHITE so saying EE is a racial devide does not hold.

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