# Social Category > General Chat Forum >  South African parents stand accused of murdering their baby.

## Trickzta

This is a very tragic case, not only have these South African parents lost a child, they now stand accused of causing the death of their baby. I dont believe that they are guilty of killing their baby. 
To me these parents come across as decent human beings, people who have suffered a double blow and all for the sake of doing the right thing.
Listen to the interview on an Australian Radio broadcast and decide for yourself.

Vaccine Baby Dies - Parents Charged with Murder (Australian Radio)
http://fairdinkumradio.com/?q=node/280

Here are other links to this sad story that Ive found on the net;

Parents Charged in Babys Vaccine Death
http://philosophers-stone.co.uk/word...vaccine-death/

Parents Charged in Babys Vaccine Death
http://beforeitsnews.com/alternative...h-2740538.html

Parents charged with murder of baby that was actually killed by vaccines
http://beforeitsnews.com/economy/201...s-2549530.html

Baby Dies After 9 Vaccines in One Day
http://vactruth.com/2012/01/19/baby-...r-first-shots/

Five Month-Old Baby Dies Just Days After 8 Vaccinations  Parents Are Charged With Her Murder 
Amazingly, this was not the first time that Baby A had suffered from this side effect. Her mother told VacTruth that her legs had become swollen after vaccinations before, when they had remained swollen for several weeks
According to Reuters, in 2009 the Dutch authorities banned the vaccine Prevenar after three infants died within two weeks of receiving the vaccine. This was the same time frame that occurred between the administration of the vaccine and Baby As death. - See more at: http://vactruth.com/2013/08/17/baby-....49DrWj2h.dpuf

Vactruth has poor reputation rating! Theyve obviously hit a nerve!
But heres what they offer - Vaccine Ingredients
Get the free government documents that will radically change the way you look at vaccines forever!
Want to see the documents?
Vaccination Causes Autism  Heres What They Know
http://vactruth.com/2013/07/04/vacci...causes-autism/


More on the subject but not directly linked to this awful mistake;

Minnesota lawmakers ban formaldehyde in children's products but allow the neurotoxic chemical in vaccines and diet soda http://www.naturalnews.com/042029_fo...#ixzz2idURaID9
"Formaldehyde is used to inactivate bacterial products for toxoid vaccines," admits the CDC on its own website. "It is also used to kill unwanted viruses and bacteria that might contaminate the vaccine during production." (This is an open admission that vaccines are contaminated with viruses, by the way...)
Learn more: http://www.naturalnews.com/042029_fo...#ixzz2idb0uiMF

High level Merck scientist admits vaccines contain hidden cancer viruses. This video is included in the link above.

17 Examples of Admitted Vaccine Failure
http://vactruth.com/2013/02/23/17-ex...ccine-failure/

Vaccine Additives and Preservatives  one for the quacks
http://pediatrics.about.com/od/immun...vac_aditvs.htm

Ingredients of Vaccines - Fact Sheet - CDC
http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vac-gen/additives.htm

IPCS INTERNATIONAL PROGRAMME ON CHEMICAL SAFETY
    Health and Safety Guide No. 57

    FORMALDEHYDE
    HEALTH AND SAFETY GUIDE
http://www.inchem.org/documents/hsg/...tionNumber:2.1

A long article about autism.
http://pediatrics.aappublications.or...221.full#sec-2

Vaccination Causes Autism 
Vaccine Bombshell: Leaked Confidential

The current rate of autism (ASD) in the USA is one in 50, or 2 percent of children aged 6 to 17; whereas in the late 1970s it was one in 10,000.
http://www.activistpost.com/2013/10/...ge-payout.html

http://www.greenmedinfo.com/search/g...%20ingredients  For research on vaccine ingredients and the unintended, adverse health effects of subjecting oneself to them, visit the GreenMedInfo Vaccine Research page. ...

Vaccine Additives and Preservatives
http://pediatrics.about.com/od/immun...vac_aditvs.htm


I really hope that sanity prevails. My thoughts and prayers are with the parents.

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## adrianh

So what is the point that you are trying to make?

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Trickzta (06-Nov-13)

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## tec0

Consider how many people where saved with vaccination. Without it we would still be facing horrible illnesses and massive fatalities. I recommend researching a TV show called "Bull shit" and find the episode on vaccination. 

Their research pointed out that not all is what it seems to be.

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Dave A (06-Nov-13), Trickzta (06-Nov-13)

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## Trickzta

Main Points;
I really feel that these parents are unfairly charged with causing the death of their child. 
I personally seriously doubt the ‘science’ behind injecting our bodies with BS. I approached this with an open mind and was stunned by what I found. Deception, corruption and fudging of figures is the order of the day. I still keep my mind open and invite serious discussion on any aspects of this issue. 


Research; 

Watch this clip; at 2.45 Bill Gates explains that ‘new vaccinations’ will assist in lowering the world population.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WUJMR3BUm2s

Here is a site that disputes the distorted BullSh1t fed to us by crooked fraudsters posing as scientists. The FDA has been shown to be less than honest and has a horrible track record. Who to trust if the FDA is not trustworthy?  Need links to FDA corruption?

Let’s have a look at the history of polio.  
http://www.rense.com/general92/polio.htm 

Some of these sites have a bad WOT rating (I wonder why?) there are many such sites on the net, most have links to other sites. Below I’ve included links to such sites. These badly rated sites are a danger to children?  

From an original monograph by Dr Walter Hadwen, here is an account of how smallpox vaccine was first made:
1. A 3 month old calf was tied down on its side.
2. 30 – 50 one inch incisions were made in its stomach
3. Smallpox pus rubbed into each incision
4. Calf is returned to its pen, restrained so as to be unable to lick the sores
5. Wait one week.
6. Smallpox pustules form
7. Calf strapped down again
8. Encrusted pus is scraped off each sore and the remaining blood, lymph, and pus is then drained out.
9. It is placed in a crucible and heated, adding glycerine as a binder
10. Mixed and strained to remove hair and dead flesh.
11. Poured into tubes as sold as pure calf lymph – or smallpox vaccine.
- See more at: http://www.thedoctorwithin.com/small....S906A77t.dpuf



Extracts from an article;
Alton Ochsner was one of the most prominent doctors in New Orleans where the secret monkey virus lab exposed by this book was located.) To demonstrate his conviction that the vaccine was really ready, Dr. Ochsner inoculated his own grandchildren with it. 

  The mass inoculation proceeded on schedule. Within days, children fell sick from polio, some were crippled, some died. Estimates vary dramatically. (The truth will never be known--TV) Ochsner's grandson died. His granddaughter contracted polio but survived.
 - See more at: http://www.savethemales.ca/hidden_hi..._vaccines.html



http://www.whale.to/a/bruno.html 
Dr. Richard Bruno is Director of Fatigue Management Programs and The Post-Polio Institute at Englewood (NJ)
Hospital and Medical Center. His new book, THE POLIO PARADOX: UNCOVERING THE HIDDEN HISTORY OF POLIO TO UNDERSTAND TREAT "POST-POLIO SYNDROME" AND CHRONIC FATIGUE, is published by Warner Books. (AOL Keyword POLIO PARADOX.) E-mail questions to him at PolioParadox@aol.com 


The following text is taken from a report concerning children in Namibia;
-“The same situation of poliomyelitis occurring in fully vaccinated children, usually straight after mass vaccination drives, has occurred in many other countries, both developed and developing. The difference was in the truthfulness in reporting.”-

There’s that word again “truthfulness” http://www.whale.to/vaccine/scheibne...ak_in_Namibia_

There are more articles on this subject when opening the link above. There are over 20 reference works supplied, one dating back to 1933.

About the author;
Before emigrating to Australia in 1968, she progressed to Senior Associate Professor (Docent) - She retired as Principal Research Scientist in 1987,

The findings with Cotwatch sparked her interest in the link between sudden infant death syndrome (SIDS) and vaccination, and resulted in her intensive research of orthodox medical literature into the dangers and ineffectiveness of vaccines which continues to this day.
Since 1996, she has provided over 100 reports and appeared as an expert witness for numerous court cases involving vaccine injuries and deaths misdiagnosed as physical injuries by parents and other carers, called "shaken baby syndrome".

*Shaken Baby Syndrome – misdiagnosed vaccine injury! Get it?

Dr Scheibner can be contacted by email at viera.scheibner@gmail.com.
 Conclusions; (part of the conclusions in her article)
Not only has mass polio vaccination not eradicated paralytic poliomyelitis, it has caused a number of outbreaks of paralysis directly linked to the administered vaccines.
Bits and pieces from her report;
“These days, when a vaccinee develops poliomyelitis, it may not be called poliomyelitis; instead, it may be called viral or aseptic meningitis, ascending paralysis (Guillain-Barre syndrome), cerebral palsy (over 75 per cent of cases are not diagnosed at birth but after six months) or other such names. According to MMWR (1997; 32[29]:384-385), there are 30,000 to 50,000 cases of aseptic meningitis every year in the United States. Considering that the vast majority (99 per cent) of the reported cases in the pre-vaccine era were non-paralytic and would have corresponded to aseptic or aviral meningitis, then vaccination has actually increased the incidence of poliomyelitis. In the pre-vaccine era, such high numbers only occurred in some epidemics. Now, such numbers occur every year, year by year.” 

“Inherent problems with inactivation of viruses (including those contaminating polio vaccines) were already known as early as 1961 and 1962.”

“The incidence of both whooping cough and polio quite obviously went up threefold when vaccination became virtually mandatory. I see it as clear evidence that the vaccinations caused the recipients to contract the diseases which the vaccines were supposed to prevent.” – (she’s referring  to a graph she supplies, with which to show the link between vaccinations and vaccination caused disease)  My words in brackets.

“They totally overlook the vaccines' obvious and documented ineffectiveness in preventing any diseases, and the never-ending trail of disasters and very serious immune, autoimmune and degenerative diseases created in the process by modern medicine which earns billions of dollars from the vaccines.” 
(Billions of dollars? Could this be a clue?) My words in brackets.

More Research;
Vaccines Deadly During Pregnancy: Fetal Immune System Arises From Entirely Different Source
http://preventdisease.com/news/10/12...e_system.shtml
The H1N1 Vaccine Is A Much Greater Risk To Your Health Than The Flu Itself
Hogwash Alert: One Flu Shot To Protect All Humans From All Flu Strains For Ten Years?



Many articles here;
http://www.naturalnews.com/vaccines.html
Including these; 	
Internet monitoring system to stalk social media users who question safety of vaccines

Learn more: http://www.naturalnews.com/040571_Ga...#ixzz2jrOhQ0wZ
The vaccine cover-up: uncovered
http://www.naturalnews.com/040402_va...cal_myths.html

NaturalNews exposes secret vaccine industry ties and military involvement with Institute of Medicine, reveals fatal conflicts of interest at IoM


One of the leading medical journals in this country has forbidden us to quote directly in this factsheet from peer reviewed articles about vaccine safety, again apparently because of pressure from the Department of Health. This is so despite the fact that these articles are published scientific studies.
"A foolish faith in authority is the worst enemy of truth."
-- Albert Einstein, letter to a friend, 1901
"Who gets to decide what the greater good is and how many will be sacrificed to it?"
-- Sandy Gottstein
http://www.vaccinationnews.com/Daily...xFactSheet.htm


History shows polio caused by pesticide exposure, then was eradicated by decline in DDT use

Learn more: http://www.naturalnews.com/036290_po...#ixzz2jrWxxULJ

There are so many lies and smoke screens that have been around from the time that Farmer Jenner first concocted his cow-pox patties that persist until today. Governments and Medical Agencies including Federal Agencies consistently cover up the messy parts and demonise all who would dare to confound the issue with serious and well researched reports.
I personally am of the opinion that the money plays the major role in this business. Why else should a child need all of these vaccinations on the grounds of a danger to children who are vaccinated? The truth is likely just the opposite. Vaccinated children are a possible danger, as carriers, to those not vaccinated. Why would ‘new vaccinations’ contribute to de-populating the planet?

But at the core of this thread, is the injustice that the parents of ‘baby A’ face on a daily basis. What a nightmare to be held responsible for the death of your own child when all you did was blindly “follow the rules”. Think about it.

That’s all I ask, think about it. Think about those parents.

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## Trickzta

Oops. the live link to the titles were lost in posting. Here are active links.

The H1N1 Vaccine Is A Much Greater Risk To Your Health Than The Flu Itself
http://preventdisease.com/news/09/08...flu_hype.shtml


Hogwash Alert: One Flu Shot To Protect All Humans From All Flu Strains For Ten Years?
http://preventdisease.com/news/11/02..._flu_jab.shtml

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## Dave A

> If polio vaccine is the sole reason for ending the spread of polio in the first world, then why hasn't polio ended in India, the Congo and other countries? There have been countless polio vaccine campaigns year after year in Africa, India etc yet we keep hearing about outbreaks, currently, India and Africa have polio outbreaks. The answer is not vaccine but sanitation. In countries that have raw sewage entering the rivers, lakes etc where people use these same waterways for drinking and cooking the disease will never die away. *The money spent on vaccine is only a fraction of what it would cost to put in decent sanitation which would include sewers and sewage treatment along with providing potable safe drinking water in the third world*, so, consequently, the pharma industry with a lot to lose talks about the reduction of polio via vaccine.


Seriously? Are you really buying that?

Let's break that down a bit to make this easier to grasp the absurdness of the point -




> There have been countless polio vaccine campaigns year after year in Africa, India etc yet we keep hearing about outbreaks, currently, India and Africa have polio outbreaks.


Had the victims been vaccinated against polio?
Pretty safely assuming not, if you couldn't get to them with a needle and syringe to give a vaccination shot despite repeated efforts, what are your chances of getting them onto a sewerage system?

Probably more remote than getting them onto a fixed line telephone (which admittedly is an abstract thought to file away for now).




> The money spent on vaccine is only a fraction of what it would cost to put in decent sanitation which would include sewers and sewage treatment along with providing potable safe drinking water in the third world


How much does it cost to put a household on waterborne sewage?
And provide potable safe drinking water (something that parts of Europe haven't even managed to achieve yet BTW)?
In places with virtually zero infrastructure?
How many people in that household?

Not sure what that might cost?
How about a fixed line telephone? That just has to be one heck of a lot easier and cheaper, surely.
And telephone comms have always been in pretty popular demand if the explosion of wireless telephony through Africa is anything to go by, now that it's commercially viable. What was the problem holding back a full blown roll-out of fixed line telecoms?

How many vaccinations against polio could you get for similar money?
There's a reason why this "result of serious research" doesn't give any numbers - it's because the numbers will show how ludicrous the point is!

Actually, forget trying to wrap your head around numbers. Here's a question that should be easy to answer without any maths -

Why are these anti-vaccination stories on obscure websites more credible in your eyes than mainstream thinking on the subject?

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tec0 (06-Nov-13), Trickzta (07-Nov-13)

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## tec0

Lets be clear about something. I am not qualified to speak against or on behalf of vaccinations. But I have been vaccinated a few times and will do so in the future. Imagine the cost in lives if you take away vaccinations? How many people will be dead today? How many families will be dead today?

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Trickzta (07-Nov-13)

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## Blurock

> If polio vaccine is the sole reason for ending the spread of polio in the first world, then why hasn't polio ended in India, the Congo and other countries?


Outbreaks of polio appears to be related to poor higiene. Polio is endemic only in Pakistan, Nigeria and Afganistan. It has now also surfaced in Syria during the civil war and experts are concerned that it may spread rapidly. 

In Pakistan, aid can not get to certain areas because the local Taliban has been targeting anti-polio workers ever since the US tried using an immunization team to track Osama Bin Laden.

Islamist extremists in Nigeria have warned locals that "white medicine" is a CIA plot to sterilize girls and wipe out the country's muslim poulation.

In Afghanistan, the Taliban has stymied inoculation efforts over the years. It backed off in May, citing research that showed vaccinations like oral anti-polio drops were the best way to protect children. A 2nd round of their government's vaccination campaign was launched and trained volunteers vaccinated 8.2 million children under the age of 5.

Source: Time magazine 4/11/2013

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Trickzta (07-Nov-13)

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## Trickzta

Thank you for expressing your opinion Dave. I too am not qualified to debate this issue as an expert or professional. That said I really feel that this couple is being victimized. This I say with some conviction as my family suffered a similar experience. Luckily our 18 month old child came out of the coma and slowly recovered over a few years. Happily the child is now a healthy young adult.

Now I’m not sure what would have happened had the unthinkable happened. Would I also have ended up charged with shaking my baby? 

After that experience, an eye-opener in hindsight to say the least, my last child was not subjected to the routine 4 in 1 and other various inoculations. This child is now almost an adult and is the healthiest of all my children. Coincidence? Maybe. Normal and/or natural immune system? More likely in my unqualified opinion. 

I had no idea at the time we rushed our child to hospital. A pediatrician who was on his way out as we were on our way in took one look at our child and immediately took charge. The diagnosis he made and the treatment he started were both correct. This was confirmed by the results of the culture test a few days later. 

Looking back I often wonder if it was fortune shining down on us or was it that this Doctor had seen this illness in babies many times before. The kindly old Doctor, for whatever reason, had saved my child’s life and due to the urgency in starting treatment before the lab results came back. 

The results could have shown the disease/illness to be bacterial or viral, with several strains of each type being a possibility. The experienced pediatrician was spot on in his ‘at a glance’ diagnosis. Now I’m not complaining about the ‘drop of a hat’ diagnosis in the doorway of the entrance to the hospital, but I sometimes wonder if this condition isn’t a lot more prevalent than we’re led to believe.

We were informed that our child had a 30% chance of surviving this illness and a 70% chance of brain damage if he did survive. Personally I believe that Doctors fudge these % predictions in order to best prepare the parents for the worst. I have no problem with this method as the motive is an honorable one. 50/50 was the most likely outcome of the first prediction. As to the second prediction I have no idea.

Now earlier you asked about knowing anyone suffering from polio. My maternal Grandfather had polio as a child and had a gammy leg as a result of this. A youngster that lived up the road from me had a form of polio. This also targeted the legs. I appreciate that this does not equate having a close family member with a more serious form of this infliction.

For thirty years of my life I used to visit Children’s Homes and other Mental and Medical Institutions around the country. As a technician I called on many places covering a very broad spectrum of Factories, Hospitals, Nuclear Installations (Velindaba-Pelindaba), Hotels, Clinics, Government Departments, Universities, Abattoirs, Mental Institutions, Prisons, Diamond Cutters, FMCG Producers, various Mines and Refineries, Mine Worker Hostels and the Mint. I’ve skipped a few but you get the idea. I’ve a general view of the big picture as opposed to an in-depth view of a specific part of the picture.  

While I’m not saying that this makes me ‘superior’ in any way (the opposite is more likely) I am saying that I tend to see life in much the same manner, which has its limitations when trying to make decisions in specific cases. I hope I’m getting my point across here. I don’t look at issues from a certain viewpoint, I tend to look from different angles.

Anyway, after looking from different angles or seeing both (or more) sides of the story a different conclusion (from a one sided view conclusion) is often if not always reached. After some time of looking at issues from the different view/stand points a few trends become apparent.

All through the ages the Mainstream scorned and ridiculed those who would dare challenge the ‘status quo’. These ‘insane’ people would often be imprisoned, tortured, threatened, exiled or even killed. Jesus was one such person.

The truth had nothing to do with the treatment or punishment of such ‘heretics’. To publicly state that the earth was round when Mainstream thinking stated that the earth was flat could easily end with a Public beheading or other unjust punishment. Even with ‘scientific’ data to prove your statement you were subjected to this punishment and your data was suppressed.

Today we all know that the earth orbits the sun, but how many died for saying this at a time when the Authorities taught the opposite, based on the Book of Genesis? (God created the earth before He created light - therefore the earth was the primary celestial body orbited by the sun, being the secondary) 

Today the same trend is applicable to anyone questioning the ‘wisdom’ of the Mainstream Medical practices and beliefs. Granted beheading has died down but the punishment of ‘heretics’ persists.
For example, we find in the book “Vaccination; the Silent Killer” by Ida Honoroff and Eleanor McBean, the following:
“In 1796 Edward Jenner started his cowpox vaccination craze, which increased the smallpox epidemics to such an extent that the disease became endemic, and in 1837 to 1839 there was the sweeping epidemic which killed 22,081 people. In spite of this absolute proof of the deadly effects of vaccination, the vaccine promoters managed to get a compulsory vaccination law passed in England in 1853. The epidemics then increased to such an extent that by 1870 to 1872 there was the worst smallpox epidemic of all time, which killed 44,480 people. The English people fought the vaccination promoters until they were able to abolish compulsory vaccination in England in 1948. They have had no epidemics since then.”
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2011/06...is-not-pretty/

This part concerns Mainstream Medical Fraud and cover-up. 
We were falsely reassured. We were told by authoritative sources…that an investigation had been done and cleared Wakefield of most charges. But as shown by documents obtained under the Freedom of Information Act, there was no proper investigation, merely a 48-hour ‘scramble’ to protect reputations and discredit the story.
According to the BMJ article, within 48 hours of this meeting, an editor from The Lancet met with the study’s 3 senior authors and the journal published “a 5000-word avalanche of denials in statements unretracted to this day.”
Further statements reported that an investigation was undertaken by the Royal Free Hospital that “cleared Wakefield of wrongdoing.”
However, according to documents obtained under the Freedom of Information Act, the investigation was actually conducted internally by the coauthors themselves. Both the Royal Free Hospital and Medical School have now confirmed that no formal investigation was performed, no physicians were ever interviewed, and no documents generated.
http://www.veteranstoday.com/2011/01...n-total-fraud/

I’ll need some time to reply about the polio or whatever they’re allowed to call it in Africa and India. You make a valid point and I’d like to follow up on it. Land lines or land mines?

In reply to your question about ‘obscure websites’ a quick search revealed that the site had 8,500,000 visitors last month.
http://www.viunk.com/domain/naturalnews.com

I’ll check out more site details when I have the time. I’m sure that some of the sites would qualify as obscure. I’ll also supply links that expose the lies and fraudulent activities of the FDA and other ‘reputable’ agencies and sites.

This site has many Doctors that are not afraid of telling it like it is. They are also targeted by people that visit such sites with the sole intention of giving them a poor WOT rating. Some sites go from green to red in all departments overnight. 
http://www.vaccinationcouncil.org/tag/h1n1/

Thanks again for giving me food for thought. I appreciate your input in this matter.

I’ll reply to other questions as soon as possible. Take care.

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## Dave A

> I had no idea at the time we rushed our child to hospital. A pediatrician who was on his way out as we were on our way in took one look at our child and immediately took charge. The diagnosis he made and the treatment he started were both correct. This was confirmed by the results of the culture test a few days later. 
> 
>  Looking back I often wonder if it was fortune shining down on us or was it that this Doctor had seen this illness in babies many times before. The kindly old Doctor, for whatever reason, had saved my child’s life and due to the urgency in starting treatment before the lab results came back. 
> 
>  The results could have shown the disease/illness to be bacterial or viral, with several strains of each type being a possibility. The experienced pediatrician was spot on in his ‘at a glance’ diagnosis. Now I’m not complaining about the ‘drop of a hat’ diagnosis in the doorway of the entrance to the hospital, but I sometimes wonder if this condition isn’t a lot more prevalent than we’re led to believe.


This is truly disturbing. But if I may ask, what exactly was the final diagnosis?
And how long ago was this?

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Trickzta (08-Nov-13)

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## Peter Johns781

The thing about life is it is not fair. I have not read the links but i am imagining what those parents are going through. However, it has be proved beyond doubt that they were not negligent enough to cause the death of their child.

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Trickzta (08-Nov-13)

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## Trickzta

As promised a expose of Mainstream Medical fraud and corruption. Ive limited the number of pages Im posting, personally Im of the opinion that this post is way too long, yet Ive only scratched the surface. 
 Ive used Mainstream Media reports as well as the more obscure sources when Mainstream Media (MM) requested payment for access and/or when MM ignored the story. My own comments are *preceded by and end with* an asterisk. Some Headlines say it all, no comment needed. 
Remember that all my posts are opinion, I am not qualified to comment on Medical matters, I am however able to question and hopefully resolve some nagging doubts about the integrity of some scientists, scientific report fraud allegations, Governmental Agencies, Pharmaceutical Manufacturers etc.

First off a clip where (in my opinion) shocking details are revealed.
*40 different viruses in these vaccines anyway..just after 6 minutes.*
*Dr Albert Sabin speaks near the end of this 10 minute clip*
Merck vaccine scientist admits presence of SV40 and AIDS in vaccines - Dr. Maurice Hilleman
http://tv.naturalnews.com/v.asp?v=13...2F94D2CD90EF7B
*Monkey Business Exposed!*
*Related article;* HIV vaccines cause 50 percent false positive rate in HIV tests
*If hot link doesnt re-post this link can be found on the page that first link opens.*

*Another reason why obscure websites are prominent in my posts might be that the Mainstream Media in the USA is owned/controlled by a few wealthy individuals. (Need links?)*

It is sad that only the alternative media (which is quickly becoming the dominant media now) dares cover the truth about this story, but that's exactly why we need your help in getting this story more widely read by others.

This story can't be completely told, by the way, without mentioning the National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program, an elaborate scheme set up by the U.S. government to insulate pharmaceutical companies from lawsuits that should have been filed by all the parents of children damaged by vaccines. Think about this: Vaccines are so dangerous that the U.S. government had to set up an extra-constitutional court system just to make sure the American people can't seek justice against Big Pharma!

The vaccine industry is run by such a powerful cabal of medical criminals that even the U.S. Supreme Court says it has no jurisdiction whatsoever when it comes to the Vaccine Injury Compensation Program. In other words, this kangaroo court is more powerful than the U.S. Supreme Court! And its sole purpose, of course, is to make sure vaccine companies can never be sued, even as their products cause widespread fatalities and neurological harm in children, including autism. (http://www.naturalnews.com/031484_Supreme_Co...)


*Many millions were paid out to victims  mostly settled out of court.. No links but they are available.*

Wall Street Journal report.
Top Pain Scientist Fabricated Data in Studies, Hospital Says;

Dr. Reuben had been a paid speaker on behalf of Pfizer's medicines, and it paid for some of his research.
http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/...72510903888207


Using the guise of established medical science, these widely accepted studies are disseminated through medical journals and accepted as the ultimate authority by many. In the case of professor Sheng Wang of Boston University School of Medicine Cancer Research Center, his cancer research was found to be misconducted, fraudulent, and contain altered results. What is unsettling is the fact that his research had been previously accepted and used as a cornerstone from which to base all subsequent cancer research.

Read more: http://naturalsociety.com/cancer-res...#ixzz2k2FIjjTd 
*Scary  cornerstone .. ALL subsequent cancer research*

One such example involves Dr. Scott Reuben, a well-respected anesthesiologist who was the former chief of acute pain of the Baystate Medical Center in Springfield Massachusetts. It later came out that Dr. Reuben fabricated the data for 21 studies, all of which were doctored to deceive consumers into thinking drugs like Vioxx and Celebrex were safe.

Read more: http://naturalsociety.com/cancer-res...#ixzz2k2G90Gdu 
*What can I say? Doctor doctors and fabricates data for 21 studies*


Mistakes in Scientific Studies Surge
Wall Street Journal report.
http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/...11850666582080

*At this point the WSJ requested that I subscribe to their journal for a dollar a week or something like that. I was unable to read the article but the Headline says it all. Mistake is the PC (politically correct) word in my opinion.*


USATODAY Report.
Psychiatrist: Company hid Prozac, suicide link
Eli Lilly & Co. officials lied 15 years ago in denying there was any evidence the anti-depressant Prozac could cause suicidal behavior, a Harvard psychiatrist has charged.

"'Oh no, no, we never heard of such a thing,' they told me," Teicher said. But studies from the 1980s showed such dangers, he said, and German drug regulators wouldn't license the drug when Lilly first applied in 1985, citing "suicidal risk." The Food and Drug Administration (FDA) approved Prozac in 1987. But when problems started surfacing, the agency held a scientific advisory panel hearing in 1991 and found no evidence of a link to suicide.
Before that hearing, Lilly published studies showing Prozac was safe, Teicher said. "They culled patients from their worldwide trials, they cherry-picked the studies, leaving out the trials showing problems."
http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/...zac-usat_x.htm

*Pay for Medical Reports or subscribe to this Elite Site that is often the source of Alternative Website articles.*
http://www.elsevierbi.com/reports
Elsevier and Medtech Insight proudly serve the Top 40 medical device companies within the Fortune 100 community, and is globally recognized as "The Most Influential Publisher of the Last 100 Years" by the Special Libraries Association. In addition, we are consistently ranked #1 among the Top 10 Scientific, Technical, and Medical companies, as reported by Outsell.
Adverse Drug Reactions Cover-Up? 80,000 Drug Files Go Unreported by Big Pharma
Its not news to say that the medical industry isnt much interested in our health. Now, wealth - thats something different, as weve seen in the ties between the DSM-5 panel members and pharmaceutical companies and the disease machine that is the cancer research industry. Roche and Genentech, a Swiss-based pharmaceutical hotshot and its US affiliate, respectively, were just caught with their pants down and 80,000 unreported drug files during an inspection is, therefore, not outlandish. Could these 80,000 files be adverse drug reactions?
Read more: http://naturalsociety.com/adverse-dr...#ixzz2k2ZMpR3z 
*Speculation? Yes, but is 80,000 missing files ummm..a mistake?*
The Great Myth of the FDA as Protector of our Health
http://naturalsociety.com/great-myth...#ixzz2k2oNp85b


Global Big Pharma has been fined more than $11 billion in the last three years for nothing less than criminal wrongdoing, but this doesnt stop them.
http://naturalsociety.com/great-myth...#ixzz2k2nkOm34 



*These statements are verifiable*  *tip of the iceberg when considering out of court settlements.*
Drugs pushed by Big Pharma hardly need more marketing. (GlaxoSmithKline settled with the government for $3 billion in July over off-label claims, and Pfizer settled for $2.3 billion in 2009.) That a federal court made it easier for Big Pharma to make more money with science that goes against nature has numerous and far-reaching implications.

Meanwhile, raw milk provider James Stewart cant cut a break. His bail was set at $1 millionafter the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention was finally forced to admit using misrepresenting statistics to link raw milk to death. (As we all know, however, stigmas die hard.)
Read more: http://naturalsociety.com/us-court-l...#ixzz2k2qquGN6 
*One million dollars bail for selling raw milk to willing buyers? CDC finally forced to admit using misrepresenting statistics (fraud in common terms)*

There's much more much worse still to come. Sorry!

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## Trickzta

Dave it was about 18 years ago that my child was ill. I cannot with any certainty say that this illness was or was not vaccine related. I said previously that my child was 18 months old at the time, I was out a little, my child was closer to 2 years old. (please excuse this honest mistake). I had no intention of disclosing this information when I first posted on this topic.

Our minds were not thinking clearly when our child was so close to death, many diseases were mentioned as possibilities. After the lab test results were returned we were told that it was a type of bacterial meningitis and if memory serves me - memory fails me right now but I'll be back with the precise name we were told by the Doctors.

When I read about the couple that stand accused of murder, the story conjured the dark days that my family endured when my child was ill. I am trying to raise awareness about the link of this illness to vaccines. A course that sets me in a position that I'd rather not be in, truth be told.

I'll be back on Monday. Have a great weekend.

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## Trickzta

Thanks Peter, it's an awful situation for them. Just listening to them talking on a Fairdinkum Radio broadcast was all it took to convince me that they are not killers. The link is in a previous post if you have the time to listen. It is not too long and I think just hearing a portion of the broadcast will be all you need to draw a conclusion. 

Protocol was not followed by the Hospital Authorities (in my opinion) and you raise a fair point about proving they were not negligent. However the child did not present the trauma normally associated with Shaken Baby Syndrome, and shaking your baby violently enough to cause death goes beyond negligence. 

Thanks again for thinking of those parents.

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## mvubu

If you need your tree shaken - do a google image search for:
Diphtheria
Hib
Hepatitis B
Measles
Meningitis
Mumps
Neonatal Tetanus
Pertussis
Poliomyelitis
Rotavirus
Rubella and CRS
Tetanus
Tuberculosis
Yellow Fever


Some of these were considered eradicated until the nutters started this nonsense. I fully support the neglect charge of the parents in the original post. 
Vaccines, like evolution, is only in a controversy in the heads of those who will not examine the science, have a predetermined position and refuse to listen to reason. 
This is a massive public health issue and entertaining quacks is a REALLY bad idea.

Anyone googled those images yet?

If anyone wants to know how the US Federal Courts ACTUALLY said here is the place to look: http://www.uscfc.uscourts.gov/omnibus-autism-proceeding
Three special masters were appointed to evaluate three test cases from this group. The court ultimately denied compensation for these cases and then denied compensation for a further three cases, and the court was not impressed with the science or expert witnesses marshalled for the plaintiffs

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Trickzta (13-Nov-13)

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## pmbguy

Hi Trickzta

Vaccines are safe, study after study has proved this. Millions of people have been saved from terrible diseases like small pox. Remember that the internet is full of bullshit, you can find “evidence” to back any crazy theory. Big pharma is guilty of many wrong doings, producing drugs that harm people etc etc. But somehow you got fixated on vaccines, which is one aspect of medicine that can’t really be faulted, despite what you read on the internet. You may say “but why is so much negative things written about vaccines” well any story that is sensational and against mainstream practice/belief will get picked up by journalists, quacks and weirdoes. 
I think you using this quest against vaccines as a way to deal with your own feelings about what happened to your child. This is not healthy. You need to resolve these issues within yourself and forget about finding resolution through seeking the “truth” about vaccines. 

Let the big facts inform your mind and forget the big conspiracies.

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Trickzta (13-Nov-13)

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## Dave A

A heck of a lot of this posting is throwing mud against the wall. Case in point -



> USATODAY Report.
> Psychiatrist: Company hid Prozac, suicide link
> Eli Lilly & Co. officials lied 15 years ago in denying there was any evidence the anti-depressant Prozac could cause suicidal behavior, a Harvard psychiatrist has charged.
> 
> "'Oh no, no, we never heard of such a thing,' they told me," Teicher said. But studies from the 1980s showed such dangers, he said, and German drug regulators wouldn't license the drug when Lilly first applied in 1985, citing "suicidal risk." The Food and Drug Administration (FDA) approved Prozac in 1987. But when problems started surfacing, the agency held a scientific advisory panel hearing in 1991 and found no evidence of a link to suicide.
> Before that hearing, Lilly published studies showing Prozac was safe, Teicher said. "They culled patients from their worldwide trials, they cherry-picked the studies, leaving out the trials showing problems."
> http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/...zac-usat_x.htm


What does that have to do with the broad and total condemnation of vaccination programs?

I think we've all conceded that there are problem cases in the pharmaceutical industry. And given the size and scope of the industry, there's sure to be no shortage of volume to point to, even if that volume actually represents a spectacularly small minority of the total industry.

However, as Mvubu points out -




> This is a massive public health issue and entertaining quacks is a REALLY bad idea.


In fact, taken too far it's arguably criminal.

 :Hmmm: 

Actually, now that I think about it - I've always wondered what motivates people to push these messages that could so easily persuade people to refuse taking help that they might desperately need, and even have massive, fatal consequences. Maybe this is part of the diabolical plot by The Illuminati / Freemasons / (add your own conspiracy theory organisation here) to subjugate the world  :Stick Out Tongue: 

Ultimately, yes we need watchdogs. Yes the industry needs close monitoring. Yes, specific products may deserve criticism.
But no, my goodness no, do we need hysterical responses that stops the good pharma getting through.

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Trickzta (13-Nov-13)

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## pmbguy

:Stick Out Tongue: Perhaps it is the work of the Illuminate. They are pushing these false messages to weed out the gene pool. Let me explain, you see only stupid people would believe such nonsense and intelligent people will not. So the stupid people die from not vaccinating and the smart ones survive because they will vaccinate. Go Go Illuminate :Stick Out Tongue:

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Trickzta (13-Nov-13)

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## adrianh

The problem lies in the misuse of statistics. People need to quote bad reaction counts in relation to no reaction counts. If Prozac, which is just another SSRI, was so bad then how come there aren't millions of reported suicides liked directly to the use of SSRI's. The point that people also miss about deaths during the use of SSRI's is that those patients were depressed to start with. Although anti-depressants are able to damp out the physical effects of depression they sure are not able to stop thinking processes which might cause people to harm themselves. What I mean is for example: if a person is depressed because they were responsible for the death of a child then an anti-depressant may dump the physical side of the depression but it will not stop that person from blaming themselves.  How can one then say that the anti-depressant causes that person to commit suicide if they were prone to doing so in the first place.

By the looks of it more young people commit suicide due to the side effects of the misuse of social media than anything else today.

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Trickzta (13-Nov-13)

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## pmbguy

Technically we can point out to a few fallacies that are contributing to this folly 

	Fallacy of composition - assuming that something true of part of a whole must also be true of the whole (Some Pharma is bad so its all bad)

	Shotgun argumentation  the arguer offers such a large number of arguments for their position that the opponent can't possibly respond to all of them (So many links and so much evidence) 

	Cherry picking (suppressed evidence, incomplete evidence)  act of pointing at individual cases or data that seem to confirm a particular position, while ignoring a significant portion of related cases or data that may contradict that position(Choosing to focus on the little bit of evidence against vaccines, whilst ignoring the huge amount of evidence that supports vaccines)

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Dave A (09-Nov-13), Mark Atkinson (18-Nov-13), Trickzta (13-Nov-13)

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## Dave A

And sometimes all three!

A particularly insightful post, pmbguy  :Thumbup:

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Trickzta (13-Nov-13)

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## pmbguy

Dave - sometimes a bit of reason is called for. Human stupidity is eternal. Thank the Greeks otherwise we would all be stuck in the cave. (Excuse the allegory)

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Trickzta (13-Nov-13)

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## Trickzta

Thanks for the reply Mvubu, 

Some very valid points made in your posts here, and a few things that I need to clear up. Mvubu, thanks for the links, I invite more of the same from any source. 

Everyone is entitled to their opinions so I fully support your full support for the charges 
As mentioned. My opinion is not in line with yours, but is my own.

In the link you posted concerning the special court setup by the Federal Government to restore the status quo that was being threatened by the Pharmaceutical companies preparing to withdraw from the vaccine arena, in the wake of multiple claims. Another task of the VICP (Vaccination Injury Compensation Program with its Cherry picked Masters was to prevent these Big Pharma Companies from being sued. 

A short version of the trial and verdict of the US Court of Federal Claims, not strictly speaking a Federal Court as the title reveals is available here. (for those that have an interest in such matters)
National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program (VICP) web site.

A look at the legal implications is found in the next link. 
Sole jurisdiction for adjudicating claims is vested in the US Court of Federal Claims, a court which sits only in Washington, DC. Even finding an attorney to handle a claim can be difficult, as an attorney must be specially admitted to practice before the Court of Claims, and the Program is virtually unknown to most attorneys. The salient fact is that federal law prohibits filing a civil suit until this claims process is completed, and such a suit is necessary if you elect not to accept the award.
http://www.gval.com/legal.htm

I found some interesting info here: I found that regression is not a condition that either exists or does not exist in a particular child and in most cases is simply one variable in the early development of those with autism and beside the fact of regression itself, children with regression do not form a distinct group. (a cherry picked summary of the play on words that was presented as expert witness in lieu of scientific evidence) A short but informative post and an anti forced vaccination site.

This site has a poor rating but looking at the WOT report it is the work of idiots that falsely rate it harmful and dishonest. Monsantos website was also poorly rated by silly idiots for no genuine reason. This is my unbiased opinion that applies to any site that is falsely labeled as untrustworthy by spiteful idiots with nothing better to do. (opinion)
http://www.ageofautism.com/2010/03/o...ngers-cat.html

*A quick look at the figures concerning payouts made by the Masters of the Special Court reveals more than the Canned Media Reports that Mainstream Media dishes up as news.Payments as of February of 2003,*
 As of February of 2003, 3,482 vaccine victims have received compensation totaling over $1.4 billion. For details call (800) 338-2382 or visit the
National Vaccine Injury Compensation Program (VICP) web site.
Info supplied by this badly rated site.
http://www.vaccineinfo.net/yourright...ycomplaw.shtml (deadly dangerous 
site)

*Another source of this info;*
Vaccine manufacturers have paid out nearly $2B in damages to parents in America whose children were harmed by one of the childhood jabs such as the MMR (measles-mumps-rubella) or DPT (diphtheria-pertussis-tetanus). In all, around 2,000 families have received compensation payments that have averaged $850,000 each. There are a further 700 claims that are going through the pipeline. None of the claims is for autism as medical researchers say they have failed to find a link between the disease and the MMR vaccine, despite the initial findings made by Dr Andrew Wakefield. Instead they are for a wide spectrum of physical and mental conditions that are likely to have been caused by one of the vaccinations. Around 7,000 parents have filed a claim of an adverse reaction with America's Vaccine Injury Compensation Program (VICP). To win an award, the claimant must prove a causal link to a vaccine. As the medical establishment has refused to recognise any link to autism, the VICP has so far rejected 300 claims for this outright. (Source: New England Journal of Medicine)
Medicine, 2007; 357: 1275-9).  
: http://www.shirleys-wellness-cafe.co....Lrg3FDNF.dpuf

Those are terrible diseases in your link, theres no denying that fact. Where is the Scientific Data concerning vaccinations and the efficacy of the drugs that I hear people refer to? How do I come to accept the vaccination Program as scientifically sound if the data is not available? 

Mvubu, on what scientific research do you base your statement shown below?
Vaccines, like evolution, is only in a controversy in the heads of those who will not examine the science, have a predetermined position and refuse to listen to reason. 

Please let me know where I can find this science to examine. Not a self-praising press release with figures that proves the rate of infections is falling, but real, solid science explaining the way in which vaccines work. Not the herd immunity mumbo jumbo but real science.

Thanks again for your reply, I look forward to your or anyone elses' link to the science that is (in my opinion) lacking in real life as well as in this thread.

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## Trickzta

Hi PMGuy,

Thanks for the reply. Dig deep enough and youll find some astonishing facts about many weird and wonderful things, some true, some false even some with some truth and some lies, or mistakes in a small % of cases. The CIA and others have the financial means and the ability to have agents in the Alternate Media. These agents are often high profile conspiracy and corruption exposing reporters, being fed secret info by the Feds, MOSSAD or their Masters. We would be short sighted not to believe this.

Agents spend years building a cover and recruiting armchair activists and truthers as some like to be called. Mossad and other Masters supply their agents with highly classified info to keep them in the forefront of breaking news and to disguise the real reason for infiltrating the Alternate Media and every other organization and Elite Club of consequence. That way we are fed a lot of baloney dressed with a few nuggets that were deemed expendable by TPTB. (The Powers That Be)

To supply links to these opinions would clutter this post, something Im guilty of and for which I apologize. However links will be supplied on request. Many gems Ive cherry picked from old books published before ISBN numbers were introduced. In these cases I name the book, author, publisher, date of printing and country of origin. (Sometimes only supplied on request) Mainstream and (in my opinion) reputable reference books are my sources wherever possible. No use is made on my part, to find obscure books to make my point, unless our definition of obscure differs vastly.

Time and Life (TIME-LIFE Books) are frequently used by myself as a source of information. World War ll; The Home Front: U.S.A. by Ronald H. Bailey and the Editors of Time-Life Books is one such book. Copyright registered in 1973. Although there is no ISBN number there is a Library of Congress catalogue card number 77-87556.

These books along with the vast array of Readers Digest publications were instrumental in the Medias role of presenting reality to the masses. This is not a theory to me at all, it is documented in these propaganda promoting books. Propaganda is a two edged sword.

A careful and methodical reading regime will usually reveal the truth or perceived truth cleverly hidden in carefully chosen terms. Bear in mind that Government Agencies often had to be comfortable with the contents of the book, un-patriotic or anti-USA/USA policy stories were considered taboo. This is especially true during times of war when censorship, although often abused, is critical to national security.  

The authors could however sneak a cleverly worded sentence in here and there, usually not in the relevant chapter and didnt need to resort to the tactics used by Nostradamus to escape the censors and/or the death penalty.

People are still being persecuted to varying degrees for publishing articles or leaking secret info that drives regime or religious zealots to distraction. A modern example is Bradley Manning.

A mention in The  Home Front; USA, about Winston Churchill during his 3 week stay at the Whitehouse after Pearl Harbour states that the chubby Statesman, when awakened was served Scotch by the butler. The rest of the day he drank Brandy. Drinking from morning till night can be deduced from this statement which could mean that some decisions by this Famous man may well have been influenced by Dutch Courage or other effect, especially if the alcohol was mixed with other medication/s such as painkillers and the like. I have no reference to other medications being used simultaneously, but the chances of this having occurred are real.

The previous deduction is a theory. That segregation in the armed forces in the USA at the beginning of WW2, segregation of the magnitude of our own Apartheid Regime was rife, is not theory but bare factual truth. 

A few snippets, to re-enforce my point, appear below and the bulk of the source material is being held in reserve, available on request or as and if it becomes relevant. The racial issue is central to this (opinion) presentation of the bigger picture necessary for me to get my opinion at the very least, better understood. I admit defeat (in hindsight on my part, immediate recognition on the part of others) in my feeble attempt to convey any coherent points and my inability to solicit an intelligent exchange of ideas so far.  

Intermingling of the races, said the official government policy  approved by President Roosevelt in 1940  would produce situations destructive to morale and detrimental to the preparation for national defense.

A black officer could not outrank a white officer. The old SAP worked on similar lines  a white officer without rank was actually ranked higher than a black sergeant. (Opinion -formed by experiencing this ludicrous system at work in SA, first hand)

Furthermore, the Army, with the support of the American Red Cross, went so far as to segregate the blood plasma donated by blacks and whites, even though the man who had perfected the method for preserving plasma, Dr Charles R. Drew, was himself black.

Although there is no direct link to my suspicions concerning vaccines and these random stories and factual occurrences from Yesteryears, they will play a role as the story unfolds, whereas if these stories were collected until the point of the story calls for proof of examples or suchlike, then there is no need to flood the post with links and other distractions by postingcorrection over-posting. (Im using the past to demonstrate the present, or at least to demonstrate the feasibility of the present being a product of circumstance and deliberate conditioning. Opinion only.) 

Ive gotten myself into this corner and judging from the replies, have diverse topics to cover before Im out of the woods, so to speak. Ive no hidden agenda (usually unsolicited comments like this, are indicative of hidden agendas, the very thing they deny) but time will show that Im not being untruthful, vindictive or malicious and there is really not a hidden agenda behind this post. 

And no, I do not harbor any grudge or ill-feeling towards anyone or any industry in regards to my child. At the time I was not aware of vaccine related harm, Id only read of the wonderful benefits of a class of wonder drugs that was saving the world. There was a lot of PR and fanfare that ushered this billion dollar business into our daily lives.

Had I been planning a vendetta Id like to think Id have been able to present a more coherent, less bulky post than some of the hastily made copy and paste jumbled posts I threw together. In other words Id have had my ducks in a row instead of those ducks flying off at different tangents and flinging mud at the wall. Please accept my apologies for this and any other transgression of protocol.

Ill change tact to limit my scatter brained ranting about diverse topics. I did say in a previous post that Id be posting about the corruption in the FDA, but Im not using that as an excuse for the sloppiness of my posts, I take the full blame for that.

As to your statement concerning the Science or Research of the efficacy of vaccines, the scientific reports that prove the vaccine is . fill in your dream word or wish in this space, Im still waiting (at last glance) for a link to this research. Where is this scientific evidence?

In the meantime read about the (at last glance) still uncollected reward offered to the first person read it if you have the time, it gives the reason Mainstream Medicine uses to assert that double-blind, etc., tests are not needed in the case of vaccine science

Mike Adams from NaturalNews.com;
A year ago, I offered a $10,000 reward to any person who could find scientific proof that H1N1 vaccines were safe and effective .No one even made a claim to collect that reward because no such evidence exists.
http://www.naturalnews.com/029641_va...#ixzz2kT7yqlFS 

This post of mine is, in my opinion (and everyone elses Im sure) far too long. Shorter, clearer and more user friendly posting is the next goal Ive set myself.

Thanks all.
I promise not to post such tediously long speeches, to the best of my ability, again. At least Ive slowed down to a run when it comes to mud fights and active links. Take care.

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## Trickzta

Will post more replies as soon as possible. Thanks & take care.

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## Marq

An interesting discussion is coming out of this long winded dissertation. It should probably have its own thread.

The bottom line is that for a decent debate to take place there must be two opposing sides. Either one of which could be correct.........its an old argument - do vaccines work or not?

I can see the argument being lost here, by the first one to pull out the ridicule scenario. State an obvious fact that has nothing really to do with the debate and then close it all on a statement that reasoning of the clever ones has prevailed. 

The three fallacies used as a examples can be applied equally to both sides - that is another folly in the fallacy. 

Let me add some more - how about the 'backfire effect  when you show people facts that contradict their opinions they close down. Probably as a result of the ego being directly attacked and that agreement with fact would be admitting defeat. Also known as denialism.
How about Grahams disagreement hierarchy which I have seen used many times in discussion here. Attached below.

What about argument from authority - most of the time, those offering this as a for basis for being right do not have the correct authority or are not in receipt of all the facts or have applied them incorrectly. Most debates seem to end in what is known as informal fallacy where the logic fails to support the conclusion. 

So if we add a statement to the medical vaccine and medicine argument that says - You as the final consumer only get to see 10% of the research because 90% doesn't actually support the objective. Or how about the cure for cancer is being withheld by the pill companies as to release it would put tens of thousands out of work and create a huge dent in the economic viability of the world. Given that would you still be a nay sayer, would you still be so sure that you know stuff and that vaccine really does  work?

Personal argument - first hand input surely counts for something. I can tell you that they only time I have had flu in the past fifteen years, was the year I was duped into having a flu shot and will never go there again.  Is your argument based on the fact that since you had the shots you have not had flu. Does that make me stupid and a believer in the illuminati or a member of Anonymous. Maybe....but you already knew that didn't you? :Wink:

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Citizen X (18-Nov-13), Dave A (14-Nov-13), Trickzta (14-Nov-13)

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## Trickzta

A sample of the post in "Spotlight on vaccinations". Any info remotely scientific to repudiate these facts, graphs, figures presented in the full post will be more than welcome. If this site can be proven to be false, incorrect, mistaken or mis-informed in any way, then please expose them. If (intentionally) false then these claims are criminal. Interesting read, genuine was my first impression but if this is BS then I'll shave my head (both hairs) and vaccinate every under nourished baby on the planet.

In a recent article Peter Doshi, Ph.D reiterated this position. He declared that:
The vaccine may be less beneficial and less safe than has been claimed, and the threat of influenza seems to be overstated… This means that influenza vaccines are approved for use in older people despite any clinical trials demonstrating a reduction in serious outcomes.[8] 
He also stated that public officials only need to claim that the vaccine saves lives and that most people, including doctors, assume there is solid research behind the claim and unfortunately that is not the case. So in seniors – the group that has the greatest need – there really isn’t any good science to backup the use of the flu vaccine.
What about in children under 1 year of age where there is also a higher mortality rate? After all, the CDC currently recommends children 6 months and older get a flu vaccine. A 2008 study found no evidence as to the benefits of flu vaccination in children under two years of age.
…vaccine effectiveness was not clearly shown in children under 2 years of age. Further studies using different methods, in different locations, and in different seasons, are needed to clarify the effectiveness of influenza vaccine among young children.[9]

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## pmbguy

A vaccine contains a killed or weakened part of a germ that is responsible for infection. Because the germ has been killed or weakened before it is used to make the vaccine, it cannot make the person sick. When a person receives a vaccine, the body reacts by making protective substances called "antibodies". The antibodies are the body's defenders because they help to kill off the germs that enter the body. In other words, vaccines expose people safely to germs, so that they can become protected from a disease but not come down with the disease http://www.health.ny.gov/prevention/...cines_work.htm

As my lecturer explained to us 101:  The active core is removed and our bodies react with appropriate antibodies to the virus shell. The vaccinated virus is inert and mute. It cant replicate. Therefore it cant make you sick. You might experience some side effects (typical to the virus), BUT it wont make you sick.
Vaccines in general are good.. 
Personally I wont go for flu shots because by the time it is synthesized the actual Influenza virus has mutated, so I think that a flu shot is pointless. BUT make no mistake. Vaccines against the big baby killers is no joke so dont be a fool.

By NOT having your kids vaccinated you risk all!

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## Dave A

I was wondering when you'd move the spotlight onto flu vaccines. May I take it you concede the points favouring polio vaccinations then?




> In a recent article Peter Doshi, Ph.D reiterated this position. He declared that:
> The vaccine may be less beneficial and less safe than has been claimed, and the threat of influenza seems to be overstated… This means that influenza vaccines are approved for use in older people despite any clinical trials demonstrating a reduction in serious outcomes.[8] 
> He also stated that public officials only need to claim that the vaccine saves lives and that most people, including doctors, assume there is solid research behind the claim and unfortunately that is not the case.


There are some interesting redactions in that snippet. You'd almost think that mainstream medical opinion had been duped into thinking that flu vaccines were a reliable way to prevent influenza, particularly in old people  :Stick Out Tongue: 

My experience is the medical profession is *well* aware of the inherent limitations of flu vaccines, as well as the nature of the threat the flu virus poses to health - which is  a little like the threat posed to earth by asteroids; the vast majority are barely significant but in the past and likely at some point in the future, one comes along that has far reaching consequences.

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## pmbguy

Like the 1918 influenza outbreak which killed more people than the Great war itself

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## Trickzta

Disclaimer; applicable to all my posts in this forum and elsewhere. My posts are opinion and are not intended to influence any decisions especially those that are related to health or Medical issues. Consulting a professional is strongly recommended before any change to your medical regime is considered, whether such change or thought of changing is derived from content in my posts or not. Always consulting an expert before following advice from any source is, in my opinion, good practice.

I am not a medical professional by any means or any stretch of imagination, I’m not qualified to give medical advice. My posts are not to be seen as medical advice, I strongly recommend consulting a professional with any concerns or health issues before making any decisions on health matters. Please consult with your GP or your professional of choice before drawing conclusions from my posts including links to third parties, or any other posts that appear on internet in any form or shape. This thread has tilted off topic to some degree, nevertheless, it is healthy to debate in an open and honest manner, presenting available data in good faith without attacking the people who have an opposite view to the one you present, whether that viewpoint is what you truly believe or not.

A debate or discussion should be viewed as a means to broaden our knowledge and/or understanding of the subject matter and related issues and in some cases, unrelated issues. To approach such debate with a ‘win by any means’ attitude defeats the object, in fact the notion of winners and losers detracts from the essence of such debate and often debases the content by evolving into a personal battle of wits and/or a exchange that ridicules the oppositions viewpoint, sometimes even causing personal insults to replace ordered discussion based on verifiable points of contention. This is my opinion.

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Citizen X (18-Nov-13)

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## Citizen X

> This thread has tilted off topic to some degree, nevertheless, it is healthy to debate in an open and honest manner, presenting available data in good faith without attacking the people who have an opposite view to the one you present, whether that viewpoint is what you truly believe or not.
> 
> A debate or discussion should be viewed as a means to broaden our knowledge and/or understanding of the subject matter and related issues and in some cases, unrelated issues. To approach such debate with a ‘win by any means’ attitude defeats the object, in fact the notion of winners and losers detracts from the essence of such debate and often debases the content by evolving into a personal battle of wits and/or a exchange that ridicules the oppositions viewpoint, sometimes even causing personal insults to replace ordered discussion based on verifiable points of contention. This is my opinion.


Hi Trickzta :Big Grin: 

I couldn't agree more with what you've said in this specific post! You needn't be overly concerned with references etc, it's personal preferance. Of course, a reference or link helps the discussion at hand.

 I can tell that you have alot to share, you should continue to share. There's nothing whatsoever wrong with different opinions.

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Trickzta (18-Nov-13)

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## Trickzta

Thank you for the post Vanash, I appreciate your wisdom and encouragement, I greatly appreciate it.

Thanks to Marq for adding the 10% fit for public consumption attitude of TPTB (the powers that be) into the mix, it begs the question; how much of the 10% we have access to is genuine data or what percentage of the 10% is fried and served as boiled? Nice post thank you and I'm of the opinion that in the absence of valid scientific data that this or a new thread diversify to include other myths, Myths, and conspiracy facts that are theories no more.

*Amazingly I’m not the only person that has nagging doubts about the blind belief displayed by the general public’s tendency to believe all they’re told even when faced with overwhelming resistance from Doctors, Professors, Scientists and many unqualified but sound minded individuals or groups all of which call attention to the absence of science or scientific data in the vaccine industry.

Please, read what this Lady and mother, Yvonne, has to say, and post a comment if you have anything to say or add to this info.*
http://biosil.wordpress.com/2013/01/...s-south-africa

*more at;*
www.biosil.co.za
www.facebook.com/BiosilSA

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## Trickzta

Let's kick off a new thread that ticks off the list of theories that are theories no more. An old and tired subject to be sure, but one that has affected us all indirectly and millions are still paying the price of actions that were initiated and carried out as a direct result of the deception in laying the blame on innocent people (innocent of performing this heinous crime).

Although I am a philosopher of religion and theologian, I have spent most of my time during the past three years on 9/11—studying it, writing about it, and speaking about it. In this lecture, I will try to make clear why I believe this issue worthy of so much time and energy. I will do this in terms of the distinction between myth and reality.
I am here using the term “myth” in two senses. In one sense, a myth if an idea that, while widely believed, is false, failing to correspond with reality.
In a deeper sense, which is employed by students of religion, a myth serves as an orienting and mobilizing story for a people, a story that reminds them who they are and why they do what they do. When a story is called as a myth in this sense—which we can call Myth with a capital M—the focus is not on the story’s relation to reality but on its function. This orienting and mobilizing function is possible, moreover, only because Myths with a capital M have religious overtones. Such a Myth is a Sacred Story.
However, although to note that a story functions as a Myth in the religious sense is not necessarily to deny its truth, a story cannot function as a Sacred Myth within a community or nation unless it is believed to be true. In most cases, moreover, the truth of the Myth is taken on faith. It is not a matter of debate. If some people have the bad taste to question the truth of the Sacred Story, the keepers of the faith do not enter into debate with them. Rather, they ignore them or denounce them as blasphemers.
http://davidraygriffin.com/articles/...d-the-reality/

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## Trickzta

I am not conceding anything at this stage, I'm not running away from meaningful discussion or exchange of info. 
*In this post I include two articles released by the CDC, and one article from an obscure source. There are other sites that support the obscure version but I chose this one as in my opinion the site has nothing to gain from the article being put in the public domain. Please correct me if I’m wrong.*

http://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/qa/1918flupandemic.htm
*The Official Version of the 1918 flu pandemic.* 
It is impossible to predict with certainly, but the probability of the 1918 virus re-emerging from a natural source appears to be remote. Influenza experts believe that a pandemic is most likely to be caused by an influenza subtype to which there is little, or no, preexisting immunity in the human population. There is evidence that some residual immunity to the 1918 virus, or a similar virus, is present in at least a portion of the human population. Since contemporary H1N1 viruses circulate widely and the current annual influenza vaccines contain an H1N1 component, a 1918-like H1N1 virus would not fit the current criteria for a new pandemic strain.

http://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/qa/1918flupandemic.htm
*Below is taken from the opening paragraph, notice the mention of the ….. next pandemic.*
Scientists at the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention have successfully reconstructed the influenza virus strain responsible for the 1918 pandemic, a project that greatly advances preparedness efforts for the next pandemic.
Currently available antiviral drugs have been shown to be effective against influenza viruses similar to the 1918 influenza virus. *Shown to who? This is the vaccine that we find most ……..what word best describes our expressed opinions concerning the “flu-shots”?*

http://zaidpub.com/2013/11/15/the-sp...-vaccinations/ 
*An unofficial version of the same pandemic first published in 1976 (I think that the date is 1976 based on this extract)* Now (1976) we are being worked on again by the vaccine -epidemic makers in their effort to force another multi million dollar vaccine sale caper. Their con men have already talked President Ford into handing over $135 million dollars to start their vaccine racket. Even the insurance companies refused to become involved with such an obviously dangerous and crooked scheme.

*More from this absurd, obscene and obscure site.*
Vaccine drives come and go as often as the vaccine promoters can cook up the slightest pretense of a reason.n Back in1957 they were trying to stir up a vaccination campaign for what they decided to call Asiatic flu. An editorial in the Herald and Express for August 29, 1957 was captioned, “Fear of Flu Propaganda.” Part of the piece is as follows:
“What a tempest in a teapot has been blown up over the probability that this country will experience an epidemic of the Asiatic flu in the fall and winter months ahead.
 “Even the United States Department of Health is stooge for the panic — and has issued statements which are frightening the public, rather than reassuring them by pointing out that this epidemic, while widespread, gives no indication of being any more dangerous than our usual flood of influenza-like colds when winter comes on.
“Those who read between the lines even wonder whether the whole thing might not be a bit of super salesmanship on the part of those who are making and selling the vaccines which are being prepared.. . .”
*7 times more? * 

There was seven times more disease among the vaccinated soldiers than among the unvaccinated civilians, and the diseases were those they had been vaccinated against


*Two for and one against posts concerning vaccines; - any comments? 
Another source of the same article appears below, added because the source of the article is mentioned*

One soldier who had returned from overseas in 1912 told me that the army hospitals were filled with cases of infantile paralysis and he wondered why grown men should have an infant disease. Now, we know that paralysis is a common after-effect of vaccine poisoning. Those at home didn’t get the paralysis until after the world-wide vaccination campaign in 1918.

This article is excerpt from  Swine Flu Expose – a book by Eleanora I. McBean, Ph.D., N.D.

Read More At http://www.getholistichealth.com/377...-vaccinations/

Another tasty article from the same source; http://www.getholistichealth.com/381...out-of-people/

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## Trickzta

*Here is a film of over an hour in length that presents vaccines in a manner conducive to discussion and to the exchange of knowledge, the film is presented by a third party on Dr Mercola’s web site. Admittedly the site is an independent source of information and ideas that often challenge the way that Medicine and Medical practices are perceived. The challenges are not emotionally charged nor motivated, but set out in a way that invites opposing views to be presented or defended with reliable works and studies and other ethical means at their disposal. It invites scientific argument to clear up any inconsistencies, be they perceived or be they real, and most of all it urges full disclosure of all relevant facts, without favour or prejudice.* * Note, all my opinions appear between stars or asterisks if you prefer. All my posts and opinions are without prejudice.* 
"THE GREATER GOOD looks behind the fear, hype and politics that have polarized the vaccine debate in America today. 
The film re-frames the emotionally charged issue and offers, for the first time, the opportunity for a rational and scientific discussion on how to create a safer and more effective vaccine program." 
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/ar..._rid=338914353


The film seeks to open the channels of communication between parents, doctors, and policy makers to listen and learn from each other in order to begin a rational discussion about vaccine safety. After all, don't all of us want our kids to be healthy and safe from unnecessary harm?

Public health officials have long insisted that vaccines are the best way to protect the public health. As a result, the number of doses of vaccines included in the childhood vaccination schedule has tripled over the past 30 years, from 23 doses of seven different vaccines in 1980 to 69 doses of 16 different vaccines in 2010.
However, alongside the rise in administered vaccines, we've also seen a significant rise in children with chronic disease and disabilities. For whatever reason, our kids are getting sicker. Infant mortality has also risen. In 1960, America ranked 12th in infant mortality among all nations of the world. By 2005, we ranked 30th. Furthermore, more full term babies die before their first birthday in the US1 than in most European countries, and the US gives its infants more vaccines than any other country in the world. 
So, could it all be a coincidence? 
The truth is, we don't know. 
*the article is also of interest, worthy of reading if you have no inclination to watch the film*

*Another post of possible interest to those seeking truth,*
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/ar...s-vaccine.aspx
Story at-a-glance
•	American children are among the most highly vaccinated in the world. Over 90 percent of American toddlers have received a measles-containing MMR shot by age three, along with 10 other government recommended vaccines 
•	Americans born before 1957 have naturally acquired immunity to measles and we passed antibodies on to our babies when they were born to protect them from measles during the first year of life 
•	Because vaccine antibodies are different from naturally-acquired measles antibodies, young vaccinated moms today cannot give longer lasting naturally acquired measles antibodies to their newborns 
•	We have seen a militarization of the public health system in the past century to justify global vaccination campaigns 
•	The public conversation about vaccination, health and autonomy has become ugly and divisive in the 21st century because the War on Disease has been turned into a War on Values and Beliefs 
*the last point in the Story-at-a-glance is sadly true and depressing as we and science are the poorer because of this shortcoming. (opinion)*


Internet Resources Where You Can Learn More 
I encourage you to visit the following web pages on the National Vaccine Information Center (NVIC) website at www.NVIC.org: 
•	NVIC Memorial for Vaccine Victims: View descriptions and photos of children and adults, who have suffered vaccine reactions, injuries and deaths. If you or your child experiences an adverse vaccine event, please consider posting and sharing your story here. 
•	If You Vaccinate, Ask 8 Questions: Learn how to recognize vaccine reaction symptoms and prevent vaccine injuries. 
•	Vaccine Freedom Wall: View or post descriptions of harassment and sanctions by doctors, employers, school and health officials for making independent vaccine choices. 
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/ar...s-vaccine.aspx

*I’m not sure that these hotlinks will be active after posting, but they can be accessed here, www.NVIC.org:*


A person sees a blue sky, and is told that the colour they are seeing is blue, but the cells in a person's brain could be changed to make the sky look green or red. 
Our consciousness makes sense of the world, and can be altered to change this interpretation.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencete...#ixzz2kzZmB4J9 
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook

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## Trickzta

*Info worth sharing is to be found here*
http://www.greenmedinfo.com/blog/fai...32bbc-86914041

This study not only clearly calls into question the standard of care for preventing hepatitis B infection in infants born to infected mothers, but it also challenges core tenets of vaccinology, including hepatitis B vaccine safety and effectiveness

*More on vaccines here;*
http://articles.mercola.com/sites/ar...s-vaccine.aspx
http://vaccines.mercola.com/

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## Citizen X

> Thank you for the post Vanash, I appreciate your wisdom and encouragement, I greatly appreciate it.
> 
> Thanks to Marq for adding the 10% fit for public consumption attitude of TPTB (the powers that be) into the mix, it begs the question; how much of the 10% we have access to is genuine data or what percentage of the 10% is fried and served as boiled? Nice post thank you and I'm of the opinion that in the absence of valid scientific data that this or a new thread diversify to include other myths, Myths, and conspiracy facts that are theories no more.
> 
> *Amazingly I’m not the only person that has nagging doubts about the blind belief displayed by the general public’s tendency to believe all they’re told even when faced with overwhelming resistance from Doctors, Professors, Scientists and many unqualified but sound minded individuals or groups all of which call attention to the absence of science or scientific data in the vaccine industry.
> 
> Please, read what this Lady and mother, Yvonne, has to say, and post a comment if you have anything to say or add to this info.*
> http://biosil.wordpress.com/2013/01/...s-south-africa
> 
> ...



You raise pretty interesting topics and opinions, _I just think that you try too hard_ :Confused: , nothing wrong there :Big Grin: ! 

What I'm driving at is simply this; you needn't put forward your opinion in a strenuous manner. We all have different styles, personalities, time constraints etc. Do what is comfortable for you!
I personally think that you have a lot to offer TFSA, _just don’t try so hard_, also enjoy the debate where you can.
Continue making your contribution! I look forward to your future posts.. :Big Grin: 
V

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## pmbguy

Just to add to what Vanash said. Rather argue one specific point at a time. You are posting so much that nobody could possibly respond to everything, its way too schizophrenic. Keep to one point where you can and perhaps we can have a healthy debate.

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## Dave A

> Just to add to what Vanash said. Rather argue one specific point at a time. You are posting so much that nobody could possibly respond to everything, its way too schizophrenic. Keep to one point where you can and perhaps we can have a healthy debate.


Seems the strategy is to bury any inconvenient point with lots and lots of mud. 

My question on the status of the debate on the polio vaccine is "answered" with yet another flood of flu related cut and paste posting. And even that does not pick up or engage in any way to the points on flu made by others.

There is no debate to be had here, except perhaps just how long we should allow the cut and paste dumping to continue.
I'm starting to think there's already more than enough trash that needs to be cleared out...

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## Trickzta

Had the victims been vaccinated against polio?
Pretty safely assuming not, if you couldn't get to them with a needle and syringe to give a vaccination shot despite repeated efforts, what are your chances of getting them onto a sewerage system?

Probably more remote than getting them onto a fixed line telephone (which admittedly is an abstract thought to file away for now).

Dave, If this is the question you refer to, then I apologise for not replying sooner. truth is it is not easy to verify this fact without using unreliable sources that cannot be cross referenced. I've read that the one side blames vaccines for the epidemics and the other side blames the un-vaccinated. I could not reply with any confidence, but will make any new developments known as soon as I am aware of them.

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## Trickzta

Off topic posts of possible interest.

http://fellowshipoftheminds.com/2013/11/18/a-new-stamp/
Stamp turns sticky after 1,7 million dollar Federal investigation

http://pacificrimcoins.com/content/h...fect-us-dollar
Has this anything to do with the replacement of Ben Burnanke of the “not in any way” Federal “depleted” Reserve?  

http://www.activistpost.com/2013/11/...wer-tells.html 
The American people are still being told that quantitative easing is "economic stimulus" which will make the lives of average Americans better.

That is a flat out lie and the folks over at the Federal Reserve know this.


http://www.activistpost.com/2013/09/...ing-on-gm.html 
Is this the next logical step in man’s quest to conquer nature? Will the FDA give the green light to this ………

http://www.activistpost.com/2013/07/...asy-steps.html 
It's much like how the Feds patted themselves on the back for shutting down Napster, and we all know what happened after that.

http://www.sprword.com/mustread.html
"The left is far more infiltrated by actual paid agents of the FBI and the CIA, and the like, than most of us on the left are willing to think about seriously. The CIA...has virtually unlimited funds. It is above and beyond the law and it knows no moral constraints. It has no financial or moral or legal constraints to stop it from doing whatever it's going to do. There's a tremendously large number of CIA agents who are moles within the media. They occupy positions, high and low, throughout the newspaper, television, radio, and book publishing industries." –Barrie Zwicker
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NysNhGUe9B0
This 5min some seconds video connects Anonymous, Justin Bieber and Wikileaks to the FBSpy. Why would the FBI pass secret info to Julian Astrange? 


Fellowship of the Minds 
"In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act." -George Orwell 
http://fellowshipoftheminds.com/2013...the-real-laws/
A look at the real laws that influence our lives reveals answers that are undeniably a daily part of modern day living.




Why would the CIA supply Edward Snowden with sensitive info? Why can a country that 15 minutes after global warming melted the structural supports keeping the twin towers up, find an ex-USA trained guerilla hiding in a cave with no aircon, but in the case of CIA asset Snowden, this country can’t find him camping in a Hong Kong airport? Snowden gave press interviews but the best intelligence in the world could not find him?

Intelligence Agencies being above the law in many cases, are continually striving to be the top dog in order to get the biggest bone when Federal Money is budgeted to various agencies involved in matters of National Security. With the coming of the technology driven computer age, the emphasis on spying moved from Dirty Harry wannabe 007 type ops to geeky nerd computer hacking info stealing scifi ops.

The money allocated to the NSA (for upgrade of computers) increases each year while the dollars allocated to the CIA keeps dwindling. Understandably the traditional leader in espionage is not happy that the new kid on the block, the NSA, can afford the computers that the CIA cannot afford but dearly desire.

How’s it possible that a contractor could get so much highly classified data from the password protected computer banks of the highly sophisticated NSA? The NSA has strict security measures and counter measures that include or could include, fingerprint and eye scanning checks, password protection sometimes needing two individual personnel to simultaneously request access, Flags that pop up when sensitive files are accessed, CCTV cameras watching the CCTV cameras watching all employees moves, checkpoints where heartbeat rates, body temperatures, body weight, clamminess of hands and other traits like eye movement are monitored and compared to previously captured data. 

Getting in past these security check points requires a ‘clearance level rating’ that restricts the card-holder to accessing only the places that he has clearance for. Then in order to access a wide variety of classified ‘secret’ data the personal passwords of many computer operators or the password of a highly placed Supervisory Official with a password over-ride capacity is needed to access sensitive files. 

The activation of the Supervisory password over-ride function would also be flagged as would any large or general download of classified data. Storing the data would require a lot of memory which would be bulky unless the contractor had yet undisclosed access to a nanotechnology produced memory gadget capable of storing trillions of terabytes of data.

The contractor Edward Snowden (CIA Asset) would carry out all this and then walk out of the building without anyone noticing. Even Chuck Norris would be daunted by this task. But we’ll believe it because the US Government would never betray the trust of its citizens by telling pork pies.

Whether it was motivated by professional jealousy, the fact that the NSA serves Obama and the CIA the elite or whether it was a joint op between Agencies, the ‘whistle blowing revelations’ should be viewed as highly suspect, as should anything that any Spy Agency has been within a thousand miles of. Nothing they say or do is anywhere near the ‘official line’ given as explanation. These agents have become so adept at subterfuge that they blush if they manage to tell the truth, even when asked which team they support. A truthful statement is regarded as a slip of the tongue. Repeat offenders are eliminated without further ado.

Ever wondered why Super Powers that threaten to nuke each other and wipe their adversaries from the face of this earth are the same Super Powers sharing a facility in space? Talking of shuttles, ever noticed how Mossad Agents shuttle between Super Powers whenever Really Big Decisions are in the making? Ever notice how ‘puppet’ regimes installed by Super Powers are financed and armed with US taxpayers money lose favour overnight and then toppled from power and replaced with another ‘puppet’ leader?

Ever notice how terminology has a way of conveying a deceptive message and how some terms change in meaning from time to time? If we hire people to fight alongside us, they are deemed to be ‘mercenaries’ – the same people hired by the USA are called ‘contractors’. Terrorists become Freedom Fighters, Dead Civilians become Collateral Damage, Hasty Retreat becomes a Tactical Withdrawal, Exposing the Truth is called Treason, Posting the Truth is called Activism, Armchair Computer users are called Activists, Fooling the People with lies is called Politics. Etc.

Ever wondered why the Nation that spends the most (by far) on Medical Services per capita, has the lowest life expectancy? (USA)
Ever wondered why the Nation that spends the most on Education per capita, has the lowest standard of education? (RSA)
Ever wondered where I get the time to post baloney? It’s the time I’ve saved by using the not yet toll road system. See E-Toll post in General Forum.

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## pmbguy

> Seems the strategy is to bury any inconvenient point with lots and lots of mud. 
> 
> My question on the status of the debate on the polio vaccine is "answered" with yet another flood of flu related cut and paste posting. And even that does not pick up or engage in any way to the points on flu made by others.
> 
> There is no debate to be had here, except perhaps just how long we should allow the cut and paste dumping to continue.
> I'm starting to think there's already more than enough trash that needs to be cleared out...


Dave - Pissing in the wind there are we?

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## Marq

I have a real job to get to - where there is too much to read already - then we are going surfing.........

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## pmbguy

> I have a real job to get to - where there is too much to read already - then we are going surfing.........


Lucky man, stop making us jealous dam you

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## Dave A

> Had the victims been vaccinated against polio?
> Pretty safely assuming not, if you couldn't get to them with a needle and syringe to give a vaccination shot despite repeated efforts, what are your chances of getting them onto a sewerage system?
> 
> Probably more remote than getting them onto a fixed line telephone (which admittedly is an abstract thought to file away for now).
> 
> Dave, If this is the question you refer to, then I apologise for not replying sooner. truth is it is not easy to verify this fact without using unreliable sources that cannot be cross referenced. I've read that the one side blames vaccines for the epidemics and the other side blames the un-vaccinated.


It's nowhere near as simple as that. Given the geopolitics on this one, an "anti-polio-vaccine drive" could be seen by cynics as an Al Qaeda plot to infect Europe (and beyond) via unvaccinated refugees from an area that has had a known outbreak of polio.

And I can't see Europe relying on the quality of their sewerage system to protect them from the risk without some rather rigorous testing of the theory in advance either (which is blown the moment someone takes a dump near a water source that someone might swim in anyway - which happens all the time during the Duzi Canoe Marathon apparently).




> http://www.activistpost.com/2013/11/...wer-tells.html 
> The American people are still being told that quantitative easing is "economic stimulus" which will make the lives of average Americans better.
> 
> That is a flat out lie and the folks over at the Federal Reserve know this.


Actually that would be a pretty good opening post for a new thread on the subject - Is quantitative easing working? Or something along that line.
Pretty on-theme for TFSA too, I think.

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Citizen X (20-Nov-13)

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## Citizen X

> _ The American people are still being told that quantitative easing is "economic stimulus" which will make the lives of average Americans better.
> 
> That is a flat out lie and the folks over at the Federal Reserve know this._





> 


Hi Trickzta,

Youve now made a good submission; try to focus on this hypothesis without being evasive. The idea is that after debate your final conclusion must be able to be reconciled with your premise.
1. When you want to respond to a specific TFSA members comments, might I suggest that you use the reply with quote, ribbon[bottom right of every post]. This will make it much easier to follow the debate;
2. _You clearly invest time in your posts_; focus on the quality instead of the quantity, try and summarize your source; and by doping so youll be incisive
3. If theres one thing Ive learnt from you, then its got to be how to be evasive. _In certain fields this is a good quality._ The spin doctors, of our country are masters in this;
4. Upon joining TFSA I too started with lengthy posts that were difficult to follow, I too was unaware of the reply with quote, ribbon. I too had to learn how to deal with criticism [we all can learn from each other and this has the potential of making us better people in the bigger stage of life]. Im still learning from fellow TFSA members, this wont change;
5. When a TFSA member place any of your issues in dispute, the reply with quote ribbon will prove to be invaluable to you in responding;
6. Let us also know more about yourself if not for any other reason than simply so that TFSA members can get to know you over the passage of time;
7. Try not to get hung up on excruciating detail and thereby stifle protracted debate
Try the reply with quote, facility with any post in this thread just to get things going in the right direction
Just my 2 cents

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## Justloadit

Overwhelming dumping your opposition with data is one sure way of thinking that you will win the debate, as the opposition will not spend time sifting through the data.

Just remember this is a public forum, and quite honestly I have about 20 minutes a day to see what is interesting on the forum, so any post that has more than 10 lines will be skipped. There is more interesting threads to go through.

So if you want to attract attention, and engage in meaningful debate,  I suggest you form your opinion of any article you may have found, and in your opinion you reference the article that you have formed your opinion on, using meaningful facts from the article referred. If there is a forum member, who may wish to engage in the debate, they can then invest their time in reading the article and replying in the same manner, with any references that they find else where.

Be prepared to accept that not many are going to read anything that you may post and refer to, it's the nature of an open subject public forum. Not every one has the same interest as you, or the amount of spare time to engage.

SO the fact that there may be no reply to any of your posts does not lead to the validity of the fact in the post.

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## mvubu

Throwing mud and seeing what sticks is not a valid method of debate and research. 
Outrageous claims require outrageous evidence to back it up and I am not seeing much, just quack-pot websites and reams of blurb with little content.

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