# Social Category > South African Politics Forum >  Bin Laden - some are good, even the bad. Some are bad, even the good.

## ChrisNG53

In a clandestine operation a group of men entered a foreign country, without permission of its government, attacked a domestic residence, killed three people including a woman, made off with the body of one of them; which they subsequently dumped in the ocean, without participation of the relatives of the deceased. 
These are the facts of the matter. They were a consequence of a wanted dead or alive notice issued by George Bush, previous President of the united States of America.

In reaction, nearly the whole world has expressed approval, ranging from satisfaction, solemn exaltation to wild exuberance. We have done this, even though the Wild West days in which men were flushed out by a posse, and killed on a wanted dead or alive notice, are long gone.  

This world is made up of mostly good people who, by and large, insist on certain sacred principles. These include the fact that a person is presumed to be innocent until proved guilty before an independent adjudicating authority; that extra judicial killing is murder; that one cannot be accuser, judge/jury and executioner. The fact that the execution was on foreign soil, after clandestine invasion, is aggravating of the violation of these dearly held sacred beliefs and norms, embedded in a raft of dogmata called human rights. Indeed these rights are enshrined in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights signed off by nearly all governments at the United Nations.

That is our belief set. They are a fundamental component of what we insist on, fight for and defend, having learnt from the lessons of history. We say that anything short of this is injustice. We say that an injustice to one is an injustice to all.


"We are bound by an inescapable garment of mutuality, whatever affects one directly, affects all indirectly." -Dr. Martin Luther King, jr.
- letter from the Birmingham Jail, 1962
But for the fact that the victim was Osama Bin Laden, we would have undoubtedly had an entirely opposite reaction and would have expressed negative emotions, ranging from disapproval to extreme condemnation. 

In my book1 I advert to a saying that  some are good even the bad, some are bad even the good. The phenomenon of Bin Laden has managed to emphatically validate this saying. Many believe that bad boy Bin Laden was good. However the vast majority of good folk the world over, have suddenly ignored/changed all of the most fundamental and sacred rules that we post at the very center of unalienable human rights.  

We have this bad approach because we have accepted what has been served up by the media. Bin Laden has been caricatured as the devil incarnate. At a stroke the awful power of the media is demonstrated. It has induced an almost universal anti Bin Laden hysteria. In that hysteria we fail to distinguish what is information and what is proof beyond reasonable doubt. We abandon all standards and our sacred beliefs. We have all accepted information from the media, not evidence, let alone proof beyond a reasonable doubt.

In the process Bin Laden, and those who died with him, accused and convicted of nothing, were divested of all their human rights  as were the 2752 innocent victims from 97 countries on 9/11, as well as so many others around the world. The blood of the innocents cry out, not so much for justice as for vengeance. 

So as much as we may profess to believe in standards that accord with a level of personal integrity that we have assigned ourselves as civilized human beings, in the end we have been forced to accept that the ancients were not wrong when they insisted on an eye for an eye. *

All of the above is guaranteed once some believe that the gratuitous killing of other innocent human beings is justified in order to make a political statement. This thinking is grotesque, obscene and abhorrent on every count  and we instinctively all know that no God can approve of it. 
__________________________________________________  ______________________
1The Other without fear, favor or prejudice. (See - http://theother.orgfree.com/)
* a further point made in the book

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## Dave A

I had to say it was the wierdest thing watching the Obama announcement of the killing of Bin Laden in one frame on TV, with the adjacent frame showing crowds in New York rejoicing to the news.

What we think of as civilised behaviour in civilised nations sure is a thin veneer of the beast within at times.

At least there wasn't a parade through the streets with the decapitated head of the enemy on a stick... but it didn't seem that far off watching it.

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## ChrisNG53

> What we think of as civilised behaviour in civilised nations sure is a thin veneer of the beast within at times.


In my book I make the point that mankind is as barbaric as ever. Surely I am vindicated.

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## murdock

i wonder if the body was actually dumped in the sea or taken to the same place they keep the aliens...elvis...hilter and the rest

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## Martinco

Chris, are you saying that you do not approve of the killing of Osama  or only the way in which it was done.? 
George Bush did say that he is declaring war on terrorism and I guess Osama declared war on USA when he ordered the WTC to be destroyed. Osama was a terrorist and it was said that the US will seek him out and "deal" with him but he did not co-operate in this deal.  I guess war is war and like with any war, there will be casualties !

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## murdock

nelson mandela...was also a terrorists...who killed inoccent people...he got a nobel peace prize

mcbride also comes to mind...i was in the entrance where the womens body came flying thru the door from the explosion...and i  had to carry injured people out the building to the ambulances...why was there never a dead or alive bounty put on their heads??? or does it only work on the amount of people you...if you only kill one or 2 people you become the the chief of police...you kill a couple more you become the president of a country...but if you kill a couple thousands you get a price put on your head....mmmmm i must not read or reply to this thread anymore it is starting to make me angry again its taken years to work thru it and come toterms with what i saw and have had to live with for 20 months while in the bush...and yes some people will say but you werent a recce or any special forces...the difference i was never trained nor was i equipment to deal with what i experienced just dumped back into society after 20 months in the bush...i was just a scared 17 year old...after watching your mate put a rifle in his mouth and blow himself to bits you get tough quick...or do you?

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## ChrisNG53

> Chris, are you saying that you do not approve of the killing of Osama  or only the way in which it was done.? 
> George Bush did say that he is declaring war on terrorism and I guess Osama declared war on USA when he ordered the WTC to be destroyed. Osama was a terrorist and it was said that the US will seek him out and "deal" with him but he did not co-operate in this deal.  I guess war is war and like with any war, there will be casualties !


Personally I am glad the swine is dead and hope he rots in hell.

But, and it is a big but, the REALITY is that he has been executed, without evidence, without trial, in an illegal operation by "hitmen". I

That is the reality, whichever way you want to bake.

What we know about Bin Laden we have got entirely from the media. That is _information_, _not evidence_. 

So I am drawing attention to the fact that we, (just about the whole world) are quite happy to tear up all our sacred principles ... etc ... because of who the SUSPECT is! Look, you can't be killing suspects - Surely?

And I point out that it all starts with those who believe in killing, bombing, blowing up innocent people to make a political point. 

In short, here we have the ultimate irony, and we, as mankind, are being shown up for the barbaric savages that we actually are. ts a point that I made in my book and, once again, I am vindicated.

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## Dave A

> In short, here we have the ultimate irony, and we, as mankind, are being shown up for the barbaric savages that we actually are.


*Barbaric* or merely *brutal*?

If we stick to the process and execution, it seems the entire operation was very clinical. From a purely analytical point of view, the USA achieved a remarkable "best solution" from a collection of bad options available to them. There'll be repercussions, I'm sure, but nothing compared to if they had gone any other way.

I suggest Martin makes a telling point - it was war. Both sides quite openly saw it that way. And this is the sort of thing that happens...
War is brutal - it doesn't have to be barbaric, at least not nowadays.

No, it wasn't the action itself that got to me as "primitive" or "barbaric," it was the celebration in what I saw as a very sombre moment.

@ Murdock. I suggest Nelson Mandela got the Nobel Peace Prize for his part in making the peace from a time of madness...
And holding a grudge doesn't help make the peace.

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## ChrisNG53

Dave A - 


> Barbaric or merely brutal


I think we are in broad agreement. The difference is in emphasis. In the book I was dealing with the argument about having the death penalty or not.

Extract from my book
As regards the moral argument, this to my mind, must also fall down once one has to concede that the killing of another is perfectly justified in certain circumstances. An example is when a father finds his child being raped and strangled. No one will blame the father if he there and then puts the attacker to death. Starting at that point it then becomes somewhat artificial to attempt to draw a line in the sand and say that a point has been reached where killing is now immoral. If armed men arrive at your home at night must you wait until they kill first? If you have failed to stop an intruder from shooting your wife, who is now lying in a pool of blood, must you leave the attacker to escape and not fire on him? As said the moral argument must fail for being, in effect, artificial in its parameters. 

And regrettably there are some who do not share the noble ideas espoused by the abolitionist school regarding the sanctity of human life. There are some incredibly evil people who will plan, rape, torture and strangle even a five year old child. To my mind it is logical to say that such people forfeit the right to their own lives apart from being a danger to others. In these circumstances the ancient biblical adage of "eye for and eye and a tooth for a tooth" has merit and resonates in the hearts of most human beings. 
In categorizing such ancient counsel as barbaric, instead of respecting it as ancient wisdom; we arrogantly accord ourselves, as supposedly modern civilized beings, a standard that is simply untrue. 

The truth is that man is more barbaric than ever. Proof reposes in the fact that, despite having the so called United Nations, at unbelievable public expense, rape, torture and genocide is flourishing and so is the insidious killing of humans by way of needless deprivation, exposure and starvation. Obscene is the fact that more people have been killed in the name of religion, i.e., moral grounds, than for any other reason in history. Despots, tyrants and killers are routinely lauded, revered and lionized as great leaders. We are as "uncivilized" and as "barbaric' as ever, and should not hypocritically presume to be otherwise. 

We certainly appear to have little basis for disdainfully rejecting the ancient wisdom of our forefathers who to my mind were saying, in their "_eye for and eye, tooth for a tooth -_ " statement, no more than we now profess to say  
_"Justice must not only be done, it must also be seen to be done"._

End Extract
I would drive home my point by insisting that if South Africa was also faced with a Bin Laden it would not hesitate to to do what the Americans have done and, in the process, breach all its own laws - including its "sanctimonious" stance against the death penalty.
And let us not forget that two other people were killed in the "hit". 
To my mind this culture of "kill or be killed" is barbaric. It certainly is brutal.

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## ChrisNG53

Just to round off my stance about the terrible irony of the whole saga.

1. We don't have *evidence* against Bin Laden ... not one scrap of evidence. What we have is *information* furnished by the media.

2. We do not *know* that Bin Laden was guilty of anything. What we have is *belief.* In my book I also make a clear distinction between _believing_ and _knowing_.

3. If the members of the Navy Seals, who executed the "hit", were tried by any court, in a constitutional democracy, the judge would be compelled to convict them or cold blooded, premeditated murder and sentence them to death, if that is the ultimate penalty in the particular country.

*Sobering I think* .. and as said it all starts with the Bin Ladens of this world who think that killing innocent human beings in order to make a political statement is acceptable. Whether we like it or not these swines are keeping us in the jungle of lawlessness and barbarism .. thats if it can be said we ever left that jungle. I would dispute that.

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## Blurock

Very good point Chris. Unfortunately you are contradicting yourself. Are you for or against the self proclaimed terrorist? There is enough evidence provided by Bin Laden himself. How can you not know that he is guilty of anything?

I agree that an eye for an eye is barbaric, but there comes a time when you have to protect the innocent. That is the time when you have to make a stand and realise that you sometimes have to be cruel to be kind. 

Everyone is entitled to a fair trial, but what is your stance on defending a known and self confessed murderer? Is it your duty to get him off on a technicality or by discrediting witnesses and evidence, or is it only to ensure a fair trial? What does your conscience lead you to do? Do you also consider the position of the innocents who were, or may still be harmed by this individual? :Batman:

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## ChrisNG53

*Blurock* -- there is absolutely no contradiction. 

I have said that personally I am glad the swine is dead and hope he burns in hell. So I approve.

But I am recognizing the "wrongness" in my/our stance. It violates a whole bunch of principles that we profess to hold sacred. 

As to "self confessed"; I can give you a real assurance that "confessions" often mean nothing. People will confess to anything for reasons as varied as human nature itself. 

So the bottom line is that we are all approving of the criminal execution of a human being against whom there is not a shred of evidence ... criminal because, as said, any judge would have to convict the killers of premeditated murder  ... of three human beings ... that is the reality ... which ever way you want to bake it!

... so we are indeed barbaric ..... or is it just brutal? ... certainly brutish!

As regards my stance on _"defending a known and self confessed murderer"._ I have already set out that there is a fundamental difference between *beleiving*  and _knowing_. We simply do not know that Bin Laden was guilty of anything, as much as we believe it. 
In terms of the standards we have set for ourselves we would only *know* that he was guilty after a fair trial in an open court on evidence. 

As an advocate I would defend  him to the very best of my ability. That is a fundamental human right that we all have.

Ask yourself this question? At what point are you going to draw a line in the sand and say when a human being can be executed out of hand or not? Is it when he "proclaims" himself to be a terrorist but there is no evidence that he has actually killed anybody? Is it when e the media links him to master minding one suicide bomber, or is it three, or 10? If O J Simpson now confesses to the murders do we have him knocked off in a hit since he cannot be tried again.?

We have set standards for all these things. We have just torn them all up.

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## wynn

So the alternative is they should have arrested him and taken him to the World Court in the Hague to stand trial.

We would ignore all the petty kidnappings and killings and attempts to trade for his freedom in the mean time.

Pop him off, bury him at sea and the whole thing is over bar the shouting and a few revenge attacks.

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## adrianh

So lets see, according to the fairy tale from the grand old US of A. They drop a bunch of navy seals into a foreign country who then raids a compound and shoots an unarmed man who is supposedly hiding behind his wife. They then load his body onto their helicopter, take some DNA and toss the body in the sea.

Oooooooooooooooookkkkkkkk, I think that if they were going to think u a bull twang story they should at least think up a story where they come out looking like heros. What absolute, unadulterated horse manure. I give America my official award for being a country whose goverment think that the whole world believes in their Hollywood Mickey Mouse dreamword.

What the media should have said is that the US goverment got Dreamworks to make a sequel to Lethal Weapon 4 using CGI.

Are we so blind that we believe all the rubbish that the US media spews at us - come on....Osama Bin Ladin aka The Tooth Fairy / Tron and many other CGI characters.

For once I agree with ChrisNG & Murdock, we are a bunch of savages who arbitrarily decide what is right and what is wrong. Chris says that they had no right to do what they supposedly did - I agree, and Murdock said that one mans terrorist is another mans Nobel Peace Prize winner - and I agree with this too.

What a load of rubbish, I think that Americans must be the stupidest bunch of people in the world if they believe all the rubbish that there government spews.

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## Justloadit

> No, it wasn't the action itself that got to me as "primitive" or "barbaric," it was the celebration in what I saw as a very sombre moment.


What I find interesting was that during 9/11, there were a number of Muslims who also danced in the street when the towers fell. I can not recollect if there were any comments about this.

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## Dave A

> What I find interesting was that during 9/11, there were a number of Muslims who also danced in the street when the towers fell.


Agreed - that's no better either.

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## murdock

> Agreed - that's no better either.




they should have the dancing on camera...hunt them down and pop them as well...why not while they are on a roll...i wonder if obama will ever get charged with war crimes?....i doubt it....

imagine that the muslins capturing obama and taking him to task for all the bad things the CIA...FBI...ACS...DEA...ERG...LKM...etc...get up to...in the name of peace...war against terorism...call it what you want i thought the un was suppose to be the law enforces...but clearly the americans feel because they are the power house in the world they can take the law into their own hands...if they kill a pile of civilians...its called casualties of war...i love it...i wish we could could wage a war on crimminals in this country write off all the casualties to the war on crimminls...

would it be any worse than what the americans have just done to bin laden? i dont think so...as i have mentioned in the past our crime stats can only be compared to war torn countries....eeeish makes you think doesnt it...and some of the inhuman acts i have heard people mention of what these crimminlas do to some of the women they encounter during their crimminla acts....are hectic...one come to mind taking a hot piece of steel and penertrating the women until they die...burning them with irons etc...i think the "reported" are something like ever 20 seconds...but i suppose we live in a 3 rd world country you can expect this type of behavior.

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## flaker

And there were hundreds of muslims that died on 09/11

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## Butch Hannan

Bin Laden was killed quickly and efficiently and for that I applaud the Americans. Just think of the many people who were held as captives of this organization only to have a video made of their heads being chopped off.
I am sure that many of the individuals who were victims of Osama Bin Laden would have preferred him to have been killed very slowly over a long time!!

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