# Social Category > General Chat Forum >  Banks.

## tec0

Are banks really your best friend? When it comes to property we all know it is expensive and basically impossible to own because you donât have the cash.  These days the same can be said about cars but I am not going into that just yet. 

Here is my problem, when a bank gives you a home loan there investment will grow and basically double their money. Now have a good look at your investments at the bank it doesnât double and you pay tax on your investment so you lose. 

The question now is why is property so expensive? I cannot answer that question just yet but take in consideration that all property âdevelopments, sale, resale and anything to do with property gets processed by the banks thus property gets expensive because there is only one real benefactor âthe bankâ 

Sadly the same is true with cars. Especially cars that is still relativity new. One car a simple R56000 car can have up to 4 owners but in the end of its life the bank would have owned it at least 4 times. So again the bank is the only benefactor. 

My question is when it comes to owning property, is it possible to keep the bank out of the loop? The answer is no... âI stand to be corrected on thisâ but as I see it the bank is part of everything you do and anything you do at the bank cost you money so basically the bank cannot lose. Only we can lose... why is that? âNow before you give me the âthat is how it isâ lectureâ think about this, if every South African gives the bank R1 everyday of our lives how can there be a recession?

The money is there but we are not benefitting from it.   :Banghead:

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## sgafc

Excellent post TEC0! This forum is full of people who are suspicious about banks, and  they have all the right to be... Banks are at the centre of the worlds financial problems. True, we cannot always blame banks and it is time we take responsibility for our own finances. Its at the "taking responsibility" level where I am ridiculed for being "paranoid".

But lets face it. Banks are actually behind inflation. The constant increase in bank charges/ costs(not only interest), forces businesses to find the money elsewhere(price increases).

And you right, banks are manipulating the property market, making it next to impossible for newly wed couples, to find a home.They profit greatly out of the housing market(and other types of financing).

The charges extracted from the populace and business, borders on the immoral. Take your bond, vehicle repayments+ interest+ admin fees+ charges *plus* bank charges on business and personal accounts, credit cards etc,and the 400% increases, then it becomes clear to all and sundry, that we actually slaves to the banks!

And money is in abundance, just not equally spread. 90% of the world wealth in the hands of 1% of the population, and 10% in the rest! :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## twinscythe12332

far from the original "hey, could you keep this for me please" that originally happened with blacksmiths, that's for sure.

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## Dave A

Great topic! Banks seem to be an unavoidable service nowadays.

Interest charges (or discounts for those banks who don't use the interest model) is probably unavoidable as there needs to be some return for the people putting up the money. But supply and demand does a reasonable job of establishing that balance...



> True, we cannot always blame banks and it is time we take responsibility for our own finances. Its at the "taking responsibility" level where I am ridiculed for being "paranoid".


 :Thumbup:  Don't let that stop you, Sean. It's the only way I can see to shift the numbers.

Like Sean, I feel the abuse factor is in the charges. The introduction of an admin fee on credit agreements was pure opportunism (thank you government for opening that door with the NCA - as if the banks weren't creative enough with their fees already  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): ).

Perhaps the real problem when it comes to padded charges is not enough competition?

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## Marq

Bank = Necessary evil.

Besides BS charges and run around, heres another scenario - your personal data.

Every time I have phoned any bank where I have an account they ask 20 questions and do the run around to verify who you are. Now this week Standard bank 'froze' my business credit cards as they tell me there was a transaction that was not 'authorised'. The 'authorisation' is in the form of a call to my cell phone to see if its me that using the card. Eventually I discover that one of the digits on the cell number they have is incorrect and they  therefore did not verify the transaction. They did not bother to follow up and just left the situation hanging, waiting for a pissed off customer to phone in and query what is going on. Subsequently, after three calls to the bank this morning, I discover that my landline number is also incorrect as is my postal address. 

Their solution is for me to go into the bank and sort this out. My details have been the same for the past 10 years - they manage to send me a statement every month and I have called them and had to verify data many times.

How is it that Standard Bank after 10 years of being with them, suddenly have 'incorrect' data on their system?
How is it that this became my fault and my job to fix it?
How is that Standard Bank 'team leaders'/BS artists do not have an answer for this?
How is that these people believe that another phone call and endless questions on who you are and whether you farted this morning can give you a warm feeling that all is ok now?

Nedbank want to know even more information about you, your wife and kids on a blatant marketing update every time you call them, where they use fica as an excuse. Nedbank sells your to insurance companies and who knows who else for spam purposes; absa gave away confidential information to whoever asks; now standard bank has a dodgy database.

It should be us verifying our banks and their credentials everytime we speak to them - not the other way round.

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## tec0

Yes. This is a true scenario and a really big problem. Not too long ago I had to supply the bank with âprove of residenceâ However the one morning I had real trouble with my bank-account. They are clearly âunderstaffedâ and all that. But, if you want to start trouble just ask the person that is helping you to verify their certification so that âYOUâ the customer knows that the person that is helping you is indeed certified. âThe stories you get is beyond belief!â   :Wink:  

Secondly I find that some banks âThat I will not nameâ have real trouble with people that wants to do banking in their own language. Now the language thing is to avoid misinformation and misunderstandings to name but a few reasons. The sad thing is âYOUâ are the customer but it doesnât feel like it. You are treated like a criminal and you never have a good experience! EVER! 

Lastly about your phone numbers that is not correct. The bank IS able to see when that information was modified and by whom! Make no mistake the system is designed that way and if they cannot provide you with that information then you will probably have real trouble in the future.  :EEK!:  

My advice is âtake controlâ and give your bank HELL if there is something wrong.

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## tec0

I am not going to pretend that I understand the inner most sinister workings of a bank but I really do not understand inflation. And I cannot understand why inflation exists. All I do know is our buying power is really not that strong and since 1989 upwards our buying power diminished to what it is today. A R100 can buy you a pizza.

Now, my novice understanding of inflation is that it weakens our buying power thus we need to spend more money on the same products. If we used currency like gold or silver inflation cannot really exist because it is connected to the scarcity of gold and silver. So I ask you, what contributing factor allowed inflation to exist in the first place.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):  

Still before one points at the banks and there mechanics, note that ALL currency is the banks property to start with. So if the money is in the bank and it is the banks property it is stronger by default, because the bank urns larger amounts on their investments then what we can. 

The second scenario is the money itself and this bit I really, really donât get. Inflation eats away at our buying power so we need more âphysical moneyâ and because there is more physical money its value will go down thus we end up in a losing battle.  :Stick Out Tongue:  

Now if we look at the pointers: 

A>	Inflation (why does it exist)
B>	Home loans  (Never structured in our best interest)
C>	Personal Investments (Never earning as much as the bank does) 

Why do we need this system? I answer we need the security and ability to borrow money because it is impossible to own property otherwise. Knowing that the banks are behind the property mark-up they basically created the need for home-loans to start with so that they can profit from us??? Nice.  :Cool:

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## twinscythe12332

> A>	Inflation (why does it exist)


how else are they going to keep their funds flowing? When new money flows into the system, it isn't distributed amongst the people... it goes to the banks. This is the bank's power. 




> B> Home loans (Never structured in our best interest)


 When is anything structured in our best interest?




> C> Personal Investments (Never earning as much as the bank does)


 at the end of the day, where do you think the money for those personal investments is ending? You guessed it, in a bank.

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tec0 (14-Oct-09)

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## Frankincense

I work in one....please note....although Dave may not agree, and multitudes for sanity purposes should join him...one can talk about the fees, personal accountability for financial management, neccessary evils, part of life, not what it used to be, taking your own responsability (btw  - it's you who's being taken  :Shoot: ) ...blah blah blah.....

The bottom line is....there is a little book that talks about no "buying and selling without a mark" .....666....and when you start to investigate the trends in both banking and technology and thier inseperability...you will see what I see....given the prevailant attitude and habits of these institutions...

These are the Gods that control humanity and pay everyone else off to fullfill thiers needs. Governments...Media...Sports Sponsors...you name it... :Yawn:  

I know, I know.....here I go again.... :Crazy: 

By all means...carry on talking about banks with possibly other "noble" ideas...but you will more frequently hear about all system tracking and ease of transaction through electro chips..already on some master visa cards....it's gonna be force fed to you.....after the consent period is over....1st FICA, 2cnd RICA, 3rd EUREKA...game over!


What I love about prophecy is that no one can change it...they may scoff at it, and find ways to deal with it...but WHAT MUST BE MUST BE!

@TecO :"I am not going to pretend that I understand the inner most sinister workings of a bank but I really do not understand inflation. And I cannot understand why inflation exists."

It exists because  banks may create money outta thin air.  All I need is to retain 10% (in SA it's Basil I & II Capital Reserves what what)...and then the party starts


Here goes...all aboard???........I recieve R100 as deposit...I must keep 10% = R10 then I may now borrow to someone else R90...who in turn pops that R90 into their savings account with my bank again...now I have R100 + the R90 I borrowed as I fullfiled my BASIL requirement to keep 10% reserve.....so what was R100 has already become R1o0 initial deposit + R10 reserve + R90 redeposited which I am allowed to create outta nothing...

That is inflation 101  explained in simplistic terms...I make money outta nothin...and no one except God Himself will destroy this.....all becuase it's designed like this...oh...the R90 you reinvested with me...I'm gonna keep R9 and borrow the other...R81...and so on, and so on... :Drunk: 

...now work out if a couple of people invest a couple of million in the bank???

What you get is a hyperinflation controlled by money supply and a dash of fictitious calculated "reccessions" to create an idea,"things are bad".....it's PARTY TIME...AND IT'S becuase the ultimate objective is for 666...NOTHING ELSE....

Go ahead, study the increase in money supply over decades.., and that decreases it's value....that's why 10 years ago a bread cost R2 now it's R12...not because bread became more valueable, but because banks are allwoed to have a party in earth....and make a shit load a cash...from nothing....

Eish....I'm sorry... :Frown: 

Sleep well folks....

 :Censored: 

TETRAGRAMMATON RULES!!!!

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## Dave A

:Hmmm:  That puts the "security" of a ten percent reserve in a different light. At first blush that 10% would seem closer to 1% in reality. We're not missing something here? A consequence of the diminishing numbers in that sequence... 



> Go ahead, study the increase in money supply over decades.., and that decreases it's value....that's why 10 years ago a bread cost R2 now it's R12...not because bread became more valueable, but because banks are allwoed to have a party in earth....and make a shit load a cash...from nothing....


Actually they make the money out of the margin between what they pay out and what they reap in just like any other business. It's just their commodity is predominantly other people's money.  :Stick Out Tongue: 

Your point on inflation jogged another morsel or two lodged in my mind.

When did inflation start? And what triggered it?
I always thought it was the climb in the price of oil around 1970 that started the inflation monster - but given your point (the fact that inflation requires an oversupply of money), is that right? Was it really oil or was it, in fact, a change in money supply policy?

And then a thought related to Illuminati matters - the bond investor has one major enemy - inflation. Probably worth chewing on when considering what might be driving it all.

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## tec0

So basically when I apply for a home loan all my finances are being looked at and scrutinised, all my assets is then translated as âfinancial stabilityâ so if I canât pay I stand to lose it all. But the bank puts nothing up. Basically they just pay the current owner with thin air! Because the âmoneyâ was created when I applied for the loan! 

I am stupefied really... So when we work on low risk the banks work on no risk and they take money from us in the form of bank charges and interests on our loans not to mention inflation that is all basically created by them?    

This canât be... can it? When I look at my living cost it is said you lose 40 cents of every R1 on tax and its many faces. But now thanks to Eskom we are looking to lose even more because the actual COST will increase by a possible 43% So basically I as a person only urn about 20 cents of every R1 but the bank only have to keep 10% of my 20 cents as physical collateral thus I actually have less than that then comes all the charges and everything else. No wonder we are in a bloody recession! The system is self-defeating thus impossible to keep what you have!  :Banghead:  

Now if this system is indeed âdesignedâ to work that way then what the hell are we using banks for? Will it not be better to translate your wealth into something more physical like gold coins or even certified diamonds? But even then you stand to lose...

Slaves to the system just got a new meaning in my books. Or I am missing a few details...    :Confused:

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## sgafc

Thats why its better to be self employed. "You Earn Money Before You Pay Tax" An employee pays tax before they EARN it."

Self employed people also have substantial room to play around with to claim Vat back, and reduce taxes. Not for the employed person(no matter how much they earn)

But all of us remain victims of a wicked banking system... :Banghead:

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Frankincense (14-Oct-09)

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## Frankincense

"Actually they make the money out of the margin between what they pay out and what they reap in just like any other business. It's just their commodity is predominantly other people's money. "

No... :Nono: ...we take a little of others money, and may turn it into much more by borrowing it out and recieving it back again (FRACTIONAL RESERVE LENDING)...Basil I & II

This is not an ethical business, nor is there anything "normal" about it. Yes banks have outflows, but fractional reserve creation of funds really does cover the expences...lol..... :Stick Out Tongue:  [see inflation 101 in post #9 ]

Indeed  Sgafc:"... all of us remain victims of a wicked banking system..."

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## sgafc

What is inflation? Economics 1, defines it as too much money chasing too little goods and services.... :Banghead: really? 

I would say Too, many goods and services chasing money(that the banksters first created out of nothing, and sucked out of the system), now there is not enough money to pay for the goods and services.

I recall in the various "drought periods", 1984, 1991 and 1997, how the supermarkets were packed to capacity, and overflowing, with vegetables and fruit. I see business people every day, with an abundance of services and goods to sell, but there is NO market(read money) for their goods and services.
Whether you agree with me or not...something doesnt add up???

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## tec0

True, more shops are closing because of âlack of businessâ and not just âbad serviceâ as some may think. When one look at South Africa you will find that we are unique because jobs are controlled by industry and heavy industry. Commercial profits are based on industrial profits. The more work there is the more money there is... âThat kind of scenarioâ.

Now big companies donât improve the lives of the general population thus we see a picture of labour abuse, and few âtraining opportunitiesâ and I will not even mention the politics that is involved. How can we reach financial stability if there is no planning for development? Fact is in trying times the tax could have been more âlenientâ and more importantly the banks could have been more âresponsibleâ when it comes to ârepossessingâ things like cars, houses and that kind of thing. 

How can you possibly stand a chance to pay the bank back if they take your transport and basically by doing that you lose your ability to work and earn money...? Now I know you get lot people that want to take chances and take what they can get. But making everyone guilty by association is not helping the economy or the clients that IS actually trying to pay the bank its money... 

Banks must realise that âjob securityâ is a thing of the past...

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## Frankincense

Yeah, Bankers have always calculated who should remain employed and who shouldn't based on benefits....also for how long would a depression (mass unemployment) benefit them if sustained....If Bankers decide to drop a specific bank to it's knees, then shame, the staff are jobless....but at least they get to buy the bank and take it over at a song...this has been done so often....business as usual for bankers...human capital and job security are variables one plays with to maximise control and profit.... :No:

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## tec0

I think you might have misunderstood my post. What I was pointing at is the fact that some people do try and keep their payments up but despite their efforts the banks still decide “take” the property and sell it at a massif loss. Now once the property is sold at a loss the bank will still keep the person whose property was taken and sold liable for the “outstanding amount” So not only did the person lose their property they still owe the bank money.

Now let’s say that this piece of property is a car. Now with the car the person was still able to pay back “an amount of money” but without it, this person can no longer work thus “no money” for the bank and a los for both the bank and the person involved. 

Now if the bank acted responsibly and “negotiated” payments and allow the person to keep the car then that person would be able to work and pay them back. Thus the bank “don’t lose money” where as “flogging at auction” they only get 15% to 30% of its actual value. 

But in all honesty I don’t just blame the banks for our problems. Fact is if we had proper public transport most people will not need a car to get to and from work. I think our government can ease up on the car manufacturers and the car manufactures can drop their prices by 15% to 20% on “entry-level cars” Thus affordability becomes a reality once more.  :Confused:

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## Frankincense

On the contrary, totally understood your post. Just wanted to fast forward it a bit.... :Yes: 

"Now if the bank acted responsibly and ...blah blah blah"

Bankers have never been responsable. We should all by now be familiar with the History of Banking, and thus understand these basic realities in order to move on.

It's great to see people suggesting things they believe would make the world a better place, and what Bankers should do....but a Leopard never changes it's spots, until it's skinned.... :Devil2: 

"But in all honesty I donât just blame the banks for our problems."
I don't blame the Banks either, after all, they're just buildings filled with thousands of ant people doing what they're told....I blame the international Bankers who own the Banks, Car manufacturing firms, most of the developing World Governments from the IMF loans they issued, most of the Weapons manufacturers, Petroleum companies....and the list is endless...thier plans suck, but will be rolled out.

Can't wait to see this Leopard skinned alive!
 :Shoot:

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## tec0

Well then maybe it is time to see we can work around banks. Impossible right... wrong, see before investments groups like Old-Mutual the banks was the only way to invest money. But with investment groups like Old-Mutual banks had competition but not for long because these investment groups are now basically just an extension of the banks. 

However it was possible for groups like Old-Mutual to form and actually be competitive... Thus this shows you that it is possible to create your own investment group that can act as a âprivateâ banking system. This âinvestment groupâ can then grow stronger because by negotiations you can manipulate other small companies to join the group and then benefit from a guaranteed clientele. In return they invest in the âgroupâ and make use of their services. 

It will take some doing and a hell of a lot of money but it is not impossible and best of all your wealth is yours again... Cut the bank out of the loop and they will crash. Just a bit of useless info have a look at how *Netbank* was formed...

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## sgafc

Turning to investing with banks... Saving, be it investments such as Fixed Deposits, call accounts/32day Notice Accounts, used to be encouraged by myself. But I see many clients complaining about their returns/interest.

Remember the yardstick we all used for the sustainabilty of investing/opening a business, ie_" If the profits are less than the interest rate yield of a bank, I will rather invest my money with a bank"._ Guess what, despite the recession many(apart from the struggling ones)businesses returns today, are higher than the returns of bank accounts.

32day Accounts, yield low returns. Saving accounts, interest on credit balances have evaporated, and in some cases can be as low as 1c.Ever calculated the "charges" and admin fees on banks investment products? Ever lost sums in an investment account, due to the bank transferring it to another overdrawn account, held at the same bank.(without your consent)

1. All banks provide bad service, in return for high bank charges.
2. In todays climate, they rarely finance business, provide loans, and if they do interest and charges are excessive.
3. They cannot pay us a decent return on our investments.

Face it, bank accounts is just a convenient conduit, for our salaries, income and expenses. Thats what we should use banks for.

For financing and investing,other alternatives needs to be explored urgently.

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Dave A (19-Oct-09)

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## tec0

Well I always thought that if you look at the total income of a bank on any given day that, that amount would suffice. Not so? Take into perspective that the bank is taking R1 from every client at any given transaction. Now that is a lot of money on its own, but I am sure that the bank invests that money in hopes to make more... 

If the banks say they have to pay their "staff" it is a lie. Go into any bank and you will find that they are operating on half the staff or there is simply not enough staff to process the clients or their needs. 

Now underperforming investments, is it just a bad investment or is the bank that is just taking too much in the from of charges? Considering the money that IS being generated trough there âease of accessâ why canât investments be more rewarding... 

Fact is all of us must look at investments in the form of life-cover, insurance and the most important of all funds; the retirement funds. We all need these âinvestmentsâ but the banks are taking from these âinvestmentsâ in the name of âservicesâ but again what service? 

Now the second problem is âindependentâ investment groups, we are all scared of them because they might be a âhere today but gone tomorrow scenarioâ so do we use banks because of low risk or do we use banks for âease of accessâ. Face it we are paying for the âlowâ risk factor...  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## Frankincense

...Banks are there to facilitate all your "buying and selling"...or in modern terms "transactions"....

...Investment Houses (although Banks offer this too)...are for Investing

... you need a bank account to do the transfer to the investment account anyways...

so.... :Slap: 

..odd how some think you can have the one without the other, isn't it...some may call that folly in this time..... :Rockon: 

"Well then maybe it is time to see we can work around banks. Impossible right... wrong"

*No man* shall work around a bank in order to obtain money through investment wealth, as the very lubricant to keep the debits & credits of all investments are Transactional Bank founded...sorry guys.... :No: 

666 time.... :Console: 

As mentioned - Total Tetragrammaton exile is all that will do, and that certainly does not include generating vasts amount of investment wealth by attempting to bypass the facilitator... :Yes:

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## tec0

So in the end we are dependant of banks... Still, consider that SARS can now basically access your bank and do checks and stuff to make sure you paid âTHEMâ a lot of people ânot necessary dishonest peopleâ are looking at other ways to do business on a âcash onlyâ bases to avoid bank charges âmostlyâ also I know that âcertified legal diamondsâ is a popular investment choice. 

In the end we must also consider âsystem abuseâ by those who have access to your funds. IT is scary to know that someone you donât know âCANâ view your bank details....  :Confused:

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## wynn

And never get them to draw up, execute and administer your will for you.
They are only interested in what you may owe them and how much commission they can earn from administering your estate, if you die they will see that they get their money first then they worry about your widow and kids.
They will be quite happy to lend your widow your money and charge her interest on it for the short term, but only if they see that their is plenty to go around.
If you leave a rather large estate, they will administer it to the hilt before winding it all up.

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## Dave A

My basic strategy is to have the bank attend to my banking and asset financing needs - and all the other stuff goes elsewhere.

It doesn't stop them from trying to upsell me fairly reguarly, but all it takes is a clear "no thanks."

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Frankincense (21-Oct-09)

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## tec0

The problem is when you look at banks in general, they want you to think they are âreasonableâ and if you look at the advertisements on television the image they are selling shows smiling happy faces and all is well with the world.  :Banghead: 

In all, I want to unmask the âhappy smiley faceâ and show all, who and what banks really are. They are mechanical in nature and have a calculator for a soul. See the point of this exercise is I want people to question why it is that banks get almost âdoubleâ their money back with home loans and all that, I want people to ask why must I buy a new car if the bank is owning it in the end of the day. 

I want to see people planning their budgets without overdrafts, credit-cards and personal loans. See to invest in your own financial future is to plain around structures and find new ways to invest in sound solutions other then banks...  :Cool: 

Banks will only treat us with respect and fairness if we show them that we can work around them otherwise you will get what you get now: Bad service, poor investment growth, impossible to pay back home loans and massif banking feesâ    :Drunk:

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## daveob

> the advertisements on television the image they are selling shows smiling happy faces and all is well with the world.


Lately I have noticed all the alcohol advertising on TV is showing happy, smiling alert people enjoying the product - this is SO unrealistic - where's the droopy eyes, slurred speech, 'him' all over 'her' like a bulldog drooling over the porridge, the cheap pickup lines, and a host of other effects of the product ?

I suppose they're selling the desire for happiness, not truth - just like the bank ads.

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Dave A (22-Oct-09)

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## tec0

Yes, advertisements don’t get me started on that! You know the one where with “the helicopter” rescue and then they flash faces of children and then “the flat-line” I hate that damn advert! It is worse than black mail because “your children will die if you don’t use them!!!!!!!!!” IT just pisses off so badly because it is NOT dealing with reality it is benefiting from a crippled health care system. It is disgusting and wrong. I am actually considering seeing a psychiatrist because I freak out when I see that advertisement. I just can’t handle it!  :Mad:   :Mad:   :Mad: 

Also as for banks why not show and advertisement of mom and dad being kicked out of their homes and their cars being taken and families being torn apart!  :Banghead:

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## Dave A

> Yes, advertisements donât get me started on that! You know the one where with âthe helicopterâ rescue and then they flash faces of children and then âthe flat-lineâ I hate that damn advert! It is worse than black mail because âyour children will die if you donât use them!!!!!!!!!â


Because selling on people's fears work



> Also as for banks why not show and advertisement of mom and dad being kicked out of their homes and their cars being taken and families being torn apart!


Except it's not a good idea in this case.

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## tec0

Eventually people will wise up and banks will have to reconsider their attitude towards their customers. The tables will turn jobs will be crated and the economy will stabilise âhopefully before the end of the word on 2012â What then? Will you still want to use a bank that have blacklisted thousands of people? Will you still use a bank that took your home or car? NO...  

Truth is, Banks did indeed damage their own image and hopefully they will pay the price. Still with Eskomâs evil plans to push the power price up by 45% may hinder critical industrial growth and then there is the question of our agricultural stability and ability to sustain... Land value is at a premium and yet our farmers are fighting a losing battle with both governments and banks. 

Ask yourself this important question: Why is there no plans of a massif water treatment facility to purify enough sea water for agricultural use?  We see the government actively âreallocating farming recourses but they are doing little for sustainability. 

As for the banks, how is this effecting cash-flow, when it is impossible to finance farmland privately?  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## tec0

In all we have determined that banks are pushing for dominance when it comes to owning property or land. So basically it has been happing for the last few years. Land and house repossession is commonplace and there is little to nothing we can do about it.  :Confused: 

So in the end âIf the farmerâ is owned by the bank and hindered by financial strain then they can no longer produce product. Thus IMPORTS becomes the norm. These IMPORTS are directly connected to investments and investments are connected to banks. Thus the poorer the people get the richer and more powerful banks will become.  :Confused: 

Again it is left to âconspiracyâ but I am thinking that in the next 5 to 10 years Food and water will the investment of choice. People need water. People need food... Are banks responsible for our poor agriculture at this point in time? No, there are more contributing factors that must be looked at. Still we cannot ignore the warning signs. âFood importsâ versus âFood exportsâ   :Confused:

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## Dave A

I'd like to suggest in this day and age the intent isn't to make you a slave to the system. What you describe is the poverty trap.

It's a recognised problem that isn't being ignored. It's why there are massive EU donor funds going into Africa.

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## tec0

Is the funding reaching the people? The poverty trap is showing its effects. When one looks at the needs of a modern farm you will find that the equipment alone is a small fortune then the land itself will set you back even more. Fact is, it is impossible to start farming without the bankâs support and more importantly without debt... As for the funding, if you consider the massive amounts of money that is already âinvestedâ in Africa it looks like a bottomless pit because you donât see any improvements or long term planning...

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## Dave A

> Is the funding reaching the people?


That would be the corruption trap. Also a known problem, except no-one seems to know the solution to that one.  :Stick Out Tongue:

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## tec0

Ah, yes the corruption web is bit more like a black-widow sucking out all goodness of international funding. How does one get rid of such an ugly spider? Well you start with the nest... and you work your way up to the spider because taking down the spider is just half the battle. If the nest is still there you can expect a few more black- widow spiders in the near future.

Well to find the spider all you need to do is look for the web. So basically all you need to do with corruption is follow the money. It is relatively simple because you are staring at a country that has nothing, so those who have something more than the norm most probably warrants investigation. Then the oppressors always have guns... Guns donât grow on a tree, so where do these people get there big bad broomsticks from?

There indicators that can point you into the right direction. However corruption has many faces some of them more hidden then others. So perhaps the âsystemâ needs to change and better control over who gets what exactly... 

I am sure that corruption can be eliminated but before that can happen the âsystemâ must change and be more proactive perhaps?

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## tec0

With everything getting more expensive âespecially with the coming power increaseâ I can only wonder if the banks will âupâ there charges? I know that some heavy industries are already looking at cost and is wondering if âmanufacturing else wareâ may be a better solution. In short we will see a lot of ârisingâ costs and that is not good for the economy...

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## Frankincense

...it's the only way to thin the populations out..... :Rofl:

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## Frankincense

...seriously...... :Rofl:

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## Frankincense

......oh how i wish i had good tidings...but alas....it seems we have a septic tank to swim through...for our BSC's.....lol....."Corporately speaking"........eish ...anywho.....keep complainin about "rising costs"...until it's once again, as always, counted in bodies!!!...WHAT???.......ok .....skip that part...so how's the weather?...Personally I like the cloud covered skies....the weather man and meteoroligist and climatologist and all the remaining ologists have it wrong...this week alone...rain predicted for KZN, 60% Monday and 30% Tuesday...but NOTHING, NADA... I Superbike it on my R1 to work and back under a terrible and dreadfull gloomy (aptly) cloud cover, never meeting rain.....aaaaahhhhhh...Lord knows...the weather is GOOD!!!.....sure to meet some drizzle for shizzle closer to the weekend though my nizzle...surley??....paying all these taxes for decent weather predictions...lol....

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