# Social Category > General Chat Forum >  Violence in our schools

## Citizen X

The Glenvista High incident is just one of many involving children in schools in South Africa today…


I thought of this from a completely different perspective. The perspective that a child is now subject to a different legislation which has been in force since 1 April 2010 namely the Child Justice Act 75 of 2008.

The brainchild to prevent a child from the harsh exposure to the criminal justice system and if the child accepts responsibility a prosecutor may now implement a diversion option which in terms of the act is a diversion of a matter involving a child away from the formal court procedures in a criminal matter. The child has to be assessed by a probation officer who should be a social worker to report on the child’s age, education, circumstances. This report must be handed to a prosecutor with the idea that a child should not go to prison but can be dealt with in our legal justice system in a different manner with the purpose of reintergrating these children back into society. The child’s parent is paramount in all these decisions. There are many diversion options and they include: this is for a schedule one offence such as common assault:Oral or written apology, Formal caution with or without conditions,Placement under supervision and guidance order; reporting order; compulsory school attendance order; family time order; peer association order; good behaviour order; an order prohibiting the child from visiting, frequenting or appearing in specified places;Referral to counselling or therapy;Compulsory attendance of vocational, educational or therapeutic programmes;Symbolic restitution;Restitution of a specific object;Community service; Provision of some service or benefit by the child to the victim; orPayment of compensation.


The issue for me is that we live in a very violent society, many of our strikes are violent and these strikers have children and a community from which they come. So if kids are happening to watch tv and see their very own parents engaged in violent strikes, that proportion of kids are likely to behave similiarly when dealing with issues. The community has crime and other socio-economic issues. These children will therefore be a product of this community and you should expect them to behave in such violent and irrational behaviour. I therefore respect that a child is prosecuted differently to an adult.


Assault: Regardless of whether a child assaults a teacher or a teacher assaults a child the offence remains assault for both the teacher and child. The only difference is that the child is criminally processed and dealt with differently from adults. So if assault and the grammar of violence are so prevalent in our very society with armed criminals engaging in sorts and manners of crimes in a poverty stricken environment where kids don’t have decent facilities geared at a kid’s welfare, you bound to have violence

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tec0 (08-Oct-13)

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## tec0

I think we are going to see a lot more violence/abuse before action will be taken I am sorry to say.

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## adrianh

What school kids need is this: 

*a good snot klap*

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## sterne.law@gmail.com

Unfortunately the issue of human rights sometimes loses focus.
Yes, children have the right to education, yes kicking them out of school would be counter productive, but we can't have people doing what they want.
It's a tricky balancing act, but quality education is the absolute key.

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## Dave S

> = ...but quality education is the absolute key.


...and parents that actually do give a damn...

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## Citizen X

There’s yet another way to see this: The criminal whomsoever he or she may be has other roles to play in society such as father, mother, brother, sister, son, daughter etc. As such the criminals children will also see what their parents are engaging in and tragically in many cases they pick up certain qualities.

If you move away from the ‘strikers,’ scenario, then we also have communities riddled with drug abuse and all the ills that may come of it.
The kids in these neighbourhoods such as the Cape Flats pick up on this ethos of gangsterism, drug dealing and use and the list goes on. They do have schools, a proportion of these parents(the drug lords and users) will take this behavior right into their very own classroom. This places the teacher and the rest of the students in a predicament. 

The grammar of violence, possible drug use, possible domestic violence prevalence, possible heated custody battles and poverty will manifest in our schools. It just has to unless the root of these problems are properly addresses.
The Child Justice Act takes into consideration that every child offender comes from a community and has different circumstances. So though what that child done was wrong, it was assault, he will be dealt with under a different legislation.

To compound matters, you have some teachers who are pedophiles and abuse children. This element of an adult criminal can’t also be ignored

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## adrianh

The country lacks discipline. The lack of discipline filters down from the very top of government right through to the schools. Monkey see monkey do!

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## KimH

Agree with Adrianh on both points.

Lack of discipline leads to moral decay - ultimately people need rules, without them they are just lost.
There's way too much molly coddling and far too little consequence these days.

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## adrianh

Remember the kid that sets the young lady teacher's hair on fire in Cape Town. When I was at school you knew very well not to do anything like that because your a$$ would burn for a long time. We used to get anything from 1 to 6 canings on our a$$es for doing badly in tests let alone assaulting a teacher.

They need to bring back corporal punishment in schools and the police should also hand out good hidings in public. 

I'm all for good hidings giving in public on a Saturday afternoon so that everybody gets to see that punishment is swift and harsh. No more time wasted in counts and full jails, just give them a good hiding and send them on their way!

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## Citizen X

> Remember the kid that sets the young lady teacher's hair on fire in Cape Town. When I was at school you knew very well not to do anything like that because your a$$ would burn for a long time. We used to get anything from 1 to 6 canings on our a$$es for doing badly in tests let alone assaulting a teacher.
> 
> They need to bring back corporal punishment in schools and the police should also hand out good hidings in public. 
> 
> I'm all for good hidings giving in public on a Saturday afternoon so that everybody gets to see that punishment is swift and harsh. No more time wasted in counts and full jails, just give them a good hiding and send them on their way!


Here’s the thing we’ve got laws in place and a criminal justice system that functions to a greater or lesser extent. 

The offence is in question, regardless of where it took place and by whom it was inflicted upon, is common assault. So the child in question will attend a preliminary hearing where a diversion option can be recommended. The child will just be tried under different conditions from an adult. A teacher too, as the media shows can also be an assailant who assaults a child either physically or sexually. 

_We’ve seen Professors been fired for allegations of rape and sexual assault and sexual harassment. 
_
There are laws in place. The issue of corporal punishment was already dealt with by the constitutional court in a case which involved a bunch of Christian Schools who brought an application stating that if they collectively consent to the corporal punishment of their very own children in a selected number of schools and the schools endorse the principle, corporal punishment should be allowed. The application failed dismally in the constitutional court. The CC is always guided by the constitution itself and in particular fundamental rights. The child’s right to safety and security, right to a safe environment, right to dignity and respect, right not to be subjected to inhumane or degrading punishment trumped the Christian organisation’s right to collectively consent to corporal punishment which is in actual fact assault.

I wouldn’t have a clue as to how the school itself as an organization with a principal and parents governing body could sanction the assault of their children and more specifically a bunch of other children who don’t share the same ethos.
This is a tricky one.

 This child in the Glenvista high saga wherever he may be right now, he is regretting what he’s done and now just wants normality and stability to come to his teenage life. The courts recognize this. The pivotal issue is whether the child freely and voluntary before a prosecutor acknowledges responsibility and the his parent’s consent to a diversion program such as vocation school and therapy , the court can then immediately dispense with the matter and have it diverted.

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## sterne.law@gmail.com

Im not sue he is regretting or is remorseful, and that is the key.

We need to move away from blaming and excuses, people need to be responsible.

Children are far more advanced,  children reach adulthood earlier, the age of responsibiltiy should be lowered. And perhaps parents should b ehedl vicariously liable.
I respect the law and human rights, but there must be a balance. I would rather sacrifice ten people to save 100. Life is not fair.

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## Citizen X

If it comes to sanction for transgression what would be the appropriate sentence, notwithstanding that there is currently sentences for these crimes, one needs to go back to Ancient Rome, some 2500 ago; and we simultaneously consider that Ancient Roman Law is the architect of our common law, though we’ve had many changes and we continue to develop the common law, their forms of punishments included:

 Beheading ,Strangling in prison , Throwing a criminal from that part of the prison called Robur and placing him in a worse prison, Throwing a criminal from the Tarpeian rock(it wasn’t always at this rock, sometimes they threw you from a cliff or from whatever height was necessary to kill you,Crucifixion (in crucem actio) , Burying a person alive, *Throwing a criminal into the river( this one explains itself, the authorities simply throw the criminal in the river[Ancient Rome).
*
_Last but not least_, they had lashing on the back with a sturdy leather whip meant to inflict as much grievous bodily harm as an abled man’s hand could inflict. For assault 12 whips was in order.
So if you could resort to this ancient and ineffective means of punishment or do you see that both parties:teachers as a group and school children as a group have current and on-going challenges
You may carry out assault in self- defence provided that certain requirements are met.

_My question:
_
Since reality tv is such a big thing in this world why not encourage a few people to consent to a whipping for scientific purposes i.e. you just want to see how it is for someone to really get whipped that way by an able bodied man with a lethal whip. Will say maybe 5 whips do for a school child? You may then get a teacher with a boxing, gymning buzz and he then without reason gives the child a few smacks and punches. Or even a full on body assault and pour’s his wrath against that child as if he were in a fighting cage. Will this be suitable. 

_I think_ the better approach is that we do recognise that there are separate laws for criminal matters pertaining to children, that corporal punishment is unconstitutional and common assault is also a criminal offence punishable by the State. This one crime applies equally to all, no one may assault another[yes, in our society this takes place hourly], a teacher may not assault a student and a student should not assault a teacher..and the same applies to all other citizens. The obvious exceptions are taken as a given such as self-defence.

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## Justloadit

SO what punishment do you recommend for a kid who assaults a teacher?

Remembering that the punishment is not only for the perpetrator, but is also to discourage others to not commit.

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## Citizen X

> SO what punishment do you recommend for a kid who assaults a teacher?
> 
> Remembering that the punishment is not only for the perpetrator, but is also to discourage others to not commit.


Ill answer it in a round a bout manner i.e. answer your question last:-

At present corporal punishment is unlawfully and actually declared unconstitutional in a case championed by a group of Christian schools.

Suppose we say that a certain punishment for your kid should be allowed will you allow this?
*Teacher(Background: Sports, fitness, with a little drinking problem[one in a millon!)* He decided that his standard punishment if you get an answer wrong is that he slaps you once with all his might; for an offense of being rowdy in class he may slap you a few times, if necessary punch you about 3 times and if need be also kick you.

Would you allow this teacher the custody of teaching and disciplining your child?

Man remain a product of his very own society from which he comes. This applies equally to teachers and school children, they live in a crime riddled country where crime is of a serious and forceable nature. They have a host of socio economic issue: where to begin We also in the continuing process of living to genuinely live in a multi-racial society.

For me its even simpler: If daddy is a criminal involves in atm bombings there must be some small chance that this affects the behavior of that individual school child. Many school kids get to see mummy and daddy violently striking on television, many get to see a kangaroo court with mob justice. The general problem in most South Africa provinces is alcohol and drug abuse, poverty, crime and poor service delivery.

What would I see as a fit punishment for this kid?
1. The school must have its own disciplinary code which they reportedly implemented by either threatening to expel this kid or in actual fact doing so, both would be appropriate from the schools perspective;

2. The law: He committed assault but is a minor to whom the State owes a great responsibility. The court has to process his case in terms of the Child Justice Act so based on the fact that its a schedule one offence(not murder, armed robbery or rape), he can get a fine or compulsory attendance to vocational school. The idea is to prevent child offenders to the harsh exposure of the criminal justice system as we now know it. 
What happens afterwards? This is my real question. The child is young, he made a mistake, he probably regrets it, he doesnt like been on the news, hes been expelled and arguably the court does sentence him to something, where does he go from there? This is what the Child Justice Act needs to do in practice. There needs to be a reintergration of the child offender into his family and community, he/she needs to accept responsibility and depending on what the court orders which can include a written apology as well.
This child still has a long live ahead of him if he plays his cards right notwithstanding what he did. He cant undo his offence. Why should this be the end of his life?

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tec0 (11-Oct-13)

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## tec0

Back in the day sickly kids like myself normally had a hard time. But I decided I will not be a punishing bag. So I got in trouble for hitting back. Later on a gang took me on 3 against 1 and I won... Shortly after that I got into my first knife fight then faced my first attacker armed with a gun. {note I was always unarmed}

Funny thing is I never faced just one person always a gang always armed. This was back in my day “with discipline still fully active”. So don’t give me “kids of today have no discipline crap”. 

Schools are breading grounds for bullies and bad people. This is fact! So yes government is responsible for that child’s death. They didn’t take enough action to protect children and the truth is “in the old days” the same story applies. 

So it is not “just the government from today!” The government of the old days was just as crappy to protect the children. 

The first thing I learned was it doesn’t matter if the dude is big and muscular. His bones are bones organs are organs. I don’t care if they are “trained to resist pain” all of them scream eventually... I had to learn how to take on 3 attackers at a time this back in the day before video games. the worst attack I faced was 13 against my brother and myself. 

So you can bring your snot klap and see how that works. Because it doesn't it never AS IN NEVER worked not then not now. What you need is safe schools. 

Security is the answer here.

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## adrianh

tec0 - Did you do national service?

You'll be surprised exactly how effective a snot klap is!

The principal of the primary school which my youngest daughter still attends put it succinctly in a speech one evening. He said that the problem with schooling to day is that there is too much democracy in the classroom... and I fully agree with him.

Too much freedom is sometimes a lot worse than too little freedom!

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## tec0

> tec0 - Did you do national service?
> 
> You'll be surprised exactly how effective a snot klap is!
> 
> The principal of the primary school which my youngest daughter still attends put it succinctly in a speech one evening. He said that the problem with schooling to day is that there is too much democracy in the classroom... and I fully agree with him.
> 
> Too much freedom is sometimes a lot worse than too little freedom!


It is not about that... No school could control me, no person with rank scared me. I respected my dad because he is a respectable person. I respected my mom because she is a respectable person. Both gave me the gift of Honour and integrity.  

I defended people then I still do today. Do you honestly think a snot klap will do anything? A teacher tried that with me... guess what? My brother took him down because we dont tolerate it. I was still a bit young then. 

Do you know why I got the snot klap? Because they accused me of theft and I didnt accept the blame because I was innocent. 

Here are the facts... If bullies see security and see that they take action and see that they end up expelled or the police gets involved then they will back down because they have too.  This is not about freedoms...  I dont know where you get the stuff.  

This is about a failed system.

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## Citizen X

> tec0 - Did you do national service?
> 
> You'll be surprised exactly how effective a snot klap is!
> 
> The principal of the primary school which my youngest daughter still attends put it succinctly in a speech one evening. He said that the problem with schooling to day is that there is too much democracy in the classroom... and I fully agree with him.
> 
> Too much freedom is sometimes a lot worse than too little freedom!


Not to make light of what is otherwise a harrowing unfolding of violence in schools around the globe as well as in our country but suppose you had a one in a million teacher who feels needs to carry a knife on his person for his personal protection. 
This is necessary for going to and from work the school and protecting himself ensuring class. A naughty kid, let’s call him that, is rowdy and disruptive as his daddy is the neighbourhood drug lord. 

An argument takes place between our teacher here and our school kid, so the teacher sees it fit to inflict corporal punishment with his knife. He does ensure that he stabs only once, once he’s stabbed you and you’ve settled down in class and the class can now continue, he will no longer stab you!!

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## adrianh

@Vanash - yes, and I could also be hit with a meteorite whilst lying in bed.

I will say it again, this country lacks discipline. Corporal punishment is a very effective way to punish people. Too much democracy and freedom is not a good thing, just look at the state of this country... 

The reason corporal punishment was stopped in this country was not because it does not work, it was because the people doing the punishing had the same level of intelligence as Jacob Zuma i.e. That of an eggplant. It would be the same as saying that cops should no longer lock people up for drunken driving because a small minority of the cops that lock people up abuse those people. This country is very good at treating the wrong part of the problem, if 1 out of 1000 teachers go overboard with corporal punishment then deal with those teachers, don't ban the punishment. It is like saying because my one daughter came home late one night neither of my daughters may go out ever again. One should deal with the specific person and the specific event rather than just making blanket rules for everybody based on the fact that a small number of individuals are unable to conrol themselves.

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## Citizen X

> @Vanash - yes, and I could also be hit with a meteorite whilst lying in bed.
> 
> I will say it again, this country lacks discipline. Corporal punishment is a very effective way to punish people. Too much democracy and freedom is not a good thing, just look at the state of this country... 
> 
> The reason corporal punishment was stopped in this country was not because it does not work, it was because the people doing the punishing had the same level of intelligence as Jacob Zuma i.e. That of an eggplant. It would be the same as saying that cops should no longer lock people up for drunken driving because a small minority of the cops that lock people up abuse those people. This country is very good at treating the wrong part of the problem, if 1 out of 1000 teachers go overboard with corporal punishment then deal with those teachers, don't ban the punishment. It is like saying because my one daughter came home late one night neither of my daughters may go out ever again. One should deal with the specific person and the specific event rather than just making blanket rules for everybody based on the fact that a small number of individuals are unable to conrol themselves.


@Adrian, ironically enough you demonstrating the same assertiveness that Christian Education South, as representatives of a group of Christian schools, who endorsed and wanted corporal punishment took the matter all the way to the Constitutional Court v Minister of education.

The bone of contention is that they were unhappy with section 10(1) of the Schools Act 84 of 1996 which is a peremptory provision which states: “No person may administer corporal punishment at a school to a
Learner.” Their main argument was that a basic tenet of Christianity is that parents and all in parental authority should punish their children.

_The Constitutional court completely rejected their argument_. The applicant’s Christian Education South Africa depended on natural law to argue their case. The Constitutional Court looked at the legislation in place which is the Schools Act 84 of 1996 and found it to be completely constitutional. So this is where we at historically and legally in South Africa. Any teacher who assaults a school child will be criminally prosecuted. The same applies to a school child, if he/she commits common assault they will be charged but tried under the Child Justice Act.

So again, the kid committed common assault. This was wrong in the sense that it’s unlawful but also disrespectful. This doesn’t mean that he should receive a life sentence or subjection to a Roman style 12 lashes whipping. Imagine if in this whipping they said that they’d offer you an offer to provide 4 of the 12 lashes, would you give the school child an effective whipping? The whip must slice the flesh

[one in a million:the perfect teacher: Specs: BA in education, honours in education and masters in education. He’s a great maths teacher, won many accolades but he’s also a paedophile. So, in his mind he doesn’t want to physically punish your child, he feels that should your child go out of hand, he’ll simply sexually molest or assault them. One looks that the media coverage of such incidents and you really ask yourself :what’s happening?? Would you allow the possibility and circumstantial environment to allow this?

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## tec0

> @Vanash - yes, and I could also be hit with a meteorite whilst lying in bed.
> 
> I will say it again, this country lacks discipline. Corporal punishment is a very effective way to punish people. Too much democracy and freedom is not a good thing, just look at the state of this country... 
> 
> The reason corporal punishment was stopped in this country was not because it does not work, it was because the people doing the punishing had the same level of intelligence as Jacob Zuma i.e. That of an eggplant. It would be the same as saying that cops should no longer lock people up for drunken driving because a small minority of the cops that lock people up abuse those people. This country is very good at treating the wrong part of the problem, if 1 out of 1000 teachers go overboard with corporal punishment then deal with those teachers, don't ban the punishment. It is like saying because my one daughter came home late one night neither of my daughters may go out ever again. One should deal with the specific person and the specific event rather than just making blanket rules for everybody based on the fact that a small number of individuals are unable to conrol themselves.


And there in is the problem. The eggplant mentality is "give people a snot klap" It doesn't treat the problem at all. No what you need is system at the school. If a student gets out of line remove that student via security give that student a criminal record and that student will never set foot in a school again. Yes it is harsh because you are taking away his future but you are giving a future to the other 39 students in the same class. Thus the the needs of the many comes first. 

Real discipline starts with real responsibility

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## pmbguy

> ... Later on a gang took me on 3 against 1 and I won... Shortly after that I got into my first knife fight then faced my first attacker armed with a gun. {note I was always unarmed}



Just like Chuck Norris. Tec how did you fight off the attacker armed with a gun when you were unarmed?

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## pmbguy

Just encase you take my post the wrong way I should elaborate my question for the sake of clarity. Chuck Norris is usually unarmed that’s why I mentioned him in reverence to you. You did say you faced an attacker with a gun. So did you comply with the demands of the armed attacker or did you fight him off. If you did fight him off how did you do it?

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## adrianh

> Just like Chuck Norris. Tec how did you fight off the attacker armed with a gun when you were unarmed?


He pulled some Kung Fu on that them there dudes a$$

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## tec0

> Just like Chuck Norris. Tec how did you fight off the attacker armed with a gun when you were unarmed?


I only remember seeing red. I can't recall anything... Normally when I get into a fight I lose control... When I lose control I see red... Just red...

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## adrianh

So, when you see red you become bulletproof, cool.

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## Citizen X

Violence in our schools is a deadly serious matter. My concluding opinion is that we will only successfully redress this problem by changing the fabric of our society from a moral and ethical perspective.
This problem can’t be successfully addressed by only the government, schools and school governing bodies. It will require an integrated approach i.e. parents, teachers, school governing bodies, religious organizations etc. Eradicating poverty and crime will contribute to less violence in our schools
I can’t see how any South African is really surprised by the Glenvista High incident simply because we live in a very violent society.
I think that this child offender is still very young and still has a future ahead of him in spite of what he has done.

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tec0 (14-Oct-13)

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## Citizen X

Not to make light of a situation that is serious but sometimes a different perspective is useful, besides the protagonists of this thread have taken the thread through different directions, I have a direction of my own!

Im willing to bet that you will find a current criminal who not only holds that prestigious title but he is current incarcerated and still serving out his sentence. The crimes may differ murder, armed robbery, atm boimbing, theft, assault in its various forms, house breaking with intent to rob to name a few.
Its not beyond reasonable speculation that at least some of them may be able to truthfully testify that despite what theyve done and admittedly theyve been breaking the law since childhood and also considering what other members of their community may say about them such as their family, friends, church, soccer club, previous schools. This criminal may say the following:

_Yes, Ive done a lot but I never assaulted my teacher, the thought hadnt occurred to me and I had a great respect for my teacher. In fact my teacher always said that I was well behaved! Considering where I am, in this hell of prison, I say that you give this kid a chance. He did assault his teacher, as mentioned I would have never dared, but hes young and naïve, he didnt break in your house like I did, he didnt rob you in a violent manner as the court record would show I did and he also didnt murder you[I still maintain my innocence, I never murdered those people in the house I robbed I only wanted to rob them which I did]. 

Also, that train accident I caused, I want to state and confirm for the record that my intention was only sabotage, I wanted to blow the rail tracks so that the train derailed and the company suffers. I did realize that some people would be injured and killed but I must clarify I had nothing against them. I was just a disgruntled employee. I only wanted the train to come off the tracks to punish the company.__

This kid done this some time back, hes already withdrawn from his schooling community where he could have learnt something, hes now out in the cold. Help him to a point where his life is turned around for the better. Ive learnt a thing or two about time, the past 15 years here hasnt been nice. I still have 5 to go before parole, his next 15 years are still formative and challenging.
_

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tec0 (18-Oct-13)

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## pmbguy

I sometimes travel out to the rural areas around PMB to service black schools. I find that the more rural the schools are the more disciplined the children are. One headmaster impressed me greatly with his style of discipline. The kids are well behaved, neat and relatively quiet when going about their business. The headmaster of this school carries around with him at all times a willow stick that he tucks into his belt. After I serviced their machines I sat down with him in his office for some tea. I complimented him on how disciplined the kids are and I enquired about the stick he carries around with him. He explained that he uses the stick very seldom, but the mere fact that the kids know they will get a wack if they step out of line is enough to discourage bad behaviour. I asked whether he was not afraid of getting into trouble with the department, but he explained that the parents are on his side. He said that without discipline the kids simply won’t receive the education they deserve. So for the sake of the children he is willing to break the law by giving the odd hiding. Because of the subsequent good discipline the teachers are motivated and they have a close to 100% pass rate.

Other schools I visit stand in stark contrast to the school above. The kids are ill disciplined the teachers are not motivated and their pass rate is pathetic.

This makes me wonder whether banning corporal punishment was really in the best interest of the children.

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Dave A (21-Oct-13)

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## HR Solutions

> I will say it again, this country lacks discipline. Corporal punishment is a very effective way to punish people. Too much democracy and freedom is not a good thing, just look at the state of this country...


I fully agree with you Adrian.  It worked in our day.  If you caused trouble at school you were given a hiding and then when you went home and told your folks they would give you another hiding. It worked in the army.  You did not cause trouble with a corporal because he would very quickly sort you out.  Discipline starts in the home.  If you are ill disciplined you will more than likely find that your parents were non existent.  Nothing wrong with giving kids a good klap or hiding now and then.

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## tec0

Well there are soon to be new laws in the "first world" where you can have your child killed for being sickly... I mean why give them any chance at life right? Suppose that the "bully mentality" is a disorder passed down from father to child. they say the apple doesn't fall far from the tree. I have no feeling in my left hand because a lady thought it was ok to burn a child's hand on a oven plate as punishment... What do you think? Think burning a child's hand on a hot oven plate is punishment enough? 

Nah hurting someone especially a child is a sickness not a solution.

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## tec0



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## HR Solutions

I don't watch these video's, they are boring.
And anyway euthanasia and violence in schools have nothing to do with each other.

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## tec0

> I don't watch these video's, they are boring.
> And anyway euthanasia and violence in schools have nothing to do with each other.


Well that is your opinion and lets not forget that you yourself test people for dyslexia thus moderating who does and who doesn't get work or rather that was your intention on another thread. Thus I question your motive in discrediting any content overall. That said there is a relation between these two things. Right now a test are being developed to spot psychotic behaviour. Now combine this test with pre-birth DNA testing and you can test for psychotic behaviour before the child is born. Now the Mother needs to decide does she want a psychotic child or not?

So yes there is a strong connection between the above and violence in our schools. See this can act as a precursor to make this type of testing a law to avoid violence in general.

See you yourself demanded in other thread that people must accept what they get and must not complain for work is a privilege not a right. So soon your wish may well come true as this type of testing will create the perfect yes man a human that does not question does not react only acts and moves as demanded. In short you will have your slaves... 

See there is always a link... it is your choice to see it or not.  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## HR Solutions

Sorry you are not making sense.  But don't worry about it ....

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## tec0

> Sorry you are not making sense.  But don't worry about it ....


I am sorry if this is above your reasoning. 

But the countries funding this type of research have a prison population of over 1.5 million people. Thus they need to find the cause and eradicate it because they cannot afford another 1.5 million prisoners. Being a business man I am sure you can appreciate the taxation and cost factor of such a large prison population.  

Herein is the key to understanding the links. First if you can identify violent people “before birth” you can force the mother to abort or accept liability. Thus violence in schools will be a thing of the past. But at what cost? Anger is one of the mechanisms that keep us competitive, how will it be if humans no longer have this drive? I am sure that with your military background you can understand why anger and aggression is needed on the battlefield. If you never had these experiences then I would imagine it would be difficult to comprehend.

See this law will allow the above mentioned testing to be condoned and will allow the termination of a particular genetic pool. It is also a known fact that third world countries have a tendency to adopt the laws of first world countries. But again being a tourist of these first would countries I am sure that you can identify that our country’s law system share similarities with the first world. 

After all you had a fist hand experience.

But I understand if it doesn’t make sense to you. 

Have a good day sir.

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## HR Solutions

> I am sorry if this is above your reasoning


No problem

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## Citizen X

> Nothing wrong with giving kids a good klap or hiding now and then.


The Constitutional Court simply doesn’t agree with you!

Corporal punishment is a non-legal issue as it has already been decided upon.
_Even before it was decided upon_ there was already post 1994 legislation in place prohibiting corporal punishment.

The matter that went to the Constitutional Court was a test of whether that particular law is Constitutional and valid. The CC found it completely valid.

Common assault by a student on a teacher and by a teacher on a student is prohibited by law. It’s a criminal offence for either the school child or the teacher to commit common assault

So though you say there's nothing wrong with assault, jurisprudence is against you on all counts..

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## HR Solutions

I didn't say anything about whether it is legal or not via any constitutional court.  I merely said - nothing wrong with a Klap now and again - at home.  Neither did I mention corporal punishment at school ! ( which I know is illegal, although I feel worked very well) .

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## pmbguy

I don’t think anybody here in ignorant of the law regarding corporal punishment. I think the argument here is related to whether corporal punishment is indeed socially beneficial. It is clear that discipline in our schools has got much worse since corporal punishment has been banned. Whether this is evidence enough for us to believe it should be reinstated is unclear. A part of me does not like any form of violence.

Perhaps we could say that yes corporal punishment as an act is immoral, given that it is an act of violence (not in self defence), but that the means justify the ends given that it does lead to a more disciplined society. A disciplined society leads to a less violent society.

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## Citizen X

> I don’t think anybody here in ignorant of the law regarding corporal punishment. I think the argument here is related to whether corporal punishment is indeed socially beneficial. It is clear that discipline in our schools has got much worse since corporal punishment has been banned. Whether this is evidence enough for us to believe it should be reinstated is unclear. A part of me does not like any form of violence.
> 
> Perhaps we could say that yes corporal punishment as an act is immoral, given that it is an act of violence (not in self defence), but that the means justify the ends given that it does lead to a more disciplined society. A disciplined society leads to a less violent society.


_My point here is that you’ll find your position or argument or stance somewhere in this judgment regardless of whether you arguing on the basis of morality or natural law or even law. Your argument is there and there is a written response from the Constitutional Court judges.
_
_If it just comes down to the concept of a parent assaulting their child to punish thenm in the home, well, we have legislation in the pipelines that disigned to prohibit that. 
_
For the sake of argument… 

Let’s allow actual Consititutional Court Judges to answer you, which is done through case-law. It’s almost as if they want to reason with you as an individual notwithstanding the fact that they the highest court in the land.
Would your current argument still have any weight in response to what the CC has already thoroughly dissected with medical precision in the following case?
_In Christian Education South Africa v Minister of Education_ (CCT4/00) [2000] ZACC 11; 2000 (4) SA 757; 2000 (10) BCLR 1051 (18 August 2000) at
Para 43, 45, 46 Judge Sachs has the following to say:


“Courts throughout the world have shown special solicitude for protecting children from what they have regarded as the potentially injurious consequences of their parents’ religious practices. It is now widely accepted that in every matter concerning the child, the child’s best interests must be of paramount importance. This Court has recently reaffirmed the significance of this right which every child has.”

“The second and more persuasive argument is to the effect that the state has an interest in protecting pupils from degradation and indignity. The respondent contended that the trend in Europe and neighbouring African countries was firmly in the direction of abolition of corporal punishment, and that the core value of human dignity in our Bill of Rights did not countenance the use of physical force to achieve scholarly correction. Accordingly, respondent was under an obligation to prohibit such punishment, and to do so without exception and for the benefit of all children. The appellant replied that for believers, including the children involved, the indignity and degradation lay not in the punishment, but in the defiance of the scriptures represented by leaving the misdeeds unpunished.”


“The issue of whether corporal punishment in schools is in itself degrading was touched upon but not decided by this Court in S v Williams and Others.Holding that judicially ordered corporal punishment of juveniles was in conflict with the Bill of Rights, Langa J stated that “the issue of corporal punishment [in] schools [was] by no means free of controversy” and that “the practice [had] inevitably come in for strong criticism”. In his view, the “culture of authority which legitimate[d] the use of violence [was] inconsistent with the values for which the Constitution stands”.Speaking generally, he stated that: 

“The deliberate infliction of pain with a cane on a tender part of the body as well as the institutionalised nature of the procedure involved an element of cruelty in the system that sanction[ed] it. The activity is planned beforehand, it is deliberate. Whether the person administering the strokes has a cruel streak or not is beside the point. It could hardly be claimed, in a physical sense at least, that the act pains him more than his victim. The act is impersonal, executed by a stranger, in alien surroundings. The juvenile is, indeed, treated as an object and not as a human being.”[1]










[1]http://www.saflii.org/za/cases/ZACC/2000/11.html. Accessed 27 October 2013

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## Justloadit

What we are forgetting here is that we are only now beginning to experiencing the lack of discipline in our society, this lack of total disrespect for you fellow human. I experience this on a daily basis on the roads and in the streets. Total disrespect to your fellow human being, WTF are you, I am more important than you, I have always been more important than every one else. Look at our learners, not only in South Africa, but in the UK and USA, they reach college and still can not comprehend what they read, why because no one can make me do anything, it is against the law.

We are beginning to experience the this "lack of responsibility for your actions", "I do because I know there are no consequences, as I am protected by the law" which becomes a habit from a child into adulthood.

We are still to reap the fruits of our actions today.

Talking is not going to instill discipline, and I also do not accept systematic thrashing to instill discipline, but sometimes the only way to get through is a good smack to bring you back into reality.

I have been watching this subject closely for a good number of years, and what the conclusion that I have come to, and this is my opinion, is that children who had no discipline are ill equipped to handle today's problems, as they never had to learn, and tend to be misfits in society. The kids that have grown up with a strong discipline tend to be far more successful in adulthood.

If you follow most successful people, you will note that discipline played an important role in their early lives.
I feel that the broad brush stroke is being applied here for the few that are being abused. 
Like all systems, the majority pays the price for the solitary few who are abusive. This 'make it a law' whilst sounding as the right action, is in itself contrary to what it is trying to achieve.

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pmbguy (27-Oct-13)

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## pmbguy

Thanks Vanash I am aware of what the law says on the matter and I certainly do not have the authority or legal knowledge to challenge what constitutional judges lay down as law, but I will still humbly voice my concerns and opinions.  

As a child I was extremely naughty and rebellious. My parents had a very hard time keeping me in line. Because of my behaviour I was disciplined often with the cane by my teachers and my parents. This discipline did eventually curb my behaviour and today I am very thankful for it. If I did not receive such strong discipline back then I would probably be in jail or dead today. People who grow up without strong discipline grow up with a false sense of self importance and are the “know it all’s” we so often come across. People without discipline get eaten alive out in the real world because they never learned to look at their own faults and take responsibility for their actions. They don’t learn to change bad behaviour they seek instead to blame others and hide behind their individual rights. In my humble opinion the law has tunnelvisioned itself too much on individual rights to the detriment of society as a whole.

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adrianh (27-Oct-13)

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## HR Solutions

Vanash , as pmb says most of us are aware of the law, therefore you do not need to copy paste long drawn out scripts, which are still open for "argument"

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## adrianh

My metalwork teacher used to smack the crap out of us - we all got distinctions in metalwork... I wish my maths teacher also beat us all the time...

The law has no value because nobody respects it...
1. Why should the great unwashed respect the law if the powers that be don't?
2. Why would people respect the law if it either not enforced or enforced arbitrarily depending on who you are and how much money you have?
3. Many people are better off in jail so what do they care.

In this country the law isn't simply an ass, it is a total joke enforced by a bunch of clowns.

I say that 3rd world deeds must be punished by 3rd world methods, a good couple of smacks is generally all that it takes!

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## pmbguy

I actually hold great respect for Vanash and him posting quotations of the law is not entirely out of place he is after all a lawyer and he wanted to put his point across by quoting how the law views the matter. I simply wanted to point out that we are not ignorant of the law as HR pointed out. 

I don’t feel that we must ever see the law as being infallible or even correct. After all the constitution is still just a document.

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## adrianh

The law...is a joke...

They make it up as they go along and they apply it when and how it pleases them.

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## Justloadit

Has anyone seen how large a law book is, or how many pages written with laws, in fact how many laws have been promulgated.

Heck I reckon that just getting out of bed in the morning, and you probably have contravened some law or other. There are so many laws already, and yet they promulgate more laws ona regular basis, and yet they can not even enforce the already promulgated laws.

Promulgating more laws is not going to make a society a better place, education and discipline will. 
Humanity has been doing pretty well up to now, we have managed to survive the dark ages, renaissance and the new world, using the old Roman laws, now we must regulate every single aspect of our lives with a law, then pat ourselves on our backs, and saying how educated we are, let's make another law, just so that we think we are going to evolve and be more educated. 

In times not so distance, a handshake was a binding contract, today we need to sign 500 page contracts, and then use the law to get out of the contract, and we call ourselves better to day because of the laws promulgated. I think that we are complicating life too much.

Next our children will be bulling the parents, and then we will need to promulgate another law, that children must not beat their parents or some other action.......

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## adrianh

No law can protect people from their own stupidity.

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## Citizen X

> Vanash , as pmb says most of us are aware of the law, therefore *you do not need to* copy paste long drawn out scripts, *which are still open for "argument"*


Firstly I'll take the liberty of deciding what I do state in a thread or omit to state in a thread*(Not taking instructions from you here)

**Correction!!!!* This matter in terms of the court and law is open for no discussion whatsoever. *Yes, in this thread we may express our opinion.
*
HR Solutions, I most certainly don't want to copy and paste what I have previously stated in this thread, had you read what I had to say, there would then have been no logical need to copy and paste anything from what is otherwise a very lenghty judgment.

Just making my point, nothing wrong there.
Most of my posts on this thread focused on the actual problem of violence in our schools and my opinion of how this violence needs to be dealt with.
I’ve maintained that an integrated approach is required.
So, from a perspective of fairness, please enlighten me as to how I ‘copied, cut and paste,’ so much of my actual opinions on this matter.

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## Citizen X

In my official capacity as layman, my concluding opinion on violence in schools and disciplining children is simply this. It’s *common cause* that it’s a non- legal issue and post 1994 legislation was promulgated to prohibit corporal punishment.
*My further point* is that whatever argument, stance, opinion you may have on this matter, and yes, we all entitled to our opinions, *you will find* your stance or opinion or view or objection somewhere in this judgment and you will receive a comprehensive and well structured response from several of the Constitutional Court Judges who heard this matter and put their findings into writing for whomsoever to see.

 [1]http://www.saflii.org/za/cases/ZACC/2000/11.html.

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## Citizen X

*‘res ipsa loquitur.’*

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tec0 (28-Oct-13)

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## HR Solutions

I'm not sure why you feel it necessary to BOLD everything .... It really comes across as shouting ..... !

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## Citizen X

> I'm not sure why you feel it necessary to BOLD everything .... It really comes across as shouting ..... !


I hate to point out the obvious to you, but less than 1% of my posts in this specific thread are in bold(So the conclusion you draw is flawed and has no factual basis whatsoever)!!

Furthermore I have a profound respect for the rules of TFSA, as such, should any moderator or management of TFSA call me to order on any thread, I will gladly comply! You needn't concern yourself too much as to why I would decide to place a certain word(s) in bold, *it's my prerogative!
*
That said, not shouting at anyone, merely making a point :Wink:

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tec0 (28-Oct-13)

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## tec0

In retrospect I would say a punishment must be fitting.  I dont see how a snot klap can solve violence in school. If the people is armed and is willing to take a life then obviously normal discipline will have no effect. This person made a choice and is willing and able to take a life for what reason I leave to speculation. 

I say again if you are willing to hurt a child then that is a sickness it is not discipline. Discipline is easy to introduce and easy to maintain. Access control, and proper security cameras will do much more to keep students inline because their actions can and will be used against them by law. 

This will protect the good student and the bad one can deal with the cops and the many laws that govern this country. We are not dealing with "there homework wasn't done type of problems" You are dealing with someone that is ready to take a human life. Clearly it is not the same thing.

As stated before: 

*facts speak for themselves*

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## HR Solutions

Perhaps if some kids had a "snot klap" by their parents on their way up between the age's of 5-16 they wouldn't act like imbeciles at school !

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## Justloadit

Discipline must be instilled from a very young age, and that is when a snot klap is effective. In my case it took only a couple of them to get my kids to understand that there is a time to play, and a time to behave. Waiting for the kids to reach 16 with a free reign, and then attempting to instill discipline is where the problem lies. The damage of ill discipline has already been ingrained.

How many times have you seen very young kids having a fit in a public place because mommy/daddy does not wish to allow the kid to have what he/she wants. Now I am not saying that the parents must klap the kids in public to make their point, the way to do it is when the you get home, that's when you instil the discipline. The next time they do in public, one simply mentions the action of the time before, and immediately the discipline kicks in.

When I was a kid, my mother simply gave me a skeef look, and I already knew that I have over stepped my boundary. During my upbringing I got a few deservedly good hidings, but I was never beaten up for the sake of it. With today's laws, this would be seen as an assault.

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## Citizen X

> How many times have you seen very young kids having a fit in a public place because mommy/daddy does not wish to allow the kid to have what he/she wants.


Many times in various malls. Kids are generally very demanding today. There is a lack of discipline and respect. The best interest of the child is the point of departure(This best interest definately includes being free from inhuman, violent and degrading treatment). The very fabric of our moral and ethical structure of SA society needs to change

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tec0 (28-Oct-13)

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## pmbguy

I like to refer to children as drunk midgets. Because they look and behave just like drunk midgets  :Big Grin:

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## tec0

> Discipline must be instilled from a very young age, and that is when a snot klap is effective. In my case it took only a couple of them to get my kids to understand that there is a time to play, and a time to behave. Waiting for the kids to reach 16 with a free reign, and then attempting to instill discipline is where the problem lies. The damage of ill discipline has already been ingrained.
> 
> How many times have you seen very young kids having a fit in a public place because mommy/daddy does not wish to allow the kid to have what he/she wants. Now I am not saying that the parents must klap the kids in public to make their point, the way to do it is when the you get home, that's when you instil the discipline. The next time they do in public, one simply mentions the action of the time before, and immediately the discipline kicks in.
> 
> When I was a kid, my mother simply gave me a skeef look, and I already knew that I have over stepped my boundary. During my upbringing I got a few deservedly good hidings, but I was never beaten up for the sake of it. With today's laws, this would be seen as an assault.


This is difficult to talk about because I use to be a parent/guardian I took the time to understand the child there reasoning and their behaviour.  Then carefully I introduced manners, discipline and manipulated there thinking to the point where they behave because they see themselves 

I gave them value and a profound sense Honour dignity and integrity. Today they want to succeed and they do...  I am proud to say  :Smile:

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## Citizen X

*Has a ‘Hiding,’ worked?*

_Just some original thought here:
_
Though I don’t have empirical evidence from the little that I can deduced, based on the fact that from 1918 and WW1 and 1939 with its WW2 to today on the 28th October 2013, we do have a 95 years of world history. We do have in these 95 years about 3 generations of ‘parents,’ given lifespan.

1. So, with 95 years of actual world history and in particular South African history has a ‘hiding,’ since 1918 to the 28 October 2013 worked?;
2. If a ‘hiding,’ has in actual fact worked efficiently and effectively in addressing ill- discipline in children, then answer me this simple original question: How on earth did the parents of these past three generations discipline their children? 
3.The product of these past three generations have produced children that in effect have caused two world wars, failed to address a famine stricken world and have on-going war, civil war, social strife, economic strife and the current world as we know and love it;
4. 95 years of world criminal history. Oh you got to love the ‘criminal!’ One can rightfully ask, how did the parents of all the world criminals from 1918 to date discipline their children? They must have done something. It clearly didn’t work!
5. 95 years of actual religious history (in particular Christianity). This past three generations ‘hiding,’ produced no better results as is evident by the conduct of many of its own members over this past 95 years. Surely they got a good ‘hiding!’
6. 95 years of ‘punks,’ and their parents. Here I can only wonder how discipline was carried out. The behavior draws attention.
It comes down to this simple inalienable right. According to our Constitution a human being regardless of his/her age, even a baby has certain human rights that not even a parent can take away from him or her. 

_That child has met the simple requirement of just being a ‘human being.’_

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tec0 (28-Oct-13)

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## HR Solutions

Imagine the corporal that could not dish out discipline ...... No-wonder the army is as it is today.

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## Justloadit

It's also interesting that there has been more progress in the last 95 years than there has been in the last 3000 years.
Not to mention the schools which have the most discipline are the schools that are performing the best academically, a very good example is Jeppe Boy's high.

Whilst you are using the last 95 years as an example, the introduction of the constitutional rights has only been implemented in the last 20 years, and we are already seeing the chaos, children are allowed to pass on marks below 40%.

Discipline and learning are reinforced by consequences of actions, this is part of growing up. Reasoning only plays a part if the child has the ability to have learn't the original lesson. So what ensures the child has  learn't the lesson in the first place?

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## adrianh

> *Has a ‘Hiding,’ worked?*
> 
> _Just some original thought here:
> _
> Though I don’t have empirical evidence from the little that I can deduced, based on the fact that from 1918 and WW1 and 1939 with its WW2 to today on the 28th October 2013, we do have a 95 years of world history. We do have in these 95 years about 3 generations of ‘parents,’ given lifespan.
> 
> 1. So, with 95 years of actual world history and in particular South African history has a ‘hiding,’ since 1918 to the 28 October 2013 worked?;
> 2. If a ‘hiding,’ has in actual fact worked efficiently and effectively in addressing ill- discipline in children, then answer me this simple original question: How on earth did the parents of these past three generations discipline their children? 
> 3.The product of these past three generations have produced children that in effect have caused two world wars, failed to address a famine stricken world and have on-going war, civil war, social strife, economic strife and the current world as we know and love it;
> ...


@Vanash, Iv'e asked you this before, as an intelligent person who obviously is logical and understands the law, how can you create such a ridiculous argument by clutching straws in one hand and rocks in the other and then forcing them together. I mean really, your connection between cause and effect is a stretch to say the very least.

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## Citizen X

> @Vanash, Iv'e asked you this before, as an intelligent person who obviously is logical and understands the law, how can you create such a ridiculous argument by clutching straws in one hand and rocks in the other and then forcing them together. I mean really, your connection between cause and effect is a stretch to say the very least.


The simple point that I am trying to make is that throughout the world over the past 95 years parents have been giving their kids a ‘hiding.’ Why then is our present world in such a dismal state of affairs?

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## Justloadit

What I find even more interesting is that laws are set up to supposedly protect people. Your argument is that we as educated individuals have the capacity to know what is right and what is wrong, then why are laws necessary and why is there a punishment for contravening the law. Bringing a child up is a similar action, it is about educating, and that there is a consequence for not listening.

Let's say that a child wants to place a hand on a stove hot plate, you can warn them that they are going to burn themselves, and you push their hand away, the child insists on attempting to do this, you again explain and push the hand away. The child is not going to listen to reason, simply because it does not know that the stove plate will burn the skin on their hand. The one way is to smack the child, which now instills discipline that you are attempting to teach the child through your knowledge and experience. The other way is to let the child put their hand on the plate, and burn their skin, and now you have to take them to a hospital and go through all the aggravation of tending the wound until it is healed, and have a stigma that you can not look after your child, you are a bad parent.

Understanding a child and teaching a child are two worlds apart. A child just does not have the knowledge and background that you have, so how is a child going to understand the consequences of an action. Now as an adult you have told the child that there is a consequence if you do not head your parents word, would that not be part of teaching your child.

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Dave A (29-Oct-13)

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## Citizen X

> What I find even more interesting is that laws are set up to supposedly protect people. Your argument is that we as educated individuals have the capacity to know what is right and what is wrong, then why are laws necessary and why is there a punishment for contravening the law. Bringing a child up is a similar action, it is about educating, and that there is a consequence for not listening.
> 
> Let's say that a child wants to place a hand on a stove hot plate, you can warn them that they are going to burn themselves, and you push their hand away, the child insists on attempting to do this, you again explain and push the hand away. The child is not going to listen to reason, simply because it does not know that the stove plate will burn the skin on their hand. The one way is to smack the child, which now instills discipline that you are attempting to teach the child through your knowledge and experience. The other way is to let the child put their hand on the plate, and burn their skin, and now you have to take them to a hospital and go through all the aggravation of tending the wound until it is healed, and have a stigma that you can not look after your child, you are a bad parent.
> 
> Understanding a child and teaching a child are two worlds apart. A child just does not have the knowledge and background that you have, so how is a child going to understand the consequences of an action. Now as an adult you have told the child that there is a consequence if you do not head your parents word, would that not be part of teaching your child.


Suppose we have a juvenile delinquent. He likes to steal and rob people. So his dad beats him up with a baseball bat to discipline him. The child loses a few teeth but tells his dad, regardless of whether you beat me with a bat or not I’m still going to rob and steal. 
What constitutes a ‘hiding?’ If your child is disobedient, will tying him to a tree for a week really address the problem?
Many parents have taken the concept of hiding way too far and in the process killed their children including babies.
My question still stands: If ‘hiding,’ was so effective over the past 95 years, then why is our current world in such a dismal state of affairs?
You can’t do the same thing and get different results..

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## HR Solutions

> Suppose we have a juvenile delinquent. He likes to steal and rob people. So his dad beats him up with a baseball bat to discipline him. The child loses a few teeth but tells his dad, regardless of whether you beat me with a bat or not I’m still going to rob and steal. 
> What constitutes a ‘hiding?’ If your child is disobedient, will tying him to a tree for a week really address the problem?
> Many parents have taken the concept of hiding way too far and in the process killed their children including babies.
> My question still stands: If ‘hiding,’ was so effective over the past 95 years, then why is our current world in such a dismal state of affairs?
> You can’t do the same thing and get different results..



Theres a BIG difference disciplining a child with a baseball bat vs a Klap !!!
Cant you see that ???

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## Dave S

> The simple point that I am trying to make is that throughout the world over the past 95 years parents have been giving their kids a ‘hiding.’ Why then is our present world in such a dismal state of affairs?


Maybe there just weren't enough "hidings" :Wink:  

But seriously, I grew up in a staunch British Christian family and despite hidings and strong discipline, I ran off the tracks. For me to blame my parent for that would be ridiculous, it was a choice I made, not my parent. The thing is I knew it was wrong, because of the discipline instilled in me by my parents, and having raised a family myself, I am very grateful for the insight my parent has given me.

However in today's fast, stressed environment, it would be just too easy to "lose it" when disciplining a child with a hiding, and one could very easily take-out a frustration on an undeserving child, after all, there is a fine line between discipline and abuse, but abuse can also take a mental approach without becoming physical, it is for a parent to always act in the interest of the child, therefore, the parent must have their own discipline and knowledge of what can harm or help a child. But blaming the parent for a child's downfall is not always correct, sometimes even the most disciplined children will go awry by their own choice or influence from outside the family.

Why our world is in such a dismal state, greed and power, not necessarily put there by parents, but rather by an ever-increasing population that is using resources at a phenomenal rate, and Joe Greed and Mr. Power want the control, basic human instinct, I guess.

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## Citizen X

[QUOTE=adrianh;99672I mean really, your connection between cause and effect is a stretch to say the very least.[/QUOTE]

The scientific twist works both ways!
What empirical evidence can you offer me that a ‘hiding,’ was an effective and efficient means of dealing with the ill-discipline of children worldwide from 1918 to date

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## Citizen X

> Maybe there just weren't enough "hidings" 
> 
> But seriously, I grew up in a staunch British Christian family and despite hidings and strong discipline, I ran off the tracks. For me to blame my parent for that would be ridiculous, it was a choice I made, not my parent. The thing is I knew it was wrong, because of the discipline instilled in me by my parents, and having raised a family myself, I am very grateful for the insight my parent has given me.
> 
> However in today's fast, stressed environment, it would be just too easy to "lose it" when disciplining a child with a hiding, and one could very easily take-out a frustration on an undeserving child, after all, there is a fine line between discipline and abuse, but abuse can also take a mental approach without becoming physical, it is for a parent to always act in the interest of the child, therefore, the parent must have their own discipline and knowledge of what can harm or help a child. But blaming the parent for a child's downfall is not always correct, sometimes even the most disciplined children will go awry by their own choice or influence from outside the family.
> 
> .


Look at this from another way: With the Catholic sex abuse cases, from the early 70’s to present[let’s not look at prior to 1970] you had a significant amount of offenders from various countries, if true discipline served its intended purpose then why on earth did they behave in such a vile manner?
What is then your purpose for discipline alternatively ‘hiding?” If the intended purpose is not achieved across global lines, why would anyone assume that this technique can still work?






> Why our world is in such a dismal state, greed and power, not necessarily put there by parents, but rather by an *ever-increasing population* that is using resources at a phenomenal rate, and Joe Greed and Mr. Power want the control, basic human instinct, I guess


Look at this from another way: With the *Catholic sex abuse cases*, from the early 70’s to present[let’s not look at prior to 1970] you had a significant amount of offenders from various countries, if true discipline served its intended purpose then why on earth did they behave in such a vile manner?
What is then your purpose for discipline alternatively ‘hiding?” If the intended purpose is not achieved across global lines, why would anyone assume that this technique can still work?
Who makes up this population? Surely this population is a microcosm, a litmus test if you will. Has a ‘hiding,’ accomplished it’s predetermined task?

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tec0 (29-Oct-13)

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## HR Solutions

LOL ...........

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## tec0

Discipline starts by understanding the mind then design a solution around that thought pattern. After that you introduce simple manipulations to show the individual who they are and their image that they project. 

Slowly you bring across an understanding of what is right and what is wrong. It works I know it works because I did it! You can teach a young mind if you take the time.  Love and attention and understanding. It works I know for a fact it does.

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## HR Solutions

> introduce simple manipulations to show the individual who they are


I Totally disagree with you.  Children grow up the way they are brought up.  My children grew up according to family morals and good family ethics.  We are a good family.  I would never "manipulate" my children to be something other than what they are.  The had to grow and fit in with the family.  If you teach your children the right things in life from a young age they will become that as they grow up.  I never had to lie to them - always the truth and honesty - no manipulation. I will never "show" my children who "they" are !! They will create their own personalities as they grow older with guidance.  Simple right and wrong and consequences.

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## adrianh

HR - It doesn't always work that way. My parents worked hard and did their best for us kids. My elder brother and sister did extremely well and towed the line. I was the total opposite, I simply could care, I would do whatever I wanted irrespective of what my parents said or demanded. My parents never smacked us and maybe they could have smacked all the nonsense out of me.

tec0 - interesting theory but it is absolute rubbish - I bet you don't have kids, staff or spent in time in the army. Discipline doesn't work that way. Personal discipline is the ability to do whatever is needed whether you like it or not, when you have discipline phrases such as "want to" "like to" "don't like to" don't want to" simply don't exist, you simply do what you have to do. If you think that you are going to get anywhere with a class of 16 year old boys in school by your method you are sadly mistaken, they will eat you alive you  think you are going to give each one love and attention and understanding...you want to teach and they need to learn...with clearly defined parameters of discipline.

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## HR Solutions

> It doesn't always work that way


No it doesn't, but 90% of the time it does work that way.  Its a good grounding to at least have and build on.

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## adrianh

HR - I don't know, it's very difficult to say, some kids just follow their own minds and some get into drugs n stuff. I agree that the most important part of a kids being is moulded around what goes on in the home but they are still free agents who follow their own minds. I think the trick is to be in constant touch with them, their lives, their education etc. I find that the biggest problems occur when parents are out of touch with their kids. We interact with the girls all the time, we all know what is going on in each others lives and we all support one another. It is easy to tell if something is off or if their is a problem if you interact with them all the time.

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HR Solutions (29-Oct-13)

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## pmbguy

Adrian I am rather similar to you. My two older siblings were the model of the perfect kids. I on the other hand was a wild child. I did what I wanted, went where I wanted and could not care two shits about what they had to say. I settled down when I was about 21 and now at 29 I am totally settled down. I think that all that discipline all those lessons they tried to instil in me has kicked in as an adult. I remember them saying that one day I will understand and now I do. I guess my point here is that even though a child may act totally against their parents will and have a mind of their own, the discipline advice and life lessons do surface later in life.

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## adrianh

@pmbguy, yes, I agree, it does surface eventually. My youth was a blur or stuffing about, drugs, riding bikes, crashing cars and doing mostly lots of stupid things. I did national service at about 22 and that settled me down. I found myself at age 42 and looking back a lot of who I am today is due to basic lessons  learned when I was very young.

I don't have simple answers for these issues, there were kids in high school with me who got smacked every day yet they would still do the same stupid thing the next day. Then there were the kids who could do nothing wrong and also ended up nowhere in life. Violence in school, it's always been there, kids used to fight in the toilets and smack each other senseless, they would meet in the park after school and have a rumble. Our school motto was that we would probably not win the soccer, rugby, cricket or whatever match but we would win the fight afterwards.

I think that some people are hyper creative, if the creativity is not directed they become serious $h1t stirrers. Look at gangsters, many of them are not stupid at all, they know how to do business and they sure know how to enforce discipline. What is the difference between a drug lord who worked his way up through the ranks and a legitimate business man...could it be only their merchandise, marketing methods and methods to enforce discipline...food for thought!

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## pmbguy

> ...What is the difference between a drug lord who worked his way up through the ranks and a legitimate business man...


Sure I think that businessmen and gangsters have allot in common. I think that sometimes its a thin line as to which way a child could turn out. Some have the ability to become either a great businessmen or a great gangster. That which pushes them in either direction is often up to their upbringing. Or it could even be one random incident  butterfly effect



I feel that a naughty kid is an intelligent kid. Testing the environment, pushing boundaries. When I look at how the guys turned out in my class, most of the ones that sat in front of class, never partied never stepped out of line are working in dead-end jobs today. I would say half of the guys in my naughty group are drug addict gum balls and the other half of the naughty group own their own business and doing well. It is perhaps related to not being averse to risk taking. This example may not extend to anybody elses experience. I also dont want to somehow advocate being a bad naughty kid, but this is simply how it played out for the guys in my class. In my example the naughty kids who could pull themselves right ended up the most successful.

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## Dave A

> The simple point that I am trying to make is that throughout the world over the past 95 years parents have been giving their kids a ‘hiding.’ Why then is our present world in such a dismal state of affairs?


That notion ignores the Dr. Spock effect. Some say his books and theories led to the moral degeneration of the USA.

Certainly a powerful factor in the equation.

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Citizen X (30-Oct-13), HR Solutions (30-Oct-13), Justloadit (30-Oct-13), pmbguy (30-Oct-13)

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## pmbguy

:Applaud: ............... :Applaud: ...... :Applaud: ... :Applaud:  :Applaud:  :Applaud:

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## Citizen X

> That notion ignores the Dr. Spock effect. Some say his books and theories led to the moral degeneration of the USA.
> 
> Certainly a powerful factor in the equation.


Benjamin Spock was a leading authority on raising children, he had his critics.
There was a bizarre rumor that went around for years, especially on the internet, that Benjamin Spock’s son committed suicide. This is actually not true; it was in fact his grandson who committed suicide in 1983

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## Justloadit

Unfortunately it joins dots back to Dr. Spock and his methods, and lays the question whether the initial upbringing created the knock on effect.

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## tec0

I suppose if someone wants to hurt a child and call it discipline then that is there point of view. I still think if you are willing to hurt a child that, that is a sickness and not a solution. A proper foundation starts with love and attention. In later life those foundations will make for a strong mind and things like peer-pressure will fail. I know this to be true. 

If a 16 year old is out of line then “remove” that 16 year old from the class. By doing so you are setting a precedence that the other students will note. Fact is you don’t need a criminal in a classroom you don’t need a criminal stalking the school grounds. 

The needs of the masses comes first. It is a simple truth and one that can be implemented without any difficulty. All you need is basic security and if the child is out of line, phone for mom or dad tell them that their child is disruptive and that is the end of it. Mom or dad removes the child and eventually the child will realise that more and more schools will not accept the student in question.

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## HR Solutions

> If a 16 year old is out of line then “remove” that 16 year old from the class. By doing so you are setting a precedence that the other students will note. Fact is you don’t need a criminal in a classroom you don’t need a criminal stalking the school grounds.


No that is not a fact at all !! You cannot keep removing a person from a class.  After you have removed him every day for a month or so his buddies will also start playing up and will also want to be removed !! We have an obligation to educate children.  If you keep removing a kid or the same kid all the time, he is NOT getting educated !! Where do you think this is going to lead ?  He will leave school without an education and become a drop out who will soon move on to crime !!





> The needs of the masses comes first. It is a simple truth and one that can be implemented without any difficulty


I can only laugh very hard at this comment.

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## tec0

> No that is not a fact at all !! You cannot keep removing a person from a class.  After you have removed him every day for a month or so his buddies will also start playing up and will also want to be removed !! We have an obligation to educate children.  If you keep removing a kid or the same kid all the time, he is NOT getting educated !! Where do you think this is going to lead ?  He will leave school without an education and become a drop out who will soon move on to crime !!
> 
> I can only laugh very hard at this comment.





> fter you have removed him every day for a month or so his buddies will also start playing up and will also want to be removed !!


See here is the key to your way of thinking. You deem that his friends will want to be removed from school 

Realistically this will not happen unless it is a gang. Fact is violent offender regardless of there age can be treated as an adult in the eyes of the law. Once the criminal in the school are deemed by law to be seen as an adult steps can be taken. By law he will end up in a correctional facility where he can exercise his right to an education.    




> He will leave school without an education and become a drop out who will soon move on to crime !!


No... Drop outs can still get an education. I am a dropout I got an education and is working on getting a "higher education aka Degree" I have many qualifications and never had to resort to crime. Fact is if you want to better yourself you can better yourself. 

But lets say you want to hurt this "bully" and call it discipline. What is to stop him from driving a sharp object into your kidney? How is a hiding going to stop any form of attack on other students and or teachers? Fact is you need security. It doesn't matter how you cut it you will need a secure school otherwise any system you introduce will fail.

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## tec0

To be fair I will answer the same questions stated above. 

I personally believe security "scanning for weapons are easy enough" The technology is good and not that expensive. Also this will flag any student that has a weapon and allow for investigation. 

Second question how to a teacher protect themselves? The answer I would imagine is twofold. First by Eliminating weapons and second by having security camera’s and personnel you can intervene and perhaps stop the attack OR help the teacher to get help if the attacker was successful. it is not a 100% but it is better then nothing. 

So how would you protect the teachers, students against criminals? By removing the criminal.

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## Justloadit

> if the child is out of line, phone for mom or dad tell them that their child is disruptive and that is the end of it. Mom or dad removes the child and eventually the child will realise that more and more schools will not accept the student in question.


The problem here is the parents are not interested and quite frankly do not give a damn, that is the reason the kid is a mess in the first place. There is no discipline at home any way.
Most parents feel that the school is supposed to instil discipline.

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## Dave A

I get the sense that issues are being confused here - at the expense of a coherent conversation. 

*Why* some kids are ill-disciplined/violent and what should and should not be done in early formative years to prevent them getting to this point is a very different issue to when the discipline is long gone, their habits and values are established, they're out of control, and someone needs to protect themselves or other innocents from the harm these delinquents are causing. 

Claiming measures as appropriate/inappropriate for formative issues has no correlation to the measures appropriate/inappropriate for more mature, hardened delinquents.

If the conversation is to get anywhere at all, you have to separate "how kids become violent delinquents" from "what to do with violent delinquents".

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## tec0

> The problem here is the parents are not interested and quite frankly do not give a damn, that is the reason the kid is a mess in the first place. There is no discipline at home any way.
> Most parents feel that the school is supposed to instil discipline.



You are right sadly we have a big problem with parents that don’t care. But perhaps they need to be reminded that they are still liable and that is where schools need to start. If the parent are being held liable and this is by law. Then will they not take an interest?

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## tec0

To be fair I personally think school as we know it is on its way out. The education system has a lot of problems to deal with and I think it comes down to the volume of students and their needs. I cannot imagine that it is cheap to run every school in South Africa. 

Access control will simply take too long to administer unless we adopt one of the first world systems where the student remains in school till about 5 in the evenings. This will allow for the extra time needed to scan for weapons and drugs. 

But I think this is more a question of manpower vs cost than anything else.  

Violence in schools will persist till the laws change.

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## pmbguy

A coherent conversation? Now thats a novel idea

 :Rofl:

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## adrianh

> A coherent conversation? Now that’s a novel idea


Now you know exactly why I talk to myself  :Crazy:

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