# General Business Category > Entrepreneurship and Business Management Forum >  Competence.

## I Robot

Extract for Dave A's article on Competence:



> The shortage that I think our nation is suffering from is far more sinister, debilitating and generally bad for medium to long term prospects than something as relatively uncomplicated as money. *What we are desperately short of is competence.* And it's starting to cost us dear.


Discuss this article here.

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## duncan drennan

I really enjoyed the article and decided to Digg It

If you want to expose this to millions of people get over there and Digg It right now! Let me know if you can't figure out how to  :Confused:

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## Dave A

I struggled to find it until I used the search tool with keyword *competence*.

Interesting site!

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## entoserv

I don't know about Digg - but this needs to get to our masters of rhetoric.  :Taz:  

Is rhetoric a buzzword?  :Blushing:

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## duncan drennan

Use this link to get straight through to it - come on let's see if we can Digg it enough to push it onto the landing pages!

http://digg.com/search?s=organizational+competence

Just click on the "digg it" link (just below the digg counter). You'll be presented with the option to login or register. Follow the registration process and viola!
____________

Guy Kawasaki had a post on his blog about using Digg to generate traffic. The post can be found here, http://blog.guykawasaki.com/2006/09/..._use_digg.html




> Here’s a good example. This is my traffic log for the first few weeks of September. The spike of 37,366 page views on September 8th is purely because a blog posting appeared on the home page of Digg.


Sorry if I'm derailing this thread!!  :Offtopic:  

You can also add "Digg this!" links to your site/blog/articles etc. As on Guy's blog. Seems like a good way to try to get some exposure - I'll be trying to set this up with my next blog posting and see what the results are.

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## MarieAnnetta

I have been reading an instructive book called 'Poor Charlie's Almanack' written by Charlie Munger Vice-Chair of Berkshire. The book is filled with straight, down-the-line workable methodologies.  :Slayer:  ( I hate rambling tomes of unworkable theories, written by some professor who's only seen the end of his nose - never mind life in a company!)

Competence is a critical factor in Mr Munger's book and he berates those that love shoddiness. 

The competent person feels at total peace. They know how to get the thing done - correctly and intelligently. Nice place to be I should think!

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## adrianh

> The competent person feels at total peace.


So you are saying a competent person is the one that's high on dope.




> They know how to get the thing done - correctly and intelligently.


Good one, then the rest of humanity, 99.99999% of us, who learn through our mistakes and succeed at failure, including Henry Ford & Thomas Edison are incompetent - great news, now I've just learned that we're all the same, except of course for the "competent people" who don't make 10,000 mistake and invent a light bulb!

*eish....or as my daughter would say "joooo"*

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## Dave A

Eish... Be gentle on the noobs  :Slap: 

Although I'd hesitate to agree that competence necessarily brings a sense of peace. I've seen perfectly competent people stressed out of their minds.

There's no stress in not giving a damn...

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## wynn

> There's no stress in not giving a damn...


I also like competence but you have to balance your expectations.

Also known as a 'low f^@k it threshold'

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## tec0

I am >>>  :Offtopic:   :Sorry: 

Competence, the quality of being adequately or well qualified physically and intellectually? No... Sorry a piece of paper cannot tell you if someone is qualified physically and intellectually. See today we have thousands of courses and the trick is you can go and do them but if you donât use the information as in everyday you forget. âThis has happened to meâ   

So a course will set you back R8000 for 7 days of training??? A certificate will set you back R16500 and you will only have the basics and 3 weeks behind your name. If you go to job-mail you will see experience requirements range from 2 to 5 years âactiveâ experience... If nobody takes you on then how are you suppose to get that experience? 

Back in 1965 to 1980 âgive or takeâ Eskom used to run programs where a person with standard 6 could get training and on job training and the results was properly trained people that could do their jobs blindfolded. Today you need N3 to get you in and then you need a bunch of other stuff, not to mention that minorities cannot get in at Eskom at all. 

So the mining industry train people but again the minimum is N2 and you must pass or you get kicked out. As an Apprentice you are not allowed overtime, union protection and you MUST pass every subject or face termination. Also you get paid almost nothing... You canât even afford the books you need.  :Confused: 

Honestly the problem is the requirements part of a job. Now again back in 1965 to 1980 âgive or takeâ the military had little requirements and produced some of the best qualified people we have ever seen. Fact our qualifications were so high that other countries had to take note... 

Today those systems are dead because of money... Fact businesses will soon pay massif amounts of money for âimportedâ skill and engineers wile our own people slips down the drain into a world of poverty and crime. In truth what else is left? Nothing... 

If you lower the requirements and facilitate people to grow in your company you will have a loyal employees and you will have competent employees. But the truth is government made this a impossibility.

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Dave A (13-Sep-10)

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## MarieAnnetta

Tec0, what you said is relevant to Competence. You take a person who is not academic, give him the basics and gradually bring him up to speed. He's paid a trainee salary until he qualifies. It's a system that worked for years
 even in Rhodesia - the government-run institutions all had apprenticeships in place so that young non-academic people could enter training without 'O' levels.

If you were interested in computers, but weren't so hot in maths, you could study with the Rhodesia Railways to become a computer engineer. It was a long course because you studied at the technical college for 6 months then worked in the Railway's computer rooms, then back to college. Your college was sponsored by the RR and when you qualified, you worked for the RR for two or three years.

The method produced qualified men and women with solid practical experience who could competently operate in their environments. 

Still on competence, have you read  "A Message To Garcia" by Elbert Hubbard 1899? Google it and read it. When have to instill this message in all our staff and pay attention to it ourselves.

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## tec0

A lesion in words I am sure. Behold the woman/ man that works when the boss is away or at home. Behold the woman/ man that works hard no matter the hour of day. So poetic yet in a way lost. For workers have died at the whim of a foreman braving melted steel burning into skin and bone till 90% of them was nothing more than battered bone his lasts words âyou killed meâ The second worker may have been or may not have been dead on impact we will never know.   

This foreman is to be reinstated his case disappeared. But still there is more than one story for I remember a boy that knew little about the dangers he had to brave. His boss if you will, order him to inspect valves. These where no ordinary valves for the pressure was immense and the temperature excessive. The boy and yes he was just a boy still young did his bossâs bidding and died for it. His skin melted to the bone his flesh burned white by this invisible horror.

Now people will state competence or incompetence, I blame the companies. They had the ability and recourses to make a simple 20 minute introduction video. Those 20 minutes could have saved 3 lives. 

For the letter was indeed delivered without any questions asked. These are just 3 souls that did there bidding without question and for nothing more than a whim. Now I did not mention these happenings to win an argument or to invoke sympathy. 

I wrote this to point that yes loyalty is important for success. I wrote this story to point out that even experience can fail. But above all I wrote this to point out that if Rowan was shot would his sacrifice be noted as it is now?

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## murdock

you got to ask yourself what ever happened to the old railway appy schools and durban electricity training centres etc...i visited my old appy training centre and was rather taken back...it looked like a mortury...no movement...when i finally found someone and asked what happened to the 250 + appys who use to frequent the centre daily...i was told there arent even 250 appys in the entire country at the moment...and we wonder why our service industry has gone to the dogs...(an insult to dogs)...if the goverment doesnt start putting money back into the training centres instead of their new cars and houses and buddies bank accounts...this country will keep going down hill until eventually we will become like all the other african countries in africa...call me a pesimist but quite honestly i cant see it getting any better any time soon.

every single day on the news or headlines in the newspaper there is some goverment official being named and shamed for his dodgy acts...

ever since the new goverment took over things and just deteriated...i dont know how long they can blame apparteheid...but i am sure they will use the race card for as long as they can get away with it...from a mechanical point of view we can be lucky the old goverment built such good power stations...water treatment works and had such a jacked up public work...because if it didnt we would be floating around in our own crap without electricity...and this is a fact...i was gona say i wonder what happened to the millions which where spent on these project...but we all know the answer to that question...just read the newspaper.

i noticed the other day they finally after 3 years cut the grass back on the side of the freeway or should i say from the middle of the freeway so now there are 2 lanes again...problem now is they should have rather left the grass long at least you couldnt see the piles of rubbish and stompies thrown from the pigs out their vehicles.

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## AndyD

> hat happened to the 250 + appys who use to frequent the centre daily...i was told there arent even 250 appys in the entire country at the moment...


When it's fashionable to give across the board salary hikes regardless of ability and productivity the tradesmen who are competent and productive leave for pastures greener. The apprenticeship programs no longer make good financial sense.

If you pay people by their worth then the good guys will stay and train more good guys and so on the cycle goes. This is true across the board from engineers to nurses, from dentists to school teachers. If you don't pay them their worth the next time you take stock there's nothing left but dead wood.

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## adrianh

In a country where nurses and teachers strike & run amok, where school kids toi, toi, refuse to write exams and demand 25% given to them for free, where a policeman "accidentally" shoots a matric pupil dead during a school kid strike because he doesn't realize that bullets ricochet, where 9 kids are killed on the way to a school with no teachers - to be taken to a hospital with no nurses...

...you say the problem is that "people are not being paid their worth" and that is why people are not training appies....

Ooookkk, I think that the South African youth are lazy and stupid and I also think that the majority of adults are lazy and stupid. They want democracy with no responsibility, they want degrees and diplomas with no education, they want housing without paying for services, they want electricity but steal the cables, they want salary increases but less work, they want, they want, they demand....

The country is not training appies because the youth are too good to be trained, they want to walk into a job and earn R15K a month. They want a 51% share in a business that they didn't build and don't understand. How do you teach a man to fish if he wants a golden fishing pole, for you to bait the hook and then pull in the fish for him when it bites (while that same man is peeing in the river and selling the fishing tackle on the sly)

It's very simple, if they don't want to learn then they can stay at home - their parents have earned the democratic right for them to sit on their butts on a street corner and smoke dope rather than going to school and taking responsibility for their own lives.

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## AndyD

> ...you say the problem is that "people are not being paid their worth" and that is why people are not training appies....
> 
> Ooookkk,


Maybe you misunderstood my post or perhaps I worded it ambiguously. I was advocating stopping the ridiculous pay increases across the board and rather paying people according to their productivity and ability.

I'm saying that the competent and productive people are not paid their worth because the incompetent are becoming more overpaid with across the board pay hikes. 

Apprenticeships cost a fortune and are an investment in the apprentices future output after he/she is qualified. If, after qualifying they aren't payed their worth then they pack up and leave with their qualification and experience then no return is seen on that investment. If apprentices are leaving en mass after qualifying then the whole system is unsustainable.




> I think that the South African youth are lazy and stupid and I also think that the majority of adults are lazy and stupid. They want democracy with no responsibility, they want degrees and diplomas with no education, they want housing without paying for services, they want electricity but steal the cables, they want salary increases but less work, they want, they want, they demand....


This is your opinion. I'm sure there's a percentage of the population who fit into every one of those patterns of behavior which you have outlined but lumping all the youth or all adults in one bracket is an inaccurate generalisation.

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## adrianh

> This is your opinion. I'm sure there's a percentage of the population who fit into every one of those patterns of behavior which you have outlined but lumping all the youth or all adults in one bracket is an inaccurate generalisation.


In my experience the generalization holds true for the majority. Only people who are stupid and lazy dance around the streets when they should be teaching, nursing or learning.

I have no sympathy for any of them, if the teachers don't want to teach, and the students don't want to learn, that's fine.

If the young people don't want to go to college and get N1 or N6 and are to lazy to be apprentices, then that's fine too.

Don't blame the companies for the fact that the youth are too lazy to learn.

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## Dave A

> you got to ask yourself what ever happened to the old railway appy schools and durban electricity training centres etc...


Practically, the Training Boards that financed them were dismantled to make way for the SETA system, and apprenticeships were replaced with learnerships, OBE, unit standards, skills course etc. Hindsight shows it wasn't the best of decisions, but there you go - what's done is done (and happily the *sshole who was really the primary cause of this change is no longer in office). We live with the consequences and at least there are signs of change in training systems again, hopefully this time for the better.



> Only people who are stupid and lazy dance around the streets when they should be teaching, nursing or learning.
> 
> I have no sympathy for any of them, if the teachers don't want to teach, and the students don't want to learn, that's fine.
> 
> If the young people don't want to go to college and get N1 or N6 and are to lazy to be apprentices, then that's fine too.
> 
> Don't blame the companies for the fact that the youth are too lazy to learn.


Be careful before you blame those youth (or the teachers and nurses too, come to think of it) either.

I have so many problems with this statement it's hard to know where to begin in a constructive manner. Gonna have to think about it.

For now I'm going to say you have to consider environment and leadership before you get too judgemental. Yes, there are problems, but you have to look below the surface to see what the real problem is, and it certainly isn't stupidity or laziness.

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## Dave A

*Stupidity vs ignorance.*

Stupidity is doing something wrong when you really should have known better.
Ignorance is doing something wrong because you didn't know better.

Stupidity arises from a personal condition.
Ignorance is heavily influenced by circumstance and environment.

To call a person stupid is an insult to that person's intelligence. Intelligence and education are two very different things.

I suggest to call the majority of South Africans stupid when the actual "problem" is the poor foundation of education is grossly insulting and entirely unfair.

Little surprise people take offence - after all, they're not fools.

Laziness I'll tackle tomorrow (unless there are any volunteers) - but here's a thought to chew on (seeing as most of the people on this site seem to have a reasonable work ethic) - 

Where does your work ethic come from?

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## adrianh

Fair enough, but what is the problem then?

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## murdock

andy looking smart with the tie but dave still looks smarter with the bow tie  :Big Grin:

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## AndyD

> Ooookkk, I think that the *South African youth are lazy and stupid* and I also think that the *majority of adults are lazy and stupid.*


Generalisations and stereotypes are not a credible foundation for debating a point.   



> How do you teach a man to fish if he wants a golden fishing pole, for you to bait the hook and then pull in the fish for him when it bites (while that same man is peeing in the river and selling the fishing tackle on the sly)


Humorously packaged generalisations and stereotypes are also not a credible foundation for debating a point.   




> In my experience the generalization holds true for the majority. Only people who are stupid and lazy dance around the streets when they should be teaching, nursing or learning.
> 
> I have no sympathy for any of them, if the teachers don't want to teach, and the students don't want to learn, that's fine.
> 
> If the young people don't want to go to college and get N1 or N6 and are to lazy to be apprentices, then that's fine too.
> 
> Don't blame the companies for the fact that the youth are too lazy to learn.


At no time did I blame the companies. My opinion was.
*If apprentices are leaving en mass after qualifying then the whole system is unsustainable.*

I have to say Adrian that I'm not keen on your posting tone and style. If you want sweeping statements to hold water as an argument or valid point then quote or make a linked citation to reliable or credible sources to back them up. If you don't then they're just empty stereotypes which isn't adding anything constructive and some of which might by seen as downright inflammatory.

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## Dave A

:EEK!: 



> Fair enough, but what is the problem then?


People butting heads for the wrong reasons  :Frown: 

I'm having one helluva day - try not to kill each other before I get back  :Helpsmilie:

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tec0 (16-Sep-10)

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## adrianh

> I have to say Adrian that I'm not keen on your posting tone and style.


And I should care - why? Remember, the majority fought for freedom of speech...the right to wave plackards and toi toi...




> If you want sweeping statements to hold water as an argument or valid point then quote or make a linked citation to reliable or credible sources to back them up.


Good one...but I doubt that you take yourself seriously on this one.




> If you don't then they're just empty stereotypes which isn't adding anything constructive and some of which might by seen as downright inflammatory.


Define "Constructive" - is the word defined as "Something that agrees with AndyD's view"

Well being inflammatory is also fine by me - I'm only following the example of such fine leaders as Julius Malema, Cosatu, Nehawu and lets not forget NUM. Then don't forget the one's who ran around singing "Shoot the Boer"

*Nee wat ou broer, ek is nie gepla nie, my views are what they are, agree with them, don't agree with them, I don't really care one way or another. I'm long past the great happy happy, ra ra of 'The New South Africa"*

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## AndyD

> Well being inflammatory is also fine by me - I'm only following the example of such fine leaders as Julius Malema, Cosatu, Nehawu and lets not forget NUM. Then don't forget the one's who ran around singing "Shoot the Boer"


Wees nie afgunstig op 'n man van geweld en verkies geeneen van sy weÃ« nie.

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## adrianh

Ek lees net die "Flying Spaghetti Monster Commandments" en daar praat hulle net oor "Pastafaria" en glad nie oor slim "out of context quotes"

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## tec0

Right, first let us look at what is really happening. The economy are build on industry both Industrial and commercial. Secondly we cannot deny the fact that massif amounts of money disappear and there is almost no accountability. 

Yes it is true, it is easier to take mass action and demand things that are really a problem between employer and employee. Miss, Missis and Mister Public do not have control over Students, Pay increase or if the people are actually getting paid or not. 

That problem is strictly between Administration, government and teacher student relations. Mass action in its current form targeted Miss, Missis and Mister Public by denying Healthcare, Sanitation, Municipal services and Protection. Thus Miss Missis and Mister Public must now deal with no services. But Miss Missis and Mister Public paid for those services every month?

The question now is reasonability. Is it reasonable to keep the paying Public responsible for everyoneâs mistakes? Is it not true that the Public is the direct target? 

Now motivation comes to mind: Yes you must be grateful for work but R800 a month will not allow for the basics like; Sanitation, Municipal services and Protection. Nor can it contribute to a retirement fund. So not being motivated is probably more relevant then saying people are lazy. Do the math yourself... Fact if your maximum income is R800 you will have big troubles when you turn 65 years of age.

Also consider that an overwhelming number of South Africans cannot afford to live in their own country. 

So it is simply not worth it. So again; what is the problem? The problem is not Miss Missis and Mister Public they pay their taxes, they support government and pay for their services. But what about all that money, literally millions that go missing? 

Can that money not pay for Fabrication facilities, healthcare facilities and training facilities? So yes sometimes it is difficult to imagine that mass action is NOT the answer, it is disruptive but if you consider the limited successes, then one my think it is pointless?

Basically we are dealing with new structures that are failing every aspect of our lives? So perhaps one must consider changing those structures? 

See competence starts with Structure, ability and development. So start with the systems responsible for competence and you will have your change. 

The truth is if you make it impossible for people to survive then you must consider the consequences.     :EEK!:

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## flaker

> Ek lees net die "Flying Spaghetti Monster Commandments" en daar praat hulle net oor "Pastafaria" en glad nie oor slim "out of context quotes"


I'm feeling deprived :Mad: 
can somebody be good enough to interpret these postings

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## AndyD

The gospel of the FSM is available as a free pdf here. http://loose-canon.fsm-consortium.com/the-loose-canon/ .

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flaker (19-Sep-10)

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