# Social Category > South African Politics Forum >  South Africans resident overseas may not vote in 2009 elections

## Dave A

I cannot help but marvel at this. South Africans resident overseas may not vote in next year's elections. However, our convicts *can* vote.

Does anyone see the logic in this? (bonus reputation points on offer for the best explanation  :Big Grin: )

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## Marq

No takers for bonus points..ok......here goes....

The ANC have repeatedly told us that democracy = majority rule and stuff the rest and it would seem by default as we are continually told -  South African = poor black people and rich politicians. 

With this limited logic (is that the right word??) the following can be deduced:-

Convicts represent the majority of the anc and South African - therefore can vote.
Anyone overseas could afford a ticket to get there - therefore rich and probably minority aligned Non South African -  stuff you - therefore no vote.

Or - if you are overseas - you must be in Exile (cause that is the done thing if you want to get into a position later on in life), therefore you do not agree with the current regime in power, therefore you are against us and as such are not South African - therefore no vote for you.

Democracy is a political term used to define your free understanding of what the current regime is ordering you to believe in. :Bananadance:

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## IanF

> Does anyone see the logic in this? (bonus reputation points on offer for the best explanation )


Dave
I am in for a bonus  :Big Grin:  
How about the costs saved of allowing overseas votes could be better spent on: 
Now not being cynical
EducationMoral regenerationetc.

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## Dave A

The big points go to Marq, but credit to Ian for finding an up side angle  :Thumbup: 

In the USA the situation is exactly the opposite - non-resident USA citizens can vote (and are actively encouraged to do so) and convicts don't get the vote. 

I feel this reflects the powers-that-be's mindset as to what exactly constitutes a South African citizen. It would be interesting to see this tested in the Constitutional Court.

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Marq (16-Nov-08)

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## duncan drennan

There is a Facebook group/cause which is trying to motivate people to join and donate money towards making this happen. They highlight these three paragraphs in the Constitution:

19(3)(a) "Every Adult South African Citizen has the right to vote in elections for any legislative body established in terms of the Constitution, and to do so in secret."

21(a) "Everyone has the right to freedom of movement"

21(b) "Everyone has the right to leave the Republic"

Surely a Constitutional challenge on this issue would be successful? I can see some logic in prisoners being able to vote, e.g. political prisoners, or prisoners who are unfairly detained, or treated poorly.

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## Marq

The question regarding citizenship is probably the same around the world.

As soon as you move away from your home turf - you become a persona non grata. We even find it within the country. Just because one moves to Cape Town doesn't make you a Capetonian and they have their subtle ways of letting you know this. :Shoot: 

My wife moved here to SA over 40 years ago - has not been back for over 35 years, even for a visit and has contributed to the communities where she has stayed here. defends the country against all, paid taxes and has plenty to offer. She has no vote and very little rights here - compare this to a 25 year old youngster in Jail who has never had a job. pillaged, raped and murdered his way through his miserable life thus far. Apparently he has more rights. :Slap: 

I moved to Bloemfontein for a two year period in another life time and even supported the Cheetahs while I was there. Perhaps that's a mechanism for determining where and whether you can vote or not.  You have to be a paid up registered member of a recognised rugby/soccer/cricket club. That should sort out where and whether you can vote. After all no one is actually interested in politics itself, just the power trip, retribution and financial gain that you can score out of it.  :Nono: 

Supposedly the 'Independent' Electoral Commission, (currently run by 'the Guvment' - seen by the anc party as one and the same) determines these factors regarding who when and where and how - Independent  :Rofl: 
The current commissioner of the IEC used to be the commissioner of the..... tra la......Human Rights commission. Another dubious Commission where strange decisions are made regarding rights of anybody. No wonder, the criminals have a right to vote. :Headbutt: 

Should we ever get to to the year 2030 - they will look back and say - the late 1900 and early 2000's - oh yes that's the 'human rights' era, when everybody had rights to do whatever they wanted to do to whomever depending on who or what you were and they almost destroyed the human race declaring and enforcing those 'rights'. Thank goodness we now live in the world of 'human whats lefts'. :Crazy:

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## Dave A

> 19(3)(a) "Every Adult South African Citizen has the right to vote in elections for any legislative body established in terms of the Constitution, and to do so in secret."


Bloody ridiculous that anyone has to run to the Constitutional Court to get gov to correctly apply something that clear-cut and unambiguous.



> I can see some logic in prisoners being able to vote, e.g. political prisoners, or prisoners who are unfairly detained, or treated poorly.


That's what pardons are for. The American theory is that if you have been convicted of a criminal offence, you have abused the rights of others and therefor your right to vote is part of the forfeit. 

One of our problems in applying this in SA is that a lot of what would be considered a misdemeanor in the USA is criminalised here.



> After all no one is actually interested in politics itself, just the power trip, retribution and financial gain that you can score out of it.


So painfully true of the "ruling party" at the moment.

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## reuben

Hi there ,my opinion is as follows,[1]to punish the so called non patriots for leaving the country??.[2]those that left most properly would vote against the current party,can they really afford this to happen i think not .[3] whereas the convicts maybe more open to be led around with empty promises vote for us we will look after you only a opinion!!!!!

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## Dave A

Well, the issue is now going to court.



> South African opposition parties want the country's courts to change the electoral Act in a bid to give millions of expatriates the right to vote in upcoming elections. 
> 
> The Democratic Alliance (DA) and Freedom Front Plus are challenging the Act that states only people on business trips, studying abroad or taking part in international sports events can have a special vote.
> 
> "The right to vote is a fundamental right. The denial of the right to vote to the vast majority of South Africans was central to the struggle against apartheid -- a struggle in which thousands of South Africans lost their lives," said DA executive chairperson James Selfe said Monday.
> 
> The party's application is on behalf of Roy Tipper, a South African teaching English in South Korea on contract who plans to return to the country.
> 
> The Homecoming Revolution, which encourages expat South Africans to return home to address the country's skills shortage, estimated that about two million expatriates would be eligible to vote if the Act was amended.
> full story from M&G here

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## duncan drennan

On a side note I heard a brief interview with an international mover mentioning that there are a number of people moving back to SA from overseas. The international job market is not quite what it used to be.

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## Dave A

Well, the verdict is in.



> South Africans abroad should be allowed to vote, the Pretoria High Court ruled on Monday. 
> 
> Handing down judgement, Acting Judge Piet Ebersohn ruled that the current legislation infringed on the rights of South Africans living abroad.
> 
> The court ruled that the electoral Act "limited" the casting of votes to people temporarily living abroad. It referred the judgement to the Constitutional Court for confirmation. 
> 
> The Independent Electoral Commission was also ordered to change its voting procedures so as to allow South Africans living abroad to vote.
> full story from M&G here


The IEC is already making a mountain out of a molehill...



> Pitso said a nod from the Constitutional Court on the ruling would mean the Independent Electoral Commission (IEC) would have to ascertain how many potential voters there were in each country across the globe.
> 
> This is itself would be a "hassle", she said.
> 
> Typically embassies in foreign countries were used for citizens to cast their ballots. The IEC would have to staff voting stations set up at embassies with independent workers. 
> 
> "The staff at the voting stations would have to be independent, therefore no government workers could be used, the IEC would have to send independent workers to each country.
> 
> "This will be an added burden to the taxpayer as it is very expensive to fly them and accommodate the workers ... the number of staff required in each country or city will depend on how many potential voters are in each city," she said.
> full story from M&G here


What is wrong with using civil servants deployed at the embassies, for crying out loud? That's how everyone else does it. If they aren't there to represent and serve *all* the citizens of this country, they shouldn't be there full stop!

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## Dave A

President Kgalema Motlanthe has announced that the date for the general elections will be 22nd April 2009. However, the actual proclomation would be made later so as not to close off the voters roll just yet.

It's a Wednesday. Will it be a public holiday?

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## duncan drennan

> It's a Wednesday. Will it be a public holiday?


Has been in the past, and with the Monday following that being a public holiday (Freedom day), people should start preparing for a 6 day long weekend.

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## reuben

Remember bus loads of zim's and so forth being trucked in to come and support our lovely!democracy,it is quite obvious that our leading party [DE ruler!!] is running scared,cope or any other party as that may is up for the winning,what say yea

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## reuben

But boss it's more work and not more pay ? gravy train get it boss

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## Dave A

Let's hope we don't slide to the vote-rigging level  :Frown: 

Great! Another public holiday in the public holiday season  :Mad: 

Amazing how you look at these things differently when you're footing the bill for paid holidays. If it's got to be a public holiday, why not run it on Freedom Day?

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## reuben

Come on boss it means more work and not more pay ,ye get it Mann ,surely you must understand we cannot allow foreigners to tell us what to do ex south Africans you dig,double talk is the correct way to go, what goes today does not really mean the same tomorrow.

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## Dave A

:Rofl:

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## duncan drennan

> If it's got to be a public holiday, why not run it on Freedom Day?


My thoughts exactly. Here is one to get your head around: if IEC workers man polling booths on a day declared a public holiday for voting do they get double pay, or only if the voting day falls on an already declared official public holiday?  :Wink:

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## Dave A

So the motivation for holding the election on a weekday could be to reduce overtime costs?  :Stick Out Tongue:  They've been *registering* voters on weekends so probably not. I'd assume they're fixed contract workers as opposed to regular employees.

All this talk about how wonderful they are and how they are going to do great things for our economy and then they pull a stunt like this - right in the middle of the week. It's either all lip service or they really just don't get it. Momentum is precious!

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## Dave A

Some interesting perspectives.

First, the scale of the problem:



> Although state employees and students living abroad cast their votes at South African embassies, Pitso said these could not accommodate large numbers of expatriates. Between 600 000 and 1,4-million South Africans are thought to live in London alone.
> 
> The IEC would also have to set up voting stations worldwide and send election officers to each country. "The IEC did not expect to cater for two million expats when they received their budget," Pitso said.
> 
> The commission would also have to cater for the printing and transporting of ballot papers to ensure that ballots are counted in time for the IEC to announce the election results within seven days.


Then we have the blame game:



> "It's fair that South Africans overseas should be allowed to vote. My argument is simply that the [DA and Freedom Front Plus] should not have waited until so close to elections to contest this law." _(Pitso)_


 :Hmmm: 



> All South Africans living abroad could vote in the 1994 elections, but the legislation was subsequently amended.
> 
> Mulder said that opposition parties have been trying since 2003 to have the Act amended. After countless delays and unmet promises by the ANC, "all that was left was to go to court".


And will it really be too much extra effort?



> FF+ leader Pieter Mulder dismissed claims that the exercise would be too costly and time-consuming for the IEC to arrange.
> 
> "The infrastructure for voting is already in place at our embassies and ballot papers are sent across without any problems during each election. 
> 
> "It's just a matter of adding more resources to cater for more voters. I don't believe this will cost as much as experts claim it will," Mulder said. 
> 
> He added: "Interested citizens will have to approach the embassy and register â¦ this will create a filter, and there'll certainly be less than two million expats casting their vote."
> 
> Mulder suggested the commission should consider implementing an electronic voting system similar to that used in the United States.
> extracts from M&G article here


I wonder what the vote split was when the Electoral Act was amended?
And surely someone should be reviewing legislation *as it is generated* to ensure it complies with the Constitution?

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## duncan drennan

> And surely someone should be reviewing legislation *as it is generated* to ensure it complies with the Constitution?


Isn't that parliament's and ultimately the president's role? If it is unconstitutional then any citizen can challenge it in the Con Court, can't they?

The registration issue is now null and void anyway - the voting day has been declared and no new registrations are allowed after that. The court application to have the date scrapped was thrown out. So currently, anyone who is out of the country and registered can vote (everyone who has voted since 1994). Anyone who turned 18 in the last five years and is out of the country cannot registered, and cannot vote.

Passing thought...I wonder if the court challenges were left late to try to force the voting to happen later in the year and closer to other court dates...

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## Dave A

> If it is unconstitutional then any citizen can challenge it in the Con Court, can't they?


If they are prepared to commit to the financial cost thereof. 

Clearly existing procedures have failed to stop unconstitutional legislation from getting through. This suggests the need for an independent legal standing committee to be put in place that scrutinises each piece of legislation that is put through in future.



> The registration issue is now null and void anyway - the voting day has been declared and no new registrations are allowed after that. The court application to have the date scrapped was thrown out.


It was dismissed based on the President's undertaking to delay proclamation. And then the President made the proclamation the next day!

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## I Robot

NCOP can do more to monitor implementation of laws, says                            Chairperson     

19 March 2009 

The Chairperson of the National Council of Provinces Mr Mninwa Mahlangu, MP, believes the NCOP has not done enough to monitor the implementation of laws passed by Parliament. 

Mr Mahlangu said there was a serious lack of information on how the electorate was benefiting from the laws that Parliament passed. He said the NCOP could play a huge role in this regard through primarily focussing on monitoring the implementation of section 76 legislation (Bills that affect the provinces) 

Addressing the media on Wednesday night in Cape Town, the Chairperson said Parliament should dedicate more resources to monitor the impact of the laws. 

“We seem to have lagged behind in overseeing the implementation of the laws that we have passed. The issue of capacity is a contributing factor in this regard,” said Mr Mahlangu. 

Oversight could be done in many ways, including putting questions to the executive, site visits and public meetings (Taking Parliament to the People), he said. 

“Through outreach programmes we are able to pay attention to key service delivery areas.” 

Mr Mahlangu said another challenge facing the NCOP was the capacity to ensure that legislation passed in the house was able to pass muster constitutionally. He said it was important for Parliament to satisfy itself that the legislation conformed to the Constitution in all respects. 

“Parliament should develop capacity and set up mechanisms to ensure that legislation that is brought before or passed by the houses is of sound quality constitutionally,” said Mr Mahlangu. 

This, he said, could include a mechanism to assist Presiding Officers to scrutinise legislation, in order to satisfy themselves, before such legislation was finalised or sent to the President for assent.

More...

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## Dave A

I thought this thread was appropriate for this little gem from government.

They're only thinking of this sort of stuff now?  :EEK!:

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