# Social Category > General Chat Forum >  The great picture of our lives

## Dave A

The great picture of our lives is shaped less by the big decisions and more by the horde of little, seemingly insignificant decisions we make along the way.

Agree or disagree?

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## Justloadit

Every decision we make, alters the path we follow

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## ians

You only need to make one small mistake to impact the impression people have about you. I always try and tell youngsters to live by a set of moral standards, no matter what happens,even if you have a couple too many captains and coke, it is important not to loose focus, you do one small bad thing and people will always remember you for the one little bad thing you did rather than all the good you have done. So the answer to your question yes i agree, its the little decisions. 

Some of the moral standards i live by: 
Rule no. 1...Never sleep with your mates girlfriends or wives, even if they break up.
Always pay back debts, especially to friends even if it is only R10
very important...never lie, not even little insignificant ones they will always come back and bite you.
never hit a women, unless she hits you first.
There are many more, but i think these 4 are the most important.

This thread could get interesting  :Wink:

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## Mike C

I also agree - our lives today are a result of all the decisions made, both big and small ... and both concious and unconscious.  The "unconscious" decisions are probably what we regard as the smaller decisions which emanate from our belief system (not religious belief) - what we believe about life, about money, about friendship, etc

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## adrianh

The problem is that we only know in hindsight which were the pivotal decisions.

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## Citizen X

> The great picture of our lives is shaped less by the big decisions and more by the horde of little, seemingly insignificant decisions we make along the way.
> 
> Agree or disagree?


A very good morning to you Dave!

Whilst your question defies a short answer, I'll nonetheless try!The small decisions really do count! This is one for the philosophers though! If life is a chess problem, then philosophy does not provide a solution. If life is an art, philosophers are not the artists nor do they confer a technique for art. As to the claim that philosophy prepares one for this business of life, that claim remains largely unfounded!
My pal, Karl Marx, stated in 1845, ‘The philosophers have only interpreted the world in various ways, the point is however to change it” Making small decisions is actual change!
Small decisions do manifest in eventual change. I can’t help but agree with Adrian when he postulates that the benefit of retrospect gives invaluable insight into where we went astray, what we should have done as opposed to what we have done(For me this is a great many regrets, “too much wine, too much song, I wonder why I went wrong,’). Philosophy will remain a science that includes 3 branches: physics, ethics and logic.
The logical discourse that ‘The great picture of our lives is shaped less by the big decisions and more by the horde of little, seemingly insignificant decisions we make along the way,’ is actually sound

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## Blurock

I have to agree with Dave. Although I see it a little different. The choices we make in life determine who we are and whether we will be successful or not.

The big decisions are the ones that should set our goals. You have to decide whether you want to study and equip yourself for the job market, or just hope that something comes along. Do you work for yourself or for a boss? Which industry? Where do you want to stay? Do you want to marry and have children? 

The small decisions are the ones that can sink your future and derail your lifetime goals and ambitions; 
Do I go for a drink with my pals in stead of studying? Do I get drunk and wreck the place? Do I drink and drive and in the process cause an accident? Do I procrastinate on that big order and risk losing it? Do I give shoddy service because I am just too lazy for work today?

The small foxes are the ones that ruin the vineyard... :Yawn:

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## Citizen X

> I have to agree with Dave. Although I see it a little different. The choices we make in life determine who we are and whether we will be successful or not.
> 
> The big decisions are the ones that should set our goals. You have to decide whether you want to study and equip yourself for the job market, or just hope that something comes along. Do you work for yourself or for a boss? Which industry? Where do you want to stay? Do you want to marry and have children? 
> 
> The small decisions are the ones that can sink your future and derail your lifetime goals and ambitions; 
> Do I go for a drink with my pals in stead of studying? Do I get drunk and wreck the place? Do I drink and drive and in the process cause an accident? Do I procrastinate on that big order and risk losing it? Do I give shoddy service because I am just too lazy for work today?
> 
> The small foxes are the ones that ruin the vineyard...


"Just" much the same like the Jessica de Santos debacle, she made a seemingly small decision(in her mind) that had far reaching consequences!

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## Blurock

> "Just" much the same like the Jessica de Santos debacle, she made a seemingly small decision(in her mind) that had far reaching consequences!


I do not think the mind was engaged when she made that statement, only the mouth.  :Whistling:

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## adrianh

Define big vs small descision. 

A person can decide to become a plumber or an electrician ? big descision
A person decides to have a cup of coffee at a coffee shop on the way home and becomes paralized in an accident ? small decision

You sit at the coffee shop and recognize somebody important and strike up a conversation - no outcome...small descision? ...you become world famous and makes lots of money...big descision?

The only really important criteria is whether the descision had a pivotal effect on your life.

You drink and drive -- 
no accident - not pivotal 
huge accident and you kill 5 people - pivotal

...and as I said before, there is simply no way of knowing which descisions (big, small, on a whim) will have a pivotal effect on your life. aka Jessica de Santos - one childish remark made in the wrong ear and her career is is tatters.

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## ians

Seems twitter is also turning some people into twits, small tweet big oooops.

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## Citizen X

> Define big vs small descision. 
> 
> A person can decide to become a plumber or an electrician ? big descision
> A person decides to have a cup of coffee at a coffee shop on the way home and becomes paralized in an accident ? small decision
> 
> You sit at the coffee shop and recognize somebody important and strike up a conversation - no outcome...small descision? ...you become world famous and makes lots of money...big descision?
> 
> The only really important criteria is whether the descision had a pivotal effect on your life.
> 
> ...


Suppose it's relative then to who you are and what consequence the decision had on your life. Adrian, you've demonstrated right here the very promblem of logical discourse and philosophy in general. Incidentally, this very problem was apparent centuries ago.. What we actually engaging in here is pure philosophizing, a skill! A study of philosophy i.e. when Plaoto was born, which girlfirend he had, what he said etc will never give you this ability, that everyone who contributed to this thread have demonstrated ..an ability to philosophize.

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## adrianh

Interesting, but if that is the case then economists are no more than philosophers who explain the past....and have ZERO ability to predict the future. 

If a woman marries 5 times and each ends in divorce does it mean that the 6th will too?
If a company fails to launch a product 5 times will it also fail the 6th time?

The economist would say "Well possibly" and if it is a success then the economist would say that he had correctly predicted the outcome.

So this then begs the question - are those who have successful lives simply lucky due to small desicions counting up to great furtune?
What about those who are absolutely brilliant but never got an oppertunity to utilize their skills - are they simply unlucky?
What about karma? Do you get out what you put in? if so then howcome some horrible people become rich and famous and some wonerful people die in obsure poverty?
What about religion? If you pray for a job and you get it - did your diety help you out? - if you don't get a job is it then your diety's plan for you to go through life poor?

My view is this: Your cards are dealt all the time, good, bad, indifferent. It is up to you to make the best possible decisions at each descision point given the information that you have at hand...better than that you cannot do! If it work out great, if it doesn't, no problem, a good card will come up again soonr or later.

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## Citizen X

> Interesting, *but if that is the case then economists are no more than philosophers who explain the past....and have ZERO ability to predict the future. 
> *
> _If a woman marries 5 times and each ends in divorce does it mean that the 6th will too?
> _If a company fails to launch a product 5 times will it also fail the 6th time?
> 
> The economist would say *"Well possibly"* and if it is a success then the economist would say that he had correctly predicted the outcome.
> 
> *So this then begs the question* - are those who have successful lives simply lucky due to small desicions counting up to great furtune?
> What about those who are absolutely brilliant but never got an oppertunity to utilize their skills - are they simply unlucky?
> ...



_Adrian, based on what you say_, one would not be wrong to classify you under one of the five categories of philosophical ethics names Rules Governed Ethics. Immanuel Kant is one of the most famous exponents of rule governed ethics *Kant argues that philosophical ethics is the system of the ends of pure practical reason*.All rational knowledge is either material and concerned with the form of understanding and of reason themselves and with the universal rules of thought in general without regard to differences of its objects. Formal philosophy is called logic.[1]
*So it’s logical discourse you engaged in! Let me show you, Adrian, how exactly right you actually are in whatever you have just said!*
The metaphysician cannot provide an agreed and demonstrably correct answer to questions as to how the universe started. The morals of the ethical philosopher are not of necessity superior of that of the grass roots man. Dr Josef Megele had both a medical degree and a doctorate in philosophy, yet history tells us that when they ran out of gas to kill the Jewish kids on one bitter cold day, he ordered that these kids be thrown live into the open flames of those ovens! He studied philosophy and in particular both ethics and morality extensively at one of the best known universities of its day, yet he was a monster of a man.
All reasoning is not logic and all logical is not reasoning. A professor of anatomy understands all aspects of the limbs, he can break it down for you molecule by molecule, he understands how the limbs function and perhaps more importantly what, both natural and unnatural can be used to increase their performance But this does not mean that he will be able to become the next 100m Olympics athlete YET you may get a man from the informal settlement, he may genuinely believe that his legs only consist of blood and of nothing further, he may have never even entered a school let alone sat in a grade 1 class BUT he runs like lighting and wins the 100m Olympics race. So it was not his understanding of the limbs or what they comprise that made him excel. Go figure..

So here we are back to our quandary, right back to where we started but still we exceed brilliantly as far as philosophizing is concerned, now even a university student with a degree in philosophy may be able to rattle like a parrot as to when Plato was born, what he ate, who his girlfriend was and what he said, but to do just what we have so easily done in this thread, I won’t place any bets on that college kid!
 :No: 








[1] James. W Ellington. Immanuel Kant. Ethical Philosophy.Hacket Publishing Company Inc. 1994. Page 1 para 387

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tec0 (06-Oct-12)

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## tec0

Choice... No matter it size and or impact, regardless of the alternative there is no such thing as choice. The illusion is real enough but the outcome will always be the same. Take a roulette wheel for example. 

If you take a number and move your eye across to the other number on the opposite side you will find that it doesnt line up. For example the zero will line up to the five and the ten.  So basically to cover both the five and the ten you need to place two bets insuring that you will lose one bet if not both. 

Then you need to look at the spinning of the ball its momentum is it clockwise or anticlockwise and is there any consistency numbers that repeat Now in most cases seven have a tendency to repeat alongside thirty-six (depending on the dealer) with a twenty-seven percent interval within thirty minutes. That means you have possibility to see a seven within eight point one minutes of play alongside thirty-six. 

But then something happens an inconsistency in the wrist and or finger pressure will give a random red black or green this messes with the math and is the only reason why this part of the game is still human. This brings your chances down to an average of one point one, one percent (despite the official documentation) towards each spin and you will lose and or win simply by accident. But it is not an accident now is it... 

No... Mechanical theory doesnt allow for accidents only poor observations and you need to be fast because you will find that they change the dealers systematically along with the mass of the ball and so on... This introduces a constant variable. 

Now to point of all of this is the outcome.... Despite documentation stays the same. The house always wins. Therein my case and point, it doesnt matter what you do in life you will lose when you lose and win when you win. Everything else is just a variable of if and when you win and or lose but the result will remain the same. 

Lets pretend that a member goes ok I will disproof your theory and give me R50k large right then and there. This will go towards my winning probability. Second action is no action and the situation remains unchanged and or someone bad mouths me and I lose a customer and that goes towards my losing probability... My outcome be it ill health a accident or violent departure will remain unchanged it is written in stone because the rule of mechanical theory remains regardless.

We are just gears running in a machine called life.

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## Dave A

Blurock (post 7), you and I are *very* much on the same page. That's exactly what I was thinking when I made the statement.

I was comparing two lives over the last ten years. 
Same starting point. Same goals. Very different outcomes. 
And the main difference I could see was in the minutae of the daily diciplines.

What I was struggling to wrap my mind around was how could this be possible when so much importance (and thought) is attached to the "big" decisions, so little is said about the overall cumulative significance of all the little decisions along the way that we don't give much thought to - that we often leave to habit to decide for us.

I think Adrian (post 10 in particular) is onto something as to why - the size of the decision (as perceived in advance) does not necessarily correlate with the significance of the outcome.

Jim Collins in Great By Choice concludes that luck (both good and bad) comes to everyone. What differs is what we make of it - our return on luck. If you're doing the right things, when good luck comes along, you get a great return. When you're not doing the right things, you don't get the same return.

At tec0 - With roulette the house has a 2 in 37 point advantage over the gambler when it comes to picking a number. The house has a 1 in 37 advantage over the gambler when you play black or red. Which game should you be playing?

However, I suggest you're focusing on the wrong decision to make (and perhaps that's why you keep losing the game). The line between winning and losing over the long haul is a lot thinner than most people think, but the difference in results between being on the wrong or right side of that line is huge. 

If we stick to your analogy of roulette, I suggest the choice options in life is not just which number or colour to pick; you first should choose whether you're going to be the gambler or the house.

Get the odds stacked on your side.
Good habits.
Good discipline.

It looks like it's a lot more important than most people give credit for.

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## adrianh

The real issue is this: It is believed that one can influence the quality of the cards that you are dealt by your outlook on life. It is said that if one has a negative outlook then you are dealt negative cards and if you have positive outlook then the cards will be good. Is this possible or are we simply colouring our own perceptions. A man may become paralized and be eternally grateful for the event which changed his life or a person may win R10million and be unhappy because it ruined his life. 

So where does this leave us. We live our lives on the balance of probabilities, maybe you get hit by a car and maybe you don't, maybe you live till you're 80 or maybe you don't...what is the answer... To me the answer is actually quite simple, you make certain that you value every moment of every day.

...or as Robert Heinlein's "Valentine Michael Smith"  in Stranger From a Strange Land would say: "You Grok it"...

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## Justloadit

> The real issue is this: It is believed that one can influence the quality of the cards that you are dealt by your outlook on life. It is said that if one has a negative outlook then you are dealt negative cards and if you have positive outlook then the cards will be good. Is this possible or are we simply colouring our own perceptions.


I think your current frame of mind/attitude is what governs the decision you are going to take.
If you are in a negative mode, there is no ways that you will be able to identify an opportunity, you will only look and see any negative cards presented to you an thus you will continue on the negative path, however, as soon as you change and start getting a positive attitude, you then there seems to be a opportunity at every turn, and you appear to make better decisions.

Have you not noticed how negative people seem to attract 'bad luck', and positive people seem to always be 'lucky', it is based on the persons attitude and what opportunities are followed.

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## tec0

Consider life as a game.  Then consider that everything you are and do comes down to timing. Both habits and discipline comes down to finishing on time, being on time and to study to be prepared on time. Being able to calculate risk and reward within the right moment to insure success and or avoid failure. 

Every situation is a simple variable I will work hard to impress my boss and I will slack off to spite my boss. But then there is always an uncontrollable factor my boss dont like  me even if I do 200% than what is expected of me options; accept it and ignore it till such a time where you no longer can ignore it. Perhaps the time is right to start your own thing? 

What changed? Mathematically the odds are against us from the start. It always was as the rule of a monitory system someone must lose for someone to win.  The allocation of wealth is directly link to an ability within a time frame. Example; America was large once now the east will soon be a supper power if not already.  What changed? 

Outsourcing, poor stock performance and general cost... Timing.... You  can actually see the gears rotate. Now your habits and discipline will help you identify opportunities better yes there is no denying this. That said timing is everything, when do you invest, start a business when do you sell your investments close your business? 

Simple answer when the maximum wealth was accumulated you always cut your losses. If you don't then things starts to resemble a Roulette wheel then it is only a matter of time before you lose.  

So be ready and always think it over... But never waste time, for every minute wasted is an opportunity lost.

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## Citizen X

> Choice... No matter it size and or impact, regardless of the alternative there is no such thing as choice. The illusion is real enough but the outcome will always be the same. Take a roulette wheel for example. 
> 
> 
> We are just gears running in a machine called life.


I recently visited a friend. I'm extremely courteous and respectful to all who are in that home. Even the dogs like me1 In fact, this friend’s dog, ‘Rexy,’ actually starts barking and moaning before I even reach the door. Their domestic employee Mariam had the following to say, ‘Vanash, I earn R1200 per month, my first born is in grade 12, she wants to go to university, I don’t have the money, I don’t know what to do, My husband is dead. My second born is in grade 8, my 3rd born is in grade 6 and my first born is in grade 4. What must I tell my child when she asks me about University?” 
I honestly didn’t know how to respond to her! I realized that a great many of our fellow South Africans hold positions such as domestic employee and farm assistant not by choice but rather because they have no choice. I don’t think any kid says, one day I want to be a domestic employee!
Money plays a big role in the choices we make!
But, we all start the race together. We won’t all finish the race together. There was a recent article about a prisoner who obtained his LLB in prison and obtained more than 10 distinctions..

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## adrianh

@JustloadIt - If nothig changes except your attitute then it means that one can in essence create your own good luck if you are open to accepting oppertunities that come your way.




> Mathematically the odds are against us from the start.


@tec0 - your cup is always half empty because you expect the universe to fill it for you. My cup is always at least half full because I fill it myself through the descisions I make. Sometimes I win and sometimes I lose, but I am ultimately responsible for the way i perceive and react to the card that I dealt.

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## Justloadit

> @JustloadIt - If nothig changes except your attitute then it means that one can in essence create your own good luck if you are open to accepting oppertunities that come your way.


Adrian,

Absolutely, I have noticed this myself. There some days which are crappy, and it just seems everything you touch turns to sh!t, and simply put, it feels as this, simply because you focus on the things that go wrong, and then use the negative evaluation " You see, everything is going wrong!", but in essence, it is that for that particular day, week, month, year, decade, you simply are highlighting the negative. The moment you can turn your attitude around, and look at the positive things, by focusing on the positive things, it seems that all is going well. Just thin about it, the fact you woke up and your loved one is lying next to you is a good thing, the fact you got out of bed is a good thing, the fact that you enjoyed your first cuppa in the morning is a good thing, the fact the sun is shinning outside is a good thing, the fact i can year the birds singing outside is a good thing, the fact i jumped into my car and started is a good thing, and so on. There are so many positive things happening i our lives that we tend to forget that they even happen.

Once you start accepting all the little positives, you then have the right frame of mind to tackle the world, and all of a sudden, every call, every encounter becomes an opportunity. One must be cautious off course and not simply dive in now, but evaluate the situations.

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## Blurock

> Jim Collins in Great By Choice concludes that luck (both good and bad) comes to everyone. What differs is what we make of it - our return on luck. If you're doing the right things, when good luck comes along, you get a great return. When you're not doing the right things, you don't get the same return.
> 
> Get the odds stacked on your side.
> Good habits.
> Good discipline.
> 
> It looks like it's a lot more important than most people give credit for.


I fully agree. I have also seen another formula; Focus X Knowledge X Behaviour = Success. 

The more disciplined people are the more successful ones. Gary player once replied to a comment on how lucky he was in golf. He said that the more he practised, the luckier he became. It takes habit forming discipline and determination to keep on practising while your mates go for a beer.

It seems as if some of us are still struggling with the term "decisions". Lets use the word choices then. To go and have a coffee at a coffee shop is not a life changing decision or choice. It is not the coffee that causes the accident. That could have been caused by not being observant, not having your brakes checked, not maintaining a safe following distance or a multiple other causes.

I think what Dave refers to here is the life choices we make. We make big choices in which direction we want our lives to go, but then we do not support those big choices with good discipline and habits. 

You will never to cross the ocean if you do not plug the holes in your boat.

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## Citizen X

> I fully agree. I have also seen another formula; Focus X Knowledge X Behaviour = Success. 
> 
> You will never to cross the ocean if you do not plug the holes in your boat.


The only place you'll find success before work is in the English dictionary! Nothing X Nothing is still nothing 0 X 0 = 0

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## adrianh

@vanash




> The only place you'll find success before work is in the English dictionary! Nothing X Nothing is still nothing 0 X 0 = 0


You are wrong. Given probability theory some will have lots of good luck and be successful without working hard, some will have terrible luck and get nowhere.

We have to accept that some people simply seem to be luckier than others. (pure probability) This does not mean that one shouldn't work hard at your own destiny, it means that you cannot use the destinies of other to measure your own. If Johnny casts a die 6 times and get 6 in a row, what are the chances of you getting a 6 on the next throw...1 out of 6 which means that your luck is not affected by what went before.

@justloadit - its all in your frame of mind. That's the good thing about working for yourself, especially from home, if I'm in a bad frame of mind I can choose not to answer the phone and do whatever it takes to change that mindset. But when you are an employee you have to suck it up and deal not only with your own frame of mind but those of others too. My frame of mind can swing dramatically and extremely fast...maybe that is why I never fitted into the...chug along like a robot mindless mindsets within the corporate world. Corporates don't like people who swing too far too quickly because we are too unpredictable.

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## Blurock

> The only place you'll find success before work is in the English dictionary! Nothing X Nothing is still nothing 0 X 0 = 0


Yes, input determines output. There are people who win the lotto etc, but that is not sustainable. It is a once off and easy come, easy go. Same applies to inheritance. I've seen many of those.

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## Citizen X

> Yes, input determines output. There are people who win the lotto etc, but that is not sustainable. It is a once off and easy come, easy go. Same applies to inheritance. I've seen many of those.


Sustainable transformation..I conceed!

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## Blurock

How often do we start our daily activities, but never achieve our daily goals because we get sidelined by trivial matters. 

The following attachment illustrates how we can allow trivial things to negatively impact our lives. I hope I am not infringing on any copy rights, but it was too good not to pass on.  :Embarrassment: 

Garbage.doc

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## ians

Good one Blurock, i agree and guilty of carrying garbage, getting better at it as i get older, learning slowly not to allow silly things to spoil my day.  

Watching a young lady being beaten continuously while driving along the N3 could have affected my day on Saturday, do i pull the vehicle over and stop the Ahole, or do i just mind my own bussiness and look the other way, i chose to look the other way, if she didnt like what he was doing she must report him for assault. Some people will say i should have done something about it, some women would say it is better i just leave them, other wise i make it worse for her because once i leave, he hits her even harder. From experience, i did the right thing, you beat the living daylights out of the boyfriend and the women starts beating you because you are interfering, or you beat the living dailights out of the 2 guys hitting a women you find out later she is a women of pleasure and get arrested because they are plain clothes police officers. Bye the way it is very unpleasant sitting in a police cell and wasting time in court.

People talk about the little things and big things which alter our path in life, all of them affect our lives in one way or another bussiness or pleasure. Do i get up in the morning and go for a walk? Do i eat fruit for breakfast or coffe, in same way or another it is going to affect the outcome of your life. Not just the R2 million  contract you sign. One thing i have learnt about life is no matter how good you are at something, be it bussiness or pleasure, if you are not a peoples person, you will not succeed as well as a person who is a peoples person, especially if you require sponsorship or trying to sign a deal or a contract. You may say bulldust, i see it everyday. 

Some people might think the little things they do in their personal life do affect the outcome of their bussiness, think again.

Just to add, i have woken up one morning and thought, today is going to be a great day, walked though the kitchen to my office, caught the corner of the top cupboard which was left slightly open just above the my eye, it knocked me to the floor and i couldnt stop the bleeding, that was just the start to the day, it got a whole lot worse as the day progressed. 

I had dreams of going and living in the USA, made enough money to keep me going for a while, was going to stop in the UK for a year or 2, i was about to leave had a few thing to finalise here in SA, while finalising those few things had a motor vehicle accidents which changed my entire life, i lost everything, savings, dignity, motor vehicles you name it, ended up with 9 judgements and out on the street phiysically disable. That small silly little decision that day to race with the porsche could have been one of the worse i have ever made, at the time it just felt so good.

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Blurock (08-Oct-12)

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## adrianh

> That small silly little decision that day to race with the porsche could have been one of the worse i have ever made, at the time it just felt so good.


Yes, but you could also have been hit by somebody else racing that day. The point is this: Don't beat yourself up, $h1t happens, the important thing is how we deal with it.

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## Blurock

One lesson that I have learnt is to stop being the victim. 
Stop being the loser, stop being the orphan, stop being the poor boy, stop being bullied or victimised. A negative self esteem eats away at your confidence and requires you to look for a crutch in life. Someone to hide behind or to fight your battles for you. 

Once I overcome that, I grew in confidence and could excel in the things that I enjoyed. I now see a problem for what it is and not as a conspiracy of the universe against me. :Wink:

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## tec0

> I honestly didnt know how to respond to her!


She is not empowered because the people that are in control spend billions on themselves. They live in a luxury that is almost fictional. Why because those who are in power are in power by those who empowered them. 

It is not my fault that her children cant continue to study nor is it yours. My simple reaction would be. I am so sorry to hear about your troubles I really am sincerely sorry. But the only way you can perhaps change things is if you empower someone to change them for you. That is the truth and it is what it is. 

Here is a second truth; an event any event inevitably happens because the future is written in stone. Not even a raindrop is random.... There are no accidents, choices or a alternative outcome. Everything is by design. 

We will live by this design we will die by this design. The choices you made was already made. Lets say you want to proof me wrong and take another road to your home. Was that a choice? You could have taken the same road to your home? 

The fact remained you did it to proof me wrong thus it wasnt a choice you where manipulated to take an alternative road to your home. Or you where manipulated by other factors to take the same road home. 

There is no such thing as choice.

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## wynn

If a butterfly flaps it wings in Berlize will it cause a hurricane in Haiti?

The winning formula when gambling in a casino besides keeping your money in your pocket is;-
1   Have a fixed starting sum, a fixed winning target, a fixed loosing limit and a fixed time.
2   win loose or draw, time is up, walk away. winning target achieved, walk away. loosing limit reached, walk away
3   when playing black jack never stand under fourteen, always stand over fourteen.
     when playing roulette only play twos&threes, three columns, three twelves (top, middle, bottom) twos red&black odds&evens

In life it is important to have a sense of humor, so you can laugh in the face of bad luck, then you can laugh when you have good luck.

In business there is no luck, just good and bad opportunities, learn to distinguish the difference.

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## adrianh

> In business there is no luck, just good and bad opportunities, learn to distinguish the difference.


I beg to differ, being in the right place at the right time is pure LUCK. 

Many devices were invented that were said to be before their time. Nitro Cellulose was discovered purely by chance. Many great ventures began with a chance meeting.

Yes of course there is a place for hard work, but never discount the ever present finger of lady luck.

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## vieome

> She is not empowered because the people that are in control spend billions on themselves. They live in a luxury that is almost fictional. Why because those who are in power are in power by those who empowered them. 
> 
> It is not my fault that her children can’t continue to study nor is it yours. My simple reaction would be. “I am so sorry to hear about your troubles I really am sincerely sorry. But the only way you can perhaps change things is if you empower someone to change them for you.” That is the truth and it is what it is. 
> 
> Here is a second truth; an event any event inevitably happens because the future is written in stone. Not even a raindrop is random.... There are no accidents, choices or a alternative outcome. Everything is by design. 
> 
> We will live by this design we will die by this design. The choices you made was already made. Let’s say you want to proof me wrong and take another road to your home. Was that a choice? You could have taken the same road to your home? 
> 
> The fact remained you did it to proof me wrong thus it wasn’t a choice you where manipulated to take an alternative road to your home. Or you where manipulated by other factors to take the same road home. 
> ...


 I agree with a lot of your post but the idea that there is no choice is very difficult getting my noodle around. On the one hand that is like saying that human beings are nothing more then programs of a grand designer. I think there is choice, but the choices we make which we think are our own are nothing more then illusions. We make choices but we never understand why we made the choice. So even saying the choices we made are already made still implies that there is choice. And the idea of being manipulated to take a different route home implies that the manipulator made the choice for you, and had a choice in doing so.

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tec0 (08-Oct-12)

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## tec0

> I agree with a lot of your post but the idea that there is no choice is very difficult getting my noodle around. On the one hand that is like saying that human beings are nothing more then programs of a grand designer. I think there is choice, but the choices we make which we think are our own are nothing more then illusions. We make choices but we never understand why we made the choice. So even saying the choices we made are already made still implies that there is choice. And the idea of being manipulated to take a different route home implies that the manipulator made the choice for you, and had a choice in doing so.


Now I am going to microwave that noodle of yours  :Devil2: 

Fact or fiction, the only reason you have a choice "or you think you do" is because the situation exist to make the choice. So what created the situation? More importantly if the situation didn't exist would you still need to make a choice? 

A situation is an accumulation of events that now needs to be concluded. So your choice will conclude the standing situation. But only the correct action will satisfy the situation otherwise it continues to accumulate until it is correctly concluded.


Welcome to the real Matrix  :Cool:  

so will that be the red jellybean or the blue jellybean?

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vieome (08-Oct-12)

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## vieome

> Now I am going to microwave that noodle of yours 
> 
> Fact or fiction, the only reason you have a choice "or you think you do" is because the situation exist to make the choice. So what created the situation? More importantly if the situation didn't exist would you still need to make a choice? 
> 
> A situation is an accumulation of events that now needs to be concluded. So your choice will conclude the standing situation. But only the correct action will satisfy the situation otherwise it continues to accumulate until it is correctly concluded.


That still leaves me with making a choice between the correct action or incorrect action. 




> so will that be the red jellybean or the blue jellybean?


 If you look closer at this question that is my point that some choices are illusions, because in the choice between the red and the blue is a third choice. That is 'NO Jellybeans for me"

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tec0 (09-Oct-12)

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## tec0

> That still leaves me with making a choice between the correct action or incorrect action.


Therein is the illusion of choice.  :Wink:  The situation demands to be resolved. By not resolving it you become part of the accumulation process and the situation will reappear over and over again until you or someone else resolves it. “Meaning taking the action required by the situation nothing more and nothing less”

Example; giving the right answer to a mathematical problem.

By not making a choice you are just prolonging the inevitable...

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vieome (09-Oct-12)

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## vieome

I think you might be getting confused between the idea of free will and destiny. On the one hand what you are saying is there is no choice, and on the other that we have to make choices to reach a given destiny that is pre-determined. That still means that there is choice but the choice is made for us. If you argue that choices are not important because no matter which route you take you still going to get home, that I can understand. Determinism




> The situation demands to be resolved.


 The situation demands choices are made that will resolve the situation, there is no getting around the idea of choices, and all one can argue is are the choices free or are they not. 

If you ask some one to choose a number from 1 to(2) 4 and respond as fast as they can they will choose 3 , so while they believe they made a concious choice the brain simply chooses the missing number 3, that leaves the concious self with the illusion of choice, but the brain making the choice.

So lets say that two peoples given destiny is riches, so no matter what choices they make they will get there. One chooses corruption, and one follows the normal route.

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## tec0

There is no right or wrong actually. You believe in choice I believe in mathematical certainty order within the chaos. Realising that every action has a reaction every situation is created by necessity. Every solution a precisely executed formula. 

You will be manipulated into solving the situation you think it is choice for me it is just a program.

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## adrianh

> You will be manipulated into solving the situation you think it is choice for me it is just a program.


So why bother to execute the program, why not just get stoned and die a happy life.

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tec0 (09-Oct-12)

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## vieome

> There is no right or wrong actually. You believe in choice I believe in mathematical certainty order within the chaos. Realising that every action has a reaction every situation is created by necessity. Every solution a precisely executed formula. 
> 
> You will be manipulated into solving the situation you think it is choice for me it is just a program.


 I understand where you coming from the law of large numbers but even that does not remove choice. Every action has a reaction, means someone got to make a choice of which action should be taken.  

If it is just a program who is running the program? who created the program?. If we have no choice over our actions, do we have choice over the thoughts we have in our heads?  




> You believe in choice I believe in mathematical certainty order within the chaos.


 Now we reach the facts, so you agree it is not a fact as you stated earlier that there is no choice that is just a believe system?

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tec0 (09-Oct-12)

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## tec0

LLN is a cool theory, enjoyed it. However you are thinking of just one situation. They say a broken clock will be correct twice a day. Now this works almost in the same way. You have thousands of situations each of them seeking to be resolved. 

Now let’s say Situation (A) is too difficult so you make “the choice that not actually a choice” and you rather get stoned be happy and die. 

Now you have not satisfied situation (A) but another Situation that needed you to “get stoned be happy and die” was satisfied. So it boils down to the perspective of the situation. 

Each program will give the desired outcome for an existing situation. Your set of rules that makes you well you, will dictate what situations will be resolved by you. Thus you end up selecting the situations that you are designed for. And you always do... That is not choice that is design...

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## vieome

> Now let’s say Situation (A) is too difficult so you make “the choice that not actually a choice” and you rather get stoned be happy and die.


Everything begins in choice! 



```
User Choice in situation (A)
1. Run the program
2. Dont Run the program

If choice 1 selected - user on desired path
Else choice 2 selected - give user more choice GOTO SITUATION B

Situation B
3. Get Stoned
4. Dont get Stoned

If Choice 3 selected GOTO Situation C 
Else Choice 4 selected GOTO Situation A(Loop)

Situation C
5. Be happy
6. Dont be happy GOTO Situation A(loop)
```

You Get the picture

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tec0 (09-Oct-12)

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## tec0

Almost, you got the concept...  :Yes: 

Now for choice (or the illusion of choice) You think you said no to the situation and or made the choice to say no. The truth is you said no to the situation because your program will not be able to resolve the situation. You think the choice was made by you but the choice was made by the situation. 

The actual bit that you didn't consider is "what is the outcome that the situation needs in order to resolve it. That is the unknown bit... You don't know what the outcome must be. So basically it comes down to this you are not selecting the situation. The situation is actually selecting you.

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vieome (10-Oct-12)

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## Blurock

> Almost, you got the concept... 
> 
> Now for choice (or the illusion of choice) You think you said no to the situation and or made the choice to say no. The truth is you said no to the situation because your program will not be able to resolve the situation. You think the choice was made by you but the choice was made by the situation. 
> 
> The actual bit that you didn't consider is "what is the outcome that the situation needs in order to resolve it. That is the unknown bit... You don't know what the outcome must be. So basically it comes down to this you are not selecting the situation. The situation is actually selecting you.


I can not agree. What you are saying is, leave everything to fate. This is a defeatist attitude. 

So a guy without a job should sit by the roadside and wait for someone to pick him up and give him a job for the day. If he chooses the guy next to me, I will be content with my fate and not work that day.

The choice that I have is to equip myself with some suitable skills and seek a job in that field or start a business where those skills are in demand and can be applied. Just leaving everything to fate is like being a pre-programmed germ without a brain to think for himself. 

Your brain was given to you to observe, analyse and then decide on an action. Even flee or fight, which is the most basic human reaction, requires a decision from you.  :Wink:

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tec0 (10-Oct-12)

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## adrianh

@Blurock - it all comes down to your outlook on life, - do you wait for the universe to fill your half empty glass; or do you help the universe to keep your half full glass topped up.

The universe simply doesn't help those who don't help themselves.

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tec0 (10-Oct-12)

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## Blurock

> @Blurock - it all comes down to your outlook on life, - do you wait for the universe to fill your half empty glass; or do you help the universe to keep your half full glass topped up.
> 
> The universe simply doesn't help those who don't help themselves.


I fully agree.

 :Lttd:

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tec0 (10-Oct-12)

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## wynn

* Opportunities always look bigger going than coming.

* The real reason you can't take it with you is that it goes before you do.

* Junk is something you throw away three weeks before you need it.

* Hospitality is making your guests feel at home, even if you wish they were.

* A closed mouth gathers no feet.

* A man (or woman) who can smile when things go wrong has found someone to blame it on.

* A modern pioneer is a woman who can get through a rainy Saturday with a television on the blink.

* The world is full of willing people: some willing to work and some willing to let them.

* Money isn't everything....there's credit cards, money orders, and travelers checks.

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tec0 (10-Oct-12)

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## tec0

I am enjoying this... But fate doesnt exist Choice does not exist And no I am not trying to be difficult.  :Stick Out Tongue:  If I was wrong then every person will be a hero every person will be at their full potential.  :Yes: 

But because we are not at our full potential means that we are being played, manipulated and forced to do what the design ask of us.  :Rant1:  

You said get a skill set and apply it right. Now why are all of us not doctors or scientists? The truth is your brain comes with a few presets. To be brave, not to be brave to be good in something and bad in something else. Our brains are programed to resolve particular situations based on these presets. You have a fire call the firemen, you need a doctor call a doctor 

The situation mach the candidate always without acceptation If you are the right person for the job chances are that you will make the choice to resolve that situation. But it was never a choice it was pre-designed [made or performed with purpose and intent] even before you were born AND IT SUCKS!!! 

It is not destiny, it is not fate.... It is a simple matter or resolving a situation. That is the fundamental basic of our existence.

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## vieome

> And no I am not trying to be difficult.


 Even if you are, by your belief of no choice, then you cant help it, you were designed like that lol.

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tec0 (10-Oct-12)

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## Citizen X

> Even if you are, by your belief of no choice, then you cant help it, you were designed like that lol.


 :Offtopic:  What I'm about to say is somewhat off the topic, but I'm confident that we can find some way to allow Marley's words to have reference somewhere here? He said, " You running away, BUT, you can't run away from YOURSELF!"

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tec0 (10-Oct-12)

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## vieome

> I believe in mathematical certainty order within the chaos.


 So what I would like to ask you? Because I too enjoy discussing such things. If your idea of no choice is just a belief system and as a result of this belief you live in a world or a life that 


> SUCKS!!!


 Why don't you change your belief system?

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tec0 (10-Oct-12)

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## tec0

> Even if you are, by your belief of no choice, then you cant help it, you were designed like that lol.


Primarily because of this statement... I lack self-preservation it is not in my programming. I have sacrificed my wealth, health and livelihood to help others. It is what I do. 

Thus I cannot help but to make the choices I make. 

Some will say BS!!! We have freewill, we have choices. I invite you to consider each and every choice you ever made and you will find that the situation didn’t allow for any other outcome then the outcome you now have stored in your memory. 

I agree with Dave and everyone else, self-conditioning, discipline and perseverance will give you a desired result when the situation comes forth and demands it. Till then we can only work hard improve upon ourselves as both our programming and the situation demands it.

It is a scary concept, but once you sit and reflect upon your own life. These words will come to mind “If I did that differently that and that would have been better or worse ” Then you will come to understand that each and every situation forced a particular and precise outcome from you each and every time. Not all of it good not all of it bad but all of them where by design.

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## adrianh

tec0 - what utter and total BULLCRAP!

Or, are you saying that you are programmed to speak rubbish?

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tec0 (10-Oct-12)

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## tec0

> tec0 - what utter and total BULLCRAP!
> Or, are you saying that you are programmed to speak rubbish?


Fine proof me wrong... Lets create a realistic situation. Give me R50k unconditionally!  :Stick Out Tongue:  You can make a choice and give me the money OR your programming will kick in and say "go to hell tec0 I am not giving you R50k" Thus the "choice was correctly based on your programming". Was it a choice to begin with?  :No:  no choice just a simple execution of your programming. 

so proof me wrong? Fact is you can't because we don't know what the desired outcome is for each and every situation. If we did we would be perfect and probability will go the way of the dodo...

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## Didditmiself

When one decides on a course of action, it should be thought through as thoroughly as possible before reaching a conclusion. Sometimes it's not at all possible to give it any thought like when a traffic light changes to amber and there's some toss driving up your backside; do you slam on brakes and hope he manages to stop or take the risk and go through on the red and hope no one comes across your path?
I've sometimes made a decision which at the time after careful consideration, becomes the wrong one, and as you say, even though it was a small seemingly insignificant one, it has had a profound effect on me or others. But the remedy is not to hate yourself for ever if it was the wrong decision. Even if it takes a long time to overcome it's effects. We are human after all. But it's a tough call if you've deliberately taken a decision knowing what the result will be. In that instance it would be too easy for me to say you must not be too hard on yourself. I tend to agree with you; it IS the small 'unimportant' things that shape our lives and generally not the big ones.......

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tec0 (10-Oct-12)

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## Citizen X

From a philosophical perspective, all you guys have engaged in philosophizing! The final conclusions you reach, based on the importance of small decisions or changes are all sound within this broad definition of philosophizing! What is striking for me, you managed to do so easily here what many graduates of philosophy fail so dismally to do in actual practice.
We must never lose sight of the fact that one of the greatest philosophical minds to date i.e. Socrates, Plato’s teacher, was charged and put to death on charges of impiety and corrupting the youth..
There is some valid philosophical theory or belief system that can validate all your arguments!

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tec0 (11-Oct-12)

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## adrianh

> What is striking for me, you managed to do so easily here what many graduates of philosophy fail so dismally to do in actual practice.


Well then, graduates of philosophy must be extremely stupid because any fool can philosophize....talk to anybody who'se had 6 beers.

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## tec0

Decisions mean we have a choice... In my experience everything happens for a precise reason and not one of us can change the set outcome. Whatever that outcome may be.

Having discipline and acting on each situation with seriousness is just a mindset.  The reality is every situation will demand a mindset to solve it. If you think no it is simply because you cannot solve it. If you think yes it is only because you can solve it. 

That is life... I personally think it stinks and sucks but after doing much reflection it is a truth and there is nothing we can do about it. Everything will happen as if planned.

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## adrianh

Dude, you're giving yourself a headache.

You are a true Economist. 

The only reason why you say that things happen for a precise reason is because you look at an event and then build an explanation that looks to you like it could have been the cause. 20/20 hindsight simply has no value unless that learning is applied to future decision making.

Your philosophy: I am f*cked because my program makes it so.

My philosophy: I will never give up, f*ck the plan, f*ck the Matrix, I am a an active player in my Plan and in my Matrix. 

This is what I want written on my tombstone "Man, he sure did try"

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## Citizen X

> Well then, graduates of philosophy must be extremely stupid because any fool can philosophize....talk to anybody who'se had 6 beers.


No Adrian, not like this, if one studies what everyone has said, and how they drew their conclusions, you can't really accuse them for not have a sound premises! I'm not referring to aimless drinking talk, this is a structured debate. In my book everyone has stated their individual case satisfactory and noone can really be accused here of not having made a good and compelling case using one or more techniques or methods to justify their conclusion. This is what the final outcome of philosophy is i.e philosophizing but when Plato was born, what he ate, who his girlfriend was, what he said, that is superficial! This is what academia fails to realise, look at the learning outcome, the outcome of philosophizing has been achieved here by everyone who contributed thus far to this thread!

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## adrianh

There is no final outcome. It is all a mindless discussion starting nowhere and ending nowhere.

Some toss ideas around and some talk about tossing ideas around.

We, the uneducated, toss ideas around because we are too stupid to know what the great Tossers of yesteryear had to say!

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## tec0

> My philosophy: I will never give up, f*ck the plan, f*ck the Matrix, I am a an active player in my Plan and in my Matrix. 
> 
> This is what I want written on my tombstone "Man, he sure did try"


  :Yes:   :Clap: 

And there you go... took you long enough adrianh  :Yes: 

Sorry I played you but the design here was to limit option and outcome call it a "situation" and just nagged you ever so slightly with it until I got the result, your post here. I am honestly sorry but I needed to proof a point and really it was between you and vieome.  

So again my apologies, 

My intention is to show how easily we get played into thinking it is our choice when it is clearly not. Truth is we get played everyday by other people that benefits from our mistakes. That is why the little choices are so important. 

If you scanned back at my posts you will see how I suggested things and that would get under your skin... Other posts rendered you powerless no one will accept it. 

Yes we all have choices, we are not just programs... But the post here showed you how you can be programmed and manipulated. 

I felt it important enough to do because I see many business being manipulated many people doing the wrong things with there investments. I hope that the readers can look at this with a open mind and protect themselves in the future against this type of manipulation.


 :Sorry:

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## adrianh

Aye well, I'm no different to any other person, I have lots of buttons that can be pushed...

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tec0 (11-Oct-12)

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## vieome

> Sorry I played you but the design here was to limit option and outcome call it a "situation" and just nagged you ever so slightly with it until I got the result, your post here. I am honestly sorry but I needed to proof a point and really it was between you and vieome.


Are you not just taking a given result and now turning your argument into - that was the plan all along. But lets assume that all along you have being playing programmer of men to a given result, why write such a long program?

Simply you could of wrote your program like this 
>>> Print " Hello World  "

Then link to Behavioral Economics which is about how to get people to make choices you desire. E.g supermarkets putting sweets at checkouts at kids eye level. 

Instead of 
>>> Print "H"
>>> Print "E"
>>> Print "L"
>>> Print "L"

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tec0 (11-Oct-12)

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## vieome

http://nudges.org/ :Thumbup:

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tec0 (11-Oct-12)

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## tec0

> Aye well, I'm no different to any other person, I have lots of buttons that can be pushed...


Nope this would have been a pointless exercise without you and the others. We live in and learn and thanks to you everyone will benefit when those pesky manipulators comes around. Now we can bust there balls good and proper!!!  :Smile:

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## tec0

> Are you not just taking a given result and now turning your argument into - that was the plan all along. But lets assume that all along you have being playing programmer of men to a given result, why write such a long program?
> 
> Simply you could of wrote your program like this 
> >>> Print " Hello World  "
> 
> Then link to Behavioral Economics which is about how to get people to make choices you desire. E.g supermarkets putting sweets at checkouts at kids eye level. 
> 
> Instead of 
> >>> Print "H"
> ...


Nope this was a real live demonstration on manipulation. As I said before I have seen with my own eyes how people lose fortunes tanks to manipulators. Thanks to everyone here we have a realistic model and the tools to identify manipulators and how they work. 

I only hope it helps people in the future... This will make you alert to value the small decisions. I do feel like a jerk for doing it but it needed to be done. It is one thing to read about something and then forget it but once you are a part of it you will never forget the importance.

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## vieome

> Nope this was a real live demonstration on manipulation.


 :Cool:

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## Blurock

Life is a result of the choices you make...

If you do not like your life, its time to make better choices.  :Wink:

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## ians

Ditto, it just easier blaming everyone else.

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## Blurock

This one is specially for my good friend tec0;

If you're not familiar with the work of Steven Wright, he is the famous erudite comic scientist who once said:
"I woke up one morning, and all of my stuff had been stolen and replaced by exact duplicates."
His mind sees things differently than some of ours do. Here are some examples:

1 - I'd kill for a Nobel Peace Prize.

2 - Borrow money from pessimists -- they don't expect it back.

3 - Half the people you know are below average.

4 - 99% of lawyers give the rest a bad name.

5 - 82.7% of all statistics are made up on the spot. 

6 - A conscience is what hurts when all your other parts feel so good.

7 - A clear conscience is usually the sign of a bad memory.

8 - If you want the rainbow, you have got to put up with the rain.

9 - All those who believe in psycho kinesis, raise my hand.

10 - The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.

11 - I almost had a psychic girlfriend... But she left me before we met.

12 - OK, so what's the speed of dark?

13 - How do you tell when you're out of invisible ink?

14 - If everything seems to be going well, you have obviously overlooked something.

15 - Depression is merely anger without enthusiasm.

16 - When everything is coming your way, you're in the wrong lane.

17 - Ambition is a poor excuse for not having enough sense to be lazy.

18 - Hard work pays off in the future; laziness pays off now.

19 - I intend to live forever... So far, so good.

20 - If Barbie is so popular, why do you have to buy her friends?

21 - Eagles may soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines.

22 - What happens if you get scared half to death twice?

23 - My mechanic told me, "I couldn't repair your brakes, so I made your horn louder." 

24 - Why do psychics have to ask you for your name.

25 - If at first you don't succeed, destroy all evidence that you tried.

26 - A conclusion is the place where you got tired of thinking.

27 - Experience is something you don't get until just after you need it.

28 - The hardness of the butter is proportional to the softness of the bread.

29 - To steal ideas from one person is plagiarism; to steal from many is research.

30 - The problem with the gene pool is that there is no lifeguard.

31 - The sooner you fall behind, the more time you'll have to catch up. 

32 - The colder the x-ray table, the more of your body is required to be on it.

33 - Everyone has a photographic memory; some just don't have film. 

34 - If at first you don't succeed, skydiving is not for you.

And finally:

35 - If your car could travel at the speed of light, would your headlights work?   :Online2long:

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adrianh (13-Oct-12), Dave A (16-Oct-12), Pap_sak (13-Oct-12), tec0 (13-Oct-12)

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## ians

Some are already drunk in the pub at 6 pm on a friday night, others are putting words of wisedom on the forums  :Wink:

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## adrianh

@Blurock - brilliant

35- Yes, light always travels at the speed of light irrespective of your point of reference, so if your point of reference is the speed of light then light will still travel at the speed of light. It is the same as saying can you throw a ball forward in a car travelling at 500km/hr, yes, because the ball is also already travelling at 500km/hr but is travelling at 0km/hr relative to your car.

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tec0 (13-Oct-12)

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## tec0

Life is one big road with lots of signs. So when you riding through the ruts, don't complicate your mind. Flee from hate, mischief and jealousy. Don't bury your thoughts, put your vision to reality. Wake Up and Live!

Bob Marley  :Wink:

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