# Social Category > South African Politics Forum >  The most unequal society in the world

## Dave A

For some time agitators of discontent have been saying South Africa is the most unequal society in the world. It's just slipped in there - for example:



> South Africa still has a lot to achieve before all South Africans are really free, the Congress of South African Trade Unions (Cosatu) said on Monday. 
> 
> "We cannot ignore the 58% of South Africans who live in poverty, who cannot really benefit from political freedom as they face a daily struggle to survive," spokesperson Patrick Craven said in a statement.
> 
> He said massive inequality had made South Africa the most unequal society in the world.
> from story on M&G here


Could someone please point me to the study that has come to this conclusion. I've had a relative come back from Malawi and her report of the situation there has led me to seriously question the validity of the statement (and the severity of our poverty problem too, come to think of it).

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## desA

Oh my goodness, these people make such ignorant comments, don't they.

If they took one look at Thailand, Laos, Cambodia, Burma, China, Pakistan and so forth, they would realise just how good the citizens of SA have things.

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## tec0

Well with all the corruption sucking our country dry it is hard to believe that anyone is benefiting. So let us point out that schooling programs are failing along with the prison systems and law systems. We have no foundation to build on really. 

We need to look at: 

A ..> Social development programs
B ..> Welfare programs 
C ..> Schooling programs âfor ALL racesâ
D ..> Agricultural programs âfor ALL racesâ 
E ..> LAW systems 
F ..> Municipality âand especially there services and budgetingâ 

It has been estimated that more than 25% of ALL fertile ground has been destroyed by mining groups. And to my knowledge there are NO plans to rehabilitate old âused upâ mining grounds for agricultural use. So you do the math because the mining groups are buying up more farms than ever to continue to feed the high demand for coal. People forget so easily that food is more important than money...   :Confused:

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ChrisNG53 (07-Dec-10)

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## wynn

Blame the government, Labour Unions and corrupt tenderpreneurs as well as the BEE elite, they are the ones who are being affirmed repeatedly at the expense of the poor and helpless, whilst the unions make it impossible for start up entrepreneurs to employ anybody.

When the masses wake up to the fact that it is not 'White Man's Money' that is being stolen, but their own.
It is their own houses, services, schools, roads, clinics, hospitals, infrastructure etc. that is being plundered.

Government, Labour and ANC spokespeople trying to deflect the anger of the masses on to businesses and people who have made a success of their financial affairs will only postpone their inevitable fall from grace.

Only 'FOOLS' will continue to vote the same way and expect a different outcome.

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## tec0

Perhaps the deceiver of fools? Perhaps a poetic injustice or so the facts will say. However propaganda and misdirection are powerful tools and deception to perspective will lead to ignorance and confusion, thus allowing for the same mistake to repeat itself indefinitely. 

Still fear anger and desperation are also very powerful emotions. It is known that hardship is always followed by revolution. And revolution brings forth change. Sadly sometimes change comes to late.  :Crazy:

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## DonovanBanks

> Oh my goodness, these people make such ignorant comments, don't they.
> 
> If they took one look at Thailand, Laos, Cambodia, Burma, China, Pakistan and so forth, they would realise just how good the citizens of SA have things.


Would YOU like to live in a country where we measure ourselves against the worst in the world?

The better the lives of the rest of the people, the better all of our lives. When that is reached, we all do better in business as out customer base is larger.

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ChrisNG53 (07-Dec-10)

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## Dave A

> The better the lives of the rest of the people, the better all of our lives.


I have to agree  :Thumbup: 

What burns me is people trying to peddle the notion that we're some kind of special case - that the rest of the world doesn't have these problems.

Is our poverty problem the worst in the world? No.
Are our services, amenities and education the worst in the world? No.
Is our corruption the worst in the world? No.

And on the other end of the scale - 
Are the lifestyles of our elite the most extravagant in the world? Well, the lifestyle of bra Julius might give reason to wonder - but ultimately... No.

Poverty, inadequate services, poor education, corruption, flagrant abuse of position are all unacceptable and need to be fought tooth and nail wherever it exists. Fair enough.

But the most unequal society in the world? I've got a sneaking suspicion that we might well be pretty average by global standards.

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desA (29-Apr-10), duncan drennan (09-May-10)

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## desA

Methinks people doth protest too much.

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## tec0

Well yes there is that side of the coin. But just ask yourself âEverything Consideredâ are we moving forwards or backwards?  :Whistling:

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ChrisNG53 (07-Dec-10)

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## DonovanBanks

> Well yes there is that side of the coin. But just ask yourself âEverything Consideredâ are we moving forwards or backwards?


For some, yes. Obviously not for others. 
It's in my plans to do what I can to help others where the govt are failing. I know it's not my job, or my problem but can anyone honestly sit idly by while our fellow citizens are living in squalor?

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ChrisNG53 (07-Dec-10)

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## Butch Hannan

I quite honestly think that we should stop measuring ourselves against the rest of the world. This is a dangerous practice because if we are better than the average we will be lulled into a sense of false security. I agree with you when you say we have to fight what is wrong with whatever  means we have at our disposal.
We must not be happy that we are not the worst in the world. We must strive to become the best!!!

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## desA

> I quite honestly think that we should stop measuring ourselves against the rest of the world. This is a dangerous practice because if we are better than the average we will be lulled into a sense of false security. I agree with you when you say we have to fight what is wrong with whatever  means we have at our disposal.
> We must not be happy that we are not the worst in the world. *We must strive to become the best!!!*


You know, Butch, I remember a time when we were proud to be South Africans. Not from the point of screwed-up politics, but rather from the can-do perspective. We were not afraid to innovate & take risk, where appropriate. You know, at one stage, we even had nukes. We did a lot of spectacular engineering research & in some areas were very much to the forefront in the world. Our university standards were benchmarked against some of the best universities in the world. 

We were able to excel.

Then came the opening up of the power-base & rightly so. Many of us actively campaigned for, or supported this change. At that point, a switch seemed to turn off & the innovation train hit the end-stop. 

I am starting to see a faint glimmer of hope on the development front again, in some areas. I have actively campaigned to birth a number of radically new technologies in SA - these will create an enormous amount of new opportunities, if managed correctly. The most frustrating thing has been to come up against the professional managers whose only answer is 'NO'. Most times, they have not even taken the time to try & understand the concept. Ironically, when they are shown that a Euro-Merkin JV is about to kick off in this field - ok, then... MAYBE I was correct in my forward vision. 

This is ridiculous.

Now, how does this translate down into the rest of society?

Empower the visionaries & forward thinkers - an uber think-tank if you will - to develop & craft strategies that will move SA into the forefront of the arena when our citizens will be most profitably used. Then, go out & look for international partners to assist with capital, technology, know-how, to help birth this innovative process. This is the Singapore model.

Come on, people. Stop bickering, & finger-pointing. Let's move forward into a new paradigm.

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## achengms

No country is perfect and all of them have some problem or the other. SA currently has it better than most other countries. Of course there are issues and things will improve with time. I agree with DesA above that the Singapore model is quite good and it can be applied to a country like SA as well.

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## ChrisNG53

Most of the replies display an instinctive reluctance, on account of relative privilege, to accept what is now a reality. It is symptomatic of a deeper problem at the heart of which is our disunity, mainly racial, as a society. 
Come on, just view the miles and miles of shanty towns ... starting as you fly in at OR, Cape Town, East London ... So even if we are not THE MOST UNEQUAL society, we are in a pretty rotten state ... and that really is the point.
See -http://coginito.blogspot.com/2010/12/pope-australians-japanese-all-said-it.html

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## adrianh

Nothing like giving your own blog as a citation. Hey Chris, you sure do waffle a lot on your blog. You go round and round in circles feeling sorry for yourself. You wanna say you're sorry, knock yourself out. There comes a time when saying sorry doesn't cut it anymore. Get over it, its done. My 9 & 11 year old daughters don't have to say sorry for being born white. I think that your views are very naive!

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## Dave A

> So even if we are not THE MOST UNEQUAL society


Chris, I think you miss the point. There's no denying the poverty problem. But if the statement isn't founded in fact, you have to ask why it's being trotted out. 

A deliberate attempt at polarisation, perhaps?
Where is the disunity coming from?

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## ChrisNG53

As regards your "shoot the messenger" response, I respectfully ask that you now go back to the blog and read the POST SCRIPT (since added). When you do, substitute the child mentioned for your own daughter.
Naive??????

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## adrianh

Shoot the messenger - Dude you are not the messenger, you are the author of the round about tripe written in the blog. - So no, I'm not shooting the messenger, I am shooting the author.

You are naive if you think that the reason this lot are running around shooting people is because we don't go around saying sorry all the time. 




> When you do, substitute the child mentioned for your own daughter


This is not an intelligent argument to support your point. What does the last bit added to your blog have to do with running around saying sorry?

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## Martinco

*Ask yourself just one question â are you sorry? If you are, why have you not said it?
When you discuss this with yourself â¦ and others, pose this question and answer first. Then recall that the Pope has said sorry for the pedophile priests â¦ for the Vatican looking the other way during the Holocaust. East Germany has said sorry to the Jews. Australia has done the same as regards the Aborigines. The US has said sorry to Native Americans. So have the Japanese as regards the Chinese. This list is long. If you are sorry, you say it.*

And what did the British say to the Afrikaner after the Boer War ? Killing thousands of women and children ?  Nothing, Zip ! No TRC.
No amount of "sorry" will change the situation. Try telling a criminal holding a gun against your head that you are "sorry" and see where that gets you.
No man.......get real !

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## ChrisNG53

We do not have to be the "most unequal society in the world' to be concerned; seriously concerned.
When we left Zimbabwe in 1992 it had* none* of the problems that we have in SA, i.e, education, health, security, energy, crime, corruption = all fine. We held to the view that there were concerns ... serious concerns. People thought we were mad to leave.The rest is history. In just 7 years (1999 - 2006) the country collapsed and over 3.5 million of us are now in the Zim Diaspora *scrounging* for acceptance. (My blog post "Despotism Unlimited - Robert Mugabe" refers).
So to say "well we are not the worst in the world etc" is a *very dangerous* argument. It is called being *supine* ... in the face of that which is bad, that which is wrong. It is this acquiescence that tyrants and bad governments thrive on. It is an acceptance of "powerlessness" which will ultimately ensure "victimization".
Government needs to be held accountable. To do that, we first need to ensure clarity about our own thinking.

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## ChrisNG53

Butch, I think you a right on the money. We should be trying to be the best that we can be. We should certainly be better than the apartheid regime. The ultimate obscenity is that people are "liberated" and end up infinitely worse off then they were under "oppression". Also re-assuring is the reality check about the World Cup on your blog site.

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## adrianh

> It is an acceptance of "powerlessness" which will ultimately ensure "victimization".


Yes, yes, just like the Palistinians, Iraqi's & Afghans, they accepted "powerlessness" and ensured "victimization" because they didn't have the big policeman of the earth backing them.

Then of course there are the Zimbabweans who are simply too lazy to stand up for their rights and fight their own battles.

You wanna stand up, cool, but stop whinging like a little girl saying you're sorry. You can't beat a little Barbie toy drum on the sidelines and expect anybody to care about what you have to say.

*Bob Marley not only speaks for the black man, he speaks for all men:*




> Get up, stand up: stand up for your rights! 
> Get up, stand up: stand up for your rights! 
> Get up, stand up: stand up for your rights! 
> Get up, stand up: don't give up the fight! 
> 
> Preacher man, don't tell me, 
> Heaven is under the earth. 
> I know you don't know 
> What life is really worth. 
> ...

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## Dave A

> We do not have to be the "most unequal society in the world' to be concerned; seriously concerned.


Exactly! (although I suspect our frame of reference remains far from in sync).

My reference to Malawi was far from coincidental. It's stable, doesn't have the crime and violence levels we have, and yet appears to be a far more unequal society than SA.

The poverty is far worse; the middle class has a better lifestyle than in SA... 

Perhaps it's not an unequal society that is the real danger in SA, but the political hyenas...

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## Martinco

> Perhaps it's not an unequal society that is the real danger in SA, but the *political hyenas*...


Absolutely !!!  A big contribution to the poverty  in this country.

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## ChrisNG53

> My reference to Malawi was far from coincidental


Socio-economic equality is but one, though a pretty powerful indicator, of a rotten State. 
Malawi has its roots in the Banda era. Banda was a ruthless dictator as regards power, but very benevolent as regards socio - economic matters. 
So, given its under resourced status it did much better, under Banda, than other far better resourced "liberated" African countries under "sloganeering" corrupt leaders.

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## adrianh

Chris - the thing that gets me down is this:

A lot of whites left SA in the past 20 years. Many of us stayed because we see a future for the country. We are pushed out of our jobs due to BEE, we are excluded from various investment opertunities and better still we are told to say that we are sorry for being here. Now you know, I don't care about the BEE thing (I gave up long ago on looking for employment in SA and run a small business) nor the investment thing (I don't have any money to invest anyway), but I am sick and tired of being told that the country is a corrupt, criminal mess because of the old regime and because of the whites that are still left here.

If I believed that walking around with a banner saying "I'm sorry for the sins of my fathers" would stop criminals from shooting 3 year olds, taking R20K to murder a pretty young girl, rape anything in a skirt, etc. I would have such a banner permanently tattood on my forehead.

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ChrisNG53 (08-Dec-10), Martinco (08-Dec-10)

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## ChrisNG53

> Chris - the thing that gets me down is this:


AdrianH - You describe a debilitation frustration that I, and I think so many others also feel. 
We cannot, however, just sit around and moan about it. It has to be confronted and knocked over. Lead SA is all "raa raa" about this. Regrettably is is all very well intetioned but will fail for being superficial.
You cannot cure skin blemishes and puss pimples with cream etc when the "underlying" cause is a blood disorder. 
We have very serious fundamental problems which are the drivers, precipitants and facilitators of our day to day problems.
One of them is BEE, a product of a racist application of Affirmative Action. See the "Twin Towers" post on my blog site. 
So at the very heart of our macro management model we have the same evil culture that was at the heart of apartheid. Evil begets evil. Other deviance, such as corruption, nepotism etc, naturally finds its roots in such a bed.
Now, we will never be able to tackle and knock over any of it, until we speak with one voice. And to do that we have to have national reconciliation, which starts with forgiveness.
Helen Zille is doing very well. If she wants to, at one stroke, accelerate the process to an ideal/model province she should implement a program of racial reconciliation ... and it starts with _simply_ saying sorry.

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## adrianh

Saying sorry - How do you propose this to be done?

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## ChrisNG53

> Saying sorry - how do you suggest this be done


I am not sure. White folks need to work this out for themselves ... if it is to be genuine. On my blog post I advance my own idea on the thing.

In closing my contribution on this and the "Why shoot a 3 year old" topic I want to ask where can Zola Budd be found.
You see this barefooted stripling of an Afrikaner girl, despite the evil of apartheid, somehow managed to touch and melt the hearts of our Black brothers and sisters. They spoke of her with tears in their eyes. 
I think her small frame mirrored their own vulnerability. I think her barefootedness said to them "I am an African".
They loved her deeply.
She needs to come back and lead a national program of reconciliation.

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## Dave A

An interesting piece here on Technology's Role In Inequality.




> Median income in Silicon Valley reached $94,000 in 2013, far above the national median of around $53,000. Yet an estimated 31 percent of jobs pay $16 per hour or less. It’s hard not to wonder whether Silicon Valley, rather than just exemplifying this growing inequality, is actually contributing to it, by producing digital technologies that eliminate the need for many middle-class jobs.


Some serious food for thought in there.

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## Butch Hannan

It is busy happening in the mining industry where mechanisation will replace people due to the activities of the trade unions.

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