# General Business Category > Marketing Forum >  Useless, expensive online advertising

## Dave A

Maybe I'm getting to cynical about online advertising nowadays. But when you've been around the net a bit and got a site that relies on advertising to cover the bills, I can't help being fairly critical when I'm approached to advertise on a website.

So I thought it might be useful and therapeutic to launch something the exact opposite of  Powerful, affordable advertising rather than wreck Norio's fine thread by venting off there.

Today I get approached by a new website for dentists. What this website does is solve a dilemma for dentists in that they aren't allowed to advertise (BS - sorry, did I sneeze).

For the bargain price of R300.00 per month I get to be one of only 5 electrical contracting companies in Durban that will be allowed to advertise on this website. I get a whole page to myself to promote my service, and I can load 3 photos. Best of all, I can expect every dentist in Durban and surrounding areas to fall over themselves to use my services because of my fine contribution.

The deal for dentists, I hear you ak? You guessed it - they need to pay to be on the site too. Not a deal breaker yet - let's look at this fine site.

Google it - nothing. Google hasn't found it yet.
Type in the URL. There's this empty site. Pardon me for not posting a link, but there is nothing to see other than a homepage outline that says "content coming soon."

Maybe one day this site might be worth spending R300 a month on - but that day isn't today, or this month. Probably not even this year.

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## Alvin

What's this website, Dave?

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## Dave A

sadentalonline dot com 
Try clicking a button...

My point in raising this is do some research and think for yourself a bit before you fall some marketing spin.

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## SilverNodashi

So Dave, how did you hear about this website, and what benefits do you get (according to their sales rep?) for the R300?

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## Dave A

They called - telesales. Quite a strong pitch, too.

I then got a follow-up email too. Here's a taste:



> ADVANTAGES OF ADVERTISING WITH SAdentalOnline.com
> Full Page Advertisement (not alongside any other advertisers).Allow dentists to locate your business on the SA Map and access your information 24/7, 365 days a year.Targeted Advertising- Reach all Dental Professionals on this website specifically designed for them.Get exclusive advertising space! - Be one of only five selected service providers for the Electricians category in your city.Fully Tax deductible expenditure for your business.Free fax to email.Get the best value for your advertising investment!
> 
> DISADVANTAGES OF NOT ADVERTISING:
> 
> We are concerned that your current clients may potentially be attracted to other electricians that are already advertising with us.Youâll be missing out on the only detailed/comprehensive South African Business Directory specifically directed to this select market.


I just love the free fax-to-email throw-in  :Big Grin: 

SoftDux - you're in the hosting game. Let's put this in perspective.
Roughly how much is monthly hosting for a small site with sitebuilder functionality? Better give local and off-shore hosting price options.

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## wynn

What should an advert cost PM? how big?
I am interested because I have to pitch a few prospects in the near future and have no idea of charges.

 :Confused:

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## Morticia

But wait, there's more........

 :Yawn:

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## Alvin

Hosting is about R60 pm with all the bells & whistles

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## Alvin

What's actually quite freaky is:

1. "Targeted Advertising" - What the bleep would a dentist need with an electrician on a site that's designed for them. Does each industry now have their own comprehensive yellow pages?

2. Don't you think they should've put some content on the site before approaching potential advertisers (at least some affiliate banners)

3. I think they forgot to hyperlink their buttons, and search fascility, and registration form, and......

R300 A MONTH!!!!???? Great ROI that would be for you Dave.  :-)

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## Dave A

Talking of yellowpages - when yellowpages tried to sell me a listing on their yellowpages.co.za, after I did the analysis I pointed out that they *should* be paying *me*, not the other way round. Now, a bit less than a year later...  :Big Grin:

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## Norri

And it's not just small web sites that Google hasn't found that are absolutely pointless to advertise on.  Try these on for size...

- Ananzi.co.za
- Webmail.co.za
- BrabysMaps.co.za

All 3 of which fall under Brabys, all 3 target SMEs, all 3 are complete rip-offs.  I've had personal experience with Ananzi.  They sell you like crazy and simply don't perform.  These days I try 1-3 months MAX and then renew if it's working.

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Ann Williams (15-Sep-08)

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## Dave A

I'm scrambling around to find a survey of online advertising rates. I'm sure I originally found it via one of Ann Williams' B2B newsletters, but it's eluding me right now  :Frown: 

Frustrating, because it was quite enlightening. I vaguely recall sites like My ADSL and M&G getting something like 10c per impression for a banner ad, but it could have been 50c per just as easily. I found a rate of R700 per week for MyADSL, but that didn't mention the specifics - it'll either be for a specific forum or for a number of impressions over a week.

What affects rates is not so much size. It's location, impressions, targetability and uniques. 

Uniques are particularly interesting. 500 uniques a day might sound like good coverage, but it isn't as simple as that. 500 uniques a day is only 500 uniques a month too if it is the same 500 people every day  :Wink: 

When it comes to advertising rates here, I'm essentially in an auction situation by using Google. I looked at pay-per-click yields and converted that to a pay-per-view bid. On average, it must cost about 4c per banner impression to advertise here at the moment if my maths is right. However, there are big fluctuations. There is a location on the left hand side of some pages that would run at about 80c per impression.

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## derrickm

Seems to me the way to do this is something along these lines:

1. Build a working website

2. Add 5 potential advertisers in each category - just business name and phone number, perhaps

3. Get lots of dentists to use the site, for free 

4. Once the site has plenty of pages indexed, and a fair amount of traffic, start approaching the potential advertisers. "Hey, we've given you a free listing on our site. If you upgrade, we'll give you a full page ad, 2 photos etc. But you get to keep the free listing anyway."

Derrick Markotter

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## Alvin

> I'm scrambling around to find a survey of online advertising rates.


I operate an online business directory for South African Businesses (now bear in mind that this directory is only 4 months old). I get approximately 120 unique visitors per day, and approximately 260 visits per day. If I were to calculate my rates per view, it would look something like this:

Side banner (120 x 60) = R1600,00 per year. That's R133 per month. That's R4 per day. That's approx. R0.03 per unique view, and approx. R0.01 per view.

Top banner (468 x 60) = R2900,00 per year. That's R217 per month. That's R7 per day. That's approx. R0.06 per unique view, and approx. R0.02 per view.

My Premium Listings are R349,00 per year per category per Province. Can't tell you what the hit rate is per category, though, but this got me to thinking that I should probably put some mechanism in place to be able to track such performance per category.  :Embarrassment: 

I hope someone can put some other stats on this thread, so we can get a good comparison.

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## Dave A

> this got me to thinking that I should probably put some mechanism in place to be able to track such performance per category.


Are you using Google Analytics?

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## Alvin

Yes. I am. Just been lazy to analyze it. Will do, and post stats on my category approximate values for comparison.

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## Dave A

Yeah. It could be a bit of work, especially if you've got lots of categories. I'm not convinced just how accurate any of these trackers are, really. The challenge is stripping out the bot stats...

@ Derrick - I agree. That start-up strategy would make a lot more sense. Especially - build a working website!

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## Alvin

The bots are not counted in the stats that I've posted above. The Google analytics, however, I'm not sure of.

Bottom line is, though. Comparing apples to apples. Banner impressions shouldn't cost an arm and a leg.

In a directory, at R349,00 per year for the topmost package (R29 per month), not many should be complaining. (AND all my links are working   :Big Grin:  )

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## murdock

i put an ad in the yellow pages a long time ago...i couldnt wait for the year to end so that i would stop getting calls from the ad...90 % of the calls were people wanting free cover quotes or just checking prices of the company they were already using and the majority of my bad debts for that year were people who already owed other contractors money found my ad after no one else would do work for them...and of course in those days i didnt charge a 40 % upfront deposit so i got nailed properly.

just something i want to mention about bad debts...i have found people are getting caught out by builders...they pay a deposit and the builder ducks...beware of this...make sure they dont dump a load of scrap on your property...then request a huge amount of money...then the excuses start or they just take off with your money.

i was caught like this ...a builder sub contracted all the work out including the building work without my knowledge...we all started working...myself the builder... plumber..."the contractor" dumped a pile of rubbish in the customers front yard requested a R70000.00 deposit and disappeared with the money...never to be seen again...we all got caught...the scary thing is aparently he has been doing it for years...he just keeps changing his location from province to province.

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## Debbiedle

There are some sites that are providing excellent returns for their clients.  In the training industry there are 2 sites that everyone knows about and visits - the rates are mostly  affordable and the site owners have gone out of their way to provide industry related content.  

I have an interest in a site where business and property brokers advertise.  Quick look at stats showed 6500 leads delivered over a period of 6 months.  

My take on it?  Advertise with the sites who specialise in your industry.

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Ann Williams (15-Sep-08)

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## Semnamics

Hey, I just joined this forum. I would love to share my opinion on this one.
The biggest mistake managers of SA online portals make is to forget to populate their directories. This dentist site's webmaster cannot expect to provide you with any solid traffic if they are a ghost town. Their best bet will be to partner with other directories as to get the word out about their own. 

I'll steer away from this for a few months. Don't write it off though. 
They are working to fill it. So give it a chance. 

Regards,
Reinhardt

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## Dave A

> Their best bet will be to partner with other directories as to get the word out about their own.


You raise a good point about partnerships. I suspect that when things start out though, people have big dreams about where it is going to go.

For example, a dentist directory might be thinking "If this works, we can do a whole series of these for different industries." So they're reluctant to hook up with someone else because that partner might be taking space they hope to occupy one day.

Similar problem with established sites - there's this idea that allowing exposure to other sites might lead to an erosion of their existing base. But it could add new people too.

It's the scarcity mindset that often gets in the way.

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## derrickm

I'm building a generic "Small Business" directory for Johannesburg, and I'd like to offer anyone who's interested (and who has a website) a free listing.

The directory is at http://johannesburgbusiness.co.za, and is listed on the first page of Google for a search for "johannesburg business" (without the quote marks).

It's a review site, which means that anyone can offer comments and reviews for any of the businesses listed. Reviews are moderated.

There are two ways to get listed.

1. Click on the "Register" link at the bottom of the right-hand side of the page. You'll need to fill in your name and email address, but you will be able to create and edit your own listing. Please limit text entries to 200 words.

2. Send me a PM in this forum, and I'll add your info by hand. You'll have to PM me if you need to make changes.

If you don't have a website, take a look at TopRankingSites.co.za!

Derrick

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## Dave A

Might be an idea to get the admin link at the bottom out of the public eye.

Can I say - an unusual platform selection for a directory site!

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## derrickm

You'd need to use the admin link to edit any posts you made.

It's a review site, more than a directory...

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## Dave A

Aha! That explains it.

You're quite slick with Wordpress, I must say.

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## derrickm

I dare you to post that on my iKarma profile: http://www.ikarma.com/user/DerrickMarkotter

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## Chatmaster

Another site I would like to add to this list is Easyinfo. When my wife asked me if she should advertise her bookkeeping business on Easyinfo a year ago I said... I do not think so! However when they came for their presentation it sounded mind blowing as it combined both a listing on their website and landbased advertising. More than R18,000 later, not even 1 single deal from there. You should see their impressive stats on the amount of clicks and traffic she received! What a ROI killer!

In retrospect I am not surprised. They have a poorly designed directory and the concept of, your own website under their directory is truly infective in all aspects. They clearly have no online marketing specialists working for them as their site is poorly designed and not search engine friendly at all. The same can be said for many of these so called SA giants, referring especially to Norio's list.

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