# Interest group forums > Electrical Contracting Industry Forum >  geyser timer???or not

## murdock

well i have advised people not to waste money on geyser timers...because i ran tests on my own house and found there was no need for a timer... here is a few tips...when it comes to saving electricity.

firstly make sure when you your spouse and kids need to bath or shower...all shower/bath around the same time...why because it takes an hour and a bit to heat up the geyser back to temperature...now if the kids bath at 5 the geyser will switch on for approx. 1hr 10 min then your spouse showers at 7 it takes just over an hour to heat up again and then you shower at 9 then your geyser has been switched on for 3 nearly 4 hour in total ...so if you all bath/shower at the about same time the geyser will heat up once for just over an hour...instead of 3/4 hours...remember if you dont have a dishwasher chances are dishes are getting washed in the evening so try plan all these things around the same time...just be careful your geyser might be toooo small to handle all these events at the same or similar time...so stagger the kids and dishes then shower /bath at the same time as your spouse...a little later i the evening when the water has heated up.

a timer for a geyser which fits into your electrical distribution board with an overide cost for sale to the public approx. R600 including vat...it shouldnt take an electrician longer than an hour to fit the unit...so long as there sufficient space in the DB.

turn you geyser down slightly it should not be more than 70 dgrees.

lag the pipes and check if you geyser has internal insulation...i think the newer geyser lack the insulation which the older geysers had.

i did tests on my geyser before we had a full time maid...and after a 5 day test i decided it was not needed...now we have a full time maid and the geyser is switching on/off all day...i have just completed a 3 day test...and i have decided it would now be in my best interest to now fit a timer.

remeber a geyser and stove are normally your highest electricty consumers.

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## hal1964

Hi,

Have to say I have been doing this for the past three years and it works. There is however a problem, the timer switches do burn out, I have now had two that was burnt beyoubnd recognition, and having spoekn to a electrician have been advised to install a relay. Problem is that I have yet to find a relay and a wiring diagram for installing the relay any suggestions?

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## Sparks

A timer of the correct wattage won't burn out. I agree with the beginning of your post Murdoch-anti timer. I prefer geyser blankets & pipe insulation. Over the years the geyser has been redesigned for optimum performance and see no reason to interfere with the cycle. That would be like over-riding an aircon or setting it colder to compensate for an open door/window.

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## hal1964

Both the timers were 20A?

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## daveob

Besides the fact that we have a solar panel linked to the standard geyser with a pump, you may still want to look at the GeyserWise control. If you have ( or are thinking about a future ) solar panel, get the GeyserWise MAX model. Our control panel is situated in the hallway and displays the current temp at all times.

It has a temp sensor at the geyser and allows you to set the max temperature for each 6 hour time zone - 0:00 to 6:00, 6:00 to 12:00, 12:00 to 18:00 and 18:00 to 0:00. Therefore, you can specify a lower max temp for the overnight and mornings, and warmer for the afternoon / evenings.

In addition, it has 4 different timers that you can set the element to be on / off.

An over-ride button allows you to force the element to power on, if you need to heat the geyser past the timer settings.

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## tec0

What I do is, I turn my geyser on manually at 3:00pm every day. Then leave it on till just after 9:00pm and turn it off again. Now my geyser is set on its maximum temperature and I have hot water the next morning no problem at all. My savings on this have been R300 per month. Now it can be more if I turn my geyser down but then it will become an inconvenience. The lower temperature means the water cool faster and that is not good at all.

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## Jerrad

unfortunately all  timers have a max operating life, Time switch contacts build up carbon on their contacts from switching on and off in load conditions. I have tested many timers and have found that by the time you start saving money the timer has reached the end of its life. The best way to save money in the long run on water heating is a heat pump.This is not so cheap though, but you need to do your homework before going down this road.

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## AndyD

Contacts should be rated at 10000-20000 operations depending on quality. Worst case scenario even at 10000 operation lifespan and 4 operations per day it should last around 7 years. Best case 20000 operations life at 2 operations per day should last 27 years. I have noticed a tendancy for contractors to install a 15A timer on a standard 4KW cylinder which would draw 16-18Amps. I assume their thinking is in keeping the installation costs low by not using a contactor but even at 10-20% over the maximum rated load of the contacts the mean time between failures would plummet.

That said, I know a few people who estimated their geyser timer paid itself off in 6-8 months.

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## Ralf

Funny I have the directly opposed personal experience. My own house has three geysers. I have put all three on the standard pool- pump timers and my electricity cost reduction just in the first month paid for more than only the three timers. When done in conjunction with thermal blankets around the geysers a two hour period of running the geyser is sufficient for hot water around the day. Personal savings per month are up to R 1000.00. The geysers are 250, 200 and 150 liters and service a 7 headed household.

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ACEsterhuizen (15-Sep-16)

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## Dave A

> Funny I have the directly opposed personal experience. My own house has three geysers. I have put all three on the standard pool- pump timers and my electricity cost reduction just in the first month paid for more than only the three timers. When done in conjunction with thermal blankets around the geysers a two hour period of running the geyser is sufficient for hot water around the day. Personal savings per month are up to R 1000.00. The geysers are 250, 200 and 150 liters and service a 7 headed household.


Were the thermal blankets put in at the same time as the timers?

UPDATE: I've since done my own smart geyser timer study where I installed a Geyserwise TSE controller. I proved a 25.81% saving based purely on the effect of using smart geyser timer settings alone. 

If you take a look at the day-by-day detail I give at the bottom of the post I explain how all things considered, even that proven saving is actually a conservative figure.

Once you understand your hot water draw cycle and how to use a geyser timer correctly, there's little doubt there are savings to be had.

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## Bob Innes

Hi Murdock,  I have done extensive tests on a geyser timer in my house, over the last 3-years, using an electronic kwh instrument, and have proved in my household of two, (my wife and myself) that I have a saving of 24% on the geyser power only. Just thought I would let you know.

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AndyD (15-Apr-12)

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## Citizen X

In a few extension in Lenasia, City Power have installed geyser timers unilaterally and made it clear that it is compulsory. This timer next to your db board switches the geyser on or off automatically during certain times. Whilst, I stand to be corrected, it appears that these timers can be controlled by radio frequency and thereby also allow them to switch it off remotely for extended periods if and when they see the need...

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AndyD (15-Apr-12)

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## Justloadit

The amount of power consumed is directly proportional to the number of siblings living with you, and is also linked to living in maid and family. It is also further linked to whether your siblings are male or female.

I have put in a solar heating system and can vouch that I save at least one full heating cycle per day since installation.

Females tend to change cloths more often and tend to spend more time in grooming which includes many bathing trips.
Maids for some unknown reason, only use the one tap marked with a red indicator for everything they wash including just washing their hands.

Whilst it is easy to say that you have to teach being power thrifty, the problem is I leave early in the morning and return fairly late at night, so the little time I have with the family, is not to be squandered on shouting.

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## IMHO

> i did tests on my geyser before we had a full time maid...and after a 5 day test i decided it was not needed...now we have a full time maid and the geyser is switching on/off all day...i have just completed a 3 day test...and i have decided it would now be in my best interest to now fit a timer.


I would love to do these tests. I run a guest house and have no idea when my geysers is turning on and off. With this knowledge one can surely work out a plan to save a bundle. I also have one installation of three geysers in series, the one feeding the other. I am starting to think this is chowing electricity?

How do you do the tests? Do you have to stand there all day or is some technology available?

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## AndyD

> I also have one installation of three geysers in series, the one feeding the other. I am starting to think this is chowing electricity?


This is an alternative to installing one massive geyser, the first geyser preheats the water by 10-15 degrees Celsius, the second cylinder is set at 10-15 degrees higher again and the final cylinder is set at the final required water temp. It's quite an efficient wasy of doing things because you're not holding massive amounts of water at the final temp so the losses are less than when you use a single big cylinder. 




> How do you do the tests? Do you have to stand there all day or is some technology available?


Buy yourself an Owl monitor. Connect it up to the supply of the hot water cylinders. Download the info on to your pc where it's shown in graph form.

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## IMHO

AndyD, as always, thanks for your valuable input!

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## Ralf

Just an update there is an analogue timer available that is brilliant and only costs about R 170, installation takes about 15 minutes and my personal savings with three geysers of 250, 200 and 150 liters each in electricity costs per month comes to about R 1000.00 and I have the bills to prove it.
The beauty of these little timers is that they can have so many settings on different times, different days or just complete or partial weeks and at the price even if one burns out every six months I still save a fortune.

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## tec0

Upon installing a device that shows me my power usage per hour and my bill accumulating I became very aware of what uses power in my house and what doesnt. Now a lot of people say your refrigeration units eats power I found this to be untrue as they only consume at maximum 350watts of power for 30 min "as needed" I actually did find that they will consume close to no power at all for hours before taking up the 350 watts.

 Secondly I stopped using the oven and got myself one of those energy efficient cookers and it works like a charm. Now my food gets cooked "Family of 3" for less than 1hour it only consumes 1Kwatt at a time. Now your oven depending on how you used it will cook the same meal with 2+Kwatt and it takes normally more than 1 hour. 

Turning your water-heater on 60min before use and leave it on for 4 hours "till everyone is finished" and turning it off again makes a massive difference. Upon turning it on it consumes 3.2Kwatts of power "As needed" when you turn it off the water remains warm till the next day.

Now other considerations are your microwave and kettle. Now fact is my microwave consumes "depending on its stetting" up to 2Kwatt of power for about 30min but with a bit of planning ahead will decrease the need for your microwave.... "I got it down to zero use" 

My kettle my word it just sucks power at nearly 2.2Kwatts!!! Now you can boil half a kettle or a full one it doesnt matter it uses the same amount of energy and the difference in time is not that significant. So I restricted myself to only 2 cups a day and yes it did nearly killed me but it shows a massive saving"

Now in total I manage to cut my power bill with more than half. So it is possible to do. Sad part is when we see that power warning on TV not long after we are without power and that just sucks because regardless of the fact that we saved energy we still get punished  :Mad: 

I dont like timers they are not worth the money, rather just set your phone to remind you each day to turn the damn thing on and then off again it just works  :Thumbup:

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## Martinco

> Maids for some unknown reason, only use the one tap marked with a red indicator for everything they wash including just washing their hands.



Sorry girls.......but this seems to be a common thing with the female gender !  :Embarrassment: 

Another appliance that can be blamed is the tumble drier.  Instead of hanging the washing out to dry, we just slip it into the tumble drier because is is much easier and you do not even have to leave the house/flat to do this.  :Cool:

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## Martinco

> In a few extension in Lenasia, City Power have installed geyser timers unilaterally and made it clear that it is compulsory. This timer next to your db board switches the geyser on or off automatically during certain times. Whilst, I stand to be corrected, it appears that these timers can be controlled by radio frequency and thereby also allow them to switch it off remotely for extended periods if and when they see the need...


These devices are "ripple relays" and the purpose of these is that the municipality can regulate their maximum demand from Eskom and yes........they do get switched on and off by means of radio frequency induced into the power lines by the municipality and also yes...........they are compulsory in many municipalities. If you look closely at the relay you can even see the frequency used to do the switching.

The downside of these relays is that the relay is normally off at the most inconvenient time and sometimes the mun. even "forget" to turn them on again.   :Taz:

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## wynn

> My kettle my word it just sucks power at nearly 2.2Kwatts!!! Now you can boil half a kettle or a full one it doesn’t matter it uses the same amount of energy and the difference in time is not that significant. So I restricted myself to only 2 cups a day and yes it did nearly killed me but it shows a massive saving"


Unless you are drinking tea, which requires boiling water, if you boil a full kettle for your first cuppa and pour the excess into a thermos flask, you can have a few more cups of java than two in a day  :Wink: 

there are atractive jug flasks that do a god job.

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tec0 (16-Apr-12)

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## AndyD

> Just an update there is an analogue timer available that is brilliant and only costs about R 170, installation takes about 15 minutes and my personal savings with three geysers of 250, 200 and 150 liters each in electricity costs per month comes to about R 1000.00 and I have the bills to prove it.
> The beauty of these little timers is that they can have so many settings on different times, different days or just complete or partial weeks and at the price even if one burns out every six months I still save a fortune.


If you're installing a timer on a 200litre cylinder I would be very careful about using makes and models in the lower price bracket. There's a lot of R170.00 timers around that aren't capable of reliably switching a 4KW element even though they are rated to 16A which is only marginally less than a 4Kw linear load.

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## kleva

I can see a new Paper 1 question  :Big Grin: 

How much electricity can the consumer save if supplied by a 10000/230V at a power factor of 95% if:
1 x 150l kW Water Heater
12 x Energy saving 15W globes
Etc

He he

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## murdock

the geyser is a resitive load ...so it has a PF of 1 = 100%

the lamps however...being such a small load wouldnt really make an impact...even though i am yet to find one with a better PF than 0.25 ie 25 % efficency...tested with a fluke 435 PQA...i know from previous posts...someone did mention that you do get energy savers with a better PF.

my concern is the 500 million (just a wild guess) energy saver lamps being given away by eskom...what PF they have and what effect it has on the main grid...the question is...did eskom do a proper survey on the impact...millions of these energy efficient lamps would have on their system....considering all the other electronic devises being plugged into the system as modern technology booms...and did they take into account for harmonics...will there be penalties introduced in the future...like toll roads to make more money out of us...to cover up for their lack of planning.

it sounds like we will be paying for their inefficencies once again...thru increased water accounts to the tune of i think they mentioned 500 billion rand.

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## AndyD

> someone did mention that you do get energy savers with a better PF. my concern is the 500 million (just a wild guess) energy saver lamps being given away by eskom...what PF they have and what effect it has on the main grid...


Many of the newer generation of compact fluorescents have built-in PF correction.....to a point at least. Cheap nasty normal tube type fluorescent fittings are probably the worst culprit for poor PF.




> the question is...did eskom do a proper survey on the impact...millions of these energy efficient lamps would have on their system....considering all the other electronic devises being plugged into the system as modern technology booms...and did they take into account for harmonics...


Switch mode power supply units are the scum of electrical demand management. They're dirty, filthy things with poor power factor and they produce large harmonics especially in the triplen range which cause increased neutral loads. These things are used in just about every home or office computer, they're also in laptop chargers, cellphone chargers....the list is endless. These SMPS's are a major cause of unnecessary load on the electrical supply system. 




> will there be penalties introduced in the future...like toll roads to make more money out of us...to cover up for their lack of planning.
> 
> it sounds like we will be paying for their inefficencies once again...thru increased water accounts to the tune of i think they mentioned 500 billion rand.


The easiest way to penalise customers for poor power factor is to use smart metering and make KVAr the billing unit instead of Kilowatt hours.

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## Bob Innes

Geyser timers: I have found prices that vary from R240.00 for an entry level device to more than a R1000.00 for upmarket devices. I have had an "el cheapo" on my geyser for some years now, and have through instrumentation proved a saving of about 23% on geyser power only  - for a house of two. Savings are of course totally dependant on the "on-off" cycle times that you decide upon. So I reackon it has been worth my while. An interesting Eskom project, go to Google and type in "Eskom's Residential Mass Roll-out" - this is an extremely interesting power conservation project, with freebies and rebates from Eskom. 
Remember, if you have any electrical power saving devices fitted in your house, be cognisant of the fact that they should be SABS approved, or have IEC certification - furthermore they must be installed by a licenced electrician and you must demand a COC (Certificate of Compliance) saying that the installation complies the recommended wiring code. Otherwise in event of an insurance claim you will be in trouble.

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## AndyD

> Remember, if you have any electrical power saving devices fitted in your house, be cognisant of the fact that they should be SABS approved, or have IEC certification - furthermore they must be installed by a licenced electrician and you must demand a COC (Certificate of Compliance) saying that the installation complies the recommended wiring code. Otherwise in event of an insurance claim you will be in trouble.


This is good advice but sometimes a hot water timer might not fall under the COC depending how and where it's installed.

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## Bob Innes

All noted, AndyD, are you saying that a qualified spark is not necessary, or are you saying that a COC is not necessary depending on where the timer is located and wired? Would like to know more.

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## IMHO

Right, here is my headache. Any sugestions, with brand names of equipment to employ?

House 1





House 2

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## AndyD

> ...are you saying that a qualified spark is not necessary, or are you saying that a COC is not necessary depending on where the timer is located and wired?...


The timer would be required to be installed by a competent person.

If for example the timer is installed in an enclosure that is secured to the cylinder itself with a very short cable between the enclosure and the cylinder element then the timer would be considered an integral part of the geyser and wouldn't necessarily fall under the scope of a COC.
If the timer was installed in the DB then it would fall under the scope of the COC and a certificate would need to be issued specifically for its installation.

@IMHO^^^

The installation at both premises is a shambles. I would rip it out and start again.

No earth bonding visible on any cylindersInternal PVC cable used externally in view of the sunNo spreg between the isolators and the cylinders (maybe the horozontal one does but it looks broken plus it's PVC in sunshine)Isolators inadequately IP ratedCabes un-securedCables run in close proximity to or even strapped to hot water pipesNo pipes fitted to the hot water safety valves (hope no kids play in this area)Looks like there might be a vac valve or two missingNo trays installed under cylindersSome pipework insulation wouldn't go amiss but this isn't a legal issue.A couple of the cylinders have limescale streaks down them which is a sign or water leaks.

There's probably a few more things if I had time to study the pics properly.

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## IMHO

> The timer would be required to be installed by a competent person.
> 
> If for example the timer is installed in an enclosure that is secured to the cylinder itself with a very short cable between the enclosure and the cylinder element then the timer would be considered an integral part of the geyser and wouldn't necessarily fall under the scope of a COC.
> If the timer was installed in the DB then it would fall under the scope of the COC and a certificate would need to be issued specifically for its installation.
> 
> @IMHO^^^
> 
> The installation at both premises is a shambles. I would rip it out and start again.
> 
> ...


Gee, I did not realize. See my questions in your reply.

I was actually referring to what can I do with regard to timers, but since I have to rip it out and do over, this is probably the time to do that plus timers. Can you help explain what you mean and advise with drawings? I would like my timers at the geysers and not in the DB's. These geysers is on 24/7 and makes a huge dent in my pocket!

Edit: Or maybe a picture or two of a good installation outdoors like this?

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## AndyD

> Gee, I did not realize. See my questions in your reply.
> 
> I was actually referring to what can I do with regard to timers, but since I have to rip it out and do over, this is probably the time to do that plus timers. Can you help explain what you mean and advise with drawings? I would like my timers at the geysers and not in the DB's. These geysers is on 24/7 and makes a huge dent in my pocket!
> 
> Edit: Or maybe a picture or two of a good installation outdoors like this?


Sorry IMHO, I was a little short with the last reply. The electrical installation does require some tidying up and the best way would be to remove and reinstall whilst reusing whatever components you can.




> Internal PVC cable used externally in view of the sun
> I was told this is suitable and legal for indoors and outdoors?


The cable doesn't look like UPVC which is a UV stabalised outer sheath. I would reinstall it in PVC conduit which is also not suitable for sunlight but it can be painted with PVA or similar paint which would make it fine.




> No earth bonding visible on any cylinders
> What does it look like?


Earth bonding comes in all shapes and sizes. It's essentially just wiring that connects the hot pipe, the cold pipe, the chassis of the geyser, the body of the element and the supply earth together. It's there to ensure that under no circumstances any components or pipework rise to a potential above earth (0 volts) even under a fault condition. It has another worthwhile spin-off which is reducing corrosion throughout the whole plumbing system including the cylinder itself. This earth wiring should be visible around the geyser and its associated pipes.

It comes in good, bad and ugly versions but as long as it's mechanically sound and tests good it's fine;






> Spreg?


Spreg  :Smile: 





> Isolators inadequately IP rated
> How can you see that?


Standard lever type isolators aren't rated as weather proof. You can reinstall them in a York box or similar.




> No trays installed under cylinders
> Why trays outdoors?


This is plumbing or building regs, I asume it's for safety purposes in case of leaking hot water. Similarly the pressure release valves being piped to drain is also plumbing/building codes related to safety of people in proximity.

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## IMHO

Thanks AndyD. Now, which timer do you recommend?

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## murdock

it looks like white surfix...which can be installed...i had a confrontation with another electrical contractor about this issue...the supplier informed me that it is suitably protected against direct sunlight...i was always under the impression that only black could be used out doors.

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## IMHO

> it looks like white surfix.


That is what they called it. Thanks.

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## IMHO

My next question.

I looked at timers on the web. Seems like they all can handle up to 16 amp only. That is 3520 watt?

Does that mean that where I have 2 or three geysers in a group, that I can not have one timer switching all of them?

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## AndyD

There's many ways to skin the cat when it comes to timers. You can have an arrangement where one timer controls all three cylinders simultaneously via a contactor or you can have each cylinder with its own individual timer. Which method and also which particular timer you choose would depend on several things;

Does the premises have varying occupancy or is it always fully occupied?How many flats or families are sharing this water?Is each of the three cylinders on its own dedicated supply circuit from the DB?Is each cylinder the same kilowatt rating? I can see some look like they're varying capacity.Are you sure the water goes through the three cylinders in series? It's difficult to tell looking at the photos but I'm not sure that they're configured that way......


A couple of other points;
Firstly insulation. You really should consider insulating the pipework between the cylinders plus the final hot water pipe that sypplies the building.
Secondly, more insulation. Cylinders that stand outside get wet. When the internal insulation is soaked it's no longer effective and because it's well enclosed it takes a long time to dry out again. The losses during the period it's wet are astronomical. Covering the cylinders to keep the rain off is critical to any energy saving plan.
Thirdly, more insulation. Add a geyser blanket to at least the middle and final cylinder. 

Obviously the hotter the water holding temperature the greater the heat losses so you'll save the most by putting the final cylinder on a timer and the least by putting the first cylinder on a timer. Depending on the temperature settings, ie if the first cylinder is only set at 15 degreesabove ambient then the losses will be negligable. It might not be worth the outlay to switch off the first cylinder as the payback time would be so long, it might be better to spend that money elsewhere where the savings might be higher.

It would also be worth checking the system is set up correctly. I've come across a couple of these cascaded heating systems where all the thermostats are wound all the way up to 60 degrees plus because someone has tampered with it without knowing. There are however occasions where the amount of hot water required has grown greater than the system was originally designed to deliver so to compensate the temps of the first two cylinders have been increased. If higher delivery capacity is required then, as a cheap fix, changing the mounting of any horizontal cylinders into vertical mounted can increase the hot water capacity of that cylinder by up to 20%.

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## IMHO

murdock, I must apologise. I highjacked your thread completely. Sorry.

AndyD, I will discuss this again with you at a later stage. I know I have to do this, but I must first finish the other project. I am still waiting for delivery of the items ordered!

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## murdock

> murdock, I must apologise. I highjacked your thread completely. Sorry.
> 
> AndyD, I will discuss this again with you at a later stage. I know I have to do this, but I must first finish the other project. I am still waiting for delivery of the items ordered!


hijacked...no problem...the reason i start threads is to get people talking...sharing ideas...solving problems...and hopefully come up with solutions...so long as there is "dicussion" its all good...i appreciate and enjoy reading andys input...it great to have a person like him responding wit the valuable info he contributes.

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## AndyD

Thanks for the compliment Murdoch. I also think most of what's being discussed and debated is in the spirit of the opening post.

The first thing I think IMHO should do is a sketch of the complete system and exactly how it's configured. Actually get in the roof and make sure the pipework runs the way you think it does. Once you know exactly what you've got and the existing configuration you can develope a more holistic energy saving plan, the timers would be a part of this plan which might include other elements such as adding insulation, installing rain covers over the cylinders and even replacing shower heads etc.

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## IanF

Andy what are the best electricity saving shower heads to get.

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## murdock

shower heads are like geyser blankets...you stand in the shower for 10 minutes no matter if the hole is 0.5 mm or 1.5mm you are gona waste water...i am still not convinced a geyser blanket is always the best route...in winter maybe but in summer...i dont know.

i have gone to a lot of trouble to save water and electricity...

some of the things i have do...i dont know if what i am doing is the best way...but is is working for me.

installed a 1 kw geyser element...turned the thermostat to full...but control the water temp using the timer...
in summer i have the geyser set from 5 - 6 pm and 5 -6 am 
in winter 4.30-6 pm and 4.30-6 am
i get 300 litres of water (should i say use...i hear they have scrapped it for houses which are worth more than 300 000...but need to follow up) my water runs out at around 7 pm when my wife and daughter bath...so the geyser water mustnt be too hot...it is working for me...in fact i have just recently increased the time because the water was a little tooo cold.
this is also the reason why i have a gravity geyser...otherwise the water runs out and if the geyser is a pressure geyser the water stops...ther eis enough water leaft in a gravity geyser to have a shower.

we only do one load of washing a day...dishes etc.

we use 300kw of electricity per month and 300 litres of water per day.

you need to find what works for you...because we all have different scenerios...some people have more people in the house...some people live in colder climates...

i believe saving "energy" is a way of life...you have to change your lifestyle to save...by this i mean shorter showers...turning off the lights...using solar lights...catching rain water from the gutters..turning off the shower while soaping...shaving and brushing...because i do all these things while in the shower to save water...and many more

a tip for those who have the restrictor ont he water...

if you entertain...make sure your outside tanks can feed water to the toilets when you have guests...it could be a little embarrasing if there is no water in the toilet...route the washing machine water to a tank...the quickest way to fill it and for the toilet its not a problem with the blue stuff in it.

it is just such a pity...all energy saving equipment is so expensive...i believe they are ripping a big hole in our backsides...not because of the cost of the raw materials or labour to manufacture...just because of the big energy saving drive...someone is getting rich...real quick...and goverments are pumping our hard earned money into it...so they are just riding the crest of the wave.

i also heard they are scrapping the subsidy  for solar geyser etc...i also dont think this is a bad idea...because i believe like tlelevisions...the price will start dropping a lot faster...without the subsidy

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## AndyD

> Andy what are the best electricity saving shower heads to get.


I have to be honest Ian, I have almost no knowledge of the actual products available. I'm a bit ashamed to say I fitted a water saving shower head on two of my three showers, I tried them for a while and it reduced the flow practically to a dribble and I couldn't adjust it to a satisfactory compromise. They both ended up in the bin so I can't even tell you what make they were and I haven't bought an alternative, I just went back to the old water-hungry heads. Taking a decent shower is something I really enjoy doing and I wasn't willing to sacrifice it for a saving of a few litres of water  :Frown: 

I think part of the problem is that the new hot water cylinders are 6 bar pressure and the older cylinders ranged between 4 Bar and 1 Bar or even, as in Murdoch's case, gravity fed which would be about 0.3 Bar max in a single storey house. The water saving showers have some kind of a restrictor which limits water flow but it would need a very wide range of adjustment to operate across this complete range of pressures and this adjustment is evidently lacking in many models. 

My hot water cylinder is a 2 Bar copper type so it's at the lower end of the pressure range. I think if you have one of the new fandangled 6 bar cylinders you'd save a lot more water with one of these devices because your flow rate would be that much higher to start with. Also if you have a 6 bar geyser I can't help thinking that a cheaper / simpler alternative would be to replace the 6 bar pressure reducing valve (PRV) with a 2 bar rated one. This would also reduce shower consumption and possibly make taps less prone to dripping and toilet cisterns less prone to constant leakage which often goes unnoticed because the overfill just slides silently down the back ot the tiolet pan.

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## AndyD

> we use 300kw of electricity per month and 300 litres of water per day.


Geez, I thought I was doing well when I reduced our electric consumption from over 1000kWh to between 350 and 450kWh per month and we qualify for free units now which has made it even cheaper. We also consume about 12 kiloliters of water per month (excluding ground water) but I haven't taken some of more extreme measures that you did because my wife would kick the cr@p out of me if there was ever an occasion we didn't have water and I had something to do with it. I think how far you're willing to go varies greatly from person to person. I know people who really aren't motivated at all to cut consumption of any resources. They're unfazed paying R1800.00-R2500.00 per month electricity and falling into the high consumption bracket for water.

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## murdock

to give you an idea of how much you can save when you shower...

firstly the cold water which normally just runs out until it starts getting hot...if you put a bucket on the floor under the shower...you can use the water to brush your teeth...then flush the toilet...as it gets warm...soap...washing your face and rubbing you chin to loosen the stubble to shave...but only shave just before your last rinse...so that the heat softens the stubble...this saves me money in razor blades...shaving cream(use soap to shave)...water and electricity...i use to replace my expensive gillette blades...ever 3 days...now i use gillette blue II maxium 4 pack...which i replace ever 3-4 months at a fraction of the cost.

the trick to saving is shower on...shower off...and if other members of the family need to shower...they should shower as soon as possible after the first person...this way you dont need to run the water till it gets hot again...only a little runs before it gets warm...unless your geyser is really close to the shower.

as i am typing this thread i am thinking what some people must be thinking of me...and how i have become a penny pincher...well the good news is i have money in my bank account...and soon will be looking into a small savings...not huge but as i have mentioned before...some good advice i have never used..."save a little for a long time"...next plan is to open an account to put my vat away every month...use what i have to pay the receiver ever month and save the rest until i have R100 000 in the savings...once i get to that amount i will move the money to an investment account (something a friend of mine does and believe it is a smart move considering he purchases his vehicle with the money he saves...we all know how much you save paying cash for a vehicle)

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## wynn

I love Murdock's savings advice and AndyD's technical know how, but the thing on those geysers that are situated outside that bothers me is they are horizontal cylinders used in a vertical installation, the efficiency must be halved there alone??? only the one picture shows a horizontal installation done correctly. the other thing is that I don't see too much use of vaccuum breaker air relief valves.
Can't tell you anything about the electrical installation but the piping could definately benefit from insulation and the geysers when installed properly would be more efficient with extra insulation. also seal the seams on the geysers with an expanding sealant to prevent weather from intruding and decreasing the efficiency.

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## IMHO

I was told these geysers can be installed horizontal or vertical. No-one said anything about the one way is more efficient than the other! BTW, why is the one more efficient than the other?

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## AndyD

As far as I know most domestic geysers are suitable to be mounted in horizontal or vertical orientation. I'm not a plumber so I don't keep track of the different makes and models of cylinders so it's very possible there's types of geysers that can't be mounted either direction. They do have a considerably higher hot water delivery capacity if they can be mounted vertical because of the internal top to bottom temperature gradient.




> I love Murdock's savings advice...


Murdock's savings techniques are pretty hardcore and sometimes a little scary if you ask me. I take my hat off to him and his family but I don't think I'll be following suit anytime soon..

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## murdock

andy when you have spent nights sleeping in a hole in the ground..full of water...for hours and just wished the sun would come out so that you can dry your clothes...

other times had to go for as long as almost a month without bathing or showering...we were given 8 litres of water per day...and what you did with it was your bussiness...some days we would come across man made watering holes...but the water was always green and slimy.

then last year had not water and electricity for almost a year...where i bathed...shaved and brushed my teeth using a bucket every night and morning...spent nights with only candles for light...unti l i got a little money and got smart...then rigged up the solar lights...gas stove...invertors etc...(i did make sure my wife and daughter had a warm bath almost everynight)

the way i see it...i am spoilt the way i live.

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## Martinco

Well Murdock,.........................I admire your determination and efforts.  It seems to have worked for you.  Well done !

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## kleva

A few years ago I couldn't figure out why my hot water always seemed short. Turns out that all the pretty new taps installed in the house were the hot water theives. These are the models that have a single handle to select cold/hot mix. Everyone left it in the middle, so every time a tap was opened, hot water was running.

I went to each tap and installed the little half turn valves underneath and now leave the hot water to these closed, wife happy she has pretty taps, me happy cos no hot water running when used. If we need to use hot water, then it is quite simple just to turn the valve on per tap, use and then turn off again.

My solar panel started leaking about 5 months back and without money to replace, I had to bypass and started using a timer about 3 months back. With a 150l and only turning on for 2 x 1hr periods per day (@70 degrees) I am saving 4kW/day vs No timer and set at 40 degrees.

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## AndyD

> Turns out that all the pretty new taps installed in the house were the hot water theives. These are the models that have a single handle to select cold/hot mix. Everyone left it in the middle, so every time a tap was opened, hot water was running.


Never really thought about this because we don't have them (all the my house are home built and fairly basic). I could see it might be a common problem though as people would tend to leave them in the middle position where everything's symmetrical and they look the prettiest. Maybe you could re-align the handle on the splined shaft so the centre position is actually cold water on full and you would need to swing the handle sideways to get any hot water at all.

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Dave A (16-Sep-16), wynn (30-Apr-12)

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## tec0

It has been my experience that whenever you touch the warm water tap it starts up the geyser. Now my geyser is also set on high. Now I turn it off and only turn it on for about 4 hours a day I have saved a lot of money. My next step is an insulation blanket for the geyser hoping that within the 4 hours of use it will not lose as much heat as it does now. Yes my water stays warm for longer than 15 hours but still I think there is room for more improvement.

If I may, do this experiment, turn of your main water supply open a cold water tap and drain any existing water. Close the tap and flash your toilet. Now I have found in my home that after flashing the toilet it will actually somehow take water from the geyser!!! Now that was a gobsmack!!! So I figured out how plumbing works and fixed the problem myself. I used to use a "professional" plumber but they never even figured that this can happen  :Confused:

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## Justloadit

The geyser in line should be fitted with a non return valve to prevent what you described

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tec0 (27-Apr-12)

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## tec0

> The geyser in line should be fitted with a non return valve to prevent what you described


It has one now yes.  :Smile:

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## chariot

Our estate gets hit by a high demand charge in the first half hour after a power outage/loadshed. So we need a geyser timer that will delay switch on after power has been restored. Is anything like that available?

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## bergie

you can get a delay on timer and connect it with a contactor. the timing range can be set.

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## chariot

so this would be a separate unit that would sit between the mains supply and the geyser controller?

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## AndyD

> so this would be a separate unit that would sit between the mains supply and the geyser controller?


Yes, it would. Could be mounted at/in the DB or at the geyser itself.

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