# General Business Category > Technology Forum >  May Telkom burn!

## Dave A

After much testing, I've finally deployed a Sugar CRM installation on our office intranet - only to find it isn't working as it should.

The problem is the email functionality. The system requires IMAP connections to my web server hosted overseas, which was fine and well while I was testing over a Vodacom 3G connection. However, the office intranet connects to the big wide world via Telkom ADSL, and IMAP traffic is so deprioritised the gateway keeps timing out (even at a 1 minute setting, which is a lifetime in IT terms).

Burn Telkom, Burn  :Mad: 

Ordinarily I could just deploy Sugar on the webserver, but I need it hosted on the intranet for a bridge to our financial system. And apart from the security issues, I expect even more problems trying to bridge the two db's via the internet.

Any ideas on a workaround?

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## tec0

I am going to sound very stupid âI KNOWâ But why not change to POP I donât know the limitations of your software so it is really difficult for me to help.

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## twinscythe12332

go unshaped?

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## Dave A

Two logical suggestions, thanks. I had to ask local - you raise a problem as ridiculous as this on an international support board and most of them shake their head in disbelief. Even the guys in outer Mongolia connecting via dial-up get an attack of the sniggers.

Here are the concerns with each idea:



> But why not change to POP


Not an option on the software itself as this is not a "common" problem. The idea with IMAP is you pull the email headers, but only pull the content as you want/need it. And with fair chunks of the purpose, all you want is the headers. Ironically, given Telkom's seeming aversion to the protocol, using IMAP probably reduces bandwidth across the link  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 

But running with the POP idea, what I would need is a mailserver that runs on Apache and will pull the mail content off the webserver via POP - then make it available for an IMAP call on the local machine - not quite the standard way of behaving as a mailserver. But maybe there's something out there.



> go unshaped?


Probably cheaper than getting a local webserver and should solve the problem. My reservation here... well there's a couple.
Every time I change something on our Telkom account, Telkom manages to stuff something up that was working before - normally the ID of the header line. (There actually is a valid reason for this. Unfortunately a long story, but I'll tell it if anyone is really curious).Telkom wins with their shaped vs unshaped strategy  :Stick Out Tongue:  and they really don't deserve the victory.

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tec0 (09-Feb-10)

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## tec0

What equipment do Telkom use to shape your line? Donât get me wrong on this. I imagine that if your line is shape it is done so with your IP address. âSimple case and point do your IP address change when you reconnectâ chances are it stays the same. 

If this is the case then they are shaping you via your IP address. Then the hardware is actually very familiar to me. See if Telkom is not too stupid they will be able to set a rule that will allow your IMAP to connect faster.

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## Dave A

> they will be able to set a rule that will allow your IMAP to connect faster.


...or even slower.  :Stick Out Tongue: 

You don't have to manage individual clients' priority settings - you steer which pipe they go into based on their subscription package. From there shaping the connection is very easy - you simply set the priority for each protocol (and/or the ports normally associated) at key proxy servers for the shaped service pipe.

Oh well - I'm exploring the best way to go unshaped tomorrow.

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## tec0

Hope it works.  :Yes:

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## SilverNodashi

Dave, it's time to switch ISP's  :Smile:  I personally use IMAP on a 4GB+ account, connect to a USA based server and have no issues, using Afrihost's IS accounts.

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Dave A (11-Feb-10)

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## tonyflanigan

Hey guys. kinda off-topic here...

Our Telkom adsl contract thingie expires in december. I firmly believe there are other better options than to subsidize theft and corruption, but don't know what. We use, on average, 5gig a month.

In non-tech terms, where should we start looking?

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## SilverNodashi

> I firmly believe there are other better options than to subsidize theft and corruption, but don't know what.


Emigrate to the UK / Australia / USA ?

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tonyflanigan (11-Feb-10)

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## tec0

> tonyflanigan  	 Hey guys. kinda off-topic here...
> 
> Our Telkom adsl contract thingie expires in december. I firmly believe there are other better options than to subsidize theft and corruption, but don't know what. We use, on average, 5gig a month.
> 
> In non-tech terms, where should we start looking?


Have a look here you may find it interesting: http://www.hellkom.co.za/

It is filled with suggestions and alternatives as well as handy links   :Cool:

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tonyflanigan (11-Feb-10)

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## SilverNodashi

On a more serious note though, you need to shift your perception about this a bit. We are not USA / UK / AU / etc, we are South Africa, and what we have is pretty darn good considering where we come from and how we involved (IT wise) in the past 10-15 years. Many of the other countries took much longer to get to the same point. 

That said, ADSL,is ADSL, is ADSL. The only difference is "who do you want to deal with" for the service? One company will charge R10pm less, another will through in more email accounts. 

Sign up @ Afrihost, you'll be paying R290pm for 10GB, or R145 for 5GB/pm

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## tec0

Yes well think of it this way. With over 20 million mobile phones eating R2 per 1MB our service providers can afford to install only the best. Still doesnât make it cheaper...   :Frown:

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## Dave A

> Sign up @ Afrihost, you'll be paying R290pm for 10GB, or R145 for 5GB/pm


And that's unshaped?

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## Dave A

Well, I called Afrihost and explained the problem. Their ADSL offering is shaped and they expect there would be a problem with IMAP connections to an overseas server  :Frown: 

Their recommendation - go unshaped, and they don't offer an unshaped service.

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## tec0

I think call them and ask...  :Yes: 
The deals is not bad at all. 

Here is some info: http://www.afrihost.com/adsl-broadband-internet.php

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## Dave A

I did - that's why I know  :Wink: 

Neotel isn't a shaped service. I'm considering the NeoFlex Data 5G package. At R499 per month for 5GB, it looks really reasonable for unshaped. And the next 5G (if I wanted it) would be another R200.

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## IanF

Dave
Look at hellkom, they list a whole lot of ISPs, maybe you can find something there.

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## Dave A

> ...they list a whole lot of ISPs, maybe you can find something there.


That's part of the problem. There's over 600 listings - and not particularly sortable. My eyes glazed over pretty darn quick.

Besides, this way at worst I've got seven days to benchmark Neotel against Telkom  :Big Grin: 

Neotel's credit app procedure is going to prove interesting though. I'm dealing with the nearest agent and (among other things) he asked for three months bank statements. Can't wait to watch him fax that little lot through to wherever, let alone the poor sap who is going to read through them. 

And I thought running through a mere 40 odd pages of ISP listing was going to be a boring waste of time  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 

They can't have too many clients that fall outside of the NCA yet.

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## tec0

Ok... really funny Dave I was posting that at a time when there was no new posts from you but somehow your post ended up being first and mine second now I look like an idiot  :Rofl:

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## Dave A

There's a three minute time difference between the posts - that's probably how it happened  :Big Grin: 

I'll tidy it up if you want me to  :Wink: 
Just say the word.

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## tec0

No worries, I think it is kind of funny anyway  :Big Grin:

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## sterne.law@gmail.com

> No worries, I think it is kind of funny anyway


In simple terms please - the differecne beteen shaped and unshaped?

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## Dave A

Think of a queue at one of our marvelous government service institutions, Home Affairs for example. You arrive to get an ID book.

Now if you have to go to the back of the queue, and everyone that arrives after you has to go to the back of the queue, and everyone is served in the order they arrived, in IT terms that would be an *unshaped* service.

However, if people with disabilities are pushed to the front of the queue the moment they arrive, and no-one without a disability will be served until everyone with disabilities has been served and there is no-one left with disabilities waiting, this would be a *shaped* service.

Or more cynically, if Jacob Zuma arrived and had to wait in the queue just like everyone else, that would be an *unshaped* service.  :Stick Out Tongue: 

Of course, being the gentleman he is, he would probably insist on the people with disabilities going first before he jumped the queue - and this would be a *shaped* service.

To understand the effect of this principle in Telkom terms, we need to get a little more extreme. There are some things that Telkom doesn't like - like South Africans using cheap overseas web hosting facilities. They'd far prefer we used local, and to motivate this they give certain forms of communication (particularly the ones used to control those overseas web hosting facilities) a very low priority in the queue over our international cable that connects us to the rest of the world.

Going back to our example, this would be the equivalent of setting a rule that anyone with really smelly armpits must wait outside the queuing hall until everyone else has been served. Only once all people without smelly pits have been served and the hall has been completely cleared, may the people with smelly pits come forward to be served. 

And frankly, that person with the smelly armpits would stand a better chance of getting their ID than one of the pariah protocol/port requests getting overseas on a shaped service. This is because in the IT world, anything that stands in a queue too long (times may vary, but it's not long) gets flushed. It's unlikely gov would set up a cleaner to mow down all the people in the smelly armpit queue at Home Affairs who'd been in the queue for over an hour.

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sterne.law@gmail.com (12-Feb-10), tec0 (12-Feb-10)

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## sterne.law@gmail.com

I nearly quit reading at the imagine a government institution part.

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## Dave A

So was it worth reading on?

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## sterne.law@gmail.com

> So was it worth reading on?


I did indeed :Batman:

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## popayetwo

Does anybody know WHY, in 2010 we still have the world's worst internet service from Telkom? WHY are we limited to a mere 384 kb speed (if you are lucky) and a cap of just 1 Gig per month? Are the resourses available TODAY the same as they were 20 years ago? Does Telkom ever upgrade its infrastructure? The world has moved on long since but Telkom still dishes out DO BROADBAND - THE BROADEST BAND.

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## daveob

Probably because they are reserving all the new bandwidth for the 2010 swc. I would imagine they have contracts in place for international transmissions, etc. where they have to guarantee minimum bandwidth, etc.

You'll probably find that they start increasing the max. speed from the current 4Mb lines to around 8Mb, with upload speeds also doubling from 512k to 1Mb at the same time - right after they no longer need the lines for the international clients and broadcasters.

Just a thought ... 2c

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## SilverNodashi

> Does anybody know WHY, in 2010 we still have the world's worst internet service from Telkom? WHY are we limited to a mere 384 kb speed (if you are lucky) and a cap of just 1 Gig per month? Are the resourses available TODAY the same as they were 20 years ago? Does Telkom ever upgrade its infrastructure? The world has moved on long since but Telkom still dishes out DO BROADBAND - THE BROADEST BAND.


No offense, but I think you're a bit misinformed. Telkom has done a LOT in the last 5 - 8 years to make the internet as we know it today MUCH better. 10 years ago very few people actually knew the internet like it is today. I have a 4MB line in my house, and at my office. Do you know the average American only has a T1 (1.54Mb) if they are lucky enough to get it. Australians don't have that kind of "luxury" yet. My 4MB line cost much less than what a 64Kb diginet line cost us 10years ago. And, I now pay R290 for 10GB bandwidth. I don't think Telkom is as bad as you make them to be  :Smile:

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## Dave A

> And, I now pay R290 for 10GB bandwidth.


That would be *shaped* bandwidth  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 

Well, my Neotel solution went out the window. My location doesn't have coverage. 150 metres away  :Yes:  but at my spot  :No:  

Close, but no cigar.

So it looks like I'll have to go with Telkom unshaped after all  :Frown:

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## SilverNodashi

Does the unshaped bandwidth really make such a big difference to you?

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## Dave A

Shaped connection - IMAP doesn't work.
Unshaped connection - IMAP does work.

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## SilverNodashi

I use Africhost + IMAP, and I recently deleted about 20GB worth of old email (backups was taking too long). so it works fine for me

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## Dave A

Would that be to a local or overseas server, SoftDux?

When I checked with their technical department, AfriHost was clearly expecting a problem making an IMAP connection to an overseas server.

Anyway - got the unshaped service going today and the IMAP connection works perfectly.

And emails download much faster...

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## SilverNodashi

> Would that be to a local or overseas server, SoftDux?
> 
> When I checked with their technical department, AfriHost was clearly expecting a problem making an IMAP connection to an overseas server.
> 
> Anyway - got the unshaped service going today and the IMAP connection works perfectly.
> 
> And emails download much faster...


This is on gmail.com which is in the USA. I'm going to setup a local IMAP server soon and transfer all of this to the local server, purely cause I need more control & functionality.

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## Dave A

Yeah, I tested gmail and it worked for some reason, possibly because the gmail IMAP connection isn't "typical". I wasn't happy using gmail to distribute the kind of corporate communications I've got in mind for this system, though.

And from the bit of testing I've done already, it's clear that unshaped is a whole lot faster for a whole range of protocols. It's internet the way it's supposed to be.

Funny, you never know what you're missing until you try it.

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## jinxster

Hi Dave,

Ok I am a new member here.

I have (sell):
Semi shaped service - R40 per gb
Prepaid service - R75
626 unshaped service - R50
Shaped Service - R110 per gb
Local - R10 per gb

In answer to SoftDux, you cannot really compare a diginet line to a DSL line by means of the number in front. A 64kb diginet line is quoted on kilo*bytes* and the 4mb is quoted on mega*bits*. But I agree, DSL gives more for your money.

On a 64kb diginet you should be downloading at a speed of 64kb/s. So a 64mb file should take you 1024 seconds about 17minutes to download.

On 4mb DSL line, you should be able to get 4096 / 10 (start and stop bit included) 410kb/s which is higher. However your throttled on the upload and like Dave says shaped services generally start putting you to the back of the queue for "non mainline home use" contention services and hence you may just find that if Dave lowers his speed he may actually see his IMAP working.

Some advice outside of changing your connection is to use a VPN... our service includes a vLock and vDNS (like Axxess since I resell their services) which can assist you in your IP changing and VPN needs.

In reality 410kb/s on a 4mb line doesn't exist. It is a "burstable" service. So at max speed that is what you would get. The average DSL line is shared with 3 other subscribers so if they sleeping you could get your 410kb/s.  However you dont get that anyway becuase things are happening at an un synched speed, like the government queue issue issue, you downloading your file you get packets that must wait in line, then they get lost and then tcp/ip fixes the problem by saying... send packet xyz again pease.

This means if you downloaded the same 64MB file on the 4mb DSL line, you may be able to get (best case scenario) the file in 160 seconds. But in reality you end up waiting in queues and lost packets occur and hence you actually need to download 128mb to get your 64mb file.

You must understand the DSL is still a shared service and T lines and diginet lines are still where guarentees come in. The downside for T / diginet lines is the internet mesh is so well connected the users dont see problems much anymore. But I still havent seen such great speeds as the speed of the lines go up which means that Telkom are still sharing us and as people get more, we actually are competeing our own service down.

If I were to sell at R29 a gig i would actually lose out on the debit orders since the cost of the debit order pushes my cost over the R29. However what I think afrihost may be doing is (dont quote me on this maybe one of their customers can help me out), they run 2 companies, claim the VAT back on the purchase of the service and then dont give out VAT invoices from another company and so, they make the 14% profit (which is actually about 9% if you take into account the banking charge and so on. Does anyone get an invoice from afrihost? and do they send to all customers? I hear some customers complain they cannot get a VAT invoice then when it mysteriously appears the name of the company changes....

So if that is true, then SARS may go knocking on their door one day... but Afrihost may magically fix that too before SARS get to the actual audit. 

Many thanks
Andrew

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## SilverNodashi

> Hi Dave,
> 
> Ok I am a new member here.
> 
> I have (sell):
> Semi shaped service - R40 per gb
> Prepaid service - R75
> 626 unshaped service - R50
> Shaped Service - R110 per gb
> ...




Wow Andrew, careful with the advertising spam. P.S. Afrihost & Axxess can offer those prices since they "write off" the extra fees on advertising, marketing, etc. They take about R10/GB off of what IS charges them, but they gain those clients back much quicker than you do  :Wink:  And they're not skimming on their VAT so be careful of such an accusation. 

P.S. I been in the industry much longer than you think and know very well how DSL & diginet works. My comparison was a bit different and still stands.

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## IanF

Hi Andrew
I get a valid tax invoice from Afrihost, maybe they just get better rates than you.

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## tec0

Interesting. However you cannot ignore the fact that we have only one service provider “Telkom”

and everyone else is just dealing trough Telkom. Fact is Telkom is cost effective but you would be surprised that TELKOM still doesn’t offer DSL in my aria. We are still stuck with 56k dial up and downloading your mail from that will up your stress and end up killing you...  :Stick Out Tongue: 

If you want to send your family a Video clip or even use Skype on 56k I am sorry but you are dead in the water. Vodacom works OK most of the time but even with a tower being so close I can read the no-entry signs on it; it doesn’t help with my speed.... “Rather doesn’t help with my speed anymore” it use to be good. 

In all honesty it is still cheaper to have DHL deliver a HDD then sending info via the net. In short you don’t get your money’s worth.

case and point with TELKOM: http://www.telkom.co.za/products_ser..._dsl_cost.html

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## jinxster

Hey im not here to fight, I didnt mean you were wrong SoftDux, I actually agreed with you on speed issues just added something for other people.

With regard to your advertising spam, you guys brought up Afrihost @ R29 first.

Then I hear your comments about advertising markets and budgets, but er...

Have you ever thought to yourself... sometimes it is too good to be true... what is the scam.. is there a scam.

I am in no way insinuating a scam. However, when it comes to a company t/a another company name.........

Most large tenders automatically disqualify you. Let me try and explain without making anyone mad or being sued...

Lets call it..   mytaxname t/a myadvertisedcompany

mytaxname is what all my tax submissions get sent on... when I sell something I tell my customers myadvertisedname. This is perfectly fine however the trading part is the part that collects the VAT, so your VAT registration must have that name registered somewhere in it... go check out afrihost (wont mention their other company name) and it seems like there are 2 VAT numbers for the first bit and 0 for the second... hmmm so which is it...

The art of creating confusion to delay time... 

Second... how long has this advertising budget been in play? it clearly states.. a limited number... seems like a very large limited number to me hey.. wonder how much money they got available in advertsing alone....

Now I am not saying Afrihost is scamming in any way. Im just going to tell you how you get some capital.

Basically... there is a ficticious number in companies called... Goodwill.

It is an asset, just like having a car / building / equipment / etc. However it is an intangible asset that cottons on to the market edge the company name has. (whats in a name). If you have a good name you can say.. i have an intangible asset of R1m... R2m, R200m. It happens. However if the company closed it doors and never traded again it would be sold @ R0. So, why make this asset, accounting people will tell you.. when you sell he company... great thats cool, why would you have one in your balance sheet when the company isnt being valued? Well, it beefs up your surety power at the bank and hence you get nice beeeeeg loan. R200m Goodwill = R150m overdraft facility for most banks, its an overdraft, not a long term loan. Overdraft for advertising... sorry that slipped out

The major price decreases started end of Dec 2009 mostly.. why was Afrihost sooo much cheaper sooo much earlier and they never tendered for any government contracts? Co incidence? When did the SEACOM cable get finished?

They get better rates... maybe... maybe not.. just saying its easy to make liquidity if you make intangible assets....

Technically if Afrihost have their real trading name on the invoice, you got yourself a valid VAT invoice. I havent seen any invoice from Afrihost ever, so I have no comment on if they are true or not just pointing out minor details that create millions.

Check SARS VAT vendor search, I dont find Afrihost or Afrihost Internet Services. Maybe I spelt it wrong...

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## Dave A

I see a snag. As far as I know, you can't add goodwill to a balance sheet without a sale  :Confused:

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## jinxster

Hence you make more and more sales by selling at half price....

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## IanF

> Technically if Afrihost have their real trading name on the invoice, you got yourself a valid VAT invoice. I havent seen any invoice from Afrihost ever, so I have no comment on if they are true or not just pointing out minor details that create millions.
> 
> Check SARS VAT vendor search, I dont find Afrihost or Afrihost Internet Services. Maybe I spelt it wrong...


Jinxster
I checked the Afrihost invoice and their VAT number is registered.
So I am happy that I have a valid Tax invoice.

One thing they have to guard against is jumping to the wrong conclusions without all the facts. Afrihost have said they get their Internet from IS so they must get a better deal than you hence can sell it cheaper. Anyway they seem quite open and are quite active on MY Broadband, If you search there you will get a lot more info.

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## Dave A

:Hmmm:  Need to get more specific.

You can't add goodwill to a balance sheet without a sale of the business from one owner to another.

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## jinxster

> Need to get more specific.
> 
> You can't add goodwill to a balance sheet without a sale of the business from one owner to another.


You *shouldn't* add goodwill to a balance sheet without a planning sale of the business.

In practice though it is done many times when a company hits a cash slump then later on you battle and battle to get rid of it until you sell the company then the existing goodwill gets credited and your capital gets debited so the company owes the seller less money. All he can do is hope the new owner pays him the same goodwill so that he breaks even, otherwise he is no better off selling the company, hence if put him in the wrong vicious circle.

Its basically a way to keep a company in operation over the long term in spite of immediate cash flow problems.

My advice, if you want a goodwill asset, it is a good indicator if your business is growing or not, but then add in either a general reserve or an asset replacement reserve to aid in reducing future expenses, coz when you sell.. the debits and credits cancel each other out and you capital figure you were always looking at doesnt change drastically.

If you write software your whole business is creating industry norm techniques to give you the edge.

Eg: you need an accounting package... so I write you one.. it takes me 3 years @ R 0 because I did it myself in my spare time. The goodwill asset cost me nothing, but if someone else wants it, he must either pay someone who can do the job for 3 years (eg 36 months @ R15000 = R 480 000) (or hire 3 people over 1 year) so that means if I sell my company, I can get R450 000 and the other oke gets a bargain.

If I want cash now though, I tell the bank I have this intangible asset of R450 000 and they basically give me 75% of it as a funding scheme so I can sell it to customers in the mean time for a monthly license which is much less than a customer paying me R450 000. But if I dont need the cash now, I dont bother with saying it is worth anything unless I want to sell the business.

That said, software isn't truely speaking goodwill though, but is the same concept. Goodwill is usually calculated from past financials to see how easy the profits came.

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## jinxster

> Jinxster
> I checked the Afrihost invoice and their VAT number is registered.
> So I am happy that I have a valid Tax invoice.
> 
> One thing they have to guard against is jumping to the wrong conclusions without all the facts. Afrihost have said they get their Internet from IS so they must get a better deal than you hence can sell it cheaper. Anyway they seem quite open and are quite active on MY Broadband, If you search there you will get a lot more info.


Good on them then! 

IS dont change their prices between customers (cept on tenders), customers buy bigger packages then aggregate services. Same as a retailer, you buy a million coke cans you will pay less per coke and hence you can be cheaper. But 6 months ago cheaper prices werent anywhere near R29/gb.

It could also be Afrihost thought why not take a hit now (ie sell at a loss) then when the prices come down they will have lots of customers. The only downside to that is, in ISP people like to keep their emails which locks them in to a provider, if they dont have that problem they move... but then its easy come... easy go. Someone else may say R25 then you lose all your good clients.

TBH I dont compete in the ISP price wars, Im not even registered on ISPA. I sell software which uses bandwidth and those clients I supply bandwidth to make life easier. I posted my selling price at the same time as posting my suppliers name, and you can go and buy from that supplier for less than me. Does that not say something? Im not out to steal your ISP customers, Im here to make specialise products work better. If you asked to VPN 4 sites on Afrihost, would they be able to help you at no additional cost? Telkom charge R700 odd pm for up to 20, what if you more than 20.. oops. IS charge er.. well significantly more. (ps: that 4 site VPN must include no configuration or hardware at the clients premises)

However end of the day, your just covering your own needs. If you compare simple services for what you need, its the same thing end of the day. Afrihost is fine, just still looks shady... I am curious to know which VAT number did they use?

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## SilverNodashi

Their VAT number is 4950211534. 

And they are a big company, don't let their website or prices fool you into thinking they're small. They also clearly state on their website why their prices are so low, found here: http://www.afrihost.com/adsl-faqs.php

Just a quick secret: I've been paying IS ADSL R50/GB for the past 3years, and we don't have large volume discount. Someone else I know has been paying R40/GB. Yet, the average market price was R70, so everyone made a good profit from it. Is it theft? No, the supplier(s) advertised their prices, and the customers accepted it. But with the arrival of NeoTel, Seacom, "open ISP licences", etc the demand for cheaper prices got a bit out of hand. Afrihost decided to cut their own throat, so to speak, and offer this services at, or below, their cost price. They didn't make any profit from it, but they gained a very large amount of clients. Other's like Axxess, Screamer, etc soon joined in, cause they probably lost clients & market share  :Smile: 

I can tell you, from experience, that Afrihost makes enough money on their other products & services to afford this kind of move. Other companies, on the other hand, may not do as good as they do with this kind of offering. 



P.S. Generally self promoting (to the extend of saying "I offer product ABC @ R100, sign up here") is generally seen as spam on forums  :Wink:

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## Dave A

> If you write software your whole business is creating industry norm techniques to give you the edge.
> 
> Eg: you need an accounting package... so I write you one.. it takes me 3 years @ R 0 because I did it myself in my spare time. The goodwill asset cost me nothing, but if someone else wants it, he must either pay someone who can do the job for 3 years (eg 36 months @ R15000 = R 480 000) (or hire 3 people over 1 year) so that means if I sell my company, I can get R450 000 and the other oke gets a bargain.
> 
> If I want cash now though, I tell the bank I have this intangible asset of R450 000 and they basically give me 75% of it as a funding scheme so I can sell it to customers in the mean time for a monthly license which is much less than a customer paying me R450 000.


OK. I follow what you're getting at now.

This should be done via a valuation process. You'll revalue your assets and post against a revaluation reserve. This way it would comply with GAAP and not mislead as to where the value came from.

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## jinxster

Yes, thats right. 

With that VAT number, BREVIS COMPUTER SERVICES SA PTY LTD should appear on the invoice then, or rather  BREVIS COMPUTER SERVICES SA PTY LTD  t/a AFRIHOST INTERNET SERVICES. Does it?

You cant use a trading name on its own becuase 2 people in different locations can use same name since that doesnt get verified on the registration documents. Unless the trading name is also uniquely registered for VAT, but that number isnt for that.

If you use that definition of spam, then im afriad using a username the same as your company domain name apart from the .com is pretty much spamming too.

The size of the company in no way changes any laws. The size of the company affects their capacity to repay debt.

You like em, stick with em. Power to you!

PS, I didnt tell you where to signup or the concerns name.

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## SilverNodashi

wow, you really have a gripe with them, don't you? Why don't you phone their legal department and get this matter sorted? No one on this forum can vouch for them, or any other company for that matter.

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## Dave A

> With that VAT number, BREVIS COMPUTER SERVICES SA PTY LTD should appear on the invoice then, or rather  BREVIS COMPUTER SERVICES SA PTY LTD  t/a AFRIHOST INTERNET SERVICES. Does it?
> 
> You cant use a trading name on its own becuase 2 people in different locations can use same name since that doesnt get verified on the registration documents. Unless the trading name is also uniquely registered for VAT, but that number isnt for that.


 :Hmmm:  You don't need a seperate number. For example there's this VAT registration with SARS - Alcocks Pest Control (Pty) Ltd t/a Alcocks Entomological Services. We don't have to put the "Alcocks Pest Control Pty Ltd" on the tax invoice. I'm also a director of another company where there's a list of trading names under one Pty Ltd company on the VAT registration (arising from company buyouts). As long as SARS is aware of the trading names, that's all you have to put on the tax invoice.

But this is like trying to pin the mafia on a tax technicality when the real problem is they're in the business of murder, conspiracy and extortion. Jinxster has raised a far more curious issue.

After I made my post about revaluation, I put some thought into how this applies in the Afrihost situation. And of course it doesn't apply.

What follows is a bit speculative based on snippets of info rather than a complete picture - so please take it with a pinch of salt.

First, the Seacom cable doesn't seem to have had a dramatic effect on bulk broadband pricing yet. Or put another way, the benefits have been slower coming than anticipated by many. This could have materially affected Afrihost's original plan and calculations.

If what Jinxster suggests is true, ascribing a potential purchase price is a dangerous game when there is no guarantee that there will be a buyer of the business when time comes. Given that clients aren't locked in on contract, and given the monopolistic environment of the ISP business, it's just as likely the business will be left to crash and burn as there might be a buyout. By padding the goodwill account in anticipation of a sale, Afrihost could be engaged in Enron style accounting and the chickens could come home to roost pretty much anytime.

Fortunately (and unlike Enron) this shouldn't pose much risk to the consumer who, at worst, might find themselves looking for a new ISP on short notice. So enjoy the cheap bandwidth while it lasts.

It's quite a gamble and Afrihost stands to either win big or lose big. Being fair to Afrihost, they haven't exactly kept the fact that it's a gamble a secret. In fact I suspect much of their support comes from respect for their ballsy approach.

I could see why other ISP resellers would have lost their sense of humour over the situation for the moment though.

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## IanF

> It's quite a gamble and Afrihost stands to either win big or lose big. Being fair to Afrihost, they haven't exactly kept the fact that it's a gamble a secret. In fact I suspect much of their support comes from respect for their ballsy approach.
> 
> I could see why other ISP resellers would have lost their sense of humour over the situation for the moment though.


Here is a post where Afrihost says they are making a profit Afrihost however says that it is working out well for them.  


> Payne explained that they decided to sell bandwidth below cost in the hope that word of mouth would result in significant growth, which in turn will mean bulk discounts from their upstream provider. 
> 
> âWe are pleased to report that this strategy has paid off and we are now making a sustainable margin at R29 per GB and this will become our new standard pricing into the future,â says Payne.  "The R29 price point is not an unrealistic expectation and is here to stay. The R14.50 special that we are running is exactly that, a special, and we will only offer this when we are able to. Afrihost has been in business for close to 10 years and is here to stay.â


 Link.
What I see is happening is that bandwidth has become a high volume commodity with profits now made on volume which then cuts out the smaller guys. They are now upset. This happens in all industries and either you change the way you do business by adapting or finding a new niche.

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Dave A (07-Mar-10)

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## jinxster

Dave A, your VAT registration includes both sides of t/a, thats how SARS knows you the same entity.

This one doesnt. This is just about the same as if I put Pick n Pay's VAT number on my own invoice.

The funny thing is... if Afrihost are making such a big profit, why are they more expensive than the average prices on hosting packages, an industry they have been in for longer than bandwidth?

If they can sell bandwidth @ less than 3c a MB, why charge 5c per MB for traffic on your shared hosting packages?

Second, it isnt impossible to make prices less.. in fact, a 50GB service @ R10 is quite easily feasible...

How do you know your ISP isnt secretly stealing your bandwidth?

I mean you look at logs, you see.. I used 4GB this month... but maybe you only used 3.5 and the .5 was to get you closer to you cap...

Advertise a 10GB service.. give 8GB and *bs* the customer into thinking he used 10.... not saying they do that, but could be done.

In fact there are many many ways to get prices down to even R2 /GB but alas... these are rather shady ways...

Why doesnt Afrihost make a reseller program rather (and not only on hosting)? If it is so clean cut, it would be beneficial to all. That would do the same thing "boost volume".. my thoughts... they would rather not deal with too many IT peeps who actually use 100% of their bandwidth...

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## IanF

Jinxster,
As Softdux says we can't answer your questions about Afrihost so you should contact them directly.

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