# Regulatory Compliance Category > General Regulatory Compliance Forum >  A ply too far

## duncan drennan

The M&G editorial is carrying a story about regulations, and some of the cases in South Africa, I like this,




> But do we really need a law that says each roll of toilet paper has to have 500 perforated sheets, each sheet being 100mm by 110mm, with a core diameter of 40mm for each role? No.
> 
> It is all fixable really, but sense must prevail or we will choke on regulatory red tape. As a newspaper of a social democratic bent, we believe in regulation but think that hauling out the big guns to police the number of sheets of toilet paper is taking things a ply too far.
> 
> Full story on M&G Online

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## Dave A

A great editorial, worth the read. From the same story



> Jurisprudence around HIV/Aids is still in the making. The R5 000 fine for a nurse found guilty of deliberately infecting a child with HIV fails to acknowledge the severity of the crime.


  :EEK!:  

In respect of "A ply too far", clearly a regulation setting the specs for toilet paper is not appropriate. A regulatory framework that allows the consumer to make an informed purchasing decision is *very* appropriate, but of course that regulatory framework should not be limited to just toilet paper. I trust the "draft regulation" presented was merely paper in cheek. 

Identifying appropriate-for-use product specifications is more the territory of SANSA and the like.

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## duncan drennan

In my mind that type of "regulation" has always been the role of the SABS - more of a standards issue. If your toilet paper carries the SABS mark you know it has the standard number of sheets and so on. If that kind of stuff started creeping into legislation....eish....EISH.

Also, I would say that those kind of things are normally covered by consumer protection agencies, which are often run by consumers themselves (anyone remember Isabelle Jones?)

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## Dave A

> In my mind that type of "regulation" has always been the role of the SABS - more of a standards issue.


SABS in the modern taal = S A National Standards Authority.

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## Yvonne

What about when S.A.B.S. after producing said standards and regulations, and who now own "copyright" - then sell those copy rights to private tenders?

No other acceptable alternatives no matter how compliant, or even internationally accepted!

Then the Minister of whatever has someone with a financial interest in said "Regulations" complain, and the Minister then passes a further "instruction" to enforce said regulations in order to financially benefit the holder of the "tender of the copyright"?

You are now forbidden to provide X, except through the "legal holder of the "information" copyright.
This has happened in our industry: I am talking about the Internationally accepted documentation for the safe transport of hazardous goods generally referred to as a TREMCARD - which is the Transport Emergency Safety Information required to be available from the driver of any vehicle carrying dangerous goods on South African roads.

South Africa has "enforced" a specific provider of safety information for financial gain!  
Companies are forced to purchase directly from the S.A.B.S. or a privately held company who has paid for the rights.

This information should be available for "free" - it is surely unconstitutional to "Force" the purchase of legally required document.

A class action could be taken - but who has sufficient financial interest to afford the costs!, this is a matter of safety and compliance, not of financial reward. 

This is a service we need to offer our clients, but are unable to - unless we purchase a licence. 
We refuse to be blackmailed in this way!
We have access to a internationally accepted document: Identical information, worded differently!
Our associates internationally have no such problems! this information is accepted as "public domain" 

The general public have to realise that our S.A.B.S. is no longer a "not for profit" organisation.  
The fox running the henhouse!
It should not be permitted that financial interests are able to "hijack" safety issues.

So perhaps in the near future,(Sure I am being a little bit crazy!) we could have a situation where the rights to print S.A.B.S. compliant # on the toilet paper - will be "sold" and we will be forced by regulation to only use S.A.B.S. Printed compliant toilet paper, or face the possibility of a fine!
So either pay up, or change your business!

My take on all of this is the Govt. is slowly "franchising" standards etc. and gaining financial reward for doing so.

Airport Security - on paper - maintains world standards -passengers are charged exhorbitant airport taxes under the guise of safety issues (After 9/11 Sept)  is this finance "used" for the implementation and control of our safety?

Civil Aviation employees are not a "policing" body - why not?  
They charge for everything (Think of how the bank charges for everything and you get my drift!)?
Their emphasis is on being an "auditing" body to promote safety and security.

All previously tax funded "authorities" are now required to be "self funding" and have to look to business to source additional funds to operate.
Are they all going to be "creating" standards and regulations, with subsequent auditing requirements? and be permitted to sell "rights" to the information.

Apologies, I do not communicate well, but hope you get the gist of what I am trying to say!

Yvonne

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## Dave A

This has suddenly become very interesting  :Hmmm:

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## duncan drennan

> The general public have to realise that our S.A.B.S. is no longer a "not for profit" organisation.


Was the SABS *ever* a "not for profit" organisation? I don't know too much about their history.

My (probably flawed) understanding is that they set up standards with the intention of making money off of selling those standards (or at least break even). My experience of standards (such as ISO standards) is that you pay to get the document.

In my understanding there are two broad classes, compulsory and non-compulsory. Compulsory standards are regulations they MUST be complied with and are intended to protect the consumer. There are other standards the are voluntary and only have to be complied with when you carry the SABS mark (e.g. multiplugs - SABS multiplugs have switches and a reset button, if I'm not mistaken).

I'm not sure whether you need to apply to the SABS to put their mark on your product, but if I dig into my memory from when I was there in matric, I seem to remember something along those lines.

Anyway, I digress...




> South Africa has "enforced" a specific provider of safety information for financial gain!
> Companies are forced to purchase directly from the S.A.B.S. or a privately held company who has paid for the rights.


Can you explain exactly what the private company is actually providing you with?

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## Dave A

I think Yvonne's post has, in a way, opened a whole new facet to this regulatory issue.

To touch on the TREMCard for a moment. The format for this, if I've got it right, is prescribed in the regulations of The Transportation of Hazardous Substances Act. By my understanding, this makes the format public domain.

There is a corrolary in the Electrical Industry - the format and content of a Certificate of Compliance is prescribed. You may print your own but there is no sense to doing that - it simply works out cheaper to buy them from the ECA.

We have to display a notice of the Basic Conditions of Employment Act. Again, anyone can print and distribute it.

Why is the TREMCard any different? Yvonne, can you point in the direction (hopefully something on the web) that shows the regulatory framework for this.

The second issue is how regulatory bodies and NGOs are supposed to finance themselves out of their activities nowadays, but I'll tackle that tomorrow evening I think.

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## Yvonne

I need to find the time to ensure that all my information is 100% correct. 

This is a per use copyright cost - on a standard which makes a specific copyright compulsory.  TREMCARD is copyright of C.E.F.I.C.

Trying to find an intellectually acceptable example of the possibilities of this occurring in another industry: 
Somewhere where Ã¢â¬ÅsafetyÃ¢â¬Â standards make complete sense, are a required regulation for compliance?

Dave for your industry I would imagine that one form is all you need so purchasing them in bulk is a possibility.
Hazardous goods classification have over 3000 variations.
Would you pay approx R65.00 per copy for your document?

I need an example of an industry where one could "develop" the standards, then Ã¢â¬ÅsellÃ¢â¬Â this to the S.A.B.S. and the standards are implemented, and my copyright is an actual standard!.
I then can legally require a copyright payment each time the standard is used.

Note: Printed publications Ã¢â¬â copyright is acceptable to business within reason, based on normal publication price of standards. This should be the sole avenue of income for the S.A.B.S.

Day to day Ã¢â¬ÅusageÃ¢â¬Â of the standards Ã¢â¬â no fee for the copyright of the information should be required.

Yvonne

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## Dave A

> Would you pay approx R65.00 per copy for your document?


Maybe if it was printed on paper made of gold  :Big Grin:  

Every regulation I've seen to date that specifies a particular format normally has a "or reasonable (approximation?)" aspect. Regulating mandatory use of a copyrighted document with a hefty royalty seems rather poorly considered.

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## Yvonne

This gets more interesting.  
I was told that company X was charging R65.00 for the document, just telephoned and the charge is now R30.00 excluding Vat. 

I am trying to obtain a copy of the standards to double check my facts.

Dave I love your use of language: Regulating mandatory use of a copyrighted document with a hefty royalty seems rather poorly considered.

It is not only the issue of the cost, but the inconvenience!

Yvonne

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## duncan drennan

I'm still a bit confused  :Confused:  

Do they supply you with the actual TREMcard with all the information on it, or do they supply you with the blank template, and you fill in the information?

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## Yvonne

The Material Safety Data Sheet identifies the UN number. 

Each UN classified number has specific emergency response information.

The transport emergency response is therefor "specific" to the substance or goods, printed out specifically for that product by its UN Number identification.  

No information is "entered" onto the printed card.

Yvonne

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## duncan drennan

> The Material Safety Data Sheet identifies the UN number. 
> 
> Each UN classified number has specific emergency response information.
> 
> The transport emergency response is therefor "specific" to the substance or goods, printed out specifically for that product by its UN Number identification.  
> 
> No information is "entered" onto the printed card.


Okay, so if I've got this right, you supply all the info about what you are carrying, then these guys print you out a card. You pay (paid) R65 for the card, which you can then use to transport that one particular item(s).

All the info that needs to be on the TREMCard is standard (as per some international and national standards), but the only people who are allowed to print TREMCards is one particular company.

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## Yvonne

Yes Duncan, except I have checked the charge and it is now R30.00 - but it is still the issue of inconvenience, and why any copyright royalty should be gained from compulsory information. 

Originally SANS codes only permitted TREMcard of CEFIC copyright.
SANS 10232-2, Transportation of dangerous goods - emergency information systems Part 2: Emergency information system for rail transportation
Standards SANS 10231 clause 3.1.25, SANS 10232-1 clause 3.1.23 and  6.1.3and SANS 10232-4 provided for the use of either the CEFICÃÂ© Tremcard, or an alternative called TREC Ã¢â¬â which is a Transport Emergency Card, which may be compiled using prescribed phrases listed in SANS 10232-4 
The standards cover the nature of the information about the product being carried, etc.

This gave us Ã¢â¬ÅpermissionÃ¢â¬Â to make use of our own Dangerous Goods Manager computer program which prints Transport Emergency Cards, which are legally acceptable throughout Europe, U.K.  U.S.A.  Scandinavia, South America etc.

In the government gazettes on November 15 (number 29390) the minister of transport Jeff Radebe, withdrew these standards: (SABS) SANS standards Ã¢â¬â 10231-2003 by re-incorporating the standard Govt. notice 1148
Note: We heard nothing about this proposed withdrawal of the above standards, until it was "brought" to our clients notice by a holder of the CEFIC license!

This removed the right to obtain your Transport Safety Emergency Response Card from any other alternative but the S.A.B.S. and 4 licensed CEFIC holders of the copyrighted Tremcard. 

The Minister of Transport should have to defend his action and his right to enforce the payment of royalties, copyright or license fee, to any party, for day to day usage of something essential to the safe transport of dangerous goods.

So, ideas for a new income: Seek something which has an element of Ã¢â¬ÅsafetyÃ¢â¬Â involved, create standards, copyright them (How you get them gazetted or accepted by S.A.B.S. is of course the question?), and then sit back and obtain a copyright profit on every single print of the compulsory regulations. 
Yvonne

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## Dave A

Here are the regulations on the transportation of hazardous substances.

*Definition of a Tremcard:*
"Tremcard" means the transport emergency card listing the hazards and emergency information for a material being transported for use by the driver during an incident, or by the emergency services, if required.

*Incorporation of Standards:*
273A. Standard specifications SABS 1398 "Road tank vehicles for petroleum-based flammable liquids" and SABS 1518 "Transportation of dangerous goods - design requirements for road tankers", and codes of practice SABS 0228 "The identification and classification of dangerous substances and goods", SABS 0229 "Packaging of dangerous goods for road and rail transportation in South Africa", SABS 0230 "Transportation of dangerous goods - Inspection requirements for road vehicles", SABS 0231 "Transportation of dangerous goods - Operational requirements for road vehicles", SABS 0232-1 "Transportation of dangerous goods -Emergency information systems", Part 1: Emergency information system for road transportation" , SABS 0232-3 "Transportation of dangerous goods -Emergency information systems", Part 3: "Emergency action codes" and SABS 0233 "Intermediate bulk containers for dangerous substances" is incorporated into these regulations by notice published by the chief executive officer in the Gazette;

I've ripped what seems to be the relevant parts of the Act too and attached them in a downloadable document below. Basically, The Minister has power to make these regulations.

I suggest an approach by industry to the Minister to include the desired SANS 10232-4 in the regulations. It might have been left out due to an oversight caused by much duplication and an unawareness of the importance of allowing an alternative document that meets international standards and the objectives of the Act.

Alternatively, approach SANS to ammend one of the SANS listed to incorporate the alternative document as a suitable document.

None of the above two points should be construed as legal advice - they are merely suggested strategies. I also suspect that any competent lawyer would quickly have any prosecuting authority unwilling to proceed if the alternative document was used.

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## Yvonne

Dave it is not an oversight - it is deliberate!

Taken from the SABS Website:

 Standards Sales makes TREMCARDS available to the public.

Any party transporting goods per road classified as hazardous in accordance with national standard SANS 10228, The identification and classification of dangerous goods for transport is required by law to ensure that the driver of the vehicle transporting the dangerous goods is in possession of a TREMCARD for each hazardous substance on the vehicle at a specific time. 

Currently only the CEFIC TREMCARD, produced from NCEC software, is permitted under the National Road Traffic Act. 

The TREMCARD contains information in a clear and concise manner mainly for the use of the driver of the vehicle transporting dangerous goods, to make him aware of the danger associated with the load, and to serve as a concise and quick reference in an emergency situation.

It is, however, also available to all other persons who might come into contact with dangerous goods in the course of transportation.

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## Dave A

> Dave it is not an oversight - it is deliberate!


I doubt making such an allegation is likely to improve your chances of remedying this challenge.

Be nice. My approach would be:

Clearly there has been a mistake. Entirely understandable. These things happen. Please let's get it fixed quickly before there is any embarrassment.

If your alternative presents the same essential information, it would be unreasonable to deny the request. Especially as it meets international standards and is incorporated in an existing SANS standard too.

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## duncan drennan

> Currently only the CEFIC TREMCARD, produced from NCEC software, is permitted under the National Road Traffic Act.


Surely if you have the NCEC software then you can create your own TREMCards? Or is the cost of the software too high?

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## Dave A

More interestingly, Is it the CEFIC Tremcard or the NCEC software that has the copyright limitation?  :Hmmm:

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## Dave A

Some answers.




> Many of the other providers of instructions in writing systems have developed their solutions based on the Cefic Tremcard. For example, several systems use the same standard sentences and numbering system. However, while many systems use the Cefic Tremcard numbering system, the content of Cefic Tremcards is protected by copyright and cannot therefore be replicated by any other system.
> from a CEFIC website here


And the Tremcard page from NCEC which looks interesting given Duncan's question.

No sign of a pricetag though.

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## Yvonne

We are going to attempt to approach The Department of Transport in the hope that this is indeed a poorly considered standard.

Just for interest sake. SABS now charge only R25.00 per CEFIC Tremcard (1-10 copies). SABS cannot advise us the initial purchase price of the software, but the annual license fee is British Pounds 2,050 

The SA government gives a monopoly to NCEC, not to CEFIC as CEFIC has given the exclusive right to use the name CEFIC Tremcards to NCEC. (CEFIC represents the Chemical Industry.)
NCEC is a commercial company in the UK and has a license from CEFIC to use their name on the cards they produce. 

Putting our specific case aside, my stand point is that ANY standards which require copyright license fees for "day to day" implementation of compulsory standards, is, in my personal opinion - an abuse of authority, and a ply too far!

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## Dave A

Thanks for the feedback, Yvonne. I hope it goes well.

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## Yvonne

Have been advised that the Govt. notice of re-incorporation of the Ã¢â¬ÅoldÃ¢â¬Â standard does not in fact Ã¢â¬ÅlegallyÃ¢â¬Â withdraw any later published standard. 

We obtained the very latest copy from the S.A.B.S. yesterday and the standard does permit compliance with an alterative to the NCEC/CEFIC TREMCARDÃÂ© - S.A.N.S. 10232-4

These instructions are named a TREC card: this is not a software package and can be drawn up by a company for their own usage, providing they are compliant with S.A.N.S. 10232-4

Whew! I have wasted almost an entire week -on this issue.
Learnt quite a bit! 
Evidently this problem is not resolved, but would require an Ammedment, or perhaps even a new standard, but at least this time we have warning, and hopefully can attempt to be involved in the consultative process.

This has been a lesson to us, in various aspects of business.
It is not possible to just keep your nose to the grindstone doing all you can to be financially profitable, you need to be up to speed on anything that can affect your business, and involvement in your own industry association is beneficial.

One word of warning, do not believe everything you read in trade magazines,  many of the articles are authored by folk who are seeking to protect their own business interests.
Or written in "panic" on a forum, 
when the ")&*$@" hits the fan, because you believe something you read in a trade magazine - as I did.


Yvonne

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## Dave A

I'm _so_ pleased. Now you can give those copyright charging folks the  :Zyfingerdance:  (I do hope that smilie is waving the right finger)



> Learnt quite a bit!


Far from a total loss that will all make the next "challenge" so much easier to deal with. Way to go Yvonne  :Thumbup:

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