# Interest group forums > Electrical Contracting Industry Forum > [Question] Downlight connections

## JustJohann

What would you guys say about this connections ? Crimped together then heat-shrink over it. I want to say that if they just added another sleeve over it all to cover the single cores it would be ok ? Or what are your guys thoughts. Wanting to know as I now have to add extra down-lighters thats the same to this installation.

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## ians

The person who i sue to do my COC's on occassion would fail it for 2 reason ... 1 no connector on the earth and the other exposed wiring.

I take a piece of 25 mm PVC pipe glue pushin glands on either side and bingo you have a joint protected ... or just use a coupling with 2 pushin glands. 

I use this method on flood light with those silly short 100 mm tails ...like radiant sells at ARB for around R60.

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## JustJohann

Forgot about the earth wire. Would also just crimp it with a ferrule. 


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## JustJohann

Some of the other wonderful workmanship I found in the roof. Nou tape just capped with screwits.

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## JustJohann

This one was the best one ever. Wonder why there is a piece of cement under it ? I sent these to the customer and told him these needs fixing asap.

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## Leecatt

For the first picture a three way pvc box with three push in glands. Hopefully there is enough cable on the light fitting to reach inside of the box. That should satisfy 6.3.7 & 6.4.3 of the regulations. 

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## Derlyn

> The person who i sue to do my COC's on occassion would fail it for 2 reason ... 1 no connector on the earth and the other exposed wiring.
> 
> I take a piece of 25 mm PVC pipe glue pushin glands on either side and bingo you have a joint protected ... or just use a coupling with 2 pushin glands. 
> 
> I use this method on flood light with those silly short 100 mm tails ...like radiant sells at ARB for around R60.


Thanks for the tip, Ian. Tried your idea today. Simple, yet brilliant. Will use it for downlights as well in future.

Peace out  ..  Derek

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## Leecatt

> Thanks for the tip, Ian. Tried your idea today. Simple, yet brilliant. Will use it for downlights as well in future.
> 
> Peace out  ..  Derek


How is this legal?

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## Lindley

Actually a very good idea DOES THE TWO PLUGS TURN OUT FROM EACH OTHER?
the lights cable is very short everybody is complain about it.

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## Leecatt

> Actually a very good idea DOES THE TWO PLUGS TURN OUT FROM EACH OTHER?
> the lights cable is very short everybody is complain about it.


Have a closer look at what it is

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## Derlyn

> How is this legal?


Hello brother. What, if I may ask, makes it illegal ?  The connections inside are crimped with ferrules with heatshrink as insulation.

Peace out   ...   Derek

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## Leecatt

> Hello brother. What, if I may ask, makes it illegal ?  The connections inside are crimped with ferrules with heatshrink as insulation.
> 
> Peace out   ...   Derek


6.3.7.2 b is a good place to start. There are others..... 

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## ians

I think its a brilliant idea ... or you can pay R85 for one of those silly joints which does pretty much the same thing.

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## ians

Maybe what i should do is 3 D print a piece of plastic which can fit a pushin gland on either side and put a 20 mm round hole in the middle ... then its not in a connector, bend, elbow or Tee-piece of a conduit.

R 1.50 per pushin gland plus a piece of plastic R5.00 ... way cheaper than those silly little cable jointers sold for R50-R80 ... talk about a rip off.

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## Leecatt

> Maybe what i should do is 3 D print a piece of plastic which can fit a pushin gland on either side and put a 20 mm round hole in the middle ... then its not in a connector, bend, elbow or Tee-piece of a conduit.
> 
> R 1.50 per pushin gland plus a piece of plastic R5.00 ... way cheaper than those silly little cable jointers sold for R50-R80 ... talk about a rip off.


I've been looking for cable joiners mainly for retrofitting joints in downlights correctly. If you have any info or pictures on the ones you have come across I would appreciate that.
The only ones that I could going are sold in the UK only. 
Thank you

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## Derlyn

> 6.3.7.2 b is a good place to start. There are others..... 
> 
> Sent from my SM-A705FN using Tapatalk


Complies with 6.3.7.2 b.  The regulation does not mention conduit.
Will keep on looking for the others.

This method is more compliant than using a through box with lid and screws.

Peace out   ...   Derek

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## ians

This is the kinda topic i enjoy discussing... 

Lets put the regs aside and look at it from a practical angle.

What makes it illegal ... just because it is in a piece of pipe ... I want to know what makes using this method dangerous? 

Please explain to me why the regulations states you cannot make joints in a elbow ... I know the answer ... but lets see if everyone else understands why these rules where made and how long ago they were make ... this is 20 th century very few people still install conduit and wiring.

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## ians

> Complies with 6.3.7.2 b.  The regulation does not mention conduit.
> Will keep on looking for the others.
> 
> This method is more compliant than using a through box with lid and screws.
> 
> Peace out   ...   Derek


the regulations states you cannot make a joint in a coupling ... so the couplings must go ... so you what you do is use a 25 mm pipe and epoxy the pushin glands in the 25 mm pipe ... no couplings ...no elbows .. no TEE- pieces  :Wink:  

or use a heat gun and heat up the end of the 20 mm pvc pipe ... it makes it soft ... push the gland into the end of the pipe ... problems solved. 

I am sorry but i am gonna dig my heels in on this one ... I WILL NOT BEND OVER and allow to be robbed of R80 for a joint when i can make a joint for under R5 ...i have just installed 10 x 10 watt flood lights ... it would have cost me R800 to extend the the ridiculous 10 cm long cable supplied with radiat flood light ... R50 or R800 ... i am gona take my chances with my pvc pipe  :Wink: 

Dont forget the weather drip on the wire if you install it outside and make sure the glands are tight and seal the ends.

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## Leecatt

> the regulations states you cannot make a joint in a coupling ... so the couplings must go ... so you what you do is use a 25 mm pipe and epoxy the pushin glands in the 25 mm pipe ... no couplings ...no elbows .. no TEE- pieces  
> 
> or use a heat gun and heat up the end of the 20 mm pvc pipe ... it makes it soft ... push the gland into the end of the pipe ... problems solved. 
> 
> I am sorry but i am gonna dig my heels in on this one ... I WILL NOT BEND OVER and allow to be robbed of R80 for a joint when i can make a joint for under R5 ...i have just installed 10 x 10 watt flood lights ... it would have cost me R800 to extend the the ridiculous 10 cm long cable supplied with radiat flood light ... R50 or R800 ... i am gona take my chances with my pvc pipe 
> 
> Dont forget the weather drip on the wire if you install it outside and make sure the glands are tight and seal the ends.


Watching with interest. 

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## Leecatt

> the regulations states you cannot make a joint in a coupling ... so the couplings must go ... so you what you do is use a 25 mm pipe and epoxy the pushin glands in the 25 mm pipe ... no couplings ...no elbows .. no TEE- pieces  
> 
> or use a heat gun and heat up the end of the 20 mm pvc pipe ... it makes it soft ... push the gland into the end of the pipe ... problems solved. 
> 
> I am sorry but i am gonna dig my heels in on this one ... I WILL NOT BEND OVER and allow to be robbed of R80 for a joint when i can make a joint for under R5 ...i have just installed 10 x 10 watt flood lights ... it would have cost me R800 to extend the the ridiculous 10 cm long cable supplied with radiat flood light ... R50 or R800 ... i am gona take my chances with my pvc pipe 
> 
> Dont forget the weather drip on the wire if you install it outside and make sure the glands are tight and seal the ends.


I will start of by advising that THE OCCUPATIONAL HEALTH AND SAFETY ACT, 1993 ELECTRICAL INSTALLATION REGULATIONS section 5 DESIGN AND CONSTRUCTION  makes for an interesting read.

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## Derlyn

> the regulations states you cannot make a joint in a coupling ... so the couplings must go ... so you what you do is use a 25 mm pipe and epoxy the pushin glands in the 25 mm pipe ... no couplings ...no elbows .. no TEE- pieces  
> 
> or use a heat gun and heat up the end of the 20 mm pvc pipe ... it makes it soft ... push the gland into the end of the pipe ... problems solved. 
> 
> I am sorry but i am gonna dig my heels in on this one ... I WILL NOT BEND OVER and allow to be robbed of R80 for a joint when i can make a joint for under R5 ...i have just installed 10 x 10 watt flood lights ... it would have cost me R800 to extend the the ridiculous 10 cm long cable supplied with radiat flood light ... R50 or R800 ... i am gona take my chances with my pvc pipe 
> 
> Dont forget the weather drip on the wire if you install it outside and make sure the glands are tight and seal the ends.


I'm with you on this one Ian. Most of the installations that I have seen ( talking about flood lights ) the guys use a through box with 2 glands and a lid with screws. ( Not acceptable by AIA )  Same with downlights.

The AIA states that 20 or 25mm through boxes are draw boxes and no connections are allowed in a draw box, so all those spotlights and down lights connected this way are not acceptable.  That big tray we use in the ceiling that we refer to as a bonding tray is also a draw box, so no connections allowed in same. Have you ever come across a bonding tray in an attic without any connections in it ? I cannot remember ever seeing one.

Anyway, once again, thanks for the tip. I have bounced it off some of the ECA guys here and they reckon it ticks all the blocks. 1. weatherproof  2.  no access to live parts without the use of a tool or key.   3. crimped connections with heatshrink ( mf joint ) no need for access to inspect.

Peace out  ..  Derek

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## ians

> I will start of by advising that THE OCCUPATIONAL HEALTH AND SAFETY ACT, 1993 ELECTRICAL INSTALLATION REGULATIONS section 5 DESIGN AND CONSTRUCTION  makes for an interesting read.


I was hoping we could try using a bit of "common sense" for a change ... I do agree with doing things "by the book" ... but sometimes its good to take off the blinkers and expand your view.

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## Leecatt

Talking about by the book. Your encouraging others to make up their own equipment... 

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## Leecatt

> Talking about by the book. Your encouraging others to make up their own equipment... 
> 
> Sent from my SM-A705FN using Tapatalk


I am the only electrician in my company and as such have no electricians to discuss matters with and gain valuable experience. 
I first joined this forum to gather some knowledge from the members here and I did, to an extent.
However, it seems that I have come to the end off the useful part of that journey.
Some of the information I am now harvesting does not appear to have any benefit to me 
I am not a policeman and it is not my place to guide anyone nor do I want it to be.
There are some very clever people on this forum and I thank you for your contributions to my knowledge base.

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## SeanM

Morning All

The comment about no connections in a round box?

Where in the regulations does it not allow this?

I learn something everyday and always refer back to the regs to satisfy myself that it is not just a personal preference.

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## ians

I would encourage people to have open discussions on forums and groups ... I certainly dont take info i read on the internet as the final decision ... i use it merely as a source to see things from a different perspective.

I am also a one man operation ... however i certainly dont rely on info shared of social media and dont waste my time going into detail with attached rules and regs ... my cutomers pay me a lot of money to generate reports ... people should be grategful that there are people on this forum who do take time out of their busy schedule to post responses.

I encourage people to use a little comon sense and open your mind while browsing the internet ... and dont take anything personally. 

So back to the brilliant idea ... still no taker on why this is dangerous? 

You can acess it without the use of a tool ? 

the type of material used cannot withstand and arc flash ... ( pipe should be SABS rated) ?

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## AndyD

It does beg the question of why not just purchase floodlights with a decent length flex in the first place.

I'm not sure if you're 100% serious about this or whether you're playing devils advocate, I'm kinda hoping it's the latter. 

Yes, you're saving money but I guess the issue is whether it's worth the cost.....You can buy a miniature in-line resin joint for R65.00 to extend the flex and an aluminium 90x36x30mm IP65 surface mount enclosure for R80.00 (probably half that price for a PVC or ABS enclosure). A couple of glands at maybe R2.00 each and 3 Wago connectors at R4.00 each so your total saving is about R160- minus whatever the cost is of you home made joint. If you'd bought a floodlight with a decent length flex in the first place your home made enclosure would have saved you less than a hundred bucks.

**EDIT** I just priced a plastic 100x100x50mm IP56 enclosure at R22.50 so that's under 40 bucks total with Wago's and glands.  

Compliance problems I see are;

That you're using items outside of the manufacturers specs and recommendations (see 6.3.7.1 below).You're jointing a flex cable with ferrules which isn't using '_cable couplers or manufacturers' jointing kits_' (see 6.3.7.1 below).Light fittings fall under the fixed appliance regs apart from where they're specifically exempted and their input terminations require a 'suitable enclosure' (6.16.1.9 below) with a further reference to 6.6.4 which in turn says they must comply with distribution boards that form part of a fixed electrical installation and shall comply with SANS 1473-1.




```
6.3.7.1 Joints and terminations of cables, cores and conductors shall be
made in accordance with manufacturers' instructions or the appropriate
part of SANS 10198 (SABS 0198). Flexible cables shall only be joined
using cable couplers or manufacturers' jointing kits. All joints shall be
accessible, protected against strain, and protected in accordance with
5.1.1.
```



```
6.16.1.9 Unless part of the appliance or self contained in their own
enclosure, control components of fixed appliances that form part of the fixed
installation, including their input terminations and associated protective
switchgear that are not mounted in the distribution board, shall be
incorporated in a suitable enclosure(s) that comply with the requirements of
6.6.1 and 6.6.4. Enclosure(s) shall be
a) non-flammable,
b) located as near to the appliance(s) as is practicable,
c) permanently installed,
d) such that they cannot be opened without the use of a tool, and
e) readily accessible.
```



```
6.6.4 Distribution boards built or modified on site with a short-circuit
rating up to and including 10 kA 
6.6.4.1 General
A distribution board shall comply with 6.6.1, 6.6.2, 6.6.4.2 and 6.6.4.3.
```

I get it that you want to save money and we could argue all day regarding grey areas in the regs and how maybe....possibly..... something could be compliant because there's no reg explicitly forbidding it. Yes the regs are flawed, yes the regs don't keep pace with the rapidly changing technologies, hell, they wouldn't be updating them every few months if they weren't but I prefer to look at the regs as an absolute minimum standard everyone should be working to, not as a gold standard we should be aspiring to. I think it's an easy trap to fall into where you get into the mindset of butting heads or fighting the regs because a method you've used, although unorthadox, could well be done safely and reliably in some scenarios or maybe you can convince yourself a regulation seems irrelevant to your particular job at hand. It's easy to become disillusioned and see the regs as the enemy with their lack of enforcement and when you're losing quotes to chancers who are undercutting you and doing sub-standard work with impunity. 

Honestly, if I saw that joint and it was installed by a DIY'er in his own home I'd smile and quietly marvel at his ingenuity, I'd be happy that he did a half decent, reasonably safe job with the knowledge and materials he at hand. I'd probably tell him I appreciate his efforts but can't I just put a proper enclosure with some compliant connectors whilst I'm there. If I saw that joint and it had been installed by a professional electrician I'd be disappointed. I'd question why on earth he'd want to take such a chance to save a hundred bucks. I'd question his integrity and I'd probably be wondering if he actually was a qualified sparky or whether he was a chancer. 

Common sense would say to me that ferruling a trailing cable to the supply wiring is a bad idea when obviously ferrules are a permanent joint that can't be easily disconnected for future testing.

Common sense would say to me it's not worth invalidating the warranty of the item you're installing by not following manufacturers instructions and recommendations.

Common sense would say to me it's not worth taking on the legal liablity if there's a failure in future no matter how slim the chance. At best you you might be forced to return to remedy the installation, at worse you could end up in a court of law.

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## Trevor Varner

Hi I'm new on the forum, trying to follow the thread. 
 6.6.1 and 6.6.4 are referring to distribution boards in my understanding and 
not enclosures. Enclosures in 3.35 is a part that provides protection of equipment against certain external
influences and in any direction, protection against direct contact.
There is no definition for cable coupler and I haven't heard heard of any manufacturers jointing kits that should be used with a branded light fitting

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## JustJohann

No joints in a round box ? First I have ever heard that. Learned that that or a 2x4 surface box with a blank plate or a 4x4 surface box with a blank plate is the correct way of joining cables in roof spaces or where it is accessible.Been doing it for 18years and have seen many others exactly like it in different place from different people. If you say its not allowed then what do you do to install a light fitting in a older installation where there is a round box that has the cables coming out of it ? I would agree that the persons idea of using the conduit as a joint for a light is not so good as it makes it difficult for the next person that has to replace the light.But for something more permanent ? Dump some resin inside of it and it would make a good permanent joint. Hell it cant be worse than doing a emergency joint on a 50mm 4 core cable with 2 2liter cooldrink bottles and loads of tape and resin as not one of the suppliers had a joint big enough and the farmer had to have power. I think in the end any way you join a cable can be viewed as wrong by someone else.

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## AndyD

I'm back again now with some more time. 

I think 6.14.3.6 applies.



```
The connections between circuit conductors and luminaire
conductors shall
a) allow enough slack immediately behind the base of the luminaire for
easy handling, and
b) in the case of a pre-wired luminaire, be made using a connector.
```

Ferrules are not 'connectors'. Again there's no definition given but elsewhere references to connectors also refer to screw type connector blocks and push-in wire connectors.

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## Derlyn

Hi Sean

It's not just a personal preference.

There are a number of factors to take into account. ie.  SANS 10142-1 ,  The Occupational Health and Safety Act , AND Manufacturer's specifications.
Most people forget about the last 2 mentioned above.

All conduit through boxes, whether they are end boxes ( one way ), 2 way, 3 way or 4 way are *not connection boxes or terminal boxes*. They are draw boxes or inspection boxes much the same as inspection elbows, inspection tee pieces etc.  ( Manufacturer's specs )

Don't feel alone, brother, I've been an electrical contractor for 45 years and only became aware of this about 2 years ago.

Peace out   ..   Derek

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## ians

> It does beg the question of why not just purchase floodlights with a decent length flex in the first place.
> 
> I'm not sure if you're 100% serious about this or whether you're playing devils advocate, I'm kinda hoping it's the latter. 
> 
> Yes, you're saving money but I guess the issue is whether it's worth the cost.....You can buy a miniature in-line resin joint for R65.00 to extend the flex and an aluminium 90x36x30mm IP65 surface mount enclosure for R80.00 (probably half that price for a PVC or ABS enclosure). A couple of glands at maybe R2.00 each and 3 Wago connectors at R4.00 each so your total saving is about R160- minus whatever the cost is of you home made joint. If you'd bought a floodlight with a decent length flex in the first place your home made enclosure would have saved you less than a hundred bucks.
> 
> **EDIT** I just priced a plastic 100x100x50mm IP56 enclosure at R22.50 so that's under 40 bucks total with Wago's and glands.  
> 
> Compliance problems I see are;
> ...



The first 10 I purchased for R120 with a long cable (Pioled) ... installed Y boxes under the eave and everyone is happy ... then ARB ran a special @ R65 for (RAdient) so i thought i would save a few cents ...but did I save a few bob ...at this point i did because i used my "brilliant" cost saving idea ... job is complete and working ... however as the "discussion" continues ... it might cost me a few more bob resolving the problem ... in fact it might be cheaper to dump the silly Radiant lights and just get another 10 Pioled ones with longer cables ... all the connections are under the eave out of the rain.

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## ians

> Hi Sean
> 
> It's not just a personal preference.
> 
> There are a number of factors to take into account. ie.  SANS 10142-1 ,  The Occupational Health and Safety Act , AND Manufacturer's specifications.
> Most people forget about the last 2 mentioned above.
> 
> All conduit through boxes, whether they are end boxes ( one way ), 2 way, 3 way or 4 way are *not connection boxes or terminal boxes*. They are draw boxes or inspection boxes much the same as inspection elbows, inspection tee pieces etc.  ( Manufacturer's specs )
> 
> ...


This is why it is so important to have these dicussions ... I am also a little confused with the round box comments ... I had an idea that my pipe joint might be an issue ...but this has got me really confused ... if I understand this statement ...you shouldnt be using the round boxes in the roof space to connect your lights ??? 

This comment also makes my entire security light project illegal ... I have twin+e running from light to light ... with a Y box fitted ... the twin+e in and out with and the security light connected using wago 221 ... if I understand these statements ... I am not allowed to terminate the security light in the Y box ???

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## ians

> I'm back again now with some more time. 
> 
> I think 6.14.3.6 applies.
> 
> 
> 
> ```
> The connections between circuit conductors and luminaire
> conductors shall
> ...


One thing to note ... the pipe joint is not the connection point ... it is merly being used to extend the cable ... the connection point is at the Y box ( which also seems to be incorrect if I read the statements here)

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## Derlyn

Sorry if this sounds like a doff question.
Can someone explain the difference between a spotlight with a 20cm flex lead or one with a 1 meter lead.
They both need to be joined.
Does the length of the lead determine the method used to make the connection ?

Peace out   ...   Derek

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## ians

> Sorry if this sounds like a doff question.
> Can someone explain the difference between a spotlight with a 20cm flex lead or one with a 1 meter lead.
> They both need to be joined.
> Does the length of the lead determine the method used to make the connection ?
> 
> Peace out   ...   Derek


This is what the discussion is all about ... dont feel bad ... according to what i am reading in this thread ... most LED lighting connection being done since LED were introduced are illegally connected. 

How to connect a flood light with a short cable to the electrical installation.

Generally a light would have a termination point ... for example a batton holder would have a a screw terminal on the light .. you would run your house wire or twin+e to the light and connect it at the light fitting using the connector provided in the light fitting ... same with an old 4 ft fitting for example ..there were connectors made available inside the fitting pre connected to earth (the metal part) ... old floodlights had terminals/connectors inside the light fitting ... so no "junction box" was required.

However with LED lighting ... manufacturers have made it a little more difficult (cost cutting ...smaller enclosures etc) ...as in the case with LED flood lights ... and LEd 2/4/5 ft fittings ... the connection point in the fitting is no longer available ... hence this thread ... it is no longer a simple connect the twin +e or house wire inside the fitting.

I dont know when the SABS rules changed making it no longer the manufacturers responsibility to provide a connection point ... or if ther ever was one ??? 

You will notice that even the 5 ft  LED fitting ...now has a short tail making it literally impossible to reach the conduit box ... which we have established is not a junction box and can therefore not be used to connect the short tail ... which means you have to provide a "junction box" to connect the tail ...using "connectors" ... then run a cable from the round conduit box ... were you can join the wires to link up parts of the installation.

According to what i am reading here ... even if the cable is long to reach a conduit box ... you cannot connect the fitting inside the conduit box ... a separate "junction box" with connectors must be used. 

The bottom line the LED fitting suppliers have just made it the electricians responsibility to supply a junction box to terminate their fitting ... a clever cost cutting idea for them a headache for all electricians.

If you were smart and had a contact in a plastic injection moulding comapany ... you would be manufacturing a small "junction box" with terminals to be used for this application. 

I feel sorry for all those fellas who have signed off COC's with connections in conduit boxes ...eeeeish. 

back to my pipe joint ... its not the junction box ... merely a means to extend the tail to the junction box ( it is illegal ...because it is not disgned for the purpse)... no more using round conduit boxes for twin+E  ... you gonna have to fit a junction box with connectors even if the tail is long enough.

Leecat ... i hope you are learning something and will continue to add value to these discussions.

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## Dave A

> All conduit through boxes, whether they are end boxes ( one way ), 2 way, 3 way or 4 way are *not connection boxes or terminal boxes*. They are draw boxes or inspection boxes much the same as inspection elbows, inspection tee pieces etc.  ( Manufacturer's specs )
> 
> Don't feel alone, brother, I've been an electrical contractor for 45 years and only became aware of this about 2 years ago.


Am I ever in for an interesting discussion with my electricians tomorrow morning...  :EEK!:

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## Trevor Varner

> Am I ever in for an interesting discussion with my electricians tomorrow morning...


Could someone please show me where round boxes are not allowed to have terminations done in them, I can understand joints not allowed in T pieces etc.
Thank you

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## Derlyn

This thread was started by Just Johann requesting some input regarding the connecting of down lights.
For me there has always been uncertainty as to the correct way to do it.

Here in our valley it is drummed into our heads not to use strip connectors, but to ferrule and crimp and insolate with heatshrink.
Someone has mentioned that ferrules are not connectors. Now I'm super confused. Ferrules are manufactured and sold for the sole purpose of efficiently connecting one conductor to another, yet it is said that they are not connectors. What should we use ferrules for if not for connecting conductors ?

Be that as it may, the thread changed direction with Ian's brilliant suggestion and we all wondered off course. Sorry about that Just Johan.

Back to downlights and connecting them.

Even the downlights are evolving to having pig tails like in Johan's photo's. Up to now I have been crimping with ferrules as recommended by the main indunas in our area. 
From different viewpoints in this thread it would seem as if this is not the recommended method.

Took a bit of time out of my hectic schedule and checked out all the wholesalers here to find manufacturer's solutions to both connecting downlights and spotlights.

This is what I came up with.



On the right is a connection box that is not weatherproof and is ideal for downlights. It's called a RIP BOX available from ARB for R29.

On the left is an in line connector. Totally weatherproof and ideal for spotlights. Also available from ARB for R45.

Hope this helps,

Peace out   ...   Derek

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Dave A (07-Oct-20)

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## ians

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u-Io...aroundtheHOUSE

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## Dave A

> Could someone please show me where round boxes are not allowed to have terminations done in them, I can understand joints not allowed in T pieces etc.


I would love some clarity on that too.




> On the right is a connection box that is not weatherproof and is ideal for downlights. It's called a RIP BOX available from ARB for R29.


It's great to see that the RIP Box has come down to a far more competitive price from when it was first launched.

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## JustJohann

Derlyn it started out as connection to down lighters but the rest is not really wondering of the point as it is about how we make connections to be safe. Back to the point of the round box. Yes most light fittings have a connector on them. But what if its one of those lights that just have the piece of flex with the holder on the end ? Also what do you do if you have more than 1 neutral as most holders cant take 2 as they are barely big enough for one ?  Not being funny but using a round box to make connections in then to me seems perfectly fine as it ticks all the boxes. The cables are secured ( if you use glands )no live conductors can be touched with the standard test finger with out removing a cover with a tool ( thats if you put on a cover) and can be serviced if it is in a place where you can reach it and you use block connectors to join the cables. To make it maintenance free if it is in a place where it cant be reached use ferrules and heat shrink. I would personally not just twist the wires together and tape them or use a screwit. I have seen more screwits come loose with out much effort than I have seen correctly selected block connectors melt. Correct me if I am wrong but I have seen joints in round boxes in houses with black metal tubing,black plastic tubing,white plastic tubing. The little round box has been there long before any of the other fancy junction boxes we have today has come on the market and I think thats why it has been used for joining cables for as long as most electricians can remember. The are also to me much sturdier and hold the cables beter. I will even admit that I have used them a few times to even make joints thats buried under the ground. I stuffed them full of that black putty compound. I know of at least one thats probably 18 years old and still in the ground and they are still working away with no problems.


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## AndyD

> Am I ever in for an interesting discussion with my electricians tomorrow morning...


How did the toolbox talk go?

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## Dave A

> How did the toolbox talk go?


In this age of masks, I couldn't see what the mouths were doing. But all eyes went as big as saucers. Feedback is when it comes to Durban, there are connections in round boxes virtually everywhere we go...

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## ians

> In this age of masks, I couldn't see what the mouths were doing. But all eyes went as big as saucers. Feedback is when it comes to Durban, there are connections in round boxes virtually everywhere we go...


no surprise  :Smile:  

Personally i have never come across a building in Durban where round conduit boxes are not being used as connection/junction boxes for lights ... 5 amp socket outlets ... dome lids with extractor fans ... you name it ... it is being used as a junction box for terminating cables 

In fact while collecting equipment at AC/DC ... all the wago demo units display are using round conduit boxes as junction boxes.

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## AndyD

> In this age of masks, I couldn't see what the mouths were doing. But all eyes went as big as saucers. Feedback is when it comes to Durban, there are connections in round boxes virtually everywhere we go...


 Yeah, it's standard practice everywhere I've been in SA. Given the regs defer to the manufacturers instructions, if a round box wasn't marked specifically to forbid internal connections and there wasn't a manufacturers spec sheet available on site would you fail the installation for a CoC?

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## JustJohann

Originally from Cape town and I can tell you its as common as anything. Also here in Bloemfontein where I am currently.

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## GCE

> All conduit through boxes, whether they are end boxes ( one way ), 2 way, 3 way or 4 way are *not connection boxes or terminal boxes*. They are draw boxes or inspection boxes much the same as inspection elbows, inspection tee pieces etc.  ( Manufacturer's specs )
> 
> Don't feel alone, brother, I've been an electrical contractor for 45 years and only became aware of this about 2 years ago.
> 
> Peace out   ..   Derek


Hi 

I have searched the regulations and the theory over no joints in a round box as been bugging us in the workshop.

I was with an AIA this afternoon and posed the question on joints in a round box or drawbox - His statement was " that is what a drawbox is for " .

I am now confident that we can continue using round boxes as joint boxes.

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## Derlyn

Hi GCE
It seems as if the left hand of the AIA doesn't know what the right hand is saying or doing .

It was the same AIA that informed a senior member of the ECA in our valley that connections are not allowed in an
Inspection box or drawbox.

It had nothing to do with the regulations, but manufacturer's specifications apparently.  He might have been wrong.

I have stopped using round boxes for connections and use connection boxes or terminal boxes instead. ( just in case )

Peace out  ..  Derek

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## ians

> Hi GCE
> It seems as if the left hand of the AIA doesn't know what the right hand is saying or doing .
> 
> It was the same AIA that informed a senior member of the ECA in our valley that connections are not allowed in an
> Inspection box or drawbox.
> 
> It had nothing to do with the regulations, but manufacturer's specifications apparently.  He might have been wrong.
> 
> I have stopped using round boxes for connections and use connection boxes or terminal boxes instead. ( just in case )
> ...


Every single electrical installations would be illegal in KZN if this was true ... from what I remember back in the day when i bothered with rules and regs ... you were not allowed to make joints in TEEs and elbows ... they had to be done in junction (round boxes)  boxes.

Every single light fitting in in office flats and the like with junction boxes would have to be chopped out and replaced ... I cant see that happening.

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## Derlyn

Ian

Nobody said that all round boxes with connections in them are illegal and must be removed at once as you are suggesting.

It's the same as with plugs.
All installations with old plugs are not all of a sudden illegal and all of them having to be removed.

It's what one refers to as a phased approach.

That is what I am doing. Not ripping out all round boxes I come across with connections in them ( that would be too extreme ) but at the same time not adding anymore.

Peace out   ...   Derek

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## GCE

It makes no sense that a round box cannot be a joint box and the statement " manufacturers spec " when the same manufacturer makes a 6 Amp skirting socket to fit to the round box - There is a joint happening 

I had a Chat to the East London ECA and the AIA that made the statement is no longer practicing as such - We came to the same conclusion that round boxes used in the correct application are fine ( not in weather or 10 pieces of T&E jointed that the lid cant close ).

As said previously - AIA says no problem now and I have never known Mark to go back on what he says

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Dave A (20-Nov-20)

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## Derlyn

> I had a Chat to the East London ECA and the AIA that made the statement is no longer practicing as such


Thanks GCE

By your quoted response it seems as if an AIA actually did make that statement.
Like I said, maybe they made a mistake.

That's why this forum is so lekker.
Uncertainty over an issue usually results in certainty.

Peace out  ...  Derek

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## Tang

> Hi Sean
> 
> It's not just a personal preference.
> 
> There are a number of factors to take into account. ie.  SANS 10142-1 ,  The Occupational Health and Safety Act , AND Manufacturer's specifications.
> Most people forget about the last 2 mentioned above.
> 
> All conduit through boxes, whether they are end boxes ( one way ), 2 way, 3 way or 4 way are *not connection boxes or terminal boxes*. They are draw boxes or inspection boxes much the same as inspection elbows, inspection tee pieces etc.  ( Manufacturer's specs )
> 
> ...


I suspect the space in tee pieces and elbows were the main issue.

Sent from my Beam using Tapatalk

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## ians

> I suspect the space in tee pieces and elbows were the main issue.
> 
> Sent from my Beam using Tapatalk


Tees and elbows where what we use to refer to as a draw box ... what we used when doing tube and wiring with "house wire" to feed the fish tape or pull and feed the wiring.

Round boxes where refered to as junction boxes ... however very sledom used as "junction boxes" other than to store the wiring for the light terminations. 

Here is something to think about ... back in the old days we very seldom use the junction boxes to join wires ... 

for example ... a single lever switch had 3 wires ... 2 only if it was the last switch in the circuit ... the reason we didnt cut corners ... the wires ran from  the DB to the first switch then from the first switch to the second switch ... the neutral was pulled from the DB to the first light point ... then to the next.

Over time we started using the boxes to save time and money ... so we would fit a 3 way cut the wire and use a skrewit to join the wires ... saving time and money ... resulting in cheaper quotes ... which results in more work ... with the lack of suitably qualified inspectors ... or ones who would take the time to climb in the roof and inspect the "junction boxes" it got easier and easier to cut corner and save money ... I recall the council inspector arriving on a commercial site ... collected his "boxes" ... walked around with his asssitant ... had a look see and left with a smile. 

So this topic is actually rather interesting ... at the end of the day ... over time we just started using the "junction box" to join wires is it actually legal ... we would need to go back in time and refer to the old regs when PVC wiring originated.

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## Dave A

> So this topic is actually rather interesting ... at the end of the day ... over time we just started using the "junction box" to join wires is it actually legal ... we would need to go back in time and refer to the old regs when PVC wiring originated.


The introduction of surfix wiring may have had something to do with it.

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## BEVIN

Please show me a pic of a legal junction box and a termination box that I can use please.

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## ians

https://hager.com/uk/products/h/j804...nals-lighting-

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## ians

https://www.futurelight.co.za/produc...iant=494415325

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## ians

Now that I have ed 3 in PDF ... it makes life so much easier when searching for stuff. 


6.3.7.2 Joints and terminations shall not 

b) be made in any connector, bend, elbow or tee-piece of a conduit, 



by the way ... if I need a quick solution ... I do carry a few of the cheapie conduit joints ... I have found a re-entry gel which prevent the ingress of water  :Wink:  

However I have found a better solution "not one of my favourite companies"  ... MCE have a range of wire connectors/gel joint kits  and little black terminal junction boxes (IP68) 2 pole -6 pole (pg 45 and 49 of the catalog) ... I buy these things by the dozen and they save a lot of time ... and hopefully SANS approved ... so I wont get word hiding about my pipe joint  :Smile:

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## Leecatt

> Hi Sean
> 
> It's not just a personal preference.
> 
> There are a number of factors to take into account. ie.  SANS 10142-1 ,  The Occupational Health and Safety Act , AND Manufacturer's specifications.
> Most people forget about the last 2 mentioned above.
> 
> All conduit through boxes, whether they are end boxes ( one way ), 2 way, 3 way or 4 way are *not connection boxes or terminal boxes*. They are draw boxes or inspection boxes much the same as inspection elbows, inspection tee pieces etc.  ( Manufacturer's specs )
> 
> ...


I find this picture interesting then...

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## Derlyn

> I find this picture interesting then...


Good morning Leecat and a Happy New Year to you and yours.

We had a lengthy discussion regarding the above ( read the whole post ) and I'm almost 100% certain that consensus was reached that a statement made by an AIA inspector regarding no connections in round boxes was a mistake. It was also mentioned during the very interesting discussion that the same inspector is not practicing anymore.

I, at the time, considering that this statement came from an AIA inspector and was brought to my attention by someone on the ECA committee in our area, thought it important enough to give it a mention here on the forum. As I said, it turns out that this statement was incorrect, whatever the reason, but at the same time we are all wiser following the debate that arose from and around it.

Cheers and peace out   ...   Derek.

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Dave A (04-Jan-22)

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## Leecatt

Thank you. It seems I am guilty of not reading the full discussion but at the same time I am relieved that the connections are allowed in the said box, as I have done many before.
Compliments of the season to you and all here. 

Sent from my SM-A705FN using Tapatalk

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## ACEsterhuizen

https://ecasa.co.za/technical/what-i...-ceiling-void/

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Derlyn (05-Jan-22), Leecatt (06-Jan-22)

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