# Archive > Open content archive > MLM Industry Forum >  Give For Life

## Hane

Hi I'm HanÃ¨ and this is my first post but I would really like to tell you about Give for Life. Its the same as U-Care and On-Track just with more options.

Basically you make a monthly donation that gets payed into an account that is managed by BOE and audited by PricewaterhouseCooper and the Law Review Project. 

There is a R150 registration fee and then there are 4 packages to choose from
1. Bronze R189 p.m and you receive 50% commission
2. Silver R250 p.m you receive 55% commission
3. Gold R500 p.m you receive 60% commission
4. Platinum R1000 p.m you receive 65% commission
Commission is payed out to 5 levels.

The charities that they support are:
Â· World Wide Fund for Nature South Africa;
Â· South African Red Cross Society;
Â· National Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals (NSPCA);
Â· The Cancer Association of South Africa (CANSA);
Â· Cotlands;
Â· CHOC;
Â· Reach For A Dream;
Â· ACFS Community and Feeding Scheme;
Â· Ithemba Trust.
Participants have the option of donating 50% of the Charity portion to a charity of their own choice!!

Give for life is endorsed by several celebrities namely:
	Â· Victor Matfield
	Â· Ryk Neethling
	Â· Arnold Geerdts
	Â· John-Laffnie de Jager
	Â· Heinz & Alette Winckler
	Â· Hykie Berg
	Â· Bala Brothers
	Â· Altus Theart
	Â· Andrew Thompson
	Â· Zetske van Pletzen

If you would like to receive more info or have any questions please ask and I'll try and answer it.  :Smile:

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## Marq

So let me get this straight...

I pay R1000 to a charity every month....only....
65% goes to your commission
say 30% goes to admin fees (usual cut isnt it?) .... price waterhouse audit fees BOA bank charges etc (these guys are expensive) and then...whoa ...what about the other 5 level commission payouts........say 5% 

R 0 of my intended R1,000 actually goes to a charity.

Great charity and philanthropic effort. :Applaud: 

Why why not just have a scheme where you put the R1000 in the bank every month and then pay it all back to the donors based on who paid it in first.

Is there a tax angle here?

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## Hane

20% is payed out to charity 20% is for admin fees and the rest is commissions

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## Hane

Sorry just read I dont get the 65% commission if you pay R1000 YOU get 65% commission on all the money earned by your downline.

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## Hane

If I can give you an example. 

You pay R1000 pm
You get 5 other people to sign up and they each take the R189 pm. They each get 5 people for 5 levels down. 

Now you can go and give R1000 to charity or you can earn R147 609 for charities per month. 

Now that will make a big differance in a charity's budget. 

To top it all of you earn R33 000 pm

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## desA

A pyramid scheme, it seems to be.

Why not channel the money into worthy causes directly, instead of using 'agents' to pay it for you? Goodness, a sucker must be born every second.

Friend, I have seen first hand, in Laos, what the end NGO's get up with donor funds. It is a whole scam & skim industry in itself. Less than 10% of donor fund reaches the final intended recipients, from what I've seen. These are all the top names, to boot.

Sorry, I really do not like this kind of stuff. Sorry if I've offended you.

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## Hane

No problem but this isn't a pyramid scheme it is a legit network marketing opportunity that can benefit charities. The Law Review Project would not have approved it if it isn't legit. 

The reason why I like it is because I know how many people are out there that says that they would give to charities if they had more money. That doesn't help the charities. This is an opportunity for that person to earn extra income and give to charities. They can even give more out of their own pocket as well. Then the charities will get even more. 

Charities are suffering because society is suffering. If a person is going to look into mlm then way cant a charity profit from that?

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## desA

> Charities are suffering because society is suffering. If a person is going to look into mlm then way cant a charity profit from that?


There we go then. Why don't you donate your time for free? This would be incredibly generous.

I'd also remind you that the current financial crisis began with a number of legal financial instruments. Look where it all ended up.   :Confused: 

I do apologise if I've hurt your feelings, but, boy oh boy, I've seen this kind of scheme in action in so many flavours. The end result is always the same.

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## Hane

I do give my time for free, why do you think I joined a mlm that benefit charity and not just my own pocket?

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## wynn

Don't be a 'Patsy'
20% to the charity 20% to the admin and the rest to commissions 5 levels deep.
Whew that means 80% of my charity is missing the mark. that is worse than the Church.
Rather give to the 'Salvation Army' at least you know that more than 70% will hit the mark because the people that run the show do it for charity and a stipend.
They make sure that the money is only used for genuine charity, food, clothes and accommodation, not me too, hands out, I need another bottle, bums.

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Dave A (18-Jan-10), desA (18-Jan-10)

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## Hane

True but would you rather receive 100% of R1000 from 1 person or 20% that will lead to R147 609 as example above? Not enough people support charities. That's the big problem. With this its a way to get more people to support charities because most people are just looking out for number one.

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## Hane

> There we go then. Why don't you donate your time for free? This would be incredibly generous.
> 
> I'd also remind you that the current financial crisis began with a number of legal financial instruments. Look where it all ended up.  
> 
> I do apologise if I've hurt your feelings, but, boy oh boy, I've seen this kind of scheme in action in so many flavours. The end result is always the same.


I do give my time free :Smile:  Why do you think I joined a mlm that support charity and not just my own pocket?

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## desA

> True but would you rather receive 100% of R1000 from 1 person or 20% that will lead to R147 609 as example above? Not enough people support charities. That's the big problem. With this its a way to get more people to support charities because most people are just looking out for number one.


These incremental vacuum pipelines only serve the pockets of the vacuum pipe operators. This is a scam. I am astonished that you have the gall to continue your salespitch.

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## Hane

I'm not pitching, do realise that I would like to see more money going to the charity and less to the pockets of the agents but for me its swallowing the bitter pill to get more money to the charity. Do you know that some charities are so desperate for money that they would get a sms short code that is charged at R15 and they only receive R6? They are so desperate for money that that every cent help. Do you think that if I go around and asked everyone to donate R189 to an animal charity that lots of people would give? Tell them that they can make money out of it then more people are interested? Its sad but very true.

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## desA

Ok, Hane. I'll bow out of your pitch now, else it will just continue on its trajectory.

Were this a telephone call, I'd have cut in the first 5 seconds...  :Big Grin:

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## Hane

:Big Grin:

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## Dave A

If the total admin cost *including* the MLM incentive came to under 30% I'd have no particular complaint. If that total admin cost was under 50% I'd be only mildly cynical. At 80% towards "costs" I confess my BS detectors are so inflamed it's extremely difficult to take seriously the claim that this is motivated by charity.



> Give for life is endorsed by several celebrities namely:
> 	Â· Victor Matfield
> 	Â· Ryk Neethling
> 	Â· Arnold Geerdts
> 	Â· John-Laffnie de Jager
> 	Â· Heinz & Alette Winckler
> 	Â· Hykie Berg
> 	Â· Bala Brothers
> 	Â· Altus Theart
> ...


You wouldn't happen to have scanned copies of those letters of endorsement by any chance? And are these good folk aware that only 20% of the proceeds goes to charities?



> Is there a tax angle here?


By my understanding of tax legislation, there is zero prospect of this being seen as a tax deductible donation to charity by the taxman. Also it can't be a registered charity because a minimum of 70% has to go to charity (from memory - could be out by a bit, but certainly not 50% out). Given the structure, you'd stand a better chance claiming your contribution as a business expense towards this MLM "charity fundraising" business.



> I do give my time free Why do you think I joined a mlm that support charity and not just my own pocket?


Charity first, right?  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):  The problem with that is when you say...



> Do you think that if I go around and asked everyone to donate R189 to an animal charity that lots of people would give? Tell them that they can make money out of it then more people are interested? Its sad but very true.


...you're arguing against yourself. Rationalisation is an amazing thing.

I'm amazed the Law Review Project gave this the thumbs up as not being a pyramid scheme (frankly I'm sceptical they've even looked at this aspect). For starters it fails the product test. This seems little more than a classic pyramid scheme with a very flimsy charity wrapper for camoflage.

If anyone goes for it, please admit at least to yourself it's not because you're all come over with feeling charitable - you're doing it for the money. If you were doing it for charity, you'd be giving the money straight to the Community Chest, Gift of the Givers, Red Cross etc.

Personally I think the best thing about this scheme is it demonstrates so wonderfully what "making a positive contribution to society" has descended to in South Africa nowadays.

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## Hane

You can have a look at their video presentation where all these celebs voice their opinions. http://www.hefty.co.za/fundraising

The reason behind if you tell people that they can make money out of it is that R2 is better then no Rand. They money that the charities receive is more then they would have so why not use peoples needs for extra income to help charities. I would donate a lot of the money that I make back to charity directly. It opens up my time to volunteer more while I can earn a living I can help charities. 

The thing for me is that charities aren't getting donations so this opens up the door for more people to donate where they wouldn't have. 

Peoples greed earns money for charity. Why should they spend the time that they would have on another mlm which would only benefit them and the organisation when they do the same and charities benefit. Don't tell me that people could go and donate money from their earning because they don't.

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## Kevm

> The reason behind if you tell people that they can make money out of it is that R2 is better then no Rand. They money that the charities receive is more then they would have so why not use peoples needs for extra income to help charities. 
> 
> Peoples greed earns money for charity. .


I could not resist!

Yes R2 is better than R0, isnt it so dandy that you can now earn money off other peoples "donations" to "charity". 

And the fact that "Peoples greed earns money for charity" isnt this a bit of an oxymoron? Like "Creative Accounting", or "Deafening Silence".

I like to consider myself open minded, however a mlm based on charitable donations. Its just suger coating for money changing hands and based on how much passes by your hands you take some. 
The worst is that charities that need money, are possibly getting there R2. But a few other people/organisations are taking a fat cut along the way.

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## Hane

I'm not going to try and make anyone see why I would join a mlm like this or why they should. I know why I did it! Not everyone is going to do it for the same reasons, not everyone is going to understand why I can see it as very beneficial to charities. Yes I would prefer that everyone that joins or have a problem with the concept go and donate but they wont. I dont see the money that gets spent on the expenses I only see what the charities get and that can be a lot, a lot that they DID NOT receive before.

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## sterne.law@gmail.com

I think this issue popped up about 2/3 weeks ago. The concept involves a monthly amount of which a percentage goes to charity. Charities endorsed by leading celebs. As you recruit people so your dividend increases.
I have not gone into it too much, but it seems like  a straight pyramid scheme, only that some money goes to the charities. Have I missed something? :Confused:

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## BigRed

> ....Charities endorsed by leading celebs.


 to fund their dinners :Wink: 




> As you recruit people so your dividend increases.


 now this sounds a bit suspicious....

I am all for giving to a charity in lieu of sending off calender and pens at year end to our customers.

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## Dave A

> I think this issue popped up about 2/3 weeks ago.


Both threads even had the same title  :Wink: 
If you're wondering why your post is now on page 3, I took the liberty of merging the two threads.

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## sterne.law@gmail.com

> Both threads even had the same title 
> If you're wondering why your post is now on page 3, I took the liberty of merging the two threads.


Great now, having read all, I am even more amazed at how this is not a pyramid scheme.
As to the celebrities - the celebrities are endorsing the charities. The give for life people in turn endorse the charities, this does not however mean that the celebs are endorsing the give for life concept.
Every person that supports this idea harps on about teh charity aspect and evades any questions on how it works. It takes a few tough questions and some cross-examination before people answer straight.
The jist is you give your money - 10 5 of that goes to charity and the rest goes into a fund. You recruit people and get paid a commision for that. you also earn comision for the people that your recruitees recruit. Now if that is not the very definition of a pyramid, what is?
Make no mistake, either some one is very clever and we are missing something, or tehy are so clever that by making it so obvious that it is a pyramid that we presume it cannot be.
Anyone know where the ponzi man is?

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## AndyD

Yeah, it does seem to fit the definition of pyramid scheme just with bright lights, smoke and mirrors.

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## desA

For me, the 'pyramid alert' screamed within the first 5 seconds of reading the OP.

I have seen good friend crash-&-burn over the years - all nice folks, who eventually poured their money & efforts into making the pyramid-builders rich. I hate pyramid schemes with a passion.

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## Hane

Pyramids doesn't have an end that's why people lose money. Network marketing must have a product or service that they sell and they must end so that everyone have equal opportunities to make money. 

Now if you take that and apply it to Give For Life.
1. They sell the service of raising funds for charities
2. Its only 5 levels deep so you can only earn commission up to your 5th level.

Give For Life is a branch of The Giving Organisation with Archbishop Desmond Tutu as its Patron. On the 11 Feb 2010 they have reached the R46 mil mark for charities. They hope to reach R100 mil by the end of this year with the help of Give For Life.

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## desA

The man is so slick... have to give him credit for trying.

The snake-oil showroom is down the road.

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## Hane

If this is a scheme then why will reputable charities link their names with it. If they didn't stand to benefit from this they wouldn't do it. You can take a look at the letter that links the charities to Give For Life here.

Sorry about the quality but I had to take it out of their full brochure as I didn't think you would download it to read the whole thing.

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## Hane

> As to the celebrities - the celebrities are endorsing the charities. The give for life people in turn endorse the charities, this does not however mean that the celebs are endorsing the give for life concept.


If the celebs didn't endorse the Give For Life Concept then they would Victor Matfield - SA Rugby Player say in his video that he proudly supports Give For Life? 

Go to www.giveforlife.hefty.co.za and listen to the celeb videos they all say that they Proudly support Give For Life.

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## sterne.law@gmail.com

Lets go through this logically and cast emotion aside.
There are obviously two schools of thought, those that see this as a genuine article and those that see it as a pyramid scheme.
Lets make no mention of the charity issue and the admin costs etc.
Those that are against, myself included have the viewpoint that teh charity is a cover up. perhaps we have missed something because we are looking at it from a clouded view.
In light of the above let us look at the straight maths -
So Hane, as the PRO Give for Life man, I am addressing the question to you and please do not take it as a personal affront where I refer to you, it is simply to keep matters simple and you have certainly made a passionate and strong stand on teh issue
Lets work on the R189 a month membership -
A percent goes to charity, some to costs and the rest is distributed as a commision? Is this correct, in a nut shell.
You get a  people under you and that person pays their monthly amount, and you get a commision on that contribution. That person in turn gets some one, and they get the commision from the new member, while you get a commision from the first member and then, a smaller commision, from the person recruited by your member?
Am I correct so far?

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## Hane

Yes you get commission to the 5th level

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## Hane

> Those that are against, myself included have the viewpoint that teh charity is a cover up. perhaps we have missed something because we are looking at it from a clouded view.


I would just like to point out that if you think that the charities are only a cover up, wont the charities who have to protect their integrate also feel the same way? If that would be the case please take a look at the NCPSA's website http://www.nspca.co.za if you scroll down and look at the bottom right where they mention projects that they receive funds form you will see Give For Life.

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## sterne.law@gmail.com

Okay so, lets use 30% as an example of the amount put to commision -
If you recruit me(I use the word recruit only because it is easier) you get 15% of my monthly fee.
I then recruit Peter Pan - Now I get 15 % of Peter Pan and you get 5% of Peter Pan monthly fee (we working with R189)
Peter Pan recruits Wendy - So Peter gets 15% comm on wendy R189
I get 5% of Wendy, plus 15% of Peter Pan
You get 5% of Wendy, 5% of Peter Pan and 15% of me
The charity in turn is getting 10% of You, Me, Peter Pan and Wendy - a total of R75.60 being ten percent of  4members X R189 = R756
Am I correct so far, the actual percentages aside, just trying to keep the maths simple?

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## Hane

No Charities get 20% of each sign up 
(I'm going to use actual % it makes it easier for me to explain)
I sign up R189 - charity gets 20% = R38
U sign up R189 - I get 33% = R63 Charity gets 20% = R38
Peter Pan sign up - I get 6.5% = R12 U get 33% = R63 Charity gets 20% = R38
Wendy sign up - I get 4% = R8 U get 6.5% = R12 Peter gets 33% = R63 Charity gets 20% = R38 

So that is R189 x 4 = R756
Charity get R152 and the rest goes to commission and admin fees

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## Hane

If I get 1 person to sign up and everyone else also gets 1 person to the 5th level. So in total there is 5 people.

I would get R95 from my recruiters and the charities would get R189 from my recruiters

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## sterne.law@gmail.com

Okay good, real percentage is best. So by 5 levels we need to add in one more person, lets say Tinkerbell.

Team Leader (You) 
Anthony(me)
Peter Pan
Wendy
Tinkerbell
Comm Structure -
1st - 33%
2nd - 6,5 %
3rd - 4 %
4th - ????

And to be clear on the only 5 levels -
After Tinkerbell you cannot have more people in that chain, but can start another chain with a direct recruit?
In turn I can recruit one more after Tinkerbell and must then start another chain. My new has no benefits to you, it is now independent?

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## Hane

Commisson For the 5 levels if you take the R189 Bronze package
1. 33.33%
2. 6.5%
3. 4%
4. 3.17%
5. 3%

I will only receive commission up to the 5th level. So after Tinkerbel I cant get commission. Who ever she recruits is level 6

I can start a new leg and receive commission up to the 5 level. Whoever you sign up I will get commission from as well. They will always be my level 3, 4 and 5. So i will get commission from anyone that is signed up from my 5 levels, horizontally. I can never receive commission from any level after 5, vertically.

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## Hane

I just noticed that Tinkerbel is level 4 
1. Anthony(me)
2. Peter Pan
3. Wendy
4. Tinkerbell
5. Someone
After this I cant get more commission
6. Someone Else

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## sterne.law@gmail.com

Okay good. So you can start new legs once you have 5 under you.
To be clear on the horizontal maths -
When i start a new leg, you obviously cannot get 33% again, so you get 6,5% 4% 3.17%  and 3%  OR comm form the first 4 people under em? Have I got this part right?

Secondly the breakdown in a full single chain is as follows -
R189 a month
Charity got - 20 % from everyone
Commisions total 49,67% being(33 + 6.5 + 4 + 3.17 + 3)
And the association gets 30.33%

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## Hane

> Okay good. So you can start new legs once you have 5 under you.
> To be clear on the horizontal maths -
> When i start a new leg, you obviously cannot get 33% again, so you get 6,5% 4% 3.17%  and 3%  OR comm form the first 4 people under em? Have I got this part right?


Yes that's right




> Secondly the breakdown in a full single chain is as follows -
> R189 a month
> Charity got - 20 % from everyone
> Commisions total 49,67% being(33 + 6.5 + 4 + 3.17 + 3)
> And the association gets 30.33%


Yes, but they round the numbers so for bronze commission payouts are 50%. The association gets less as you go up with the packages E.g. the platinum packages pays out 65% in commission, charities get 20% and the association gets 15%

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## sterne.law@gmail.com

I like the rounding numbers(i must say 3.17 irritates me) :Smile:

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## Hane

:Smile:

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## Hane

Now what is your conclusion or do you have more questions? Will gladly answer  :Smile:

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## sterne.law@gmail.com

Okay, so if my maths is correct. You need 2 complete chains under you(total50% commision) to recoup your R189? Also working on the premise that people under you have no recruits or horizontal chains.

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## Hane

Yes or you need 3 people directly under you. You are responsible for your first level so you can get as many people direclty under you as you want.

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## Hane

I recruited you. You recruit Peter Pan. Peter Pan recruits Wendy, wendy recruits tinkerbel and tinkerbel recruits someone else.
1. Anthony(you)
2. Peter Pan
3. Wendy
4. Tinkerbell
5. Someone

After I have recruited you I start working on my next recruit and so forth. When I have 3 recruits then my monthly contribution is covered.

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## sterne.law@gmail.com

Quite correct , 3 direct people would be the quickest. They in turn will not recoup their monthly money until they have a complete chain, times two, or as you say 3 people directly under them. And of course there are a numbe rof different permutations, but this is teh starting point.

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## Hane

Yes

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## sterne.law@gmail.com

Oh, a very important question, nearly forgot.
Do you sign a contract. in other words must you commit for 6 months or 12 months or some time period?
OR can you be out by giving a months notice? Important, cant believe I nearly forgot. :Headbutt:

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## Hane

When you sign up you can change your mind with in 5 days after that you must give 3 months notice

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## Hane

What is your conclusion?

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## sterne.law@gmail.com

Sorry had to go out.
So depending on what stage of development you are at, at any one stage there are some making money(maybe have 4 chains for eg), some breaking even(2 chains) and some who are not yet making yet(say have 3 members), all the while the charity gains on every recruit?

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## Hane

Yes

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## sterne.law@gmail.com

Will return this chat tomorrow

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## sterne.law@gmail.com

Then we have concluded as follows -
the charity makes money no matter what.
The association makes money no matter what.
Depending on what stage you are and how many members under you and how many teams - there are people making more than they are contributing, some are making the same as what they contribute(obviously only initially) and there are people that. And there are people making less than they contribute.
For people making less than their contribution they need to recruit more people. these people in turn are making less than they contribute.
Using the single chain concept, as per earlier posts, a person needs 2 chains to break even. 
Each chain needs 5 members, all of which are contributing more than they earn in commision. As 2 chains are required that means for 1 person breaking even there are *10 earning less than they contribute or running at a loss.*
Yes, people need to recruit members to make profit, but at some stage there will be no more people to recruit. Furthermore the percentage of people that will recruit 10 persons becomes less and less as their are more members recruited. As this happens so people will quit exasperating the issue. 
In light of the fact that 10 people are hurt for every 1 happy person, that is poor. The top person(association) gains at these peoples expense. We call this unjust enrichment.

Now, while we do not deny that the charity benefits. And perhaps on a legal, somehow, point of view this is not a pyramid, and yes, as long as you build your team, you have made your money back and make money, there at least 10 people harmed for every single happy person, surely you cannot deny that all that glitters is not gold. The ramifications increase as the pyramid grows.

And ultimately people do this not for charity but to make money at other peoples expense because  am afraid this is what happens.

So, the question is - do you deny that people will be harmed and lose money because of this?

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## Dave A

Who gets the profits of the association that's collecting the admin fee?

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## sterne.law@gmail.com

> Who gets the profits of the association that's collecting the admin fee?


A very CLEVER person who will collect millions for charity, amke MILLIONS for himself, make good money for 1 tenth(maximum) of the members and lose MANY MILLIONS for the others, who those who spout the charity angle as an excuse for their own greed, are not concerned for.
In fact one should question the integrity of the charities - as harsh as that sounds.

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## AndyD

I tend to look at these schemes more holistically but I realise if it comes to a court decision the nitty gritty about percentages and leg lengths would be very relevant.

For me there's no product, no inventory and as pointed out people are recruiting others to enrich themselves. Basically the emphasis on recruitment is way too high so in my eyes it's a pyramid scheme. I'm not a legal expert and I don't even know much about MLM systems but I think that the fact charities make a small percentage is smoke and mirrors, not a product or service given that the clear motivation is recruitment for self enrichment. It's very cleverly structured and was obviously designed this way with the illegality of pyramid schemes but I know where it sits in my view.

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desA (17-Feb-10)

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## Hane

> Who gets the profits of the association that's collecting the admin fee?


The Giving Organisation is getting the money that is collected to pay bills, staff and to fund other projects to raise funds for charities. Remember that Give For Life is only one branch of their fundraising efforts. They have other projects that also benefits the same charities

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## Hane

> Yes, people need to recruit members to make profit, but at some stage there will be no more people to recruit. Furthermore the percentage of people that will recruit 10 persons becomes less and less as their are more members recruited. As this happens so people will quit exasperating the issue. 
> In light of the fact that 10 people are hurt for every 1 happy person, that is poor. The top person(association) gains at these peoples expense. We call this unjust enrichment.


People wont be "used up" or else no network marketing venture is worth it. 

The top person(association) is the Giving Organisation that runs different fund raising projects to raise funds for charities. So even if the association is gaining more money that means that the charities will be earning more.





> So, the question is - do you deny that people will be harmed and lose money because of this?


Not everyone that ventures into network marketing will make a success of it no matter what they sell.

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## Dave A

> The Giving Organisation is getting the money that is collected to pay bills, staff and to fund other projects to raise funds for charities.


So this is a registered not-for-profit charity organisation with a constitution to that effect?

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## desA

Sounds a lot like the Madoff feeder-funds concept into his ponzi scheme.

The only difference is that there is a small exit flow to charities. Hold-on - Madoff also gave generously to charities.  Made-off with a lot of people's money, he did...  :Rofl:

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## Hane

> The Giving Organisation is an independent Trust, owned and managed by its beneficiaries, audited by PricewaterhouseCoopers and is honoured to have Archbishop Desmond Tutu as its Patron.  The Giving Organisation is about good cause organisations working together. It’s about companies, suppliers and customers uniting to make an ongoing difference!  This organisation has the exclusive aim of uniting charities in South Africa and developing innovative
> ways of creating a sustainable source of income for them. All funds raised are paid directly into The Giving Organisation Trust Account and distributed based on simplistic models to be agreed with each employer.


Taken from The Giving Organisations Website

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## Hane

> For people making less than their contribution they need to recruit more people. these people in turn are making less than they contribute.
> Using the single chain concept, as per earlier posts, a person needs 2 chains to break even. 
> Each chain needs 5 members, all of which are contributing more than they earn in commision. As 2 chains are required that means for 1 person breaking even there are *10 earning less than they contribute or running at a loss.*


This isn't quite true. I haven't been actively marketing so have only one Agent beneath me but he on the other hand has been aggressively marketing GiveForLife and he is already breaking even and I'm not even close. YOu dont need 10 people to break even, you only need 3 if you take the silver or bronze package.

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## Dave A

:Hmmm:  And so a whole new pile of issues emerge.

First we have the issue of websites. 

Following the Giving Organisation trail, there is a Give for life website here, which one assumes is the official one belonging to the organisation. What we've had so far from Hane is a series of links to another website, a "give for life" subdomain of hefty. Hefty seems to be all about used agricultural and earthmoving equipment.

OK. I'm  :Confused:  but I'm sure Hane will explain.

Next, reading the Give for Life website (the official one), we find a legal documents page and discover that Gife for Life is an independant trust administered by BOE Trust. So far so good. But then it gets interesting.

First, the beneficiaries per the trust deed are not mentioned. This information would go a long way to assuring that the profits (which up to now would seem to have the potential to exceed the moneys that actually goes to charities per the marketing spin) are indeed going to a worthy cause and is not going to end up lining someone's pocket.

Second, there is the issue of whether this is a pyramid scheme or a lawful network marketing operation. And I suggest what has been presented to assure us is little more than spin.

Much is made of the "endorsement" of the Law Review Project. Based on the published correspondence, the Law Review Project has advised this trust and has issued a carefully worded letter, but they don't give a flat-out endorsement that this is a legal network marketing scheme. What they point out is they have advised the Department of Trade and Industry (among others) as to the details of the scheme, and point out that it is the DTI that normally makes this sort of determination. A published response by the DTI one way or the other is notable by its absence.

And all said, I'm not surprised at the lack of clear legal endorsement - by my understanding this is a legal quagmire at the very least. 

But I have to do some work that pays the bills now...

Be back later.

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desA (17-Feb-10)

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## Hane

Hefty.co.za is my main business I'm in used agricultural equipment. 

I made a sub domain for myself because its easier than to send people directly to the official Give For Life site. I can track it and see if I do get a response. I give one to each of the people that sign up in my down line as well and I added a blogging feature where everyone that joins can tell about their experience.

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Dave A (17-Feb-10)

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## Dave A

Thanks Hane.

One of the key ingredients that seperates network marketing/MLM offerings from pyramid schemes is the flow of product. If there is no flow of product, it's a pyramid - period. So the first thing we need to look for here is a product.

No problem, you might say - *charity* is the product, or more specifically that warm, fuzzy feeling of having made a contribution to help those less fortunate than ourselves.

Well, charity is an interesting "product" at the best of times if we're looking at the "consumer" receiving something for the money he/she has stumped up. I'm quite sure impressive arguments could be raised both for and against charity being a product, but let's for a moment accept that warm, fuzzy feeling as a product.

From here you start chasing your tail a bit because defining a charity is messy.
SARS has its ideas.
SA Government Services has its ideas.
And when it comes to costs of fundraising, the Southern African Institute of Fundraising has its ideas too.

Or can we cut through the charity entanglement by pointing out that a network marketing operation is, by its very nature, a* business* operation? Which in turn would imply that charity as purpose and network marketing as method appears to be mutually exclusive.

Probably going to take someone smarter than me to answer that with any clarity - but no matter how you bob and weave, you're still going to come back to the fact that only 20% is guaranteed to reach the charities. Which has to leave you wondering about the primary purpose.

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## wmarais

Hi, 

I am sure a lot of you have seen the Give for Life program, if not, listen here.

The Give for Life program gives each South African the unique opportunity to start their own business. What makes the Give for Life program so unique is that you will actually be contributing to our South African charities while you earn cash for your eforts. The program is already supported by some of our biggest companies and most famous celebs. 

How does it work? You join the program and agree to donate R189 per month to the charity of your choice, you will then be able to refer other people to do the same (join the program as one of your downline). For each person you refer, you will earn a monthly commission on. There are 5 levels of commissions. some people are already earning over R30 000 per month on commissions. You can find out more here: www.giveforlife.net

If you join the program through my site (thus you will be one of my downline) I will do the following for you:

- Provide you with your own website (it will have your details on it so that you can generate members (downline)).
- Your own domain name (will not be a subdomain), toplevel domain name. You decide what you want and I'll get it for you.
- Fee advertising on 7 of my other sites (these include www.rocketsa.com and www.samoneysystem.com)
- Admin access to the give for life blog (post as many articles about your program as you wish)


contact me if you need more info,

Thanks 
William

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## IanF

> Hi, 
> 
> I am sure a lot of you have seen the Give for Life program, if not, listen here.
> ......
> contact me if you need more info,
> 
> Thanks 
> William


Hi William,
Welcome before trying to hook us into your businesses you should tell us a bit about you. Then more interest may be shown. JAT

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## desA

Are we going to be Shigley'd?   :Confused:

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## wmarais

Hi IanF,

Thanks for the welcome message. I am William Marais, currently living in Canada for almost 2 years now, work in the oil and gas industry as a chemical engineer. 

I am the author of the SA Money System and webmaster of 7-8 other sites.

I am not trying to spam this forum or anything. I truly feel the Give for Life program has good behind it. I know a lot f people are scheptical and that's fine, we all are at the beginning

desA, I like helping people succeed online, one thing a learned with online businesses is that one can't make it alone. I provide each of my members with all the stuff I said (website etc).

Thanks 
William

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## Skulk

Any way one looks at this nonsense, it is a pyramid scheme. Sure, the developers have succeeded in finding a loophole in the laws. The charity organisations (and the famous sponsors) will gladly accept any amount given to the charity, even if it is just 1% of the scheme turnover. After all, charity needs money and any cash is wellcome.

So, the supporters of this latest pyramid scheme have found a cunning way to profit from scheming for charity, I'd say.

Pity, it does in some way tarnish the whole charity principle.

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## SilverNodashi

Skulk, I agree with you. This is a pyramid scheme, doesn't matter how colorful you make it. 

@Hane, don't you think the money for charity should rather go to the charities, than the brokers? No offence, but it sounds to me like the "give money to a charity" part is just another disguise for people to get rich from other people's efforts? I would rather give my full R1000 (or even R100,000 for that matter, imagine how much you just lost!) directly to the charity, than to fund your wealth and scam.

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## Hane

Hi guys sorry I haven't replied before was waiting for Give For Life to make all there changes before I ask your opinion again.

Lets start over and I tell you about the new Give For Life and you tell me what you think about it now.

They changed their pricing structure and you only have one product to buy. Its R289 per month then you get:

* 1. Visa Cash Back Card*
The Visa Cash back card gives you the convenience of an additional bank account at no fixed monthly costs, a prestigious Visa pre-paid credit card, and the ability to earn cash back benefits credited directly to your account on all purchases at any Visa accredited merchant as well as our Recommended Retailers and selected ATMâs.  Please note that you don't need to change your current bank account and can simply transfer funds into this card account or upload funds at any Easy Pay counter and start enjoying the benefits.
*2. Family Benefits Plan*
Receive the benefits of the Amadwala Family Life cover and Accident plan, providing life cover to you, your spouse and up to 5 children.  Additional benefits include free burial repatriation from anywhere in South Africa, HIV trauma and assault cover, health assistance, educational assistance, legal assistance and and much more.  Remember, it comes all inclusive as part of your Give For Life subscription at no additional costs.
* 3. Financial Planning Software*
The Business Optimizer software helps you to do personal planning and prepare financial statements without hiring an expensive accountant.  This is an excellent tool for financial planning for personal, household and business purposes. And yes, the personal cash flow plan is included in your monthly Give For Life subscription at no additional cost.
*4. Buy prepaid airtime conveniently from your phone and get cash back*
You can now purchase your prepaid airtime conveniently from your phone for yourself or others from any of the cell phone networks.  We even give you cash back on your purchases.
*5. Extra Income*
Give For Life also offers an attractive business opportunity by paying high commissions to members who successfully secure other subscribers to the program.  This simply means you can earn extra income similar to that of an Estate Agent while supporting charity in a big way and receiving great benefits.  Consider this - when you get only 4 other people to subscribe, you earn income greater than your own subscription.  This means you get all the monthly Give For Life benefits absolutely free and can continue earning additional income every month thereafter.
*6. Give to Charity*
What makes Give For Life a remarkable product is that it supports charity while providing its subscribers great benefits at the same time. Every month, we donate a fixed monthly amount of R45 on your behalf to charity and by combining the small monthly donations of all our subscribers, charities benefit significantly.  Imagine, by simply using a great product, you are also supporting charity!
Their commission structure changed here is the new structure.
Level 1 R73.50
Level 2 R13
Level 3 R6.50
Level 4 R6.50
Level 4 R6.50

You can take a look at everything on their website www.giveforlife.co.za

Let me know what you think. 

HanÃ¨

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## AndyD

I'm not an MLM fundi but it looks to me like they realised they might be a little shy in the pants when it came to tangible product and have gone back to the drawing board to avoid being classed as a pyramid scheme. At least insurance cover and financial planning software are real products but the charity pitch still doesn't sit too well with me. There's still too little percentage of the money (15.5%) going to charity considering the 'give for life' name of the scheme and the heavily benevolent marketing pitch.

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## Hane

I think Give For Life is named as is because it is a branch of the Giving Organisation here is a link to their website www.thegivingorganisation.org/




> The Giving Organisation is an independent Trust, owned and managed by its beneficiaries, audited by PricewaterhouseCoopers and is honoured to have Archbishop Desmond Tutu as its Patron.  The Giving Organisation is about good cause organisations working together. Itâs about companies, suppliers and customers uniting to make an ongoing difference!  This organisation has the exclusive aim of uniting charities in South Africa and developing innovative ways of creating a sustainable source of income for them. All funds raised are paid directly into The Giving Organisation Trust Account and distributed based on simplistic models to be agreed with each employer. (Payroll Giving)
> 
> The Beneficiaries
> CHOCRed CrossCotlandsReach for a dreamIthemba TrustWWFSPCACANSAACFS

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## desA

To be honest, the whole scheme seems to have no heart (core focus). As a money-making scheme intended to line the pockets of the promoters, it seems to be running thin on salable products.

A bit like a sparsely-stocked supermarket (think of a scheme in Zimbabwe, for instance).

With SA looking the way it currently does, I really don't blame you blokes for trying. You probably need every cent.

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## Hane

Maybe I'm conveying the information wrong? Did you take a look at the organizations? Not just Give For Life but the organisation behind them? 




> * Give For Life is the end result of an innovative project embarked upon by 10 of South Africaâs top charities.  These organisations should be applauded for the co-operative manner in which they operate to generate income for their worthy causes. 
>     * Nine years ago, the South African Childrenâs Charity Trust (SACCT) was formed with the exclusive goal to raise funds for charities on commercial terms.  The SACCT benefited Reach For A Dream, Cotlands, CHOC, The South African Red Cross and the Ithemba Trust.
>     * During 2005, the SACCT was expanded to form The Giving Organisation Trust (TGO), currently benefiting the initial 5 beneficiaries of SACCT as well as CANSA, WWF South Africa, NSPCA, ACFS African Feeding Scheme  and the Desmond Tutu HIV Aids Foundation.  Together these 10 charities promote the Give For Life program, supported by a strong management team with extensive experience in the field of social entrepreneurship. 
>     * When TGO was formed, Archbishop Desmond Tutu accepted appointment as our patron and has to date continued to fulfill this honorable position.

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## Dave A

Here's what I see:

R106.00 incentive scheme
R45.00 charity
R138.00 admin portion

OK - that admin portion still has to pay for the Amadwala Family Life cover and Accident plan, but by any chance is that cost more than R45.00?

It is looking more like a valid MLM setup, but I'm still having a hard time buying the lead tag line of "this is for charity."

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## Hane

Remember there are 4 benefits that they have to pay for.
Visa Cash back Card - Don't know what the charges are but it wont be freeBusiness Optimizer Software - R99 per month prices can be seen on their website http://www.busnessoptimizer.netPre-Paid airtime -  Don't know what the charges are but it wont be freeAmdwala Cover -  Don't know what the charges are but lets make it R45

Then there are the salaries for the staff and what ever is left over from the R138 goes right back into the Giving Organisation Trust that uses that money for other fundraising initiatives.

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