# Social Category > General Chat Forum >  The Bradley Manning Saga

## Citizen X

Bradley Manning was recently sentenced to 35 years for the biggest leak of secrets in US history.

He now plans to live as a female and has a chosen name: Chelsea. *Well that’s his right and the civil groups will have a field day with the authorities,* especially seeing that _he also applied for a presidential pardon from Barack Obama.

_He apparently announced the decision yesterday in a written statement. In such statement he requests hormonal treatment to assist the transition. If he wasn’t in jail, he could have made this choice and if he had the means paid for it. He is now a sentenced convict. He wants and expects at the State expense that they fund the entire process from initial hormonal treatment through to completion.

He said in such statement "As I transition into this next phase of my life, I want everyone to know the real me. I am Chelsea Manning. I am a female. Given the way that I feel, and have felt since childhood, I want to begin hormone therapy as soon as possible,"

He even has a military posted photo of him dressed as a woman with a wig and lipstick. The thing is the military in the US have never had to deal with such a matter before.

“Fort Leavenworth is an all-male prison. But the staff has some leeway to separate soldiers from the other inmates based on the risk to themselves and others, prison spokesman George Marcec said.”

_My only thoughts are that this is a bizarre twist of events in such a huge USA case against one of its own.
_
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-...named-chelsea/

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## wynn

Stick it to them Bradley....err.....I mean Chelsea  '))

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## Didditmiself

Vanash, I think the bigger issue here is whether Manning did the world a favour when he released all those cables to Wikileaks
about the USA or not. What do you (and the others on TFSA) think?

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## Citizen X

A very good evening to you Pete :Wink: ,

I sincerely feel that Bradley Manning is a traitor, I’m surprised that he didn’t receive the death penalty! Regardless of the content he revealed, you don’t betray your own country. Such investigations into civilian Casualties should have come from the UN and bodies such as Amesty International etc.

One must never forget that he served as a soldier, a position which calls for loyalty and trust.

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## HR Solutions

The US think that they can get away with murder (literally) . Good for him. Expose all their bullshit and lies !!!

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wynn (26-Aug-13)

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## carl0s

> A very good evening to you Pete,
> 
> I sincerely feel that Bradley Manning is a traitor, I’m surprised that he didn’t receive the death penalty! Regardless of the content he revealed, you don’t betray your own country. Such investigations into civilian Casualties should have come from the UN and bodies such as Amesty International etc.
> 
> One must never forget that he served as a soldier, a position which calls for loyalty and trust.


I think it's wrong to consider it as him "passing secrets to the enemy". That's not what he did. He released the information from a good moral standing, in an effort to bring justice and accountability to those doing very immoral/illegal things, and hopefully bring about a change in that behaviour. That does not a traitor make.

I wonder if we might all be inadvertently over-influenced (maybe brainwashed??) by modern propaganda from who we have always been lead to believe are the "good guys". Revelations such as these reaffirm my suspicions in that regard.

All this shady stuff regarding Assange - the Swedes want him so badly yet they won't simply give a guarantee that they won't hand him over to the USA?

and the other whistleblower - Edward Snowden - look at the crazy stuff that happened to Evo Morale's airplane. That's just crazy stuff. America is embarrassed and knows that it does things that the people would not want in their name, and it's doing everything it can to hide that bad behaviour, and prevent future bad behaviour getting out. I know a lot of countries do or have done bad things to their people, or their captives,  but our teachers and the media are all to happy to educate us about that. All the while we're supposed to keep thinking that our guys are glorious frickin' angels.

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## pmbguy

I think the US intelligence community is mighty happy he turned into a she. They could not have asked for a better result. It is totally possible that the entire Manning fiasco was engineered by the CIA and others to discredit the whistle blowing movement. They knew he was a she and they covertly facilitated his efforts to release classified information and let things play to their advantage. Nobody wants to be like Manning anymore. I bet Assange is pissed.  
The damage caused by the information leak is far outweighed by the damage done to the whistle blowing movement as a whole. 

Very clever

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## Citizen X

> I think it's wrong to consider it as him "passing secrets to the enemy". That's not what he did. He released the information from a good moral standing, in an effort to bring justice and accountability to those doing very immoral/illegal things, and hopefully bring about a change in that behaviour. That does not a traitor make.
> 
> I wonder if we might all be inadvertently over-influenced (maybe brainwashed??) by modern propaganda from who we have always been lead to believe are the "good guys". Revelations such as these reaffirm my suspicions in that regard.
> 
> All this shady stuff regarding Assange - the Swedes want him so badly yet they won't simply give a guarantee that they won't hand him over to the USA?
> 
> and the other whistleblower - Edward Snowden - look at the crazy stuff that happened to Evo Morale's airplane. That's just crazy stuff. America is embarrassed and knows that it does things that the people would not want in their name, and it's doing everything it can to hide that bad behaviour, and prevent future bad behaviour getting out. I know a lot of countries do or have done bad things to their people, or their captives, but our teachers and the media are all to happy to educate us about that. All the while we're supposed to keep thinking that our guys are glorious frickin' angels.


Good morning Carlos :Wink: ,

You raise pretty fair points. 
Notwithstanding this, my position is that he served as a soldier in a position of trust. This position gave him access to documents which are privileged or classified. He knew that disclosing such information and/or documents even to a family member in secret and on a once off basis would have constituted an offence, despite this he still betrayed his very own country on what has been described as a large scale!

This is what the prosecutor had to say of him:

"He was not a troubled young soul," Fein said. "He was not a whistleblower. He was traitor -- a traitor who understood the value of compromised information in the hands of the enemy."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/07/25/bradley-manning-closing-arguments_n_3653466.html

*Let’s assume* that he done this between 1775 and 1783 during the American revolution. Suppose he passed some documents on to the British thinking that he was acting out of morality or good conscience; I think it’s safe to say that *even George Washington* would have personally ordered his execution had it come to his knowledge. *I doubt very much that Thomas Jefferson would have objected.* I actually think he would have supported a decision to have Manning shot.

As a soldier in a position of trust Manning had a duty to obey and not to betray trust.
I don’t condone the killing of any civilians regardless of who they are. This is the reason why the media, the UN and bodies such as Amesty International exist. They need to make the world aware of such things..

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## Citizen X

> I think the US intelligence community is mighty happy he turned into a she. They could not have asked for a better result. It is totally possible that the entire Manning fiasco was engineered by the CIA and others to discredit the whistle blowing movement. They knew he was a she and they covertly facilitated his efforts to release classified information and let things play to their advantage. Nobody wants to be like Manning anymore. I bet Assange is pissed. 
> The damage caused by the information leak is far outweighed by the damage done to the whistle blowing movement as a whole. 
> 
> Very clever


Good morning pmbguy :Wink: 
This is what is mind boggling for me :Confused: : Is Bradley manning pretending to have an orientation towards being a female all of a sudden just to win the sympathy and support of civil rights movements such as the gay, lesbian, transsexual community. If so, then he’s very clever, cunning and manipulative :Applaud: !
He also applied for a presidential pardon. So President Obama will have to consider this new development and ask him-self, whether it was just possible that emotional imbalance or hormonal imbalance was of such a magnitude that it affected Manning’s conduct i.e. caused him to behave in a way he otherwise wouldn’t have behaved in. In the same breath President Obama may realize that he’s not planning to run for another term and that granting the pardon won’t harm him as Obama.
The other issue is whether the military will indeed pay for his treatment. If he was free, he had every right to undergo hormonal treatment, surgery and counseling as long as he paid the health care provider. I doubt that health care providers will conduct a sex change out of the goodness of their heart, they want money!
So, even if he remains in prison, the civil rights groups are going to campaign for the US to pay for his treament

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## pmbguy

There is the possibility that he wants to be famous, "do some good" and also gain the support of the civil rights movements, the gay, lesbian and transsexual community. He might be doing this for the sex change mostly or he may even have greater ambitions in the civil rights movement her way. The benefits to the US government may be incidental, but I suspect a larger plot is at play.
The key here is the big issue. Is manning a lone she wolf? or is he/she part of a larger conspiracy. The US has the most to gain from the manning debacle. Most often such events are not that alone of the main character themselves, but rather it includes a propaganda TV show with all the usual side-actors and puppeteers. Think about some of the effects. Whenever there is a new whistle blower the joke will be: Is this another Manning? Powerfull! stuff!

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## Citizen X

> Is manning a lone she wolf? or is he/she part of a larger conspiracy.


I doubt very much that Manning acted alone. They must have been some planning and deliberation with one or more people involved here.

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## AndyD

> Regardless of the content he revealed, you don’t betray your own country.



Surely this is the line of thought that ends up with people like the Nazi officers who were instrumental in the murder of millions and were 'just following orders'. The Neurenberg trials didn't agree with you.

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## tec0

This is a difficult one to answer correctly. For example you own a business you give your employee sensitive information. Now your intentions are not clear to the employee. What will the employee do? 

Will the employee trust your judgement? OR will the employee mistrust your judgement? If so what will their actions be? 

There really is no easy answer to this question.

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## pmbguy

> I doubt very much that Manning acted alone. They must have been some planning and deliberation with one or more people involved here.


I am not talking about whether he acted alone or not regarding the leaks, ek is mos nie stupid nie. I am questioning whether the HE/SHE THING was totally that of Manning’s making, or whether the US manipulated the he/she thing to their advantage.

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## pmbguy

Hey Vanash, imagine how Assange is feeling about the sex-change thing. I suspect he is....what’s the word....apoplectic. 
The sex-change twist is undoubtedly damaging to whistleblowers like wiki-leaks and others. But the larger impact is the effect on the sentiments of the general public towards such individuals and organisations. Essentially the whistle blowers have lost their martyr. In fact, their girl backfired on to them big time. I think the US government helped the backfire

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## HR Solutions

I think it is very easy to answer.  From the US government perspective he did wrong because he broke the official secrets act, but from the publics point of view and from the world he showed us what scum they actually are.  He will never get away with it because he is an American, therefore he has to face the US consequences !

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## tec0

> Hey Vanash, imagine how Assange is feeling about the sex-change thing. I suspect he is....what’s the word....apoplectic. 
> The sex-change twist is undoubtedly damaging to whistleblowers like wiki-leaks and others. But the larger impact is the effect on the sentiments of the general public towards such individuals and organisations. Essentially the whistle blowers have lost their martyr. In fact, their girl backfired on to them big time. I think the US government helped the backfire


The sex-change thing is really misdirection. It shifts focus. Therein you find a new truth to how this will get played in the end. That said the law is the law... "or normally the law is the law" for the most part I would step back and just see what the coming months will unfold. 

I as a computer literate knew from day one that there is no such thing as privacy on the net. Everything you do and say gets logged for future use. Be it advertising or other more sinister plans that doesn't matter.

So yea you are exposed... What he did was just confirming that "Uncle Sam" is actually making notes on your favorite wank material! And that will connect you to some system that will do something with that info.... So sorry gents but it is what it is  :Stick Out Tongue: 

It is actually a joke if you think about it. The net is designed to take data from point A to point B now how will it be possible if data didn't know the source and the destination? 

it is actually really funny. In order to go anonymous on the net you need serious skill and serious hardware not to mention a complete working knowledge for every single server and router system. Not to mention you will need access! That is serious hard core stuff. Most normal people can't do it.

a good example is 3G... The truth is those nice big 3G towers NEED to KNOW where your little smart phone is at ALL times... otherwise your phone cannot access it and it cannot serve you. "there is a "bus" sequence that gets renewed ALL THE TIME. IT HAS TOO!!! It even knows your distance between you and the tower thanks to signal strength. Thanks to directional antennas a lot more is possible.

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## Citizen X

> Surely this is the line of thought that ends up with people like the Nazi officers who were instrumental in the murder of millions and were 'just following orders'. The Neurenberg trials didn't agree with you.


A very good afternoon to you Andy :Wink: ,

Touché. The sad thing about the holocaust is that the West knew what taking place and didn’t initially react.
1. More directly to your assertion though is the consideration of type of government. The Nazis were fascists whereas the USA, despite its shortcomings is a democracy. So the question is how should a soldier behave in a democracy?
2. In Nazi Germany all the atrocious steps taken to oppress the Jewish people were actually taken publicly and was even reported in the press. The Foreign mass media of that day commented vociferously on Nazi anti-Jewish activity. It’s now a historical fact that the USA made such information available to relevant Jewish leaders in November 1942. It was made public shortly thereafter. The Allies were actually aware of what the Germans had already done to the Jewish people at an early stage
3.Eventually, the American Government confirmed the reports to Jewish leaders in late November 1942. They were publicized immediately thereafter. While the details were neither complete nor wholly accurate, the Allies were aware of most of what the Germans had done to the Jews at a relatively early date.

“The response of the Allies to the persecution and destruction of European Jewry was inadequate. Only in January 1944 was an agency, the War Refugee Board, established for the express purpose of saving the victims of Nazi persecution. Prior to that date, little action was taken. On December 17, 1942, the Allies issued a condemnation of Nazi atrocities against the Jews, but this was the only such declaration made prior to 1944.”[1]

With Nazi Germany the bigger issue of morality was that countries which had power to act failed to act timeously.

4. With Manning, he/she was serving under a democracy in the capacity of a soldier. Common sense should have told him/her that what he/she was doing was treason. Besides the media were already reporting on civilian deaths in Iraq and Afghanistan. Again, I don’t condone the killing of any civilians by any military

In South Africa jurisprudence it's an established principal that you actually welcome to break the law as long as you are willing to face the consequences!

*Back to Nazi Germany:
*There was selective morality at Nuremburg! Not all that should have been tried were in actual fact tried. One would imagine that the scientist who developed the v1 and v2 rockets which killed indiscriminately i.e. just landed in any civilian area in Britian and exploded would be on the list of those to have been tried at Nuremburg. No so!
Wernher Magnus Maximilian, Freiherr von Braun, developed these rockets that killed so many civilians. He was aware of their purpose. Yet after WW11, the USA actually recruited him. H worked on the United States Army intermediate range ballistic missile. In 1975 he received a medal from the states for his contribution!

*Back to Manning:* If he truly had a sense of morality, he would have only released the documents that pertained to the civillian killing.

Let’s assume that the court held that based upon his sense of morality he is acquitted on charges pertaining to specific documents regarding civilian killing, let’s assume further that the court states that the leaking of the diplomatic cables is a treasonous act and grants the death penalty. What would now be wrong with this scenario? 
[1]http://motlc.wiesenthal.com/site/pp.asp?c=gvKVLcMVIuG&b=394663#20. Accessed 26 August 2013

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## Citizen X

> The sex-change thing is really misdirection. It shifts focus.


I can't but agree! I think Manning is very clever! I know a thing or two about the South African criminal mind. Once caught, the criminal immediately tries to think of ways to get out of the prison sentence. You could for example somehow convince everyone that you on your death bed, no sooner you released on sick parole, you enjoying the finest restuarants and you no longer on your death bed.

Once charged many criminals start contemplating an 'insanity plea,' knowing that they won't leave the court a free man if convicted but if the plea succeeds that get confined to a mental institution.

It's questionable why Manning made such a revelation after conviction and not before.At least it's business for some, the health care providers are not going to care either way as long as they paid for the treatment. So the USA may have to pay for treatment for someone who betrayed them.

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## wynn

> One must never forget that he served as a soldier, a position which calls for loyalty and trust.


So it was alright for Nazis to kill Jews because they were loyal trustworthy soldiers? crimes against civilians are crimes and need to be outed and all the other crap also needed airing same as with Edward Snowdon, I am sure they both considered what they did very carefully before they blew the whistle.
I don't like the Idea that USA killed innocent news cameramen or the fact that they are possibly spying on me!!!

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## tec0

> So it was alright for Nazis to kill Jews because they were loyal trustworthy soldiers? crimes against civilians are crimes and need to be outed and all the other crap also needed airing same as with Edward Snowdon, I am sure they both considered what they did very carefully before they blew the whistle.
> I don't like the Idea that USA killed innocent news cameramen or the fact that they are possibly spying on me!!!


It is a 100% fact that your emails goes trough a few systems every second and if enough red flags popup someone will read it to see if action needs to be taken or not. The truth is these systems have existed since the "cold war" and evolved into something spectacular. Imagine all those wonderful CPU farms working with clever software to figure out what is going on inside your head. 

Millions upon millions of pages of emails that gets scanned every time you hit the send button. It sounds like science-fiction but its not...

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## HR Solutions

Its a pity then that they don't figure out quick enough those people that go on the rampage killing people in cinema's/schools in the US or in Oslo  !!!

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## Citizen X

> So it was alright for Nazis to kill Jews because they were loyal trustworthy soldiers? crimes against civilians are crimes and need to be outed and all the other crap also needed airing same as with Edward Snowdon, I am sure they both considered what they did very carefully before they blew the whistle.
> I don't like the Idea that USA killed innocent news cameramen or the fact that they are possibly spying on me!!!





> The Nazis were fascists whereas the USA, despite its shortcomings is a democracy. So the question is how should a soldier behave in a democracy?





> 4. With Manning, he/she was serving under a democracy in the capacity of a soldier. Common sense should have told him/her that what he/she was doing was treason. Besides the media were already reporting on civilian deaths in Iraq and Afghanistan. Again, I dont condone the killing of any civilians by any military





> *Back to Nazi Germany:
> *There was selective morality at Nuremburg! Not all that should have been tried were in actual fact tried. One would imagine that the scientist who developed the v1 and v2 rockets which killed indiscriminately i.e. just landed in any civilian area in Britian and exploded would be on the list of those to have been tried at Nuremburg. No so!
> Wernher Magnus Maximilian, Freiherr von Braun, developed these rockets that killed so many civilians. He was aware of their purpose. Yet after WW11, the USA actually recruited him. H worked on the United States Army intermediate range ballistic missile. In 1975 he received a medal from the states for his contribution!
> 
> *Back to Manning:* If he truly had a sense of morality, he would have only released the documents that pertained to the civillian killing.
> 
> Lets assume that the court held that based upon his sense of morality he is acquitted on charges pertaining to specific documents regarding civilian killing, lets assume further that the court states that the leaking of the diplomatic cables is a treasonous act and grants the death penalty. What would now be wrong with this scenario?


It's common cause that it's plain wrong, simply an atrocious crime against humanity, for any military to to kill civillians regardless of who those civilians are
I'm by no means suggesting that it was right for the Nazis to murder the Jews, I'm merely pointing out the fact that the civilian killings in Iraq and Afghanistan was covered by the media of that day, though not in fine detail.

 I'm further attempting to demonstrate that Manning is not the moral character that he/she presents himself/herself to be. If so why did he/she restrict the leaks to only the civilian killings which would have not been more than a 100 pages. He released thousands of pages of documents, most of them diplomatic cables.

So let's remove the civilian killings from this equation. Isolate the diplomatic cables. leaking this alone was sufficient for him to be granted the death penalty.

*I come back to my initial point:* Had Manning existed in the 18th century and done the same serving George Washington in the American revolution, he would have been shot!

_So, for me the issue in dispute is not the civilian killings, it's the leaking of thousands of other documents that were classified in his capacity as a soldier_

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tec0 (26-Aug-13)

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## Citizen X

> Its a pity then that they don't figure out quick enough those people that go on the rampage killing people in cinema's/schools in the US or in Oslo !!!


Good evening HR Solutions,

Answer me this: From a recruitment and selection process where did the states go wrong in recruiting Snowden?

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## Dave A

At times I do wonder if the USA is going to end up being the definition of *democratic* fascism. They do get pretty close to some of the fascist state characteristics every now and then.

But then it's pretty difficult to be a genuinely open, free society nowadays. Quite a tricky line to walk, balancing individual freedoms and security.

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pmbguy (26-Aug-13)

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## HR Solutions

> Good evening HR Solutions,
> 
> Answer me this: From a recruitment and selection process where did the states go wrong in recruiting Snowden?


I never said they went wrong in recruiting him, so I can't answer that.

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## tec0

> Its a pity then that they don't figure out quick enough those people that go on the rampage killing people in cinema's/schools in the US or in Oslo  !!!


Most killings are done in the name of hate, greed and passion. The shootings that you pointed out was done by unstable people. But consider that we have more deaths per day than most of the US have in a week then you see a pattern. The reality is that some parties want stricter gun control so they use the media to do exactly that. However if you consider the population size to our own. Consider there resources and access to legal weapons and then consider that our country has more deaths in week then they have in a month "keeping in mind the population size. Then there country is still considered safer then us. 

The reality is they have the technology to log your complete digital footprint. But depending on the person they still need warrants to access the info unless you are flagged by a intelligence agency. It is these laws however that is slowly changing.

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## Citizen X

> I never said they went wrong in recruiting him, so I can't answer that.


Granted! I didn’t imply that you did! 

I’m merely trying to establish that even HR department can employ the wrong person.
The point I want to make here is that in business and in the Intelligence community, the HR department will create an impression that the individual they recruited/interviewed by whatever means is simply the best person for the job. 

Our very own business history in SA shows otherwise as many individuals in senior positions such as CEO eventually brought their employers into disrepute or abused their position of power.

With Snowden, I would personally think that the CIA has the most sophisticated recruitment and selection criteria and that Snowden was subject to such selection process. Despite this look how he turned out.
If the CIA can get it wrong then similarly corporate South Africa(Their HR departments) can also get it wrong at times.

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## wynn

> _So, for me the issue in dispute is not the civilian killings, it's the leaking of thousands of other documents that were classified in his capacity as a soldier_


So assume that when I was doing my military service in 1970 I came across a hoard of secret military and diplomatic correspondence indicating crimes against humanity by the then Apartheid NAT government and I sent them all to a neutral party, because to filter them would expose me to greater risk of being caught, assume as Manning did that 'Wiki Leaks' and certain well known newspapers were going to redact the hoard and only leak the ones that showed civilian casualties, crimes against humanity and internationally illegal behavior.
Then imagine through circumstances the 'Wiki Leaks' of the day were forced to protect themselves and publish everything, after all that is what happened.
Manning never meant for everything to be published but the bullying tactics of the USA and their clandestine operators forced the hand of 'Wiki Leaks' and the selected news papers that were doing the redacting, hence the fact that a lot of secret stuff that never should have seen the light of day was put out for everybody to see.
For this the NAT's would have either hung, shot or jailed me for life but after the new Democratic dispensation I would have been hailed as a hero, much like certain Afrikaner Clergymen who went against the grain and refused to accept the meddling of the NAT's in their beliefs, they were demonized and persecuted but today are heroes.

Perhaps when the new American President comes to power he will pardon Manning and declare him a hero for exposing all the wrongdoing of the American Forces, after all he was just the messenger not the boogyman.

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## tec0

One man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist... History is written by the victor not by facts. It is and will forever remain fact that there are monsters on all sides and each of them will get away with there crimes against humanity until such time when they lose then things will change so that they will remain the same. So what am I saying? 

the more things change the more they stay the same... 

A simple truth if there ever was one.

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Citizen X (27-Aug-13), pmbguy (27-Aug-13)

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## Citizen X

> History is written by the victor not by facts.  So what am I saying? 
> 
> the more things change the more they stay the same... 
> 
> A simple truth if there ever was one.


Good afternoon Tec0,

I've committed your sentiments to memory and will find some occassion to use them.
 Just 3 of your sentences speaks volumes of the world's state of affairs
 :Big Grin:

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tec0 (29-Aug-13)

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## carl0s

Couple of things.

I think the transgender thing wouldn't have a negative impact on Manning for a lot of fair and open minded people. It certainly doesn't discredit him (her?) to me or affect my judgement of what s/he did.

As Vanash already hinted at, it could have worked towards Manning's advantage during the sentencing, although obviously s/he ended up with quite a long sentence so perhaps not.

I had a friend who was transgender (Paul / Paula). S/he had an attic full of 6-foot skunk weed plants that was discovered by the police. When he turned up to the crown court hearing dressed as a woman I think the subject of the court case was put into a different perspective.

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## HR Solutions

> History is written by the victor not by facts


Don't agree with this at all.  History is only written by the facts !

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## wynn

> Don't agree with this at all.  History is only written by the facts !


But only eventualy!

Living in this country when the NATS were in control you would be forgiven for believing a lot of their bulls#!t now we are to believe that only the cANCer were responsible for democracy?

We will only hear the true history of the freedom struggle when the cANCer are no longer a political organization.

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## HR Solutions

Sure but the facts are for example:  When the ANC took over, when Mandela came out of prison etc eg.
History is really only later anyway according to the facts.

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## Citizen X

> Don't agree with this at all. History is only written by the facts !


*During the apartheid regime*, history was written by them in a manner that suited them. The *“facts,”* were not presented to us in our history textbooks in school. This is now common cause!
There is an actual genrally accepted term for countries that do so: Historical revisionism. This the distortion of the historical record to suit the country in question. As such their children will learn the distorted view as opposed to what actually transpired.
A further example is holocaust denial.
*Plato asserted that ‘those who tell the stories also hold the power.’*
Many countries resorted to burning both books as well as libraries to accomplish this. China and Serbia are a further two examples.
“The history textbook controversy centers upon the secondary school history textbook _Atarashii Rekishi Kyōkasho_ ("New History Textbook") said to minimise the nature of Japanese militarism in the First Sino-Japanese War (1894–95), in annexing Korea in 1910, in the Second Sino-Japanese War (1937–45), and in the Second World War (1939–45). The conservative Japanese Society for History Textbook Reform commissioned the _Atarashii Rekishi Kyōkasho_ textbook with the purpose of traditional national and international view of that Japanese historical period*. The Ministry of Education vets all history textbooks, and those that do not mention Japanese war crimes and atrocities are not vetted*;however, the _Atarashii Rekishi Kyōkasho_ de-emphasises aggressive Japanese Imperial wartime behaviour and the matter of Chinese and Korean comfort women. It has even been denied that the Nanking massacre (a series of violences and rapes carried on by the Japanese army against Chinese civilians during the Second Sino-Japanese War) ever took place (see Nanking massacre denial).”[1]

“In May 2009, Russian president, Dmitri Medvedev, established the History Commission of Russia (formally, the Presidential Commission of the Russian Federation to Counter Attempts to Falsify History to the Detriment of Russia's Interests) to counter aggressive attempts to rewrite history to Russian disadvantage, yet Alexander Cherkasov of the Memorial human-rights group, called it a regression to Soviet-era control. Historian Isaak Rozental says, "Their [the Kremlin’s] approach is not to study history but to use it. The textbook _History of Russia and the World in the 20th century_ (2004), by Nikita Zagladin, replaced the _National History: 20th century_, by Igor Dolutsky; Zagladin’s textbook was produced under the aegis of President Vladimir Putin, who wanted a more patriotic textbook. Critics of the textbook note the lack of detail about historical events such as the Siege of Leningrad (1941–44), the Gulag forced-labour camps, the Russo–Finnish Winter War (1939–40), the First Chechen War (1994–96), and the Second Chechen War (1999–2000), as serious factual inaccuracies; most egregious, the critics propose, is the absence of the Holocaust (1933–45), and the glorification of the rule of Josef Stalin (1922–53.)”[2]

*“Nationalism:* For example when reading schoolbook history in Europe, it is possible to read about an event from completely different perspectives. In the Battle of Waterloo *most British, French, Dutch and German schoolbooks slant the battle to emphasise the importance of the contribution of their nations*. Sometimes the name of an event is used to convey political or a national perspective. For example the same conflict between two English speaking countries is known by two different names, for example, the "American War of Independence" and the "American Revolutionary War". As perceptions of nationalism change so do those areas of history that are driven by such ideas.”[3]
*“Access to new data:* Much historical data has been lost. Even archives have to make decisions based on space and interest on what original material to obtain or keep. At times documents are discovered or publicized that give new views of well established events. *Archived material may be sealed by Governments for many years, either to hide political scandals, or to protect information vital for national security. When these archives are opened, they can alter the historical perspective on an event.* For example with the release of the ULTRA archives in the 1970s under the British 30 years rule, a lot of the Allied high command tactical decision making process was re-evaluated, particularly the Battle of the Atlantic. The release of the ULTRA archives also forced a re-evaluation of the history of the electronic computer. When American soldiers entered the Dachau concentration camp on April 29, 1945 to obtain the surrender of the retreating Nazis, the massacre of German S.S. guards was not reported by American newspaper reporters who were embedded with the American troops. When the "I.G. Report" of the Army's "Investigation of Alleged Mistreatment of German Guards at Dachau" was released in 1991, it became obvious that the massacre had actually occurred and had been suppressed by General Patton.”[4]



*If a ‘victor,’ doesn’t intend rewriting history , then why burn a library????*

There are just too many examples of libraries burnt to list here. I’ll mention just one
The Ancient Library of Alexandria
The simple question is : why burn a library, if you don’t intend to rewrite history???




[1] Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_revisionism_(negationism). Accessed 28 August 2013

[2] Supra n1

[3]Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_revisionism. Accessed 28 August 2013

[4] Supra n 3

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pmbguy (28-Aug-13), tec0 (29-Aug-13)

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## HR Solutions

Ok Vanash - Not really into reading a copy pasted article, but will take it at face value.

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## Citizen X

> Ok Vanash - Not really into reading a copy pasted article, but will take it at face value.


A very good afternoon to you HR Solutions :Big Grin: ,

The first part was not 'copy pasted,' nor was my conclusion 'copy pasted.'

The text I did select from other sources('copy pasted) was included to support the premise. 

*Premise(not copy pasted)
*



> *During the apartheid regime*, history was written by them in a manner that suited them. The *“facts,”* were not presented to us in our history textbooks in school. This is now common cause!
> There is an actual genrally accepted term for countries that do so: Historical revisionism. This the distortion of the historical record to suit the country in question. As such their children will learn the distorted view as opposed to what actually transpired.
> A further example is holocaust denial.
> *Plato asserted that ‘those who tell the stories also hold the power.’*
> Many countries resorted to burning both books as well as libraries to accomplish this. China and Serbia are a further two examples.


*Conclusion: Not copy pasted

*


> *If a ‘victor,’ doesn’t intend rewriting history , then why burn a library????
> 
> *There are just too many examples of libraries burnt to list here. I’ll mention just one
> The Ancient Library of Alexandria
> The simple question is : why burn a library, if you don’t intend to rewrite history???

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## pmbguy

History is totally flexible to the pen, changing over time to suit a particular cause or outcome or popular view. History is subjective in its certainty.  One fact that is unshakable is that there is absolutely no objective 100% factual history we can perceive. We must employ agility towards the edges of facts, facts without a good perception of context can be pulled and pushed in many directions.





> *If a victor, doesnt intend rewriting history , then why burn a library????*


Its a show of power, secondly its for long term political advantage. The victor would like to reduce the intelligentsia, by taking away their information and propaganda potential and much needed educated class. An educated class is an obvious threat to a new Emperor. 

Usually the victor does intent to rewrite history.

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tec0 (29-Aug-13)

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## Citizen X

> History is totally flexible to the pen, changing over time to suit a particular cause or outcome or popular view. History is subjective in its “certainty”. One fact that is unshakable is that there is absolutely no objective 100% factual history we can perceive. We must employ agility towards the edges of “facts”, facts without a good perception of context can be pulled and pushed in many directions.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Its a show of power, secondly it’s for long term political advantage. The victor would like to reduce the intelligentsia, by taking away their information and propaganda potential and much needed educated class. An educated class is an obvious threat to a new Emperor. 
> 
> Usually the victor does intent to rewrite history.


My position is that an occupying power or a conqueror has the direct intention of burning libraries and other such records so that revolutionary groups won’t have access to their history.
 It is a show of power as a group of people, an entire community has benn taken captive. The power already shows, just by the act of taking complete control of a geographica area.

The victor will then decide on whether the conquered people follow his law(as in the case of Roman and all it's colonys, they were forced to accept Roman Law and thereby Roman culture and education which included history). They then done what many conquerors have done, they incorporate the conquered people into their society and condition them according their cultute, customs and history.

 Imagine not experiencing a childhood or teenage years, this occurs for so many thousands of children.Their childhoods are taken from them. Today in Syria 1 million children are in refugee camps. This since 2011, their childhoods are being stolen from them and it’s the victor’s who will ultimately tell them the history.

Zimbabwe has a state controlled media. Even at present history is being created, as they provide their people with a picture of what to see. In doing so a generation of Zimbabwean children provide their full attention to this media and propaganda. There are half- truths. Though all previous elections of Zimbabwe except for the first in 1980 are questionable, Mugabe prevails and he has to tell his country their historical story. He’s telling them so from his perspective. By giving people land(against international law and any reasonable law), his land reform program, he has a fan base to whom his recreated history will be presented. They have and appear to be still accepting the historical version of events that he has offered. This created history is that the evil ‘colonists and imperialist) want to invade Zimbabwe and he wants to protect Zimbabwe. His target audience becomes even more susceptible to his created history when he tells them boldly that he will just take international mines, money, assets, property and minerals without even caring what the West has to say.

So, this is one of many ways that a victor in power who has the military at his disposal will ultimately guide the way in which the history was told.
I would love to watch ‘TV Zimbabwe,’ just to see what it is that they are showing their people. I think it will make for very interesting viewing.

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pmbguy (06-Sep-13)

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## HR Solutions

Obviously many different ways of seeing how history is created.

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## tec0

> Obviously many different ways of seeing how history is created.


Historical accuracy is simply impractical...

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## HR Solutions

> Historical accuracy is simply impractical...


I still don't agree at all.

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## pmbguy

> I had a friend who was transgender (Paul / Paula). S/he had an attic full of 6-foot skunk weed plants that was discovered by the police. When he turned up to the crown court hearing dressed as a woman I think the subject of the court case was put into a different perspective.


Hi Carlos, what are you doing with your spare time?

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## Phil Cooper

A traitor passes secrets to the enemy that put their own country at risk.

No secrets were passed - only proof of savage disregard for the rights of innocent people who were mis-treated by soldiers acting against the rules of their own country.

I think he did a GREAT thing, and should not be jailed.

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wynn (30-Aug-13)

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## tec0

> I still don't agree at all.


I also believe that history must be Historically accurate at all times. But the truth is hardly ever practical. There are countless examples where historians wrote female priest out of the picture. It took years to uncover the truths. And even today some entities will insist that the lie is the truth and the truth is a lie. 

The reason is very simple actually. They do not want to be held accountable for their actions. Even today there still people that demand answers for things that happened in the second world war. They want to take people that is nearly a 100 years old and put them in prison or worse. 

History is accountability and motive. 

The world don't really care for what we believe or disbelieve with enough time the truth may see the light or it may not.

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## HR Solutions

Not making any sense again ...... But whatever dude

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## tec0

> Not making any sense again ...... But whatever dude


I really don't know why you have to insult people all the time? It is getting old. I am not going to convince you, as you stated yourself the internet is easy enough to use. If you take the time you will find that there are a lot of conflicts within historical data. As you said you had no interest to read “copy paste” info so if I were to add some examples you will not take note of them. And that is by choice.  

But funny thing is people will read they will make there own choices.

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## wynn

And the more we manipulate history the more often we are destined to make the same mistakes!!

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pmbguy (06-Sep-13)

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## Dave S

> One man's freedom fighter is another man's terrorist... History is written by the victor not by facts. It is and will forever remain fact that there are monsters on all sides and each of them will get away with there crimes against humanity until such time when they lose then things will change so that they will remain the same. So what am I saying? 
> 
> the more things change the more they stay the same... 
> 
> A simple truth if there ever was one.


I'm inclined to agree with you here Tec0, history does change according to new "facts" that come to light later on, if these facts are from the victor or the vanquished? well, later history will tell us that.

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## Citizen X

> A traitor passes secrets to the enemy that put their own country at risk.
> 
> No secrets were passed - only proof of savage disregard for the rights of innocent people who were mis-treated by soldiers acting against the rules of their own country.
> 
> I think he did a GREAT thing, and should not be jailed.


A very good afternoon to you Phil :Big Grin: ,
Would your answer differ if Manning was your employee and from an unlawful competition perspective gave trade secrets to your competitors?
Alternatively, would you still keep him in your employ if he uploaded virtually all your business documents?

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## Dave A

On the "flexibility of history" issue, time and distance tends to give better perspective and objectivity.

There's no doubt the Nats distorted history to suit their views. Not much doubt the ANC have done some of the same too.

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## pmbguy

How do I articulate this and not thud risqué politics, perhaps a semi anecdote: 
On campaign Seizer came across a statue of Alexander and wept, for he was humbled, far beyond his perceptions of ambition was Alexander. At the end of the late republic.. (Seizer...... Octavian) the emperor’s started to build much more, the Roman empire became 400%  more wealthy with expansion, as usual, After the Republican age, directly fortified by single rule and continuity The later Roman empire pumped, like the US....this is the US. Their version of the 49AD in 2013 . The skirt of democracy is just cloth, nothing more. US policy is somewhat separated from the democratic process. I hope the US wins, if they fail we will all eventually live pretty shitty, all work no play. No room for personal talent just another peasant in the cog. 

Hit them now whilst you have military superiority!...

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## Chrisjan B

Problem is their national debt is so huge they in reality cannot afford to hit a mosquito.....

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## Justloadit

that's why they need another war, to create wealth again.

Destruction always requires rebuilding, and generally after the destruction, there is no past debt as it is wiped out during the destruction process.

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## HR Solutions

> that's why they need another war, to create wealth again.
> 
> Destruction always requires rebuilding, and generally after the destruction, there is no past debt as it is wiped out during the destruction process.



And that is hitting the nail squarely on the head.

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## Citizen X

> On the "flexibility of history" issue, time and distance tends to give better perspective and objectivity.
> 
> There's no doubt the Nats distorted history to suit their views. Not much doubt the ANC have done some of the same too.


A very good afternoon to you Dave :Wink: 

As Dave candidly pointed out both the Nats and the ANC recognized historical revisionism for whatever agenda they deemed necessary. The Nats were gentlepeople in the manner in which they allowed for a peaceful transition in SA. One need only look at Syria to realize that a ruling party, need not let go of power so easily.
The ANC on the other hand have demonstrated by their various conduct that they have a problem with freedom of expression and the media in particular. This is an indication that the ANC would much rather have their version of South African history post 1994 told than what has in actual fact transpired and is currently transpiring!
I reiterate that I will never in good conscience condone the killing of any civilians in war and civil war regardless of who such civilians are or what their belief system is. One must then appreciate, based on our history, that mankind has selective morality

1. I may be wrong but as I understand it, the USA admitted to killing a certain amount of civilians in Iraq but were not forthcoming of the actual amount of civilians killed which they were privy to.
2. *Iraq:* Once the Iranian revolution transpired, history informs us that Saddam Hussein invaded Iran and some 1,5 million people were killed on both sides. So, it apparent to me that if you kill civilians and you dont hide it, i.e. you state that a certain amount of innocent people were killed, then it appears that there is no problem. What is wrong with this scenario???
3. When Sadam Hussein invaded Kuwait some 100, 000 people were killed. Again it appears not to be a problem as long as you dont hide it and Sadam didnt hide it!!
4. Sadam had a genocide campaign against his very own people namely the Kurdish people,
5. To bring a speedy end to world war 2, the USA used atomic weapons on Hiroshima and Nagasaki, some 230 000 people perished! This was never hidden but it was justified;
6. Since I have a grassroots predisposition, I turn to grassroots examples to describe this world we live in. Marley say, this world is a Mix up , Mix up, and he who hide the wrong he did, surely did the wrong thing still!

Well, it's not easy,
It's not easy
Speak the truth, come on, speak. Eh, now!
It ever cause it what it will:
He who hide the wrong he did
Surely did the wrong thing things.
Live up the wiggle-ix-up, in the mix-up, yes!
Too much so fellow-ix up!
Too much of this mix up - mix up!

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## led

> that's why they need another war, to create wealth again.
> 
> Destruction always requires rebuilding, and generally after the destruction, there is no past debt as it is wiped out during the destruction process.






> Mankind must put an end to war before war puts an end to mankind.
> John F. Kennedy





> Never think that war, no matter how necessary, nor how justified, is not a crime.
> Ernest Hemingway


 *
Wealth is a fallacy and war is a crime against humanity.* 





> When the rich wage war, it's the poor who die.
> Jean-Paul Sartre

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## Justloadit

@LED

Sticks and stones.
I was making a comment, and not advocating war, and no matter what quotes you post, while testosterone in flowing in man's blood, and as long as man keeps on trespassing some of "Ten commandments" (*), there will always be war.

(*) Please note I am not trying to discuss religion, just simply enlightening some of the laws that humans trespass on a daily basis, which gives rise to conflict.

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## Citizen X

> @LED
> 
> Sticks and stones.
> I was making a comment, and not advocating war, and no matter what quotes you post, while testosterone in flowing in man's blood, and as long as man keeps on trespassing some of "Ten commandments" (*), there will always be war.
> 
> (*) Please note I am not trying to discuss religion, just simply enlightening some of the laws that humans trespass on a daily basis, which gives rise to conflict.


The simple reality is that both war and civil war is quite the reality in mankinds past and his present. Some religious books postulate that 'there will come a time when man will know war no more .'
Africa is riddled with civil war. The middle east and such other uprisings and conflicts can't be ignored any . We've experience a first and second world war. The West, East, Middle East and Africa has and continues to have its share in the horror of war or civil war.

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## HR Solutions

Led I see u are from Muphumalamga . Do you know tec at all ?

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## tec0

Nope...  




> Led I see u are from Muphumalamga . Do you know tec at all ?


Do you know BBBEE_CompSpec ?

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## HR Solutions

Yep my cousin.

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## IanF

> Nope...  
> 
> 
> 
> Do you know BBBEE_CompSpec ?


I met him he came to visit me at my shop a few years ago.
 :Cool:

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HR Solutions (02-Sep-13)

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## AndyD

I hope you did a stock-take after he left.  :Smile:

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wynn (02-Sep-13)

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## wynn

There is a new series? coming up on DSTV where the lead up says that "The history books are written in ink, but the history is written in blood."  perhaps never a truer word spoken?

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## Phil Cooper

Vanesh

Bluntly, I stick inside the law.

SO - if an employee sent out company secrets I would NOT be happy.

BUT - if they advised clients that I was transgressing tax laws, FAIS legislation, etc., while being ticked off, I would only have myself to blame for breaking the law....

Yes - I would be angry.  But acknowledge it was my fault...

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carl0s (08-Sep-13)

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## Citizen X

> Vanesh
> 
> Bluntly, I stick inside the law.
> 
> SO - if an employee sent out company secrets I would NOT be happy.
> 
> BUT - if they advised clients that I was transgressing tax laws, FAIS legislation, etc., while being ticked off, I would only have myself to blame for breaking the law....
> 
> Yes - I would be angry. But acknowledge it was my fault...


Hi Phil,

Very fair answer! Thank you...

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## IanF

> I hope you did a stock-take after he left.


I was with him the whole time so nothing went missing. He was an interesting guy to talk to but I am glad no business originated from that.

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## Dave A

> 1. I may be wrong but as I understand it, the USA admitted to killing a certain amount of civilians in Iraq but were not forthcoming of the actual amount of civilians killed which they were privy to.
> 2. *Iraq:* Once the Iranian revolution transpired, history informs us that Saddam Hussein invaded Iran and some 1,5 million people were killed on both sides. So, it apparent to me that if you kill civilians and you don’t hide it, i.e. you state that a certain amount of innocent people were killed, then it appears that there is no problem. What is wrong with this scenario???


I suspect the uncomfortable truth is the world holds the USA to a different standard in these things - certainly when it comes to your comparison case countries, and perhaps even the vast majority of nations around the world.

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## wynn

> I suspect the uncomfortable truth is the world holds the USA to a different standard in these things - certainly when it comes to your comparison case countries, and perhaps even the vast majority of nations around the world.


They call it "Collateral Casualties" I call it what it is "Murder and Crime against Humanity"

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## pmbguy

Peoping in the wind

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## carl0s

> Hi Carlos, what are you doing with your spare time?


LOL. That was a long time ago. I think around a decade ago, maybe more. I had acquaintances from all walks of life, and still now I feel I do not judge people and so would still have many friends and acquaintances who are perhaps not all from the same walks of life. I haven't seen that person in quite a few years though. I feel a bit guilty for not doing so as it happens, but..  well that's another story. The fact that that person grew himself plants for his own use that were and still are not legal, well, that's nothing about me. Each to their own. Pot doesn't agree with me one bit as it happens.

If I misunderstood, and you didn't mean "what were you doing with your spare time to have encountered such a person and situation", well then the answer to your question is:

I'm learning bass guitar. Playing my acoustic guitar - discovered I like Squeeze (playing along to Labelled with Love and Black Coffee in Bed), and getting my BMW 545i project car on the road. I picked up a new auto box for it and I've had both cylinder heads off, fitted new valve stem seals, replaced the leaking coolant transfer pipe, and every other gasket and seal along the way. Still a way to go on it though.

and I've been to the pub once or twice too  :Wink: 

I watched "2 Guns" tonight. It was OK.

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## Citizen X

> LOL. That was a long time ago. I think around a decade ago, maybe more. I had acquaintances from all walks of life, and still now I feel I do not judge people and so would still have many friends and acquaintances who are perhaps not all from the same walks of life. I haven't seen that person in quite a few years though. I feel a bit guilty for not doing so as it happens, but.. well that's another story. The fact that that person grew himself plants for his own use that were and still are not legal, well, that's nothing about me. Each to their own. Pot doesn't agree with me one bit as it happens.
> 
> If I misunderstood, and you didn't mean "what were you doing with your spare time to have encountered such a person and situation", well then the answer to your question is:
> 
> I'm learning bass guitar. Playing my acoustic guitar - discovered I like Squeeze (playing along to Labelled with Love and Black Coffee in Bed), and getting my BMW 545i project car on the road. I picked up a new auto box for it and I've had both cylinder heads off, fitted new valve stem seals, replaced the leaking coolant transfer pipe, and every other gasket and seal along the way. Still a way to go on it though.
> 
> and I've been to the pub once or twice too 
> 
> I watched "2 Guns" tonight. It was OK.


Good morning Carlos,

Answer me this: As someone abroad, how do you perceive us generally as South Africans taking into consideration our issues and current headlines?

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## pmbguy

Hi Carlos, thanks for the reply, ah you know, I was just pulling your leg your post was just so dam funny. I almost fell off my chair laughing when I read what you said 



> I had a friend who was transgender (Paul / Paula). S/he had an attic full of 6-foot skunk weed plants that was discovered by the police. When he turned up to the crown court hearing dressed as a woman I think the subject of the court case was put into a different perspective.


One lank crazy story, and yes she certainly reduced the severity of the punishment. Misdirection, the prosecution thought about the sex not the drugs. Cunning Paula, should have called herself Lola. I can’t say that I have ever been friends with a transgender person, but I don’t judge people based on their sexuality. If you a good person then you are a good person If you are bad you bad, regardless of all other personal statistics.

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carl0s (01-Oct-13)

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## pmbguy

I think this song was actually banned in SA back in the day

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