# General Business Category > Business Finance Forum >  A peek inside the SA Reserve Bank

## Dave A

I didn't know the SA Reserve Bank had public shareholders! This is quite a revealing story on aspects of what is going on at the SARB.



> The attitude of one of the shareholders at the South African Reserve Bank's 88th ordinary annual general meeting (AGM) was racist, Reserve Bank Governor Tito Mboweni said on Thursday. 
> 
> "I shall not permit you to talk to me like whites used to talk to blacks," Mboweni told shareholder Mario Pretorius.
> 
> Pretorius twice told Mboweni he wanted to bring a point of order to the meeting, and when he was not acknowledged he said: "Shocking," which prompted the governor's response.


Mr. Pretorius is right. The chairman of a meeting ignoring a call on a point of order is... out of order!



> Another shareholder, Michael Duerr, told Mboweni he wanted to bring to shareholders' attention the failure to circulate to shareholders important items of special business proposed and on the agenda.
> 
> "The omission is deliberate," Duerr said. 
> 
> Mboweni found Duerr out of order.
> 
> After the meeting, Duerr -- who holds 5% of the Reserve Bank's shares --issued a press statement claiming that, since 1920, the influence of shareholders at the bank had been gradually and drastically inhibited.
> 
> Duerr said the meeting should have been abandoned to give shareholders proper notice of the special business to be discussed as part of the AGM. That business included a discussion of flagrant contraventions by SARB employees.
> ...


Straight out of the book on _How to lose financiers and piss of people_, by the looks of things.

Apart from raising some really questionable behaviour issues, this story has got me asking - what *is* the role of the shareholder in the SARB?

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## murdock

i feel this country is becoming more of a raciest country than even in the appartheid days...from both sides...i have been disriminated against more than ever and as for the adverts on TV always portraying white middle aged males as dumb nerds...i just wish i could find some of these bright educated cool black dudes i have pletty work opitunities for one of them...especially if they have a "recognised trade" and just a little savy  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 

i know there is handful of them out there... but they have all been snapped up for TV ads :Wink:

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## Dave A

Yeah yeah. Same o. Maybe we should start a racism thread.

But let's hone in on the Reserve Bank itself here. The thing that fascinates me - I would have expected *government* to be the sole shareholder for something like the Reserve Bank. I wonder if a list of major shareholders and their interest is publicly available?

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## Dave A

Just goes to show - you get what you look for. I've come across this report which sheds some light on the topic.



> *Why own a stake in a policy body?* 
> September 19, 2008
> 
> By Ethel Hazelhurst
> 
> The Reserve Bank is one of only nine privately owned central banks. Shareholders are limited to 10 000 shares each and are allowed one vote for each 200 shares they hold. 
> 
> Shareholders include banks and other large corporations, as well as individuals.
> 
> ...


All the more reason to treat shareholders with a little respect, I'd think.

Thanks Ethel.

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## Yvonne

I am positive that there are many South African today, as we were! that are stunned at the news that the Reserve Bank has private shareholders!

Yvonne

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## Sieg

Noseweek carried an article on Herr Duerr's duel with his eminence, Governor Tito Mboweni, in its March 2008 edition. 

http://www.noseweek.co.za/article.ph...t_article=1657

Sieg

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## Dave A

I see Mario Pretorius isn't taking the racist remark lying down.



> A letter asking Reserve Bank Governor Tito Mboweni to apologise for accusing a shareholder of speaking in a racist manner at the bank's general meeting has been sent to his personal lawyers to deal with, his spokesperson said on Tuesday. 
> 
> The letter -- from a shareholder's lawyer -- was sent to the bank on Friday following a comment made by Mboweni to shareholder Mario Pretorius at the annual meeting on September 19.
> 
> According to the letter, Pretorius asked Mboweni at the AGM to bring the meeting to order. Mboweni apparently refused, and Pretorius responded by saying "shocking".
> 
> âI shall not permit you to talk to me like whites used to talk to blacks", Mboweni was reported to have said.
> 
> Pretorius, through his lawyer, Johan van Huyssteens, requested a public apology for the accusation that he spoke to the governor in a racist manner.
> ...


Anyone else think Mario stands a better chance getting a cheque than getting a public apology?

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## Dave A

As predicted...



> South African Reserve Bank Governor Tito Mboweni did not apologise on Friday for an allegedly racist jibe he is accused of making to a shareholder at the bank's September 18 annual general meeting. 
> 
> Instead, he denied the allegations in a letter written by his lawyers to shareholder Mario Pretorius.
> full story from M&G here

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## duncan drennan

With tapes of this on the news every night, what does everyone think? Did Mboweni act in a racist manner?

To me, he might not have handled the matter in the best way possible, but it feels like Pretorius is making a mountain out of a molehill. Suck it up and get on with life, nobody would have even known what happened in that meeting if it wasn't for this complaint. What do you guys think?

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## Morticia

Sorry, but what's good for the goose is good for the gander!  It's just my perception but under the current government the racist card is plucked out at every conceivable opportunity.  When the opposition makes an issue over a wrongful accusation it's either "I was quoted out of context" or "I categorically deny ever saying that".  

It's high time they stop hiding behind a racist excuse and take justified critisism on the chin like a man!!

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## Dave A

> Did Mboweni act in a racist manner?


Let's see...



> "I shall not permit you to talk to me like whites used to talk to blacks," Mboweni told shareholder Mario Pretorius.


Shades of Verwoed? Yep - he's a racist.

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## Graeme

Mboweni said he would not reply because Duerr is not a permanent resident.
Since when did a shareholder have to be a permanent resident?

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## Frankincense

Here's a bit extra ....."Once again, although dividends are limited to 10c/share, for the 2 million issued shares, and share ownership is limited to 10 000, it is clearly stated that those who owned more than 10 000 before the limitation, could keep their shares. If you undertand these concepts, you would understand that since we no longer follow the gold standard, the only thing that gives our money value is "confidence" in it. Also the governments ability to levy income tax on us plays a significant role in determining the strength of our currency, explained in a very simplified way. Also, look at the statements on the reserve bank. They hold most of the country's local debt. Back to the American Federal Reserve Bank. The ownership of that central bank is by 12 other local banks in New York.(SARB owned by 9 Central Banks)They have a direct stake in the Federal Reserve. The most brilliant thing they ever did was to get rid of the gold standard...This enabled them to print as much money as they needed, and since it was not backed by physical gold, this money was more or less created out of thin air, and then loaned to the US government! The US government used income tax of its citizens as collateral for these loans!!! (once again simplified explanation). Think about this, before 1913, the US never payed income tax, as this was a direct tax on a persons labour and was not apportioned (16th amendment). But once the Fed was established americans were forced to pay income tax, all to fund interest payment on the debt! Ronald Reagan commissioned a study that indicated that ALL the income tax was used to pay for the INTEREST on the debt! When I look at our situation, our Reserve Bank is *privately owned*, and when you talk of a low dividend, I ask you, what is the point of privatisation if you are only getting a 10 % return? Also, our government is indebted to the Reserve Bank! , on the economic cycles, these guys manipulate the supply and demand of money, and in that way they are able to get REAL ASSETTS for their paper money. Using the money multiplier, they loan out money they dont technically have, and when the rates rise, they reposess a tangible asset, like a business/house/property etc. In this way they now own the tangible assets, all for the price of a few numbers on a screen. 

The first problem is that the world governments (SARB) are lying to us about the true statistics - why the economy is worse than we are lead to believe.

If one crunched the numbers as was done a few decades ago, then US inflation would be as high as 12% and not the alleged present 4.5%. Unemployment would be 9 to 12% and not the 5.5% claimed presently. Growth would be 1% and not 3.5%. If these correct figures were used then US interest rates would triple. *It's believed that when this cover up is blown and the public realise they have been lied to, the markets will collapse big time.*

The same is happening in *SA.* The official inflation is 11% yet plastics, paper and steel have all gone up more than 20% since last year. Food and fuel are also rocketing ever higher. I don't buy in to a figure of inflation @ 11%. 20% maybe - in which case interest rates should definitely be 25%.

It's interesting that the present stage of the housing cycle is very similar to early 1985. The graphs are very similar but the main difference is that back then interest rates were already up at 23% by this stage. I suspect that if the government wasn't lying to us, we would also be above 20% by now. 


I really need that list of shareholders and percentage interests..gotta tie it up.. :Cool:

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## Dave A

> The most brilliant thing they ever did was to get rid of the gold standard...This enabled them to print as much money as they needed, and since it was not backed by physical gold, this money was more or less created out of thin air,


True, but that money supply has to be carefully managed though. If they oversupply, we'll see runaway inflation - Zimbabwe is a classic example.



> I ask you, what is the point of privatisation if you are only getting a 10 % return?


A 10c dividend on an R11 share is less than 1%, but we share the same question. The answer, apparently, is prestige and information.

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## Frankincense

I called SARB today and was told by "Agent X" that SARB is not authorising the issuing of the SARB Shareholders Register  :Wink: 

 My supposition was: "I would like to buy shares, but would like to know who all my partners are, as that is at least an aspirant shareholder's right?"  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic): 

They took my number and said someone would call me back. I have not recieved the call to date  :No: 

I believe I know why they wont make it public knowledge as the leaders do not want to be implicated at this stage publically.

"If they oversupply, we'll see runaway inflation - Zimbabwe is a classic example" -* Agreed 100%* , thing is currencies are now being devalued internationally [purposefully calculated collapses, but not publically revealed]to drive the unification strategy now apparent to those researching the "buying and selling without the mark"

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?p...d=aP5mpMUORBWM

They will only be as carfull with money supply as the results they desire, and those are scary :Innocent: 

http://www.henrymakow.com/illuminati...ek_revolu.html

"*A 10c dividend on an R11 share is less than 1%, but we share the same question."* 

I have an answer : The share price was around R3800 per share, then devalued, delisted and opened to private trading. That means the power of control still lays with those behind the curtain we "may not peek into" unless they call me and reveal all, but they are slightly intellligent creatures.... :Censored: 

Oh well...all that is hidden shall be revealed...tick tock...time is moving... :Rockon:

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## Dave A

From the Henry Makow link:



> Recently I was accused of making the Illuminati my paranoid religion and fitting everything into this pattern. I agreed that people do seek a system to explain the world. My accuser's assumption was that no "religion" ever is true.  I disagree. Although I would love to be wrong, Illuminati conspiracy does explain reality convincingly.


The problem is every religion is true in the eyes of its adherents. Thus I'm afraid Henry and other adherents of the conspiracy theory cannot be trusted to be objective in this "religion," no matter how hard they try.

I think this is as good a test of objectivity as any:



> Barrack Obama is pictured above giving the Illuminati sign of Baphomet. Yes, technically the thumb should be folded in, and his excuse is that it is the American Sign Language "I Love You." Just like Bush who pretended this was the Texas Longhorn sign, these Satanists need a cover story.


Thinly disguised signal of the Illuminati or just one of the guys from the hood in high spirits?

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## Frankincense

"The problem is every religion is true in the eyes of its adherents."

I dont see that as a *problem* - that is part of the greatest gift given to mankind and that is to be able to have faith in things unseen so that that which is ultimately the truth would be rewarding to those that adhered to the principles until the end of it whilst others chose to reject and scoff  :Yes: 

God forbids that your religion may not be true in your own eyes, lest is becomes meaningless to you.

By you believing that adherence to your religion is right, should not be reason alone for anyone to disbelieve it? I'd say the contents thereof are of more relvance for any desicion making.

 "Thus I'm *afraid* Henry and other adherents of the conspiracy theory cannot be trusted to be objective in this "religion," no matter how hard they try."

"afraid"....Indeed, "....work out thy salvation with fear and trembling"

I'd say learn to trust *your* own gut, and not other men's :No:  Has there been one man ever to be truelly objective? Everybody needs a bit of faith, and faith eliminates all objectivity :Innocent:  

All theories are based on a certain amount of faith, untill prooven fact or fiction. These events mentioned are being interpreted by many scholars universally for years. I am reasonably comfortable with the interpretations and find them inline with biblical prophecies, should that matter.

I trust your decisions will be informed whichever "truth" you accept as your authority. 

Dave, what do you believe is the reason why the SARB will not allow us to see *who controls* the voting powers of our money supply in SA? :Hmmm:

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## Dave A

After that interlude on objectivity... (Sorry everyone - my fault for raising it)



> Dave, what do you believe is the reason why the SARB will not allow us to see *who controls* the voting powers of our money supply in SA?


I'd question how much control the shareholders have anyway when it comes to the SARB. But since you asked, my theory would be:

The shareholders register changes on a regular basis. Providing access to the list of shareholders to all and sundry is not a statutory requirement and doing it _ad hoc_ is a PITA. However, the shareholders register really matters at a general meeting of the shareholders. I'm sure any shareholder could ask to peruse the list of shareholders in the run-up to or during such a meeting.

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## msmoorad

> After that interlude on objectivity... (Sorry everyone - my fault for raising it)
> 
> I'd question how much control the shareholders have anyway when it comes to the SARB. But since you asked, my theory would be:
> 
> The shareholders register changes on a regular basis. Providing access to the list of shareholders to all and sundry is not a statutory requirement and doing it _ad hoc_ is a PITA. However, the shareholders register really matters at a general meeting of the shareholders. I'm sure any shareholder could ask to peruse the list of shareholders in the run-up to or during such a meeting.



i think the current system of banking/business is the cause of all the poverty- go back to the gold standard or begin bartering and then you will cut out the fat-cat bankers (local & intnl) who are just blood sucking parasites.
i think you guys should speak to people like COSATU etc and make them see/understand the BIG PICTURE abouth the SARB & the US federal reserve & the intnl bankers.
how about de beers- they are owned by the oppenheimers-orig cecil john rhodes who was backed by the rothschilds waged war with the boers for control of the land where the gold/diamond deposits were located.
the same rothschild began his career working for the Oppenheimers in germany.
now these people are relaxing in London & NY while people are slogging for them & losing their lives regularly  in our mines.
where is this gold & diamonds going to to?
how much does our country receive from this wealth?


i dont know much about how the business world works but i know this much- the system is corrupt and those who run  the system are even more corrupt.

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Frankincense (03-Feb-09)

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## Dave A

> Shareholders want to be heard at the South African Reserve Bank's annual general meeting (AGM), one of the shareholders said on Monday. 
> 
> "It is our meeting where we want to be heard and would like to transact what we are entitled to," shareholder Mario Pretorius said in an open letter to Reserve Bank Governor Tito Mboweni.
> 
> This followed a stormy AGM last week, when some of the bank's shareholders and Mboweni locked horns.
> full story from M&G here


Yep - our friend Mario Pretorius again. And look at his questions:



> Pretorius said he wanted to address a question to the chairperson of the Reserve Bank's remuneration committee.
> 
> He said he wished to ascertain how the committee justified the 14% raise in remuneration of the governor, cost to company, to R4,3-million a year.
> 
> Pretorius said there was presently world-wide sensitivity to excessive remuneration of banking officials.
> 
> He said the Reserve Bank's profit had dropped by 61% this year and the governor had received a 42% pay rise for the past two years.
> 
> "The governor is already the third highest paid central bank official in the world, earning three times more than, by comparison, Mr Ben Bernanke at the New York Federal Reserve in the US," Pretorius said.
> ...


Apparently these were questions that fell outside of the AGMs ambit. But they're interesting questions, don't you think?

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Frankincense (23-Sep-09)

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## Frankincense

It will be as it is written, the controllers of money and credit will earn more than Presidents and World Leaders  :Yes: , afterall, they are the true Presidents of the 666 rollout :Slayer: ... political parties, even the baby ANC won't EVER come in the way of the roll out.... :Slap: 

Great POST Dave!!!

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## sgafc

As always, Francois, you and I(and Dave :Smile: ) are on the same page...See the quotes on "Fractional Reserve Lending". These are assertions coming from people on the inside, not us! The SA Reserve Bank is heading down the same slippery slopes as the Federal Reserve(US). The US Fed Reserve was never audited. The SA Reserve whilst audited, lacks transparency :EEK!:

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## Dave A

> As always, Francois, you and I(and Dave) are on the same page...


An observation that certainly gave me pause for thought, Sean  :Stick Out Tongue:  
And perhaps fair enough except I don't seem to share Francois' faith in pre-ordination according to revelations.

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## Dave A

> I called SARB today and was told by "Agent X" that SARB is not authorising the issuing of the SARB Shareholders Register


I thought you might be interested to know that in terms of Section 26 of the new Companies Act, a "person who holds or has a beneficial interest in any securities issued by a company" is entitled to inspect and copy the information contained in the securities register.

I guess you need to be a shareholder...

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## msmoorad

my first post in a while...
from what i know, our reserve bank is more or less administered & run the same way as most reserve banks worldwide.
this basically means its linked to the bank of england & the US federal reserve banks & the crooks that run it.IE the Rothschilds, & their cronies.
most people here dont like to get to the point ot maybe they just believe whatever is on the news.
blood sucking parasites.

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Frankincense (05-Oct-09)

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## Frankincense

@sgafc: "As always, Francois, you and I(and Dave) are on the same page"

Not quite: "I(Dave) don't seem to share Francois' faith in pre-ordination "

Dave, How else do you see the rolling out of the 666 mark without which no one can buy or sell? :Hmmm: 

It is sad that we cannot agree on these simple realities, but the good thing is this forum will bear testimony to those who reject and accept whatever is revealed.

@MSMOORAD: Yes, some people don't like the truth, and will show their doubt but choosing either side of an issue as is suites them.

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## irneb

Not sure about the SA Reserve Bank's origins (and thus it's shareholding). This does seem to be very secretive. However, if you look at the origins of the US Fed (http://news.goldseek.com/GoldSeek/1095269452.php) - why would the SA version be that much different?

A "private" corporation owned by shareholders (not published  :EEK!: ) having total control over a country's currency - without the need for consensus from government on policy changes: "We'll raise / lower interest rates at this date."; "We'll print X amount more Rands at such a time"; etc. Has anyone ever heard these phrases in parliament? Proof that they don't even have to notify parliament of their policies ... now who's actually running the country?

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## sgafc

> Not sure about the SA Reserve Bank's origins (and thus it's shareholding). This does seem to be very secretive. However, if you look at the origins of the US Fed (http://news.goldseek.com/GoldSeek/1095269452.php) - why would the SA version be that much different?
> 
> A "private" corporation owned by shareholders (not published ) having total control over a country's currency - without the need for consensus from government on policy changes: "We'll raise / lower interest rates at this date."; "We'll print X amount more Rands at such a time"; etc. Has anyone ever heard these phrases in parliament? Proof that they don't even have to notify parliament of their policies ... now who's actually running the country?


Excellent observation. The belief that governments control central banks, and are responsible for the "printing and minting" of money is a lie. Private individuals own the central banks. And commercial banks bring money into circulation, NOT central banks.  It would have been great if governments could bring money into circulation, interest-free. Unfortunately this is not the case... :Frown:

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## Dave A

Governments don't have enough power already?

Be careful what you wish for. Government isn't always benign. There needs to be checks and balances.

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## sgafc

True, not that I trust government. But historically the involvement of banksters in the creation of money has led to numerous problems. Banks lend money to the government, and demand it back with interest(read taxes), as opposed to government bringing  money into circulation. The printing of money in the current scenario has nothing to do with government. The printing/minting is done on behalf of banks, who are always in need of "real" cash for their ATM's and vaults(in case people withdraw their investments).

In the US, demands are made by REAL economists, that the money be distributed to the Treasury Department of Government(not banks)!

Money is created artificially by banks(fractional reserve lending), numbers transferred from computer to computer, credit(and debit) cards. Which is 10 to 50 times, more than real money/goods in circulation. Creating and inflating the commercial banks assets, and profiting unfairly from the process altogether. The printed money serves as back-up, just in case... Why the insistence that we go electronic/ eft. Theoretical money enables the banks to create more fresh air money, plus bank/admin charges. Dont think that R1000 in the bank, equals R1000 cash on hand. It has the same buying power, but is not necessarily the same! :Big Grin:

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## Dave A

> Why the insistence that we go electronic/ eft.


Reduced transaction processing costs and it's safer (from a hazardous theft point of view)?



> Theoretical money enables the banks to create more fresh air money, plus bank/admin charges.


 :Hmmm:  This one used to trouble me too once upon a time - the notion of being able to create theoretical electronic money out of fresh air. There are a few problems to overcome, though.

First there's the audit. If you're fiddling value like this, it's going to be tough to explain how you gave all those interest bearing loans when you didn't have the money to cover them. Anomalies should show up in the balance sheet. (OK - I concede there is already more than enough evidence that audits haven't always managed to catch the rotten eggs, but it's a hurdle).

Next, there is interbank transactions. Dialing up an extra nought on your bank balance is no problem on your own systems - not possible when you've got to spirit your expanded balance onto someone else's system.

But I've saved the best for last. 

Try as you might, you can't hide the consequences of money oversupply. Look at Zimbabwe, a classic case of a government printing its own money (read conning its citizens) without an underpinning value derived, at the very least, from supply and demand. And then there was the Barterchek case I mentioned in another thread.

When banks (even central banks) start massaging the numbers it'll show. Perhaps not instantly, but soon enough.

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## Frankincense

Personally I'm not concerned about whether or not the government has enough power or not......we speaking of the Reserve bank.... :Offtopic: 

@Dave: "Be careful what you wish for. Government isn't always benign. There needs to be checks and balances.".....the Reserve Bank has an agreement with Parliament to hand over a certain amount of it's profits in return for the sole mandate to be the independant money supplier/monopolist....this must be the checks and balances you are speaking of...lol

'First there's the audit. If you're fiddling value like this, it's going to be tough to explain how you gave all those interest bearing loans when you didn't have the money to cover them."

In SA you don't have to worry about the audit.... as long as I comply with Basil I & II and maintain my 10 % capital ratios... it's business as usuall creating money outta thin air..it's perfectly legal and auditable √ (I may be an Auditor)

Clip from : http://www.theforumsa.co.za/forums/s...ead.php?t=5891 
Post #9 - it's hot!!!!

Here goes...all aboard???........I recieve R100 as deposit...I must keep 10% = R10 then I may now borrow to someone else R90...who in turn pops that R90 into their savings account with my bank again...now I have R100 + the R90 I borrowed as I fullfiled my BASIL requirement to keep 10% reserve.....so what was R100 has already become R1o0 initial deposit + R10 reserve + R90 redeposited which I am allowed to create outta nothing...

That is inflation 101 explained in simplistic terms...I make money outta nothin...and no one except God Himself will destroy this.....all becuase it's designed like this...oh...the R90 you reinvested with me...I'm gonna keep R9 and borrow the other...R81...and so on, and so on...

...now work out if a couple of people invest a couple of million in the bank???


@Sgafc:"Why the insistence that we go electronic/ eft. Theoretical money enables the banks to create more fresh air money, plus bank/admin charges." .....yes, to make easy money , but there's a greater purpose why you will be forced to resort to electronic buying and selling / transactioning.... :Scooter:

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## irneb

> Personally I'm not concerned about whether or not the government has enough power or not......we speaking of the Reserve bank....
> 
> @Dave: "Be careful what you wish for. Government isn't always benign. There needs to be checks and balances.".....the Reserve Bank has an agreement with Parliament to hand over a certain amount of it's profits in return for the sole mandate to be the independant money supplier/monopolist....this must be the checks and balances you are speaking of...lol
> 
> 'First there's the audit. If you're fiddling value like this, it's going to be tough to explain how you gave all those interest bearing loans when you didn't have the money to cover them."
> 
> In SA you don't have to worry about the audit.... as long as I comply with Basil I & II and maintain my 10 % capital ratios... it's business as usuall creating money outta thin air..it's perfectly legal and auditable √ (I may be an Auditor)
> 
> Clip from : http://www.theforumsa.co.za/forums/s...ead.php?t=5891 
> ...


Yep, if you want some inication of just how prevalent this "thin-air" money is ... check the versions of money supply here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Money_supply. E.g. the M0 (actual notes & coins) US$ was at $759bil in Dec 2007, while the M2 (includes deposits, check accounts, savings deposits, etc.) was at $7447bil at the same time. Note that US stopped publishing M3 (long term deposits, money market accounts, etc.). That's 10x more used money in "circulation" than actual notes & coins.

BTW, interest rates also "create money". Say you've borrowed R1000 @ 10% interest. Apart from all the other "magic" going on (read the above link) after a year there's "somehow" another R100 (or a little more due to compounding) in "circulation". No-one created it ... it simply came into being because of interest, well you could say the bank created it through charging interest.

As for electronic money ... I personally "think" the true reason behind it is: "It's a lot simpler hitting a few keys than inking up the press."

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## irneb

I think I'm going to change my signature to this:

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## sgafc

Personally I'm not concerned about whether or not the government has enough power or not......we speaking of the Reserve bank.... :Offtopic: 



 Anyone who cares to study the "invention" of money with an open mind will realise that money is not "our" creation. It was foisted upon us with the sole purpose of manipulation and control....by the banksters...

In as much as money has benefits, apart from its obvious value, ie measuring economic activity and recording business transactions. Another purpose was to supplant the value of genuine goods and services to the benefit of one party. The Banks and the Ruling Global Elite..

Reports emanating from banking(Reserve Bank), sources itself, reveal that banks lend substantially more money than their deposits in reserve. Where does the additional funds come from? If I have R1000 , I can only lend R1000, finish and klaar. But banks lend far more, and charge interest on it.

@Francois. You right. The goal is to eliminate money as we know it and replace it with the "Mark of the Beast". Is this a joke?? Ever heard of microchips? On cards yes, on humans... look it up, dont take my word for it. In another year or two this will be the norm...unless people wake up :Frown:

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## Frankincense

@Sgafc:

I don't expect many people to agree with me at this "early stage" of the roll out...although as *we* can see, it's not that early  :Yikes: , but the power the media has on sheeple is remarkable. Lord have mercy! Alot of people in this forum realise already they are bound to the very same financial institutions that will insist on marking them and thier families soon. As mentioned it will be shrouded in claims of "better transactional security"...and "ease of transacting vs. old methods"....

Yes, it is very naive to argue that Banks are just a normal business and that  money comes in and money goes out...and claim we are not taking into account the outflows of the bank  :Yes:  Irrespective of the outflows, this is the Global scam of all time. 

We also need to be cautious as some members of the forum will show they support this behaviour by providing floored contra-arguments  and off topic remarks.

I thank my God for enabling me to recognise the transactional sentiment in His Word about "buying and selling".....and being knowledgable in business, have very little option but to recognize, but let people make up their minds for themselves....many of them are old and are not ready to accept their entire understanding of their existence, patriotism, brand loyalty is not what it appears, and will look for ways to carry on as normal blabbering about "what if's"...and "when we..."...and ..."originally this and thats..." 

Banks are the tool to roll out "no buying or selling without this and that"...whether people accept it or not.

As usual...when I start saying something about the future...few agree...and slowly as events transpire, the following of that school of thought grows...eventually what was yesterdays conspiracy theory becomes todays text book facts on how not to do things....lol

Do not stop....watchmen will be placed on the wall to warn the poeple, and some will say "why you making a loud noise in the middle of the night, we want to sleep,  :Shutup2: "....and other's hearken and prepare and teach understanding.

Great Forum!

 :Gunsmilie:

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sgafc (14-Oct-09)

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## sgafc

Francois  Preach on Brother :Clap:

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Frankincense (14-Oct-09)

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## msmoorad

> Not sure about the SA Reserve Bank's origins (and thus it's shareholding). This does seem to be very secretive. However, if you look at the origins of the US Fed (http://news.goldseek.com/GoldSeek/1095269452.php) - why would the SA version be that much different?
> 
> A "private" corporation owned by shareholders (not published ) having total control over a country's currency - without the need for consensus from government on policy changes: "We'll raise / lower interest rates at this date."; "We'll print X amount more Rands at such a time"; etc. Has anyone ever heard these phrases in parliament? Proof that they don't even have to notify parliament of their policies ... now who's actually running the country?


the people who really control the SA reserve bank are really not even south africans- its all done in the City of London -which is a part of greater London & is the real financial centre of the world- even Wall Str is controlled by them- the Rothschilds.
seems far fetched?
then read- wake up= search the net.
maybe people are afraid of being called anti-semitist if they speak the truth.

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## sgafc

> the people who really control the SA reserve bank are really not even south africans- its all done in the City of London -which is a part of greater London & is the real financial centre of the world- even Wall Str is controlled by them- the Rothschilds.
> seems far fetched?
> then read- wake up= search the net.
> maybe people are afraid of being called anti-semitist if they speak the truth.


History books  all point to THIS family's involvement in shady banking/finance deals. Cecil John Rhodes was financed by the Rothchilds in his African expansion endeavours.(1800's). Absa is partly owned by the Rothchilds, so are most of the American and European Banks today(2000's). ..Just a COINCIDENCE of course :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## Frankincense

"maybe people are afraid of being called anti-semitist if they speak the truth."

These Guys don't give a damn what religion you are....Semitic/anti-Semitic/Muslim/Jew/Zionist/Rasta.....these guys believe in degeneration..which is not a core value of any earthy religion...besides Satanism of course....(others)

So if you represent the truth of a matter in any topic, from any religious point of view...if it ain't what they have planned...be carefull to whom you speak up!
 :Gun Bandana:  :Fish:

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## msmoorad

why i say anti semitism is that 99% of the intl banker/financiers/industrialists are Jewsish- actually those at the top are Satanists.
they use the anti-semitism card whever they are exposed. and their financial clout even ensures that those in govt positions in most countries or in any decision making position are under their control.
the rest of the Jewish people are trained to think that it is them that is being threatened somehow.
so they hide behind the righteous indignation of their brethren.

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## Dave A

If ever you needed proof you can't believe everything you read on the internet...  :No:

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## sgafc

Allegations of rituals killings at Rothchilds villas are all over the internet. Hard to believe, yes. But surely the Rotchilds with all their money can take the web owners spreading these "lies" to court? One blog owner challenged them to do exactly that, and undertook to produce the evidence...nothing happened.

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## Frankincense

...in light of the way in which they have *openly* handled global affairs within their family's ambit (The Rothschilds), witnessing these *alledged* killings wouldn't add much *terribleness* to the hundreds of thousands they kill in the wars they sponsor over the many years.... :Yes:

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## I Robot

Cabinet approves the South African Reserve Bank Amendment                               Bill   

3 May 2010 

The South African Reserve Bank (SARB) is a crucial national institution which is required by the Constitution to serve the economic interests of all South Africans. The Constitution mandates the SARB to perform its functions independently and government will continue to ensure that this independence is not compromised. 

Section 224(2) of the Constitution requires that the SARB "in pursuit of its primary object, must perform its functions independently and without fear, favour or prejudice" 

The bank was established in 1921, and is still governed by an Act of Parliament (1989) that precedes the Constitution. The bank also has private shareholders. This requires government to regulate the activities of the private shareholders to ensure that their interests do not undermine public interest and that the SARB's independence is not interfered with. 

It has come to the attention of government that a number of shareholders are involved in activities which could undermine the bank's independence. 

The governor of the Reserve Bank had conveyed these concerns to shareholders in March this year, stating that "profit making should never be a motive for holding shares in the bank. 

The bank is neither desired nor expected to maximise profits. The fixed dividend paid and the limited voting rights available to private shareholders underline the fact that the bank, like its counterparts in other countries is; a public entity that acts in the public interest, self-interested profit motive of a very small minority of shareholders, does not appear to care about the national interests of the Republic of South Africa". 

Cabinet considers this to be unacceptable and has agreed that urgent legislative steps must be taken to protect the bank's independence. 

At its last meeting on 21 April 2010, Cabinet decided to: 

* Further secure the independence of the bank and ensure that it continues to serve the national interest
* Approve the South African Reserve Bank Amendment Bill for tabling to Parliament. The bill proposes amendments to the principal South African 
Reserve Bank Act of 1989, and introduces measures to prevent negative interference in the operations of the SARB
* Initiate a total review of the legislative framework of the SARB with a view to entrench the independence of the SARB and its role in enhancing South Africa's national economic interests. 

The bill proposes the following: 

* Reinforcing the requirements on the limitation on shareholding to prevent abuse by shareholders
* Amending certain definitions in the principal SARB Act
* Clarifying the powers and functions of the SARB Board
* Providing for the establishment of a panel for the election of directors to the SARB board
* Providing for the nomination of directors by a broader base of the South African public
* Broadening representation on the SARB Board
* Defining clear criteria to disqualify persons from serving on the Board and
* Providing for the possible re-appointment of the governor and deputy governor to serve terms of office of less than five years. 

Details of amendments: 

* Limit the scope of circumventing shareholder rules 

The act currently limits shareholding to a maximum of 10 000 shares per shareholder. The amendments to the act seek to curb circumvention of this limit by introducing the concept of "associate" and "close relative" and extend the restriction to such associates and close relatives. 

The purpose is to ensure that no shareholder can create a "bloc" of voting interests; thereby exerting influence that was clearly intended to be limited by setting a maximum number of shares that could be owned and voted on by any individual or institution. 

* Broaden the base for nomination of directors on the board 

The act currently provides for the election of seven independent directors by the shareholders. The amendments broaden the base from which to draw independent directors by enabling nominations to be made by the general public. The act also requires four directors with expertise in commerce and finance. 

The amendments reduce the number of directors with expertise in commerce or finance to two and substitute the same with expertise in labour and mining. The number of government appointed directors will be increased from three to four, taking the size of the board to 15. 

* Defining clear criteria for disqualification as director 

The grounds for disqualification of serving directors provided for in the act are insufficient for corporate governance purposes. The amendments seek to extend the grounds to include un-rehabilitated insolvents, persons dismissed from positions of trust for misconduct, persons with criminal records and persons with mental and other incapacities. 

The amendments provide for termination of directorship as a result of unexcused absenteeism, failure to disclose conflicts of interests, unlawful disclosure of confidential information and breach of duty. 

* Introduction of fit and proper requirements for directors 

The lack of criteria for the appointment to the board could lead to the appointment of unsuitable directors adversely affecting the governance of the Bank and impairing independence. The amendments introduce fit and proper requirements based on an objective assessment commensurate with skills and experience. 

The amendments further make it clear that directors owe their fiduciary duties and duties of care and skill to the bank. The amendments also introduce a screening process for the appointment of directors. 

* Clarification of the role of the board 

The amendments reinforce the corporate governance role of the board and firmly vest the bank's other powers and duties in the governor and deputy governors. 

* Term of office of the governor and deputy governors 

The act currently prescribes tenure of five years for the appointment of the governor and deputy governors. The amendments introduce flexibility when a second or subsequent terms are considered, enabling reappointment to be for an agreed period of not more than five years per term. 

Legislative process 

These amendments will be submitted to the Speaker of Parliament and will be gazetted for public comment during the course of the week starting on 3 May 2010. Public hearings are envisaged to be held from mid May 2010. 

Interested persons and institutions are invited to submit written representations on the bill to the secretary to Parliament by no later than 17 May 2010. Further documents will be available electronically on the National Treasury website: http://www.treasury.gov.za. 

Public submissions must be addressed to:
The Secretary to Parliament
Care of (c/o): Mr Bradley Viljoen 
Committee Section
Parliament of the Republic of South Africa 
P.O. Box 15
Cape Town
8000 

Mr B Viljoen can be contacted at:
Tel: 021 403 3759
Fax: 021 403 8204
E-mail: bviljoen@parliament.gov.za 

More...

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Frankincense (04-May-10)

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## Dave A

> The act currently provides for the election of seven independent directors by the shareholders. The amendments broaden the base from which to draw independent directors by enabling nominations to be made by the general public. The act also requires four directors with expertise in commerce and finance. 
> 
> The amendments reduce the number of directors with expertise in commerce or finance to two and substitute the same with expertise in labour and mining.


 :Hmmm:  Whitling away from the financial expertise requirements - I *really* don't think that's a good idea.

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## irneb

> * Limit the scope of circumventing shareholder rules 
> 
> The act currently limits shareholding to a maximum of 10 000 shares per shareholder. The amendments to the act seek to curb circumvention of this limit by introducing the concept of "associate" and "close relative" and extend the restriction to such associates and close relatives. 
> 
> The purpose is to ensure that no shareholder can create a "bloc" of voting interests; thereby exerting influence that was clearly intended to be limited by setting a maximum number of shares that could be owned and voted on by any individual or institution.


Yeah right, they'll be able to police this worldwide! It's not very difficult to hide your identity / affiliations behind several layers of different countries' rules. I'd rather want to see this changed to disallowing shareholders who are not RSA citizens!




> * Broaden the base for nomination of directors on the board 
> 
> The act currently provides for the election of seven independent directors by the shareholders. The amendments broaden the base from which to draw independent directors by enabling nominations to be made by the general public. The act also requires four directors with expertise in commerce and finance. 
> 
> The amendments reduce the number of directors with expertise in commerce or finance to two and substitute the same with expertise in labour and mining. The number of government appointed directors will be increased from three to four, taking the size of the board to 15.


Doesn't this actually contradict the previous? Or at least make it even more difficult to enforce? And why should the board be increased? Why not replace one of the privately appointed directors instead? And Dave's correct! Why lessen the expertise? It's like saying the board should become less able to perform its duties! Become less of a financial institution and more of a governmental hotch-potch of untrained & inexperienced leaders!




> * Defining clear criteria for disqualification as director 
> 
> The grounds for disqualification of serving directors provided for in the act are insufficient for corporate governance purposes. The amendments seek to extend the grounds to include un-rehabilitated insolvents, persons dismissed from positions of trust for misconduct, persons with criminal records and persons with mental and other incapacities. 
> 
> The amendments provide for termination of directorship as a result of unexcused absenteeism, failure to disclose conflicts of interests, unlawful disclosure of confidential information and breach of duty.


This to me is the most enlightening (or rather en-"darkening") of all. A  normal company's directors are already disqualified if they have been  found insolvent or guilty of some type of fraud. Just shows how open to corruption the SARB was (and still is before this act)!




> * Introduction of fit and proper requirements for directors 
> 
> The lack of criteria for the appointment to the board could lead to the appointment of unsuitable directors adversely affecting the governance of the Bank and impairing independence. The amendments introduce fit and proper requirements based on an objective assessment commensurate with skills and experience. 
> 
> The amendments further make it clear that directors owe their fiduciary duties and duties of care and skill to the bank. The amendments also introduce a screening process for the appointment of directors.


Scratch the previous, this is even worse! I.e. previously the director had no responsibility to the bank itself? WTF? Meaning he may do as he pleases, even if it's fraudulent!

What I'd like to know is what is meant by "fiduciary duty ... to the bank"? Is that "parental-like" responsibility to the aims of the SARB (i.e. to the country's economic welfare)? Or is it towards the shareholders - as defined in the company law where this same clause is aimed at the shareholders, rather than the company (as it's defined as 2 separate entities / groups). Or is this some sort of gray area - i.e a nothing clause, which sounds great, but does squat!

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## Frankincense

what to do?



it is alive!









Would you like to buy or sell? Welcome...you are free to do as we tell you.

 :Gunsmilie:

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## Frankincense

Peek - a - Boo!!! ....but the veil remains....  :Frown: 

http://www.sarb.cc/index.php?/categories/1-Shareholder


 :Gunsmilie: 

...as you may know by now....the "Illuminated" ones (founders) who own more than the 10 000 share cap only introduced in the early 2000's don't appear here on this "official register"........WTF!!!

666 for shizzle.....and some will sizzle.....

Genesis.....uuuhhhmmm......EXODUS!!!!!!
 :No: 






ALL of the organs of state are corporations privately owned (will provide links at the bottom of this post) and foreign corporations:

1. Parliament of South Africa
2. Republic of South Africa
3. Government of the Republic of South Africa
4. etc.

They are corporations masquerading as our “country” and our “government”. R.S.A’s “head office” is in Washington DC. Parliament and R.S.A are registered in NY. The SIC code for R.S.A is 8888 which according to an insider refers to a “Royal Corporation”.

The purpose of the structures on the outset may seem “legitimate” however the true intention is to create debt via a system that has been made plausible via legislation (otherwise it would be fraud). Its a dog and pony show with the aim of enriching international cartels via sophisticated debt mechanism. In a nut shell what happens is these companies take out massive international loans via these Cartels (that create this “money” out of thin air) and then make the people of the land work like slaves to pay this loan off via the fiat legal tender that the company R.S.A has legislated. One of the methods to generate these loans is to use organizations such as Eskom / Telkom / etc. to take out huge loans from the likes of the World Bank. The “Government” will take out loans as well as will SARB. Next the governments TAX the sh*t out of the people in order to re-pay these “loans”. This is how our energy leaves our communities never to return. Their police force (policy enforcement officers) are the stick they use to beat us into submission and the courts (another group of companies) is used to give us the false sense of security that there is justice. 

I have nothing against TAX as I want to give back to my community. If I could have it my way I would give 100% of my labour to my community, anyway,  only a ‘tiny’ percentage of TAX is going to make it back to where it is intended, the rest leaves our communities never to be seen again under the guise of paying off fraudulent debts that suffer from compound interest “that where taken out in our best interests…”.

Think of it this way, if this international money was valuable we would swap Gold (which we have in abundance) for all the loans we require thus eliminating the need to pay of interest. And once we where done with the “money” we would simply buy back the Gold with that “money”. No interest re=payments required no energy loss for our society and our Gold reserves neatly back in place. But of course that would not benefit the few with their myopic views and narrow minded bigoted attitudes who would rather destroy this world for their own good than see the people prosper.

Imagine we stop paying income tax because the definition of the “republic” in the act limits its jurisdiction to the corporation (you do not live in a corporation do you?)


Note – the name in your ID book / passport / Drivers license, is owned by R.S.A – that is why they can enforce company policy on you (since you mistakenly think the name is actually you... :Smile:  You have no obligation to play the role of the name. This will be our most powerful defense to tyranny...and once the buying and selling is clearly based on your name/number ....many will stop playing thier role...  :Smile:  Thank God!!!!

 I love this land, I love the people, and it hurts me when I see so much suffering and misery and hopelessness. 

Here are those links to the above corporations:

R.S.A: http://www.sec.gov/cgi-bin/browse-ed...clude&count=40

R.S.A – Government: http://www.sec.gov/cgi-bin/browse-ed...ion=getcompany

DnB: https://smallbusiness.dnb.com/ePlatf...ome*gws*lookup

SIC 8888 Other Royal Corporations: http://www.sec.gov/cgi-bin/browse-ed...art=0&count=40



SA is dominated by 4 banks... ABSA is the government bank controlled by the UK/Barclays/Rothschilds... The lifeboats arranged by the SARB for ABSA were  bigger then 5 Billion Rand... They got the money about 12 years ago... No penny is turned back, no interest is paid. In charge at this time, Deputy Governor of the SARB was Gill Marcus, later CEO of ABSA and today Governor of the SARB. Marcus, Mboweni, Stals, Gordhan, Manuel and Ramos blunder this country... It seemed necessary to ship more then 40 tons of Gold to London  – SARB and ABSA arranged it some months ago ... 

You are free to do as we tell you!

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irneb (13-Jul-10), tec0 (13-Jul-10)

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## tec0

Ok, maybe I am just stupid... if all land, mines and âprofitable businessesâ are taken and privatized by our government for government, then basically all this becomes the property of " UK/Barclays/Rothschilds... " ???  :Confused:

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## Frankincense

...you're not stupid!

...most of the wealth in the earth in the end times is controlled by a few....and your deduction is logical to say the least, and is guaranteed.

√ Approved.
 :Gunsmilie:

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## msmoorad

the info is out there on the nternet- what do people want?
Deborah Patta to explain it all on 3rd Degree?

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Frankincense (28-Aug-10)

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## tec0

> the info is out there on the nternet- what do people want?
> Deborah Patta to explain it all on 3rd Degree?


Information on its own is never enough. Why do people train to be doctors? With all the medical info on the net freely available still doesnât make you a doctor. If you are not trained to understand the information that you are given then that information in its self becomes useless. 

The truth is financial structures to a degree is simple enough, but then trough the use of math and wording the degree of difficulty increases dramatically. So yes a good explanation will be necessary to educate the masses. Spelling out the facts is exactly what is needed. 

More so when it comes to the complicated laws that govern these systems. Remember that not all of us are educated enough to understand the âinfoâ. I found that everything can be interpreted but interpreting something correctly requires understanding and skill.

Just remember confusion and misinterpretation was designed into the system.

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## Dave A

> The purpose of the structures on the outset may seem âlegitimateâ however the true intention is to create debt via a system that has been made plausible via legislation (otherwise it would be fraud).


Create debt - or is the *true intent* to provide access to capital that can be applied to generate a return even greater than the interest? It's only a debt trap if you misapply the funds.

 :Hmmm:  The way this government applies funds at times strengthens your argument  :Oops: 

Maybe I stand a better chance picking on this one.



> One of the methods to generate these loans is to use organizations such as Eskom / Telkom / etc. to take out huge loans from the likes of the World Bank. The âGovernmentâ will take out loans as well as will SARB.


Or we could live without more electricity until we scrape together the capital out of existing profits.  :Stick Out Tongue: 

Begs the question - is the devil in temptation itself, or the human trait of turning opportunity into a liability?

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## Frankincense

Indemnity/Immunity Declaration: You may only read this if you accept the following "The purpose of this post is not to offend anyone or any specific religion or group of peoples. It's merely a proposed reflection of ancient history from an individuals perspective, and not of "The Forum SA's nor God's as His plan is to be fulfilled shortly."

 ...so as we continue to discuss our concerns of International Banking cartels which obviously have direct interests in Africa (SA) and dawning is the realisation by now that the prophesy of no buying and selling without the mark Revelation 13:16 "He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead, so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark" revolves around generic authenticated transactional banking...I thought to quiz my brothers in Finance here....and provide a possible answer  :Sorry: 

Backround: Many primitive forms of money were counted just like coins. Cowrie shells, obtained from some islands in the Indian Ocean, were a very widely used primitive form of money - in fact they were still in use in some parts of the world (such as Nigeria) within living memory. "So important a role did the cowrie play as money in ancient China that its pictograph was adopted in their written language for money." Thus it is not surprising that among the earliest countable metallic money or "coins" were "cowries" made of bronze or copper, in China.

...so.... :Hmmm: 

What do

Pigs Feet...



Chinese Footbinding...



Pig Tails....

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## Frankincense

Piggy Banks....

 


High Heels....






all seem to have in common?



PIG Worship!!!!  :Slap: 

....ok....so the cat's out the bag.....Banking is a dirty game that started long ago....At the dawn of creation when the Chinese migrated eastwards from the cradle, as did all humans, their primary food source was Boar/Pig...using it's hair for combs, fat for lighting lamps, flesh for sustanance, it naturally became an idol of worship. The 2 primary attributes of any martial art is "speed and ferocity". Bells ringing yet why they also make pig scream sounds when fighting? The Ancient chinese warriors would shave their entire head, but leave one pigtail mimicing the PIG, thier God(Just check out Shaolin Monks/Buddha/Tong Po) Why do you think the emperors had the womans feet bound to look like little pig trotters? Because they found that godly! According to legend the Pig was to be honoured as god and when entering a house, it was to be fed, and allowed it's will. The youth were encouraged to  praise it and give tithes to it thus piggy banks, whilst the adults generally praised the Dragon. Even Buddah is always protrayed as FAT with one pigtail...as he resembled the PIG god.... more about this later should anyone have questions....you wont be able to find or verify this history with ease on the net ...but just thought to share this that i read many years ago....concerning banking...and benchmarking the "Yen"...which effects all others...

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## Frankincense

You are free to do as we tell you!
 :Gunsmilie: 

We however are free to do as we feel....for Tetragrammaton Saves!
 :Clap:

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## irneb

Here's a "fun" adage: Part V - Interviewing Past Presidents

So ... at least in the US the reserve bank(s) were never a perpetual crony group of mass thievery. They were canceled each time the brown stuff hit the spinning blades.

Wish they'd just kill these current banks and start from a clean slate! Obviously after repossessing all those big-wig fraudsters (the owners of these banks) assets and giving everyone a tax holiday of (let's say 50 years?)

Now that would boost the economy untold. Not to mention create new jobs like crazy!

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Frankincense (25-Jul-10)

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## Dave A

Slagging is so easy. You know what I don't see in the middle of all the slagging? 

Any form of solid proposal towards a genuinely viable alternative to do the job...

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## tec0

The truth is, it is very easy to say âthey have the powerâ or âthey control usâ. I frankly couldnât give a damn if âthey pump me full of mind controlling medicationâ. Once you realise that you are not in control of destiny but destiny controls you then things get easier to accept. 

Yes I can say things like: Money can be replaced by a recourse base society where we will work together to make things better. Our achievements will be our reward and our will to advance will be our drive.

So, if the money gods wish me to have a tattoo of a serial code on my face than I will get that tattoo and be done with it. In the end what does it matter? If my destiny holds greater things then my path will lead to greater things.

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## Frankincense

@ Dave : "Any form of solid proposal towards a genuinely viable alternative to do the job..."

Unfortunately this river has to run it's course till fulfilled. There will be no "better ways" allowed/permitted until this way has completed it's task at hand. As it's written, so it shall be.

@ tec0
"So, if the money gods wish me to have a tattoo of a serial code on my face than I will get that tattoo and be done with it. In the end what does it matter? If my destiny holds greater things then my path will lead to greater things."

It matters significantly in the end. If you wish to have your spirit last continually into eternity, you would think otherwise. There will be no "greater destiny" to those who accept it and are tormented due to it.

Choose life!
 :Gunsmilie:

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## tec0

> It matters significantly in the end. If you wish to have your spirit last continually into eternity, you would think otherwise. There will be no "greater destiny" to those who accept it and are tormented due to it.
> 
> Choose life!


I am sorry but you donât get it Francois. Money rules, your life is worthless. The system did its job. Criminals donât care who you are, they come they take and the victim ends up with a lot of bad memories a violated body and or death. Now what do you think happened to the human spirit during those last few horrible hours?

Now you can play connect the dots and that yes âsomething really strange is going onâ but it doesnât matter if you know or donât know. It doesnât matter what the truth is... The fact is, everyday somebody gets hurt in the worst possible way. Generations of bloodshed and we are still doing exactly the same thing.

Some call it a test, others call it evil... The truth is, it is human nature... 

Now I am not trying to get you angry Francois. But conspiracy or no conspiracy the world stays the same regardless.

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## Frankincense

@ tec0

tut tut...

"I am sorry but you donât get it Francois. Money rules, your life is worthless"

Firstly...you don't need to apologise, coz you have have it all wrong again anyways...how could I possibly take offence..lol. Just clear your outlook on life and you would be surprised how much less apoligising you will end up doing  :Slap: 

Not a single humans life is worthless. Only those who choose to accept devaluing thiers by foolish choices. The Kingdom of Heaven has many rooms and you could occupy one  :Yes: 

I will never anger over SA Forum topics we discuss. Banking etc is certainly a contributor to much misery in it's current state, and it will increase, as will most natural misery in these times...but I can only urge you to keep your eyes on that which is beautiful, good, truthfull...basically those things that you would want for those closest to you...love......

Don't let "The Darkness" of any time consume you. You are worth more.
 :Oops: 

Member's may consider our tangent slightly  :Offtopic: 


lol...

anyways....the ultimate goal is just to share that fully authenticated banking will end in "no buying or selling without your chip"....and that ALL who read this  have a healthy free choice when it's established....

It's only Doom n Gloom to those who choose such!

Stay Positive...and know your and those you love's life has so much value it cannot even be measured!!!!

 :Chair: 


 :Smile:

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## irneb

> Once you realise that you are not in control of destiny but destiny controls you then things get easier to accept.


I'm not exactly with you on that. It's not destiny controlling you, it's other people.




> Yes I can say things like: Money can be replaced by a recourse base society where we will work together to make things better. Our achievements will be our reward and our will to advance will be our drive.


Sounds a bit like the "true" definition of commune-ism ... the definition given by Karl Marx that is (but not completely see further below). Not by the so-called communists who are actually socialists ... formerly known as feudalists ... previously despots and slave owners: the more thing change, the more they stay the same. The most direct description of socialism is dictatorship: The government owns all, controls all, and no-one outside the government has any say in the matter. This is usually the wool-over-the-eyes word used "Communism" --> a utopia for all, therefore we need a strong government for the people to guide them on the right path. What a crock of BS!

The problem with communism is it won't work. It needs unselfishness, since it defines a way of life where everyone (without any form of government whatsoever) will do everything in their power & capability for the betterment of the commune (the society as a whole). This must be done without expectancy of any form of remuneration. And then each individual will only take from the commune that which they cannot survive without. This doesn't work with human nature which is never without some level of selfishness, the first guy to take more than his fair share or not pulling his weight makes for the system to break down. The rest, seeing that he's now better off and doesn't need to do as much work will start "striking" and / or taking in equal measure. Thus causing less production and more demand until it reaches a scenario equal to famine.

That's one of the only 3 philosophies humans have ever come up with on how to live. The other side is capitalism. This accepts that everyone is in fact selfish and will do whatever they deem best for themselves. Thus you do as little as possible to derive as much as possible benefit. Usually to the detriment of someone else, but then you're selfish for your own & your kin's own - not other strangers are you? It the only philosophy which works as nature does: survival of the "fittest".

The 3rd philosophy, called by its euphemism of socialism (first used by Karl Marx as well), makes for a controlling person / group which literally has total and complete control over everyone else. Whenever you have a government you're that bit closer to being a socialist society. The stronger the government the more socialistic (or rather the more dictatorial).

The only place where communism has even displayed a modicum of possibility is inside something like the Israeli kibutzes, but even there it tended towards socialism as there's usually some form of leader. Pure capitalism is only possible in a state of anarchy (i.e. no government whatsoever). Absolutely all civilizations throughout history formed some mixture of capitalism & socialism, because if there was more freedoms people tended to capitalism instead of communism. And no government could control everything, even in the USSR there was still a black-market (i.e. capitalism).

So to come back to your utopic idea: How to entise people to do something? There's some theories behind methods, but the most common is: coercion (socialism) and enticement (capitalism). It just depends on what you refer to as enticement / coercion, money / imprisonment, status, the knowledge that you (other people's knowledge that is) have done this / or being declared someone who's not a team player, etc. Your idea is nothing new, it's the age-old concept, you just focus on a different form of "currency".

A further idea is religious doctrine & fanaticism.

@Francios: I'm not an atheist, but I'm also not one to hold with any form of religion-ism. I've looked at as many as I could find info about after becoming extremely fed up with Christianity's contradictions (and thus faults). I've come to realize that all are forms of worship devised by humans, and I cannot believe that any human is divine, without error or ulterior motive. Thus I don't think any religion could be shown to be a "true" religion.

While most religions have "lovely" ideas of community spirit and helping others, they all have only one single thing in common: They're all simply another way of control over the society. The very first form of religion (Shamanism) had a purpose of binding a tribe under a leader and his shaman, usually by the shaman telling stories of how people who don't do as they're told end with horrible deaths. So it's a form of fear mongery in order to entice people to accept a dictator.

And all religions since have either been established for this purpose, or bastardized into this purpose. Christianity is actually a very extreme example of such, just think about the roman catholic church being the single most influential organization throughout the dark- & middle ages (1500+ years). Not to mention the richest! The problem is not religion in itself (whatever form you're referring to) but rather what people do with it.

From the other side of religion (the worshipers instead of the controllers) it also doesn't get away from the basic human nature of selfishness. "What?" you say "What about all those saintly people doing all those good deeds?" Well, them being religious and thus believing in a recompense in the after-life, obviously have different priorities: i.e. instead of yearning for more money they yearn to be "closer to *g*od" - seen as some form of status / better after-life. So even mother Teresa was not immune to her own selfishness.

And so we come to the farce which is called democracy ... which is intended to use socialism to iron out the problems caused by capitalism, but put a choke-chain on the dictator(s) to stop socialism's excesses. This thread proves that it's a sham and there's still slave-like ownership of the society by a small group of elite, even in this so-called democracy.

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AndyD (27-Jul-10), BusFact (28-Jul-10), Dave A (27-Jul-10), flaker (28-Jul-10)

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## Frankincense

" This thread proves that it's a sham and there's still slave-like ownership of the society by a small group of elite, even in this so-called democracy."

Approved √√√

It is good we are all free to express ourselves here freely...the worst is yet to come...but the wise among us shall dwell in safety  :Clap: 

Today I leave you with words of Emperor RasTafari declared decades ago: 

"Democracy, republics: What do these words signify? What have they changed in the world? Have men become better, more loyal, kinder? Are the people happier? All goes on as before, as always. Illusions, illusions. Besides, one should consider the interest of a nation before subverting it with words. Democracy is necessary in some cases and We believe some African peoples might adopt it. But in other cases it is harmful, a mistake."


 :Gunsmilie:

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## Dave A

> Unfortunately this river has to run it's course till fulfilled. There will be no "better ways" allowed/permitted until this way has completed it's task at hand. As it's written, so it shall be.


That sort of fatalist thinking isn't going to change the world. In fact if all of mankind thought that way, the earth would still be the centre of the universe and everything else would revolve around it.

It's a cop-out. C'mon - stretch your thinking.

Here's the mission:

Manage the number of tokens in circulation used to facilitate trade as a representation of relative value.Put a system in place that allows people who have more of these tokens than they need at the moment to fund people who could put those tokens to good use.In doing so you have to remember a golden rule - what gets rewarded gets done.

ps. Exceptional post, Irneb  :Thumbup:

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## irneb

Thanks Dave. BTW, a friend just pointed me at this: http://www.informationisbeautiful.ne...r-o-gram-2009/

It puts some perspective on just how much "money" is used simply to prevent banks and the like from not being able to pay their directors these fat bonuses.

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## wynn

A 'Conservative' Capitalist Government leaning towards Socialism is probably the answer.

Enough Socialism as needed to protect the weak not 'Bullshit Socialism' as in the old USSR and China where the 'Aparatchick' were the 'Oligarchs' who took everything for themselves and everybody else was too scared to complain, the ordinary people got their own back by doing the least they could to produce the capital needed, which eventually led to the downfall of the System.

Enough Capitalism to allow those who toil to be rewarded adequately. Not 'Rampant Capitalism' as in the USA where financiers were raping the savings of the Banking Institutions and calling it 'Performance Bonuses'!!

*'Conservative'* as in not interfering too much in the daily running of the Country but enough to maintain the 'status quo' not as in 'Old Fuddy Duddy' too scared to move forward or 'Nanny State'.
Just make sure the Services (Security, Education, Infrustructure, Health & Welfare) are adequate.

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## Frankincense

@ Wynn,

No different form of government will solve the issues raised in this thread. You grabbing at straws in desperation...lol

@ Dave - "That sort of fatalist thinking isn't going to change the world." 

Who are you to think you can change the world?  :Slap: 

You, nor anyone on this forum can change the prophecies of the Bible. All shall be caused to receive a mark for transactions...deal with it!

Suggesting some "new forms of trade agreements and token control"???.....lmao...you're so funny...rather take care of your spiritual needs and those of your families while you have be granted time  :Yes: 

Vain imaginations I tell you.... :No: 

@irneb and all those who  love your words....unless you accept the divinity of Jesus Christ....you will wallow in your confusion and denialism.

"I'm not an atheist, but I'm also not one to hold with any form of religion-ism." ..you have so much to learn...that you confess not that God created you and He alone is worthy of praise! what is religion-ism?....have you never heard of Christ and normal religion, pure and undefiled where you get together with brothers and sisters and pray and live a good life and accept all have faults and fall short of His Glory and live by Grace alone?? Shame...depravity abounds.

"The very first form of religion (Shamanism)" ...absolute internet garbbage!!!

Let's put you through class 101:

The word "Religion" has it's root in the Greek word "Religio" meaning "Bond"....so the first spiritual bond existed between Adam and Jahovah. Why do you churn out such trash, and worse, why would so many applaud it?....lol

I won't wrestle with a fool, less I stoop to his level.

Everybody here will only be as free to do as they are told, unless they approach The Light...Jesus Christ.

Go ahead.....stone me....thank God this is just a web page and these words bear testimony against all who will claim not to have heard the Good News. Make no mistake, Good news to the wicked is really BAD if they refuse to comply....
 :Clap:

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## AndyD

Good grief, this thread caught me off guard. I just had to quickly change my background music to Handel's Messiah, the Leonard Cohen album I selected whilst reading some topics in the chat forum just wasn't cutting it.

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Frankincense (28-Aug-10)

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## tec0

I think there are just too many systems creating too many problems. Everybody needs 3 to 5 things to survive. 1> we need food, 2> we need water, 3> we need shelter 4> we need medical assistance. 5> we need protection. Base on these 3 to 5 needs, it is reasonable to assume that people will work towards those goals.

But now you get those that want to think for others. Today we have everybody thinking for everybody else. You say we have choice? Choice in cosmetics perhaps, but when it comes to basic survival you have no choice. So survival comes down to function. As humans we can grow food relatively easily. As humans we can purify water even seawater. 

The question now is, what level of existence are you as a human willing to accept? Will the above basics be enough? The truth is in the days of the king and country education was limited to the point where only a  few could rule simply because they were educated.

Today we can educate people by the millions. We have the technology to do so. Thus why do we need leaders or democratic or communism systems? The fact is we donât... 

What we do need is food, clean water, shelter, health and security. Now what about innovation? The fact is innovation can still exist, people can still work get paid and save up for the things they want. But what we donât need is a bunch of supper wealthy people eating 98% of everything the world provides. If there is no more supper powerful supper wealthy people then more wealth can be given to the world. 

Why is this not possible, because we think everything is a conspiracy! We think that there are supper powerful rich people around. The truth is these supper powerful elite are still just people... and that is all they are... there is nothing godly about them. 

So just say No... If enough people say No and take back the ability to take care of themselves. Then there are no more supper powerful elite individuals. 

But because of simple *inconvenience* people shy away from this challenge to say NO....

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irneb (02-Aug-10)

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## Dave A

> Who are you to think you can change the world?


Francois, in my own little way, I already have. So have lots of other ordinary people who have found themselves in extraordinary circumstance. There have been times in my life when I've had to pinch myself to make sure I wasn't dreaming.

I am not widely famous and I don't seek glory. So let me tap into accomplishments widely known to make a point -

If a young boy told Francois Pienaar that he wanted to be captain of the Springboks and lift the Webb Ellis Trophy one day, what would Francois say? 
This can't be done - find another dream?

What would most other people say to that young boy?

If a young child told Nelson Mandela that they wanted to be President of South Africa one day, what would he say?

Pick any famous person who has achieved much and retained a reasonable dose of humility - and ask them "Can I do what you did?"

They know - if you really want to you can. After all they have done it themselves as much by accident than by design, and they probably pinch themselves regularly too.

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irneb (30-Jul-10)

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## irneb

> Let's put you through class 101:
> 
> The word "Religion" has it's root in the Greek word "Religio" meaning "Bond"....so the first spiritual bond existed between Adam and Jahovah. Why do you churn out such trash, and worse, why would so many applaud it?....lol
> 
> I won't wrestle with a fool, less I stoop to his level.


We'll have to agree to disagree on this. We both don't want to stoop to any level to pick up those stones now do we?

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## irneb

> @irneb and all those who  love your words....unless you accept the divinity of Jesus Christ....you will wallow in your confusion and denialism.
> ...
> 
> Go ahead.....stone me....thank God this is just a web page and these words bear testimony against all who will claim not to have heard the Good News. Make no mistake, Good news to the wicked is really BAD if they refuse to comply....


Actually your comments have been festering in me over the weekend. This is exactly why I don't like any religion-ism: Your good book is written and rewritten by humans (not by god). The largest rewrite, cum addition, cum omission was during Constantine's reign - a self confessed PAGAN only being forcibly baptized on his deathbed! Now how could god have had any say about what that man placed into the christian bible?

My whole point about religion is that it's only of the most useful tools for the oppressor: both birds incentive & coercion are caught with the same stone! And better, that stone is a future stone (which cannot be proven / dis-proven). And best of all, all (good incentives, and bad coercion) is placed at some 3rd party's (god) feet. Someone who may or may not exist, but either way cannot be argued against.

Thus the controllers of the religion will do as they please, since they have absolutely no responsibility: It's always "God's will", it's never "Sorry I made a mistake, burning that woman at the stake was not right!"

What you fail to realize is that you may already be duped into something beyond what the actual god intended. Nothing any human put into that book (or any other) can be taken at face value. That may exactly be what they want you to believe. And because you believe such fatalistic doctrine, you don't even contemplate that you may be able to help change the future. Or in other words: "Don't make waves for us, everything will happen as we've planned it." But then: "Oh, but don't do nothing. You can't expect us to do everything for you!"

But here's an example of just how faulty that book is: On the one hand you are told there's predestination and everyone is already been chosen or not for the paradise hereafter. But the same book tells you that God only helps those who help themselves. WTF? So be fatalist, but also work towards a better future?




> Good grief, this thread caught me off guard. I just had to quickly change my background music to Handel's Messiah, the Leonard Cohen album I selected whilst reading some topics in the chat forum just wasn't cutting it.


It scares me stiff as well!




> Today we can educate people by the millions. We have the technology to do so. Thus why do we need leaders or democratic or communism systems? The fact is we don’t...


Exactly! We don't need any government, unless we cannot think of our own future and the consequences of our actions. The problem is the selfishness clouds our vision, how many "great" and "wonderful" leaders have become oppressive, domineering, paranoid, power hungry, etc. after coming to power? Even if they were "true" in their intensions, the power always changed them.

I'd love to see a civilization without a government flourish, but I fear human nature is simply to overwhelming and it will cause this anarchy to become its negative connotation.

That's the reason behind me not becoming an atheist. The only way I can see the horde of human stupidity kept from its own self-destruction is if some divine intervening entity rules over us all. But none of our religions believe in an active god (well not those in practice these days). They all have a god set apart from humanity, always working through intermediaries (who are always humans). And then if you look at the more "active" gods like those of the Greeks, then those gods seem extremely human in nature - same selfish, proud, domineering, etc. bad aspects of the human nature shows through. And then when you start looking at the current 5 major religions you realize, nothing much has changed from such similar beginnings.

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BusFact (03-Aug-10), wynn (02-Aug-10)

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## Dave A

Ordinarily I try not to meddle with people's religious predisposition (generally a total waste of time) - Normally my view is "whatever works for you." But perhaps this point needs to be made: 



> The largest rewrite, cum addition, cum omission was during Constantine's reign - a self confessed PAGAN only being forcibly baptized on his deathbed! Now how could god have had any say about what that man placed into the christian bible?


Not so fast  :Batman:  As I recall, that is pretty much the point of departure for one particular branch of christianity around today, and a number that died in what followed Constantine.



> That's the reason behind me not becoming an atheist. The only way I can see the horde of human stupidity kept from its own self-destruction is if some divine intervening entity rules over us all.


On the flip side, some people might not be so callous with their lives if they knew "this is it - as good as it gets."

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tec0 (03-Aug-10)

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## wynn

Anne Rice has quit Christianity see http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-a...=hp:mainpromo7

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## tec0

That is the point, what if this really is the only chance we get to be able to think and do? What if there is no afterlife? See I honestly think this is it; everyday is effectively Armageddon for someone. When life is lost, there is no replacing it. That much I know is true. 

As for an afterlife, anything is possible but to some degree improbability must be factored in. Now if this is your only life would you really want to fight wars and work as a slave? What is the point of life if you cannot enjoy it? 

See all the bad things in the world exist because bad people want to oppress and hurt others to get what they want. Now intelligence has given humanity the ability to say no. I donât feel like working for 40 years of my life just so that I can go and rot on my old day in some retirement home. 

I would rather be satisfied having little and enjoy life as our only gift, because at any point our bodies can and will fail âwithout the help of a bulletâ and we will lose it all. So there is no point it screaming conspiracy,  these wealthy powerful people can only control you and your life for as long as you let them. 

Fact is simplicity is natureâs way, as complicated as our bodies might be, it is still the product of simplicity. So it comes down to what we do need and that is to live and enjoy life. Because what we donât need is more death...

When people finally realise that it doesnât matter in what you believe, the simple truth is, life is temporary...

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## Frankincense

"life is temporary..."

Only Physical life is temporary....forget ye the spirit shall live forever if found in righteousness?
 :EEK!:

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## msmoorad

these are 2 short pieces from henrymakow.com . its a very good site- nice to visit3-4 times weekly as they always update their articles:

by Anthony Migchels
(excerpt by henrymakow.com)
anthony.migchels@gelre-handelsnetwerken.nl
Let's say you want to buy a house and go the bank and get a loan. Say 200k. The simple truth is, after thirty years you will have payed back 600k. 200k for the principal and 400k (!!) in interest.

Now this might be ok, or at least somewhat understandable, if you were borrowing this money from somebody else, who has been saving it. But as we know, this is not the case. The money is produced the moment the loan is granted by the bank. In a computer program. By pressing a few buttons. 
So basically you pay 400k interest for pressing a button. Granted, the bank needs to manage the loan during the time it is being repaid. But the cost for this is still only a fraction of the income they get through the interest.

Now, we could stop here, because it is clear that the bank is ripping us off, also in legal terms, although they make the laws themselves, because there is no realistic service being delivered for the money.

But there is so much more, we must continue.

When the bank creates some money by giving you a loan, it takes the money out of circulation when you repay. Repaying debts means a diminishing money supply. The banks only provide the principal, in our previous example 200k. But after thirty years, 600k has been repaid and only 200k was created. So how can this be? How can 600k be repaid by 200k?

It can't. Somebody else needs to get into debt to create sufficient liquidity to pay the 400k interest. And the borrower of the original loan must start competing for this liquidity with everybody else to obtain that, intrinsically scarce, cash.

This means that because of the combination of debt and interest, the money supply must grow forever. But we know that a growing money supply is the definition of inflation and that inflation is closely linked to rising prices. 


So inflation is inherent in the system. This sounds strange, because Central Banks raise interest rates to lower inflation, reasoning less credit will be issued because of rising prices for it. But the higher the interest rates go, the more money must be created to pay for this interest.

Just one of the perverse side effects of interest in the current wealth transfer system we call 'finance'.


So what of it you think. I was raised to be conservative in these matters and one should simply not get into debt, so you won't pay interest.


Wrong. Not only because if nobody went into debt, there would be no money, but because companies go into debt to finance their production. They pay interest (capital costs) over these loans. And like any cost this must be calculated into the prices they ask for their goods and services.

And what percentage of prices can be related to interest? It depends on the kind of business, particularly how capital intensive it is. Going from 12% for garbage collection to 77% for renting a house. All in all about 40% of prices can be traced back to costs for capital. These figures have been corroborated by an independent study done by Erasmus University, Rotterdam, the Netherlands under the supervision of STRO, a leading monetary think tank in the Netherlands.

So, you lose 40% (!!!!) of your disposable income to interest through prices.

Interest is being paid by people borrowing money and received by people having loads of it. So it is per definition a wealth transfer from poor to rich.

It transpires, that about 80% of the poorest people pay more interest than they receive to the richest 10%. The next richest 10% pay as much as they receive. This means the vast majority is losing a substantial part of their money to interest. The richest own the banks or have a lot of money there.

We must keep in mind that this is totally for nothing, since most of the money is printed at the time it is loaned out.

How much money are we talking about? I have only figures for Germany, but reason suggests it is basically the same everywhere.

In Germany the poorest 80% pay 1 billion Euros in interest to the richest 10% PER DAY. Yes, that's right, one billion euros per day. That is a grand total of 365 billion euro's per year. That is one seventh of German GDP and extrapolating this to America, the poorest 80% must be paying at least a trillion a year.

It conclusively explains the old adage that the rich get richer and the poor get poorer.

This is the hidden tax that nobody is talking about.

This is the yoke that we carry.

This is the worst kind of slavery, because it is slavery without even realizing it.

This is interest and let it never be forgotten.

This is our mortal enemy and let us never take our eyes of it again, until it is thrown into the fire of hell, together with the usurers enslaving us with it.

--Complete article can be found here:

"On Interest" by Anthony Migchels 

Related:

A History of Usury

(While in Toronto recently, I met Sydney White who told me about Prof. John Hotson who was a leading Canadian exponent of banking reform. He died under suspicious circumstances during an operation in 1996. This is an excerpt from an article entitled "Understanding Money" which he wrote shortly before his murder. Needless to say, he has no Wikipedia entry.)


by John H. Hotson
(EXCERPT BY HENRYMAKOW.COM) 

The financial system the world has evolved on the Bank of England model is not sustainable. It creates nearly all money as debt. Such money only exists as long as someone is willing and able to pay interest on it. It disappears, wholly or partially, in recurring financial crises. Such a system requires that new debt must be created faster than principal and interest payments fall due on old debt.

A sustainable financial system would enable the real economy to be maintained decade after decade and century after century at its full employment potential without recurring inflation and recession. By this standard, a financial system that creates money only through the creation of debt is inherently unsustainable.

When a bank makes a loan, the principal amount of the loan is added to the borrower's bank balance. The borrower, however, has promised to repay the loan plus interest even though the loan has created only the amount of money required to repay the principal-but not the amount of the interest. 


Therefore unless indebtedness continually grows it is impossible for all loans to be repaid as they come due. Furthermore, during the life of a loan some of the money will be saved and re-lent by individual bond purchasers, by savings banks, insurance companies etc. These loans do not create new money, but they do create debt.

While we use only one mechanism - bank loans - to create money, we use several mechanisms to create debt, thus making it inevitable that debt will grow faster than the money with which to pay it. Recurring cycles of inflation, recession, and depression are a nearly inevitable consequence.

If, in the attempt to arrest the price inflation resulting from an excessive rate of debt formation, the monetary authorities raise the rate of interest, the result is likely to be a financial panic. This in turn may result in a sharp cutback in borrowing. 


Monetary authorities respond to bail out the system by increasing bank reserves. Governments may also respond by increasing the public debt- risking both inflation and growing government deficits. 

FOUR COMMON SENSE RULES:

Governments got into this mess by violating four common sense rules regarding their fiscal and monetary policies. These rules are:

1. No sovereign government should ever, under any circumstances, give over democratic control of its money supply to bankers.

2. No sovereign government should ever, under any circumstances, borrow any money from any private bank. 

3. No national, provincial, or local government should borrow foreign money to increase purchases abroad when there is excessive domestic unemployment.

4. Governments, like businesses, should distinguish between "capital" and "current" expenditures, and when it is prudent to do so, finance capital improvements with money the government has created for itself.

A few words about the first two of these rules...

1. There is persistent pressure from central bankers and academic economists to free central banks from the obligation to consider the effects of their actions upon employment and output levels so that they can concentrate on price stability. 


This is a very bad idea indeed. Dominated by bankers and economists, central banks are entirely too prone to give exclusive attention to creditor interests to the exclusion of worker interests. Amending central bank charters to give them independence from democratic oversight, or to set up "price stability" as their only goal would complete their subjection to banker interests. Canada's own Mackenzie King said it all, "Without Government creation of money, talk of sovereignty and democracy is futile."

2. Anyone who understands that banks create the money they lend can see that it makes no sense for a sovereign government, which can create money at near zero cost, to borrow money at high cost from a private bank. 

The fact that most governments do borrow from private banks is one of the greatest errors of our times. If a government needs money created to pay for public spending it should create the money itself through its own bank; or spend the money debt and interest free as the United States did during the Revolution and again during the Civil War. If a government does not wish to "monetize" its deficits during periods of unusual need such as wartime, it should either make up the deficit with higher taxes or borrow only from the non-bank public-which cannot create the money it lends to the government....

When the Bank of Canada encourages the Canadian government, provinces, and municipalities to borrow in New York and Tokyo, it is a betrayal of Canada. Where should they borrow when new money is needed for government spending? They should borrow at the government owned Bank of Canada, paying near zero interest rates-just sufficient to cover the Bank's running expenses.

Related: 420 Banks "Demand" World Currency 







John H. Hotson was professor emeritus of economics University of Waterloo and executive director of the Committee on Monetary and Economic Reform (COMER), a Canadian based network of economists working for economic and monetary reform. This article is based on a series he published in the October 1994, November 1994, and January 1995 issues of Economic Reform, the COMER newsletter, Comer Publications, 3284 Yonge St., Suite 500, Toronto, Ontario, M4N 3M7, fax (416) 486-4674. He gave the PCDForum permission to use this material only five days before his untimely death on January 21, 1996 following heart surgery.

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## irneb

This is the leverage method of money creation. Although it's extremely covert, it's also the most pervasive. We all think of money as the cash paper (and coins) made by the various institutions allowed to (be they government as you'd expect, or more likely privately owned reserve banks, etc.). That is simply the tip of the money iceberg, it's called M0: there's 3 more "overall" definitions of money, M1 M2 & M3 ... each defining more broadly what is seen as money.

These generally explain in better terms just how much monetary inflation (note not price inflation) is in existence. It's gotten so bad recently that the US has (a few years ago) stopped recording M3, otherwise the figures would be just stupid - or more so than it is now.

There's even more problems than just the leverage. What about fractional reserves? This mean the banks may lend out more money than they already have (as given to them, or rather lent them by savers). I.e. the bank only has 20k (from deposits), but lends 200k to you, who then pays back 600k - now do you get just how pervasive (not to mention destructive) banks are? These are the main causes of monetary inflation. The actual printed notes are only a fraction of this pervasive influence.

People these days don't seem to realize that money is also governed by the same Demand-Supply laws of other goods & services. I.e. the more money there is means its value (compared to other stuff) tends to diminish. That is how monetary inflation generates (over time) price inflation. Governments generally love inflation (both money & price). With monetary inflation it's as if they're obtaining a free loan. With price inflation their tax revenues climb accordingly. There's probably more reasons, but these are the 2 foremost in my mind at the moment. Therefore the reserve bank will at best call lip-service to "curb" inflation, they actually want inflation as it benefits them. Apart from the obvious disorientation caused by inflation - price wise - there's a few other problems.

The 1st problem with inflation is - it's like deferred tax - the gov (and the banks) make *profit* now, while you pay for it later (interest adjusted of course). So you pay more later than they get now - i.e. they get even more in due course.

The 2nd problem with inflation is it causes an over abundance of liquidity. This in turn tends to produce / consume "spurious" goods and services, i.e. goods & services which have little to no benefit for the economy as a whole. It also tends to drive out more productive goods & services, an example is how the US has changed from a mainly industrial-production country to a nearly completely services oriented (especially financial & administrative) country. This in turn causes skilled labour to become less "valued" and therefore less supplied (in favour of e.g. administrative labour), which means there are less people to actually do the productive work while there's more and more people available to do the already over supplied administrative work. This is the constant refrain from westernised countries: "Skilled labour is in short supply."

The 3rd problem is that money loses two of its functions: i.e. a store an measure of value. The loss of the store of value is what we generally feel, by seeing how it becomes more and more expensive to live. The loss of measurement causes imbalances in things like stock profitability, e.g. it may "seem" to be a good idea to invest in the stock market - but only if you don't adjust the possible gains backward to the prevailing inflation.

The 4th is the rearrangement (as shown in your post) of wealth from the poor (but even more so from the middle class) to the rich.

The 5th is that it's a self sustaining - logarithmic phenomenon. The more inflation there is at present, the more is needed to just keep the status-quo. Otherwise fears of "deflation" spring up as these spurious goods and services start becoming less demanded. That's why we now see levels of "Quantitative Easing" measured in trillions - a few decades ago a billion was nearly unheard of, now it's just small change.

The 5th is what causes inflation to break the dam - i.e. the loss of money's remaining function: a tool of trade. When it becomes so exasperatingly stupid, people loose confidence in money itself. Which in turn causes even greater price-inflation, since the demand for money drops drastically as their confidence drops. This is how *hyper*-inflation starts. Generally it is something which destroys the money in total, and causes anarchical economies (even reverting to barter systems) until something else is found in its place. If it only happens in one country you usually find people reverting to neighbouring (unaffected) currencies. What'll happen if the global currencies all go the same route? And what if this happens during a depression (i.e. lack of investment and grown sustained for the long term)? If hyper-inflation happens during or directly after a boom, it generally takes just a couple of years to re-orient itself (e.g. Wiemar Germany 1920-22). If the economy & prevailing geopolitical atmosphere is not strong at the time it occurs, it takes a "bit" longer (e.g. Zim). If the economy is in nose-dive mode ....  :EEK!:

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## wynn

See the two latest 'Noseweeks' to see what the reservebank is hiding,
apparently hundreds of billions of cash and gold in foreign countries going back to the old Nat government and the ANC, and it belongs to the fiscus, they are trying to steal it for themselves.

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## Dave A

OK - so which is better for the guy in debt - inflation or deflation?

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## tec0

> OK - so which is better for the guy in debt - inflation or deflation?


What about a stable economy? Oh... oops that doesnât exist anymore, but one thing is clear as day, inflation and the massif job losses that we had, NOT a good mix... 

Simple truth we cannot afford to live in our own country anymore...  :Confused:

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## AndyD

Deflation scares the living hell out of most economists.

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## Dave A

Pretty interested in ms's opinion on that one  :Wink: 

Here's another question - if inflation causes an excess in money supply, what causes inflation?

If you confuse cause and effect, it's little wonder you start arriving at the wrong conclusions.

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## irneb

> Here's another question - if inflation causes an excess in money supply, what causes inflation?


Shouldn't that be the other way round? Or is that what you meant by the "confusion" phrase?

An excess in money supply (i.e. too much printed, or too much generated through interest and other measures) causes a *monetary* inflation (i.e. too much cash liquidity), which over time causes a *price* inflation (i.e. the value of money becomes perceived to be less compared to physical goods and services).

So first you get extra money generated --->> then it is called Monetary Inflation --->> this in turn creates Price Inflation (it could be a lag time of 1 year to a couple of decades before this happens in the same proportion though).

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## irneb

> OK - so which is better for the guy in debt - inflation or deflation?


Definitely inflation (if there's nothing else happening). Inflation means he's paying less value, while deflation would mean he'd be paying more value from his pocket.

The converse is also true, the lender would want deflation. Note the banks aren't the lenders, they simply take the deposits borrowed by them and then re-lend it out.

So if there's a deflation: advise keep all your cash under your bed, you'll get more value appreciation that way. If there's inflation, spend it all as fast as possible, buying up assets which would then keep their value while appreciating in comparison to the depreciating cash.

That's if there's nothing else happening, like you losing your job, getting a salary cut, the bank repossessing the house (because they simply want the cash NOW!!), the governement increasing the capital gains tax so you lose the bit of value gained by keeping it in assets rather than cash, etc.

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## wynn

Inflation happens when too much money chases too few goods.
Deflation happens when there are more goods than cash.

If the Gubbemunt print more paper money it just increases inflation by making more money chase fewer goods.

Then we get into the whole exchange rate thing??? :Frown:

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## irneb

And just as an example that there should be no fear of deflation at all: http://www.usdebtclock.org/index.html

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## msmoorad

hello all
just another thing i always think about;
if anyone invests in anything, they expect more than what they initially invested. if i invested R1000 in some fund/scheme etc, i wont be expecting R1000 in return but quite a bit more.
now, ever day on the news we hear aboput the importance of attracting foreign investment and that how so & so company is investing so much money in your country...
we all are told how much these people are putting in but how come nobody says anythng about how much they are taking out of the country? what retuns they receive.
thats why i dont really believe that foreign investment is a good thing.- im no economist but this is what i sincerely believe.
with the Zionist banker manufactured global economic crisis, South Africa was relatively unscathed- well thats what the media says- it made no difference to me.
i also believe that we were not so affected because we dont have so much of a link with Europe & N. America as these 2 continents have between themselves. 
not to be too tied in and be too deeply invested in the economies of the rest of the world is a good thing and too much foreign investment in SA is a bad thing.
maybe im wrong- if so, please correct me but dont  use big, complicated words and phrases.
the game is rigged and if you play by the rules, the only one who is guaranteed a win are the owners of the game- Zionist bankers & industrialists.
call me anti semite, paranoid, whatever.

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Frankincense (03-Nov-10)

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## Dave A

Just to remind you -



> The 2nd problem with inflation is it causes an over abundance of liquidity.


I suggest the balance of that section is a bit iffy too - if you step back, you seem to lose faith that the supply/demand relationship is what sets prices and moves market directions. I'd also question your discounting of the value-add that service industries provide.

Ms - somewhere in that lot you posted, (or it might have been irneb) a very important point was made:

Just as money is lent for a return, that's the only reason you should be borrowing it too - to apply against something that is going to produce a bigger return than interest on the loan.

For example, when an individual uses credit to buy a TV, what is the financial return on that investment?

Maybe that depends on what TV programs you're watching, but let's be honest, most people aren't buying TVs to learn how to make money.

Same thing applies to foreign investment - just as you suggest, it's a bad thing if it isn't producing a bigger return for the country than it's going to cost in the long run.

But if we don't do it right, if we don't achieve the return, who's fault is that?

Our own, surely.

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## msmoorad

my point is that we are giving foreigners a foothold in our country- i know with De Beers, the Oppenheimers etc the enemy has already been here for a long time but more foreign investment makes us more vunerable.
our economy is tied in with theirs.
they can use it to commit economic blackmail-"if we fall, you also fall, so youd better watch out"
that sort of thing.
what natural resources & mineral wealth does Europe have compared to Africa-nothing!
we hold the aces but they control the game.  you wealthy white guys(by my modest standards) want to continue playing the game as it is may be cos its in your favour- you dont want to upset the applecart but what if the current system is not the best?what if its actually engineered to benefit only a few? and is not in the best interests of the vast majority of people.
im not advocating communism- all must be equal.


im at a loss for words now... i know what i want to say (i think so) but i dont know how to word it correctly..
watch this space!

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## Frankincense

..I don't have time to play around what is this,
must be a circus in town,
lets shut this shit down,
..can I have a witness
[Eminerm]

@ MS...

....as it's written MS....all free & bond, rich and poor....Rev 13...the writing automatically implies that this "foreign investment/harvesting of the earth through financial control and manipulation" is meant to become pervasive to fulfil it's purpose till it is accomplished  :Zzzzz: ...and agreed, local little humble people in any "backward" geographical location could probably trade more fiarly and find no reason to inflate or deflate :Scooter:  ...using fair scales of trade...stability of natural order :Wave: ...but thats a heavenly concept, for a later time in a specific place for a specific people...

For now this holds: :Devil2:  "my point is that we are giving foreigners a foothold in our country"...yes, the people will demand it...by consent and finally conquest due to media manipulation, lack of profit transparency and the fact that Satan is in control for now.

"you ..... want to continue playing the game ....cos its in your favour"  :Slap: 

Naturally and this goes for all humans who wish to remain within the system using transactional instruments of payments and submitting to authentication via numbers....many humans now want the cash and no longer give a rats ass how it's obtained....filling your car with petrol may imply you are killing innocent asians in Iraq, but humans dont like to see it that way..."who cares how the oil is obtained for my ride, I'm a Christian/Muslim, I'm not doing that"....whatever-  just play COD4/5 or Medal of Honour Black Ops...all the youth do is kill dudes shouting "Salaams" to eachother...it's this life education nje!

"You dont want to upset the applecart but what if the current system is not the best?what if its actually engineered to benefit only a few?"

Duh!!!....the system sux Dude..it's the k6il6le6r...and NO ONE, even the poor "rich whites guys" with thier families can do a damn thing...infact many will advocate current establishments and trade policies and spend hours reading and typing absolute crap about what causes this and that and what's best for us blah blah...meantime....

On a good note all sing

"Everybodies Going to the party to have a good time, dancing in the desert blowing up the sunshine"...[System of a Down - Bring Your Own Bomb (BYOB)]

YouTube        - System Of A Down - B.Y.O.B. (HD)

Its happening....wake up Humanity...the time is coming.

You are free to do as we tell you!
 :Gunsmilie:

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## msmoorad

heres another good article about the Reserve bank- i know its about the US Federal Reserve but ours is run the same way- the same principles apply.

http://www.cabaltimes.com/2011/01/08...rument-of-war/

i know its quite long, but its an interesting read.

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Dave A (12-Jan-11), Frankincense (12-Jan-11)

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## Dave A

Great link - but quite a long read.



> Maybury regards these laws with the same certainty as scientific principles, a concept he refers to as juris naturalis.


I agree totally, and it extends way beyond just those two laws.

What I don't get then is the failure to explain the need for ursury. He fobs it off as an (invalidly) assumed need, but there is a critical human relationship dynamic underpinning that need in the mechanism - incentive to offer. Without it, you would inevitably break the law of encroachment on another's property.

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## msmoorad

i came across a very interesting movie called defamation- its made by an Israeli jew.
the complete movie is on YouTube.
just go to Youtube & type in: Defamation the movie

its about 1h30 mins & approx 450MB- for those who want to download it.
heres the link : 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=utVkVQnAY64

but just search for it, if the link does not work

-ive posted this on another thread but its just so max amount of people see it.

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## msmoorad

heres another good find
its also a lengthy read but worth it.

February 26, 2011

Jewish banishment and The City of London

Anyone thinking very logically and simply would simply ask one question:

WHY HAVE JEWS BEEN BANISHED FROM SOME MANY DIFFERENT COUNTRIES AND CULTURES OVER CENTURIES? BY PEOPLES WHO HAVE NEVER HAD THE OPPORTUNITY TO CONSPIRE AGAINST THEM BECAUSE OF VAST DISTANCES BETWEEN THE COUNTRIES WHO HAVE BANISHED THEM. YET ALL OF THESE PEOPLES HAVE, AT DIFFERENT TIMES THROUGHOUT HISTORY, FELT IT NECESSARY TO DO JUST THAT. FOR NO REASON? ALL OF THESE CULTURES HAVE JUST HAD SOME RACIAL HATRED OF JEWS? THERES NO LOGIC IN IT. THE ONLY COMMON DENOMINATOR WHICH PERMEATES THROUGHOUT THESE BANISHMENTS IS THAT OF MONEY AND USURY.

Henk Ruyssenaars article on July 10th 2006 drew attention to the book Descent into Slavery by Des Griffin in which the real meaning of the term City of London is explained. The following is an excerpt from that article.

To the majority of people the words Crown and City in reference to London refer to the queen or the capital of England.

This is not the truth. The City is in fact a privately owned Corporation  or Sovereign State  occupying an irregular rectangle of 677 acres and located right in the heart of the 610 square mile Greater London area. The population of The City is listed at just over four thousand, whereas the population of Greater London (32 boroughs) is approximately seven and a half million.

The Crown is a committee of twelve to fourteen men who rule the independent sovereign state known as London or The City. The City is not part of England. It is not subject to the Sovereign. It is not under the rule of the British parliament. Like the Vatican in Rome, it is a separate, independent state.

The City, which is often called the wealthiest square mile on earth, is ruled over by a Lord Mayor. Here are grouped together Britains great financial and commercial institutions: Wealthy banks, dominated by the privately-owned (Rothschild controlled) Bank of England, Lloyds of London, the London Stock Exchange, and the offices of most of the leading international trading concerns. Here, also, is located Fleet Street, the heart and core of the newspaper and publishing worlds.

The Lord Mayor, who is elected for a one year stint, is the monarch in the City. As Aubrey Menen says in London, Time-Life, 1976, p. 16:

The relation of this monarch of the City to the monarch of the realm [Queen] is curious and tells much.
It certainly is and certainly does!



When the Queen of England goes to visit the City she is met by the Lord Mayor at Temple Bar, the symbolic gate of the City. She bows and asks for permission to enter his private, sovereign State. During such State visits
the Lord Mayor in his robes and chain, and his entourage in medieval costume, outshines the royal party, which can dress up no further than service uniforms.

The Lord Mayor leads the queen into his city.

The symbolism is clear. The Lord Mayor is the monarch. The Queen is his subject.




The small clique who rule the City dictate to the British Parliament. It tells them what to do, and when. In theory Britain is ruled by a Prime Minister and a Cabinet of close advisers. These fronts go to great lengths to create the impression that they are running the show but, in reality, they are mere puppets whose strings are pulled by the shadowy characters who dominate behind the scenes. As the former British Prime Minister of England during the late 1800s Benjamin DIsraeli wrote:

So you see the world is governed by very different personages from what is imagined by those who are not behind the scenes
(Coningsby, The Century Co., N.Y., 1907, p. 233).


Rothschild gold bought supplies for the Duke of Wellington
before Waterloo, financed Disraeli's purchase of the Suez Canal
and bankrolled 19th century Imperialism

This fact is further demonstrated by another passage from Menens book:

The Prime Minister, a busy politician, is not expected to understand the mysteries of high finance, while the Chancellor of the Exchequer is only expected to understand them when he introduces the budget. Both are advised by the permanenet officials of the Treasury, and these listen to the City. If they suspect that some policy of the government will back-fire, it is of no use their calling up British ambassadors to ask if it is so; they can find out more quickly from the City. As one ambassador said: Diplomats are nowadays no more than office boys, and slow ones at that. The City will know. They will tell the Treasury and the Treasury will tell the Prime Minister.
Woe betide him if he does not listen. The most striking instance of this happened in recent history. In 1956 the then Prime Minister, Sir Anthony Eden launched a war to regain the Suez Canal. It had scarcely begun when the City let it be known that in a few days he would have no more money to fight it; the Pound would collapse. He stopped the war and was turned out of office by his party. When the Prime Minister rises to address the Lord Mayors banquet, he hopes that the City will put more behind him than the gold plate lavishly displayed on the sideboards.



The British government is the bond slave of the invisible and inaudible force centred in the City. The City calls the tune. The visible and audible leaders are mere puppets who dance to that tune on command. They have no power. They have no authority. In spite of the outward show they are mere pawns in the game being played by the financial elite.



It is important to recognise the fact that two separate empires were operating under the guise of the British Empire. One was the Crown Empire and the other the British Empire.

The colonial possessions that were white were under the sovereign  i.e. under the authority of the British government. Such nations as the Union of South Africa, Australia, New Zealand and Canada were governed under British law. These only represented thirteen percent of the people who made up the inhabitants of the Britsh Empire.

All the other parts of the British Empire  nations like India, Egypt, Bermuda, Malta, Cyprus and colonies in Central Africa, Singapore, Hong Kong and Gibraltar were all Crown Colonies. These were not under British rule. The British parliament had no authority over them.



As the Crown owned the committee known as the British government there was no problem getting the British taxpayer to pay for naval and military forces to maintain the Crowns supremacy in these areas.

The City reaped fantastic profits from its operations conducted under the protection of the British armed forces. This wasnt British commerce and British wealth. The international bankers, prosperous merchants and those members of the aristocracy who were part of the City machine accumulated vast fortunes .

About seventy years ago Vincent Cartwright Vickers stated that :

.financiers in reality took upon themselves, perhaps not the responsibility, but certainly the power of controlling the markets of the world and therefore the numerous relationships between one nation and another, involving international friendship and mistrusts Loans to foreign countries are organised and arranged by the City of London with no thought whatsoever of the nations welfare but solely in order to increase indebtedness upon which the City thrives and grows rich

In Empire of the City E. C. Knuth said:

 This national and mainly international dictatorship of money which plays off one country against another and which, through ownership of a large portion of the press converts the advertisement of its own private opinion into a semblance of general public opinion, cannot for much longer be permitted to render Democratic Government a mere nickname. Today we see through a glass darkly: for there is so much and it would not be in the public interest to divulge.

The battle for power and riches is an ancient one, but any attempt to make sense of the present world situation where the bulk of humanity is being herded like sheep into a corral without some knowledge of history is a difficult if not impossible task.

At present names have been replaced by groups, capitalists, republicans, democrats, terrorists, corporations, NATO, UNO, NAFTA, EMI, ECB, ASEAN. They are names that are spewed out like confetti in an endless list of anonymity.

In spite of modern technology the figures in the background remain blurred. Mention the word Jew or Conspiracy and everyone with few exceptions will turn away. Why? Fear? Of what? What is the magic talisman which makes the mention of these co-religionists a no-go area? Is it because they have infiltrated every aspect of human activity? Is it they who are pulling the strings which are leading the world on its downward slope?

The Jew has been mistrusted since way back. But what is apparent now is that any attempt to offer an answer to the question is clamped down upon. What does that indicate? Above all it indicates that these shadowy figures fear more than anything else the truth.

Professor Jesse H. Holmes, writing in, The American Hebrew, expressed the following similar sentiments:

It can hardly be an accident that antagonism directed against the Jews is to be found pretty much everywhere in the world where Jews and non-Jews are associated. And as Jews are the common element of the situation it would seem probable, on the face of it, that the cause will be found in them rather than in the widely varying groups which feel this antagonism.

In Europe and Russia alone, the Jews have been banished 47 times in the last 1,000 years: Mainz, 1012; France, 1182; Upper Bavaria, 1276; England, 1290; France, 1306; France, 1322; Saxony, 1349; Hungary, 1360; Belgium, 1370; Slovakia, 1380; France, 1394; Austria, 1420; Lyons, 1420; Cologne, 1424; Mainz, 1438; Augsburg, 1438; Upper Bavaria, 1442; Netherlands, 1444; Brandenburg, 1446; Mainz, 1462; Lithuania, 1495; Portugal, 1496; Naples, 1496; Navarre, 1498; Nuremberg, 1498; Brandenburg, 1510; Prussia, 1510; Genoa, 1515; Naples, 1533; Italy, 1540; Naples, 1541; Prague, 1541; Genoa, 1550; Bavaria, 1551; Prague, 1557; Papal States, 1569; Hungary, 1582; Hamburg, 1649; Vienna, 1669; Slovakia, 1744; Mainz, 1483; Warsaw, 1483; Spain, 1492; Italy, 1492; Moravia, 1744; Bohemia, 1744; Moscow, 1891.

(The above is excerpted from The Synagogue of Satan by Andrew Carrington Hitchcock.)
Of what were these people guilty to arouse such a reaction from so many diverse people?
Well, in England, its very interesting:

IT ALL STARTED with The Edict of Expulsion of 1290 AD.

The Jews would have us believe that their expulsion from England by Edward I (reigned 1272-1307) was due to their money lending endeavors. The real reason was due to the Jews crime of blood ritual murders.

The Orthodox Christian historian of the 5th Century, Socrates Scholasticus, in his Ecclesiastical History, 7:16, recounts an incident about Jews killing a Christian child:

 At a place near Antioch in Syria, the Jews, in derision of the Cross and those who put their trust in the Crucified One, seized a Christian boy, and having bound him to a cross they made, began to sneer at him. In a little while becoming so transported with fury, they scourged the child until he died under their hands. 
Here are a few examples which led to the English expulsion of the Jews in 1290 AD:

1144 A.D. Norwich: A twelve year-old boy was crucified and his side pierced at the Jewish Passover. His body was found in a sack hidden in a tree. A converted Jew to Christianity named Theobald of Cambridge informed the authorities that the Jews took blood every year from a Christian child because they thought that only by so doing could they ever return to Palestine. The boy has ever since been known as St. William.

1160 A.D. Gloucester: The body of a child named Harold was found in the river with the wounds of crucifixion.
1255 A.D. Lincoln: A boy named Hugh was tortured and crucified by the Jews. The boys mother found the body in a well on the premises of a Jew named Jopin. 18 Jews were hanged for the crime by King Henry III.

1290 A.D. Oxford: The Patent Roll 18 Of Edward I, 21st June 1290 contains an order for the Gaol delivery of a Jew named Isaac de Pulet for the murder and blood letting of a Christian boy. Only one month after this, King Edward I issued his decree expelling the Jews from England.

(See Sources #1 Below )

JEWISH BANKERS FROM AMSTERDAM led by the Jewish financier and army contractor of Cromwells New Model Army, Fernandez Carvajal and assisted by Portuguese Ambassador De Souza, a Marano (secret Jew), saw an opportunity to exploit in the civil unrest led by Oliver Cromwell in 1643.

A stable Christian society of ancient traditions binding the Monarchy, Church, State, nobles and people into one solemn bond was disrupted by Calvins Protestant uprising. The Jews of Amsterdam exploited this civil unrest and made their move. They contacted Oliver Cromwell in a series of letters:

Cromwell To Ebenezer Pratt of the Mulheim Synagogue in Amsterdam,
16th June 1647:

 In return for financial support will advocate admission of Jews to England: This however impossible while Charles living. Charles cannot be executed without trial, adequate grounds for which do not at present exist. Therefore advise that Charles be assassinated, but will have nothing to do with arrangements for procuring an assassin, though willing to help in his escape. 
To Oliver Cromwell From Ebenezer Pratt, 12th July 1647:

 Will grant financial aid as soon as Charles removed and Jews admitted. Assassination too dangerous. Charles shall be given opportunity to escape: His recapture will make trial and execution possible. The support will be liberal, but useless to discuss terms until trial commences. 

Cromwell had carried out the orders of the Jewish financiers and beheaded, (yes, Cromwell and his Jewish sponsors must face Christ!), King Charles I on January 30 1649.
Beginning in 1655, Cromwell, through his alliance with the Jewish bankers of Amsterdam and specifically with Manasseh Ben Israel and his brother-in-law, David Abravanel Dormido, initiated the resettlement of the Jews in England.

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## msmoorad

theres more
i had to break it into 2 parts cos apparently im not allowed to post more than 20000 words(or something like that)
continuation:


JEWS GET THEIR CENTRAL BANK OF ENGLAND

WILLIAM STADHOLDER, a Dutch army careerist, was a handsome chap with money problems. The Jews saw another opportunity and through their influence arranged for William’s elevation to Captain General of the Dutch Forces. The next step up the ladder for William was his elevation by the Jews to the aristocratic title of William, Prince of Orange.

The Jews then arranged a meeting between William and Mary, the eldest daughter of the Duke of York. The Duke was only one place removed from becoming King of England. In 1677 Princess Mary of England married William Prince of Orange.

To place William upon the throne of England it was necessary to get rid of both Charles II and the Duke of York who was slated to become James II of the Stuarts. It is important to note that none of the Stuarts would grant charter for an English national bank. That is why murder, civil war, and religious conflicts plagued their reigns by the Jewish bankers.

In 1685, King Charles II died and the Duke of York became King James II of England. In 1688 the Jews ordered William Prince of Orange to land in England at Torbay. Because of an ongoing Campaign of L’Infamie against King James II contrived by the Jews, he abdicated and fled to France. William of Orange and Mary were proclaimed King and Queen of England.

The new King William III soon got England involved in costly wars against Catholic France which put England deep into debt. Here was the Jewish bankers’ chance to collect. So King William, under orders from the Elders of Zion in Amsterdam, persuaded the British Treasury to borrow 1.25 million pounds sterling from the Jewish bankers who had helped him to the throne.

Since the state’s debts had risen dramatically, the government had no choice but to accept. But there were conditions attached: The names of the lenders were to be kept secret and that they be granted a Charter to establish a Central Bank of England. Parliament accepted and the Jewish bankers sunk their tentacles into Great Britain.

ENTER THE ROTHSCHILDS
MAYER AMSCHEL BAUER OPENED a money lending business on Judenstrasse (Jew Street) in Frankfurt Germany in 1750 and changed his name to Rothschild. Mayer Rothschild had five sons.




The smartest of his sons, Nathan, was sent to London to establish a bank in 1806. Much of the initial funding for the new bank was tapped from the British East India Company which Mayer Rothschild had significant control of. Mayer Rothschild placed his other four sons in Frankfort, Paris, Naples, and Vienna.
In 1814, Nathanael Rothschild saw an opportunity in the Battle of Waterloo. Early in the battle, Napoleon appeared to be winning and the first military report to London communicated that fact. But the tide turned in favor of Wellington.
A courier of Nathan Rothschild brought the news to him in London on June 20. This was 24 hours before Wellington’s courier arrived in London with the news of Wellington’s victory. Seeing this fortuitous event, Nathan Rothschild began spreading the rumor that Britain was defeated.
With everyone believing that Wellington was defeated, Nathan Rothschild began to sell all of his stock on the English Stock Market. Everyone panicked and also began selling causing stocks to plummet to practically nothing. At the last minute, Nathan Rothschild began buying up the stocks at rock-bottom prices.
This gave the Rothschild family complete control of the British economy – now the financial centre of the world and forced England to set up a revamped Bank of England with Nathan Rothschild in control.
(See Sources #4 Below )




ALL ABOUT THE JEWISH VATICAN
(As much as that is possible given Rothschild secrecy)




A PRIVATE FINANCIAL CORPORATION exists today in England known as “The City.” It is also known as The Jewish Vatican located in the heart of Greater London.




A Committee of 12 men rule The Jewish Vatican. They are known as “The Crown.” The City and its rulers, The Crown, are not subject to the Parliament. They are a Sovereign State within a State.
The City is the financial hub of the world. It is here that the Rothschilds have their base of operations and their centrality of control:

* The Central Bank of England (controlled by the Rothschilds) is located in The City.
* All major British banks have their main offices in The City.
* 385 foreign banks are located in The City.
* 70 banks from the United States are located in The City.
* The London Stock Exchange is located in The City.
* Lloyd’s of London is located in The City.
* The Baltic Exchange (shipping contracts) is located in The City.
* Fleet Street (newspapers & publishing) is located in The City.
* The London Metal Exchange is located in The City.
* The London Commodity Exchange (trading rubber, wool, sugar, coffee) is located in The City.
Every year a Lord Mayor is elected as monarch of The City. The British Parliament does not make a move without consulting the Lord Mayor of The City. For here in the heart of London are grouped together Britain’s financial institutions dominated by the Rothschild-controlled Central Bank of England.

The Rothschilds have traditionally chosen the Lord Mayor since 1820. Who is the present day Lord Mayor of The City? Only the Rothschilds’ know for sure…
(See Sources #5 Below )



Sources #1: Ariel Toaff, Bloody Passover-Jews of Europe and Ritual Homicide, 2007 Click Here; J. C. Cox, Norfolk Churches; Victoria County History of Norfolk, 1906; Arnold Leese, Jewish Ritual Murder In England; Henry III, Close Roll 16; Joseph Haydn, Dictionary of Dates.

Sources #2: Isaac Disraeli, Life of Charles I, 1851; Hugh Ross Williamson, Charles and Cromwell; AHM Ramsey, The Nameless War; Lord Alfred Douglas, Plain English, 1921; Geoffrey H. Smith, The Settlement Of Jews In England

Sources #3: John Harold Wood, History of Central Banking in Great Britain; Gustaaf Johannes Renier, William of Orange

Sources #4: Frederick Morton, The Rothschilds; Benjamin Disraeli, Coningsby

Sources #5: E.C. Knuth, The Empire of The City; Des Griffin, Descent Into Slavery





In 1875, the Khedive of Egypt, forced by financial stringency, was anxious to sell his interest in the Suez Canal. Disraeli must have known of this at once through his friend and master Rothschild. A Mr. F. Greenwood, Editor of the Pall Mall Gazette, received private advices that the shares might be acquired for England, and patriotically refusing to make a journalistic “scoop” of the information, hastened to Lord Derby with the news. Lord Derby consulted with his Hebrew Prime Minister, and the latter then bought the shares. Parliament was not sitting at the time, and Disraeli borrowed £4,000,000 from his colleagues the Rothschilds, who made a profit of about £500,000, which no doubt earned for Disraeli a considerable commission. It was, of course, to the Jewish interest that Britain should hold the Suez Canal (until the Jews got Palestine out of the Great War). Disraeli had written to the Queen saying, “We have scarcely time to breathe, we must carry the matter through.” He was very, very anxious that Rothschilds should handle the loan! Now, read this extract from a letter from the Hon. G. M. Kinnaird to The Times dated 20th March, 1930.



Nathan Mayer Rothschild also funded Cecil Rhodes in the development of the British South Africa Company and the De Beers diamond conglomerate. He succeeded him as General of the Society of the Elect and later administered Rhodes's estate after his death in 1902 and helped to set up the Rhodes Scholarship scheme at Oxford University. He worked as a partner in the London branch of the family bank NM Rothschild and Sons and became head of the bank after his father's death in 1879. During his tenure he also maintained its pre-eminent position in private venture finance and in issuing loans to the governments of the USA, Russia and Austria. Following the Rothschild's funding of the Suez Canal a close relationship was maintained with Benjamin Disraeli and affairs in Egypt and the Middle East.

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## Dave A

> heres another good find
> its also a lengthy read but worth it.


Long, yes.
Worth the read? I have to disagree.

I found it disjointed and without a clear point. It was like looking at a pile of stones and someone trying to imply that if you look at them properly, you'll be able to deduce the design of the Taj Mahal.

One thought did strike me though as I was reading it:
Who's in charge of the Euro?

Any light to shed on that?

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## Blurock

Conspiracy theories. Racial hatred. Ranting. Not a good thread at all! :Rant1: 
 :Ban:

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## msmoorad

theres no conspiracy theories here
please show me whats not true in my post

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## irneb

> Conspiracy theories. Racial hatred. Ranting. Not a good thread at all!


If that's what you got from this thread then I'm extremely sorry for you. Perhaps not all posts are exactly "correct", but very few of them simply rant. Mostly what's shown or linked to in here is not "theories", but actual fact. If you want the security of burying your head in the sand, then no-one's going to blame you. Certainly not I, it's understandable - seeing as there's very little you can do anyway. Then also, few people would be willing to be stamped as "conspiracy theorists", much less singled out as "traitors" or even "terrorists" for what they say against the establishment. So most would either keep silent, or actively degrade such utterances as cr@p. Whatever your motives it's nothing new.

Another showing a less long-winded monologue: G. Edward Griffin  The Collectivist Conspiracy

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Frankincense (02-Nov-11)

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## tec0

I took some time to research a lot claims and yet to find anything tangible. Yes we have powerful organisations. Yes there is an insurmountable amount "facts" but in the end everything boils down to why?

Paper only has meaning because humanity gives it meaning. Banks only have meaning because we gave it meaning. Laws only have meaning because it is enforced. Everything we are and believe in, are in its most basic form artificial.

I agree that there are many doors close to us and many more secrets then ever imagined. Yes our history and its historic value are tainted and left wanting. Yes there are people in control. No there will never be accountability. The one thing history showed us is the fact that there are those who never ever once had any accountability for their actions whatsoever. 

Now make your peace, fall in line and get on with it. Life is not about the truth... It is about what you make of it. No amount of truth will set you free no amount of knowing will help you conclude. We are susceptible so make no mistake, this will also be used if not already.

This world is a prison, at this very moment technology in lie detecting are at the point where our minds will no longer be private because of uncontrollable brain activity. Do you honestly believe you are free or have free will?

In a prison you are victimized exploited and abused you fear for what will happen to you. The same is true when you are out of prison so there is no difference between prisoners and us. Once you realise the world for what it is there is no shutting your eyes again. 

There is no conspiracy this hell is our making.

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Dave A (31-Oct-11)

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## msmoorad

> I took some time to research a lot claims and yet to find anything tangible. Yes we have powerful organisations. Yes there is an insurmountable amount "facts" but in the end everything boils down to why?
> 
> Paper only has meaning because humanity gives it meaning. Banks only have meaning because we gave it meaning. Laws only have meaning because it is enforced. Everything we are and believe in, are in its most basic form artificial.
> 
> I agree that there are many doors close to us and many more secrets then ever imagined. Yes our history and its historic value are tainted and left wanting. Yes there are people in control. No there will never be accountability. The one thing history showed us is the fact that there are those who never ever once had any accountability for their actions whatsoever. 
> 
> Now make your peace, fall in line and get on with it. Life is not about the truth... It is about what you make of it. No amount of truth will set you free no amount of knowing will help you conclude. We are susceptible so make no mistake, this will also be used if not already.
> 
> This world is a prison, at this very moment technology in lie detecting are at the point where our minds will no longer be private because of uncontrollable brain activity. Do you honestly believe you are free or have free will?
> ...


where did you search?

did u use only "authentic" & "accredited" sources?

if so, thats where the problem lies

also the tem "anti-semite" is applied to anyone who speaks the truth abouth the zionist control/influence of govt, mainstream media & finance/banking.

a very good site: henrymakow.com

the conspiracy here is that the truth is in front of us but people are so brainwashed they cant see it.

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## Dave A

> Conspiracy theories. Racial hatred. Ranting. Not a good thread at all!


I have to disagree with at least the last part. Remove the predjudices and you lose the chance to really understand the paradigms.

Unfortunately the blatant predjudices on show is one of the reasons why this is no "easy reader" - it's a real test of one's own objectivity.

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## tec0

> where did you search?
> 
> did u use only "authentic" & "accredited" sources?
> 
> if so, thats where the problem lies
> 
> also the tem "anti-semite" is applied to anyone who speaks the truth abouth the zionist control/influence of govt, mainstream media & finance/banking.
> 
> a very good site: henrymakow.com
> ...


Aborted Babies Sold as Health Food is just one of the many things that is going completely wrong in this world. Now some will tell you it is mister Big fish and there subs that are responsible for this horrific human behaviour!

Here is the problem, Right now in some countries baby girls are being aborted because it is said "it is not even fact!" they carry little to no genetics yet enough to make sure the race will survive. The world needs less people yes but this is not the way to do it. 

So what is at play here? Big corporations breeding mindless slaves? On almost every TV show it is the homosexual that is the successful host? Do you think people enjoy watching stuff like that? I don't...

So what is the conspiracy? 

I don't see a conspiracy... I see the very worst of human nature taking its course... More importantly I see the human ego at work here. And that is more scary then any conspiracy you can imagine. 

The world is so very wrong in so many ways that we need to re-evaluate a lot of systems; Nurture, Nature, behaviour, law and education needs to be looked at. Again no conspiracy just we need to re-establish the basics otherwise there will not be a world left.

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## Blurock

> I don't see a conspiracy... I see the very worst of human nature taking its course... More importantly I see the human ego at work here. And that is more scary then any conspiracy you can imagine. 
> 
> The world is so very wrong in so many ways that we need to re-evaluate a lot of systems; Nurture, Nature, behaviour, law and education needs to be looked at. Again no conspiracy just we need to re-establish the basics otherwise there will not be a world left.


Maybe prejudice is a better word. I have to agree with Tec0 that we need to have a serious look at our value systems. What has happened to mutual respect and "treat everyone as you want to be treated?"

I hope this does not sound like a sermon, but here is my humble opinion;
Because some Muslims are planting bombs, do we have to regard all of them as terrorists? Do we have to regard all Jews as crooks because some of them have  unscrupulous business practices? 

The history of the British empire will show that they at some point have made war against the whole world and have committed many atrocities in the process. In our own country our women and children have died in their concentration camps. Do we forever have to hold a grudge against every Brit that we encounter? Likewise the German death camps is in Germany's past, it is not part of their current culture.

It is human nature to put the blame for all that's bad on someone else. All communities and all nations have good and bad elements. Concentrating on the bad will not make the world better. Let's report the bad, but let the garbage truck drive off. Do not climb aboard.  :Flowers:

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tec0 (19-Dec-11)

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## msmoorad

> Maybe prejudice is a better word. I have to agree with Tec0 that we need to have a serious look at our value systems. What has happened to mutual respect and "treat everyone as you want to be treated?"
> 
> I hope this does not sound like a sermon, but here is my humble opinion;
> Because some Muslims are planting bombs, do we have to regard all of them as terrorists? Do we have to regard all Jews as crooks because some of them have  unscrupulous business practices? 
> 
> The history of the British empire will show that they at some point have made war against the whole world and have committed many atrocities in the process. In our own country our women and children have died in their concentration camps. Do we forever have to hold a grudge against every Brit that we encounter? Likewise the German death camps is in Germany's past, it is not part of their current culture.
> 
> It is human nature to put the blame for all that's bad on someone else. All communities and all nations have good and bad elements. Concentrating on the bad will not make the world better. Let's report the bad, but let the garbage truck drive off. Do not climb aboard.


guys

nobody is saying ALL muslims, Jews or Brits & Germans are bad

when it comes to muslims- since most of the oil & natural gas(and other natural resources) are under muslim soil- the zionist controlled west is doing everything they can to make it seem as if those who resist illegal occupation of their land & stealing of their property as the bad guys.

and those jews who remain silent while their brethren steal, loot, rob, & get others to kill & die for them as just as guilty- cos they dont speak out against this
they are like silent partners.

the British colonial expeditions to colonise the world and steal its wealth was not the work of ONLY the Brits- the Rothcshild (and other) banking families had intermarried amonst the European royalty & aristocracy
they lent money on interest to these colonial govts to fund their expeditions & in return received shares in whatever was gained.

again, do some research-Hitler was funded by the zionist intl bankers.
how could the zionists get millions of jews who were living comfortable lives in Europe, to leave everything & go to live in the desert?
they had to be made to believe that they were going to ALL be killed.

these zionists sacrificed some of their own brethrens lives for the "greater good".

actually, almost all germans are very good people
they are made to feel guilty for something thats not true.

regarding the Holohoax- there was not even 6 mil Jews altogether in the world at that time- so where did the figure come from?
like Norman Finkelstein asks " if every old Jew is a Holocaust survivor, the who the hell did Hitler kill?"

theres another whole history behind the history we were all taught in school & believe to be true.
thats why its so hard to believe some of the things that are coming to light these days.

i understand what youre saying but we have to get our facts straight & ALL be on the same page.
otherwise we will be blaming the wrong people & looking in the wrong direction if/when we do decide that weve had enough & want to put an end to the evil & injustice.

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## Dave A

I rest my case on the importance of paradigms  :Stick Out Tongue:

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## msmoorad

ITS NOT ABOUT THE SA RESERVE BANK- BUT THIS IS ALL RELATED
PART OF THE BIG PICTURE.


Turkey's "Donmeh" are the Illuminati Prototype 
November 1, 2011 



(l. "Young Turkey."  Kemal Attaturk and fellow Donmeh Jews who took over Turkey by pretending to be Muslim.) 

Who are the Illuminati? The term seems fanciful and elusive. By exposing their handiwork in Turkey, Wayne Madsen identifies the satanic cult that has hijacked the world.  



by Henry Makow Ph.D. 


In a revealing article Wayne Madsen argues that recent Turkish-Israel friction is due to Turkey reclaiming its Islamic character from the "Donmeh", the crypto Jews who overthrew the Ottoman Sultan in 1908 and turned Turkey into a "secular" state. 

The attack on the Gaza flotilla was in retaliation for Turkey jailing several top Turkish military officers, journalists and academics accused of being part of the Donmeh plot to overthrow the AKP government in 2003.  

In a second article, he argues that the Ibn Saud dynasty is also Donmeh. Their fundamentalist Wahhabi religion was intended to sow division in Islam. This accounts for Saudi support for the establishment of Israel and a recent warming of relations.

The example of the Donmeh extends far beyond the Middle East. The Donmeh are part of the original Illuminati. They are Cabalistic Jews, Sabbatean Frankists, Satanists. Everything Madsen says about the Donmeh in Turkey also applies to the Bolsheviks in Russia and to the Illuminati in the United States, England, France, Germany and most of the world. 

(Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, Turkish PM, left, possibly the only not-false opposition in the world.) 

The real history of the modern world is its (political, economic, cultural and spiritual) takeover by this satanic cult. On the other hand, Turkey's ability to overthrow Donmeh control and reclaim its national destiny is a hopeful sign and inspiration.

This cult will do everything it can to be invisible and to divert our opposition elsewhere. That's why it's more important than ever to identify it.    


LEARNING ABOUT THE DONMEH

The Donmeh are the Marranos of Turkey.  The Donmeh are "a sect of Turks descended from a group of Sephardic Jews who were expelled from
Spain during the Spanish Inquisition in the 16th and 17th Centuries." 

They pretended to convert to Islam but in fact practised the Cabalist Satanism of Sabbatai Zvi and advanced a "secular" and Zionist agenda. 

Just as their Bolshevik counterparts were attempting a revolution in Russia in 1905, the Donmeh organized themselves as "Young Turks" and deposed the Ottoman Sultan Abdulhammid II in 1908. 

The Sultan was vilified but his only crime was refusing Zionist bribes to hand over Palestine. "The Jews may keep their money and their millions.." he said. "I cannot sell what is not mine. It belongs to the entire Islamic nation." 

Does this sound familiar?  Arab leader thwarts Illuminati plans. Suddenly he is deposed in a convenient "revolution." Power to the people! Freedom! Abdulhammid dies in jail. 

Turkey is stripped of its Islamic identity in the name of "secularism." Secularism is a transitory step to satanism. 

Sound familiar to Christians living in Europe and the US?

Madsen says the Donmeh "may have represented 1.5 million Turks and [their power] extended to every facet of Turkish life." Familiar?

Just as the Bolsheviks would massacre Christians and raze churches, the Donmeh slaughtered the Armenians, who were Christians and represented competition. This was the first modern genocide. Between one and 1.5 million people were killed. According to Wikipedia:

"The starting date of the genocide is conventionally held to be April 24, 1915, the day when Ottoman authorities arrested some 250 Armenian intellectuals and community leaders in Constantinople. Thereafter, the Ottoman military uprooted Armenians from their homes and forced them to march for hundreds of miles, depriving them of food and water, to the desert of what is now Syria. Massacres were indiscriminate of age or gender, with rape and other sexual abuse commonplace."

Tallaat Pasha (1874-1921), the "Donmeh Interior Minister of Turkey during World War I and Grand Master of the Scottish Rite Masons in Turkey was the chief architect of the Armenian Holocaust. He wrote, "By continuing the deportation of the Armenians to their destinations during the intense cold we are ensuring their eternal rest."

The "Young Turks" also expelled Greek Christians from Turkish cities and attempted a smaller scale genocide of Assyrians who were also mainly Christian, writes Madsen.

The Armenian Genocide foreshadowed the massacre of Christians in Russia, the Ukrainian Holodomor, and other Communist (Illuminati) atrocities in China, Cambodia and during World War Two (Hamburg, Dresden, Hiroshima etc.) 

It also foreshadowed the Jewish holocaust, where the Illuminati Jews sacrificed "their lesser brethren" (non-Sabbatean Jews) in order to reap the capital (moral and otherwise) needed to establish the Sabbatean State of Israel.

The Illuminati's bloodstained past does not augur well for the future.

("W" with his Talmud)

CONCLUSION

My hunch is that the Illuminati follows the Donmeh pattern. They are Cabalist Jews, half-Jews and crypto Jews. They appear to include generational satanists from all other ethnic backgrounds.  They form a Masonic or Cabalist secret society and participate in satanic rituals like human sacrifice. 

There is no question that this cult controls Europe, the USA, Canada and Australia. It probably controls Russia, China, India, Japan and South America too.  

Most American Presidents belong to the Illuminati. Obama, Bush, Clinton, Reagan, Carter, Johnson etc. All GOP Presidential candidates must belong to this club. Herman Cain is a Master Mason in Prince Hall Masonry. So is Obama. Bush and Kerry were both Skull and Bones.    

It's easy to get distracted, to blame capitalism or socialism and reduce the debate to that. The debate is between God and Lucifer and the people who represent them. 

The Illuminati represent Lucifer and they have pretty much taken over. They control the banks and corporations, the government, education and the mass media. We are in the late stages of a long-term conspiracy.   

But if Turkey can throw off their bondage, perhaps we can too. The first step is to identify the foe and not be distracted by their stratagems.       


<hr />--

Related -  Crypto Jews, Turkey and 9-11

Makow - The Satanic Cult that Rules the World

source:
http://savethemales.ca/

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## Dave A

At this rate speculation about a new species of amoeba emerging from the depths of the ocean is going to be part of the big picture too. Probably time to try to get this thread back somewhere close to ontrack. So...

Could the Rothschild conspiracy theorists be considered a cult?

EDIT: Oh yes - and who controls the Euro?
(for the second time of asking).

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## wynn

> EDIT: Oh yes - and who controls the Euro?
> (for the second time of asking).


The Greeks!!! :-)

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## msmoorad

no, Dave

its the same Rothschild gang.
and their cronies
its not always obvious- so many layers to look behind before you find their names anywhere.
and most of the time-their names are amongst those that are on secret/classified/confidential etc lists

Europe is where the Rothschild financial empire originated

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## Dave A

But there are no private shareholders?  :Confused: 

I thought it was the private shareholding that was the problem with the SA Reserve Bank, the US Federal Reserve etc.  :Whistling:

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## msmoorad

there are private shareholders
to avoid any unwanted exposure or conflict- its nothing for them to fabricate authentic looking reports etc that show everthing to be above board
also, it comes down to this:
who exactly are the peope behind every corporation/business entity that they list as shareholders?
just another layer to confuse people
all smoke n mirrors.

if anyone had the time, money & access to all the necessary info, youd see that its just the same handful of people/families

heres another article that shows how most of the big companies are inter-related/linked:
http://www.newscientist.com/article/...ef=online-news

you can see its Barclays at #1 spot- they are directly controlled by the Rothschilds.


do you honestly think theyre that stupid to not know how to fool people?
they didnt get where they are by being oblivious to whats going on around them
on the contrary, they are always one step ahead

i know youre just patronising me but if you dont want to see it or expect them to confess/come clean
then carry on being blissfully ignorant

you guys have too much faith in the "system" & the words of those regarded as the authority.

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## msmoorad

im going to paste an article from henrymakow.com
i think its very related to our Reserve bank & the Rothschilds:

The "Jewish" Conspiracy is British Imperialism
May 30, 2004 


Conspiracy theorists like myself believe modern history reflects a long-term conspiracy by an international financial elite to enslave humanity.

Like blind men examining an elephant, we attribute this conspiracy to Jews, Illuminati, Vatican, Jesuits, Freemasons, Black Nobility, and Bildersbergs etc. 

The real villains are at the heart of our economic and cultural life. They are the dynastic families who own the Bank of England, the US Federal Reserve and associated cartels. They also control the World Bank and IMF and most of the world's Intelligence agencies. Their identity is secret but Rothschild is certainly one of them. The Bank of England was "nationalized" in 1946 but the power to create money remained in the same hands. 

England is in fact a financial oligarchy run by the "Crown" which refers to the "City of London" not the Queen. The City of London is run by the Bank of England, a private corporation. The square-mile-large City is a sovereign state located in the heart of greater London. As the "Vatican of the financial world," the City is not subject to British law. 

On the contrary, the bankers dictate to the British Parliament. In 1886, Andrew Carnegie wrote that, "six or seven men can plunge the nation into war without consulting Parliament at all." Vincent Vickers, a director of the Bank of England from 1910-1919 blamed the City for the wars of the world. ("Economic Tribulation" (1940) cited in Knuth, The Empire of the City, 1943, p 60) 

The British Empire was an extension of bankers' financial interests. Indeed, all the non-white colonies (India, Hong Kong, Gibraltar) were "Crown Colonies." They belonged to the City and were not subject to British law although Englishmen were expected to conquer and pay for them. 

The Bank of England assumed control of the U.S. during the T.R. Roosevelt administration (1901-1909) when its agent J.P. Morgan took over 25% of American business. (Anton Chaitkin, Treason in America, 1964)

According to the "American Almanac," the bankers are part of a network called the "Club of the Isles" which is an informal association of predominantly European-based royal households including the Queen. The Club of the Isles commands an estimated $10 trillion in assets. It lords over such corporate giants as Royal Dutch Shell, Imperial Chemical Industries, Lloyds of London, Unilever, Lonrho, Rio Tinto Zinc, and Anglo American DeBeers. It dominates the world supply of petroleum, gold, diamonds, and many other vital raw materials; and deploys these assets at the disposal of its geopolitical agenda. 

Its goal: to reduce the human population from its current level of over 5 billion people to below 1 billion people within the next two to three generations; to literally ``cull the human herd'' in the interest of retaining their own global power and the feudal system upon which that power is based. 

Historian Jeffrey Steinberg could be referring to the US, Canada and Australia when he writes, "England, Scotland, Wales, and, especially, Northern Ireland, are today little more than slave plantations and social engineering laboratories, serving the needs of ...the City of London...

These families constitute a financier oligarchy; they are the power behind the Windsor throne. They view themselves as the heirs to the Venetian oligarchy, which infiltrated and subverted England from the period 1509-1715, and established a new, more virulent, Anglo-Dutch-Swiss strain of the oligarchic system of imperial Babylon, Persia, Rome, and Byzantium.... 

The City of London dominates the world's speculative markets. A tightly interlocking group of corporations, involved in raw materials extraction, finance, insurance, transportation, and food production, controls the lion's share of the world market, and exerts virtual ``choke point'' control over world industry." 

Steinberg belongs to a group of historians associated with economist Lyndon Larouche. They have traced this scourge to the migration of the Venetian mercantile oligarchy to England more than 300 years ago. 

Although the Larouche historians do not say so, it appears that many members of this oligarchy were Jews. Cecil Roth writes: "The trade of Venice was overwhelmingly concentrated in the hands of the Jews, the wealthiest of the mercantile class." (The History of the Jews in Venice, 1930) 

As William Guy Carr points out in Pawns in the Game, both Oliver Cromwell and William of Orange were funded by Jewish bankers. The English Revolution (1649) was the first in a series of revolutions designed to give them world hegemony. The establishment of the Bank of England by William in 1694 was the next crucial step. Behind the facade, England has been a "Jewish" state for over 300 years. (pp.20-24)

The Jewish banking families made it a practice to marry their female offspring to spendthrift European aristocrats. In Jewish law, the mixed offspring of a Jewish mother is Jewish. (The male heirs marry Jews although the Victor and Jacob Rothschild are exceptions .) For example, in 1878 Hannah Rothschild married Lord Rosebery. who later became Prime Minister. In 1922 Louis Mountbatten, the uncle of Prince Philip and cousin of the Queen married the granddaughter of Jewish banker Ernest Cassel, one of the wealthiest men in the world. Winston Churchill's mother, Jenny (Jacobson) Jerome, was Jewish. By the beginning of the 1900s, there were very few English aristocrat families left that hadn't intermarried with Jews. It was said that, when they visited the Continent, Europeans were surprised to see Jewish looking persons with English titles and accents. 

According to L.G. Pine, the Editor of Burke's Peerage , Jews "have made themselves so closely connected with the British peerage that the two classes are unlikely to suffer loss which is not mutual. So closely linked are the Jews and the lords that a blow against the Jews in this country would not be possible without injuring the aristocracy also." (Tales of the British Aristocracy1957, p.219.) 

If they aren't Jewish by intermarriage, many European aristocrats consider themselves descendents of Biblical Hebrews. The Hapsburgs are related by marriage to the Merovingians who claim to be descendents of the Tribe of Benjamin. 

In addition, many aristocrats belong to the "British Israel" Movement that believes the British soveriegn is the head of the Anglo Saxon "Lost Tribes" of Israel and that the Apocalyse will see the full reconstitution of the British Empire.

According to Barbara Aho, Rosicrucians and Freemasons, who believe in British Israelism, have a plan to place one of their bloodline on the throne of the rebuilt Temple in Jerusalem. This positioning of a false messiah whom the world will worship as Christ has been carefully planned and executed over many centuries. 

According to Barry Chamish, "there would be no modern state of Israel without British Freemasonry. In the 1860s, the British-Israelite movement was initiated from within Freemasonry. Its goal was to establish a Jewish-Masonic state in the Turkish province of Palestine...Initially, British Jewish Masonic families like the Rothschilds and Montefiores provided the capital to build the infrastructure for the anticipated wave of immigration. However, luring the Jews to Israel was proving difficult. They, simply, liked European life too much to abandon it. So Europe was to be turned into a nightmare for the Jews."

CONCLUSION

I wasted much of my life getting a conventional education, so I feel I am beginning my education anew. 

It appears that a vampire-like clique directs the world. This secretive cabal is represented by our dominant political, economic and cultural institutions. Western society has been subverted and western culture is bankrupt. Democracy is a form of social control and the mass media/ education are systems for indoctrination.

Essentially the problem boils down to whether we believe man was made in God's image and has an obligation to lift himself to a higher level of truth, beauty and justice. Naturally monopolists have no use for this and want to define reality to suit their own interests. They have taught us that God is dead and man is just a fancy animal without a divine soul. Culture today tends to deny standards, ideals and goals of any kind. Instead, we are fed an endless diet of trivia and degradation. 

Certain elite Jews are an integral part of this elite neo feudal conspiracy. Throughout history they have had a symbiotic relationship with the aristocracy. But ordinary Jews like the serfs were manipulated and persecuted by their elites. 

True Judaism like Islam and Christianity affirms the supremacy of God as a moral force. A real Jew, like a true Christian or Muslim cannot perform an immoral act. It's time to reaffirm our belief in God. 

----

See also my "Winston Churchill, Illuminati"

See also my "The Riddle of Anti Semitism" 

See also my "Is the New World Order Jewish?" 

HG Wells' "The world state as extension of British Empire" 

A History of Jewish Power in England 

See also The Bnai Brith as British Imperialist Asset

See Also "Rothschild Churchil and the Final Solution" by Clifford Shack

Related article: Rixon Steward's Final Countdown 

source:http://savethemales.ca/000447.html

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## Dave A

> Its goal: to reduce the human population from its current level of over 5 billion people to below 1 billion people within the next two to three generations; to literally ``cull the human herd'' in the interest of retaining their own global power and the feudal system upon which that power is based.


They're not doing very well, are they. I believe we've broken through 7 billion recently.

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Frankincense (04-Nov-11)

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## Frankincense

Bloodshed is guaranteed...fret not...it's still gonna hit the fan....enablers hard at work...system check "ok"

You are free to do as we tell you

 :Gunsmilie:

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## irneb

> They're not doing very well, are they. I believe we've broken through 7 billion recently.


You'll note how the media have been advocating a certain idea for the last few decades: "The Green Movement".

If you follow all of its tenets logically, there's only one conclusion: "There are simply too much humans for this planet." That would be the reason (at least one of them) put forward for excusing such culling - awaiting the time when "public" (read media-mind-changing) opinion has swayed to such a level as to "allow" such "atrocity". I'm not saying they're "wrong" per-say, it's more like a bad pill to swallow as a solution to a problem they've created themselves.

One of the oldest conspiracy theories is the main tool used in this, even the fact that it's named as a conspiracy theory is part of the plan itself: Hegelian Dialectic ... note how simple this is? http://theconspiracyexposed.blogspot...em-create.html

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## tec0

Well in some cases people will say just about anything, firstly 


> Bloodshed is guaranteed...fret not...it's still gonna hit the fan....enablers hard at work...system check "ok"
> 
> You are free to do as we tell you


 Well considering the age old tax law and basic law structure this part is already true. And for the better part I would imagine. Imagine if there were no laws?  :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):  Hell on earth comes to mind...

A controlling body is not new you call them whatever you want.   

But the answer can be found in a computer video game called Fallout 3. It is a brilliant game I recommend it highly. Firstly the concept of money is Nuka-cola bottle caps. It is accepted as money because people needed something to trade with and it was an easy answer. The same is true in our world. 

If you want to screw the bank use something else and implement it as currency. See the point I am making is people are in power because the laws say so. They say that only X can be used as money and you can only get it at Y. In fallout 3 you get to discover that your morality is the law and anything else goes only if you allow it.

So there is no conspiracy, if seven billion people say screw the bank, the bank will be screwed. If seven billion people say give us weapons so that they can defend their right to life no government in the world can deny them. 

The truth is we are in control the illusion is the world around one. The people has the power always had the power. That is why we call it a democracy. 

Even the UN military consist of men and women with families, there morality and respective points of view. So if a bad order is given chances are it will be questioned.

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## Blurock

> With tapes of this on the news every night, what does everyone think? Did Mboweni act in a racist manner?
> 
> To me, he might not have handled the matter in the best way possible, but it feels like Pretorius is making a mountain out of a molehill. Suck it up and get on with life, nobody would have even known what happened in that meeting if it wasn't for this complaint. What do you guys think?


This is exactly why you should fight government's intention to silence the media. You have a right to be informed! This is the only way that we can fight corruption. :Batman:

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## msmoorad

here dave

there an article on the Euro on henrymakow.com
im doing a copy n paste
i know it does not answer the question u asked but im sure you will enjoy it:

Will Eurozone Survive or Humanity? 
November 4, 2011 

left. EU Parliament modeled on Tower of Babel

The Eurozone is dysfunctional 
but it is a cornerstone of the Masonic Jewish 
(Illuminati) Bankers'  World Government. 
They plan to use this crisis
 to transform a monetary union into a fiscal and
 political behemoth ruled by them.







"Echoing Angela Merkels call for a more united Europe, European Central Bank president Jean Claude Trichet calls for further fiscal and monetary consolidation of EMU countries.

Talking about the current EMU crisis, which he characterizes as "the gravest crisis since World War I" , he calls for further financial consolidation which, he hopes, would stabilize the economies of the members of EMU."  Source




by Anthony Migchels
(henrymakow.com) 






A lot has been said about the Euro's problems, most from a purely economic standpoint. It is clear that the imbalances that the Euro created in Europe are not sustainable. 


Germany and its satellites (Netherlands, Finland, Austria) are much more competitive than Club Med. Because of the Euro the latter group of nations cannot devalue their currencies resulting in trade deficits and net capital out flow to the North.


Therefore the Euro's existence depends on a permanent bail out mechanism for the South which not sustainable.


But economics are of lesser import here. The Euro was not created to build wealth but as a step toward a World Currency. To rule the world, one must first rule Europe. Clearly, the Euro is the central bankers' pet project.


GRADUAL PROCESS


The current crisis is not at all unexpected. The Eurocrats couldn't get their coveted Federation in 1992, at the time of the Maastricht Treaty so they had to settle for the Euro. 


They reasoned the 'right major crises' would pop up at some point, making clear that monetary union without fiscal union is impossible. They expect the nation states of Europe to surrender fiscal sovereignty to save the Euro.


In a recent article, an insider journalist, Ambrose Evans-Pritchard, exposed this process:


 "Certain architects of EMU calculated that the single currency would itself become the catalyst for a quantum leap in integration that could not be achieved otherwise..... This was the Monnet Method of fait accompli and facts on the ground. These great manipulators of Europe's destiny may yet succeed, but so far the crisis is not been remotely beneficial."


He ends his intriguing report with the point that, "I think it is fair to say events are unfolding more or less as we expected."




WILL THE EURO FAIL?


If you look at the economic data, IT SHOULD. But if you realize the world is run by a few bankers who want World Government, with a World Currency the answer is 'no'.


However, over the last two years, the Eurocrats have suffered badly. The popular resistance, both in the North and the South, is dramatic. Recently, the German Supreme Court allowed Merkel to go ahead with what had been done, but clearly reprimanded her for the lack of democratic legitimacy and the breach of the Maastricht Treaty, which does not allow fiscal or bond cooperation.


What happens if Greece leaves the Euro? Could they ever allow Romania, Bulgaria, and all these other second-rate nations in if even Greece couldn't deal with the Euro's dynamics? How would they ever sell World Currency if they cannot even make the Euro work?


Their biggest problem is that they lack all legitimacy. In 2005, France and the Netherlands rejected their 'European Constitution' by a resounding 60-40 margin. They pushed ahead with Lisbon anyway, but this was a disaster.


They need the popular vote. The Protocols make clear they need to say: 'you wanted this, you voted for it'. Without this legitimacy, they face revolt at any time. They can't push ahead if the underlying treaties and laws were never accepted by the populace.


So when Papandreou calls a referendum and 'the markets' and Merkozy are in total shock, what does this show? It just exposes the quicksand under their feet.


They know this, but they are losing. They are losing the battle for the mind and they are pushing ahead because they have no other way.


WORLD GOVERNMENT AT STAKE 


This whole European mess represents massive crisis for mankind. If the Euro fails, a death blow will be landed on their NWO project. It will take them decades to recover and resume the march to World Government. But they don't have this time, because people are waking up.


True, the Occupiers are still largely clueless, but in Europe, where austerity is already biting badly, people are being forced to look for answers. There is talk of debt repudiation; there is the Icelandic example and there is of course interest free currency. In Germany dozens of regional currencies are flowering: they report 100% per annum growth.


It is now more important then ever to start talking solutions. We must keep in mind that this credit crunch is a total fabrication that could be solved over night.


 Interest free currency is the main solution. Debt free Government currencies are a quick fix, but far from ideal. Much better is Public Banking, which is interest free credit provided by state-owned banks. But eventually the Illuminati (Masonic Jewish)  monopoly of currencies must end.


With the Oceans on the brink of collapse after Deep Horizon and Fukushima, with the Credit Crunch, with (HAARP induced) earthquakes everywhere and wars and rumors of wars its fair to say the NWO is preparing for their endgame.


But seeing their weakness in Europe, the result is not a foregone conclusion. 


The challenge is to provide real alternatives. It is not enough to expose them. They expect a fight, but they expect to succeed,because they don't think we can create the right solutions. 


Jacques Attali, another insider: 'Most of these new contestants will propose no system of substitution... Except for a handful who will propose a return to theocracy.'


So we know what to do. Let's get going.

--
Related - Greek Game-plan Revealed by Freemason? 

Further reading:

http://realcurrencies.wordpress.com/...etary-systems/
http://realcurrencies.wordpress.com/...ee-currencies/

The first article is an in depth analysis of Government controlled currencies (the Greenback, Social Credit, Public Banking).

The second explores the idea of a free market for currencies, so that the users of the money have a choice.


Anthony Migchels is an Interest-Free Currency activist and founder of the Gelre, the first Regional Currency in the Netherlands. You can read all of his articles on his blog Real Currencies

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## Frankincense

@Tec0 -"The people has the power always had the power" ..no...i will refer to a book which you may consider crap, but still, i will to explain something:

Even Christ was offered all by Satan on the mountain, coz ownership of all was given to darkness for a period. The humans were never given power over earth. Thats why you see governments come and go, revolutions come and go...but the earth has not become more loyal, more kinder. This power you speak of, even if some humans revolt against the banks as is happening now, they will be tortured / accused / abused /imprisoned and many killed. It's not something a human revolution will ever accomplish, though there are/will be killing. The destruction of the 666 network currently being developed by the very same banks (business's of satan) can only be ended once its purpose is fulfilled. The destruction will also be divine, not human. Even if you don't agree, i care less. This is my interpretation and work.

You still seem to believe in governmental concepts such as democracy / socialism / communism as if they have an influence on what really matters? Monarchy / republic / democracy...never changed anything...everybody is under the same bank, even the governments! 

Its not bad that you feel humans can do something, but humbly one needs to accept reality that some things are meant to be the way they are and no smart ass  idea will change that. Some of us want to hear a solution to every problem, but to this problem of your banks and your flesh, all humans can do is die or look to divinity and many dont like that solution, so the blabbering continues with foolish solutions. banks dont even need your money nor business anymore. All they need is to regulate that there will be no buying or selling without them. Thats very achievable already as no one in SA may earn wages/a living without an account number. Some banks even pay you to open an account now. They have way more money that you can imagine.'You seem to think banks are like little spaza shops on the corner of the road where if we all ''stand together'' we can put them out of business! Please contextualise your thoughts to increase your understanding. Absolute foolishness.

Hope you realise Divinity has a huge part in this solution, if not....you are on your own.

You are free!

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## Frankincense

as for the EU and currency issues...we have heard the international bankers would like a single currency on the chips. Naturally the SDR of the IMF & World bank are considered fitting to replace dollar / Euro / Yen /Other 

Special Drawing Rights (SDRs) are supplementary foreign exchange reserve assets defined and maintained by the International Monetary Fund (IMF). Not a currency, SDRs instead represent a claim to currency held by IMF member countries for which they may be exchanged.[1] As they can only be exchanged for Euros, Japanese yen, UK pounds, or US dollars,[imf 1] SDRs may actually represent a potential claim on IMF member countries' nongold foreign exchange reserve assets, which are usually held in those currencies. While they may appear to have a far more important part to play, or, perhaps, an important future role, being the unit of account for the IMF has long been the main function of the SDR

 ..point is irrespective of the fiscal monitory unification you see taking place, with some even beliveing its a crisis, the end goal is the same, one world currency control. These are calculated crises meant to fulfil a purpose. All belong on same mainframe. binary code differences and name tagging of digits is irrelevant.

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msmoorad (05-Nov-11)

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## tec0

Francois > Well if you think you are alone in the world then so bit. I cannot change that point of view. 





> @Tec0 -"The people has the power always had the power" ..no...i will refer to a book which you may consider crap, but still, i will to explain something:


 ouch... 




> The destruction of the 666 network currently being developed by the very same banks (business's of satan) can only be ended once its purpose is fulfilled. The destruction will also be divine, not human. Even if you don't agree, i care less. This is my interpretation and work.


 Allow me to explain a situation we are in today. A social structure needs law and order any structure does even a religious one. But all structures will maintain their meaning as long as humanity gives it a meaning. If we don't give it meaning it cannot be enforced. 





> You still seem to believe in governmental concepts such as democracy / socialism / communism as if they have an influence on what really matters? Monarchy / republic / democracy...never changed anything...everybody is under the same bank, even the governments!


 You are only a slave to a ideal bank or no bank. 




> Its not bad that you feel humans can do something, but humbly one needs to accept reality that some things are meant to be the way they are and no smart ass  idea will change that.


 The nuclear age changed everything. 




> Some of us want to hear a solution to every problem, but to this problem of your banks and your flesh, all humans can do is die or look to divinity and many dont like that solution, so the blabbering continues with foolish solutions.


 Why do you wish us to be so powerless? Seriously nay-saying never helps any situation. 




> They have way more money that you can imagine.'You seem to think banks are like little spaza shops on the corner of the road where if we all ''stand together'' we can put them out of business! Please contextualise your thoughts to increase your understanding. Absolute foolishness.


I can imagine a world without money or the need of currency. That is the point I am making and advocating. You seem to forget that we as humans came a long way. We have the knowledge and capability to realise that social structure can be maintained if everyone did their part. This can start with something as simple as a condom or something as brilliant as ColdFusion. 

When something moves from an ideal to a concept. What follows is realisation and with it minds will change people will work towards it because it holds a promise to sustainability. Sustainability IS a priority to survival thus a key to human nature.





> Hope you realise Divinity has a huge part in this solution, if not....you are on your own.


I hate it when people play this hand. Seriously it is always if you are not with us you are on your own. Or the newest version of that is "if you are not with us you are against us" If that is your attitude sir then don't worry about the banks, the devil and evil and hate or pain because you are doing a fine job on your own. 

Dividing people and branding them does much more  damage then you care to realise. So whatever Francois... Then I am on my own.  :Slayer: 

I rather dismiss group mentality and think for myself thanks...  :Smile:

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## Blurock

If only a fraction of the time and effort spent on all this negative energy could be channeled into improving the life of only one person, the world would already be a better place. :Console:

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tec0 (06-Nov-11)

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## Frankincense

Time will illustrate all I have said. I am explaining that some problems we face have no solution to make them go away. Its not for us to remove this obstacle. If you want to feel all powerful and have an attitude of ''together we can change the world'' feel free...its not gonna happen...but many are trying and many will be killed. thats not nay saying, its my interpretation of prophecy. Once again...as the time goes on, we shall see who was on point. We either accept its regulations or revolt. It is literally ''choose your side'' event on the rise. i cannot argue with that. You cannot say ''we give it meaning, if we dont the problem has gone'' ...some things are in place...like a tree...whether or not we choose to give it meaning or not, does not remove its existence. Banks will cause all rich n poor, free n bond...there's no ''oh, just imagine it has no meaning'' Thats Fantasy not reality. Stop thinking humans can solve all their own problems alone. Thats not group thinking either, its common sense. history will bear testimony to what i say here. You speak of a nuclear age changing something...all it did was give humans more responsibility to remain calm, but never changed anything, never made anyone more loyal, kinder. The primary purpose of all this financial crises and introduction of finacial controls is to divide the people. Depending on which side you find yourself, your reward is waiting. I am merely showing the two sides here clearly, and as they exist, you can choose God or Money as the noose is tightened. Really a presonal choice...exile has always been a personal choice.

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## Frankincense

It was God who said ''If you are not for me, you are against me'' its really up to you to accept that or not...its not the latest commercial or ANCYL slogan...its a statement made and will stand the test of all time.

We are in this world together and as we share concerning our understandings, its proof we co-exist in one world.

Whatever the task may be, man may begin it but he cannot complete it, unless God sustains and supports him. If he fails to accomplish the task on which he has set out, having worked to the best of his ability, he is not to be maligned by being called lazy.

Man may, at the onset, control the direction which events take, but once his choice is made, events soon escape his control and history proceeds by its own force and momentum.

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## Dave A

One thing I expect we can agree on (except Francois, perhaps) - this Greek crisis probably puts an end to any thoughts of a singular world currency. It really does show the flaws inherent in such a scheme. If the establishment of the Euro was a cynical move towards establishing a New World Order, I think it's safe to say it has backfired.




> Allow me to explain a situation we are in today. A social structure needs law and order any structure does even a religious one. But all structures will maintain their meaning as long as humanity gives it a meaning.


Touché. If you think about it, definitely as true for religions as it is for currency  :Stick Out Tongue:

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tec0 (06-Nov-11)

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## tec0

Francois > In a way I give hope every chance I can. Choose between money or deity. Well no... Every action has an equal and opposite reaction. Basically Newton's law on a epic scale. 

Remember if you give someone nothing to live for they have nothing to lose. This is evident in these so called "religious" suicide-bombers. Now imagine you are right the supper rich take control and the supper poor just don't care anymore. It will be the war of wars. Nothing will stop them simply because they have nothing to fear and death is there only finality regardless of action. 

Freedom will come at a highest price "the lives of the slain" but such is the price of freedom. I don't undervalue the importance of deity but one must not undervalue the human spirit and hope.  Even if we stand to lose be tortured or murdered. 

If you are right and the poor is dead and gone, the rich will become the norm and history will repeat itself again and again. 

I just hope humanity can see past this and realise there are systems we simply don't need.




> It was God who said ''If you are not for me, you are against me''


 I am against the people that think they can speak on behalf of something they cannot begin to comprehend. AND judge others because they think they know better.  

The only thing I follow is my own mind my own morality.

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## wynn

There is a movement in the US to punish the offending banks by moving all accounts out of the major national banks to community banks this is estimated to cost the major banks such as Bank of America billions of dollars.

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tec0 (07-Nov-11)

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## irneb

> ... So there is no conspiracy, if seven billion people say screw the bank, the bank will be screwed. ...


Good point ... to a point  :Zzzzz: 
If you look at how it works, you notice that the "majority" never "make the rules", they simply allow a small minority to rule over them. I don't know what to call it, laziness, apathy, stupidity, fear, aversion to change, "loyalty", ignorance ... there's just too many possibilities. It's probably a combination of all those.

Look through history, no government actually consisted of the majority - not even the ancient Athenians, who had their forum consisting of the landowners only (no slaves and no serfs, none of those making up the great majority of the Athens population at the time). Even if it was started "by the people, for the people" it ended up with a ruling class who were "right even if they're wrong", which is the case now in America (and IMO every other country as well). And then even to show it more clearly, the majority never started a revolution. There was always some group (usually rather small, but never even approaching some majority number) who swept up the masses to topple the existing regime - note this small group then ended up becoming the new regime. They may even have had all the best intentions when they started the revolution, but if they didn't become the thing they designed the destruction of, they became even worse.

Until the sheep mentality of the masses (i.e. the axiom of a mob is only as smart as its most stupid member) can be overcome, a "majority rule" is simply impossible. It only needs some sweet talking politician figurehead to change their perception of the truth - as an example. There are several other ways such overruling class can keep "letting you have their way", if all else fails then "martial law" - which usually then precedes a revolution.

Strange though how the people who are deemed to be the behind-the-scenes government never seem to change. Even after revolutions they still remain. That's the essence of why they "let" a figurehead government do their job for them. Give the people a target for when they get fed up with the situation. Then send in a new batch of figureheads to start sweeping the people into a revolution before they do so for themselves. Then let them destroy that old target to vent their anger, and you get a result of newly docile and malleable mobs - easy to govern again. Even more so since your new figurehead appears to be the hero who defeated the "demon".

In the days of the European colonies, there was a concept of the "Great Game" (probably still is). This was indicated as the separate countries trying to out do each other by owning the most and most prosperous colonies. You could see it as an early form of the cold war. Or rather, that's what the masses were intended to believe. If not for the foundations built by the colonization then this current move towards globalization would have been a near impossibility.




> This is exactly why you should fight government's intention to silence the media. You have a right to be informed! This is the only way that we can fight corruption.


Yes, but what if the media is already a tool of the government. Or rather the government behind the false façade called the government? If the media are truly separate from any such entities I'd say Yay! They should be free to print / say / show anything they can to indicate wrongful doings by the "government". Unfortunately most (if not all) media are also owned by someone (or even such government directly or indirectly), to say that such media do not have any agenda of their own is ignorant.

I'm always a bit concerned when a government vilifies any other entity. Especially if such government is having trouble at the time. It's a way of putting someone forward as "being a antagonist of the regime" - by the regime. But how would anyone else know if that entity is only a lackey of the very same regime they purport to expose? Do you really think the powers behind the "powers that _appear to_ be" are stupid enough not to have thought of such?

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## tec0

From "Hands Held High" by Linkin Park





> Like this war's really just a different brand of war
> Like it doesn't cater the rich and abandon poor





> Like they understand you in the back of the jet
> When you can't put gas in your tank





> These f*cker$ are laughing their way to the bank and cashing the cheque
> Asking you to have compassion and have some respect





> On the back, he hand-wrote a quote inside
> When the rich wage war it's the poor who die





> Meanwhile, the leader just talks away
> Stuttering and mumbling for nightly news to replay





> And the rest of the world watching at the end of the day
> both scared and angry like "what did he say?"



Regardless of what the people said the process is started and forcing the new road toll system on to South Africans is in process. One don't think they considered the working class. Yes taxis are free to roam the roads... That said the petrol being transported will still pay. So eventually one will feel it as food becomes more expensive and the list will go on. 

That said people will call themselves into action as their families suffer and as seen in townships a movement will go forth and those responsible will find themselves outnumbered in the end they always do. Make no mistake, as shown on the news in this song, it is in music it is held by the internet culture to put forth the truth and give people the desire to be free.

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## Justloadit

While you still have something to lose, you will continue to press on trying to make ends meet, then that one day, whatever you had is lost, is the day of reckoning. In my book that day is not far off, I can feel the tension around the city

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## tec0

Pick your date, pick your century there is always a war there is always some kind of revolt or confusion and a benefactor at work. Dominance is and will always be part of life "until we can do away with a few useless systems that is..."

The process will repeat itself until it change. There is no conspiracy here, corruption yes there is corruption. Yes things will change in order to sustain life and that is fact. Self preservation demands it.

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## AndyD

> The process will repeat itself until it change. There is no conspiracy here, corruption yes there is corruption.


Corruption is just a form of greed and greed is just one facet of human nature. Human nature doesn't change.




> Beware the beast Man, for he is the Devil's pawn. Alone among God's primates, he kills for sport or lust or greed. Yea, he will murder his brother to possess his brother's land. Let him not breed in great numbers, for he will make a desert of his home and yours. Shun him; drive him back into his jungle lair, for he is the harbinger of death.
> 
> Dr. Cornelius (1968 A.D.)


 :Big Grin:

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