# Regulatory Compliance Category > Labour Relations and Legislation Forum >  Bad attitude

## Hannes Botha

Seems I always have labour related issues...

I have this lady that has been working with the company for about 10 years and with us for about 5 (since we purchased the business) She is a bit of a hard-ass which you need to be in the motor industry, ordering guys around. I've had some complaints of bad attitude before but I attributed it to her no-nonsense approach, and compliments were more forthcoming than complaints. Often it would just be her wording to a customer for example: "Sir, you'll have to wait your turn for wheel alignment" instead of "Sir would you mind waiting a bit for wheel alignment?, I do have a few cars booked before you"

Yesterday things came to a head as I was doing some admin in the office I was called to the floor. I came to the reception counter to find her and a customer in a exchange of word in the realm of "F__k you" and "Jou ma se p__s" I tried to calm the situation, but her and this customer was like fire and petrol. While I was talking to the customer. My sales lady had phoned the police because the customer had threatened to give her "a m__rse klap" At one stage I told her to go into the office, so I can get the customer alone, but in the heat she was out there and back 2 seconds later.

How do I handle this? Do I give her a final written warning for being rude to a customer? Do I charge her at a formal hearing chaired by the RMI for i) Being rude to a customer, and ii) Not being competent for her position, and iii) Insubordination and suggest she either be dismissed or be demoted to admin lady? Do I give her a final written warning and force her to go for training in order to equip her better to handle such situations and communicate better to customers?

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## roryf

If one of my staff members swore at one of my customers I would dimiss them.Regardless of who swore first or who started the altercation.Also having been told to go away and then still come back again.

I would not have the person in my business,even if they were a key person!

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## Hannes Botha

Thanks Rory, my feelings as well...I'll contact the RMI...Thank you

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## adrianh

Imagine if the customer or a bystander had filmed the exchange and posted it on Facebook or Youtube. It very easily cause the very quick demise of your business.

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Citizen X (16-Feb-16)

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## flaker

> Imagine if the customer or a bystander had filmed the exchange and posted it on Facebook or Youtube. It very easily cause the very quick demise of your business.


That sounds serious more especially in today's business environment where we go the extra bit to gain customer satisfaction & word of mouth recommendations.

If you really need her, perhaps sending her to some anger management etc courses may be a consideration. But a disciplinary hearing is a must

Getting hold of the customer and rendering an apology and advisimg  him of the  course you're taking to address the unfortunate incident will also help

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## Hannes Botha

The RMI suggests I do not dismiss, but give her a final written warning. I would like to ad soft skills training to that, but not sure which...Sales...Dealing with difficult people...?

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## roryf

Your choice at the end of the day.My staff know exactly what would happen to them if this happened in my workplace.

Each to their own,I hope you come right with the staff member concerned

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## bones

stress is a big problem for many people to date my business has printed 
over 400 cvs and they are just standing in line this is telling work is not 
easy to get more importantly it is telling me that our economy is in a 
bad way customers will be stressed because many of them are facing 
unemployment 

the customer might well be just as guilty as your staff member it is not 
impossible to imagine i sometimes get customers and i ask them to go 

anger management and management course is applicable here also tell 
her if you ask her to leave a situation that she must respect you if she 
cannot do that then dismissal

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## adrianh

> If one of my staff members swore at one of my customers I would dimiss them.Regardless of who swore first or who started the altercation.Also having been told to go away and then still come back again.
> 
> I would not have the person in my business,even if they were a key person!


I fully agree with you. An employee is representative of the values of the business. As such the employee should always act in an appropriate and respectful manner no matter what.  An interaction should never escalate to that level. If the employee feels threatened, insulted or angry they should hand the situation over to a superior. If the employee is unable to keep their cool and be respectful then they should rather find a job where it is not a requirement.

To put my thoughts into common language: "I would fire her ass"  :Gun Bandana:

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## bones

when the CCMA gets involved sometimes the question is 
asked what the employer did to help the employee then 
the dismissal gets messy i recommend to contact 
someone that knows the labour laws and can give you 
proper advice dont go on what people say get the fact
make sure the dismissal is fair first

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## Greig Whitton

The problem with going straight to dismissal is:

1. It's (arguably) excessive;
2. The employee has not been afforded a reasonable opportunity to change her behaviour in line with conduct standards; and
3. By OP's own admission, previous complaints about her attitude have (seemingly) been tolerated.

A formal disciplinary hearing + final written warning + anger management / relationship management training sounds like the most sensible response.

Do you have a workplace policy detailing standards of conduct as well as disciplinary consequences for failing to adhere to those requirements? If not, implement one. While it's not a legal requirement, it can make it a lot easier to justify dismissal should it come to that.

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flaker (14-Feb-16)

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## roryf

> when the CCMA gets involved sometimes the question is 
> asked what the employer did to help the employee then 
> the dismissal gets messy i recommend to contact 
> someone that knows the labour laws and can give you 
> proper advice dont go on what people say get the fact
> make sure the dismissal is fair first


Bones,I would fight this one in the CCMA if the employee did take it further.Something are worth fighting for,but like I said each to their own.My workplace/business and how it is run is a reflection on me.

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## Dave A

> My staff know exactly what would happen to them if this happened in my workplace.


In that situation you probably wouldn't have a problem moving to dismissal. 

In the circumstances described by the op though, I agree with Greig.




> A formal disciplinary hearing + final written warning + anger management / relationship management training sounds like the most sensible response.

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## Citizen X

> Imagine if the customer or a bystander had filmed the exchange and posted it on Facebook or Youtube. It very easily cause the very quick demise of your business.


How very true

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## Citizen X

> The RMI suggests I do not dismiss, but give her a final written warning. I would like to ad soft skills training to that, but not sure which...Sales...Dealing with difficult people...?


I see a common problem that many employers have, they don't have a customised disciplinary code and procedure in place. Employers are responsible for administrative justice in their businesses, subject to the LRA. To do so effectively an employer should have a disciplinary code and procedure in place.subject to the LRA, some rules are so common that all employees are expected to be aware of them. It can only harm an employer not to have a proper disciplinary code and procedure in place.

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## roryf

> I see a common problem that many employers have, they don't have a customised disciplinary code and procedure in place. Employers are responsible for administrative justice in their businesses, subject to the LRA. To do so effectively an employer should have a disciplinary code and procedure in place.subject to the LRA, some rules are so common that all employees are expected to be aware of them. It can only harm an employer not to have a proper disciplinary code and procedure in place.


Vanash is spot on.We have our disciplinary code stuck up in the Factory and Warehouse.Whenever we have hearings,the guys on the floor generally know the outcome before the hearing has started.It has taken some time but being fair and consistent has certainly paid off for us.It did mean getting rid of some good people.

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Citizen X (17-Feb-16)

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## HR Solutions

Some people that have been too long in a company become stagnant and complacent and do not change with the times.  She certainly is out of line, but you need to ask yourself is she good at her job and can you perhaps help her or guide her or train her to your way of thinking.  Perhaps the previous owner had a more hard arsed approach, which really doesn't work too well in todays business. I would definitely give her a warning and instruct her to change her attitude - she has got to fit in with your way of running a business and treating people.  If she doesn't change or doesn't want to, then you know your answer.

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## Entropy Group

> Seems I always have labour related issues...
> 
> I have this lady that has been working with the company for about 10 years and with us for about 5 (since we purchased the business) She is a bit of a hard-ass which you need to be in the motor industry, ordering guys around. I've had some complaints of bad attitude before but I attributed it to her no-nonsense approach, and compliments were more forthcoming than complaints. Often it would just be her wording to a customer for example: "Sir, you'll have to wait your turn for wheel alignment" instead of "Sir would you mind waiting a bit for wheel alignment?, I do have a few cars booked before you"
> 
> Yesterday things came to a head as I was doing some admin in the office I was called to the floor. I came to the reception counter to find her and a customer in a exchange of word in the realm of "F__k you" and "Jou ma se p__s" I tried to calm the situation, but her and this customer was like fire and petrol. While I was talking to the customer. My sales lady had phoned the police because the customer had threatened to give her "a m__rse klap" At one stage I told her to go into the office, so I can get the customer alone, but in the heat she was out there and back 2 seconds later.
> 
> How do I handle this? Do I give her a final written warning for being rude to a customer? Do I charge her at a formal hearing chaired by the RMI for i) Being rude to a customer, and ii) Not being competent for her position, and iii) Insubordination and suggest she either be dismissed or be demoted to admin lady? Do I give her a final written warning and force her to go for training in order to equip her better to handle such situations and communicate better to customers?


My concern here is that a lot of cowboy shoot-from-the-hip advice is rolling out here. Every disciplinary issue needs to be dealt with, yes! Gross misconduct as described is a dismissable offense, yes! You cannot, however,  legally "decide" to dismiss someone, or give them a final written warning. Every disciplinary process needs to be substantively and procedurally correct. The elements I agreed to with a"yes" are substantive matters. However, procedural fairness demands a fair participative hearing (ideally with an independent chairperson, for your own protection) where the respondent has an opportunity to state a case, call witnesses, challenge allegations, be represented and have mitigating factors considered. Once an independent chairperson has found the respondent guilty, they would generally recommend an appropriate sanction, and then the decision to act accordingly can be made. Stay calm, control emotions and deal with disciplinary matters professionally, because the law protects you and the respondent alike.

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## Entropy Group

My concern here is that a lot of cowboy shoot-from-the-hip advice is rolling out here. Every disciplinary issue needs to be dealt with, yes! Gross misconduct as described is a dismissable offense, yes! You cannot, however,  legally "decide" to dismiss someone, or give them a final written warning. Every disciplinary process needs to be substantively and procedurally correct. The elements I agreed to with a"yes" are substantive matters. However, procedural fairness demands a fair participative hearing (ideally with an independent chairperson, for your own protection) where the respondent has an opportunity to state a case, call witnesses, challenge allegations, be represented and have mitigating factors considered. Once an independent chairperson has found the respondent guilty, they would generally recommend an appropriate sanction, and then the decision to act accordingly can be made. Stay calm, control emotions and deal with disciplinary matters professionally, because the law protects you and the respondent alike.

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## cindyreuben

Hi

Do you have a disciplinary code in place? Are the employees aware of the disciplinary code? I agree absolutely with Entropy Group here - you must be able to prove both procedural and substantive fairness in any disciplinary process.  Any knee jerk reaction will probably be the wrong one. If you have an HR department - escalate it to them.

Good luck!

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## HR Solutions

> My concern here is that a lot of cowboy shoot-from-the-hip advice is rolling out here


No ..... it is everyones past experience !! There are a lot of business owners on this forum !! Take their advice it is NOT cowboys shooting from the hip !!!!!

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## Entropy Group

Ignore that bit if you don't like it. The rest of my advice is sound. You cannot decide to give someone a warning, a final written warning or dismissal, without fair procedure. HR 101.

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## bones

is it just me or do i see a lot of technical 
advice that feels  a bit pushed 

granted not all of us are experts in labor 
law but surly not every single transgression 
needs a case manager and lawyer to 
handle it? 

if that is the case then business owners 
must consider other means to protect them 
selves may higher staff indirectly

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## Justloadit

LRA today is a minefield. 
There is even a procedure to follow to hire someone. 
Simply hiring a family member to fill in a position can land you in a position of incorrectly followed procedure,  if a potential candidate feels that you have proceeded incorrectly.

THE LRA has changed so much, that it even includes small business. This is the reason that it is a difficult place to be in with staff.


I suggest that any process or procedure which may land in an area of a  possible or dismissal should use the services of a professional to ensure that it does follow procedure. Unfortunately, these professionals cost money, and sometimes small business may attempt to go on their own and find themselves in deep financial position because of incorrect procedure.

Make no mistake, other countries, are probably more stringent in labour laws.

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## bones

> LRA today is a minefield. 
> There is even a procedure to follow to hire someone. 
> Simply hiring a family member to fill in a position can land you in a position of incorrectly followed procedure,  if a potential candidate feels that you have proceeded incorrectly.
> 
> THE LRA has changed so much, that it even includes small business. This is the reason that it is a difficult place to be in with staff.
> 
> 
> I suggest that any process or procedure which may land in an area of a  possible or dismissal should use the services of a professional to ensure that it does follow procedure. Unfortunately, these professionals cost money, and sometimes small business may attempt to go on their own and find themselves in deep financial position because of incorrect procedure.
> 
> Make no mistake, other countries, are probably more stringent in labour laws.


if i am ever big enough i will not bother 
i will get a broker to handle the staff 
i wouldnt bother with permanent staff

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## Greig Whitton

> if i am ever big enough i will not bother 
> i will get a broker to handle the staff 
> i wouldnt bother with permanent staff


Doesn't matter whether they are permanent or not. The Labour Relations Act was recently amended to regulate non-permanent employees (including workers contracted via a labour broker).

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## HR Solutions

> Doesn't matter whether they are permanent or not. The Labour Relations Act was recently amended to regulate non-permanent employees (including workers contracted via a labour broker).


Yes, but when a contract is over you cancel cancel the labour brokers staff. You can the r hire for a new "contract" period.

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## Justloadit

> Yes, but when a contract is over you cancel cancel the labour brokers staff. You can the r hire for a new "contract" period.


Not so easy, if the contract period exceeds 3 months, then they are automatically permanent, and require that you then retrench, with all the things that go with it.

If you make the contract period less, you can extend the contract, but if the period of employment is greater than 3 months, then retrenchment.

Many loop holes have been closed by the LRA.

If you trade in a specific industry, you are obliged by law to join the specific department. Eg if you use copper and lead, then you are required to join the Metals Industry Benefit Fund - MIBFA, if it is automotive, then you need to join Motor industry benefit fund - MIGFA, and abide by their rules.Etc

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## bones

> Doesn't matter whether they are permanent or not. The Labour Relations Act was recently amended to regulate non-permanent employees (including workers contracted via a labour broker).


i actually know the labor relations act well 
enough and yes amendments where made a
few of them  

outsourcing Labor is the way to go then i 
would do that because in the end labor 
relations and disputes are no longer a 
problem so i would think twice before 
cornering people to much i would work 
on a month to month base and get new 
people in every month 

it will be a pain in he behind but what 
else cane you do

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## Entropy Group

"seek professional help with anything and everything never take advice from me" your most valuable statement yet.

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## Hannes Botha

First and second warnings I give myself. As soon as it becomes dismiss-able, I contact the RMI. In other words serious misconduct, or after a final written warning.

Re: Labour brokers: It has got it's advantages with regards to leave issues, seasonal business, or if you simply don't like a guy, have him replaced. Before I had worked at a plastic plant. National group with about 30 factories. One of the directors was having a bad day, so when one of the guys messed up, he walked up to him, grabbed him (and I mean dug his nails into) his cheeks and headbutted him. On his way out the plant he said to the Labour broker "If you want to keep your business, you make this go away"

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## bones

> "seek professional help with anything and everything never take advice from me" your most valuable statement yet.


since you wish to attack me so openly 
you need to also understand that other 
people are not in the mood to fight or 
have fights with you it is not about win 
or lose it is about being professional so
you can make a choice today 

if you dislike the idea of outsourcing 
then dont bully people into a corner

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## bones

> First and second warnings I give myself. As soon as it becomes dismiss-able, I contact the RMI. In other words serious misconduct, or after a final written warning.
> 
> Re: Labour brokers: It has got it's advantages with regards to leave issues, seasonal business, or if you simply don't like a guy, have him replaced. Before I had worked at a plastic plant. National group with about 30 factories. One of the directors was having a bad day, so when one of the guys messed up, he walked up to him, grabbed him (and I mean dug his nails into) his cheeks and headbutted him. On his way out the plant he said to the Labour broker "If you want to keep your business, you make this go away"


removing the rights of the people is 
in bad taste and must not be done 
however a coin has 2 sides 

secondly if you saw an assault on a 
worker why didnt you report it to 
the ccma or even the police 

but you know it is not easy to do 
that so dont attack people all of 
us have stories like this all of us 
are trying to do the right thing 
there is no need for attitude

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## adrianh

I will never employ staff on a permanent basis again. The best was is to work with people as fixed term contractors or via labour brokers. The LRA has made it near impossible to get rid of bad staff. Although the LRA tries to protect the employees rights it does so to the detriment of the employer.

It is mind boggling how staff f*ck businesses up. A friend of mine has a ventilation company that manufactures and installs ducting systems. They kept on having problems with cost of materials per job, especially aluminum profiles. He put cameras in the workshop and soon saw what was happening. The f*ckers would pick twice as many profiles as they need. They would then chop the excess profiles up into short sections and carry them off in their rucksacks. The profiles are then sold for scrap metal.

He now has a cameras all over his premises and he offers substantial rewards for whistle-blowers.

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## Hannes Botha

> secondly if you saw an assault on a 
> worker why didnt you report it to 
> the ccma or even the police


Because of I have a allergic reaction to unemployment and hunger...

Sorry, I might be just about to be stoned...but I think it's because of all these rights that we are sitting where we are right now. It's so hard to fire somebody because of rights, and because it's so difficult, people don't go the extra mile to prove they want a job. They do what is required and no more, and if they can do less and get paid more by striking, even better....it is evident by the fact that we have no loadshedding anymore, due to companies closing down. Cape Town Rag trade has just about died thanks to Unions demanding more and more money. So now it is cheaper to import from China, where the jobmarket is such that they sleep next to their workstation...and our people sleep on the streets...

This is all great unless Nene gets fired and the economy crumbles...we buy in Rands not Dollars...but we buy raw material in dollars...so all prices go up...

So which are the worst of these two evils: Paying three guys R10/hour and feeding three families or paying one guy R30/hour and letting two families go hungry?

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## Justloadit

There is no logical thought processes when labour and the unions are involved.
It is always one sided towards the employees.
This was great when large parts of the population were employed by the large corporates, but unions and labour have made sure that they were able to cripple the corporates. This in turn has led to employee shedding, or voluntary retirement, or simply retrenchment.

The large base of employees working for corporates have reduced dramatically, and now are looking for work at the smaller industries,  and they are trying to create the same havoc. The main problem here is that the numbers are small, so going on strike simply means they are out of employment very quickly.

The only ones with large amount of employees are government and parastatals, but they are also now feeling the pinch, because there is no money for the excess and wastage anymore.

Soon they will be on the streets looking for employment, or start their own businesses and get the same medicine they handed out, which is no longer palatable when they have to pay from their own pocket.

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## adrianh

> Because of I have a allergic reaction to unemployment and hunger...


Good one!

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## bones

> Because of I have a allergic reaction to unemployment and hunger...


it is called doing the right thing but people 
dont do that anymore because they are 
afraid and i get it 

but now knowing what you know would 
you say unions act to harshly or is there 
actions justified at times not all the time 
but sometimes 

in my opinion bad employers gets away 
with really bad stuff and good employers 
get to pay the price 

so what do you do bite the bullet or help 
bad people to get away with stuff that is 
the choice and because of it negotiations
broke down

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## Entropy Group

I apologise if that statement offended you. It was offered tongue in check, as I was convinced the tone of you bottom line was.

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bones (11-Mar-16)

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## bones

> I apologise if that statement offended you. It was offered tongue in check, as I was convinced the tone of you bottom line was.


i do come across as a first class 
prick but that is because like 
you i had to make choices all 
is cool i also am a prick and 
sorry for that but thanks for 
sticking around you can do a 
lot of good here

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Entropy Group (14-Mar-16)

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## HR Solutions

Bones - it is very difficult reading some of your posts sometimes without fullstops and capital letters .........

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## bones

> Bones - it is very difficult reading some of your posts sometimes without fullstops and capital letters .........


yea my tablet is not so wonderful 
so i try to keep things to the point 
sorry about that figure where all the 
punctuation things hide and try 
to use them

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