# Interest group forums > Electrical Contracting Industry Forum >  Installation of 220V downlights

## Oblivious

Hello

Does anybody know whether there is anything wrong with the following picture?? Or is the wiring correct. It has been declined for a COC.

Thanks

Hans

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## NTS2011

Hi Oblivious,this is what is called exposed wiring.You can either put the connections in a joint box or use 5A Socket Outlets.Can't really see the wire size,but you should be safe with 1,5mm on 220V downlighters provided your distance is not very long.

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## AndyD

Hi Oblivious and welcome to TFSA.

You'll probably get more attention if you start a new thread in future.
The picture clearly shows PVC insulated cables that are closer than 100mm to the 50w halogen dichroic lamp and directly above it. This is contrary to the 0142 regs and would be sufficient for it to fail a COC inspection. You could workaround this if LED lamps were in the fittings (or even CFL), however, the exposed wiring as already suggested could also be the cause for it not passing muster.
The cable sizes and the actual terminations look fine to me.

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## murdock

andy i do believe if the 100 mm clause had to be enforced correctly i could safely say 90 % of downlights in durban would be illegal....and a huge majoity of COC issued would have to be withdrawn.


i believe the only problem with that light is the cover missing...so long as the standard test finger cannot touch any live wires...

i believe there should have been a junction box with one wire feeding the light and with heat resistant wire or sleeved with asbestos tape...but unfortunately the reality that would be regarded as over doing it.

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## Oblivious

HI. Thanks all for your valuable input. I will inform you later of the outcome. Great week to you.

Oblivious

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## Oblivious

Another question, if I may..... I assume this is very stupid.  Can I not tape it shut with some sort of special tape? I see murdock mentions something about tape. Chaw

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## Sparks

Hi, you hit the nail on the head Andy. The exposed conductors are a small issue here because they cannot be made contact with during the normal use of the lights. The main reason would be the lack of heat resistant wire on the fitting. I must ask here though, is it 100mm or 200mm?

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## Dave A

May I draw attention to the *two* lines of surfex flat twin & earth in the picture... There's more going on than just a light connection point here.

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## AndyD

> andy i do believe if the 100 mm clause had to be enforced correctly i could safely say 90 % of downlights in durban would be illegal....and a huge majoity of COC issued would have to be withdrawn.
> i believe the only problem with that light is the cover missing...so long as the standard test finger cannot touch any live wires...
> 
> i believe there should have been a junction box with one wire feeding the light and with heat resistant wire or sleeved with asbestos tape...but unfortunately the reality that would be regarded as over doing it.


Well I disagree one one point you make but agree with another. I think the 100mm clause (which might turn out to be a 200mm clause) is important. The operating temperature of these lamps is ridiculously high and can deteriorate the pvc insulation very quickly, in a matter of hours in fact. I can see very good reason for the clause and I could see a significantly increased fire risk if it were ignored. Arguably, this risk may be even higher for the ELV 12volt lamps but that's a discussion for another day, it still holds true for the 220volt version as well.
I do agree that the termination box shown isn't adequate for two FT&e cables as well as the lamp holder wiring. There's only one cable anchor clamp for a start and it would be impossible to refit the lid no matter how tidy your terminations are. It also clearly breaches the 100mm rule so I'm hoping it isn't an SABS approved fitting 





> Hi, you hit the nail on the head Andy. The exposed conductors are a small issue here because they cannot be made contact with during the normal use of the lights. The main reason would be the lack of heat resistant wire on the fitting. I must ask here though, is it 100mm or 200mm?


Hi Sparks,
I'm not 100% familiar with the 0142 rules, I refer to them for design purposes but don't do any kind of domestic work/installations or inspections. I'm not sure if you're being polite knowing that it is 200mm distance required or not :-) I'll dig out my copy of the regs later and post back to clarify.  




> May I draw attention to the *two* lines of surfex flat twin & earth in the picture... There's more going on than just a light connection point here.


I think the two FT+e cables is a normal layout if there's more than one light in the circuit and the particular light we're looking at isn't the last one. I'm assuming the third thinner cable is the wiring going to the ceramic lamp holder and it's probably glassfibre sleeved and the wiring possibly teflon insulated.

PS A roll of fibreglass tape is around R100.00, taping the terminations closed on several fittings won't be a cheap option.

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## murdock

it just looks like 2 twin+e  connecting into the box and the other wire is the feed to the lamp holder...which should be heat resistant wire.

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## Dave A

> it just looks like 2 twin+e  connecting into the box


Aah. So the box is open just for the photo then....  :Cool: 




> Installation of 22V downlights


Oblivious, is that meant to be 220V?
Or maybe I'm just being really doff tonight  :Confused:

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## murdock

dave such quick thinking for so late at night...imagine how sharp you must be during the day...teehee

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## Oblivious

HI. Once again, thanks for all the input. 

The housing is 240V yes. Seems the original electrician did his own thing and gave a COC as well....

End of the day the current electrician is going to install 12V lights and transformers. They say it is much easier and safer. My house is 15 months old. Obviously it was given a COC then but suddenly now there is about R3500 work that needs to be done. I tried getting hold of the previous electrician but the bank and municipal electricity department "cannot obtain" the COC for me. The builder moved to Durbs, very good builder though. Just wish I could get the details of the original electrician (draadtrekker). I will still endeavour to get hold of that guy and report him. 

Anyway, I am out.

All of the best guys.

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## 123

_Page 253: 7.9.3.3.1.3 At least 200 mm of the conductors leading from an ELV lamp
holder shall be 180 C (class H) flexible conductors such as siliconrubber-
insulated conductors. The lamp holder shall also be suitable for an
operating temperature of at least 180 C.

Page 254: 7.9.3.3.1.4 The ELV power source shall not be installed above the lamp
or within 200 mm from the lamp to any side unless a heat barrier is
installed between the lamp and the power source._

Clearly the above only applies to *ELV*_ (7.9.1.1 The particular requirements in this subclause apply to extra low voltage lighting installations supplied from sources with a maximum rated voltage of 50 V a.c. or 120 V d.c.)_ lighting installations? 220V lighting installations is not ELV? So the above reg cannot be applied to it?

Another reference by the sans code: 

_This part of SANS 10142 includes certain provisions which are for
information and guidance only. These provisions do not use the word "shall"
and they can be found in the text, in the notes and in the informative
annexes. Except in tables, notes are always for information only._

_6.14.3.6 The connections between circuit conductors and luminaire
conductors shall
a) allow enough slack immediately behind the base of the luminaire for
easy handling, and
b) in the case of a pre-wired luminaire, be made using a connector._

*NOTE:* _PVC insulated conductors should not be used where the temperature of the
conductor could exceed 70 C, unless the conductors are shielded from heat
sources._

The reference made by the code is a "_note"_ only.

Unless an _accurate_ temperature measurement was done along the _complete_ conductor, and the temperature exceeded 70 C at any point, the conductor *should* be protected against such exposed heat for such points. (Again, the word (for a coc), is should, and not shall.)

However, the example and reasons provided for the invalidation of the said CoC could _not be as a result_ of the _ above reasons._

Or am i missing something again? :Confused:

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## AndyD

^^^ So, you're saying you would pass that luminaire for COC purposes as it's shown in the photo???

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## 123

> ^^^ So, you're saying you would pass that luminaire for COC purposes as it's shown in the photo???


YES. The LUMINAIRE would pass by means of its SABS approval. It is not the purpose of the CoC to pass Luminaires. It is, actually, EXCLUDED on the CoC itself: See Note 3 on CoC form page 2.

And Yes, I would sign a CoC based on the photo for that specific issue. Unless there is some hidden/other issues not stated in this forum. The temperature of the exposed part of the cable (70C) has no influence re the CoC according to the law. The code states: It "should", and not it "shall". So, if push comes to shove, any reasonable judge must come to such logical conclusion if, ever, such a case might end up in court.

And, fiy, a 230V 60W incandescent lamp (Ready Light), or a 100w bulkhead bottle, generates far more heat (Flir i60) than a 50 watt gu10 downlight lamp. But still, both the aforementioned is legally wired with pvc copper stranded wire, right into the said lamp, into the connectors, exposed to 84.5 C (Average: Flir System i60), in ALL OF THE INSTALLATIONS In SA.

Houston, ......

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## murdock

and there is a cover fitted...unless the person regards the entire roof space as a junction box....as mentioned in other debates...which i dont agree with...becuase there are other people and services in the roof space so anyone can climb into the roof and work...if the roof space is inaccessable thats a whole different ball game.

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## 123

_[Murdock said:   ........ so anyone can climb into the roof and work....]_  

Yes, so true. Anyone can climb into the roof and work.....but....still...they would all need a TOOL to get into the roof, except if they can fly, levitate, or lie.

Anyway, who's all going to the Buff? (Bike Rally in Mosselbay?)

Poison Rally was a KILLER :-)   ⌂⌂⌂⌂   ††††

hehe....

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## Dave A

> Houston, ......


You said it. I'm watching this thread with great interest. There's a small matter of _length of downlighter tails_ vs _exposed wiring_ floating around at the back of my mind at the moment as I'm reading this.

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## 123

> There's a small matter of _length of downlighter tails_ vs _exposed wiring_ floating around at the back of my mind at the moment as I'm reading this.


*??*

Pse Elaborate: Me :Confused:

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## NTS2011



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## Dave A

> There's a small matter of _length of downlighter tails_ vs _exposed wiring_ floating around at the back of my mind at the moment as I'm reading this.





> *??*
> 
> Pse Elaborate: Me


Cancel that. It's been the length of mains side *transformer* tails that we've found as a pretty common issue on new installations.

Sorry for the confusion.

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## murdock

light points and open/exposed wires...this is another who thread on its own?

connecting 2 pieces of twin&e into the primary side of the transfomer?

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## Dave A

Comments anyone?

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## murdock

better than most i see on a daily basis...i have just finished a...what started out as a little job just to fit 3 lights and connect an ectractor fan....turned into a total rewire of the kitchen...and as the customer always says....but i dont understand it has worked for years....the kitchen was done years ago and the kitchen people got their electrician to wire all the lights and plugs.

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## Sparks

Aaaaah... the things we see.... :Wink:

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## phillip

Is this legal?  12v downlight fitting with 220v globe, 220v porcelin globe holder with 150mm heat resistant leads connected to 16A connector strips.  My supply is 220v, 1mm t&e connected to the connector block. Leads are +- 150mm away from light fitting. Also:  Draw box in roof, leads going to lights and supply from D/B. Lead going down to 2 way switching, using 1mm t&e. If earth is insulated on both ends, can it be used as a life feed?

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## AndyD

> Is this legal?  12v downlight fitting with 220v globe,


 I'm confused, if it has a 220v globe then it's a 220v downlight. Why do you say it's a 12v downlight fitting?




> Lead going down to 2 way switching, using 1mm t&e. If earth is insulated on both ends, can it be used as a life feed?


 *This is illegal on more than one account. Do not* use the earth wire of any cable as a live, switched live or a neutral. If somebody gets injured whilst working on or using this installation because the regulations have not been followed you might well find yourself in court on a culpable homicide charge.

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## bergie

i see a lot of 12 volt fittings used with 230 volt lamps .it doesnt have the built in lamp holder. some electricians earth the 12 volt fitting and use the porcelain 230 volt lamp holder. the connection of the leads is in a box,but the leads are still exposed the same as the 12 volt lampholder.therefore i fail it anyway.
you can buy this contraption that fits on to the 12 volt fitting with a built in lampholder and connection box.
as andy says using the earth wire as a live conductor is highly dangerous and illegal.

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## Sparks

When I find an earth wire being used as a return my prices double for "danger-pay", (what else is wired like that?). I show the owner exactly what the problem is and scare all the crap out of them with a very detailed descripting of how their whole family could be wiped out trying to help the grandchild being electrocuted. By the time I am done with them they rather sit in the dark, until I can do the repairs, than touch a light switch.

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## murdock

an earth wire on a 1 mm t&e is smaller than 1mm square and therefore cannot be connected to a 10 amp circuit breakers...besides all the other issues

the reality of this problem is it happens so it is always advisable to check...as is the black used as a return from a switch.

another favourite is the green of cabtyre used as the return for daynight switches.

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## AndyD

> another favourite is the green of cabtyre used as the return for daynight switches.


Would this be illegal if the green was sleeved another colour on both ends with heat shrink and the daylight sensor was class 2 insulation and didn't require an earth or CPC?

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## Justloadit

> Would this be illegal if the green was sleeved another colour on both ends with heat shrink and the daylight sensor was class 2 insulation and didn't require an earth or CPC?


What if the cable was sliced in the middle somewhere far from the marked ends?
It would then be dangerous anyway.

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## bergie

it is illegal to use cabtyre for a stationary appliance ,so it doesnt really matter. regarding the twin +earth ,using the black as the return,its not legal as the wire is supposed to be taped or sleeved its full length,which is impossible.so i still install it like that ,and pass it if i find it like that.(untill they manufacture red+white twin+earth)for interests sake i have found cable installed for lights that looked like twin+earth but its red,white +blue+earth.never seen it for sale though.

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## Justloadit

> i have found cable installed for lights that looked like twin+earth but its red,white +blue+earth.never seen it for sale though.


This is a 3 phase cable with earth, or what they call a 3 wire cable, L1, L2 and L3 and earth. Usually used for balanced 3 phase loads  or delta connected electric motors.

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## bergie

i actually meant i have never seen that specific cable before.it looks exactly like twin+earth from the outside. its flat has no aluminium sheath and comes in 1mm.

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## AndyD

Is it a stranded or solid core conductor?

There used to be a flat PVC 3 core and earth cable used in the UK that was mostly between 2-way switches but the conductors were solid insulated in Grey Black and Brown if I remember rightly. The earth was bare.

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## bergie

solid,insulated,with bare earth.sound like the cable you are describing andy,but with red,white+blue .handy for 2 way switches and 2 lever switches up to a connection box.theres a few complexes in table view wired with it.

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## AndyD

I did a bit of digging and it appears they changed the standard colours of this cable to red, white and blue a few years ago. I see a few UK suppliers who advertise this cable but I've never seen it here. I've only found it available in 1mm sq as well.

I agree it would be handy for lighting and daylight sensors etc.

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## murdock

it is flat but not just twin and and earth it is 3 core +earth..designed and used in low cost housing for switches...live  and 2 returns...yellow and blue...problem is you only get it in 1 mm so in a house which has 15 amp circuit breakers for lights it would be under sized.

cabtyre is regarded as a flexible cord if the cores are leass than 0.5 mm and cannot be used in a fixed installation...

i think its time to go back to the instruction manual...if i recall the cable only has to be indentified at each end...but i will refer to the sans greeny

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## bergie

i went back to the green book as well ,just to make sure.
flexible cord:each strand is less than 0,31mm diameter (not area) and each conductor does not exceed 4mm square
flexible cable:cable of which the diameter of the strands do not exceed 0,51mm the conductor must exceed 4mm square.

6.1.11 flexible cords should not be used in an installation,except for moving parts,single cores in conduits,luminaires and authorized wiring sytems
my green book is a bit old so correct me if there have been any updates.

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## Sparks

The trip & earth is freely available in PE. It is also available in 1.5mm. Very usefull at times.

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## murdock

> i went back to the green book as well ,just to make sure.
> flexible cord:each strand is less than 0,31mm diameter (not area) and each conductor does not exceed 4mm square
> flexible cable:cable of which the diameter of the strands do not exceed 0,51mm the conductor must exceed 4mm square.
> 
> 6.1.11 flexible cords should not be used in an installation,except for moving parts,single cores in conduits,luminaires and authorized wiring sytems
> my green book is a bit old so correct me if there have been any updates.


now thats what i like to see is the fellas backing up the answer with a quote from the sans greeny...my answer was not correct ...a shot in the dark.

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## SparkyScott

So you can get 3 core and earth?

Its used in the uk for 2 way or intermediate switches also for linking smoke detectors,you can get it in 1.0mm or 1.5mm handy to have.

Speaking about joint boxs,whats the best to use?as i miss the 5A,15A,30A and ashley JB we use to use,using metal boxs or conduit boxs is not the best.

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## AndyD

Not sure exactly what you're looking for but maybe the Pratley range will help?

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## SparkyScott

This is the joint box i use to use for lighting joints good to work with and tidy once finished.
Thanks for that link Andy.

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## AndyD

Maybe these will work then? 
http://www.myvirtualpaper.com/doc/ac...ypenew.php#368
You can browse a few pages either side of the one linked for other options.

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## johnnymes

Hi Guys,
I found this thread on google and i have used some of the advice given here.

I am renovating my first house and one of the projects I decided to do is install new downlights everywhere, this I now realized is not as easy as 123 because of all the safety considerations.

Electricians have quoted between R30k and R40k to install about 55 of these lights, after seeing the quality of work they (the electrician's labourers) have done at my parents house and my house, i'm not prepared to let these guys destroy my roof again.

When the COC certificate was done just before I purchased the house, the "inspector" damaged the alarm system's wiring to the point where I decided to rip the whole system out of the roof. The same guy installed the geyser a few months before, his labourers cut the brandering under the roof tiles and never re-in forced it again, so the tiles were supported by lose wood, this fell in a few months ago causing a massive leak. Not to mention that the wiring connections to the geyser burned out and I had to repair this just a year after it was installed.


Yesterday I started with my bathroom's down lights, I built a junction box, and took a photo.

Do you guys think this is the right way to do it, and will this pass the standards?


I also need to hook this new junction box into the existing conduit fitting, what would you guys recommend I do there?

J.

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## ians

This is an interesting thread, i noticed mention of 12/230 volt downlights, 100 /200mm clearance etc.

Here is a picture of a 12/230 volt downlighter with a sans 60598-1-1999 approval number.

What i find rather interesting is that the heat resistant wire is 110 mm long, however the way the metal bracket secures onto the fitting makes the celarance between the lamp and the wiring about 70mm as you can see in the picture and provided the twin+e is pulled away fro the fitting could even touch the lamp. The right way to install this fitting would be to bend the plate so that the connection box is away from the lamp

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## Sparks

What I would like to know is the result of an earth continuity test on the fitting.

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## Sparks

Your junction box looks fine, only problem I have, and I am surely the only one in the country, is that you are using 3Amp connectors, but believe me no-one will fault you on that. I have a personal thing about connecting blocks. Now you just need to tackle the second photo.

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## ians

You wouldnt need a good earth continuity reading on the actual fitting, only the front of the lamp is touching it. If the brackets comes loose and falls off the fitting, it is no big deal either, because you will note in the pic there is a good earth connection on the metal bracket at which point the wiring is connected in a junction box.

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## Didditmiself

Murdock, asbestos tape? Can you still get anything asbestos, especially tape? I thought that it's a banned substance because it's proven to cause asbestosis (a form of cancer of the lungs).

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## johnnymes

I am using the exact same fitting from ARB,  i was also thinking of bending it away from the bracket,as opposed to it lying on the ceiling next to the hole.
In the default configuration that box would be fried.

J.




> This is an interesting thread, i noticed mention of 12/230 volt downlights, 100 /200mm clearance etc.
> 
> Here is a picture of a 12/230 volt downlighter with a sans 60598-1-1999 approval number.
> 
> What i find rather interesting is that the heat resistant wire is 110 mm long, however the way the metal bracket secures onto the fitting makes the celarance between the lamp and the wiring about 70mm as you can see in the picture and provided the twin+e is pulled away fro the fitting could even touch the lamp. The right way to install this fitting would be to bend the plate so that the connection box is away from the lamp

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## johnnymes

Thank you Sparks.

What kind of connector block would you have used in this scenario, i am finding that the bigger ones will limit the number of downlighters that can feed from the junction box because they cant fit in as neatly.

For the supply problem I am thinking of drilling a hole into a round conduit junction cover and feeding it through there...
This is a tricky situation, i can always re-build the PVC pipes but i see there's long wires running continuously through all of them, this means I will have to rejoin them somehow, and that could lead to a single pvc conduit junction box being too small for all of the wires..

J.




> Your junction box looks fine, only problem I have, and I am surely the only one in the country, is that you are using 3Amp connectors, but believe me no-one will fault you on that. I have a personal thing about connecting blocks. Now you just need to tackle the second photo.

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## Leecatt

> Hello
> 
> Does anybody know whether there is anything wrong with the following picture?? Or is the wiring correct. It has been declined for a COC.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Hans


The entry box on the light is intended for one cable entry and if it is connected as such, and the lid fitted, that would be sufficient.
However there are two cables entering the entry box and it now has to be considered as a connection box.
_6.3.7.3 Any armouring or sheathing shall be terminated in or on
equipment_
The correct way of installing this type of lighting is to run one cable along the line of lights, interrupt the cable at each light with a 3 way box and run an additional cable from the 3 way box to the light. A four way box may also be used in a similar fashion
The distance of the cable from the globe is irrelevant in 220 volt fitting as the connector is also plastic and is sufficiently situated a safe distance from the globe. As long as the connected cable runs directly away from the fitting.
In a 12volt light fitting situation there is a required distance that the transformer needs to be from the globe because of the combined heat of both pieces of equipment.

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## bergie

hi jonnymes your connection box looks good. just connect another surfix to the round box using a dome cover.it has a 20mm threaded hole in it. the connector blocks look like 16 amp. look on the back to see the rating.

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## johnnymes

> hi jonnymes your connection box looks good. just connect another surfix to the round box using a dome cover.it has a 20mm threaded hole in it. the connector blocks look like 16 amp. look on the back to see the rating.


I will be doing exactly this  :Smile:

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## Leecatt

> I will be doing exactly this


Please be advised that it is illegal for any persons who is not a registered electrical contractor with the department of labour, to attempt any repair or installation work upon an electrical installation. Any subsequent damage to the installation or property will be the the responsibility of the person who has transgressed the law and your insurance company will most probably waiver their liability to any claims...just saying :Roll Eyes (Sarcastic):

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## johnnymes

> Please be advised that it is illegal for any persons who is not a registered electrical contractor with the department of labour, to attempt any repair or installation work upon an electrical installation. Any subsequent damage to the installation or property will be the the responsibility of the person who has transgressed the law and your insurance company will most probably waiver their liability to any claims...just saying


Well aware of this fact. :Smile: 

I am doing most of the work myself because I just don't trust most electrical contractors anymore, and even if I use them, it will mean i have to supervise the contractor's self trained off the street laborer inside my roof to make sure I really get what im paying for. 

When I am finished with my renovation, i am getting a trusted professional electrician in to do the CoC, and move my DB board.

J.

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## Sparks

What I referred to was the way the bracket is hooked inside the spring. If the fitting is turned around you will see where the bracket should slot in. Something to get some paint off then slide the bracket in position and you have the required earth continuity. The bracket is then also securely mounted and if bent a bit increases the distance of the connecting block from the lamp. The manufacturers are not concerned with meeting the regs as they acquire SANS approval irrespective.

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## Leecatt

> Well aware of this fact.
> 
> I am doing most of the work myself because I just don't trust most electrical contractors anymore, and even if I use them, it will mean i have to supervise the contractor's self trained off the street laborer inside my roof to make sure I really get what im paying for. 
> 
> When I am finished with my renovation, i am getting a trusted professional electrician in to do the CoC, and move my DB board.
> 
> J.


To sign of an electrical certificate on work done by a non qualified person who did the work under no supervision is an illegal act.
Any electrician worth his salt would never consider doing such a thing as it may cost him his license.
Unfortunately in this industry that is not an option for you.
Your experience with electrical contractors has been dismal, perhaps you should stop using the types who use "self trained off the street laborer"
Contact your local Electrical Contractors Association Branch and get referred to a Qualified Electrician and if you have any comebacks then the ECA will deal with it on your behalf.
Alternatively contact the "trusted professional electrician" who you want to sign the COC and get him to do the entire job.

Attitudes such a this one annoy me, get the proper person in, pay him what he is worth for a proper job and then you will have no more problems, simple.

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## Didditmiself

if Jonnymes does his installation according to spec then surely it can simply be checked by a qualified electrician and if all is OK, sign it off and pay and let him go. To me it smacks of bureaucracy to make it illegal



> To sign of an electrical certificate on work done by a non qualified person who did the work under no supervision is an illegal act.
> Any electrician worth his salt would never consider doing such a thing as it may cost him his license.
> Unfortunately in this industry that is not an option for you.
> Your experience with electrical contractors has been dismal, perhaps you should stop using the types who use "self trained off the street laborer"
> Contact your local Electrical Contractors Association Branch and get referred to a Qualified Electrician and if you have any comebacks then the ECA will deal with it on your behalf.
> Alternatively contact the "trusted professional electrician" who you want to sign the COC and get him to do the entire job.
> 
> Attitudes such a this one annoy me, get the proper person in, pay him what he is worth for a proper job and then you will have no more problems, simple.

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## Leecatt

> What I would like to know is the result of an earth continuity test on the fitting.


Sparks I have agonised over this fitting for years. Despite much research i cannot get anybody to tell me why it is acceptable to use.
I have come to the conclusion however, that the round part in which the lamp is held is not a part of the lamp fitting and is classified simply as a positioning device.

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## Leecatt

Diddithimself. If a non qualified person attempts such a job then he is not in a position to know the spec in the first place, Its all very well coming onto a forum and asking questions but there is much more to it than what is posted here. Many electricians on this forum have endured a 5 year apprenticeship followed up by 20 or 30 years experience, not to mention the endless hours of night school to get the wiremans license just to be in a position to be able to do the job correctly by encompassing ALL the factors in the electrical installation. It is not bureaucracy but plain common sense that tells one; If you want a job done correctly then hire a professional who knows what he is doing, pay him what he is worth and have the satisfaction of knowing that your and your family are safe in your own home.
Point in question; Yesterday is was asked to come to a house here in Primrose. I stripped down one plug in the kitchen to find out why here was no earth on it. This is what I found.

The plug socket outlet, along with 4 others in the kitchen, was wired with 1.5mm flat twin and earth cable instead of the required 2.5mm cable.
They were all supplied from the oven stove isolator which is protected by a 35 amp circuit breaker, 1.5mm cable has a rating of 14.5 amps.
Now, because the earth had not been connected in the stove isolator, the earth leakage did not trip when required to protect the plug and the consumer.

To call this dangerous is an understatement, to call it attempted murder or at the very least potential culpable homicide, would be more appropriate

And this work was done by the builder who renovated the kitchen 6 years ago. The same guy who had seen it done over and over again until he thought that he could do it himself because he "knew the specs" and could save a few bucks.

So before you decide to do it yourself, or even worse "go the cheap route", think about the potential consequences of your actions and how much the lives of those around you are worth.
There is a reason why electricians have to be qualified.
There is a reason why electricians have to be registered 
There is a reason why we have to issue an electrical certificate on the work we do.
That reason my friend is YOUR SAFETY!

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## ians

I dont get what all the fuss is about, if you go to your local electrical wholesaler, the counter saleman will give you all the advise you need, what size cable to use, boxes, etc,  and sell you all the sans approved equipment you need, so why do you have to pay an "electrician" (all the way from zimbabwe, kenya) who charge a ridiculous price (anywhere from as low as R120 per team, with as many as 5 in a team) to come and mess up your electrical installation on your property, when you can do it yourself properly and get one of the many certified electricians willing to make a quick buck on the side knowing full well that there is no policing in the electrical industry in SA.

As for the insurance companies paying out, if you are a good customer they dont want to loose and have the right broker looking after you, chances are pretty good, you gona get paid out. They will increase your premium to cover for the loss, but hey, no free rides, or if you unlucky like me and say the wrong thing (truth) to the assessor you gona be repairing it yourself even if it was done by a certified electrician.

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## kyle.deon

guys just a quick question here.... can downlights be daisy chained? or do we need to use an inspection box and feed each light from there??

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## ians

Why not, and use rip cord it is much cheaper than twin+e, just make sure when you fill in your coc, that you dont write your name or ID number on the document.

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## Leecatt

> Why not, and use rip cord it is much cheaper than twin+e, just make sure when you fill in your coc, that you dont write your name or ID number on the document.


Dont joke, I have come across two houses where the xtensions, and one was a complete cottage, were wired in ripcord by some chap advertising his business on a tree

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## Didditmiself

Leecatt, thanks for the explanation. Wow, I am amazed that the family in Primrose have NOT yet had a tragedy with wiring like that!! I did say so long as one does the installation according to specifications, then it should be eligible for a COC. I did not say if one does a slapdash job without considering the safety aspect. But as you correctly say, you guys have trained for years in your field and obviously like my Engineering Qualification cost me big bucks yours cost you too and if everybody simply did the job himself, we would be unemployed.

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## Sparks

It was the same frustration with worthless contractors that led me to qualify in the first place. Today I make sure that when I go sleep I have made an installation safe for someone somewhere. I now have the knowledge and tools to ensure that the legal requirements have been met. At least you have taken your family's safety into consideration and asked questions Didditmiself, as Leecat pointed out, there are a lot of factors to consider and scary stuff out there. The salesman at the supplier is just that, a salesman, not an electrician. He also does not know where and how you intend to use the installation. If the suppliers are interested in anything other than money, why is it so difficult to get 4pole isolators. They should be kept in stock yet when I ask for one I am given a blank stare "no-one uses them" is the reason given why it has to be ordered.

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## ians

Unfortunately i am at a point where i am tired of banging my head, i cant think straight anymore, nor do i loose any sleep. At one stage i was also all for rules and regulations, but they keep changing so often, that i have lost interest. The electrical regulations have become like diets, one day chocolates are bad for you, the next day they are the best thing since sliced bread. Then you can bury a cable then you cant, then generators came along...need i say more. I am gona say this again, you cannot have rules and regulations unless you have a enforcement agency and  punishment for offenders.

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## johnnymes

Guys where can I start with getting qualified for a Wiremans, my employer is willing to pay for "upgrading" me under a company program to develop skills.

If it takes 7 years or even 16 years, i am willing to attend classes and write tests well into second half of this century if that is what it takes to get qualified.

I have more than enough experience with DC & power electronics to start with, and i've done alot of DC installations and communications installs,  i've spent too much time on sites helping professional electricians (with 3phase wiremans) sorting out the mess they've made, blowing up customer equipment, watching them struggle with their R50 test equipment, and i am too embarrassed to say what else i've seen these guys do.

Im not interested in becoming an electrician for the sake of making money or a living from it, i want this qualification to better my skills for starters, and maybe one day i'll do the tata bakkie thing and open an account at the local electrical wholesaler :Wink:

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## Leecatt

> Guys where can I start with getting qualified for a Wiremans, my employer is willing to pay for "upgrading" me under a company program to develop skills.
> 
> If it takes 7 years or even 16 years, i am willing to attend classes and write tests well into second half of this century if that is what it takes to get qualified.
> 
> I have more than enough experience with DC & power electronics to start with, and i've done alot of DC installations and communications installs,  i've spent too much time on sites helping professional electricians (with 3phase wiremans) sorting out the mess they've made, blowing up customer equipment, watching them struggle with their R50 test equipment, and i am too embarrassed to say what else i've seen these guys do.
> 
> Im not interested in becoming an electrician for the sake of making money or a living from it, i want this qualification to better my skills for starters, and maybe one day i'll do the tata bakkie thing and open an account at the local electrical wholesaler


I am not sure what the requirements are these days, if you call the Electrical Contractors Board on 011 392 0000 I am sure they will steer you in the right direction.
If memory serves me correctly, In 2001 the requirements for an installation Electrician were:

*A minimum of 3 years apprenticeship as an electrical apprentice.
Sit a trade test, pass and obtain a Trade Test certificate as an Electrician.
2 years experience working as an electrician after having obtained the Trade Test certificate (experience garnered prior to the qualification does not count)

6 months of college, I did night school, to learn the Electrical Rules and Regulations 10142-1.
Sit 2 exams on the above Regulations and pass both.

Apply to the Department of Labour for your wireman's license using all of the above qualifications.
Register with the Department of Labour yearly to retain the validity of the licence.
*
There is another qualification called an Electrical Tester but I dont know what that requires

After all that you may then feel like opening a business so you can begin to recoup some of the rewards for your efforts.

Just remember one thing, nobody ever opens a business to make friends or fly the moral flag.
You are in business to make money and provide a legitimate service, in that order.
The more legitimate and professional your service is, the more money you will make and there is nothing immoral about making money.

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## Sparks

> you cannot have rules and regulations unless you have a enforcement agency and  punishment for offenders.


Unfortunately that is the sad state of our country(no enforcement anymore) I am sure most would agree. Service is dependant on pride only which I am afraid has emigrated.

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## ians

Problem with pride, it doesnt pay the bill and when times get tough, need i say more.

The other problem, when times are good, there is no time to do things right.

I hear it at the electrical wholesalers, daily, how everyone does the job right, etc,etc, complaining about other peoples workmanship, unfortunately still being on the tools, i see the results of those same companies who drop labourers on site to carry out the work, what a joke. The only reason i am in the industry at this point in time is because it pays for my toys and equipment to set myself up in another industry.

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## JasonT

what if ferrels were used instead of connector block?

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## AndyD

Ferrules are great if you use the correct indent crimper. You can double insulate them with heatshrink. Obviously a ferrule is a permanent connection so if you think they may need to be removed periodically then maybe reconsider other options.

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## SparkyScott

Last week Friday I had down lighters to install,I used 5A connector strip and choc boxes nice and simple to install,this is in the UK

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## AndyD

Choc block type connectors are pretty rare nowadays in the UK, they mostly use Wago connectors.

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## SparkyScott

Wago's are brilliant they save so much time it's all I use now.

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## Leecatt

Revisiting this one.
Regulation 6.3.7.3 indicates that "Any sheathing or armouring shall be terminated in or on equipment"
In this picture the sheathing is not terminated in or on the equipment. The equipment is going to be terminated on the cores which is not allowed.

Regulation 6.4.1 says that the cable may not be run within 150mm of hot services. I assume that this includes the hot 220v Dichroic (sp?)lamp
If the lamp is an LED type which does not get as hot, then perhaps the 150mm requirement falls away?

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## GCE

Hi 
I agree with the above statements and further - 6.3.7.1 _shall be made in accordance with manufacturers instructions_ and 5.1 note 2 _Manufacturers instructions may contain more stringent requirements._

Having a look the other day at Aberdare cables Low Voltage Cable Range Brochure ed 4 - I noticed a note under T&E and Surfix  - Joints in wiring shall be in boxes only - Puts an end to the argument of allowing strip connectors in a roof space.

Copy and pasted below from the Brochure 
_ Installation Information
Properties
Copper conductors to SANS 1411 Part 1, PVC insulated to SANS 1411 Part 2, laid up with a bare copper earth-continuity-conductor
between them, UV stable PVC sheathed to SANS 1411 Part 2.
Complies with SANS 10142/2001“Code of Practice for the wiring of Premises” Section 6, Clause 6.3.6:
• Surface wiring • Under-plaster wiring • Roof access wiring • Wiring in hollowwalls
The cable shall not be buried direct in concrete or in screed. Joints in the wiring shall be in boxes only._

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## AndyD

To play devils advocate here I'd suggest only take manufacturers instructions from an official specification or data sheet or instruction sheet written for that specific product and/or supplied in the packaging with the product. I would class a brochure, a flyer or even a catalogue in many cases as sales and marketing material and as such I wouldn't refer to it for hard product data. 

I have a love/hate thing with manufacturers instructions. 

Many manufacturers supply instructions that aren't in grammatically correct English; if there's many typos or grammar mistakes or it's obviously been a half-assed translation job then you have to assume that anything written on there could be inaccurate or simply a typo.

Sometimes they try to cover numerous different models of the same product with one supplied instruction sheet, this often leads to confusion or blatant contradictions in the instructions. 

Manufacturers have a nasty habit of pitching their instructions at the DIY'er which leads to over reaching with their instructions specifying things that aren't relevant to their actual product or things they generally should have no right to be legislating on. They often try to give a step by step guide instead of assuming the installer is qualified and only needs guidance specific to that product, not guidance on how to do the job he's already qualified in or guidance on cherry-picked installation regulations he's already fluent with. 

Instructions also can be far too generic ie they're written by the manufacturer in China or Europe and not edited to make them relevant for this country. Even with instructions that come as a 100 plus page booklet are divided into language only, it's assumed that the 20 pages of the 'English' version will cover accurately and relevantly every country on the planet that speaks English.

Manufacturers have a habit of using their installation instructions as an excuse to advertise of generally showboat about how good their product is. They also have a tendancy to flood the document with rediculously obvious and unnecessary 'Safety Warnings' so you have to spend too much time combing through the drivel to actually find the relevant info. Often you'll find a 2 line snippet of crutial information hidden in the middle of 3 pages of detritus.

If manufacturers instructions must be followed according to the regs then are you going to obtain and read those instructions for all the fixed appliances, electrical accessories and other components of the installation to check they've been complied with before issuing a CoC?

Finally the availability of those instructions can be an issue. Often if you're not the original installer the only way you can get a copy of those instructions is by going onto the manufacturers technical portal, registering yourself with them for access then comb though thousands of data sheets to find the precise one for the product. This assumes it's not been discontinued in which case you go through the whole process again in the archived section for unsupported products. Often if the product is a rebranded Chinese item you'll never find who the original manufacturer actually is and even if you you do their website will only be in Manderin. If it's one of those 'knee jerk' imported products like those millions of generators that arrived her a few years ago or inverters for that matter...or reverse osmosis units or ph balancers that are appearing today in spectacular numbers because of the water shortages, chances are it arrives with the opportunist importers own brand name on it and tomorrow the importer is nowhere to be found.

There should be legislation and minimum requirements governing the quality of manufacturers instructions and enforcement thereof before they're held as being the golden standard that must be obeyed by the electrical installation regs. Secondly there should be a requirement that either the owner of the product must keep the original instructions for future reference or there must be a public web page address printed on the sticker on the product itself where the manufacturer legally must make available the installation instructions along with the user manual and any additional information on revised recommendations or product recall in future should it be necessary as well. Finally every product should carry in plain sight the name of the actual manufacturer for future reference, not just the importers or local agents chosen brand name.

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## Leecatt

Fair enough Andy, but the stipulations that GCE is quoting from the brochure appear to have been taken directly from the SANS Regulations.

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## GCE

Hi 

I have to agree that some manufactures instructions are obscure with translations and need a degree in languages before you can decipher  

Maybe Brochure was the incorrect terminology - The brochure is a collection of data sheets / specifications that we all use to check current ratings and is readily available from there website as a data sheet. 
It is the same data sheet that contractors are quick to produce to prove that T&E is UV stabilized and can therefore be used in direct sunlight.

I have attached the "data "sheet out of interest

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## AndyD

I'm sure the statement in the datasheet about the acceptable installation methods are directly from the SANS regs (6.3.6.2 amdt3 onwards) but I'd still question whether manufacturers should be quoting cherry picked regs in their literature. Firstly there's no context when they do that and then there's the big question are they going to promptly update their literature if the regs are changed by a later ammendment? Say for example the regs are changed at a later date and it becomes permissible to install direct in concrete or screed, the confusion then would be whether there might be a product related reason that particular cable that still can't be done. For example is the blend of PVC insulation incompatible with direct prolonged contact with cement? Surely it would be better just to directly state product information and data and leave the decisions about suitable installation methods up to electricians who should be qualified to make those decisions.

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## Leecatt

I'm still banging on this old drum.
The attached picture shows a downlight connected in an improper way, in my opinion.
It flaunts 6.3.7.3, there is no way to terminate the cable on the sheathing.
The termination box is being used as a connection box, there should only be one cable in there.
The earth's are not connected at all.
I did an exhaustive survey recently and I I battled to find a downlight that had a clamp for the cable. See pictures 2 and 3 which are one make and 4 and 5 which are another.


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## ians

I am yet to see that piece of metal hanging off the lampholder ...fitted on the actual downlight after installation.

It is simple you fit a tail with 1 piece of twin + E into the light connector and install a wago 221-4 junction box in the roof ...by the time you have paid around R36 per the maintenance fre box ... problem solved... i dont know that you will get the job if quoting against anyone.

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## Leecatt

Excellent Ian's! The first time I've seen this Wago box. That is definitely the solution. Where can one buy them and the cost? 

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## Rifrug

Hi Leecatt, 
“The attached picture shows a downlight connected in an improper way, in my opinion.”
I agree with you, Those connections just look bad and I have lost lots of job’s because I quote to fit a junction box with a decent connection, where some guys will accept that. But I have to follow certain strict standards on the projects we work on otherwise my clients who have their own master electricians will make us re-do those connections in a proper way.

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## Rifrug

Also we are not allowed the winding up of earth wires like on that picture, as our installations needs to be done in a manner that maintenance can be done in future without cutting off of wires. It is common practice for people to twirl wires especially in DB boards. But if you need to disconnect one cable you end up cutting of other cables earths as well.

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Leecatt (26-Jan-20)

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## SparkyScott

You get two kinds of those joint boxes,one is for a joint and the other is smaller and used for lights,very handy with the right connectors aswell.

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## Leecatt

> You get two kinds of those joint boxes,one is for a joint and the other is smaller and used for lights,very handy with the right connectors aswell.


Where are you getting the boxes from? I have made contact with the agents today only to find out that the boxes are sold only in the UK. 

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## ians

One of the companies i do work for could make a tool and mass produce these boxes...or one designed by electricians for electricians  :Wink: 
Would anyone be interested?

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## ians

> You get two kinds of those joint boxes,one is for a joint and the other is smaller and used for lights,very handy with the right connectors aswell.


Could you not ship a box full to us? I see you are in Scotland.

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## ians

Those wago connectors are the best thing since sliced bread... but at a premium price... i would hate to use them and end up on Carte blanche for ripping customers off  :Frown:  it is much cheaper to twist and tape... without a box in a roof space where no junction boxes are required  :Wink:

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## Leecatt

> Those wago connectors are the best thing since sliced bread... but at a premium price... i would hate to use them and end up on Carte blanche for ripping customers off  it is much cheaper to twist and tape... without a box in a roof space where no junction boxes are required


Really? I don't think so my friend

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## SparkyScott

I could possibly do that.

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## SparkyScott

What about click flow connectors?

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## Leecatt

> What about click flow connectors?


Are those available in South Africa? I also came across this from Hager but I don't know if it's available in South Africa or neither

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## Leecatt

> Are those available in South Africa? I also came across this from Hager but I don't know if it's available in South Africa or neither
> 
> Sent from my SM-A705FN using Tapatalk


Well a friend of mine has found the following connector box. It is 65mm in diameter so I'm not sure if it will fit into a standard hole made for a downlight, what is the standard cut out size?
The thing I'm not to happy about is that the method of holding the cable secure is a rubber seal, one on each off the four entries, which is cut in half and one half is in the top of the connector box, and that comes together with the second half, which is mounted in the other half of the connector box.
There doesn't appear to be much protection against stain on the cable but in reality, how much strain is there when using a pvc push in gland with no glue and finger - tightened.
Here is the link to the manufacturer, SA product nogal, and a picture
https://ripbox.co.za/

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## ians

I would hate to try connect more than 2 cables into the rip box.

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## Derlyn

Saw the rip box at ARB.

They cost more than double the price of a GU10 lamp holder with bracket and block, so what's the point.

Another thing. If you secure the rip box with a screw, make your connection inside and pop on the lid, you ain't gonna be able to open it again, unless you break it in the process. There's no way you gonna get a screwdriver into the slot to twist the lid open.

Not for me, thank you

Cheers and peace out   ...   Derek

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## Leecatt

> Saw the rip box at ARB.
> 
> They cost more than double the price of a GU10 lamp holder with bracket and block, so what's the point.
> 
> Another thing. If you secure the rip box with a screw, make your connection inside and pop on the lid, you ain't gonna be able to open it again, unless you break it in the process. There's no way you gonna get a screwdriver into the slot to twist the lid open.
> 
> Not for me, thank you
> 
> Cheers and peace out   ...   Derek


The point is that the light fitting you mentioned is fitted with a connection box and not a junction box. Pictures attached.
Even the connection box on the fitting mentioned has no way of terminating the cable on the sheathing as required by SANS. 

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## Derlyn

Google https://www.google.com/search?q=gu10...hrome&ie=UTF-8

https://greenlightonline.co.za/produ...BoCTuwQAvD_BwE

Check the first photo on left.   Perfect with facility to secure the sheath at R19.

That's the one I use.


Cheers and peace out   ...   Derek

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