# Regulatory Compliance Category > Labour Relations and Legislation Forum >  High Profile Cases - what really happens in the workplace

## JanChris

Has anyone had an experience or have an opinion regarding some institutions / unions only seeking high profile media cases?

I notice that on this forum some comments made fail to give straight hard hitting answers. Or am I "reading" it wrong?

Do we live in a society where we like to say what the other party wants to here?

I am interested in what really happens in the workplace and not what should happen.

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## adrianh

Nobody on this forum says anything purely because it is politically correct. We all speak frankly and openly and often have rip roaring disagreements.

You are welcome to speak your mind!

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## JanChris

I would like someone who has knowledge of this to give their comment. I think it is an interesting topic as I am sure that we all know what really happens in the workplace. I have occupied a senior management position for over 20 years and it appears to me that I am but a few who try to keep it honest and fair, much to my own detriment within the company.

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## HR Solutions

I feel that people say exactly what they want to say in the work environment.  With the new Y generation coming up thro the ranks, you need to employ different ways of management - one of them being truthfull, open and transparent.  The old way of leading people with the whip is no longer.  Your staff will leave.  When interviewing people they say exactly what they want to say - they basically don't give a damn about the next person and have the "if they don't like it then tough" attitude.  

I disagree about comments on the forum not being straight and direct.  I think most of us here say what we think and face the consequences later  :Wink:

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## JanChris

Why do the "honest" people speak their mind only on the forum but are reprimanded in the workplace? Some have lost their jobs due to their "honesty"?

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## HR Solutions

Jan - in most modern day transparent companies, honesty is encouraged - honesty bring fresh dynamic ideas especially from younger people - you cannot expect people to come to work and work just for the sake of work.  They need to enjoy it, need to be heard, need to be listened and their ideas implemented if they are great ideas.  I am busy implementing a structure and analysis - Top 10 ways to keep staff (Retention) ..... I think you might be referring to older strongly established Afrikaans companies ??

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## JanChris

I was the "afrikaans" person who after many years at a company "lost" my work due to honesty. I am the person who sent "previously disadvantaged" employees to be qualified. I was "diplomatically" outspoken in what I believe to be "human" but at the end it cost my family and I dearly. Please explain to me what my honesty benefitted me. As I mentoined before, I have proof of the wrong doings but at the end it only cost me. It only once again shows the power of money.

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## HR Solutions

> Please explain to me what my honesty benefitted me


I think it would be a lot easier if you explained why you lost your company because of "honesty" because you only refer to sending people to get qualified.  Let me ask you :  Why do you do that ?  And second question is:  How long did they work for you after they got qualified ?  And third question is:  Did you sign a contract with them when you "paid" for the qualification ?

PS:  Sending people to get trained is not being "honest" - it is improving skills for that person, for the country and for your own company.  How you manage that before and after is up to you.

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## JanChris

I sent a person for training not only to benefit the company but also the individual. It would also be more cost effective to have that person qualified in that task than sending the work out or to hire artisans and perform the work in house. The reason for mentioning this was that not all "afrikaans" people or "afrikaans" company owners fall into the category that you made mention of. 

I lost my work due to the fact that I was aware of defect steel structure work being covered up with window putty that was to be installed at a power station and that a charge sheet was fabricated to have a disciplinary enquiry. I was informed of this by my immediate superior. 

How would you react if you were in the same position?

NB: I am a Production/Factory Manager with tertiary qualifications.

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## adrianh

@JanChris - I became vastly unpopular in the corporate world for speaking my mind. I am ADHD and don't always really know what is appropriate and what not. People DO NOT like people who talk straight. The workplace is like a crèche of little kids each with their own insecurities. The problem is that each persons up the ladder is insecure too. Working in the corporate world is a dance of being politically correct, step on another's toes and face the consequences. I was forced to resign from an IT company because of politics. I vowed that I would never work in IT nor the corporate environment again.

My view is that being perfectly honest is a very bad idea. People DO NOT like it. I've been kicked off numerous Facebook photography groups for being too straight and honest in my views. The lesson that I've taken from the corporate environment, Facebook and people in general is to keep my mouth shut and to stay out of it (except on this forum)...even when I'm right and they are wrong. I have a very bad habit of standing up for the rights of others and I have also learned that when the shit hits the fan all those people that I stood up for run a mile. I've even been told that "we never asked you to stand up for us"

My view is this "Be very careful to choose the people you care for and the people you would expend energy on" We live in a consumerist society where people are as expendable as Bic lighters. The biggest lesson for me was that I need to be the master of my universe, I need to do what I want and not have to answer to some twit who is in a position higher than me but has no brain.

To put the way I feel about the corporate world, being politically correct, dancing around people's feeling etc. is this: F*ck Em!

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## Houses4Rent

Hi 

I agree with Adrian

I too withdrew from the corporate world as I was tired of having to play games and not being heard. Being German and a (former) rather analytical engineer I guess the straight talk is programmed in my DNA. I then started my own company in a totally different industry and now I speak my mind even to my paying clients. Most learnt to accept it as they realsied that I am (mostly) ultimately right and that I am doing it for their own good. The ones who continue to not like my ways and fail to see the bigger picture and my motivation behind it can take a hike.

JanChris: how did the story end? Woudl it not have been easier/less risk to tip off the relevant authorities/the customer anonymoulsy?

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## HR Solutions

> The reason for mentioning this was that not all "afrikaans" people or "afrikaans" company owners fall into the category that you made mention of.


Yes I do agree.  I merely said that from my experience the problems normally originate from older companies .... but not all.


Houses 4 rent is agreeing and disagreeing.  So it would seem that in the corporate world it is slightly different.  I must be honest I do not have too much experience in this as we normally deal with smaller companies ie not the Nedbanks, Foschini's etc (ie corporate)
But certainly in smaller companies I do not get the feel that you cannot speak your mind.

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## adrianh

You really can't. I've worked for big and small IT companies. None of them want to hear you speak your mind. You have to count your words very carefully and make sure that what you have to say is not too far from their ideas and views. It is terrible in small companies. Imagine that the boss wrote 80% of the system in Cobol in the '80s and he is mentally incapable of making the leap to Object Oriented Programming and Relational Databases. He buys the latest version of Delphi and SQL Server and then wraps all his Cobol code in a new jacket. He alters every aspect of the Windows interface to work as it did in Cobol and then goes on to treat his SQL Server database as one would use a Dbase III database. Then the guy gets cheesed off when you tell him that you simply don't work like that. To cut a long story short, every one of his employees, except me of course, simply say that if that is what the doo$ wants then so be it. It didn't take long for me to get kicked out for disagreeing with the boss....

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## HR Solutions

Aaaaah ok now youre talking about IT - Yes IT guys are a different breed of people all together - they tend to be the introvert type wherever they are.

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## Greig Whitton

In my experience, people who claim to speak their mind generally don't use it before they open their mouth. "Honesty" and "tact" are not mutually exclusive.

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## adrianh

Define "tact" when your immediate superior is a brainless twat!

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## BusFact

This is not just a work place scenario, this is life.

Honesty is generally a good characteristic to have. Employers will prefer someone who tells the truth rather than lies. But they will also generally prefer someone that keeps quiet at what the consider the right times. Most bosses don't really want to have a full blown discussion each time one of their employee's has a different point of view. Unless you are in a progressive company or in a creative environment, most bosses just want the job done. There is a time and a place for presenting your opinion, despite what the management books may imply.

Everything you do has a reaction. You can decide to be a whistle blower, but then there are repercussions - people get upset. You can decide to keep quiet and there are repercussions - you feel guilty or the problem gets worse.

Honesty isn't necessarily going to help your career I'm afraid. It might make you feel better ... for a while.

This is an ethical call each of us has to make from time to time, and each situation has to be judged on its own unique circumstances. There are no easy answers.

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## adrianh

BusFact - Well put. We all learn eventually what the appropriate answer is to the question: "Do I look fat in this"... The fact still remains that being honest at all times is not a good trait to have.

When you do the job interview you are asked whether you are honest, whether you have integrity etc. Then you get the job and the first thing they do is expect you to lie to the customer about the progress, time required and cost of a job! The mechanic can't say that he could fix your car for R5,000, no, he has to take the party line and agree with his superior that your engine needs to be redone for R50K. 

The bottom line is that companies generally do not want real people who are able to think for themselves. Companies want "resources" (robots) who are able to operate within a very narrow set of parameters without complaining or trying to hard to understand why they have to do what they have to do. Many people are able to shut themselves down mentally and work within those boundaries but some of us are simply unable to do this. I cannot function in an environment where I am expected to move a piece of paper from one end of the desk to the other without thinking about where it came from, where its going and what the best way is to move that piece of paper. Some of us, let's call us "creatives" for lack of a better word, need space to be able to create, evolve an idea and develop something without constant interference and "over the shoulder supervision". This is why some of us simply abandon the world of being an employee and strike out on our own.

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BusFact (14-May-14)

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## JanChris

Adrian, You have just copied a page out of my book and it seems that we were the authors. I agree with you 100%. It is in many cases that you end up being more qualified than your superior and because of his inability to do his job, he does everything to make you look incompetent but his boss never seems to ask himself, why do I now have 5 people doing that same job. I have seen this on many occasions. I now wonder how competent his boss really is. 

So glad to see that I am not the only person experiencing this in the workplace although large companies continue to "cover up" the mistakes of the incompetent friends/family that are employed.

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## JanChris

I would rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not.
Kurt Cobain

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## HR Solutions

> The bottom line is that companies generally do not want real people who are able to think for themselves. Companies want "resources" (robots) who are able to operate within a very narrow set of parameters without complaining or trying to hard to understand why they have to do what they have to do. Many people are able to shut themselves down mentally and work within those boundaries




This is not the case in many companies incl ours.  A lot of new companies incl marketing, social media companies, filming industry etc etc etc encourage this way of operating and thinking and creative minds, especially from the younger generation.  We love hearing how young people especially think and grow from there.

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## HR Solutions

> I would rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not.
> Kurt Cobain


@ jan Chris ..... So you prefer to lead with a whip  ?  ...... You will always then wonder why your staff leave you.

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## Justloadit

As a supplier to a corporate, during a product meeting at his request with the managers concerned, I made a suggestion to the new elected CEO, he argued against it, and my counter argument was that his direct customers were not loyal to him, and that the real customer to him and me was the actual user of the product. The words were not taken lightly, and my business suffered for years due to this statement. Fortunately he was replaced a few years later, and since then my business has picked up again.

So I now only compliment in public, and keep anything else to myself. So far it is working well.

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## JanChris

> @ jan Chris ..... So you prefer to lead with a whip  ?  ...... You will always then wonder why your staff leave you.


I think you are *missing* the discussion. According to your comments it appears to me that you have only recently entered the business world.
Hang in there, you'll learn soon to either become a pioneer and be recognised in your field of expertise or you'll be known as a blind follower that cannot think for himself or work independently. By the way, I have assisted more colleagues that reported to me than the company I worked for.

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## JanChris

> Hi 
> 
> I agree with Adrian
> 
> I too withdrew from the corporate world as I was tired of having to play games and not being heard. Being German and a (former) rather analytical engineer I guess the straight talk is programmed in my DNA. I then started my own company in a totally different industry and now I speak my mind even to my paying clients. Most learnt to accept it as they realsied that I am (mostly) ultimately right and that I am doing it for their own good. The ones who continue to not like my ways and fail to see the bigger picture and my motivation behind it can take a hike.
> 
> JanChris: how did the story end? Woudl it not have been easier/less risk to tip off the relevant authorities/the customer anonymoulsy?


Marc, I would love to have reported the matter to the client (Power Stations), but in view of the power of money, I decided not to. You can think why. At the end we agreed to disagree and I was given a small settlement and I left the company. I was not the only senior person who left.

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## adrianh

> I would rather be hated for who I am, than loved for who I am not.
> Kurt Cobain


I have to be true to myself even if it makes me unpopular. 

We used to go to Windhoek for work very often. In the evenings we all had to go supper together because the company paid and the directors would pay using their company credit cards and we would all go together using the 2 or 3 Avis cars. We would spend 3 hours forced to listen to the directors drink and entertain themselves swearing and talking $hit. All we, the great unwashed, wanted to do was stay at the guesthouse, watch TV or read or whatever. I became very close with a female colleague.  We weren't romantically involved, she is a fascinating person who is a world class athlete having taken part in the Iron Man competition. She is extremely intelligent and good company. So, we would get back to JHB and her and I would sit together. The directors and their followers would sit on the other side of the open plan office and carry on like kids. I walked past them one day and the one made a comment saying I must be gay because I like to sit with the women.

anyway, so we all go to do some work in Zambia. My lady friend and I are sitting in an office on our own working and the biggest a$$hole storms in and says to her "Do you have a 3G dongle?" She says "Yes, I'm using it" he goes "give it to me" she says "it is my own and you can have it when I'm done" he goes "ah f*ck" and storms out. She was very upset because of the way he spoke to her and of course I wasn't having any of it. Next thing he storms in again and goes "Are you done, give it to me". I just cracked and got up and said to him that he can't speak to her like that. He tells me that he can speak to her any way he likes and that she can stand up for herself. I said, no, it doesn't work like that, please apologize to her. He then storms out again. That was the last we heard about it. Many people left the company because the directors were all a bunch of a$$holes. We all felt that we would rather sweep streets that work for a bunch of sociopaths. He called me in one day and went off at me rating and raving and swearing. I asked him weather he was being serious and whether he thought that it was ok to speak to me like that. I sat there listening to his ranting and decided to also rather go sweep streets.

HR..many many many many many people in business, right from the bottom to the top are total a$$holes who not only shouldn't be working with other people but should rather be put against a wall and shot. I tcan tell you many more stories where I got into lots of trouble because I wouldn't stand for being treated like a moron.

I still contend that I will rather work on my own, even sweeping streets, than have to deal with some insecure brainless twat whom I can't simply give a smack on the ear. The frustration is simply too much for me to deal with.

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## JanChris

> I have to be true to myself even if it makes me unpopular. 
> 
> We used to go to Windhoek for work very often. In the evenings we all had to go supper together because the company paid and the directors would pay using their company credit cards and we would all go together using the 2 or 3 Avis cars. We would spend 3 hours forced to listen to the directors drink and entertain themselves swearing and talking $hit. All we, the great unwashed, wanted to do was stay at the guesthouse, watch TV or read or whatever. I became very close with a female colleague.  We weren't romantically involved, she is a fascinating person who is a world class athlete having taken part in the Iron Man competition. She is extremely intelligent and good company. So, we would get back to JHB and her and I would sit together. The directors and their followers would sit on the other side of the open plan office and carry on like kids. I walked past them one day and the one made a comment saying I must be gay because I like to sit with the women.
> 
> anyway, so we all go to do some work in Zambia. My lady friend and I are sitting in an office on our own working and the biggest a$$hole storms in and says to her "Do you have a 3G dongle?" She says "Yes, I'm using it" he goes "give it to me" she says "it is my own and you can have it when I'm done" he goes "ah f*ck" and storms out. She was very upset because of the way he spoke to her and of course I wasn't having any of it. Next thing he storms in again and goes "Are you done, give it to me". I just cracked and got up and said to him that he can't speak to her like that. He tells me that he can speak to her any way he likes and that she can stand up for herself. I said, no, it doesn't work like that, please apologize to her. He then storms out again. That was the last we heard about it. Many people left the company because the directors were all a bunch of a$$holes. We all felt that we would rather sweep streets that work for a bunch of sociopaths. He called me in one day and went off at me rating and raving and swearing. I asked him weather he was being serious and whether he thought that it was ok to speak to me like that. I sat there listening to his ranting and decided to also rather go sweep streets.
> 
> HR..many many many many many people in business, right from the bottom to the top are total a$$holes who not only shouldn't be working with other people but should rather be put against a wall and shot. I tcan tell you many more stories where I got into lots of trouble because I wouldn't stand for being treated like a moron.
> 
> I still contend that I will rather work on my own, even sweeping streets, than have to deal with some insecure brainless twat whom I can't simply give a smack on the ear. The frustration is simply too much for me to deal with.


Morning Adrian, this world clearly needs more people like you. I made the same decision to work for myself. I would (as you) rather sweep streets than listen to some idiot. The world needs pioneers not followers. I always maintain, "Hindsight is an exact form of science". That is why many bosses get acknowledged only with work done by their colleagues.

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## IanF

> I still contend that I will rather work on my own, even sweeping streets, than have to deal with some insecure brainless twat whom I can't simply give a smack on the ear. The frustration is simply too much for me to deal with.


Adrian 
Quote of the day. When you find out what makes the twat buy sometimes you can make money as they love spending other peoples money.

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## adrianh

Look, I'm no angel, I f*ck up but the thing is that I am happy to discuss it and apologize if need be. I was a programmer for an large company in Cape town. There was a huge bugger up and suppliers didn't get paid. The big man calls the IT people and the financial people in and wants to know who is to blame. The discussion goes on and on, round and round and round. This lot eventually gets to much and I say "For f*ck sake, I'll take the blame, let's just get on with it and sort the problem out". The bossman was actually a rather pleasant guy and just burst out laughing. He said jokingly "Ok great, Adrian is to blame, ok, lets move on". I am perfectly happy to work with secure intelligent people who are there to do a job. Yes of course we all make mistakes, we all get pi$$ed off at times but work to me is like being married and having kids. One should be able to openly talk issues through, learn from them, forgive and get the f*ck on with it without holding grudges.

Again HR, you advertised for a company a while back, we can confer in a PM whether it is the company that I am thinking of and I can tell you that the main man is a total nutcase who also shouldn't be in charge of buying beer let alone running a business.

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## JanChris

Adrian, I find that honesty is very difficult when one is not able to a task for which that person is appointed for. But everyone (bosses) promote openness in the workplace but god forbid those who do. Double standards or inability?

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## adrianh

Openness is only appropriate if you more or less agree with what the boss has to say.  

Lets be honest, you can't phone in in the morning and say that you're not coming in to work because you have a hangover, you think up some other excuse because you know that being that open will get you in trouble. 
You can't tell the boss that his wonderfully thought out new idea is total crap. 
You can't tell the boss that he knows perfectly well that he is taking credit for your work.
You can't tell the boss over lunch that he doesn't know what he is talking about when you are discussing something as senseless as the workings of an internal combustion engine or whatever, you have to grin and bear whatever $hit he speaks otherwise you make yourself the bad guy by calling him out on something that everybody knows he knows nothing about.

I don't think that it is double standards, I think that it goes much deeper. It goes to fundamental character traits. Many people try to separate work and home. At home they are one person and at work another. When they are at work they act a part the way one would in a movie. They write the script as they see fit and that is where the problems start. Their script may require them to be firm and fair, but in reality they are not equipped to do so. You end up with confused mixed messages because on the one hand the guy says one thing but acts totally out of character. The truth is that psychopaths are the best at playing this game because they are able to stick to one script in one instance and another script in another instance. The boss will be your big buddy when he speaks to you but when he speaks to his boss you are the total idiot who doesn't know what you are doing. This duality of personality was also difficult for me to deal with in the workplace. I always believed that a person is either my friend or my enemy but that they can't be both. I could not deal with the fact that the boss would treat me like his big buddy after work yet mess me around at work. It took me a long time...long after quitting IT to realize that the only way for me to be is indifferent, which of course creates its own problems because you are supposed to show the appropriate emotion. You have to be sad when the boss crashes his car and you have to be happy when he gets a free ticket. My motto eventually became "I don't give a $h1t one way or another" it is your life and I have mine, just as much as you don't care about me and my life I don't care about you and yours. 

@JanChris, when the whole IT thing went down it took me by surprise because I considered my boss to be my friend. We went through thick and thin together and I supported him when he became the branch manager. He tossed me out like the garbage and stuffed up my chances to work in the industry. I got extremely depressed and nearly went over a mental cliff. I didn't know how to deal with my entire world being swept from under my feet by somebody whom I regarded as a friend. It's taken me a very very long time to regain mental stability and the only way I found to do so was to insulate myself from being hurt by people. I will never put my own wellbeing in the hands of another person, I will not let them have the power over how I choose to live my life, how I choose to deal with people or anything at all. My wife and I run our little business together in our own little world, yes we have our ups and downs but at least we can talk about and get on with it.

My wife worked for Eskom for 17 years. She's a heavy current technician and she worked in finance in distribution. We both just saw too many good people get screwed over by poor management and retrenchment (oh sorry "restructuring") to have any regard for being employees. This is not a BEE, black and white, Afrikaans vs English problem, it is far bigger. All I can say again, as usual is "F*ck Em!"

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## HR Solutions

> I think you are *missing* the discussion. According to your comments it appears to me that you have only recently entered the business world.
> Hang in there, you'll learn soon to either become a pioneer and be recognised in your field of expertise or you'll be known as a blind follower that cannot think for himself or work independently. By the way, I have assisted more colleagues that reported to me than the company I worked for.



No prob jan if u feel I am missing the discussion.

And just to clarify I have had two very successfull business's - sold the first one after 15 years and have had the Recruitment business for 10 years with branches in Jhb & CT, but I shall refrain from the discussion if I do not agree with your sentiments as clearly I "am new in the business world" according to you. I have a very dynamic team of consultants both in CT and Jhb which keeps our company fresh with new ideas.  But all the best with your management style Jan,

Just by the way we are "recognised" in our field if expertise ...... So I suppose we might be doing something right  :Wink: 
We place people in company's on a daily basis so have a little experience of what their requirements are as well .... But I suppose it is only 10 years of Recruitment experience ........

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## JanChris

> No prob jan if u feel I am missing the discussion.
> 
> And just to clarify I have had two very successfull business's - sold the first one after 15 years and have had the Recruitment business for 10 years with branches in Jhb & CT, but I shall refrain from the discussion if I do not agree with your sentiments as clearly I "am new in the business world" according to you. I have a very dynamic team of consultants both in CT and Jhb which keeps our company fresh with new ideas.  But all the best with your management style Jan,
> 
> Just by the way we are "recognised" in our field if expertise ...... So I suppose we might be doing something right 
> We place people in company's on a daily basis so have a little experience of what their requirements are as well .... But I suppose it is only 10 years of Recruitment experience ........


Your comments are noted but there are some statements I made that you failed to comment on. Why, is it because of your company's image? Unfortunately (to some) I call a spade a spade and fail to see the need to pussy foot around when making a comment or statement. Not all has the ability to send someone to hell, and make that person look forward to the trip. There are far too many hipocrites and two face, back stabbing people in this world. I would much rather be associated with a straight talker (and do-er). Like the statement by Kurt Cobain.

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## JanChris

> Openness is only appropriate if you more or less agree with what the boss has to say.  
> 
> Lets be honest, you can't phone in in the morning and say that you're not coming in to work because you have a hangover, you think up some other excuse because you know that being that open will get you in trouble. 
> You can't tell the boss that his wonderfully thought out new idea is total crap. 
> You can't tell the boss that he knows perfectly well that he is taking credit for your work.
> You can't tell the boss over lunch that he doesn't know what he is talking about when you are discussing something as senseless as the workings of an internal combustion engine or whatever, you have to grin and bear whatever $hit he speaks otherwise you make yourself the bad guy by calling him out on something that everybody knows he knows nothing about.
> 
> I don't think that it is double standards, I think that it goes much deeper. It goes to fundamental character traits. Many people try to separate work and home. At home they are one person and at work another. When they are at work they act a part the way one would in a movie. They write the script as they see fit and that is where the problems start. Their script may require them to be firm and fair, but in reality they are not equipped to do so. You end up with confused mixed messages because on the one hand the guy says one thing but acts totally out of character. The truth is that psychopaths are the best at playing this game because they are able to stick to one script in one instance and another script in another instance. The boss will be your big buddy when he speaks to you but when he speaks to his boss you are the total idiot who doesn't know what you are doing. This duality of personality was also difficult for me to deal with in the workplace. I always believed that a person is either my friend or my enemy but that they can't be both. I could not deal with the fact that the boss would treat me like his big buddy after work yet mess me around at work. It took me a long time...long after quitting IT to realize that the only way for me to be is indifferent, which of course creates its own problems because you are supposed to show the appropriate emotion. You have to be sad when the boss crashes his car and you have to be happy when he gets a free ticket. My motto eventually became "I don't give a $h1t one way or another" it is your life and I have mine, just as much as you don't care about me and my life I don't care about you and yours. 
> 
> ...


I came through the ranks from being an apprentice, then study, then into the corporate arena. I was one of many that wanted to make a success in the working world. But, I never thought that I would meet so many assholes along the way. It almost let's you lose faith in the powers to be and in the "human" race.

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## HR Solutions

> Your comments are noted but there are some statements I made that you failed to comment on. Why, is it because of your company's image? Unfortunately (to some) I call a spade a spade and fail to see the need to pussy foot around when making a comment or statement. Not all has the ability to send someone to hell, and make that person look forward to the trip. There are far too many hipocrites and two face, back stabbing people in this world. I would much rather be associated with a straight talker (and do-er). Like the statement by Kurt Cobain.



There are some comments that u have also failed to comment on and some comments and facts that u have not even picked up on.  But in fact you are agreeing by saying - "you say what u want to say" etc etc - I also believe in honesty as I have been saying ....

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## adrianh

HR - then you are a good business man and a good manager. I've worked with very few bosses and managers who take kindly to too much honesty.

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