# Interest group forums > Electrical Contracting Industry Forum >  Workmanship or OCD

## ians

I was reading a blog about people who go over the top and I realised oooops  but I do that. I am referring to making sure all the screws on the switches, DB covers etc are all in line vertical or horizontal, I prefer vertical. 

I also do Silly things like when I finish wiring a DB, I take my screwdriver machine and loosen the torque a little then start at the top and tighten every single circuit breaker, then  I check them manually with a screwdriver and sometimes just before I fit the cover randomly check them again.

When I chase the walls I use a level or a chalk to mark the walls so that the cuts are straight, all cuts are vertical or horizontal on the line. 

I am told this is a disorder, just imagine if they found out I was also left handed  too 😜

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## Mike C

You are the kind of professional that I appreciate.  Keep it up.

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ians (22-Aug-14)

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## adrianh

You would be OCD if you were to retighten every screw exactly 5 times and clean the DB board exactly 3 times and measure the length of each wire exactly 4 times and strip each wire exactly 7 times. Being OCD seems to be characterized by rituals that are formed by very specific numbers or repetitive behaviours. Behaviours like washing your hands all the time or counting things that don't need to be counted.

As you can see there is a big difference between being thorough and being OCD. People that are thorough tend to be ANAL because they will not let things slide where people who are OCD will happily do the wrong thing over and over again.

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## Justloadit

To me this is the mark of a professional, who takes responsibility for any work performed. It also tells me that there is care and that thought is used when doing any work, and in my books means that I can trust the equipment that has been serviced or manufactured. Some professionals take offense when you do a check on their work done for you, they may feel that you do not trust them or that they are inadequate, however we are all human, and a simple mistake can cause a huge loss to all, and believe me there have been a few times that something was missed by the professionals, and when they see it, they just say 'oh, I missed that', but who takes responsibility when something goes wrong?

I also like to have straight lines where holes are concerned, or cut lines or whatever, I love to see clean symmetrical patterns too when there are groups of screw which are holding equipment on panels or boards. it just makes the completed job look so much better, in fact people who know nothing about what you have done, simply just get a feeling that all is well and in good order. It simply just feels right.

All this checking boils down to safety for future users. Heard a story yesterday where a safety officer fell to his death on an overhead crane some years back, because the gantry screws were not tightened properly, and the nuts fell off with vibration during the testing, and as he stepped on it to check, it gave way.

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## Justloadit

What I found in the past, when doing a job, and I get interrupted for what ever reason, by the time I get back, I have forgotten what I was doing and where I was at the point before the interruption, with out the double check, certain tasks were not completed, although visually they do look complete.

Another point in which mistakes and errors creep up, is when you are under pressure to complete a job faster than you would normally do it, you then tend to overlook some of the double checking, and wham bam, that's when the sh!t hits the fan. I now tend to get the urgency out of my head when working under these conditions, and tend to be more alert to what I am doing due to the reduction in the checking procedure.

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## wynn

> I was reading a blog about people who go over the top and I realised oooops  but I do that. I am referring to making sure all the screws on the switches, DB covers etc are all in line vertical or horizontal, I prefer vertical. 
> 
> I also do Silly things like when I finish wiring a DB, I take my screwdriver machine and loosen the torque a little then start at the top and tighten every single circuit breaker, then  I check them manually with a screwdriver and sometimes just before I fit the cover randomly check them again.
> 
> When I chase the walls I use a level or a chalk to mark the walls so that the cuts are straight, all cuts are vertical or horizontal on the line. 
> 
> I am told this is a disorder, just imagine if they found out I was also left handed  too


You are AROC (Anal Retentive Obsessive Compulsive) do you also check the door is locked a number of times before you leave the house or car?

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## Dave A

At least you don't use a torque wrench when you tighten the screws...  :Wink:

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## Justloadit

> At least you don't use a torque wrench when you tighten the screws...


Jokes aside, but there is a reason for torquing the bolts, especially the big stuff, over tightening can strip the threads, or worse, the bolt snaps, off course under torquing the bolts leads to hot joints due to expansion and contraction forces.

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## mikilianis

Very impressive ians considering that you are a lefty but on the other hand I would also be cautious if I were a lefty,

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## ians

😀 bust,I had to laugh when i read your post. Sometimes I turn and go back to my workshop to make sure the gate is closed, as i get older it happens more often.

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## AndyD

> At least you don't use a torque wrench when you tighten the screws...


We started using torque screwdrivers a few years ago for assembling control panels. Most terminations do have maunfacturers recommended torque settings.  

If the circuit breakers in domestic DB boards have recommeded tightning torques general sparkies should really be using them.

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## Justloadit

> We started using torque screwdrivers a few years ago for assembling control panels. Most terminations do have maunfacturers recommended torque settings.  
> 
> If the circuit breakers in domestic DB boards have recommeded tightning torques general sparkies should really be using them.


Have you any specs on these screw drivers?
Where do you purchase them?

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## ians

They are available, at a hefty price. One of the problems with using screwdrivers, most people don't know the difference between a PH and PZ which is why  you find so many stripped screws and you can't torque a stripped screw. 

Bottom line, you would need to educate people about the difference between PH and PZ first, then all electrical components would require the torque setting printed on the device. I would be all for it, but in the real world, not gona happen.

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## skatingsparks

Nothing wrong with any of that.  I do the screws vertical thing.  Not because of OCD but if someone else comes along and tinkers with things you have done, you know.  Also takes just as long to cut and chase a straight line as it does to do a rough, wonky one.

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## AndyD

> Have you any specs on these screw drivers?
> Where do you purchase them?


I got them from RS Components. They're either Wiha or Wika, I can't remember offhand TBH but I'll get the info tomorrow when I'm in the workshop. I have a couple of them, one for the lighter torques and one for the heavier torques.

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## AndyD

> They are available, at a hefty price. One of the problems with using screwdrivers, most people don't know the difference between a PH and PZ which is why  you find so many stripped screws and you can't torque a stripped screw. 
> 
> Bottom line, you would need to educate people about the difference between PH and PZ first, then all electrical components would require the torque setting printed on the device. I would be all for it, but in the real world, not gona happen.


You get Philips, Pozidrive, Superdrive, and you also get modulo philips and modulo pozidrive,also known as 'plus minus' screws which are flat and star at the same time and you see a lot on contactor and MCB termination screws. I also carry four different modulo screwdrivers in my toolcase. It's critical with modulo screwdrivers that you use the right one otherwise the blade cracks easily because all the torque ends up on one point if it's in a screw it doesn't fit properly.

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## ians

😀 Andy this is Africa. If you go to the wholesaler it is difficult enough trying to get a PZ screwdriver.

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## Justloadit

> Andy this is Africa. If you go to the wholesaler it is difficult enough trying to get a PZ screwdriver.


More like a reply 'watz that?'
Recently went looking for 'Shelac' for a special kind of job, and none of the motor parts suppliers even knew what I was talking about, save for an old timer at an old place. We use to use it in the old days to seal oil sumps to the engine block.

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## AndyD

> Andy this is Africa. If you go to the wholesaler it is difficult enough trying to get a PZ screwdriver.


If it's anything that's not high volume items all the wholesalers are absolutely useless.

This is the torque driver I use, it's gone up in price considerably from when I bought it though, I think I paid around R700 each for mine. Here's the modulo driver bits that fit it.

This is the normal screwdriver set I use, it comes with 2 x modulo (plus-minus) blades.

I should be gettng commission frm RS.

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## AndyD

> More like a reply 'watz that?'
> Recently went looking for 'Shelac' for a special kind of job, and none of the motor parts suppliers even knew what I was talking about, save for an old timer at an old place. We use to use it in the old days to seal oil sumps to the engine block.


Are you using it for repairing motor windings? 
SPANJAARD LTD, Address: 748-750 Fifth Street, Wynberg, Sandton
Telephone Number:+27 (0)11 386-7100
sell a spray electrical insulatng varnish which can be used on most stators. If you're rewinding from scratch you need something a bit more serious.

We usually use Wilec for most stuff to do with rewinding. They sell a limited selection of insulating resins for trickle and vacuum impregnation of windings.

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## Justloadit

With tools like these makes screwing fun :Bananadance:

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## Justloadit

> Are you using it for repairing motor windings? 
> SPANJAARD LTD, Address: 748-750 Fifth Street, Wynberg, Sandton
> Telephone Number:+27 (0)11 386-7100
> sell a spray electrical insulatng varnish which can be used on most stators. If you're rewinding from scratch you need something a bit more serious.
> 
> We usually use Wilec for most stuff to do with rewinding. They sell a limited selection of insulating resins for trickle and vacuum impregnation of windings.


Nice stuff you pointing too.

No interestingly I am using it to seal case splitting extruded aluminium cases. Cleaning the excess is easier than silicone, and makes the opening of the case easier for repairs, and for resealing.

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## ians

I have a very expensive torque screwdriver( thermal imager) , it scans the connection after a couple days to see if it is getting warm. 

There is another way to check your connection and works great for older circuit breakers, check the mV from the top of the breaker to the bottom.

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## AndyD

> I have a very expensive torque screwdriver( thermal imager) , it scans the connection after a couple days to see if it is getting warm. 
> 
> There is another way to check your connection and works great for older circuit breakers, check the mV from the top of the breaker to the bottom.


We also use thermal imaging on our panels but I think the difference is that thermography and even voltdrop only indicate the resistence of the terminations at that moment whereas using the correct tightning torque is insurance that there will be as little degradation of the termination as possible over time.

It's all relative however, if you're using fine stranded wire in compression terminals or if you're fitting your lugs and ferrules by squeezing them with a pair of sidecutters then tightning torques are the least of your worries but as an assembler our crimping tools and other assembly tooling has to be calibrated every year as well.

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## ians

I can understand all that for panel builders working in a cool environment with all his tools laid out on a work bench, but what about the electrician on site, working in hectic conditions under pressure to finish by a deadline, bad lighting with the risk of tools and equipment being stolen who are connecting twin + e, solid strand Or multi strand wires? Something else I have found with lower end circuit breakers, you tighten today, go back a week later and terminals are loose.

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ACEsterhuizen (26-Aug-14)

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## ACEsterhuizen

Put in a squirt and forget about it.

Electrically Conductive Adhesives been around for some time now.

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## Justloadit

The issue is not whether the screw unloosens by itself, but rather the pressure on the copper wire, along with heating and cooling, cause the copper to deform, and in so doing makes a poor mechanical then off course electrical connection. Locking the screw simply means that the next electrician doing maintenance gets fooled that the connection is tight, where in the meantime the screw is locked, but the copper has deformed and still makes a loose connection.

on home installations, the deformation of the copper may not be a big issue, because the currents involved are small, but in industrial applications where curent can be intheir hundreds, this becomes a major issue.

Another point to consider is the physical deformation of the copper wire may be due to poor manufacturing processes, where the annealing of the wire is not done correctly, which will lead to a softer copper wire, which is subject to easier deformation.

IMHO the torquing of the screws is to also ensure that one does not go past the 'bending moment' of the copper wire in which there is no return to its original state. So over tightening of the screw does not mean a better connection. In fact good practice is to place the copper wire into a ferrule and then compressing the ferrule onto the copper with the terminal. The ferrule ensures a complete compression of the copper evenly into the space allowed.

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## ians

Justloadit, once you get to higher levels of current it becomes a different league, by this I mean lugs, crimpers, nuts and bolts and torque wrenches. Which brings in another pile of issues like indent crimpers, hydraulic crimpers, crimping pressures etc etc etc .

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## AndyD

Many mechanical clamp terminals aren't suitable for use with stranded wire. When you tighten a clamp onto a bunch of wire strands the bunch can flatten or splay causing the terminal to seem loose at a later date. As said by Justloadit above you should ferrule or lug wires at terminations.

I'd never recommend using threadlock or any other setting adhesive agent to secure a termination. You can never accurately re-torque the screw after the application and you'd never be guarranteed a good termination again if it's ever undone and remade during fault finding for example.

I think every electrician, even one who only works on domestic, should own a decent indent crimper. Even a poor termination on a wire carrying a few Amps is enough to cause a house fire that could kill people.

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## ians

Don't get me wrong I agree with the idea of using torque wrenches. We just have to remember we live in Africa and when people can't tell the difference between a PZ and PH chances you aren't gona get a torque wrench to work unless you use the right bit. We have bigger issues to conquer in this industry.

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## ians

We could always go back to the old tinned wire and soldered lugs 😉

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## AndyD

Call me old fashioned,  don't care. Tinning of stranded wire is something I still do if I don't have asuitable ferrule.  :Smile:

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## Justloadit

> Call me old fashioned,  don't care. Tinning of stranded wire is something I still do if I don't have asuitable ferrule.


Actually as far as I am concerned, IMHO, not a good solution either, simply due to the fact that lead over time crystallizes, and loses its shape, causing the joint to become loose quicker than simply using the copper wire itself. This kind of problem is evident in old electronic equipment, where the physical pressure of a soldered joint on large components, especially capacitors, eventually breaks away from the capacitor leg, and stops conduction. The banging of old electronic equipment would usually cause the equipment to function again because the banging would make the heavy components shift and conduction would take place again. First rule when repairing old electronic equipment, is to scrutinize the solder joints around large heavy components to identify this lead break down. 

Best is still to use a ferrule if you have one, or simply use the stranded copper wire directly.

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## ians

The conclusion - just make sure you have a tight connection and recheck if any wires are moved before you put the cover back. If you can afford a torque wrench, use it. Lastly,  wrap the smaller wires before terminating.

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## ians

I always thought it was the right thing to do. Bang the electronic device on the table or something and it starts working again 😜 just kidding. I believe that works for your remote because of the build up on the battery ends, the harder you you bang the longer it works, you should take it out clean and replace with a new battery

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