# Regulatory Compliance Category > Labour Relations and Legislation Forum >  gross insubordination - what to do ?

## radeonman

pheeew second time asking for input here in the forums in one day - tis a blue monday indeed ! :Sorry: 

well here's what happened :

my most expereinced chap ( happens to be factory manager as well ) was doing a job that we had to have complete on friday morning for installation at the clients home ( 26/10/12 ) , he knew this , when the day ended he whent home instead of putting in overtime to complete the job , the factory was working late on various other projects so there was a overtime shift in place already . he then sent a message with a fellow worker on friday morning saying he couldnt come in as he had personal business to attend to , i phoned the worker and reminded him that the client has now been put out and could he please come to work on saturday ( 27/10/12 ) so we could finish off - he said he that is in order he will be there , i spoke with the client and apologized and said we would be there on saturday no problems - he was happy with that . worker in on saturday and when i had a look at the end product it was shocking in quality and done incorrectly and would not be able to even fit into the clients application , i told him that , he got upset and downed tools and walked out , i had to speak again with the client on saturday who by now is past the point of irate with me and my business seens we arent coming to finish the job once again . today the worker is not here to fix the job and after i phoned him he told me that he was not happy with my attitude when i spoke to him about the job in question , he will only be back in tomorrow again to discuss this with me .

now if there is a labour lawyer in the house or somebody with expereince in such matters may i ask if i can have this chap up for gross insubordination ? 

now i know i was very harsh in my criticism of his workmanship and for staying out on the day we were supposed to have completed the job but after having to kiss the clients behind to keep him happy and then having to do more butt kissing  again and making myself look like a a-hole as well i feel as the employer i have the right to say something to my workers when they drop me like this with a important client .

a) do i have the right to disclipine this chap ?
b) can i skip giving a verbal warning and go straight to a final written warning for such gross insubordination ?  

hey many thanks for anybody taking the time to read this long post and having any answers .

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## Blurock

Gross insubordination is a dismissable offence. The guy can get for fired or should at least receive a warning. Get a labour consultant in if you can not deal with it yourself. :Wink:

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## radeonman

thanks blurock - as a outsider looking at this scenario would this qualify as gross insubordination in your opinion ? im just trying to get a outsiders view point before i go all guns blazing into this situation . :Mad:

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## Blurock

I do not want to be the judge on sketchy information as there is always two sides to a story. Insubordination is refusing an instruction and is punishable.. You did mention that the guy had personal problems. It may be worth your while to find out what this was about. It must have been serious if it affected his work so badly. 

By showing some compassion you may get more out of the guy in future. If you fire the guy, you need to recruit and train a new worker who may even be worse. It all depends on your relationship with the worker and whether that relationship can be healed.

Do you want revenge for botching a job or do you want to solve a problem? :Wink:

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flaker (01-Nov-12)

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## radeonman

yeah i see what your saying mate , unfortunately this fella is a repeat offender when it comes to this time of the year and when i spoke to him on saturday he smelled strongly of alcahol as well . im guesing maybe he needed a day off on friday to spend all his overtime money he received , all work and no play makes jack a dull boy if i recall the saying ? i think ill just suspend him for a week , should give him enough time to spend all his lolly and need some more then ...

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## Dave A

Based on the OP, I was leaning towards "insubordination - written warning (with *perhaps* a suspension)". 

It sounded like there are points in mitigation of doing anything too drastic... until I read the bit about "smells of alcohol".
Now that *is* serious  :EEK!: 
And frankly, probably the problem you should be paying most attention to.

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## Blurock

> yeah i see what your saying mate , unfortunately this fella is a repeat offender when it comes to this time of the year and when i spoke to him on saturday he smelled strongly of alcahol as well . im guesing maybe he needed a day off on friday to spend all his overtime money he received , all work and no play makes jack a dull boy if i recall the saying ? i think ill just suspend him for a week , should give him enough time to spend all his lolly and need some more then ...


In a workplace one should try to build a team. In that context I would not want a repeat offender on my team as it breaks down morale and team spirit. :Frown:

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## Mike C

> "smells of alcohol".


Be careful here.  "Smells of alcohol" does not stand up as proof of anything at the CCMA or a hearing.  Even finding them with alcohol on the premises means nothing.  One has to prove that they had actually imbibed ... and the only way to do that is to have a test taken.  One can buy breathalysers for the workplace.  Even if it is argued that it is not accurate, it "proves" that the person had imbibed.  And when working with heavy equipment or power tools, he or she then becomes a danger to themselves and others - which is very serious.

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## radeonman

thanks folks for the input im going with suspension and maybe going to try for a dismissal as well , got to a point where my work isnt going out the door and my bills are piling up due to one rotten apple - i think nipping it in the bud is the best medicine .

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## adrianh

Like Blurock says, there are always 2 sides to a story. Employees also become difficult when an employer is abusive. (I am not saying you are - I am just saying that attitude and tone of voice makes a hell of a difference in the workplace). I can think of a number of instances where I was a total harda$$ because an employer was disrespectful or rude. As an employer one has to be careful to try and have your cake and eat it. You can't expect an employee to put in extra time and effort if you verbally abuse him.

I get the feeling that you have been gunning for him for a while.





> *now i know i was very harsh in my criticism of his workmanship and for staying out on the day we were supposed to have completed the job* but after having to kiss the clients behind to keep him happy and then having to do more butt kissing again and making myself look like a a-hole as well i feel as the employer i have the right to say something to my workers when they drop me like this with a important client .


I get the feeling that you are not a very pleasant person given your manner of speech and I get the feeling that you are more pi$$ed about "looking like a a-hole" more than anything else.

If I were the employee I would carry a tape recorder with me at all times.

Remember, any relationship is a two way street.

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## radeonman

point taken sir .

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## adrianh

I  learned it the hard way...having been an employee and an employer, and take it from me, I also get p1$$ed when things don't get done or when people are just difficult.

At the end of the day the only thing that each of us as employers and employees can do is to treat one another with respect and to keep our own noses clean...as hard as it is to keep one's cool.

The problem these days is that everybody have cellphones with cameras which are able to record our every move. You may just strip at an employee and call him something or the other and find a video of the event not only in a CCMA case but also on Youtube. We live in a world where our every action can be recorded and broacast to the entire world to see (...and I also forget this fact when I get the mo3r in and do the roadrage thing...)

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## Blurock

> The problem these days is that everybody have cellphones with cameras which are able to record our every move. You may just strip at an employee and call him something or the other and find a video of the event not only in a CCMA case but also on Youtube. We live in a world where our every action can be recorded and broacast to the entire world to see (...and I also forget this fact when I get the mo3r in and do the roadrage thing...)


Agreed Adrian. That is why we should always try to live who we really are and try to avoid mood swings and outbursts. I also find that hard to do though... :Wink:

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## adrianh

> That is why we should always try to live who we really are


To the contrary, I don't actually give a $h1t about a lot of things....The last thing I need in my life is to present the world with who I really am. I am quite happy to tell people to f_off when they get on my nerves (which is often)

I think the answer is for us to be true diplomats at all times...to please those who need to be pleased even though you know that it is a blatant lie. 

We are expected to have multiple personalities just to get through the day, we must be nice to customers we hate, we should not speak our minds when we feel the urge and we should not tell the boss when he is just being a total a-hole. The when we get home we shouldn't get cross when young Suzy has thrown the TV remote in the toilet, the wife bitches about the unfixed (whatever) and the gardener has broken the lawnmower again. We have to be able to switch modes, click, you are the dilligent worker agreeing with whatever garbage the boss comes up with, click, you are the family man who agrees with the wife and doesn't get cross with suzy, click, click click.......The problem with me is that I got those modes wrong a lot of the time, I wold tell the boss to f_off when he gets on my nerves and I would crack when the remote goes down the toilet yet again....

Nah, I try to stay far away from my general personality....it has gotten me in far too much trouble over the years....the best is to act whatever part needs to be acted and to smile wrily and be happy in the knowledge that I am simply acting a part in a game called "My life"

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## Didditmiself

adrianh, you could have used my name up there instead of yours, only difference is I'm not a Platinum member yet! High five my Buddy! :Applaud:

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## IMHO

> I am simply acting a part in a game called "My life"


Congratulations if you can succeed in that. I am trying, but just can not be successful at it! My favorite fail is to tell the customer that is wrong, to f_off! Next favorite is the wife... haha. She always have a SOHF. (Sense of humor failure) If something breaks, they pull straws to determine who is going to tell me.

Then again, my hardworking, honest staff and loyal, honest customers, will die for me... I wonder why?

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## Dave A

> I think the answer is for us to be true diplomats at all times...


I think the answer is to continuously work on improving ourselves. Diplomacy can backfire horribly if it isn't backed by sincerity.

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## Blurock

> I think the answer is to continuously work on improving ourselves. Diplomacy can backfire horribly if it isn't backed by sincerity.


Diplomacy is ok, but often we try to be politically correct or gender sensitive to our own detriment and then do not get to the point of solving the problem.

People know me as someone who does not take any bullshit. What you see is what you get. People know where they stand with me as I do not often hide my feelings. (which has also landed me in trouble)

I will not accept bad service, but I will also not accept abuse. I have learnt the hard way that being civil and professional does not mean being soft. When you lose your temper and start calling people names, the tide usually start turning against you, even when you are right. Be firm, but still treat people with respect.  :Wink:

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## adrianh

@Blurock - I agree..but there is jst so much more to our own mental states.

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## Mike C

The secret of success is sincerity. Once you can fake that, you've got it made. -Jean Giraudoux

 :Smile:

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## adrianh

Mike C ... now that statement rocks....

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## IMHO

> The secret of success is sincerity. Once you can fake that, you've got it made. -Jean Giraudoux


Something like this?

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## gac

Take a look at this info:

http://www.labourguide.co.za/general...ordination-406

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## Selepeks

Gross insubordination is a dismissable offence, it is "refers as refusal to obey reasonable intruction"

The follwing should be interogated:
- Investiagation of the misconduct
- Was the indtrcution reasonable?
- Did the worker understand his/her responsibility?

The others factor I picked-up from you is that there was an arguement prior to refusal to perform a particular work. This can be his/her  arguement in the hearing your conduct also might considers intollerable. Base on others factor folloes the disciplany enquiry  and posible final warning. He came to work, he wanted to follow the instruction.

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## Darkangelyaya

> I get the feeling that you have been gunning for him for a while.
> 
> I get the feeling that you are not a very pleasant person given your manner of speech and I get the feeling that you are more pi$$ed about "looking like a a-hole" more than anything else.


LOL Adrianh, you just have such a... direct way... about you.

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## radeonman

conclusion :

did not come back to work for 2 weeks  , sent official letter to his home after a week and only a week later he decided to come back to work , told him he was supposed to come in for his disciplinary hearing as stated in the letter he told me he didint even bother to open the letter as he was to distressed - i fired him then for desertion . 

unfortunately going through his job card's i discovered the current job he was working on was a total disaster had to be re done and thus a net loss of + - r 15000.00 excluding having to pay one of my other senior guys overtime to get the job fixed and out although since my firsting posting i still have not received payment from the client for a job badly done . and the absolute fantastic part of this ? had to pay the bastard out his leave pay as well while he stood there with a big "fu" grin on his face .

lesson ? money cant buy loyalty or integrity .

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## Dave A

Yep - there are times when as the business owner you really feel like a punching bag. 

The silver lining is if he'd stayed he'd have cost you even more in the long run. At least you've stopped the bleeding.

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