# Interest group forums > Electrical Contracting Industry Forum >  Advice

## greasemonkey

Hey all, 
I need to issue a COC but refuse because the factory is  not up to scratch.I have been at it for 3 months now and still not finished.(I am permanently employed by them)The fact that my job is on the line does not bother me.I try to be honest all the time and this factory will not pass in any way. The bosses son has brought in a "tame" sparky who will issue a COC for the factory as it stands.Can I post some pics and details and you guys tear it apart and tell me who is wrong? 

Some examples as a teaser:
1)50 mm 4 core rubber trailing cable 70mts long used as a permanent supply to a test bench with a step up transformer with no safety equipment and only a 400 amp breaker to switch the transformer.Connected to the municipal supply with no meter etc.
2)Plugs and lights connected to a 125 amp isolator direct(no switching etc)
3)DB's and isolators bricked closed.(I am still trying to find all of them)

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mikilianis (30-Jul-10)

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## Sparks

For things like that I would shut the place down. You know it. Do it before someone gets hurt. It will bug you the rest of your life(in jail)

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mikilianis (30-Jul-10)

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## mikilianis

Go for it send some pics and let us unite and anounce the spark that issued the coc as a fraud there is to much of that crap (issuing coc fraudulently ) going around undermines us genuine electricians like if possible use him as an example and prosecute him for fraud.Go for it .
Mike :Frown:

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Sparks (31-Jul-10)

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## Sparks

We need more of this attitude! We need to stand together about people who are discrediting our occupation.

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## greasemonkey

These are a few of the problems I have that they dont want repaired.The 16a plug in the hole is unswitched(no e/l or breaker)and the cable sticking out the top is live and cut. Top pic shows close up showing connections.Cable goes to main busbar and supplies store pc/heater/hotplate/kettle etc.Had to cut holes in the walls to find it.Everything is supposedly "mission critical" and cannot be switched off .Thinking or organising a municipal "power failure" and going mad with a sidecutter(probably get fired chop chop but its worth it)There is a lot worse,will take pics and show

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## AndyD

The first thing I would do is to list the problems and send by recorded mail or email to the general manager as well as the owner along with the info in laymans terms stating why its a hazard. Demand a reply and inform him that now he's aware of the problems he's also personally liable and will also go to jail if he refuses to act and someone gets hurt or killed. Explain that by refusing to act he's putting you in a very difficult position and keep copies of everything.

Bottom line is if they're prepared to ignore obvious hazards that can result in the death of an employee then they're not the kinda customer you want to work for.

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greasemonkey (02-Aug-10)

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## Dave A

Maybe also point out that a DoL inspection is bound to have the operation shut down. Might help shift the line on what really is "mission critical." 

It seems DoL inspectors are increasingly aware of electrical safety issues and I'd guess all it would take is a disgruntled employee (on just about anything  :Innocent:  ) to encourage a visit.

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## AndyD

> Maybe also point out that a DoL inspection is bound to have the operation shut down. Might help shif the line on what really is "mission critical." 
> 
> It seems DoL inspectors are increasingly aware of electrical safety issues and I'd guess all it would take is a disgruntled employee (on just about anything  ) to encourage a visit.


I like that idea. If they're not motivated by someone possibly getting hurt they'll definitely be motivated by the financial implications of getting shut down by the DOL.  :Big Grin:

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## Dave A

We discovered all the pleasures of scaffolding erection safety requirements when a DoL inspector stopped around a factory trying to bust people operating forklifts without the appropriate certification. My guys just happened to be at the wrong place at the wrong time.

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greasemonkey (03-Aug-10)

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## Sparks

I have refused COC's for less. When someone gets hurt and it will happen you will be held responsible. Put it all in writing and send copies to DOL and local supplier. If I am correct this is the tip of the iceberg. The local supplier can shut down the whole supply if an installation is not certified or poses a threat to them

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greasemonkey (03-Aug-10)

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## greasemonkey

Thx guys,this is the route I am going.Will keep you all posted.

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## AndyD

I would be interested to hear the outcome. Good luck!!

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## greasemonkey

Hey all, first update: After presenting my case and explaining my refusal so issue a COC, I have been given a months notice.In  short, sign the COC or leave(implied not said).This is fine by me.Will find another job(any leads?) and wait for the tame sparky to sign the COC and then go the DOL route.I can go now but then the tame sparky gets away.

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## daveob

Well done for having the balls to do what's right.   :Applaud:

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## Dave A

> Hey all, first update: After presenting my case and explaining my refusal so issue a COC, I have been given a months notice.


Go straight to the CCMA for unfair dismissal.

 :Oops:  Bargaining council situation.

Go straight to the National Bargaining Council for the Electrical Industry and register a dispute.

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## greasemonkey

Eish! Talk about not seeing the obvious, thanx for the heads up!
Iwas so engrossed in this whole issue that it slipped me entirely that I have legal recourse
for myself as well.Guess I have a lot of homework this weekend.

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## Sparks

Good for you. And don't be surprised if you get begged to come back. They not only fired you illegally, it was done because you refused to break the law. The state of the workplace will also become public and they might just be forced to close their doors. Seems to me you could be in for finacial incentive to do the right thing again. Well done. :Applaud:

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## Dave A

As long as your technical case is strong (the installation is not compliant), it should be pretty simple. At this stage just download the dispute forms on the website, fill them in and send them off. 

You can't be dismissed for doing your job, and them requiring you to issue a COC or face dismissal on an installation that isn't up to standard is unreasonable.

Consider it part of the negotiating process on the issue. As you are in the notice period, the decision to dismiss is easily reversable - there doesn't need to be any losers.

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## greasemonkey

Quick update, The powers that be have got nasty and tried and force the issue . I am now on my way to submit the necessary paperwork against the factory.
Negotiation is not an alternative as the simple issue of trust is non existent.
Technically my case is very strong.I have a list of faults I will post later that are all "bulletproof"  evidence.
Will keep you all updated.

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## Dave A

I'm truly sorry to hear this. It sounds like positions are hardening. 

I'd get to mediation and (if needed) arbitration as quickly as possible to prevent further escalation. It sounds like you've got a strong case and you might not see the need for urgent action - but there are bridges burning and letting them burn is never a good thing.

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## AndyD

I'm also disappointed to hear that the company stance is to put their immediate wants above safety of employees and to shun legislation. I'm sorry to hear that you're in this position but I don't see anything you could have reasonably done differently.
From the info you've given, the law will in all likelyhood find in your favour on all aspects of the dispute but that doesn't mean you won't get a hard time until judgement is passed or an arbitration ruling is made. Unfortunately, and from what you have said through no fault of your own, you're in a position where you'll have to be proactive and keep moving forward to see this matter to a conclusion.  

Good luck.

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## AndyD

*Bump*
Any news....hopefully good news greasemonkey?

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## greasemonkey

So far no news, I have a lawyer handling the dismissal. Still in progress
The other electrician tucked his tail and ran when he heard of the dispute.They now have a quote of R250 000 to repair the factory.I have not handed the dispute forms in yet,I was waiting for the COC from the other electrician.Will probably do it monday

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## Sparks

It is a pity this does not get more publicity. Maybe you should send something to "Special Assignment" so that the public can become aware of the dangers of not having respect for electricity. They might just wake up and stop trusting the COCs' supplied by estate agents which were paid for with bottles of whisky.
For standing your ground you certainly deserve a holiday compliments of UIF.

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## greasemonkey

Thx  :Wink: 
I have been contacted by the DOL (via the lawyer) so things are happening.
Heres some more to chew on









The first pic is the main incomer and db.I had to climb through a broken window to get to it! Needless to say, I broke a hole in the wall to access it.
The second pic is showing the incoming cable - no breaker/isolator or even fuses just straight onto the busbars.the other end is in the municipal sub
Third pic is the DB attached to this mess
Fourth pic is a DB that is completely packed in
Fifth pic is a 150 amp cb tied on with wire ,check the condition and size of wires in general.

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## murdock

if there is an investigation and lawyers involved...be careful what you post on a public forum.

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greasemonkey (06-Sep-10)

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## greasemonkey

> if there is an investigation and lawyers involved...be careful what you post on a public forum.


I have been at pains to not mention names or places.As for pictures ....

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## Sparks

Yes, you need to be cautious, but as you say, you have not mentioned names. The pictures could serve to enlighten someone though. Hopefully the DOL as to the state of the industry. I am certain this is not the only installation that looks like this. After the announcement that old age homes would be inspected I have not heard of one being inspected. I have however been commissioned to do one here in PE. Hopefully someone else will also take the initiative and enlighten another home as to the legal requirements and consequences of non-compliance. I just took a peak in one roofspace armed with a camera and the evidence along with a nice proposal has provided me with a good commission. You are definately setting a fine example to aspiring electricians. Your refusal to issue a COC is totally correct. Reporting it is also correct. I have no doubt that the setup there could have cost a life at some point in time had you kept quiet.

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## AndyD

> Your refusal to issue a COC is totally correct. Reporting it is also correct. I have no doubt that the setup there could have cost a life at some point in time had you kept quiet.


Anyone who issues a COC it that place should do jail time. 

I still feel disappointment that your situation has progressed to the point where it is, I don't see how even a layman can't see that the installation is dangerous. I think there's also some onus on the supply authority to disconnect the supply to premises such as this one if the installation is condemned by a licensed electrician and there is no action to remedy the faults from their side.

I empathize with your position, you need to work to pay your bills etc but there's also a moral obligation to the job you do.

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## daveob

> I think there's also some onus on the supply authority to disconnect the supply to premises such as this one if the installation is condemned by a licensed electrician and there is no action to remedy the faults from their side.


Well, maybe that idea should be encouraged. How about a system whereby an electrician can report a seriously unsafe situation, and it gets examined by the local authority within, say, 48 hours. If in the opinion of the inspector, it's deemed dangerous, the mains supply gets cut - immediately - until a valid and complete coc is received and re-inspection by the local authority.

I think that a business faced with a total shutdown would seriously look into getting their stuff back up to spec before it happened.

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## Dave A

> Well, maybe that idea should be encouraged. How about a system whereby an electrician can report a seriously unsafe situation, and it gets examined by the local authority within, say, 48 hours. If in the opinion of the inspector, it's deemed dangerous, the mains supply gets cut - immediately - until a valid and complete coc is received and re-inspection by the local authority.
> 
> I think that a business faced with a total shutdown would seriously look into getting their stuff back up to spec before it happened.


Actually, if an installation electrician or master installation electrician finds a seriously hazardous condition, they're supposed to disconnect immediately.

Not that easy when you're talking about disconnecting a client's or employer's entire supply though.

The key is probably as Andy says:



> ...and there is no action to remedy the faults from their side.

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mikilianis (13-Oct-10)

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## daveob

> Actually, if an installation electrician or master installation electrician finds a seriously hazardous condition, they're supposed to disconnect immediately.
> 
> Not that easy when you're talking about disconnecting a client's or employer's entire supply though.
> 
> The key is probably as Andy says:


I suppose that fear of loss of income / employment is often a cause for turning a blind eye - my total respect to greasemonkey for his action.

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mikilianis (13-Oct-10)

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## Dave A

It's not just the money and it's not about turning a blind eye - you want to avoid unnecessary inconvenience for the client.

I know my guys have disconnected hazardous *portions* of an electrical installation in the past, but only once with (and despite) the client strenuously objecting. Most people understand the importance of safety, they just quibble about where the line is drawn at times.

Of course it's pretty routine to let the municipality know when we see problems from their supply side. Where the municipality gets involved (typical example the meter room in a block of flats) they tend to give a notice to the owner to rectify within 30 days or something along those lines. 

A full blown immediate disconnection is pretty rare and I suspect is reserved only for the most extreme circumstances. I think what's winding most of us up in this case is this is *not* a temporary situation...

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mikilianis (13-Oct-10)

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## murdock

talk is cheap...i have enough documented evidence to shut half of durbans shopping centres down due to unsafe installation...just imagine if i did...i am already regarded as an ahole...because i use to report every illegal installations i came across...i use to report all the cases to the ECa until brian turned around and made the comment...he doesnt know what all the fuss is about...i am tired of being shipped from pillar to post to try get someone to take so form of action against illegal contractors...at the end of the day you a frowned upon as being the bad egg...nobody in durban wants to take on the challenge of policing the industry...been down this road tooo many times...you are seen as a person just trying to make trouble for others in the industry.

thats why my advice to you is becareful what you post on a public forum...i agree with what you are doing 100 % but as a person been down that road many times and used by companies to try get me to sign over cocs...i have learnt to keep my nose clean do my work to the best of my ability and record everything which is not right.

i work in lots of engineering comapnies...they are the worste...filthy dirty and as illegal as you can find...if i had to start fixing all the factories and shopping centres to bring them up to standard i could employ a whole bunch of teams and would never get to retire.

one wise old man once told me...after having a rant and rave about a customer not wanting to bring their factory up to standard...he told me to record everything take pics report it and join the CYA club...then walk away...it is not worth the headaches...which is what i have done...the law has changed the owner of the premises is responsible for the electrical installation not the electrician...so long as you havent signed anything which is not correct you have nothing to fear...and make sure everything you now do is 100 % legit.

i can tell you from experience you are fighting a loosing battle...you may not loose your job but...you will need to watch your every step...from now on because they could turn this whole thing around and start gunning you for every little thing you do...it is easy for us to write things on website...its a little more difficult to live amongst people who are gona be gunning for you.

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123 (07-Sep-10), Dave A (07-Sep-10), mikilianis (13-Oct-10)

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## Sparks

> Actually, if an installation electrician or master installation electrician finds a seriously hazardous condition, they're supposed to disconnect immediately.
> 
> Not that easy when you're talking about disconnecting a client's or employer's entire supply though.
> 
> The key is probably as Andy says:


Not so sure about "supposed" to disconnect in hazardous situation. I do however know it is required and I have disconnected where the elevated voltage on neutral was 67V.

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mikilianis (13-Oct-10)

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## AndyD

> Actually, if an installation electrician or master installation electrician finds a seriously hazardous condition, they're supposed to disconnect immediately.
> 
> Not that easy when you're talking about disconnecting a client's or employer's entire supply though.


There's often no way to disconnect a supply without council isolating the power from their side. You switch off a breaker, even with a safety lock-out device applied they restore their own power before your exhaust smoke has cleared.




> talk is cheap...i have enough documented evidence to shut half of durbans shopping centres down due to unsafe installation....................you are seen as a person just trying to make trouble for others in the industry.


Documenting and photographing is a great habit to get into. The minimum I do is to forward the info to a responsible person and get proof that they received it in the form of a return e-mail or if I present the info to them personally I get them to sign my duplicate copy. 

Taking the Dept of Labour's recent interest in electrical safety to the next step, I'm wondering if the workmans compensation department might also be interested if unsafe electrical installations are increasing their liability.




> he told me to record everything take pics report it and join the CYA club...then walk away...it is not worth the headaches...which is what i have done...


I think if you just sit on the info and it's a genuine hazard to the users of the installation then you're becoming part of the problem as well.   




> so long as you havent signed anything which is not correct you have nothing to fear.


 The blinkers on, see no evil approach doesn't circumvent the responsibility you have as a professional for safety. I can honestly say I have never ignored anything that's blatantly unsafe, there have been occasions where I've insisted on partial disconnections of an installation. I'm probably lucky in that I don't see these kind of installations very regularly.




> i can tell you from experience you are fighting a loosing battle...you may not loose your job but...you will need to watch your every step...from now on because they could turn this whole thing around and start gunning you for every little thing you do...it is easy for us to write things on website...its a little more difficult to live amongst people who are gona be gunning for you.


If you're operating in the interests of safety then the law is on your side. They can gun all they damn well want to.

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mikilianis (13-Oct-10)

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## murdock

the most important questions is can you afford the court battle...time wasted in court...money required for lawyers when the comapnies sues you backsides from here to the south pole...because that is pretty much where you gona end up if you take on a big corporation...bankrupt before it even gets to court...unless of course you have a huge trust fund to waste.

one thing i have learnt here in SA...everyone knows everyone...especially if you do something somebody doesnt like...word travels faster than the smoke can clear from your exhaust pipe.

most companies we deal with...setup programs to run over a period of time to attend to issues on an inspection report...this program could take 2 years or more to complete...with cost implications of millions of rands......they are not done over night...if you are talking about domestic installtions thats a different ball game.

as an inspector...you are limited with good solid factual resources and sound ethical backing...nobody wants to accept the responsibity....and now with the customer being the one to pay the bill for the investigation by the AIA or dol how many do you think are actually gona take place?

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mikilianis (13-Oct-10)

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## AndyD

I keep coming back to this thread hoping to see a happy ending......

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## murdock

so do i andy but the reality is the budget and the comimment of the idividuals working in the industry...i am not saying all electricians are bad...but sometimes companies put individuals in a position like in this case where you have a choice either just do it or find another job.

the wise old man told me something else the other day which got me thinking...he said i should rather just do my work to the best of my ability then bring it to the customers attention that there are other issues which need to be sorted out rather than going in with an aggressive..."you must fix everything because its illegal right now" and slowly but surely fix things as the budget alows rather than spooking the customer with a hefty quote to fix everything in one hit...it is working...do litle bits at a time hopefully eventually it will all be sorted out...without the building burning down or killing someone...a little progress is better than no progress 

i think every day of ways to improve this industry without becoming the bad person...ideas like we are doing with the greener world...until people change the the way they see there electricity on their property...most have the attitude that it has worked you years why now suddenly you come along and its all bad...p*ss off...it works fine...we will fix it when it breaks...maintenance is a thing of the past for most companies and individuals...i have the odd customer who still do minor maintenance but very few and decreasing...its difficult to stay competitve if you are adding money to your running cost to compete with people who arent...most peoples attitude is not to be in bussiness in 20 years time...its to make money now...

and unfortunatly you need to go to the training centres and you will see the problem starts there...

the goverment institution like eskom...transnet...durban metro etc need to get the training centres up and running again.

unfortunately the only way to stop the rot in the industry is to enforce heavy penalties...in saying that i think the reason nobody is enforcing anything is because who do you procecute...

the owner...who turns around and says but i dont know about electricity so i employ people who do.

the electrician...who has no control over what happens on a site once he leaves it and the owner uses pirate contractors...or the latest thing is how the electrician interprets the rules is the excuse...realy people if an installation is dangerous why could you have not used comen sense...

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## Dave A

It certainly helps if we remember we're working with people, and they often respond more positively to gentle guidance than brutal negative comment.

Great technicians don't automatically have great people skills. When you can get the two together, it makes for a winning combination  :Wink:

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## greasemonkey

> I keep coming back to this thread hoping to see a happy ending......


 :Smile:  AndyD, I have the best ending, I got to spend quality time with my family. I had never realised just how much I neglected them for the sake of work

As to the company , we have parted ways but not finished with each other. I agree with what you guys said.I probably went in too aggressively and demanded immediate change rather than a gradual turnover. However the intimidation and victimisation that arose kind of closed the door to any form of reasonable compromise. I will post details of the case as soon as its public.
Bruce

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AndyD (19-Oct-10), Dave A (15-Oct-10)

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## murdock

i wish you luck and hope you find something soon...

i had a feeling this was gona be the outcome...been there done that...been bullied by companies even as the owner of my bussiness.

thats why i have learnt to put blinkers on and do what makes money to look after my family...everything else is not worth the hassle anymore.

until the dol actually get out and take control of their responsibilty you are fighting a loosing battle.

isolating illegal connection and unsafe installations should be the electricity suppliers responsibility not electrical contractors...we dont have the backing of an authourity big enough to take on the challenge...or law suit you will be faced with if you cause loss of income or damage to equipment resulting from isolating a companies power supply.

its hard enoug trying to get information regarding the sabs book imagine trying to fight a law suit...its not worth the hassle.

the only way this industry will start heading in the right direction is if a factory catches on fire and burns all the people to death inside the factory maybe that would cause a big enough stir to make someone in the dol realise there is a problem in the industry....something like this miner issue...now suddenly every one is all over the mines like a bad rash...unions etc...until it blows over then it will be back to bussiness as usual...

very sad but i have been in this industry for almost 30 years and all i can see is it getting worse...i heard a couple of weeks ago about dol members going around to companies and checking safety etc but even thats cgone quiet  :Rant1: 

i dont know why i even waste my time writting these threads...oh well at least i get it off my chest...i put a stronger door on my office so i cant punch holes thru it anymore....it saves my fingers typing  :Big Grin:

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## mikilianis

Don't despair at the end of the day it is not worth it ,like you said the main thing is to look after your family.and you cant do that if you mess your health up trying to correct the wrongs of the corrupt,inefficient and for want of a better description, *incompetent*, system
Mike

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## murdock

i heard today on the radio they are cracking down on contractors in toti....my question is what about the rest of the country...and will they do follow up inspections...they seem to come out guns blazing then you dont hear anything for months even years then suddenly they do a swoop again...whipy doooo daaa.

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## Sparks

I take my hat off to Greasemonkey. He stood his ground and did the right thing. He will get his due recognition eventually. There are people who would rather employ him above a chancer who willy nilly signs off installations. Had he signed off and something went wrong he would be held liable and the company would turn their back on him. Afterall, he is the "Accredited" one. You can walk proud Greasemonkey. I salute you and so do all who care about other peoples lives. The Lord will Bless you for your righteousness. You were paid to learn the right way and by doing it you have proven yourself to be a worthy man.

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