# General Business Category > Technology Forum > [Question] ADSL speeds.

## Marq

I questioned my isp as a result of getting slow downloads.
Did a test via speedtest.net before downloading, and during downloading.
The result was 5.1mbps before and 1,4mbps during.

The answer I received 8 days (they promise 8 hours) later is as follows:-




> Speed test only show the current available speed
> if you do a speed test during a download you will only get what is left
> Please bare in mind slow download can come from the server you connect 
> to


Can anybody out there confirm whether this is a valid answer or not?

To me it looks like they are throttling despite their denial thereof.

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## irneb

If there's nothing wrong on their side, then the answer is a possibility. Download speed is affected by many things, the entire internet is a set of interlinked connections - any one of which might form a bottle neck, starting with your PC's setup, through your router/modem, to the ISP's local exchange, through whomsoever is providing them with a link to SA's international link(s), and then the same applies for the server from which you're downloading. The problem is an internet connection is not just affected by your ISP, it could be them, but they're just one link in a chain which might span hundreds of connections.

As for speed test during a download: Yes, that's absolutely true if you've got no shaping done to your connection. Shaping means that some types of connections are given priority and others might be throttled. E.g. your email might be given a higher priority than web pages, and downloads (ftp/torrent/etc) might be throttled to only use 50% of the connection's maximum speed. Shaping is usually setup from your ISP's side, but may also be at any one of the connections along the line. And it might be setup to check for various things, usually the port number is used (e.g. web pages go through port 80, 20/21 for ftp, 443 encrypted web pages (e.g. online banking), etc. etc. etc. E.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of...P_port_numbers

If there's no shaping, then all connections are given the same priority and none are throttled. That means any 2 concurrent connections share equally from your link - thus the maximum speed is divided by 2 for each. And since a speed-test is literally just a download followed by an upload - timing how long it took, it would be as if you're doing 2 downloads at one time.

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Marq (12-Feb-14)

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## IanF

Mark
We are on capped and have noticed the webpages etc are not that responsive anymore so maybe it is a capacity problem with the overseas connection.
Also when we watch Netflix it does buffer a lot when you start a show then is fine.

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Marq (12-Feb-14)

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## Marq

I switched isp's in December and have noticed a slow down which is why I queried it.

I did a trace route (tracert) -it seems the main slow down is from my router through to the local telkom exchange and then again from the local exchange to telkom jhbcore. So if I am analysing this correctly, the slow story is happening in the local Telkom arena. 
The speeds through the other ip addresses seem to be slightly slower but not affected that much. 

So assumption could be that Telkom is having a local volume problem and they have not got their optic fibre story up and running properly.

I am not sure at what stage the isp's have control, but again I can only assume that they are controlling the local connections and that the connections are being throttled.

Are there any other tests that one can do to highlight the source of the problem?

The responsive service from the isp's is just ridiculous. Having just changed because of this being one of the problems - I have seen two isp's battling first hand now - They do not appear to have the man power to follow up their tickets and the people they have on board do not seem to have a skill set that can help. I hope this is not a problem that is going to follow us into the future.

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## irneb

You could test if some stuff are throttled/shaped: http://www.howtogeek.com/165481/how-...et-connection/

If you're working through a 3rd party ISP (i.e. something like a "CheapAsSand ADSL") it is actually just renting bandwidth from Telkom and then reselling it to you. Telkom might be throttling that ISP's bandwidth due to their fair-use-policies, same as when you buy an uncapped connection direct from Telkom, they might even have a contract stipulating that they will only be give a specified maximum speed throughput from the 1st byte. Over and above that, it might also be that the local connection is overloaded - I've seen this with Telkom in the Sandton area quite a lot.

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Marq (12-Feb-14)

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## Marq

It seems to be a common scenario around the world.
Heres an article explaining the state in the US.
I also know that they have the same complaint in London - only there, they are supposed to get 80mbps and complaining that they are only getting 25. I reckon 25 would do us just fine over here.
At the moment we are unable to verify anything so will have to give the isp's the benefit of the doubt and blame it on local Telkom congestion.
The roll out of fibre optic has been slowed down I understand as a result of the inability to get power sources to the new network nodes that have been installed by telkom. So now its eskoms fault.  :Wink:  

The rollout of the 100mbps lines (commercial fire to the home) have been extended to the end of this year. [Read - maybe this year...if you are lucky] It would seem that we will be playing catch up forever.

Meanwhile..........




> _The UK's fastest
> 
> Open up the field a little, to less widely available connections, and the UK's fastest broadband is a lot faster.
> 
> 330Mb speeds from BT's fibre to the premises (FTTP) connections, available on demand, can be accessed from 124 exchanges around the country as of December 2013 and will become enabled in just over 300 by March 2014_.

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## irneb

There is of course this: http://mybroadband.co.za/news/adsl/9...n-the-way.html

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## Marq

This just in from isp 



> Fantastic news, the fastest adsl service in the country just got faster. We have upgraded your account to 10Mb/s.
> 
>  Take this month to trial your new speed and package, the upgrade is absolutely free for the remainder of this month. (Please make sure you reboot your router before you start testing, some routers can only detect the new speed after a reboot).


Whoopeee - Firstly that is what I thought I was paying for.
but secondly and more importantly - my speed is still the same as nothing has changed down the road here at Telkom.

So thanks for nothing.

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## irneb

> So thanks for nothing.


Now that is painful! As if the speed which you bought is now suddenly something "new" which you only get for the first month (thereafter probably have to pay extra for) and then to rub extra salt in the promised "new" speed doesn't even happen! I feel your pain!

I'm sorry to say that I've yet to see any of these "new" speeds actually reach their promised potential (even if there's very little congestion - i.e. few people actually using it). The best I've seen as yet was through NeoTel's fibre optic line (though excessively expensive), where it was advertised as a 20MB/s and we got a minimum of 12MB/s - average around 16MB/s, only once in a blue-moon would it even go above 19.

The Telkom double 4MB/s ADSL line we had prior never reached above 500kB/s (note bits not bytes) in all of the 5 years we had it - average was around 130kB/s (i.e. as if it was an old ISDN line), sometimes it would even go down to below 10kB/s (i.e. similar to analogue modems of the 80s). Were always simply told: "That is a maximum figure, we cannot guarantee any minimum no matter how much you pay". That after they've wasted at least a month each time on a complain from us, by every time trying to imply it's "our" fault, our equipment / settings / connections - only to replace all of it and still getting the same molasses speeds, then getting their test equipment out there and finding that their own equipment also get similar snail-pace throughput. This was in the Sandton CBD area, all I can say is ADSL over there is much the same as the N1/N3 during peak traffic - i.e. more like a parking lot than a highway. I've heard of others getting decent speeds, though no-one ever getting the max as advertised.

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## AndyD

What type of downloads are giving you problems Marq? (Are they P2P or direct downloads etc?)

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## Dave A

> I did a trace route (tracert) -it seems the main slow down is from my router through to the local telkom exchange and then again from the local exchange to telkom jhbcore. So if I am analysing this correctly, the slow story is happening in the local Telkom arena. 
> The speeds through the other ip addresses seem to be slightly slower but not affected that much.


Marq, you and I route through the same exchange, and I've noticed a marked drop in responsiveness over (approximately) the last two weeks. The good news is today it seems to be back to normal, so perhaps there was an infrastructure problem and it's now sorted. 

I know the Dbn to Jhb leg runs pretty much on the rivet at the best of times and anything that hurts throughput tends to have a pretty dramatic impact on performance.

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## Marq

Andy, It seems to be mainly direct downloads. Cybersmart assure me that they do no throttling or tuning.

What I dont understand, Dave is that for about a week (about three/four weeks back) I had speeds of about 8.5 and the local technician that has been working in our area for many years told me the lines should handle at least 12. 
But it was Cybersmart who told me the line at that speed (8.5) was unstable and they had reduced it back to 5.
I do not understand who is doing what - do isp's have control of the whole line from computer point to exchange as well?
and what does 'unstable' mean? I thought it was working great.

Dave, they have also been working in my area on something with many teckies down the main man holes and many vehicles lined up at the various exchange sub stations. I was told they were connecting the optic fibre stuff. So perhaps that was creating a problem on the existing infrastructure. They have now gone - so hopefully you are right and we are back to normal awaiting the final big switch over sometime in the future........... :Zzzzz:

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## AndyD

> do isp's have control of the whole line from computer point to exchange as well?
> and what does 'unstable' mean? I thought it was working great.


Yes, the ISP can control line speed. I guess unstable in the context they're using it would mean there's high transfer errors or dropped packets due to noise or attenuation caused by poor line infrastructure or long line distances to the exchange.

I'm with Cybersmart and I've not had any problems with speed in the past or even now. I have unshaped and I test it regularly to see if they're throttling or prioritising protocols and in all fairness I've never caught them doing it. Most of my larger filesize downloads are via bittorrent protocols via VPN but I direct downloaded a 115Mb PDF file this morning and it took < 3 mins.

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## Marq

Thanks for the input Andy.
I am fairly sure my speeds are slower than I had before but cannot be sure as to whether its the isp or telkom. It seems that its telkoms local network, but being slowed down more than they should by the isp.
The one thing though thats really annoying is Cybersmart's lack of response. They ignore emails and have taken over a week on average to answer some of my questions. I left the previous guys as a result of their lack of interest, not sure if I am worse off at the moment.
Time will tell, but they are on short notice so far.

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## AndyD

Weird, all the queries I've ever sent them I immediately get a reference number by return email and a response within 24h. They can actually become annoying because there's usually at least one and sometimes as many as three follow-up phonecalls to make sure the response can be closed on their system after it's been dealt with. Maybe it's a difference in service levels between areas. I'd give you good odds on it being a Telkom issue, I could only suggest you become a pest and keep reporting the issue until you get a satisfactory result.

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## twinscythe12332

Hi
When doing your speed test, are you connecting to a server in the region that you are downloading from? International traffic has been up to crap since telkom started rolling out their connection upgrades.
 You aren't the only ones, if that is any comfort.
http://mybroadband.co.za/news/adsl/9...-problems.html

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## Marq

Here is my last tracerts -The first one is while downloading - the second is with no downloads. 
The main difference or problem seems to be the link from durban to jhb. There is not much difference in the international speeds.
I am not sure how to read this but it sure looks like the differences are in the local areas.
The speedtest is from my machine to the local server - apparently its in ballito?

My speed went up to 8.6 for few days after I bitched but has been reduced to about 5 on average which is lower than before. Today its at 6.1. Seems there is no consistency.
As soon as as I download anything - say a you tube file - it goes down to 4.4
Download second you tube at same time, it goes down to 3.9 and so it will go down.
I am not sure why - but thought that the speed would be the same and it would just sort out the packets coming through (ie the new download itself may halve the time it takes to come through but the speed would be contestant.)

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## Marq

This blame game has been going on since the start of the computer age.
All the techies scratching heads and all the users frustrated and not knowing where to turn to.

It used to be ...its the software .....no its definitely hardware.
Hardware seems to have been replaced by .....network - that great nebulous pie in the sky area that has no home base or person in charge of any one section that we as users can turn to and actually get an answer. 
Then suddenly some one somewhere along the chain flicks a switch or ticks a box and hey presto ...its all working again. Wasnt a problem in the first place - you users just dont know how to use the system. :Fence: 
Dont know how or why or where but its working and we can all individually or as a group along this chain receive credit and ra ra's.

Then another guy comes along and ticks the same box and  :Rant1:  ........so the cycle goes.

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## Justloadit

Could it be our new age techies don't actually understand how these systems work, after all 30% and over is considered a pass.

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## irneb

> As soon as as I download anything - say a you tube file - it goes down to 4.4
> Download second you tube at same time, it goes down to 3.9 and so it will go down.


As I described before, the speed test is itself a download (it simply downloads and then uploads some arb file/generated data and times it to find out how fast it went). Your line doesn't become faster in total because you're downloading more - it's like a water pipe: if you open one tap the water comes out at a certain speed (usually maximum the pipe can handle), when you open a second tap the 1st's speed drops (because the pipe's max hasn't increased by magic), if you open a 3rd both the 1st 2 drops in their speed (same non-magic pipe).

If you're downloading something else at the same time that you do a speed test, it means you're only getting a test showing how much is left of your download after sharing your line between 2 concurrent downloads. If you test while downloading 2 other stuff, then the test reveals how much is left when sharing your line between 3. These might not be equal to each other, it works more like a dif on a car - i.e. the one which downloads easier gets more speed. Thus it seems as if the test's download is easier than the youtube download and the 2nd download. The drop in the speedtest's speed due to the 1st youtube and the 2nd download shows that the drop is not proportional.

If you want to figure out exactly how much your line is getting in total you need to add the speed test's result to the speed the youtube is getting as well as the speed the 2nd download is getting. It's this total which you should gripe about, not the shared speed between downloads - that's always going to be less than the maximum. That's why you should stop all other downloads (including stuff like emails) while performing a speed test - it's the easiest way to try and get an accurate maximum speed test.

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## irneb

The difference between the tests on different days (if you didn't do  them with various other downloads happening) would mean there's  something else which is slowing the line down on that day. E.g. more people connected taday than yesterday means the main line shared between yourself and them is more congested. To use the water pipe analogy again: it would be as if your neighbour is filling his pool and you find that your shower head is now only dribbling.

Another thing that might be causing it is some restriction on the line, i.e. something went wrong somewhere. Again using the pipe - it's as if the pipe sprang a leak somewhere, or the plumbers are working on it and turned it off or rerouted your house (even temporarily) to use another pipe while they're doing something to the usual pipe.

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Marq (20-Feb-14)

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## Marq

Understood - thanks for explaining it to me again, now I have it.

If I was getting 4bar of pressure at the front of the house, I was expecting the reading still to be 4bar at the front of the house, even if I had all the taps on, which it would be. This is not the same instrument.

Now looking at those tracert results - these numbers represent the pressure outside the house from the reservoir . Are they the same as the speedtest results?

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## irneb

> Now looking at those tracert results - these numbers represent the pressure outside the house from the reservoir . Are they the same as the speedtest results?


Those are measuring the "ping time" or "time-to-live" (TTL), otherwise called latency. Any internet connection can be tested for 2 things: baud-rate and latency. The baud-rate is what's measured by the speed test. To explain the difference:

Think of an internet connection like a telephone call:
Latency is how long you wait after dialing before the other person picks upBaud-rate is how many words you can speak per time interval other after the person answered, and how fast they can understand such.

Those latency tests show how many milliseconds it took for each link in your internet connection to the destination server took to "answer the call". I'm not sure exactly how tracert formats its results, why there are 3 columns showing ms times I'm not too sure, and it's also not clear if those figures are running totals or latency per hop (I think it's a running total though). It also shows where the main issues are. E.g. here's mine (local IP's and domains redacted for security purposes):

```
C:\Users\Irne>tracert www.bbc.com

Tracing route to www-bbc-com.bbc.net.uk [212.58.246.94]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

  1    <1 ms    <1 ms    <1 ms  #######
  2    <1 ms    <1 ms    <1 ms  #######
  3     1 ms     1 ms     1 ms  #######
  4     3 ms     2 ms     3 ms  #######
  5     2 ms     2 ms     2 ms  #######
  6     2 ms     2 ms     2 ms  ix-0-3-0-0.tcore1.JSO-Johannesburg.as6453.net [2
16.6.55.37]
  7   177 ms   178 ms   177 ms  41.206.178.2
  8   138 ms   138 ms   138 ms  195.219.214.25
  9   179 ms   178 ms   178 ms  80.231.158.1
 10   176 ms     *      175 ms  if-1-3.tcore1.SV8-Highbridge.as6453.net [80.231.
158.30]
 11   173 ms   174 ms     *     80.231.138.22
 12   176 ms   176 ms   176 ms  if-2-2.tcore1.L78-London.as6453.net [80.231.131.
 13   174 ms   174 ms     *     80.231.130.86
 14   173 ms   173 ms   173 ms  80.231.154.17
 15   177 ms   177 ms   177 ms  80.231.153.66
 16   175 ms   175 ms   175 ms  ae-70-70.csw2.Paris1.Level3.net [4.69.168.126]
 17   176 ms   176 ms   176 ms  ae-71-71.ebr1.Paris1.Level3.net [4.69.161.81]
 18   173 ms   173 ms   173 ms  4.69.143.101
 19   173 ms   174 ms   173 ms  4.69.153.118
 20   173 ms   173 ms   173 ms  4.69.166.5
 21   175 ms   175 ms   175 ms  212.113.14.222
 22     *        *        *     Request timed out.
 23     *        *        *     Request timed out.
 24   174 ms   174 ms   174 ms  ae0.er01.cwwtf.bbc.co.uk [132.185.254.93]
 25   175 ms   175 ms   175 ms  132.185.255.165
 26   178 ms   177 ms   177 ms  bbc-vip015.cwwtf.bbc.co.uk [212.58.246.94]

Trace complete.
```

This is using my office connection through a NeoTel 50MB/s fibre optic connection. Notice the latency jumps up significantly for the first hop to an international server (the Highbridge server). And most of the delays and timeouts happens overseas.

In your case though it seems the link from your local exchange to the jhb server takes longer to answer than my entire list of servers combined, for one of the tests, the other seemed to work quite well (anything below 100ms [1/10 of a second] is considered reasonable to good). Though your only timeout happened somewhere in BBC's own servers.

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Marq (20-Feb-14)

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## irneb

My baud-rate test though is a whole different matter. Local inside JHB:

Some other tests only show downloads of around 28MBits/s and uploads around 6MBits/s.

When running the test to a Cape Town server it fails on Latency. Seems there's a huge problem within SA.

And to an international connection:

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## irneb

> If I was getting 4bar of pressure at the front of the house, I was expecting the reading still to be 4bar at the front of the house, even if I had all the taps on, which it would be. This is not the same instrument.


It is a similar instrument, because the speed test is as if you've placed the pressure gauge on one of the taps inside your house - not at the water meter at your gate.

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Marq (20-Feb-14)

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## Dave A

> When running the test to a Cape Town server it fails on Latency. Seems there's a huge problem within SA.


Yep - and its name is Telkom  :Stick Out Tongue: 

Marq - I'm actually stunned at your one set of results to the jhb.core server - I think the fastest I've ever got is around the 135 ms mark. Mostly it's closer to 185 ms.

Irneb - I'm *seriously* jealous.

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## irneb

> Irneb - I'm *seriously* jealous.


Not the price though ... it's around R30k/month for the uncapped version. I suppose that's mitigated since it's shared between 70 people. We only recently (2 months ago) upgraded as we had some serious issues with the Teklom 10MB/s line ... it seems all over JHB Telkom's ADSL is simply stupidly slow - I've previously had dial-up speeds in Sandton, now in Bryanston it's not any better. Even my Vodacom phone gets a minimum of 4MBits/sec (sometimes nearing 10Mb/s) while every single ADSL I have seen here never gets more than 1MB/s (no matter what the "rating" is supposed to be).

That seems to indicate that Telkom IS the culprit: whenever your ISP needs to link through some TelHell line your speed WILL drop! As another sample: Last week we issued our Revit model to a local Online Document Management site (located inside JHB) for the other consultants on the project to use. The model is 200MBytes in size - it took 15 seconds to upload (near LAN speeds). But using an overseas site took 20 minutes for the same model. Not sure if that tcore bridge is one of telkom's or even one of those others.

Strangely today it seems perfectly fine: Testing to Telkom's own SAIX server (in Randburg) gets near max speeds today (upload is seriously awesome - similar to a WiFi LAN):


Linking to Telkom's Durban site gives similar speeds (ping's a bit less though):


To CT also:


Even to a site in London seems to work decently (ping's a bit high to my liking though):


It must've been something which was hogging the system yesterday?

That said: I know my sister (in Dubai) and a friend in the US has even better speeds than this from their residences. For less than a telkom 4MB/s line rental. We're still being screwed silly in SA, poor speed priced at an arm and a leg (and the rest of your family's limbs).

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## AndyD

Irneb, I've drawn up a list of things I'd like you to download for me please...  :Wink:

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## irneb

> Irneb, I've drawn up a list of things I'd like you to download for me please...


Yeah! But then how to get it to CT inside this year?  :Yikes:

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