# Social Category > South African Politics Forum >  Avaaz and e tolling

## Dave S

I have signed the Avaaz petition to prevent the e-tolling of Gauteng's freeways, the link is below. 

Although I am not entirely against tolling, the ridiculous "get-rich-quick" prices that are imposed on an already tight economy are just not acceptable, if they were asking for a R0.03c or R0.04c per Km it would be a more reasonable request, after all, once the tolling is in place it will never stop and the price will just keep increasing, even after the debt is paid-up.

https://secure.avaaz.org/en/south_africa_etoll/?copy

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Citizen X (14-Aug-13), wynn (14-Aug-13)

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## wynn

follow this link and get as many people you know to also follow and help get rid of e tolling?

https://secure.avaaz.org/en/south_africa_etoll/?copy

President Zuma:
We call on you not to sign the Transport Laws and Related Matters Amendment Bill, which was developed and written without proper transparency with the public. E-tolls on Gauteng's freeways are a burden to taxpayers who can't afford the tolls, but need the roads to go about their lives and get to their jobs. We urge you to kill the e-toll bill.

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## wynn

Oops! I also posted the avaaz link in another post, probably best because more people will click away  :Wink:

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## Citizen X

Signed :Wink:

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## Dave A

> Oops! I also posted the avaaz link in another post, probably best because more people will click away


Or someone from the admin team might merge the two threads  :Wink:

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## Didditmiself

Although I am not entirely against tolling,

Actually I am totally against any form of tolling - makes no difference to me whether it's electronic or the 'drive up to the toll-gate' method. I don't see why I have to pay three times for my having to use the road. Firstly my road licence, then a portion of my income tax and then a fkn e-toll! Once again the guavament went ahead without consultation and thought we are morons who would be intimidated and that we'd simply pay up. Latest idiotic proposals: ban all alcohol advertising;(advertising hardly increases sales) ban alcohol sales on Sunday; (people will buy on Saturdays) enforce a zero limit if you drive; (Catholics will no longer be able to have Communion wine) make purchasing used spares from scrap-yards illegal; (close dozens of scrapyards who do not sell junk (only 'used' in most cases) and increase unemployment); ban smoking everywhere (virtually impossible - Prohibition in the States did little to stop the distilling and consumption of liquor).
I'm off the topic but basically I've pointed out that just recently (and over the years), countless proposals have emanated from the ANC and if they're not around any more (the proposals) it's because they were unworkable and were scrapped. 

Let's continue the pressure re: E Tolling. If we do, it will eventually be scrapped because the ANC will finally realise that it's an unworkable system that will cost more to collect and operate than it's worth. They will have little choice but to find other means to sort out the Pension Fund mess that they created when they decided to borrow from it to put up guarantees to Kapsch Austria to finance the system. :Rant1:

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## Dave A

> I don't see why I have to pay three times for my having to use the road. Firstly my road licence, then a portion of my income tax and then a fkn e-toll!


You left out the road levy built into the fuel price, which is far from chicken feed either  :No:

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Chrisjan B (16-Aug-13)

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## Hermes14

From what I have heard the government's pension fund is in the etoll system.
If the etoll collapses, the government's pension fund collapses.

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## Dave S

> Actually I am totally against any form of tolling - makes no difference to me whether it's electronic or the 'drive up to the toll-gate' method. I don't see why I have to pay three times for my having to use the road. Firstly my road licence, then a portion of my income tax and then a fkn e-toll! Once again the guavament went ahead without consultation and thought we are morons who would be intimidated and that we'd simply pay up. Latest idiotic proposals: ban all alcohol advertising;(advertising hardly increases sales) ban alcohol sales on Sunday; (people will buy on Saturdays) enforce a zero limit if you drive; (Catholics will no longer be able to have Communion wine) make purchasing used spares from scrap-yards illegal; (close dozens of scrapyards who do not sell junk (only 'used' in most cases) and increase unemployment); ban smoking everywhere (virtually impossible - Prohibition in the States did little to stop the distilling and consumption of liquor).
> I'm off the topic but basically I've pointed out that just recently (and over the years), countless proposals have emanated from the ANC and if they're not around any more (the proposals) it's because they were unworkable and were scrapped. 
> 
> Let's continue the pressure re: E Tolling. If we do, it will eventually be scrapped because the ANC will finally realise that it's an unworkable system that will cost more to collect and operate than it's worth. They will have little choice but to find other means to sort out the Pension Fund mess that they created when they decided to borrow from it to put up guarantees to Kapsch Austria to finance the system.


I digress, you are quite right, we do pay too much tax in the form of tolls, levies, etc. The other problem I see is that the tolls they want just don't bare any relationship to other tolls, for instance, a trip from JHB to DBN will set you back R174 (I think that was the figure) over a distance of 600Kms, and these are privately managed highways. In the same breath a trip of 40Kms in Gauteng will set you back around R88.00, if not more? and these are gobblemunt managed highways.

You've changed my mind, I am totally against tolling in any form. If our gobblemunt weren't so "hell bent" on STEALING from the COUNTRY, they would have enough money to build highways and wouldn't need additional tolls, levies, and taxes...

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Chrisjan B (17-Aug-13)

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## ericlowry

Dear Jay ZEE, why don't you stick your e toll where the sun don't shine. I will NOT put my number plate on my bike so you forget about ripping me off.

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## Dave A

> From what I have heard the government's pension fund is in the etoll system.


 :Hmmm:  That might explain something. The other day I heard mention that the civil servants pension fund's liquid reserve is much lower than it should be just at the moment.

The official response was - No cause for alarm. But it does make you wonder...

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## Didditmiself

I already mentioned that the Pension Fund would be affected by the collapse of the e-tolling system, in my post a couple of days ago.....

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## Dave A

No slight intended - just picked the last post on the subject. Judging by the dateline, it must have been an article I read over the weekend then, because it certainly wasn't in my head when I replied to your post.

The delay in e-tolling must be taking it's toll
 :Embarrassment:

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## ericlowry

Correct, the pension fund is being used to fund the etoll. Hit them in the pocket and Sanral will have to talk to the public. Let's all stick together and refuse to be bullied by them. Don't pay the etoll, we've already paid for the roads.

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## Didditmiself

No slight taken Dave! :Smile:

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Dave A (22-Aug-13)

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## Didditmiself

It will be interesting to see how this pans out: Currently in the Midrand area there is a huge retail development that has just started (Waterfall Park) - somewhere in the billions - not millions, of Rands - and due for completion in 2 or 3 years. Now the N1 (commonly known as the Ben Schoeman highway) runs right through this development (which will be on either side of the highway). Sanral have their ugly gantries all along this route. I'm sure that when the plans were drawn up in 2006, the late Dullah Omar and his cronies must've known about this project and they would've been licking their lips when they realized how much additional traffic would pass under their gantries as a result.
If, in the unlikely event that Sanral manage to force the system into operation, warts and all, how the hell are they going to properly administer all the additional traffic that will pass under the gantries? Even if everybody buys an e tag and there are no further disruptions, anyone who works or travels on the N1 will attest that when you see the cars coming over the hill  it's like a Tsunami with 6 lanes of traffic coming towards you. At night it looks like a huge moving Christmas tree with thousands of lights!! Pity our photographer Neville Bailey can't take one of his excellent pics to show others what it looks like!
So, like I said, it will be interesting to see how the palookas collect 'revenue' (and prosecute defaulters) when the JHB municipality can't even read electrical meters and send out accounts properly and that is like chicken-feed in comparison to reading in excess of 100,000 car number-plates a day on just 1 road!!!  :Banghead:

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## Dave S

> ...reading in excess of 100,000 car number-plates a day on just 1 road!!!


I think that is maybe the "per hour" figure during peak times, the figure per day is probably closer to having an extra zero, the N1/N3 interchange is the busiest in Africa, with all 20x lanes converging onto the N1. Going through the gantries at the point you mentioned are 12x lanes (6x North, 6x South). Just to emphasise the point to those that don't travel this way.

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## Justloadit

Micros and computers will have no problem logging the data, as this is all electronic. Each camera has its own CPU, and running at millions of instructions per second, will make it an easy picking. Effectively, it would be the same as handling the GSM mobile platform, there are millions of simultaneous calls, and the systems cope.

What SANRAL did not expect was the huge resistance from the folk who use the roads daily, that's where the bottle neck will be, physically collecting the cash, that is the reason they wanted the user's bank accounts, so that they could automate the process, and skim their loot out your account, even before you passed the gantry. 

So the more difficult we make the physical collection of the actual money, the more bogged down the collection system will become.

Sending out invoices via email, or even sending out an SMS every time you pass a gantry is really no hard work for automated systems as it is all electronic, however, if they do not have your email address, or do not have your cell phone number, and only have your postal address, then a physical invoice has to be printed, which means that a printer has to be manned, and then take the invoice and insert it into an envelope, and get it to the Post office for delivery. Now the invoice and envelop can also be automated, as some municipal bills are done, or as ARTO traffic fines are done, BUT the POST Office will not be able to cope with the mountain of mail to deliver, and add to this the regular strikes, and SANRAL is deep in the poo.

Have you not noted the current advertising? they are trying to brainwash the folks in the best payment methods, as they have realised that they will not get their money in fast enough. Just as a side note, they have spent R85 million in advertising.

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## wynn

Will they be able to stick it to you via the municipality when you try to re-licence your car??

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## Justloadit

It's very possible, but then they are making the municipality a collecting agent for their fees. Not sure if that will stick, cos the municipality has no participation in the eToll income, so why would they bother.

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## Dave S

> Will they be able to stick it to you via the municipality when you try to re-licence your car??


I heard that this would be illegal, not sure? The municipal licensing is governmental and Sanral is a private organisation, surely there would need to be a bill passed to allow this to happen?

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## IanF

> if they do not have your email address, or do not have your cell phone number, and only have your postal address, then a physical invoice has to be printed, which means that a printer has to be manned, and then take the invoice and insert it into an envelope, and get it to the Post office for delivery. Now the invoice and envelop can also be automated, as some municipal bills are done, or as ARTO traffic fines are done, BUT the POST Office will not be able to cope with the mountain of mail to deliver, and add to this the regular strikes, and SANRAL is deep in the poo.
> 
> Have you not noted the current advertising? they are trying to brainwash the folks in the best payment methods, as they have realised that they will not get their money in fast enough. Just as a side note, they have spent R85 million in advertising.


This I feel will be the biggest sanral problem. I haven't registered and have no intention of doing it yet. Will wait and see if SANRAL becomes reasonable.

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## Mike C

> Will wait and see if SANRAL becomes reasonable.


The trouble with them becoming "reasonable" is that once they have everyone on the treadmill, they just hike the price up every few months. 

One the hook is set (sorry about mixing the metaphors), there is not much one can do after that.

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Chrisjan B (27-Sep-13)

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## Dave S

I got this e-mail this morning, it seems the ANC will do as they please, despite the courts.* 

Dear Petitioner,*

  Kindly see our reaction to President Zuma signing the E-Toll Bill. The fight continues.
  Best regards
[IMG]file:///C:\Users\User\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\c  lip_image001.png[/IMG]

_We don't just talk, we fight for your rights._


   
*MEDIA RELEASE*        SUBJECT         :           *E-toll Bill: ANC playing cat and mouse with public and intimidating Court of Appeals - FF Plus considering legal action*
    ISSUED BY      :           Adv. Anton Alberts
    CAPACITY       :           FF Plus parliamentary spokesperson: Transport
    DATE               :           26 September 2013    
  President Jacob Zuma’s signing of the contentious E-toll Bill shows his contempt for the feelings of the South African public and the Freedom Front Plus is of the opinion that there is a political game tied to this issue, Adv. Anton Alberts, the FF Plus’ parliamentary spokesperson on Transport says.

    According to Adv. Alberts, there are probably three reasons for the president’s decision to have given the green light to the Bill.

    The first is that Zuma is possibly planning to use the e-tolls as election gimmick. This puts him in a position to announce drastic cuts in the toll fees shortly before the election or to put a moratorium in place until after the election in order to mislead the public to vote for the ANC.

    In so doing the ANC could play cat and mouse with the South African public in a sinister manner.

    Secondly, the president sent a message with the signing of the Bill to the judges of the Court of Appeals in Bloemfontein that they should not undermine the government in its plans to institute e-tolls.

    The timing to sign the Bill, just after the arguments of the legal teams had been completed and the judges now have to decide about its judgement is aimed at sending a loud message to the judges. The question is whether the judges will themselves to be influenced in this manner.

    Lastly, the FF Plus believes that president Zuma had as a result of all the opposition to and a challenging of his authority decided to, despite his legal advisor’s advice which agrees with that of the FF Plus that the E-toll Bill is unconstitutional, impose his own authority and did not listen to good advice.

    The FF Plus will now be asking and studying the president’s legal advice following which the party’s legal team will consider bringing an application to have the E-Toll Bill set aside.

    In the meantime the FF Plus hopes that OUTA will win its case to have e-tolls declared void, Adv. Alberts says.

*Adv. Anton Alberts*

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## Chrisjan B

That's exactly my point too.....
The guvvement got no brakes.....

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## pmbguy

I wonder why the ANC is not waiting until after the elections to push through the E-tolling. Surely it is politically wise gain some public favour by letting us think they might scrap the whole thing, and then simply backtrack after the elections.

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## Dave S

> I wonder why the ANC is not waiting until after the elections to push through the E-tolling. Surely it is politically wise gain some public favour by letting us think they might scrap the whole thing, and then simply backtrack after the elections.


It Seems that is exactly what is now going to transpire, the e-tolls have been put on hold again and are only likely to be in effect in early 2015. See below notice I received yesterday.

*Dear Petitioner,*

*I have good news! It seems that the FF Plus has stopped the implementation of the e-toll system to at least the end of next year.*

All that stood between the public and the e-toll was the E-Toll Bill that only needed the signature of the President. He could have done it at any time thus paving the way for e-tolls. The FF Plus, however, discovered that the E-Toll Bill is unconstitutional and submitted a legal opinion on this to the President. As the President had already before sent a Bill back to parliament on similar grounds, we advised the president that he will have to do the same with the E-Toll Bill.

*The President's office has in the meantime informed us that his legal advisors agree with our legal opinion.* We are now only waiting to hear what the President is going to decide. If, however, he continues to sign the E-Toll Bill, we will fight it in court and stop it there.

This buys time for OUTA to complete their case against SANRAL and the government. The effect of our initiative is that, even if OUTA would lose its case (we hope not!), the e-toll system would still take a long time to switch on and this would give us more time to take further steps to finally stop its implementation.

I have placed our last media statement on the matter below for your consideration. It provides much more detail on the impact of our victory.

Thank you for continued support in this fight.

Best wishes

[IMG]file:///C:\Users\User\AppData\Local\Temp\msohtmlclip1\01\c  lip_image001.png[/IMG]
_We don't just talk, we fight for your rights._

   


*MEDIA RELEASE* SUBJECT         :           *The FF Plus’ relentless struggle halts the implementation of E-toll Bill* ISSUED BY       :           Adv. Anton Alberts CAPACITY        :           FF Plus parliamentary spokesperson: Transport DATE                :           18 September 2013 The FF Plus’ relentless struggle against e-tolls has stopped this controversial Bill in its tracks for now and forced president Jacob Zuma to consider it anew, Adv. Anton Alberts, the Freedom Front Plus’ parliamentary spokesperson on transport says. Although the president’s office has at present drawn a veil of secrecy over the status of the Transport Acts and Related Matters Amendment Bill (also known as the E-toll Bill), the FF Plus is of the opinion that the president has very little room to manoeuvre in signing the Bill and should rather send it back to parliament. As he had previously in similar circumstances and with similar advice referred the Intellectual Property Rights Amendment Bill back to Parliament, the president will act unconstitutionally if he does not act consistently. After a senior personnel member of president Zuma’s office had initially confirmed that state legal advisors concur with the legal opinion of the FF Plus that the Amendment Bill is unconstitutional, the person was later silenced and the president’s office is keeping mum about the Bill. Only the signature of president Zuma is needed for the Bill to become law. Mr. Mac Maharaj, the presidential spokesperson, has confirmed that president Zuma is studying the matter and will at a later date announce his finding. The minister of transport has now in a reply to a question of Adv. Anton Alberts, said the target date for the implementation of the Bill is still 2013, but that there is uncertainty about an exact date as the president first has to sign the E-toll Bill. With this, the minister acknowledges that the government’s expectation is still to activate the e-toll system in 2013 and that they will not be waiting for the 2014 elections. In effect, the activation of the e-toll system will not be taking place in 2013 as a result of the expected referral of the E-toll Bill back to parliament. This development is a direct consequence of a legal opinion of Adv. Alberts about the constitutionality of the Bill. According to Adv. Alberts, he believes the president will have little room to manoeuvre in signing the Bill and will instead have to send it back to parliament due to the damning legal advice which reveals the defects in the Bill. “This has been confirmed by the president’s legal advisors. With this the FF Plus has bought some time for amongst other, OUTA, to complete its court case against SANRAL and the government.

“The FF Plus also informed president Zuma that if he should indeed sign the Bill, it would still be contested in court. We are of the opinion that the government will lose the case and will once again receive an order to pay legal costs. A court case will only delay the completion of the E-toll Bill further.

“That is why we believe the Bill should be sent back to parliament. “The longer the president allows the issue to drag on, the more he allows the deadline for the implementation of the e-tolls to be extended. If OUTA was to lose its court case, the e-tolls will probably only start in 2015 due to the FF Plus’ intervention.”

The parliamentary deadline to submit bills for it to be completed by the end of this year had already lapsed on 7 June 2013. This means that if the E-toll Bill was to be sent back to parliament, it will only be properly dealt with by the portfolio committee on transport next year. 
It takes a minimum of 15 weeks, without anything delaying the process, for a Section 76 Bill to pass through both the National Assembly and the National Council of Provinces (committee meetings included) and be sent to the president for his signature. If one is to consider that the 2014 elections are due in the same period (April/May), the E-toll Bill could possibly only be completed by the second half of 2014 and then in addition to that, it will be dealt with by a new parliament. The new parliament may delay the Bill even further and additionally the new minister of transport will have to issue regulations in terms of the E-toll Bill to allow the e-toll system to be implemented. Thus, given the chaos which could be expected in 2014, it is reasonable to calculate that the E-toll Bill will only be effective in the first half of 2015 and the e-toll system later on in 2015. “Furthermore, should OUTA lose its case, the FF Plus would still continue to find ways to have the e-toll declared void in court or in parliament,” Adv. Alberts said. The basis for the unconstitutionality and legal defects can be explained as follows: ·        The most important argument is that the E-Toll Amendment Bill should be a Section 76 Bill as the Amendment Bill will affect provincial powers and capabilities. The e-toll system affects provincial powers in particular, as set out in Section 76(3) and Schedule 4 of the Constitution and more specifically provincial matters such as public transport (the purpose of the e-toll system is aimed precisely at making use of public transport), city planning and development (the e-toll system has an influence on it as transport patterns will be changing), road traffic regulation (the e-toll system will be changing transport patterns as motorists start making use of alternative suburban routes), and vehicle licensing (the withholding thereof which will possibly be used by SANRAL to enforce the payment of fines). The Constitutional Court had ordered that a Bill can be classified as a Section 76 Bill when, not only the essence of the act deals with a provincial matter, but also when the effect of an Act will be of such a nature that it would have an effect on provincial matters. This was confirmed by the legal opinion which the president received about the Intellectual Property Amendment Bill. It is therefore clear that the E-Toll Amendment Bill will definitely have an effect on provincial matters and capabilities.     ·        In the second instance, it is argued that the levying of a toll actually entails the collection of taxes, as set out in Section 77. That is why the part which deals with the levying of tolls and toll tariffs in both the E-Toll Amendment Bill and the SANRAL Act should actually be contained in a separate Money Bill, which has to be submitted by the Minister of Finance as a separate Bill. Section 77 stipulates that only the Minister of Finance can submit Money Bills.    · Lastly, the FF Plus finds the clause in the E-Toll Amendment Bill which excludes the application of the National Credit Act from all tolls completely, to be problematic, as the national Credit Regulator tasked with the management of the Credit Act, was mot, as prescribed by Parliamentary Rules, invited by the parliamentary portfolio committee on Transport to comment on the restriction of his jurisdiction. This constitutes a breach of Parliament’s own rules and is probably undermining the National Credit Act itself. 

*Adv. Anton Alberts*

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Citizen X (17-Nov-13)

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