# Social Category > General Chat Forum >  banking

## murdock

right it is time...

i need to find out which bank is the most affordable...

i need a bank which offers the most competitive rates... there is no service when it comes to banks anymore so i am not concerned about who offers the best service...i am looking for a bank which is not gona cost me a fortune to conduct my bussiness...and has easy internet.

any ideas?

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## Dave A

Remember when I compared foreign draft fees? The winner there depended on a number of factors. There might not be a stand-out winner in this case too.

Maybe if we all post a few critical rates from the banks we're dealing with at the moment, that would help?

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## Justloadit

I use FNB and find that the internet banking is free and is easy to use. A payment costs around R8.00 VAT included irrespective of the amount. Inter account transfer is about R4.00 It is extremely rare that I visit a branch. I hardly ever use a cheque book.

I also use Absa, but they charge a monthly fee for the internet usage. The cost is also about the same as FNB for an EFT. Inter account transfer is no charge.I have never been to an Absa branch since I have had the account for some three years now.

Either one works, and the in contact for both is pretty reliable.

What I do note - if some one does an FNB EFT payment into my account between say 20H00 and 07H00 (out of banking hours), then the funds are in suspension until fairly late the next banking day - Absa it is immediately available 24/7

I found that Stranded bank is not the best when it comes to the in contact messaging, and rates are much higher depending on the package you take on.

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## Chrisjan B

Capitec I think is a good option for personal use, as a start.

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## tec0

Just stay away from ABSA bank they are horrible!!!!

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## murdock

i will be looking into both bussiness and personal...i need to find a bank with better rates than standard bank... i am with standard bank and boy they seem to be getting more expensive by the day...what i do just to remind me how expensive they are is to log in then go to history and the banking fee indicates what each transaction costs

for example a R350 debit order cost R6.96
eft R700 cost R9.46
to draw cash R200 cost R6.54
R1000 cost R14.70 

then there is still service fee which changes every month but normally between 
R300 and R500 per month

this is a bussiness cheque account.

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## Justloadit

> Just stay away from ABSA bank they are horrible!!!!


Can you be more specific than just horrible.

All banks are horrible when they do not do what we think they are supposed to do. 
We always think that the bank is there to help us, just remember they are a business, and they sell money, or more accurately, supply a service with access to money. Would you give your stock to a shaky customer on credit? So why do we expect the banks to be any different with their stock, which happens to be money.

I am not trying to defend the banks here, what I am trying to say is that we think that the banks are our friends and that they will part with their money when ever we need it, and when they do not do it, we complain about them.

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## Chrisjan B

Banks are one of the company's that is like 007 - licensed to steal.... one of my gripes is that they charges me R 9-85 to pay R 900-00 int o my own credit card via their own ATM. And no I am not moving to another bank - rather the devil I know than the devil I don't......... I am a not proud CUSTOMER of ABSA - or a a client.  I have been working for them for 15 years before I resigned to start my own business, most possibly where my pet hate started....
Others are Telkom, cellphone company's etc.

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## tec0

Right you dont get a smart card if you are a Cheque Account holder so you have no security against card cloning. Secondly there investment account is a joke you lose money for every deposit you make and it will take about a year to recover that money. 

There banks are a complete mess-up you dont get helped and the manager are NEVER available. There ATMs are always closed on a weekend and they love to crash in the middle of a transaction With a blue screen no joke!!! 

Other than that there internet banking and SMS system is a joke the SMS takes forever to send you the authentication code and you get 2 codes so sometimes your transaction simply take too long and you have to restart the process 

And there helpline is anything but helpful.

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## Justloadit

> Secondly there investment account is a joke you lose money for every deposit you make and it will take about a year to recover that money.


I must admit I do not deposit cash or cheques into my investment account, but do an internal EFT, and I checked, the receiving and source account there is no charge. They do charge me for the email to inform me that I have done, as part of the internet banking. I do get a few Rond a month on this account. 



> There banks are a complete mess-up you dont get helped and the manager are NEVER available. There ATMs are always closed on a weekend and they love to crash in the middle of a transaction With a blue screen no joke!!!


I may be lucky, as I pick up the phone and call my branch, and usually get helped quite quickly. I must admit that I do not use the ATMs so can not comment there.




> Other than that there internet banking and SMS system is a joke the SMS takes forever to send you the authentication code and you get 2 codes so sometimes your transaction simply take too long and you have to restart the process 
> And there helpline is anything but helpful.


Do remember that the SMS engine which s controlled by the networks, are operated via email, so the delay may not be the bank, but the networks. I use email for my notifications, and must admit that that it has worked well for me, bar for one day that it was down a couple of months ago. My business is automated using this technology, and has been running successfully for a number of years, and I get 20 to 30 cash deposits into my account daily, and if my customers do not get their floats immediately my switchboard would light up.

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## Dave A

:Hmmm:  I've been looking at the business rate card at Standard Bank. I see they've introduced a cheque deposit fee this year. Last year cheque deposits were free.

Any ideas on how to get banks to reconsider their fee structures?

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## murdock

been thinking about this issue and my thoughts are that i need to get smart...i need to figue out a way to maximise the services in the cheapest manner...in other words (always deal with my customers in cash)....instead of always using my cheque account to do transactions i need to move money around in the bank and find the cheapest way to do transactions...

these are just thoughts but i will need to narrow it down and do some research...it would be helpful if for example a person from standard bank or fnb or one of the other banks to assisit us with this...i suppose it wouldnt be in the banks best interest to assisit us with this because it would mean less money made out of us.

lets say cash for example you will need to do lots of small transaction to make up the R24 they charge you for 1 cash withdraw of R1000 
but if you where smart you would have put your money for purchasing goods int a credit card and used the credit card...because it is free...but in saying that some outlets have got wise to this and dont offer a discount so you loose out on the discount...which could be more than the transaction fee to draw cash.

but them moving the money from the cheque account could cost you money and then there is the monthly service fee and insurance you have to pay...

you get what i am trying to achieve...maybe the solution is not moving banks but to utilise the accounts in a more cost effective manner.

and it still all boils down to one thing the best way to get money and spend it is in cash...you pay less tax....there are no deposit fees and withdraw fees...

the most important thing about dealing in cash is you cannot over spend...thats how i built up my company twice...cut up all the cards and dealt in cash...customer paid for materials i did the job and collected the cash on the day the job was completed this eliminated bad debt customers and i couldnt spend money i didnt have...no over spending on my part...when there was no money there was no money...not a credit card to dig a deeper hole or an overdaft facility to nail the coffin closed.

the banks aways promote the idea that your money is safe in the bank but boy do you pay for it.

i have also noticed that even when you print out a history statement they dont seperate all the bank fees...there are still some fees which stay in with all the other transactions that you miss unless you go looking....they must do that to trick you into thinking you only had to pay R1000 in fees and not R1500 and this is not unrealistic my monthly bank fees incuding interest are a lot more than this

like me your bank accounts and credit cards are becoming one of your biggest overheads in your company or personal life...take all you cards and accounts and work out how much you pay 

transaction fees... 
all deposit fees....cash and eft 
account insurance 
eft charges 
debit order charges 
interest on overdaft
and we wont even go into late payment fees etc  or returned items because thats where they really start making money anywhere from R100 - R200 a pop

i write this theads to remind myself how i am digging myself a hole in my financial future by not spending my money that i making  wisely....starting with the bank where i put the money

if i look back at my 20 years in bussiness there is only one regret..."that i didnt spend my money with a little more thought"..and i dont mean invest it into some institution which will make millions out of your money and all the brokers join the millianare club....then after 30 years they tell you the market crashed 10 years prior to your payment date so you only get back what you put in....i would have been a multi millionare by now if i had....so my advice to anyone starting out would be dont worry about how you gona make money thats the easy part...dont waste it when you get it...extend your pockets so you cant reach in and just take it all the time rather make it that you can only take it when you need it...ask your self do you really need that 42 " flat screen tv you purchased on your credit card last month? chances are you have just increased your family security risk by doing it...and what ever you do dont do what i am hearing people do i bolt it to the wall so they cant remove it...because then you have just increased the risk of your family being harmed or wife and daughter being raped...it is just a material thing which should be insured...and i am not even gona go there today.

i am not saying dont invest your money into anything just becareful...where you put it....dont be conned by an insurance brokers who will use your children and family as levaerage to get you to pay him a huge commission...and the company he works for millions.

rather buy your own property because thats what they will do with your money...look around you will notice all the big shopping centres are built and paid for with your investment.

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## IanF

> I've been looking at the business rate card at Standard Bank. I see they've introduced a cheque deposit fee this year. Last year cheque deposits were free.
> 
> Any ideas on how to get banks to reconsider their fee structures?


 Dave 
Lets the oligopoly in work now I will watch and see if FNB implement this. One thing with bank charges is that they are unfair and unavoidable. Take debit cards when we get paid by debit card we still pay the same 5% commission + VAT but the bank gets the money straight away not like a credit card. Then to get a straight answer from them is impossible. I am still waiting for FNB to tell me why I don't get anything on their fuel rewards. So far it looks like a con, but still waiting for a straight answer.

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## Dave A

> the best way to get money and spend it is in cash...you pay less tax....


You're referring to indirect taxes like VAT on bank charges, of course. Legally the payment mechanism shouldn't influence income tax  :Wink: 

Funny thing - I don't enjoy cash in my business at all. Way too many things that go wrong with cash.



> I am still waiting for FNB to tell me why I don't get anything on their fuel rewards. So far it looks like a con, but still waiting for a straight answer.


Shyte! Make sure you make a post when you know what the real deal is. I was seriously thinking of moving my business accounts to FNB on this alone. In theory that discount/refund would go a long way to covering my banking fees.

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## murdock

of course dave i wouldnt dream of stealing the taxmans money  :Big Grin: 

how would they keep up their exotic lifestyles if we didnt pay our taxes.

the fact that i cant afford a 5 million house and 2 million car working in the private sector and not a public servant...just doesnt make sense.

i always thought it was the private sector people who where the rich ones...but it is clear that is no longer the case.

anyway positive thinking this year...no time to waste on worrying about how much they money the goverment is wasting.

what i need to focus on is getting the contract for waste removal...charging customers R88 per month...it must be a worth while contract to strive for...anyone have any contacts in durban waste and water preferbly the minister  :Wink:

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## IanF

> Shyte! Make sure you make a post when you know what the real deal is. I was seriously thinking of moving my business accounts to FNB on this alone. In theory that discount/refund would go a long way to covering my banking fees.


Dave
Overall I am pretty happy with FNB just when i was looking at ebucks statement there was no credit coming through, then when I queried it they had the wrong email address. So still no answer. The way I read the programme is if you have petro cards you don't have to do anything. I will try again when I get back to the office tomorrow. Wouldn't it be nice if FNB read this and were proactive  :Wink:  
Also it looks like to get 15% you really have to be extraordinary!

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## murdock

and with another 28 cent petrol price increase maybe it might pay me to look into it.

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## Justloadit

I had a quick look at the FNB petrol discount offer, just marketing hype, to get the 15% discount, you really have to consume large volumes of fuel. I discarded it as hot air.

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## Chrisjan B

You can fool some of the people some of the time but not all people all the time...

If it is - if, or or but then somebody is being reamed but it is not the bank...

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## Dave A

> to get the 15% discount, you really have to consume large volumes of fuel.


Define "large volumes". My companies goes through quite a bit of the stuff.

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## IanF

> I had a quick look at the FNB petrol discount offer, just marketing hype, to get the 15% discount, you really have to consume large volumes of fuel. I discarded it as hot air.


 OK
Now out of Holiday mode, I did get Ebucks on the fuel starting at the end of December. I just checked my credit card statement as we use petrocards through the credit card. They say I am on level 3 which is 5% back  :Clap:  So I got R221 back this goes into my Ebucks account. Now I will let this accumulate and see what big ticket item I want/need!

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## IanF

> Define "large volumes". My companies goes through quite a bit of the stuff.


Dave
Nothing is simple and you have to earn points, I see I am on 15450 points which a rolling 12 month total. I have been with FNB for years. Once I have seen how to get to 16000 it will go to 7.5% so I will look into this in next week or so it will be worth it. You can check on the FNB website how to earn this. 
Anyway if you spend a fortune on fuel it should be worthwhile.

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## murdock

i dont have a fnb account but i do have an ebucks account and i get rewards when i purchase at various outlets when i remember to present the card...the rewards are small but add up...unfortunately if you dont keep using the card the fees overtake the amount in the card and so you loose all your credits...

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## IanF

I see the maximum you can get is R600 a month.
Murdock I have no charges on my ebucks account so you should check that.

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## Justloadit

> Define "large volumes". My companies goes through quite a bit of the stuff.


Hi Dave,

If you have a linked Petro Card the following table applies

Earn tier
(Points over a 12 month rolling period)	% of Qualifying Fuel Spend (rewarded as cash back)
0 - 9, 999	         1%
10, 000 - 13, 999	 2, 5%
14, 000 - 15, 999	 5%
16, 000 - 18, 499	 7, 5%	
18, 500	         10% - you get 15% on EBUCKS

I have not read the terms and conditions.

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Dave A (05-Jan-11)

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## Dave A

If that's per annum spend, this is going to be a cakewalk. Each of my service teams goes through about R3k in fuel per month on average.

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## murdock

they call it a dormancy admin fee and a dormancy admin penalty

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## Chrisjan B

What utter nonsense excuse to make more money....

I am not getting so worked up Dave will soon ban me for swearing....

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## Troll

Has anyone got views on Nedbank?

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## murdock

10 years ago nedbank almost shut my company down..they sent me a letter in the post telling me i was not managing my account properly and gave me 7 days to pay up my overdraft....credit cards and petrol cards...they called in all my suerities which was more than the amount outstanding but it almost shut me down...thats why i was glad to hear a rumour that they have been experiencing losses and are looking into retrenchmentng staff unless things pickup...

absa bank told me t fly a kite they were not even interested in opening a savings account...thats why i would never open an account with them and closed one of my credit cards because the woolworths credit card has been taken over by absa.

standard bank was the only bank who were prepared to help me....i know i bitch and moan about them all the time but maybe thats why i am still with them...they opened a savings account which helped me build up to where i am now...i have a really good rating with them again and i get calls from them when my account has issues...i no longer call them.

i believe it is time i manage my money and moving banks is not gona help...so i need to get smart and think a little before i just spend or move money around...find more cost effective ways to pay for stuff...like with the credit card etc.

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## murdock

you gotta love the way the banks get creative with their charges...i went over my limit by R137.80 this month so the didnt return anything....whoooppeee i thought great...what i didnt realise was that the honoury fee is R250....return fee R115 go figue....the reason...my credit rating is high again with the bank...in other words i only have 2 didgits to go and i am a prime customer.

so i apply to incease my overdaft because i am busy with a big project worth a lot of money...and need to have some panels buillt and pay for them....upfront if i want to benefit for the discount...now remeber my over daft was reduced by R50 000 as requested by me....a while back....i need to increase my overdaft by R10 000 just to get me through the next 2 months...i have been waiting 2 days for a reply...and  the bank manager was the one who mentioned how well i manage my account...i would have thought a small increase like this would have been a step in good account management...seemss not.

what an insult...first i am told  i am almost a prime customer...then i have a hole ripped in by backside by charging me more than twice the price of a returned item...and then i sit and wait while they decide wether or not to increase my overdraft to a limit which is only a small percentage of my turnover...i get the feeling this rating system is a con to rip me off again...just to put the system to the test i am gona apply for credit cards and petrol cards...to see if this rating actually means anything or if it is just another way the bank can rip me off...


as i mnetioned in one of the other threads...i would love to run into the bank manager who told me 20 years ago i would never make it...i have 13 days to go and my bussiness is 20 years old.

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## murdock

while on the phone to the bank manager i mention the way i am getting ripped off with fees...cash withdraw...eft...etc.

this is the what standard bank service is all about...the reply to my question "why dont you get a bussiness cerdit card...only a small yearly fee is charged" my reply why was i not told about this by the person who manages my account...we are talking thousands of rand saving over a period of a couple of years....because i didnt ask.

so i ask where do i sign...sorry you have to fill in a form and apply for it...and they will do a credit check to see if i qualify...my response but i have had my account with you people for 12 years...bonds...vehicle finance...cheque accounts...savings accounts and i am told i am a good customer who has a good credit rating and i manage my account well...

so back to my rating why be a high rating with the bank it seems you just get scr*wed more than others

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## Dave A

> the reply to my question "why dont you get a bussiness cerdit card...only a small yearly fee is charged"


It must be a drive at the moment. It's been suggested to me three times so far this year - when I b*tched about the new cheque deposit fee, a seperate phonecall specifically on the subject, and then again as part of the "we're suspending the cheque deposit fee" phonecall.

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## wynn

The trouble seems to be:-
We think by dealing with the bank we are BANKING
They think by us dealing with them it allows them to go BONKING!

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## wynn

Banking giant Absa, identified as one of the two most expensive banks in South Africa in the Solidarity Movement's first report on bank charges last year, has retained its title. 

“Moreover, the bank charges of Absa's cheapest account went up by 8%, while Capitec's bank charges were not increased at all this year,” the trade union said on Thursday as it released its second report on bank charges. 

The report compared the bank charges of different personal bank accounts of the five large commercial banks, Absa, FNB, Standard Bank, Nedbank and Capitec with each other. 

“When comparing the cheapest accounts of the five banks included in the Solidarity Research Institute's report, Capitec's Global One account comes out as the least expensive.” 

According to the report, Standard Bank and Absa were still overall the most expensive of the five banks included in the study, and Capitec and FNB were the cheapest. - I-Net Bridge 


http://www.iol.co.za/business/compan...rges-1.1161380

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## Blurock

> Banking giant Absa, identified as one of the two most expensive banks in South Africa in the Solidarity Movement's first report on bank charges last year, has retained its title. 
> 
> Moreover, the bank charges of Absa's cheapest account went up by 8%, while Capitec's bank charges were not increased at all this year, the trade union said on Thursday as it released its second report on bank charges. 
> 
> The report compared the bank charges of different personal bank accounts of the five large commercial banks, Absa, FNB, Standard Bank, Nedbank and Capitec with each other. .....


Quote from Independent Newspapers October 21 2011 at 12:05pm 
ABSA Group CEO Maria Ramos. Photo: Simphiwe Mbokazi.
Absa Bank defended its relatively high banking fees saying on Friday they focus on value for money, rather than price. 

We believe there is sufficient evidence that we provide value to our customers with choice, convenience, accessibility and security, a statement said. Unquote.

What bulls#!t! Rather reduce your R20 mil + annual package and employ more staff to serve your clients. :Fence:

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## Phil Cooper

Absa most costly.

Standard second most costly.

Capitec the cheapest - but they ONLY do private accounts.

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## Traffic Sense

Bank charges at Absa are ridiculous! FNB doesn't have the best service but their charges are reasonable and they have rewards such as ebucks.

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## Blurock

> Bank charges at Absa are ridiculous! FNB doesn't have the best service but their charges are reasonable and they have rewards such as ebucks.


In my experience FNB also beats Absa on service. :Smile:

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## flaker

[ 

Other than that there internet banking and SMS system is a joke “the SMS takes forever to send you the authentication code and you get 2 codes so sometimes your transaction simply take too long and you have to restart the process” 

[/QUOTE]

i'm with Nedbank & the SMS authentication system has always been 100%.the big gripe i have is to do with instant payments when making payments to accounts with another bank.there is NO instant payment mechanism,so when i pay into an a/c held in a bank other than nedbank, my account is immediately debited, but receiving party is only credited the next day :Mad:

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## Justloadit

> i'm with Nedbank & the SMS authentication system has always been 100%.the big gripe i have is to do with instant payments when making payments to accounts with another bank.there is NO instant payment mechanism,so when i pay into an a/c held in a bank other than nedbank, my account is immediately debited, but receiving party is only credited the next day


This is a standard mechanism with any bank payment to another bank payment. Depending on the time of the day, and if a weekend is in there somewhere, it can take up to 48 hours.

FNB has a tick box for this, but only once you have created a beneficiary. They charge you for this service though, not sure if it is R35 or R65

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## murdock

banking must be the easiet and quickest get rich quick scheme i have ever come across...eft bank charges must be the biggest thing since the cell phone.

you hear people talking about wanting to get to a point where the  money pours in even while you are sleeping...supplying water and electricity comes to mind...catch is you still need to supply build infrastructure and maintain water and electricity...eft charges are FOR FREE BABY (you know what i mean) banks are already set up...no tellers required...from R1 - hundreds of rands for a computer to generate a transfer...anyone worked out the actual cost for an eft...(what it costs the banks) 

it is even worse than the council charging you R 350 reconnect fee and only paying the contractor who actually does the reconnect R12...eeeish talk about...price fixing...which in turn ceates a service which if they cant get access then throw a slip of paper on your driveway...then because your meter reading is higher than at the date of disconnect...your are then charged as a crimminal for reconnecting your own supply...and i ask myself how a person runs up a R60 000 municiple account...anyone see anything wrong with this picture...anyway going off the topic.

want to print money faster than the forrest can provide trees...start a bank...giving you more say in goverment than the president himsef...much like the anc is thought to be run by black africans...then why are key positions held by the absolute minorty in this country  indians...i wonder who owns the banks and hold key positions in the banks....mmm...food for thought

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## flaker

> This is a standard mechanism with any bank payment to another bank payment. Depending on the time of the day, and if a weekend is in there somewhere, it can take up to 48 hours.
> 
> FNB has a tick box for this, but only once you have created a beneficiary. They charge you for this service though, not sure if it is R35 or R65


So has Absa. i don't mind the fee , but Nedbank has no such facility.They tell me they're working on it .There are many times when i need to pay instantly for a vehicle in order that i may gain possession immediately on payment but this is not possible unless the seller sees the moneys in his account. So overnight i'm sitting with the seller having both my moneys & the vehicle, a not too satisfactorty situation for obvious reasons.

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## AndyD

I'm wondering why all the replies suggest most people only use one bank. Am i the only person that does business with two banks for the company and a third one in my private capacity?

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## Blurock

Agreed. Separate private accounts from business. Dealing with more than one bank increase awareness of charges and service offerings.

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## murdock

why 2 accounts?

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## wynn

The idea of two accounts, at different banks, for the business is that if you are running a bit low and you have a cheque rd'd at bank one because a large deposit failed the bank will freeze your account and try to grab any other deposits, you just move these other deposits etc to the account at bank two and no hiccup in your cashflow while you sort out the smelly stuff at your first account.

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## Pap_sak

I am also looking at a dual banking account - being a sole prop helps. FNB has started to charge for putting cash into it's ATMs - bank fees for last month R1300 and I do not even have an overdraft.

Capitec fees VS FNB business

Cash deposits 0.75% around 1.15%
debit card puchases free - think around R6.50
monthly fee R4.50 vs 49.50
debit orders R2.75 vs R14.25 (CRAZY)
Payments/transfers R2.50 vs around R7.50

Then, of course, you get 6% interest on your capitec account and a nothing on the big 4.

I think changing accounts it always a big deal (changing debit orders is the big pain) but doing it over a few months should take the sting out of it - might keep the fnb account though as new suppliers like to have the account in the business accounts name - and capitec still do not allow you to do this....

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## AndyD

> why 2 accounts?


Mainly flexibility and it also helps keep costs down by taking advantage of their different charging structures. I haven't used it as a cash flow tool as Wynn suggested yet but that might also be an option if you need it in a squeeze.

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