# Interest group forums > Electrical Contracting Industry Forum >  Connecting gas stoves

## ians

Another interesting issue I have experienced in the last couple of weeks, connecting gas stoves and induction plates.

What's the big deal, just connect to the under counter oven or just join the wires behind the stove, nobody will see it, but can you that's the question.

If you install a gas hob and under counter oven is it safe to cut off the plug top and connect the cabtyre directly to the terminals where the 4mm or 6 mm stove wires are connected and is a certified gas installer allowed to connect the wire once he cuts off the plug or connect the cabtyre directly to the 4/6mm wire be it in a junction box or not?

I was put in a situation where we removed the hob and replaced it with 2 x induction plates, but there were no plug sockets to connect the plates, so I mounted a double socket outlet, connect the hob cable (4mm twin + e) into the socket outlet and fitted a 20 amp circuit breaker into the 4x4 extension box, cut a small slot so that just the breaker switch protrudes from the box. Trying to get a feed from another socket outlet to the hob location would have involved chasing walls in the dinning room and patching with the risk of damaging tiles in the R120 000 kitchen, which I wasn't prepared to take.

----------


## RTsparky

Hi ians

I have experienced a similar issue in the past and I ended up buying SANS 10087 (gas installation regulations) I have no idea why it is not part of SANS 10142
Basically it states that no electrical connection shall be made directly under the hob, including a socket outlet. The hob connection shall be made off into an isolator mounted at least 200mm away from the hob above the counter, or in an adjoining cupboard not directly below the hob.  

The plug with a separate 20A breaker isn't a bad idea provided the stove was connected through earth leakage, otherwise a dedicated plug could be used, provided it was in an adjoining cupboard.
You could connect the cabtyre directly to the stove supply provided that the size of conductor in the cabtyre was at least equal to the ka rating of the mcb feeding the stove even if the amp rating exceeded what the cabtyre could handle.
I believe that a stove and hob setup where the hob is basically a separate appliance, then two separate isolators should be installed. Often not very easy with modern kitchen designs, especially ovens in kitchen islands.

This is my first post btw. 
Regards 
Ryan Taylor, electrician, CT

----------

mikilianis (03-Sep-13)

----------


## AndyD

> Hi ians
> 
> I have experienced a similar issue in the past and I ended up buying SANS 10087 (gas installation regulations) I have no idea why it is not part of SANS 10142


I can kinda understand why it's not part of the electrical standards. Ian, if you'd like a copy of 10087 then Christmas has come early.

If you follow the parent directories links you'll find standards and codes for various countries in their respective ibr/ directories if you're interested.

----------

mikilianis (03-Sep-13)

----------


## AndyD

Lol, the more I trawl through that site the more I couldn't help laughing. I just learned that Swaziland has its own national standards authority called the SZNS but from what I can see their standards bear more than a passing resembelence to the SANS equivalents. Just for a laugh here's the Swazi standard for fixed electric water heaters.....see, every day's a school day, I just learned something else.... they must have electricity in Swaziland.  :Wink:

----------


## ians

Lucky the plug I installed wasn't under a hob, we removed the hob, had a stainless steel frame made to fit the 2 induction plates which come standard with 15 amp moulded plug (seen more fires and burnt wires from these plugs than any other) and the isolator is still connected  on the wall so you can switch off the plug socket with the isolator so you don't have to go into the cupboard.

By the way this is Africa, anything goes, sans regs are just for those who are not up to speed with red robots, driving in the orange line, etc, so I am sure my home made circuit breaker box thingy ma bob will work fine  :Smile: , or like the response I got from the technical advisor at the ECA "what's all the fuss about is just a 6mm wire connected to a 16mm wire in a box which is not weatherproof being cast in a concrete deck with a 60 amp breaker protecting the cable"  :Wink:

----------


## Goobie

Could somebody please explain to a noob like me the connection of an electric oven when it states on the back that it needs to be earthed but not be fed through the earth leakage breaker.

So if there is a leakage in the oven, the earth leakage will trip but not shut off the oven? So the earthing offers no protection then correct?

Thank you

----------


## ians

In simple terms, in an electric installations you get an earth then everything else, what a lot of people including electricians don't always understand is unless you earthing is correctly selected and installed, you could end up with a dangerous installation. A very simple and common one I can refer to is people complain about getting shocked when they touch the washing machine or dishwasher, it could simply be that the earth is not connected, which could be very dangerous if you are standing bare foot touching the appliance.

This is a trick question, your stove doesn't have to be connected to an earth leakage unit and as you enquired on another thread nor do light circuits under certain conditions. Generally you only have to connect plugs via an earth leakage unit. Making statements like I just have could get me into trouble, because it is not as simple as it sounds, there is a SANS book which has all the details which an electrician uses as guidelines to make the right choice.

I have tried to answer your question without going confusing you or going into too much detail, Andy is a lot better at responding to questions.

----------


## Sparks

I reckon that explanation is good enough Ian, the earthing must be done thoroughly and correctly and ELCB protection is not required, but as you pointed out about the lighting circuits it is not as simple as it sounds. I will mention this here as this is where this thread started. A socket outlet is only allowed on a cooker circuit provided it is enclosed in the same enclosure as the cooker isolator and has it's own separate protection. Because of the socket outlet this circuit must have ELCB protection. (also mentioned in a nutshell)

----------


## ACEsterhuizen

Sorry to dig up old cows, but I was confronted by a "gas inspector ??" (yes i know) and asked how could i issue a coc with the isolator "near" the (newly installed) gas / solid plate /element combo stove in a kitchen. Apparently the new gas regs prohibits any isolators "near" a gas stove?

All i have is my sans 10142 regs and according to the Regs a lpg gas stove and the area which it is located in is not a hazardous area?:

*7.14.3* The classification of the location and the selection of equipment
permitted (such as flameproof, explosion proof and intrinsically safe
equipment) shall be in accordance with SANS 10108. The installation of
electrical equipment in explosive atmospheres and in the petroleum industry
shall be in accordance with SANS 10086-1 and SANS 10089-2 respectively.

NOTE Examples of *hazardous* locations are

a) petrol pumps,
b) spray painting booths,
c) areas for the storage, mixing and use of flammable fuels, paints or solvents,
d) grain silos and flour mills,
e) coal storage facilities,
f) wine cellars,
*g) areas for the storage and filling of LPG cylinders,*
h) battery charging locations, and
I) sewage plant.


but then again Regs 5.1.4 states clearly that:

*5.1.4 Positioning of equipment*

Electrical equipment which, under normal conditions will be

a) _exposed to flammable or explosive gas_, _vapour_, dust or liquid, *or* to
external influences such as direct sunlight, corrosive vapour or oil, *or*

b) in a hazardous location,

shall be so selected *or* enclosed that it is protected against harmful
effects *or* it shall comply with the requirements of an applicable standard
(or both).

but then i have to comply with the following as well:

*6.16.3.1.2* A switch-disconnector for a cooking appliance(s) shall

a) be in the same room as the appliance(s),
b) be at a height above floor level of not less than 0,5 m and not more than
2,2 m,
c) *preferably* not be above the cooking appliance(s), (not necessarily)
d) be within 3 m of the appliance(s), but within 0,5 m of the appliance(s)
if the switch-disconnector's purpose is not clearly indicated, and
e) not be fixed to the appliance.

So what do i do with the stove isolator?  :Banghead:

----------


## ians

I am in a bit of a spot because the gas stove requires a socket outlet and the cable supplied with the plug top already connected is only 1.5 m long, so you literally have to either install a plug next to the gas stove at a lower level for it to reach or mount the plug directly above or just to the side of the stove. This could get interesting cant wait to see what the gas inspector has to say about it.

----------


## bergie

what about an electric oven with a gas hob. if you cant have connections etc below the gas hob then the oven shouldnt be allowed to be below it.

----------


## ians

After this little fiasco i have learnt something. 

IF you buy a gas stove and you plan on having the 9 kg bottle inside the kitchen in the cupboard as in my case make sure you get the company where you purchase the stove from to fit the piece of hose and regulator and make sure they give you a certificate of compliance for fitting that piece of pipe and regulator. IF you dont you are gona be in the same spot as i am at the moment. My gas stove has a short piece of pipe with a regulator exactly the same as my 2 plate stove, but because i connected the pipe to the gas stove i have to get a coc for that one connection i made at a fee. The part that has pissed me off is not the coc, it is the fact that they will not repair my gas stove because i dont have a coc for that 1 connection even though the stove is 2 weeks old. The technician arrived here last night checked the stove, indicated that the ignitor is faulty but they cannot work on the stove until i produce a coc.

----------


## bergie

i thought the law is that the gas bottle must be outside,or is it above 9 kilos?

----------


## ians

That is my understanding, anything over 9 kg must be outside, piped with a shutoff valve on the inside and one on the outside installed and certified by a gas installer.

9 kg and below can be fitted in the cupboard or next to the appliance and connected directly to the gas bottle using a gas hose with a regulator, but who knows the rules just keep changing.

Unfortunately as indicated by the supplier (clearly stated in the manual supplied with the stove) unless i  can produce a COC and an invoice from a certified installer to say the installation was carried out according to regulations, i have no claim for any faulty parts or defective workmanship   :Frown: 

lesson learnt: next time i buy any gas appliances and i am going to use a 9 kg in the cupboard, make sure that it has a short pipe with the regulators already installed with a certificate of compliance for that short piece of pipe.

I am now told that because of this fiasco i have also lost my 5 guarantee, so i sit with a 2 week old f&%* stove which i must repair at my cost and have no claim against in the future.

----------


## AndyD

As far as I know any gas appliance that's not self contained requires a gas certificate if it's static inside a premises.

----------


## ians

What i need is to find someone who actually knows the rules and regulations.

Simple question...using a 9 kg bottle loose in a cupboard: (please provide documentation to back your reply)

If you have a 2 plate stove as used for camping sold at makro game etc do you need a coc if you put it on a counter in your kitchen - yes or no 
If you have a free standing 4 plate stove with a cable with a socket outlet which can be moved around the kitchen require a coc - yes or no

what is the max length a flexible pipe can be connected to an appliance with a regulator?

IF the free standing stove can be supplied with a plug socket, can the appliance be supplied with a flexible hose and regulator?

What is the max sized bottled allowed to be used indoors for appliances?

----------


## ACEsterhuizen

Is this the regulations pertaining to gas installations?

also here

and here

and then the actual act that empowers such regs.

...and here i was thinking of building my own personal steam generator at home.... 

_Registration of a steam generator
8. (1) No user may use a steam generator unless such user is in
possession of a certificate of registration issued in terms of subregulation (3)
for that steam generator.
(2) Application for registration to use a steam generator shall be made
prior to use to the provincial director in the form of Annexure 2, including
copies of a certificate from the manufacturer and from the approved
inspection authority after installation prior to commissioning: Provided that this
subregulation shall not apply in respect of the re-erection of a steam
generator on the same premises.
(3) On receipt of an application for registration................._

----------


## ians

According to the attached regulation you can store up to 19 kg indoors

5.2.2 Indoor location
5.2.2.1 Where LPG containers are permanently installed or stored in a building, the type of building
(as defined in the relevant part of SANS 10400, see also annex D) and the corresponding size of
the container(s) shall be as follows:
a) flats (H3): a maximum of 9 kg per flat;
b) houses (including cluster housing and group housing (not exceeding two storeys)): a total
 maximum of 19 kg;

----------


## ians

As with the electrical regulations 

6.2 Installation of appliances
6.2.1* Fixed appliances* shall be installed by a registered installer. When siting an appliance, due
regard shall be paid to convenience in use, to protection from draughts and damage, and to the
layout of the gas piping system. Pipe runs shall be as neat, tidy and as short as possible. Pressure
regulators shall be of an approved type. Low-pressure regulators shall comply with SANS 1237.

----------


## ians

I thought this would be interesting for all the sparkys

9 Electrical equipment and other sources of ignition
9.1 General
Where electrical equipment is placed within the safety distance as specified in figure 3, the zone
requirements in accordance with SANS 10087-3 shall apply.
Electrical equipment, such as light switches and plugs, shall be at least 200 mm away from any
burner and potential point of gas release. Where it is necessary to install a gas hob together with an
electric oven, a three-point plug socket shall not be used to connect the electric oven. A proper
isolator switch shall be in place above the level of the hob and it shall have at least 200 mm
clearance from the hob.
No electrical connection shall be made below the hob. See figures 15 and 16 for further
connections. ...this has been discussed in previous threads.

----------


## ians

just to blow everything out the water. You cannot use only 1 x 9 kg bottle for a domestic stove as indicated in the table below:


Table 2 ^ Container requirements of typical appliances
1 2 3 4 5
Approximate number of containers
required
Capacity of container
Approximate
input Appliance
22 L (9 kg) 45 L (19 kg)a 113 L (48 kg) kJ/h
Gas stove, normal domestic 1,50 0,65 0,32 42 000
Gas stove, large domestic 2,25 1,00 0,50 63 000
Hotplate (2 burner) 1,00 0,25 0,12 16 000
Instantaneous water heater, multipoint 4,60 2,00 1,00 74 000
Instantaneous water heater, single point 2,00 0,84 0,42 37 000
Gaslight 0,10 0,04 0,02 2 000
Gas iron 0,20 0,08 0,04 3 000
Refrigerator 0,10 0,04 0,02 2 000
Space heater, large, with flue 2,00 0,84 0,42 37 000
Space heater, small, portable type 0,40 0,16 0,08 5 000
NOTE 1 The container requirements may be scaled down if it is unlikely that all appliances will be used
simultaneously for long periods of time.
NOTE 2 This table is based on results that are typical for cold-winter conditions in South Africa; in
warmer conditions the requirements will be less. With experience, a registered installer will learn how
the values can be modified to suit local conditions.
a
 It has been found in practice that the approximations given for 45 L (19 kg) containers can usually
 also be used for 34 L (13/14 kg) containers.
Table 3 ^ Container requirements for an installation
1 2 3 4
Number of containers required Appliance
22 L (9 kg) 45 L (19 kg) 113 L (48 kg)
Gas stove, normal domestic 1,50 0,65 0,32
Instantaneous water heater, single point 2,00 0,84 0,42
Refrigerator 0,10 0,04 0,02
Gaslights (8 × value given in table 2) 0,80 0,32 0,16
Total number of containers 4,40 1,85 0,9

----------


## ians

I still cant find the rule which indicates that if the flexible hose is shorter than 1.5 m long a COC is no required.

----------


## ians

Just been to a property which has a 14 kg bottle positioned directly below a DB with a isolating valve and copper pipe 1 metre long. Was installed and certified by a gas installer. I would have thought that would be illegal because it blocks the access to the DB. You cant move the bottle because there is a short flexible hose just just long enough to reach the shut off valve. 

Time to apply for the gas course to become a certified gas installer  :Frown:

----------


## Sparks

A quote to move the DB will have the homeowner quickly contesting the validity of the gas installation certificate. surprisingly though, I had a few cases in Cape Town where people rather paid to have me move their DB as opposed to them moving their stoves from directly below it.

----------

