# General Business Category > Technology Forum >  Engineering 'one oh one.'

## Brett Nortje

I decided to start 'studying' engineering about two years ago on the wikipedia. man that site is awesome! the way i see it, there are different ways to approach engineering, along with new ways of doing the maths for everyone. but, let's start my 'class' with the basics of engineering - 'what is engineering?'

Engineering is when you get a machine to do things for you. think of your body as a machine and your heart as the engine, pumping blood throughout the body. you want it to pump more blood with less fuel or food taken to do so. this means that things get better all the time.

Basically, you want to observe that engineering is about energy changing forms. if kinetic energy and potential energy are understood, then there should be a solid foundation for this 'field.'

You will also learn a little bit about physics in engineering, as mass has boiling points and conductivity. the thing is that they go into such detail for the degree that you never use the things you learn about! think of it now, do you really need to know field theory to work an engine or split an atom?

I will continue after you ask specific questions, that i will be glad to answer, that is, if you have any. otherwise, i will just continue to unravel the working of the universe at a rather slow pace, step by step, okay?

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## adrianh

I am experiencing Déjà vu....

....are you directly related to some dude living in Limpopo?

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## Brett Nortje

This is the easiest part! basically, you can work out your calculus by squaring the number in the brackets and subtracting itself from the total.

For trigonometry, you need to simply measure the angles, then find the ratio between them on a calculator. this can be done in four measurements and one calculation, think like a child approaching it, okay?

For functions you need to observe that;




> The function composition of two functions takes the output of one function as the input of a second one.




So, don't worry about [g] and [f], as they repeat themselves, and [x] equals [x]. this equation or sum means that [g] times [f] is equal to [g] times [f], multiplied by [x], yes? so, you say [g] times [f] times [x] equals your answer for the two functions.

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## adrianh

Aye, who needs university if you've got Wikipedia...

@Justloadit: I am sure that you are enjoying engineering math 101  :Cool:

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Brett Nortje (06-Jan-15)

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## irneb

> So, don't worry about [g] and [f], as they repeat themselves, and [x] equals [x]. this equation or sum means that [g] times [f] is equal to [g] times [f], multiplied by [x], yes? so, you say [g] times [f] times [x] equals your answer for the two functions.


I think you misunderstand what "function composition" means. I.e. the o between the g & f on the left. It's not like a multiply, it means you run the one function, get its result and then pass that as the input for the other function.

E.g. Say you have the following two algebraic functions:



Then:

Expands to:

Which in turn expands to:


So now when you pass an input value into the combined functions (i.e. you give a value for x) that last formula is actually calculated.

See this concept similar to a formula in Excel which takes as its input the value in another cell which has a formula of its own.

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## irneb

Actually this is one of the issues I have against the way we're taught Maths at school. The one thing which confuses some is that idea of short-hand notation for multiply. It makes for ambiguous notation - which is where your misunderstanding stems from.


There's 2 solutions to circumvent this ambiguous misrepresentation:
Never shorthand a multiply. So instead of writing  you should always write the multiply out fully like this . But that makes for very verbose notation.Use an alternative notation instead of the normal Infix notation. Something like Polish notation (also referred to as Prefix notation) would alleviate some of it including removing the need to group portions due to precedence of operators, as would Reverse Polish (postfix). Or even better would be to use something like Lambda calculus. Personally though I feel S-expressions would provide the most consistent, readable, unambiguous and comprehensive alternative.

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## adrianh

> Actually this is one of the issues I have against the way we're taught Maths at school. The one thing which confuses some is that idea of short-hand notation for multiply. It makes for ambiguous notation - which is where your misunderstanding stems from.
> 
> 
> There's 2 solutions to circumvent this ambiguous misrepresentation:
> Never shorthand a multiply. So instead of writing  you should always write the multiply out fully like this . But that makes for very verbose notation.Use an alternative notation instead of the normal Infix notation. Something like Polish notation (also referred to as Prefix notation) would alleviate some of it including removing the need to group portions due to precedence of operators, as would Reverse Polish (postfix). Or even better would be to use something like Lambda calculus. Personally though I feel S-expressions would provide the most consistent, readable, unambiguous and comprehensive alternative.


...or you could simply say that a little knowledge when misapplied is far more dangerous than no knowledge.

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irneb (08-Jan-15)

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## Brett Nortje

> I think you misunderstand what "function composition" means. I.e. the o between the g & f on the left. It's not like a multiply, it means you run the one function, get its result and then pass that as the input for the other function.
> 
> E.g. Say you have the following two algebraic functions:
> 
> 
> 
> Then:
> 
> Expands to:
> ...


So, for your example, it goes to the last one once you have all the information. i guarantee you a seventh grader can do it like i explain it!

You can find x in any of those sums. i will expand on the second one, as x will remain x, then for the last one you don't need to do the part to the right of the equals sign. so;

X must be a positive number, as engineering works with things that are positive in terms of angles, seeing as how things that are built actually have a value, and, let's say that x is 3 because that is the minimum it can be to be have two subtracted from it, yes? then, you need to [1] / [27] = 0.0038 or so, yes? then, you can use logic to place the poitn somewhere on the equation where it makes sense, and, even a seventh grader can make sense of this.

Simply, you assign any value for [x] that you feel comfortable with, then you get the 'ratio,' then you adjust the point.

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## adrianh

I take it you have a masters degree in K-logic.

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## HR Solutions

> Aye, who needs university if you've got Wikipedia...


Lol .......

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## irneb

> Simply, you assign any value for [x] that you feel comfortable with, then you get the 'ratio,' then you adjust the point.


Exactly!

You could also see it as you provide a value for x, then run it through the innermost function (the last one in the string of combinators) to get a new value to pass to the next function in line (the previous function in the string of combinators) as its "x". This continues until you've reached the outer function (the first in the string of combinators) - which then gives the final result.

So you could have something like this:
Formula
X-Value
Result


5.5
5


5
0.024


0.024
6.121728


5.5
6.121728

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Brett Nortje (08-Jan-15)

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## Brett Nortje

I have been busy with this sort of thing for a while now, and, think there might be an easier way to introduce kids to it at primary school level. that of course would mean that they would have to learn algebra at like the fifth and sixth grade levels, but, i believe that is now possible thanks to my discoveries in mathematics.

So, all we got to do is explain to them what the maths does. if we were to explain that machines work with parts, and parts have angles that need to be worked out, i am sure they would understand. an explanation could be that 'it is like lego,' yes? maybe a technique model from germany for each class could be organized so they can see that sometimes all things do not fit, and, then they could find ways to overcome this problem.

Sometimes there are parts that fit together that make it harder for other parts to fit together, by getting in the way or making some parts too narrow for the others to fit into naturally. it could be explained to the kids that you may adjust parts to make them work better, or, you could redesign the machine.

I have always thought that mechanics is about mechanisms. mechanisms come in all shapes and sizes, and, then they do things when other things do things. if they were to liken this to a computer code, it would be, when 'this' do 'that.' seeing as how it is us that activate the machine or mechanism, then we will see that we are the ones doing 'this,' and the machine is the thing doing 'that.'

So, if some kids understand code, they could understand engineering better, yes? of course, if we were to want them to get a firm hold of engineering, we could explain that it is all 'slaves' that 'work' for us. all the little parts are slaves, and when we make them do something they will do that thing.

Some parts have multiple functions though, or, lots of stuff they can do. for now, let's look at how a light works? the light is powered by electricity, and, the switch closes the circuit [or bridge] to allow the little electricity people to go to work, to put the light on. it stays on because the circuit stays closed, like a bridge staying down for the little slaves to stay connected - imagine a telephone that gets answered - you can talk as long as both places are connected or closed on each other. think of a circuit as if it were a 'regulator,' not letting the 'mechanism' work until the circuit is closed, so you could say that the dorr is reversed - you can only go through the door when it is closed, okay?

Okay, that might confuse some kids. if they were to think of a blender, you can only use it when there is food inside, or electricity inside, and then the lid must be on so the electricity does not fly all over the place.

Do you think kids will understand this fundamental of engineering?

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## HR Solutions

I have just come from my sons graduation as a civil engineer - he studied at Wits tho, not wikepedia ....

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## Brett Nortje

> I have just come from my sons graduation as a civil engineer - he studied at Wits tho, not wikepedia ....


Are you saying that kids will not understand the fundamentals of engineering, or, are you saying that this doesn't cover half of it? what did you expect?

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## adrianh

Brett, how many kids do you have?
How old are they?
How are they doing at school?

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## Brett Nortje

> Brett, how many kids do you have?
> How old are they?
> How are they doing at school?


My kids are too young to go to creche so far.

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## adrianh

I'm a bit lost, what is it exactly that you are trying to say about maths and engineering?

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## Brett Nortje

> I'm a bit lost, what is it exactly that you are trying to say about maths and engineering?


I am trying to educate kids in schools. i hear from teachers on the net that they learn this stuff very quickly, and, they get it right.

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## adrianh

Just explain to me in simple words how you plan to educate them?

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## Brett Nortje

In engineering maths, there are different types of angles. of course, if we were to observe that they all have a length and height and breadth, expressed or shown on the 'grid,' we could say they are two dimensional, as lines tend to be two dimensional.

If we were to observe that they will always be from a point to a point, we know none of them, well, in this sort of environment, will ever be, in the real world, infinite, as even a machine stops eventually as it is replaced, but that is besides the point.

The angles will always equal 'length' to 'height' at a ratio of away from ninety at certain 'distances.' this is obvious, and, cuts the formulas into little bits.

I am not sure about the specifics, but, this is a 'new law,' says me!

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## adrianh

So tell me, do you have a masters degree in math?

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## Brett Nortje

> So tell me, do you have a masters degree in math?


I have been studying maths full time from open source textbooks for six years now, but am still a bit of a layman, ad, i have no degree.

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## adrianh

Cool, so have you got a handle on Calculus yet?

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## Brett Nortje

> Cool, so have you got a handle on Calculus yet?


Yes, the method i used to 'crush' that is to take the number in the brackets and multiply it by itself, then subtract the original number from the total.

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## adrianh

Amazing, and you worked this out while you were curing Aids!

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HR Solutions (09-Dec-15)

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## HR Solutions

> Yes, the method i used to 'crush' that is to take the number in the brackets and multiply it by itself, then subtract the original number from the total.




I'm lost ...... What happened to bodmas ?




> !! Going to my destruction !!


Where does this fit into things ?

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## bones

you dont need a qualification to study 
you dont need a qualification to think 
about things

talking about HIV and thinking of ways
to cure it is not wrong or bad but 
people want to be oversensitive 

that is a choice it is not wrong to try
and stop something that is hurting 
thousands of people 

who knows where the next cure may
come from you know penicillin came 
from a man that didn't do his dishes

trolls make me sick

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## HR Solutions

Lol.......

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## adrianh

> you dont need a qualification to study 
> you dont need a qualification to think 
> about things
> 
> talking about HIV and thinking of ways
> to cure it is not wrong or bad but 
> people want to be oversensitive 
> 
> that is a choice it is not wrong to try
> ...


Wha ha ha....trolls make him sick but he is going to cure aids....

So tell me, do you think rubbing your dangly bit with beetroot is a good cure...Mantu swore by it!

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## Dave A

> who knows where the next cure may
> come from you know penicillin came 
> from a man that didn't do his dishes


Not quite just *any* man -




> But it was not until 1928 that penicillin, the first true antibiotic, was discovered by Alexander Fleming, *Professor of Bacteriology at St. Mary's Hospital in London*.
> from Alexander Fleming’s Discovery of Penicillin


 :Oops: 

Having an appropriate background does help, I'm afraid. That's why access for all to a decent education is so important.

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## bones

> Not quite just *any* man -
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Having an appropriate background does help, I'm afraid. That's why access for all to a decent education is so important.


ok i get where you coming from Dave
in early year 2000 a new bread of 
hacker started to appear and things 
changed 

biohacking isnt just a term used on tv
there are smart people not necessarily 
qualified people stripping down dna for 
whatever reason 

there are even games you can download 
that look like puzzle games that is actual 
science using hit and miss probability

and allowed a youngster to cure a disease
with no knowledge about the sickness the 
youngster knew the rules of the game 




> Foldit is a revolutionary crowdsourcing computer game enabling you to contribute to important scientific research. This page describes the science behind Foldit and how your playing can help.


http://fold.it/portal/info/about




> Gamers played a protein-folding *game and solved an AIDS riddle* that, well, stumped scientists for years. The gamers unlocked the key protein involved in the reproduction of HIV, scientists announced in September, a discovery that will help in understanding AIDS and HIV research and in the design of antiretroviral drugs. This time around, instead of focusing on what the gamers discovered, scientists examined the methods the gamers used in the Foldit community.


http://www.zdnet.com/article/how-gam...cure-diseases/

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## adrianh

Whaha ha ha...so you're saying that we need dumba$$es to solve the worlds problems.

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## bones

> Whaha ha ha...so you're saying that we need dumba$$es to solve the worlds problems.


coming from a man that cant even 
download a game to help someone

that is the very definition of useless 
you can spend hours trolling but you
cannot spend 1 hour being useful 

UNLIKE The infinite monkey theorem
you are giving intelligent people tools 
to do something great with there 
knowledge allowing them to GIVE to 
other people 

the only dumba$$ is the a$$ that cant
see the potential basically these kids 
did more for humanity then you ever 
did 

in your face troll

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## adrianh

Wha ha ha ha...you're a funny guy. So tell me young man, what is it that you do for a living...other than cure cancer, play computer games and insult people on the net.

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## bones

> Wha ha ha ha...you're a funny guy. So tell me young man, what is it that you do for a living...other than cure cancer, play computer games and insult people on the net.


well if you cant read i cannot help you 
i already told people what i do and if
you cannot be bothered then it is your
problem 

ha ha ha...
and the joke is on you old trolling fart 
all you can do is sit here an be bitter 

i have wife and kids and i am not 
going to spend time here and watch 
you cry when i can spend time with 
them 

trolls are a waste of time you are a 
waste of time 

Brett is doing something to help 
people 

what can you do sit around and give 
frowns all day long

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## HR Solutions

lol .... Thanks for the late night laugh

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## adrianh

> well if you cant read i cannot help you 
> i already told people what i do and if
> you cannot be bothered then it is your
> problem 
> 
> ha ha ha...
> and the joke is on you old trolling fart 
> all you can do is sit here an be bitter 
> 
> ...


Ou broer, jy het darem n vreeslike vuil bek. Ek hoop dat jou man homself skrop met Sanpic nadat hy by jou "gekuier" het.

O ja, nou onthou ek, jy is die oudtjie wat bly in Lenasia saam jou man, sy squize en haar 18 kinders. Jy moet kom kuier hier in die kaap by Mitchells Plein maar jy moet kom met jou Golf met sy gif "go-faster-stripes"

Nou ek wil net weet, is "bones" vir BoneHead of HoutKop?

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## bones

> Ou broer, jy het darem n vreeslike vuil bek. Ek hoop dat jou man homself skrop met Sanpic nadat hy by jou "gekuier" het.
> 
> O ja, nou onthou ek, jy is die oudtjie wat bly in Lenasia saam jou man, sy squize en haar 18 kinders. Jy moet kom kuier hier in die kaap by Mitchells Plein maar jy moet kom met jou Golf met sy gif "go-faster-stripes"
> 
> Nou ek wil net weet, is "bones" vir BoneHead of HoutKop?


typical troll 

go wash your face old man you 
are not even worth an effort

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## adrianh

Wha ha ha ha, so how's the aids cure going?

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## bones

> Wha ha ha ha, so how's the aids cure going?


 
the admin dude doesnt like this game 
man better stop while you are ahead 

download the game do some good for 
a change if you can sit here and troll 
for hours and hours days and days 
weeks and weeks then you have the 
time to do something with your time 

unless you are to old to actually 
operate a mouse 

see you around old fart

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## adrianh

Cheers

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## bones

@adrianh i got some homework for you 
search for "random acts of kindness" you
you will find normal people doing amazing
things making a difference in cleaning up 
to helping people with math and science 
to helping hospital patients to 
rehabilitation    

it beats being a troll 24/7 all year round 
who knows you might even enjoy it 

simplifying math is a a excellent cause 
so i wish Brett all the best in doing what 
he does

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## Dave A

If Brett is doing such a good job of simplifying maths to make understanding easier, perhaps Bones would care to explain what Brett is trying to get at in this post then?




> In engineering maths, there are different types of angles. of course, if we were to observe that they all have a length and height and breadth, expressed or shown on the 'grid,' we could say they are two dimensional, as lines tend to be two dimensional.
> 
> If we were to observe that they will always be from a point to a point, we know none of them, well, in this sort of environment, will ever be, in the real world, infinite, as even a machine stops eventually as it is replaced, but that is besides the point.
> 
> The angles will always equal 'length' to 'height' at a ratio of away from ninety at certain 'distances.' this is obvious, and, cuts the formulas into little bits.
> 
> I am not sure about the specifics, but, this is a 'new law,' says me!

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## Brett Nortje

> If Brett is doing such a good job of simplifying maths to make understanding easier, perhaps Bones would care to explain what Brett is trying to get at in this post then?


Please try bones? for us!

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## adrianh

> @adrianh i got some homework for you 
> search for "random acts of kindness" you
> you will find normal people doing amazing
> things making a difference in cleaning up 
> to helping people with math and science 
> to helping hospital patients to 
> rehabilitation    
> 
> it beats being a troll 24/7 all year round 
> ...


Trying to simplify maths when you do not have a masters degree in math nor any training in education is as absurd as the layman trying to simplify brain surgery so that the man in the street can do it himself. 

Overvaluing one's own abilities is extremely dangerous because you not only prove that you are a fool, you prove it to the entire world.

Bones, ok, how about we stop insulting one another and to one another as adults. My views are not aimed at Brett or you or anyone in particular. I do not have much of a tertiary education myself but I have taught myself many different things so I know what it is like to be thought of as an uneducated dumba$$. Be that as it may, my brother and sister are extremely well educated and there is no denying whatsoever that formal education is needed to delve into the depths of 99% of topics.

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## HR Solutions

If this was the case then I could really have saved myself a whole lot of money getting my son thro university and obtaining a Civil Engineering degree.

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## bones

when i got time i will look at it 
but same goes for you have a 
look at the game and see if 
you can do it

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## adrianh

I honestly don't have time to play games.

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## Dave A

> when i got time i will look at it


 :Hmmm:  It might have been an idea to have had a proper look *before* you got into a scrap about it, boet.

I came across this during my morning wanderings, which seems pretty apt -



We all want to be special.
There's a fair chance that each of us has a particular talent where we're better than average (or more).
The trick is to pick the area(s) that do actually suit our talent.

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## adrianh

I have a great idea, @brett and @bones should persue their hobbies, who knows, maybe it leads to something useful.

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## HR Solutions

> I have a great idea, @brett and @bones should persue their hobbies, who knows, maybe it leads to something useful.


That is a good idea - they might be able to scrap the degree process & combine Doctors and Engineers into one .... after doing some new sums after 3 months  :Wink:

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## HR Solutions

I wish I knew about this 4 years ago ....... :Wink:

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## HR Solutions

> I really wonder for how much longer DaveA and the other admins are going to tolerate @bones


I agree ......... calling someone an asshole or a troll on a forum is really not a cool way of going about it, especially someone who has only 123 posts to their name calling little names to someone who has over 4000 posts to his name ............ Bones you are acting like a really Prick !


Posts like this are also really very immature ..........




> dickface tell you what go fuckyourself k 
> assholes like you belong in the trash

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## IanF

Can't you guys give it a break and stick to the topic. This reminds me when my kids used to fight but they were much younger!

Surely we are all adult enough to discuss something without name calling!

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Dave A (16-Dec-15)

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## HR Solutions

You are so right Ian ........so if we are not called a dickface or an asshole we can give it a break.

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## bones

> I really wonder for how much longer DaveA and the other admins are going to tolerate @bones


shame man i deleted it adrian
but what about you?

all eyes on you now lets see

maybe someone can help you 
delete all this stuff i deleted 
what i was allowed to delete 

but please stop to belittle 
people ok you can just tell 
someone you think this will 
not work and why you dont 
need to belittle people 

sharp bra

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## IanF

> shame man i deleted it adrian 
> but what about you?
> 
> all eyes on you now lets see


Bones can you stick to the topic as requested!

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## bones

> Bones can you stick to the topic as requested!


just asking a man a favor sir 
figured we both can cleanup 
our act a bit totally agree 
it got out of hand

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Dave A (16-Dec-15)

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## jackpowel

Engineering is a subject which is very difficult than the other subject. But anyone try to work hard for it, it is very easy to learn.

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## pmbguy

Jackpowel... sounds like an Indian name

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