# General Business Category > Business Finance Forum >  Investments ( containers/shares/forex)

## andrecv

I am very interested in investing abroad but there is such a lot of SCAMS nowadays that it's better to keep the extra rand under the pillow...anyone know of reputable offshore investment options...i did a bit of research on so called co's that pest me day and night regarding investing in forex, containers,etc...SCAMMERS i tell you they are even published on the most wanted lists abroad...what now...??? :Confused: 
I do have a few rands in SATRIX 40 but that is obviously long term...

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## riaano

Morning Andre,

The best and safest way is to invest your money with a local financial services provider, who diversify with funds offshore. I need to ask you though, why do you want to invest offshore? There are plenty of good vehicles to invest in locally

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## cejay

Hi Andrea!
It is a very good idea thinking out of the box. You make a better and imaginable profits investing abroad, though that is not a guarantee.

Some business fails and some prospers tremendously. This depends on what you would like to invest and the countries you have in mind.

There is Economic upsurge in some countries in Africa right now...Angola, Nigeria, Zambia, Equatoria Guinea...

Share your countries of choice and lets discuss it more.

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## Nickolai Naydenov

38% of local shares are owned by foreign investors, historically we've performed much better than developed economies, also offshore you have a second risk factor which is currency exchange rate, I personally invest into local equity and unlisted property shares. You have R22800 tax free profit per year on interest bearing assets, you invest into our economy, I personally believe you'll get better returns and so on.
With regards to your satrix 40 if you invested into a non-tracking fund you would have gotten much better returns guaranteed, anyway just a thought

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Blurock (24-Jul-12)

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## andrecv

thank you Nickolai...

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## andrecv

Thanks for the reply riaano but i do have a few local investments in my basket but maybe it is just going along at a slow pace according to me that is...

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## andrecv

Thanks Cejay...i prefer the european countries (UK,Germany and the like) i know it is kind of risky in the Eurozone currently but as the saying goes " from others misfortune comes your fortune"...

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## wynn

Before 'Democracy' dawned in SA there were a few guys who used local money to fabricate containers then leased them all over the world with the money going into a foreign account.

It was a 'Skelm' way of using local cash to generate foreign income and getting your cash out of the country.

I think the loophole was closed after a while, but not before a lot of horses had bolted.

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## riaano

So, if I understand correctly Andre, you have a couple of extra Bokke that you want to speculate with? Have a look here, this might be of interest to you..
http://www.theforumsa.co.za/forums/s...-has-ever-seen

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## Dave A

> i do have a few local investments in my basket but maybe it is just going along at a slow pace according to me that is...


Better than going backwards like many other parts of the world. The JSE has been doing quite well compared to most other markets.

If I was to look offshore... has anyone taken a close look at Australia and how their stock exchange has been performing?

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## Blurock

> I am very interested in investing abroad but there is such a lot of SCAMS nowadays that it's better to keep the extra rand under the pillow...anyone know of reputable offshore investment options...i did a bit of research on so called co's that pest me day and night regarding investing in forex, containers,etc...SCAMMERS i tell you they are even published on the most wanted lists abroad...what now...???
> I do have a few rands in SATRIX 40 but that is obviously long term...


Shares are long term investments, just like property. If you feel like speculating, rather start your own business buying and selling whatever. At least that way you are in charge of your investment and you can get out when you want to. Why risk investing off shore where the returns are dismal and the exchange rate may turn against you?

As Nickolai says; Invest in your own economy. :Cool:

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## Mark Atkinson

> If I was to look offshore... has anyone taken a close look at Australia and how their stock exchange has been performing?


No, but their currency has been getting a whole lot stronger.

A couple years back we were looking at R5 to the AU$, now it's drawing level with the US$! 

Regarding investing - I would definitely make sure I'm taking advantage of all the tax benefits available in SA for local investors before I looked abroad.

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## Dave A

> No, but their currency has been getting a whole lot stronger.


That's a big part of what made me wonder.

Look, there's some interesting emerging markets, although not knowing the finer points of what's really going on in those countries and the companies with decent traction I see them as... a tad on the risky side.

But Aus is a 1st world market, and indications are it's doing a heck of a lot better than pretty much all the other 1st world markets. Even if their stock exchange is pretty flat, that strengthening exchange rate adds quite a bit of spice.

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## cyppok

> That's a big part of what made me wonder.
> 
> Look, there's some interesting emerging markets, although not knowing the finer points of what's really going on in those countries and the companies with decent traction I see them as... a tad on the risky side.
> 
> But Aus is a 1st world market, and indications are it's doing a heck of a lot better than pretty much all the other 1st world markets. Even if their stock exchange is pretty flat, that strengthening exchange rate adds quite a bit of spice.


Australia is the last housing bubble standing (Canada began the decline apparently in July of this year technically they are the last 2 that are very big in developed world.) this is my view.

I also think SA is in bubble land but is emerging market etc...

If China goes into the crapper Iron ore, copper, and all the other stuff Australia sends there gets cheaper. You even have to consider it getting cheaper as we speak.

I'm beginning to believe what Bluerock and Nickolay say, investing in your own economy is the best thing out there. Control, flexibility, and the ability to move etc...

The JSE has been doing well because the rand has been inflated to a degree, also you have to consider the amount of growth available on African continent which is pretty decent. 

MY 3 cents of opinion right here. I actually really like the topics of currency, shares, property a lot and business. So if you notice I am very optimistic kinda talking about it.

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## Blurock

> Regarding investing - I would definitely make sure I'm taking advantage of all the tax benefits available in SA for local investors before I looked abroad.





> I'm beginning to believe what Bluerock and Nickolay say, investing in your own economy is the best thing out there. Control, flexibility, and the ability to move etc...


This is what the Americans and the Brits are doing now. Both countries are realising the benefits of local manufacturing and have started initiatives to re-invest in their manufacturing industries. :Scooter:

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## Miro Bagrov

Many online "Forex brokers" are scams..  Many of them just have very dirty tricks up their sleeves. For example they will let you trade with $1 which you can deposit with any SA cheque/credit card. But when time comes to withdraw the funds they will say you need a minimum of $100 to withdraw and the withdraw fee is $30. Which to me just says, why make the minimum deposit $1?? You can't possibly get it out. (In fact calculate how much you really need to invest and you see you need a fairly large position - which brings up in turn the question how much do I trust that broker to keep so much of my money???)
So the traps to watch out for are: Withdrawal of funds, the types of banks they allow, the types of fees incurred - because like a good honeycomb it's easy to get your hands in but hard to get them out.

Local brokers also have pitfalls. One is for example "holding fees" - which they say is for holding your certificate safe. So what if one wants to have their certificate on hand? Why pay the fee? Other fees could be called account management fees - fees charged monthly just because you have an account with that broker.  And are many other fees involved in buying local equity. The way to avoid them is also just solid calculation - and the result of the calculation it often becomes obvious that a fairly significant amounts of funds are needed to operate a profitable position.
However, it is not necessary to hold a direct equity position. Sometimes it is better to construct a synthetic cash position or trade warrants.

I do believe that a foreign position of some sort is absolutely necessary. 
There are several ways of managing exchange rate risk:
1) Options. 
Options on the JSE are unfortunately very much cast in stone and their expiry dates are here-and-there (maybe that suits people who don't transact very often)
Min contract is $1000, with USDZAR -the only one I know.
It works like this - you might want to pay a supplier in the future. That opens you to the risk that the rand will depreciate in the mean time. You buy a Call Option which expires around that time. If the price 

2) Futures
$1000 JSE contracts which fix the future price of a currency (long or short) - however notice the brokerage fees to keep the account open during the contract duration.

3) FRAs
Did you know that your bank can fix your exchange rate sometimes between 21 day at least into the future with an ordinary instruction over the counter at your bank's FOREX department?
However, like the above contract you have to buy the currency at the appointed time. Either way, you want to manage uncertainty (risk) - and this does take the uncertainty away.  The agreed rate will be a little higher than the spot rate (current rate)
Interesting point, how does the bank cover it's own risk? As you place the order to buy currency in the future, they go and buy it immediately using the spot rate and hold it for you. They are guaranteed to earn the difference between the quoted price which is a markup of the future price including interest.

4) Offshore deposit
Simply have the cash moved overseas when the exchange rate was good and keep it there to make payments from. (One way)

Investment is not a guessing game guys. It's really a risk avoidance game where you try butter your bread on both sides.  If you're short of butter don't eat the bread rather keep it in the fridge  :Smile:

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Dave A (05-Nov-12)

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