# Social Category > South African Politics Forum >  Got A SANRAL/e-toll Invoice what now?

## KristiKat

Apparently I got "snapped" while I was doing deliveries for my employer in Pretoria.

I did not open it yet, and was wondering what should I do now?

Apparently it is a criminal offence if you don't pay, cannot afford a criminal record, going to force my boss to pay it.

Funny thing is that the SYSTEM is not as of yet legitimized...and is still pending before the Supreme Court of Appeal on its "constitutionality"... WHICH Is also bothersome since constitutional matters should be heard by the Constitutional Court and not the Supreme Court of Appeal??!!!

Apparently they are SMSing people and sending them accounts to extort them into paying for a system that is not yet declared LEGIT.

CIVIL RESISTANCE against an unconstitutional system....read up on the link provided, that trade unions are also coming up in resistance thereof.

* criminal consequences when you don't pay your e-tolls............... how can it be criminal if there is no final verdict yet when it comes to the constitutionality of the legislation?

my uncle is paying my niece's e-toll accounts because he fears they are going to pull her over (being a white woman alone) and arrest her for her outstanding e-toll debts.....

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## IanF

Have a look at OUTA website they spell out your options very clearly.
e-tolls-to-tag-or-not-if-not-then-what 
As a lawyer you will be in a better position to advise us.

 :Yes:

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## KristiKat

my boss who is a LAWYER and has been for a very long time,

told me to throw it away,

after all you cannot force your employer to pay it.

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## KristiKat

what I find disturbing is that OUTA asks money to raise funds for doing the COURT CASE,

as if getting enough money from the PUBLIC is the main factor that will determine its success in fighting this.

this is a Constitutional issue and PEOPLE should be allowed to ADDRESS THE COURT freely in such cases.

and cases have to be taken up PRO BONO, if it has a huge effect on (and concerns) a moral certainty of society.

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## KristiKat

> Have a look at OUTA website they spell out your options very clearly.
> e-tolls-to-tag-or-not-if-not-then-what 
> As a lawyer you will be in a better position to advise us.


what are you doing?

are you paying yours if any?

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## pmbguy

If everybody chucks the bill in the bin and plays stupid then e-toll is dead. It only works and will work when we participate. If we cooperate not to cooperate then we got them by the short and curlies. We can make it all go away before they get a chance to pull us over.

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KristiKat (18-Mar-14)

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## KristiKat

First off all,

these bodies (Appellants) in the case brought the ISSUE in the wrong COURT,

they should continue it in the CONSTITUTIONAL COURT.

COURT CASE SUMMARY

actual judgment on leave of appeal

whenever it is about constitutionality of legislation, the application should be brought in the CONSTITUTIONAL COURT not in the HIGH COURT.

just funny that no one told them that, not even the judges presiding in the high court...

wonder why?

is the COURT SYSTEM now screwing itself over?

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## Justloadit

Firstly OUTA needs money to fight the case, as they need to employ advocates. Many of them have done probono work, but you can not spend half a year fighting a case with no income.

Secondly I have not paid my invoices, as the moment you pay, you accept their terms and conditions.

Thirdly SANRAL has been lying to the public, by stating that it is a criminal offense if you do not pay, and attempting to fool the public with SMSs and in one case that I know phoning the user for money. Just shows you the caliber of people we are dealing with at SANRAL.
The invoice is a civil case, and as such SANRAL must follow the same rules as any private company to get money out of a customer by issuing an invoice. It is gona cost them plenty of money to follow this route and also the courts will not be able to cope.

So hang onto the no payment route, we will beat them yet. It will take a good few months before it starts biting SANRAL. BE STRONG AND HOLD OUT

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IanF (18-Mar-14), KristiKat (18-Mar-14)

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## IanF

> what are you doing?
> 
> are you paying yours if any?


I got a bill the other day and have ignored it. Lets see what happens.

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KristiKat (18-Mar-14)

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## IanF

> First off all,
> 
> these bodies (Appellants) in the case brought the ISSUE in the wrong COURT,
> 
> they should continue it in the CONSTITUTIONAL COURT.
> 
> COURT CASE SUMMARY
> 
> actual judgment on leave of appeal
> ...


I thought for an issue to go to the constitutional court it had to be referred from a lower court first.

Is this not the case?

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## HR Solutions

I never signed a contract with them and they are getting me into debt beyond my means. Thats reckless lending on their part.

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KristiKat (18-Mar-14)

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## wynn

Just RTS the envelope 'Adressee unknown' then see what they do.

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KristiKat (18-Mar-14)

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## pmbguy

I still fondly remember the first time I heard a sanral ad, something funny about using teleportation as an alternative to the highways. They were attempting to pacify future resistance because “hey its the only practical option” spiel.

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KristiKat (18-Mar-14)

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## KristiKat

> Firstly OUTA needs money to fight the case, as they need to employ advocates. Many of them have done probono work, but you can not spend half a year fighting a case with no income.
> 
> Secondly I have not paid my invoices, as the moment you pay, you accept their terms and conditions.
> 
> Thirdly SANRAL has been lying to the public, by stating that it is a criminal offense if you do not pay, and attempting to fool the public with SMSs and in one case that I know phoning the user for money. Just shows you the caliber of people we are dealing with at SANRAL.
> The invoice is a civil case, and as such SANRAL must follow the same rules as any private company to get money out of a customer by issuing an invoice. It is gona cost them plenty of money to follow this route and also the courts will not be able to cope.
> 
> So hang onto the no payment route, we will beat them yet. It will take a good few months before it starts biting SANRAL. BE STRONG AND HOLD OUT


yes it can be seen as civil when you agree to ENTER into a contract with them...

thing i have noticed is that on the day I went through the N1 toll route, 

WHITE photographers were sitting there in front of the "loop of overhead cameras",

got me thinking,

so why should we pay for  A SYSTEM that does NOT WORK?

when they have to get photographers to do it manually?

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## KristiKat

> I still fondly remember the first time I heard a sanral ad, something funny about using teleportation as an alternative to the highways. They were attempting to pacify future resistance because hey its the only practical option spiel.


well let's hope this inspires engineers to make more useful technology that does not exploit humans/society,

they probably only did it because they had no other choice to feed their families too...




> I never signed a contract with them and they are getting me into debt beyond my means. Thats reckless lending on their part.


yep, did we sign an IOU?

THEY would probably classify it as WE DID, 

since we are subconsciously enjoying the benefits of a "social contract" we went on with the government 

the moment we breathed air in this world, to get an ID, 

and to start paying tax, 

as part of being the cattle and bar coding we must accept it as our lot.




> I thought for an issue to go to the constitutional court it had to be referred from a lower court first.
> 
> Is this not the case?


not always - read here interesting case law

we can see social upheaval perhaps as a matter of urgency no?

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## KristiKat

In terms of section 167(4)(b), only the Constitutional Court may decide on the constitutionality of any parliamentary Bill

that means even after it was approved by parliament it is still liable for judicial screening on its constitutional validity.

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## Hermes14

On the outa facebook websit they all invoices are illegal.
You can lodge a dispute on the outa website & outa will fight it for you free of charge
 facebook

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KristiKat (20-Mar-14)

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## Justloadit

> Just RTS the envelope 'Adressee unknown' then see what they do.


The problem is that they have made it a blank white envelope, with a return on the back of the envelope. It is very difficult to tell that it is a SANRAL letter until you have opened it. Again being devious, as they knoww the public would do just that.

However if you look very carefully with a strong light, the eToll emblem may be seen through the white envelope, ready to be turfed into the bin.

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KristiKat (20-Mar-14)

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## Justloadit

> On the outa facebook websit they all invoices are illegal.
> You can lodge a dispute on the outa website & outa will fight it for you free of charge
>  facebook


True, however they will simply reissue the invoice correctly.

Same story with the traffic fines, it was illegal to simply send it by normal post, but now I am inconvenienced every time there is a speeding fine, because I now have to collect the registered letter at the post office during office hours during my work time. At the end of the day a traffic fine must be paid, irrespective of how you find out about it. Now it costs me more in time because of the registered letter collection. It has not stopped the traffic departments of placing cameras all over the show to collect income, what should have been done was fight the system of placing cameras all over the place, impeding free movement.

Whether the invoice is correct or not does not detract that they will persist until correct, and they could be one step closer to shutting the door.
It is important to get the complete shambles thrown out, rather than picking at the petty things which are easily corrected.

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KristiKat (20-Mar-14)

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## KristiKat

> On the outa facebook websit they all invoices are illegal.
> You can lodge a dispute on the outa website & outa will fight it for you free of charge
>  facebook


YEAH GOT HARASSED VIA SMS TODAY TOO, to pay because today is the supposedly the last day for a possible discount on UNOWED MONIES

To ALL e-tagged and e-toll registered users of Sanral’s e-tolled roads
If you are uncomfortable accepting the following then by all means continue to support Sanral's immoral and unscrupulous e-tolls and pay the price.
Did you know that -
>E-tagged users are in the minority by a factor of about 3:1
>Sanral are contravening the Debt Collectors Act
>Sanral are breaching the Council for Debt Collectors code of conduct
>Sanral are contravening the Consumer Protection Act
>Sanral are failing to protect users personal information entrusted to them
>Sanral;s web site has been hacked a number of times and your personal information may have been compromised and can be used to prejudice you
>Sanral have denied their web site data has been compromised and has failed to advise registered users who's personal information has been compromised, in fact, they are unable to determine which e-toll accounts have been compromised.
>Sanral claim the e-toll legislation has been legally upheld in the courts, however, it has yet to pass Constitutional Court scrutiny
>The South African Revenue Service will not accept e-toll invoices rendered by Sanral
>It is virtually impossible for Sanral to prosecute all the users who fail to pay e-tolls. The courts are under immense pressure just handling day to day “normal” prosecutions let alone thousands of daily e-toll cases .
>E-tagged users who fail or are unable to pay their e-toll within the prescribed time are, to all intent and purpose, classified as un-registered users and incur the same punitive penalties applied to unregistered users. The e-toll cap of R450 applies only to e-tagged users whose accounts are “up to date”
>Sanral’s systems are plagued with billing errors, from cloned license plates, allocations to incorrect accounts to mis-calculation of the e-toll payable. As an e-tagged user you do not receive a detailed invoice unless you fail to pay within the grace period - the amount charged to your e-tagged account may well be incorrect.
Join the swelling number of people opposed to Sanral’s e-toll extortion - take charge of your life and refuse to pay e-toll for using your roads. Use your roads freely, for FREE.
All you need to do is stop paying Sanral and not succumb to their lies, bullying tactics and threats. Together we can ALL put an end to Sanral’s unilateral, immoral and unjust e-toll system.
Internet links to broaden your mind. Join the e-toll revolution and shed your e-tag.
OUTA - https://www.facebook.com/outasa
Proudly e-Tag free - https://www.facebook.com/groups/proudly.etagfree/
OUTA

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## KristiKat

> The problem is that they have made it a blank white envelope, with a return on the back of the envelope. It is very difficult to tell that it is a SANRAL letter until you have opened it. Again being devious, as they knoww the public would do just that.
> 
> However if you look very carefully with a strong light, the eToll emblem may be seen through the white envelope, ready to be turfed into the bin.


maybe they should decide to decorate it differently to NOT LOOK like obvious daylight robbery...




> True, however they will simply reissue the invoice correctly.
> 
> Same story with the traffic fines, it was illegal to simply send it by normal post, but now I am inconvenienced every time there is a speeding fine, because I now have to collect the registered letter at the post office during office hours during my work time. At the end of the day a traffic fine must be paid, irrespective of how you find out about it. Now it costs me more in time because of the registered letter collection. It has not stopped the traffic departments of placing cameras all over the show to collect income, what should have been done was fight the system of placing cameras all over the place, impeding free movement.
> 
> Whether the invoice is correct or not does not detract that they will persist until correct, and they could be one step closer to shutting the door.
> It is important to get the complete shambles thrown out, rather than picking at the petty things which are easily corrected.


so it must be picked up by registered post? all of them?

as a measure to ensure that YOU GOT IT, that they have proof that you picked it up, or that it was delivered to you? to have a "case" against you since you did receive it?

i found out today that registered mail can be traced, each letter has its unique code or number, and when you want to know when the person it was addressed to picked it up, you just dial the 0860 TOLL FREE number at the registered post offices... 

TOLL FREE numbers to TRACE registered mail invoices...get it?

lmfao...

they want to MAKE USE of toll free telephone calls to trace road travellers in the sense that they GOT A TAXED account for tolling fees?

wtf?

so are you paying yours? if you say that in the end of the day it must be paid?...

on invoices being correct?

apparently the invoices are NOT BASED on standard fees,

people who do not even go through the toll routes,

get taxed out of nowhere......

and they can basically pick any amount to charge you with....

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