unhappy customer

[murdock]

no punishment...no law.

[Leecatt]

Electrical compliance certificates

I came into the electrical industry about 6 years ago at a time when electricians would not venture anywhere near signing a certificate for fear of prosecution. I went in head first and specialised in the certificate, what a way to start a new business - very little competition. For years i was at it, never made a mistake or even had a single comeback. I offered a quality service and i made sure the job was done correctly, not difficult as i was the only one doing the work. As time went by the fear of prosecution waned and now everyone is doing it again. Now the customer has a choice between me and the cheapie and it is an uphill battle to stay in business as i am not prepared to compromise my principals. How many times do i come across a place where the seller has inherited a substandard certificate and now, years later is handed a hefty bill for repairs. They look at me as if i am making it up and recently, due to the rising cost of things it has led to heated debates as people are trying to cut corners everywhere and fixing up the house so someone else can live in it is not high on their priority list. Its about time the infamouse "Roadshow" went around the country again just to drive home the realistion that issuing a certificate that is not 100% correct is fraud and nothing else. Time for a beer

[Dave A]

i am busy trying to put together a monthly meeting or something which electrical contractors can get together once a month or every 2 months and discuss issues with regards to electrical installations...safety issues or any relevant problems which occur in the electrical industry with regards to the standards...testing installations etc.

I'm sure my electricians would be interested. Let me know if you get something together, Murdock.

[murdock]

i am busy trying to put together a monthly meeting or something which electrical contractors can get together once a month or every 2 months and discuss issues with regards to electrical installations...safety issues or any relevant problems which occur in the electrical industry with regards to the standards...testing installations etc...i belong to the ECA and attend their meeting but find the meetings boring because they maily discuss labour issues etc...i am more interested in technical issues.

i am hoping to get suppliers to sponsor the meeting.

the idea is to get a small groups together with experienced people working in the field and discuss issues for example generators...in the real world not to come up with ideas created by people who sit in offices all day and dont know what it is like out in the field...i want to get together with people who are out there working in the field experiencing the problems which we face everyday the dangers and most importantly come up with realistic solutions.

i hear electricians complaining everyday but nobody actually doing anything to prevent future problems and no policing of exsisting problems...i think the way forward is educate people and have a call centre where if you are uncertain about a regulation you can contact a help line and clarify a clause or rule which you dont understand...and most importantly to procecute people who blatently disregard the rules...i of all people am not perfect and i make mistakes but you can see when a person is pulling the as* out of the regulations...these people need to be dealt with severly because electricity kills people.

watch this clip to get an idea of what dangers we are faced with on a daily basis and why i get angry when companies send unskilled staff to site creating an even more dangerous enviroment for us to work in.

http://esasafe.com/Contractors/ets_004.php?s=24

i have also attached a picture of a changeover switch which caught on fire costing a company over R30000 in damages...but more importantly...it could have arced and burnt the electrician...the breaker feeding the switch is rated at 500 amps...so you can imagine the masive explosion it would have caused.

[Dave A]

The original intention of the COC was to protect the new owner.

That is where the wheels come off right there.

The original purpose of introducing the electrical COC was to establish a national system of accreditation for certifying electrical installations as fit for connection to the main supply. Previously, an electrician had to get accredited with each electricity supplier (Eskom/each municipality) seperately for the connection of new installations. And even then, each new installation was tested by the bulk supplier's electrician who was responsible for the connection standards to the supply. When it came to maintenance and add-ons to installations already connected, there was effectively no control in place.

This purpose is quite a long way from protecting all the interests of the new owner in regard to matters electrical for the property they are buying. In this regard, at most it can be said that the COC is intended to protect the safety of the user.

[murdock]

you get a single phase tester who can only test single phase installations normally being the standard house,shop or small factory...they cannot test 3 phase or specialised installations.

then you get an installation tester...who can test all single phase and 3 phase installations... but not specialised installations.

then you get master electricians who can inspect any installation single phase, 3 phase and specialised installations...areas which are zoned etc...like spray booths...where there are high risks...like dust... liquids...gasses.

we are isssued with a card...it looks like a drivers license.

that is why i dont advertise...my customers are all referals...i go to every single site were my company works i show my staff what to do and how i want it done...i then check every single job personally that is carried out by my company or i personally do the job...if the work is not carried out to my standard it is redone at my expense.

i have pulled and entire installation off the wall in front a customer who was quite happy to accept the cr*p workmanship...but unfortunatley i was not happy...because of things like the spacing between the saddles were not the same etc...the joke was that the employee was so proud of his mess...he got fired.

[Karenwhe]

Ok, must think about all this, but so far I got a few points that can be put together.

1. Look for the certification (now as Duncan asked, we just need to know what is this certification and how it looks like).

2. Then it may not be a good idea to have the sellers electrician do the job. So, in the OTP maybe we (decent estate agents), should change the clause that the buyer will do the CoC at the sellers cost. But we will have to put limits as to market related costs and stuff otherwise buyers will take advantage and of course the seller has to fix stuff if things are wrong, but the buyers electrician has to make sure it was fixed to real, not just said to be fixed before the CoC is issued. Maybe this will work, need to think more about this.

So far so good, now how do we ensure we get a good electrician, even if he is certified.

After Murdocks' example I am starting to think that the only way to do this is by referral and never contact anyone in the y.book or any ads.

So, the question remains. I get an electrician, he quotes me X, regardless of the price, I assume it is correct and market related for the job to be done, but I still don't know if the job will be done correctly, well, or done at all.

Maybe we need a website like elance and rentacoder with electricians in SA, where they are listed and rated by customers with property reviews?

Maybe Dave with Murdock can do this. It may take time to build something like this and have a lot of people on it, but may change the face of things which Murdock is rightfully complaining about.

Side note: Yvonne, estate agents are a very difficult bunch. I have become one because, I no longer wanted to deal with them. Believe it or not, being a property investor, I had enough with estate agents (some of them are very good, but it is rare). I still have to deal with them nonetheless, but now I draw up my own contracts and I know the profession inside out to ensure my deals are my customers deals are done correctly (that is not to say we never have problems, but at least as a buyers agent, I can protect now the buyer from the sellers agent). It in many seem as a ridiculous thing to have to do, but in the investing business we have to. In the home ownership business, it is not done because a buyer will never pay an estate agent to negotiate the deal for them and make sure everything is ok, which puts them at the mercy of the sellers agent. In the investing industry people understand and know the value of buyers agents.

Most of them are under educated in their profession and all their care about is their commission. Unfortunately I have to agree with Yvonnes comments about estate agents completely. Hopefully with the suggested changes by the DTI this will change in the next 5 years or so.

Edited to add comment to Yvonnes' post about estate agents: For all those home buyers and investors out there as far as estate agents are concerned. Please ask for the fidelity fund certificate of the estate agent to make sure they are even allowed to trade in their profession - otherwise they are not due commission and you don't have to pay them and you can do directly to the owner and they can't sue you for comm because they were not allowed to trade.

[duncan drennan]

every single person who works in the electrical field is given an identity card which indicates his qualification...request it to see it

What qualification should someone issuing a COC have?

[murdock]

as an electrician i deal with these issues everyday

some times i wish i was a plumber...yes it is that bad.

the bottom line is regardless of how you interperate the rules and regulations is the property safe yes or no... it is that simple.

as i have mentioned before you dont buy a car without having it checked out...why invest a huge amount of money in a property and let the seller tell you the house is ok.

a simple way is to make sure the person working on your site is actually qualified to be doing what he is doing...i have been hearing rumours and have experienced it first hand where a person arrived at the house i rent to do a test because the property was being sold...the person who arrived to do the test didnt know that i am a master electricain and my van was locked inside the garage...when he completed the test and repairs using only a multi meter a screwdriver and pair of pliers...i asked him about the garage and testers required... he replied that "the house was ok...the garage is normally just a plug and light so it should be fine... he didnt need more than just a multimeter and the person who signs over the COCs for him trusts that he does the test correctly even though is not even a qualified electrician"...well that almost floored me.

every single person who works in the electrical field is given an identity card which indicates his qualification...request it to see it...i have people looking for work all the time telling me they are qualified yet they cannot show proof of qualification...the latest one had all his certificates given to him on the same date from the same college...they included a senior certificate...ntc1/2/3...i suspected something was wrong so i fired him.

[Yvonne]

The original intention of the COC was to protect the new owner.

The unintended consequences are that the new owner believes he has the assurance that the electrical installation is within an acceptable range of compliance.

However this is not so, case after case.

We had the identical circumstances - certificate issued prior to carrying out the work! to hasten the transfer.
We got our own electrician in to do a report, lots wrong!

Why not "shift" the responsibility from the seller solely to being the buyers responsibility to control the inspection, and then ensure the remedial work is carried out, the benefit is that they will know exactly what costs are involved, and the buyer can try to ensure that the work is carried out as per the quotation.

Everyone should include a clause in the sale offer for property that the offer is subject to certain inspections - proof provided that all alterations and additions have passed and approved plans, electrical inspection certificate obtained by the buyer, and just to be safe engineers inspection and approval as well.

To cut a long story short, we purchased a pretty house, with what appeared like a sturdy carport, which had an entertainment area at the back of the house.

To date we have had to demolish the carport - exceptionally unsafe, and demolish the additions, completely not according to plans neither structurally nor in compliance with boundary restrictions.
Legal costs for dealing with all the professionals involved as well as demolishing costs have amounted to approx R50,000
We now sit with a very unattractive home, and still have to have plans drawn, submitted and passed and then the rebuid.

We managed to halt the transfer until we reached an agreement, got R100,000 towards restitution, but this is not going to replace the visual aspect of the home as it was when we purchased it.
We could not "fight" for more funds as there was a clause which did not confer tenancy regardless of the "fault" of either party.
So basically whilst we had a legal right to hold up the transfer they had the right to evict us! Also the estate agent (Had a strong relationship with the family selling the home!) had given us the wording of the clauses which we insisted on - legal opinion was that the wording was suspect and we could potentially lose the case if it went to court.
So never, ever trust an estate agent - apologies to all the decent estate agents around.

The lawyer actually asked me, where on earth I had got the idea that the estate agent was going to have our best interest in mind, let alone ensure that she was taking care of our bet interest!!! So - take care.

Eventually we just had to settle for whatever we were offered.

We have had a few problems with our electrics - and my husband wants to have an entire rewire carried out.

So, forget any hope of getting a fair situation, and take the responsibility for ensuring you are fully aware of the potential costs of remedial electrical work yourself - no-one else cares!!!

Apologies for sounding so negative - but experience comes at a high cost!!

[Dave A]

I could spend all day answering that post, Karen. I'm going to come back to in it bits as I get the chance.

I used to do a session for estate agent training that used to cover these very points. But to kick things off:

The root problem is the size of the gap between expectation and realisation.

• The seller is going, and really just wants to get out of there as cheaply as possible. Any extra cost is a nuisance or more. If it works, it must be OK. If they aren't aware of a problem, it doesn't exist and you just created it. (All I want is the certificate).
• The purchaser is getting the property, and wants the equivalent of a flawless building, even if it is obviously a "renovators dream." Basically, they expect everything to work as if it were brand new. After all, they've just bought it. (Where is my warranty).
• The electrician must check and test to ensure that the installation is up to regulatory standard. That does not mean that everything works, and the standard applicable might not be the current standard. Further, those regulations themselves can be tricky to interpret at times. (I wonder if this is going to bite me in the ass one day).
• The estate agent wants the sale to go through - but they don't always apply the right priorities to maximise their chances. (Where is my commission).
• The conveyancor has to execute strictly according to contract and law. (In the case of electrical) The contract and law requires an electrical COC to be issued. I've got one. (The requirement has been met).

More on this later.

[Karenwhe]

As an estate agent and a property investor, I know exactly the problems from more cases than I can count by now.

I just want to know what is the solution.

We do not give kickbacks to electricians or anyone else for that matter, but the problem with electricians that give cocs like that is persistent.

I am sure that many good electricians won't lie, but take me for example, I don't understand this stuff. How will I know I am dealing with a good electrician or a bad one that will just take money and not do the job properly?

And since we talk about money the public wouldn't know if they are charges 10K for a good reason or a ripoff, that is why I think they opt for the cheap. What do they know anyway, I don't for sure.

I would love to know that. I am dealing with many investors that buy property and they don't have a clue is the coc is right or wrong.

When they ask me in the forum and say stuff doesn't work the coc couldn't have possibly be done properly or they get their own electrician and say that - I tell them to turn to the legal system. But the legal system is just not worth the money to sue the seller or the electrician it costs too much. Most rather fix it and move on.

So, guys what is the solution to the common person that is not an electrician?

Oh, and one more thing. I have heard recently of two different opposite statements of how long does a coc last (the difference were between Gauteng and KZN, is there really a difference between the provinces?)

Thanks.

P.S. as a side note, i don't know who regulates the electrician profession, but have you ever tried to deal with the lawyers regulatory bodies? Might as well give up before you get started.

[murdock]

i will say it again...until the electrical industry is policed and the crimminals working in the industry are prosecuted...the man in the street will be ripped off...and as an electrical contractor in KZN i feel for the customers because we dont have any policing what so ever...i have tried all sorts of things including sending reports to the ECA...written to wendy knowler...etc...etc nobody wants to take this monster (electrical industry) on...i think there are just toooo many problems.

[Dave A]

That's one thing that bugs me a bit. Folks who don't want to pay for the test when you did nothing wrong other than find all the faults. The fact that you didn't issue a COC has nothing to do with it. You did the test and are entitled to payment for your services.

[Electrick]

Speaking from the electricians point of view : Everyone expects you to pitch
up at their house , and take a few readings with your multimeter , and then declare the place safe.

The problem is , if the place is in a bad state. 1) You can't give a certificate - wich means you'll not be paid your R 750 / whatever you ask , and 2) The owner will trip over his heels and swallow his tung if you
tell him about the state of his installation , and the R 15 000 it's gonna
cost to do it right.

So , you end up not getting paid for the Certificate , 'cause you can't
give it , and he just gets someone else who's willing to say that the
problems you pointed out is not that serious .

Excuse my spelling - I'm afrikaans.

THERE ARE STILL GOOD AND HONEST ELECTRICIANS OUT THERE.
I DON'T HAVE TO LIE TO A CLIENT TO EARN MY MONEY.