Amway/Network 21

[Rob Hepple]

I believe that post has already been made.

Ok - I heard this morning that the Law Society is complaining that new law graduates don't have a grip on basic maths (or reading for that matter), so let me do the maths for you. Ignoring start-up costs as pretty much once-off, the relative monthly turnovers would be:

N21 turnover (Totals R686.67 per month)
Monthly BBS meeting - R100
Weekly meetings - R20 x 52 / 12 = R86.67
Quarterly WES - R750 / 3 = R250
Annual membership - R120 / 12 = R10 (I think that actually goes to Amway, but just in case)
CEP - R240

Amway turnover (totals R1200 per month).
Product sales - R1200

(I think it's reasonable to assume if you're "going all the way" on the N21 support program, you're going to spend this order of money on the product too).

Now here's your challenge - put that N21 package together for less money. Have you costed booking a venue for a convention lately, let alone all the other essential expenses required to make it an event?

Or bought any good books?

You probably should take a better look around TFSA. Very little spam but lot's of divergent opinions. Contrary opnions are encouraged - it's up to the reader to draw their own conclusions.

And on the subject of conclusions, here's mine on you:

• You've made up your mind already (which isn't a problem - in fact, good for you ).
• You shouldn't do Amway (I can guarantee you will fail).

You're welcome to disagree.

Let me help you with that, Rob. Just copy and paste this onto your list:

[-]Dave A[/-] (Got his own business opportunity going already and very happy with it).
Will buy the toothpaste.

[B]NEXT![/B]

I must say this recent spurt of activity in this thread had me pondering (once again) just what the crux of the Amway controversy might be. And a relatively new perspective came to mind -

When you look at the investment, it really is no big deal once you get to a level making lots of money. But getting to some small gain, like an extra R2000 per month nett - it's an absolute monster.

If all you are looking for is an extra R2k per month (and I've got a story to tell on this, but another time as it's getting late) there are other, more favourable options.

The figures are right. The R686.87 is also tax deductable. The money my wife and I spend through the business ( personal care, home care, food, clothing, cellphone, short-term insurance, internet connection etc.) is money I would be spending anyway and it costs less than buying it in the store. With the odd handbag (which my wife considers vital) and clothing items it is always a lot more than R1200. As to Dave A not succeeding you've got to consider the number of old Distributors coming back into the business and now making a go of it.
Got you going there didn't I, Dave A?

[Dave A]

As to Dave A not succeeding...

?

Nice try

[Brelin]

Hi

I went to a Amway seminaar last night and am interested as to know how you started. I have spoken to other individuals who are very negative and believe you have to sell Amway product to become successful. How much time did you commit per week to Amway

[Blurock]

If it looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it probably is a duck! This appears to be a scheme and not a business. Why do members try to get you to presentations without telling you up front that they are trying to recruit you? Why do you have to go to a venue to sit through a high powered marketing presentation without being introduced to the products or the actual company behind all this? Money is the main motivator. This is no doubt a pyramid scheme with some benefits to some people, but the poor suckers still pay! Why is everything so secretive (is it because it is American like the Klu Klux Clan)? If we all buy these American products online, what will happen to our South African businesses and the people working for it? I will appreciate if any one has more information to share, but on face value this does not appeal to me.

[Rob Hepple]

Hi Brelin.
Well done for going to the presentation yesterday. Are there negative people out there? You had better believe it. 99.9% do not have a clue what they're talking about. We DO NOT sell Amway products to become successful. I usually spend between 7 and 12 hours per week building the business. If you need more information about the business speak to the person who invited you to the meeting. Network 21 is the best adult business education system around and Amway is far and away the best network marketing system in the world. Turnover for 2010 was a little over 9.2 billion dollars (more than 66 billion Rand). They've been helping people to start their own business' for 51 years. Just do it. It's worth it.

[Rob Hepple]

Hi Blurock.
I'm inviting you to an Network 21 meeting. You live in Durban and so do I. I'm sure you will find it informative.

[Blurock]

Thanks Rob, I've been to one - hence the comments. Why did they not tell me up front of the costs involved? Attending weekly & monthly meetings? No one told me about that. Only picked it up on this thread. And you have to pay for listening to someone jabbering on a cd - Monthly! I am happy in my business. I will never get rich, but I do have the satisfaction of mentoring some entrepreneurs to success and adding value to their business. Everything is done in the open with no hidden agendas. I do not think I will be able to perform in a structure such as Amway.

[Rob Hepple]

Hi Blurock.
Could we meet sometime this week. Definitely will not try to get you into the business. I'm sure you'll be open to listen to the truth.

[Christine_Sutherland]

Clarity is required - what are the central issues?

I'm not an MLM critic, although I do strongly criticise the poor practices that abound in the industry. There are some excellent MLMs out there and they are excellent because they operate by the MLM Code of Ethics, they pass due diligence, and people in them earn money.

In assessing Amway, as in assessing any opportunity, your due diligence should mean finding out how many levels up from you are people actually earning any significant money from sales of consumable product (not from forced purchases of motivational material).

Also, in the leveraged business model, the bulk of your earnings will be in the "back end", that is 4 or more levels below you. If Amway is only paying on 3 levels, statistically you can see quite clearly that you will earn around 10-100 times less than a company paying 4 to 6 levels deep.

I recommend everyone here grab a copy of the book "How to Make More Money" available free from Smashwords so that when you're evaluating any business, especially including an MLM, you do so with your eyes wide open and ensure you get the best possible financial return for your time and effort.

Now in addition to this people must realise there are upfront costs in any business, and there are ongoing costs. In most MLMs these are ridiculously small compared to traditional business. And, within 3 months these should be completely covered by earnings, IF you're following a proven, duplicable system.

Ongoing training, support, and mentoring will also be required, NO MATTER YOUR BACKGROUND. In most cases this is free or almost free and in my opinion someone who doesn't soak up as much as humanly possible of this is not going to make it. There is a learning curve.

If you just do this, and you've chosen a company that has consumable products that people actually do want, and can't get elsewhere, then you have a good chance of succeeding in terms of maybe earning a few hundred or a few thousand dollars a month.

However if you want the really big money, as in tens of thousands or hundreds of thousands a month, that requires more advanced skills, particularly in terms of teaching and mentoring others, and manufacturing power lines (money lines). It also means becoming a leader of leaders, stepping up in terms of personal development, reaching new levels of disciplined thought and disciplined action.

None of this is easy, but the rewards are out of all proportion to the effort applied. I can tell you that it's a very rewarding life, on every level, far more than just financially.

[Blurock]

Thanks for the invite Rob. I think its only fair to first speak to the guys who introduced me.

[Rob Hepple]

Hi Christine.
Anyone who truly has done due diligence on MLM in general and Amway specifically would know that most of these comments are way off the mark. Any MLM that is restricted in levels or depth is firstly restricted in income and secondly in longevity, whether it is 3,4,6,9 or whatever. Amway has never and never will be restricted in levels. Even if I have, as an example, someone on level 1000, because of the way the business is structured, I will still have some benefit coming through. It goes on forever. As for Network 21, it is the finest networking business and education system on the planet, personally endorsed by Robert Kiyosaki. As for reading in Network 21 we subscribe to a book every month, not just about network marketing but about lifeskills, relationship building etc. Nobody is forced to purchase motivational material and our money is made from consuming products. (of which there are now more than 1000 in South Africa- Australia has, as far as I know, close to 10,000.)
Yes, network marketing is not easy but by the same token starting any new business is not easy. They both require commitment. With Network marketing, specifically Amway, there is no risk. If you feel that after 90 days that the business is not for you, you can get your money back. I have yet to find another MLM with this type of guarantee.
There are a number of Universities in the United states where you can enrol for a degree in Network Marketing. I would suggest, as a starting point in your due diligence, that one of these might help.

[Rob Hepple]

Hi Blurock.
Great idea.

[thanethomson]

There's a fundamental flaw in Network 21's value proposition. See this article I wrote here: http://thanethomson.com/2012/03/28/t...e-proposition/

[Dave A]

When people drop links rather than make a point here, I'm inclined to get a little feisty

So

The first part of their value proposition is fine – it’s the second part that really creeps me out, and my reasoning here is very simple.

It's probably more complex than the business, but let's look at it anyway.

Ask yourself: why is it that you want more time? Most people would answer that they want more time to spend with their loved ones.

Statisticaly most people answer that they want to travel.

But that's cool. You want to spend more time with your loved ones, so let's look at that.

The problem is, for the average person without an extensive personal network (like the average people that attend such meetings as I did on Monday), the only people you really end up signing up are your friends and family.

They, in turn, end up doing the same with their friends and family, and so on

I had 2 friends and one family member sign up, and a bunch of total strangers - some of whom eventually became friends. But if you won't talk to strangers, I guess you're right.

BTW - would you be interested in making some new friends?

(until of course there’s nobody willing left to sign up - but nobody talks about that possibility, they only talk about how this sort of thing has worked so well for the last 50-odd years).

Actually people do - it's just that talking about churn and people quitting and how it means the people who do the work end up getting the reward is probably a bit advanced for an introductory meeting

So if I sign up to this thing, I’m basically taking a cut of my friends’ and family’s grocery bills every month, so that I can get more time to spend time with them? How many of these people still actually have real friends and close family relationships after duping them into signing up for this sort of thing? How would you feel if your friend got you signed up to this thing under the auspices that it would be good for you?

Actually, they were all pretty cool about it.

I would feel used. This is exactly the opposite of what the second part of their value proposition seems to offer, and so, to me, is fundamentally contradictory.

So if that wasn't a problem, is there anything else bugging you?

BTW - how is your current plan to spend more time with your friends and loved ones working out?

[thanethomson]

Thanks Dave. I felt I'd made my point pretty clearly in my blog post and didn't feel like re-typing it here. Apologies for the delayed response - I seem to have missed the e-mail notification of your reply.

My current plan to spend more time with my friends and loved ones is actually working out quite well - I can probably count the number of evenings and weekends I've spent at home by myself in 2012 on my one hand, and I've probably met nearly a hundred new people just this past year (and at the age of 27, I'm not even on Facebook - can you believe it?). This is primarily because I put a high value on real-world relatonships in general, and do my best to plan my work around my relationships, instead of the other way around. I was never really an outgoing person - I was quite withdrawn as a child and had to make a conscious decision in the past few years to value people and relationships (above travelling, by the way).

Also, I'm lucky in that the work I've chosen to do is quite niche, and allows me to charge a premium for my effort. There's something about doing productive work that's in line with who you are that's incredibly empowering and rewarding. Read Erich Fromm's "The Fear of Freedom" (http://www.kalahari.com/books/The-Fe...2/9720602.aspx) to understand my perspective on productive work.

The difference between what I do and what I see Network 21 doing is that I can actually tell you what value I'm helping other people capture, and I capture some of that value with them: win-win.

In Network 21, I see many, many people losing for a very long time, and very few people winning. The few who do win depend heavily on those who don't. This is not sustainable, and morally wrong, in my opinion. To understand my perspective on value and morality, please read "Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance" (http://www.kalahari.com/books/Zen-an.../29092339.aspx) and its sequel "Lila" (http://www.kalahari.com/books/Lila/632/41183978.aspx) by Robert Pirsig. He's probably one of the most forward-thinking modern philosophers, and his ideas are far ahead of their time (he has an IQ of 170, so it's understandable they'd be ahead of their time).

Once you've read those books, i.e. when we have some more common ground, I'd be glad to engage with you again on this matter. I have a feeling that you and I lead very, very different lives at this point in time and so engaging with you further in our current, very distinct contexts will not be fruitful.