Consumer Protection Act VS Video Games.

[adrianh]

And responsibility to take the consequences thereof...

Freedom of speech is not an entirely unfettered right.

Agreed.

[tec0]

Again this is not about government handing out jobs. This is about big companies that wants to dial in from across the world to maintain a local system remotely. Thus no training no option for training on this system exist at all. Thus you pay for licensing and they will maintain it remotely. Sure they will show your people to setup the remote system and connect the wires but the function can be enabled and disabled by someone you can't even see. Thus you have no real control.

Secondly I have a problem with the games because nearly all of them needs to be registered and maintained on the net. There is no alternative why? Because there is no law stating that they need to provide an alternative...

[adrianh]

Again this is not about government handing out jobs. This is about big companies that wants to dial in from across the world to maintain a local system remotely. Thus no training no option for training on this system exist at all. Thus you pay for licensing and they will maintain it remotely. Sure they will show your people to setup the remote system and connect the wires but the function can be enabled and disabled by someone you can't even see. Thus you have no real control.

You don't have to use the product, vote with you wallet.

Secondly I have a problem with the games because nearly all of them needs to be registered and maintained on the net. There is no alternative why? Because there is no law stating that they need to provide an alternative...

Law, what for...again, if you don't like it then don't buy the product.

[tec0]

You don't have to use the product, vote with you wallet.

research the PLC market… This particular way of doing business will be the norm very soon. And is already in use in bigger companies. It is there because there was no law to protect the companies and allow for an alternative.

If there was a law preventing forced outsourcing then I am sure people will keep their jobs and get the training they need.

Like I said in the beginning it is a bit more serious then what people give it credit for.

[irneb]

Actually in some respects there's even deeper problems ... and not just in gaming. One company which makes a program I use 90% of my work-day have this "wonderful" contract:

1.2 Upgrades and Previous Versions.
1.2.1 Effect of Upgrades. If ##### or a Reseller provides Licensee with an Upgrade to other Licensed Materials previously licensed to Licensee, the Licensed Materials previously licensed to Licensee and any other ##### Materials relating thereto will thereafter be deemed to be a “Previous Version.” Except as set forth in Section 1.2.2 (Exception for Subscription Licensees), the license grant and other rights with respect to any Previous Version will terminate one hundred twenty (120) days after Installation of the Upgrade. Within such one hundred twenty (120) day period, except as set forth in Section 1.2.2 (Exception for Subscription Licensees), (a) Licensee must cease all use of any Previous Version and Uninstall all copies of the Previous Version, and (b) upon expiration of such period, such Previous Version will no longer constitute Licensed Materials but rather will be deemed to be Excluded Materials and Licensee will no longer have a license for any such Previous Version. At ######’s request, Licensee agrees to destroy or return to ###### or the Reseller from which they were acquired all copies of the Previous Version. ####### reserves the right to require Licensee to show satisfactory proof that all copies of any Previous Version have been Uninstalled and, if so requested by ######, destroyed or returned to ###### or the Reseller from which they were acquired.
1.2.2 Exception for Subscription Licensees. The termination of rights as to Previous Versions described in Section 1.2.1 (Effect of Upgrades) may not apply to Licensee if and to the extent (a) Licensee has a Subscription and the Subscription Program Terms authorize Licensee to retain such Previous Versions or (b) otherwise authorized in writing by #####.

So once an upgrade / update is issued from the company, that is now the new licensed version. And you've got a grace period of 120 days to uninstall all older versions. The problem with this though is that some of the programs they produce do not have any ability to save a file back to previous versions (so you may not work with anyone owning an older version still). Worse, they issue these versions in near Alpha test quality, so we tend to not want an upgrade until about 2 years after the version was issued (after around the 5th Service Pack / Update to fix it into a Final Beta quality).

And even if you use the subscription "escape" clause, you pay an anual fee to get a normal sub (which doesn't apply here). If you go with the "special" sub - which allows multiple versions, you're better off just buying the stuff. And I'm not talking a few R100 rands - one license is R30 000 (for absolute basic product), going up to R120 000.

Some have "read" into that EULA that actually we're only purchasing the usage rights of the program. Which means that the company still owns the installation on your PC and in effect can tell you exactly when to do what with it. Never mind control! This is more like paying to be a slave.

[tec0]

Thank you for making the point irneb.

Now imagine paying over R25 million+ for a product that is update dependant and completely useless if the company pulls the plug on it. Also Guess who is picking up the bill? We the consumer that is who…

So a serious problem that needs to be addressed very soon or we can face serious consequences. Consequences that can cripple our economy. These companies became that powerful…

Fact is if they pull the plug everything electronic in your home becomes junk. No more banks no more hospitals no more running water no more power. These people that we don’t even know will soon have the ability to turn this country off! And they can do so remotely? Now how much more scary do they need to be before we introduce regulations to prevent them from having this kind of power?

I hope now that we will see the seriousness of the situation and how bad it will get if we don’t step up and start lobbying for those laws to change and new laws to be introduced.

We are living in an illusion, we think we can make choices but we can't… We cannot make a choice because there is no alternative available. This situation exists because very smart people wanted this situation to exist. It guarantees profit indefinitely.

But there is nothing good in it for us.

[sterne.law@gmail.com]

I think the advertising is the main issue:
If I say clearly that you are purchasing half a product and will need to download the rest, thats fine. It is not an unfair term because you can either pay R1000 now and R500 later for download or R1499 now - you decide. Thats fair and thats business

As to updates - if they do not render the game unplayable, in other words you can play but its not up to date, well thats fair, thats business. I don't game so Im not sure, but i would think that you can carry on playing just be an older version. Thats capitalism its like buying the new phone when it comes out or 2 years later. i presume their are online games but the terms and conditions are that you play online on a global platform in an industry that is constantly evolving and that is very competitive. You choose to play.
If you don't like the terms then you don't buy and you don't play. Its nothing different from wanting the R1million imported car but if we can't afford its e buy the R100 000 car. we can't expect laws to make life fair.

[adrianh]

With regard to software support from afar. I think the problem these days is that software has become to complex to train inhouse support staff. Further, we use so many different applications that it has become near impossible to support the whole lot inhouse. With regards to leasing software - you don't get to own your MacDonalds franchise, you don't own the land or the equipment - you esentially operate the infrastructure.

We need to realize that software is nothing special in that the sale and support thereof is just the same as any other product. When my decal printer fails it is sent to Japan, when my laser fails I speak to the people in China. I spent an hour online resolving a CorelDraw macro problem last night with some person living in some far off land - we live in a world where support is an email or Skype call away - I think its great for people to come together across borders.

We should learn to connect with experts across borders (we already do on this site...some just don't realize it - we have America, Chinese, British and many other nationalities that subscribe to this form) I do not care about inhouse support - I care about getting suitable support no matter where in the world it is.

[tec0]

As to updates - if they do not render the game unplayable, in other words you can play but its not up to date, well thats fair, thats business. I don't game so Im not sure, but i would think that you can carry on playing just be an older version.

That would be fair but sadly not it is how the gaming industry works. Here is an example you buy the game it connects to the internet you must create an account and register your game under your account. Now the downloading starts "sometimes it downloads first and then asks you to register".

After the first download you must still remain online to play the game. If you log out for example the game will not allow you some functionalities such as saving. Most new titles don’t give you an offline option.

Every time you log on it will do an update before you can start playing. In short the game cannot run independently at all.

[tec0]

With regard to software support from afar. I think the problem these days is that software has become to complex to train inhouse support staff. Further, we use so many different applications that it has become near impossible to support the whole lot inhouse. With regards to leasing software - you don't get to own your MacDonalds franchise, you don't own the land or the equipment - you esentially operate the infrastructure.

We need to realize that software is nothing special in that the sale and support thereof is just the same as any other product. When my decal printer fails it is sent to Japan, when my laser fails I speak to the people in China. I spent an hour online resolving a CorelDraw macro problem last night with some person living in some far off land - we live in a world where support is an email or Skype call away - I think its great for people to come together across borders.

We should learn to connect with experts across borders (we already do on this site...some just don't realize it - we have America, Chinese, British and many other nationalities that subscribe to this form) I do not care about inhouse support - I care about getting suitable support no matter where in the world it is.

To some degree I do agree with this. But you are one business and if you don’t get support for whatever reason only your business will suffer. However in the PLC industry it becomes a much larger picture. If those products where to lose their online support for whatever reason the country stand to lose it all and every single one of us will suffer the consequences.

It is for this reason where I feel that the Hardware and software must retain some functionality so that we can still operate and maintain stability.

This is not about wanting the bigger car or trying to make life fair. It is about simple commonsense. You don’t want someone to be able to destroy everything we are by simply clicking a mouse. The scary reality is they can… With a simple company decision a whole country can fall.

How is this possible you ask? Well turn your attention to our big cloud makers; there systems are now being upgraded with a new PLC concept. Basically people do get "Basic training" on them but these systems will be remote dependant. And they are license sensitive.

The company has exclusive control over these new systems. Now imagine for a moment our cloud makers get switched off because someone didn’t do their job or it was an executive order. Where does that leave your business and the country?

Now that is what is keeping me awake at night. Our country's infrastructure is remote dependant?

We simply cannot have that… But we are getting it and it is costing us millions and millions more each year.

[adrianh]

Again, it goes to choice. You don't have to buy anything. If you don't like the way that the PLCs are supported then install PLC's that are locally supported. Moeller & Delta have local support. I don't know why you keep on about getting training. I can find my way around most PLCs by learning about them myself. I know Delta, Moeller & Lovato fairly well. There are hundreds of manuals available on the net and one can talk to experts in the field. Information is just a mouse click or phone call away.

Education and training is YOUR responsibility. Nobody taught me anything technical, I don't have a qualification of any significance to my name, yet I know my way around many many different fields.

[Dave A]

I chewed over whether to raise this, because ultimately you're raising the issue and thereby raising awareness and perhaps in so doing affecting the eventual outcome. But I think it's something that should be kept in mind along the way:

We are living in an illusion, we think we can make choices but we can't… We cannot make a choice because there is no alternative available.

There is always an alternative. The only reason you say there is no alternative is because you don't like the alternative.

This situation exists because very smart people wanted this situation to exist. It guarantees profit indefinitely.

Exactly, but only as long as people buy into the deal. Enough people stop buying and the model is no longer viable.

When you adopt the paradigm of "no choice", you create the walls of your own prison.

[adrianh]

Ok, I'll turn the discussion about choice upside down. I think that the difficulty with choice is the awareness of pitfalls. One could argue, to side to some degree with what tec0 is saying by considering the following examples.

Smoking
There was a time when companies actively promoted smoking whilst they knew perfectly well that smoking causes cancer. People could choose to smoke or not without truly knowing the dangers. The companies kept quiet because they knew the impact that disclosing this information would have on profits.

Ford Pinto
It became quite apparent that there was a serious problem with the Ford Pinto. If the car was struck from the rear the petrol tank would explode. Ford downplayed the danger and many people lost their lives.

I think that the general public put far too much faith in the ethics of large companies. We foolishly believe that the wellbeing of the puplic is topmost in their minds. We also foolishly believe that each and every product is vetted and scrutinized so as to assure its safety etc. Now, one could argue that the average man in the street should not need to analyze each and every product. How would a lay person know what questions to ask, let alone ask the questions?

To put it all in a nutshell. I think that we need to be far more careful with the choices we make, we need to weigh up the pros and cons of each choice and weigh up the consequences thereof. When a product or service is misrepresented action should be taken, but we should also take responsibility for perpetuating situations by simply accepting whatever companies say as gospel. We need to realize that we, the puplic, shape our capatalist societies with our wallets. We don't have to buy new cars every 4 years, we don't have to buy Ipad 1,2's & 3's, we don't have to do many many thing, we simply choose to do so because we are sheep following one another.

[tec0]

Firstly the person buying the new PLC tech doesn’t really care about what others or I have to say. They have there "incentives" to do so. Regardless of the fact that other products are available these systems really do stand out. But one may question their basic capability and training people at these inflated costs will be difficult. I was hoping to point out that perhaps it would be a good idea to regulate the basic capability of a product so that at the very least it stays functional. Is that unreasonable?

As for the games there is no alternative other then not buying the game but it will not change the mindset of the industry. I wonder if one can call it an alternative? You will destroy the South African market with a consumer strike but we will simply have no real impact. A law on the other hand needs to be considered by companies and so on because it is a law.

Just remember everything will have a cause and effect. How many more people will be financially cripple before we realise there is something wrong with the gaming industry?

Is it unreasonable to ask government to consider a law that will state that a game/software must have a functioning stand alone ability once registered and a the installation took place?

There is a lot of unreasonable activity in the software market. Updates that will dismiss you're licensing or remove capabilities that you may need in your business. Some software companies state that the software remains their property and the licence that we paid for is merely a permission slip? And we only have permission for 12 months. How did we even get to this stage?

Anyhow if you think it is ridicules for users/gamers/consumer to have some type of law aiding them to protect their purchase then the people have spoken. They don’t need protection then…