220v Downlight DIY Installation

[ians]

How to install and connect a 15 amp socket outlet, technically not allowed to be done by a DIY fella, however try google it and see how much info there avaialble for "all" to see.

If you want to do something, just google it, the internet is full of information, so should i keep quiet and not reply, i dont think so.

What i should do however is maybe get a signature which will have terms and conditions of the info i post on this forum, NOT, Dave will nuke the kak off his website faster than i type, if he feels i am out of line, as he has done in the past

You could always report me to the DOL, what a waste of time that would be, i havent killed anyone , yet .

The sad thing is that unfortunately there are still people who are proud to be electricians, like i was once apon a time, who take the time to read the regs etc,i take my hat off to all of you guys and thank you for your positive feedback. Unfortunately i just dont give a damn anymore. 30 years in this industry and all i see is it falling apart by the day. The days when i was still wiring houses with galvernised threaded conduit, i was proud to tell people i was an electrician, nowadays when people ask what i do, i tell them i am a carpenter and build stuff out of wood.

When you climb in the roof of peoples houses and you cant see the difference between the alarm wires and the electrical installation you know soemething has gone terribly wrong with this industry. When people want to do a diy electrical installation i can understand why, chances are they are likely to do a better installation than some of the so called "electricians" out there.

By the way an NTC3 certifcate, doesnt mean you are a qualified electrician, seems everyone who has N3 thinks they are qualified electrician, or should i say according to the people i have interviewed for electrical jobs.

[Dave A]

How to install and connect a 15 amp socket outlet, technically not allowed to be done by a DIY fella, however try google it and see how much info there avaialble for "all" to see.

If you want to do something, just google it, the internet is full of information, so should i keep quiet and not reply, i dont think so.

I don't think so either, and not just because the "information is already out there."

The issue of industry regulation to achieve standards is one of my favorite chewing points, primarily because it is nowhere near as simple a subject as most people think.

Over the years I've developed a personal belief that much like "the pen is mightier than the sword", education is mightier than regulation when it comes to raising standards. This theory is based on two foundations:

• Most people "do the wrong thing" out of ignorance
• Informed people makes better choices

I happily concede that some people wilfully "do a bad job" when they should know better. That's why education isn't a total solution - industry regulation does have a role to play in achieving standards. However I really believe regulation cannot succeed in achieving quality without first making sure the information on how to achieve those standards is out there and easily accessible.

But perhaps there's a solid reason why this doesn't apply to information about domestic electrical installations?

[wynn]

education is mightier than regulation when it comes to raising standards

Unless the monkeys running the zoo revert to the lowest common denominator being the standard of the education ???

[ians]

It is quite simple, if you drop off an qualified, unskilled person on a site to perform a task which requires higher qualifications, then yes i agree, education is the key, but you first need to enforce the law, ie...nail the contractor who is leaving unqualified staff on site, which will prevent them from doing it and force them to send the staff for the correct training, then look at improving standards.

All staff on site should be required to wear a card type identification, with relavant qualifications cleary displayed. This will prevent people like myself, who work in factory enviroments having to work amongst labourers, who are left on site to connect DBs and machines. It is not my responsibilty to report these contractors, there should be a safety inspector on site at all times, checking that people are wearing safety belts, checking people are doing work according to their qualifications indicated on their ID card. We are all issued with these cards in the elctricial industry, so no, there is not an addtional cost to the customer to provide us with these ID cards.

There are way tooo many people with eleconop 1 grading, because no further training is required to become an eleconop 1, to go any higher requires training in a training centre and then testing. This is just not happening for what ever reason, too busy to send staff, too expensive, or just because you have to pay the people more for the higher grade. It could be that contractors are get away with leaving the lower grade staff on site and can charge higher rates.

I believe that if the DOL and factories engineers where doing their job correctly and clamping down on this type of behavior, we could start seeing more realistic rates being charged by electical contractors. It wil force contractors to use the correctly skilled staff as and where required, and in turn improve the ridiculous rates which elctrical contractor charge per hour. We must be the lowest paid contractors in any industry. Motor vehicle companies charge, R500 + per hour, you can get an electrical company to do work for as little as R 250 per hour.

[Sparks]

I support educating the public at large however, to each his own trade. A quick rundown of regs applicable to one section of an installation is one thing but there are other factors to consider. Having joints in an enclosure with glands at all the entry points does not mean everything is hunky dory. There are other factors to consider too. Load, circuit length, voltage drop, earthing, protection.... There is a lot of sound advice offered on this site, which I am glad to see, but it needs to be stressed that the regulations being enquired about also stipulate that only suitably qualified people work on installations. This is to protect lives. With my experience I am not surprised that some people do not trust "contractors" to adhere to the regs. "You get what you pay for" has two sides to it. You could be paying, as in most cases, for the company "name" which was inherited years ago and no longer delivers the standard of work which "earned" the name in the first place. At least some people make an effort to ensure the safety of their families. Having the DIY certified after doing it is one thing, finding a "credible" certifier is another. I take my hat off to people prepared to stand up for their families and wish them luck finding credible "certifiers". If it costs a bottle of whisky for the COC, you can just as well take it with when your stomach wants to go. This is the New SA we have to get used to it.

An after thought: There used to be an advert on TV for carpets. The company founder stated that there are two types. The one type has his name on it. My work also has my name on it. My COC is for free, it is to certify that my work is as it should be. My time gets paid for. It irritates me when people ask how much I charge for a COC.

[Dave A]

I've been putting a bit of thought into what might work as a DIY solution. The best answer I can think of is that the homeowner should involve the wireman right from the beginning. The home owner should run through what he or she plans to do and the wireman is involved in the planning, monitoring and the making off of the final connections.

I'm sure not too many people will be thrilled at the idea, but it's a heck of a lot better than what's happening at the moment where homeowners go doing their own thing without any guidance or control whatsoever.

[Leecatt]

I've been putting a bit of thought into what might work as a DIY solution. The best answer I can think of is that the homeowner should involve the wireman right from the beginning. The home owner should run through what he or she plans to do and the wireman is involved in the planning, monitoring and the making off of the final connections.

I'm sure not too many people will be thrilled at the idea, but it's a heck of a lot better than what's happening at the moment where homeowners go doing their own thing without any guidance or control whatsoever.

Dave that sound a little bit like "we all get a chance to land the plane under the pilots indirect guidance". Doesn't work for me.
It's about time that Joe Public learned that The Law is there to be respected and not and not interpreted to suit "his" requirements.
I would like to place a piece here from a friend of mine in Cape Town, which deals with a slighter broader version of what we are discussing here.
He compiled this article which is presently being published in a Cape Town Paper, I received it this morning.

It is entitled your geyser is leaking so you call a plumber

Your geyser is leaking so you call a plumber. The contractor arrives and, using his step-ladder, he climbs into the ceiling of your house to look for a fault. While he is standing on the ladder he touches your geyser and gets a shock. His ladder slips and he falls and is seriously injured, or even dies. Now you have a problem. What is your responsibility and where does it start?

The incident must be reported to the Chief Inspector of the Department of Manpower and, in the event of a death, to the Police. The Chief Inspector will investigate the incident and, depending on his conclusion, you may find yourself in Court facing a prison sentence or fine of R100 000. With South African law you are responsible the moment you called the contractor. According to the Occupational Health and Safety Act No 85 of 1993 (“the OSH Act”), every employer shall provide and maintain, as far as is reasonably practical, a working environment that is safe and without risk to the health of his employees.

You may argue that:
1. your home is not a working environment;
2. the contractor does not work for you but a plumbing company;
3. his step-ladder was unsafe to use and that he did not use it correctly; and
4. Your geyser had an electrical fault that you were unaware of.

You are unfortunately guilty of all of the above.
The moment that any work is performed on your premises it has become a work environment. It does not matter what work is performed – domestic, gardening, even changing the oil of your car. The OSH Act defines “work” as an employee or as a self-employed person and, for such purpose, an employee is defined to be at work during the time that he is in the course of his employment, and a self-employed person is deemed to be at work during such time as he devotes to work as a self-employed person. In simple terms, it means anybody who performs work.

The OSH Act defines a “workplace” as any premises or place where a person performs work in the course of his employment. The contractor may be employed by a plumbing company but he will be performing work for you therefore, indirectly, he is your employee. His direct employer has duties to see that he is competent, trained and able to perform his duties in a safe manner and to ensure that he has the correct personal protective equipment and that his tools are in a good, safe working condition. You still have the responsibility to ensure that he has received all of that from his employer. You have the right to inspect all his tools and protective equipment before he starts working and you have the responsibility to make sure he uses his equipment correctly and in a safe manner. He should be able to provide you with a step-ladder safety check or prove to you that it is in a good, safe working condition.

Lastly, you, as the user, are responsible for the electrical installation defined in the OSH Act as “any machinery, in or on any premises used for the transmission of electricity from point of contact to a point of consumption anywhere on the premises, including any article forming part of such an electrical installation, irrespective of whether or not it is part of the electrical circuit.” Unfortunately, the majority of South African homeowners or Lessors are under the impression that they need an electrical Certificate of Compliance only when they sell their property. This is true, but all users or Lessors must have a valid Certificate of Compliance for that installation and it must be accompanied by a Test Report in the format approved by the Chief Inspector. The Chief Inspector may, at any time, ask you to provide a valid Certificate of Compliance and not just at the time of an incident. The Certificate of Compliance must be obtained from an accredited person who has been registered by the Chief Inspector of the Department of Manpower in terms of the Regulations.

The law requires that a visual inspection covering no less than 12 Aspects of the installation must be carried out as well as a series of 14 electrical tests. Not only does the Certificate of Compliance cover you in the event of an incident, your insurance company may ask you to produce one if your property suffers damage due to an electrical fault, or if you face a public liability law suit which, by the way, the plumber may bring against you.

In South Africa we do not have a culture of suing each other for everything, but as the law gets stricter, we may soon see an increase in the number of law suits. Do not become one of the first to be sued. Make sure your premises are in a good, safe condition and that you have all the necessary Certificates.

[Justloadit]

So when has a home owner become proficient in inspecting and insuring that the equipment a contractor is going to use is safe and in working order.
Does this not bring to question then that the home owner therefor is not qualified, and therefor can not call a contractor to fix a problem in the home.
So who is qualified to do this?

An example, I am away over seas, and my 16 year old daughter calls the plumber to fix the leak, a situation as in the previous post occurs.
She is then guilty of having called the plumber to correct the problem -

mmmmmmm - Sounds like a catch 22 situation to me.

[Yuri]

So when has a home owner become proficient in inspecting and insuring that the equipment a contractor is going to use is safe and in working order.
Does this not bring to question then that the home owner therefor is not qualified, and therefor can not call a contractor to fix a problem in the home.
So who is qualified to do this?

An example, I am away over seas, and my 16 year old daughter calls the plumber to fix the leak, a situation as in the previous post occurs.
She is then guilty of having called the plumber to correct the problem -

mmmmmmm - Sounds like a catch 22 situation to me.

The person renting the place or the owner staying in the house is responsible for the installation

[ians]

I look forward to that day, i wonder if it will happen in my life time?

[Dave A]

The OSH Act defines a “workplace” as any premises or place where a person performs work in the course of his employment. The contractor may be employed by a plumbing company but he will be performing work for you therefore, indirectly, he is your employee.

Oh dear - do- it-yourself lawyering seems to present much the same dangers as DIY electricianing and probably shouldn't be done without some level of oversight by professionals.

Lee, it would seem your friend has stretched the employer/employee relationship beyond the breaking point of even the OSH Act (which requires supervision and control to deem an employer as an "employer" - see S2). No, in your quoted scenario, I humbly suggest the private homeowner has employed the services of a contractor, and it's the contractor that is the employer that has to pay attention to OSH Act related worker safety. The worst thing the homeowner could do is start supervising the contractor's employees

Even if we look at COIDA, S89 mandator responsibility only starts kicking in when the contractor's client acts "in the course of or for the purposes of his business" - the private homeowner/occupier is off the hook.

The issue of user/lessor responsibility for the electrical COC is fair comment, though.

[Leecatt]

Oh dear - do- it-yourself lawyering seems to present much the same dangers as DIY electricianing and probably shouldn't be done without some level of oversight by professionals.

Lee, it would seem your friend has stretched the employer/employee relationship beyond the breaking point of even the OSH Act (which requires supervision and control to deem an employer as an "employer" - see S2). No, in your quoted scenario, I humbly suggest the private homeowner has employed the services of a contractor, and it's the contractor that is the employer that has to pay attention to OSH Act related worker safety. The worst thing the homeowner could do is start supervising the contractor's employees

Even if we look at COIDA, S89 mandator responsibility only starts kicking in when the contractor's client acts "in the course of or for the purposes of his business" - the private homeowner/occupier is off the hook.

The issue of user/lessor responsibility for the electrical COC is fair comment, though.

Thank you Dave. Actually I was re reading the transcript last night again and there are a few other issues that I have a problem with as well.
I may have been a tad hasty in posting it but on the other hand it may make for an interesting discussion further down the line.
Would it make a difference if there were only the plumber, or electrician, working alone as I think that is what he is referring to?

[Dave A]

Would it make a difference if there were only the plumber, or electrician, working alone as I think that is what he is referring to?

The position of the sole proprietor contractor working on his/her own is an interesting one. I don't see it making a difference when it comes to OSH Act issues (i.r.o. private homeowner liability), but the fact that this particular individual doesn't have access to COIDA cover for him/herself does create an unfortunate hole in having a third party liable for paying the medical bills etc.

I've always understood that this person is pretty much on their own, have to look after themselves and should probably look for insurance cover...
But there's a few threads on TFSA already that seem to indicate that when it comes to insurance, claim time doesn't always work out as expected.

Maybe a good argument against contractors trading as a sole proprietor...?

I may have been a tad hasty in posting it but on the other hand it may make for an interesting discussion further down the line.

Probably as well you did post it. Sometimes it's the best way to clear up issues and improve everyone's understanding.
With any luck the excercise might save your friend from future blushes too.

[Sparks]

I guess it all boils down to point of view & who has the highest paid lawyer
I just did some work at a large cable manufacturing plant. I had to submit all the required safety reports of my equipment(to relieve them of liabillity should the above scenario have taken place?). The same happened at a large motor dealership. I am about to do the same at another branch of the same dealership. Before I may commence work I must submit inspection reports for all tools which could cause injury. I was even asked about first aid qualification. During the induction I was told to submit all these documents for inspection prior to entering the work area.
I wonder now homeowners paint their wooden ladders for protection against bettles & the weather. If a painted ladder were to break, would the insurance claim "no liabillity" because the wood should have been varnished in order to see any defects that may have developed over time?

[ians]

If you really want to get into it, you need to start taking about things like, KBC Health and safety training for each staff member, medical clearance , induction, hot permits, machine training, etc, etc, it just goes on and on. So were do we draw the line with the one man operation, how far does he actually have to go to be cleared to work on any property. Stuff like putting up barriers when an electrician is working on an installation or carrying out tests on a domestic installation should all be taken into consideration, so how far do you want to go, thats the big question, you might know the electrical standards off the top of your head, but how many people take other things like barriers into consideration, how many electricians even own a lock out device, never mind a barrier to keep people out of the work or test zone? Simple things like putting putting a protective barrier between your equipment and the customers antique table, honestly how many of you take these precautions? I just laugh when i read these threads and shake my head, the reality is i work hands on on a daily basis, i dont sit in an office and send staff out to work, so i know what is going on out there and the type of workmanship i see on a daily basis, it scary.

It only makes sense doing all this stuff if "everyone" is forced to do it, and there are people going around enforcing the law, ie some form of prosecution for offenders, otherwise it is just another waste of tax payers money creating all the rules and regulations, i suppose it does create employment. Ever now and again, like maybe every 5 - 10 years there are people who arrive on site with clipboards, looking all smart, tick off a few things,make a noise and off they go into the sunset.