Too many cables in conduit

[adrianh]

I agree with you but if someone is drowning, I will try help even though I cannot swim, despite growing up on the coast.

I will only do so if I can negate the risk to my own life. There is no sense in throwing yourself in the water if you don't know if you will be able to get back out. I am not averse to helping people, I will stick my neck right out if the situations demands it, but one has to calculate the risk. Do you swerve when one person runs across the road and then crash into another car killing 5 occupants... these are tough split second decisions that we are faced with sometimes, my view is to take the lessor of the evils...

"Common sense" is a very dangerous idea because it is mostly dependent on past experience, thinking laterally and being able to projecting an outcome, as they say, "you don't know what you don't know". Inexperienced drivers think that it is common sense to slam on the brakes if something happens (especially those who drive with ABS) but once you've aqauplaned an out of control car with its brakes locked and wheels pointing west, you learn that your "common sense" needs to be adjusted for wet weather driving (and ABS does fail too)

I don't know, I don't have the answers, $h1t I don't even know which questions to ask, I just think that we have to be careful about knowing our own limitations and reasoning abilities. Like I said before, rules are there to protect us from our own individual versions of "common sense" Too many car crashes and air crashes occur due to the notion of "common sense" but I must confess, there are people that have such an acute "common sense" due to experience that my little mind just boggles. Remember the pilot who ditched the Airbus A320 in the Hudson river after a bird strike, now that is what I call "BALLS powered by common sense derived from applying a calculated risk to a terrible situation by using years of experience" No textbook will teach you to do that. That guy proves that people are able to apply "common sense" extremely well provided that they have the knowledge, experience and balls to back it up. Hats off to that guy

[Sparks]

[AndyD]

It's a pity some posts in this thread were withdrawn by the poster concerned. It would have been interesting to hear an intelligent solution suggested to the problem posed.

I think there will be many relatively straight forward solutions, there's usually more than one way to skin a cat. The problem is they'll all cost money and they'll all take time. At this stage in the game, if there's only a low profit margin on the job and there's a dispute brewing with the customer it's a tricky decision whether to throw good money after bad.

do a quote, stick to the quote and handle all additions as seperate issues.

That's exactly the way to do it. It's always the 'oh, while you're here' kinda jobs that cause the problems and the OP was a prime example of that. We always keep the extras separate from the main job and we'll only do extras if there's a separate signed order/variation order. Also if they want to contest the cost of the extras when they get the separate invoices it doesn't affect getting paid for the main job.

I think experience is the thing that prevents you ending up in these kinds of situations in the first place. Skill, knowledge and a good measure of diplomacy is what will help resolve them when they do occur. From the OP I suspect there's more than just the regs issue and too many cables in a conduit going on here. I think there's other angles at play where either this is just a symptom of a deeper problem between customer and contractor or maybe the customer is just one of those skelms who looks to make disputes in the hope of avoiding having to pay.

[Sparks]

It is for that reason that I use specified quotes with a clause stating that "no changes to the quote will be considered unless agreed to and signed for by both parties".

[skatingsparks]

Look, all I was saying is that I don't think that there will be any detrimental effect of putting the cables in 50cm, length of conduit, especially when the cables are not even loaded to a third of there capacity. Loaded cables give of heat the space allows for dissipation of heat which is the purpose of having 45% space. The circuit breakers I have used make it impossible to get he cables even closely to fully loaded or to teh point where that may have heat to dissipate.

I think that the electrician who my customer has now called in will pull those cables out and put them in a big junction box above the ceiling and double up the circuits which I think will be have a more detrimental effect than leaving the cables in the conduit now.

Customers will not let you smash there freshly painted wall be re-chased.

No its not about making a quick buck, its nothing to do with "that'll do". I can honestly say the job is work of art, if I was wiring my mothers own house this is the standard I would have done it to. Cables clipped, spaced equally, no twists in the cable, all nicely dressed in, all the down lights lined up perfect.


Electrician are up against other electricians who cut corners. Example, I quote on a shop and I spread the lighting load, for an example, over 4 circuits. Its good practice even if the load is low enough to be put on one circuit. The other electrician will put all the load on one circuit and make savings on cable and the protective devices. In the unlikely event there is a fault on the circuit, doing my way at least the other 3 circuits stay on but the guy who cuts corner, even though it may done to the book, the whole shop will be in darkness. The client doesn't generally know or worry about this until there is problem.

Of course I'm not going to put a stove on 2.5mm cable and no I didn't leave lighting cables in metal conduits without running a separate earth cable.

Oh, and the non paying client would not let the an inspector from the ECA, which I had arranged, to come in and inspect the work I had done.
She is just a simply a thief.

[Sparks]

I think that the electrician who my customer has now called in will pull those cables out and put them in a big junction box above the ceiling and double up the circuits which I think will be have a more detrimental effect than leaving the cables in the conduit now.

I suggested this because you said the circuits were not loaded. How will this be detrimental with minimal loads?

[skatingsparks]

So it bothered me a while that the client didn't pay...

Also after being here for pretty much 10 years I have one conclusion to Adrianh's responce's - He is a Dick Head.

My installations are a work of art compared to most of the shit I see and done to the letter of SANS 10142

I asked a reasonable question and explained my reasoning behind it. If the cables were singles there would not be a problem.

I have been back in the house quite recently and had the pleasure of seeing not a thing had been changed and the client had been charged R22000 for.... well doing nothing other than issuing the COC on my work. I may have been knocked for R12000 but she was completely screwed by the other electrician for R22000 for redoing.... Nothing.

[ians]

All the cables are flat twin and earth? (was mentioned in the first post)

The bottom line, there is no way on this earth that you could have too many cables in the conduit if you are pulling twin+E down into the conduit.

You can only chuckle at some of the comments.

Honestly i would rather have an experienced tradesman working in my house than a person who can read rules and regs and copy and paste data from the world wide web.

Life is all dandy on paper, some of these design engineers/rule makers should try work in the field before putting in writting.

[ians]

So it bothered me a while that the client didn't pay...

Also after being here for pretty much 10 years I have one conclusion to Adrianh's responce's - He is a Dick Head.

My installations are a work of art compared to most of the shit I see and done to the letter of SANS 10142

I asked a reasonable question and explained my reasoning behind it. If the cables were singles there would not be a problem.

I have been back in the house quite recently and had the pleasure of seeing not a thing had been changed and the client had been charged R22000 for.... well doing nothing other than issuing the COC on my work. I may have been knocked for R12000 but she was completely screwed by the other electrician for R22000 for redoing.... Nothing.

By the way...i do recall back in the day when i use to read the sans book...you could fit i believe it was 7or 9 wires in a 20 mm conduit. I recall having to use sunlight dishwashing liquid to try squeeze all the wires from point A to B into the conduit.

Dont let comments on social media get to you. Everyone is master in the every industry on social media.

[Ishmaelmo]

By the way...i do recall back in the day when i use to read the sans book...you could fit i believe it was 7or 9 wires in a 20 mm conduit. I recall having to use sunlight dishwashing liquid to try squeeze all the wires from point A to B into the conduit.

Dont let comments on social media get to you. Everyone is master in the every industry on social media.

I once saw an electrician stripping off the white insulation of the Twin-E cable to pull them through counduit. Is that a good practice?

[ians]

I once saw an electrician stripping off the white insulation of the Twin-E cable to pull them through counduit. Is that a good practice?

like all comments on social media...not know the exact circumstances...it is difficult to judge.

what i can tell you from my own experience, i do it all the time...especially when trying to get a wire from the roof space into the DB via an existing conduit (because the chop who installed the DB didnt install spare pipes ) I fit a box in the roof space, pulled the wires up form the DB into the roof space...then pull all the wires together back down to the DB. There is nothing wrong provided it is done using a junction box.

What i do see a lot, people pull the pipe apart and push the twin+e down the pipe with the house wire and leave exposed wiring at the entry point what makes it even a bigger problem, when the steel pipe is used as the earth conductor (old houses)

another thing i see a lot is people connecting wires in the old metal 3 way Tee...normally the connectors dont fit into the Tee so the joint is left exposed.

It the wild south out there...it is easy to put rules and regs on paper...getting people to actually do it...somebody should send a memo out to their staff.

[skatingsparks]

Honestly i would rather have an experienced tradesman working in my house than a person who can read rules and regs and copy and paste data from the world wide web.

.

An experienced tradesman knows the reason for space factors in conduit in for the dissipation of heat in the cables (grouping) when loaded. The cables were not even close to loaded. Thats why I asked the question originally, seeing as I had seen plenty of conduits full to bursting capacity in my first few weeks here.

It used to be that in the UK you didn't need to apply grouping factor to cable calcs if they were carrying, I think 30%, of there load. Not sure if that's still the case. I get an onslaught from Adrianh's for asking something like that. Guessing he's not on the tools to see what most of us see everyday. He'd kak his pants.

One thing I know after 10 years of being here - you report anything dangerous, rough, dodgy, crap - Ain't no one done shit about any of it. No one gives a shit.
It's only some peoples pride in work that keeps standards up and there sure as shit ain't a lot of people who still take pride in their work.

I can still enjoy the fact the client paid of R22000 for... nothing. I see her occasionally. She is a piece of shit but since that day I avoid domestics. Waste of time.

[ians]

An experienced tradesman knows the reason for space factors in conduit in for the dissipation of heat in the cables (grouping) when loaded. The cables were not even close to loaded. Thats why I asked the question originally, seeing as I had seen plenty of conduits full to bursting capacity in my first few weeks here.

It used to be that in the UK you didn't need to apply grouping factor to cable calcs if they were carrying, I think 30%, of there load. Not sure if that's still the case. I get an onslaught from Adrianh's for asking something like that. Guessing he's not on the tools to see what most of us see everyday. He'd kak his pants.

One thing I know after 10 years of being here - you report anything dangerous, rough, dodgy, crap - Ain't no one done shit about any of it. No one gives a shit.
It's only some peoples pride in work that keeps standards up and there sure as shit ain't a lot of people who still take pride in their work.

I can still enjoy the fact the client paid of R22000 for... nothing. I see her occasionally. She is a piece of shit but since that day I avoid domestics. Waste of time.

just a note...i am not here to point fingers at anyone...i think it is great that people share their thoughts...suitably qualified...experience or not...right or wrong...i have learnt on social media not to pick out or point fingers at any individual...it is not my place to judge anyone until i have walked in their shoes...merely give my point of view (which might be wrong at times)

The electrical industry in this country is doomed unless we (the old school lads) step down and start sharing our knowledge and experience with the new up and coming lads...it is not a competition or a race to the end...it a journey we all need to share and grow....until we get that right...there is not much hope...i hear it everyday in the wholesalers....people complaining about other contractors bad workmanship...we should get together and discuss ways to heal the industry instead.

The ECA is another place for whining contractors...then you go out and see the whiners workmanship and just shake your head.

The rates discussion is another whole thread on its own...you pay peanuts you get sheep doing the work.

[GCE]

Hi

I agree that we need to share knowledge and thereby try and uplift the quality of workmanship.
My feeling is that you can only change things from within and not from the outside.

I chose to get involved within the ECA and try and see if I can make things work the way I would like to see them work.
I chose to try and get involved with the training and advice side and hopefully get to see contractors follow the advice given.
If can help one contractor to stand stronger on his own feet then I feel that I have won a little Battle , and hopefully eventually win the War

The more ECA members that try win little battles the more chance we have of winning the war

You talk of a place for contractors to get together and discuss ways to heal the industry - The place is there , ECA , we just need more involvement from the experienced contractors to share their knowledge.

[Sparks]

With SETA dishing out accreditation to incompetents at the rate they do, good luck with your mission.