Connecting gas stoves

[ians]

Another interesting issue I have experienced in the last couple of weeks, connecting gas stoves and induction plates.

What's the big deal, just connect to the under counter oven or just join the wires behind the stove, nobody will see it, but can you that's the question.

If you install a gas hob and under counter oven is it safe to cut off the plug top and connect the cabtyre directly to the terminals where the 4mm or 6 mm stove wires are connected and is a certified gas installer allowed to connect the wire once he cuts off the plug or connect the cabtyre directly to the 4/6mm wire be it in a junction box or not?

I was put in a situation where we removed the hob and replaced it with 2 x induction plates, but there were no plug sockets to connect the plates, so I mounted a double socket outlet, connect the hob cable (4mm twin + e) into the socket outlet and fitted a 20 amp circuit breaker into the 4x4 extension box, cut a small slot so that just the breaker switch protrudes from the box. Trying to get a feed from another socket outlet to the hob location would have involved chasing walls in the dinning room and patching with the risk of damaging tiles in the R120 000 kitchen, which I wasn't prepared to take.

[RTsparky]

Hi ians

I have experienced a similar issue in the past and I ended up buying SANS 10087 (gas installation regulations) I have no idea why it is not part of SANS 10142
Basically it states that no electrical connection shall be made directly under the hob, including a socket outlet. The hob connection shall be made off into an isolator mounted at least 200mm away from the hob above the counter, or in an adjoining cupboard not directly below the hob.

The plug with a separate 20A breaker isn't a bad idea provided the stove was connected through earth leakage, otherwise a dedicated plug could be used, provided it was in an adjoining cupboard.
You could connect the cabtyre directly to the stove supply provided that the size of conductor in the cabtyre was at least equal to the ka rating of the mcb feeding the stove even if the amp rating exceeded what the cabtyre could handle.
I believe that a stove and hob setup where the hob is basically a separate appliance, then two separate isolators should be installed. Often not very easy with modern kitchen designs, especially ovens in kitchen islands.

This is my first post btw.
Regards
Ryan Taylor, electrician, CT

[AndyD]

Hi ians

I have experienced a similar issue in the past and I ended up buying SANS 10087 (gas installation regulations) I have no idea why it is not part of SANS 10142

I can kinda understand why it's not part of the electrical standards. Ian, if you'd like a copy of 10087 then Christmas has come early.

If you follow the parent directories links you'll find standards and codes for various countries in their respective ibr/ directories if you're interested.

[AndyD]

Lol, the more I trawl through that site the more I couldn't help laughing. I just learned that Swaziland has its own national standards authority called the SZNS but from what I can see their standards bear more than a passing resembelence to the SANS equivalents. Just for a laugh here's the Swazi standard for fixed electric water heaters.....see, every day's a school day, I just learned something else.... they must have electricity in Swaziland.

[ians]

Lucky the plug I installed wasn't under a hob, we removed the hob, had a stainless steel frame made to fit the 2 induction plates which come standard with 15 amp moulded plug (seen more fires and burnt wires from these plugs than any other) and the isolator is still connected on the wall so you can switch off the plug socket with the isolator so you don't have to go into the cupboard.

By the way this is Africa, anything goes, sans regs are just for those who are not up to speed with red robots, driving in the orange line, etc, so I am sure my home made circuit breaker box thingy ma bob will work fine , or like the response I got from the technical advisor at the ECA "what's all the fuss about is just a 6mm wire connected to a 16mm wire in a box which is not weatherproof being cast in a concrete deck with a 60 amp breaker protecting the cable"

[Goobie]

Could somebody please explain to a noob like me the connection of an electric oven when it states on the back that it needs to be earthed but not be fed through the earth leakage breaker.

So if there is a leakage in the oven, the earth leakage will trip but not shut off the oven? So the earthing offers no protection then correct?

Thank you

[ians]

In simple terms, in an electric installations you get an earth then everything else, what a lot of people including electricians don't always understand is unless you earthing is correctly selected and installed, you could end up with a dangerous installation. A very simple and common one I can refer to is people complain about getting shocked when they touch the washing machine or dishwasher, it could simply be that the earth is not connected, which could be very dangerous if you are standing bare foot touching the appliance.

This is a trick question, your stove doesn't have to be connected to an earth leakage unit and as you enquired on another thread nor do light circuits under certain conditions. Generally you only have to connect plugs via an earth leakage unit. Making statements like I just have could get me into trouble, because it is not as simple as it sounds, there is a SANS book which has all the details which an electrician uses as guidelines to make the right choice.

I have tried to answer your question without going confusing you or going into too much detail, Andy is a lot better at responding to questions.

[Sparks]

I reckon that explanation is good enough Ian, the earthing must be done thoroughly and correctly and ELCB protection is not required, but as you pointed out about the lighting circuits it is not as simple as it sounds. I will mention this here as this is where this thread started. A socket outlet is only allowed on a cooker circuit provided it is enclosed in the same enclosure as the cooker isolator and has it's own separate protection. Because of the socket outlet this circuit must have ELCB protection. (also mentioned in a nutshell)

[ACEsterhuizen]

Sorry to dig up old cows, but I was confronted by a "gas inspector ??" (yes i know) and asked how could i issue a coc with the isolator "near" the (newly installed) gas / solid plate /element combo stove in a kitchen. Apparently the new gas regs prohibits any isolators "near" a gas stove?

All i have is my sans 10142 regs and according to the Regs a lpg gas stove and the area which it is located in is not a hazardous area?:

7.14.3 The classification of the location and the selection of equipment
permitted (such as flameproof, explosion proof and intrinsically safe
equipment) shall be in accordance with SANS 10108. The installation of
electrical equipment in explosive atmospheres and in the petroleum industry
shall be in accordance with SANS 10086-1 and SANS 10089-2 respectively.

NOTE Examples of hazardous locations are

a) petrol pumps,
b) spray painting booths,
c) areas for the storage, mixing and use of flammable fuels, paints or solvents,
d) grain silos and flour mills,
e) coal storage facilities,
f) wine cellars,
g) areas for the storage and filling of LPG cylinders,
h) battery charging locations, and
I) sewage plant.


but then again Regs 5.1.4 states clearly that:

5.1.4 Positioning of equipment

Electrical equipment which, under normal conditions will be

a) exposed to flammable or explosive gas, vapour, dust or liquid, or to
external influences such as direct sunlight, corrosive vapour or oil, or

b) in a hazardous location,

shall be so selected or enclosed that it is protected against harmful
effects or it shall comply with the requirements of an applicable standard
(or both).

but then i have to comply with the following as well:

6.16.3.1.2 A switch-disconnector for a cooking appliance(s) shall

a) be in the same room as the appliance(s),
b) be at a height above floor level of not less than 0,5 m and not more than
2,2 m,
c) preferably not be above the cooking appliance(s), (not necessarily)
d) be within 3 m of the appliance(s), but within 0,5 m of the appliance(s)
if the switch-disconnector's purpose is not clearly indicated, and
e) not be fixed to the appliance.

So what do i do with the stove isolator?

[ians]

I am in a bit of a spot because the gas stove requires a socket outlet and the cable supplied with the plug top already connected is only 1.5 m long, so you literally have to either install a plug next to the gas stove at a lower level for it to reach or mount the plug directly above or just to the side of the stove. This could get interesting cant wait to see what the gas inspector has to say about it.

[bergie]

what about an electric oven with a gas hob. if you cant have connections etc below the gas hob then the oven shouldnt be allowed to be below it.

[ians]

After this little fiasco i have learnt something.

IF you buy a gas stove and you plan on having the 9 kg bottle inside the kitchen in the cupboard as in my case make sure you get the company where you purchase the stove from to fit the piece of hose and regulator and make sure they give you a certificate of compliance for fitting that piece of pipe and regulator. IF you dont you are gona be in the same spot as i am at the moment. My gas stove has a short piece of pipe with a regulator exactly the same as my 2 plate stove, but because i connected the pipe to the gas stove i have to get a coc for that one connection i made at a fee. The part that has pissed me off is not the coc, it is the fact that they will not repair my gas stove because i dont have a coc for that 1 connection even though the stove is 2 weeks old. The technician arrived here last night checked the stove, indicated that the ignitor is faulty but they cannot work on the stove until i produce a coc.

[bergie]

i thought the law is that the gas bottle must be outside,or is it above 9 kilos?

[ians]

That is my understanding, anything over 9 kg must be outside, piped with a shutoff valve on the inside and one on the outside installed and certified by a gas installer.

9 kg and below can be fitted in the cupboard or next to the appliance and connected directly to the gas bottle using a gas hose with a regulator, but who knows the rules just keep changing.

Unfortunately as indicated by the supplier (clearly stated in the manual supplied with the stove) unless i can produce a COC and an invoice from a certified installer to say the installation was carried out according to regulations, i have no claim for any faulty parts or defective workmanship

lesson learnt: next time i buy any gas appliances and i am going to use a 9 kg in the cupboard, make sure that it has a short pipe with the regulators already installed with a certificate of compliance for that short piece of pipe.

I am now told that because of this fiasco i have also lost my 5 guarantee, so i sit with a 2 week old f&%* stove which i must repair at my cost and have no claim against in the future.

[AndyD]

As far as I know any gas appliance that's not self contained requires a gas certificate if it's static inside a premises.