[Question] When is an electrical certificate required

[Leecatt]

I thought this was an interesting question which was sent to me via email:

Good day
Are you able to advise if an additional ECOC is required if a new stove and earth leakage unit is installed at my home. A request for some validation/guarantee of safe installation has resulted in me receiving a letter, on company letter head, stating that the work complies with regulations. That's it, no mention of which regulations or anything.

Thank you

What would your answer be to this question?

[ians]

You think that's is bad wait till I post the pics and COC issued by a sub contractor to Ethekwini municipality for 100s of geyser timers being installed for free in flats in Montclair south of Durban, I just stumbled onto them this morning while visiting, the installation is so bad that it sticks out like a sore and then to top it all there is a COC to confirm it is installed according to the regs, you wanna see this.

[Dave A]

What would your answer be to this question?

Failure to issue a COC for an addition to the electrical installation is in itself a contravention of the regulations.

[ians]

You need more details, is the earth leakage new as in no earth leakage and a new one was fitted or the old unit was replaced with a new unit and the " stove " doesn't require a COC , a new installation which included the stove isolator would however require a COC.

Just like my situation, do you really need a COC to "install" a geyser timer ? the answer is yes, do people actually issue a COC, highly unlikely.

[AndyD]

I do almost no domestic work so I'm not always up there with the finer points of the regs but I vaguely remember this was discussed some time ago on another thread. I think if the timer is installed in the DB it would require a CoC, if the timer has it's own enclosure and is mounted on the actual geyser it's something of a gray area because it can be classed as being part of the appliance and not part of the electrical installation so a CoC shouldn't be necessary.

[Leecatt]

You need more details, is the earth leakage new as in no earth leakage and a new one was fitted or the old unit was replaced with a new unit and the " stove " doesn't require a COC , a new installation which included the stove isolator would however require a COC.

Just like my situation, do you really need a COC to "install" a geyser timer ? the answer is yes, do people actually issue a COC, highly unlikely.

I would have thought that if the earth leakage was replacing an old one it would still require a COC to be issued, as it would have to be tested and the readings recorded onto a valid COC.
A new COC is required when a circuit is altered and in my opinion replacing an earth leakage is altering the circuit.
On the certificate section 5.2 MATERIAL SPECIFICATION/PROCUREMENT would need to be filled in as well as many questions from section 4.

[ians]

I don't agree with you, if you replace the earth leakage for whatever reason, so long as you test the earth leakage to verify it trips within the 30 mA requirement, I don't see how you are making any changes to the installation. For example if you replace a DSO, you still have to test that the plug is functioning correctly, which in my case would be plugging my plug tester in and check that all three lights are on and then I normally trip the earth leakage unit just to verify the plug is on earth leakage (especially if it is not a regular customer)

I do believe the COC requires some serious input from actual electrician who work in the industry and understand what is required in terms documenting info.

I also believe the COC should be an electronic document, so that specific info can be captured for small jobs and extended for bigger projects.

By the way Chris Greager from the ECA has retired, that is a huge loss to the electrical industry, I can only see things sliding further down hill from here just at a faster pace.

[Dave A]

I can only see things sliding further down hill from here just at a faster pace.

Don't underestimate new brooms

I agree with you - Chris Greager did one heck of a good job and he's going to be sorely missed. But he also had a few strongly held notions that I suspect might not be missed in the long run. His view on the replacement of components i.r.o. affecting COC's might prove to be one of them...

[ians]

I was summoned from my office last night which resulted in a discussion between my wife and I, one of the key points of the discussion is my negative outlook on life at the moment and in recent months. There are so many things to be grateful for but lately I always manage to find the negative in everything, a good example is the ECA and Chris Greager's retirement. The iphone 5 is another, Telkom, etc etc the list just goes on and on.

The solutions, wake up and smell the roses and try appreciate all the things I am gifted with, I was going to sign out and leave this forum again and until I could sort out my miserable self, but instead I have decided against it, instead I ask the regulars to help me, tell me to pi$$ off when I have negative things to say.

You right Dave new brooms always sweep clean and with a little guidance from us as old timers in the industry, I should join the ECA and assist with my knowledge and experience.

[Leecatt]

I was summoned from my office last night which resulted in a discussion between my wife and I, one of the key points of the discussion is my negative outlook on life at the moment and in recent months. There are so many things to be grateful for but lately I always manage to find the negative in everything, a good example is the ECA and Chris Greager's retirement. The iphone 5 is another, Telkom, etc etc the list just goes on and on.

The solutions, wake up and smell the roses and try appreciate all the things I am gifted with, I was going to sign out and leave this forum again and until I could sort out my miserable self, but instead I have decided against it, instead I ask the regulars to help me, tell me to pi$$ off when I have negative things to say.

You right Dave new brooms always sweep clean and with a little guidance from us as old timers in the industry, I should join the ECA and assist with my knowledge and experience.

Piss off

[Leecatt]

I also believe the COC should be an electronic document, so that specific info can be captured for small jobs and extended for bigger projects.

I like this idea

[Dave A]

instead I ask the regulars to help me, tell me to pi$$ off when I have negative things to say.

Nah - we need someone to balance out the "Rah-rah The world's just peachy" crowd.

Besides which, sometimes you're right

[Sparks]

The regs state that all new and additions/alterations to existing installations be certified. Replaced faulty equipment(ELCB) or appliance(stove) are not required to be certified. If a free-standing stove is being replaced by an under-counter oven and hob and the installation is extended then the "new" portion of the installation needs to be certified as an addition/alteration.
Installing a timer would not in my opinion qualify for a COC as the installation is not being changed other than an additional switch being installed in line.

[Leecatt]

The regs state that all new and additions/alterations to existing installations be certified. Replaced faulty equipment(ELCB) or appliance(stove) are not required to be certified. .

You are correct about the stove as it is an appliance and the certificate specifically states that appliances are not part of the electrical certificate.

The replacement of the ELCB however is a different story.
As we all know the trip rating has to be recorded onto an electrical certificate.
If the trip rating of the replacement ELCB is different to that of the original ELCB, surely that has to be recorded onto an electrical certificate, disregarding the fact that these certificates are a pain in the arse to write out?

Furthermore, you cannot issue an additional certificate to an original certificate until such time as you are satisfied that the original is indeed valid. (Electrical regulations Section 9 (2) (c)

Therefore in my honest, and quite obviously unpopular opinion, when changing an ELCB one has to then perform an inspection to the entire installation, to verify its compliance, before issuing a certificate for the ELCB installation.
This could prove to be a costly exercise for the home-owner.

[Dave A]

Therefore in my honest, and quite obviously unpopular opinion, when changing an ELCB one has to then perform an inspection to the entire installation, to verify its compliance, before issuing a certificate for the ELCB installation.

I could find it in my heart to support that point of view

A point on the stove connection issue -

We got called in on a property we'd issued a COC, ultimately because of a botched stove replacement after we'd issued the certificate.
Smashed isolator housing.
Exposed housewire between isolator and stove - no sprag.
And every time they switched the stove isolator on, it "tripped the lights. Surely the stove should be on its own circuit breaker. The stove is obviously being supplied by the light circuit. (You a-holes)"
(Actually, it was tripping the earth leakage. Sh1t like that will happen when you wire the earth and the neutral to the same terminal in the stove.)

Look, I know changing a stove doesn't need a COC, or in theory affect it - but isn't it supposed to be done by a qualified electrician?
And not as in this case, by the handyman who just happened to be at the property at the time changing the geyser...