[Question] mega - alteration to electrical installation

[mega]

I wonder if someone can help me. I stay in a very old house " fuses instead of c/breakers" A few years ago a electrician installed a new geyser and
on the wooden board a e/leakage and a sp&n. The e/leakage only switches off the sp&n. If i sell my house (1) Do i need to upgrade my d/b to c/breakers and (2) when the e/leakage was installed should my plug circuit not have been put on e/leakage.

[bergie]

the electrician only needed to make the geyser circuit compliant ( if thats what he was working on). a geyser doesnt have to be on e/leakage though.
if i do a coc i insist on getting rid of all fuses and install a new db. fuses arent allowed in domestic installations. however there was some clause about houses built before a certain date.

[Leecatt]

I wonder if someone can help me. I stay in a very old house " fuses instead of c/breakers" A few years ago a electrician installed a new geyser and
on the wooden board a e/leakage and a sp&n. The e/leakage only switches off the sp&n. If i sell my house (1) Do i need to upgrade my d/b to c/breakers and (2) when the e/leakage was installed should my plug circuit not have been put on e/leakage.

I dont understand the term sp&n

The certificate should have been issued when the work was completed

With the installation of a new geyser comes the requirement for a geyser isolator.
The installation of a geyser isolator is regarded as an alteration to the existing circuit.
The addition of an earth leakage would have also been regarded as an alteration to the circuit.

Now read the portion of the Regulations below, especially section (3) in whole

Certificate of compliance
7. (1) Subject to the provisions of subregulation (3), every user or lessor of an electrical installation, as the case may be, shall have a valid certificate of compliance for that installation in the form of Annexure 1, which shall be accompanied by a test report in the format approved by the chief inspector, in respect of every such electrical installation.
(2)
Subject to the provisions of subregulation (3), every user or lessor of an electrical installation, as the case may be, shall on request produce the certificate of compliance for that electrical installation to an inspector, a supplier or, subject to regulation 4(1), an approved inspection authority for electrical installations.
(3)
Subregulation (1) shall not apply to an electrical installation that existed prior to 23 October 1992, and where there was no change of ownership after 1 March 1994: Provided that, if any addition or alteration is effected to such an electrical installation, the user or lessor of the electrical installation, as the case may be, shall obtain a certificate of compliance for the whole electrical installation, whereafter the provisions of subregulation (1) shall be applicable to such electrical installation.

In order to issue the said certificate the db board must be brought into compliance with the latest regulations in force at the time of the alteration.
This requires that the fuses be removed and circuit breakers be installed

Yes your plugs must be fed from an earth leakage

Your electrical installation is now non-compliant and your insurance company have the right to repudiate any insurance claim resulting from an electrical fault, as set out in your contract with them.

[AndyD]

I dont understand the term sp&n

SP&N MCB is a single pole and neutral minature circuit breaker. It's actually a 2-pole device that isolates the phase and neutral when tripped. They usually only monitor the phase conductor for overload and they incorporate thermal and magnetic tripping mechanisms. I think (but I might be wrong) that they're also staggered trip with live pole being first to break and last to make when reset. The CBI samite mount version has a lever that's half green and half white which denotes overload protection on the live pole and isolation only on the neutral side.

[ians]

Commonly referred to as a geyser combo breaker , for the domestic electricians. As illustrated a Cbi unit, not used very often in new installations due to their ridiculous pricing and earth leakage unit failures.

[Leecatt]

SP&N MCB is a single pole and neutral minature circuit breaker. It's actually a 2-pole device that isolates the phase and neutral when tripped. They usually only monitor the phase conductor for overload and they incorporate thermal and magnetic tripping mechanisms. I think (but I might be wrong) that they're also staggered trip with live pole being first to break and last to make when reset. The CBI samite mount version has a lever that's half green and half white which denotes overload protection on the live pole and isolation only on the neutral side.

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Thanks Andy, I know it as an isolator circuit breaker.

[Leecatt]

(3)
Subregulation (1) shall not apply to an electrical installation that existed prior to 23 October 1992, and where there was no change of ownership after 1 March 1994: Provided that, if any addition or alteration is effected to such an electrical installation, the user or lessor of the electrical installation, as the case may be, shall obtain a certificate of compliance for the whole electrical installation, whereafter the provisions of subregulation (1) shall be applicable to such electrical installation.

An interesting point here is that in the past it was required that an electrical certificate be issued for "at least the alteration provided the rest of the installation is compliant" now any alteration requires that the entire electrical installation be re-certified.

[Dave A]

...now any alteration requires that the entire electrical installation be re-certified.

I'm not sure that re-certified is an appropriate term to use here as there would be no previous certificate of compliance in place.

Effectively, upon the addition or alteration under the conditions applicable to subreg 3, the entire installation would have to be certified for the first time.

[bergie]

if i go install an extra plug, and tell the customer i have to inspect the complete house ,the customer will laugh at me.

[Dave A]

It seems the responsibility actually falls on the user or lessor. Perhaps the solution is to advise the client that given the addition they are supposed to now obtain a COC on the full installation, and await their further instructions in that regard.

(Which admittedly may never come).

[Leecatt]

I'm not sure that re-certified is an appropriate term to use here as there would be no previous certificate of compliance in place.

Effectively, upon the addition or alteration under the conditions applicable to subreg 3, the entire installation would have to be certified for the first time.

Correct.

[Leecatt]

if i go install an extra plug, and tell the customer i have to inspect the complete house ,the customer will laugh at me.

Perhaps take along a copy of the regs and show them it?
Not an easy thing to have to do in the face of the present economic climate I will admit

[AndyD]

I think it's an ill-considered move to have removed the option to just certify the new installation work on a property. I know for myself we've moved completely out of domestic electrics on existing installations over the years and I can see more and more conciencious installers going the same route. There's no ways a ligitimate installer who has to certify the entire premises can compete with a cowboy who doesn't when it comes to minor additions and repairs. In the past it was a selling point that you would supply a cert just for the new installation work you've performed and most customers were happy to pay a premium for someone who would issue a certificate but that won't be the case if they're cornered into major remedial works on the rest of the house.
I can actually see this becoming a contributor to poorer installation standards and safety in the domestic market.

[bergie]

what about a factory? if you do an addition ,how far do you go with inspecting the rest of the installation?

[AndyD]

We're kinda lucky that with all our commercial and industrial customers we have over the years managed to get them completely safe and mostly if not completely compliant. We're more in the market of long term customers and not one-off jobs and the new customers we occasionally get that show no motivation to become compliant are dropped for other customers who do have an interest in being compliant.

I think out of all our main regular customers there's only one definate and possibly a second that hasn't got a valid COC for the entire installation. With these customers I will inform them about the full compliance requirement and carry on pushing towards it but until then we'll carry on just certifying or additions and alterations and I'm pretty sure they'll be compliant long before anyone starts policing it.