Escom doesn't care

[Slow Blow]

The problem with Eskom is that for every "White" (read qualified) engineer or artisan there are two black learners (apprentices?) attached to them at the hip so we now have 3 times the salary to fork out.
The reason that there are 2 learners is that through experience Eskom has learned that 50% of the "learners" end up dead from AIDS

[Justloadit]

If anyone wants to know more about our product or if you want to get involved in selling/ installing it in your area you can contact us by mail at celgo@eject.co.za We can also arrange financing for this system at much better rates than the banks. Our free solar house lighting system is actually completely free because you will subtract its cost from your electrical bill and you will never be without lights again.

And what is the cost to maintain the system?

[gombault]

To install the system consists of replacing all your globes with our 24v globes that fits in your standard house lamp housing. You will remove your live and neutral wires from your Ac supply and connect them to our controller unit. The solar panels and batteries also connect to the controller. You will use the existing house lights wiring and switches. The controller also has a build in power supply that’s only for incase of an emergency when you had rain for a long time. There is no maintenance required on the system but you might have to replace the batteries every 5 to 6 years.

[Justloadit]

Hmmm interesting, one of SANS regulations is that you will not mix low voltage and mains in the same DB box or conduit. All lighting is currently ending in the DB box, and in many cases may even be sharing conduit with plug wires.
Secondly if you are using lead acid batteries, and to keep your cost down then you will size the batteries for a full discharge in one evening, or close to it, you will be lucky if you get 400 cycles out of them. To last 5 or 6 years means you will over rate you battery substantially, increasing your capital equipment cost. Take a 100Amp battery, deep cycle type setting you back some R1300.00, does make a tidy some if having to buy 4 of them, then off course needing the solar panels to suite along with the controllers for charging.
Another interesting point is that Philip screws and bayonet fittings are designed for 220V systems, and changing this may cause unsuspecting users to plug in incorrectly made 24V globes into a 220V socket, and may injure themselves in the process, causing civil litigation.

Off course maintaining the 220V circuits and using an inverter to make 220V for lighting has its own problems, especially with losses in the inverters.

Either way, there is no cheap solution.

[AndyD]

Hmmm interesting, one of SANS regulations is that you will not mix low voltage and mains in the same DB box or conduit.

What you're calling 'mains' is actually LV (Low Voltage) in the regs. 24v would be classed as EVL (Extra Low Voltage). Apologies, I'm usually very conscious not to be the terminology police but in this particular case it might be misleading.

[Justloadit]

What you're calling 'mains' is actually LV (Low Voltage) in the regs. 24v would be classed as EVL (Extra Low Voltage). Apologies, I'm usually very conscious not to be the terminology police but in this particular case it might be misleading.

Maybe I did not make myself clear here, but the 'mains' I was referring to is the 230V Live and Neutral cable which originally supplied the light circuit, would be changed to a ELV 24V line, however the termination of the conduit, and the original 230V wire are terminating in the 'mains' - 230V DB board.

I have also seen where electricians, have mixed plug circuit wire, and light circuit wire in the same conduit. Since both lines are running of 230V, this would not be an issue, however if the lighting circuit is now modified to the ELV, then there is a mixture of 230V 'mains' supplied cable with ELV 24V DC wire, and passing through the 'mains' DB box.

[gombault]

I don’t know of anyone sharing lights conduit wires with plug wires. I remove the light wires live/ neutral from the Ac inside the DB BOX if that is an issue the lighting wire can be removed from the box and be connected to the 24V outside the DB Box. For my house I use 2x 105Ah batteries 4X 60w Solar panels. I have 13 globes in my house plus 6x day night lights for garden, hall and porch that’s on all night plus 4x bed lamps. I don’t know what you are talking of full discharge in one evening my batteries stay full all the time it’s only when we have wheatear like now that I switched the backup power supply on and I only had to do it twice in the last two weeks. The one battery in my system is now going for its 7th year and it is still working fine. I don’t think there is a law against making a globe that fits in a 220Vsocket in fact you can buy a 12 volt globe that fits in a 220v socket from many china shops. The problem with 12v is that the voltage drop is too big when using the standard houses wiring. I think you are trying to compare my system with an inverter system that is far more inefficient and costly.

[Justloadit]

I don’t think there is a law against making a globe that fits in a 220Vsocket in fact you can buy a 12 volt globe that fits in a 220v socket from many china shops.

The fact that China makes it, and that you can buy it at the China mall does not mean that it is legal.
They are getting away with it right now because the sales are negligible, but when you start supplying thousands into the market, the amount of chances that errors are going to happen increase exponentially.

Removing the wires as you say requires complete removal from the conduit with the 230V.
This means that you either run the wires on the wall or place conduit into the wall. Alternatively, you make all the connections in the ceiling before going into the DB box conduits.

Doing this yourself in your home gets you under the radar, but the day you want to sell your house, and require a COC, well that is adifferent story.

Also if you make a business about what you have mentioned, you must follow SANAS rules, or you will be taken out of business when the legislation catches up to you.

There is a difference between doing something yourself at home, and making a business of it.

Same as changing a plug socket at home, if you do it yourself, chances are no one is going to know about it, but now advertise that you can do this, and you are not a qualified electrician creates another set of problems.

[Justloadit]

I think you are trying to compare my system with an inverter system that is far more inefficient and costly.

Of course the inverter has loses, what I was referring to here was to maintain the house wiring as is, and using the inverter to run the lights of the battery via the inverter. Since it is all 230V it will be acceptable in the regulations.

[AndyD]

........I don’t think there is a law against making a globe that fits in a 220Vsocket in fact you can buy a 12 volt globe that fits in a 220v socket from many china shops.

This is an interesting topic all on it's own. The 'cap' or the form factor of the base of a lamp doesn't determine what voltage it is although it's a commonly held misconception. For example the GX5.3 base which is commonly referred to as a 12 volt halogen can actually be 230v as well. Here's a bi-pin lamp that's 120 volt manufactured by Philips which certainly isn't a no-name generic. Regardless of the lamp holder or the lamp base you can never assume it's voltage I even came across a G5.3 halogen bi-pin lamp that's 82V.....never even knew 82v was a recognised lamp voltage.

I've also learned the lesson the hard way when I replaced some 20 watt bi-pin lamps that came pre-installed in a hi-fi cabinet for a buddy of mine, I assumed there was a transformer concealed somewhere and that they were ELV, they were actually 230v and the result was a large bang as one of them exploded when the power was connected.

[Justloadit]

Hi Andy,

The lamps that you have indicated are specialized lamps for projectors, they are not easily available for consumers to purchase over the counter at a lighting warehouse/shop. In all likelihood, anyone purchasing these lamps is well aware of the application,,especially at the price they are sold for.

Now take Mrs Jones, who knows nothing about lamps, goes to the lighting warehouse, looks at the picture, likes the shape, but has no idea what the word voltage means, she sees 24V DC, she simply recognizes the shape of the bottom of the lamp, it looks just like her incandescent lamp she wishes to replace.... can you see where I am going with this.....

[gombault]

Many new houses are now using transformers and low voltage down lighters (12v) that has the same connection fitting as the 220v down lighter. My globe could never be confused with an incandescent globe and its marked 24v Dc, people that don’t understand voltages also shouldn’t change globes. The lights wiring that come out of the DB board in all the houses I’ve seen is in its own conduit, removing those wires completely from the DB board is not that difficult for an electrician and if you can have 12V down lighters then you can also have 24V globes. If it’s a new house you also don’t take the lights wiring in to the DB board. The problem with an inverter system is that it will trip if the voltage is just slightly low leaving you without lights. People selling these systems are trying to prevent that by using bigger batteries and panels that pushes the price up considerably.

[Justloadit]

Many new houses are now using transformers and low voltage down lighters (12v) that has the same connection fitting as the 220v down lighter.

Incorrect in your assumption - the 220V down lighter has a different connector to the 12V one, you can not make a mistake with the incorrect lamp and holder.

My globe could never be confused with an incandescent globe and its marked 24v Dc, people that don’t understand voltages also shouldn’t change globes.

I am not saying that there is confusion between your globe and a incandescent. What I am saying is that many people do not know what 24V means, and quite frankly there is no reason why they should know, if they have want to change the globe in there home to any other type of globe, they don't need to be a rocket scientist, they simply look at the holder and get a replacement, this is where the problem lies, using the standard 220V fittings available to make your 24V globes is not the right way to do it. As I have said before, doing a handful is not the same as having a fully fledged business selling to the consumers. There are laws involved, and if not followed will land you up in deep dire straights.

So you are telling me Mrs Jones needs to call in an electrician every time she needs to replace a globe? The real world does not work like this, and there is no reason that you have to be an electrician to replace a globe, This is the reason that there are regulations in place to ensure that lamps and fittings are installed correctly, so that anyone may be able to change a globe.

The lights wiring that come out of the DB board in all the houses I’ve seen is in its own conduit, removing those wires completely from the DB board is not that difficult for an electrician and if you can have 12V down lighters then you can also have 24V globes. If it’s a new house you also don’t take the lights wiring in to the DB board. The problem with an inverter system is that it will trip if the voltage is just slightly low leaving you without lights. People selling these systems are trying to prevent that by using bigger batteries and panels that pushes the price up considerably.

Removing the wires from the DB is what I had mentioned in my previous post, the only other way to getting round the removal of the light circuits was to use an inverter, and yes I accept that the inverters have their own inherent problems, one of them is the one you mentioned here.

[irneb]

...if you can have 12V down lighters then you can also have 24V globes...

Just an observation: The 12V "downlighters" you mention usually have their transformers close-by. So the power coming from the DB is still 220V AC, going into the "balast" (tends to be mounted inside the ceiling void, sorry balast is what it's usually called in the building industry) which converts it to 12V DC and then a short cable (usually 1 to 2 m) to the light fitting itself.

Sometimes you find a shared balast between several 12V's, though from my own experience on numerous large scale projects, more than 4 fittings per balast tends to be very unreliable - bulbs blowing within a month of replacing. This is even worse with fluorescent tubes, there I've NEVER seen any last long with shared balasts.

And anyway, the new tendency in large buildings is to go with LED's in any case. Though these are still installed in the same manner as the older 12V downlighters: 220V power from the DB to the transformer (sometimes forming part of the fitting itself). So from what I've experienced, I tend to be wary of ELV travelling large distances - you end up with lots of dips in power levels which in turn has detrimental effects on the equipment. The LED's seem to be more robust that the old halogen / neon / etc. fittings, but strange that the commercially available go even more with affixed transformers than the older types did - just saying.

The idea is great, and I understand that the bayonet/screw fitting is not restricted to 220V. It's just that from my experience, and what I can forsee if 12V / 24V / any other voltage is going into a 220V powered socket - it's going to blow up, and I can see this happening very many times. People tend to not read labels too much, if it fits they will think it should work.

Perhaps a simplified safety feature would be to add a notch on your fitting (glue a piece of plastic/steel on the side), then a converted light socket (i.e. powered with 24V) can have a slot cut into it so the notch slides in. This should be reasonably simple for the bayonet type and shouldn't cost much more (if any), the screw type may need some attention though - but I think a similar approach could help. And it would stop the tendency for people to simply stick something in and see what happens.

[Dave A]

Reading this, it seems the logic behind requiring different sized fittings for different voltages is inescapable.

Time that it is incorporated into a standard, perhaps?