Geyser trips when hot

[DieterT]

This post has gone quiet without the reason for the problem. I wonder what the cause was. My first thought was the element. If it had a hairline crack forming it would still warm the water until the crack opened enough to allow excessive enough current through the water to cause the CB to trip. As the water cooled it will close the crack and be ready to warm the water again until the crack opened enough to trip it again. The electrical backup should not be going through the solar circuitry, thus a fault there would just mean that it would be permanently on electrical supply. A 200L geyser should not have such a small element so by the reading you are getting i am wondering, is your element to small and has started to burst open or on the other hand, if the element is the right size then it has definitely started to go because the reading is too low. If you used a clamp meter to test the amperage clamp it over both live and neutral, if you get a reading you know how much current is flowing through the water. Get a new element. If you have a non-contact tester you can just hold it against the copper pipes near the geyser, if it says it is live you will also know it is the element. Just because taps don't "tingle" does not mean that this is not possible, it just means that the earthing is good.


I see now you did say 3kW element, that amperage is too low for 3kW, you were given a faulty element.

In my opinion this is what I conclude to what information was supplied, correct me if I am wrong:
-Geyser is under earth leakage and is fed by circuit breaker
-Circuit breaker is tripping and not earth leakage
-Therefor, either poor earthing (if there was a earth fault) thus earth leakage not tripping or there is no earth fault therefor we move over to the circuit breaker

-Normal mini circuit breaker tripping conditions comes down to 1.Overload & 2.Short circuit (L-N,L-earth) PS : touch the outer casing of the circuit breaker and feel if hot
-Geyser element is a 3kw (3000w) therefor (average calculation) 3000w / (220v - 230v) = +/- 13A therefor if element is within that range it should be fine?
-If element had a crack on it and water was seething into it especially when it got hot and expanded, then the earth leakage would have tripped (if earthing was sound) as it would have been leaking to earth

If not tripping on overload and you are sure about this, then consider one of two options :
-One is that something on the circuit side is shorting out (L-N or L-earth) when activated. I have no idea how the circuit is designed therefor I would be of no further use there. Normally on circuitry damaged it is noticeable and especially if it could cause a 20A circuit breaker to trip on short circuit the damage should be noticeable.
-Otherwise damage on the element and when the solar is not active it uses the element and when the element is hot it expands and shorts out between live and earth and therefor trips the circuit breaker.
Maybe something to consider is to ask the client when it trips is it during the evening or when it is clouded, just to get some more insight into to pattern.
-If one of these ain't the answer then consider after having checked that everything is fine from supply to load to replace the circuit breaker as this could be faulty. As mentioned earlier is if you touch the outer casing and it is hot and the load in at 13A then check for loose connections on circuit breaker and if all is sound, then circuit breaker is overheating inside there for worn out.
As you say its a 100km trip, I would change it non the less to exclude the possibility as they could have possibly used the circuit breaker as a switch which it is not designed for as previously indicated by Justloadit

If there is one thing I learned in my time working in the IT industry is when a client says his PC is not working, check first that the power cable is plugged in. This was many years ago, but it seriously was like that back then.
This in turn has thought me to start with the basics and the most cost effective faultfinding. Remember to always explain this to the client so that he/she can understand that you are looking out for their pocket rather than just replacing everything, like allot of IT technicians are doing these days if you have a problem with your computer, you format and re install, problem resolved....
This I also see with inexperienced electricians, earth leakage trips, they replace it. Contactor burns out, they replace it. Never finding the cause of the problem.

As you would know as an electrician, start by disconnecting the geyser and doing an insulation test on the element between Live to Earth and Neutral to Earth. Check continuity between the beginning and end of the element and also for the sake of doing it check the resistance of the element. Then if all is sound, make sure the supply is disconnected at the board and then test between (L/N/earth) make sure the supply is clean and isolator is connected properly and is making and breaking correctly.

From there if everything is sound, you can change the circuit breaker if you stay very far from the client and it having to cost allot to go back. You can explain this to the client especially if the circuit breaker was used "incorrectly" as a switch and there for justified to be replaced.

This would be the average faultfinding procedure apart from doing fault finding on the circuitry of the geyser.

[joshthejew]

Great and extremely explanatory posts from all. Very much appreciated. After I went back to replace the cb and more looking around and yes, saw the solar panel and PC board had nothing to do with the electrical system. I now understand what that little sucking sound behind the geyser was, even when all power was off. That valve the PC controls, as Andy mentioned. I replaced the existing SWAN cb and haven't got a call back.
I also removed the ripple relay, because the people never actually realize that they switched something on and it tripped. They do nothing wrong. It just trips... Lol. Also noticed the bloody thing didn't have an isolator or a double pole cb. Bet it's inexperienced solar guys who did the wiring and install.

T

[Sparks]

Thanks for the feedback, I missed the ELCB protection. Not used to it. In the East Cape we don't run the geyser circuits through them and I tend to forget that other people do. That would be a dead give-away of a burst element.

[DieterT]

You can see when someone don't trust their own work or the work of their staff if they wire everything under earth leakage. People tend to forget about earth bonding and earth resistance....

"I used to have a lot of anger issues, now I just have a passion for justice"

[faeezw]

I had the same problem a short while ago. It turned out the owner was turning the circuit breaker off during the day and on again in the evening to save electricity. This continuous on off motion damaged the circuit breaker especially when it was turned on under load. Eventually it failed and would trip occasionally. I replaced the circuit breaker and the problem went away.

I have geyser on the roof with the solar panels - new property - built in 2018. I have also in an effort to save cost on the electricity I would turned the geyser switch / circuit breaker on in the morning for about an hour. The same in the evening - on for about an hour and then off. This has been the practice for the past 2 years.

During the summer month with the solar panels, I hardly had a need to turn on the geyser.

Yesterday morning I had the geyser on for about 3 hours and then turned if off. When I tried to turn it on this morning, the geyser kept tripping - resulting in a cold shower this morning.

Could I be having the same problem due to the continuous turning it on and off had damaged the circuit breaker of could there be other possibilities.

[Justloadit]

I have geyser on the roof with the solar panels - new property - built in 2018. I have also in an effort to save cost on the electricity I would turned the geyser switch / circuit breaker on in the morning for about an hour. The same in the evening - on for about an hour and then off. This has been the practice for the past 2 years.

During the summer month with the solar panels, I hardly had a need to turn on the geyser.

It may be your circuit breaker is faulty and needs to be replaced.
Get an electrician in to check your system.

This is the one problem with the evacuated tube solar water heaters. They supply enough tubes, to keep the price low, and also, that the water does not over heat during summer.
When winter comes, the sun radiance is a lot less, and the amount of hot water consumption goes up, forcing you to use electricity to heat up the water.
This defeats the object of having a solar water heating system.

I have a PV based system, which uses the existing geyser geyser thermostat and element to heat water.
I turn my thermostat to maximum, and I have 65°C hot water every day, and hardly use electricity to heat my water except for the days that water is over used, or there is hardly any sun radiance.

Since I installed my system for 2 geysers, I have saved over R500.00 a month on power bills, and have already clocked 2,000KWHours of solar from November 2020 to July 2021. That's just over 8KWhours a day.

[faeezw]

It may be your circuit breaker is faulty and needs to be replaced.
Get an electrician in to check your system.

This is the one problem with the evacuated tube solar water heaters. They supply enough tubes, to keep the price low, and also, that the water does not over heat during summer.
When winter comes, the sun radiance is a lot less, and the amount of hot water consumption goes up, forcing you to use electricity to heat up the water.
This defeats the object of having a solar water heating system.

I have a PV based system, which uses the existing geyser geyser thermostat and element to heat water.
I turn my thermostat to maximum, and I have 65°C hot water every day, and hardly use electricity to heat my water except for the days that water is over used, or there is hardly any sun radiance.

Since I installed my system for 2 geysers, I have saved over R500.00 a month on power bills, and have already clocked 2,000KWHours of solar from November 2020 to July 2021. That's just over 8KWhours a day.

Thanks for the detailed feedback. I do have an electrician coming to check out the problem this afternoon. Once more, thanks for the feedback. Much appreciated.

[No sparks plz]

There seems to be a little bit of a gray area around the topic of whether geysers should be on the earth leakage? Unless ive missed something . Could someone clarify this with the Latest sans code ? Should it be connected to E.L or Not . Im new here, nice to be part of your electrical club

[GCE]

There seems to be a little bit of a gray area around the topic of whether geysers should be on the earth leakage? Unless ive missed something . Could someone clarify this with the Latest sans code ? Should it be connected to E.L or Not . Im new here, nice to be part of your electrical club

The requirement for Earth Leakage was publish in 2017 Ed 2
Have pasted the clause from the latest Ed 3 of SANS 10142-1

6.16.2.1 All water heaters shall be bonded in accordance with 6.13 and a.c.
supply circuits shall be protected by earth leakage protection with IΔn not
exceeding 30 mA.