[Question] 12V Downlighters

[cknipe]

Hi,

Can someone perhaps shed some light on what is / is not permitted in terms of 12VDC downlighters?

I've got quite a few in my home that is up to code (as far as *I* understand), but also heard horror stories about them where COC's were refused and all the lights had to be rewired to 220VAC downlights... Ideally, I want to install more 12V downlights and eventually replace all my lights with 12V LEDs... But if it's going to mean that I need to rip all of that out the day I sell my house, then it's not going to happen obviously.

My transformers has built in overload and short circuit protection, they are rated at (if I remember correctly) 2A on the secondary side, and I have 6 x 20W lights on each transformer (1.4A)... Wiring done with 1.5m twin & earth

Can I perhaps got a bit off my own topic, and also ask the same question about draw boxes (specifically for lights) in the roof? I currently run panel wire in conduits in my home, and the conduits are all broken and in a complete mess (heaven knows how it got a COC when I bought the property some years ago). I want to replace the conduits and panel wire with standard twin and earth, laying loose in the roof (or maybe in a cable tray or something) and basically get rid of the conduits. There's only two light circuits from the DB to the roof - would two draw boxes be required, or can I put both of them into a single draw box, provided they have separate bus bars for the connections?

thnx.

[Leecatt]

I don't know where to start. Perhaps a little legal advice is best.
It is illegal for any person to interfere with the with installation on your property unless they are suitably qualified to do so or are under the direct control of someone who is. There is a jail sentence applicable for serious cases.

[cknipe]

sigh...

Let me rather just move on...

[Leecatt]

Sigh

Another house about to burn to the ground.
Answer me one question, when you have need of a dentist do you go the DIY route first? People are qualified for a reason and that is to protect you from being electrocuted and losing you most important possession. Call your insurance company and ask them what they think of DIY electrical work?
You may go now.

[cknipe]

Why must people always expect the worse and tread others like idiots?

1) I have a N7 Bsc Electrical Engineering
2) My Father in law (now retired) is a fscking Master Electrician that worked in factories that you can only dream about
3) We both know VERY WELL what we are doing
4) I have personally rewired my entire house and installed new DBs more than 5 years ago - my house is still standing, nothing burned to the ground (or burned at all for that matter)...

Please don't assume I'm a fscking kid that does not know what he's doing. It's people like you that MAKES US do things ourselves, instead of being taken for a ride by bloody sparkies!

Standards change (as I am sure you are well aware), and as neither myself nor my father is in the industry this was plain and simply a courtesy post to find out what is / is not allowed these days. Seeing that you think that I'm a fscking idiot, rather just leave it. I'll go and download the latest copy of SANS10142 from the SABS' web site -shrugs-

[Leecatt]

I did reply to this post but it seems to have vanished into cyberspace so allow me to try again.

Why must people always expect the worse and tread others like idiots?

1) I have a N7 Bsc Electrical Engineering

This does not qualify you to work on an electrical installation unsupervised by a qualified installation electrician.

2) My Father in law (now retired) is a fscking Master Electrician that worked in factories that you can only dream about

There is a difference between a Master Electrician who is similar to a Senior Electrician, and a Master Installation Electrician. If what you say is correct then your father is not qualified to work on any electrical installation in South Africa unsupervised.
If he is qualified then he needs to be registered with The Department of labour before he can work as a contractor

3) We both know VERY WELL what we are doing

I doubt that very much

4) I have personally rewired my entire house and installed new DBs more than 5 years ago - my house is still standing, nothing burned to the ground (or burned at all for that matter)...

Who inspected the electrical installation and issued the Electrical Compliance Certificate?

Please don't assume I'm a fscking kid that does not know what he's doing.

I am not assuming anything, you seem to be proving your assumptions very well on your own

It's people like you that MAKES US do things ourselves, instead of being taken for a ride by bloody sparkies!

The Sparkies who you say are taking you for a ride are working within the gambits of the law, apparently you are not.

It is people like you that give this industry a bad name. I am continuously "cleaning up" after a person like yourself has done sub-standard work.
The attitude that "I know what I am Doing" is what costs lives at the end of the day.
It makes me sick to my stomach to watch, as wannabe electricians will put their own personal issues before the safety of others, this happens all the time in this country.

Standards change (as I am sure you are well aware), and as neither myself nor my father is in the industry this was plain and simply a courtesy post to find out what is / is not allowed these days. Seeing that you think that I'm a fscking idiot, rather just leave it. I'll go and download the latest copy of SANS10142 from the SABS' web site -shrugs-

Good luck with that.


I would suggest that you read The Occupational and safety Act; Electrical installation Regulations 2009 which I have attached to this post and pay special attention to section 6 and section 15.
According to The Act, if neither of you is qualified to work on an electrical installation and you intentionally did so unsupervised by a qualified person, then you may be found criminally responsible and fined R200.00 per day since the electricity was connected to your electrical installation or jailed for a period of 12 Months, or both.

Please enjoy the rest of your day.

[Sparks]

A lot more diplomatic than I would have been I am sure. The original statement/question already declares incompetency. Thanks to Andy there is a sticky right at the top of this forum which clearly states who is competent to work on an installation. Maybe it needs to be translated :-D

[julies]

Well said Leecatt. Anyway I have a question about 12VDC Downlights.

I would like to install 12V DC Downlights in my one passage. I will be running it from a Battery. I know about electrical safety and will take the necessary measures to insure its done correctly ( I will only do it based on the answers you give as I am not sure if this job would also need a qualified installation electrician)

So question is:

If I am not connecting to the mains, but straight to a isolated battery, do I need a C.O.C. All my 12V wiring will run on its own conduit etc. Basically a whole new 12V network.

Thanks

[Sparks]

Will it be an "electrical installation"? (irrespective of the voltage)
Do you know the regulations pertaining to 12V installations?
Are you a "competent" installer? (Qualified electrician is not good enough unless you are working "under the direct supervision of a competent electrician")
All "solar" networks are ELV networks, that does not mean they are exempt from certification, neither does it mean that there are no regulations applicable to them.
Even if you are not charging your battery by solar panel, there are regulations pertaining to 12V circuitry which must be adhered to.
Having the network in separate conduits is only one of the prerequisites.

[DieterT]

You know the funny thing about people that have engineering degrees. They always look down at the technicians or in this case the installers. Thinking they are more clever.

But can we blame them with all the incompentance in this industry?

Besides all the politics. You may have good knowledge about wiring and installations how to do everything in accordance to your knowledge.

Sometimes I advise clients on things they can do themselves and where they need to draw the line and call an electrician. Simple thing, they are going to do it themselves regardless whether the law says yes or no since in this country its all about saving a buck (no not a deer, cause life is less valuable)

So now the questions is, will I as a professional advise them how to do it correctly or be "harde kop" and shove them off.

In my personal opinion, I would advise them how to do it correctly knowing that I won't read in the newspaper how a little kid got shocked to death or a property burnt to the ground with a whole family inside due to electrical fault.

FYI for the contractor/ installer/ labourer or what ever you would label yourself as. You have your own profession and have your own regulations which you probably know very well if you deem yourself as a profesional and live by as if its the bible. Our industry has its own. Keep to the regulations and just remember that who ever signs your CoC will have to inspect the safety through testing and visual inspection.

That is also the only part they would sign on the CoC (if he is clever enough) since the installation itself would be covered by the original CoC which includes the design, construction and material procurement.

Thus having been said the liability would fall onto the owner (user or lessor) of the property or in the case where you would sell the property it would be the new owner which in turn would have to prosecute the previous owner since he never gave him the original CoC with the property.

Yes that is how far it will go should someone put time and effort into it, but should someone I love be killed or insurance deny my claim I would put every last breath into finding that person and making him pay on all levels possible.

In New Zealand they have codes for DIY and for the Professional. A normal person can even change his own plug...

I work with other contractors and I authorize them to do some parts of the installation as per my spesifications and then I inspect, test and sign off the CoC, but it's mostly piping with draw wire inside then I supply them with the rest of the materials, do the wiring and connections.

In another case someone I got to know and trust very well having worked together. I allow him to pipe, wire and connect materials he bought then I just come and inspect the connections and do the tests (which will indicate if everything is done right...)

I then also require the invoices for the materials he bought at a registered electrical supplier as proof that the materials aren't "fongkong"

The inspector advises that when we the professionals write the CoC that the person who did the design, construction and material procurement sign these parts. True that, but in my opinion if I know that, that person is not properly registered with the correct authorities then allowing him to sign there I would be making a morally incorrect decision.

That what you are doing as a DIY is it worth it to save a buck and in turn possibly putting someone else's life in danger and / or putting the possibility out there of being procecuted and having to pay lots of money to rectify your mistakes or serve jail time for it?

Or would it be better to get someone properly registered to come do it for you in turn having the peace of mind that everyone is safe and should a problem arise that he would take full responsibility?

Take the time to think about that and should you still want to continue to DIY then I would advise you best as possible.

Kind regards

"I used to have a lot of anger issues, now I just have a passion for justice"

[DieterT]

@Julies

I had a conversation with the electrical inspector recently about solar panels, batteries and gridtied installations.

Currently some parts of the solar installation needs to be CoC'd if and when its gridtied (thus connected to mains)
They are in the proces of changing the regulations that the whole solar installation be CoC'd wheter or not gridtied.

In accordance to electrical regulations we are authorized between 0v and 1000v

A few case have arised of roofs burning due to panels, battery banks exploding and severe shocks. Unfortunetly there is alot of "fongkong" out there and seeing how I can quote someone R150 000 and the next moment someone else can quote R40 000 for the same size installation...well enough said.

Solar is going to become like electric fencing. For a while your average guy from the street could install it and no certification was needed. Now the person installing it has to be registered or been given authority by a registered person and the you require a CoC.

Get it done properly then you know when the time comes to get the certificate you won't struggle or have to pay lots to fix mistakes. That is the big headache with selling a property with an electric fence, cause most casses they have to be redone.


"I used to have a lot of anger issues, now I just have a passion for justice"

[julies]

Thanks for the input, but let me ask the question another way. When something considered an "installation" ? Where can I find this information. I have no doubt when you say that there is a 12V Regulation, but then what about the Alarm Technicians. Shouldn't they also be an registered as an accredited person under the DOL to do installations and sign off on a COc ? When ever I see jobs advertised for alarm technicians I have never see one requirements of the job being "Wiremans Licence"

[Sparks]

"electrical installation" means any machinery, in or on any premises, used for the transmission of electricity from a point of control to a point of consumption anywhere on the premises, including any article forming part of such an electrical installation irrespective of whether or not it is part of the electrical circuit, but excluding
(a)
any machinery of the supplier related to the supply of electricity on the premises;
(b)
any machinery which transmits electrical energy in communication, control circuits, television or radio circuits;
4
No. 31975 GOVERNMENT GAZETTE, 6 MARCH 2009
(e)
an electrical installation on a vehicle, vessel, train or aircraft; and
(d)
control circuits of 50 V or less between different parts of machinery or system components, forming a unit, that are separately installed and derived from an independent source or an isolating transformer;

Because they work with 12V they are not required to be "Accredited" and registered with DOL. They should however be subjected to training regarding acceptable installation methods which sadly do not exist. A reputable company might give in-house training to new recruits. Their systems are plugged in appliances and therefore excluded from the COC. The onus rests on the client to express disdain at the shoddy and irresponsible installation methods. The same applies when geysers are conected by plumbers, the client has no clue that the electrics are being done by a plumber with no knowledge and that the work is being done illegally. Until the next plumber gets electrocuted, then it is the electrician who issued the COC prior to the geyser replacement who is to blame.

[Bizza]

there are quite a few institutions that offer installation rules,can you kindly assist of a credible one with a gud track record. I need to enroll for this course.

[Sparks]

I do believe that the installation rules courses being offered are not for 12Volt but rather basic tubing and RDP house type wiring.