12V Downlighters

[julies]

Thanks for the reply Sparks, But this then leads to the next question... If the alarm system is a "Plug in" Appliance and does not need a CoC, as you have stated in you post, Then why can't I just install a 12V "Plug in" row of 12V down lights ? (assuming all the equipment is SABS approved) or just connect the down lights straight to a small single battery ( like an alarm system battery) with the wires glued on the wall like telephone wires or any other 12V lights.. I honestly cannot see the diffrence between what the Alarm tech does when installing 12V network and me just installing a 12V network.. Ps I am just trying to understand and not being difficult

[Mike C]

Sigh

Another house about to burn to the ground.

You may go now.

[Justloadit]

No need for a COC there

[Sparks]

A valid question Julies. You must however keep in mind that there are differences between an "appliance", a "fixed appliance" and "installation". Granted, what is "plugged" in is not covered by the COC. The problem with what you are suggesting however has specific limitations. Are you going to buy a SANS approved kit to plug in or are you going to "manufacture" your "appliance"? Will you be obtaining SANS approval for your "plugged in" "appliance". If you wish to retain your insurance cover these criteria will need to be met. Using a high amperage transformer to supply a string of 12Volt downlights can be very hazardous. How many batteries are you going to need to supply the amperage for all your downlights? What gauge cable are you going to use over what length for what amperage? There are a lot of factors which need to be considered before the regulations can be utilised to their full effect.
Maybe that is what you need to think about. The regs are not there to nail anyone. They are there because they ensure that you do not cause a hazardous situation which will lead to damage to the extent of costing a life. They are there for your benefit, not to nail your ass to the wall. Some people have brought about their own deaths by making a simple "appliance" such a a bedside lamp just because they used ripcord for a metal lampshade with a brass lamp holder. The regs warn you that if it is metal it must be earthed! See them as your "protector".

[Sparks]

See how "friendly" the Friendly City is?

[DieterT]

Ps : on a ES brass holder, where do you connect neutral and live and why?
Something probably not even half the electricians know out there, but such a simple mistake people make which also can easily take someone's life... that is why there are rules and regulations.

"I used to have a lot of anger issues, now I just have a passion for justice"

[Sparks]

Even minimal logic would suggest the correct way is with the live on the center terminal.

[gobbleteller]

Hi all. I see a lot of people have actually gone off topic here, so I'll do the same. A friend of mine wants to connect an inverter to his home for when Eksdom decides to cut the power again. Here's the setup and I'd appreciate your input:
It is a 12V 700W device. To charge the 12V battery, he will be using a plug in 220V:12V charger. From the inverter, he wants to feed a seperate db which will feed a few lights and a tv (these also seperate from the main wiring of the house)... All through an earth leakage. My question is... Will he need to get a CoC for the system now being fed from the inverter?

[Leecatt]

Hi all. I see a lot of people have actually gone off topic here, so I'll do the same. A friend of mine wants to connect anpinverter to his home for when Eksdom decides to cut the power again. Here's the setup and I'd appreciate your input:
It is a 12V 700W device. To charge the 12V battery, he will be using a plug in 220V:12V charger. From the inverter, he wants to feed a seperate db which will feed a few lights and a tv (these also seperate from the main wiring of the house)... All through an earth leakage. My question is... Will he need to get a CoC for the system now being fed from the inverter?

The short answer is yes.
It's a permanent installation.
Read the definition of Electrical Installation in the EIR.
People make the mistake of believing that if its plugged in its no longer part of the electrical installation, this is not always true.

[Sparks]

People make the mistake of believing that if its plugged in its no longer part of the electrical installation, this is not always true.

Spot on, most people make that mistake. The regs say an isolator or socket outlet may be used to isolate an appliance. If a geyser is plugged in it is by no means exempt from the regulations applicable to it.

[gobbleteller]

Thanks Leecatt and Sparks. Our untrustworthy electrical supply and the whole "going green" is bring a new dimension to the electrical industry. Generators, inverters, solar panels, downlights, etc etc etc and new headaches creep into the lives of the electrician. People will be making changes to their electrical systems, some that are illegal (possibly unknowingly)... placing their families in danger. Users will have to be made aware that their way of counteracting the rolling blackouts could potentially harm them if not done correctly and according to legislation.

[ACEsterhuizen]

geyser is NEVER part of a coc


..

OR plugged in stuff

[Leecatt]

Please clarify the statement above "NEVER not part of any Coc". Meaning, always part of a Coc?

[ACEsterhuizen]

See SANS 10142 & the OCCUPATIONAL HEALTH AND SAFETY ACT, 1993 ELECTRICAL INSTALLATION REGULATIONS of 6 March 2009:

If an appliance is on a plug (or not) it is excluded from the definition (and such regulations of SANS 10142) of an installation.

On the "TEST REPORT": Point 3: "This report covers the circuits for fixed appliances, but does not cover the actual appliances, for example stoves, geysers, air conditioning and refrigeration plant and lights.

The "geyser" / "waterheater" is ALWAYS excluded from the current SANS 10142 re the CoC:

6.16 Fixed appliances

6.16.1 General

NOTE The general requirements in 6.16.1.1 to 6.16.1.13 apply, except where
otherwise required for specific cases. Amdt 4

6.16.1.1 Fixed appliances do not form part of the electrical installation
other than their positioning in relation to the supply and the wiring carried
out between different parts of the appliances

6.16.2 Water heaters

NOTE Water heaters include geysers, instantaneous water heaters including units
for boiling water, and the like (see also 6.16.1). Amdt 4

6.16.2.1 All water heaters shall be bonded in accordance with 6.13. (read 6.13 .... nothing to do with the geyser itself, the water systems hot and cold must be bonded - no geyser appliance related issues)

6.16.2.2 Dedicated circuits shall be provided for water heaters and there
may be more than one water heater on each circuit. (dedicated circuits to water heaters, no other circuits to be on that circuit...other plugs, lights, jacuzzis, pools, cold rooms etc)

NOTE If a water heater is installed in a bathroom, see table 7.1 regarding earth
leakage protection. (Supply to geyser issues)


"electrical installation" means any machinery, in or on any premises, used for the transmission of electricity from a point of control to a point of consumption anywhere on the premises, including any article forming part of such an electrical installation irrespective of whether or not it is part of the electrical circuit, but excluding
(a) any machinery of the supplier related to the supply of electricity on the premises;
(b) any machinery which transmits electrical energy in communication, control circuits, television or radio circuits;
(e) an electrical installation on a vehicle, vessel, train or aircraft; and
(d) control circuits of 50 V or less between different parts of machinery or system components, forming a unit, that are separately installed and derived from an independent source or an isolating transformer;

"point of consumption" means any point of outlet or the supply terminals of machinery which is not connected to a point of outlet and which converts electrical energy to another form of energy: Provided that in the case of machinery which has been installed for any specific purpose as a complete unit, the point of consumption shall be the supply terminals which have been provided on the unit of machinery for that purpose

"point of outlet" means any termination of an electrical installation which has been provided for connecting any electrical machinery without the use of tools;

(The "electrical installation" ends at the point of outlet (plug) or if not plugged in at the supply terminals of the machinery)

[Justloadit]

My understanding has always been that any circuit under 50V does not require a COC and is excluded from the regulations.
Home alarms, intercoms and Solar systems and battery systems fall under this category. However I would assume that if there is an inverter involved, which generates 220V, may ...........................