COC 12 volt lights

[Derlyn]

Hi all

First time in all my years I've had this one.

Busy with a COC on a domestic installation.

All the lights are 12V and are powered from a battery that is charged by a solar panel through a regulator that is fused.

Must these lights be included on the COC, seeing that they are not in any way connected to the Municipal Supply ?

There is no lights breaker in the DB.



Derek

[GCE]

Hi

I would say yes it needs to be included as part of the COC ( introduction of SANS 10142 covers it ) - It is an alternative source
People think 12v and don't worry about the regulations.The fault current on batteries could be higher than the incoming supply fault level and so the protection and wiring of the 12v circuits is of utmost importance
The fuses or C/Breakers need to be DC rated as should the rest of the components

Have pasted the introduction to SANS below

SANS 10142-1:2017
Edition 2
1
Introduction
In this edition an attempt has been made to move towards the IEC codes:
extra low voltage (below 50 V) and d.c. applications (up to 1,5 kV) have been
introduced as new requirements owing to the extensive usage of, and
increased fire risk that result from, high load currents. This part of
SANS 10142 does not intend to cover the LV control circuits of machinery or
system components that are external circuits between separately installed
parts of the machinery or system components.

[ians]

Personally i would not even mention it in the COC...if they are not connected in any way to the "electrical installation" via a step down transformer...change over switch...etc

Something to consider if you do decide to risk the consequences of including them.

Are they SABS approved or have some form of approval recognized in SA?

Who installed them...was it done by registered person and if so why was a COC not issued for the installation.

"high load currents" these low voltage lights supplied from these cheap systems certainly dont fall into the high load current category...the ones they refer to in the SABS are the old 50 watt 12 volt lamps which were a huge risk when people connected 6 or more of these to a single transformer using 1.5 mm wire.

[Derlyn]

Thank you

2 contradicting replies from 2 well respected members.

That's why I posed the question. After speaking to a number of registered electricians in my area, I was none the wiser.

Some say yes, include in COC, others say that the COC covers the wiring and associated equipment of the installation between the point of control and the points of consumption and these 12 Volt LED downlights supplied by a battery are not part thereof. ( I cannot disagree )

Clearly a grey area and I have decided to include them in the COC, with a note that all the lights are 12 Volt.

Reading once again through the regulations, I understand the term Alternate Supply to mean an alternative mains supply at mains voltage. The only place I can find batteries mentioned together with alternate supplies is where they are used to start motors for generators or when they are used in conjunction with a UPS.

[Dave A]

I suggest each electrical installation should have its own COC.

Where the alternative supply portions of the standard become particularly important (if that solves the issue) is in notifications - particularly that inform that parts of electrical installation(s) present may still be live even when the Main Switch has disconnected the supply (to that particular installation),

[ians]

Thank you

2 contradicting replies from 2 well respected members.

That's why I posed the question. After speaking to a number of registered electricians in my area, I was none the wiser.

Some say yes, include in COC, others say that the COC covers the wiring and associated equipment of the installation between the point of control and the points of consumption and these 12 Volt LED downlights supplied by a battery are not part thereof. ( I cannot disagree )

Clearly a grey area and I have decided to include them in the COC, with a note that all the lights are 12 Volt.

Reading once again through the regulations, I understand the term Alternate Supply to mean an alternative mains supply at mains voltage. The only place I can find batteries mentioned together with alternate supplies is where they are used to start motors for generators or when they are used in conjunction with a UPS.

Can you produce some form of certification for the solar panels...charge unit...light fittings and lamps?

This is an interesting question...my home lights are already completely separate (same setup as you mentioned)...not part of my electrical installation ...no COC ...the next step is 4 solar panels connected directly to my geyser...completely separate from my electrical installation.

The only reason i would even consider entertaining some form of certification would be for insurance purposes..that is who you should be asking ...will your insurance company cover your house if it burns down due to a fire caused by this equipment...or sue the electrical inspector...they certainly wont be trying to recover costs from some company in China...you would be a way easier target.

something you should consider before putting your stamp of approval on the COC ...would the insurance company sue you for liability and costs considering you signed that it is "reasonably safe or SABS approved safe" as per section 4 ...10-11 and 12.

the reason i included 10 ...could they regard the lighting as safety or emergency lighting...considering they have a backup and stay on when the power is off.

The way i see it ...you only become liable for it if you acknowledge responsibility for it...i would rather be beaten on the knuckles for excluding something than having to pay out for something i cant verify has certification.

The minute you grid tie or fit a change over or connect that lighting system into the "electrical installation" in any form you have to include it.

Same with generators...to many electricians are bullied into connecting V-O-V generators (illegal to hard wire to your house) ...why you never ever hard wire a V-O-V generator to the house wiring...rather fit a plug ...with a sign which state a V-O-V generator cannot be connected to the plug and you add a note to your invoice which clearly states the same...it then becomes the owners responsibility...he can o what ever he wishes.

I have had many a customer buy a cheap generator then try unload the responsibility onto me ...you can tell them until you are blue in the face ...they just want the generator connected...just make sure you are a member of the CYA club.

[Derlyn]

I have a good attorney. By certifying that an installation is reasonably safe is in no way a guarantee that the installation is fire proof.

Been through that before.

2 years after a COC was issued by yours truly, the house burn't down as a result of an "electrical" fault.

Nobody could prove that the electrical installation was faulty. I know it wasn't.

Eventually it came out. A faulty appliance caused the fire.

Anyway, crux of the matter is that nobody, but nobody, irrespective of how "good" the installation is, can guarantee that the house wont burn down as a result of an electrical fault. As long as we take the necessary precautions in order to minimize the chances of that happening, I think one is quite safe.

Peace, my brother.

[ians]

I spoke to someone (involved in training etc for this stuff) about this subject...as it is becoming common practice and should be understood by all...including myself.

Apparently ...there are new regulations for such an installation and it is advisable to issue a separate COC for that separate installation...as i thought...unless the installation is somehow linked using a changeover switch...grid tied etc.

This is a subject which requires more attention and would advise that it be discussed in more detail...to a point that a letter be sent to the right people to query it...and the facts be shared..would be greatly appreciated.

[GCE]

Hi

Been watching and reading the thread and decided it is time to stir the pot.

There was no contradictory statements made - One was based on regulations and the other based on an opinion , I say while stirring the pot.

There are no new regulations out with regards to alternative supplies and SANS 10142-1 still applies to all electrical installations as defined by OHSA

I have pasted the index of SANS 10142-1 7.12 - which clearly shows the inclusion of PV off grid and is referenced too through out the code ,

You have to issue a COC for electrical installation work and the definition of electrical installation work clearly allows for off grid systems to be included in the COC.
There is a point of control as per definition on a stand alone off grid system.

If a farm in the middle of nowhere is supplied with an Alternative supply ( pv , generator etc ) he still has to have a coc and if one of his workers are killed through electrocution DOL will be all over him for manslaughter and they will pass the buck to you as the installer for not issuing the COC and adhering to the laws of the country.

Does not change when you come into town.

The definitions generally clear up so called grey areas , and the definition of supplier makes the electrical contractor or owner of the PV system/generator a supplier.

A previous discussion on the forum also bears relevance - https://www.theforumsa.co.za/forums/...290#post147290

3.33
electrical installation
machinery, in or on any premises, that is used for the transmission of
electrical energy from a point of control (see 3.56) to a point of
consumption (see 3.55) anywhere on the premises, including any article
that forms part of such an installation, irrespective of whether or not it is part
of the electrical circuit, but excluding
a) any machinery of the supplier that is related to the supply of electricity on
the premises,
b) any machinery that is used for the transmission of electricity of which the
voltage does not exceed 50 V, where such electricity is not derived from
the main supply of a supplier, and
c) any machinery that transmits electrical energy in telecommunication,
television or radio circuits
3.56
point of control
point at which a consumer can, on or in any premises, switch off the
electrical installation from the electricity supplied from the point of supply


7.12 Alternative supplies .................................................. .............. 244
7.12.1 General .................................................. .................. 244
7.12.2 Requirements for alternative sources of supply ....... 245
7.12.3 Earthing requirements and earth leakage
protection .................................................. ............... 246
7.12.4 Additional requirements for installations that
incorporate electrical supply derived from static
inverters used with uninterruptible power supply
(UPS) equipment and photovoltaic installations
off-grid or on-grid .................................................. ... 247
7.12.5 Protection against overcurrent ................................. 248
7.12.6 Additional requirements for installations where
the alternate supply system
provides a supply as a switched alternative to
the main supply (standby systems and
UPS systems that incorporate bypass switching) .... 249
7.12.7 Additional requirements for photovoltaic (PV)
and similar installations that provide a supply as
an alternative to the main supply ............................. 249

[ians]

aaaah man...now i have to go read the new SABS 10142-1 I bought because my mate was leaving for the UK...so i got it at a bargain price ...i threw it in file 13 with other junk...lucky for me he did a seminar so there are pile of notes and a booklet which was issued as part of the seminar.

I decided to scratch for it and opened it ...the very first page in the booklet is ... Clause 7:12 sans 10142-1:2012 edition 1.8

7.2 Alternating supplies (including low voltage generating sets, gas combustion, wind generation, photovoltaic (PV) installtions ,etc.

[ians]

Firstly my apologies...the new PV regulations are still a draft and not been released yet ...something to look forward to.

Just to update my opinion...after doing some homework...personally i would issue a COC for the electrical installation and either issue a completely separate COC for the solar installation...or attached a separate document with all the details with regards to the solar installation to your COC ...as it was pointed out to me during a conversation...at the end of the day it is all about creating a safer environment...as long as you have taken the necessary steps as per section 4 of the COC and checked that the components have been correctly selected and installed correctly ...what more can you do.

The reason i would do it like that...The COC allows for a main DB and sub DBS ...it doesnt have provision for a 2 main DB's ...unless there is a later version that i am not aware of...i dont believe the solar system (if like my system...completely separate from the eskom supply) can be regarded as a sub DB.

[Derlyn]

Thank you for the responses.

I'm sure I did the correct thing by including those lights with the necessary notes of where they are supplied from and that they are 12 volt.

So glad that I joined this forum.

These discussions benefit all who strive to do things correctly but sometimes find themselves in a position of uncertainty, as I was.

This old toppie is still learning something new everyday.

[ians]

I know the feeling i have been in this industry for almost 40 years and literally everyday i am learning something new...just when i think i have caught up...for example load shedding started back in 2008 ...from installing 1 generator in 10 years to suddenly installing 10 in a month...with very little knowledge or guidance back then we had to learn quick and make it safe...some of my projects where visited...pics where taken and drawing where used as examples...now we have a book full of regs to guide us and learn from....just when you think you have caught up again PV installations become the new hit in town and have to learn again.

I have to say...i have never really taken much interest in PV rules until this thread was started...I installed my solar panel... batteries and lights in my house about 5 years ago thinking it is a 12 volt system not linked to the electrical installation in any way...it still works...however would it pass a coc...not sure and the reason i will go into in more details when i have more time.

solar panel ...does it have any certification...is it installed in the correct manner and location?
the cable size and length from the panel to the control unit/charger...how far is the control panel from the solar units ...is it suitable for the application and volt drop...did i use the correct type of wire?
The control box...is it certified...SABS...IEC...CE or the like?
overload protection...are the fuses correctly sized for the low voltage and installed in the right location?
and many more as per section 4 of the COC?

We havent even got to the output yet and i can already see a few issues with my installation at home .

When i installed the system 5 maybe 6 years ago...i think the regs were still in draft....so does my installation have to comply...considering the installation before a certain time dont need to comply with new regs...mmm... interesting lets hear what the experts have to say.

[paulsabatier]

With round 71X of load shedding it has come to the stage where the need for ceiling mounted 12 Volt LED 3 Watt downlights in our home has dawned.
Has SANS 0142 matured to be consise in the requirements?

[GCE]

Hi

Sans has always been concise with regards to 12v alternative supplies - It was people that create the confusion