Electrical nightmares

[ians]

actually lets do talk about it... so I bump my car.

Go to the panel beater for a quote... R55000.00 to replace the back door and the window.

The assessor comes out to check the tyres and license disc is up to date (because if your tyres are worn or there is something not road worthy ...the claim is no longer entertained ...so a tip for you... make sure your tyres are good before an assessor arrives) ... scratches out some of the parts on the list...and the cost is now down to R30 000 ...a R25000 reduction in the price... sounds a bit like an electrician

I make arrangements to drop off the vehicle for repairs and arrange that the vehicle will be ready for collection in 3 days.

What i didnt know is the panel shop doesnt supply the goods anymore... the insurance company now supplies the parts...so they loose out on the markup...and dont blame them for throwing their hands in the air when the parts are not delivered on time.

The panel beater is not involved in the replacement of the window... the insurance company makes a plan to get his "connection" to fit the window...so arrangements are made and confirmed via sms that they will be at the panel shop at 8 am on Friday morning.

2.30 pm friday afternoon autoboys arrive... now the vehicle could not be completed in the time frame discussed and we have to sit and wait for 2 hours before the vehicle can be used ...to make matters even worse the window is not fitted right.

To add to the wound the smash and grab is contracted out to another company...so now we have to make arrangements to get the vehicle back to the panel shop... we have to get autoboys to do their job right this time (by the way this is the 3 rd bad experience i have had out of 3 windows they have fitted) next time i pay the excess and get PG glass to do the job right first time... as the did with the first windscreen i had replaced...i am yet to experience a problem with PG glass... you may pay a little more but at the end of the day it certainly seems you get what you pay for... PG glass is more expensive but worth the excess.

The lesson i learnt from this experience... you no longer make arrangements with the panel shop to sort out your vehicle... you get a quote from the panel shop to just do the spray painting and the rest is done by the insurance companies... supplying goods... fitting windows...smash and grab etc etc etc.

[Dave A]

I would bear in mind Carte Blanche producers do the final edits, not the folk interviewed. The potential for errors in continuity, especially highly technical ones, as a result of editing is extremely high.

One problem is the visual is not always concurrent with the audio.
The common example is that quick shot of the interviewer nodding her head might not have actually been taken at the same time as the audio which is of the interviewee making a point (that the interviewer happens to agree with).
Similarly, a close-up of a device might not align with what the audio is saying, particularly if it wasn't originally taken at the same time as the audio...
And the content most often is not shot in the same order as it is finally presented.

It's a show. The producers are trying to convey a message. And there are all kinds of manipulations done to achieve "reality".

[Derlyn]

another fact:



If it resets and stays up then switch on the main switch only ...if it trips as you do this ...there is a good chance you have what we call a neutral fault (what they did in the video ) you then have to disconnect all the neutral conductors from the earth leakage neutral bar.

I disagree with the above statement.

Even with a neutral fault, the earth leakage relay will not trip with the load circuit breakers turned off.

The earth leakage detects an imbalance in current between the live and neutral and cannot do this without a load present.

However

If it trips when switching on the main switch only, then the chances are 100% that the earth leakage is faulty.


Off the original topic, I know, but had to respond.

Cheers and peace out
Derek

[ELECT 1]

Well in Cape Town we also have our share of crooks.
There is no fast answer to how you can overcome this problem.
You cant take everyone as crooks, but i always say to the customer get recommendations and
If possible for another call out fee, get a second opinion.

Another issue i have is the stupid (in My personal opinion the COC form.) There should be less stuff and forms to fill in, like one page.

[ians]

I would bear in mind Carte Blanche producers do the final edits, not the folk interviewed. The potential for errors in continuity, especially highly technical ones, as a result of editing is extremely high.

One problem is the visual is not always concurrent with the audio.
The common example is that quick shot of the interviewer nodding her head might not have actually been taken at the same time as the audio which is of the interviewee making a point (that the interviewer happens to agree with).
Similarly, a close-up of a device might not align with what the audio is saying, particularly if it wasn't originally taken at the same time as the audio...
And the content most often is not shot in the same order as it is finally presented.

It's a show. The producers are trying to convey a message. And there are all kinds of manipulations done to achieve "reality".

If you are going to destroy a persons income... you should also be liable for your mistakes.

[ians]

I disagree with the above statement.

Even with a neutral fault, the earth leakage relay will not trip with the load circuit breakers turned off.

The earth leakage detects an imbalance in current between the live and neutral and cannot do this without a load present.

However

If it trips when switching on the main switch only, then the chances are 100% that the earth leakage is faulty.


Off the original topic, I know, but had to respond.

Cheers and peace out
Derek

OK... interesting response ...that fault that they created in the video was a neutral fault and these was nothing wrong with the e/l unit... that was the point.

I can only assume that you had removed the neutral conductor and maybe even the live conductor from the bottom of the "faulty" earth leakage and tried to reset by pushing the lever to the bottom and then up ...before billing the customer for a new e/l unit... other wise you could sit with a small challenge trying to explain to the customer why the new e/l unit is tripping.

[ians]

Another issue i have is the stupid (in My personal opinion the COC form.) There should be less stuff and forms to fill in, like one page.

I wouldnt say stupid... but rather ...just badly designed ...there is really no one piece of paper that fits all.

From the COC's i have encountered ...most inspectors dont even know or choose not to fill the form out correctly...it is just tooo vague and open for abuse.

Every single electrical inspector should be on a data base... which records every COC document completed by every inspector ...updated every single day.

Random tests should be carried out to verify that the inspector is doing the test correctly.

There should be a point system requires the inspector complete refresher courses as new regs come out.

Every 12 months the inspectors should be interviewed and tested at his level ...ie if you are a master electrician ...the random questions asked should cover every aspect of the electrical industry... the inspector should provide all the documentation required to keep up to date wit hall the regs at the time of the interview.

I know dream on.

[Blurock]

I've read some of the opinions on this thread and eventually watched the CB clip myself. It appears that a complaint from a customer was followed up and then the Carte Blance team ran into the same crook that they exposed 10 years prior. The guy's reaction and verbal abuse was shocking and all the evidence indicates that he is a crook, so why try to defend him?

We moan about a corrupt and thieving government, but I can tell you that there is so much more happening in our commercial world. Who offers the bribes to government? The Guptas were not the only ones; KPMG, McKinsey, Bank of Baroda, Thales, Steinhoff, Bosassa, Tongaat Hulett, ATM, were all involved in some form of corruption. The list goes on and on. Analysts believe that South African corporate executives are “the biggest culprits of economic crimes on earth”. The small crooks are not even reported!

[ians]

I've read some of the opinions on this thread and eventually watched the CB clip myself. It appears that a complaint from a customer was followed up and then the Carte Blance team ran into the same crook that they exposed 10 years prior. The guy's reaction and verbal abuse was shocking and all the evidence indicates that he is a crook, so why try to defend him?

!

"nobody is denying the fact that Mark Levy could be a crook...but if you going to target one individual ...make sure you get your facts right and lay the facts out in a manner in which people can identify the problems ...not this whishy washy flash clips."

[ians]

I disagree with the above statement.

Even with a neutral fault, the earth leakage relay will not trip with the load circuit breakers turned off.

The earth leakage detects an imbalance in current between the live and neutral and cannot do this without a load present.

However

If it trips when switching on the main switch only, then the chances are 100% that the earth leakage is faulty.


Off the original topic, I know, but had to respond.

Cheers and peace out
Derek

This response tells me that this electrician would have given the same answer during the interview... is this person also a crook?

[AndyD]

The guy is a predatory opportunist at best and possibly a criminal. He gives the industry a bad name.

On the flip side who the hell are the ECA to dictate contractors mark-up? That pisses me off almost as much as the cowboy ripping people off using scare tactics.

The mark-up on an item that's installed has to cover many expenses such as admin, money tied up in stock-holding or driving to the wholesalers plus the possible future costs involved in carrying any warranty claims amongst other things. Just last week I had to get clearance to close off a public road and erect 6 stories of scaffold to replace an isolator switch on the side of a building that had set on fire. The cost of the isolator was around R1700.00 but if that item has a warranty claim in the next 12 months, yes the supplier will cover the switch itself but the cost of the rigging alone to replace it will be R16k which I'll be liable for, not mention the road closure costs. I can assure you that I charged considerably more than the ECA recommended 20% mark-up and the ethics audit I mentally conducted on myself after invoicing the job came up squeaky clean.

[Dave A]

On the flip side who the hell are the ECA to dictate contractors mark-up?

I've asked the KZN Regional Director about this Friday last week.

Dear Shantonette,

A story flighted last week by Carte Blanche has been drawn to my attention. If you are not familiar with it, the story can be viewed here:

https://m-net.dstv.com/show/carte-blanche/videos/electrical-nightmares/video

The story raises many causes for concern. However, it is one statement in particular made in the video that is the cause of my enquiry to you here.

At just after 4 minutes into the video, the statement is made that “the ECA SA recommends no more than a 20% mark-up on parts.”

Please confirm that this is actual ECA SA policy, or is it “just” someone’s opinion?
Should this indeed be ECA SA official policy, I would also be interested in the history as to how this policy came about, how the figure was arrived at, and the extent to which members are supposed to abide by this determination.

Warm regards

The response I received was:

Am not aware of a policy, it could be someone’s opinion, not sure who you might think it is if you have a name that comes to mind perhaps I could approach them and ask?

I'll ask her to check with all the RDs and the Contractual Committee.

[Dave A]

Even with a neutral fault, the earth leakage relay will not trip with the load circuit breakers turned off.

The earth leakage detects an imbalance in current between the live and neutral and cannot do this without a load present.

However

If it trips when switching on the main switch only, then the chances are 100% that the earth leakage is faulty.

Unfortunately my experience does not support this.

I was taking the calls to our standby service line over our end-of-year shutdown this year. The first step is to try to talk the client through their problem.

In one of those calls, the earth leakage unit was tripping with just the main switch on (the circuit breakers on all circuits were down). Obviously a "neutral fault" (as already mentioned by Ian) or perhaps a faulty earth leakage unit.
Checked with the client that all isolators were down too. Confirmed.
Asked the client to remove all plugs plugged into socket outlets.
The client (who was pretty sharp actually) said he had already switched off all socket outlets at their respective switches.
I pointed out that with a neutral-earth fault, that doesn't solve the problem. The plug must be removed.

He unplugged his brand new weed-eater (which he actually immediately identified as his most likely suspect), and problem solved.

Given the usual voltage difference between neutral and earth present in a typical installation, obviously there is a current flow on the neutral with a neutral-earth fault. If the volt difference and fault resistance values are in the right ranges, it seems that is enough to trip (at least some types of) earth leakage units even when there is no current through the live conductor.

[Derlyn]

Unfortunately my experience does not support this.

I was taking the calls to our standby service line over our end-of-year shutdown this year. The first step is to try to talk the client through their problem.

In one of those calls, the earth leakage unit was tripping with just the main switch on (the circuit breakers on all circuits were down). Obviously a "neutral fault" (as already mentioned by Ian) or perhaps a faulty earth leakage unit.
Checked with the client that all isolators were down too. Confirmed.
Asked the client to remove all plugs plugged into socket outlets.
The client (who was pretty sharp actually) said he had already switched off all socket outlets at their respective switches.
I pointed out that with a neutral-earth fault, that doesn't solve the problem. The plug must be removed.

He unplugged his brand new weed-eater (which he actually immediately identified as his most likely suspect), and problem solved.

Given the usual voltage difference between neutral and earth present in a typical installation, obviously there is a current flow on the neutral with a neutral-earth fault. If the volt difference and fault resistance values are in the right ranges, it seems that is enough to trip (at least some types of) earth leakage units even when there is no current through the live conductor.

Hi Dave

1. I have never in my 41 year career as electrician come across an earth leakage tripping as a result of an earthed neutral without any current through the live.

2. Something just doesn't add up with the weed eater scenario. I have yet to see a weed eater that's supplied with a 3 core lead. Every one that I've seen comes with a 2 core lead and no earth. Maybe there are, but I have yet to see one.

Cheers and peace out ... Derek

[Dave A]

Derek, regardless of the device (call it a kettle or hotplate if it makes you feel better) - the guy reported he unplugged the appliance, and the fault cleared.

Thinking about it - Quite a few weed-eaters seem to come with the Schuko plug. Perhaps it was a misbehaving Shuko to 164-1 adaptor (I have had that before).

A dead short on as little as 0.2 volts shouldn't have any trouble exceeding 30 mA.