Coc for new electrical installation

[Lourie1251]

Hi.I have a question? I completed a new house installation and i refused to give a coc due to the final payment not been paid. No problems with quality etc. Just a problem owner.
While i was a away they called in a local electrical contractor and he submitted a coc, is this allowed and what are my responsibilities regarding this property? Regsrds

[SeanM]

Greetings

With regards to the COC being issue for a new installation this electrician is very brave as he was not involved in the work from the start although they are happy to sign off that everything is compliant ( cables in walls and so forth)

As for your responsibility, nil.

The person who signed of the COC takes this responsibility.

The outstanding payment is unfortunate.

Kind Regards
Sean

[Dave A]

Another electrical contractor can only issue a regulation 9.2.b certificate (for an existing installation). A new house installation requires a 9.2.a certificate and a certificate of occupation should not be given without it.

I probably should also point out that DoL does not approve of the withholding of the CoC due to non-payment. They see payment as a separate issue to compliance. If the client complains to the DoL and your only ground for withholding the certificate is non-payment, it is quite possible you will be instructed to issue the CoC, or DoL will give permission for another electrician to issue a 9.2.a certificate.

If the other electrician issued a 9.2.a certificate, lay a complaint with DoL.

[Lindley]

Another electrical contractor can only issue a regulation 9.2.b certificate (for an existing installation). A new house installation requires a 9.2.a certificate and a certificate of occupation should not be given without it.

I probably should also point out that DoL does not approve of the withholding of the CoC due to non-payment. They see payment as a separate issue to compliance. If the client complains to the DoL and your only ground for withholding the certificate is non-payment, it is quite possible you will be instructed to issue the CoC, or DoL will give permission for another electrician to issue a 9.2.a certificate.

If the other electrician issued a 9.2.a certificate, lay a complaint with DoL.

Hi Dave A but in future how does one protect yourself in such a situation?

[ians]

Setup a better payment method.

I thought joining the ECA many years ago would assist collecting money ... never got one payment using the ECA ... lots of paper work though ... lawyers were just too expensive for claims under R100k ... I joined a few motor bike clubs ... debt collecting wasnt a problem ... until someone got shot.

In this day and age ... you need to go electronic and each team must have a device so that the customer can pay before leaving site ... the old days of invoicing and waiting for money is as outdated as fax machines and cheques.

The reality ... times are changing ... vehciles should have tracking devices ... internal cctv with voice recording ... a dahscam ... a tablet with service sheets and an electronic payment method.

[Derlyn]

Lindley

Bottom line. Your contract must be structured in such a way that the final payment is a miniscual amount. Make it 5% like I do.

That way, by the time you've completed the project, you have money in the bank.
If the prospective client doesn't agree with YOUR contract to begin with, then walk away and move onto the next one.

I don't know how much moola is involved with your case, but don't dwell on it too long.
Rather just write it in your little black book and move on.

What you have experienced has happened to most of us. Learn from it and make sure that should something similar happen to you in the future, you can walk away knowing that you still made money on the job. ( that's what it's all about, isn't it ? )

From an old toppie. Use it, don't use it.

Peace out ... Derek

[ians]

By the way ... if you record a meeting ... make sure you get all the customers details recorded before you start the recording ... not that it helps with payments ... I find the F%^&ers who dont pay are generally the same ones who tend not to pay in general.

What I do with new customers ... ask around at the wholesalers ... they get stung just as badly as we do ... and quick to tell you it the customer is a bad idea ... so dont forget to spread the word.

[Lindley]

Derlyn

Tips and guidance taken,so bad for contractors to go thru such a problem..Cruel world we live in.

[Dave A]

I find the F%^&ers who dont pay are generally the same ones who tend not to pay in general.

This be true.

As many have indicated above, you need to have systems in place that reduce the risk of being undone by bad payers. Learn from each experience and tweak your system. And then stick to the rules of your system.

[Madmal]

Hi Gents

I agree and feel for your situation of non payments.

Now not being an electrician myself, but having had work done I am asking for your advice.

The electrician that did the work at my house refuses to issue a COC for the following reason that he wants me to pay him for work he did not do and I refuse to pay for work that was not done.

I paid him him for the work done including the cost of the COC that was supposed to be issued.

Am I wrong to withhold monies for the work that he did not do?
And what is my recourse?

[Isetech]

It never that simple, the fact that you talking about work not done but require a COC, could mean that the work not done is included in the COC, hence the reason he has not issued you the COC. You need to explain a little better.

To give you an idea, I went to a house to do a test report, repairs then issued a COC, 2 months later I got a call form a lawyer who informed me that parts of the installtion that I had signed off was non compliant.

From that statement I would be the bad electrician woh issues COC's without making everything compliant, yes I was at fault.

Why would a person like me issue a non complaint COC, simple I got caught by the electrical contractor who was living in the house. While doing the test report I identified all the non compliant parts, made a list, part of the list was all the security lights around the building wired in twin flex. When I got the call from the lawyer, I knew straight away what had happened. The electrical contractor indicated that all the security lights and a few other non compliant wires hanging on the building belonged to him, he indicated that he was going to take all the lights and wiring with him when he left. Both times I returned to site and replaced all the wiring at my cost.

So tell us the whole story, why he is not issuing the COC and why you not paying, or better still ask him to respond to this post and tell his side of the story.

Hi Gents

I agree and feel for your situation of non payments.

Now not being an electrician myself, but having had work done I am asking for your advice.

The electrician that did the work at my house refuses to issue a COC for the following reason that he wants me to pay him for work he did not do and I refuse to pay for work that was not done.

I paid him him for the work done including the cost of the COC that was supposed to be issued.

Am I wrong to withhold monies for the work that he did not do?
And what is my recourse?

[skatingsparks]

Had a recent thing with a solar install. 8 million Rand house. Did a few basic tests before starting and looked pretty good. Did solar install, 2 days (long days) for inverter, batteries and panels. Came to do CoC. From then the kak started. The circuit charts were just made up, nothing matched. Took an age to find everything (4 DB boards) Then started testing... Lots of little things. We spent another 2 days just fixing bits and pieces and then just said - enough.

Our inverter install - happy to sign off - 100% sure any AIA inspector or ECA inspector would be happy with it. Rest of his house - no. Now the client has paid, so no problem there, but I can't sign the CoC as his house still has problems. I'm informed I'm supposed to sign off the whole house if there is no existing CoC. I still don't know how the DOL want us to MAKE the client pay for non compliant items. We can only advise. Where do electricians stand in these cases.
Is it my job to test and inspect a VERY big 6 bedroom, 7 bathroom, 2 office, man cave etc.... house before we do a small job?
No, not realistic. Am I in the clear if I just sign of my work and comment on what is not covered (including noting that I advised the client of non compliant issues).
If not - then this system can not work.

We have to be able to do a COC to cover OUR work. We can not make a client do have a CoC on a whole house if they don't want to pay?

Its a stupid system. We get into kak for not issuing a CoC (because its just not compliant) and we get in Kak if we issue a dodgey one.

Also we a problem recently when I got called back to a job I did. They were selling the place and there was no incoming earth on a TN-S when the other electrician was testing. Everything else was 100%. It was good reading when I was there when I tested, fortunately had photos of the reading from way back (just lucky I didn't have a pen on me at the time so took pics of readings before writing them down).

If there was a problem at that place who would get the blame. Not my fault the municipality did a poor job on a cable joint but sure I would get the blame if someone got shocked.

[Thys LOW Elektries]

Another question about the COC
If it was new work a coc how can a contractor issue a coc for work not done under his general control and supervision?

[Isetech]

Another regulation that you just have to smile when people bring it up

You could also ask the question, then how do you issue a COC for the sale of a property?

If it was new work a coc how can a contractor issue a coc for work not done under his general control and supervision?

[Madmal]

It never that simple, the fact that you talking about work not done but require a COC, could mean that the work not done is included in the COC, hence the reason he has not issued you the COC. You need to explain a little better.

To give you an idea, I went to a house to do a test report, repairs then issued a COC, 2 months later I got a call form a lawyer who informed me that parts of the installtion that I had signed off was non compliant.

From that statement I would be the bad electrician woh issues COC's without making everything compliant, yes I was at fault.

Why would a person like me issue a non complaint COC, simple I got caught by the electrical contractor who was living in the house. While doing the test report I identified all the non compliant parts, made a list, part of the list was all the security lights around the building wired in twin flex. When I got the call from the lawyer, I knew straight away what had happened. The electrical contractor indicated that all the security lights and a few other non compliant wires hanging on the building belonged to him, he indicated that he was going to take all the lights and wiring with him when he left. Both times I returned to site and replaced all the wiring at my cost.

So tell us the whole story, why he is not issuing the COC and why you not paying, or better still ask him to respond to this post and tell his side of the story.

Hi Isetech

Thank you for your response. Let me elaborate.

As per the invoice the new instillations relate to:
1: The addition of 2 light switches and 4 power sockets to the bathroom and gym.
2: Adding 2 power points in the living and sitting rooms.
3: Changing of light switches and power sockets around the house.
4: Removal of redundant wires in the ceiling.
5: Inspecting the electrical work of the workshop which is an out building.
6: Issuing of COC for the work of new lights and power sockets. (1,2)

Now I have paid in full for points 1,2,3 and 6
Points 4 and 5 is the work that was not done. and this is the payment I have withheld.

Then recently it was discovered that point 1 is drawing its power directly from the geyser power supply. I have not yet even raised this as an issue but I did notify the electrician of this.

I have tried to speak to the electrician, who "agreed" to put our heads together to sort this out. However it has become apparent that the electrician has no interest in resolving this matter.