To ZA-plug or not

[Thys LOW Elektries]

Good Day
I don't have a sans edition 3 YET but the confusion on the ZA plug continue to rule the day

From what I understand from the grapevine is that all new sockets installed after May must make provision for a ZA plug

My question is what about workshops and single socket outlets 4x2 size

Greetings
Thys Fourie

[Dylboy]

Hello

from my understanding is that on a new circuit, eg. Renovation or addition. At least one socket outlet within that new circuit must be the new euro ZA socket thing. As for the 2x4 I will dig deeper as currently studying to do P2 as passed P1 on the installation rules. If plausible and a possible solution, if you are doing a renovation, find a 4x4 on the same circuit and make it the euro ZA socket.

Thinking further as I type, if it is a few outlets, making one of the outlets the Euro socket and then then the rest the 3-prong.

One of the more esteemed and time served gents may be able to add more light and correct me if wrong but I do hope I have been of some help

Have a great evening.

Cheers
Dyl.



Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk

[GCE]

Hi

The ZA plug , or commonly referred to as Euro, was needed at each socket outlet point in ED2 from Jan 2018.

ED2 Reg pasted below - Sans 164-2 is the Euro and Sans 164-1 is what we know as normal socket

Sans 10142-1 Ed2
6.15.1.1.1 Except where otherwise specified in this part of SANS 10142,
single-phase socket-outlets for general use (see also 6.14.1.4) shall
a) be of the two-pole and earthing contact type,
b) comply with SANS 164-0,
c) effective from January 2018 all socket-outlet points for new electrical
installations shall include at least one socket-outlet complying with the
dimensions of SANS 164-2. Socket-outlets points may also include
socket-outlets complying with the dimentions of SANS 164-1.


In Ed3 they changed the requirement slightly - The regulation is the same but the note allows sockets side by side on the same circuit to be one outlet point.This helped on powerskirting and other odd places in an inductrial or commercial set up.
It is not often in a domestic set up that you would have sockets side by side .

Sans 10142-1 ED3
6.15.1.1.1 Except where otherwise specified in this part of SANS 10142,
single-phase socket-outlets for general use (see also 6.14.1.4) shall
a) be of the two-pole and earthing contact type,
b) comply with SANS 164-0 and
c) for new electrical installations each socket-outlet point shall include at least
one socket-outlet complying with the dimensions of SANS 164-2. Socketoutlet
points may also include socket-outlets complying with the
dimensions of SANS 164-1 in addition to SANS 164-2 socket-outlet.
NOTE Where socket-outlets are installed on the same circuit side by side, this
configuration could be considered one outlet point.

The only people causing the confusion are electrical contractors who do not read the regulations.
The regulations refer to socket outlet POINTS not CIRCUIT
Since Jan 2018 every socket installed should have had a Euro.
From Jan 2018 the demand for " normal " double sockets should have been close to zero.
You get the format in 4x2 if you exclude the switch- It is not a requirement to have a switch on a socket outlet.

[ians]

If you replace a double socket outlet ... do you have to replace it with the new type socket ?

If all new installations must have a ZA socket ... why are double sockets still avaialbe to buy?

I have just installed 17 Double socket outlets in my kitchen ... I will be replacing one with a euro type for charging my phone (in fact it will be one with 3 euro plugs ... to charge the phone ... the tablet and the garmin device) ... I dont has a use for 17 euro sockets in my kitchen ... every device in my kitchen comes standard with a 15 amp socket outlet ... I cant see myself cutting off 15 amp sockets to install 2 pin plug tops

Just imagine my toaster ... washing machine ... tumble drier ... kettle ... microwave ... fridge ... stove ... coffee machine etc with 2 pin plug tops ... I am going to say it again ... of all the dumb regulations over the years ... this one gets the cream and cherry on top.

who ever feels I am being unreasonable ... please free to supply the 2 pin plug tops and the cost for an electrician to come replace them on all my appliances ... would you really be that stupid and run your tumble drier off one of these dodgey 2 pin plug tops for sale ... even the new 15 amp plug tops are only rated to 3 amps (if you look carefully at the hollow ones).

Behind the TV ... well that is another story ... I would need to install 15 outlets to accomodate all the 2 pins for the TV ... DVR ... Speaker sytem ... router ... etc etc.

Feel free to educate me on why it is a safety issue ... extender plugs come with both thermal overload and surge protection ... I dont see surge protection or thermal protection on these 2 pin ZA plugs?

[GCE]

If you replace a double socket outlet ... do you have to replace it with the new type socket ?

It has been a grey area in my eyes but the general acceptance has been you can replace in an existing installation like for like

If all new installations must have a ZA socket ... why are double sockets still avaialbe to buy?

Supply and demand - as long as people are buying them they will manufacture them - They are not illegal , you just cannot issue a COC if you do a new installation and if you cant issue a COC then the work complete is basically deemed illegal

I have just installed 17 Double socket outlets in my kitchen ... I will be replacing one with a euro type for charging my phone (in fact it will be one with 3 euro plugs ... to charge the phone ... the tablet and the garmin device) ... I dont has a use for 17 euro sockets in my kitchen ... every device in my kitchen comes standard with a 15 amp socket outlet ... I cant see myself cutting off 15 amp sockets to install 2 pin plug tops

Just imagine my toaster ... washing machine ... tumble drier ... kettle ... microwave ... fridge ... stove ... coffee machine etc with 2 pin plug tops ... I am going to say it again ... of all the dumb regulations over the years ... this one gets the cream and cherry on top.

The way I understood the plan was that all appliance will start swopping across to the new plug top - Already a fair amount of kitchen appliances are coming with Euro plug tops. We have installed extractor fans that came with euro plug tops

Feel free to educate me on why it is a safety issue ... extender plugs come with both thermal overload and surge protection ... I dont see surge protection or thermal protection on these 2 pin ZA plugs?

The dangerous bit is when people take out the old 16amp socket you can touch the pins while extracting the plug top and kids can get all sorts of bits pushed into the plug openings - the smaller euro pins make it less likely to shove something in and the recessed portion stops fingers from touching the pins on extraction.

It was not an overnight decision and was discussed and debated by all role players within the industry

Before the regulation was adopted it was put out for public comment - Did you lodge objections at that stage ?

[Thys LOW Elektries]

I think after all the debating the biggest problem is misinformation amongst the public,retailers and electricians.

The two pin pin plug is called the euro standard not sure of a better or correct name since it does mot have an earth pin. The Za plug have an earth and fit only one way in a socket. So Mr, Nel cant become something else unless wired wrongly

Greetings

[ians]

"Before the regulation was adopted it was put out for public comment - Did you lodge objections at that stage ?"

Who does it get sent to?

I got a pile of regs out for public review ... for solar panels ... sent to me via email ( which tells me there a new book or amendments coming out soon ... thank goodenss I didnt go buy amendtment 3 ... Just when you thought your solar system was up to date ... best you get the "NEW" amendments.

New appliances with 16 amp 3 pin sockets come standard with a short piece of plastic to protect you from the issue you mentioned ... so that requirement seems a bit of a waste.

Then I am going to tell you that you can still buy the old type socket ... which if it is regarded as dangerous should not be allowed to be sold by legit wholesalers?

Now I am starting with my workshop ... I have 30 double socket oulets to install in the building ... not one of my machines is fitted with a euro plug ... nor a 15 amp plug top ... now what?

I will be installing 25 x shuko ... 5 x 16 amp double socket and 2 euro sockets ... and signing off the COC as safe ... common sense tells me that cutting off 16 amp plug tops and installing a cheap crap euor plug top which is not even brass ...some crap tinned material ... which will not only modify the original state of the equipment ... but also cause the warranty for the equipment to be no longer worht anything ... please feel free to educate this old fool ... I just dont see the logic in fitting 32 euro sockets and cutting all the plug tops off my machines.

Then I plan to install a pile of socket outlets in my storeroom ... there will be 12 euro euro sockets (the one with 6 euro sockets on a 4x4 grid plate ... and 2 x 16 amp socket outlets. The reason for all the euro ...because all my low powered charger have 2 pin plug tops.

Same with my office ther ewill be tons of euro plugs because literally everything in my office has a 2 pin plug top ... only 1 x 16 amp plug top for my alarm test rig ... not forgeting my laptops ... they all have 16 amp plug tops ... and no I dont plan on cutting off the 16 amp 3 pin plug tops ... same thing warranty become useless.

I am yet to buy a double with a euro socket ... anyone know the price comaprison?

[ians]

I think after all the debating the biggest problem is misinformation amongst the public,retailers and electricians.

The two pin pin plug is called the euro standard not sure of a better or correct name since it does mot have an earth pin. The Za plug have an earth and fit only one way in a socket. So Mr, Nel cant become something else unless wired wrongly

Greetings

Yip then there is that issue ... "a standard" .. once you fit the ZA ... euro whatever they are called ... now you stuck with this plug top which only fits into a 3 pin of the same socket

A question which I might follow up on myslef today ... If I go to the local appliance shop ... am I gonna find all the new applicances with hte new ZA/euro plug top? Considering this rule has been in effec tsince 2018 (almost 4 years already) The kettle we bought 2 months ago has a moulded 16 amp 3 pin plug top the mixer has a ushuko plug top ... I am confused ... surely if the industry decides on a standard it should be rolled out across the country for everyone?

Excuse my ignorance but common sense tells me things just dont add up or I am still living in the 80s .

[Justloadit]

The easiest way round this issue, is to have a Euro to 3 pin plug adapter, then the problem is solved.

[ians]

The easiest way round this issue, is to have a Euro to 3 pin plug adapter, then the problem is solved.

[ians]

A question suitable for this regualation ... If I install 3 x 4x4 x 6 ZA socket per grid (18 ZA) randomly placed in the kitchen does it make it sort of legal ... if I have 17 double sockets and 18 Za sockets it should be ok ... they just not mounted on the double socket ... but rather a more suitable location ... like in the middle of the kitchen where I could at least use the sockets ... to charge my phone or use the tin opener.

It seems pointless having them under the counter between the washing machine and tumble drier ... imagine that having to cut off the tumble drier plug top to fit a ZA plug top (there goes your warranty)
just imagine the insurance broker arriving to access the damage to find the cause of the fire was a ZA plug top ... what are the chances your R150 000 claim will be paid out swiftly eeeesih ... and I have seen fire started from real solid brass 16 amp socket outlets ... R200 000 claim rejected because the weather report indicated no lightning on the day of the surge which blew the entire building electronics ( the customer lost a total of over R300 000 in damages caused by a surge ...which took out the electronics in every house on the enitre street)


Considering a lot of input from what it sounds like came from a bunch of reputable electrical members of the electrical industry ... my comment are just rants I am asuming everyone agrees with the regulation?

[ians]

Had a look at all the devices in my kitchen last night.

Mixer - Ushuko
tin opener - 2 pin
phone charger - 2 pin
kettle/toaster/air fryer/microwave/convection oven/dishwasher/coffee machine and every other device has a 16 amp 3 pin socket outlet ... even the stove.

The only plug top with a piece of plastic on the pin ... believe it or not ... the stove.

Heres the thing ... every single socket outlet is used with a clipsal or MES socket should be deemed unsuitable for use ... why because it restricts the switch from being switched off ... the moulded plug are too big ... so I ask myself this question how the F%^&* are these appliances or sockets being supplied in SA with the SANS standards ... do you blame the elctrician because he used clipsal or MES ... or do you blame the appliance supplier.

There was mention that sockets no longer need to be switched ... but in the post ... ther m ention of the new reg because of the safety aspect ... a child could get electricuted with small fingers while trying to remove the socket ... yet a new law is passed creating an even more dangerous ... why ... because in reality you should switch off the socket before you remove the socket ... the reason for this ... the load ... if you try removed/insert a socket while it is under load there are 2 things that happen either there is an arc which creates ahigh resistance on the pin ... and secondaly the more important concern ... the risk of the child being elctricuted to death due to the load on the circuit ( if there is no load the risk is drastically reduced)

The more I think about this reg and other regs the more It concerns me to how much thought actually goes into them.

Like the COC ... maybe maybe they should consult with people actually working in the industry.

How many "hands on" electricians reading this post have ever had a document sent to them for review prior to it being implimented?

I have only ever had 1 document sent to me via email ... and that was a couple of weeks ago ... because I sent in proposed connections for an inverter installation ... the same thing happened when load shedding started ... suddenly there was this massive inrush of generator installtions and boy were there some dodgey installations ... after getting the technical people out to site so that they could see what an installation looked like ... so the regs started improving.

We have enough problems in this industry which require serious attention ... stop wasting time with silly regs like this and focus on the real problems ... the first one should be recording and checking random COC's ... its doesnt help create a bunch regs and nobody give a shyte about them ... knowing nobody is actually going to do anything about it.

If you going to make regs ... at least create a standard across the board and make sure that everyone is accountable for the reg ... not just the suck who does the installation ... the wholesalers ...appliance stores everyone should be accountable for making sure the products sold to the public are up to standard and safe to use.

rant over

[ians]

That was a first ... today I had to buy a pile of double socket outlets ... the shelves are full of normal double socket outlets ... but the brand shneider iconic range ... no stock of double socket oultets ... only the silly ones

What a shame they have discontinued the clipsal S2000 range ... to keep the look I made the mistake of using MES switches and sockets as a replacement ... You can feel the MES is a cheap crap product ... generally I have had any problem until I fitted 2 way switches into the 4x4 grid plates ... then it just went downhill ... the 2 way switches work no problem in the 4x2 grid plates ... It seems the 4x4 grid plate is a dud ... I have even tried a different supplier ... same thing.

Like onesto ... I had my first fail 2 weeks ago ... a 40 amp triple breaker malfunctioned ... it was still in the on position but no continuity top to bottom ... switched in on/off a couple tmes ... hitit twice with a hammer and walla it working again and still working.

[Derlyn]

Like onesto ... I had my first fail 2 weeks ago ... a 40 amp triple breaker malfunctioned ... it was still in the on position but no continuity top to bottom ... switched in on/off a couple tmes ... hitit twice with a hammer and walla it working again and still working.

Glad you still trust it to trip when required to.

How many times have we been called out for geyser problems to find the Onesto breaker faulty.
Replaced with Chint and never go back.

Why Onesto decided to make their switches and plugs with rounded corners, nobody knows.

Firstly, if you use their product on surface boxes it looks, well, ugly. The corners of the square surface box stand out a mile.
Secondly, you cannot replace another brand with an Anesto for the same reason. Their plugs and switches do not cover the paint line.

I avoid Anesto like poison.

Just my personal experiences.

Peace out ... Derek

[ians]

"edit" my apologies ... there is no such thing as MCE socket outlets.