A lighting project gone bad

[ians]

I am an electrical contractor ... from many years of experience I have learnt not to supply light fittings ... no 2 people are the same so trying to choose lights for a customer ... not a good idea ... rather find someone who specialises in lighting.

I search the wild web for a lighting supplier ... one companies keeps popping up ... lots of pretty pictures ... branches all over country and if I recall the company was mentioned on this platform.

So I contact the company and get one of their specialists to come to site and offer advice and supply all the lights as per their recommendation ... the company sent a quote for their recommendation ... the customer accepted the quote and paid in full.

The lights eventually arrived short a few items ... it was time for me to install ... and that where the wheels started falling off ... When I contact the rep ... his response is simple the customer accepted the recommendation ... its not his problem.

Lets start with the water feature - A short piece of IP 67 rated strip light ... just over a meter long supplied with a 24 VDC 250 Watt driver ... WTF ... firstly why 250 W for 1 m long strip light ... secondly why weatherproof if it is being mounted inside a junction box inside the building.

The under counter lights which run around the profile of the counter tops - they supplied lights which dont bend ... now we have to fit clips to try hold the strip from popping off the double sided tape as we attempt to bend the strips to follow the profile of the counter tops ... but heres the kicker ... because the lights have to follow the 90 degree bends ... the warranty once again falls away because the lights are not designed for that type of application ... really ... once again all the power supplies are short 250 mm long with a 2 pin plug top.

The outside step lights - 6 m straight runs supplied with flexible strip lights ... huh and no stock of profiles for the strip ... it doesnt end there ... the lights are supplied with 230 V power supplies with 5 amp plug tops ... I have no idea where they thought we were going to plug in a 5 amp 2 pin ... outside and I am told that if I cut off the plug top or the power supply which has to be mounted in the weather proof junction box ... we loose the warranty on the lights ... so basically every single strip light supplied is not covered by the warranty because the power supply and 2 pin plug top is only 250 mm long

Then we move over the the recess strip lights ... only 12 V ... yet they are 10 m longer than the 24 V strip lights supplied ... something to do with volt drop ... with only 50 watt drivers ... huh ... but that not all ... we fit all the aluminum profiles ... and try fit the covers ... well thats when my fuse blew ... the profiles supplied were from 2 different suppliers ... so the covers dont fit ... we had to remove all the profiles ... return them to the wholesaler who then supplied the same brand with the covers ... anyone who has installed profiles will know the mess when you remove them ... paint off the walls the works

At this point I get the feeling that this design wasnt very well thought out ... so I contact the supplier and inform them that they might have made a small oooops ... I feel they should either offer a better solution or return all the lights ... I am told there is a 15 % handling fee.

I havent mentioned the companies name because maybe I am being unreasonable.

What do you think.

[Dylboy]

If they designed it then its a kak design so it's on their lap and need to sort it. Just my opinion. There may be some Ts&Cs but I feel if someone is trusted on their speciality and they make an error it is on their account.



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[Justloadit]

So I contact the company and get one of their specialists to come to site and offer advice and supply all the lights as per their recommendation ... the company sent a quote for their recommendation ... the customer accepted the quote and paid in full.

It seems that the company made a commitment when it sent the quote for the recommendation.
I believe the client has full right to demand a full refund, and for labour, as the recommendations did not suite the application.
The company has an insurance policy (professional indemnity or something like that) to cover this type of event.

[adrianh]

They should take all their junk back and pay you for the inconvenience caused by their negligence.

[ians]

Going through the invoice :

Supplied:

1.3 m x 24 V LED strip
Blue outdoor
Clear double sided.
150 W 6.25 amp 24 power supply.

DO you need a 150 W power supply to operate 1.3 m of strip light ... I checked their website for the spec sheet ... 6 W/meter ?

Supplied with a red and black twin flex 150 mm long ... the light is for a water feature ... I would have thought because the rep was on site doing all the measurements ... the strip is in a water feature .. they would have supplied the strip light with at least long enough to reach the first junction box (2 m) ... according to the sales people at the wholesaler ... the lighting company would supply the lights pre wired.

Now that I checked their website ... they only door a 24 V outdoor strip light ... that explains why the shortest run is 24 V and not 12V.

[ians]

It seems that the company made a commitment when it sent the quote for the recommendation.
I believe the client has full right to demand a full refund, and for labour, as the recommendations did not suite the application.
The company has an insurance policy (professional indemnity or something like that) to cover this type of event.

They said we can return all the lights ... and they will refund less the 15 % handling fee.

[ians]

Aluminum profile (2M)
Opal cover

Something to note when purchasing strip lights ... for some really silly reason you cant buy 6 m lengths.

Something to be aware of ... when the aluminum profile is packed ready for delivery ... you will not be able to see the difference ... unless you have experienced this issue.

However once installed ... the cover on the one brand is slightly raised in the middle and a slightly off coloured white and it looks like they have 2 slots at the bottom for joining the pieces to keep them straight.

We only realised the profiles where different once we had completed the installation and started attaching the covers ... so yes we have had to strip everything and return it ... at least the wholesaler has come to the party and replaced all the profiles with a different brand ... just 2 days of my time wasted and all the paint which we tried to cut with a blade while removing it.

[ians]

Today I decided to do what I should have done at the start of this project ... done everything myself.

Something else which I believe is an issue.

The 12V led strip lights.
supplied with 100 watt power supplies.

6.7M of strip light + 4 m for the wire to the junction box where the power supplies will be mounted
6.4M of strip light + 4 m to the junction box.

total of 10.7m @ 12 watt per meter = 128 watt ... a 100 watt 12 V power supply is not going to be big enough.

Total 0f 10.4m @12 watt per meter = 124 watt ... once again 100 watt 12V power supply is not going to be big enough.

I would think 2 x 150 watt 12V power supplies would be supplied?

You would think the lighting company would know all this.

[skatingsparks]

When the run to the LED strip is a few meters (well over a meter) I use 2.5mm rip cord. Voltdrop makes then end of the strip fade/dull compared to the start of the strip. Plus it runs 'warmer'

[Justloadit]

What I am experiencing, is the lack/loss of skill in companies I am dealing with, both as suppliers and customers.

The 'lost generation' has finally arrived, and we are experiencing the consequences of those missing years.

[adrianh]

What I am experiencing, is the lack/loss of skill in companies I am dealing with, both as suppliers and customers.

The 'lost generation' has finally arrived, and we are experiencing the consequences of those missing years.

I find that knowledge is very superficial. It is as if people feel that they can look anything up at any time on the internet. Another thing is that technological advancement kinda causes the loss of the need of deeper understanding. Millions of people can program Arduino (using internet sourced code) to do things yet they don't know the difference between volts and amps. Lets call this the "black box effect" - they can tell you about the inputs and outputs but they don't understand the inner workings of the box - which is the same as modern social media, general media or politics for that matter. They squabble about superficiality yet the important things in their own lives is a mystery to them.

Another thing I find is that lots of people (including public facing staff) will be on Whatsapp or whatever social media platform while you speak to them. You get to the counter and try to have a conversation with a sales person but they are totally engrossed in their own little screen world that they hardly hear you. The little screen robs them of their already limited attention span.

[ians]

I had another lighting specialist have a look at the project (not being a lighting specialist ... I needed a second opinion) ... something interesting popped up ... as skatingsparks mentioned ... volt drop.

I am told that it is not advisable to run a 12 VDC strip light longer then 5m ... you need an amplifier/booster ... what I see here is a combination of both an under spec'd power supply and a booster.

@ over 10 m ... its gone be interesting to see what happens ... but here is the catch ... I am told that because the wiring in some cases is too short and others not long enough ... I have to either cut or extend the cabling ... the warranty falls away ... this was a a question I asked the rep as he cut the first strip to attempt to modify it to fit into the pipe ... he informed me that as soon as he cut the first piece of heat shrink off the strip light ... the warranty for the product he supplied was no longer valid .. eeeeeiiish ... so now I sit with thousands of rands worth of strip lighting being installed with no warranty

All I want this is job to be done tight with the right equipment ... hence why I called the rep to get advise on how we can make it right ... he has decided that he doesnt want to communicate with me anymore ... I then went to the wholesaler who supplied the lights (xxxxxxxx electrical) and explained this fiasco to them ... they replaced all the aluminum profile and cover.

So maybe someone should contact xxxxxxx lighting and ask them to respond to this thread and set the record straight ... I would be interested to hear what they think about all these issue ... maybe I am being unreasonable?

This is why this has got this point ... the strip lights have been supplied and paid for ... but now I am told that mesmerize they dont have stock of "ANY" aluminum profile ... fortunately xxxxxxx had stock of Pioled profile ... so they supplied enough to replace all the profiles for the 12 V strip light (its going to be interesting to hear how we going to resolve the volt drop issue ... or maybe it doesnt apply to xxxxxxxx 12 V strip lights) ... but nobody has the aluminum profile for the 220 V neo flex and I am told the project once again is going to be put on hold for at least 3 weeks AGAIN.

Removed names ... not sure if you are allowed to name on social media anymore ... with all the new laws?

I shouldnt post when I am angry.

[skatingsparks]

What I am experiencing, is the lack/loss of skill in companies I am dealing with, both as suppliers and customers.

The 'lost generation' has finally arrived, and we are experiencing the consequences of those missing years.

Saleman are just there to make a sale, rather than trying to establish an ongoing business relationship and on going sales.

Just sell them something - onto the next one.

Liek teh guys who sell generators. I know, you know and any electrician worth anything its not a good idea to use a ryobi/grip etc generator to bacjk up your house but they sell that. Works, but it ain't right.

[ians]

This is not the same ... we not selling entry level/ DIY cheap cheap product here ... to give you an idea.

The neon flex 230 V power supply ... I am paying R 75.90 ... online you can buy it for R35 including vat.

The ML-TL-220Volt power supply ... I am paying R70.03 ... it looks exactly the same as the one above ... just the part that joins the strip light to the power cable is slightly different.

I cut one of the power supplies open because they advised and charged me for 8 power supplies ... but in reality I only need 2 because the power supply is good for 50 m of 220 volt strip light ... 1 group of lights will require 1 power supply and the other group another power supply .. .that is how I learnt about the AC-DC bridge rectifier.

The more I dig into this fiasco the more I realise how little the rep knows about his job ... to make matter worse he had 2 other reps with him who were being "trained" by him .. they were on site learning tricks of the trade .... eeeeeeiiish.

I wonder if the owner of this company is aware of what is going on ... maybe I should contact the owner and speak to him ... The wholesaler has management involved in this fiasco and trying to assist to fix it ... they were just stuck in the middle because I bought through them ... the lighting company doesnt sell directly to contractors.

A tip ... you can buy a 1000V 4 amp bridge rectifier from places like mantech and electrocomp you a couple of rand ... there is a fuse on the AC (input) side of the rectifier.

[ians]

It doesnt stop ... so I start going through the invoice ... just when I thought it couldnt get any worse ...

220-5050-W/W-8W per meter = R10.00 per meter

220-5050-W/W-8W per meter = R85.10 per meter

ooops ... so is the strip R10 or R85 per meter?