COC with errors

[Isetech]

Before I even waste my time going into details about this COC, let me just say this, a COC with errors is not valid --- period.

Once again, to this day I have a 100 % fail rate at document level, which means that not one COC that has landed on my desk have even got past the document.

The question you have to ask, should licensed tradesmen be allowed to issue a legal document, if they cant even fill out a piece of paper? Just imagine, how many faults I would find if I visit the site

The 100% fail rate includes from one man operations to large organisation, including ECA members (the issues with the ECA member is still not sorted out )

What is the problem with the industry?

Crap training? this would be were I would start looking.

Is it the customers fault, because they are selling and dont want to spend any more that they absolute minimum?

Inspectors being bullied by their employer?

We have a huge problem in this industry, and something should be done about it, as soon as possible.

[Dylboy]

I like this topic haha.

Recently did the unit standards course.

But what I feel it is training not being 100% adequate with regards to real life situations.

And the other is payment or rather the amount being charged.

People are charging way way to little and just signing the paper to get easy cash.

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[Dylboy]

Also we need a major public drive for understanding not only in a CoC but also to make sure the sparky is properly registered and qualified and the User Lessor being responsible thing also needs to be made more prominent in the public

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[Derlyn]

Most coc's are done for either properties that are being sold or banks and insurance companies requiring them for bonds and insurance purposes.

The onus is on those requiring the coc's to ensure that they are valid, however, it's just a box ticking exersize as far as conveyancing is concerned. If it's yellow or if it says compliance certificate on top, then it's ok.

[Alfred M]

This article explains the problem in South Africa concerning coc's
https://m.engineeringnews.co.za/arti...14/rep_id:4433

[Isetech]

The article was written in 2004, we now in 2022.

Van Vuuren made use of the opportunity to lash out at the Department of Labour (DoL), paid by the public to ensure its safety – as he stated – as failing in its task. This statement now poses the question, exactly how much trust can a property buyer place in the current system that produces a CoC for the property he or she is acquiring?

[Isetech]

What blows my mind is the fact that we live in a digital world yet we still issue hand scribbled COC's full of errors (much like my posts )

I had an assessor visit my property last night and we discussed various issues, which included our claim for damage to our property, and past claims. I learnt a lot about how this process works and got a better understanding ( I should have taken the time to do this a long time ago) . In the past I have pointed fingers at the assessor, but the assessor is not at fault, you need to look at the your broker, he is one who sells the policy, if your wall is not covered in the policy, don't blame the assessor, you need to contact your broker and ask why they didnt mention that your building was excluded from the policy.

[Isetech]

We have a new problem in the industry, tinned copper wire not suitable for 500 VAC, sold at 1.5 and 2.5 mm Twin+E. Using an open flame is the quickest way to test the wire, if it glows red, it could be copper, if it melts, it tinned.

[Dylboy]

What does the ECA charge to be a member?
Also I always thought they where our "watch dogs" but it appears not.



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[Isetech]

What does the ECA charge to be a member?
Also I always thought they where our "watch dogs" but it appears not.



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ECA is there to advise and protect the electrical contractor, they are NOT the elctrical industry watchdog. they are there to give customers a false sense on safety, as we are experiencing on a site in Umhlanga. I have reported a member to the ECA and sent them the document (COC), I was told they would sort it out. I am waiting for the customer to return, we are then going to setup a meeting with the customer, the landlord and the AIA and the DOL to start an investigation. the ECA are welcome to join us. We are going to use the old COC sent to the ECA for the meeting as the contractor has still not issued a legal COC.

Lets clear this up, the ECA and ECB or any other House/hand of safety are "NOT" the industry watchdogs. Everyone wants a piece of the pie.

The DOL department of labour is responsible(the watchdog) for electrical industry (from what I understand, last I checked) Please feel free to correct me.

Some other good news for customers, I had a long chat to an assessor a couple weeks back, it seems the rules have changed, that dodgy COC you were issued cannot be held against you if your property is damaged. So there is no longer a need to panic if you find out your COC is not worth the paper it is printed on. When I asked who checks the COC id filled out correctly or if they do random site checks, I was told it is just a box they tick, nobody checks anything, so long as there is a piece of paper that states COC, you all good.

[Alfred M]

ECA is there to advise and protect the electrical contractor, they are NOT the elctrical industry watchdog. they are there to give customers a false sense on safety, as we are experiencing on a site in Umhlanga. I have reported a member to the ECA and sent them the document (COC), I was told they would sort it out. I am waiting for the customer to return, we are then going to setup a meeting with the customer, the landlord and the AIA and the DOL to start an investigation. the ECA are welcome to join us. We are going to use the old COC sent to the ECA for the meeting as the contractor has still not issued a legal COC.

Lets clear this up, the ECA and ECB or any other House/hand of safety are "NOT" the industry watchdogs. Everyone wants a piece of the pie.

The DOL department of labour is responsible(the watchdog) for electrical industry (from what I understand, last I checked) Please feel free to correct me.

Some other good news for customers, I had a long chat to an assessor a couple weeks back, it seems the rules have changed, that dodgy COC you were issued cannot be held against you if your property is damaged. So there is no longer a need to panic if you find out your COC is not worth the paper it is printed on. When I asked who checks the COC id filled out correctly or if they do random site checks, I was told it is just a box they tick, nobody checks anything, so long as there is a piece of paper that states COC, you all good.

I don't agree with your last paragraph. The policing of coc "should be done by DOL" but like every government department in this country it is not happening unless there where loss of life due to illegal electrical connections and even that is becoming a grey area. Look at stats in SA about fatalities compared to 15 years ago. As far as i am aware the owner of the property is responsible for SAFE electrical installations the main purpose for a valid COC is firstly all about user safety and then property damage. Your insurance will be your next headace if your property should be destroyed by fire due to faulty wiring or inadequate switchgear.

Responsibility for electrical installations!!!!

(1) Subject to subregulation (3), the user or lessor of an electrical installation, as the case may be, shall be responsible for the safety, safe use and maintenance of the electrical installation he or she uses or leases.
Certificate of compliance

(1) Subject to the provisions of subregulation (3), every user or lessor of an electrical installation, as the case may be, shall have a valid certificate of compliance for that installation in the form of Annexure 1, which shall be accompanied by a test report in the format approved by the chief inspector, in respect of every such electrical installation
Or am I missing something here?

[Dylboy]

This whole CoC thing needs a revamp and or policing.

How i was tought to do a CoC is different to how I was on the Unit Standards course...

I do think we need a standardised actual course... like maths subject in school, on how to do a CoC and also for P1 and P2, where by a course outline is done that everyone follows.

This P1 and P2 can be self study which opens people up to parrot fashion learning and not actual understanding.

Bascially a 3 month course like an N level to be done and actual course work and outcomes.

That was a lot more standardisation can occur.

Heck in the UK thats how they do it with books and subjects and exams and colleges etc. 2391-52 is their inspection and testing which is bascially CoC and we need to follow that approach in my humble opinion.

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[Isetech]

I don't agree with your last paragraph. The policing of coc "should be done by DOL" but like every government department in this country it is not happening unless there where loss of life due to illegal electrical connections and even that is becoming a grey area. Look at stats in SA about fatalities compared to 15 years ago. As far as i am aware the owner of the property is responsible for SAFE electrical installations the main purpose for a valid COC is firstly all about user safety and then property damage. Your insurance will be your next headace if your property should be destroyed by fire due to faulty wiring or inadequate switchgear.

Responsibility for electrical installations!!!!

(1) Subject to subregulation (3), the user or lessor of an electrical installation, as the case may be, shall be responsible for the safety, safe use and maintenance of the electrical installation he or she uses or leases.
Certificate of compliance

(1) Subject to the provisions of subregulation (3), every user or lessor of an electrical installation, as the case may be, shall have a valid certificate of compliance for that installation in the form of Annexure 1, which shall be accompanied by a test report in the format approved by the chief inspector, in respect of every such electrical installation
Or am I missing something here?

I was referring to insurance claims only, for example a COC I received a week ago, the entire building is burnt to the ground. When I informed the assessor that the COC was not filled out correctly, it had 6 errors, which were crossed out and changed and missing information, making the document invalid. I was told that even though the document was worthless it wouldn't affect the claim. It gets complicated so I am not going to go into details. So this is good news for all those people out there with invalid COC's.

[Firepool]

I was referring to insurance claims only, for example a COC I received a week ago, the entire building is burnt to the ground. When I informed the assessor that the COC was not filled out correctly, it had 6 errors, which were crossed out and changed and missing information, making the document invalid. I was told that even though the document was worthless it wouldn't affect the claim. It gets complicated so I am not going to go into details. So this is good news for all those people out there with invalid COC's.

Maybe the coc was filled in the incorrect way cause that is how they thought/ assume it should be done .The installation is either safe or not and a piece of paper wont change that.
I mean how do you know that everything you fill in is correct if the coc format changes(look at bonding test) and nobody tells you until one day down the line their is a issue.That is just the certficate.There is alot of own interpretation/understanding of a big almost 900 pages long and says things like unless in this case and refer to another sans code which you dont have access to.Even the AIA interpretation of things can be different among their inspectors.

[Isetech]

Maybe the coc was filled in the incorrect way cause that is how they thought/ assume it should be done .The installation is either safe or not and a piece of paper wont change that.
I mean how do you know that everything you fill in is correct if the coc format changes(look at bonding test) and nobody tells you until one day down the line their is a issue.That is just the certficate.There is alot of own interpretation/understanding of a big almost 900 pages long and says things like unless in this case and refer to another sans code which you dont have access to.Even the AIA interpretation of things can be different among their inspectors.

Maybe the industry should sort out all the issue before they make it compulsory to the public, considering the only people loosing are the very people who are suppose to be protected.