Thinking a bit...

[Dylboy]

Hello

Strange one but i do backup power every now and then, small systems DB tied, but I always struggle with space and it's always on the Neutral bar as with the backup need a seperate N bar. Also most DB Boards the Neutral bars are blocked by the Line cable.

So their is a reg that says all circuits must originate from the same DB.

But thinking a bit can I for example take a small 8way DB and install it next to the main DB and then run my neutrals only to that DB. Or even an enclosure and put a N bus in there only.

Basically I want to make more space for the neutrals that is time efficient.

I cant always install a whole new Sub DB. I just want space for Neutrals haha.

Is it legal as then technically not in the same enclosure as per below ?

I feel it's not but worth a ask I reckon.



6.1.4 All the conductors of any circuit shall originate at the same distribution baord

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[Derlyn]

I have done exactly that on a number of occasions.

I don't see a problem because the neutrals do all originate from the same DB as the lives and earths.

The circuits can go through any number of enclosures before reaching their final destination as long as they originate from the same DB.

Lets hear from the other toppies or are they all sleeping already.

BTW, that's exactly what we do in a bonding tray in the attic.

[Isetech]

I find if you just clean up the messy DB, cut back the 5 m of slack on the cables and secure a longer neutral bar it solves the problems.

I prefer DB's where the mounting plate for the breakers has a gap.

It boils down to bad design and lack of policing. I bought a 3 tier DB, 36 way DB, it comes with 1 x 10 way neutral bar

We wonder why this industry has become a joke.

[Dylboy]

Awesome ! Hahaha and yes what you said makes sense as they do end up leaving the same DB.

I'm finding small 2 tier boards already with an extra N bar and then no more space hahaha.

Cleaning it up does help but often the line cables just block the N bar as you say 24 way DB and 2 small N bars... Also behind where the entry holes are and there is no back plate side haha

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[Isetech]

Cleaning it up does help but often the line cables just block the N bar as you say 24 way DB and 2 small N bars... Also behind where the entry holes are and there is no back plate side haha

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It boils down to a crap design by people who have no idea about working on site and a lack of industry standards, its that simple.

I am slowly learning to just ignore everything other my task at hand. I dont care if there are 6 x 4mm wires with the strands cut back to fit in one terminal, if it works, why get into a dispute, the customer will tell you it has worked like that for 10 years. Think about it, if it has worked for 10 years, why do you want to change it, unless you can screw the customer for as few extra bucks, dont waste the energy.

Let this be a lesson to youngsters starting out, dont become that person who always finds the bad workmanship and points it out. Just go with the flow and and makes sure you do your job right, at the end of the day nobody cares if the building burns down, its insured, so long as you can sleep at night because you did your job part right.

Get good at what you do and focus on you are getting paid for, nothing else matters.

[Dylboy]

I agree and the people who design it dont use it. 25mm cable actually distorts the shape of the boards they so flimsy.

I agree and have learnt that now too. I do not slag off any one else's work I just do my bit correct. If I see something is melting then sure I'll have a say but I have done fixing up of others work and not being paid for it.

As you say been working for years why is it a problem....

The amount of incorrect colour coding or rather lack of on 3 phase domestic boards is unreal...

My new biggest gripe is that I just wish it was law to mark every conductor Pair so when reading Neautrals it's easy as can match up line 3 with Neautral 3....but hey that would make our lives too easy hahaha

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[Isetech]

I agree and the people who design it dont use it. 25mm cable actually distorts the shape of the boards they so flimsy.

I agree and have learnt that now too. I do not slag off any one else's work I just do my bit correct. If I see something is melting then sure I'll have a say but I have done fixing up of others work and not being paid for it.

As you say been working for years why is it a problem....

The amount of incorrect colour coding or rather lack of on 3 phase domestic boards is unreal...

My new biggest gripe is that I just wish it was law to mark every conductor Pair so when reading Neautrals it's easy as can match up line 3 with Neautral 3....but hey that would make our lives too easy hahaha

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I buy rolls of white heat shrink and use a black marker to identify the live and neutral.

I did buy a roll of heat shrink for the brother printer, but I cant justify the cost, the heat shrink and marker will do.

[Dylboy]

That's a good idea, when I'm splitting I do the tiger stripe method and then have a silver perm marker for the neutrals haha.

If it's a new board I'm doing I try use numbers, but can be a pain

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[Derlyn]

Changing the subject slightly.
Sitting with a situation.
Have a FTE cable entering the back of a db and going out the side of same db, but not supplied from this same db. No connections, just in the back and out the side.

So now when the db is isolated, that FTE cable going through the db is live.

Acceptable or not ?

[Isetech]

That's a good idea, when I'm splitting I do the tiger stripe method and then have a silver perm marker for the neutrals haha.

If it's a new board I'm doing I try use numbers, but can be a pain

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Back in the day when I worked on commercial buildings, we used the pliers to mark the wires, like you do with the marker.

We use make these pretty looking looms with 20/30 maybe even 40 circuit all cable tied together, I wish I could go back and scan those panels to see if there is any problems with heating.

Back then we didn't need labels, the circuit were wired in order from left to right. The circuit one went into the first breaker and the neutral was the first wire on the neutral bar.

Brings back some memories, working with a scaffold behind me to hold all the circuit up in the air, a low impedance buzzer to verify the light and plug circuits when the label came off.

To think back in those days I was only earning R10 per hour, but was still the highest paid person in the company due to the long hours. I have doing this shyt for too long.

[Dylboy]

Changing the subject slightly.
Sitting with a situation.
Have a FTE cable entering the back of a db and going out the side of same db, but not supplied from this same db. No connections, just in the back and out the side.

So now when the db is isolated, that FTE cable going through the db is live.

Acceptable or not ?

That is interesting as never thought of that it would be live when the board is isolated.

It is used as a through way so perhaps make a sticker to say watch out and then mark the cable ?

I'll try peruse the regs as well.

Something of more than one supply in an enclosure comes to mind


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[Dylboy]

Back in the day when I worked on commercial buildings, we used the pliers to mark the wires, like you do with the marker.

We use make these pretty looking looms with 20/30 maybe even 40 circuit all cable tied together, I wish I could go back and scan those panels to see if there is any problems with heating.

Back then we didn't need labels, the circuit were wired in order from left to right. The circuit one went into the first breaker and the neutral was the first wire on the neutral bar.

Brings back some memories, working with a scaffold behind me to hold all the circuit up in the air, a low impedance buzzer to verify the light and plug circuits when the label came off.

To think back in those days I was only earning R10 per hour, but was still the highest paid person in the company due to the long hours. I have doing this shyt for too long.

Hahaha pliers, guess it worked

I would love to see those scans as well, always curious of the grouping heat factor.

For the low ohm bell test for the labeling would you short the other end to then test your end up make sure it is the circuit ? Trying to picture what you did

R10 an hour now that was a long long time ago haha. Amaizng this inflation stuff... Soon my little one will be in a world where we tip the car guard a R100...



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[GCE]

Changing the subject slightly.
Sitting with a situation.
Have a FTE cable entering the back of a db and going out the side of same db, but not supplied from this same db. No connections, just in the back and out the side.

So now when the db is isolated, that FTE cable going through the db is live.

Acceptable or not ?

There used to be a reg that stated that a DB cannot be used as a drawbox - That was dropped

I would say not allowed as the main switch will not isolate the DB as per 6.6.1.1

6.6.1.1 Each distribution board shall be controlled by a switch-disconnector
(see 6.9.4). The switch-disconnector shall:
a) be mounted in the distribution board or adjacent to the distribution board in
the same room,
b) in the case of the main or first distribution board of an installation, be
labelled as "main switch",
c) in the case of a sub-distribution board, be labelled as "sub-main switch" "or
main switch" if the board is labelled "sub-board…",

[Isetech]

Its called a piezo buzzer, I had it connected to a 9 VDC battery. It was a quick way to identify a light from a plug circuit (back when light had a ballast) from a short circuit (if the wires were twisted together) , by the sound it made. It was a long time ago (around 1988/9). People would walk past and see all the wires over the scaffold and ask how I knew where all the cables had to be connected. It is actually really easy. Working on old machines that dont have labels or wiring diagrams, thats are challenge.

https://za.rs-online.com/web/p/piezo-buzzers/7800709?cm_mmc=ZA-PLA-DS3A-_-google-_-PLA_ZA_EN_Passive_Components_Whoop-_-(ZA:Whoop!)+Piezo+Buzzers-_-7800709&matchtype=&pla-395509570993&gclid=Cj0KCQjw9ZGYBhCEARIsAEUXITX1N3coZWwTlFy9ZRGQnCnR3bFjHtygNFuPS3gLpYyrk7e-eLtJPzwaAhPFEALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds

[Isetech]

Hahaha pliers, guess it worked

I would love to see those scans as well, always curious of the grouping heat factor.

For the low ohm bell test for the labeling would you short the other end to then test your end up make sure it is the circuit ? Trying to picture what you did

R10 an hour now that was a long long time ago haha. Amaizng this inflation stuff... Soon my little one will be in a world where we tip the car guard a R100...



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Back in those days, if you had a pair of Cresent (yellow handle) pliers and a fluke 77, you were the man.

We used the cutter part of the pliers to squeeze a dent into the wire, wire no. 4 would have 4 indents. It was easier than putting the pliers in your pocket, take out a marker.

Wait till you get a job to relocate a factory and you have to strip the machine wiring when they split the machines and then reconnect them again in the new factory. You are faced with brittle wires, no drawings, wire label and machine oil. Once you have dont a few of these you can call yourself an industrial electrician.

There are very few electricians who can do domestic/commercial and industrial. I am sure there are many who think they can. Just remember any fool can wire a DB, connect a plug and light, it doesnt make you an electrician, even if the piece of cardboard states "electrician". Or you have googled how to connect a DB.