Socket outlets 3 phase - ELU

[Derlyn]

I wish it was that simple, not all socket outlets have to be on earth earth leakage.

We are all aware that there are certain instances such as listed in 6.7.5.5 where earth leakage protection is not a requirement

however

those socket outlets in the photo supplied by the poster and on which the query was based, do not fall into that category.

[GCE]

HI

I received an answer from another source with regards to my query and was surprised to hear it has been around since 1993 - I unfortunately do not have SANS codes going back that far-The earliest I have is 2001 and that does have the ELU requirement in.

Looking at the install and knowing who did the original design I can only assume that originally there were Isolators installed and that somewhere along the way when the franchise changed there machines to 3 phase plug tops a contractor went along and changed the isolators to 3 phase sockets without thinking/knowing the regulations.

Present store owner is hopping up and down now as we have said either we fit ELU for which there is no space in the DB , which means a new DB which also has space constraints , or we change sockets back to isolators .
He obviously does not want the expense or the shut down to his kitchen for a couple of hours while we change them

He seems to think his other option will be to get a contractor that will sign it off , which unfortunately could happen as there is always somebody that will prostitute his license without realizing that down the line he could end up in a court case for manslaughter.


Answer received from others
With reference to SANS 10142-1,

6.7.5.2 Industrial type single-phase and three-phase socket-outlets
(including “welding” socket-outlets) shall comply with the requirements of
SANS 60309-1 and SANS 60309-2 and, except as allowed in 6.7.5.5 and
7.10.1.6, shall have earth leakage protection if the circuit is intended to supply
portable or stationary class I appliances.

This part of the code has not changes since 1993 so irrespective when the installation was done, the date of installation has no relevance to it.

[AndyD]

This is an issue that's common with non-retrospective regs where it's difficult to establish both when the reg was implimented and when the installation took place. It's time consuming for the contractors to establish this. There ought to be an accessible repository of past regs and ammendments maintained by a reliable source and available to all electricians.

[GCE]

This is an issue that's common with non-retrospective regs where it's difficult to establish both when the reg was implimented and when the installation took place. It's time consuming for the contractors to establish this. There ought to be an accessible repository of past regs and ammendments maintained by a reliable source and available to all electricians.

Not a bad idea - have banged it through to ECA but I dont expect results

Maybe we should start a thread and make it stick but it would need the first paragraph to be editable by some one so that you don't have to page through looking - It could be posted on the tread and then the first post could just keep adding dates .
We have one and others that bounce to mind would be geyser on ELU - The introduction of euro socket. Those question will start and have started already

[Dylboy]

I really think the older publications should be free, I was not around 30 years ago, well I was a baby, so how could I know the rules then, more so in my learnership the boss was not much older than me and his earliest edition was from 2006 I think or when it was edition 2.

The knowledge from the older lads mostly goes to the grave with them so having the older additions free helps or even a document stating the major changes from each edition.

As said above what to do with geysers and earth leakages? When did earth leakage need to be on geysers, like year and addition.



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[Isetech]

I did installs and maintenance for fast food outlets, for a couple of years, hence the response I got back then (around 2014/5/6) with regards to the exemption for certain fast food outlets. I queried it back then, because I notice that none (not one) of the fast food outlets 3 phase socket outlets were connected to ELU.

I am yet to hear of a court case for anything, I have been doing this for a loooooong looooong time.

I hear these threats all the time, I have even had certain members of an organization, that are suppose to be approved by the DOL, threaten me directly, tell me another electrical industry joke.

Electrical contractors cant even fill out association approved digital COC, you worried about getting caught for not putting a couple 3 phase sockets on an ELU.

Lets try something, Lets get one of the fast food franchises to allow us access to any of their stores ( I get to choose) to very that their 3 phase socket outlets are connected to a 3 phase ELU, I will even do the test for free

As you pointed out, the rule has been around for as long as I have run this business, but do people actually follow rules, especially ones like the silly plug rule.

Let me ask you this question, if you going to change just the socket to an isolator, why not connect them to an ELU, will the isolator kill less people?


Nothing else will change except the means to isolate, creating a huge inconvenience to the customer because now they cant do deep cleans as you pointed out, nor take the appliance away for repairs without getting an electrician to disconnect and reconnect.

The circuit breaker will be the same, the wires in the conduit will still be the same, the length of cable from the DB to the isolator will still be the same, the cable from the isolator to the appliance will still be the same. what changes to make the circuit safer, if you dont connect and ELU?

At least with a socket outlet, you could pull hard enough which could remove the plug top if the appliance was on fire, or someone was getting electricuted while standing ankle deep in water washing the floor or appliance, you cant do that if it is connected to an isolator.

HI

I received an answer from another source with regards to my query and was surprised to hear it has been around since 1993 - I unfortunately do not have SANS codes going back that far-The earliest I have is 2001 and that does have the ELU requirement in.

Looking at the install and knowing who did the original design I can only assume that originally there were Isolators installed and that somewhere along the way when the franchise changed there machines to 3 phase plug tops a contractor went along and changed the isolators to 3 phase sockets without thinking/knowing the regulations.

Present store owner is hopping up and down now as we have said either we fit ELU for which there is no space in the DB , which means a new DB which also has space constraints , or we change sockets back to isolators .
He obviously does not want the expense or the shut down to his kitchen for a couple of hours while we change them

He seems to think his other option will be to get a contractor that will sign it off , which unfortunately could happen as there is always somebody that will prostitute his license without realizing that down the line he could end up in a court case for manslaughter.


Answer received from others
With reference to SANS 10142-1,

6.7.5.2 Industrial type single-phase and three-phase socket-outlets
(including “welding” socket-outlets) shall comply with the requirements of
SANS 60309-1 and SANS 60309-2 and, except as allowed in 6.7.5.5 and
7.10.1.6, shall have earth leakage protection if the circuit is intended to supply
portable or stationary class I appliances.

This part of the code has not changes since 1993 so irrespective when the installation was done, the date of installation has no relevance to it.

[Isetech]

I had all the green books and MIE books back to 1985, I did a massive clean up and only kept from SANS 10142-1:2008 edition 1.6.

I really think the older publications should be free, I was not around 30 years ago, well I was a baby, so how could I know the rules then, more so in my learnership the boss was not much older than me and his earliest edition was from 2006 I think or when it was edition 2.

The knowledge from the older lads mostly goes to the grave with them so having the older additions free helps or even a document stating the major changes from each edition.

As said above what to do with geysers and earth leakages? When did earth leakage need to be on geysers, like year and addition.



Sent from my CPH2197 using Tapatalk

[Derlyn]

The difference between a socket outlet and an isolator is that with a socket outlet, there is a chance that the earth connection does not make properly when the plug is inserted into the socket outlet, whereas with an isolator, the earth is a permanent connection.

I stand to be corrected, but this was probably the thinking behind the reason that an appliance fed through an isolator does not necessarily have to be on earth leakage.

[GCE]

I did installs and maintenance for fast food outlets, for a couple of years, hence the response I got back then (around 2014/5/6) with regards to the exemption for certain fast food outlets. I queried it back then, because I notice that none (not one) of the fast food outlets 3 phase socket outlets were connected to ELU.

I am yet to hear of a court case for anything, I have been doing this for a loooooong looooong time.

I hear these threats all the time, I have even had certain members of an organization, that are suppose to be approved by the DOL, threaten me directly, tell me another electrical industry joke.

Electrical contractors cant even fill out association approved digital COC, you worried about getting caught for not putting a couple 3 phase sockets on an ELU.

Lets try something, Lets get one of the fast food franchises to allow us access to any of their stores ( I get to choose) to very that their 3 phase socket outlets are connected to a 3 phase ELU, I will even do the test for free

As you pointed out, the rule has been around for as long as I have run this business, but do people actually follow rules, especially ones like the silly plug rule.

Let me ask you this question, if you going to change just the socket to an isolator, why not connect them to an ELU, will the isolator kill less people?


Nothing else will change except the means to isolate, creating a huge inconvenience to the customer because now they cant do deep cleans as you pointed out, nor take the appliance away for repairs without getting an electrician to disconnect and reconnect.

The circuit breaker will be the same, the wires in the conduit will still be the same, the length of cable from the DB to the isolator will still be the same, the cable from the isolator to the appliance will still be the same. what changes to make the circuit safer, if you dont connect and ELU?

At least with a socket outlet, you could pull hard enough which could remove the plug top if the appliance was on fire, or someone was getting electricuted while standing ankle deep in water washing the floor or appliance, you cant do that if it is connected to an isolator.

I don't make the rules - If we as a company are going to sign a COC then it must be correct and to the regulations

You can bitch and complain about the regulations being silly but as a society if we do not have rules then it would be a free for all.
If you want the regulations changed then get involved where you have a say at the source of the regulations

The earth leakage story was brought out because of extension leads and because appliances are plugged in and the cords can be damaged when being moved.It is one of the reasons that consultants/ safety rep etc started insisting on earth leakage units in the stores for the sockets.

If the client does not want an ELU or does not see the need for it then an isolator or dedicated socket can be used under the circumstances that are listed in the regs - You get a 3 phase socket that is clocked with the earth pin off the 6 Oclock mark that does not have to have ELU as per regulation.

At the end of the day , if you install a 3 phase socket and don't put it on earth leakage you could be forced to return and do it at your own cost - Why would you put yourself at that risk

[Isetech]

We do have rules and red robots, but do you see people complying with these rules?

By the way I checked the green book SANS regs for 2008, it clearly states they must be connected to an ELU on page 168 6.7.5.2 "portable appliances and stationary class 1 appliances.

Why would you risk it, as mentioned on numerous occasions, it has become a numbers game and the lack of prosecution nobody really cares for a couple regulations.

Electrical, solar and generator companies come and go more often than I change my underwear.

[Dylboy]

Just a bit of an add on... those 3 phase plugs have RED caps... Is that not the same as a RED dedicated socket outlet which does not require earth leakage ? By all means it's a special plug so no vacume cleaner or iron is plugged in ?

So in my naive eyes it's a red socket which means not under earth leakage.

Just my 2c... Sure I don't know it all and in the greater scheme I am a noobi to the electrical scene as not enough years and teeth in the game

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[GCE]

Just a bit of an add on... those 3 phase plugs have RED caps... Is that not the same as a RED dedicated socket outlet which does not require earth leakage ? By all means it's a special plug so no vacume cleaner or iron is plugged in ?

So in my naive eyes it's a red socket which means not under earth leakage.

Just my 2c... Sure I don't know it all and in the greater scheme I am a noobi to the electrical scene as not enough years and teeth in the game

Sent from my CPH2197 using Tapatalk

If you look at the SANS regs with regards to the manufacturing of the sockets , the answer is no they are not dedicated if the earth pin is at 6 O'clock
You do get sockets where you can change the position of the earth pin and that you can use as a dedicated

Fast food outlets have seen the advantage of the earth leakage on the 3 phase sockets in protecting staff and equipment and easier to change out machines