Inverter part of installation or not ?

[Sparks]

"The supply" refers to supply from utility. In the absence of a utility "supply", SANS is not applicable to any installation. That is the bottom line. Irrespective of how you generate your power, be in an inverter, generator, windmill or waterwheel, on your private property SANS has no say if there is not a utility supply. It would be stupid but, you may legally wire your house with ripcord.

[Sparks]

Your are correct, the inverter system with all of it's components like batteries, panels, wind turbines etc. do not form part of the COC. Their cables, terminations and protective/isolating devices do however for part of it.

[GCE]

"The supply" refers to supply from utility. In the absence of a utility "supply", SANS is not applicable to any installation. That is the bottom line. Irrespective of how you generate your power, be in an inverter, generator, windmill or waterwheel, on your private property SANS has no say if there is not a utility supply. It would be stupid but, you may legally wire your house with ripcord.

If you feel the need to make a statement as wild as you have, please back it with fact.

One of your previous posts , https://www.theforumsa.co.za/forums/...ance-explained , showed understanding of the regulations but this statement made above is wild and reckless

SANS 10142 covers all electrical installations up to 1000vac and 1500vdc - Voltages above are covered in SANS 10142-2


Extract from SNAS 10142-1

SANS 10142-1:2024
Edition 3.2
24
1.2 Aspects covered by this part of SANS 10142
This part of SANS 10142 covers
a) circuits supplied at nominal voltages up to and including 1 000 V a.c. or
1 500 V d.c. The standard frequency for a.c. is 50 Hz. The use of other
frequencies for special purposes is not excluded,
b) circuits, other than the internal wiring of apparatus, that operate at voltages
exceeding 1 000 V and are derived from an installation that has a voltage
not exceeding 1 000 V a.c.,
c) any wiring systems and cables not specifically covered by the standards
for appliances,
d) all consumer installations external to buildings,
e) fixed wiring in the power supply circuits for telecommunication equipment,
signalling equipment, control equipment and the like (excluding internal
wiring of apparatus),
f) the extension or alteration of the installation and also parts of the existing
installation affected by the existing extension or alteration,
g) fixed wiring needed to connect the various units of complex machinery that
are installed in separate locations,
h) equipment for which no standard is referenced,
i) replacement or maintenance of components, and
j) earthing arrangements.
1.3 Where this part of SANS 10142 is not applicable
This part of SANS 10142 does not apply to
a) electric traction equipment,
b) automotive electrical equipment excluding the caravan part of a roving
vehicle,
c) electrical installations on board ships,
d) electrical installations in aircrafts,
e) electrical installations for underground and open cast mining operations,
f) telecommunication, television and radio circuits (excluding the power
supply to such equipment),
g) external lightning protection of buildings and structures as it is covered by
SANS 10313, and
h) extra low voltage control circuits between different parts of machinery or
system components, forming a unit, that are separately installed and
derived from an independent source or an isolating transformer (excluding
ELV lighting circuits).

[Derlyn]

"The supply" refers to supply from utility. In the absence of a utility "supply", SANS is not applicable to any installation. That is the bottom line. Irrespective of how you generate your power, be in an inverter, generator, windmill or waterwheel, on your private property SANS has no say if there is not a utility supply. It would be stupid but, you may legally wire your house with ripcord.

I was once requested to supply a COC for the transfer of a house in a rural setting.
The house did not have any electrical installation and was not connected to the utility.
The transferring attorneys insisted on a COC so I sent them a blank one, everything crossed out except for address and my particulars and in section 3 I just wrote " no electrical installation" with a smiley face. They accepted it and the transfer went through.

[Derlyn]

These discussions about SANS 10142 are very similar to discussions one might have with a flat earther.

With each and every scenario, the flat earther will have a model to suite that scenario, but there's no one model that suites all the different scenarios.

Some scenarios can be proven to be right in one part of SANS 10142 but wrong when relying on other parts.

SANS 10142 should be simplified to prevent the need for anyone to have to rely on their own interpretation of the law and it's intended purpose and to stay on the right side of the law.

[Derlyn]

These discussions about SANS 10142 are very similar to discussions one might have with a flat earther.

With each and every scenario, the flat earther will have a model to suite that scenario, but there's no one model that suites all the different scenarios.

Some scenarios can be proven to be right in one part of SANS 10142 but wrong when relying on other parts.

SANS 10142 should be simplified to prevent the need for anyone to have to rely on their own interpretation of the law and it's intended purpose and to stay on the right side of the law.

Ok, I'm trying my best to answer the following question and I'm ending up with the flat earther scenario.

Scenario. My house has no utility connection. My electricity comes from solar panels, batteries and inverter only.

Question. Am I the consumer, the supplier or both ?


Now if I use the definition of "supplier", I first have to ascertain whether I'm a statutory body or person, as per the definition. I know I'm a person, but not sure if I'm a statutory person.
If I am a statutory person then I suppose one could define me as a supplier. If I'm just a normal person then I cannot be defined as a supplier.

Now if I use the definition of "consumer", I would clearly fall into that description as a person who supplies his own electricity, as per the definition.

Up to now, I'm sure that I'm the consumer, but unsure whether I'm also the supplier. ( help needed with the statutory person thing ).

Now let's say I'm not a statutory person, then I'm not a supplier. No supplier, no point of supply, no point of control.

To be continued ..............

[Sparks]

Maybe I need to provide some clarification regarding my earlier reply to the original post.

Imagine a farmer with a rusty old pickup on his farm. It never leaves his property, not even for fuel/oil. Must it comply with roadworthy and licensing according to SANS?
Let us try again, all the food that gets made in your house for you to eat. Is your kitchen subject to Food Preparation and Health related factors as laid out in SANS?
If a farmer in the Karoo takes an old windmill and modifies it by adding a fey pulleys, an alternator, a battery and a few security cameras, is he subject to SANS?
If you have no service being provide and are totally self sufficient. What do your contraptions have to do with SANS?

SANS has it's place, and rightly so, but let's not go overboard.

[Dave A]

Imagine a farmer with a rusty old pickup on his farm. It never leaves his property, not even for fuel/oil. Must it comply with roadworthy and licensing according to SANS?

If the brakes don't work and as a result it rolls over a worker and severely injures him/her?

The issue is compulsory safety standards, and they are compulsory for a reason.
SANS 10142-1 is a compulsory safety standard - where-ever there is an electrical installation (as defined by the EIR).

[Derlyn]

It's a pity and somewhat confusing as to why there are definitions in the EIR and SANS 10142 that are not the same.

[GCE]

Conflicts arise in the code and EIR due to the documents been revised at different times and because people keep looking for complications that are not really there .
In the "old " days it was simple , we did not have cowboys running around taking chances and looking for reasons to exclude electrical work from being carried out by "Joe Soap"
The municipalities had inspectors and bylaws that could be stricter than the code and if not adhered to then an occupation certificate was not issued and a power connection was not energized -

There where changes to point of control due to the complexities in shopping centers .Point of supply was changed because people tried to make a PV installation a supply and therefore not electrical work , so it was tightened.

If you go back in history on the regulations the changes that took place started making it complicated as loop holes were trying to be closed or certain agendas were at play .

A classic is single phase tester - Originally designed for low cost houses , single phase supplies below 60amp , no swimming pools , spa baths , underfloor heating or low voltage lighting was allowed to be signed off by a single phase tester.
Then they creeped in there scope and started playing on all single phase supplies including in factories on single phase light circuits , plug circuits etc and so regulations were changed to " no single phase tester can work on a single phase supply that derives from a 3 phase supply " was not long until it was pointed out that all single phase supplies derive from 3 phase
Another change - needs to be point of control which the intention was still low cost housing but some restrictions fell away and so any single phase supply was ok if it had a point of control.
It then opened it up to single phase testers working in shopping centers due to the " point of control " - The reason point of control was brought into shopping centre individual shops was to stop having to test back to point of supply which could have been a 22Kva supply point .

At the end of the day it is people trying to be cowboys that force people trying to ensure safety of installations are not compromised that keep forcing changes that appear to make our lives complicated.

In the end it is simple - Electrical work needs to be done by registered electrical contractors who in turn must employ suitable qualified people ( don't start an argument about , electrical contractors drop Labour off - that is the cowboys trying to make life complicated)

[Sparks]

Should the farmer be so negligent to allow the wreck his kids ride around with on the farm have no breaks, he will be held liable, not under any SANS but as our justice system is or was operated on the "resonable person" premise.

[Sparks]

Dumping the Onbudsman was the beginning of the downhill slide of the electrical Industry. They were highly competent and had the power to dictate to the judiciary regarding the sentences based on the seriousness of the offences. They were highly respected and no contravtor took chances with them, they could not because the Onbudsman had the full support of the judiciary. Were they still around there would not be a bakkie brigade at all. I have very fond memories of the last one we had in PE.