geyser timer???or not

[IMHO]

The timer would be required to be installed by a competent person.

If for example the timer is installed in an enclosure that is secured to the cylinder itself with a very short cable between the enclosure and the cylinder element then the timer would be considered an integral part of the geyser and wouldn't necessarily fall under the scope of a COC.
If the timer was installed in the DB then it would fall under the scope of the COC and a certificate would need to be issued specifically for its installation.

@IMHO^^^

The installation at both premises is a shambles. I would rip it out and start again.

• No earth bonding visible on any cylinders
  What does it look like?
  
• Internal PVC cable used externally in view of the sun
  I was told this is suitable and legal for indoors and outdoors?
  
• No spreg between the isolators and the cylinders (maybe the horozontal one does but it looks broken plus it's PVC in sunshine)
  Spreg?
  
• Isolators inadequately IP rated
  How can you see that?
  
• Cabes un-secured
• Cables run in close proximity to or even strapped to hot water pipes
• No pipes fitted to the hot water safety valves (hope no kids play in this area)
• Looks like there might be a vac valve or two missing
• No trays installed under cylinders
  Why trays outdoors?
  
• Some pipework insulation wouldn't go amiss but this isn't a legal issue.
• A couple of the cylinders have limescale streaks down them which is a sign or water leaks.
  Probably the safety valves without pipes?

There's probably a few more things if I had time to study the pics properly.

Gee, I did not realize. See my questions in your reply.

I was actually referring to what can I do with regard to timers, but since I have to rip it out and do over, this is probably the time to do that plus timers. Can you help explain what you mean and advise with drawings? I would like my timers at the geysers and not in the DB's. These geysers is on 24/7 and makes a huge dent in my pocket!

Edit: Or maybe a picture or two of a good installation outdoors like this?

[AndyD]

Gee, I did not realize. See my questions in your reply.

I was actually referring to what can I do with regard to timers, but since I have to rip it out and do over, this is probably the time to do that plus timers. Can you help explain what you mean and advise with drawings? I would like my timers at the geysers and not in the DB's. These geysers is on 24/7 and makes a huge dent in my pocket!

Edit: Or maybe a picture or two of a good installation outdoors like this?

Sorry IMHO, I was a little short with the last reply. The electrical installation does require some tidying up and the best way would be to remove and reinstall whilst reusing whatever components you can.

Internal PVC cable used externally in view of the sun
I was told this is suitable and legal for indoors and outdoors?

The cable doesn't look like UPVC which is a UV stabalised outer sheath. I would reinstall it in PVC conduit which is also not suitable for sunlight but it can be painted with PVA or similar paint which would make it fine.

No earth bonding visible on any cylinders
What does it look like?

Earth bonding comes in all shapes and sizes. It's essentially just wiring that connects the hot pipe, the cold pipe, the chassis of the geyser, the body of the element and the supply earth together. It's there to ensure that under no circumstances any components or pipework rise to a potential above earth (0 volts) even under a fault condition. It has another worthwhile spin-off which is reducing corrosion throughout the whole plumbing system including the cylinder itself. This earth wiring should be visible around the geyser and its associated pipes.

It comes in good, bad and ugly versions but as long as it's mechanically sound and tests good it's fine;

Spreg?

Spreg

Isolators inadequately IP rated
How can you see that?

Standard lever type isolators aren't rated as weather proof. You can reinstall them in a York box or similar.

No trays installed under cylinders
Why trays outdoors?

This is plumbing or building regs, I asume it's for safety purposes in case of leaking hot water. Similarly the pressure release valves being piped to drain is also plumbing/building codes related to safety of people in proximity.

[IMHO]

Thanks AndyD. Now, which timer do you recommend?

[murdock]

it looks like white surfix...which can be installed...i had a confrontation with another electrical contractor about this issue...the supplier informed me that it is suitably protected against direct sunlight...i was always under the impression that only black could be used out doors.

[IMHO]

it looks like white surfix.

That is what they called it. Thanks.

[IMHO]

My next question.

I looked at timers on the web. Seems like they all can handle up to 16 amp only. That is 3520 watt?

Does that mean that where I have 2 or three geysers in a group, that I can not have one timer switching all of them?

[AndyD]

There's many ways to skin the cat when it comes to timers. You can have an arrangement where one timer controls all three cylinders simultaneously via a contactor or you can have each cylinder with its own individual timer. Which method and also which particular timer you choose would depend on several things;

• Does the premises have varying occupancy or is it always fully occupied?
• How many flats or families are sharing this water?
• Is each of the three cylinders on its own dedicated supply circuit from the DB?
• Is each cylinder the same kilowatt rating? I can see some look like they're varying capacity.
• Are you sure the water goes through the three cylinders in series? It's difficult to tell looking at the photos but I'm not sure that they're configured that way......

A couple of other points;
Firstly insulation. You really should consider insulating the pipework between the cylinders plus the final hot water pipe that sypplies the building.
Secondly, more insulation. Cylinders that stand outside get wet. When the internal insulation is soaked it's no longer effective and because it's well enclosed it takes a long time to dry out again. The losses during the period it's wet are astronomical. Covering the cylinders to keep the rain off is critical to any energy saving plan.
Thirdly, more insulation. Add a geyser blanket to at least the middle and final cylinder.

Obviously the hotter the water holding temperature the greater the heat losses so you'll save the most by putting the final cylinder on a timer and the least by putting the first cylinder on a timer. Depending on the temperature settings, ie if the first cylinder is only set at 15 degreesabove ambient then the losses will be negligable. It might not be worth the outlay to switch off the first cylinder as the payback time would be so long, it might be better to spend that money elsewhere where the savings might be higher.

It would also be worth checking the system is set up correctly. I've come across a couple of these cascaded heating systems where all the thermostats are wound all the way up to 60 degrees plus because someone has tampered with it without knowing. There are however occasions where the amount of hot water required has grown greater than the system was originally designed to deliver so to compensate the temps of the first two cylinders have been increased. If higher delivery capacity is required then, as a cheap fix, changing the mounting of any horizontal cylinders into vertical mounted can increase the hot water capacity of that cylinder by up to 20%.

[IMHO]

murdock, I must apologise. I highjacked your thread completely. Sorry.

AndyD, I will discuss this again with you at a later stage. I know I have to do this, but I must first finish the other project. I am still waiting for delivery of the items ordered!

[murdock]

murdock, I must apologise. I highjacked your thread completely. Sorry.

AndyD, I will discuss this again with you at a later stage. I know I have to do this, but I must first finish the other project. I am still waiting for delivery of the items ordered!

hijacked...no problem...the reason i start threads is to get people talking...sharing ideas...solving problems...and hopefully come up with solutions...so long as there is "dicussion" its all good...i appreciate and enjoy reading andys input...it great to have a person like him responding wit the valuable info he contributes.

[AndyD]

Thanks for the compliment Murdoch. I also think most of what's being discussed and debated is in the spirit of the opening post.

The first thing I think IMHO should do is a sketch of the complete system and exactly how it's configured. Actually get in the roof and make sure the pipework runs the way you think it does. Once you know exactly what you've got and the existing configuration you can develope a more holistic energy saving plan, the timers would be a part of this plan which might include other elements such as adding insulation, installing rain covers over the cylinders and even replacing shower heads etc.

[IanF]

Andy what are the best electricity saving shower heads to get.

[murdock]

shower heads are like geyser blankets...you stand in the shower for 10 minutes no matter if the hole is 0.5 mm or 1.5mm you are gona waste water...i am still not convinced a geyser blanket is always the best route...in winter maybe but in summer...i dont know.

i have gone to a lot of trouble to save water and electricity...

some of the things i have do...i dont know if what i am doing is the best way...but is is working for me.

installed a 1 kw geyser element...turned the thermostat to full...but control the water temp using the timer...
in summer i have the geyser set from 5 - 6 pm and 5 -6 am
in winter 4.30-6 pm and 4.30-6 am
i get 300 litres of water (should i say use...i hear they have scrapped it for houses which are worth more than 300 000...but need to follow up) my water runs out at around 7 pm when my wife and daughter bath...so the geyser water mustnt be too hot...it is working for me...in fact i have just recently increased the time because the water was a little tooo cold.
this is also the reason why i have a gravity geyser...otherwise the water runs out and if the geyser is a pressure geyser the water stops...ther eis enough water leaft in a gravity geyser to have a shower.

we only do one load of washing a day...dishes etc.

we use 300kw of electricity per month and 300 litres of water per day.

you need to find what works for you...because we all have different scenerios...some people have more people in the house...some people live in colder climates...

i believe saving "energy" is a way of life...you have to change your lifestyle to save...by this i mean shorter showers...turning off the lights...using solar lights...catching rain water from the gutters..turning off the shower while soaping...shaving and brushing...because i do all these things while in the shower to save water...and many more

a tip for those who have the restrictor ont he water...

if you entertain...make sure your outside tanks can feed water to the toilets when you have guests...it could be a little embarrasing if there is no water in the toilet...route the washing machine water to a tank...the quickest way to fill it and for the toilet its not a problem with the blue stuff in it.

it is just such a pity...all energy saving equipment is so expensive...i believe they are ripping a big hole in our backsides...not because of the cost of the raw materials or labour to manufacture...just because of the big energy saving drive...someone is getting rich...real quick...and goverments are pumping our hard earned money into it...so they are just riding the crest of the wave.

i also heard they are scrapping the subsidy for solar geyser etc...i also dont think this is a bad idea...because i believe like tlelevisions...the price will start dropping a lot faster...without the subsidy

[AndyD]

Andy what are the best electricity saving shower heads to get.

I have to be honest Ian, I have almost no knowledge of the actual products available. I'm a bit ashamed to say I fitted a water saving shower head on two of my three showers, I tried them for a while and it reduced the flow practically to a dribble and I couldn't adjust it to a satisfactory compromise. They both ended up in the bin so I can't even tell you what make they were and I haven't bought an alternative, I just went back to the old water-hungry heads. Taking a decent shower is something I really enjoy doing and I wasn't willing to sacrifice it for a saving of a few litres of water

I think part of the problem is that the new hot water cylinders are 6 bar pressure and the older cylinders ranged between 4 Bar and 1 Bar or even, as in Murdoch's case, gravity fed which would be about 0.3 Bar max in a single storey house. The water saving showers have some kind of a restrictor which limits water flow but it would need a very wide range of adjustment to operate across this complete range of pressures and this adjustment is evidently lacking in many models.

My hot water cylinder is a 2 Bar copper type so it's at the lower end of the pressure range. I think if you have one of the new fandangled 6 bar cylinders you'd save a lot more water with one of these devices because your flow rate would be that much higher to start with. Also if you have a 6 bar geyser I can't help thinking that a cheaper / simpler alternative would be to replace the 6 bar pressure reducing valve (PRV) with a 2 bar rated one. This would also reduce shower consumption and possibly make taps less prone to dripping and toilet cisterns less prone to constant leakage which often goes unnoticed because the overfill just slides silently down the back ot the tiolet pan.

[AndyD]

we use 300kw of electricity per month and 300 litres of water per day.

Geez, I thought I was doing well when I reduced our electric consumption from over 1000kWh to between 350 and 450kWh per month and we qualify for free units now which has made it even cheaper. We also consume about 12 kiloliters of water per month (excluding ground water) but I haven't taken some of more extreme measures that you did because my wife would kick the cr@p out of me if there was ever an occasion we didn't have water and I had something to do with it. I think how far you're willing to go varies greatly from person to person. I know people who really aren't motivated at all to cut consumption of any resources. They're unfazed paying R1800.00-R2500.00 per month electricity and falling into the high consumption bracket for water.

[murdock]

to give you an idea of how much you can save when you shower...

firstly the cold water which normally just runs out until it starts getting hot...if you put a bucket on the floor under the shower...you can use the water to brush your teeth...then flush the toilet...as it gets warm...soap...washing your face and rubbing you chin to loosen the stubble to shave...but only shave just before your last rinse...so that the heat softens the stubble...this saves me money in razor blades...shaving cream(use soap to shave)...water and electricity...i use to replace my expensive gillette blades...ever 3 days...now i use gillette blue II maxium 4 pack...which i replace ever 3-4 months at a fraction of the cost.

the trick to saving is shower on...shower off...and if other members of the family need to shower...they should shower as soon as possible after the first person...this way you dont need to run the water till it gets hot again...only a little runs before it gets warm...unless your geyser is really close to the shower.

as i am typing this thread i am thinking what some people must be thinking of me...and how i have become a penny pincher...well the good news is i have money in my bank account...and soon will be looking into a small savings...not huge but as i have mentioned before...some good advice i have never used..."save a little for a long time"...next plan is to open an account to put my vat away every month...use what i have to pay the receiver ever month and save the rest until i have R100 000 in the savings...once i get to that amount i will move the money to an investment account (something a friend of mine does and believe it is a smart move considering he purchases his vehicle with the money he saves...we all know how much you save paying cash for a vehicle)