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[Jacques#1]

Hi

Find links to the very usefull info?

The question about control and supervision: http://www.eepublishers.co.za/view.php?sid=20617

The COC changes/guidelines - latest: http://www.eepublishers.co.za/view.php?sid=20564

There is an ammendment 7 now, can't find any more info on this: http://www.eepublishers.co.za/view.php?sid=19973

Shocking state of electrical Article: http://www.eepublishers.co.za/view.php?sid=20615

[murdock]

shocking state of electrical...it all goes back to the same argument...who is policing the industry and why are the culprits not being procecuted...

all you electrical contractors out there have to ask yourselves what is the ECA doing for you??? they take your money every month and mumble all the time but i never see any action...i suppose much like our govamunt...department of labour...ECA all the same lots of noise new laws new rules...pay...pay...pay and just when you think they are finished with you some new law comes out or new sans code or sans book...CD...more money...more money.

when someone gona put their foot down and say enough is enough and put someone in the ECA who has the balls to take on the challenge and make some changes...the ECA regard themselves as the mouth piece for the electrical contrators when they gona take charge and do something about the industry...i for would support them again but not until i see some action instead of just words

[murdock]

and while i am in a moaning mood again...all you contractors that go for the free food and drinks at the ECA meets and go yeah yeah increase prices and yeah yeah lets do something about the industry stop being such a spineless bunch of wankers and actually put up your rates...

every meeting i went to i always heard the same thing yeah we must increase our rates the next day i quote and all the prices are still the same.

WE should enforce a min rate of R750 for COC for a standard 3 bedroom house...just like the lawyers do with their rates...if they talk to you on the telphone R120 standrd rate...to try get anyone to listen is like bowing wind out my backside...just disipates into thin air.

[Dave A]

Great links - thanks Jaques

The question about control and supervision: http://www.eepublishers.co.za/view.php?sid=20617

I see this article is by Chris Greager.

It must be emphasised that failure to comply with the above requirements renders not only the electrical contractor liable to prosecution, but also the client and principal contractor, all of whom could face substantial financial damages should civil action be instituted against them by any affected party.

So does that imply enforcement relies solely on the threat of civil action? I thought there would have been something like "i.t.o. section x so-and-so is liable of a fine of Ry and/or imprisonment up to z years."

Civil action is only likely where the damage claim makes it viable. There may be rare instances where this might occur, but it's barely a form of enforcement ensuring consistent compliance with the law.

There is an ammendment 7 now, can't find any more info on this: http://www.eepublishers.co.za/view.php?sid=19973

From the article:

The only difference from amendment 6 is to change the Certificate of Compliance (CoC) to a test report. In the text where reference was previously made to 'the CoC', this has now been changed to read 'test report', where applicable

Pretty cut and dried really.

The article on the state of the electrical contracting industry is right on the money, at least in terms of framing the problem. Pretty weak on solutions, though.

When it comes to solutions, I really think it's about time the electrical contracting industry learnt from the other trades it seems so envious of.

[murdock]

the question about control...the only time this is gona work is when the IE or MIE becomes an inspector and is not expected to carry out electrical installation work or maintenance...you ask what am i going on about...

from experience working as an electrician/MIE being employed by a company means you have to clock your hours to quantify your worth...otherwise you dont get paid...managers and company owners dont see inspecting and testing as a form of ROI...in other words when testing you are costing the company money...unless of course that is what your company does on a daily basis like daves company...it is a different ball game when it comes to installation projects...inspection and testing is just something that costs the company money and having a full time inspector employed means having an addtional overhead...so what people do is employ an IE or MIE and expect him to do installation work and just sign over projects without even knowing what has happened in other parts of the project yet he becomes responsible for the entire project

as far as i am concerned these companies should be taken to task with the unions...because i speak from personal experience...where i was put in this position many years ago.

the inspector should have some clout on the project and be involved in decision making when it comes to the electrical installation...similar to the alprom inspectors on the alusaf hillside project...boy if they told you there was somthing with your job you made sure it was fixed correctly.

i also believe that electrical inspectors should have to go on yearly if not 2 twice a year on refresher courses to keep up with the ever changing industry...like engineers and there should be a credit system for attending seminars etc...if you dont get your credits for the year your license should be suspended...and if you dont get them within a certain time frame your license should be taken away from you and you should ahve to start all over again.

i suppose i can dream

every single property owner or person renting should have a coc...the yellow copy on the property...it should be like the drivers license...you dont have one you get a fine...there should be random checks on properties down by suitably qualified people not just some dumb ass or doesnt know the difference between a coc and a lease agreement...there should be a data base for every single coc issued with all the details...so that when routine checkups are done a visual inspection can be carried out by the inspector doing the random check to see if the coc is legit...blah blah blah time to go to bed

[Jacques#1]

WE should enforce a min rate of R750 for COC for a standard 3 bedroom house...just like the lawyers do with their rates...if they talk to you on the telphone R120 standrd rate...to try get anyone to listen is like bowing wind out my backside...just disipates into thin air.

First of all I would like to say that I am in no way affiliated with the ECA, but I did attend the last workshop in 2009 about the new COC. The speaker said the problem about prices was that it may be considered collusion, and that is why no one has the kahunas to set any standard pricing. He also talked about a COC starting from R1000 and up wards, that as far as my knowledge goes is the minimum average. I work that as the average, with a small bachelor flat, 1 bedroom, bath, kitchen, lounge around R700 (no downlights or any fancy electrical installations). I also go quote before hand and point out any visual non compliances, to give my client the overall idea of a price. A lot of the time the only thing I do is earth the DSTV, but if the installation is prior 1992, then I don't do anything and my price stands. Thing is, I do the test right, and it takes me minimum 3 hours and up. I did a guys house, it took me 8 hours with minor repairs...and it was a medium size house?

Why are prices so low? I go to the customer to give a quotation and he tells me another %$@# gave him a price of R300. How do you compete with that? Then I tell the customer he is in for a surprise once the test gets done and the guy issues him a quote to fix the problems.....This guy is legally in business, registered, no red marks against his name, so the only thing you can fault him with is being slightly unethical, or in business terms smarter than the competition, which I feel is wrong.

Now, consider this, I am no lawyer, but the Carte Blanche story the other day about prices too high was shocking. I also found out that some guys really take chances with pricing.....would it not protect the public to benchmark prices? In stead of collusion, you are "protecting" the public from R300 COC's with R10 000 faults, or a guy who does a DB board of 10 CB's and charges R13k? It must be fair to us as well. If a doctor makes a mistake he kills one person, if we make a mistake we either kill ourselves or minimum one other person...No cheap government rates, but fair rates. I heard the average rate for a residential electrician is R250, industrial R450, and HT R700? This for guys with their own businesses. This is very high, but considering another trade like a plumber, very low......It would then work out fine, R250 on a job doing a COC in a house that will take around 3 hours=R750. In a house with downlights, gensets yada yada....5 hours = R1250?

What do you think?

[murdock]

there seems to be confusion about the COC costing.

there is no fee for writting out the COC

the fee is made up of 3 factors

1) an ispection report x amount
2) a cost for repairs if required x amount ( i dont agree that an inspection company should be an electrcial contracting company)
3) finally if a different company carries out the repairs a reinspection fee of x amount


the way i do it: (a stanadard 3 bedroom house) no pool...no generater...no jaccuzzi...no outbuilding etc etc just a 3 bedroom house.

1) i do an inspection report...which included the follow visual inspection (which includes pics) and tests at all the points...i also use to draw sketches but have stopped doing this wastes tooo much time.

2) then i invoice R750 for the inspection report and attach a faults list and a quote to do the repairs...i advise the customer that if i do not carry out the repairs then another inspection report is required to verify the repairs have been done correctly...at a fee depending on how many faults were found...if plenty then a fee of R750 will be charged again...if i carry out the repairs no reinpection fee is charged...(note the inspection report must be paid for seperately)

i have been looking into a square metre rate for inspection reports

3) once the repairs are completed i invoice for the repairs.

4) only once payment is made do i issue the coc...otherwise you sit and wait for payment which sometimes i only get when the transfer goes thru.

if we made this the norm in the industry then we wont always be the last suckers to get paid....or charge a fee to cover the 3 -6 months you wait for the transfer...ie a minimum rate of R1000 to cover interest on you overdraft.

all players in the industry need to get on board and make it happen....otherwise we are just gona get further and further down the food chain.

the first step however is to form an association which has the backbone and support of all parties to make it happen...and confront the DOL and tell then not ask them that this is the plan...and if they dont listen boycott the entire industry ie...we all stop paying any contributions...like bargaining councils...ECB and stop issuing coc until they sort the problems out.

it is clear that its not much use going on carte blache because i havent seen any changes to the industry since they viewed it.

it has to hurt in the pocket...otherwise we are wasting our time.

its like the easter weekend holidays i see there are zero tolerance warnings...what about the dangerous conditions of our roads is there zero tolerance for people responsible for repairing the roads....maybe they should fix the roads to make them safer.