master electrician inspecting

[bergie]

hi guys i need some advice from the master electricians.
when we do inspections on flameproof motors,lights ,etc then as i understand it we need certification papers (for the motors,etc )to be attached to the coc.
if i buy a new motor i receive the certification, but what about older installations ,where the papers are long gone.
i cant remove every motor and send it to an acreddited armature winder for recertification.

[123]

hi guys i need some advice from the master electricians.
when we do inspections on flameproof motors,lights ,etc then as i understand it we need certification papers (for the motors,etc )to be attached to the coc.
if i buy a new motor i receive the certification, but what about older installations ,where the papers are long gone.
i cant remove every motor and send it to an acreddited armature winder for recertification.

***********************************
If you need to issue a CoC at a hazardous area you have to be a "MIE".
An "IE" cannot issue a CoC for that part of an installation which is considered to be "hazardous". (According to Regs.)....... I Think...

[bergie]

hi 123

i am a mie ,being doing mie inspections for many years ,but the rules are always changing and theres a lot i cant find in the sans codes.

[AndyD]

...we do inspections on flameproof motors,lights ,etc

What type of inspections are you doing? Are these inspections for electrical installation compliance as in COC or are you checking integrity of the motors/light fittings specifically for zone 1/zone 2 suitability on an ongoing basis?

ATEX and hazardous area motors and fittings aren't really covered in depth by the 0142 regs.

[bergie]

as i said ,i'm doing master electrician inspections,which is the normal coc plus the extra forms.
where i talk of the sans codes,its sans 10108,10086,79-10,etc
i check each part for suitability for each zone.each part must have a rating label indicating exe/exd,etc.i always attach the certification for each part to the certificate.
if a motor is sent for rewinding then it must be done by an accredited armature winder (i think there are only 2 or 3 places in cape town that are certified to rewind flameproof motors)they must give new certification with the motor,which should be attached to the coc.the problem is the customer could have sent the motor away for rewinding to the wrong place and i would never know.

[Master Electrician]

This is a common problem.
Your guidelines are SANS 10086-1:2003 (Table 3 on page 35) and SANS 60079-17:2003 (Table 1 on page 43).
These are the inspection schedules for Exd, Exe and Exn installations. The first three questions are:
1. Apparatus is appropriate to the area classification.
2. Apparatus (gas) group is correct.
3. Apparatus temperature class is correct.
There is no way that you can answer these three questions if the data plate is missing, or the original certificate is missing. Not your problem, my friend, it is the responsibility of the USER.
I refer you to the Electrical Machinery Regulations, Regulation 8, subregulation (2), which states quite clearly:
Every user referred to in subregulation (1) shall be in possession of a certificate in a form acceptable to the chief inspector which has been issued by an approved inspection authority, in which it is certified that the electrical machinery referred to in subregulation (1) has been manufactured and tested for the the groups of dangerous articles in terms of the safety standard which has been incorporated in these regulations for this purpose under section 36 of the Act: Provided that in lieu of such certificate an inspector may approve permanent labelling on such machinery which contains all the relevant information.
I will continue dealing with this problem in the next thread.

[Master Electrician]

This continues from the following thread, regarding missing certificates and data plates on Ex apparatus.
The owner of the apparatus is responsible for the certificates. The solutions are very simple:
1) He should have financial records stating where the equipment was procured or repaired, and the approach here is he finds the records, and contacts the supplier or repair workshop and asks for copies of the certificates.
2) The owner of the apparatus removes the equipment from service and sends it to an approved inspection authority (IA) for testing and certification.
3) The equipment is replaced, with certified equipment.
No IF's and BUT's. That is the LAW.
Regarding certified armature winders who have permits to repair Exd and Exn motors, there are two, that I know of, and one of them is more expensive than the other.
Bear this in mind: When a motor has hybrid protection, such as Exde, there is no armature winder who has a permit to certify these motors in their entirety. They may be able to certify the Exd component (normally the stator, bearing housings, bearing journals, etc.) but they do not have permits to certify the Exe component of the motor, (normally the terminal box).

As far as Exn motors are concerned, there is no way that these motors can be distinguished from standard industrial motors by means of a visual, or close inspection. A standard electrical motor can be converted to a non-sparking motor by an approved armature winder and issued with a certificate and fitted with a dataplate containing all the relevant information, most importantly, the temperature class.
No certificate, no data plate: Goodbye Charlie! The machine does not conform.

Now some more information regarding Exd (flameproof motors). It is possible to get two or three flameproof motors from the same manufacturer that have the same external appearance, same frame size, BUT have different temperature classes, different gas groups and the only way to tell the difference is by the OEM certificate or dataplate.

I hope this information is useful.

Oh, one more thing. If you know who the manufacturer is, it MAY be possible to get the certificate from them, once their datasheets have been checked and the apparatus can be positively identified as being Ex certified and established beyond a doubt what the gas group and T-Class of the motor is.

[bergie]

thanks m.e.
that info was very useful.
i think i will be having lots more questions for you.
do you have a list of all the sans ,sabs codes that are neccessary for master electricians.i think i have all the important ones,but they might have brought out more that i dont know about.

[murdock]

how many contractors out there notify their customers of their responsibilties...with regards to the electrical installation...i find when there is an issue with the electrical installation...they just point in my direction...but in court they wouldnt stand a chance...however...how many contractors notify their customer that there are in fact problems on site like motors without certification...illegal componets on the site etc.

i have been trying for years to get my customers to commit to some form of maintenance program no matter how small...unfortunatly the budget always rules out any form of preventitive maintenance...people seem to think once a plug...light...machine is connected there is no need to service the electrical components...only mechanical.

even to get them to do a 6 monthly check of visual repairs proves to be a challenge...like when the glands come loose and they are hanging on the wires...especially on moving parts.

this year i will be putting a simple check list together which will cover the basiscs to be checked...i will notify the customer of the routine checks required...time frame depending on the type of factory and how rough they are with the installation...i will also notify them of their responsibilty and if they choose not to do anything about it...at least i will be covered if there is an investigation.

[Sparks]

If it were me and the "user" as described was not in posession of the certification, I would not connect the equipment due to the potential hazard, should it not be compliant.
No option other than to remove and have certified. It would teach the user a lesson albeit expensive.
Still cheaper in lives though.