[Question] DIY electrical

[murdock]

lets say i write a step by step article about how to wire up a generator (just using this as an example)...for the DIY enthusiust...have it printed in one of our local DIY mags...but the article is missing a few key points about the safety...and i forget to mention that you need to earth the unit etc etc...what happens if someone does their own generator connection and one of the members of his family or a friend visiting gets electricuted?

another question...what happens if one of our local DIY TV programs does an article on how to connect a new security light...but the step by step instalaltion is illegal?

If one of your customers are one of these DIY type peopel and like to do everything themselves...which i think is great...but he is buying and installing equipment which he has purchased from a DIY store and none of the components are SABS approved...how do you tell the customer that you cannot sign over his house when he sells it because all the components he installed are not sabs approved...and who is responsible for the cost to replace all thes ecomponenets which should never have been sold in south africa to start with?

[Dave A]

how do you tell the customer that you cannot sign over his house when he sells it because all the components he installed are not sabs approved...

As tough as it is, that's the easiest one of the questions you raise

Awareness the issue here?

[murdock]

then my question is if the DIY programs and articles in the magazines are not correct...how does the customer become aware?

in the sans book it clearly states that all electrical installations are to be done by a registered electrician...does this not apply to DIY enthusiasts?

[Dave A]

Who has been running these programs then? Maybe someone needs to send them a letter along with a copy of the relevant part of the code.

[berndj]

then my question is if the DIY programs and articles in the magazines are not correct...how does the customer become aware?

in the sans book it clearly states that all electrical installations are to be done by a registered electrician...does this not apply to DIY enthusiasts?

Does it say that? I've pretty nearly finished reading 10142-1 front to back (minus the part about special installations as I have no such need and all I can find is that a three-phase installation must be done by a registered person. The closest I can find to what you seem to be implying is "clear" is section 5.3 (CONSTRUCTION) of the CoC form, that seems to presuppose registration. (That is, if "responsible for" and "did the work" mean the same thing.)

Also, there's Annex P, which for single-phase installation includes "any person" as a possibility for "May be installed by", which has the qualifier "on behalf of". But what does that mean if I'm extending my own installation - the "DIY installation" so maligned here?

I'd appreciate it a lot if you could point me to chapter and verse of a more explicit statement of who may work on the wiring. It's been bugging me for a while now, as I need to know just how far down the ethics ladder I'll have to go eventually when I actually connect the new circuits to the supply. Sorry to sound smug, but I'm 100% certain that I can do at least as safe a job as whoever previously worked on this house's wiring. I don't suppose any one of you guys forgot an empty gin bottle in my roof? :-P

[mikilianis]

You sure it is a gin bottle normally its a wine bottle with a lable " Bright Spark " It couldnt of been mine or any of my co-workers as we only drink Vodka on the job,why do you want the person responsible to remove the empty.

[murdock]

Does it say that? I've pretty nearly finished reading 10142-1 front to back (minus the part about special installations as I have no such need and all I can find is that a three-phase installation must be done by a registered person. The closest I can find to what you seem to be implying is "clear" is section 5.3 (CONSTRUCTION) of the CoC form, that seems to presuppose registration. (That is, if "responsible for" and "did the work" mean the same thing.)

Also, there's Annex P, which for single-phase installation includes "any person" as a possibility for "May be installed by", which has the qualifier "on behalf of". But what does that mean if I'm extending my own installation - the "DIY installation" so maligned here?

I'd appreciate it a lot if you could point me to chapter and verse of a more explicit statement of who may work on the wiring. It's been bugging me for a while now, as I need to know just how far down the ethics ladder I'll have to go eventually when I actually connect the new circuits to the supply. Sorry to sound smug, but I'm 100% certain that I can do at least as safe a job as whoever previously worked on this house's wiring. I don't suppose any one of you guys forgot an empty gin bottle in my roof? :-P

couldnt have been me i didnt go into anyones roof while i worked in cape town...

will note your comments and take it up with the electrical bargaining council...maybe i can register my bussiness as a diy company and do electrical work...it will save me plenty money in bargaining council fees.

i wish i had time to read the sans book from cover to cover...maybe you can bring us up to speed with the changes in amendment no 7 i havent even been to collect them yet.

[Martinco]

couldnt have been me i didnt go into anyones roof while i worked in cape town...

Ja.....the problem is that you finished half the bottle before you went into the roof.....that's why you cannot remember !

[Dave A]

Does it say that? I've pretty nearly finished reading 10142-1 front to back (minus the part about special installations as I have no such need and all I can find is that a three-phase installation must be done by a registered person. The closest I can find to what you seem to be implying is "clear" is section 5.3 (CONSTRUCTION) of the CoC form, that seems to presuppose registration. (That is, if "responsible for" and "did the work" mean the same thing.)

Also, there's Annex P, which for single-phase installation includes "any person" as a possibility for "May be installed by", which has the qualifier "on behalf of". But what does that mean if I'm extending my own installation - the "DIY installation" so maligned here?

I'd appreciate it a lot if you could point me to chapter and verse of a more explicit statement of who may work on the wiring.

I found two threads that go into this in some depth, control and supervision and who may work on an electrical installation.

There's also something else to bear in mind when it comes to uncertified DIY folk - best illustrated by a tale.

Years ago I was in a surf shop listening to a youngster trying to get sponsorship. After all the schpiel was over, the shop owner said - "OK. I've heard you tell me how good you are. Trouble is I've had no-one else tell me how good you are."

DIY is not maligned because of assumed incompetence, it's because there's no verified base line assurance of competence.

[murdock]

Ja.....the problem is that you finished half the bottle before you went into the roof.....that's why you cannot remember !

is that how i got that bump on my head...it must have been when i fell out the trap door and i thought it was from the headboard

[berndj]

will note your comments and take it up with the electrical bargaining council...maybe i can register my bussiness as a diy company and do electrical work...it will save me plenty money in bargaining council fees.

That wouldn't quite do as you'd still be doing work on behalf of someone else. I'm not confused about that at all - doing work for someone else is a strict no-no unless you're registered. I thought I pointed that out, that I have no intention to work on anyone's wires but my own, but you seem to want to imply that I'm one of those clueless bakkie handymen for hire? This seems to be your chestnut.

So how about that chapter & verse reference to the grey SANS book you were mentioning? Have you been able to find it? In the end I'll probably just wire everything up except for the final connection to the circuit breakers - that way both I and whoever issues the CoC will have our peace of mind.

[berndj]

I found two threads that go into this in some depth, control and supervision and who may work on an electrical installation.

I remember those threads and just re-scanned them. Indeed, the *law* may very well have something to say here, and the law certainly has more authority than a national standard. By that I mean that a standard can "allow" something all it likes, it still won't be legal if there's a law that says no. Unfortunately I haven't yet had the chance to look at the OHSA.

Just as an aside, if DIY installation (again, ONLY on one's own property) is indeed verboten, why do we have Builders Warehouse and probably other consumer-directed stores selling electrical goods that only bona fide electrical contractors should be installing? There really aren't that many people who use circuit breakers, house wire, 4x4 boxes, DBs, light fittings, etc. in ways that don't involve an electrical installation. Electronics hobbyists maybe, but there's like 5 of those in the country - not enough to dedicate 4 whole store isles to.

Years ago I was in a surf shop listening to a youngster trying to get sponsorship. After all the schpiel was over, the shop owner said - "OK. I've heard you tell me how good you are. Trouble is I've had no-one else tell me how good you are."

DIY is not maligned because of assumed incompetence, it's because there's no verified base line assurance of competence.

Perhaps, but in one sense I am both the youngster and the shop owner. I wouldn't get very far presenting fake credentials to myself - it's like a built-in reference check. I do take your point though, and it relates to how the OHSA aims to make a place safe, as opposed to merely regulating a particular transaction type in order to [try to] ensure that unknowledgeable consumers are still able to procure safe installations.

I must disagree though on DIY malignment on this forum. It seems anytime the phrase is mentioned, you get 10 followup posts relating anecdote after anecdote of obviously unqualified work, as if it's automatic that DIY equals unsafe/untidy/nonworking/antichrist. The law of course doesn't concern itself with such self-serving opinions and is more about verification and traceability.

[AndyD]

Much of the time the standards are deliberately vague to allow courts to decide each case on it's own merit, should the need arise, without them becoming an obstacle IMO. Certified person, qualified person, accredited person, skilled person, supervising person, person in control are not all clear cut descriptions.

In theory the only thing I know of in the electrical codes that stands in the way of DIY electrical installation is that any alteration or addition to an electrical installation must be accompanied by a certificate of compliance. If this certificate was to be issued by an electrician on a job that he hadn't done he would need to be able to inspect every aspect of that installation.....even cabling which might not be accessible for example.

I wouldn't say that all work done by unqualified people is problematic but we have an unwritten rule that we will not certify third party alterations or additions unless a complete COC is issued for the premises as a whole. Although this allows us to cover ourselves adequately, more often than not this is cost prohibitive to be used as a workaround by customers who want to use DIY installers. On top of that, usually the failure list is long on these premises as a result of previous work that was performed by similar DIY contractors.

[murdock]

In theory the only thing I know of in the electrical codes that stands in the way of DIY electrical installation is that any alteration or addition to an electrical installation must be accompanied by a certificate of compliance. If this certificate was to be issued by an electrician on a job that he hadn't done he would need to be able to inspect every aspect of that installation.....even cabling which might not be accessible for example.

andy i would strongly advise that you do some research on this statement...the rules have changed with regards to signing over new work not done by the inspector or under his supervision etc etc

i have noted that i must be a little more carefull when i reply to threads with regards to control and supervision

[AndyD]

andy i would strongly advise that you do some research on this statement...the rules have changed with regards to signing over new work not done by the inspector or under his supervision etc etc

Please feel free to embellish with the appropriate chapter and verse.

The way I look at it is any time a premises requires certification, like when it changes ownership for example, the qualified person will be certifying the entire original installation along with any alterations or additions the have been performed over the years. It's pretty certain that in all these cases that the certifying electrician will be certifying installations that he hasn't personally installed or supervised the installation.