Certificate of compliance

[murdock]

the way forward...

maybe its time to take a different approuch to this issue which is not only affected the electrical contractors but the public in general...costing people millions of rands in losses.

where do we start...

who is responsible for COC? (the person right at the top)
who designed the COC?
who enforces the COC and regulations?
how can we improve on the COC?



i beleive we need to start somewhere...i dont believe trying to palm the responsibilty onto a private company is the solution...i believe the DOL should employ the correctly skilled people.

a penality system for dodgy inspectors...1st offence a fine...2 d offence...temp. suspend license for a period of time and must attend refresher course on regulations...3 rd offence remove license completely for a period of at least 2 years and have to redo the entire process.

but in saying all this...the regulations needs to be improved...the COC requires a major revamp...and more specific for the different industries...domectic...commercial...industrial.


we need a public call centre setup by the DOL (if it is their responsibility) to assist with queries and problems...and better equipped training centres for the iinspectors with a call centre to assist the inspectors who might require assisitance.

major public awareness programs...most people dont even know that they are supose to keep the yellow copy of the COC...if you ask home owners for the origial COC they will tell you they have no idea what it looks like and that it must be lodged with the rest of their property documents...or with the attorney who transfered the property.

there are tooo many problems and issues with the COC at this point in time...and it is not going to help by dumping the responisbily onto the electrical contractors...the ECA...or the GEIA...the people resposible for this mess need to step up and sort out their fiasco they have created.

an electronic version of the COC should be made avaliable...everyone is concerned about the enviroment...come people why have we got a 6 page document which is duplicated and lines wasted

i also believe the test report and the certificate of compliance should be 2 completely seperate documents which on completion of the inspection report must be attached...recording all the information about the work carries out down to the repairs...the contractor and persons name and qualification who did the repairs..with 2 seperate colums...one to be filled in during the inspection report and the other ticked or the value recorded once rectified.


by the way safety inspectors on contruction sites should be better skilled in identifying safety issues in all fields not just checking safety boots and hard hats...i strongly believe using unskilled personel on construction sites is far more dangerous than a person not wearing safety boots...if that person wants to loose his toes or foot...it is his/her problem...but using unskilled personel not only endangers the lives of other construction works but staff who will be ocupying the building in the future.

come on people lets stop trying to point fingers at the electircal contractors...who may not be suitably trained due to lack of adequate training available...and rather see this massive problem for what it is...it is always easier to point fingers...i know i am as guilty as hell as you would have read in past threads.

phew brain overload for a sunday morning...time to go back to bed.

[Sparks]

I agree wholeheartedly. It has to start at the top. Legislation prevents it starting at the bottom. The local municipalities years ago had electrical inspectors, I think this contributed to the failure of the system because they would not connect without compliance. Now that they have done away with their inspectors it is a free for all. I believe that a simple gesture from the DOL like educating/informing the public of the legislation would go an extremely long way to getting the public to insist on qualified people. Also I find it ridiculaous that the public have to pay an Authorised Inspection Authority to see whether a registered contractor is complying with the law. That is like paying the SAPS everytime you phone them for a burglary, accident, assualt whatever. How stupid can you get?
If everything is in order, fine, let them pay for wasting the departments time, hoax calls to the police are a criminal act.
As for the COC, people in the field should be given the opportunity to submit proposals, we are after all the ones using it.
It is nice to dream isn't it

[murdock]

Sorry mate, it is time to take action.

If i remember correctly Dave mentioned a while back that one of the reasons he started this forum was to address these issues.

So lets see what we can achieved.

Lets start by finding out who is responsible, lets ge tmore people involved in this electrical forum.

Dave why dont you invite the likes of mark palmer and other people who write articles for the sparks magazine.

What about inviting the ECA to this forum, in fact why not try get as many electrical contractors and electricians invlved in the discussion as we can.

It would be a start, there are many people out there, frustrated with the system, and no means of expressing their frustration.

Dave what about inviting sponsors to contribute and advertise their products on this froum to attract more people?

i mean everyone, contractors members and non memebers of the ECA, electricians, the public, we all have a say in the future in this industry.

[Greg]

Murdock

You've opened up a can of worms. Straight off the bat Mr Palmer is not very popular with alot of contractors. He has no power over contractors that are not registered or ECA members.

He runs runs around with his little henchman and they make regulations up alot of the time to suit themselves.

I have also seen how these guys have vendettas against electrical companies that have been around for 40 + years. I have personally seen how a new owner of a place complained to a particular company (contractor) about a COC. This whole thing revolved around insulation that was installed after the new owner moved in. The contractor refused to budge.

Eventually the new owner submitted a quote which he had got to have the work done. Lone behold whose name appears on the quote but Norman Palmer , Marks Dad. Now that is very suspect to me.

I have a major problem with the way they go about their business.

I have also seen how on another job one of Mr Palmer's so called experts said that geyser needs an isolator. The contarctor said that is a gas geyser. Palmers guy said it still needs an isolator.

[Greg]

Sorry meant he has no power over Non ECA members or contractors that are not registered.

[Greg]

Gauteng inspection authorities bank on contractors rolling over for them. The moment you stand up to them they have it in for you.

I tell you what I would like to see. In a number of foreign countries one needs to produce a licence to buy electrical material. Thats a start to cut builders and fly by nights out of the loop.

[Greg]

Another method is say the following:

The authorities train people to do testing for compliance certificates. These testers can only test and may not be involved in contracting themselves. Registered contractors do the work the faults are retested and the certificates are issued. The testers could then also submit the certificates to a central data base.

[murdock]

I have have no problem with anyone entering into discussion, the more different views and opinions the better.

I am sure dave with do a sterling job of moderating, so long as he is on my side i dont have a problem

The only way to resolve issues is by open non bias discussion.

Which seem to be a problem on some sites i visit.

[AndyD]

You can play around with the rules and the system till you go blue in the face, as long as the enforcement is half hearted or inconsistent or corrupt there will always be exactly the same problems rearing their ugly head.

[Dave A]

I didn't watch Carte Blanche last night, but apparently there was an insert on electricians. I'm reading the transcript now.

[Martinco]

I recognized Murdock and yourself in the video shot.

I think it was Murdock standing on the ladder and disconnecting the ELC ! and was it you that actually bolted and escaped in the Kombi ?

Jokes aside......it is shocking how the public gets ripped off by "gangsters"

[Dave A]

Did you read the comments below the transcript?

[AndyD]

I didn't watch Carte Blanche last night, but apparently there was an insert on electricians.

Apart from a bit of free advertising for the guy that got it right I don't really see what this kind of show achieves. We all know there's cowboy contractors and we all know that they're likely to try rip customers off and possibly leave the installation unsafe, this isn't a closely guarded secret, there's no shortage of awareness about this already. From Carte Blanches point of view it's probably good for viewing figures but I really don't see what this achieves from an industry point of view.

[AndyD]

Did you read the comments below the transcript?

The disturbing thing for me was the number of comments advocating removing the faulty appliance from the E/L system being acceptable remedial action. Even if the regs allowed for the stove to be supplied without E/L (which they don't in this case) why do these people think it's acceptable to downgrade the protection for the user rather than localising and remedying to fault. It's a worrying state of affairs.

[Dave A]

Apart from a bit of free advertising for the guy that got it right I don't really see what this kind of show achieves.

Electric Mann is a solid contractor so I'll keep any reservations I may have on that aspect to myself. That they came through with flying colors doesn't surprise me, though - and I would hope if it was one of my teams in the firing line they would have performed as well.

I think the story does highlight some of the issues the industry faces, even if the consumer and the sparkies came away with slightly different views on it. The lass who told me about it this morning was in hysterics about the contractor who bolted, and the contractor who swore blind they were registered with the ECB when in fact they weren't.

"Why do they think they'll get away with it?" was her question to me.

Good question.