Vaccinations in the spotlight

[pmbguy]

I struggled to read all the long posts, I tried but could not for the life of me read everything, sorry Trickzta

It is weird how some people are very impressionable when it comes to things they read on the internet. I think that from when children start to read they learn that there are only 2 major types of literature, factual and fiction. This gets burned into the psyche and when the internet came along there was suddenly this huge amount of fiction but written in a factual manner. So the person reading it has a natural inclination to take it at face value and not doubt its integrity. I know one or two people that will accept almost anything they read on the internet, no matter how much I appeal to their reason. Children should get taught in school that there is a third major class of literature called internet misinformation.

Also each individual fact stated in Tricksta’s posts may be correct on its own, but it is the way the information is put together that leads to false conclusions, especially when other much more prudent facts are left out. The issue is then not seen in a holistic balanced manner, creating a totally false impression.
At some point he quoted some number of babies that apparently died from a specific vaccine, 34 or something, but he failed to investigate how many millions are saved by that very same vaccine.

The following fictional scenario is for demonstration purposes only, I don’t wish to get sucked into a pointless discussion over vaccines again: Leaked documents show that in 2010 alone 12 people died from drug X. This is horrific. The document is real and was hidden from public consumption. The FDA has approved this drug and they won’t ban this drug even though it kills people. They just after money...conspiracy....bla bla bla. BUT what the impressionable reader does not know (does not want to know) was that the same drug directly lead to the recovery of 10 000 people in the same year, therefore no FDA investigation etc etc etc. You need the full picture to draw conclusions. You can’t only listen to one side of the story and think you got the whole picture.

[adrianh]

When we were kids the stories always started off by saying "my friend know somebody who says..." or "they say..." now it's "I saw it on the internet..." of course photographs don't lie, Photoshop is a myth, journalist don't make up stories or embellish and fools & spin doctors don't create websites to flaunt their ideas!....hmmmm...seems we're back at the old story of "who's truth are we talking about" - the truth seen through various perceptions could be contradictory...

You see the problem lies in the fact that the deaths due to vaccines are visible and countable but the lives saved are not because there is no way to quantify whether a specific person would have contracted the disease if they were not vaccinated. The only thing that one can say is that there were a specific number of deaths reported due to a particular disease and with the advent of vaccinations there are a smaller number of deaths which implies that the vaccines do make a difference.

I would hazard a guess that chemotherapy kills 10 times more people in a day than vaccines kill in a year....and I would also add that cars kill 1000x more people per hour that vaccines kill in an year...we should rather ban cars to save lives...but we are ok with the risk of driving a car...funny how silly our brains are!

[Trickzta]

Disclaimer; applicable to all my posts in this forum and elsewhere. My posts are opinion and are not intended to influence any decisions especially those that are related to health or Medical issues. Consulting a professional is strongly recommended before any change to your medical regime is considered, whether such change or thought of changing is derived from content in my posts or not. Always consulting an expert before following advice from any source is, in my opinion, good practice.

I am not a medical professional by any means or any stretch of imagination, I’m not qualified to give medical advice. My posts are not to be seen as medical advice, I strongly recommend consulting a professional with any concerns or health issues before making any decisions on health matters. Please consult with your GP or your professional of choice before drawing conclusions from my posts including links to third parties, or any other posts that appear on internet in any form or shape. This thread has tilted off topic to some degree, nevertheless, it is healthy to debate in an open and honest manner, presenting available data in good faith without attacking the people who have an opposite view to the one you present, whether that viewpoint is what you truly believe or not.

A debate or discussion should be viewed as a means to broaden our knowledge and/or understanding of the subject matter and related issues and in some cases, unrelated issues. To approach such debate with a ‘win by any means’ attitude defeats the object, in fact the notion of winners and losers detracts from the essence of such debate and often debases the content by evolving into a personal battle of wits and/or a exchange that ridicules the oppositions viewpoint, sometimes even causing personal insults to replace ordered discussion based on verifiable points of contention. This is my opinion.

[Trickzta]

Are you guys serious? Have you read what you've posted? I have and will point out blatant discrepancies in your posts should you request me to do so. Take care.

[pmbguy]

I like this Trickzta better

[Citizen X]

Vaccinations are a) alright, b) bad, c) criminal, d) deadly, e) essential, f) fraudulent, g) good, h) harmful i) important?

I’m a layman to the field of medicine, have no medical training and don’t profess the same. I do however know one or two things about medical law and medical forensics.
On the point of vaccinations in general, I’ll turn to my two dogs Romeo and Lancelot for guidance, they require their yearly vaccination, failing which they are vulnerable to rabies.
There are cases in SA where mothers were found to be negligent for not taking their babies to a doctor for the relevant vaccination. In these cases these babies had succumb to whatever the vaccination was supposed to prevent. There is no excuse for a parent not taking their babies for the relevant vaccinations, as they given for free at Government clinics and hospitals.
The Flu Vaccine, I took the flu vaccine for these past two years and did not get the flu.
So, I choose option ‘e’ essential.

[Justloadit]

If you need to travel in certain countries in Africa, you are required to take yellow fever vaccination, and provide proof of the same, or else you may not enter the respective country.
Surely this is a strong indication, that the vaccine works.

[Trickzta]

Vanash, thanks for replying and expressing your view. As mentioned previously by one or both of us, everyone is entitled to his own opinion. I seriously suggest that you do a little research, time permitting to verify what, if any, scientific papers, research etc., verify or establish any 'scientific' link to the vaccine industry and to the vaccines themselves.

Some of the most damning evidence (scientific evidence) that I came across condemning the science-free theories associated with vaccines, I came across while searching for proof that vaccines did in fact work. Non the less I respect your choice without condemnation. There are babies that died because of not being vaccinated? Hard to prove (I would imagine) when many vaccinated babies die from disease vaccine was supposed to prevent. But truth be told, the biggest purse is usually better represented in a court of law, a factor that is apparent to some, conspiracy theory to others.

Won't be long and we'll have a vaccine to prevent freckles. Take care.

[Trickzta]

If you need to travel in certain countries in Africa, you are required to take yellow fever vaccination, and provide proof of the same, or else you may not enter the respective country.
Surely this is a strong indication, that the vaccine works.

Justloadit, thanks for your reply. In my humble opinion, this info is indicative of Imperial Rule (past or present) in said African countries, and is typical of residual influence remaining once the Powers have departed.

What is blatantly missing in this "Emperors New Clothes" scenario, presented by vaccine propaganda, is the scientific data that is available for all other drugs. Indications are good, but on their own, are deemed as insufficient evidence to support a scientific claim.

[Citizen X]

For me personally in the final analysis of this vaccine matter, if my two dogs must get vaccinated for several sickness and disease which could be fatal to them and I diligently take them for all their vaccines as I know it’s in their best interest, then why on earth will I be against any form of medically approved human vaccination. Babies need to be vaccinated, if their mothers fail to do so they will be held to be negligent. It’s a legal duty of a mother to act with certain matters regarding the infant and later the minor, one of this is access to health care and this includes vaccinations. There’s no mother from any quarter of SA that’s just going to prevent their own child from being vaccinated on a whim, most take this task seriously and rightfully so.
In short if vaccines are good enough for my dogs then they also good enough for me!

[Trickzta]

Thanks Vanash, for taking the time to share solid advice in your replies in other posts. It makes sense what you say and I was aware of some of the faults or undesirable aspects of trying to say too much and ending up sounding disjointed. To be frank this post and another took a strange turn or two and the topic was lost in the ensuing banter. Strangely enough some of the replies have content that is more applicable to the reply itself than it is to my posts.

I can be evasive when the occasion calls for it, I never realised the extent to which it is apparent to you and possibly others. Even more surprising is how so many people implicitly believe in some things that have no scientific evidence on which to base their findings on. I myself was unaware, until recently, of the nature of propaganda driven mass indoctrination and the use of these measures for political and financial gains.

You might say that to back up my opinion in regard to the previous two sentences would require multiple links. First I'd have to post a link that says that there have been no 'double blind etc., published data on vaccines for fifty years, although lately, here in Africa multiple Countries in conjunction with Super Rich Iconic people have done some preliminary research or tests or whatever the correct label is. The results were much trumpeted and celebrated even though by their own admission the results were lower than expected and in my opinion there is something 'fishy' about using a product that was shelved years ago to be resurrected and then used in Africa with African Guinea Pigs. Also fishy to me is the fact that after 50 years of proclamations of 'saving the world' aided and abetted by dubious laws and social pressure and the ever present propaganda spewing Mass Media Machine the vaccine pushing Mafia see fit to actually start doing the evaluations etc., that is a legal requirement as stipulated by the FDA. Secondly I’d have to post links concerning propaganda and its role in mass mind control, these links would in turn lead to more links when points of view were challenged.

To keep such a wide range of topics simple is no easy task. This is not a 'cut and paste' post but a spur of the moment reply. Due to a problem on two attempts to post this I did have the opportunity to edit some parts. The problem was in my mind, self induced. Don’t try to click the ‘Thank you’ button until the post has uploaded. Yes I did try it and it doesn’t work.

But seriously;
Instead of having a thread that meanders and winds (as you kindly pointed out to me) and has no potential of ending any millennium soon, I propose that we close this chapter or take it one point at a time.

I am open to suggestions in this regard. I never started this thread with the aim of 'winning' or 'losing' a concept that I feel debases the objectives of reasonable debate where serious issues are the topic. The only winners or losers I had in mind were the parents whose plight I wanted to highlight in the hope that they receive a fair hearing. My opinion remains unchanged and I'd like to thank all for their input regardless of their opinions stated or implied. The opposition this post received from some had the knock on effect of opening many, many new doors (in windows ) doors that I would not have opened had there been no response at all.

I must also admit that some of the opposition was 'tongue-in-cheek' and almost as over the top as I was, which is healthy I'd say. Thanks again for your guidance Vanesh, you helped me realise that I was defeating myself by trying too hard and was coming across as a bit too much of a "stiff upper lip", which is not really my style. I learned some interesting insights as well as the 'art' of keeping posts short and sweet. I yet have to apply this learning to my posts, as you can see.


In short if vaccines are good enough for my dogs then they also good enough for me![/QUOTE]

Lol Vanesh but still the most scientific related reply I've had! This makes me wonder if your dog has steak and eggs for dinner or if the Epol is good enough for you? Jus jokin! Take care.

[pmbguy]

@Trickzta – Here are some verifiable statistics to look at. These are cold hard facts, difficult to dispute.


Polio was one of the most dreaded childhood diseases of the 20th century in the United States. Periodic epidemics occurred since the late 19th century and they increase in size and frequency in the late 1940s and early 1950s. An average of over 35,000 cases were reported during this time period. With the introduction of Salk inactivated poliovirus vaccine (IPV) in 1955, the number of cases rapidly declined to under 2,500 cases in 1957. By 1965, only 61 cases of paralytic polio were reported

The last cases of naturally occurring paralytic polio in the United States were in 1979, when an outbreak occurred among the Amish in several Midwestern states.

http://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/vpd-vac/polio/dis-faqs.htm

[Trickzta]

Sure, stats are impressive.

No Placebo-Controlled Trials of Whole-Cell Vaccine Since 1950 - All Post-Vaccination Research in The Last 60 Years Shows Health Damage

No randomised placebo-controlled trials of whole-cell vaccine have been performed since the 1950s, when diagnostic methods were different. Indeed, in the early 1990s, the Institute of Medicine (IOM), which spent 20 months studying all the available data on vaccinations, confirmed that no controlled clinical trials have ever been conducted to rule out whether the vaccine can cause chronic neurological damage, blood disorders, juvenile diabetes, Guillain-Barre paralysis and learning disabilities. With the most controversial vaccine in history, most questions about safety have never been asked.

The only large-scale study ever conducted in the US, at University of California at Los Angeles in 1979, found that one in 875 doses of DTP is followed by convulsions, or an episode of shock or collapse, leading to death in the case of two babies (Pediatrics, 1981; 68: 650-60). As for brain damage, a Swedish study showed a rate of brain damage or death of one in 17,000 children (BMJ, 1967; 4: 320-3).

http://preventdisease.com/news/13/111413_What-Is-Deadliest-Of-All-Vaccines-According-To-Data.shtml?utm_source=Copy+of+111313&utm_campaign=111413&utm_medium=email

This kind of polio, "Atypical Polio", has since been renamed "ME" and even more recently, "Chronic Fatigue Syndrome". But it remains a kind of polio despite the change of name, and newer technology has shown up the generic similarities of the most frequent agent that causes it.

http://www.investinme.org/InfoCentre-vaccines-popup-2.htm

Now what I’ve been trying to highlight is that vaccines are allowed to ‘bypass’ normal channels even when there is no rampant epidemic to warrant drastic action.
Minimizing COIs in vaccine safety research could reduce research bias and restore greater trust in the vaccine program.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/22375842

Thanks for the reply.

[pmbguy]

So Trickzta Polio was eradicated in the US by the use of the polio vaccine. Is this not proof enough for you? You have simply bypassed my post and did not acknowledge the implications this has on your argument. How can you overlook the clear and simple facts?

[Trickzta]

*This is what started this thread. I am not bypassing your post of stats. I will post a reply about stats soon.*
Mrs. A said that around this time the pediatrician requested a biopsy to test the collagen for brittle bone disease. The results of this test are not known because Baby A’s medical records have since gone missing.

http://gaia-health.com/gaia-blog/2013-08-17/parents-charged-in-babys-vaccine-death/

*I do not trust stats that exclude some strains of polio, and/or subscribe to renaming these strains.*
Another high-ranking expert of the WHO, not authorised to talk to the media, told Dawn that although the latest mutated form was very close to the P2 strain of the polio virus, it could not be labeled P2.
“P2 polio virus was eradicated from the world in 1998 leaving the world with only P1 and P3” he remarked http://dawn.com/news/1032836/mutated...-polio-worries
The National Polio Surveillance Project data show that the polio eradication program has increased paralysis among children—from 3,047 cases yearly in 1997 to 61,038 cases in 2012, most now being classified as AFP instead of polio.

The Government does not reveal how many of these cases are due to the vaccine. It was observed in 2005 that, against 66 cases of polio caused by the wild polio virus that year, 1,645 were caused by the vaccine. Data reveals that those vaccinated are 6.26 times more likely to be paralyzed.

http://gaia-health.com/gaia-blog/2013-03-28/paralysis-haunts-polio-free-india/

Thanks for the reply.