12V fitting with 220V lamps

[AndyD]

Yeah the wiring hi temp wiring and sleeve is a little on the short side. All these types of items are in a gray area as far as the regs are concerned, I guess you've just got to make a decision based on the spirit of the regs, general safety and any experience you may have of the specific item. I doubt on these kind of things there will ever be agreement across the board. For example if I knew an item has been installed and working without any signs of deterioration for a long period of time and it came as an SABS approved item then this would go some way toward allowing it a pass in my opinion. On the other hand if I have seen the same item elsewhere and it had shown rapid deterioration due to heat or had been problematic in some other way then I would be considerable more likely to take a stand based on past evidence and fail it.

[Leecatt]

I have written to Bright Star lighting and asked for 5 SABS certificates relating to 5 different fittings. They have only sent me one certificate back which is for the type we suspected to be legal, the one that is all one piece DL 009. One can now only assume that the rest do not come with certificates?
I have re written the email asking again for the certificates and if anything changes I will post here.
Below is a picture of the legal light

[AndyD]

Just out of interest does that light fit through the hole in the ceiling in it's fully assembled state? Does the black connection enclosure on the top interfere with the spring clips when you insert or remove it?

[Leecatt]

Just out of interest does that light fit through the hole in the ceiling in it's fully assembled state? Does the black connection enclosure on the top interfere with the spring clips when you insert or remove it?

Yes it fits through the hole as is and the spring clips as well, no problems.
The gent at Bright Star wrote back and told me that the NRCS Certificate for the DL 009 also covers all his other downlighters. Sounds odd to me??

[AndyD]

I'm not buying that. Any certification should have all the specific product model numbers listed on it. It's remotely possible that NRCS might issue blanket certification of product line if the individual products all have individual certification by another recognised certifying body such as ISO, EN or IEC. I'm not sure to be honest but if this were the case the original certification surely should be produced on request, not the blanket acceptance by NRCS.

[JasonT]

hi, with regards to the wiring of 220v downlights, one can now purchase 220v "tail" which can be used in conjunction with the 12v downlight lamp holders. my question is: from the junction box comes 1,5mm flat twin +e, the "tail" is connected to the flat twin + e by means of ferrels and tape? how legal is this?

[AndyD]

Ferrules I have no problem with but I don't like tape. Heatshrink would be much preferrable. It's worth noting if you convert a 12v light fitting to take a 220v lamp then you need to install an earth termination to the fitting and connect the CPC (earth wire).

[Leecatt]

hi, with regards to the wiring of 220v downlights, one can now purchase 220v "tail" which can be used in conjunction with the 12v downlight lamp holders. my question is: from the junction box comes 1,5mm flat twin +e, the "tail" is connected to the flat twin + e by means of ferrels and tape? how legal is this?

I've dealt with this before and cannot afford time to look up all the regs.
The following comes to mind.

1./The connection has to be housed in a junction box which can prevent strain upon the connections and provide protection against the elements and being touched.
This is impractical because the heat from the lamp will damage the box and gland due to the short tail.

2./ All electrical equipment have to be SABS certified and drilling a hole and inserting an earthing point on a 12 volt downlight fitting invalidates this certification.

3./ All electrical equipment must be used as originally intended.

In a nutshell its bad practice and not legal. There is a 220 volt fitting which is suited for the installation

[ELECT 1]

We have a similar problem here in the Cape.
To replace 12v down lights with 220v LED.
Ok you get a lamp holder incorporated into a bracket which is supposed to fit through the spring of the recessed light fitting.
This is 220v , the LED lamp is steel or aluminum and therefore should be earthed.
Problem is that as soon as you connect the bracket to the fitting it comes adrift. Not clever. I am still from the old school, earthing should have a screw and a lug, a real hard connection.

But some firms that do inspections for a living hahhaa.. don't worry too much as they recon you cant touch it with your finger.
I showed them that if you stand on a ladder with the lights on you can touch it...ok i am being a bit silly now, but you could expect something like this from a misinformed person.

So we are still in a state in limbo about this bracket thing....All that is really needed in the manufacture process is an earth stud with screw on the fitting.

[ELECT 1]

I've dealt with this before and cannot afford time to look up all the regs.
The following comes to mind.

1./The connection has to be housed in a junction box which can prevent strain upon the connections and provide protection against the elements and being touched.
This is impractical because the heat from the lamp will damage the box and gland due to the short tail.

2./ All electrical equipment have to be SABS certified and drilling a hole and inserting an earthing point on a 12 volt downlight fitting invalidates this certification.

3./ All electrical equipment must be used as originally intended.

In a nutshell its bad practice and not legal. There is a 220 volt fitting which is suited for the installation

Hi Leecatt, in a nutshell the fitting that is used for a 12v lamp cannot be used for a 220v lamp, unless there is a permant earth terminal.
If this is not so, then who allowed the status quo to carry on with the current setup.
Ian

[skatingsparks]

more on the 12/220v lamp holder

More twists to the 12 volt 220volt lamp thing. A client asked me to install these. They are double insulated and CE and Rohs approved bought in South Africa from a South African Supplier. Same style bracket as previously asked about and in the paperwork that come with it it specifies must not be earthed. Guessing the cable coming down to the lamp holder is considered double insulated. The unit comes complete, sold as a 220v fitting, as pictured (bracket and down light together). CE standard acceptable? I mean, good enough for the whole of Europe, USA, Japan, Canada, Australia, New Zealand and Israel. I deleted the brand but I have used them before (the brand) in the UK a long time ago. Good solid fitting. Double insulated so fine, right?

[AndyD]

There's several issues at play when it comes to earthing and bonding.

There's an issue where the cpc is connected to facilitate fast disconnection of the circuit by allowing a large fault current to flow safely to earth without the touch voltage exceeding 50v should a fault occur within the device. With a double insulated/classII appliance or light fitting it is deemed that the extra protection built into the fitting means this type of fault should never occur under normal usage. Effectively because of the extra safety measures the body of the fitting is no longer considered to be extraneous conductive and as such wouldn't require bonding to earth for the same reason a metal window or door in a house wouldn't require bonding.

By the way the Rohs compliance just means they haven't used any hazardous materials such as lead based paint or solder when making the fitting. The CE mark means it complies with the EU low voltage directives etc.

[skatingsparks]

This light is marked as double insulated (square within a square also show on the box it came in an the instruction sheet) and also is supplied as a 240V fitting not a ELV (12 volt fitting).

Taken from installation instruction "'company name' down lights are to be connected to a 240V mains supply (no transformer is required) The main body of Class 2 luminaries MUST NOT be connected to an earth terminal"

So with a double insulated/classII symbol present i can take it that extra protection is built into the fitting means shock by direct contact should never occur under normal usage. Fair argument?

I still want to know if those brackets you get from all wholesalers are sabs approved, the ones with the earth tags.

Seems another grey area to me. At least in this case the square within in a square is there.

[AndyD]

.....Taken from installation instruction "'company name' down lights are to be connected to a 240V mains supply (no transformer is required) The main body of Class 2 luminaries MUST NOT be connected to an earth terminal"

So with a double insulated/classII symbol present i can take it that extra protection is built into the fitting means shock by direct contact should never occur under normal usage. Fair argument?

Yep correct. Also if the fitting hasSABS approval and the instructions specifically state the you 'MUST NOT' earth then that alone would be sufficient reason. The wording 'must not' does not leave room for choice or debate, it implies there's a damn good and considered reason not to connect the CPC.

I still want to know if those brackets you get from all wholesalers are sabs approved, the ones with the earth tags.

Seems another grey area to me. At least in this case the square within in a square is there.

I'm not sure if they're SABS approved or not, there should be an indication of this on the packaging and on the fitting itself. If they come with earth tags and they're not Class II, ELV or SELV then the CPC would require connecting.

A large part of the problem in this country is the lack of manufacturer support. It's chalk and cheese compared to the EU or the US where you can get 24 hour support from nearly all suppliers and manufacturers. In this country the wholesalers just shrug their shoulders and tell you this how how the guys normally do it so....

[skatingsparks]

I'm installing then as per instruction. Worst comes to worse the double insulated symbol is international. I'll attach a copy of the instructions with the coc. Is the light fitting part of the coc? Afterall the report covers the circuits for fixed appliances, but does cover the actual appliance, for example stoves, geysers, air conditioning and refrigeration plant and lights.