May plumbers change a geyser element?

[DieterT]

Good day Ians

I on the other hand think the answer is quite simple. All of those technicians can do all of that work if authorized by a registered electrician practicing general control.
You see the problem with this industry is that a lot of things got left unnoticed and unregulated. Now years later everyone assumes that this is the case, that a plumber may change the element or thermostat and does not require an registered person, same for stoves, same for gate/garage motors etc etc etc

Something interesting mentioned to me by the AIA is that our industry does not have regulations for DYI, no where in the OHSA does it mention DYI.
Funny thing is that most 1st world countries has DYI regulations. See : http://www.ewrb.govt.nz/for-consumer...trical-worker/

The isolator on a aircon/geyser/stove/gate/garage motor was never intended for the layman. It has always been a form of safely cutting out the supply for the registered person or the person whom the registered person has authorized to disconnect and reconnect or do electrical maintenance on the appliance whilst practicing general control.

You see with larger companies where there are more than 20 employees you have a appointed health and safety officer and I think 100 and more employees a health and safety committee with meetings every now and then + readily available health and safety file etc. Plus they are more regulated in the sense of NOSA knocking on your door doing a health and safety inspection red or yellow card your company which in turn forces you to comply.

My one client is super NOSA over-regulated. Each DB room is locked with keys available at the facilities manager's office signed out and at each panel is a lockout key box with each lockout key having its own key and lock. Plus then a roster that needs to be filled in when lockout commenced and lockout ended with reason for lockout signed by registered person and facilities manager. Overkill you think?! lol that is only the start of it, wait until working at heights and in hazardous locations. Hour job turns into a full day job.

What does one do in a country where people cannot think for themselves? you over regulate them. Unfortunately in South Africa we don't have the money to over regulated, but we have a country full of people who cannot think for themselves. Imagine a DIY regulation to be implemented in this country... and then our president would just say
Residential will always be as it is, self regulated. This not being the reason of carelessness, just why would health and safety bother their valuable resources on a home owner which in anyways has little or no money and does not required a health and safety committee? + should his house burn down or someone die, it will never reach the news paper as what would happen if a factory burns down or a group of people dies (that is seen as bad for economy and investors)

That is why the nice little clause exists of user / owner or lessor/lessee being the person responsible thus not the sparky, nor the plumber, nor the gate technician. It is the responsibility of such person to make sure the person he issues to do the work is qualified to do given work.

[AndyD]

A couple of points that spring to mind immediately.

I think sloppy workmanship will always be what it is and it will always be an issue across all trades. I don't think there's a valid case to tar any trade as being worse than any other and I don't think it's a valid argument on its own to exclude plumbers as a trade from undertaking work of a certain scope. There's plenty of sparkies around that can't be bothered to replace covers and lids if they think nobody will notice.

Regarding equipotential bonding, the regs specifically provide for an earth bar in an accessible place for use by other trades therefore basically inviting electrically unskilled people to connect and install equipotential bonding on anything they please and whenever the mood may take them (and also remove and disconnect as well).

This extraneous earth bar does also raise the possibility that a geyser could in theory have its bonding connected to somewhere other than the cpc of its supply final circuit. There may not actually be a wire directly for the cylinder itself to the surrounding pipework, the extension of the equipotential zone to the surrounding pipework may be from the DB.

I'll get back to this thread when I have more time, I've got 3 customers with blocked toilets and one with a leaking drain all screaming for attention

[Dave A]

What about an interior designer who wants to install different coloured steel fascia plates on the switches or sockets in a room? The fascias are electrically speaking a part of the circuit because they're connected to the CPC via the chassis of the switch. Would they need to call an electrician?

I suggest absolutely, yes - especially if the existing fascia plates and screws being replaced are plastic.

The continuity and resistance of the exposed metal components to the main earthing point would definitely need to be properly tested.

[DieterT]

I suggest the plastic fascia plates would create the external part of the switch or plug to become non conductive.

The internal part of the socket or switch have an earth terminal on the cradle which the fascia plates gets fastenend too. Should the cradle be disconnected or changed then I could see how your suggestion could be of relevance.

"I used to have a lot of anger issues, now I just have a passion for justice"

[Dave A]

I suggest the plastic fascia plates would create the external part of the switch or plug to become non conductive.

Exactly. And quite a popular method of solving exposed metal part earthing challenges at light switches (in particular) when doing CoCs, I believe.

You'd be shocked at how often there isn't an earth at a light switch.

[DieterT]

Exactly. And quite a popular method of solving exposed metal part earthing challenges at light switches (in particular) when doing CoCs, I believe.

You'd be shocked at how often there isn't an earth at a light switch.

Dave you hit the nail on the head with that one.
This is what I got taught from apprentice days. Earth continuity fail at the light switch or plug point, change it to pvc...
and then they found out that you actually have to insert the earth pin into the socket outlet and have to make sure the light fittings also comply with continuity as per table 8.1
I wonder who does this out of all of us registered electricians

8.7.3 Resistance of earth continuity conductor
Use a resistance meter to measure the resistance of the earth
continuity conductors between the consumer's earth terminal and the
earthing terminals of all points of consumption and switches. The
values shall not exceed those given in table 8.1.

All socket-outlets shall be tested by inserting a plug and including
the resistance of the earth pin in the measurements.

You'd be shocked at how often there isn't an earth at a light switch

This was a big headache when I had to take over a site from another electrician back in the day working for another company (before being registered)
The light switches only had a live in and live out. They where spec'd for Clipsal S2000, then the client decided to have Clipsal S3000 installed. You know with the locators, separate leds...jeeez that was crazy as every light switch in his glory mansion in Southdowns had no earth or neutral. We then pulled in an earth for each switch as the person doing the CoC at that time said every light switch required an earth (galvanized wallbox) and we then connected the locators between live and earth (which caused them to flicker slower than when they are connected between live and neutral...)

Ow and good practice and also a requirement. Even thou the switch or socket is PVC, if the wallbox in the back is galvanized, stainless or any form of conductive material, earth it. I would even provide an earth if it is a PVC wallbox just because of the fact that they can install (Crabtree) steel switches or sockets in the future. As the inspector would say, rather put an extra earth for extra safety than not putting at all, who would prosecute you for adding more.

[JanC]

I am a plumber and sometimes I do change elements... But I feel it should be done by an electrician....WHY?.... a while back I was called out because the breaker kept on tripping indicating a burned element( according to electrician)... As a rule I change both because we had several instances that the element was replaced and a week or so later the thermostat also burns... After replacing the element and thermostat breaker was switched on and it tripped after a couple of times the owner called the electrician after testing it was found that it was the breaker that was faulty not the element..... so the owner spent money that was not needed...

[Isetech]

I agree the element and thermostat must be changed at the same time. Back in the day when there was money in the budget to pay an electrician a call out fee to disconnect the geyser, then call the plumber to replace the element, then pay another callout fee to get the electrician to reconnect the element are long gone. I haven't done this in 15 years.

It is very very seldom the breaker is faulty. You as the plumber working on the geyser should have a very basic understanding of electricity and how to test the power to identify it is off.

It should be law that every single geyser should have a double pole isolator within arms reach of the geyser, the rule that a lockable isolator can be installed in another location should be scrapped, its dangerous.

The bonding should not be done within in a meter of the geyser. the reason I say this, because it is dangerous, why because every installation I have been to where the geyser has been replaced, the bonding has not been replaced. Geysers are no longer replaced every 25 years, its more like every 5 - 10 years if you get lucky. It would be safer if the bonding was done a little further away, so that when the geyser is replaced by the insurance companies (who use the absolute cheapest crappest subbies) the bond is not removed.

We dont do geyser elements, I tell the customer to call the plumber directly. I am yet to have the plumber call me due to a fault on a circuit breaker, your incident is the first I have heard of in 15 years.

In fact at the rate geysers are replaced, there should be a new regulations which requires a non standard specially designed socket outlet, like the old stove socket, that must be screwed in to place to secure it.

Geyser manufacturers must supply the geyser with a plug top attached with a 2 or 3 m cord.

I am a plumber and sometimes I do change elements... But I feel it should be done by an electrician....WHY?.... a while back I was called out because the breaker kept on tripping indicating a burned element( according to electrician)... As a rule I change both because we had several instances that the element was replaced and a week or so later the thermostat also burns... After replacing the element and thermostat breaker was switched on and it tripped after a couple of times the owner called the electrician after testing it was found that it was the breaker that was faulty not the element..... so the owner spent money that was not needed...

[JanC]

Since I am a construction plumber working mostly on Installations in new buildings, I can say that the law have already been changed that the Isolator switch should be within reach.... All the Geysers I Install the bonding strap is installed between the two vacuum breakers and the earth as well to a second earth, For that reason the bonding must be removed to replace the geyser the isolator is also put right above the element side of the geyser if installed outside its against the wall(I usually install the isolator switch and the electrician connects it ... The "Who must replace a element" will always be a grey area because 1.My understanding if there is a disconnection and re connection that is classified as an alteration, 2.The standards say that a electrician must replace a plug outlet or socket so why does it not also goes for an element..... SANS standards it seems is one big grey area...

[Isetech]

There is no grey area, it is simple the electrician must isolate the power and disconnect the wiring and make it safe, the plumber must replace the element and thermostat, then the electrician must reconnect and test.

However the reality is that the budget doesn't allow for an electrician and a plumber to sit on site for 3-4 to hours while the water drains and fills up. Nobody really gives a shyte anymore, so now the plumber does the whole job, saving everyone time and money, until someone is killed, then every law related person will suddenly appear out of the wood work and there will be a big whoh whoha for a day or 2 then back to the plumber doing it again

[Aumy]

I’ve had the same experience with plumbers handling the whole job. My plumber did everything from draining the tank to swapping out the element and thermostat because it’s quicker and more affordable. I made sure he knew to turn off the power first, though. It’s a bit of a gray area, but as long as you trust your plumber and check safety measures, it usually works out fine.

[Ghamman]

Hey Frank,
I’ve had similar issues before where plumbers take on electrical jobs like changing a geyser element. From my experience, there’s no strict SABS regulation that says only electricians can handle these components. However, it’s always best to have a qualified electrician double-check things, especially since it’s electrical work. I’ve seen too many cases where things went wrong because it wasn’t done properly.

[Leonsparky]

Only Wiremans licensed electrician may do ANY electrical work. removing wiring and connecting again is electrical installation work. If any electrical installation work is done a CoC shall be issued.

[Thys LOW Elektries]

IOPSA and ECA had issued a statement regarding this issue, might be worth reading? It may answer a few questions

https://ecasa.co.za/publications/joint-statement-from-eca-and-iopsa-ensuring-safe-and-compliant-installations/