unhappy customer

[murdock]

one of my customers called me a couple of weeks ago to query a quote for COC repairs...he faxed the quote to me and asked if the quote was reasonable and if the items listed were valid...i read through it and answered yes...so he gave the contractor the go ahead...the house gets tested the coc is issued and the house is sold and he pays the contractor...he buys a flat and the same contractor is doing the coc and repairs...the contractor gives the estate agent the list of repairs gets paid and hands over the coc.

the customer calls me about his new flat because he cant plug his computer into the wall plug socket because it was painted closed...so i say to him maybe the plug was painted over after the coc was issued...anyway i decide to go out and see what is going on...well the new flat has not had the repairs done as per the list and ever time you the contractor his wife tells the customer that he will be attending to it soon well are still waiting...i dont know how the contractor did the coc to start with because you cant put plugs into the sockets because most of them painted closed.

so now we decide to go back to his old house to check if the repairs were done there...all i have to say is now i know why the contractor has gone from driving an old rusted beetle doing coc as a part time job after work to owning his own company and now driving a double cab 4x4 in a couple of months.

i personally believe the certificate of compliance is a means to making estate agents quick pocket money from all the kick backs they get back from the contractors and get rich quick scheme for electrical contractors who do them.
i also think nobody wants to take on the task of investigating these issues because it is tooooo big a problem already...the eca say it is not there responsibilty and will tell you to contact the contractor responsible to fix it yourself... the ecb say they just register the contractors... the deptment of labour say they dont have man power...and other private organisations like wendy knowler and co have just never responded to my email...but i also personally dont think they could handle this massive country wide problem.

anyone want cheap coc's we dont even come to site and it will only cost you R500 this months special because i know there is no policing body so lets go wild....ooooops i forgot there is the AIA well i am not gona start with them.

[Dave A]

Wow! It's this sort of thing that gives the industry a bad name.

I find it interesting that you talk about the ECA and ECB not getting involved. There seems to be a shift in policy there.

I think DoL has always had a skilled manpower shortage to regulate the industry, but has been able to rely on the ECA and ECB to deal with the technical points raised. Certainly, many of the prohibition orders issued against electricians that I've been aware of were written up by either an ECA or ECB staffer and then pretty much rubber stamped by DoL.

Maybe the ECA and ECB is withdrawing from being judge and jury?

[Debbiedle]

This issue is one that irks and has done for years now.

I purchased a property some years ago with a coc issued. None of my 7 complaints to the company nor the estate agents were taken seriously, nor the seller were taken seriously. I finally ended up paying an independent guy that came and sorted out the problems within a day or 2. Perfect example of where throwing more time ( read money) thrown after bad money was just not worth it.

Bad news is obviously that the contractor got away with the slipshod work.

[duncan drennan]

I think Debbie raises a very valid point - RoE or Return on Effort. There were certainly issues (non coc related) during the transfer of our house, but the effort that would have been expended to be "right" was just not worth it.

I reckon that in many cases where the owner does become aware of issues with the COC that it is just simpler and less effort to leave it, or resolve it yourself. Less time, less stress, and effectively less money.

[murdock]

about 2 years ago i got fed up with sending in reports and complaining about bad workmanship and illegal coc so i tested a house made up the faults list but did do the repairs and boy was it one of those which pretty much needed a total rewire DB boards replaced etc...it wasnt 6 weeks and i got a call from the new owners lawyer... who threatened me will all sorts of legal action...i am still waiting to be procecuted...i do feel bad because the only person who suffered was the new owner who has more than likely just rewired the house to save themselves all trouble and i am still no wiser to how to resolve these issues.

you wont buy a car without having it checked out by an independent person...yet you are prepared to trust the seller with a huge investment like a property.

[Dave A]

Whoops! You lost me. You did do the repairs or didn't do the repairs?

Just check over that post again please, Murdock. Why was the new owner caught with a problem?

[murdock]

"did not do the repairs"

went back to edit but i dont how this forums works...it is not like the other forums i use you just click on edit and it gives you 5 minutes to edit...this forums the thread disappears until i re visit the site.

[duncan drennan]

went back to edit but i dont how this forums works...it is not like the other forums i use you just click on edit and it gives you 5 minutes to edit...this forums the thread disappears until i re visit the site.

Hmmm, I wonder if this is a javascript issue. Murdock, do you happen to know if javascript is enabled in your browser?

[Dave A]

Some of murdock's posts have been tripping the spam filters and have ended up in the moderation queue. They've all been approved, of course. The aim is to stop spam, not genuine contributions to the debate.

[Electrick]

Speaking from the electricians point of view : Everyone expects you to pitch
up at their house , and take a few readings with your multimeter , and then declare the place safe.

The problem is , if the place is in a bad state. 1) You can't give a certificate - wich means you'll not be paid your R 750 / whatever you ask , and 2) The owner will trip over his heels and swallow his tung if you
tell him about the state of his installation , and the R 15 000 it's gonna
cost to do it right.

So , you end up not getting paid for the Certificate , 'cause you can't
give it , and he just gets someone else who's willing to say that the
problems you pointed out is not that serious .

Excuse my spelling - I'm afrikaans.

THERE ARE STILL GOOD AND HONEST ELECTRICIANS OUT THERE.
I DON'T HAVE TO LIE TO A CLIENT TO EARN MY MONEY.

[Dave A]

That's one thing that bugs me a bit. Folks who don't want to pay for the test when you did nothing wrong other than find all the faults. The fact that you didn't issue a COC has nothing to do with it. You did the test and are entitled to payment for your services.

[murdock]

i will say it again...until the electrical industry is policed and the crimminals working in the industry are prosecuted...the man in the street will be ripped off...and as an electrical contractor in KZN i feel for the customers because we dont have any policing what so ever...i have tried all sorts of things including sending reports to the ECA...written to wendy knowler...etc...etc nobody wants to take this monster (electrical industry) on...i think there are just toooo many problems.

[Karenwhe]

As an estate agent and a property investor, I know exactly the problems from more cases than I can count by now.

I just want to know what is the solution.

We do not give kickbacks to electricians or anyone else for that matter, but the problem with electricians that give cocs like that is persistent.

I am sure that many good electricians won't lie, but take me for example, I don't understand this stuff. How will I know I am dealing with a good electrician or a bad one that will just take money and not do the job properly?

And since we talk about money the public wouldn't know if they are charges 10K for a good reason or a ripoff, that is why I think they opt for the cheap. What do they know anyway, I don't for sure.

I would love to know that. I am dealing with many investors that buy property and they don't have a clue is the coc is right or wrong.

When they ask me in the forum and say stuff doesn't work the coc couldn't have possibly be done properly or they get their own electrician and say that - I tell them to turn to the legal system. But the legal system is just not worth the money to sue the seller or the electrician it costs too much. Most rather fix it and move on.

So, guys what is the solution to the common person that is not an electrician?

Oh, and one more thing. I have heard recently of two different opposite statements of how long does a coc last (the difference were between Gauteng and KZN, is there really a difference between the provinces?)

Thanks.

P.S. as a side note, i don't know who regulates the electrician profession, but have you ever tried to deal with the lawyers regulatory bodies? Might as well give up before you get started.

[Dave A]

I could spend all day answering that post, Karen. I'm going to come back to in it bits as I get the chance.

I used to do a session for estate agent training that used to cover these very points. But to kick things off:

The root problem is the size of the gap between expectation and realisation.

• The seller is going, and really just wants to get out of there as cheaply as possible. Any extra cost is a nuisance or more. If it works, it must be OK. If they aren't aware of a problem, it doesn't exist and you just created it. (All I want is the certificate).
• The purchaser is getting the property, and wants the equivalent of a flawless building, even if it is obviously a "renovators dream." Basically, they expect everything to work as if it were brand new. After all, they've just bought it. (Where is my warranty).
• The electrician must check and test to ensure that the installation is up to regulatory standard. That does not mean that everything works, and the standard applicable might not be the current standard. Further, those regulations themselves can be tricky to interpret at times. (I wonder if this is going to bite me in the ass one day).
• The estate agent wants the sale to go through - but they don't always apply the right priorities to maximise their chances. (Where is my commission).
• The conveyancor has to execute strictly according to contract and law. (In the case of electrical) The contract and law requires an electrical COC to be issued. I've got one. (The requirement has been met).

More on this later.

[Yvonne]

The original intention of the COC was to protect the new owner.

The unintended consequences are that the new owner believes he has the assurance that the electrical installation is within an acceptable range of compliance.

However this is not so, case after case.

We had the identical circumstances - certificate issued prior to carrying out the work! to hasten the transfer.
We got our own electrician in to do a report, lots wrong!

Why not "shift" the responsibility from the seller solely to being the buyers responsibility to control the inspection, and then ensure the remedial work is carried out, the benefit is that they will know exactly what costs are involved, and the buyer can try to ensure that the work is carried out as per the quotation.

Everyone should include a clause in the sale offer for property that the offer is subject to certain inspections - proof provided that all alterations and additions have passed and approved plans, electrical inspection certificate obtained by the buyer, and just to be safe engineers inspection and approval as well.

To cut a long story short, we purchased a pretty house, with what appeared like a sturdy carport, which had an entertainment area at the back of the house.

To date we have had to demolish the carport - exceptionally unsafe, and demolish the additions, completely not according to plans neither structurally nor in compliance with boundary restrictions.
Legal costs for dealing with all the professionals involved as well as demolishing costs have amounted to approx R50,000
We now sit with a very unattractive home, and still have to have plans drawn, submitted and passed and then the rebuid.

We managed to halt the transfer until we reached an agreement, got R100,000 towards restitution, but this is not going to replace the visual aspect of the home as it was when we purchased it.
We could not "fight" for more funds as there was a clause which did not confer tenancy regardless of the "fault" of either party.
So basically whilst we had a legal right to hold up the transfer they had the right to evict us! Also the estate agent (Had a strong relationship with the family selling the home!) had given us the wording of the clauses which we insisted on - legal opinion was that the wording was suspect and we could potentially lose the case if it went to court.
So never, ever trust an estate agent - apologies to all the decent estate agents around.

The lawyer actually asked me, where on earth I had got the idea that the estate agent was going to have our best interest in mind, let alone ensure that she was taking care of our bet interest!!! So - take care.

Eventually we just had to settle for whatever we were offered.

We have had a few problems with our electrics - and my husband wants to have an entire rewire carried out.

So, forget any hope of getting a fair situation, and take the responsibility for ensuring you are fully aware of the potential costs of remedial electrical work yourself - no-one else cares!!!

Apologies for sounding so negative - but experience comes at a high cost!!