[Question] Stove connection

[serial5228]

Hi all

What is the rules with connecting a stove via earth leakage, or not earth leakage. I am having a debate with someone who says it's not required to connect a stove on earth leakage.

I know under 6.16.3.3 there's a note saying that if you use a stove coupler, earth leakage protection is not required.

[GCE]

There is no requirement for ELU on a stove circuit unless the stove has a 16amp socket outlet on it which used to be the case in the " old days" where a socket outlet was incorporated into the isolator and used for the extraction fan
The note around the stove coupler is to ensure that it is not read as a 3 phase socket .
If you read the complete section 6.16.3.2 it only refers to a dedicated circuit.

In my Opinion , You lost the debate and again in my opinion it was never really a debatable subject - But take my comment with a pinch of salt , I have been told I am over powering

[skatingsparks]

But if its a free standing stove its a different story.
Anyone ever seen a stove coupler?

[GCE]

Stove couplers were pretty standard items , I have not used one in a while as most are not built in ovens.
Have attached a link to a photo of one

https://ecasa.co.za/technical/connecting-free-standing-cooking-appliances-applying-the-regulations/

[Derlyn]

Good morning

Yes, we still install them regularly on domestic installations. Available at ALL electrical wholesalers in our area.

Peace out ... Derek

[Dave A]

Looking at that article you linked to, Graham - at the Edition 3 update presented by Anthony last month I understood the stove coupler requirement was disappearing...
Did I mishear or misunderstand that?

[ians]

Stove couplers were pretty standard items , I have not used one in a while as most are not built in ovens.
Have attached a link to a photo of one



https://ecasa.co.za/technical/connec...e-regulations/

This becomes and interesting topic ...especially when you go into places like KFC fast food outlets ... when i enquired about all the 3 phase 5 pin sockets outlets which are generally positioned in the most ridiculous of places (right above or behind the chicken and chip friers) Which catch on fire on occassion ... yet they are not on earth leakage ... i was informed that they have "special permission".

I decided to stop doing work at these outlets for safety reasons ... the electrical design engineer who offers specs for these outlets ... should actualy go into one of the outlets after 6 months of operation ... take a little responsibilty for the design ... and come up with a better safer solution ... starting with moving the 3 phase 5 pin socket outlets from behind the frier ... personally ... i would like to see a weather proof IP 67 enclosure behind the appliance ... fed from a common enclosure out of the actual cooking area ... with isloators clearly labelled identifying each circuit and appliance ... with a control circuit feeding IP 67 emergency stop buttons for each appliance or 1 to shutdown all the appliances in the cooking area ... by the way ... the cable from the weather proof box should be oil resistant and heat resistant.

[ians]

Looking at that article you linked to, Graham - at the Edition 3 update presented by Anthony last month I understood the stove coupler requirement was disappearing...
Did I mishear or misunderstand that?

Dont feel bad Dave ... most of the regulations in the electrical standards seem to be misunderstood

I am still trying to figue out why we have SABS and other parts of the world have edition 18 ... the internet has turned what use to be a big big place into a small open environment ... surely what is safe for the UK should apply to SA and visa versa ... the plastic DB is a good example ... why can you not install a plastic DB in the UK ...yet in SA we pump them out a dime a dozen ... i dont have time to go into RCDs and earth leakage units ... but i am sure you get point.

[ians]

Looking at SA electrical contractor Jan feb 2019 page 22 -labelling ...just imagine if ECA members did workmanship that even ressembled something like that ... we would be on the right track to fixing a bottomless pit ... I do believe in miracles

[GCE]

Looking at that article you linked to, Graham - at the Edition 3 update presented by Anthony last month I understood the stove coupler requirement was disappearing...
Did I mishear or misunderstand that?

Dave - maybe misheard - Just had a look at the draft Ed3 and pasted the clause from draft ED3 below - Does not appear to change
With regards to Ians statement over the standard 3 phase socket in KFC - The clause covers that - it needs ELU.All the KFC and Hungry lions that we do have 3 phase ELU - We use the combined units and each socket has a ELU unit.


6.16.3.3 Stove connection
6.16.3.3.1 A stove designed to be a free-standing appliance rated
above 16 A shall be connected through
a) a stove coupler which shall comply with SANS 60309-1 and of
dimensions as given in SANS 337 (a maximum of 45 A single-phase and
16 A per phase for three phase), or
NOTE 1 Earth leakage protection is not required for the stove circuit when a
stove coupler is used.
NOTE 2 For a three-phase coupler, the earth connection needs special
consideration.
b) a socket-outlet that complies with SANS 60309-1 (industrial type) with
30 mA earth leakage protection, however, the use of industrial type
socket-outlets is not recommended for stove connections.
6.16.3.3.2 The stove connections shall be of hard wiring to the stove
terminals, by means of a flexible arrangement, which are mechanically
secured and be terminated on either end. When the stove is removed, the
hard wiring has to be removed.

[ians]

Dave - maybe misheard - Just had a look at the draft Ed3 and pasted the clause from draft ED3 below - Does not appear to change
With regards to Ians statement over the standard 3 phase socket in KFC - The clause covers that - it needs ELU.All the KFC and Hungry lions that we do have 3 phase ELU - We use the combined units and each socket has a ELU unit.


6.16.3.3 Stove connection
6.16.3.3.1 A stove designed to be a free-standing appliance rated
above 16 A shall be connected through
a) a stove coupler which shall comply with SANS 60309-1 and of
dimensions as given in SANS 337 (a maximum of 45 A single-phase and
16 A per phase for three phase), or
NOTE 1 Earth leakage protection is not required for the stove circuit when a
stove coupler is used.
NOTE 2 For a three-phase coupler, the earth connection needs special
consideration.
b) a socket-outlet that complies with SANS 60309-1 (industrial type) with
30 mA earth leakage protection, however, the use of industrial type
socket-outlets is not recommended for stove connections.
6.16.3.3.2 The stove connections shall be of hard wiring to the stove
terminals, by means of a flexible arrangement, which are mechanically
secured and be terminated on either end. When the stove is removed, the
hard wiring has to be removed.

Do you use a 30 mA ... 30 amp earth leakage with overcurrent protection ...4 mm wire and mount the sockets behind the chip/chicken frier?

I went back and checked projects completed ... 2014 was the last KFC we worked on ... wow ... 6 years ago ... time flies ... I am asuming they have revised the standard since then ... non of the KFC's we wired had earth leakage protection on any of the 3 phase sockets.

Do they still use those black tiles that you need to get a hilti diamond core drill to mount stuf ? We tried everything to drill holes in that black tile ... even tried a 500 ml water bottle with a small hole to cool the bit.

[GCE]

ians;156139]Do you use a 30 mA ... 30 amp earth leakage with overcurrent protection ...4 mm wire and mount the sockets behind the chip/chicken frier?

Yes or use a 63 amp unit and feed to 32 amp CB - use 6sqmm and mount behind the fryers - They need to be able to unplug for cleaning and quick replacement

Do they still use those black tiles that you need to get a hilti diamond core drill to mount stuf ? We tried everything to drill holes in that black tile ... even tried a 500 ml water bottle with a small hole to cool the bit.

We also use the cheap tile bit that looks like an arrow - Sometimes works better than the Hilti bit -

[Dave A]

6.16.3.3.2 The stove connections shall be of hard wiring to the stove
terminals, by means of a flexible arrangement, which are mechanically
secured and be terminated on either end. When the stove is removed, the
hard wiring has to be removed.

Clearly that's the bit Anthony was referring to. I may be mistaken, but am pretty sure he also said the coupler requirement was disappearing. Although reading his article I see this is something he has been calling for and may have been wishful thinking on his part.

[skatingsparks]

Stove couplers were pretty standard items , I have not used one in a while as most are not built in ovens.
Have attached a link to a photo of one



https://ecasa.co.za/technical/connec...e-regulations/

I phone pretty much every wholesaler within pretty big radius of Jo'burn (30 plus including the voltex, acdc dynamics, ARB etc plus a load of independents). None could get me (if they had even heard of) a stove coupler.

Phoned ECA, as I also saw their articles on this subject, and asked where am i supposed to get them from. Said they hadn't seen one in years - apparently the manufacturer had closed long ago. Asked for suggestion and was told its very hard to get them so they said best to use industrial socket via double pole with earth leakage protection.

For the flats which have free standing stoves, that's what I'm doing.

Sorted.

[Derlyn]

Hi All

Can anyone explain to this toppie why a free standing stove connected via a stove coupler need not be on earth leakage, but the same stove connected via an industrial plug ( welding plug as I know it to be known ) must be on earth leakage. I am trying, without success, to see the logic.

Here, I am talking about a domestic installation where the chances of any other appliance being plugged into the socket is pretty much close to zero.

Peace out ... Derek.