Earth leakage trips everytime loadshedding ends

[rodga]

@Rodga

The fact that you cannot re create the fault with the main switch seems to indicate that the fault is NOT on your installation but is caused by an unwanted characteristic on the supply when switched on by the supplier after loadshedding.

What that characteristic is, is hard to say, but I suppose it is either spikes, high voltage or something luke that in which case the delayed energising of your supply by means of a contactor will solve the problem.

I do not know of a plug and play unit available but one can make up a unit using a contactor and a fridge safe unit that is sold by Ellies. Install a dedicated plug close to the db that is supplied directly from the main switch through the necessary circuit breaker.

Now plug the fridge safe unit into that plug. When the power comes on after loadshedding, this unit checks the supply for any abnormalities before turning on the output. This output is used to energise the contactor that turns the mains on to everything else including the earth leakage relay. The fridge safe has a monitoring period of about 3 minutes so your load shedding will be 3 minutes longer than your neighbours.

There is the added advantage that this unit constantly checks the supply and should there be any abnormality at any time, it will disconnect your installation from the supply and re connect automatically again after 3 minutes should the supply be back to normal.

Hope this helps

Peace out .. Derek.

Hi Derek, yesterday during load shedding I dropped the mains switch and waited for power to be restored before turning it on again. Everything turned on as expected without any issues.
I do think splitting the loads over 2 elcb will still be useful which will enable us to isolate any faults easier.

Is what @ians mentioned earlier, the trip connect unit, not the same thing you are recommending?
I googled trip conncet unit and this is what I found:

https://surgeprotection.co.za/products/12-00407-trip-connect-single-phase

[Derlyn]

Hi Derek, yesterday during load shedding I dropped the mains switch and waited for power to be restored before turning it on again. Everything turned on as expected without any issues.
I do think splitting the loads over 2 elcb will still be useful which will enable us to isolate any faults easier.

Is what @ians mentioned earlier, the trip connect unit, not the same thing you are recommending?
I googled trip conncet unit and this is what I found:
https://surgeprotection.co.za/produc...t-single-phase

I personally don't think it's going to solve the problem.
Your 2 earth leakages are still going to be subjected to the same incoming supply which is the suspected cause of the trip. Installing an extra earth leakage is only going to solve the problem if the problem can be re created with the mains switch thus proving that the fault is actually on the installation.
Anyway, It will be interesting to know the outcome.

The trip connect does basically the same as the fridge safe unit.
One will still require a contactor irrespective of which one you use.

Spec sheet of fridge safe unit:

http://e-systems.co.za/System/FabSheets/4FEAFG16.pdf

A tv safe unit can also be used. In my opinion, a better option.

The spec sheet of the tv safe unit:

http://e-systems.co.za/System/FabSheets/2FEATVG16.pdf

Keep us posted.

Peace out .. Derek.

Edited 17.51 to include tv safe specs.

[ians]

Not the same thing ... the trip connect is installed at the mains ... we had a stage were neutrals were being stolen in the sub station ... the trip was correct device for that application ... this fridge device is something else.

A word of warning ... if you buy surge protection devices for you computer fridge or whatever ... if you want to qualify for the damage claim ... YOU MUST REGISTER the product.

https://www.ellies.co.za/product/fridge-safe/

[Derlyn]

Not the same thing ... the trip connect is installed at the mains ... we had a stage were neutrals were being stolen in the sub station ... the trip was correct device for that application ... this fridge device is something else.

A word of warning ... if you buy surge protection devices for you computer fridge or whatever ... if you want to qualify for the damage claim ... YOU MUST REGISTER the product.



https://www.ellies.co.za/product/fridge-safe/

If either the fridge safe or the tv safe sees no neutral, neither of them will turn on the supply. So they do also check for a lost neutral.
I don't know where you picked up that they need to be registered. Registered with who ?

If you use either of them, it should not be necessary to claim for damages ....

I'm speaking under correction but Justloadit has a similar product and it will be interesting to hear his take.

Peace out ... Derek

[Dylboy]

Very cool and good info on those two devices ! I have for awhile wanted to look into this stuff as had a few clients with the Neutral stollen. Was looking at relays but this two seem to tick boxes which is great.
Thank you gents !

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk

[Justloadit]

If either the fridge safe or the tv safe sees no neutral, neither of them will turn on the supply. So they do also check for a lost neutral.
I don't know where you picked up that they need to be registered. Registered with who ?

If you use either of them, it should not be necessary to claim for damages ....

I'm speaking under correction but Justloadit has a similar product and it will be interesting to hear his take.

Peace out ... Derek

Thank you for the reference, yes I call it a FridgeGuard.
Any unit that can detect a voltage window will probably work.

[ians]

Thank you for the reference, yes I call it a FridgeGuard.
Any unit that can detect a voltage window will probably work.

Post links so people can see your products ... and keep posting them so we dont forget.

[ians]

Trip connect ... surge protection plug ... fridge/TV guards and you wont need insurance ... not that cover electrical surges ... unless you can prove there was lightning on that day ...it hit your house and the damage is so serve that every burnt beyond repair.

Check the box for registration requirements on the surge products ... we have had a few very unhappy customers who bought surge plugs advertising R30 000 cover in big writing across the box so clear you can ready it as you enter the isle in the super market ... then you need to get your glasses or magnifying glass yo read the small print ... which includes registering the product.

[rodga]

Thank you for the reference, yes I call it a FridgeGuard.
Any unit that can detect a voltage window will probably work.

Link please

[Justloadit]

Here is a short brochure
Fridge Guard

[ians]

Imagine ... load shedding starting again today ... I get a call from my house ... power switched on a 4pm ... the earth leakage unit tripped and wont switch on.

I get home a half and hour later and try switch it on ... trip ... trip ...trip ... yip I have got a CBI earth leakage ... time to upgrade and dump the CBI crap ... there is no way on this earth I am wasting R820 on a replacement CBI leakage when I can buy a fully populated DB with a main switch ... earth leakage ... geyser combo with 10 and 20 maps breakers for R400.

please dont tell me the price of the CBI ElL unit is so ridiculous because of the quality ... then maybe I should show you my box of CBI junk.

[ians]

By the way ... when the power eventually did switch on ... I noticed my lights were flickering ... so I have connected the fluke PQA and want to see what happens when the power switch off and back again.

Set for dips and swells and transients ... we load shed from 4-6 tomorrow ... that 6 am switching is gonna be interesting considering everyone is getting ready for work.

Lunches are already made .... geyser will switch on between 2 and 4 to make sure the water is hot and all the lights will be hooked in place ready for the morning buzz.

[Derlyn]

Ian I agree. I do not buy CBI period.

For Samite boards, Swan is good and they the same size as CBI.

Lear and Ausma are also good but they need more slots, so when space in the DB is not a problem, I go for them.

For Din rail, I stick with Chint. Never let me down.

One thing I must say is that when it comes to geyser timers, I have found that CBI timers last the longest. In fact I only use CBI for geyser timers. No relay needed. Fit that timer and forget about it. Touch wood, I haven't had one fail yet. It's the QAT - TRDM timer and fits both Samite and Din rail boards.

Peace out ... Derek

[ians]

I have in the past (a couple of years ago) connected my fluke 435 to check for transient spikes ... none were detected ... so I have never bothered to do another test.

Then I started reading posts about earth leakage units trips when load shedding was restored (you woudlnt know if it happened when it switched off) during the same period getting call outs for tripping earth leakage units ... all the call outs I attended to have been CBI units.

I had an issue at home a couple weeks ago during load shedding ... earth leakage tripping (I have a CBI unit ... the new skinny one) ... but it only happed twice.

Yesterday I got a call to say the earth leakage was tripping and wouldnt reset ... I got home a half an hour later and tried to reset it ... went through the procedure ... still tripped ...eventually after numerous attempts it stayed up.

It was time to connect the 435 again ... Well heres the bad news ... it recoded 8 transient events at 4 am just before the power actually switched off and then 11 transient events while the power was attempting to re- energise ... the transients are everything from distorted wave forms to spike within the wave form ... transients on the neutral etc etc etc.

Why suddenly now ... could it be that the grid has deteriorated so much that even the load shedding can sustain the load ... People talk of a total collapse ... I never thought it would be a reality ... unitl I started view the events recorded ... I am not an electrical engineer ... but from more than 15 years of using the 435 ... have never seen a waveform distort in this manner ... it indicate to me that the grid cannot cope with the switching on an off of the power.

People are asking if a lightning arrestor will resolve the issues ... and how can they prevent it ... my only suggestion would be to switch go and switch off every device and then you main switch before load shedding ... then wait a couple of minutes once the power is restored ... before you switch on again ... but it is also not that simple ... if there are these kind of transient spikes on the neutral ... which is bonded to the earth ... it could be a little more complicated.

I would say rather makes sure you have the correct insurance cover ... apparently you need to be insured for all surges ... not lightning surges ... a customer lost a R230 000 claim because they proved that there was no lightning on the day of the power surge ... cause unknown ... it every single electronic device in the building the entire road.

[ians]

Ian I agree. I do not buy CBI period.

For Samite boards, Swan is good and they the same size as CBI.

Lear and Ausma are also good but they need more slots, so when space in the DB is not a problem, I go for them.

For Din rail, I stick with Chint. Never let me down.

One thing I must say is that when it comes to geyser timers, I have found that CBI timers last the longest. In fact I only use CBI for geyser timers. No relay needed. Fit that timer and forget about it. Touch wood, I haven't had one fail yet. It's the QAT - TRDM timer and fits both Samite and Din rail boards.

Peace out ... Derek

I only use the ASC for geysers ... 30 amp rating ... are they going to last ... only time will tell ... its new product.

What I can tell you ... there is already an issue with the new batch just released ... the light doesnt work the same ... blue on to indicate linked and switched off ... blue with a flashing red light to indicate linked and switch on.

The new ASC look like a reject batch ... you cant even see when the blue light is flashing fast to link to the wifi ... I am told this is how they now work ... I call it bullshyte ... something has gone wrong with the batch and they just saying that that to unload.