COC and test report

[ians]

I might have a solution for the 4 page COC ... just cut 2 pages off ... lets see how long it takes for anyone to realise it ... because it seems the only way people can tell old from new is by the amount of pages

[ians]

I made a point of asking customers for a copay of their COC today ... that's where the fight started.

A question to every single person reading this thread ... can you produce a valid COC right now ?

Do you know what it looks like and how pages it has ...

A white 1 page document or

a 2 page yellow document .. with white documents attached or

A 4 page yellow document with a bunch of white pages attached or

is it a copy of a COC or the original ...

do you know who is suppose to keep the original...

your the attorney ...

the estate agent ...

the tenant in your property ...

you as the owner?

IF you cant answer these simple questions ... who do you feel should be responsible for answering these simple questions ?

Do you know is responsible for your electrical installation ... your electrician who works on your property ?

Who do you call and report a dodgy COC ?

Who do call to verify your electrician is is registered ... the DOL ... the ECA ... the ECB ... your local electrical wholesaler ?

How do you know if the semi skilled staff dropped off on site are suitably qualified to install conduits ... chase walls or wire the building ... are they wearing an Id with their qualification ?

All of us electrician reading this know the answer to all these question ... do you as a property owner or tenant know any of the answers ?

Do you feel the electrical industry should create more awareness .. or do you feel there is enough information ?

There are plenty more question ... these will give me an idea if is just me getting old and grumpy or is there is a real problem.

[sytcee]

I made a point of asking customers for a copay of their COC today ... that's where the fight started.

A question to every single person reading this thread ... can you produce a valid COC right now ?

Do you know what it looks like and how pages it has ...

A white 1 page document or

a 2 page yellow document .. with white documents attached or

A 4 page yellow document with a bunch of white pages attached or

is it a copy of a COC or the original ...

do you know who is suppose to keep the original...

your the attorney ...

the estate agent ...

the tenant in your property ...

you as the owner?

IF you cant answer these simple questions ... who do you feel should be responsible for answering these simple questions ?

Do you know is responsible for your electrical installation ... your electrician who works on your property ?

Who do you call and report a dodgy COC ?

Who do call to verify your electrician is is registered ... the DOL ... the ECA ... the ECB ... your local electrical wholesaler ?

How do you know if the semi skilled staff dropped off on site are suitably qualified to install conduits ... chase walls or wire the building ... are they wearing an Id with their qualification ?

All of us electrician reading this know the answer to all these question ... do you as a property owner or tenant know any of the answers ?

Do you feel the electrical industry should create more awareness .. or do you feel there is enough information ?

There are plenty more question ... these will give me an idea if is just me getting old and grumpy or is there is a real problem.

Hence my input that we must find ways of writing more. Technical fields are not heavily by authors or researchers. Could be, it's not worthy their time or that they are not capacitated or rather acquainted with the knowledge.

From this Forum, people to authoritatively write, opine, critique and publish our work. Or at least how we know it.

So it begins with anyone reading this. Let's [emoji871]

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[Derlyn]

I must be honest. Sorry guys.

I still prefer the 4 page COC and test report.

Section 3 of the new test report is in my opinion inferior to that of the 4 page document.

All that could have been added to the 4 page document is Neutral Loop Impedance Test.

Other than that, nothing has changed, other than certain items being omitted.

Like I said, this is my personal opinion.

To me it seems as if the standards are lowering.

I just cannot grasp the fact that the 4 page COC and test report is no longer acceptable.

Anyway, I'm old school and prefer to supply as much information as possible on a test report.

Peace out .. Derek.

[Derlyn]

There has also been whispers coming out that the insurance industry is looking at insisting on a copy of the contractors public liability policy being attached to the COC before they will accept that COC . They want to know that they can sue and collect the money in the case of a fire etc.
:[/I]

I have declined doing COC jobs as soon as it has come to my attention that the client needs a COC in order to ensure that his/her place is not gonna catch fire and burn to the ground.

Nobody, but nobody can guarantee that there will not be a fire caused by an electrical fault anytime in the future.

I point this out to the prospective clients and if they are not happy with this, I walk away.
They must rather find someone else who can give them an anti fire guarantee.

Peace out .. Derek

[Dylboy]

I have a feeling they have dumbed down the certificate as to have more scapegoats of registered electricians. By this I mean more loop holes not to prosecute the signing electrician.

Electrics gone wrong is a firm favorite for fires and the spark who signed it is always under the whip.

Case ans point, a buddy one morning saw smoke coming from the roof, went and saw the geyser was smoking. Turns out the isolator was melting. He the says why did this happen as he has a CoC...... been living there for 5 years.... I could not believe he thought the CoC would exempt his house from fires. Well educated buddy of mine.

I do put this down to not understanding and not being made aware

Same crap of... it worked yesterday or why is my tap leaking now when I used it 5 mins ago it was fine.... well maybe the tap can handle 1 million operations and you just did 1 million and 1.


Just an opinion.



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[sytcee]

I must be honest. Sorry guys.

I still prefer the 4 page COC and test report.

Section 3 of the new test report is in my opinion inferior to that of the 4 page document.

All that could have been added to the 4 page document is Neutral Loop Impedance Test.

Other than that, nothing has changed, other than certain items being omitted.

Like I said, this is my personal opinion.

To me it seems as if the standards are lowering.

I just cannot grasp the fact that the 4 page COC and test report is no longer acceptable.

Anyway, I'm old school and prefer to supply as much information as possible on a test report.

Peace out .. Derek.

We process a lot of COCs per day. The 4 pager was a nightmare for most electricians, some with big titles and donkey years of experience.

One called themselves the Inspection Authority only to discover it was a 20 year old habit.

My opinion would rather be, get rid of all unnecessary requirements and only ask the relevant info.

More info can always be attached as extra reports or Annexures in the form of pictures, schematics, layouts, etc. All of those issuing CoCs should at least attempt to create a portfolio of evidence that in any court, your case is believable.

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[Dylboy]

I also find that if we want to do an absolute cracker of an inspection and test and draw schematics and have a proper electrical portfolio that we can not as mostly the people who require a CoC are selling their house and the CoC is a tick box excrsize so the cheapest is best.

Also tbe seller needs the CoC so they see it as get the cheapest to get the box ticked and if stuff hits the fan then the property is sold and no longer their issue and on the sparky who signed it....

Even if we want to do a good report we can't as client wants cheap cheap.

Not every client is like this but I see it very often and we get told we are way out as some guy can do the 4 bed plot for R1K... the client does not know that the paper is worth nothing with regards to the info but they happy as a pig as its so cheap and the sale can go through...

Anyway bit of a rant as well so thanks for reading

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[ians]

I got a call form a customer a couple months ago ... requested a COC ... I informed him that I couldnt do it for under R10k as a mate ... he found someone to do it for R3k ... I told him to pay the upfront and get the COC ASAP before the person changes him mind ... the house is sold and new owners already moved in ... the new owner has a COC ... has armed response ... so he is covered by insurance ... what more do you need ? Everyone is happy

[ians]

As I have mentioned on more than one occasion ... if you going to invest R1M + and trust the seller ... you cant blame anyone for your stupidity.

[Dave A]

I am master electrician and I have never seen any COC other than the 4 pages ... how scary is that ... so a really stupid question how do people who dont even work in the industry know what a COC looks like ... and people wonder why this industry is in such a F$%^ mess

Maybe whoever is responsible and I would assume it is the DOL ... should try a little public awareness ... thank goodness electricity is not dangerous.

May I be blunt and say it is the Registered Person's responsibility to keep up to date with the legislative changes affecting their job. i.e the registered Single Phase Tester, the Installation Electrician and the Master Installation Electrician. I also suggest the Registered Electrical Contractor should be paying attention too (if the ownership/top management happens to be someone other than the Registered Person of the enterprise).

And there is no shortage of sources.

May I suggest subscribing to Wired for starters as an easy option. It's a free twice-a-month email from the ECA SA which anyone can subscribe to (you don't have to be a member of the ECA SA) with a few top news items for the electrical contracting industry and people close to it. Whenever there is a significant change in the regulatory regime, there is sure to be an article on the subject.

I am pretty sure that Sparks does a fair job of covering important legislative updates too, but it might be less easy to spot at a glance from notifications to your inbox. (Quite often they are articles from the media office of the ECA SA anyway).

[ians]

What about the public? ... my argument is if I cant even keep up with the industry ... who is creating public awareness.

[Derlyn]

May I be blunt and say it is the Registered Person's responsibility to keep up to date with the legislative changes affecting their job. i.e the registered Single Phase Tester, the Installation Electrician and the Master Installation Electrician. I also suggest the Registered Electrical Contractor should be paying attention too (if the ownership/top management happens to be someone other than the Registered Person of the enterprise).

And there is no shortage of sources.

May I suggest subscribing to Wired for starters as an easy option. It's a free twice-a-month email from the ECA SA which anyone can subscribe to (you don't have to be a member of the ECA SA) with a few top news items for the electrical contracting industry and people close to it. Whenever there is a significant change in the regulatory regime, there is sure to be an article on the subject.

I am pretty sure that Sparks does a fair job of covering important legislative updates too, but it might be less easy to spot at a glance from notifications to your inbox. (Quite often they are articles from the media office of the ECA SA anyway).

Thanks for that, Dave. Didn't know they exist.

Sparks is great but I am having difficulty subscribing to Wired for starters.
Probably doing something wrong from my side.
Will persevere.

Thanks, Brother

Peace out .. Derek.

[Dylboy]

I too have trouble subscribing to sparks.
I really really enjoy the ECA magazine but only able to get hard copies is via head office. I download the magazines and get some past printed via their online bit. F#@k reading from my phone or laptop... printed copy all the way....for me at least.

I take pens and sticky notes to mark important stuff for future reference.

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[ians]

The reality of it all ... as indicated by responses in this thread ... the yellow COC 2 or 10 pages is not going to fix the issues ... the problem is way bigger than an inspector with 2 months experience compared to one with 20 years experience ... nor is the policing of the industry ... nor the so called grey areas people Like to use as an excuse for dodgy COC's nor that someone might have used a standard double socket and not the other silly socket ... nor the fact that I only recently updated my green book to a black book and only got the ed (3) regs a month ago.


I believe this industry has way bigger problems ... I deal with the work hands on ... I personally see what is happening in the field ... not from a airconditioned office ... or jibba jabba on a forum or feedback from teams ... I get to be the person who is called out by the customer to deal with the COC's being issued by staff who are working by the clock ...

or an the installation where I am expected to sign off a DB because the consultant doesnt trust the electrical company ... yet the DB's are only 60 % complete and the staff installing the wiring ... dont even know the difference between a single lever/2 way/ double pole isolator switch.

or remove a socket outlet to find there is no earth wire between the metal box and socket on any of the socket replaced in the entire building ... yet the COC has all the general number recoded on the COC ... when you contact the company ... the owner gets the shytes because his "teams" would never fu&^&*up so badly ... or a clever dick who has pulled the earth and cut it to use to earth fitting ... so the rest of the lights dont have earth continuity ... there are just so many issues I deal with I could keep going for hours ... a simple test with a plug tester which has 3 lights would have identified the mistake

At the end of the day ... the only person getting the short end of the stick ... yip the customer ... the sucker who thinks they getting a piece of paper which makes their house safe ... until they try sell it or call an electrician to fit a plug or connect a light ... that where the fight starts.

Out of the 8 houses I have been called to have a look at in the past 3 years ... not do an inspection ... just to look because the new owner found stuff that didnt look right ... all 8 of them had to get the company back to bring the house up to standard and spent at least 3 days doing repairs ... then there are the others which the customers have requested I just do what is needed to make it right ... then there there is the majority who just say f%^it ... I have a COC so it is covered by insurance ... it can stay like that ... then they decide to move and call me to request a COC ... I tell sorry I cannot issue a COC ... that's where the fight starts again

A question to all the companies reading this thread ... especially the ones who are dealing with COC's on a daily basis ... how often do you carry out random checks on your inspectors ?

How many estate agents especially the ones who offer the COC including in their fee ... randomly select a property and do get a different inspector to check if the COC was done correctly ?

How many companies just fill out the COC by the pile and just use the same results for all the COC's and just fill out the date address etc ... nobody will be that stupid to put their hand up ... I know of a few ... you can see by the test results on the COC ... I always request a copy of the COC before I head out to site ... you can normally see by the test results if the person has actually done the test and recorded the results.

The question is simple ... how are we going to fix the problem?