[Question] Pool pump DB, fixed appliance or sub DB

[ians]

Section 3 Fixed appliance circuits - pool pump.

Would you tick the pool pump DB as a fixed appliance or a Pool DB ?

Would you regard the pool DB, pump and pool light as a fixed appliance ?

What happens if the Poll DB has other circuit connected, like garden lights or a weather socket outlet in the garden or maybe even a gate with pillar lights?

[Dylboy]

Hello

Finally back, Tapatalk app gave me shite and also been a bit busy.

Trying to catch up on the stove isolator thread but saw this haha.

I too wish to find a definitive answer or reasoning for which ever.

I before treated each pool DB as a sub DB and got its own test report. They pretty much always fail those pool DBs for various reasons so always a headache and client says "but it works why must I pay".

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk

[Firepool]

Generally No pool company does a pool board in compliant way as they not electricians but know how to connect a breaker.Often has connector blocks and no main switch if is a sub board.Also pool pump needs it own plug as it is a fixed appliance.Mosly wired in.Pool boards...normally a mess and then you work on them timers can go funny.

[GCE]

If the pool db feeds swimming pool only - has a separate isolator mounted above the DB as required under fixed appliance then it can be a fixed appliance.

The minute you take a garden light or plug for the lawnmower from that "pool DB " it then becomes a sub DB and needs to comply to DB's

[ians]

If the pool db feeds swimming pool only - has a separate isolator mounted above the DB as required under fixed appliance then it can be a fixed appliance.

Something I have never seen ... an isolator above the DB ... mainly because the Pool DB has a main switch pre wired in the DB ... so if there is no isolator before the DB its a Sub DB.

[Dave A]

If the pool db feeds swimming pool only - has a separate isolator mounted above the DB as required under fixed appliance then it can be a fixed appliance.

The minute you take a garden light or plug for the lawnmower from that "pool DB " it then becomes a sub DB and needs to comply to DB's

That's been my understanding, except using the term "control panel" when it is not a DB
Could there also be a lockable isolator in the supplying DB rather than an isolator within arms reach of the control panel?
(Yes. Yes. I know "lockable isolators" are another can of worms )

[Dylboy]

Hahaha also thought of the lockable CB hahaha. But yes if we change the name to a control panel then it would not need a VoC as a sub DB as far as I know...?

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk

[ians]

So lets clear this up

A pool DB, pump and light fed from a safety transformer can be regarded as an appliance ... which would exclude it from the COC ... yes (provided it is fed from a double pole isolator which is not located in the pool DB)

however if you add garden lights, a spare socket outlet for the lawn mower etc it would then be deemed a "SUB DB" and included as part of the COC.

If you are a smart sparkie you will fit a combo breaker/isolator (all circuit breakers are lockable ... because as a sparkie/inspector part of your tool kit is a lockout kit for safe isolation) in the DB labeled pool DB. Which then makes the pool guy responsible for the pool DB, pump , light etc ... one less thing for the inspector to worry about.

Just when we thought it was that easy ... what if the pool DB is on earth leakage ... will the same rules which apply for fans be used for the pool ... no double pole isolator required if it fed from earth leakage.

I can see ne w amendments coming soon.

[Dave A]

Just when we thought it was that easy ... what if the pool DB is on earth leakage ... will the same rules which apply for fans be used for the pool ... no double pole isolator required if it fed from earth leakage.

If it is a fan, it needs an isolator. The earth leakage exception applies specifically to fans incorporating a light.

[GCE]

If you are a smart sparkie you will fit a combo breaker/isolator (all circuit breakers are lockable ... because as a sparkie/inspector part of your tool kit is a lockout kit for safe isolation) in the DB labeled pool DB. Which then makes the pool guy responsible for the pool DB, pump , light etc ... one less thing for the inspector to worry about.
.

The double pole as lockable in the DB without a fixed lockable device on the circuit breaker , in my opinion will not count - How does the pool guy have a CB isolator device

With regards to COC , it is still required under 6.16.1.10 same as a light fitting is not part of the coc but if the wiring is exposed you need to rectify , eg covers missing from fluorescent channels


6.16.1.10 The wiring between different parts of a fixed appliance that are
installed separately is part of the fixed installation, even where it is supplied
from a socket-outlet, unless such wiring is less than 3 m in length.
Such wiring shall be protected by separate overload protection unless its
current-carrying capacity is such that the circuit protection of the socket-outlet
circuit will provide protection or that part of the appliance has built-in thermal
overload protection.
NOTE Where the length of wiring exceeds 3 m, the impedance and the functioning of
the protective devices need to be considered to satisfy the overcurrent protection
requirements in this part of SANS 10142.

[GCE]

That's been my understanding, except using the term "control panel" when it is not a DB
Could there also be a lockable isolator in the supplying DB rather than an isolator within arms reach of the control panel?
(Yes. Yes. I know "lockable isolators" are another can of worms )

In my opinion the isolator would need to be at the control box in the event of removal
The pool guy is not a electrician and will be the one working on the appliance.
Will he always be able to access the DB when he comes to carry out repairs ?

Could reg below come into play ,


6.16.5.1.4 Each motor shall be supplied by a manually operated disconnector
or any other manually operated disconnecting arrangement such as a
withdrawable circuit-breaker, a removable link, a fuse or by the removal of a
plug from a socket-outlet, which provides at least the same isolating distance,
for the sake of safety, as a disconnector that is
a) readily accessible and mounted on or next to the motor, or
b) visible from the motor, or
c) lockable in the open position, or
d) housed in a lockable enclosure other than a distribution board.


5.3.7 Disconnecting devices
An installation shall have disconnecting devices that allow the installation to
be disconnected for maintenance, testing, fault detection or repair. In the case
of circuits or items of equipment, additional disconnecting devices could be
required to allow disconnection for maintenance, testing, fault detection or
repair of such circuits or equipment.

5.3.8 Positioning and accessibility of electrical equipment
Electrical equipment shall be so positioned that
a) it does not impair the functioning or safety of other equipment,
b) it is readily accessible for installation, replacement, operation, testing,
inspection, maintenance and repair (see 6.6.1.9 and 6.9.4 for the main
switch). All parts of the installation shall be accessible without the need to
enter any adjoining premises (for example, in an apartment building),
NOTE Common areas (such as passages and entrance halls) are not regarded as
adjoining areas.
c) there is easy access to its location,

[ians]

I agree ... the double pole main switch of a "Pool DB" should be in a separate compartment or on the top of side of the pool DB or on the wall next to the pool pump/DB.

The pool guy shouldnt be opening the pool/ Sub DB.

It gets even more complicated ... because not all pool DB's are fed from an earth leakage ... some have the earth leakage installed in the pool DB.

In reality the pool guy shouldnt be opening the pool DB .. .the pump has a socket outlet on the side of the DB (which is why earth leakage protection is required) however the pool light creates a challenge ... the transfomer should be in a separate compartment fed from a combo breaker/isolator and I seen a few with fuses for the transfomer.

Then you have the other challenges were the pool lights are not fed from a pool DB and the pumps are part of a bigger setup.

[GCE]

I agree ... the double pole main switch of a "Pool DB" should be in a separate compartment or on the top of side of the pool DB or on the wall next to the pool pump/DB.

The pool guy shouldnt be opening the pool/ Sub DB.

.

If we do not want the pool guy opening the " pool motor control centre" , then we cannot say that the pool " DB" is a fixed appliance

Can't have it both ways .

Same a s a geyser - We want to call the geyser a fixed appliance and then want to stop the plumber from working on the fixed appliance
A stove - Same story , stove technician opens it and plays with the electrical circuit , aircon etc.

If we called it a fixed appliance then a fixed appliance can be worked on by the fixed appliance technician, In my opinion

[ians]

What I meant in my comment is that there should be away to isolate the pool DB at the pool from the mains power ... a way to do that would be to separate the incoming power from the rest of the pool DB ... by means of a double pole isolator in close proximity.


Fitting a lockable isolator in the DB creates a whole new set of challenges ... if technicians are going to work on fixed appliances ... then a separate isolator must be fitted next to the appliance or at least in the same room or roof space.

[GCE]

What I meant in my comment is that there should be away to isolate the pool DB at the pool from the mains power ... a way to do that would be to separate the incoming power from the rest of the pool DB ... by means of a double pole isolator in close proximity.


Fitting a lockable isolator in the DB creates a whole new set of challenges ... if technicians are going to work on fixed appliances ... then a separate isolator must be fitted next to the appliance or at least in the same room or roof space.

Agreed