Stove connections

[ians]

Customers calls and request a stove connection ... no problem ... you carry a piece of 6 mm twin+e in your van specifically for stove connections.

You get to site and find a piece of sprag hanging off the wall wire 2 x 6mm wires and a 4 mm wire and the isolator switched off.

Easier than you thought ... actually not really .. .the new stoves (I havent connected a stove in 10 years) dont have a 20 mm hole at the back for the sprag. The new stoves have a piece of plastic with a clamp for the twin+E.

No problem ... remove the sprag and house wire and pull in the twin+e, connect the isolator and at the terminal block, secure the piece of pvc sprag to the back of the stove with a saddle ... drill a hole in the wall for the hook and bingo done ... if only jobs were that easy.

First you find some twat have cut all the tiles to the same size as the isolator and grouted the isolator into the wall

[ians]

Then you are off to the next job because its stove week.

This one is a little different ... there is a 50 amp isolator with a 6mm wire and 40 amp breaker.


this time its a hob and undercounter oven ... thats were the challenges begins.

Do you remove the 6mm wire and pull in a 4mm for the hob and a 2.5 mm for the undercounter and hope nobody checks it while doing the test reports ( chances are nobody will check so you should be ok). or

Do you pull 2 x 4mm wires from the isolator and down grade the 40 amp to 32 amps. or

Do you leave the 6 mm and the 40 amp breaker in the board and fit a junction box under the counter and run 6 mm tails to the hob and under counter ... the new stoves dont allow space for 6 mm wire. or

No there is no option to run 4 mm twin from the DB, fit 2 x surface mount isolators and run twin to the hob and oven.

[Dylboy]

6.16.3.2.3 A cooking appliance circuit may also supply one socket-outlet if
the rating of the socket-outlet does not exceed 16 A and if the following are all
contained in one control unit (see also 6.15.4.1):
a) the socket-outlet;
b) an earth leakage protection device including overcurrent protection for
protecting the socket-outlet; and
c) the switch-disconnector required for the cooking appliance (see 6.16.1).

There is the above but would mean changing the supply to a ELU with overload...

But why not leave the 6mm? Why change to the 4mm ? I may be miss reading hahah.

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk

[ians]

Have you tried to connect 6 mmm wire to a new hob then loop it to the oven or visa versa ... gone are the days where you could terminate the sprag into the oven with plenty space to fit another piece of sprag to supply the hob.

The new stoves have a cheap crappy plastic terminal box ... not suitable for 2 x 6 mm twin cables.

[Dylboy]

Ahhhh ok I see hahaha.

Similar to the GU10 downlogjt connectors.... forget about a looping and out at fitting with that stuff hahaha.

Sent from my SM-N960F using Tapatalk

[Derlyn]

Then you are off to the next job because its stove week.

This one is a little different ... there is a 50 amp isolator with a 6mm wire and 40 amp breaker.


this time its a hob and undercounter oven ... thats were the challenges begins.

Do you remove the 6mm wire and pull in a 4mm for the hob and a 2.5 mm for the undercounter and hope nobody checks it while doing the test reports ( chances are nobody will check so you should be ok). or

Do you pull 2 x 4mm wires from the isolator and down grade the 40 amp to 32 amps. or

Do you leave the 6 mm and the 40 amp breaker in the board and fit a junction box under the counter and run 6 mm tails to the hob and under counter ... the new stoves dont allow space for 6 mm wire. or

No there is no option to run 4 mm twin from the DB, fit 2 x surface mount isolators and run twin to the hob and oven.

@ Ians

I always have a shroud and 2 of 20Amp din rail breakers handy for those jobs.
6mm or 4mm into top of breakers. 2,5mm FTE from each breaker ... 1 to hob, other to oven.
Makes for easy connecting on those small terminals provided on oven and hob.
Mount shroud under counter in a convenient spot.

Derlyn

[GCE]

@ Ians

I always have a shroud and 2 of 20Amp din rail breakers handy for those jobs.
6mm or 4mm into top of breakers. 2,5mm FTE from each breaker ... 1 to hob, other to oven.
Makes for easy connecting on those small terminals provided on oven and hob.
Mount shroud under counter in a convenient spot.

Derlyn

In my opinion you would be creating a Sub DB - The DB would then need to comply and have an isolator , be accessible , comply to the heights for a residential install .

[Derlyn]

@GCE
If one were to use a small enclosure with 2 fuse holders and 20 Amp glass fuses, would that also be seen as a sub db?

Is there a way of reducing the conductor size without creating a sub db ?

Derlyn

[ians]

What I found when I arrived on site ... a piece of pvc sprag with 6 mm wires (open) with a connector block and a 2.5 mm twin wire feeding the hob.

Something to consider ... in the past if the switches were mounted on the oven ... there would be connectors mounted on the top of the oven with female plugs ... then there would be loose wires with a male connector ... in the space between the hob and the oven ...everything is open wiring ... my question then would be why did I waste my time connecting all the wires in a junction box.

In saying that ... in the past the oven and stove were secured to the counter and cupboard with the use of a tool ... so if I secure the oven and hob ... the space between the oven and hob because part of the fixed appliances ?

[ians]

@GCE
If one were to use a small enclosure with 2 fuse holders and 20 Amp glass fuses, would that also be seen as a sub db?

Is there a way of reducing the conductor size without creating a sub db ?

Derlyn

This is what I considered doing ... because working with a 6 mm wire and in a new hob or oven is ridiculous.

I also thought of mounting a galvanised box to the oven connect the 6 mm from the isolator into a one of the those fused terminals then 4mm from there to the hob and 2.5 mmm to the oven.

[ians]

Something you need to be careful ... people cut a hole in the side of the cupboard ... which would expose all the wires ... that creates a new problem ... and some people dont secure the hob nor oven ... once again makes it open wiring.

[ians]

Looking at the oven specs ... max power 11 amps ... in theory I could fit a 15 amps fuse and use 1.5 mm twin+e

The hob specs indicate max power of 29 amps ... a 30 amp fuse would be required with 4 mm wire.

At least I am in the clear ... I used a 6 mm wire into a junction box and 6 mm to each appliance ... just a mission working with the big cable ... now I know why I dont put my hand up all the time for these type of jobs.

The free standing stove max power is 35 amps ... a 40 amp mcb with 6 mm wire would be required.

[Derlyn]

ANY ADVICE WELCOME

Busy with a kitchen refurbishing job.

The plans call for a socket outlet for the gas stove / electric oven combo unit.

The stove has a plugtop.

Photo's attached.

What do I do ?

Derlyn.

[GCE]

ANY ADVICE WELCOME

Busy with a kitchen refurbishing job.

The plans call for a socket outlet for the gas stove / electric oven combo unit.

The stove has a plugtop.

Photo's attached.

What do I do ?

Derlyn.


]

The gas regs insist on a isolator which in my opinion is playing outside of their field of expertise , but unfortunately it is written as such and the gas installer could refuse to issue a gas COC . ( reg below)

If you now install a socket and the gas coc is not forthcoming then you could be held responsible to rectify at your own cost.
To me it is pathetic that they stipulate as such but it is out of our hands .

Extract from SANS 10187-1
9 Electrical equipment and other sources of ignition
Where electrical equipment is placed within the safety distance as specified in figures 3, 4 and 6
such equipment shall be in accordance with the requirements of SANS 10108.
Electrical equipment, such as light switches and plugs, shall be at least 200 mm away from any
burner and potential point of gas release. Where it is necessary to install a gas hob together with an
electric oven, a three-point plug socket shall not be used to connect the electric oven. A proper
isolator switch shall be in place above the level of the hob and it shall have at least 200 mm
clearance from the hob.
No electrical connection shall be made below the hob. See figures 3 and 4 for further connection

The electrical regulations on freestanding stoves allow a 16Amp socket if the rating of the oven is below 16Amp
I would send an email to the owner informing them of the conflict between the regulations and the possible consequences of installing a socket vs a stove isolator.
If they respond and insist on a socket at least you cannot be held responsible at a later stage if the gas guys do not want to issue a certificate .
Make sure it is in writing and keep it as a sale may go down in 12months time and it may come back to bite.


Extract from SANS 10142-1
6.16.3.3 Stove connection
6.16.3.3.1 A stove designed to be a free-standing appliance rated above 16 A
shall be connected through
a) a stove coupler which shall comply with SANS 60309-1 and of dimensions
as given in SANS 337 (a maximum of 45 A single-phase and 16 A per
phase for three phase), or
NOTE 1 Earth leakage protection is not required for the stove circuit when a stove
coupler is used.
NOTE 2 For a three-phase coupler, the earth connection needs special
consideration.
b) a socket-outlet that complies with SANS 60309-1 (industrial type) with
30 mA earth leakage protection, however, the use of industrial type socketoutlets
is not recommended for stove connections.

[Derlyn]

Total electrical power consumption is 2900 Watts. +- 12 Amps.

Have once again confirmed with the gas installers and they are happy with a socket outlet.

Next question.

When we inspect an installation to issue an ELECTRICAL COC, do we not inspect it according to SANS 10142-1 ?
If it conforms to SANS 10142 -1, Municipal bylaws, electrical regulations in OHSA and manufacturer specs, I issue the COC. It's compliant.

Should the gas guy need something altered on the electrical installation, he is welcome to make use of an electrical contractor of his choice to make the necessary changes. It does not have to be me. Seeing that he is insisting on something being altered, it's up to him or the seller to have it done.

During 2018 some time I had the same issue when a gas inspector insisted I move the isolator.
This happened after I had already delivered the COC to the transferring attorneys.

I refused.

Here is the email I sent to the attorneys after they also tried to force me. I refused.

Hi Glenda

I have noted Mr Schoeman's comments and need to respond.

Firstly, I am not being difficult ...... Let me explain.

Point 2 of removing the isolator and fitting a blank cover in it's place would cause the electrical installation to be non compliant.
It would have been possible had the distribution board been in the kitchen, but on this particular installation, the DB is in the garage.

Our regulations state that the isolator must be in the same room as the appliance.

The only other option to satisfy the gas technician, in this case, was to move the isolator.

This would have entailed the following.

Cutting into the wall with an angle grinder in order to reposition a new box and conduit. This process creates a mammoth amount of dust throughout the house. We then have to contend with claims from tenants that their expensive electronic equipment has been ruined as a result of the dust.

We then have to cement in the new enclosure and conduit and wait 2 days for same to dry before installing the isolator. After installing the isolator we have to repaint the cemented area and this often ends up with us having to paint the whole wall as a match in paint colour is virtually impossible when the existing paint is old.

Should there be tiling involved, which is often the case, we have to get a tiler to come and make good.

ALL of the above has happened to me in the past, whilst moving a stove isolator at the request of the gas technician and I have had to bear the costs.

It might sound easy on paper to just move the switch, but in practice it's not that quick and easy. There are the above ramifications that need to be taken into account. I'm talking from experience.

The gas technician is quite entitled to make use of the services of an electrician to move the isolator so as to comply with the gas laws, however, I shy away from this job for the above reasons.

I note that the gas technician has issued the gas compliance certificate with an explanatory note.

I have not read this note but sincerely hope that it does not contain the words D. Stuart or Derek's Electrical. Should my reputation be harmed in any way as a result of any explanatory note mentioning my name or my business name without my consent, there will be serious legal ramifications for whoever issued same.

Going forward, should the same circumstances as 5 Place Gonubie occur, my stance will remain the same.

Hope you understand

Kind regards ... Derek.


Never heard from them again.