Loose terminal blocks inside Samite DB?

[LightsOn]

Is it standards compliant to have a loose terminal block inside a Samite DB?





If not, do you know the names or part numbers of samite compatible terminal blocks?
(I've only been able to find DIN mount terminal blocks, looking in ACDC's catalogue and website)

[LightsOn]

Incase you're curious, the wires in this terminal block are the neutral and live wires for lights and (digital gas) geyser.
The wires are extended by the terminal block from this (original) eskom only DB to an adjacent alternative supply DB, featuring a changeover switch.

[LightsOn]

BTW
The cover for the DB fits with ease, with plenty of space to spare.
There's plenty of slack in the wires to lift the terminal block out the way to perform maintenance on the earth leakage neutral terminal-bus-bar below it, without needing to bend any wires significantly causing any strain/fatigue on them.
And there's no risk of anything shorting.

But I'm not only wanting safe, also wanting standards compliance.

[Derlyn]

Use crimping ferrules and heat shrink insulation sleeves. A lifesaver.

[Dylboy]

I can't fault it, it's a join, behind an enclosure requiring the use of a tool.

Ferrules and tape I prefer to.



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[Derlyn]

Incase you're curious, the wires in this terminal block are the neutral and live wires for lights and (digital gas) geyser.
The wires are extended by the terminal block from this (original) eskom only DB to an adjacent alternative supply DB, featuring a changeover switch.

Illegal. You are using this DB as a wireway for wires fed from elsewhere. If you switch off the main switch on this DB then ALL the wiring in this DB must be dead except of course the supply cable feeding the DB.

Take GCE's advice and make use of an electrical contractor.

[Dylboy]

I didn't even catch that bit !

So now with this new alternative supply issues then there should be 2 main switches in the DB... There is a notice that needs to be on stating to isolate at alternative place so then maybe a notice then no need to change it as a wireway ?


I.e.... to say that there is a cable that needs to be isolated at another point..


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[LightsOn]

Use crimping ferrules and heat shrink insulation sleeves. A lifesaver.

I can't fault it, it's a join, behind an enclosure requiring the use of a tool.
Ferrules and tape I prefer to.

@Derlyn @Dylboy thank you very much for your replies!

Great to receive the confirmation.

I liked the idea of the wires being visible and screws accessible, so that you can see the wires are stripped and inserted correctly and screws are tight.

I think I have PTSD from all the buildings I've been in with dodgy wiring where there were wires not tightened at all, barely tightened, or not stripped properly, or inside terminals with stripped broken screws that were unable to be tightened.

So I think perhaps I was over-emphasizing the inspectability.

But now I think splitting the terminal block into individual blocks and then heat-shrink or taping them is a good idea. At least then the pull test can be done to get an idea of tightness. And it prevents any accidental hypothetical contact.
And then if the heatshrink or tape needs to be removed and re-applied to inspect, that's ok.

[Dylboy]

Pleasure ! I like the idea of splitting it and then heat shrink over the terminal block, it can then be inspected if ever needed.

Also I was tought to never use choc blocks but then one day doing an inverter I was like "these are choc blocks " and then from there I started using them more here and there and gained some trust in them.

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[LightsOn]

Illegal. You are using this DB as a wireway for wires fed from elsewhere. If you switch off the main switch on this DB then ALL the wiring in this DB must be dead except of course the supply cable feeding the DB.
Take GCE's advice and make use of an electrical contractor.

@Derlyn Thank you! Very interesting, I didn't see your 2nd reply earlier.

I didn't even catch that bit !
So now with this new alternative supply issues then there should be 2 main switches in the DB... There is a notice that needs to be on stating to isolate at alternative place so then maybe a notice then no need to change it as a wireway ?
I.e.... to say that there is a cable that needs to be isolated at another point..

@Dylboy thank you.

Very interesting.

I could install an alternative supply pilot light in DB1 with an alternative supply notice to turn off the adjacent DB3's alternative supply isolator (DB3 is located 1 cm to the right of DB1, with pilot lights)

But I think you're right.

It's time to get a contractor to come survey the situation and provide a solution considering everything in the setup.

[Isetech]

I replace the single tier DB's with 3 tier DB's when installing inverters.

I split the essential (top row) and non essential (bottom row) and use the middle row for the "electronic relays and that stuff. Label, label and then label a bit more just in case. It is practical and look neat.

I also provide a spreadsheet with all the circuits recorded and labeled. I also provide building layouts of the all the electrical points identifying the circuits and points.

Its all part of the property commissioning.

The commissioning sheets also include a full description of the alarm system, CCTV and any other information like network points etc.

Everything from the type of alarm system, including zone locations and identification, programable outputs for security lights, gate automation.

It just makes working on site an absolute pleasure. When its time to issue the COC, I basically go to site to do a quick visual inspection to make sure nothing is damaged and carry out a few random tests and issue an updated COC.

The best part is the new owners electrician, gate, alarm, CCTV, network, pool guy etc, all have a full history of any repairs, manuals for every item installed on site. Even the system date of installation, so if for example FLA batteries are used for the inverter, you know if the installation was done 3 years ago, you will be replacing them in the next few months. Silly things like, we had a warranty claim on some electrical components, a label is fitted to the component so that if someone else takes over from us, they can see the replacement date and get the product replaced if with in the 2 year warranty.

The CCTV system you can check when the latest firmware was installed, everything is documented.

Some people say we are expensive, you get what you pay.

[LightsOn]

@Isetech, I like how organized you are and how well you document things. It sounds like you're an absolute pleasure to work with.

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I also like to put a warranty expiry label on boxes that are kept, and the paper receipt/invoice (that has been digitally scanned, so the digital copy is kept) so it's easy to know when to throw the boxes out, and also easy to do a warranty claim if the item fails.

I've sent my contractor a msg asking him to come through next week, but in the mean time, I'd be interested to discuss the following with you guys, and I'll discuss it with my contractor when he arrives.

The reason is it seems common for there to be varying knowledge of the latest rules among contractors and also multiple interpretations or different emphasis of rules.

So I'd like to be as informed as possible when I discuss with my contractor.

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@Isetech thanks for sharing the great idea regarding the multi-level DB. I didn't think of that!
DB3 wouldn't actually go to waste. I would re-use it for something else.
So the cost of the DB would effectively be free.
Then it's just adding mains isolator, stove, EL, 3x plugs. Bobs ur uncle.
Not very costly at all, and a viable, neat option.

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Regarding the possibility of resolving the geyser and lights wireway issue through DB1 into DB3,

I had another look at DB1 and I've had the best (realistic) possible luck there!

The wires for the geyser and lights that were stuffed behind the samite rail are actually really long. Plenty long enough to run directly out of DB1 and into DB3 on the right, without needing any wire joins inside DB1. So there would never be any live alternative supply terminals/joins inside DB1.

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But @Derlyn said running these alternate supply powered wires through DB1 (using DB1 as a wireway) to get to DB3, is forbidden.
@Derlyn do you perhaps know the SANS clause that says this is forbidden. I'd like to learn the specifics of that?

I've looked in SANS 10142-1:2017 Edition 2, in particular section 6.6.1, and clauses 4 and 5 and also mentions of wireways, and did not find what you're referring to.

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So assuming DB1 cannot be a wireway for alternative supplied geyser and lights wires, fair enough. A piece of conduit and appropriate couplings could carry these wires in and immediately out of DB1, into DB3. Thus the conduit would be the wireway, and DB1 would not be a wireway for these wires.

I reviewed the SANS 10142-1:2017 Edition 2 rules regarding flexible conduit (because that would be the easiest to work with and position). It says not to bury flexible conduit inside concrete, unless the conduit is specifically designed for that purpose.
I wouldn't need to bury the additional conduit in concrete. There can be a simple hole between the 2 DB's that the flexible conduit runs through.
The hole that the conduit would exist within, would be made of concrete that hardened years ago, but I don't think that means "buried in concrete" because the purpose of that is so that the weight of the concrete doesn't crush the conduit (making the wire un-pullable). That wouldn't be a problem.

Would the conduit solution resolve the "DB as a wireway" issue?

[Derlyn]

The best advice I can give is:

Get yourself a copy of Government Gazette No 31975. Familiarise yourself with page 7, reg 6.1 to 6.4

You see, it's not only sans that one must adhere to in our game. There's also the occupational health and safety act. Then there are municipal bylaws and just to throw in some confusion there's also manufacturer specifications.

Peace out. .. Derek.

PS. I did not appreciate your snide remark aimed at GCE, who in my opinion is one of the most knowledgeable electrical men in SA.

[Isetech]

@lights on' I had a project just like what you are trying to deal with 2 years a ago, I stripped all the extras, installed 1 surface 3 tier DB over the flush DB, cut a hole into the back of the 3 tier DB and rerouted all the wiring to the new section in the new DB.

[LightsOn]

Government Gazette No 31975. Familiarise yourself with page 7, reg 6.1 to 6.4

@Derlyn, thanks very much. I will familiarize myself with what you have mentioned. Your response is much appreciated.

PS. I did not appreciate your snide remark aimed at GCE, who in my opinion is one of the most knowledgeable electrical men in SA.

You have both said that he is highly knowledgeable and I have already said that I have noticed that and I really appreciate the constructive feedback he has given.

But you missed the point of what I said and mis-interpreted the purpose of it as a personal attack. I was attempting to gently hint that being one of the most knowledgeable does not mean infallible or knowing with certainty what the future will hold. When you think you've got it all figured out is when you make the worst mistake. I made my comment to @GCE in the trunking thread for his best interest. I'd hate to see a great man make a big mistake.

Just speaking in general terms, saying "When you think you've got it all figured out is when you make the worst mistake." or as seen in more common language "the bigger the ego the harder the fall" is not a snide remark aimed at anybody. I think it's something that all people need to be careful of. I speak openly with everybody. It's a general principle that I believe in, in my opinion. I can share my opinion, you don't have to agree with it. I think there's too much ego going on here. We are here to discuss electricity, safety and standards compliance, we don't need to be so socially complicated. I wish you and GCE the most peace and happiness and success possible.

But I do respect and will honor your sentiment, I've made my comment now and there's no need for further philosophical discussion.