SA programmers and web coders too expensive

[Chatmaster]

Sorry for being serious about this topic but the problem is that those experts that are really worth their bucks have to deal with the damage made to the SEO industry's reputation. Although I do not provide SEO services myself it is very frustrating when training people in online marketing to see how they have been mislead by SEO add-on services and so called SEO companies.

[RKS Computer Solutions]

SEO needs to be researched by the site owner and applied to his site with knowledge gained by experience, don't ever pay for SEO!!!

ps... I know a great web-designer, CMS sites for R2500, if anyone wants the details, PM me

[Dave A]

don't ever pay for SEO!!!

This could get the party started

It's OK to hire someone to put together a CMS site, but not to hire someone for the SEO

[Chatmaster]

don't ever pay for SEO!!!

Riaan, sorry to disagree with you here. I would rather suggest that there are levels required for SEO to be done on your website.

First of all, SEO is not a simple task, you need both technical, marketing and experience to be an SEO. Very few site owners actually have the time or ability to have an understanding of SEO.

On the surface SEO seems simple and easy, but it is far from it. I would recommend to site owners to do only this little bit.

Research your competition online, if you do not know how simply ask on any SEO forum and they will quickly tell you.

If you are targeting SA only results SEO could be a simple task. At least get an SEO involved with evaluating the basic site design and hosting to ensure that the basics are correct. This SEO should also make recommendations on the keywords that should be targeted. This will mean that you pay a once of fee and that is it. Thereafter you simply maintain frequent updates, maintain the integrity of the original SEO review and frequent content additions based on how competitive your keywords are.

If you are targeting the global market and competitive keywords. Rather outsource your SEO, there is no chance in hell that you will be able to compete man alone. SEO in the global market is a whole different ballgame and is so technical you need several years of experience and contacts within the SEO industry to even stand a chance to rank for targeted 3 word phrases.

[RKS Computer Solutions]

**Roelof will kick my a$$ on SEO, I admit!**

ok, maybe my wording was wrong, and in afterthought, I'm glad Roelof didn't take me on anymore than he did maybe Chathead took the night off...

Let's change my wording: Never pay money for SEO services which cannot prove themselves and seems to good to be true.

I still stand by my point that SEO starts with the owner/admin of the site, there is no point in hiring someone to do your SEO if you are unable to give clear examples of what you want to achieve with SEO and for the purpose of your site. Unless you are willing to spend a fortune on paying your SEO guru a research fee to go do research on all your competitors, gather information on your target market and decide for you where your company wants to go, I can't see why the owner wouldn't do this research himself.

In any business, there are certain points which you have to research and gather information on, before you can make an informed decision on whether or not your business is viable. These should include at least some basic ideas on the presentation of your company, which should be portrayed by your website and thus form the basis of your start to internet glory.

Stupid but simple example, I didn't go and call my company Joe Soap's Little Helpers, because that is not what my company represents and certainly not what I want to portray to the public. Thus, RKS Computer Solutions portrays the name of my company, says what the company deals with, and bringing in the simpleminded beginning to seo (owner/admin research / info gathering) my website is located at http://www.rkscomputersolutions.co.za and not at http://www.joe-soap-little-helpers-g...-help-with.biz

.co.za point to SA site, to do with computers and solutions thereof.
.biz joe soap is going to have one hell of a time getting market specific customers to his site based purely on his website name, hopefully based in their search area, and hoping to heck his offering is something which would actually help them.

Yup, I agree, keyword,metatags,decent urls, all the rest can make any site name stand out from the crowds on certains SERPS, but when relevancy comes into play, you'd be disadvantaged right from the moment your purchase your domain name...

I never proclaimed myself an SEO expert, but Roelof I hope you agree with me that I have proven myself in previous posts regarding web design and so forth...

I will take your word on SEO any day above some of the other muppets out there, but doing my own reseach as owner/admin of my site on SEO, has given me a distinct advantage I belief: One of learning from my own mistakes and growing and learning from them.

I was devistated when my webhost lost my .com domain, but after getting the online shop (most important) backend sorted on the new .co.za domain, and going through points learned from getting my .com domain on SERPS, I had a hit to my shop which came from Google within 3 days of letting them know I was back online, and following the ref link, I was #1 listed in Google for the keyword, specific to one of my products, which brought a new customer (4k sale) directly to where he wanted to be...

I agree that SEO is not easy, that there are different levels to SEO and that you need multiple backgrounds to be able to do SEO to a industry based standard. But everything I know about SEO today has been self taught, research, research, research, o and more research. You yourself posted in another thread regarding a well respected SEO making an elimentary mistake in his posting, and you wondering if you should take him on about his mistake. Go for it! Self-obtained knowledge is what drives us to be better at what we do, and if we do not use our own knowledge, what worth do we have for the world?

**This is not a personal attact on anyone, just the comments of a hothead who believes in working hard for something you believe in and not wasting money on unscrupilous members of society whose only purpose in life is to get your money and not offer you anything in return**

[Chatmaster]

Riaan, make no mistake. I respect you in terms of your knowledge of SEO, I am sure that you will teach many people a thing or two. I would hardly ever disagree with you because you are always spot on with your SEO advice. I think this time I just had to voice my difference in opinion.

But you just opened the can of Chathead and I need to get this off my chest!

Since I started training people in online marketing I have noticed that in general there are different reasons why business owners simply do not rate the Internet as a priority.

In terms of South Africa I am so deeply disappointed in the general opinion about the Internet and the use of it as a marketing tool that it is actually driving me crazy! Most people are so thick about SEO and the power it has that they simply argue that the Internet is just hype or has never worked before. They often refer to the .com bubble as if to say, "See, it doesn't work". Never once did they open their minds to the possibility that they might be the ones making the mistakes.

A further factor is the absolute poor training provided by some in my industry. I am really holding back but would love to say their names, however it wouldn't be fair to them. These monkeys train people in order to make money and sell their own products during training. But their training is loaded with nice to know stuff but lack the real understanding of Internet marketing. So in the end you sit with delegates that were truly impressed by the performance but they do not realize that once they wish to start applying their new found knowledge, they actually learned nothing. The end result is confusement and loss of trust in the Internet as a marketing tool because it is simply to complicated.

So to get back to what you have said, you are correct in saying that the site owner is ultimately responsible, and that is absolutely true. But the problem is that the site owner often is the business owner relying on conventional marketing to maintain his business growth. Yes conventional marketing is still the main stream marketing method used by most. The web is a nice to have and a billboard on the Internet and that is all it is.

Their focus is to ensure that they grow their business with their local newspaper ads and pamphlets and to actually manage their business. This is exactly where the problem is. They are uninformed and completely internet stupid. They read articles written by authors and copywriters and completely respect every word they say without stopping for one second and think... Has this guy ever done Internet marketing? Has this guy ever done SEO in his entire life? Do yourself a favor, think of the most prominent people in SA in terms of Internet Marketing and SEO. Who are the people that are interviewed on TV, Radio and newspapers. Who are the people that are blindly followed by everyone in the industry. Then go and look at their background, many of them are authors, journalists etc. They actually have no experience in the field, but they are treated like experts! I often read their blogs and are amazed by the stupidity of the public to actually believe or respect what they read. Is South Africans really so ignorant? This country is one of the easiest country for any perception manager in the world! It is simply amazing.

The moment people start talking Internet, IT and SEO most people are completely overwhelmed and filled with respect for the outstanding knowledge they acquire from these copywriters. I find it amazing to say the least. I am the worlds poorest copywriter and my English writing skills are so delirious that it will make you laugh more than anything else, but at least most of the time I write based on experience.

People are so uninformed that if an IT guy tells them they did SEO for them they have no idea how to check up on them.

Companies outsource SEO and the outsourced SEO is kept unmanaged! Reporting sucks because they simply have no idea what to look for! Every month millions of rands are spent by companies on SEO and SEM. They receive reports from SEO companies that were recommended by those exact same SEO companies! So they have all the power to manage perception in any way they please and the website owners are none the wiser. Why? Because they simply do not care or because they are so insecure in the Internet world they rather avoid it.

The irony is, they just need to know one thing. How to manage SEO! It is the simplest thing in the world to learn. It takes me on average to teach a newbie marketing manager how to manage the entire Internet marketing process, 16 hours! They are able to do it themselves and they are able to outsource it and actually manage it properly without being "perception managed" by glorified gurus.

The fact that this complete Chathead post is boiling down to. You are wasting your time. It doesn't matter how right you are. Very few people will actually hear what you say, because they simply do not care. Those that care are people like you. People that are making a living online and probably thanking the other idiots for missing the bigger picture.

Telling them to only do SEO with trustworthy companies won't help them either. How on earth do they know what a trust worthy SEO company is? In their plain stupid ignorance they will simply ask another plain and simple ignorant business friend who they are using. That poor ignorant business friend has no idea he has been perception managed for the past 2 years and the 30k a month he has been paying for that time was spent on R200 worth of work! So the network of ignorant idiots just continue and continue selling the perception manager, lining his pockets with money, thinking it is well earned and the Internet doesn't really work that well.

Sigh, see what you did! It is 2:30 in the morning and I am so upset I cannot sleep! This is Chathead finished with his super rant!

[Dave A]

**This is not a personal attact on anyone, just the comments of a hothead who believes in working hard for something you believe in and not wasting money on unscrupilous members of society whose only purpose in life is to get your money and not offer you anything in return**

I like those kinds of hotheads

I remember setting up this site and wandering around the internet trying to find out how to do it. And one of the debates I stumbled on was the issue of SEO. In particular, it was whether there was value in a particular piece of relatively expensive software that would SEO your vB based website for you.

I can tell you that debate still rages on.... And I think here's why.

A person with a fairly basic understanding of SEO, a few minor code tweaks and some link building work can easily outperform the software product.
However, there is a time cost in acquiring even the level of skill required to be able to "beat the software."
Now what is your time worth?

Just an example - let's not get too attached to it. But here's the point I'm leading to:

The debate about whether to pay for SEO or not seems to ignore the fact that this must be examined from the client's perspective.
And sometimes the best thing for that client is to pay the money and get on with something else!

Everyone's circumstances are different.

The only question from there is whether you are getting a reasonable deal or being ripped off - but I think Roelof has tackled that already.

[Chatmaster]

The only question from there is whether you are getting a reasonable deal or being ripped off

Dave once again a top class post!

Last night (earlier this morning) I made comments that was filled with frustration not towards Riaan, (all but!) but the ignorance of the average website owner in South Africa. Riaan, one thing I absolutely value is difference in opinion. We all have the right to raise our opinions and a valuable one like yours is welcome to an open mind like mine If your read through the post you will also notice that we do not really disagree about anything, lol

[RKS Computer Solutions]

If you read through the post you will also notice that we do not really disagree about anything, lol

Let's agree to disagree on an agreeable disagreeability (not sure if those big words excist and wheter or not the spelling is correct, but heck, why not?)

I agree though, and that is one point you mentioned that I didn't: Management of marketing in regards to SEO is more important than the SEO itself. Mindsets need to be changed in order for business owners to understand the difference between hard-copy advertising and the internet-connected variety.

PS... You just had to go and get Chathead out of his bed at 2.30 in the morning and come trash my word count on the post


Dave, what would the world be without hotheads?

[Dave A]

PS... You just had to go and get Chathead out of his bed at 2.30 in the morning and come trash my word count on the post

That was wierd, actually. I woke up at 1.00 am and felt like some hot chocolate. Whilst I was drinking it, I thought I'd post a reply to a thread. Once I'd posted the reply I noticed Roelof was online.

I was going to PM to go WASSUP, but my eyelids got kinda heavy and I don't remember too much after that.

[Chatmaster]

Yah, I had a very tough day yesterday. I only went to bed at 4 this morning and still battled to sleep, lol

[RKS Computer Solutions]

Yah, I had a very tough day yesterday. I only went to bed at 4 this morning and still battled to sleep, lol

Roelof, stop talking gibberish and explain yourself clearly please

Where exactly can I find a "bed" and what is "sleep" ?

I haven't been in bed since sunday night, huge crisis came about Monday morning and I've been flatout trying to salvage what I can... Guess I might find that elusive bed and sleep by friday night or so.... Insomnia is sometimes a blessing!

[allanh]

Can you help?

Read what you had to say about programmers costs and local is lekker if they would not try to rip us off.
I am currently urgently looking for a programmer in Access. Any comments Dave?
Allan

[Chatmaster]

Can you tell me what you mean with a programmer in access? Is it for DBA purposes or are you looking for a VB programmer to create applications using access?

[Dave A]

Any comments Dave?

I hope you had another Dave in mind there, Allan

I vaguely recall Chatmaster mentioning a little skill with Access though