SA programmers and web coders too expensive

[Chatmaster]

The last time I programmed in Access was I think in 2001! Did Queries, VB coding, Macros the whole tootie back then, but there are a lot of people that cannot do the VB part and will claim they can program in access. Access is very user friendly especially when using the wizards. But when you need to get more 'technical' you need some programming skill! I think I forgot my skill when I turned 30! lol

[Chatmaster]

Oooooh and don't forget relationships, a relational database can be very complicated lol
Just an added note. Access programmers will probably old school or self taught programmers with VB experience. Platforms used by most programmers will be MySQL and MS SQL. I have a suspicion you are looking for a scarce resource there Allan.

[daveob]

Read what you had to say about programmers costs and local is lekker if they would not try to rip us off.
I am currently urgently looking for a programmer in Access. Any comments Dave?
Allan

Yes.
Don't waste your time spending hours looking for a coder. Go to RentAcoder.com and create a bid request with the specs of exactly what you want. Then the coders will bid and you get to see many quotes all in 1 place, and the added benefit of seeing previous buyers ratings of each of those coders.

[Dave A]

How much of a material difference is there between SQL and Access anyway?

Crossing from one to the other would involve a fairly small adjustment for a well schooled programmer.

[Chatmaster]

I am not a DBA Dave but to be honest, there is no comparison between the two imo. Although on the surface they seem very much alike, SQL is much more powerful, reliable and robust. As a multiple user platform Access can probably handle about 4 or 5 users at the same time where SQL can handle large amounts of users and data at the same time. If you know SQL you can also considerably increase the process time so it is much faster than Access.

Although I want to add that a lot of people have bad things to say for Access. Access is fine in a small setup. It is reliable and user friendly, but the moment you load it you can compare the difference between a half ton bakkie and a truck.

Just my opinion and I am no pro...

[twinscythe12332]

access vs SQL is a fair difference. the queries may be very close together (SELECT statements, all that good stuff), but then again the way you access them (hahaha) is different. with access you would have a local .mdb file. SQL is an installed server database. with access you tend to move your file with your project, whereas with your SQL projects, the DB is fixed on a server. not to say that you couldn't set up an access DB with user names and passwords and slap it onto a web-server to be accessed by a program over the net :P. overall, I'd have to say if your dealing with a few MB/GB of data, access is a good solution. a nice local DB, good for network applications. considering that's what I used it for with a program for Dave, I think it does go quite well. but when you're dealing with many people logging in to a website, you're going to want to head in the direction of SQL (or Oracle, if you've got one monster system like a banking one). that's my 2 cents worth =P

[Chatmaster]

Now that sounds like a professional opinion

[Dave A]

Now that sounds like a professional opinion

Trust me - it is!

I just happened to mention this thread in passing and presto

Allan - don't say I didn't try for you, mate.

[Alta Murray]

As a SA Developer -- I can only agree with you! I have seen some prices that have made mine eyes water. Personally, I am solution orientated, so if you find something that works and that is within your price range, I congratulate you. No ducking needed.

Software is highly over-priced & I feel that it has spiralled out of control. And boy, try getting assistance if you get stuck! To my mind I want to speak to the person who developed the software, not a help desk. And it should be customized to suit individual businesses....you should at least be able to include that.

I believe that developers have forgotten that they are mere pencils in the hand of the business owner, and that we should attribute to said business on all levels, instead of being a headache and a drain on profitability. We really are not that clever!

Okay, I guess my turn to duck.....

[twinscythe12332]

As a SA Developer... I would have to say that I didn't go through the pains of tertiary education to get paid peanuts. if you get your solutions through a solutions based company, then naturally there is going to be a certain extra added on. As for the Developer comment... we are developers. not public relations. we are there behind the scenes. for very good reasons too. I don't need 47 bosses all trying to get me to do their "little" upgrade, phoning me whenever they have a problem. that's what my error checking software is there for. I will admit that a help desk is not brilliant with problems. but then again, they're there as an interface. they aren't the ones who will personally tend to your problems. another thought to consider is my language. telling a programmer that there was an error when I converted that string to an int may help, but to someone who is just using the system, it often won't help out much. as I said before, we are in a highly specialised market. a person may be able to lay a brick in such a way that it isn't professional but will keep a house together, this often isn't the case with programming.

[Chatmaster]

I personally do not do any kind of work at a loss. From a business point of view I have a responsibility towards my clients to ensure that I can offer them the best possible service. All my costs are calculated according to an hourly rate. In IT one of the most costly issues any customer has to deal with is a programmer that disappears tomorrow. I would hardly try to look at another programmers coding and would much rather just do things from scratch.

I have seen many times that people utilizing these low cost bid for work deals end up paying again and again for the same work. I do not do a website for under R6k. The client at least knows that he gets a product that works for what it was intended, a marketing tool.

But at the end of the day it is the customers choice. I personally do not feel that local developers are overpriced, I do however feel that the product and service customers should get for the price they pay are in most cases not up to standard.

[Dave A]

Chatmaster - I think the point should be made that in your case the site would come complete with on-site SEO already in place.

Or would I be assuming too much.

[Chatmaster]

Yep, spot on. I only associate myself with things that work, lol

[Alta Murray]

I do understand your point of view completely, yes we are in a very, very difficult discipline and the demands at time feel overwhelming. I too went through the ‘rigours’, and I started my career working 3 jobs at the same time, doing my internship(scientific) at one company, developing on-site at a different company and teaching. Ever seen the movie European Vacation? That was me, and not one of the three places ever found out phew!

However, I do tend to think that the Engineering Faculty might perhaps feel more inclined to talk about the ‘pains of tertiary education’, and I actually know what I am talking about as I have taught university students too.

Yes, developers need to be kept behind the scenes for very good reasons, as you so aptly demonstrate. Your ’47 bosses with their little upgrades’ are the people putting money in your little pay envelope, and I don’t think you need to sound so utterly condescending towards the end-user. Or am I getting you wrong? Also bear in mind that every single line of code you type every day is for the use of the 47 bosses, surely shirley, they then do tend to become the experts on what is working for them or not. If the attitude, and it is prevailing amongst developers, is one of utter disregard and a huge chip on the shoulder, then I just marvel at the solutions you churn out. You are the expert right?

As you so aptly put it, the help desk is just an interface ( developers will scare the clients off and we need to make money ) but I just wonder how many solutions and upgrades fall by the wayside due to the client being refused access to developers. I get so much from my direct access to the end-user, or is it the other way around?

Yes, the interruptions suck, you know how much concentration our work takes and sometimes you lose the whole thread as you are doing your ‘PR stunt’, but if you are so solution orientated you take it like a man or is that a woman? It puts you in a position to evaluate the requested updates or changes, and then you can pass it on to your other clients as well, thereby spreading the cost, which would be nice for a change.

As for error trapping, you know you write your own Error Messages, and I do hope you don’t get conversion errors yikes!, and your end-user can read, promise you they can, so I tend to put in sensible English error messages, and when a client calls, I know exactly where to go and what it means. But I must say we only deal with index problems after power surges/failure etc.so I haven’t dealt with the ‘usual calls’ in years. Any term in our industry or field can be translated to plain English, so communicating with your clients is not a problem, and you are not their core business, so they are focused on the solution & their problem, and usually have little interest in our jargon. They just want their businesses to run.

A for adding something extra on – I laughed my head off. And I needed it. Software is supposed to be a solution, so how come you can charge extra for it? Wait I want to sell you a car, but I am charging you something extra because it actually runs? How about for the wheels?

…..but I do understand where you coming from, I just feel that we are not the solution that we are propagated to be and I base it on years of dealing with the end-user as well. They are frustrated, and feel they are being overcharged for something that at times is anything but a solution. The end-user is not there for you, you are there for the end-user. The majority of developers hold your opinion, so you are not alone. I am the odd one out, and I recognise that.

I just feel that there are so many professionals out there in different disciplines. Being a developer does not give me any sense of entitlement, so I fail to get your point on how exactly we are the only ones to hold a house together in a professional way.

I am amazed to see that you did not get to the real reason our prices are so high – people, we utterly refuse to work at the same rate than the hardware and network guys. They keep on putting their prices up, so we follow suit. Even I have a problem with that & develop a chip of arrogance on my shoulder.

[Chatmaster]

Alta I need to understand something here. Do you feel that developers and programmers are overpaid?