Valid COC?

[murdock]

nothing wrong with that its not part of the installation because its plugged in

[Dave A]

nothing wrong with that its not part of the installation because its plugged in

Yep - when I saw that photo I started wondering about the plug/junction box in the earlier photo too. How is that supplied?

I have some concerns about some aspects of how the electrician that issued the COC went about his/her business, but ultimately the COC only covers the portions of the electrical installation it was issued on.

You can contact the ECA in Gauteng on 011 392 0000 (Jhb) or 012 342 3242 (Pta). They should be able to point you to one of the GEIA chaps - I believe there are some in Gauteng.

When it comes to the parts of the installation where no COC has been issued - there I think you'll have to be chasing the seller (if this was a sale situation).

[Sparks]

Thank you Dave,

I just need to backtrack a bit now though. Murdock, I agree with you in some cases, not this one however. The underfloor heater is a fixed appliance and as such is required to have a dedicated circuit fed through the ELCB with either a double pole isolator or be fed through a socket outlet for isolating purposes. The socket outlet is not there to discount the heaters from the COC but rather as an alternative isolating mechanism. If the heaters are excluded, does it mean that the earthing mesh is also not required? Is the floor heater exempt from the regulations completely because an alternative "isolator" is being used?

[murdock]

Thank you Dave,

I just need to backtrack a bit now though. Murdock, I agree with you in some cases, not this one however. The underfloor heater is a fixed appliance and as such is required to have a dedicated circuit fed through the ELCB with either a double pole isolator or be fed through a socket outlet for isolating purposes. The socket outlet is not there to discount the heaters from the COC but rather as an alternative isolating mechanism. If the heaters are excluded, does it mean that the earthing mesh is also not required? Is the floor heater exempt from the regulations completely because an alternative "isolator" is being used?

how do you know the under floor heating was installed before the COC was issued? you just never know...

something we must all remeber is maybe this person is not out to crook the system maybe this person just needs some help...pointed in the right direction...i still dont get this COC thing right every time i am lucky to have a very knowledgeable person who assists me when i need help...

after attending a refresher course at the eca i realised that this industry needs more teachers...and because of the amendments...refresher courses or a point system should be bought in to make sure we all keep up with the changes.

i for one would attend seminars or group meetings to discuss problems we are having in the industry and to address confusion with certain parts of the regulations...

[Sparks]

This COC was issued after the house was sold before the new owner had access. I somehow doubt you will install underfloor heating after you have sold your house.

I have highlighted all the items I have an issue with.

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/27556811/P1.bmp

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/27556811/P2.bmp

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/27556811/P3.bmp

http://dl.dropbox.com/u/27556811/P5.bmp

This guy does not know how to complete a COC
This COC is worth less than toilet paper.
At least toilet paper does not give paper cuts.(not what I use anyway)

[murdock]

have you spoken to him?

[Sparks]

I skyped him the numbers , but have not heard from him yet. He is doing some work at the new place before moving in, chopping down trees, painting, tiling etc... so he is not as much online as usual.

[murdock]

I skyped him the numbers , but have not heard from him yet. He is doing some work at the new place before moving in, chopping down trees, painting, tiling etc... so he is not as much online as usual.

the person who issued the coc?

[Sparks]

No, my nephew to whom the COC was issued. That COC is invalid for a whole list of reasons. He got suspicious when he saw some things & contacted me. I asked him to send me the COC and as many photos as possible. The photos are not even necessary. It is obvious the that COC was issued without a proper inspection or tests being done. That electrician does not even know how to complete a COC. I would not be surprised if it cost a bottle of wine.

[murdock]

what i have found...is if you contact the person who issed the coc directly they tend to get a bit of a spook when they know the coc is being investigated...he will either tell you to go fly a kite and laugh you off in which case then the fun begins or he comes to the party and admits wrong doing and fixes the problems.

this coc issue is gona be a long healing process and i cant see it getting fixed any time soon unless...as i have mentioned in the past...the person who is responsible for the policing of the industry..parked his bmw in the garage...switches off his facebook...bbs...and all the other apps...has his entertainment account cut back....and is threated with a jail sentence...because at the end of the day he is allowing public lives to be put at risk because of his shoudy work ethic.

what the public whos lives are being threatened... and electrical contractors should do...is take this person who is responsible for policing the industry to court and sue him for negligence...just like some people have done about the potholes in the roads.

it must be costing the public millions in losses due to negligence and fraud from illegal COCs...but i suppose we are lucky there are not enough deaths from electricution and only 90% + fires are caused by electrical faults to worry about policing the industry...or to motivate an investigation into the DOL head....eeeeish

[Sparks]

Unfortunately you are correct, but on the other hand, a short while ago someone here in PE had success with the ECA and just before that one up there too. I thought I would first let my nephew contact them because if they are active it would be easier for them to check and it would obviously have more weight coming from them than from an overzealous uncle of the recipient of the invalid COC.
I would be ashamed to put my name on a COC like that.
As soon as my nephew has a buyer for his "old" property I will be going up to do the COC there. He has a few things he would like me to do at the new place too and his sister has also made a list of things she would like me to do as well.
Maybe I should give that electrician a call on Monday un any case, my nephew is a bit soft and I suspect that he might just be avoiding the suspect items and waiting for me to come fix them. That electrician must know that as you say, he is putting lives at stake.

[Sparks]

An update, you were right Murdock. The guy was so spooked that he tried to convince my nephew not to get me involved. I came to Joburg yesterday and when the electrician finally pitched today I let Albert meet him at the door. He was quite happy to fix whatever Albert wanted fixed, until Albert pointed out that the extractor and one socketoutlet are on the stove circuit. He claimed that there was no way he could pick that up during an inspection. I stayed in the background. Albert then pointed out that the bathroom heater was not earthed, the ceiling fans not on the ELCB, which did not trip at 35mA. At that point the electrician got fed up. He obviously realised that this would not be the walkover he was hoping for. He started to get technical, then I walked up to him and introduced myself. You could have bowled him over with a feather, his first utterance being " please do not fight with me". As calmly as I could, without laughing I told him that his COC was invalid and gave him a copy with all the irregularities marked and described. He tried to make excuses which obviously fell on deaf ears and irritated me. I have cancelled my return booking and will be here when he comes on Monday to sort it out. I have informed him very politely that Albert is not an electrician and that nothing other than a complete inspection and bringing the installation up to the minimum safety requirements will keep me back from going to DOL. He actually asked me if I would do the inspection and charge him. Obviously when I told him an inspection would cost R1200 he had a slight fart-attack(not so sure it was dry).
It was clear from his comments that he had not been in the house before. If he had, he did nothing more than give it a cursory glance. I already fail the open wiring in the roof because there is tension on the conductors as they enter the droppers, there are also open joints on the wires, the wires are also resting on some beams and the spacing is not correct throughout the installation. Tomorrow I will be doing an insulation test, which I doubt will pass, the insulation tester has the final say. I was also flabergasted by his reply to my query regarding the PSC. He said he is prepared to replace the single pole main switch with a double pole and would I approve of that. I then asked if it would be rated in excess of 16kA. He nearly blew his top asking why. When I pointed out that that would be required according to his "calculated" PS, he was so stunned that he could not tell me what formula he used. It quickly came out that his "formula" was the "test results average obtained from his son", this is apparently the "norm" for the Transvaal. My PSC tester will have the final say tomorrow. Apparently his "list of repairs done" in section 3 is an accurate description of the installation.

[Dave A]

I then asked if it would be rated in excess of 16kA. He nearly blew his top asking why. When I pointed out that that would be required according to his "calculated" PS, he was so stunned that he could not tell me what formula he used. It quickly came out that his "formula" was the "test results average obtained from his son", this is apparently the "norm" for the Transvaal.

Apparently his "list of repairs done" in section 3 is an accurate description of the installation.

Eish! Doesn't have a clue

Any idea why this guy is so clueless? It just doesn't make sense

[murdock]

i agree with dave something just doesnt sound right...

[Sparks]

I am as surprised as you guys. He is registered with ECB but not ECA unfortunately. He did agree last week to doing a proper inspection today, but did not show. When I called him he blew his top and said that I must go ahead and call the DOL. According to him the seller commisioned him to certify the house only, not the outbuildings.I find it very hard to believe that he is not prepared to rectify the situation without involving the DOL I am certain that he is from an industrial background and is now in deep water.