The BEE issue

[Fanie]

Right, just one tiny little question... how are labour brokers not exploiting minorities? You make a wonderful argument but the truth is, I remember some stupid idea of people working together. It was a first attempt of a “Volks Staat” and do you know what happened?

Well white people exploited other white people to a degree where it resembled slavery. The rich and powerful gave the “workers” so little that they couldn’t live and by force they couldn’t leave. Eventually the system broke down “yes there were much more elements but the short of it is; not everything is everyone’s fault.

Remember this “if” South Africa fails we "all of us!!!" fail with it...

Being brash about it, is not helping...

The 'volstaat' you refer to is probably what is known today as 'Orania' ?
As I have it that is where whites are enslaving whites.
I didn't know there was even a system, but I'm sure any one working there has the right to leave any time they want. It may not the highest flyer on the block, but at least it's a bit of a home to some less fortunate people.

[Fanie]

When dealing with unhelpful employees at other companies, exercise your right to complain - business owners need to be made aware that their service, delivery, etc is not up to spec.

A last thought - Embrace and give change a chance, find the opportunity and turn the negative to your advantage.

In some cases the complaining helps. The one co said they have sent the person for training to answer a phone on a course for three times already. They fired her eventually - and the problem was not that she couldn't do the job. I had a brief conversation with her when I was there. She was just terrorising the co by putting customers on hold indeffenate, or just say they are not available, doesn't give messages etc etc .

As for giving change a chance -

We did, when this gov came to power I though hey, people are hungry to improve on the old crappy national party, any change will be an improvement. This was however not the case.

I cannot think of anything that wasn't disfunctional ever since the anc came to power. Nothing gets built up. The gov is so insecure that they even change town and province names and SA had to get the ANC flag. You cannot for ever keep on blaming the same old problems from the past over and over again - at some stage you have to take responsibility for the wrongs and begin to set things right. This however is never going to happen under this government.

[tec0]

The 'volstaat' you refer to is probably what is known today as 'Orania' ?
As I have it that is where whites are enslaving whites.
I didn't know there was even a system, but I'm sure any one working there has the right to leave any time they want. It may not the highest flyer on the block, but at least it's a bit of a home to some less fortunate people.

Actually it was long before the times of now. Well the short of it was that some mentalities wanted to be free from the ruling party “back in what most 90 year olds will call the great depression”. It wasn’t fun times but there were no majorities calling the shots back in those days. Nope people worked for nearly nothing and then the
"supper rich" decided ok that they will employ anyone willing to work on their farms.

At first it seemed like a good plan BUT soon people got paid little to no money and others had to grateful because they had “something” When the people started to leave the farms to work at the local factories it was then where “some” but not all was hold back by force. Eventually the government of that time took control and matters where resolved.

The point I am making is that corruption is a mind set, money is colour-blind and there will always be some people that get the short end of everything. So I say get educated and deal with the situation intelligently. Solutions have the tendency to present itself it is just timing...

With a proper mindset and education one will identify this solution and make it work.

On a personal note, Giving up is not part of my programming.

[KimH]

Kim, I don't know what position you have in your company, but let me explain it perhaps in another way.
What you have in your home is something that you and your husband/wife gathered over some time. It is your's and you worked to have what you have, right ?

Now - an outsider of a different ethnic group is going to move into your house and expects any of the four points on your list to be enforced in his favour - or your accounts double the end of the month. No come on, think about if for a minute. Apply BEE inside your home and see if you are staying or moving.

In a business that you don't own or where you did not spend your own blood sweat and tears to get where it is today it is easy to 'give away'. Most of the big business guys doesn't care as long as het gets more contracts and makes more money, but there are those that is proud of their humble 'achivement', for what it's woth any way.

Fanie, you still appear to be missing the point, please allow me to clarify,… as with most things in our lives that befall us, we have no control over them, however, what we do have control over, is how we respond to these things.

Put another way: “Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, Courage to change the things I can, And wisdom to know the difference”.

Or even another way: “Life gave me lemons,…..so I made Lemonade”, the point being that this is not about the government, other ethnic groups or even BBBEE,… its about you/your business, and how you take on the challenge and either overcome or compromise.

Just for the record, I would react to any group, (be they of the same ethnic group or not, to myself, not even sure why that matters), moving into my house, the same way as I would my business dealings: “Attack, attack, adapt, overcome”, (With the emphasis being on that “attack” relates to attacking the problem, not the person. “Adapt” could mean my attitude, my strategy, or my viewpoint, and “overcome” means resolving an issue to an acceptable outcome, I don’t have to like this outcome, I just have to be able to live and work with it.

Seeing as how I have already abused cliché’s, a few more of relevance won’t really matter: “Adapt or die”, “Principles are great, they just don’t pay the rent or put food on the table”

[Martinco]

I cannot think of anything that wasn't disfunctional ever since the anc came to power. Nothing gets built up. The gov is so insecure that they even change town and province names and SA had to get the ANC flag. You cannot for ever keep on blaming the same old problems from the past over and over again - at some stage you have to take responsibility for the wrongs and begin to set things right. This however is never going to happen under this government.

Hear Hear !

( We have not had refuse removal for 2 weeks now. " The truck she is broken " )

[Dave A]

This has nothing to do with the old scapegoat 'racism' and the next that will be brought in here is the 'apartheid' excuse

But if that's true, where does this come from:

Then try to get technical information from Philamon who is the 'expert' on the floor but hardly knows what you're talking about. (and no, not ALL of them are incompetent - but most are ! ).

And this...

Take pilots for instance, black people does not have the ability or the judgement to do professional flying.

You're just giving ammunition to your enemy. How does that help end the war?

[Martinco]

Quote Originally Posted by Fanie View Post
Take pilots for instance, black people does not have the ability or the judgement to do professional flying.

Sorry.........totally off the topic, but I simply could not resist. ( You can take some Brownie points ! )

Sipho, the pilot and Simon the co pilot from North African Airways come in to land at OR.

Sipho to Simon: " Hey Simon, this is the shortest runway I have ever seen, only about 30 meters long !"
Simon to Sipho: " Yes man these guys in SA are stupid, It is also the widest I have seen, must be all of 3 kms wide. "

[BusFact]

I too am not a fan of BEE at all, but how else would you suggest that the government resolve the following issue in current day SA:

How do you rectify the situation of a typical 40-50 year old black person in our economy? They cannot compete with whites who had a 20 year head start in education, work experience and opportunities. Even though those whites worked damn hard to get where they did, it was not a fair competition, the blacks weren't even included in the race to success. There is no easy answer, I don't think, and BEE is the best they could come up with.

Maybe one can consider it the price you have to pay for getting that head start in life. If I had to choose between being white, with the head start and having the cost of BEE - against being black and hoping for the remote chance of a BEE placement, I know which I would choose. It wasn't fair then, its not fair now. I don't have the answers.

How long will it last? I suppose the logical target will be when all the major corporates on the JSE are 80-90% black owned. This is years away if we stay on the current path. I doubt it will go away over the next two decades at the least. In fact it will most likely become a forgotten law that stays around for many decades even well after its goals have been met. A century from now some lawyer or politician will come across it and laugh at it, in much the same way that we would coming across by laws referring to where you can park your horse on the main road.

[BusFact]

This gov got a working (not perfect) infrastructure with everything in place but functional. It is currently being screwed up well enough that we are dumped into crisis after crisis after crises. BEE is but one of the tools to keep you buzy and keep you uncomfortable and out of what is really going on.

I guess the answer to this would be that it was working for 10% of the population. Now that they are trying to provide that infrastructure to everyone, its been spread too thin and problems are occuring.

I have to agree that it can be very frustrating and disheartening to watch happen, if you were part of the original 10%.

[BusFact]

Kim, I don't know what position you have in your company, but let me explain it perhaps in another way.
What you have in your home is something that you and your husband/wife gathered over some time. It is your's and you worked to have what you have, right ?

Now - an outsider of a different ethnic group is going to move into your house and expects any of the four points on your list to be enforced in his favour - or your accounts double the end of the month. No come on, think about if for a minute. Apply BEE inside your home and see if you are staying or moving.

But this aleady happens. I have to pay rates and taxes, which is essentially used to provide for other ethnic groups, although I do get some benefit too. So I am essentially paying towards items 4, 6 and 7 education and social upliftment, assuming the taxes are spent correctly.

If I were a good citizen I would perhaps help out at a nearby charity or make some donations. I might just happen to use a black plumber / electrician / painter. I buy my groceries from Checkers and spend money with Telkom, Joburg City, local school, insurance company, security company, Standard Bank. If I live in an upmarket suburb I might employ a gardener or a maid. Each of these gives me BEE points.

Without changing my lifestyle or giving anything away, I am most probably already BEE compliant to some degree. The same goes for most businesses.

[BusFact]

In a business that you don't own or where you did not spend your own blood sweat and tears to get where it is today it is easy to 'give away'. Most of the big business guys doesn't care as long as het gets more contracts and makes more money, but there are those that is proud of their humble 'achivement', for what it's woth any way.

I think the point I am trying to convey is that you don't have to give anything significant or important away. You may have to pay a bit more towards social causes, but then so does your competitor so that evens things up.

Now as I have said before, I don't like BEE, mainly because of the unproductive admin around it, but have chosen to suck it up and deal with it ... all be it reluctantly. That said, I can also see the potential positives that this legislation could create if implemented well.

- Imagine if every business helped create a micro enterprise or small business (Enterprise Development). Would our economy not flourish and grow?
- Imagine if every business supported the less fortunate in their area (Socio Economic Development). Would a smaller gap between the rich and poor not reduce the incentive for crime?
- Imagine if every business set aside time to educate and train their workers. Would that not improve the overall efficiency of our economy?

I know thats pie in the sky stuff, but you can see what they are trying or hoping to do.

[Justloadit]

I think that we are all frustrated with BEE, and I am also strongly against it, as I see this as a handicap to actually getting the population off their backsides, and do something to help themselves, rather than wait for the meal ticket. I believe that when you have struggled to get what you have, you tend to be more appreciative of what you have.

I think the root of the frustration is because of the greed that came in the past, where fronting was the order of the day, and how the system was abused to enrich a few only. Due to this fact, the BEE actually failed, and the government has now modified the BEE structure to prevent fronting, and allow a greater base of the population to benefit.

[Fanie]

How do you rectify the situation of a typical 40-50 year old black person in our economy?

Have you ever thought about the amounts of money we are spending on security per household here ? Most people pay around R400pm plus they pay to have walls, electric fences etc etc.

These could have gone towards someone's salary if we didn't have the crime fiasco here. Instead not much is done towards crime because the government gets their cut each time you have to replace stolen goods. Crime has become big business for the government.

The suggestion that when you replace stolen items you don't pay tax was rejected. It's big business for gov.

The security co's only employ a few people compared to what could have been employed if there wasn't crime.

If we didn't have the crime we have it would have been much easier to employ someone less educated. Every philamon out there however think it's his right to take what he can because he is poor. If he gets cought he's back on the street in a day.

Nothing is perfect, and there probably will never be anything perfect. It is however each and every person's own responsibility to improve himself through education except I now get blamed for them never doing the same. Even before this government took over there were opportunities for black people to learn, go see who is in our libraries. In my work I have to learn new things on a daily basis. Why do others think they don't have to read and learn ?

I employ a couple of Zim boys here from time to time, young chaps. When they got here the first time they could hardly speak English and it was difficult to understand each other. I said to them they must read read read... it makes the difference between poor and stupid and being able to at least help yourself. The one was here a few days ago - I asked him if they were reading and he said yes, every day. The change is remarkable, we can actually have a conversation.

One last thing. If someone is betweem 40 and 50, does it mean they are too old to do anything or too old to learn something ? I don't think so. Many people are forced to persue a less physical line of work for many reasons, you have to however skill yourself first ! I cannot educate someone else, they have to do it themselves and must be willing to do it.

[Fanie]

I think that we are all frustrated with BEE, and I am also strongly against it, as I see this as a handicap to actually getting the population off their backsides, and do something to help themselves, rather than wait for the meal ticket. I believe that when you have struggled to get what you have, you tend to be more appreciative of what you have.

Absolutely !

We are being held responsible for making a (good) life for someone else ! and not they have to pull finger themselves to get anywhere. It has always been easier to blame someone else for your misfortuen in life han to blame yourself for being lazy and unwilling.

When I was still working for a boss you got paid a salary they determined. If you strike you were fired. If you didn't like the pay or conditions, then leave. It wasn't your business and you had no say in it - you just worked there. If you didn't work you didn't get paid and you die of hunger and who cared.

Nowadays you get sued if you fire someone even if they were commiting a crime, they claim large sums of money for getting fired for not working or not even pitching. You cannot fire a poor and incompetent worker, you are now saddled with this burden because you employed him ! BEE even give them rights to determine how you should run your business ! Come on man it's rediculous. Let them start their own business and run it their way. If the argument is no they cannot then how will they improve my business by getting in here !

Someone I know employed a driver. Six months the driver disappeared. Some 18 months later the guy pitches again - he still claims his position. Cost the guy I know a week sitting in court for the case. It turned out the 'driver' didn't even have a driver's license - you'd think someone applying for a driver position will have a drivers license ! The 'driver' demanded huge amounts of money and back pay for the 18 months he wasn't even there ! Rediculous ? Well, the case was made, how many of similar succeed.

I hear the previous big shot who was fired at the SABC got rewarded R 4 million. I will any time make trouble in any business if I'm going to get rewarded those kinds of money. I'll even do it weekly. BEE gives power to the wrong people for the wrong reasons.

[Dave A]

This is like watching someone trying to put out a fire with petrol.