The BEE issue

[Fanie]

Well Dave, what you're saying is everyone should just accept any and all of these scemes government implement - doesn't matter how bad they go. I am not aware of anything to date implimented by government that is successful in the inetrest of the country.

Government's function is not to dictate to the private sector how it should do business. Government knows squat about business, or mining, or farming, or electricity or technical things - or they would not be in government ! Government's sole function should be to make laws and govern the the country on behalf of and in the interest of the people - not impliment and enforce schemes to gain the vote of the masses at the business owner's expense.

If no one paid attention to BEE, we would not be sitting with it's problems now. And no one has the answers, so logically if it doesn't work then it has to be given up. No use insisting it HAS to work if it doesn't. There could be other and better ways, but mostly instant gratification almost always backfires.

Refering to your post # 21

You're just giving ammunition to your enemy. How does that help end the war?

Enemy ? war ?

What I'm trying to say is that you cannot force someone to be something he cannot be, and this is what BEE does.

It is simple to explain. If there wasn't a problem then black people do not need white businesses to be in business. They even have the support of the government to get their own businesses and be successful in it.

RIGHT ?

Wrong.

Black people are not ready to do business on a level that make them self sustaining, that is why we are being forced to take them in. This implicate you are forced to put people that are not ready to function on some levels to fullfill those posts !

This is the green orange that is now gettig squeezed ripe. It still remains GREEN ! but we are the ones that has to deal with the frustrations.

The sour orange juice can now be found in our city councils - most of them are bankrupt, mismanaged, corrupt and does not perform for what they were intended to do. I mentioned some other examples as well but it is found over the broad spectrum all over the country.

Those that does function well, great ! We need them, and there should be many more. As I said, the 4 million whites (who do not even all have businesses) cannot maintain the country's economy - there are 49 million people in SA ! and only 4,9 million tax payers. Does this sound like how it is supposed to be ?


Re the pilots, it has been done. You can grab the philamon on the street corner, tell him he's now BEE rated and You can by all means let him fly you around, not me china, I stay off that plane. Ask the training centers (there is one in Midrand I know someone there).

Re technical abilities - less than one percent of qualifying electronic students remain in the electronic environment, and usually in a non technical post like a component packer on an assembly line - statistic courtesy of a senior lector.

[Fanie]

If nobody admits there is a problem how do you think it is going to be solved. If a drunk does not admit he has a drinking problem you cannot help him. I didn't make the rules, it's just how it is.

Just the fact tha BEE has been implemented suggests there is a problem, it does not offer a solution though.

[Dave A]

Fanie, if you read over most of the other posts you will note that they acknowledge there is a problem with BEE. Heck, even government is issuing statements saying there is something wrong.

So far so good. Where the wheels are coming off is the supporting arguments and the proposed solutions.

Let me pick a neutral analogy to try to illustrate.

Let's say BEE is a destructive fire raging out of control.
You have one group say the fire is there because of the wood.
You have another group say the fire is there because of the oxygen.
You have another group who say the fire is so bad because of the wind that's fanning the fire.
You have another group who say the fire is there because of a lack of water.
You have yet another group who say the fire is there because someone lit the fire in the first place.

The oke who put down the wood is blaming the fire on the oke that didn't bring the water.
The oke that didn't bring the water is blaming the fire on the oke that lit the fire.
The oke who opened the door and let in the wind says he is trying to get rid of the smoke.
The oke bitching about the oxygen is being told to shut up by everyone else because after all, the oxygen has always been there and always will be there.

And even as they argue among each other, the wood guy keeps piling on more wood, the wind guy is installing fans to help clear the smoke, the water guy isn't fetching water...

And the oke who put the kettle over the fire to boil some water for his cup of tea is saying thank you very much for the fire.

[Fanie]

In AU they started implementing all kinds of licensing and laws and regulations to keep the public's minds off the problems their government had.

Sounds familiar ? Car lisensing, drivers licenses, skippers licenses, fishing lisences, fire arm licenses, and more, all instated since under this government. BEE is another one - seemingly to give a fair chance for the previously disagvantaged ones to get on par. Another and correct me if I'm wrong is you cannot register a CC any more, you have to register a Co. This makes it possible for the gov to appoint someone to under the laws of a co keep a very close eye on all your finances.

For a government that has absolutely no interest in the welfare of the country, or it's people, doesn't implimenting something like BEE (for the people) seem a bit strange ?

You have to realise the guy on the floor only sees his world, his little piece of the pie - the problems at the office, the small minded every day life problems. That is why we bicker and argue amongst each other instead of standing together in the interest of the larger problems that is ruining our lives. BEE is the ideal tool to do just this, while at the same time it looks like there are more tax payers - a sign that it is working and the gov gets the credit on paper.

The down side is of course it is not doing what we think it does. It was already predicted that around 2015 we are going to have a serious shortage of skilled workers - as if the services and production isn't already poor amd slow enough. In a local newspaper Eskom has now - aparently too late - started training a rather large group of people to maintain their equipment. The large group is probably in the hope that some will come out capable of doing the job. I hear of no white people qualifying for any posts, in fact they are still being replaced - and still leaving the country.

So in the end it does not matter who blames who for what that does or what does not get done, we still have the same problem - and the problem is our's and the countries ! We are the ones on the short end of the stick, government doesn't care, they get paid by us or more correctly they take whatever they want to - it is we that are getting it more and more difficult and have to get by with less. Like I said when they come with sh1t llike you have to save by switching your car off at traffic lights when the fuel price is again going up you can for sure know there is a rotten skunk in it.

As long as the ANC is in power, this country will continue on it'd down path to national destruction. Someone mentioned the terms and slogans thay use to justify their inabilities - same as Mugabe said when the whites left there, the 'white patriots leaving the country'. Doesn't seem to bother the government much to see their golden gees leave. We (you and I) have not left yet, but it may take one incident or just one push too many to see us go too. Who knows we may even have adjacent seats on the plane !

[tec0]

Fanie ->

I see much anger written here much of that bounded to frustration I am sure, as it seems you speak of many things Fanie but you see not the harm in your words. Please don’t get me wrong but your lack of hindsight I am sure is due to your frustration.

Understanding the nature of an event after it has happened in your case the words that is stated here, you have all but convinced the majority that your intentions may not be in there best interest. Thus undermining the equality factor as whole.

There are groups that are asking for social and economical equality, thus all of us will have the “chance” to be treated fairly. Yet all I see is a play on words stating the dynamics of thins we already know. It has been stated in the Media “news” that many feel that the elite gets too much from government and in turn we slowly can no longer afford to live in a country that we are trying to keep going.

This may or may-not interest you but the truth is, you are carving your own headstone, I have no problem with that other then you are carving mine too. Now the words “guilty by association” may not mean much to you but know that it does happen. Your views become “my views” by association thus you incriminate me... I don’t like that at all.

I say this because I am the bugger that must use public transport, I and many others just like me must face the brunt of your jest... And you don’t mind that at all, do you? I agree change must come I agree that our needs must echo trough the ears of parliament. I say we must be taken into consideration yes... But none must be ruled out, that is the point of equality...

There is enough for us all, the elite is the real problem here, the faceless puppeteers. I am saying you are wrong on some of the things. I am NOT saying you are wrong on all of the problems facing all of us.

I ask only that your mind must guide you... Lets promote equality let every person stand as equal because our intelligence allows us to do so.

lets not do this...

[Fanie]

Hello Tec0,

Lets not call it anger, because I am not an angry type of person and I don't hold grudges ( so relax ;-). Let's call it frustration if that's ok with you.

I have spent all my life helping to build up a country to what it was some 17 years ago. Now it may not have been as great as the yoof of today accuse us of and what they sit with, but we had to make do with what we had. Think a bit, I was in high school when I first saw a TV, cars were rather primitive and not so many had them. No internet, no cell phones. But - people stood together and helped each other, I miss that. There was very little crime, I could actually go fish without some serious losses and vandalism done to one's property. It was livable and there was an economy and those willing to work for a life got that.

Maybe I am not thinking as many would like me to, and I am often wrong (just ask my wife), but I can say that two thirds (66%) of people that think along the lines I do, have left SA, those I still have contact with is not interested in coming back and they think I'm retarded to still hang around here. I'm still here because there is that slim slither of hope that things will begin to make an about turn... but as you say maybe I'm thinking wrong again. I like Africa, and I probably won't move to AU or the US or EU althoug I probably can.

you have all but convinced the majority that your intentions may not be in there best interest.

Most people only want to hear what suits them. The solution to a problem is not always a pleasant one.

There are groups that are asking for social and economical equality

I saw one of the ministers expressing their concern about us not being socially involved with each other. I am aware that it was attempted, like our fishing club tried to get one other 'group' of people involved. It turned out we were expected to be accommodate, treat and pay for their outing each time. They were also undependable at our expense so we decided screw them, if they can or will not do something for themselves, then so be it. And it is still so.

Are you having the social group over for a braai a couple of times a month ? Who brings the meat ? I've met some very pleasant black people, blimey some speak better Afrikaans than many of us, but socially compatable...mmmmm I dunno. Perhaps not yet.

I don't know of any time ever there wasn't economical equality. My dad was a bank manager with Barkey's (remember that one) and he often told me of black business people that does very well for themselves. As far as I'm concerned they were treated as well as any other person in that circumstance. Their money was the same and the same worth as every one else's.

Many of the people out there sit on a street corner or with a board around his neck, hoping that work will come to him. Why don't they make it their work to find work ? If you end up in court that's exactly what they will tell you to do. Find a job. There is no shortage of work, but there is a shortage of skilled workers and even more a very big shortage of people who wants to work. No, it's much easier to ride on somone else's back and demand to get.

The other thing I wonder about is how can someone reach the age of 30, 40, 50 and cannot read properly, cannot converse properly in any one language including his own ! and have problems expressing themselvel, eh eh eh... I say if someone is too lazy to help themselves then how the heck can they expect someone else to help them ? I don't owe any one else a life, I have my own. It is up to them to make their own way and educate themselves for what they can and want to achieve. It is not my fault if someone lacks ambition and is unwilling to improve themself.

I go fish in Moz every once in a while - I don't fish in SA any more because the last 4 times we fished here we were relieved of some of our posessions, and the police were not interested. That a difference in the people between here and Moz ! Crime is like non existent, the people are friendly, they do not harrass you and they do not sit and wait to 'get'. That is why there was a record amount of people going on holiday there. It is totally a different attitude. What's wrong with here ???

BTW, last time we came back from Moz it took us 6 hours to get through customs. The problem is not Moz, the problem is here ! They had one single hardegat official at the border post, the que of people were like 3km. What is wrong with SA ! good grief man, doesn't any one think any more !

Had the same thing when we went to Swaziland, rude SA officials, 50m on 'Welcome to our country'. We have a big problem in SA.

I see many people spend YEARS AND YEARS to achieve something, only to be told by others how 'lucky' they are to have this or to have that, or have the ability to do things others does not have. And the best of all is the critics then expect to get someone's life achievements for free. A bit like taking all your possessions and give it to someone else. Have you tried that or are you not emotionally ready yet ? So why must you give away what you have achieved.

You do not help people by giving to them. If they do not earn something for themself then that what you gave them is cheap and worthless. And it is not sustainable. The first world donates billions of US$ to poor Africa, and what has become of it. Africa is as poor as it ever was, and bloody hell I don't want to spend my old age in ruins, I'll be too old for that ;-)

[Fanie]

Personally I don't care if you agree with my views or not, it seems that too many have become callous to the wrongs there are to the extent they only see and live grey. Perhaps that is why no crime in SA is serious any more - except if you steal gov funds because then it justifies shoot to kill.

If something is wrong then it's wrong, and if something is right then it's right. If something is blue, then why do you want me to lie about it :-(

[tec0]

I had a clever comeback already planned and written down because I knew more or less what was going to be stated here. But I will not use it, I see no reason too. In your mind only one factor can be blamed. You dismissed all the “factors” like a young boy age 17 Caucasian washing cars in the car park because work is none existent.

Education is irrelevant; I am highly qualified in my profession but when companies announced their new AA structure for 2011 I and 9 others knew that our beloved labour broker will not be calling again. SHAME ON US!!! Because we will not work for chicken feed, I had jobs where it cost me MORE to work then what I was paid.

I do think your thinking is incompetent, manipulative and your aim is to communicate and breed hate. There is no honour here. I do think you think your words are just, but your words are used to judge us “ALL of us” I don’t think you fully understand the shockwave yet.

Hopefully soon it will not matter. But if you would “reflect your energies” towards the guilty "the elite that is benefiting without restriction" and leave the innocent be, we have suffered enough.

[Dave A]

I'm just in awe of tec0 right now.

Fanie, I hope you're listening, really listening here.

Frustration comes from the inside...

[Fanie]

I do think your thinking is incompetent, manipulative and your aim is to communicate and breed hate. There is no honour here. I do think you think your words are just, but your words are used to judge us “ALL of us” I don’t think you fully understand the shockwave yet.

First rule of sensible communication - play the issue at hand and not the man. Don't accuse me of these things because you are way off, you have created a perception because I do not think you read my posts ! If you can pull your head from your butt for a minute and just stand back a few steps and look at this from an objective point of view.

Education is irrelevant

It is ? Well, then there should be no problems. We should have skilled people and BEE is not a requirement. In fact, the ANC should be voted out of parliament this election.

Education is VERY relevant. I'm sorry to hear that despite being so highly qualified in your profession you won't be called on again - but I'm sure you will find something to do to create future income. Unless you want to sit and wait for something to come your way ? You could perhaps play the lotto... which is about the only hope the poor in this country have to be saved out of the mystery they live in.

'Education is irrelevant'. I cannot believe you said that. Education is KEY ! We have a president that made std 8. Decisions for a what is supposed to be a first world country are made on that level. We have a Yoof leader that didn't make std 8. This is the person that is influencing our youth and that is the mentality our yooth is brought up with and the mentality of our future here. First world countries seems to choose the best qualified person to do a task to set an example. Not here, the worst seems to suffice.

The first thing students are tought at university is what are their human rights ! Not how they can make a life for themselves, not that they have to pull finger to achieve some sort of acceptable skill level.

In your mind only one factor can be blamed.

Wrong. There are a few factors that has to come together. The first is education, but with poor attitude education will not come about. There are other things too.

Unfortunately life is not this thing you achieve with one skill only. You have to be a good husband or wife or your marrage won't work. You have to be good parient or your children will have poor values and character and serve as a warming to others and not an example. You have to be good in your job to earn an income. And if either goes bad you need more education to get out of that deteriorating situation because without knowing the right things you will not be able to save the situation !
I'm supposed to do electronics, right. Right, but I quickly discovered if that is all I do I cannot survive. Too much dependance on others who are unreliable forced me to go to the troubles to learn more skills, aquire other knowledge. No, 4 5 C I didn't want to. I also wanted to learn one thing once and free the rest of my live along nice and cosy on that one thing.

Hopefully soon it will not matter. But if you would “reflect your energies” towards the guilty "the elite that is benefiting without restriction" and leave the innocent be, we have suffered enough.

If you think I have been anti-black all along, you are very mistaken.

This elite you refer to, that has aparently 'no restriction' - in my case because I think you refer to me here - is willing - no WILLING to take responsibility for ourselves. I work about 10 to 18 hours per day, and I spend a hell of a lot of time on research to gain enough knowledge on things. I am also learning another language - Portuguese. I became a welder, I design boats as a hobby, I am a radio amateur and I'm buzy with a bunch of other things. And NOT because I have a lot of money !!!!

I have to leave now, I'll post back later - unless you feel I'm just wasting time please say so because I have lots of other things I can do.

[GuyP]

1. Ownership
2. Management & Control
3. Employment Equity
4. Skills Development
5. Procurement
6. Enterprise Development
7. Socio-Economic Development

Precisely KimH.

I am now spending more time on enterprise development, socio-economic development and even determining how to reduce my carbon footprint. What I hope to give, in an involved way rather than a CSI tickbox, I find I am bound to receive on the other end by an increased ability to attract even international business because of increasingly developed 2nd and 3rd bottom lines. This may be in the way of anything from business, to international funding.

[Fanie]

I just fetched a water pump for a water filter from a place. Getting there the guy that runs the place was not there. I also wanted a filter, but the woman and the philamon there doesn't know ANYTHING. Surely if you work in a place you should know something about the products ? When I paid for the pump I gave the woman my credit card. She asks me tjeck, saving or credit card ?

I am buzy building a marine thingy here and use aluminium because it is lighter than other metals. The supplier (the one left in SA) called me to say there is no stock of the standard profile I ordered and they are not going to get new stock.

Ok, so I thought maybe I can use stainless instead if I can find someone that has a workshop, maybe they can give me an idea what options there are if I go that way. One place on my way was Noize boyz. The first guy in there ignored me, the second was a philamon I asked if someone can help me. He ignored me too, so I just left.

While driving in the car on the radio - Parts of JHB is without power, again. Farmers have decreased from 150 000 to 35 000 in SA and we are now total importers of food stuff, but those emigrating to other countries is no concern !

I also see that Vodacom is going to spend 200 million on 'branding'. We need reefs on our coast line so we can attempt to get our depleted coastal resources back up, or how about housing for the poor ? Or how about just being a phone company and give the customers better tarrifs - they don't HAVE to be 7 times more expensive than need be :-(

WTF guys ? How can any place exist and expect an increase in living standards - or at the very least maintain the current if things go as they do. We are going for a ball of crap in this country weather you like it or not. Illiterates caused the power generator near Middelburg to disintegrate by overreving it from 1050rpm to over 7000rpm. Another such an insignificant little error could see us without power indefenately, and it's not unlikely to happen. And you say Education is irrelevant ? It's not even winter yet, imagine what it's going to become like when the demand increase.

I say to you - as long as we accuse and not stand together and not resolve the issues this country is destined to become poorer than other poor african countries. You cannot stare blindly over the problems we have, they are apon us and we will have to deal with them one time or another - wether we like it or not and wether we like the sulution for it or not.

Tec0, I hope your situation gets resolved, may require some change in thinking though, but I have confidence in you to see it through. I have been in the same situation many times, it will work out.

Frustration comes from the inside...

Dave, that is utter nonsese. Frustration comes from situations going wrong and every one around you is seeming happy about it. Frustration comes when you say things others does not want to hear and the downpath continues. Frustration comes when your customer cancels an order because the BEE companies cannot deliver in time. Frustration comes when a tender date cannot be met because spares are not available untill further notice - and who pays.

And of course frustration comes from seeing the billions and billions getting throwed around without anything to show for it at the end of the day.

[tec0]

If you can pull your head from your butt for a minute and just stand back a few steps and look at this from an objective point of view.

Education is irrelevant'. I cannot believe you said that. Education is KEY !

Please don’t take my words out of context. The suggested factor was to outline how little work there really is. Secondly any person regardless of gender and race can strive towards excellence. Your views towards your own suggested truth is an attempt to mute and outline incompetence.

Thirdly our best skilled workers started out as incompetent young men with a St4 to St6 education. My grandfather started out with only St3 back in the day, you would know because it was in your time give or take 20 years.

Evkom took those young men and slowly educated them via workshops and gradual certification. Today those young men are the “greys” that keep the PowerStation’s going. The new bloods have N6 and engineering certification and they cannot compare.

Creating opportunity is the true remedy for black economic empowerment and affirmative action. With new market opportunities demand for qualified labour goes up, and even more opportunities will exist. With more opportunities comes demand and with demand a broader healthier economical spectrum will develop, thus the need for the above mentioned will no longer be relevant.

Politically I am not responsible for the leaders chosen. The object of choice seems to be antiquated still, that stated it is slowly changing. As more starts to question the motives of the faceless elite benefiting from this defective structure, change will be called for.

That said some of your blunt statement and posts has a provocative flavour. It is this type of provocation that stimulates situations that is indeed uncalled for. As I said before, I do not believe you fully appreciate the volatility of the situation nor the repercussions.

As for the Power Station that lost one of its generators, it is rumoured that it was running over 4500RPM+ they attempted to test the auto “failsafe” systems. What exactly went wrong is still under investigation. It is of note that normal RPM for such a system is 3000RPM “give or take a few”

It is also rumoured that damages and replacement cost is well over three Billion+ Rand.

Lastly, as for my situation I am a survivor as are most South Africans.

[Fanie]

I can see this is turning into a personal debate and I don't have to hear how blunt, incompetent, provocative and other things I am. Please keep your personal opinions to yourself.

I don't go by rumours and we know why the power station was destroyed. Same reason a part of Jhb was without power for like 3 months, they had to hire a private contractor to repair the problem. So many examples.

But I'm glad to hear about all the positives you mention, I'm sure we can expect an improvement coming about any time... soon ?

[Martinco]

Quote Originally Posted by KimH View Post

1. Ownership
2. Management & Control
3. Employment Equity
4. Skills Development
5. Procurement
6. Enterprise Development
7. Socio-Economic Development

Just to add my 2 cents worth......................
I am trying to stay in business which I have built up from NOTHING over 20 years.
The latest "requirement" at the mines is that irrespective of your BBBEE rating I MUST have black ownership of at least 26% which in a short time will be pushed up to 45%.
This is not "government policy" but they make their own rules. So even complying with BEE ( Level 2 and 126% ), I still cannot do business with them unless I put black ownership in place.
A bit frustrating and unfair don't you think ?