Lithium batteries in residential properties

[Isetech]

By the time the regs are finalised the the bulk of the installations will be complete.

I have seen one company boasting they have already installed 1000 solar systems and that is just one company.

There are more solar branded vehicles on the road than electrical companies at the moment.

Even in the wholeslaers there is more people buying solar related equipment than standard electrical equipment.

YOu just have to watch the stages of load shedding to see the trend of equipment sales.

With load shedding dropping to stage 1, I have already noticed a drop in enquiries and equipment that you couldnt buy 2 weeks ago now there is stock.

It makes wonder who is controlling the load shedding, the laod shedding stage goes up the the material shortage goes up.

[Dylboy]

Been awhile haha.

Anyone know when 10142-1-2 is released ?

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[GCE]

Been awhile haha.

Anyone know when 10142-1-2 is released ?

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Was released and withdrawn - I did purchase at the time and have since been refunded

There are moves again to publish but we are pushing for it to be included in SANS 10142-1

Do not see a reason to have a separate document that repeats the majority of what is already in 10142-1

[Dylboy]

Was released and withdrawn - I did purchase at the time and have since been refunded

There are moves again to publish but we are pushing for it to be included in SANS 10142-1

Do not see a reason to have a separate document that repeats the majority of what is already in 10142-1

I believe so, I tried to go on that day and it was gone.

But that is great ! Also having it in the 10142-1 means it needs to be studied for the exam for new entrants in wiremans licence.

Thanks GCE

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[Smiley]

You just have to watch the stages of load shedding to see the trend of equipment sales.

Jip, has been going on for wot, a decade(?), now.

No LS, ample stock, specials.
LS starts some cautionary sales, but still some specials LOTS of queries.
LS escalates, some urgent buying starts, the prices start creeping up. Faster if the R/$ at that time climbs.
LS goes berserk, panic buys everywhere, no stock, anywhere. Weeks/months to wait for the stock, R/$ gets worse most of the time too. People Bitch & Moan immensely ... why is there no stock!? Prices are ridiculous "they scream"!!!
Backorders for months too.

Then, the following week, LS de-escalates ... and wham, sales quiet down, and fever and fever new orders. Overstock is everywhere when the containers land. Specials start again slowly.

Now rinse/repeat that now year on year, now month on month.


Here is the thing that just makes me shake my head ... LS started in +-2007 .. that is +-16 years ago!!!

Today when people B&M about prices and stock ... bleh, sorry to hear about that. Not. Law of Transvaal much!? Now you are going to PAY!!!

Some background on my journey:
My first UPS went in 2008.
By 2012/3 I was on a DIY "solar UPS", damn it is expensive to recharge batts on Eskom(!) with a self-designed auto switchover using a Victron BMV that when the battery SOC gets to say 20%, the AC loads are switched back to Eskom.
Then when CoCT gave us a grace period to register our panels, I went grid-tied.

So yeah, "walked this talk" now for a very loooong time.

The first-ever idea of using a battery SOC to change the loads back to Eskom.
Today it is a common feature, as I mailed every big solar manufacturer at the time, asking for such a feature, in 2012.

[Isetech]

https://www.evergreenelectrical.com.au/blog/best-location-solar-battery?fbclid=IwAR2RDnISJVy5bDymuE1kGufw78eQllzt98FgBVjTZvoLb7pySRrQ2TbKVTQ#:~:text=Solar%20batteries%20can%20be%20installed,is%20out%20of%20direct%20sunlight

[Isetech]

Lets dig into this a little, and have an open discussion about it, once again refering to old outdated regulations, which I am sure are under review. Considering in some cases this would be costing the user a lot more money than reuired to instal a system.

Some would say all that is required is a 120 minute barrier.

I am busy with a project right now, where we will be installing the system in the garage and there will be a fire door fitted, because the garage is attached to the house. the otehr option would be to fit it in the "utility" room and fit the fire door to the utilty room, this room is also sealed off from the house, by a concrete slab but only has a single brick wall. I wil lsend the inforamtion to the architect and see what he says, consodering he was the one one who added the fire door to the garage, because it doint have one (that is a requirement)

Would these rules be for exposed batteries, the way they installed then back in the day, open in a dedicated room for batteries, with dangerous highly flamable gas released while charging ?

Would that mean provided you fit a fire door to the room you want to install the battery, this could be where it gets a little confusing, you wil lnotice that a garge linked to a house will have a double brick wall which goes all the way to the roof (not the ceiling)

Or could it mean the battery is fitted in a metal case with a fire rating of 120 min, using a mobile backup system as an example?

Or the cells being containned in a metal enclosure in a metal case using new wall/floor mounted lithium batteries as an example? Considering the ones we use are sealed IP 65 rated and are as heavy as hell, which would indicate that the case is pretty solid.

[Isetech]

Something else to consider is the fire esacape route, p[eople say if a lithium battery catches on fire, RUN.

It doesnt help if you fit it right next to the door which is the exit from the building or a psaage used to get out of the building.

The more I look at pics on social media and read copmments about lithium battery installtion the more I relaise how bad this problem actually has become.

Once again who is going to pay at the end of the day, not the installer who actually has no idea about where it is safe to install these battery or if they are even a safety concern.

H?ass anyone seen a video of a lithoium batterey on fire inside a house, please share it.

[Isetech]

Something I have noticed while doing research into Victron products, note the battery is never fused or isolated, maybe someone can tell us why?

https://www.victronenergy.com/upload/documents/Datasheet-Battery-Switch-275-A-EN.pdf

[Isetech]

The lynx power distributor is only fuse do nthe live condutor, anyone know why they dont fuse both, are we living in the dark ages here in SA still using regulations from back when some of us were still in puberty?

https://www.victronenergy.com/dc-distribution-systems/lynx-power-in#pd-nav-secondimage

[whoffe]

With all the talk of the fire hazard of 'lithium' batteries are we not over generalising now?

The 'old' Lithium Iron technology had cathodes that were more Cobalt based which, to my understanding, is much less tolerant of temperature and physical abuse than the Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePO4) batteries.
LiFePO4 are the bulk of the 'Lithium' batteries installed in residential backup systems today.

Lithium Iron Phosphate battery technology has been a critical advancement for Lithium based storage. The stability under physical abuse being one of the biggest improvements, the number of claimed Duy cycles has similarly increased.

Even the title of the thread does not make the distinction between different lithium battery chemistries. Hopefully the ones up high that make the regulations take these details into account when saying what is safe and what is not.

[Isetech]

Its trying to find people who know the answers to the questions, how the new regulations will affect the battery tecvhnology as it improves at such a fast pace.

Basic guidleines to make selecting the location easier than trying to source a pile of regulations and applying them to the modern technology.

This is why it is so important to discuss these issues in open forums.

One person shouting at everyone threatening legal action is certianly not going to be the solution to all these challenges we face in the elctrical industry at the moment.

The other issue I have noticed, identifying the different roles elactricians and engineers play in the industry. I believe that we as electrician should not be trying to design projects and rather stick to what we do best, the installation and testing of the project.

I dont know all the rules and will never learn all the rules, which is why it is important to let the people who study design, to do just that and the trademen should stick to doing what we do best.

At the end of the day an engineer will have to approve and sign off an SSEG, so why not get them to make sure the design is safe, then the trademen do their part (the installation), then IE and MIE's can test and verify the installation is reasonbly safe. We create a safe environment for everyone.

the confusion about who can test, well that is a discussion for another thread on its own. Should the AIA be able to sign off projects even if they have not be involved from the beginning , like an MIE or IE?

With all the talk of the fire hazard of 'lithium' batteries are we not over generalising now?

The 'old' Lithium Iron technology had cathodes that were more Cobalt based which, to my understanding, is much less tolerant of temperature and physical abuse than the Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePO4) batteries.
LiFePO4 are the bulk of the 'Lithium' batteries installed in residential backup systems today.

Lithium Iron Phosphate battery technology has been a critical advancement for Lithium based storage. The stability under physical abuse being one of the biggest improvements, the number of claimed Duy cycles has similarly increased.

Even the title of the thread does not make the distinction between different lithium battery chemistries. Hopefully the ones up high that make the regulations take these details into account when saying what is safe and what is not.